Hello again and welcome to Deep Roots, the podcast brought to you by Oak Hill College
where we have conversations about theology and ministry. My name is Tim Ward, I'm on the faculty
here and I'm joined by my two of my New Testament colleagues who can introduce themselves.
I'm Sydney Tooth and I teach New Testament and Greek.
I'm David Chure, I'm one of the vice principals and alongside that I
teach New Testament and Greek and some biblical theology.
Tremendous. Now today we are talking about Galatians. Occasionally in these podcasts
we pick on a particular Bible book and today we're into Galatians. About 17 or 18 years ago,
I think when I was a pastor, I preached through Galatians and a number of things really opened
up to me that I hadn't quite seen before in my life. Ever since then, Galatians has meant
quite a bit to me. Just something brief for each of you and where the book of Galatians fits for
you as a Christian and someone who studies scripture. I think for me, Paul is my specialty,
so it's certainly within the family of what I study. But when I was choosing my PhD topic,
I said I wanted to avoid Galatians and Romans, so it's tended to sit in the background a little bit.
Because you're a Thessalonians expert, aren't you?
Yes, yes. But I was just rereading it over lunch and it's a joy, so I'm looking forward to talking
about it. Terrific. David, for you? For me, well, it's been a book that I've taught here at college
over the years. So one of our New Testament courses would work through the book of Galatians,
so it's been a book I've worked on there. Most recently though, I've been preaching through it
at church. So as of last Sunday, we made it into Galatians 5 and I will be finishing that off over
the next month or so. This has been quite a long series, hasn't it, you've been preaching through?
Yeah, so the church I serve at, we've, for a variety of reasons, been slightly thin on
preachers available. And so here I am trying to fill in and serve the church well. And so,
yeah, I had the chance to preach consecutively through Galatians since November.
Terrific. In a minute, we'll begin there. I have two ways of introducing Galatians.
One sublime and one ridiculous. Let's start with the ridiculous one. You probably know this already,
but I remember this being a moment of sort of revelation to me. Galatia is modern day Turkey,
right, isn't it? The Galatians ethnically are related to the Celts and the Gauls way out the
other side, originally apparently central Europe. And some went west to the fringes there and others
went east and ended up in Turkey. You probably know what they're saying. So,
Celt, Gaul, Galatia, that's not an accident. He was the moment of revelation where I realized
that watching Champions League football on TV is not entirely spiritually useless. One of the top
Turkish football teams is called Galatasaray. So I mean, I take it that I don't know, but I take it
that's not an accident. Lessons in New Testament while watching Champions League football.
That's my justification. That's the ridiculous one. His life is a
sublime. Martin Luther from his lectures on Galatians. Here's the first line,
the argument of St Paul's epistle to the Galatians. First of all, we must speak of the argument,
that is of the issue with which Paul deals in this epistle. The argument is this,
Paul wants to establish the doctrine of faith, grace, the forgiveness of sins or Christian
righteousness so that we may have a perfect knowledge and know the difference between
Christian righteousness and all other kinds of righteousness. Now that gets right to the heart
of how central and vital Galatians is in establishing the gospel. And I guess many people will know,
historically, particularly for Luther, it had that very, very particular role in just the
establishment of a right kind of righteousness over against false kinds of righteousness.
Now, there you go, that was the ridiculous and the sublime, David. You've been preaching through.
Just tell us, as you've been working through it again, now from the angle of a preacher,
what are some of the key themes that you've been wanting to pull out and the ways in which
you've been wanting to apply them in the lives of the church family?
Yeah, the sublime is very sublime, isn't it? And the idea of the sublime is that it's
a sublime concept that's adapted into the life of the church family. And the idea that Galatians
speaks to us of God's great gift, his grace towards humanity, is very striking. And that's
been one theme I've tried to bring out. It's there in those very opening words where Paul,
a kind of characteristic way, talks about grace and peace from God the Father. But the way that
is one that God has brought to us, not one that we kind of ascend up to God through some
sort of steps or rituals or obedience, but this idea that God is the one who has come
towards us. And so that's been one thing to try and sound right the way through. It comes
out really beautifully in the start of chapter three where Paul is talking about how you've
begun in a certain way and now are you thinking that you can continue on in a different mode,
you began by the spirit, you're now going to go on by the flesh, that sort of language.
But one of the things that he wants to draw attention to there is who's been at work.
