1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,440 Well, hello and welcome to this month's Deep Roots podcast, 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,960 Conversations about Theology and Ministry. 3 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,600 My name is Tim Ward and I'm one of the faculty here at Oak Hill. 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,240 And it's wonderful to have in conversation today 5 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,560 David Baldwin, who's our director of global mission, and Ray Porter, 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,920 who teaches world mission here as a visiting lecturer. 7 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,280 I've been looking forward to having this conversation about which world mission, 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,280 because you two guys are real experts. 9 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,720 You won't blow your own trumpet, but you really are. 10 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,240 So it's wonderful that you both teach here at college. 11 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,080 Just tell us a bit about yourselves. 12 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:34,360 Go on, Ray. Why don't you? 13 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:35,560 Carry on, Dave. 14 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,680 Well, OK, so I've been teaching here for about 12 years. 15 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:42,160 Picked up from Ray. 16 00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:46,440 And before that, my wife, family and I, we were in Ethiopia 17 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,920 with Serving in Mission and there I was involved in Bible teaching 18 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,560 and also English language for outreach. 19 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:57,480 So that's my background. 20 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,720 Came and went from a strong sending church in Reading, 21 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:05,040 which was like an aircraft carrier, strong and stable in the water 22 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,960 and great for missionaries to fly off and come back to. 23 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:09,560 So that's my background. 24 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:11,360 Now I live in Birmingham. 25 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,640 Great. And tell us about church in Birmingham. 26 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,720 So, yes, more and I have got involved with a small church plant or replant. 27 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:23,480 It's a congregational church in a very multicultural area, which nearly died out. 28 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:28,160 And save two or three members and now a younger couple have come in. 29 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:29,560 More and I support couple. 30 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:34,680 Others are joining the church and we're seeking to reestablish a gospel work there. 31 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:40,320 But be aware of and relate well to the fact that there's lots of Sikhs there, 32 00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:42,920 lots of Hindus, Muslims, people from all over the world 33 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:44,720 and lots of different faith backgrounds. 34 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:46,880 So. Terrific. 35 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:48,160 And Ray? 36 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,960 Yes, well, I came to Oak Hill in 2005. 37 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:56,640 I came here seconded by OMF, which was the mission agency 38 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,040 that I've been working with in Indonesia and in the UK 39 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:07,560 and set up a completely new degree program in theology and world mission 40 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:13,400 with the conviction that many missionaries are under trained. 41 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,520 There's a lot of people who sort of think, well, you know, 42 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:25,280 if you're going out to another country, you just go with your Bible 43 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,120 and whatever experience you've got yourself. 44 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:34,600 But in the world today, as always, really, you need people who both know 45 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:42,040 their scriptures, know their theology, know how to think about crossing cultures. 46 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:47,720 And Oak Hill had the foundation of great biblical courses, 47 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:53,880 great doctrinal courses, and we brought in the element of world mission as well. 48 00:02:54,840 --> 00:03:00,760 And so I taught here full time running the course and Dave 49 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,640 was picked up really by Dan Strange, who used to be here. 50 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,400 Well, I knew Dave because I'd been New Testament lecturer in Belfast Bible 51 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,360 College and Dave had been one of my students there. 52 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:15,640 So there's a nice sort of. 53 00:03:15,640 --> 00:03:16,640 I didn't know that. 54 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:20,720 I'm going to tap you for stories when we finish recording. 55 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,560 Ray, tell us about experience overseas. 56 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:29,680 Yes, I we we had 13 years in Indonesia, 14 years in Indonesia 57 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,800 where I was a pastor in church planting. 58 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,360 It was a tremendous experience because 59 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:43,840 I'm working under Indonesian leadership as part of an Indonesian church. 60 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,120 The first church I worked with was in a town 61 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:52,200 which was in the size of Birmingham, Bandung, in a congregation of seven thousand. 62 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,360 And then I went down to very curious, really. 63 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:02,880 The denomination asked me to be the pastor of a church, which for a foreigner, 64 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:08,600 it wasn't the period when you expected foreigners to ever be put into that position. 65 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:14,480 But there was a church where they thought that someone who was outside. 66 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:20,760 Any of the ethnic groups would be able to to lead this congregation. 67 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:26,000 And the fact that I came as an OMF missionary free 68 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,400 was also a great advantage to the church at that stage. 69 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,600 And that was a much smaller church of one thousand two hundred. 70 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,160 Oh, really tiny community. 71 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:43,760 Oh, really tiny community with a central church in a in a market town 72 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:49,240 and five village churches around it. 73 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,560 We ran as one congregation, 74 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:58,360 a congregation where two thirds of the members had been converts from Islam. 75 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,600 And we saw conversions from Islam during the time we were there. 76 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,400 That's tremendous. 77 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,560 But it was tremendous to have a congregation like that, 78 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,520 where you'd had so many who had come to faith in Christ 79 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:17,400 and were first generation Christians in that way. 80 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:20,880 That must have been hugely exciting. 81 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:22,560 Yes, yes. So. 82 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:23,640 Fantastic. 83 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:25,920 Well, I mean, a tremendous breadth of experience. 84 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,320 Many years in Africa and in Asia. 85 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,320 Before we hit record, 86 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:35,200 you two guys were telling me that just the extraordinary list of topics 87 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:36,280 you've been cooking up. 88 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:38,400 We probably won't have time for all of them. 89 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:39,400 Where do you want to start? 90 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,440 Well, I mean, Ray and I, we were talking about the question, 91 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,440 do we still need missionaries today, especially Western missionaries? 92 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,560 That was one of the first ones we thought of. 93 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:51,960 What else do we talk about, Ray? 94 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:54,480 Well, why not kick off there? 95 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:55,480 Well, let's start there. 96 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:56,120 Yes, go for that. 97 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,680 And then we might remember what else we talked about later. 98 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,320 I do. Should we try for a one word answer? 99 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,680 If you've got a one word, I usually run on to rather more words. 100 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,680 Well, I'll say, yes, we still need missionaries today 101 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:11,000 and we still need Western missionaries. 102 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,080 Say yes. And then you can add some more words. 