Hello and welcome to the Deep Roots podcast. I'm Matt Bingham. I teach here at Oak Hill College.
I'm joined here with my co-host Tim Ward who also teaches here and together we are joined by our
faculty colleague Dr. Sydney Tooth. Sydney, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much Matt,
it's great to be here. Now Sydney, you're choosing the topic that we're going to get into. Tell us
what the topic is. Yes, so hopefully we're going to be talking about eschatology, which we'll get
into what that means in first and second Thessalonians. Okay, now why that topic? Well,
Tim, that is what I did my PhD research on and I have not had much chance to talk about it during
my time at Oak Hill so I thought it's time to myself. We're on. Better do it now. And everybody
who's ever done a PhD is utterly convinced the topic they did is the most important topic in the
whole world. That's what happens isn't it? That's exactly how it works. Where'd you do your PhD?
I did my PhD up in Edinburgh at the University of Edinburgh. Can I say that's the very best place
in the world to do a PhD? All the best people have done that there. Yes, absolutely. Great. Now
just tell us a bit about yourself because you've been here at Oak Hill a year. A year, yep. Yeah,
I've been at Oak Hill a year. I am not originally British if you can't tell from my accent so I
grew up in Texas in the US. Studied part of my undergrad degree there, came on a study abroad to
St Andrews in Scotland and if you've ever been to St Andrews it sort of captures your heart and
never lets you go so I stayed in Scotland. And freezes you to the spot. Freezes you, yeah, so
various ways it keeps you there. Did my undergrad in St Andrews and then did a year with UCCF doing
their relay program. Met my Scottish husband and went on to do my master's and PhD and have just
stayed forever. Fantastic, we're very glad you have and drag your Scottish husband down here to the
deep south. Yes, yeah, yeah, dragged him down. We're glad he's come. First off, if anybody's
just scrambling for the dictionary, eschatology? Yes, eschatology has to do with end times things
and so it's from the Greek eschatos which just means the end. So what does end times things
mean? Things like when Jesus returns, final judgment, the ultimate destination of Christians
and non-Christians as well. So all those sorts of things are covered by eschatology. So your PhD
was on eschatology and Thessalonians but more specifically than that, what was the,
where did you focus that research? Sure, so one of the reasons I wanted to get into eschatology and
first and second Thessalonians was actually started back in my undergrad when I was in charge of
leading a student bible study and for some reason that I still to this day can't remember, I decided
first and second Thessalonians would be a great thing to go through in a student bible study and
I would be leading these and so week on week prepared, you know first Thessalonians not too
bad, get second Thessalonians chapter one, okay, chapter two comes and everything fell apart
and I had no idea what I was doing and so that was my sort of first. Because for those who don't
have instant recall, there's some tough stuff in chapter two right? There's a lot of really mysterious figures
and no one really knows what to do with it and honestly there's really not, there certainly
when I was looking through it there was not much lay level help for it and I would say probably
even today there's not much either. Okay I actually had a crafty look in a couple of my
Thessalonians commentaries this morning and there's a section in chapter two of two Thessalonians where
I was gratified to find, you probably know this, a footnote from Augustine in the city of God
where he goes I have no idea what this is about and if he doesn't know what hope the rest of us.
Yes absolutely. Okay so you're in this student bible study and it's not going well in Thessalonians too.
Yeah, yeah so I must have muddled my way through somehow and gotten something out of it but when
it came time to choose my topic for my PhD proposal, my PhD supervisor had done some helpful work with
me on it and part of choosing a good research topic is figuring out what you do and don't want
to read and I knew I wanted to do Paul and I knew I didn't want to do Romans and Galatians and
first and second Thessalonians sounded good and I had in that background my experience with it
wanting to really get to grips with it and understand it so it feels like quite a biographical
thing for me to continue with and I hope I understand it better now.
Great, have you ever preached or talked through Thessalonians?
I have not preached or taught through Thessalonians. It does come up though doesn't it? It raises
particular issues and is it not the case that there's particular eschatological terms and
concepts that only appear in the Thessalonian correspondence or primarily show up there?
A lot of the terms you'll find across the New Testament and so there's one term the Perusia
which is just a Greek name for Jesus coming back is how it gets used. That shows up elsewhere in
the New Testament. One figure in 2 Thessalonians 2 is called the Restrainer and that is a unique
figure in the New Testament and I think that's the one Augustine says I must confess I have no
idea who Paul is referring to. There is also the man of lawlessness who usually people just equate
with the Antichrist but actually the term Antichrist doesn't appear in Thessalonians at all. That's
from the Johannine epistles so yeah lots of stuff going on. I guess to answer your question what I
did more specifically in my PhD there's a lot of debate within scholarship but it seeps out into
ministry as well about if these two letters are consistent because in 1 Thessalonians sort of the
tone you get from what Paul has to say about when Jesus comes back is it's going to be sudden,
it's going to be a surprise, no one's going to know and you get to 2 Thessalonians and Paul
goes through these steps of things that happen before Jesus returns and so the day of the Lord
can't have happened because all these other things haven't happened either and so it's how do you
reconcile the two of those. Okay so that's a fairly basic issue is scripture contradicting itself here.