It's not that you've enjoyed these blessings through you working, but rather God has been
working amongst you. So in that way, it's not even the idea that either we are going
to exercise faith or we are going to perform works, rather it's the thought that God has
worked rather than us, that what God has done is to send his son and spirit into the world
and that is the way that we're released from the curse of the law. We are set free. We
are brought into his family. So that consistent idea that it's God who has worked, God who
has come near. Luther picks up on that really beautifully. He talks about how righteousness
is like the rain. There's nothing that the land does to call the rain down, but it comes
from above and then brings good things with it. So that's been one theme. The other would
be to push just a little bit past or beyond Luther. So he in that introduction talks about
how the argument of Galatians is the truth of justification by faith and not another
kind of righteousness. I think that's clearly a really important part of Galatians, but
Paul does go beyond that to say, why is it that God has shown us that grace? Why is it
that he has redeemed us from the curse of the law? It's so that we might enjoy sonship
adoption. And so I think Galatians has helped us enjoy the thought not merely that we are
set free from certain things, set free from condemnation for our sin, but also we enjoy
the freedom of sonship and the knowledge that God is at work in us, that Christ lives in
us. Those blessings of being believers have been ones that I think we've tried to enjoy.
And that's right on the heart in chapters three and four, isn't it? That's where Paul
really spells that out. And on into, I mean, this is, as I said, this is bringing us up
to last Sunday morning. I'm thinking then when Paul says for freedom, you've been set
free. What does he mean by that? It is a freedom from, but it is also the freedom of knowing
that you're not servants or slaves in this household. You are sons and sons united to
Jesus and so as and co-heirs with him. The freedom that says, I belong here in this family.
I'm not a servant who could get pulled in for some appraisal and dismissed. I don't
have to earn my way. Rather, I have the freedom to know I belong. I am at home here. This
God is my father. We reached a little into the, you know, we are all, each and every
one of us, heirs and not spares within God's family, which is a Christian male line and
a very good one. Excellent. A little something for British listeners there.
It's really lovely to hear those reflections, David, and really encouraging to think through
what Galatians has to say to us and the difference that makes for Christian living today. I wonder,
we've talked about a lot of the really helpful positive bits and I wonder Galatians is not
always the easiest book for individual readers, even for scholars. And I think as I read it
sometimes I'm really struck by how different it is from some of Paul's letters. There's
no Thanksgiving. There's some quite harsh statements. And I wonder for you as you're preparing on
preaching through it, how you've dealt with some of those difficulties and thought about
how to communicate it. Yeah.
Who were you wishing would go and emasculate themselves from the pulpit?
Right. So it's a great question. And it is one of the big challenges of preaching Galatians
in part there are just, there's a concentration of very difficult passages to try and interpret.
As you read commentators you find them almost passage after passage saying, this is the
hardest passage in Paul and I don't quite know what it means. And then they move on
to the next one and say something quite similar. So there's a difficulty of Galatians in that
way. It is dense. But also the tone and as you say, astonished that you're so quickly
deserting the one who called you, you foolish Galatians. I wish that these people who are
troubling you would go and emasculate themselves. There's a lot of very strong language there.
And so what do you do? How do you handle that? I think just a few things. I'd love your kind
of thoughts and reflections on it all too. One is I'm always trying to think when preaching
through a letter of Paul, what is his tone towards this congregation? And a somewhat
separate question is where are my congregation at and what might they need to hear? So I
don't simply think my congregation need a good telling off. Galatians is the kind of
one tool I pull out because that's the telling off one. And I've tried to be quite careful
going through Galatians at various points to say Paul is clearly exasperated and concerned
about them. I want to encourage you that I see lots of good fruit and encouragement in
how I see you relating to the Lord and to one another. So you want to make that sort
of distinction. The tone, it can sometimes get exaggerated. So get into chapter four
and there's language of real tenderness and how Paul speaks of himself as a mother, a
longing to be able to speak gently and warmly to his children. He's in the pains of childbirth.
So there's, and in some ways it's striking that Paul the pastor wants to be there. That's
where he wants to be. He doesn't want to be confronting and challenging. He does, he wants
to be that warm father and mother that he speaks about in Thessalonians and elsewhere.
