1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,480 Hello and welcome to this month's edition of Deep Roots, the Oak Hill podcast, 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,440 where we have conversations about theology and ministry. 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:11,600 My name is Tim Ward, and I have the privilege of being one of the lecturers here. 4 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:15,560 I teach hermeneutics, that's biblical interpretation and word ministry. 5 00:00:16,240 --> 00:00:17,440 My name's Eric Ortland. 6 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:19,280 I teach Hebrew and Old Testament. 7 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:23,640 We are very happy to be joined today by our friend and colleague, Andrew. 8 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:25,240 Andrew, could you introduce yourself? 9 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,600 Tell us what you do at Oak Hill, what you were doing before Oak Hill, 10 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:30,600 a little bit about yourself. 11 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,120 Sure. I'm Andrew Nicholls, at Marry to Hillary. 12 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:34,640 We've been here at Oak Hill for four years. 13 00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:39,320 I'm director of pastoral care, which means that I teach pastoral ministry 14 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,520 and I oversee the pastoral care for the college as a whole. 15 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:48,280 Before coming here, I was in pastoral ministry for 15 years in some different 16 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,320 churches down in southwest London, an Anglican church and a couple of independent 17 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,480 churches, interestingly, which were church plants from the Anglican church. 18 00:00:55,480 --> 00:01:01,400 Well, Andrew, we always begin this out by simply saying, tell us what we're going 19 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:01,920 to talk about. 20 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:07,240 Okay, well, here's the thing that has struck me that it would be really helpful 21 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:07,800 to talk about. 22 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:13,520 And it's an idea that's been growing in me in part as your action to some of the 23 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:20,520 really huge stuff that the church has been working through to do with really 24 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:28,480 really big headlines around culture, abuses of power, styles of leadership and 25 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:29,120 that kind of thing. 26 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:34,120 And so that's in the background, but it's not that that I want to talk about. 27 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:41,680 It's the idea that one of the reasons why that kind of stuff happens may be 28 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:46,880 because it's relatively hard for little things to go wrong in a way that's 29 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:47,320 healthy. 30 00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:50,760 I think in part, even to put the sentence like that raises the issue in our minds 31 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,000 that how could something going wrong being healthy be a healthy thing? 32 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:56,440 Surely a healthy church stuff doesn't go wrong. 33 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:01,000 And I think that's exactly what I want to invite us to think about and challenge 34 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,840 because I think in a healthy church, little stuff needs to be going wrong all 35 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:05,280 the time. 36 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,280 And I don't just mean the kind of the tech stuff, the PowerPoint slides 37 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,800 changing at just the wrong time, if you were going to sing the next verse at 38 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:12,240 the right time. 39 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,520 And obviously there's a point in which that kind of thing can just be irritating 40 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,480 and helpful and it's great to continue to work at it. 41 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,560 But I think I mean things like this week has been a really tough week in our 42 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,160 marriage and it's okay for me to be able to say that to somebody. 43 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:30,160 Or I really found last week's sermon difficult to hear. 44 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:33,560 And I don't know if you meant that. 45 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:35,840 And not because of my hearing aids. 46 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:36,840 Yeah, that's right. 47 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:37,320 That's right. 48 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:37,840 That's right. 49 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:38,520 It'll be fine. 50 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:39,080 It'll be fine. 51 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:43,960 And perhaps particularly because of the kind of huge sensitivity that we now 52 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,280 have about how well our leaders are doing. 53 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:48,880 And those are such important questions to ask. 54 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,240 Nothing in me is saying let's not talk about that. 55 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,920 But it means that any kind of discussion in that area feels like it's pushing 56 00:02:56,920 --> 00:03:01,200 that button and we need to try and find a way to say, yeah, that wasn't great. 57 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:02,800 And I'm sorry. 58 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:03,440 I'm sorry. 59 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:03,960 I'm sorry. 60 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:04,480 I'm sorry. 61 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:05,040 I'm sorry. 62 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:05,680 I'm sorry. 63 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:06,280 I'm sorry. 64 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:06,880 I'm sorry. 65 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:07,400 I'm sorry. 66 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:07,920 I'm sorry. 67 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:08,440 I'm sorry. 68 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:09,080 I'm sorry. 69 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,320 And thank you for pointing it out. 70 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:13,640 And I need you. 71 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:15,880 And I hope we can do better next time. 72 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,600 Without it mushrooming into a major moral issue or something. 73 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:21,240 That's right. 74 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:28,160 It's a training session by Lisa Oakley recently, and she's done a lot of work in 75 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:29,160 spiritual abuse. 76 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,040 And I found this a very helpful model. 77 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:35,840 She describes four circles to describe the kinds of things that are going on in church. 78 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:37,000 The first one is healthy. 79 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:38,840 The next one is unhelpful. 80 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:40,720 The next one is unhealthy. 81 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:42,680 And the last one is abusive. 82 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,560 And she was saying that health is great. 83 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:47,880 Hopefully we know what that is. 84 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,520 The next one is unhelpful. 85 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,120 And that happens all the time. 86 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:53,120 That's a normal thing. 87 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,120 It's a valuable thing in part because to recognise what's going wrong helps you come 88 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,320 back to healthy and avoid being unhealthy. 89 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:06,640 But even if it's unhealthy, it's really important to have a discussion about it, to recognise 90 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:07,640 it and put it right. 91 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:14,240 And those both become important ways in which you don't get the kind of the drift towards 92 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,880 things which can only be addressed because they become a crisis. 93 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:25,360 Would it be important to set some boundaries here in terms of... 94 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,720 The examples you listed were relatively small. 95 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:30,240 Yeah. 96 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,760 I found last week's sermon really difficult to listen to as opposed to I just don't like 97 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,240 the preaching in this church or something like that. 98 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:37,240 Oh. 99 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:43,800 Would that be helpful to say upfront that what we're talking about is small bumps in 100 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:50,320 the road along the way, the addressing of which can really help the culture of a church? 