1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,280 Hello again and welcome to Deep Roots, the podcast brought to you by Oak Hill College 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:10,880 where we have conversations about theology and ministry. My name is Tim Ward, I'm on the faculty 3 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:16,240 here and I'm joined by my two of my New Testament colleagues who can introduce themselves. 4 00:00:16,240 --> 00:00:19,840 I'm Sydney Tooth and I teach New Testament and Greek. 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,800 I'm David Chure, I'm one of the vice principals and alongside that I 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,360 teach New Testament and Greek and some biblical theology. 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:32,960 Tremendous. Now today we are talking about Galatians. Occasionally in these podcasts 8 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:38,960 we pick on a particular Bible book and today we're into Galatians. About 17 or 18 years ago, 9 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:43,520 I think when I was a pastor, I preached through Galatians and a number of things really opened 10 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:49,360 up to me that I hadn't quite seen before in my life. Ever since then, Galatians has meant 11 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:55,280 quite a bit to me. Just something brief for each of you and where the book of Galatians fits for 12 00:00:55,280 --> 00:01:04,080 you as a Christian and someone who studies scripture. I think for me, Paul is my specialty, 13 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:12,560 so it's certainly within the family of what I study. But when I was choosing my PhD topic, 14 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:17,200 I said I wanted to avoid Galatians and Romans, so it's tended to sit in the background a little bit. 15 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:19,760 Because you're a Thessalonians expert, aren't you? 16 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:27,200 Yes, yes. But I was just rereading it over lunch and it's a joy, so I'm looking forward to talking 17 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:32,800 about it. Terrific. David, for you? For me, well, it's been a book that I've taught here at college 18 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:37,440 over the years. So one of our New Testament courses would work through the book of Galatians, 19 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,680 so it's been a book I've worked on there. Most recently though, I've been preaching through it 20 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:49,120 at church. So as of last Sunday, we made it into Galatians 5 and I will be finishing that off over 21 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:53,200 the next month or so. This has been quite a long series, hasn't it, you've been preaching through? 22 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:58,160 Yeah, so the church I serve at, we've, for a variety of reasons, been slightly thin on 23 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:04,080 preachers available. And so here I am trying to fill in and serve the church well. And so, 24 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:10,000 yeah, I had the chance to preach consecutively through Galatians since November. 25 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:15,440 Terrific. In a minute, we'll begin there. I have two ways of introducing Galatians. 26 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,600 One sublime and one ridiculous. Let's start with the ridiculous one. You probably know this already, 27 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:27,040 but I remember this being a moment of sort of revelation to me. Galatia is modern day Turkey, 28 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:34,880 right, isn't it? The Galatians ethnically are related to the Celts and the Gauls way out the 29 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:39,920 other side, originally apparently central Europe. And some went west to the fringes there and others 30 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:43,040 went east and ended up in Turkey. You probably know what they're saying. So, 31 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:49,040 Celt, Gaul, Galatia, that's not an accident. He was the moment of revelation where I realized 32 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:54,320 that watching Champions League football on TV is not entirely spiritually useless. One of the top 33 00:02:54,320 --> 00:03:02,320 Turkish football teams is called Galatasaray. So I mean, I take it that I don't know, but I take it 34 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:07,280 that's not an accident. Lessons in New Testament while watching Champions League football. 35 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,480 That's my justification. That's the ridiculous one. His life is a 36 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,160 sublime. Martin Luther from his lectures on Galatians. Here's the first line, 37 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:19,920 the argument of St Paul's epistle to the Galatians. First of all, we must speak of the argument, 38 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:24,960 that is of the issue with which Paul deals in this epistle. The argument is this, 39 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:31,120 Paul wants to establish the doctrine of faith, grace, the forgiveness of sins or Christian 40 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:36,000 righteousness so that we may have a perfect knowledge and know the difference between 41 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:42,160 Christian righteousness and all other kinds of righteousness. Now that gets right to the heart 42 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:47,440 of how central and vital Galatians is in establishing the gospel. And I guess many people will know, 43 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:54,240 historically, particularly for Luther, it had that very, very particular role in just the 44 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:59,760 establishment of a right kind of righteousness over against false kinds of righteousness. 45 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:04,960 Now, there you go, that was the ridiculous and the sublime, David. You've been preaching through. 46 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:10,320 Just tell us, as you've been working through it again, now from the angle of a preacher, 47 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:16,000 what are some of the key themes that you've been wanting to pull out and the ways in which 48 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,040 you've been wanting to apply them in the lives of the church family? 