103 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:19,320 I mean, I think one needs to qualify what one means by that. 104 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,000 If you still have the picture of pith helmets 105 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,800 and if your image of a missionary actually is the apostle Paul 106 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,240 and you think I must go where Christ has never been named 107 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:38,280 and I will go myself, forgetting that Paul had a missionary band 108 00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:42,800 with him, usually the individual reaching out 109 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:48,240 without remembering that, of course, the gospel has been advancing in the world 110 00:06:49,280 --> 00:06:51,280 and in most communities of the world, 111 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:55,760 there are now Christian churches. They may be quite weak churches. 112 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,800 There may be countries like Japan where there's a lot of towns 113 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,160 and certainly villages in Japan where there is no Christian witness. 114 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,720 But there are Christian churches within the country, within the community, 115 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,440 may not within the ethnic group you're going to work with, 116 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:13,280 but in a neighboring ethnic group. 117 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:20,640 And to go in as a foreigner saying, I'm going to evangelize these people 118 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:25,280 I'm going to plant my church is an arrogance 119 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,800 that sadly characterizes many, many Westerners 120 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,480 and has done down the centuries. 121 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,360 Do you still see that attitude there in some people 122 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,800 who are coming forward from the West offering for service overseas? 123 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:45,120 Yes. Western culture, of course, is a broad statement, isn't it? 124 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:45,920 Sure, sure, sure. 125 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,960 And you have the different aspects of Western culture 126 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:53,680 and it must be said that the British are pretty good at arrogance. 127 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:56,880 But some while pretending not to be. 128 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:02,240 Well, yes. Well, some other countries are even more brazen 129 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:07,440 in their self-confidence in going into mission mentioning their names. 130 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,720 No, I'm I remember when I was in Bandung, 131 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:14,960 someone coming to me who was an independent missionary 132 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,120 from another country, which I will not name. 133 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,920 But he said, there's no one born again in this city. 134 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:25,200 And I sort of said, well, you know, I am part of a congregation of seven thousand. 135 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:29,440 And whilst I couldn't count on every one of them being born again, 136 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,400 many of them are, but they probably don't use that terminology 137 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,400 because there are many other biblical terminologies 138 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,720 about what it means to become a new creature in Christ Jesus. 139 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:43,200 Yeah. 140 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:52,480 And it was quite funny, actually, because this man had gathered a sort of small group. 141 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:58,240 And one day I was leading a service in the home of one of our members. 142 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:02,480 We had regularly house groups every week and I was leading this service. 143 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:09,680 And this missionary came in because the husband of the family we were in 144 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:13,680 had been going to his services and he had someone else from his mission 145 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,280 he'd brought to show their prize convert. 146 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,280 They came in and there were we as a congregation. 147 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,680 We welcome them to come and join us and sit down. 148 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:29,680 But it's that attitude that, you know, I'm going to go and do my thing. 149 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,960 If you look at the history of Western missions since William Carey in 1792, 150 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:40,160 famously, he wrote his inquiry into the need for means. 151 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,320 The whole modern missionary movement kind of kicked off from that. 152 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:46,800 I'll come back on that when we're back. 153 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:47,360 You can do, yeah. 154 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:52,560 And the story is told, isn't it, that he stood up in a meeting 155 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,560 and was told, sit down, young man, if God wants to convert the heathen, 156 00:09:56,560 --> 00:09:58,880 he'll do it without your help and mine. 157 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,880 But Carey won the day and he was in the service. 158 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,960 But Carey won the day and the Missionary Society has got started. 159 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:12,480 And in that 200 years since, Western missions have dominated, 160 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,000 which is a bit as Ray said, we've got 2000 years of Christian history 161 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,240 and the gospel going out cross-culturally. 162 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,640 So it's a bit of a blip, a bit of an anomaly 163 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,200 that the last 200 years have been dominated by Western missions. 164 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,600 And I think we now need a bit of humility 165 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:32,880 that the church has grown, has prospered, is sending out missionaries 166 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:34,160 from other parts of the world. 167 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:38,000 So especially Asia, the Korean missionaries I was working alongside, 168 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,320 African missionary societies, they're sending a lot of missionaries, 169 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,240 and Latin American in particular, these regions, 170 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,240 these three sort of continental regions, they're adding to the mission force. 171 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,120 So Western missionaries need to change posture 172 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:58,640 and work alongside in partnership with these other newer sending missionary countries, I think. 173 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:00,640 So this is really interesting. 174 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,560 Many people have heard this, you know, from everywhere to everywhere, 175 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:07,040 the kind of language that gets used now for mission. 176 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:12,160 For someone who is wondering if God is calling them overseas 177 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:17,120 or a pastor seeking to discern that kind of call in others or maybe foster it in them, 178 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,680 what does this mean about what we should be looking for? 179 00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:27,200 What we should be looking for and fostering in those whom the Lord may be calling to go elsewhere? 180 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:27,700 Yeah. 181 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,040 Yes, can I just correct one thing, though? 182 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:31,840 Please correct me. 183 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,240 William Carey, from the British point of view... 184 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:35,760 Once your teacher, always your teacher. 185 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:36,320 Yeah, I love this. 186 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:41,600 From the British point of view is maybe the beginnings of mission, 187 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,160 certainly into what we would describe as the majority world. 188 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,080 But the Dutch had been there a hundred years earlier. 189 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:51,120 Okay. 190 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:55,520 I mean, the first Protestant missionaries really are the Dutch 191 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:03,120 and translating the scriptures in Taiwan, in what was the Dutch East Indies, 192 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,360 from the beginning of the 17th century. 193 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,600 Right. Was that wrapped up in Dutch expansionism and colonialism? 194 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:12,800 It was Dutch expansionism. 195 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,160 The Dutch East Indies Company, as one of its... 196 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:22,400 The conditions of its monopoly from the government was to establish the Protestant faith, 197 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,880 which the British East India Company didn't have. 198 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:28,800 I stand corrected. 199 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,080 Now we need to circle back to the question. 200 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:30,560 No, that's really helpful. 201 00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:34,400 So actually that shows, doesn't it, that is this right in a sense, 202 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,840 what we're still grappling with in the West is what does mission look like 203 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:42,080 if it's not riding the coattails of empire and expansion? 204 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:43,600 That's kind of the issue, isn't it? 205 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:44,080 Yes. 206 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,000 So I'll come back to your question. 