That's the default setting. And that's helpful for the kind of shock jock pastor who thinks
my job here is to work myself into a bit of a lather and shout at them because that's
how change happens. That's not Paul's disposition at all. Then what to do with the fact that
still Paul is very blunt and firm in this letter. I think there's a particular responsibility
that he feels for this church that he planted, that he's been a father and a mother to in
that more direct sense. And he sees them being led off into slavery, back into slavery and
away from the Lord Jesus. And that rightly really troubles and upsets Paul. A friend
of mine who's preached through Galatians, I remember him starting off wanting to say
how deeply we feel the injustice of slavery, how rightly impassioned the abolition movement
was. Paul is in Galatians leading a fight for freedom and a kind of abolition of slavery
movement which rightly calls for passion and energy. I think that can be a help. One of
the challenges then is probably thinking what sort of situation in the life of the church
does call for that? And it's clearly amongst Paul's letters a very rare scenario where
you've got a false teacher intentionally drawing people away from the faith. And so people
at risk of being alienated from Christ. That's very different from a pastoral situation where
the church have decided that they don't think my plan for home groups is the right one or
any other kind of far more trivial thing that occasionally and tragically complications
abhorrated about.
Yeah. What you were saying about Galatians is not just an invitation to the contemporary
picture to stand up and go, you're a bunch of idiots, I'm astonished you're departing
from the gospel. That's incredibly helpful because I think that's a point that reveals
that what is a sort of basically helpful starting point often given to preachers is the purpose
of the passage should be the purpose of the sermon. Needs massively to be qualified. For
myself, I mean, this could be a whole other podcast, but this is why I find the Puritan
pattern in application of distinguishing different spiritual states in front of you and taking
the time to apply very differently to a number of carefully delineated spiritual states is
absolutely crucial. So I mean, in any congregation, I hear in Galatians, I take it, there will
be some people who needs to hear from their pastor, I am astonished that and you're in
whatever are the appropriate words, this is foolish, who's bewitched you? I just, with
all my heart, I long for this not to be happening. But also for a whole bunch of other people
to hear how wonderful it is that you are not departing the gospel in any way I can discern.
And so I think particularly with Galatians making those distinctions and taking the time
to allow people to see my pastor is astonished over me or my pastor is delighted in what
he sees and that's really crucial. But going on from the other thing I would want to ask
is so anything that every Bible study leader or preacher in Galatians is going to have
to work out for themselves in application is so it's about temptation to circumcision.
It's about temptation to follow Jewish religious calendar. At least that's what's referred
to. As you came to identify for people hearing you the contemporary equivalents that either
they are attempting to add to their Christian faith or might be, which are unlikely to be
circumcision and banged under the new moon, what were you identifying?
So we've tried to do that in different ways. One of the ways to do it would be to think
about that difference between being a servant and a son. And so the thought that if I relate
to God thinking of myself more as a servant than a son, then I am going to think of good
things that I enjoy as things that I have earned, things that I've deserved. So there's
just a way of framing our relationship with God that thinks of the... Well, in one of
the early sermons I was trying to help people think why on earth would this be an attractive
thing? And to try and get under the skin of why might it be tempting to start to think
that we make some sort of contribution, that there are things that we need to do, even
if, in that particular case, there are some things that are going to be physically painful
to do. Why would you do that? And I said two things. One is pride, that we, as human beings,
we find it very difficult to receive things freely as gift. We would much rather think
that we have earned it. And that is simply, well, for lots of reasons, but one of them
is...
I haven't bought you anything. Yeah, every birthday.
It allows... Thank you for that little insight into the Ward household there.
That's just an anecdote from visiting somebody else's house.
Oh, of course it is. Any resemblance to a person's living or dead? So why is it attractive
to us? The thought that I would be able to say, I enjoy this thing because I, in some
way, can give myself kudos for deserving it, for meriting it. And therefore, not just to
feel good about myself, but also to be able to say, as I look around other people, I stand
over them. I'm a little bit further ahead from them in the race. And that is, you see
Jesus interacting with the Jews of his day as you realize, actually just there is revealed
something of our common human nature. Then the desire to find almost anything, to be
able to say, this is why God picked me. This is why I'm a little more important around
here and more valued than others around me. It's why Paul is going to spend so much time
in chapters five and six talking about how it's exactly the flesh that is this divisive
judgmental sort of spirit. And actually the fruit of being able to say with Paul that
the son of God loved me and gave himself for me is to be able to say, this is wonderful
gift and I haven't done anything to deserve it. I look around and think, we are all together
being blessed recipients of things that we haven't earned. But the temptation towards
pride in whatever around the life of the church marks somebody out of somehow a little bit
more spiritual, one who's the proper Christian. Asking what that looks like in the life of
the church is one thing. The temptation to pride is behind it. And then also I've just
tried to talk a bit about the temptation to control, to want to be able to stay in control
of our lives. And that makes it really appealing to relate to God as if there were terms and
conditions, as if there were an employment contract that said, I am due to give you these
hours and in return for those hours, I'm entitled to do these things. And I think in the back
of my mind, it is wickedly easy to want to be able to relate to God on those terms because
it means I put something in and I'm guaranteed to get something out. But also I do have that
measure of control. I am able to say, I'm entitled to these things and to clock off
now. In that older brother and the prodigal son sort of moment, that's an instinct that
we've talked a little around. I think one of the most unsettling thoughts in Galatians
is the thought that actually to put your trust in Jesus and to be united with him is to say
that I have died and the life I now live, I live by faith in the Son of God who loves
me and gave himself for me. My life is over and it is not my own.
