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Hello and welcome to the Deep Roots podcast. I'm Matt Bingham. I teach here at Oak Hill College.

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I'm joined here with my co-host Tim Ward who also teaches here and together we are joined by our

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faculty colleague Dr. Sydney Tooth. Sydney, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much Matt,

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it's great to be here. Now Sydney, you're choosing the topic that we're going to get into. Tell us

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what the topic is. Yes, so hopefully we're going to be talking about eschatology, which we'll get

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into what that means in first and second Thessalonians. Okay, now why that topic? Well,

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Tim, that is what I did my PhD research on and I have not had much chance to talk about it during

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my time at Oak Hill so I thought it's time to myself. We're on. Better do it now. And everybody

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who's ever done a PhD is utterly convinced the topic they did is the most important topic in the

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whole world. That's what happens isn't it? That's exactly how it works. Where'd you do your PhD?

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I did my PhD up in Edinburgh at the University of Edinburgh. Can I say that's the very best place

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in the world to do a PhD? All the best people have done that there. Yes, absolutely. Great. Now

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just tell us a bit about yourself because you've been here at Oak Hill a year. A year, yep. Yeah,

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I've been at Oak Hill a year. I am not originally British if you can't tell from my accent so I

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grew up in Texas in the US. Studied part of my undergrad degree there, came on a study abroad to

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St Andrews in Scotland and if you've ever been to St Andrews it sort of captures your heart and

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never lets you go so I stayed in Scotland. And freezes you to the spot. Freezes you, yeah, so

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various ways it keeps you there. Did my undergrad in St Andrews and then did a year with UCCF doing

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their relay program. Met my Scottish husband and went on to do my master's and PhD and have just

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stayed forever. Fantastic, we're very glad you have and drag your Scottish husband down here to the

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deep south. Yes, yeah, yeah, dragged him down. We're glad he's come. First off, if anybody's

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just scrambling for the dictionary, eschatology? Yes, eschatology has to do with end times things

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and so it's from the Greek eschatos which just means the end. So what does end times things

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mean? Things like when Jesus returns, final judgment, the ultimate destination of Christians

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and non-Christians as well. So all those sorts of things are covered by eschatology. So your PhD

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was on eschatology and Thessalonians but more specifically than that, what was the,

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where did you focus that research? Sure, so one of the reasons I wanted to get into eschatology and

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first and second Thessalonians was actually started back in my undergrad when I was in charge of

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leading a student bible study and for some reason that I still to this day can't remember, I decided

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first and second Thessalonians would be a great thing to go through in a student bible study and

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I would be leading these and so week on week prepared, you know first Thessalonians not too

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bad, get second Thessalonians chapter one, okay, chapter two comes and everything fell apart

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and I had no idea what I was doing and so that was my sort of first. Because for those who don't

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have instant recall, there's some tough stuff in chapter two right? There's a lot of really mysterious figures

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and no one really knows what to do with it and honestly there's really not, there certainly

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when I was looking through it there was not much lay level help for it and I would say probably

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even today there's not much either. Okay I actually had a crafty look in a couple of my

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Thessalonians commentaries this morning and there's a section in chapter two of two Thessalonians where

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I was gratified to find, you probably know this, a footnote from Augustine in the city of God

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where he goes I have no idea what this is about and if he doesn't know what hope the rest of us.

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Yes absolutely. Okay so you're in this student bible study and it's not going well in Thessalonians too.

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Yeah, yeah so I must have muddled my way through somehow and gotten something out of it but when

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it came time to choose my topic for my PhD proposal, my PhD supervisor had done some helpful work with

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me on it and part of choosing a good research topic is figuring out what you do and don't want

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to read and I knew I wanted to do Paul and I knew I didn't want to do Romans and Galatians and

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first and second Thessalonians sounded good and I had in that background my experience with it

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wanting to really get to grips with it and understand it so it feels like quite a biographical

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thing for me to continue with and I hope I understand it better now.

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Great, have you ever preached or talked through Thessalonians?

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I have not preached or taught through Thessalonians. It does come up though doesn't it? It raises

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particular issues and is it not the case that there's particular eschatological terms and

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concepts that only appear in the Thessalonian correspondence or primarily show up there?

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A lot of the terms you'll find across the New Testament and so there's one term the Perusia

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which is just a Greek name for Jesus coming back is how it gets used. That shows up elsewhere in

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the New Testament. One figure in 2 Thessalonians 2 is called the Restrainer and that is a unique

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figure in the New Testament and I think that's the one Augustine says I must confess I have no

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idea who Paul is referring to. There is also the man of lawlessness who usually people just equate

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with the Antichrist but actually the term Antichrist doesn't appear in Thessalonians at all. That's

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from the Johannine epistles so yeah lots of stuff going on. I guess to answer your question what I

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did more specifically in my PhD there's a lot of debate within scholarship but it seeps out into

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ministry as well about if these two letters are consistent because in 1 Thessalonians sort of the

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tone you get from what Paul has to say about when Jesus comes back is it's going to be sudden,

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it's going to be a surprise, no one's going to know and you get to 2 Thessalonians and Paul

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goes through these steps of things that happen before Jesus returns and so the day of the Lord

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can't have happened because all these other things haven't happened either and so it's how do you

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reconcile the two of those. Okay so that's a fairly basic issue is scripture contradicting itself here.