101 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:51,320 Yes, exactly. 102 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,200 So I think the motivation in raising them needs to be positive. 103 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,240 I'm not trying to do you down. 104 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:58,240 I care about church. 105 00:04:58,240 --> 00:04:59,880 I assume we care about church together. 106 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:00,880 We want to... 107 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,800 Let's have a constructive conversation about these things. 108 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:08,080 Let me come at it from a slightly different angle maybe. 109 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,520 A friend of mine talks about the car park conversion that Christians experience on their 110 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:12,680 way into church every week. 111 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:14,760 They've had a nightmare argument at home. 112 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:15,760 They park the car. 113 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,760 I mean, assuming you have a car park, they get off the bus, whatever it is. 114 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,960 And as they come into the door, they're all smiles. 115 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:23,040 Everybody behaves. 116 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,320 The answer to the question, how are you, is I'm fine, not... 117 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,240 We've just had a blazing row. 118 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,400 I'm not ready to listen to anything kind of thing. 119 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:37,280 And I think the kinds of issues I'm raising here are the same kinds of issues. 120 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:40,000 Can I come to church if I've had a really bad morning? 121 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,680 Is this a church that connects with people who are finding life difficult? 122 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:52,360 And relatedly, sometimes there's a prayer which is incredibly well-meaning. 123 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:57,360 Lord, please help us to leave behind the troubles of the week that we can focus on you. 124 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:01,240 And a big part of me, this is not my original idea, a big part of me wants to change that. 125 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,840 So let's never pray that for a time anyway. 126 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:04,840 Let's pray. 127 00:06:04,840 --> 00:06:09,420 Dear Lord, please help us to bring all the things of the week in, to hear your grace, 128 00:06:09,420 --> 00:06:13,280 to have help from your people, and to make sure that everything that we're doing here 129 00:06:13,280 --> 00:06:17,520 in church is connecting with life as I'm really living it. 130 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,160 I'm going to be going out there to live it again tomorrow. 131 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:20,640 And my children are still going to be my children. 132 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:21,640 My wife is still going to be my wife. 133 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,520 And my challenges at work are still going to be my challenges at work, my experience 134 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:30,120 of redundancy, and all those things that are asking huge questions of me during the week 135 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:36,480 need to be part of my engagement and relationships in church. 136 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:37,480 Let me just check. 137 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:38,480 I'm hearing you right. 138 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,440 I think I'm hearing you talk about two related things, but they're slightly different. 139 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:48,560 One of them is a culture, they're both to do with a culture in a particular church family. 140 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:57,080 One is a culture where members of the church, people who come, have permission to say constructively 141 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:02,960 critical things about the ministry they're receiving from their elders and their leaders. 142 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:09,560 And the other one is a culture in which everybody in the church family, perhaps particularly 143 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:16,760 the elders and leaders, again, have permission to be honest about how things are going in 144 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:18,760 their lives when they're not going well. 145 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:19,760 Have I got it right? 146 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:21,360 It's those two kinds of things. 147 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:22,360 Yes, absolutely. 148 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:27,600 And I think they're linked because elders and leaders need to lead in this. 149 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:33,200 It's often said, I think, rightly, that in a sense, a pastor needs to be the chief repenter. 150 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,600 And that doesn't just mean that they say louder than it'd be, I'm a terrible sinner. 151 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:41,680 It means that we hear a little bit of the detail in their life that puts color and shade 152 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,880 into what aspect of that is in their life right now. 153 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:49,200 I can't help myself having a... clearly I'm with you. 154 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,640 You're describing the kind of church that I would always want to be part of. 155 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,160 And if I'm leading, I will always want to lead. 156 00:07:55,160 --> 00:08:01,160 I mean, this is slightly provocative, but just to kind of crack one of those open a 157 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:02,160 little bit. 158 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:09,720 I've been a pastor for a number of years, as you have. 159 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:11,760 Critical emails come in pretty regularly. 160 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,760 All sorts of flak is coming your way all the time. 161 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:14,760 Not to me. 162 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:15,760 No, yes, it was. 163 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:21,480 Oh, no, I heard you were the perfect one. 164 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:28,680 I could imagine a pastor hearing that around, let's foster and create a culture where criticism 165 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:30,720 is encouraged of the ministry. 166 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:36,520 An issue reaction being, oh my goodness, I seem to spend most of my time wanting to stop 167 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,200 a culture of criticism because I just get flak thrown at me all the time. 168 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:45,760 Now, look, I know you're not necessarily talking about that, but could you just sort of tease 169 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:46,760 that out a little bit? 170 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:47,760 So what are you talking about? 171 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:49,720 What are you not talking about? 172 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:56,040 I'm sure that part of what a good leader has to do sometimes is be willing to identify 173 00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:09,880 a divisive spirit, a person who is pushing for their own agenda, a person who... the 174 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:16,160 effect of their input keeps being damaging rather than constructive. 175 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,000 We have to be willing to identify those people. 176 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,440 The Bible uses different words for them. 177 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:22,440 Avoid divisive people. 178 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,000 Don't get involved in gossip, that kind of conversation. 179 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:30,960 And even somewhere down that path, people turn into wolves and those who want to tear 180 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,520 churches apart and so on and really just have their own agenda run all the time. 181 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:41,800 So yes, this is not saying any criticism that I can possibly think of is instantly given 182 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:48,440 infallible status, but it's saying that the leaders are articulating and demonstrating 183 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:55,640 that they know they are people who are not only capable of making a mistake in theory, 184 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:57,480 but are making mistakes all the time. 185 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:58,480 We can't avoid that. 186 00:09:58,480 --> 00:09:59,900 We're not in the new creation yet. 187 00:09:59,900 --> 00:10:05,720 We remain sinful people and that comes out in the words that I say in a church meeting. 188 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,240 It comes out in the conversation that was overheard and shouldn't have been. 189 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:19,720 It comes out in all kinds of ways and a little bit of detail that you can't share everything 190 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:25,360 and one of the things we need to grow in wisdom is what are the kinds of things you can share. 