207 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:46,560 Please do. 208 00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:47,200 I'm sorry. 209 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:48,000 I knew you would. 210 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,480 What do you say? 211 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:55,520 Well, I mean, first of all, you need to have someone who really does have a burden 212 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:02,400 for the gospel going out and someone who's proved themselves to be a gospel person. 213 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:02,720 Yeah. 214 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:11,600 I remember this one person arriving in Indonesia and saying, I'd never preached. 215 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,800 Do you have any opportunities to preach in English before I get the language? 216 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,680 You know, and I thought, well, who on earth sent someone out 217 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,160 to be in a situation where you needed to preach if they had never preached? 218 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:22,720 Sure, sure, sure. 219 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:33,040 And then you need to have an understanding that you're going to work with probably 220 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:37,200 alongside under a national church. 221 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:43,120 You are going to have to adapt yourself to them rather than try to force them into your mold. 222 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,960 You have to have a degree of humility, not thinking that you're the fourth member of 223 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,840 the Trinity when you arrive somewhere else. 224 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:57,680 And of course, the whole great thing, going back to the question of Christian experience, 225 00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:04,720 ministry experience, that crossing water doesn't translate to the gospel. 226 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,160 But crossing water doesn't transform someone. 227 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:15,680 And what they are here is a preparation for what they will be there. 228 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:17,920 That's right. 229 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:23,280 And when the pressures of cross-cultural life, in particular, ministering in a new context 230 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,800 where you're new to the language and the culture, you feel like a baby. 231 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:31,440 Some of those underlying, no missionaries, perfect, obviously, the Lord uses foreign people. 232 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,200 The apostle Paul talks about his thorns in his flesh and his weaknesses. 233 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,040 But things will really come out under pressure. 234 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,680 And that's why good screening is needed. 235 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:49,040 So to come back to your question in a couple of ways, as Ray was talking, it made me think of 236 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,520 the first church to call and send out, which actually wasn't the Jerusalem church you 237 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,640 might expect from the early chapters of Acts, but was the Antioch church. 238 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:03,200 It already was quite a cross-cultural church, and Greeks, and Jews there. 239 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,400 Barnabas rocked up, the Cypriots. 240 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:07,840 He'd been in Jerusalem too. 241 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:13,120 He went and got Paul from Tarsus, and they ministered there. 242 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:18,720 And as Ray said, they proved themselves at home in their ministry, staying in Antioch for 243 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:25,760 a year, teaching, preaching, transporting a gift, demonstrating financial credibility 244 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:26,800 and reliance. 245 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:31,680 And only then, in Acts 13, do we read that that church, and you read the list of elders, 246 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,880 their names actually are indicative of quite broad demographic. 247 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,400 You've got somebody serving in Herod's court. 248 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:39,840 You've got obvious Africans there. 249 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:45,360 If you've got names, they pray, they fast, they lay hands on Paul and Barnabas to send them out. 250 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:50,960 But Paul and Barnabas, if you'd have been able to stop them and have put a mic in front of them 251 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,680 at that point and say, what was your sense of call? 252 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:55,600 It would be fascinating to hear what they said. 253 00:15:55,600 --> 00:16:00,880 I think they probably both would have said they had a burden for the lost from other nations. 254 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,000 You can look at Paul's conversion story, where he reflects a little bit on his conversion to Christ 255 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:07,600 and his calling into ministry. 256 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:09,280 What would Barnabas have said? 257 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:09,840 I don't know. 258 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:11,600 They grabbed others and took them along. 259 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,760 Timothy, for example, they grabbed him and took him along. 260 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:20,560 So it's interesting the different ways people get involved in cross-cultural mission. 261 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:25,280 But I think one thing they would emphasize was the importance of the sending church, 262 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:29,840 to which they always returned to report back at the end of every missionary journey, 263 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,800 back to Jerusalem, back to Antioch and report back. 264 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:37,440 We're accountable to the local church, which cuts across the Western trend for individualism 265 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,040 and this kind of mystical sense that I have a missionary call, 266 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:47,360 but it's nothing to do with my church and the church needs to test a sense of calling. 267 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:51,840 Yes, I remember one person who they were going to resign from the mission 268 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,480 and I immediately picked up the phone to their church. 269 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,200 They said, why did you contact our church? 270 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:58,960 Your church sent you out. 271 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,440 As you're coming back, you need your church's permission, 272 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,200 to put that whole relationship in the right context. 273 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,800 Well, lifting into this a bit more, what kinds of good practice do you see 274 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,400 from the side of the local church in relating to those who they've sent out? 275 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,880 I mean, out of sight, out of mind is always easy, isn't it, when ministry is incredibly busy. 276 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,680 So what kind of good things do you see going on local church is doing? 277 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:25,840 Dave, your? 278 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,520 Well, I think as Ray said already, 279 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:36,080 making sure that the local church is cross-culturally wired and think, 280 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:41,360 well, if they're preaching through the scriptures, mission is their cross-cultural mission. 281 00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:44,560 Mission is their cross-cultural movement of the gospel is there. 282 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:50,480 So faithful exegesis and hermeneutics will imply a missological impulse. 283 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:56,240 People will want to be involved in the gospel going from one group to another. 284 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,280 You had a really tightly packed sentence there, something like, 285 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,640 faithful exegesis will imply a missional impulse. 286 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:08,320 Well, in common language, I suppose, all I'm trying to say is if you open the Bible and read it, 287 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:14,640 it screams mission because the Bible is all about God's story of salvation. 288 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,040 And that involves all nations. 289 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:22,000 And when you get to the gospels and the acts, obviously starting with the Jewish people, 290 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:28,080 then the gospel is going across cross-cultural barriers and spreading around the world like wildfire. 291 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,640 So that's just going to be in our preaching and teaching if we're actually 292 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:32,640 seeing what's really there in the scriptures. 293 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:33,760 It's going to be there. 294 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:39,120 But then churches will be thinking about how does this flesh out in terms of our involvement? 295 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,360 What have we got going on locally? 296 00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:47,120 Because there are very few parishes or church areas where there aren't people from the nations 297 00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:48,400 living there around the church. 298 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,240 So how does cross-cultural mission flesh out for us here in this local church? 