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Help us into that what's the way for someone to think that through? I think if you come firstly

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with the theological conviction that scripture isn't contradictory that gives you some good

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guidelines for working out things that look contradictory actually how do I bring those together.

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In scholarship I couldn't quite approach it that way but personally theologically that

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is something I wanted to work out for myself. What was really helpful and what came out in my work

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is that if you look across the New Testament that same tension is found in other sections of the

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New Testament between the time of Jesus's return is unknown but here's signs ahead of it coming as

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well and so I titled my thesis suddenness and signs because that is a tension in you'll find it in

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Matthew 24 Mark 13 and some in Luke 21 there's some of it in Revelation so in all these other

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sections that have bits about eschatology that seems to be a common theme and so for me that

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really helped to bring the two letters together is they're like two sides

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of something you see elsewhere in the New Testament. Yeah and is that tension between

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signs and suddenness is that tension primarily coming out where first Thessalonians is kind of

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leaning one way and second Thessalonians leaning the other or is it that also within first

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Thessalonians and within second Thessalonians you see kind of both themes emerging? Yeah they tend to

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lean one way or the other so first Thessalonians does really if you just take it on its own it

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really does feel like it's going to be a really sudden thing however with the caveat that Paul

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doesn't actually say it's about to happen tomorrow or anything he sort of says it's

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sort of he makes some statements about we who remain at his return at his coming so he in himself

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feels that because he's the one he's still alive if Christ comes back while he's still alive that's

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the camp he's going to be found in but he doesn't specifically say at that point it's going to be

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in five years and he's going to come back and this is exactly how it's going to be.

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Second Thessalonians they're in the background there's some sort of issue among the Thessalonians

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about thinking that the day of the Lord has come there's some sort of confusion about that and so

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in that for that reason Paul is then at pains to show why that can't have happened whereas in

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first Thessalonians the focus is really on the hope of that future coming that it brings.

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And so looking forward to that and I think that's where a lot of the tension comes is just different

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pastoral aims of the two letters as well. Okay okay so getting a sense of the particular issue

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Paul is addressing going to help us understand what his message is. I mean could you spell out

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a bit more of that so in your understanding what what are the particularities of the

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pastoral issues he's addressing in each letter and then help us a bit with what then he's trying to

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say about them. Yeah in first Thessalonians in chapter four he talks about

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not grieving like those who have no hope and goes on to talk about sort of what happens to

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fellow Christians who have died before Jesus returns. There's some debates about whether

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the Thessalonians actually knew about the resurrection of other believers because we're

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not sure how long Paul was actually with the Thessalonians kind of teaching them how much

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doctrine he could have covered in that time. The book of Acts mentions that he taught in the

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synagogues in Thessalonica for three consecutive Sabbaths. That doesn't mean he was only there

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for three weeks but he does it seems like everything we have he faced some opposition

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there had to leave really quite dramatically and quickly and that leaves all sorts of questions

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for this really young new community of Christians. Among which is some questions about what

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happens when Jesus is coming back what happens to people who die before he comes back. Okay

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so there's some sort of question about the fate of those who have died and so it's a very

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it's a letter seeking to provide comfort to grieving Christians and which is usually that

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tends to be the context chapter four gets preached in is often either funerals or you'll see it on

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headstones or things like that. It is an incredibly comforting passage that's not the goal of second

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Thessalonians as much there's some different stuff going on there. Okay so just help us a bit though

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if that's the kind of situation Paul's speaking into I mean I'm picking up that you're saying

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we probably can't know with total certainty what the particular concern of the Christians is in

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one Thessalonians but you sort of sketched out this general area. Yeah I think I think we can

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know enough to say it's something to do with what happens to Christians in one Thessalonians

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to Christians who have died and what does that how do we live our lives in light of that. And

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so what is Paul basically wanting to say to them eschatologically? Yes I think he says two things

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I think he says for those who have died there is hope because they're going to be resurrected

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on the day Jesus returns. Yeah and anyone who's still alive will be transformed in that day too

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okay which goes with first Corinthians 15. So that's what he says in terms of comforting them.

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I think he also lays down a challenge at that point in chapter five he talks about being on

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guard. Right. So in light of the fact that Jesus is coming back and it will be at a moment you

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don't know when he's coming back. Yeah. Live life in light of that stay awake be on guard.

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It's the same verb that gets used in the Garden of Gethsemane for when Jesus asks his disciples

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to keep watch. Yeah. Keep watch for Jesus coming back. Great so that's one Thessalonians.

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Could you do the same thing for us with letter number two? Yeah. What do we know about what's

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going on among these folks and how does that explain what Paul says that feels a bit different?

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Absolutely yeah. In second Thessalonians there is a very strong presence of they're facing some sort

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of persecution. You get that in chapter one and the language used there is of trials tribulations.

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They're definitely being opposed. It seems there's hints of that in first Thessalonians.

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It seems to have gotten worse since then. So I think most people see that as fellow

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fellow countrymen who aren't believers either verbally persecuting or keeping them out of

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public space. There's something going on there where they're feeling pressure and feeling I think

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probably lacking some confidence in their faith because Paul then goes on to just affirm them of

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God's ultimate judgment that it's guaranteed and that there's this really great line where he does

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some word play where he's like those who are afflicting you will be afflicted and you who are

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afflicted will receive rest. Okay yeah. So that's part of it is whatever's happened which probably

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was why Paul had to leave so suddenly in the first place. It's just gotten worse for the Christians

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in Thessalonica. At the same time in chapter two Paul mentions some sort of rumor that has gone

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around and he seems to not know where it's come from whether it's been a letter or a prophecy or

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something's happened where some people are thinking the day of the Lord has arrived.