Help us into that what's the way for someone to think that through? I think if you come firstly
with the theological conviction that scripture isn't contradictory that gives you some good
guidelines for working out things that look contradictory actually how do I bring those together.
In scholarship I couldn't quite approach it that way but personally theologically that
is something I wanted to work out for myself. What was really helpful and what came out in my work
is that if you look across the New Testament that same tension is found in other sections of the
New Testament between the time of Jesus's return is unknown but here's signs ahead of it coming as
well and so I titled my thesis suddenness and signs because that is a tension in you'll find it in
Matthew 24 Mark 13 and some in Luke 21 there's some of it in Revelation so in all these other
sections that have bits about eschatology that seems to be a common theme and so for me that
really helped to bring the two letters together is they're like two sides
of something you see elsewhere in the New Testament. Yeah and is that tension between
signs and suddenness is that tension primarily coming out where first Thessalonians is kind of
leaning one way and second Thessalonians leaning the other or is it that also within first
Thessalonians and within second Thessalonians you see kind of both themes emerging? Yeah they tend to
lean one way or the other so first Thessalonians does really if you just take it on its own it
really does feel like it's going to be a really sudden thing however with the caveat that Paul
doesn't actually say it's about to happen tomorrow or anything he sort of says it's
sort of he makes some statements about we who remain at his return at his coming so he in himself
feels that because he's the one he's still alive if Christ comes back while he's still alive that's
the camp he's going to be found in but he doesn't specifically say at that point it's going to be
in five years and he's going to come back and this is exactly how it's going to be.
Second Thessalonians they're in the background there's some sort of issue among the Thessalonians
about thinking that the day of the Lord has come there's some sort of confusion about that and so
in that for that reason Paul is then at pains to show why that can't have happened whereas in
first Thessalonians the focus is really on the hope of that future coming that it brings.
And so looking forward to that and I think that's where a lot of the tension comes is just different
pastoral aims of the two letters as well. Okay okay so getting a sense of the particular issue
Paul is addressing going to help us understand what his message is. I mean could you spell out
a bit more of that so in your understanding what what are the particularities of the
pastoral issues he's addressing in each letter and then help us a bit with what then he's trying to
say about them. Yeah in first Thessalonians in chapter four he talks about
not grieving like those who have no hope and goes on to talk about sort of what happens to
fellow Christians who have died before Jesus returns. There's some debates about whether
the Thessalonians actually knew about the resurrection of other believers because we're
not sure how long Paul was actually with the Thessalonians kind of teaching them how much
doctrine he could have covered in that time. The book of Acts mentions that he taught in the
synagogues in Thessalonica for three consecutive Sabbaths. That doesn't mean he was only there
for three weeks but he does it seems like everything we have he faced some opposition
there had to leave really quite dramatically and quickly and that leaves all sorts of questions
for this really young new community of Christians. Among which is some questions about what
happens when Jesus is coming back what happens to people who die before he comes back. Okay
so there's some sort of question about the fate of those who have died and so it's a very
it's a letter seeking to provide comfort to grieving Christians and which is usually that
tends to be the context chapter four gets preached in is often either funerals or you'll see it on
headstones or things like that. It is an incredibly comforting passage that's not the goal of second
Thessalonians as much there's some different stuff going on there. Okay so just help us a bit though
if that's the kind of situation Paul's speaking into I mean I'm picking up that you're saying
we probably can't know with total certainty what the particular concern of the Christians is in
one Thessalonians but you sort of sketched out this general area. Yeah I think I think we can
know enough to say it's something to do with what happens to Christians in one Thessalonians
to Christians who have died and what does that how do we live our lives in light of that. And
so what is Paul basically wanting to say to them eschatologically? Yes I think he says two things
I think he says for those who have died there is hope because they're going to be resurrected
on the day Jesus returns. Yeah and anyone who's still alive will be transformed in that day too
okay which goes with first Corinthians 15. So that's what he says in terms of comforting them.
I think he also lays down a challenge at that point in chapter five he talks about being on
guard. Right. So in light of the fact that Jesus is coming back and it will be at a moment you
don't know when he's coming back. Yeah. Live life in light of that stay awake be on guard.
It's the same verb that gets used in the Garden of Gethsemane for when Jesus asks his disciples
to keep watch. Yeah. Keep watch for Jesus coming back. Great so that's one Thessalonians.