191 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:29,600 But a little bit of detail so that it's evident that people who are leading, people on the 192 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:35,320 stage, people behind the microphone are willing to lead in this respect. 193 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:40,600 One thing that can help develop that different culture is a kind of dual expectation and 194 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:45,160 it's okay for the other person to say, you know, my brother or sister, I love you. 195 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,400 It's really not a helpful thing to say for these reasons. 196 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:49,920 Maybe they're reasons you don't know. 197 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:55,440 Maybe they do know, but here's why, you know, I can't take that on board and that's okay 198 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:56,440 to say as well. 199 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,440 Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. 200 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:07,120 Let me mention another possible benefit and it's something that we've talked a little 201 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:08,920 bit about. 202 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,920 I teach pastoral ministry, but I occasionally guest in other modules and it's very grand, 203 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:14,920 isn't it? 204 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:20,800 But I teach in the ethics module on the issue of abortion and one of the things that I say 205 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:25,720 there, I share my conviction that every church member should know some basic stats about 206 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:30,280 abortion and one of those is that one in three women in England and Wales has an abortion, 207 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,880 one in three, one in 30. 208 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:37,240 Now, many of the women in our churches must therefore have had an abortion. 209 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,280 It may not be close to one in three. 210 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:46,680 It may be much closer than we can know, but where is the context in church where someone 211 00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:51,400 with that in their past, knowing something of what many people in the church might think 212 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:56,320 about the wrongness of an abortion, where is the place that that could ever be talked 213 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:57,320 about? 214 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:02,640 And one of the problems with church looking quite polished and the people of church looking 215 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:07,280 really quite okay is that someone like that is either going to believe that they don't 216 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,240 belong in the church or that this bit of their life doesn't belong in church and so they 217 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:11,960 become in some sense split. 218 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:17,120 There are places where they're real, but they're not in church. 219 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:26,920 And so one of the things we discuss in that lecture with those students is if no one in 220 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:33,880 the church can know that you've occasionally lost it with your children, how can someone 221 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:40,280 share that they've done something that they in their own minds feels unimaginably worse 222 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:41,280 than that? 223 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,880 It seems like there are two aspects to this. 224 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:50,360 Tim, tell me what you think as well, both repeatedly, emphatically saying from the front, 225 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,120 from the pastor and other leaders, it's the kind of church we are, inviting this sort 226 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:55,120 of openness. 227 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,840 The two aspects you mentioned, Tim, the personal openness and the willingness to say this isn't 228 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:01,480 helpful. 229 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:06,360 And then both the leadership and individuals in the church taking the plunge and being 230 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,760 vulnerable and saying, this is who I really am. 231 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,240 And it's been my experience that can have a wonderful sort of sparking effect where 232 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:18,840 other people could say, oh, I can just saying that may not be enough for a lot of people 233 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:20,120 in the church to really start to open up. 234 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,400 But when they see someone else doing it's much easier to follow up. 235 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:23,400 Does that seem right? 236 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:24,400 Absolutely seems right to me. 237 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,880 And I and I've noticed that and I felt it and I've enjoyed it and I've relaxed and I've 238 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,560 changed the way I speak when I'm when I'm led in those kinds of ways. 239 00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:33,360 I've experienced that and it's a wonderful thing. 240 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,600 I've also experienced it in a personal conversation. 241 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,160 It doesn't have to be all up front, all on a stage. 242 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:45,640 But if if when you have those moments with a leader, you find that they are wanting to 243 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:49,640 be honest with you about what's hard in their life, it's transformative that in the way 244 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,520 you open up to them. 245 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:58,240 And again, there's a there's a carefulness about who and how you share. 246 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:04,480 But and which particular issues you say with which particular people and all kinds of reasons 247 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:11,800 for that, but that principle that the pastor clearly knows they're not perfect. 248 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:18,680 The leader, the leaders, the elders are not obviously trying to live a polished life in 249 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:23,400 front of people, but a real life that needs grace. 250 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:28,120 Because this is the this is this is what we then open ourselves to enjoy, it seems to 251 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:32,640 me, is is the grace of God that he shares with us. 252 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:37,120 And we then learn to share with one another, it transforms it deepens our relationships. 253 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,760 We grow in our sense of love. 254 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,400 One of the one of the most explicit verses that deals with this kind of territory in 255 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:48,120 James Jackson five, which talks about confessing our sins to one another, he may be healed. 256 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:49,920 It's a it's a controversial verse for all kinds of reasons. 257 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,520 But within the context of the letter as a whole, the letter as a whole is returning to 258 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,800 this issue of double mindedness and the idea of living one foot in the world and one foot 259 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,600 in the church, one foot in in looking to God for blessing and one foot in looking to other 260 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:05,960 things for blessing and and that and and then as he draws towards a conclusion in chapter 261 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,240 five seems to me he's saying, do you know this is true of you? 262 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:17,840 If it is, tell somebody, confess your sins, that you may be healed that you and and by 263 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:25,360 implication others in the church, the church grows out of our incipient double mindedness 264 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:30,520 in our understanding of grace, because the wonderful thing about James is alongside these 265 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,920 very pungent commands to stop being double minded is the promise of the grace of God 266 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,680 who draws close to us and amazingly draws close to us. 267 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,760 The more real we are with him about our sin, the closer he comes to us. 268 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,400 And that's extraordinary and wonderful to experience. 269 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,760 It's a wonderful picture of church life you're painting. 270 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:53,880 And when I mean, anybody who's experienced it or church will always be imperfect on this. 271 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,440 And if if you're a member of a church or a leader of a church where this is what folks 272 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,120 are aiming at, you're absolutely right. 