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And it's hard to unpack that because what does it mean for someone to actually think the day of the

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Lord has come? It's maybe helpful to talk about the day of the Lord as a term a little bit.

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That's taken from the Old Testament, the prophetic books talk about the day of the Lord

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as a moment of God's intervention, his rescue of his people and a moment of judgment as well. It

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has two sides to it. Paul uses that term really commonly in his letters when he talks about Jesus

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coming back. It's the day of the Lord, the day of the Lord Jesus. So some rumors gone around that

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the day of the Lord has come and it's hard for a lot of people to understand how people could have

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believed that but there's been a lot of work done about... Yeah that doesn't seem like a...

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Have you ever come across a whole bunch of Christians who just go around going,

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the day of the Lord has already happened? Well I mean it is interesting isn't it when you think

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about the history of the church and you think about... As you often do. I often sit and think

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and ponder such things and we should. And you know eschatology I mean of course has had this

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really potent hold on people hasn't it? It always has been a subject of fascination and maybe some

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of speculation. I don't know maybe that's partly what Paul is responding to because we've seen

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whether it's groups in the 19th century or more recently Harold Camping if you're familiar with

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him in the United States. So he actually predicted... It's ringing a slight bell help me out.

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Yeah had a following in the United States predicted that the end of the earth was going

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to happen. Christ would return on a particular date made these prophecies these predictions

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and then when it didn't happen there were all sorts of creative ways in which it was revised

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after the fact to say well actually it did happen but it was... I'm not familiar with the details

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but it would happen in a spiritual sense rather than a literal sense. I think you always have these

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people who are fascinated with eschatology and they find there's always ways to sort of

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retroactively say well actually my prediction did come true this did happen it wasn't the way you

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expected it to happen but it did. So I mean in some sense it doesn't surprise me to think that

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in the first century there would be people who could come up with the idea that actually the day

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of the Lord has taken place and I think we still see examples of that and so Paul is then writing

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into that kind of... In terms of dating for these epistles what's the kind of consensus view

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on the gap between and maybe that opens up I mean obviously New Testament studies there's

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lots of presuppositions in play about authorship and about what the New Testament documents

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represent does that impact the dating and the gap between these two and I mean there's a whole...

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Yeah and that confuses me because there's a commentary that like when I preached through

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this is a long time ago now I still have the commentary on my shelf I can remember finding it

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helpful Wannamaker and the is it a New Testament Greek I think he thinks two Thessalos is the first

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before one Thessalonian which gets slightly mind you reverses them oh in terms of okay yeah one is

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two and two is one yeah I think he's one of the only ones who does that but okay right he does

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um yes this plays into why I wanted to look at the letters um so from a purely scholarly

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side of things there's a huge debate about authorship um everyone agrees Paul wrote

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first Thessalonians that is not up for debate every once in a while someone tries to say

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didn't but no one takes that so that's consensus and I think most people think it's his first

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letter and possibly the first book of the New Testament in terms of when it was written so um

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I think most people date it somewhere 49 to 50 AD while he's in Corinth on his visit to the

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his first visit to Corinth um so he's in Corinth for 18 months after his sort of hectic journey

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through Thessalonica and Athens and then stays in Corinth so most people think that's when he wrote

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first Thessalonians uh second Thessalonians is possibly the most debated in terms of authorship

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among Pauline scholars in the sense that there is no clear consensus and it's pretty much half and

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half think Paul wrote it and half think he didn't a lot of it's tied to eschatology so a lot of it's

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tied into this idea that the two letters are contradictory right the same person couldn't

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help couldn't have consistently believe both things yeah um there's some other issues there's

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some really close literary parallels between the two where he where there's literally

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identical phrasing and people think oh it's someone just copying what Paul said to make it

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look authentic and some people say second Thessalonians has a heart which I've always felt like

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that whenever I come across that that feels like the most desperate argument for people who want

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to hold on to Paul didn't write this it's it's yeah my argument for why Paul didn't write this

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is it sounds really like Paul it seems like a really bad argument yeah um other there's

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other people say it has a different tone so second Thessalonians is harsher and more authoritarian

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those are the general arguments about it and so I didn't want to get fully into that in my thesis

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but I did want to tackle the eschatology side of things and be kind of yeah are these contradictory

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okay here's ways to bring them together and so because of that authorship people if they say if

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Paul didn't write it it's quite late in the first century however I have four scholars like me who

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think Paul did write it most of us would say very quickly after first Thessalonians who within the

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same some have said within weeks some say maybe a few months down the line as news comes back to

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him because he sends Timothy off to visit them and Timothy comes back to see him and he's like

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um Timothy comes back says well things are really bad you need to write another letter to deal with

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this um so those who do think Paul wrote it most of us would say within the same time frame so

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they're possibly the two earliest letters we have if they were written so close together I think

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that can explain the similar phrasing to um where he's just he's got the same phrases in his mind