299 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,800 And then, of course, not thinking in a clunky way that that's different from overseas mission, 300 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:01,680 but joining the dots up, connecting the fact that we will also want to send, 301 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,200 call, test, and send people to other parts of the world too. 302 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,880 And to think of all of that as our cross-cultural mission. 303 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:09,380 Yeah. 304 00:19:09,380 --> 00:19:11,760 Yeah, one of the best things when I was a pastor, 305 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:18,240 I think one of the best things we ended up doing in order to develop a mission or focus, 306 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:23,360 just keep those that the church had sent out or was supporting in mind, 307 00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:25,920 fresh in mind as if they were part of us. 308 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:31,280 The best thing we did was we had a little run of groups of church family members going out 309 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:31,920 to visit them. 310 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:32,420 Yes. 311 00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:36,560 And so lots of churches do this. 312 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:37,760 In a sense, it's a no brainer. 313 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:42,880 I can't remember where the idea came from, but there was a real buzz around who's going to go. 314 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,960 And they come back, you know, you have a church evening where they show their photos 315 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:52,960 and they tell their stories and they then become evangelists for the mission that they've seen 316 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:54,720 in action. 317 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,520 And I had a slight worry that, you know, for the two weeks or whatever that they were there, 318 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:03,360 that was slightly, you know, cramping the style of the person who should be at it 319 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:04,800 and how wrong that was. 320 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,400 The mission was saying, how wonderful. 321 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,200 I'd love to have them kicking around for two weeks. 322 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,680 The thing that surprised me was the people who put their hands up to say, I want to go. 323 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,640 Some of the people who I thought there's no way they're going to want to spend two weeks 324 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,640 in a village in Tanzania in fairly rudimentary. 325 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,760 I mean, I just totally misjudged them. 326 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:34,960 We don't some older people just going, yeah, I've not traveled much. 327 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:35,920 I'd love to see. 328 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:38,160 I'm sure you've seen that kind of thing. 329 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:38,560 Yeah. 330 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:44,640 So you can't second guess the Lord on how he's going to provide for mission in terms of finance, 331 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:46,000 in terms of personnel. 332 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:51,120 And I've been very surprised, but A, where money's come from, not where I've expected B, 333 00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:55,200 the types of people that the Lord calls for short term or for long term. 334 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,840 Even if it's just for a visit, I think your point's very, very pertinent. 335 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:04,160 Chris and Roz Howes, who were graduates here, are probably in Ray's early classes now serving 336 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:05,040 in Uganda. 337 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:10,000 They've written a list of top 10 things that are good ways to support your missionary from 338 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:10,800 your local church. 339 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:15,120 And they include some of the things you talked about, things like don't think you're bothering 340 00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:19,520 us by calling us, writing to us, emailing us, phoning us up and visiting us. 341 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,400 And they like to be pestered. 342 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,480 They like to feel that they're still well connected to their sending church and not 343 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:27,600 out of sight, out of mind. 344 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,600 He goes as far, and I think he's pushing the envelope to say, you know, consider us as a 345 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,880 member of staff, but just serving in a different location. 346 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,400 Keep us informed of church meetings and keep us involved. 347 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:38,880 Yes. 348 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:40,080 I have one caveat, though. 349 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:48,160 That is that nowadays, when a missionary arrives at their destination, their first question 350 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,560 all usually is, how do I get on the Wi-Fi? 351 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:59,600 And this idea of continual communication with home actually is counterproductive sometimes 352 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,720 to people really getting stuck into the culture where they've gone to. 353 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:10,880 They're so concerned to keep their supporting base there that they never really feel part 354 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,240 of the local community. 355 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:20,880 I remember a couple who's serving in Africa I once met who said, you know, they were lacking 356 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:21,680 fellowship. 357 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:28,400 So I sort of inquired about the country they were in and the church that was there. 358 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,880 And yes, there was this church of several hundred, but there were no Westerners to have 359 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:33,680 fellowship with. 360 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,680 So I said, what about the Africans? 361 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,040 Are you having a fellowship with them? 362 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:43,440 Are you recognizing that these are your brothers in Christ? 363 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:50,240 And that's where you need to put your roots down now because that's where you're serving. 364 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:51,600 Yeah. 365 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,640 You make a very valid point, Ray, and especially in the first few years. 366 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,680 And I know your organization, OMF, particularly strong in this, people shouldn't return for 367 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:00,720 the first four years. 368 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:05,280 And mine, S.I.M., were the same because in those first four years when you're really 369 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,680 committing yourself to a new people and a new language and a new culture, it is very 370 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,080 important not to keep looking back home. 371 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:13,040 So I take your point. 372 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,720 And I think we have rules about how long before you can actually have visitors. 373 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:17,200 Yeah. 374 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:18,400 Which is wise, I think. 375 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,800 It is wise because you've got to get into the language, you've got to get into the culture. 376 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:31,200 When we went to work in Indonesia, the church that we ended up working with, the lead pastor 377 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,440 sort of said, well, you're coming on this condition. 378 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,440 You live where we tell you to live. 379 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,560 And you have fellowship with us. 380 00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:43,920 And it was a city that had the hills on one side. 381 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:48,720 And you don't go running up the hill all the time to have fellowship with other foreigners. 382 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,280 And that was the conditions. 383 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:51,840 Yeah. 384 00:23:51,840 --> 00:24:03,600 We had a normal house in south Bandung, which was the area that had been destroyed by the 385 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:09,120 retreating Indonesian army when the Dutch advanced and then rebuilt by them rather than 386 00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:12,800 the houses in the north, which were still the Dutch bungalows. 387 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:13,600 OK. 388 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:14,960 So you live there. 389 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:15,520 Yeah. 390 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:16,560 You have that fellowship. 391 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,440 If you move there, you've really got to live there. 392 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:20,000 Yeah. 393 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:20,960 Absolutely. 394 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:22,400 Yeah. 395 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:27,280 We almost didn't dare speak to a foreigner for a little while until they asked us to run 396 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:28,000 an English service. 397 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:28,960 But that was another matter. 398 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:29,440 Yeah. 399 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:34,240 And Arsi, did you feel well cared for by the church which had made this insistence? 400 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:36,240 Yes. 401 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,040 We felt very much that we were welcomed in as part of that church. 