Could you do the same thing for us with letter number two? Yeah. What do we know about what's
going on among these folks and how does that explain what Paul says that feels a bit different?
Absolutely yeah. In second Thessalonians there is a very strong presence of they're facing some sort
of persecution. You get that in chapter one and the language used there is of trials tribulations.
They're definitely being opposed. It seems there's hints of that in first Thessalonians.
It seems to have gotten worse since then. So I think most people see that as fellow
fellow countrymen who aren't believers either verbally persecuting or keeping them out of
public space. There's something going on there where they're feeling pressure and feeling I think
probably lacking some confidence in their faith because Paul then goes on to just affirm them of
God's ultimate judgment that it's guaranteed and that there's this really great line where he does
some word play where he's like those who are afflicting you will be afflicted and you who are
afflicted will receive rest. Okay yeah. So that's part of it is whatever's happened which probably
was why Paul had to leave so suddenly in the first place. It's just gotten worse for the Christians
in Thessalonica. At the same time in chapter two Paul mentions some sort of rumor that has gone
around and he seems to not know where it's come from whether it's been a letter or a prophecy or
something's happened where some people are thinking the day of the Lord has arrived.
And it's hard to unpack that because what does it mean for someone to actually think the day of the
Lord has come? It's maybe helpful to talk about the day of the Lord as a term a little bit.
That's taken from the Old Testament, the prophetic books talk about the day of the Lord
as a moment of God's intervention, his rescue of his people and a moment of judgment as well. It
has two sides to it. Paul uses that term really commonly in his letters when he talks about Jesus
coming back. It's the day of the Lord, the day of the Lord Jesus. So some rumors gone around that
the day of the Lord has come and it's hard for a lot of people to understand how people could have
believed that but there's been a lot of work done about... Yeah that doesn't seem like a...
Have you ever come across a whole bunch of Christians who just go around going,
the day of the Lord has already happened? Well I mean it is interesting isn't it when you think
about the history of the church and you think about... As you often do. I often sit and think
and ponder such things and we should. And you know eschatology I mean of course has had this
really potent hold on people hasn't it? It always has been a subject of fascination and maybe some
of speculation. I don't know maybe that's partly what Paul is responding to because we've seen
whether it's groups in the 19th century or more recently Harold Camping if you're familiar with
him in the United States. So he actually predicted... It's ringing a slight bell help me out.
Yeah had a following in the United States predicted that the end of the earth was going
to happen. Christ would return on a particular date made these prophecies these predictions
and then when it didn't happen there were all sorts of creative ways in which it was revised
after the fact to say well actually it did happen but it was... I'm not familiar with the details
but it would happen in a spiritual sense rather than a literal sense. I think you always have these
people who are fascinated with eschatology and they find there's always ways to sort of
retroactively say well actually my prediction did come true this did happen it wasn't the way you
expected it to happen but it did. So I mean in some sense it doesn't surprise me to think that
in the first century there would be people who could come up with the idea that actually the day
of the Lord has taken place and I think we still see examples of that and so Paul is then writing
into that kind of... In terms of dating for these epistles what's the kind of consensus view
on the gap between and maybe that opens up I mean obviously New Testament studies there's
lots of presuppositions in play about authorship and about what the New Testament documents
represent does that impact the dating and the gap between these two and I mean there's a whole...
Yeah and that confuses me because there's a commentary that like when I preached through
this is a long time ago now I still have the commentary on my shelf I can remember finding it
helpful Wannamaker and the is it a New Testament Greek I think he thinks two Thessalos is the first
before one Thessalonian which gets slightly mind you reverses them oh in terms of okay yeah one is
two and two is one yeah I think he's one of the only ones who does that but okay right he does
um yes this plays into why I wanted to look at the letters um so from a purely scholarly
side of things there's a huge debate about authorship um everyone agrees Paul wrote
first Thessalonians that is not up for debate every once in a while someone tries to say
didn't but no one takes that so that's consensus and I think most people think it's his first
letter and possibly the first book of the New Testament in terms of when it was written so um
I think most people date it somewhere 49 to 50 AD while he's in Corinth on his visit to the
his first visit to Corinth um so he's in Corinth for 18 months after his sort of hectic journey
through Thessalonica and Athens and then stays in Corinth so most people think that's when he wrote
first Thessalonians uh second Thessalonians is possibly the most debated in terms of authorship
among Pauline scholars in the sense that there is no clear consensus and it's pretty much half and
half think Paul wrote it and half think he didn't a lot of it's tied to eschatology so a lot of it's
tied into this idea that the two letters are contradictory right the same person couldn't
help couldn't have consistently believe both things yeah um there's some other issues there's
some really close literary parallels between the two where he where there's literally
identical phrasing and people think oh it's someone just copying what Paul said to make it
look authentic and some people say second Thessalonians has a heart which I've always felt like