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and um the tone can very easily be explained by a very big crisis coming up I mean I've certainly

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changed my tone when I need to quickly deal with something um so yeah that's in terms of authorship

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that's sort of that's the main debates and and I I think most commentaries actually think both were

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written by Paul and there's you'll find a few that don't agree but for the most part commentaries

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tend to have that it's when you get into other scholarship that you find the debates okay so

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even among unbelieving scholars yeah there's a consensus problem yeah yeah okay so this so

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this is really helpful we were into so the one Thessalonians Paul has a strong sense on

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this coming it'll be unexpected and you're low and you're saying that's explicable by

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the particular pastoral issue he's addressing that there's just grief and concern over Christians

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who've died and Christ hasn't come back yet and what will happen to them and he's is it that he's

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wanting in one Thessalonians is it that he's wanting to give them a sense of there's a certainty that

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he's coming back he just is it's going to be unexpected but it is certain is that kind of

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where he's is that where he's kind of erring pasturally I think so yeah I think he's really

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wanting to give them that certainty and and hope in the midst of grief for Christ is coming back

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and and those who have died aren't going to miss out on that okay great now we were we've gone

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today with a lot of stuff really helpfully because we were we were doing the same kind of thinking

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but now in relation to two Thessalonians and you're saying Paul sounds different on eschatology

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because a different situation and I was finding that really interesting because I was kind of

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expecting someone this this is a compliment not a criticism I was kind of expecting that someone

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who'd done a PhD on it would would finally explain to me who the restrainer is and what exactly their

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misunderstanding over the day of the Lord was so I could now preach this with great confidence

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and you're kind of saying we sort of know the general territory but but we don't sure so take

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us back to what what they might they be misunderstanding about the day of the Lord in the two Thessalonians

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situation yeah so this is I'm not sure everyone's going to agree with me on this so this is this is

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my this is my own personal thoughts on it I think they took from first Thessalonians that there was

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a difference between the Perusia so Jesus is coming and the day of the Lord and so they saw the Perusia

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as Jesus coming to save them so Perusia is this Greek word or translated coming return of Christ

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yeah that's that's yeah that's it and so they see this term and they think that's when Jesus comes

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and saves us and day of the Lord because of the way it's talked about in first Thessalonians five

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is very centered on judgment that's the whole passage is basically about on the day of the Lord

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believers will not escape okay and so a moment of judgment and so the reason I think that is because

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that is one way to take the day of the Lord from some of the prophets it is in some of the prophets

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it is solely about destruction and so you could see how the Thessalonians could potentially

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misconstrue that or if someone decided they'd had a prophecy explaining first Thessalonians to mean

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that because I think what he then does in second Thessalonians is links the two completely together

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right so these Thessalonians in two Thessalonians they think is this right they're thinking something

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like well Perusia hasn't happened because we have not seen Christ return Perusia clearly not happened

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yes but have they if there's something they're seeing that to them looks like an act of judgment

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from God so that's what I think that has happened yeah that's what I think and that's what a few

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very influential scholars think so they started me off on that path and including influential

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scholars here presently I a few articles point to some things that were happening in that region

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of the world and kind of in the 48 to 50 time frame it some ancient historians talk about that

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as particularly tragic years lots of earthquakes and famine and a lot going on there's different

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events that could have happened that could have made someone think this is the day of the Lord

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and I think one reason people who don't think Paul wrote it think it's quite late is they

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associate the destruction of the temple with yeah that's the only thing I was wondering

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that is that enough to be the end of the world yeah however if you if you think to a very

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pressurized situation with people thinking about what's we're hoping in the day of the Lord and

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we're hoping in the Prussia and we're looking out for signs of it it is possible that something

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that we maybe you know thousands of years down the line think compared to everything

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else going on isn't that big a deal it could have felt very I'm going to use the phrase

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apocalyptic dramatic it could have felt like that very easily to someone and I'm not saying

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all the Thessalonians believed this but it could have been a big enough faction and that happens

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and that happens all the time doesn't it big stuff happens to people this is the end of the world

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well I know yeah and I'm wondering too about the the time and the distance in the in the location

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you know so if I mean people point oh the destruction of the temple obviously that's

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a huge event that is much discussed but if I'm over in that part of the world in Thessalonica

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the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem I don't know it's maybe it's not the case but it's not

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obvious to me that that's going to be at the top of my radar in in the first century context and

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maybe some more local event would mean much more to me and to my family than this event happening

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elsewhere yeah I don't know is that does that but you're saying there are people who do want to link

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it in some way yeah some people want to stretch in the temple the destruction of the temple I

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think because there's like temple language happening in second in chapter two talks about

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the man of lawlessness sitting in the temple and so they associate that with um the space the

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spasian who goes into destroys the temple and so they see that as that okay but you don't think

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you need to go there I don't think you need to go there could be just local stuff in Greece yeah

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that's really helpfully clear on the kind of situation Paul may might be addressing

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just help us with how does that explain why he now in terms of the solution he presents

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how does that explain how he sounds different from how he does he wants us alone as he emphasizes

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emphasizes certainty and suddenness to Thessalonians he starts talking about signs that you'll see

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beforehand why why does he give that different response to this different problem in the two

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Thessalonians situation yeah I think I mean I think it has a lot to do with restraint to use

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the vocabulary of it is um giving some clear guidelines around these things have not happened