402 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:43,840 And we were really part of it. 403 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:49,120 And the important thing for a missionary, really, is not only to get into the work, 404 00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:54,160 but also to know and have fellowship with the people you're working with, 405 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:55,920 but also be able to react with them. 406 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:01,120 I remember when we came back to England for a short while in the middle of that time, 407 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:06,960 another missionary couple who were still in a stage of developing their language study 408 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:08,320 came to live in our house. 409 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,440 And I sort of said when I came back, well, how did you get on with them? 410 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,600 They didn't joke like you do. 411 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:20,240 Yeah, well, being able to joke in somebody else's language and cultural thought forms 412 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,640 is a sign that you're really making good progress. 413 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:30,720 And when we went back some years ago, which was about 20 years after we'd left, 414 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:33,600 the street sort of came out. 415 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:34,080 You're back. 416 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:34,560 You're back. 417 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,120 It's so good to see you again. 418 00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:38,400 These were the Muslim neighbors. 419 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:39,040 Yeah. 420 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:39,760 Oh, that's tremendous. 421 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:40,400 We had. 422 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:41,200 That's tremendous. 423 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:46,960 So, you know, that's the sort of relationship I think one wants to build up in the community. 424 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:47,520 Absolutely. 425 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,640 That's true wherever we live in, but especially if you're going overseas. 426 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:51,680 Wonderful. 427 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:53,280 Take us somewhere else. 428 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:54,080 Give us another topic. 429 00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:59,760 Could we talk about, Ray, could we talk about the relationship between the mission partner, 430 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:08,000 be it's a single couple or a family, the church and the missionary society or missionary agency, 431 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:09,520 which is a bit of a triangle. 432 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:15,280 Can we talk and Crosslinks especially, neither of us were with Crosslinks, but we've got a 433 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:20,960 lot to do with Crosslinks and they describe it as a three way partner, a triangular conversation. 434 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:22,560 Let's talk about that for a few minutes. 435 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:22,960 All right. 436 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,480 What role does, why do we even need missionary societies? 437 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:32,720 Let's start calling them agencies to suggest that they are like catalysts, 438 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,760 facilitators rather than have their own interest. 439 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:36,240 Yes. 440 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:36,560 Yes. 441 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,600 Society was a good word in many ways, wasn't it? 442 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:47,200 I mean, Kerry, it was the particular Baptist missionary society because at that time, 443 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:57,440 society was something new in the culture, that you had a society for the improvement of manners 444 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,200 and a gentle folk society and all this sort of thing. 445 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:07,360 So the idea of a missionary society, the idea of people collaborating together 446 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:15,440 and being together in fellowship, agency is a little bit more distance, a bit colder, 447 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:16,480 I think, as a term. 448 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:27,520 It may be preserves the idea that we are doing a task, but you lose some of that fellowship idea. 449 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:27,760 Yes. 450 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,480 But why do you need them? 451 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,320 You need them in some ways as facilitators. 452 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,360 There are some churches that send out missionaries directly. 453 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,760 They often piggyback on the back of societies. 454 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:52,560 I remember one well-known church that was sending out his own missionaries. 455 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,800 They said to me one day, you've got people in Hong Kong, haven't you? 456 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,000 Yes, yes. 457 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,960 Do they have to come home every year for a holiday because there's nowhere to go on holiday in Hong 458 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,160 I said no, and there's plenty of places to go on holiday in Hong Kong, but their missionaries 459 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,800 had sort of told them that there was nowhere to go on holiday and they had to come back every year 460 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,720 to have a holiday in England. 461 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,720 So there was no society to mediate that kind of information. 462 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,760 There was no one there with the local knowledge. 463 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:21,120 Yeah. 464 00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:21,620 OK. 465 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:23,200 Is that what you find? 466 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:23,920 Yes. 467 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,360 Very often, as Ray said, there is an impulse and there's almost a biblical 468 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,720 warrants, depending on how you read the scriptures, for thinking church to church is actually 469 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,160 cut out the middle man. 470 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,760 There's some people who have even said to me that missionary societies or agencies are a 471 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,040 little bit parasitic and that's far too strong. 472 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:47,040 But I think some mission leaders have realized that sometimes in the past mission societies or 473 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,720 agencies have come to churches and they've wanted the money and the best people. 474 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:51,200 Yeah. 475 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:56,720 But they're going to boss things and I think they're realizing that the local church should 476 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:57,520 call the shots. 477 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,280 God reveals his wisdom through the local church. 478 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,280 So you've got local churches and sending countries and receiving countries and they are 479 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,920 they are the body of Christ, not the agency. 480 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:10,400 Yeah. 481 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:16,560 But that expertise, a church thinking they can do it without a mission agency, sometimes 482 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,160 gets people in trouble. 483 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:25,040 So they may send somebody to another country where there's been no agency helping them 484 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:31,760 work out things like medical care, how to set a budget, which is the right budgets that 485 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:36,080 we live at the right level in the society we're going to, some cross-cultural orientation 486 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,960 and expertise, evacuation procedures if necessary and all these kinds of things. 487 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,080 So societies, they've been doing that for 200 years. 488 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,240 So there's some level of expertise there that local churches just cannot have. 489 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,640 So it makes sense to have a partnership. 490 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,960 And as Ray says, if people come without a society, they'll end up running to the door 491 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,840 of the societies on the ground and saying, I've got this problem and we've seen it again 492 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:01,120 and again, please help us. 493 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,040 That's really helpful. 494 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,440 We're next on your hit list of topics. 495 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,440 Well, should we go up the drive and think about the mission tree? 496 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:10,000 Ray. 497 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,000 As in, because we're down in the bowels here, aren't we? 498 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,000 So we're going to go up the drive. 499 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,400 So up there, along the drive. 500 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:17,440 Near the gates. 501 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:18,400 The mission tree. 502 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,080 Ray was probably best placed to talk about the mission tree. 503 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:22,400 Yes. 504 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,400 I think you probably put the silver spade in, didn't you? 505 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:24,800 When we... 506 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,880 I don't think I was allowed near it. 507 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,040 I think the Queen wanted to do it, but we go, no, it's got to Ray. 508 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,960 Yes, sorry, Your Majesty. 