It is no longer I who live.
Right. And God can therefore, in that I am abandoning all control over my life. And that's
a very different calling. It's one that with Paul is going to mean bearing in our bodies
in some ways the marks of following Jesus and the cost of following Jesus. This message
that he's preaching is one that is really offensive. If he was still preaching circumcision
then why is he still being persecuted? Paul sees that this message that there really is
nothing special about you or me that means God has shown me his mercy and grace is a
really offensive one because we love to think there's something that marks me out.
Thank you. That's massively helpful though. I think that really helps dig into, which
I think really opens up a whole bunch of applications. What you've done there, you've just dug into
what you call it, the spiritual psychology, the spiritual patterns of thought and assumptions
that lie behind the mistakes that the Galatians are making. It's when you tap into that so
often isn't it, that suddenly now you can see, oh goodness me, we do similar sorts of
things. We have similar sorts of problems. Terrific.
I'm going to talk about this just because it was on the cutting room floor. It didn't
make it quite into the sermon but I was struck by it. We paused briefly the series, Come
the End of Galatians 4, where we've been talking a lot about basically in different ways the
gift of a child, God's work in sending his son into the world born under the law. It's
a very Christmassy sort of section. The way that we move from Christmas in our culture,
the way that we move from Christmas, which properly is a great celebration of what God
has done sending his son into the world, we then emerge straight into January and suddenly
start making New Year's resolutions. Our eyes come entirely off the thought of generosity
and gift and grace and straight into how I'm going to put myself right and fix me. That's
just as most people know, that's almost the fastest route from feasting to glum despondency
and just a miserable January even if it weren't for the British weather. That in the Christian
life is just a transition that we easily make. It's a really deforming sort of liturgy culturally
to go from Christmas into resolutions and far better to try and hold onto and remain
thinking of our relationship to God as one of gift of having been brought in as sons
to enjoy that relationship. Which is a good place for epiphany to come in, in the liturgical
year and even thinking about Galatians talking about it as a revelation from God and thinking
about the gift of epiphany I think has made my January much brighter than it is sometimes.
Terrific, yes. We're recording this here in the dark end of January as we are. Thank you.
Now let's move from some of those details of preaching Galatians. We're going to back
up a little bit. We've touched on this a bit already. One of the big topics in Galatians
is justification. Many people watching and listening will be aware of debates that have
long been running about what does justification language of the Bible mean? What does it particularly
mean in Galatians? Let me just kick this off with what I thought I saw when I preached
through Galatians that I found helpful and then you can, you want to correct, affirm
entire rightness of entirely as you see fit. When I preached through Galatians and then
did a bit of work on it afterwards to teach it when I was working at the Cornhill training
course, I was in the end persuaded by some things I found in Doug Moo and his commentary
and other writings on Galatians where he says, I think in effect, language of justification
in Galatians tends towards a sense of vindication, particularly vindication on the last day.
So when one of the key verses, chapter five, verse five is it, when it says, now this is
the NIV, for through the spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which
we hope. I mean, literally in Greek, it's simply the hope of righteousness and that's
how ESV translates it. NIV slightly interprets the righteousness for which we hope, strongly
signalling there is in a sense a righteousness to come, which is not at all denying, Doug
Moo obviously insists, not at all denying an orthodox understanding of justification
now, right standing before God now entirely on the basis of Christ's work, not our own
performance. But there is a sense in which on the last day there will be a universal
declaration of that which hasn't yet happened. There will be, because of that, a universal
vindication in the eyes of the whole world for every believer, which right now we don't
have and that's a source of difficulty and suffering for us very often. So that's his
argument. Galatians is particularly looking forward to that. And key evidence would be,
his key accusation against them is in beginning of chapter three, is that they are going on
in the wrong way, having begun in the spirit. So they've begun the right way. Why are you
now continuing by flesh and not by spirit? Is what effectively he says at the beginning
of three. So the focus is on how you go on and in the end, Galatians, if I've read
me rightly, is about how a Christian who has been justified in Christ remains in that justified
standing or perhaps more strictly we should say, should continue to live in a way that
demonstrates that they do indeed have that right standing before God now. So as to be
confident on the last day. And Paul's answer is, it's not going to be by adding works of
law or any other obedience to faith for confidence of right standing. It will be as chapter five
also say, faith expressing itself in love, allowing the spirit with whom you've begun
now to bring about a life of godliness and righteousness in you as you walk with the
spirit rather. So that would be my, if I've got it right, a kind of potted summary of
what I was persuaded of and I found particularly in Doug Mu. Let me throw that in there as
what one preacher got to some years ago. What would you do? Pick that up and run with it
or throw it away, whatever you want.