that whenever I come across that that feels like the most desperate argument for people who want
to hold on to Paul didn't write this it's it's yeah my argument for why Paul didn't write this
is it sounds really like Paul it seems like a really bad argument yeah um other there's
other people say it has a different tone so second Thessalonians is harsher and more authoritarian
those are the general arguments about it and so I didn't want to get fully into that in my thesis
but I did want to tackle the eschatology side of things and be kind of yeah are these contradictory
okay here's ways to bring them together and so because of that authorship people if they say if
Paul didn't write it it's quite late in the first century however I have four scholars like me who
think Paul did write it most of us would say very quickly after first Thessalonians who within the
same some have said within weeks some say maybe a few months down the line as news comes back to
him because he sends Timothy off to visit them and Timothy comes back to see him and he's like
um Timothy comes back says well things are really bad you need to write another letter to deal with
this um so those who do think Paul wrote it most of us would say within the same time frame so
they're possibly the two earliest letters we have if they were written so close together I think
that can explain the similar phrasing to um where he's just he's got the same phrases in his mind
and um the tone can very easily be explained by a very big crisis coming up I mean I've certainly
changed my tone when I need to quickly deal with something um so yeah that's in terms of authorship
that's sort of that's the main debates and and I I think most commentaries actually think both were
written by Paul and there's you'll find a few that don't agree but for the most part commentaries
tend to have that it's when you get into other scholarship that you find the debates okay so
even among unbelieving scholars yeah there's a consensus problem yeah yeah okay so this so
this is really helpful we were into so the one Thessalonians Paul has a strong sense on
this coming it'll be unexpected and you're low and you're saying that's explicable by
the particular pastoral issue he's addressing that there's just grief and concern over Christians
who've died and Christ hasn't come back yet and what will happen to them and he's is it that he's
wanting in one Thessalonians is it that he's wanting to give them a sense of there's a certainty that
he's coming back he just is it's going to be unexpected but it is certain is that kind of
where he's is that where he's kind of erring pasturally I think so yeah I think he's really
wanting to give them that certainty and and hope in the midst of grief for Christ is coming back
and and those who have died aren't going to miss out on that okay great now we were we've gone
today with a lot of stuff really helpfully because we were we were doing the same kind of thinking
but now in relation to two Thessalonians and you're saying Paul sounds different on eschatology
because a different situation and I was finding that really interesting because I was kind of
expecting someone this this is a compliment not a criticism I was kind of expecting that someone
who'd done a PhD on it would would finally explain to me who the restrainer is and what exactly their
misunderstanding over the day of the Lord was so I could now preach this with great confidence
and you're kind of saying we sort of know the general territory but but we don't sure so take
us back to what what they might they be misunderstanding about the day of the Lord in the two Thessalonians
situation yeah so this is I'm not sure everyone's going to agree with me on this so this is this is
my this is my own personal thoughts on it I think they took from first Thessalonians that there was
a difference between the Perusia so Jesus is coming and the day of the Lord and so they saw the Perusia
as Jesus coming to save them so Perusia is this Greek word or translated coming return of Christ
yeah that's that's yeah that's it and so they see this term and they think that's when Jesus comes
and saves us and day of the Lord because of the way it's talked about in first Thessalonians five
is very centered on judgment that's the whole passage is basically about on the day of the Lord
believers will not escape okay and so a moment of judgment and so the reason I think that is because
that is one way to take the day of the Lord from some of the prophets it is in some of the prophets
it is solely about destruction and so you could see how the Thessalonians could potentially
misconstrue that or if someone decided they'd had a prophecy explaining first Thessalonians to mean
that because I think what he then does in second Thessalonians is links the two completely together
right so these Thessalonians in two Thessalonians they think is this right they're thinking something
like well Perusia hasn't happened because we have not seen Christ return Perusia clearly not happened
yes but have they if there's something they're seeing that to them looks like an act of judgment
from God so that's what I think that has happened yeah that's what I think and that's what a few
very influential scholars think so they started me off on that path and including influential
scholars here presently I a few articles point to some things that were happening in that region
of the world and kind of in the 48 to 50 time frame it some ancient historians talk about that
as particularly tragic years lots of earthquakes and famine and a lot going on there's different
events that could have happened that could have made someone think this is the day of the Lord
and I think one reason people who don't think Paul wrote it think it's quite late is they
associate the destruction of the temple with yeah that's the only thing I was wondering
that is that enough to be the end of the world yeah however if you if you think to a very
pressurized situation with people thinking about what's we're hoping in the day of the Lord and
we're hoping in the Prussia and we're looking out for signs of it it is possible that something
that we maybe you know thousands of years down the line think compared to everything
else going on isn't that big a deal it could have felt very I'm going to use the phrase