273 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:00,680 That's a wonderful thing. 274 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:07,240 I'd just like to dig in a little bit or encourage you to help encourage you to dig in for us. 275 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:13,200 I doubt that anybody hearing this kind of thing is going to think no, that this is not 276 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,760 describing the kind of church I ever want to lead or be a member of. 277 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,080 We're describing a church that virtually everybody's going to find attractive. 278 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:27,400 So my hunch is if this doesn't happen, it probably won't be because the leaders in theory 279 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:28,400 don't want it. 280 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:29,400 Right. 281 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,600 There may be some who just know, no, I'm never going to know. 282 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,080 Probably most people hearing it would think, yes, I want to belong to or lead a church 283 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:43,440 that's like this, which must mean I think that when it doesn't happen, it won't be for 284 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:44,440 lack of intention. 285 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:49,340 It'll be because there are barriers and blockages that we are blind to. 286 00:16:49,340 --> 00:16:51,600 What might some of those be? 287 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,840 Well, I'm not disagreeing with you. 288 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,360 I think you're right that most people do. 289 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:02,680 And yet sometimes we are holding incompatible ideals. 290 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:13,600 So the ideal of strong leadership or even just leadership kind of implies a kind of 291 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:22,800 greatness, you know, and the idea, which is a very biblical idea, that the pastor, the 292 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,440 elders, the senior leaders in any ministry within the youth work or women's ministry, 293 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:32,040 wherever it might be, are an example to the flock. 294 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:33,520 That is critically important, obviously. 295 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:35,880 Follow me as I follow Christ. 296 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:36,880 Exactly. 297 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:42,920 That doesn't mean that the only things in which I get to set an example of things that 298 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:49,520 I do right, because watch your life and doctrine closely, persevere in them. 299 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,840 If you do, you'll save your both and your hearers. 300 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,360 But people have to see your progress. 301 00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:57,520 And that implies that they see that you're not there yet. 302 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:03,240 So leading for Timothy, as Paul instructed Timothy, was to allow people to see him grow, 303 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,520 grow in understanding and doctrine and grow in the godliness of his life. 304 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:14,000 And again, so I think there's that barrier, which is the idea that being an example means 305 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:25,320 I've arrived when really it means I need to let people see that I'm in need of growth. 306 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:34,120 I think experiences of trying and it going badly are another barrier. 307 00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:40,400 So if you try to be vulnerable, and there's some person in the congregation who takes 308 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:46,720 advantage of it, or who reminds you of it, or who sort of has an aha moment with you, 309 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:54,520 I knew you were, you know, I mean, some of us have been there, it's a very painful wound. 310 00:18:54,520 --> 00:19:00,680 And we need the grace of God to heal that and enable us to try again with somebody else 311 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:05,440 in a different context rather than just to scar up and cover over. 312 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:19,360 And I think, well, God is there to help us in just that way, I think, to be the safe 313 00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:22,120 place that others were not. 314 00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:28,920 We can go to him as a refuge, go to him with our sin, crawl back under his wings, know 315 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:33,200 the safety of his love, and then come out again and have another go at trying to enter 316 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,320 and leave the church. 317 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:43,880 One of the things that I really felt moving out of being a pastor into theological education 318 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:50,400 was that, I mean, it's kind of obvious, but I really felt it's suddenly now being a theological 319 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:58,400 educator and going to work and coming home from work meant that work was really work 320 00:19:58,400 --> 00:19:59,680 and life was really life. 321 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:06,520 Of course, for many people when they're in church ministry, maybe pastoring a church, 322 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:14,200 work and life are completely interlinked and you can't entirely tease them apart. 323 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:19,000 And I think to the looking back, as it were, if someone criticizes something I do here 324 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:24,720 at college, oh, that was a bad lecture, or that was a bad decision you made in that responsibility 325 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:29,280 you were given, that'll hurt a little bit, but I can basically go home and say, well, 326 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:34,560 I have my life and that doesn't affect it. 327 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:41,160 Any criticism of me or perceived shortcoming in me, whether it be as a Christian or a pastor, 328 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:49,080 when I'm a pastor, suddenly now you criticize one part, you're just sticking the knife into 329 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:53,520 the hole of me. 330 00:20:53,520 --> 00:21:00,800 And if I'm someone who, I'm sure I am, who would just hold a ridiculous level of pride 331 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:06,480 in being perceived by others to be good at my job, if my job and my life are utterly 332 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:07,480 combined. 333 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,800 Yeah, that's got to be right. 334 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:20,160 And so, flip it around, pastors therefore have an acute awareness of their need of God 335 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,080 as the place to take these things. 336 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:30,720 And actually, if we can learn to do that more and more, learn to find our identity, and 337 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:35,000 you know, these are not small words, and it is an area in which we need to grow. 338 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:42,240 And I felt exactly the same thing as you, by the way, giving up being a pastor and coming 339 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:43,240 here. 340 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:49,160 One of the ways in which we need to grow, I think, is our ability to take these things 341 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:50,680 to the Lord. 342 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:56,400 And when Christ calls us to follow him and take up our cross, part of what that means, 343 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:05,280 take up our cross daily, in one of the gospels, means a willingness to die for him. 344 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:10,280 And therefore, we must go to him for the grace to die for him each day. 345 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,720 And do I do that consistently? 346 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:13,720 No. 347 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,880 But the Lord in his kindness brings opportunities to me to have another go at dying for him 348 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:18,880 in a day. 349 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:26,640 And I think one of the ways in which we do that is precisely this kind of, I can't do 350 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:27,640 this. 351 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,000 I'm not up to this. 352 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,320 I want to give up. 353 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:37,560 Very early on in my ministry, I was having a little moan at somebody about being generally 354 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,360 rubbish. 355 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:43,000 And he heard quite accurately a note in me of defeat and give up. 356 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,760 He said, now, come on, brother, we don't give up. 357 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:47,680 And what he, I mean, he was quite right. 358 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:53,720 Because what I needed to hear, we keep going back to Christ to find our hope, our forgiveness, 359 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:54,720 our strength. 