From a Galatians perspective, I'll be interested to see what David has to say, but I'm not
meant to mention Thessalonians in this podcast.
No, you can't mention Thessalonians. I think it tracks really nicely with a lot of the
way Thessalonians talks about salvation as a current but future event. And it is about
standing blameless before the Lord on the day he comes. And you're either in the group
that is saved or is destroyed. And I hadn't actually, until you said that, connected that
with Galatians very much about Galatians being more about what that looks like in the here
and now and how you live between now and then as well. But I would be interested to hear
your take on it, David.
Yeah, I think one of the really helpful lines from Tom Wright actually on justification
is to talk about how the way that Paul thinks of justification is a final judgment sort
of verdict of God. Are people condemned or justified, condemned or acquitted, condemned
or vindicated? That is a kind of end time discussion. And what for Paul is happening
in the gospel is that that verdict is brought into the present. Not to replace that kind
of future verdict but for people to know that I am justified now in the present and therefore
certain of that future vindication. So living between those two points is written across
all of Paul's letters. So you'd see it in Romans 5 verse 1, since we've been justified
and we enjoy these blessings, justification very much something in the past that we can
now speak of other blessings flowing from. But come the end of chapter 8, that thought
of who is the one who is going to vindicate, who can justify, who is going to condemn,
that thought of on the final day we know that we will be justified publicly, visibly because
we have been justified already by faith. So Christian life lived between those two and
that thought that there is that public vindication of God, of his son and of his people, all
of that vindication to come. Is Galatians kind of pushing towards that future pole?
I think, well, Doug and me was careful to say there are clearly places where a kind
of past justification is in view. Abraham believed God, credited to him as righteousness.
And I think it would be strange if Paul were kind of moving entirely away from that sort
of framework of being justified in the present and therefore confident of vindication in
the future. There are, as you say in chapter 5, I think that's a clear place where that
idea of a righteousness that is hope for us is something that is there in the future.
And those last few chapters pushing towards that and saying what does it look like to
live knowing that that is the future. And so with that hope in view, faith works its
way out through love. There's Paul's three favourite words all over again.
So on 5.5, do you think the NIV has basically interpreted rightly? So original Greek, hope
of righteousness and ESV just catches that. Now that could be taken, hope of righteousness
could be taken to be righteousness only backward looking and referring to the present, but
that will give us things to hope for in the future. And the NIV seems not to be taking
that line, but to say that there's an element of the thing called, which it translates here
to righteousness, there's an element of that which we still hope for and therefore is still
to come and that would be final universal declaration of vindication.
Yeah I think that's a good way to translate it. It is certainly not in contradiction with
what Paul says elsewhere of both a past and a future hope and expectation for that. And
I think it helps us with those last couple of chapters in Galatians where at worst they
can be characterised as, well we've talked a lot about faith, we don't need to get the
misunderstanding that it's okay to go and do whatever you want, so we'd better just
put in some ethical instruction at the end or something.
And in my memory of reading commentaries, some really brilliant commentaries by some
great wonderful people who I appreciate a lot basically say that about chapters five
and six, which I increasingly found not persuasive. So better is?
So better is the thought that Paul is talking about how it is that we can be confident of
that today, even if that reference in the start of chapter five isn't to that justification
that is to come. Paul is talking through chapters five and six about those who can be confident
of entering the kingdom of God and it is those in whom the spirit is at work bearing fruit
and so to commit ourselves to that with that hope in store. So the way that those chapters
aren't simply a kind of remedial, let's be sure they don't go off the rails ethically
built into Paul's gospel that he's shared with them is the thought of entering into
the kingdom on that final day and that what God has done through his son and his spirit
is sufficient to get you there. It's why Paul doesn't talk about either the works of the
flesh or your works in the power of the spirit or something, the fact that it is the fruit
of the spirit in contrast to the works of the flesh and wanting to emphasize what God
has given you in his son and in his spirit is sufficient to get you there. That's the
thought which I think is sown through those earlier chapters in ways that we don't always
pay attention to. So I think it's easy to think Galatians one to four, you're justified
by faith and then the kind of idea of a transformed Christian life just gets tacked on on the
end.