49 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:27,280 Yeah, the sublime is very sublime, isn't it? And the idea of the sublime is that it's 50 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:37,200 a sublime concept that's adapted into the life of the church family. And the idea that Galatians 51 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:45,760 speaks to us of God's great gift, his grace towards humanity, is very striking. And that's 52 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:51,120 been one theme I've tried to bring out. It's there in those very opening words where Paul, 53 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:57,200 a kind of characteristic way, talks about grace and peace from God the Father. But the way that 54 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,880 is one that God has brought to us, not one that we kind of ascend up to God through some 55 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:06,900 sort of steps or rituals or obedience, but this idea that God is the one who has come 56 00:05:06,900 --> 00:05:13,400 towards us. And so that's been one thing to try and sound right the way through. It comes 57 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,900 out really beautifully in the start of chapter three where Paul is talking about how you've 58 00:05:17,900 --> 00:05:22,740 begun in a certain way and now are you thinking that you can continue on in a different mode, 59 00:05:22,740 --> 00:05:26,940 you began by the spirit, you're now going to go on by the flesh, that sort of language. 60 00:05:26,940 --> 00:05:32,120 But one of the things that he wants to draw attention to there is who's been at work. 61 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:37,800 It's not that you've enjoyed these blessings through you working, but rather God has been 62 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:44,400 working amongst you. So in that way, it's not even the idea that either we are going 63 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:49,260 to exercise faith or we are going to perform works, rather it's the thought that God has 64 00:05:49,260 --> 00:05:56,800 worked rather than us, that what God has done is to send his son and spirit into the world 65 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:02,160 and that is the way that we're released from the curse of the law. We are set free. We 66 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:09,440 are brought into his family. So that consistent idea that it's God who has worked, God who 67 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:15,800 has come near. Luther picks up on that really beautifully. He talks about how righteousness 68 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:22,340 is like the rain. There's nothing that the land does to call the rain down, but it comes 69 00:06:22,340 --> 00:06:31,000 from above and then brings good things with it. So that's been one theme. The other would 70 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:37,460 be to push just a little bit past or beyond Luther. So he in that introduction talks about 71 00:06:37,460 --> 00:06:41,920 how the argument of Galatians is the truth of justification by faith and not another 72 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:48,400 kind of righteousness. I think that's clearly a really important part of Galatians, but 73 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:54,360 Paul does go beyond that to say, why is it that God has shown us that grace? Why is it 74 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:59,680 that he has redeemed us from the curse of the law? It's so that we might enjoy sonship 75 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:08,960 adoption. And so I think Galatians has helped us enjoy the thought not merely that we are 76 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:16,560 set free from certain things, set free from condemnation for our sin, but also we enjoy 77 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:23,280 the freedom of sonship and the knowledge that God is at work in us, that Christ lives in 78 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:30,280 us. Those blessings of being believers have been ones that I think we've tried to enjoy. 79 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,680 And that's right on the heart in chapters three and four, isn't it? That's where Paul 80 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:38,280 really spells that out. And on into, I mean, this is, as I said, this is bringing us up 81 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:43,400 to last Sunday morning. I'm thinking then when Paul says for freedom, you've been set 82 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:48,880 free. What does he mean by that? It is a freedom from, but it is also the freedom of knowing 83 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:56,280 that you're not servants or slaves in this household. You are sons and sons united to 84 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:06,360 Jesus and so as and co-heirs with him. The freedom that says, I belong here in this family. 85 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,920 I'm not a servant who could get pulled in for some appraisal and dismissed. I don't 86 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:21,880 have to earn my way. Rather, I have the freedom to know I belong. I am at home here. This 87 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:28,800 God is my father. We reached a little into the, you know, we are all, each and every 88 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:35,080 one of us, heirs and not spares within God's family, which is a Christian male line and 89 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,920 a very good one. Excellent. A little something for British listeners there. 90 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:46,480 It's really lovely to hear those reflections, David, and really encouraging to think through 91 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:53,720 what Galatians has to say to us and the difference that makes for Christian living today. I wonder, 92 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:59,720 we've talked about a lot of the really helpful positive bits and I wonder Galatians is not 93 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:09,240 always the easiest book for individual readers, even for scholars. And I think as I read it 94 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,040 sometimes I'm really struck by how different it is from some of Paul's letters. There's 95 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:19,760 no Thanksgiving. There's some quite harsh statements. And I wonder for you as you're preparing on 96 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:24,600 preaching through it, how you've dealt with some of those difficulties and thought about 97 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,040 how to communicate it. Yeah. 98 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,960 Who were you wishing would go and emasculate themselves from the pulpit? 