360 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,840 And the NF is part of the dynamic out of which we minister to others. 361 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,440 So criticism gets woven in. 362 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:06,920 And the handling of things as a pastor can leave me feeling no one is like me. 363 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,880 But it can also be the opportunity in which I discover the very things and ways in which 364 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:11,880 we are like everybody else. 365 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:12,880 Is it? 366 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,200 So can I just have one more go at this? 367 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:22,880 Is this where the this well the well-worn territory of the professionalization of ministry? 368 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,080 Does this does this play in here? 369 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:31,400 Because I think you again, just autobiographically, but I doubt I'm unique in this. 370 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,520 You know, I'm going to I am the kind of person who's always going to cherish the thought 371 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:41,320 that whatever working life I would have chosen, I would be really competent at it. 372 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,600 And everybody around me would be grateful that although it's not perfect, everyone would 373 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:45,600 recognize he's really calm. 374 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,000 Whatever line of work I would have been competent at. 375 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,960 I'd love to hear more about what some of those lines of work might have been to him. 376 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,720 Well, the world of professional golf lost out. 377 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:00,360 That was a joke. 378 00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:02,320 I was thinking Bob Dylan impersonator. 379 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:03,320 Whatever. 380 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:11,960 Yeah, he's possibly the one professional singer who sings worse than I do. 381 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:18,600 And for as long as I cherish that somehow in my mind, I'm always going to think I was 382 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:25,320 going to act like there will be some aspect of being a pastor, being in church leadership, 383 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:30,440 which has got to be some area where even though I don't want this psychologically, I'm going 384 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,720 to treat it like I'm a professional. 385 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:33,960 This is a job I do. 386 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:35,680 I am pretty good at it, I think. 387 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,680 And you all have got to agree that I'm really good at this. 388 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,720 And I'm just going to sort of ring fence that. 389 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,720 And I may in the pulpit give myself as an example of failing in godliness. 390 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,600 But I have this over here. 391 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:49,600 I have this over here. 392 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:50,600 I'm still good at that. 393 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:55,040 And if you all in the church could see this, you would be grateful for what a great pastor 394 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:56,040 I wrote. 395 00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:03,080 And as long as I'm ring fencing that, I'm probably not doing what you're recommending. 396 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:04,080 Is this just me? 397 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:05,080 Is this ringing any bells? 398 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,080 It's his ringing bells. 399 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:16,160 So, is one part of being a pastor resolving to do it, resolving to die daily to the thought 400 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,240 that I will be perceived as good at my job. 401 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:24,680 And I just have to accept and resign myself to not being a professional. 402 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,760 In the second Corinthians, Paul will talk about the mockery, the shame, the insults. 403 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,880 No one looks at any part of Paul, this magnificently talented relational man and says, oh, that 404 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:34,880 is so magnificent. 405 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:35,880 You are so talented. 406 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:42,760 He is an object of mockery and Tim, as you very well articulated, not having any part 407 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:47,400 of your life you can hold on to where everyone says, oh, they're great at that, even if you 408 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,400 are. 409 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:49,400 Yeah. 410 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:50,400 I'm sure that's right. 411 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,480 I know the tendency to think, oh, but at least I have this or I have that. 412 00:25:54,480 --> 00:26:00,080 And I might do it in a kind of diary thing, you know, at least this went really badly, 413 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,440 but at least I've got this other thing coming up or whatever it is. 414 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:09,080 And I guess as I grow more as a Christian, my instinct will be to say more, at least 415 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:14,640 I have Jesus and he is enough. 416 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:20,760 He is the place I go to for that kind of sense of comfort or reassurance or, you know, if 417 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,920 I could grow in that, that would be a lovely thing. 418 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,600 Andrew, two questions for you. 419 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:28,600 Yeah. 420 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:36,520 I was thinking as Tim, as you were talking, that maybe one help in all of this is recognizing 421 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,520 and accepting that most of us will really not be good at this. 422 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:40,520 Yeah. 423 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:41,520 We're going to be clumsy. 424 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,240 We'll keep trying anyway to be vulnerable. 425 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:49,880 But let's say someone listening is a new pastor in a church and the church has a church culture 426 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:55,840 very tightly regimented, controlled, ratcheted down, vulnerability was punished. 427 00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,000 What can the pastor do with their staff and with their congregation to help change that 428 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,320 culture slowly but perceptibly? 429 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:03,320 Second question. 430 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:04,320 That's a great question. 431 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:05,320 That's a great question. 432 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,360 Hopefully we can forget it while we listen to the second question. 433 00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:11,240 Well, well, I don't know. 434 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:12,600 Christians come in two types, I think. 435 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,800 Tim Keller talks in his book on the prodigal son, you have the prodigals and you have the 436 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:21,280 older brothers who get straight A's and never, you know, Paul says in Galatians two, we're 437 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:22,280 not Gentile sinners. 438 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,600 He was an upright, upstanding man. 439 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:25,600 Yeah. 440 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:30,040 And we have people that the sincere born again Christians in the church who, when they hear 441 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:36,360 someone get really vulnerable without meaning to, but in a way that damages the other person 442 00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:43,080 become morally outraged and they feel it's their part as a Christian to persecute a person 443 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:48,580 who's being vulnerable and they can't see that that's a violation of grace. 444 00:27:48,580 --> 00:27:51,000 We all know those people who are just such admirable Christians. 445 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,800 Well, at least I do. 446 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,200 Such admirable Christians. 447 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,880 You can see God's blessing on their lives in many ways, but I just sort of think I would 448 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,400 never confess a sin to you. 449 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,760 I know it would not be okay. 450 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:09,400 We can be friends, but I can't quite be that vulnerable. 451 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,560 Probably every church has older brothers like that. 452 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:17,680 What do you do as a church starts to open up and someone reacts badly, but with the 453 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,280 best of intentions? 