There was a sort of Roman style heading off someone who might say well let's sin so grace
may abound. We say chapters five and six are just not that at all.
So the idea that Christ lives in me, Galatians 2.20 and then when Paul in Galatians four
wants to talk about how, it's this curious mixed metaphor, he's in the pains of childbirth
until Christ is formed in you. So it's actually their bodies and lives in which Christ is
being formed. But that idea of the Christian life not simply being set free from the punishment
for sin and the confidence of acquittal but also the great gift of Christ dwelling in
us, being formed in us and what Galatians five in particular is going to do is help
us to see that is the ministry of the spirit. He's already been the one who brings us into
sonship and adoption and inheritance. He's also the one through whom Christ is formed
in us. And so that's also I think what energises those last couple of chapters. Not just that
question of how are you going to endure until that final day but let's continue exploring
what God has done by his son and his spirit in you.
Tim, do you want to ask any more about justification?
Yes, but not now. Not now. Yeah, we're about to head into a topic, aren't we, about which
I genuinely know nothing and you too now know your stuff. So Sydney, kick us off.
Yeah, well, with Galatians, Galatians, I guess along with Romans are the two that talk the
most about justification and because of that they've been a real centre point of Pauline
scholarship and debates and there's various bits of that we could talk about but I think
one that while we have David with us to talk about and because Galatians was the starting
point for a lot of this is what's called the apocalyptic Paul, the apocalyptic interpretation
of Paul and I'll let David talk about it a bit more but I think some things in Galatians
that really stand out for me sometimes are the ways Paul talks about receiving the gospel
as a revelation which is apocalyptic language in some texts and as well the way he talks
about when he's talking about slavery it's being free from the elemental principles of
this world and those are some of the trickier bits that have been picked up by scholars
and so I'm going to hand over to David to give us a little introduction to that.
Okay, yes, the idea that Paul is an apocalyptic writer or thinker is one that's been championed
in the last particularly the last kind of 10 years or so it's become a really popular
idea in a lot of New Testament scholarship. When people hear the word apocalyptic they
might think of a few different things they might think the idea of the future return
of Jesus that's apocalyptic kind of idea of eschatology and that's in the past people
have meant that those sorts of ideas a little bit more there's an author called J. Christian
Becker who wrote a wonderful book called Paul.
The Apocalyptic Triumph.
Yeah, that's right so there's a couple of books that either just Paul the apostle or
the apocalyptic triumph of God is the sub-script to one of his works and he's emphasizing very
much the future return of Jesus. You'd be hard pressed though to emphasize that and
to do it on the back of Galatians given that apart from one or two verses that we've discussed
already it actually doesn't talk much about the future return of Jesus. Other people have
thought if you're going to talk about Paul as an apocalyptic theologian then that must
have something to do with Jewish apocalypses texts that speak of revelations being made
and some people have wanted to make that connection to Galatians where Paul talks about how that
God's God in his grace was pleased to reveal his son to me and the verb is apocalyptic
to reveal to make known and people thought that might be a link in. As it happens though
the idea that Paul is apocalyptic doesn't really track with either the future return
of Jesus or those Jewish texts with apocalypses like the book of Revelation. They go in a
slightly different direction. They want to emphasize for Paul his gospel is apocalyptic
in the sense that it speaks of a humanity enslaved by hostile powers that God liberates
us from. For the apocalyptic movement if there's one basic idea to Paul it is that human beings
are enslaved to the law, to sin, to death, to the flesh and those are almost characters
in a drama for Paul that enslave humanity and what they want to argue is that for Paul
the gospel is not about human beings being forgiven for things that they've done wrong,
it's about God setting humanity free from these enslaving powers. And so in Galatians
that is clearly there's some language there in Galatians 3 about Paul rescuing us from
slavery, to the law, enslaved to sin in some respects and that idea of the elementary principles
that we might be enslaved to. One of the other themes that they want to draw on is more of
a question of eschatology and the timings of salvation. Wanting to emphasize though
very often a very definitive in Jesus God has changed everything to say that really
you divide the whole of human history into a before and an after. That there is a before,
then Jesus has come and that is the great turning point. So in all of this one of the
little battles that runs is between some people who want to emphasize Paul as a very kind
of salvation historical thinker that there are lots of points on his timeline that build
up to the coming of Jesus. And the apocalyptic crowd one of the things they want to emphasize
is no there really is a very definitive break. One of the concerns about the movement is
just how far they're prepared to go in speaking about that. So they will essentially talk
about God stepping into a world that has fallen out of his control and him coming into the
world is him regaining control. And there are some obvious issues with that. What do
you want to ask?