509 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:40,480 It was when our first year of teaching, we started teaching in 2006. 510 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,880 So this would be 2009 because it took me a year to write the course. 511 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,600 And 2009, you get it validated and all the rest of it, you know. 512 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:54,720 So 2009 was the first graduation of people who'd done the three-year course. 513 00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:03,360 And they wanted to somehow commemorate that this was now the completion of this degree course. 514 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:12,160 And so the initiative was taken to buy this Canadian red oak tree. 515 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:13,360 Had to be an oak, didn't it? 516 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,680 It had to be an oak because we were at Oak Hill. 517 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,000 And to plant it in the grounds. 518 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,280 And now it has flourished. 519 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,840 And it's been exciting to think that as the tree has grown, 520 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,080 it's a bit like a tree in Narnia, I suppose. 521 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,920 As it has grown, so these people who graduated from the course 522 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,240 have gone out into other places. 523 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:34,880 Yeah. 524 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:35,380 Yeah. 525 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,280 Five continents, 60 different individuals we totaled up, didn't we? 526 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,520 A couple of years ago have now gone out. 527 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,920 Some of them were on deliberately on the cross-cultural course that Ray started. 528 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:53,600 Others were just here to study theology and the Lord called, sent them overseas. 529 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:58,080 So we reckon that there are about 60 people, some of them have come home, 530 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,280 who have gone and served overseas from Oak Hill in the last 20 years, 531 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:02,880 which is wonderful. 532 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,800 And it's been exciting to see where they've gone, what they've done, 533 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:11,440 to see their ministry, the way their personalities have worked out within their cultures. 534 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:19,600 And as Dave said, the other thing is that having brought a mission course into Oak Hill, 535 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,200 people fought mission in a way they hadn't before. 536 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:24,400 The late Mike Ovi. 537 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,960 The last time I think he met the college council before he sadly died, 538 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:35,440 he presented this mind map of where the college should be going. 539 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,120 And right in the center was the great commission. 540 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,880 And he blamed me for bringing this in as the center of the church's life and direction 541 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:46,320 with the mission course. 542 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,320 But as that course had been taught, so other students, 543 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,480 some who one would never have thought about going overseas, 544 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,680 they would go overseas, they've gone. 545 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:03,920 Maybe into church ministries, international churches, 546 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,920 but otherwise to plant churches in different countries in Europe, 547 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,960 as well as to be involved in mission around the world. 548 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:11,460 Yeah. 549 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,960 And as these mission partners have gone and some have come back, 550 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:23,520 we've noticed too that they've often when a society mission agency is looking for a new director, 551 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,640 they often appoint old Oaks who have served overseas and come back. 552 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,040 Steady hand on the tiller, well theologically trained. 553 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,480 And mission societies have not only appointed, 554 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:39,360 but they have praised Oak Hill graduates who have gone into mission overseas. 555 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,560 Because as Ray said earlier, if you send your roots down, 556 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,240 we're back on the tree thing, 557 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,280 if you send your roots down deep theologically and biblically, 558 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:53,200 it gives you endurance, perseverance in ministry. 559 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,520 That's true at home or anywhere around the world, 560 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,160 but especially where life and ministry is tough. 561 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,720 It's important to get alongside the cross-cultural stuff, 562 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:03,920 a deep theological training. 563 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,000 Do you want to say a bit more about that, 564 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,320 how you've seen that happening in individuals or maybe experienced that yourself? 565 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,720 Yes, well from personal experience, I went to Belfast Bible College, 566 00:34:14,720 --> 00:34:17,440 where Ray was one of the teachers. 567 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,120 I wanted to do it as quickly as I could, get the training thing ticked, 568 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,640 get out and save the world. 569 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,640 Now that's what most young, arrogant Western missionaries are like. 570 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,920 And some mission agencies do have that line as well. 571 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:32,640 They do. 572 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,160 But a wise one will say, as my pastor said to me, 573 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:40,480 slow down young man, you stay in the church, prove yourself in the church, 574 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:41,760 a bit like Antioch and... 575 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:43,280 Sorry I interrupt you, carry on. 576 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:43,920 No, it's fine. 577 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,320 And then you train thoroughly. 578 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,960 So I gradually got convinced by that and stayed for four and a half years 579 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,920 at Belfast Bible College. 580 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,160 Not to say everybody needs to stay that length of time, 581 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,320 but it's those, and loved learning about the Word of God more deeply. 582 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,840 Now when the going was tough, there were things that kept me going, 583 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,720 when the going was tough, there were things that kept you there. 584 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:12,400 I'm thinking rural Ethiopian location, difficulties in ministry. 585 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,480 It was a deep theological knowledge and love for God and His Word, 586 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,080 and a sense of personal call confirmed by the church. 587 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,960 They're the things you kind of cling to when the going gets tough. 588 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:24,560 Ray, what do you think? 589 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:26,080 Yes, I mean, I think so. 590 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:32,720 Some years ago, there was a project on resilience 591 00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:38,240 and why missionaries return and who keeps going. 592 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:44,800 And they found a correlation between the years people had done in missionary training 593 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,920 and their resilience on the field. 594 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:49,040 Interesting. 595 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,800 As in the deeper the training before they go, the more resilience. 596 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,480 It wasn't just theology training. 597 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,720 You know, they've just been to a theological college, it didn't make a change. 598 00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:04,560 But if they'd been to a college where they'd also really thought through the training for mission, 599 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,160 and so they had their missiological understanding as well, 600 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:10,640 they were better for the situation. 601 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:11,200 That's right. 602 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:12,240 And that's the remap. 603 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:13,760 Yes, remap. 604 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,160 Remap too, yes. 605 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,600 All nations college, and they had people from all over the world come together 606 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,520 to look at this question of missionary attrition, why people leave the mission field. 607 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,800 Obviously, there are good reasons to leave the mission field, 608 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,600 like if you get to retirement age or the job's done or something like that, you handle. 