apocalyptic dramatic it could have felt like that very easily to someone and I'm not saying
all the Thessalonians believed this but it could have been a big enough faction and that happens
and that happens all the time doesn't it big stuff happens to people this is the end of the world
well I know yeah and I'm wondering too about the the time and the distance in the in the location
you know so if I mean people point oh the destruction of the temple obviously that's
a huge event that is much discussed but if I'm over in that part of the world in Thessalonica
the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem I don't know it's maybe it's not the case but it's not
obvious to me that that's going to be at the top of my radar in in the first century context and
maybe some more local event would mean much more to me and to my family than this event happening
elsewhere yeah I don't know is that does that but you're saying there are people who do want to link
it in some way yeah some people want to stretch in the temple the destruction of the temple I
think because there's like temple language happening in second in chapter two talks about
the man of lawlessness sitting in the temple and so they associate that with um the space the
spasian who goes into destroys the temple and so they see that as that okay but you don't think
you need to go there I don't think you need to go there could be just local stuff in Greece yeah
that's really helpfully clear on the kind of situation Paul may might be addressing
just help us with how does that explain why he now in terms of the solution he presents
how does that explain how he sounds different from how he does he wants us alone as he emphasizes
emphasizes certainty and suddenness to Thessalonians he starts talking about signs that you'll see
beforehand why why does he give that different response to this different problem in the two
Thessalonians situation yeah I think I mean I think it has a lot to do with restraint to use
the vocabulary of it is um giving some clear guidelines around these things have not happened
and in at one point I think it's two verse five he says as I told you when I was with you
this so I mean that's why some of it's just lost to us about what actually he said to them and
and what happened I I can make my confident assertions but we don't ultimately know what
we don't ultimately know what previous knowledge he's drawing on and so some of it is just he's
he's going back to he I'm sure he would have told them some about the end time scenario
so some of these figures would they just would have known who he was talking about
but he's he points back to them to be like remember I told you these things
and so this this rumor you're hearing doesn't line up with what I told you
right okay so think back to what I told you and hold on to that don't get don't get like
off course from okay I don't know about you but like this is really helpful the kind of
the kind of feel I'm getting is help me if this is all in the right kind of lines
sounding like in one Thessalonians it's a fairly basic issue they've got people are dying
it is Jesus going to come back and make it all okay for them or are they lost now how do we know
it's that sense it's kind of really basic in two Thessalonians they they've gone beyond
eschatology 101 that you know they're doing kind of hyper eschatology they're making
distinctions well there's a perusia the appearing and we don't think that has happened but that's
the thing that they're the Lord they're kind of divining eschatology a bit more thinking harder
about it and in order to deal with that kind of more detailed misunderstanding Paul there just
brings in a lot more detail about events you might want to look out for that just weren't needed
he didn't have to he didn't have to talk about that yeah to sort them out in the one Thessalonian
situation as I say that's sounding quite is that too simplistic or something like that
I think that's a good summary I think I would just want to add to that which I don't think I said is
I still think there is a comfort aspect to second Thessalonians I think okay I think it's I think
he's writing to the majority who don't necessarily think the day of the Lord has happened but have a
lot of questions about it because there's this group saying the day of the Lord has happened
so part of it is like refuting that claim but I think in chapter one he spends a while just
reassuring them that they will be saved they will be with Jesus they will and so I think
compared to first Thessalonians it's more about they will be your your relatives your friends who
have died they will be with you when Jesus comes they are not lost I think second Thessalonians is
more about the day of the Lord hasn't happened and Jesus's return hasn't passed you but it's
it's it's not failed to show up okay well they think it has passed them by because potentially
some local events that was of great significance has got some of them saying hey maybe like
this was it salvation hasn't I think that I think that's okay and and presumably then Paul
through his messengers he knows about this rumor he knows what they're thinking he knows if there
is a local event that's prompted this he knows what it is and he knows some of the detail and now
he's going to speak into it do you think that that but but we don't know what he knows do you think
that that gap between what he knows about their context and we don't know just reading the letter
do you think that helps explain some of why some of those passages in second Thessalonians especially
have proven so difficult and feel so obscure because we're only hearing on one side of the
conversation as it were yeah yeah definitely um I I am not surprised people struggle with
second Thessalonians in particular I think it's a harder one to get from the historical
into the theological takeaways what does it mean for us today I do think that's a harder
jump for a lot of people because it feels it feels obscure and it's it's it's it's it's
a lot of us aren't comfortable with reading apocalyptic literature I think of I don't know
if this is the case across the board but certainly the joke is about the book of revelation that
people only ever preach on the letters to the churches and nothing else in the book or they