454 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,200 That is a magnificent question and I have indeed forgotten the first question. 455 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,000 We'll go with the second question first. 456 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,000 Second question. 457 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:28,000 I wasn't trying to forget it. 458 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,360 It just struck me as difficult and I was listening so carefully to the second. 459 00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:34,600 Yeah, I mean, I am an older brother, aren't I? 460 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:43,220 From I'm an am actually as a matter of fact, but the ability to focus on something other 461 00:28:43,220 --> 00:28:54,640 than the extraordinary grace of God, arguably he had a point that his day to day relationship 462 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,820 with his father had been more about doing the right thing. 463 00:28:58,820 --> 00:29:05,200 And he had been unaware of how lavish the father's love for him was. 464 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,940 And in the story, as Jesus tells it in order to explain why he spends so much time with 465 00:29:09,940 --> 00:29:13,960 tax collectors and sinners who desperately need forgiveness. 466 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:20,280 You know, it is to wake us up to the lavish extraordinary grace of God that we might enjoy 467 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:21,280 it more. 468 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:22,800 We might come in and share the party with him. 469 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,360 And I suppose therefore that what is a pastor do? 470 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:31,080 Make a point of drawing attention to the grace of God over and over and over again. 471 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:38,880 And occasionally come alongside an older brother and say, how are you enjoying the party? 472 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:44,160 In a kind of a way. 473 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,360 Not not as tritely as that but in a serious, meaningful conversation about things that 474 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:54,960 are on this particular older brother's heart, hear them well, and invite them in to the 475 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:55,960 party. 476 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,120 Perhaps we need to talk about, for example, think about what that was that will be like. 477 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:01,920 But I suppose I'm thinking of a 478 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,560 Because that's exactly what Jesus does. 479 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:04,920 He's inviting the older brother. 480 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,960 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, to the party, the father in the parable. 481 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:09,880 Yeah, but sorry, go ahead, Andrew. 482 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:10,880 Yeah. 483 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,680 And you never quite get to know in the parable whether they come in. 484 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,120 And it's true. 485 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,760 The fact that such people are around is not a surprise. 486 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:25,440 And we can't write the script for the end for much as we might like to. 487 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:30,080 But you know, that story is a very powerful demonstration of the direction which God wants 488 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:31,840 to lead his people. 489 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:40,720 So we pray and we ask the Great Shepherd to keep drawing people to his grace. 490 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,120 And yeah, we're not very good at it. 491 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,240 But he's pretty good at it. 492 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,080 And yeah, in the end, he'll have to pass these people. 493 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,680 I'll quote Tim Keller again, did Keller will say you need to do apologetics with Christians 494 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,320 in the public, which I think is true, it may be helpful for pastors to remember your your 495 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:01,320 preaching to younger brothers and older brothers, your preaching to Pharisees, born again, Christians 496 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,120 who have utterly clear consciences about themselves. 497 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,760 And when they hear about young married grace, mercy and forgiveness of God, they think, 498 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,560 oh, yeah, that's great. 499 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,080 I'm okay. 500 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:16,720 We talk about something else, you know, but how I'd be interested to hear from you as 501 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:23,760 well, Tim, let's say a church was schooled in very regimented non vulnerability as godliness. 502 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:30,800 What can a pastor do with their staff and with the body as a whole to help incrementally 503 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,360 but but noticeably change the culture to a gospel culture? 504 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:40,080 I'd also have to know what let me give an example that I've sometimes used a couple 505 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,480 of times. 506 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:47,000 I helped to write this this course, which is based on wonderful stuff I'd learned from 507 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,960 from David Powelson and others. 508 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:56,280 And he helped us write this course called Real Change, which lots of people have have 509 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:57,280 used and enjoyed. 510 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,240 And occasionally, because I, my name is on the cover, I get invited to go through the 511 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,080 material over a church weekend. 512 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:10,880 And in setting those weekends up, I've sort of tried to say, I'm going to get people talking 513 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,520 in small groups about stuff that isn't going great in their lives. 514 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:20,160 And sometimes in that conversation, there's a nervousness about, I'm not sure how well 515 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:21,160 that's going to go. 516 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,080 I'm not sure we do that particularly. 517 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,280 And because I've done it a few times now, I'm able to be quite reassuring and say, look, 518 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,600 I think it'll be fine. 519 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:37,320 And what I do at the beginning of that, quite apart from helping people see promises of 520 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:42,880 God that secure our safety and promises work in our lives, I just tell a story of my own 521 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:43,880 stupidity. 522 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,320 I talk about taking out the recycling. 523 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:49,840 And I've done this at college as well. 524 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,320 I'm carrying recycling, create the lemonade bottle, falls off. 525 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,040 I've heard it three times. 526 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,360 And I'm looking forward to the fourth time next year. 527 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,040 It's a great story. 528 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,760 And I just find myself and shouting at the lemonade bottle falling on the floor and getting 529 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:03,760 really annoyed. 530 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:08,120 And I'm also conscious that I'm getting annoyed at whoever put it on the crate, the fact that 531 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:13,120 I'm the only person that ever ever empties the recycling and that bottles don't stay 532 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,040 where I put them first time. 533 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:22,600 And actually that gets to a level of stupidity because I realize that I am treating myself 534 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:27,080 as if I am the kind of being that should be able to do whatever they want to do, however 535 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,280 ridiculous the attempt first time. 536 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,120 And that really is to take God on. 537 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,200 And so I want to be like you. 538 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,840 He's the only one who gets to do exactly what he wants first time. 539 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:39,840 And I am not. 540 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,160 And in his great kindness, he won't let me become that kind of creature because then 541 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:44,920 I would think I was God. 542 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,760 And just the falling lemonade bottle says you are subject to the laws of nature. 543 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:48,760 I am not. 544 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:49,760 You are an idiot for getting. 