99 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:38,800 Right. So it's a great question. And it is one of the big challenges of preaching Galatians 100 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:44,240 in part there are just, there's a concentration of very difficult passages to try and interpret. 101 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,360 As you read commentators you find them almost passage after passage saying, this is the 102 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,760 hardest passage in Paul and I don't quite know what it means. And then they move on 103 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,480 to the next one and say something quite similar. So there's a difficulty of Galatians in that 104 00:09:55,480 --> 00:10:02,480 way. It is dense. But also the tone and as you say, astonished that you're so quickly 105 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,840 deserting the one who called you, you foolish Galatians. I wish that these people who are 106 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:12,360 troubling you would go and emasculate themselves. There's a lot of very strong language there. 107 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:19,320 And so what do you do? How do you handle that? I think just a few things. I'd love your kind 108 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:25,800 of thoughts and reflections on it all too. One is I'm always trying to think when preaching 109 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:30,860 through a letter of Paul, what is his tone towards this congregation? And a somewhat 110 00:10:30,860 --> 00:10:37,480 separate question is where are my congregation at and what might they need to hear? So I 111 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:42,480 don't simply think my congregation need a good telling off. Galatians is the kind of 112 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:48,500 one tool I pull out because that's the telling off one. And I've tried to be quite careful 113 00:10:48,500 --> 00:10:53,460 going through Galatians at various points to say Paul is clearly exasperated and concerned 114 00:10:53,460 --> 00:10:59,040 about them. I want to encourage you that I see lots of good fruit and encouragement in 115 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:04,500 how I see you relating to the Lord and to one another. So you want to make that sort 116 00:11:04,500 --> 00:11:12,360 of distinction. The tone, it can sometimes get exaggerated. So get into chapter four 117 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:19,640 and there's language of real tenderness and how Paul speaks of himself as a mother, a 118 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:26,160 longing to be able to speak gently and warmly to his children. He's in the pains of childbirth. 119 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:31,160 So there's, and in some ways it's striking that Paul the pastor wants to be there. That's 120 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:37,440 where he wants to be. He doesn't want to be confronting and challenging. He does, he wants 121 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:42,840 to be that warm father and mother that he speaks about in Thessalonians and elsewhere. 122 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:49,440 That's the default setting. And that's helpful for the kind of shock jock pastor who thinks 123 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,240 my job here is to work myself into a bit of a lather and shout at them because that's 124 00:11:53,240 --> 00:12:00,520 how change happens. That's not Paul's disposition at all. Then what to do with the fact that 125 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:09,520 still Paul is very blunt and firm in this letter. I think there's a particular responsibility 126 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:13,600 that he feels for this church that he planted, that he's been a father and a mother to in 127 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:20,720 that more direct sense. And he sees them being led off into slavery, back into slavery and 128 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:27,200 away from the Lord Jesus. And that rightly really troubles and upsets Paul. A friend 129 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:31,600 of mine who's preached through Galatians, I remember him starting off wanting to say 130 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:41,040 how deeply we feel the injustice of slavery, how rightly impassioned the abolition movement 131 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:47,380 was. Paul is in Galatians leading a fight for freedom and a kind of abolition of slavery 132 00:12:47,380 --> 00:12:59,360 movement which rightly calls for passion and energy. I think that can be a help. One of 133 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,720 the challenges then is probably thinking what sort of situation in the life of the church 134 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:09,760 does call for that? And it's clearly amongst Paul's letters a very rare scenario where 135 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:16,440 you've got a false teacher intentionally drawing people away from the faith. And so people 136 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:21,920 at risk of being alienated from Christ. That's very different from a pastoral situation where 137 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,640 the church have decided that they don't think my plan for home groups is the right one or 138 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:31,800 any other kind of far more trivial thing that occasionally and tragically complications 139 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:32,800 abhorrated about. 