only spend time on all the symbols and stuff and so I think just generally we have a harder time
with apocalyptic literature because we're not used to being taught how to read it and so I think
that's part of the problem I a minute or two ago I just held you back from telling us more about
the man of law so in the second letter man of lawlessness and the restrainer help us out yeah
um these are my best guesses because I again I think this is where the evidence points but I'm
not positive um so you think the restrainer for me I found a little easier um I think
Paul is drawing on should I read the verse or do you know if by heart well maybe you probably do
you probably do just being polite so we're in probably because we're in some detail here
we're in so in two Thessalonians chapter two and now you know what is holding him back
let's talk about the man of lawlessness what's holding him back so that he may be revealed at
the proper time for the secret power of lawlessness is already at work but the one who now holds it
back will continue to do so till he's taken out of the way um so uh that bit what holds him back or
the one who holds him back is the restrainer is how you translate the greek verb there so the one
who restrains and the restraining force um or how to think of those um so there's a lot of questions
there's a lot of questions about what's happening there who's holding back the man of lawlessness
who seems to be I think the way we think about an antichrist figure is probably accurate for
that even without using the terminology I think he's based on a sorry I'm jumping back to the man
of lawlessness I think the man of lawlessness is based on a lot of jewish history so it's based in
Daniel um the um abomination of desolation sort of language and and this king who sets himself
up against god and everyone so back to uh what's his name Antiochus Epiphanes yeah yes Antiochus
Epiphanes um who who in um kind of the time between the old testament and the new testament
comes in and um conquers Jerusalem he's a um syrian ruler comes in takes over Jerusalem and
desecrates the temple yeah yeah so Daniel points forward to that um we have some writings
called the Maccabees that also talk about what happens there and so he's the he's the sort of
like our uh is archetype the right word that he's he's the original figure who demonstrates this
just absolute prideful yeah yeah setting himself up against god and then you have a roman general
called Pompey who comes in and similarly desecrates the temple in Jerusalem um he is often referred to
as the lawless one in some of the jewish writings is he the pig sacrificing guy have I got
I just saw when I was reading went in a sacrifice deliberate provoked sacrifice to dig on the altar
in the temple yeah I should know that but oh I don't know who it is but so it's this kind of
character that people these really upset people have done yeah so again this political ruler who
comes in and um just really desecrates right the holy place yeah yeah yeah um see he he he'll get
referred to a similar language from Daniel sometimes as well that's interesting um
um then you move down the timeline and one of the roman emperors Caligula has this plan
in the 40s not known as a nice guy is he Caligula I'm remembering that um yeah not a nice guy um and
he has this plan in right around 39 to 40 AD to go send a statue to Jerusalem that gets set up
in the holy place in the temple in Jerusalem and there is great outrage over this among the
jewish statue of himself okay yeah of himself I think in the style of portraying himself as
Zeus so portraying himself as God set up in the temple sounding a little familiar to second
Thessalonians here um but it's I think what you have there is just this train of these rulers who
set themselves up against God and and desecrate what is holy right so I think Paul's drawing on
that language to point towards an sort of eschatological end time opponent of some sort
and that's about as much as I think you can get there but he's saying to the Thessalonians
that figure hasn't shown up and arrived I told you about that figure he's not shown up so that's
that's the first thing you haven't the man of lawlessness hasn't been revealed is the language
Paul uses um he and he'll say the mystery of lawlessness is still at work so lawlessness
happens and it's seen in this whole pattern across the centuries of people doing evil things
but the sort of central figure of lawlessness that's empowered by satan himself hasn't
appeared yet okay so that's why it then turned it gets read as anti-christ in the following
centuries right so okay so if I'm putting the piece together so even though these awful disasters
have happened around you which makes you think the day of the lord has happened and are worried that
salvation the appearing has passed you by no salvation has not passed you by because final
salvation will only come after this final man of lawlessness figure has come and been revealed been
like made obvious done his worst and everybody knows what's happening yeah that's that's kind
of the argument is it from that's what Paul's wanting to say yeah yeah and I think this is
where it gets hard for interpreting is I I mean honestly I haven't quite worked out how best to
talk about the man of lawlessness figure I'm not I'm I'm working on wrapping my head around how that
how we think about and talk about that today but I think what I am confident about is that's the
pattern Paul's pointing to is prideful evil turned against God okay and he uses that as a he uses
that to say that will be defeated the moment Jesus appears is the moment the man of lawlessness is
killed and so again you get that hope right coming in yeah yeah um sorry I was talking about the
restrainer and went on to the man of lawlessness no that's so good but Paul also says the reason
he's not appeared this man of lawlessness or he's not been revealed is because he's been restrained
yeah by something and that's I think one commentary says there's like 10 different
interpretations of who the restrainer is um it was it was very popular some of the early church
fathers thought it was the Roman Empire so the rule of the land law and order kept evil in check
until this final moment um so you do get a lot of that more common today you've got to feel quite