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and in at one point I think it's two verse five he says as I told you when I was with you

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this so I mean that's why some of it's just lost to us about what actually he said to them and

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and what happened I I can make my confident assertions but we don't ultimately know what

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we don't ultimately know what previous knowledge he's drawing on and so some of it is just he's

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he's going back to he I'm sure he would have told them some about the end time scenario

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so some of these figures would they just would have known who he was talking about

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but he's he points back to them to be like remember I told you these things

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and so this this rumor you're hearing doesn't line up with what I told you

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right okay so think back to what I told you and hold on to that don't get don't get like

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off course from okay I don't know about you but like this is really helpful the kind of

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the kind of feel I'm getting is help me if this is all in the right kind of lines

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sounding like in one Thessalonians it's a fairly basic issue they've got people are dying

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it is Jesus going to come back and make it all okay for them or are they lost now how do we know

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it's that sense it's kind of really basic in two Thessalonians they they've gone beyond

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eschatology 101 that you know they're doing kind of hyper eschatology they're making

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distinctions well there's a perusia the appearing and we don't think that has happened but that's

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the thing that they're the Lord they're kind of divining eschatology a bit more thinking harder

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about it and in order to deal with that kind of more detailed misunderstanding Paul there just

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brings in a lot more detail about events you might want to look out for that just weren't needed

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he didn't have to he didn't have to talk about that yeah to sort them out in the one Thessalonian

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situation as I say that's sounding quite is that too simplistic or something like that

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I think that's a good summary I think I would just want to add to that which I don't think I said is

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I still think there is a comfort aspect to second Thessalonians I think okay I think it's I think

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he's writing to the majority who don't necessarily think the day of the Lord has happened but have a

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lot of questions about it because there's this group saying the day of the Lord has happened

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so part of it is like refuting that claim but I think in chapter one he spends a while just

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reassuring them that they will be saved they will be with Jesus they will and so I think

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compared to first Thessalonians it's more about they will be your your relatives your friends who

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have died they will be with you when Jesus comes they are not lost I think second Thessalonians is

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more about the day of the Lord hasn't happened and Jesus's return hasn't passed you but it's

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it's it's not failed to show up okay well they think it has passed them by because potentially

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some local events that was of great significance has got some of them saying hey maybe like

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this was it salvation hasn't I think that I think that's okay and and presumably then Paul

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through his messengers he knows about this rumor he knows what they're thinking he knows if there

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is a local event that's prompted this he knows what it is and he knows some of the detail and now

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he's going to speak into it do you think that that but but we don't know what he knows do you think

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that that gap between what he knows about their context and we don't know just reading the letter

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do you think that helps explain some of why some of those passages in second Thessalonians especially

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have proven so difficult and feel so obscure because we're only hearing on one side of the

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conversation as it were yeah yeah definitely um I I am not surprised people struggle with

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second Thessalonians in particular I think it's a harder one to get from the historical

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into the theological takeaways what does it mean for us today I do think that's a harder

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jump for a lot of people because it feels it feels obscure and it's it's it's it's it's

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a lot of us aren't comfortable with reading apocalyptic literature I think of I don't know

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if this is the case across the board but certainly the joke is about the book of revelation that

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people only ever preach on the letters to the churches and nothing else in the book or they

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only spend time on all the symbols and stuff and so I think just generally we have a harder time

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with apocalyptic literature because we're not used to being taught how to read it and so I think

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that's part of the problem I a minute or two ago I just held you back from telling us more about

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the man of law so in the second letter man of lawlessness and the restrainer help us out yeah

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um these are my best guesses because I again I think this is where the evidence points but I'm

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not positive um so you think the restrainer for me I found a little easier um I think

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Paul is drawing on should I read the verse or do you know if by heart well maybe you probably do

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you probably do just being polite so we're in probably because we're in some detail here

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we're in so in two Thessalonians chapter two and now you know what is holding him back

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let's talk about the man of lawlessness what's holding him back so that he may be revealed at

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the proper time for the secret power of lawlessness is already at work but the one who now holds it

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back will continue to do so till he's taken out of the way um so uh that bit what holds him back or

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the one who holds him back is the restrainer is how you translate the greek verb there so the one

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who restrains and the restraining force um or how to think of those um so there's a lot of questions

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there's a lot of questions about what's happening there who's holding back the man of lawlessness

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who seems to be I think the way we think about an antichrist figure is probably accurate for

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that even without using the terminology I think he's based on a sorry I'm jumping back to the man

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of lawlessness I think the man of lawlessness is based on a lot of jewish history so it's based in

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Daniel um the um abomination of desolation sort of language and and this king who sets himself

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up against god and everyone so back to uh what's his name Antiochus Epiphanes yeah yes Antiochus

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Epiphanes um who who in um kind of the time between the old testament and the new testament

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comes in and um conquers Jerusalem he's a um syrian ruler comes in takes over Jerusalem and

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desecrates the temple yeah yeah so Daniel points forward to that um we have some writings

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called the Maccabees that also talk about what happens there and so he's the he's the sort of

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like our uh is archetype the right word that he's he's the original figure who demonstrates this

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just absolute prideful yeah yeah setting himself up against god and then you have a roman general

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called Pompey who comes in and similarly desecrates the temple in Jerusalem um he is often referred to