140 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:40,760 Yeah. What you were saying about Galatians is not just an invitation to the contemporary 141 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,720 picture to stand up and go, you're a bunch of idiots, I'm astonished you're departing 142 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,920 from the gospel. That's incredibly helpful because I think that's a point that reveals 143 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:55,960 that what is a sort of basically helpful starting point often given to preachers is the purpose 144 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:03,200 of the passage should be the purpose of the sermon. Needs massively to be qualified. For 145 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:09,040 myself, I mean, this could be a whole other podcast, but this is why I find the Puritan 146 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:16,880 pattern in application of distinguishing different spiritual states in front of you and taking 147 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:23,800 the time to apply very differently to a number of carefully delineated spiritual states is 148 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:29,360 absolutely crucial. So I mean, in any congregation, I hear in Galatians, I take it, there will 149 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:36,200 be some people who needs to hear from their pastor, I am astonished that and you're in 150 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:43,080 whatever are the appropriate words, this is foolish, who's bewitched you? I just, with 151 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:48,560 all my heart, I long for this not to be happening. But also for a whole bunch of other people 152 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:56,280 to hear how wonderful it is that you are not departing the gospel in any way I can discern. 153 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:02,440 And so I think particularly with Galatians making those distinctions and taking the time 154 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:09,000 to allow people to see my pastor is astonished over me or my pastor is delighted in what 155 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:15,560 he sees and that's really crucial. But going on from the other thing I would want to ask 156 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,560 is so anything that every Bible study leader or preacher in Galatians is going to have 157 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:24,960 to work out for themselves in application is so it's about temptation to circumcision. 158 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:30,880 It's about temptation to follow Jewish religious calendar. At least that's what's referred 159 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:37,920 to. As you came to identify for people hearing you the contemporary equivalents that either 160 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:45,200 they are attempting to add to their Christian faith or might be, which are unlikely to be 161 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:53,800 circumcision and banged under the new moon, what were you identifying? 162 00:15:53,800 --> 00:16:01,240 So we've tried to do that in different ways. One of the ways to do it would be to think 163 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:10,640 about that difference between being a servant and a son. And so the thought that if I relate 164 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:19,900 to God thinking of myself more as a servant than a son, then I am going to think of good 165 00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:26,200 things that I enjoy as things that I have earned, things that I've deserved. So there's 166 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:34,920 just a way of framing our relationship with God that thinks of the... Well, in one of 167 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,040 the early sermons I was trying to help people think why on earth would this be an attractive 168 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:46,000 thing? And to try and get under the skin of why might it be tempting to start to think 169 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,960 that we make some sort of contribution, that there are things that we need to do, even 170 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,200 if, in that particular case, there are some things that are going to be physically painful 171 00:16:53,200 --> 00:17:01,840 to do. Why would you do that? And I said two things. One is pride, that we, as human beings, 172 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:07,480 we find it very difficult to receive things freely as gift. We would much rather think 173 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:13,280 that we have earned it. And that is simply, well, for lots of reasons, but one of them 174 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:14,280 is... 175 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,640 I haven't bought you anything. Yeah, every birthday. 176 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:23,560 It allows... Thank you for that little insight into the Ward household there. 177 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:28,360 That's just an anecdote from visiting somebody else's house. 178 00:17:28,360 --> 00:17:35,800 Oh, of course it is. Any resemblance to a person's living or dead? So why is it attractive 179 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:43,320 to us? The thought that I would be able to say, I enjoy this thing because I, in some 180 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:49,600 way, can give myself kudos for deserving it, for meriting it. And therefore, not just to 181 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:55,580 feel good about myself, but also to be able to say, as I look around other people, I stand 182 00:17:55,580 --> 00:18:00,240 over them. I'm a little bit further ahead from them in the race. And that is, you see 183 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:06,380 Jesus interacting with the Jews of his day as you realize, actually just there is revealed 184 00:18:06,380 --> 00:18:14,400 something of our common human nature. Then the desire to find almost anything, to be 185 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:19,360 able to say, this is why God picked me. This is why I'm a little more important around 186 00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:25,140 here and more valued than others around me. It's why Paul is going to spend so much time 187 00:18:25,140 --> 00:18:31,320 in chapters five and six talking about how it's exactly the flesh that is this divisive 188 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:36,680 judgmental sort of spirit. And actually the fruit of being able to say with Paul that 189 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:41,960 the son of God loved me and gave himself for me is to be able to say, this is wonderful 190 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:48,440 gift and I haven't done anything to deserve it. I look around and think, we are all together 191 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:53,920 being blessed recipients of things that we haven't earned. But the temptation towards 192 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:59,480 