609 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:36,640 But this is looking at bad reasons, so attrition, which is preventable. 610 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:38,400 And that's what the remap study was. 611 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,400 And that was one of the factors that they isolated, wasn't it? 612 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:43,840 The depth of training. 613 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:44,560 Yeah. 614 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:50,320 So, I mean, when it comes to a church, thinking about someone, 615 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,120 it doesn't need to just be someone young, actually, of course. 616 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:53,620 Sure. 617 00:36:53,620 --> 00:36:59,540 And another area which might, perhaps, I don't know how much more time we've got, 618 00:36:59,540 --> 00:37:05,540 but the other area to get on is talking about professional missionaries, 619 00:37:05,540 --> 00:37:08,020 which we'll perhaps just touch on in a moment. 620 00:37:08,020 --> 00:37:08,340 Yeah. 621 00:37:08,340 --> 00:37:14,660 But when a church says, we believe that God is calling you into world mission, 622 00:37:15,940 --> 00:37:20,260 or someone comes to the church and say, I believe God's calling me, 623 00:37:20,260 --> 00:37:23,940 then if the church say, yes, we'll endorse that call, 624 00:37:24,580 --> 00:37:29,780 the church also should be willing to put their money where their words are 625 00:37:29,780 --> 00:37:34,660 and actually finance them through their training, as well as when they go out to the field. 626 00:37:34,660 --> 00:37:35,220 Yes. 627 00:37:35,220 --> 00:37:38,820 Now, you've written controversially on this in Evangelicals Now, haven't you? 628 00:37:38,820 --> 00:37:39,380 Yes. 629 00:37:39,380 --> 00:37:43,380 An article which says, well, churches, they pay for their local staff, 630 00:37:43,380 --> 00:37:46,500 vicar or minister, whoever it is, youth worker. 631 00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:51,060 But missionaries have to go around lots of churches, cap in hand is how you put it. 632 00:37:51,060 --> 00:37:52,100 This should not be. 633 00:37:52,100 --> 00:37:57,780 And churches should undertake to, well, they should provide all the financial support, 634 00:37:57,780 --> 00:38:02,100 not just for their local clergy or ministers, but for their overseas ministers, too. 635 00:38:03,460 --> 00:38:06,020 And if, I mean, if it's a church that can't afford it themselves, 636 00:38:06,020 --> 00:38:11,220 then they go to their brothers and sisters in other churches and say, look, here is this person. 637 00:38:11,220 --> 00:38:12,340 You haven't got any missionaries. 638 00:38:12,340 --> 00:38:13,060 We have. 639 00:38:13,060 --> 00:38:17,060 We're not in the situation of the church since Singapore, where on average there is one 640 00:38:17,060 --> 00:38:19,140 missionary from every church, at least. 641 00:38:20,180 --> 00:38:22,580 And, you know, churches are all sending. 642 00:38:22,580 --> 00:38:24,500 But can I just move on to another topic? 643 00:38:24,500 --> 00:38:24,980 Please. 644 00:38:26,980 --> 00:38:29,300 We talk about missionaries going out. 645 00:38:30,100 --> 00:38:32,020 What are they going to do when they go? 646 00:38:34,020 --> 00:38:37,940 In many places, the church is doing the task of evangelism very well. 647 00:38:39,140 --> 00:38:41,540 But there's a need for training in discipleship. 648 00:38:41,540 --> 00:38:46,820 And how to live as a Christian within that culture. 649 00:38:47,940 --> 00:38:54,820 So it's very good if some people who go out, maybe in years to come, it will be the majority of people 650 00:38:54,820 --> 00:39:03,140 go out, don't go out as full time gospel ministers, but go in some secular job. 651 00:39:04,660 --> 00:39:08,100 Within that job, they can then evangelize. 652 00:39:08,100 --> 00:39:15,060 And where they can be an example to the national church, the national Christians, of this is what 653 00:39:15,060 --> 00:39:20,260 it means to be a Christian working in this culture. 654 00:39:20,900 --> 00:39:22,340 And that's a very valuable thing. 655 00:39:23,060 --> 00:39:29,300 Of course, the difficulty is that there's many Christians who in this country don't think of 656 00:39:29,300 --> 00:39:35,460 themselves as missionaries within their workplace, as Christian missionaries. 657 00:39:35,460 --> 00:39:39,620 In their workplace, as Christian witnesses in their workplace. 658 00:39:40,820 --> 00:39:45,300 Hudson Taylor, who founded the China Inland Mission, had this idea that people should be 659 00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:49,940 fully supported so they can be fully committed to gospel ministry. 660 00:39:49,940 --> 00:39:53,140 William Carey, of course, had a different view. 661 00:39:53,140 --> 00:39:58,660 He said people should be financed to get themselves out to the country to establish themselves. 662 00:39:58,660 --> 00:39:59,700 Then they should get a job. 663 00:40:01,060 --> 00:40:02,660 And then they should work there. 664 00:40:02,660 --> 00:40:05,780 And so that view goes back as far as Carey. 665 00:40:05,780 --> 00:40:06,340 Yes, yes. 666 00:40:06,340 --> 00:40:08,420 Carey had that idea. 667 00:40:08,420 --> 00:40:10,900 I mean, he was employed in the jute industry. 668 00:40:12,900 --> 00:40:18,900 I mean, in addition to translating the scriptures into 13 different languages and with the team 669 00:40:18,900 --> 00:40:24,420 of 40 languages, he was actually doing a job within a company. 670 00:40:25,940 --> 00:40:30,260 There's a fascinating article on who was William Carey written by two Indians. 671 00:40:30,260 --> 00:40:34,100 And I mean, the work he did was extraordinary. 672 00:40:34,980 --> 00:40:41,700 The way in which he advanced botany within the country and the first botanical gardens 673 00:40:41,700 --> 00:40:46,260 came out of Carey, the first university, et cetera, et cetera. 674 00:40:47,060 --> 00:40:52,180 And of course, the other thing he did, which is a bit controversial, maybe for some, 675 00:40:52,900 --> 00:40:58,420 in addition to translating the scriptures into the Indian languages, he translated the Indian 676 00:40:58,420 --> 00:41:02,980 classics, the Ramayana and the Mahabharata into English. 677 00:41:02,980 --> 00:41:03,540 OK. 678 00:41:03,540 --> 00:41:06,820 Because he says, we need to understand their culture. 679 00:41:07,780 --> 00:41:08,260 Wow. 680 00:41:09,140 --> 00:41:13,300 Can you see in the New Testament any kind of precursors to this? 681 00:41:13,300 --> 00:41:17,460 Sometimes people call it creative access or business as mission, going especially to 682 00:41:17,460 --> 00:41:21,380 countries where it's difficult to get a missionary visa and doing a job. 683 00:41:22,260 --> 00:41:25,700 But in the New Testament, do you see any precursors or? 684 00:41:25,700 --> 00:41:34,020 Well, I mean, there's the apostle Paul with his sewing business, making tents, which is 685 00:41:34,020 --> 00:41:36,260 often they talk about tent making. 686 00:41:37,700 --> 00:41:44,020 But I mean, in the New Testament, you had Christians who were crisscrossing the Roman 687 00:41:44,020 --> 00:41:46,180 Empire in their work. 688 00:41:47,140 --> 00:41:48,660 You've got Lydia, haven't you? 689 00:41:48,660 --> 00:41:49,220 Yes. 690 00:41:49,220 --> 00:41:50,660 The fabric. 691 00:41:50,660 --> 00:41:53,620 I mean, she's dealing in purple. 692 00:41:53,620 --> 00:41:58,900 She is a rich woman with imperial contacts, and she is there. 693 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:26,740 an 694 00:41:58,900 --> 00:41:59,400 Yeah. 695 00:42:00,100 --> 00:42:08,660 You've got other people who have all these connections, you know, the connections into 696 00:42:08,660 --> 00:42:09,620 Herod's household. 697 00:42:09,620 --> 00:42:10,180 Yeah. 698 00:42:10,180 --> 00:42:10,740 Yeah. 699 00:42:10,740 --> 00:42:14,260 And Aquila and Priscilla, of course, they were also tent makers. 700 00:42:14,260 --> 00:42:16,100 And Priscilla, also tent makers, yes. 701 00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:18,020 And they're involved in gospel ministry. 702 00:42:18,020 --> 00:42:20,180 They were moving around cross-culturally. 703 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:29,660 which is fascinating. 704 00:42:29,660 --> 00:42:31,940 A few years ago I had a young couple come to see me here. 705 00:42:31,940 --> 00:42:34,560 They didn't study at Okil Satli, but they came to see me 706 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,560 because they said they had a burden for Japan. 707 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,560 And we talked about all the different ways 708 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,440 they could get to Japan. 709 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,900 But he was working for Hitachi. 710 00:42:44,900 --> 00:42:45,740 Okay. 711 00:42:45,740 --> 00:42:47,260 So I said, could you get a transfer? 712 00:42:47,260 --> 00:42:48,240 Yeah, yeah. 713 00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:51,560 And he applied and got a transfer to Tokyo 714 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,980 to work with Hitachi in Tokyo. 715 00:42:53,980 --> 00:42:55,100 Yeah, yeah. 716 00:42:55,100 --> 00:42:57,320 It was very tough 717 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,480 because Japanese working patterns are very long days. 718 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:02,820 Sure, yeah, yeah. 719 00:43:02,820 --> 00:43:06,160 And, but he was able to get into places. 720 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,320 They could have dinner parties for his Japanese colleagues. 721 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,660 And when after two years his foreign contract ended 722 00:43:15,660 --> 00:43:19,800 and he went on to a local salary and a local position, 723 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,080 then much more they were accepted as being part of 724 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,680 the Japanese team, reaching people that missionaries 725 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:27,340 could never reach. 726 00:43:27,340 --> 00:43:29,840 I don't know of any converts, 727 00:43:33,780 --> 00:43:37,940 but certainly they were building bridges as a Christian. 728 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,920 And he was showing what it meant to work as a Christian 729 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,280 within a Japanese company that other Japanese Christians 730 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:51,120 could then see, yes, you can live here as a salary man, 731 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:51,960 as a Christian. 732 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,080 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 733 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:55,560 Which is very important, I think. 734 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:56,400 I think so. 735 00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,280 And sometimes people in a society are quite suspicious 736 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,000 about, especially a Westerner that might come in, 737 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,600 that doesn't seem to have a proper job like the rest of us. 738 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,640 And this enables people to fit in. 739 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,200 So somebody presents from another country, 740 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,300 people are thinking, well, what do you do? 741 00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:14,320 It's one of the first questions we ask each other, isn't it? 742 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:15,520 What do you do for a living? 