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as the lawless one in some of the jewish writings is he the pig sacrificing guy have I got

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I just saw when I was reading went in a sacrifice deliberate provoked sacrifice to dig on the altar

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in the temple yeah I should know that but oh I don't know who it is but so it's this kind of

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character that people these really upset people have done yeah so again this political ruler who

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comes in and um just really desecrates right the holy place yeah yeah yeah um see he he he'll get

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referred to a similar language from Daniel sometimes as well that's interesting um

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um then you move down the timeline and one of the roman emperors Caligula has this plan

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in the 40s not known as a nice guy is he Caligula I'm remembering that um yeah not a nice guy um and

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he has this plan in right around 39 to 40 AD to go send a statue to Jerusalem that gets set up

365
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in the holy place in the temple in Jerusalem and there is great outrage over this among the

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jewish statue of himself okay yeah of himself I think in the style of portraying himself as

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Zeus so portraying himself as God set up in the temple sounding a little familiar to second

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Thessalonians here um but it's I think what you have there is just this train of these rulers who

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set themselves up against God and and desecrate what is holy right so I think Paul's drawing on

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that language to point towards an sort of eschatological end time opponent of some sort

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and that's about as much as I think you can get there but he's saying to the Thessalonians

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that figure hasn't shown up and arrived I told you about that figure he's not shown up so that's

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that's the first thing you haven't the man of lawlessness hasn't been revealed is the language

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Paul uses um he and he'll say the mystery of lawlessness is still at work so lawlessness

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happens and it's seen in this whole pattern across the centuries of people doing evil things

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but the sort of central figure of lawlessness that's empowered by satan himself hasn't

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appeared yet okay so that's why it then turned it gets read as anti-christ in the following

378
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centuries right so okay so if I'm putting the piece together so even though these awful disasters

379
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have happened around you which makes you think the day of the lord has happened and are worried that

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salvation the appearing has passed you by no salvation has not passed you by because final

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salvation will only come after this final man of lawlessness figure has come and been revealed been

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like made obvious done his worst and everybody knows what's happening yeah that's that's kind

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of the argument is it from that's what Paul's wanting to say yeah yeah and I think this is

384
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where it gets hard for interpreting is I I mean honestly I haven't quite worked out how best to

385
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:50,960
talk about the man of lawlessness figure I'm not I'm I'm working on wrapping my head around how that

386
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:56,720
how we think about and talk about that today but I think what I am confident about is that's the

387
00:40:56,720 --> 00:41:06,800
pattern Paul's pointing to is prideful evil turned against God okay and he uses that as a he uses

388
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:13,760
that to say that will be defeated the moment Jesus appears is the moment the man of lawlessness is

389
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:21,760
killed and so again you get that hope right coming in yeah yeah um sorry I was talking about the

390
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:26,400
restrainer and went on to the man of lawlessness no that's so good but Paul also says the reason

391
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:31,120
he's not appeared this man of lawlessness or he's not been revealed is because he's been restrained

392
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:38,000
yeah by something and that's I think one commentary says there's like 10 different

393
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:46,960
interpretations of who the restrainer is um it was it was very popular some of the early church

394
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:54,720
fathers thought it was the Roman Empire so the rule of the land law and order kept evil in check

395
00:41:54,720 --> 00:42:03,040
until this final moment um so you do get a lot of that more common today you've got to feel quite

396
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:07,120
positively about the Roman Empire yes well yeah that's part that's part you're overlooking quite

397
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:14,640
uh-huh okay yeah um more common today is to actually see it as a supernatural angelic

398
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:21,600
figure and that's rooted if we go back to Daniel it's rooted in some of what happens in Daniel in

399
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:29,120
the same sections is um you have different angels who are over different earthly empires

400
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:36,320
and the archangel Michael is over the nation of Israel he's with the people of God and in chapter

401
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:45,680
12 it says um when Michael arises um lawlessness such as has never been seen before and never will

402
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:51,920
be seen again comes but kind of at that moment God's people will be saved and his enemies will

403
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:57,600
be destroyed and then you get a promise of resurrection at that point too and that all

404
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:03,600
feels very similar to what's happening across the Thessalonian letters and so a lot of people will

405
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:11,600
then say actually I think the restraining figure is probably Michael and he is holding he's he's

406
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:17,760
God's agent to hold back yeah the full expression of lawlessness until God's appointed moment so

407
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:26,400
God's in charge of it all but he's at some point Michael's gonna be he's gonna remove himself or

408
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:31,920
God's gonna remove him from the scene and and the final drama is all gonna play out

409
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:41,760
that that's a fascinating spiritual perspective on the world now isn't it yeah absolutely and um

410
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:46,320
just Sydney you mentioned kind of history of interpretation of this this is obviously generated

411
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:54,480
all sorts of um speculative uh exegetical solutions to this problem just wondering as you as you think

412
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,880
about that and you think about what New Testament scholars are doing today to what extent do you

413
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:05,520
think I mean is this is this one of these things where um can two Thessalonians two sort of um

414
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:12,000
solve the the problem or or a lot of these differing exegetical interpretations are they coming out of

415
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:18,080
other precept positions people bring to the text larger kind of hermeneutical ways of thinking about

416
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:24,240
eschatology and and how the Bible fits together um in other words do you think if if we're going

417
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:29,600
to understand this is you know can we can we just sort of exegete the text on its own and this is