pride in whatever around the life of the church marks somebody out of somehow a little bit 193 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:05,440 more spiritual, one who's the proper Christian. Asking what that looks like in the life of 194 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:12,160 the church is one thing. The temptation to pride is behind it. And then also I've just 195 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:18,680 tried to talk a bit about the temptation to control, to want to be able to stay in control 196 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,880 of our lives. And that makes it really appealing to relate to God as if there were terms and 197 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:29,000 conditions, as if there were an employment contract that said, I am due to give you these 198 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:35,220 hours and in return for those hours, I'm entitled to do these things. And I think in the back 199 00:19:35,220 --> 00:19:43,200 of my mind, it is wickedly easy to want to be able to relate to God on those terms because 200 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:48,360 it means I put something in and I'm guaranteed to get something out. But also I do have that 201 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:53,880 measure of control. I am able to say, I'm entitled to these things and to clock off 202 00:19:53,880 --> 00:20:02,680 now. In that older brother and the prodigal son sort of moment, that's an instinct that 203 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:09,440 we've talked a little around. I think one of the most unsettling thoughts in Galatians 204 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:15,200 is the thought that actually to put your trust in Jesus and to be united with him is to say 205 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:20,000 that I have died and the life I now live, I live by faith in the Son of God who loves 206 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:25,720 me and gave himself for me. My life is over and it is not my own. 207 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,160 It is no longer I who live. 208 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:35,720 Right. And God can therefore, in that I am abandoning all control over my life. And that's 209 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:43,520 a very different calling. It's one that with Paul is going to mean bearing in our bodies 210 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:49,260 in some ways the marks of following Jesus and the cost of following Jesus. This message 211 00:20:49,260 --> 00:20:53,720 that he's preaching is one that is really offensive. If he was still preaching circumcision 212 00:20:53,720 --> 00:21:00,280 then why is he still being persecuted? Paul sees that this message that there really is 213 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:04,880 nothing special about you or me that means God has shown me his mercy and grace is a 214 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:09,680 really offensive one because we love to think there's something that marks me out. 215 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:14,480 Thank you. That's massively helpful though. I think that really helps dig into, which 216 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,840 I think really opens up a whole bunch of applications. What you've done there, you've just dug into 217 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:26,040 what you call it, the spiritual psychology, the spiritual patterns of thought and assumptions 218 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:30,240 that lie behind the mistakes that the Galatians are making. It's when you tap into that so 219 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:37,080 often isn't it, that suddenly now you can see, oh goodness me, we do similar sorts of 220 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,280 things. We have similar sorts of problems. Terrific. 221 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:46,560 I'm going to talk about this just because it was on the cutting room floor. It didn't 222 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:55,440 make it quite into the sermon but I was struck by it. We paused briefly the series, Come 223 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,960 the End of Galatians 4, where we've been talking a lot about basically in different ways the 224 00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:07,080 gift of a child, God's work in sending his son into the world born under the law. It's 225 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:13,480 a very Christmassy sort of section. The way that we move from Christmas in our culture, 226 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,800 the way that we move from Christmas, which properly is a great celebration of what God 227 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:23,040 has done sending his son into the world, we then emerge straight into January and suddenly 228 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:28,000 start making New Year's resolutions. Our eyes come entirely off the thought of generosity 229 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:33,440 and gift and grace and straight into how I'm going to put myself right and fix me. That's 230 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:41,880 just as most people know, that's almost the fastest route from feasting to glum despondency 231 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:47,840 and just a miserable January even if it weren't for the British weather. That in the Christian 232 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:54,440 life is just a transition that we easily make. It's a really deforming sort of liturgy culturally 233 00:22:54,440 --> 00:23:04,280 to go from Christmas into resolutions and far better to try and hold onto and remain 234 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,900 thinking of our relationship to God as one of gift of having been brought in as sons 235 00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:18,080 to enjoy that relationship. Which is a good place for epiphany to come in, in the liturgical 236 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:26,280 year and even thinking about Galatians talking about it as a revelation from God and thinking 237 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:32,280 about the gift of epiphany I think has made my January much brighter than it is sometimes. 