743 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:17,200 And people are thinking about that. 744 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:18,920 And if it's not immediately obvious, 745 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,040 it can create some questions. 746 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,560 So there's pros and cons on either side. 747 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,500 The person who is fully supported, 748 00:44:25,500 --> 00:44:27,760 they can focus on their ministry. 749 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,280 Person who's got a local job, they may be so overworked, 750 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,760 they might find it very hard to do any Christian ministry, 751 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:35,440 and you just have to get the balance. 752 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,160 Maybe something in between works quite well part time. 753 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:39,800 Yeah, that's helpful, that's helpful. 754 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,200 We need to always be thinking creatively. 755 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:43,800 This has been tremendous conversation, 756 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:44,640 to bring it into line. 757 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,580 Before we do, I'd love to give you a chance, Dave, 758 00:44:47,580 --> 00:44:49,120 to talk about what you and your wife, Maura, 759 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,400 do with the 219 ministry. 760 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:53,240 Be great to hear a bit about that. 761 00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:56,840 Yeah, so Ephesians 219, Paul is reflecting 762 00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:01,080 on the cosmopolitan nature of Christ's church, 763 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,440 and Jews and Gentiles, barriers broken down 764 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,880 and being together in Christ. 765 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,640 So that's where the ministry gets its name from. 766 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,720 We've added a bit more memorably, teach to reach, 767 00:45:11,720 --> 00:45:15,120 thinking about how to help churches in the UK 768 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:19,520 to connect with multicultural communities around them. 769 00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,360 Very often, churches want to connect with people 770 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:24,600 from other nationalities. 771 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:26,700 I'm thinking of established British churches. 772 00:45:26,700 --> 00:45:28,320 They may have other nationalities already 773 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,580 in the congregation, and they may look at people 774 00:45:30,580 --> 00:45:32,480 from other faiths and other backgrounds around them 775 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:33,680 and think, how do we connect to them? 776 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:35,960 So we just try to build a bit of confidence, 777 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,160 provide resources, get them started. 778 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,840 Very often it's through things like international cafes, 779 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,520 which Friends International are very helpful onto, 780 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,240 with tertiary education level people, 781 00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:50,440 and maybe English classes, depending on what a church 782 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,140 wants to do, and reaching out, not just across the world, 783 00:45:54,140 --> 00:45:56,160 but across the street, cross-culturally. 784 00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:57,600 But then of course, you've got to think, 785 00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,760 what happens if people start becoming Christians 786 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,360 and join the church, which obviously you want? 787 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:03,660 You can't assume they're just going to fit 788 00:46:03,660 --> 00:46:04,960 into a British worship style. 789 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,840 So it throws up lots of questions about integration 790 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:09,520 and diversity in church life too, 791 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,520 but that's a nutshell what 219 tries to help with. 792 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,480 Great, and just so if someone was intrigued, wanted to just 793 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:18,280 see more of the resources. 794 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,280 Yeah, so it's all on the website, just type in 219, 795 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,560 Teach to Reach, and you might get a restaurant 796 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,240 in Los Angeles, but your second hit will probably be 797 00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:29,600 this ministry, yeah. 798 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,080 Tremendous, yeah, tremendous. 799 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,080 Just to finish, it'd be great to hear from each of you. 800 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,160 Thinking, I guess, thinking of a pastor, 801 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,080 they want to be mission-minded, they know that, 802 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,080 the demands of a local church ministry in a sense 803 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,000 always suck them in, but they keep wanting to push out, 804 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:48,320 that heart is there. 805 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,760 What would be a top tip, something that they might know 806 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,080 or have lost sight of, or might just not quite 807 00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:56,880 have occurred to them, a top tip, 808 00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,040 just to keep that front and center? 809 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,800 Well, I think that I'd come back to today's point 810 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,960 that you've just been talking about, really, 811 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,720 who have you got in your local community, 812 00:47:06,720 --> 00:47:08,920 and how are you going to reach out to them? 813 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:13,140 I mean, I know there are parishes in England 814 00:47:13,140 --> 00:47:16,900 where the congregation is a gathered congregation, 815 00:47:16,900 --> 00:47:20,420 really, Anglican churches, but if you look at their parish, 816 00:47:20,420 --> 00:47:23,100 the majority in their parish are actually people 817 00:47:23,100 --> 00:47:26,780 who've come from elsewhere who follow a different faith. 818 00:47:26,780 --> 00:47:28,980 How are you connecting to them? 819 00:47:28,980 --> 00:47:30,660 How are you relating? 820 00:47:30,660 --> 00:47:33,020 So before you think about the question of, 821 00:47:33,020 --> 00:47:35,820 are we going to send missionaries overseas, 822 00:47:35,820 --> 00:47:38,580 what are you going to do on your doorstep? 823 00:47:38,580 --> 00:47:39,420 Thanks, Ray. 824 00:47:39,420 --> 00:47:40,260 Yeah. 825 00:47:40,260 --> 00:47:44,860 Oh, I'd say open up the Bible. 826 00:47:44,860 --> 00:47:49,060 That missional cross-cultural impulse is there, 827 00:47:49,060 --> 00:47:51,380 and if we're faithfully teaching the Bible, 828 00:47:51,380 --> 00:47:52,620 then that's going to come across, 829 00:47:52,620 --> 00:47:54,660 and we need to teach our congregation what the Bible says. 830 00:47:54,660 --> 00:47:56,580 But we have to do it bearing in mind 831 00:47:56,580 --> 00:47:59,200 that we are culturally located ourselves. 832 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,100 I think sometimes we think we're neutral, 833 00:48:01,100 --> 00:48:02,340 we're culturally neutral. 834 00:48:02,340 --> 00:48:04,500 We just read the Bible, and it says what it says, 835 00:48:04,500 --> 00:48:06,580 that's the gospel, but we're failing to realize 836 00:48:06,580 --> 00:48:08,980 that we're actually, in my case, 837 00:48:08,980 --> 00:48:11,100 I'm a British person reading in English 838 00:48:11,100 --> 00:48:13,020 with a certain educational background, 839 00:48:13,020 --> 00:48:15,140 and that will color the way I appreciate it. 840 00:48:15,140 --> 00:48:17,300 And just a bit of a self-awareness there, I think, 841 00:48:17,300 --> 00:48:21,580 helps us to not be so focused on our own concerns 842 00:48:21,580 --> 00:48:23,100 and our own communities 843 00:48:23,100 --> 00:48:25,540 and to think a little bit further afield. 844 00:48:25,540 --> 00:48:26,380 Right. 845 00:48:26,380 --> 00:48:30,180 I mean, I think that in preparing the text of scripture, 846 00:48:30,180 --> 00:48:33,380 it's very good if the pastor can actually find commentaries 847 00:48:33,380 --> 00:48:34,820 from different cultures. 848 00:48:34,820 --> 00:48:36,420 And increasingly they are being written, 849 00:48:36,420 --> 00:48:38,140 and well, I guess they've always been written, 850 00:48:38,140 --> 00:48:40,460 but increasingly they're being published and marketed, 851 00:48:40,460 --> 00:48:41,300 aren't they? 852 00:48:41,300 --> 00:48:42,140 Yes, that's it. 853 00:48:42,140 --> 00:48:45,100 And I mean, I discovered, I mean, 854 00:48:45,100 --> 00:48:47,860 this is not a Christian commentator, 855 00:48:47,860 --> 00:48:51,380 but Jonathan Sacks writing on the Pentateuch. 856 00:48:51,380 --> 00:48:53,380 I've read him, and he asked the questions 857 00:48:53,380 --> 00:48:55,780 I'd never thought about asking of the text, 858 00:48:55,780 --> 00:48:58,740 and it's a new insight into what the scripture's teaching 859 00:48:58,740 --> 00:49:00,340 from a Jewish point of view. 860 00:49:01,380 --> 00:49:03,940 And if you can do that from other cultures as well. 861 00:49:03,940 --> 00:49:04,780 Yeah. 862 00:49:04,780 --> 00:49:05,620 It's wonderful. 863 00:49:05,620 --> 00:49:06,460 Amen. 864 00:49:06,460 --> 00:49:07,300 Wonderful. 865 00:49:07,300 --> 00:49:08,860 Dave, Ray, thank you so much. 866 00:49:08,860 --> 00:49:10,420 I've really enjoyed this conversation. 867 00:49:10,420 --> 00:49:11,740 We're gonna stop now, 868 00:49:11,740 --> 00:49:13,980 but we may just continue talking about this. 869 00:49:13,980 --> 00:49:15,140 Thank you so much. 870 00:49:15,140 --> 00:49:15,980 Thank you. 871 00:49:15,980 --> 00:49:34,980 Thank you.