418
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:35,760
this is what Paul means or or is it really a matter of um larger questions about how we put

419
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:42,160
our Bibles together and how we understand these bigger pieces of uh theology and eschatology

420
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,600
it's a complex question that um

421
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:55,120
um I think a lot of my experience is working with just pure historic people historically want to

422
00:44:55,120 --> 00:45:02,560
wanting to understand what did Paul mean exactly what did he mean and not then taking that next

423
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:10,240
step to how do we move from that into preaching or teaching or exhortation and I think that's

424
00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:16,320
that's kind of I'm finding myself in a place of trying to make that next step off of I've done

425
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:23,440
the historical work and then relating it to theology um I think that's one of the things

426
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:28,240
I really enjoy about KIL is bringing the two together and being able to start thinking about

427
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:34,880
I think good historical work is incredibly important and I think it's it's vital to be

428
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:41,840
working at what influences could be behind this how does that open up the text what what might

429
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:47,200
have been happening but I don't think that's the end of the story for us either and I think

430
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:50,480
it's taking that step from

431
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:59,280
here's exactly what Paul wrote into here's how it impacts us as Christians 2 000 years

432
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:06,640
down the line um I feel like I didn't answer that very well no one of the things it raises to me is

433
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:11,520
just here having this conversation hearing you unpack different pieces of it um here you know

434
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:16,960
you reference the Augustine quote um about some of these questions and you recognize the one about

435
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:21,280
I have no idea what I don't yeah yeah you know you're you're confronted with this and I'm just

436
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:26,560
thinking um if we're thinking about moving from kind of uh historical questions okay what did

437
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:31,760
Paul mean in in when he wrote this and now we're thinking about preaching and we're thinking about

438
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:36,160
teaching in the local church it does raise the question doesn't it if I'm trying to proclaim

439
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:43,200
God's word to God's people and I come to the text and and I'm I'm genuinely despite my best prayerful

440
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:50,000
efforts oh yeah I'm genuinely puzzled as as to what this means uh what do I do with that and how

441
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:55,760
do I take that as a faithful herald when I'm not sure what I'm meant to be here you could feel

442
00:46:55,760 --> 00:47:02,000
really unnerved yes something just saying like yeah I was going I was planning to do a talk series

443
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,960
for the church youth group through one or two Thessalonians and I just assume that after my

444
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:12,080
study I'm going to have a good idea of who the man of lawlessness is of who the restrainer is

445
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:18,560
of just precisely what the misunderstanding yeah the pause in each case was and I thought I'd be

446
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:23,120
able to get answers to those questions in a few hours uh study and some good uses and good

447
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:31,840
commentaries and here is someone who spent years on a PhD on it going yeah that could sound unnerving

448
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:39,120
couldn't it absolutely and when it's you know Thursday and Sunday's come in this this is a

449
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,440
real existential moment you you preach through uh first and second Thessalonians you're saying

450
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:53,920
a long time ago so don't ask me to recall it okay yeah I think I think this is where I I accept my

451
00:47:53,920 --> 00:48:03,440
limitations as a human and I I think it's a really helpful exercise in remembering that God is bigger

452
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:11,040
than us and his word is bigger than us and and if if that's enough to take away from this I think

453
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:15,760
that's a good start I think you can take some theological principles out of second Thessalonians

454
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:24,640
and I think when when I seek to teach it um I some key things I like to focus on is um just the

455
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:32,400
message of peace across all three chapters of it is there's a constant resting in the fact that

456
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:38,640
God will make all things right in the end um whether you're facing persecution whether you're

457
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:48,880
dealing with um rumors of war and other things or whether you're dealing with chapter three

458
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:54,640
um church members who maybe aren't fully pulling their weight and there's various things but every

459
00:48:54,960 --> 00:49:01,600
one of those chapters ends on a note of confidence in who God is and um that he will make all things

460
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:08,080
right that evil will fully be defeated in the end and so those those for me are the like heartwarming

461
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:16,240
refreshing takeaways and and I will be um speaking on the second Thessalonians very soon and when I

462
00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:26,560
come to do that that's what I'm focusing on God's victory over evil God's peace now and ultimately

463
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:32,800
those those are the takeaways whether you know exactly who these figures are I ultimately do not

464
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:40,160
I ultimately do not think that matters I think it's fun to think about if you have time and but

465
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:45,600
it's not something I would ever want someone to feel stressed or worried about that's huge that I

466
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:50,480
find I find that hugely helpful that resonates with something actually Augustine says in um in

467
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:55,840
non-christian teaching addressing the question why are there apparently obscure parts of the

468
00:49:55,840 --> 00:50:00,480
bible and he may well have had this one in as an example in mine and one of his answers is it's

469
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:05,760
to humble us that these are the things of God that are being spoken of here and we will never fully

470
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:10,720
understand what I like about very much about just thinking of preaching bible studies in my will

471
00:50:10,720 --> 00:50:16,080
like about what you very much about what you just said is you may not understand every detail but

472
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:23,120
that nevertheless there is a very clear message here about a very particular set of issues in our

473
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:28,880
lives that we can address and can speak into from this yeah I find that really helpful

474
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:34,400
can I ask this have you spent all this time in one two Thessalonians and you began by saying look

475
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:41,280
some some people alleged there's just a straight contradiction between them one is makes no mention