238 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:38,000 Terrific, yes. We're recording this here in the dark end of January as we are. Thank you. 239 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:43,960 Now let's move from some of those details of preaching Galatians. We're going to back 240 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:48,880 up a little bit. We've touched on this a bit already. One of the big topics in Galatians 241 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:54,720 is justification. Many people watching and listening will be aware of debates that have 242 00:23:54,720 --> 00:24:00,120 long been running about what does justification language of the Bible mean? What does it particularly 243 00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:08,360 mean in Galatians? Let me just kick this off with what I thought I saw when I preached 244 00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:14,120 through Galatians that I found helpful and then you can, you want to correct, affirm 245 00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:20,800 entire rightness of entirely as you see fit. When I preached through Galatians and then 246 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,520 did a bit of work on it afterwards to teach it when I was working at the Cornhill training 247 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:31,560 course, I was in the end persuaded by some things I found in Doug Moo and his commentary 248 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:39,000 and other writings on Galatians where he says, I think in effect, language of justification 249 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:49,160 in Galatians tends towards a sense of vindication, particularly vindication on the last day. 250 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:57,160 So when one of the key verses, chapter five, verse five is it, when it says, now this is 251 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:03,360 the NIV, for through the spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which 252 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:09,200 we hope. I mean, literally in Greek, it's simply the hope of righteousness and that's 253 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:15,760 how ESV translates it. NIV slightly interprets the righteousness for which we hope, strongly 254 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:24,160 signalling there is in a sense a righteousness to come, which is not at all denying, Doug 255 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:29,280 Moo obviously insists, not at all denying an orthodox understanding of justification 256 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,840 now, right standing before God now entirely on the basis of Christ's work, not our own 257 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,560 performance. But there is a sense in which on the last day there will be a universal 258 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:44,440 declaration of that which hasn't yet happened. There will be, because of that, a universal 259 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:50,000 vindication in the eyes of the whole world for every believer, which right now we don't 260 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:57,320 have and that's a source of difficulty and suffering for us very often. So that's his 261 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:04,240 argument. Galatians is particularly looking forward to that. And key evidence would be, 262 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:09,140 his key accusation against them is in beginning of chapter three, is that they are going on 263 00:26:09,140 --> 00:26:17,280 in the wrong way, having begun in the spirit. So they've begun the right way. Why are you 264 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:22,840 now continuing by flesh and not by spirit? Is what effectively he says at the beginning 265 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:29,640 of three. So the focus is on how you go on and in the end, Galatians, if I've read 266 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:39,400 me rightly, is about how a Christian who has been justified in Christ remains in that justified 267 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,980 standing or perhaps more strictly we should say, should continue to live in a way that 268 00:26:43,980 --> 00:26:50,600 demonstrates that they do indeed have that right standing before God now. So as to be 269 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:56,960 confident on the last day. And Paul's answer is, it's not going to be by adding works of 270 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:06,840 law or any other obedience to faith for confidence of right standing. It will be as chapter five 271 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:14,400 also say, faith expressing itself in love, allowing the spirit with whom you've begun 272 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,040 now to bring about a life of godliness and righteousness in you as you walk with the 273 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:24,000 spirit rather. So that would be my, if I've got it right, a kind of potted summary of 274 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:31,360 what I was persuaded of and I found particularly in Doug Mu. Let me throw that in there as 275 00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:37,400 what one preacher got to some years ago. What would you do? Pick that up and run with it 276 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:42,320 or throw it away, whatever you want. 277 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:47,360 From a Galatians perspective, I'll be interested to see what David has to say, but I'm not 278 00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:49,880 meant to mention Thessalonians in this podcast. 279 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:57,360 No, you can't mention Thessalonians. I think it tracks really nicely with a lot of the 280 00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:04,220 way Thessalonians talks about salvation as a current but future event. And it is about 281 00:28:04,220 --> 00:28:11,680 standing blameless before the Lord on the day he comes. And you're either in the group 282 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:17,480 that is saved or is destroyed. And I hadn't actually, until you said that, connected that 283 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:23,680 with Galatians very much about Galatians being more about what that looks like in the here 284 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:29,960 and now and how you live between now and then as well. But I would be interested to hear 285 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,080 your take on it, David. 