First of all the apocalyptic crowd sounds like an evening that you really would or would
not want to go to depending on how up for it you really were. For those who are interested
in these things the key names in scholarship.
Yeah great so J. Louis Martin is one of the kind of founding fathers of that modern group.
He wrote a commentary on Galatians for the anchor series and in lots of ways is looked
to as a father figure. Then there are a number who have worked with him and studied under
him so Martinus de Boer has written another commentary on the New Testament library and
commentary on Galatians. He's written a PhD on Romans as well. Beverly Goventa is another
New Testament scholar who's written on Luke and various other topics but has written a
good amount on Galatians and on Romans and advancing a sort of similar idea that in Romans
Paul is speaking about sin and death there as these cosmic terrorists as these tyrants
that we need setting free from. And so she's very influential. And then Douglas Campbell
is one of the other kind of leading proponents. There are some disagreements between them
but Doug Campbell writes a lot about this. So in one of those little four views on books
that come out they put one out on four views of the Apostle Paul and there was an evangelical,
a Catholic, a liberal and then the fourth one interestingly it wasn't the New Perspective
which has been a big discussion that some will have heard of. The title to the last
chapter was the Post New Perspective Perspective catchily titled and that was written by Doug
Campbell and it was a treatment almost entirely of Romans 5 to 8 through that sort of lens.
So these are kind of the cool new kids on the block of pushing the boundaries on Paul's
book. I mean Sydney from your perspective, overviewing the whole of Paul, what do you
make of this kind of thing? I think there is a lot of actually quite interesting and
helpful stuff that comes out of the apocalyptic school. I think what's interesting as you've
said David is they're not agreed actually among themselves on what it means and so it's
not completely consistent and I think working in Thessalonians it was quite interesting
that none of them make anything of first or second Thessalonians in their work. Shame
on them, shame on them. Well those are two of the arguably more apocalyptic in the traditional
sense of using Jewish apocalyptic terms and if they want to go down the eschatology route
having to do with that. And so it very much has been centred more on the justification
side and that's why it's been centred around Romans and Galatians. I think some of the
helpful things actually are thinking about, you can weigh in on whether you agree with
this or not, but I think some of the helpful things are sin is an individual problem but
it's not just an individual problem either and I think some of what I've found more helpful
from the school is taking you to have a bigger view of how sin has impacted the world as
a whole and I wouldn't go along with a lot of what they argue but I think sometimes with
students I've tried to show them some of that helpful side of thinking about more systemic
issues of sin or how that's impacted and working that alongside the individual impact as well.
Yeah and those two things are often played off against each other aren't they, as if
it's a zero sum game the more you increase one the less you'll downplay the other. But
that's just silly isn't it, you can just see both are true I think.
Yeah and in fact some of the really interesting pushback to some of the apocalyptic school
has been well Jewish apocalypse could quite happily hold together the individual and the
collective. So you don't need to make them oppose each other either.
I mean if you're preaching on the early verses of Galatians and you come to, gave himself
four our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, that's really going to fill out
isn't it the kind of things you might talk about, have I got that right?