476
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:46,000
of signs before the end suddenly Jesus comes the other is here are the signs to watch for so you'll

477
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:52,000
know he's coming and you I very helpfully said well if someone thinks that's a problem here

478
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,520
actually they've got a much bigger problem because that's an issue right across the new testament

479
00:50:55,520 --> 00:51:02,400
across the new testament as you put all that together as you as a believer yourself look into

480
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:08,560
the future what do you where do you want sort of the centre of gravity to be for you is it

481
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:14,720
I'm not I'm not reading the times I'm not looking for signs it'll come any he'll come any moment

482
00:51:14,720 --> 00:51:22,080
or is there a sense of no I know it can't be yet because such and such hasn't happened so how do

483
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:26,960
you how do you locate yourself just as a believer yourself in that yeah I guess for me personally

484
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:37,520
I almost want to say both like there's there's a really good helpful reminder that the Lord is

485
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:44,960
coming back and that that impacts every single decision I make every single day and and I'm to

486
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:53,360
keep watch and behave in line with my faith and and that's that's a really helpful grounding

487
00:51:53,920 --> 00:52:03,520
thing that I do think about a lot I I think having studied this a lot I'm I'm quite happy to

488
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:08,560
leave it to God's timing I think the danger is becoming almost complacent and well he's not

489
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:12,720
come for 2 000 years so probably not going to happen anytime soon so I think for me it's

490
00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:19,680
probably a better reminder of he is coming and that makes a difference every day

491
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:28,560
great thank you very much any more questions yeah I think I mean I think it's it's interesting

492
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:35,600
there's that tension between um he's he's coming soon it could come at any moment um but there's

493
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:39,920
these I mean there's that tension the other tension that this conversation raises for me is um

494
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:46,400
um again it's so we have these passages we have these references um there's some difficult things

495
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:52,560
in here um greater interpreters than any of us have found them difficult uh Peter says that some

496
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:56,480
of the things Paul writes are hard to understand right we've got that on the one hand and I think

497
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:01,920
there's it's interesting because you you find yourself sometimes uh in talking to people in

498
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:07,600
church stuck a little bit between wanting to emphasize that and say hey you know what this

499
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,720
is hard we probably won't understand it there's more here this is deeper than we're ever going

500
00:53:10,720 --> 00:53:16,560
to go in this life on the other hand you find yourself wanting to encourage people but we

501
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:22,720
should be thinking deeply about God and the things of God and and in these verses about the the

502
00:53:22,720 --> 00:53:28,400
lawless one being revealed or every bit as inspired as as passages with which we're more familiar

503
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:34,080
and people like yourself are spending lots of time and energy trying to think about this and

504
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:39,440
think deeply about this and so finding that tension between on the one hand saying hey um there's a

505
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:44,640
sense in which you know you don't need to be losing sleep if you can't put all the dots together

506
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:50,240
perfectly on the other hand not wanting to suggest to people hey you don't need to worry about this

507
00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:55,360
it's crazy don't you know don't pay it any mind you know and living in yeah and striking that

508
00:53:55,360 --> 00:54:01,360
balance I think is is is tricky but um there's that famous quote and I can't remember who it's

509
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:05,360
from and I think it was talking about John's Gospel but I think it applies as much today of

510
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:12,000
God's word is shallow enough for a duck to paddle in but deep enough for or shallow enough for a

511
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:19,200
duck to walk in but deep enough for an elephant to wade in and that that you can always get more

512
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:26,160
out of it but it also yeah whatever level you're at that's a helpful quote Gregory the first one

513
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:31,520
I think would be great is he the first one on that you know I've heard that I've heard that I've heard

514
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:36,480
different people I've heard it with different animals sometimes it's a the sentiments there

515
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:44,480
it's a mix and match quote you get big animal little animal excellent final thing uh for folks

516
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:49,920
in ministry top commentary tips on Thessalonian letters this is a popular level I'm gonna throw

517
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:56,640
in John Stott's BFT I think that's I haven't spent much time with that one so I'm not sure he just he

518
00:54:56,640 --> 00:55:02,160
obviously the stuff he doesn't get into but he just packs so much into that it's hugely helpful

519
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:10,000
it's a great one I think yeah um Nijay Gupta has a recent one in the who was that Nijay Gupta okay um

520
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:18,240
in the I think it's called the new covenant commentary series um which is is at a lay level

521
00:55:18,240 --> 00:55:25,360
um but he's incredibly well versed in Thessalonians if if someone's wanting a more complex

522
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:32,800
but still overview yeah Nijay Gupta also has what's called um a critical introduction to

523
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:40,720
first and second Thessalonians by Zondervan and um that is just an amazing resource that I've

524
00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:47,520
recommended to everyone who wants to get a view of what's been said on all these fantastic do you

525
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:53,360
Greek to understand that uh there are sections of Greek but most of it you don't need Greek

526
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:59,600
great so and that's sort of a next step up from brilliant thanks Sydney that was really fascinating

527
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:03,920
just hugely helpful on some real historical details but showing how we need to think about

528
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:08,960
those and how building on that we get to some real sort of pastoral practical conclusions to

529
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:14,320
and helping us steer through what we know and what we don't know um we trust that this deep

530
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:30,240
roots podcast has been a blessing to you and we'll be back in a month's time see you then