positively about the Roman Empire yes well yeah that's part that's part you're overlooking quite
uh-huh okay yeah um more common today is to actually see it as a supernatural angelic
figure and that's rooted if we go back to Daniel it's rooted in some of what happens in Daniel in
the same sections is um you have different angels who are over different earthly empires
and the archangel Michael is over the nation of Israel he's with the people of God and in chapter
12 it says um when Michael arises um lawlessness such as has never been seen before and never will
be seen again comes but kind of at that moment God's people will be saved and his enemies will
be destroyed and then you get a promise of resurrection at that point too and that all
feels very similar to what's happening across the Thessalonian letters and so a lot of people will
then say actually I think the restraining figure is probably Michael and he is holding he's he's
God's agent to hold back yeah the full expression of lawlessness until God's appointed moment so
God's in charge of it all but he's at some point Michael's gonna be he's gonna remove himself or
God's gonna remove him from the scene and and the final drama is all gonna play out
that that's a fascinating spiritual perspective on the world now isn't it yeah absolutely and um
just Sydney you mentioned kind of history of interpretation of this this is obviously generated
all sorts of um speculative uh exegetical solutions to this problem just wondering as you as you think
about that and you think about what New Testament scholars are doing today to what extent do you
think I mean is this is this one of these things where um can two Thessalonians two sort of um
solve the the problem or or a lot of these differing exegetical interpretations are they coming out of
other precept positions people bring to the text larger kind of hermeneutical ways of thinking about
eschatology and and how the Bible fits together um in other words do you think if if we're going
to understand this is you know can we can we just sort of exegete the text on its own and this is
this is what Paul means or or is it really a matter of um larger questions about how we put
our Bibles together and how we understand these bigger pieces of uh theology and eschatology
it's a complex question that um
um I think a lot of my experience is working with just pure historic people historically want to
wanting to understand what did Paul mean exactly what did he mean and not then taking that next
step to how do we move from that into preaching or teaching or exhortation and I think that's
that's kind of I'm finding myself in a place of trying to make that next step off of I've done
the historical work and then relating it to theology um I think that's one of the things
I really enjoy about KIL is bringing the two together and being able to start thinking about
I think good historical work is incredibly important and I think it's it's vital to be
working at what influences could be behind this how does that open up the text what what might
have been happening but I don't think that's the end of the story for us either and I think
it's taking that step from
here's exactly what Paul wrote into here's how it impacts us as Christians 2 000 years
down the line um I feel like I didn't answer that very well no one of the things it raises to me is
just here having this conversation hearing you unpack different pieces of it um here you know
you reference the Augustine quote um about some of these questions and you recognize the one about
I have no idea what I don't yeah yeah you know you're you're confronted with this and I'm just
thinking um if we're thinking about moving from kind of uh historical questions okay what did
Paul mean in in when he wrote this and now we're thinking about preaching and we're thinking about
teaching in the local church it does raise the question doesn't it if I'm trying to proclaim
God's word to God's people and I come to the text and and I'm I'm genuinely despite my best prayerful
efforts oh yeah I'm genuinely puzzled as as to what this means uh what do I do with that and how
do I take that as a faithful herald when I'm not sure what I'm meant to be here you could feel
really unnerved yes something just saying like yeah I was going I was planning to do a talk series
for the church youth group through one or two Thessalonians and I just assume that after my
study I'm going to have a good idea of who the man of lawlessness is of who the restrainer is
of just precisely what the misunderstanding yeah the pause in each case was and I thought I'd be
able to get answers to those questions in a few hours uh study and some good uses and good
commentaries and here is someone who spent years on a PhD on it going yeah that could sound unnerving
couldn't it absolutely and when it's you know Thursday and Sunday's come in this this is a
real existential moment you you preach through uh first and second Thessalonians you're saying
a long time ago so don't ask me to recall it okay yeah I think I think this is where I I accept my
limitations as a human and I I think it's a really helpful exercise in remembering that God is bigger
than us and his word is bigger than us and and if if that's enough to take away from this I think
that's a good start I think you can take some theological principles out of second Thessalonians
and I think when when I seek to teach it um I some key things I like to focus on is um just the
message of peace across all three chapters of it is there's a constant resting in the fact that
God will make all things right in the end um whether you're facing persecution whether you're
dealing with um rumors of war and other things or whether you're dealing with chapter three
um church members who maybe aren't fully pulling their weight and there's various things but every
one of those chapters ends on a note of confidence in who God is and um that he will make all things
right that evil will fully be defeated in the end and so those those for me are the like heartwarming
refreshing takeaways and and I will be um speaking on the second Thessalonians very soon and when I
come to do that that's what I'm focusing on God's victory over evil God's peace now and ultimately
those those are the takeaways whether you know exactly who these figures are I ultimately do not