545 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:55,920 Now I say that to myself, I don't think God speaks to me like that except full of love. 546 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,640 And it turns out if you share that example with a room full of people you've never met, 547 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,000 they've all got an example of exactly the same thing in their own lives. 548 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,060 And even if this is a church which hasn't been into this kind of conversation at all, 549 00:34:08,060 --> 00:34:11,600 because I'm laughing at myself and they're laughing at me and quite right too, and because 550 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:16,000 it's it's a it's a kind of 30 seconds that we all recognize for our own lives and we're 551 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,920 all happy to say, yes, this all happens to all of us. 552 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,880 But then to be able to say actually in this kind of very ordinary way, which is unthreatening, 553 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,040 we're doing something very significant in our relationship with God. 554 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:32,560 And we need his grace for that relationship. 555 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,000 The weekend starts well. 556 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,360 And people buzz with their kind of enjoyment of being able to have these conversations 557 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:39,440 about real life. 558 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,760 So that's one of the ways that I would say it. 559 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:49,160 That's an example of vulnerability, which both feels trivial and significant. 560 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:54,120 Tim, what would you do if you were a pastor for church and you you wanted to change the 561 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:55,120 culture? 562 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:56,120 What sorts of things would you do? 563 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:57,520 I agree with what Andrew says. 564 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,280 I think I'd want to start being open about my own. 565 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:05,560 I mean, you're talking about about my own spiritual failings about how being very clear, 566 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,640 I'm a spiritual work in progress. 567 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,440 You know, live with me as I progress. 568 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:15,120 So I hope I'll be a more godly pastor for you than I am in 10 years time. 569 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:16,120 Fine. 570 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:17,120 And I think that's right. 571 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:22,560 I mean, if a church is really kind of bottom down, it can be quite a step from, OK, shall 572 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:27,160 we just now start being open about our struggles in life and our spiritual failings? 573 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:28,920 You want to get there. 574 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,040 One thing that occurs to me, and as you mentioned, the staff team, maybe if the church is big 575 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:40,360 enough to have a staff team, one place it starts maybe is just being openly relaxed. 576 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,480 About things going wrong in the life of the church. 577 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,800 I mean, Andrew, right at the beginning, you mentioned, you know, the PowerPoint's not 578 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,400 working for the songs or whatever it is. 579 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,960 And that wasn't and you want to talk about deeper things than that. 580 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,280 And that's of course, right. 581 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,760 But maybe one step towards people being open with what's going wrong personally in their 582 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:07,960 lives and in their life in Christ could just be we are wonderfully relaxed and forgiving 583 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,480 about when someone messes up. 584 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:16,320 You know, it's that, you know, if I'm the pastor at the front leading the service and 585 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:21,840 the person running the AV didn't show up 30 minutes before the service, but five minutes 586 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,960 before the service, and this service is going to look incompetent to many of the people 587 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:27,240 there. 588 00:36:27,240 --> 00:36:28,240 And I might. 589 00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:35,520 And what's going on in my head is consciously or subconsciously, I'm going to look incompetent 590 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:42,360 because he felled up because he couldn't get out of bed in time. 591 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,320 What how do I then respond? 592 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,280 It's in those it's in those moments. 593 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:53,920 I hope I've been shaped to be in this by the example I had in the past. 594 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:59,160 I was a junior member, a junior member of a staff team of a church and the senior leader 595 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,780 of the church, at least as I experienced him, was exemplary in this. 596 00:37:02,780 --> 00:37:09,720 He seemed to me to be omni competent and he would delegate jobs to people of the staff 597 00:37:09,720 --> 00:37:13,320 team and you do the job as best you could. 598 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:17,760 And probably there were times people give jobs which he could have done better himself. 599 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:24,840 And my experience was that he when things went well, he publicly praised the person 600 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,960 who led the ministry when things didn't go so well. 601 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,560 He took the flak publicly. 602 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,120 That was my experience of serving with him. 603 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,760 And just that openness of it didn't go well. 604 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,480 There you go. 605 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:41,480 God's sovereign. 606 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,680 We're not omni competent. 607 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,880 Just to find out, I was hearing recently of someone who leads the music ministry in a 608 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:54,280 particular church and this person is a massively talented, hyper trained musician, could be 609 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:55,280 a professional musician. 610 00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:00,520 You know, and they spend a lot of time with a bunch of amateurs who show up late. 611 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,360 And the description that someone who's in the music team here gave me of this ministry 612 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:11,840 was, he sets really high standards, really pushes people to be the best they can. 613 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,920 And then when they foul up a bit and don't quite play it right in the service itself, 614 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,880 he's totally relaxed and laughs with them about the mistakes afterwards. 615 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,220 And it doesn't matter. 616 00:38:22,220 --> 00:38:26,280 And that seems to be an example of, let's be the best we can for the Lord. 617 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:32,200 But I just want to set an example of, I don't have such an inflated view of myself that 618 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,000 if you make me look bad, I don't care. 619 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:37,000 I don't care. 620 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:45,040 And God has a wonderful track record of doing great things out of foul ups. 621 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:49,240 And I think I might just stop when things go wrong in the church. 622 00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:52,840 We're just going to laugh and we'll pray that God will bring good things out of it. 623 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,600 I hope that no one listening thinks we're just talking about applying the gospel. 624 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,440 We are talking about that, but it's something more. 625 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:07,800 It's a pervasive atmosphere that colors every service and every relationship. 626 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:14,980 That is the atmosphere of heaven itself and the heart of God for his people. 627 00:39:14,980 --> 00:39:20,040 And it's so much more than just applying God's grace or something like that. 628 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,200 Culture is the sort of thing that is everywhere present. 629 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:29,040 And we feel and taste and smell it all the time, but it's very difficult to define precisely 630 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,440 or quite put your finger on, but it's always there. 631 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:38,120 And small but incremental changes can just have massive ripple effects in terms of what 632 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:43,600 it's like to be in the building with these other Christians in the most beautiful ways. 633 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:44,600 Exactly right. 