It is, I mean for J. Louis Martin it's interesting what he'll argue on that verse in particular
is he'll say Paul is having to handle some traditional material, the idea of forgiveness
of sins is more traditional but what Paul is doing in that verse is really signalling
where these churches might have started and what he really wants to move them onto. So
the idea that forgiveness of sins it's traditional I kind of have to quote it but really I'm
interested in this idea of being rescued from the present evil age and that's the great
liberation that's happened setting aside the idea of forgiveness of sins and it produces
in Romans a variety of really quite curious readings where they're trying to say Paul
for the first few chapters is dealing with more traditional views of atonement but really
what he wants to get to is Romans 5 to 8 which they want to argue is now a kind of gear change
into this idea of a plight defined by enslavement to hostile powers and in most of the writings
it's right to acknowledge there's some variety, there are a few things that they do basically
hold in common. The idea that God's wrath at sin and the significance of individual
sins is something to really downplay that human beings are fundamentally enslaved victims
of these powers and if God is wanting to take on anything or is going to bring anything
to judgment it's those powers not human beings and so they also all want to affirm in the
end a universal salvation that God is going to liberate all of humanity from these powers
so as Sydney said there's real truth in the fact that for Paul the human plight isn't
simply the things that we do wrong in a kind of simplistic way. The human situation is
much more complex than that. In some ways my concern is that they've still made it very
simple they've actually just boiled it down to we are enslaved and we need setting free
and actually the ways in which we are complicit in moral situations which also aren't entirely
under our control you know the very traditional idea of the world the flesh and the devil
actually gets towards a much richer a much more kind of real and complex account of the
human situation than what they're offering I think. Terrific thank you that's really
really helpful. We ought to bring this to land let's try this. I'll go first on this
one so while I'm talking you can have a chance to think because I haven't given you very
detailed warning of this. Just something personally for ourselves as Christians or maybe using
Galatians in ministry to others perhaps the sort of the spiritual state or confusion or
turmoil that you might find yourself in where you think it's going to be Galatians that's
most going to help me here. For me it's when I think about my own sanctification you know
and I guess some of us believers we could oscillate between thinking it's going incredibly
well I'm clearly one of the godliest people in my church family through to it's going
incredibly badly is there any discernible growth and then but then now chapters five
and six as you've been describing them David the fruit of the spirit is these things the
fruit of the spirit is these things you began with the spirit if there is in you a walking
in the spirit this is what the spirit will bring this is just what life in the spirit
will bring we of course we have to work and cooperate with him but it's not that's not
attempting to do the impossible the call to godliness is a call that God has made entirely
possible and he will bring it about in us if we continue to walk in the spirit I find
the particular chapter five and six just hugely encouraging in yes in redoubling my efforts
encouraging media to go yet again in cooperating with the spirit because the Lord the Lord
is enabling and will enable what he calls us to that seems to be really strong at heart
of five and six and I found that hugely encouraging lovely to you David.
There are two and I can't pick between them but I'll be but I'll be quick the Galatians
two and verse 20 just those wonderfully simple words so I think in a letter where there are
lots of complex issues to work through and that we can do it in almost all words of one
syllable the son of God who loved me and gave himself for me the idea I think it's Luther
isn't it he talks about what are the kind of most important words in the Bible is it
does the gospel come down to two prepositions does it come down to two verbs and the idea
that it comes down to pronouns the difference between the son of God who gave himself and
the son of God who gave himself for me so that I think just when I've when I've asked
students what what do you think sustains Paul in a ministry that is exhausting in so many
ways and and so testing I think that that sense that he never loses of the love of God
that that he individually has experienced and known is a really is a really helpful
thought to me and and then the the Hagar and Sarah story it's it's obviously it's one
that and where Paul talks about this can be read in some way allegorically and lots of
debate and lots of good stuff written about it but I I love the fact that Paul just constantly
turns to those stories in the Old Testament where we see something of human barrenness
and impotence where there is there is basically nothing on the human side that's going to
bring any good out of this and it's in it's exactly into those situations that God moves
to bring life and it's a Romans four sort of thought as well that God is the one who
takes nothing and makes it something takes dead things and makes them alive who raised
the Lord Jesus from the dead who to Abraham and Sarah who whose bodies were so advanced
in age there was no life left and that's just in in all of the situations in life that I
think I I don't even understand that in fully I there's certainly nothing that lies in my
power to do to fix it we don't lose hope at that point precisely because God is a God
who who takes nothing and makes it something and brings life out of death wonderful I think
Tim mine is going to follow yours very closely and one thing I was really struck by when
I was rereading this today was in chapter six and the start of chapter six verses three
and four in particular if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing he deceives
himself each one should test his own actions then he can take pride in himself without
comparing himself to somebody else for each should carry his own load and thinking about
that in relation to some of what you were talking about with life by the spirit and
the fact that we have the spirit is a great source of confidence and comfort in not having
to rely on our own ability to achieve things and also not having to measure ourselves up
constantly and that's that's certainly a temptation for myself is thinking oh I'm not as good
I don't know as much I haven't done this as well and actually just right here having
chapter six say and on the one hand don't think of yourself too much but on the other
hand just look at yourself and compare yourself in your own circumstances and situations and
what God has given you that's what you should be evaluating your progress in your faithfulness
is in the context of your own life and I've found that really helpful going into new situations
difficult situations and knowing actually living by the spirit as Galatians says is
seeking to produce the fruit of the spirit that Galatians five talks about and and that
that's that's a gift from God it's not me myself achieving that either wonderful that's
a great place to end thank you both very much