I ultimately do not think that matters I think it's fun to think about if you have time and but
it's not something I would ever want someone to feel stressed or worried about that's huge that I
find I find that hugely helpful that resonates with something actually Augustine says in um in
non-christian teaching addressing the question why are there apparently obscure parts of the
bible and he may well have had this one in as an example in mine and one of his answers is it's
to humble us that these are the things of God that are being spoken of here and we will never fully
understand what I like about very much about just thinking of preaching bible studies in my will
like about what you very much about what you just said is you may not understand every detail but
that nevertheless there is a very clear message here about a very particular set of issues in our
lives that we can address and can speak into from this yeah I find that really helpful
can I ask this have you spent all this time in one two Thessalonians and you began by saying look
some some people alleged there's just a straight contradiction between them one is makes no mention
of signs before the end suddenly Jesus comes the other is here are the signs to watch for so you'll
know he's coming and you I very helpfully said well if someone thinks that's a problem here
actually they've got a much bigger problem because that's an issue right across the new testament
across the new testament as you put all that together as you as a believer yourself look into
the future what do you where do you want sort of the centre of gravity to be for you is it
I'm not I'm not reading the times I'm not looking for signs it'll come any he'll come any moment
or is there a sense of no I know it can't be yet because such and such hasn't happened so how do
you how do you locate yourself just as a believer yourself in that yeah I guess for me personally
I almost want to say both like there's there's a really good helpful reminder that the Lord is
coming back and that that impacts every single decision I make every single day and and I'm to
keep watch and behave in line with my faith and and that's that's a really helpful grounding
thing that I do think about a lot I I think having studied this a lot I'm I'm quite happy to
leave it to God's timing I think the danger is becoming almost complacent and well he's not
come for 2 000 years so probably not going to happen anytime soon so I think for me it's
probably a better reminder of he is coming and that makes a difference every day
great thank you very much any more questions yeah I think I mean I think it's it's interesting
there's that tension between um he's he's coming soon it could come at any moment um but there's
these I mean there's that tension the other tension that this conversation raises for me is um
um again it's so we have these passages we have these references um there's some difficult things
in here um greater interpreters than any of us have found them difficult uh Peter says that some
of the things Paul writes are hard to understand right we've got that on the one hand and I think
there's it's interesting because you you find yourself sometimes uh in talking to people in
church stuck a little bit between wanting to emphasize that and say hey you know what this
is hard we probably won't understand it there's more here this is deeper than we're ever going
to go in this life on the other hand you find yourself wanting to encourage people but we
should be thinking deeply about God and the things of God and and in these verses about the the
lawless one being revealed or every bit as inspired as as passages with which we're more familiar
and people like yourself are spending lots of time and energy trying to think about this and
think deeply about this and so finding that tension between on the one hand saying hey um there's a
sense in which you know you don't need to be losing sleep if you can't put all the dots together
perfectly on the other hand not wanting to suggest to people hey you don't need to worry about this
it's crazy don't you know don't pay it any mind you know and living in yeah and striking that
balance I think is is is tricky but um there's that famous quote and I can't remember who it's
from and I think it was talking about John's Gospel but I think it applies as much today of
God's word is shallow enough for a duck to paddle in but deep enough for or shallow enough for a
duck to walk in but deep enough for an elephant to wade in and that that you can always get more
out of it but it also yeah whatever level you're at that's a helpful quote Gregory the first one
I think would be great is he the first one on that you know I've heard that I've heard that I've heard
different people I've heard it with different animals sometimes it's a the sentiments there
it's a mix and match quote you get big animal little animal excellent final thing uh for folks
in ministry top commentary tips on Thessalonian letters this is a popular level I'm gonna throw
in John Stott's BFT I think that's I haven't spent much time with that one so I'm not sure he just he
obviously the stuff he doesn't get into but he just packs so much into that it's hugely helpful
it's a great one I think yeah um Nijay Gupta has a recent one in the who was that Nijay Gupta okay um
in the I think it's called the new covenant commentary series um which is is at a lay level
um but he's incredibly well versed in Thessalonians if if someone's wanting a more complex
but still overview yeah Nijay Gupta also has what's called um a critical introduction to
first and second Thessalonians by Zondervan and um that is just an amazing resource that I've
recommended to everyone who wants to get a view of what's been said on all these fantastic do you
Greek to understand that uh there are sections of Greek but most of it you don't need Greek
great so and that's sort of a next step up from brilliant thanks Sydney that was really fascinating
just hugely helpful on some real historical details but showing how we need to think about
those and how building on that we get to some real sort of pastoral practical conclusions to
and helping us steer through what we know and what we don't know um we trust that this deep
roots podcast has been a blessing to you and we'll be back in a month's time see you then