634 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:45,600 And that's a really helpful thing to hold onto. 635 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,320 I think perhaps I have at least partially remembered your first question, which is about 636 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:57,600 what if church has been really straight jacketed into invulnerability? 637 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:04,880 And I think one thing to seek God's grace to avoid is to be cross with them. 638 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,280 If you're trying to lead them into something different, it's incredibly easy to get that 639 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:09,280 way. 640 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:13,000 But as you just said, Tim, the kind of irritation that may be as closely related to a sense 641 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:21,040 of my failure as a pastor than genuine desire to know that whole streams of psychotherapy 642 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,480 are built on the idea that we are simply the product of our upbringing. 643 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:30,400 And it's easy in wanting to disagree with that, to lose the idea that a very large part 644 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,200 of who we are is a result of our upbringing and the way we were taught to live and what 645 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,880 we thought church should be and how you're supposed to get converted in the car park 646 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:39,520 on your way into church. 647 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,840 And it takes a lot if someone's lived in that kind of church for 30 years, they're not suddenly 648 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:50,200 going to they might see something they like about a pastor who speaks differently. 649 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:55,840 But they might not have a clue how that would have any connection with the way they answer 650 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:57,960 the question when they arrive in church. 651 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:04,400 You've got to be willing to be in it for the long haul and you genuinely got to seek the 652 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:10,000 grace of God to respond with that servant heart, however far you get in however long 653 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:11,000 you've been there. 654 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:16,720 And you may need to be willing to lose church members don't want to go to church that has 655 00:41:16,720 --> 00:41:18,040 that kind of vulnerability. 656 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:19,920 Yeah, do not want that. 657 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:20,920 Yeah. 658 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,080 This has been a tremendous discussion. 659 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:24,240 I've lost track of the time. 660 00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:28,720 I'm just going to ask John, our tech guy, John, how long have we been going for? 661 00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:29,720 40 minutes. 662 00:41:29,720 --> 00:41:30,720 40 minutes. 663 00:41:30,720 --> 00:41:36,400 So we got a couple more minutes if we need them for folks watching and listening. 664 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,680 That was just a little break in the fourth. 665 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:45,120 What's going on behind the experts behind the exactly. 666 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:46,120 That's right. 667 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,760 I said, John, it's actually John and John, John and Jonathan. 668 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:53,280 Anyway, Andrew, any last couple of minutes, any ways in which you just like to land this 669 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:54,440 for us things we have to address? 670 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,920 Do you think we need to ways of grounding it? 671 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:04,000 Well, one way would be, I suppose, to look for a lemonade bottle in your own life. 672 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:05,800 I can put it that way. 673 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,400 What's the thing that you're going to find yourself doing at the next 24 hours, 36 hours, 674 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,000 48 hours that is just a normal part of life? 675 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:21,360 But if you were able to stand back and stop and think about you say, that's odd in someone 676 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,440 who thinks what I think about the sovereignty of God or the grace of God or whatever it 677 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,040 is, you know, that doesn't really make sense. 678 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:33,640 And a little thing like that that you could share with one other person. 679 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:38,440 It just reveals the depth reveals the depth of ongoing sin in our lives. 680 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:39,440 Yes. 681 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:40,440 So I wasn't really going for that. 682 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,160 I suppose I was just going for the existence of. 683 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:43,160 Okay. 684 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:50,480 You know, that in in I've if you were to say to me what what does it look like in your 685 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,800 life at the moment that I'd have something to say? 686 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:53,800 Yeah. 687 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,640 And I think to know what that is and to talk about that with the Lord and then to find 688 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,720 one other person to begin talking about that. 689 00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:03,440 That would be a really good way to begin landing this and see how it feels and choose that 690 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,400 person well and choose someone else and see how that goes. 691 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,080 Thank you so much for being with us, Andrew. 692 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:09,080 This has been superb. 693 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:10,080 Great to talk to you guys. 694 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:11,080 It's a powerful things. 695 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:16,320 Actually, I tell you what, I don't think we've ended with prayer before, but it feels like 696 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,880 that would be really good to do. 697 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:20,880 I need prayer in this. 698 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,200 We'll do folks listening, watching in. 699 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,000 Well, Andrew, could you pray for us always? 700 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:26,000 Yeah, I'd love to. 701 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:31,160 I'd if I thank you so much for your grace, which is so much more wonderful than we are 702 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:32,160 usually aware of. 703 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,680 And thank you for those moments when you break in and you surprise us again with the reality 704 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:37,400 that your arms are wide open. 705 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,200 You've you've run out of the house towards us. 706 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:44,160 You've prepared an amazing party for us that being recipients of your grace, being people 707 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,640 that you love is just so much more wonderful than we imagined. 708 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:56,960 And I pray we'd be willing to see something of the sin in our own lives, that you'd reveal 709 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:04,080 that to us in order that we may find your grace more, more lovely and more sweet and 710 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:09,520 more precious and more worth sharing so that we might be willing to speak about the things 711 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,200 in our own lives, not because we're great examples of knowing what's wrong in our own 712 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,080 lives, but because we have a great God who's just so kind to us. 713 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:24,800 And I pray that this kind of way of thinking and loving and so on could bear root in my 714 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:29,840 heart and in Tim's heart and in Eric's heart and in all our hearts because we need you 715 00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:35,800 and we need to be willing to be people who say that we need you because we know it's 716 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:42,880 true and we're aware of that need in every moment, not just for occasional big things, 717 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,080 but in every moment of our lives. 718 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:50,280 Thank you that this is exactly the work that your spirit is at work to do and that we have 719 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:54,600 every hope that tomorrow we'll have progressed in these things more than we have today. 720 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:55,600 In Jesus' name we pray. 721 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:56,600 Amen. 722 00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:14,880 Amen.