286 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:39,400 Yeah, I think one of the really helpful lines from Tom Wright actually on justification 287 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:47,480 is to talk about how the way that Paul thinks of justification is a final judgment sort 288 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:53,040 of verdict of God. Are people condemned or justified, condemned or acquitted, condemned 289 00:28:53,040 --> 00:29:00,740 or vindicated? That is a kind of end time discussion. And what for Paul is happening 290 00:29:00,740 --> 00:29:06,160 in the gospel is that that verdict is brought into the present. Not to replace that kind 291 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:13,880 of future verdict but for people to know that I am justified now in the present and therefore 292 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:19,480 certain of that future vindication. So living between those two points is written across 293 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:27,300 all of Paul's letters. So you'd see it in Romans 5 verse 1, since we've been justified 294 00:29:27,300 --> 00:29:33,160 and we enjoy these blessings, justification very much something in the past that we can 295 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,720 now speak of other blessings flowing from. But come the end of chapter 8, that thought 296 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:45,200 of who is the one who is going to vindicate, who can justify, who is going to condemn, 297 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:52,880 that thought of on the final day we know that we will be justified publicly, visibly because 298 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:58,840 we have been justified already by faith. So Christian life lived between those two and 299 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:07,240 that thought that there is that public vindication of God, of his son and of his people, all 300 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:16,040 of that vindication to come. Is Galatians kind of pushing towards that future pole? 301 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:21,440 I think, well, Doug and me was careful to say there are clearly places where a kind 302 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:27,560 of past justification is in view. Abraham believed God, credited to him as righteousness. 303 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:35,520 And I think it would be strange if Paul were kind of moving entirely away from that sort 304 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:41,240 of framework of being justified in the present and therefore confident of vindication in 305 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:48,680 the future. There are, as you say in chapter 5, I think that's a clear place where that 306 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:57,680 idea of a righteousness that is hope for us is something that is there in the future. 307 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:03,680 And those last few chapters pushing towards that and saying what does it look like to 308 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:12,240 live knowing that that is the future. And so with that hope in view, faith works its 309 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,840 way out through love. There's Paul's three favourite words all over again. 310 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:27,160 So on 5.5, do you think the NIV has basically interpreted rightly? So original Greek, hope 311 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:33,920 of righteousness and ESV just catches that. Now that could be taken, hope of righteousness 312 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:41,400 could be taken to be righteousness only backward looking and referring to the present, but 313 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:47,800 that will give us things to hope for in the future. And the NIV seems not to be taking 314 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,720 that line, but to say that there's an element of the thing called, which it translates here 315 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:58,160 to righteousness, there's an element of that which we still hope for and therefore is still 316 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:04,840 to come and that would be final universal declaration of vindication. 317 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:10,640 Yeah I think that's a good way to translate it. It is certainly not in contradiction with 318 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:18,440 what Paul says elsewhere of both a past and a future hope and expectation for that. And 319 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:24,760 I think it helps us with those last couple of chapters in Galatians where at worst they 320 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:32,040 can be characterised as, well we've talked a lot about faith, we don't need to get the 321 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,480 misunderstanding that it's okay to go and do whatever you want, so we'd better just 322 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,640 put in some ethical instruction at the end or something. 323 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:42,520 And in my memory of reading commentaries, some really brilliant commentaries by some 324 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,360 great wonderful people who I appreciate a lot basically say that about chapters five 325 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:52,880 and six, which I increasingly found not persuasive. So better is? 326 00:32:52,880 --> 00:33:00,120 So better is the thought that Paul is talking about how it is that we can be confident of 327 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:06,560 that today, even if that reference in the start of chapter five isn't to that justification 328 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:11,240 that is to come. Paul is talking through chapters five and six about those who can be confident 329 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:19,880 of entering the kingdom of God and it is those in whom the spirit is at work bearing fruit 330 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:27,800 and so to commit ourselves to that with that hope in store. So the way that those chapters 331 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:35,680 aren't simply a kind of remedial, let's be sure they don't go off the rails ethically 332 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:41,480 built into Paul's gospel that he's shared with them is the thought of entering into 333 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:47,280 the kingdom on that final day and that what God has done through his son and his spirit 334 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:52,760 is sufficient to get you there. It's why Paul doesn't talk about either the works of the 335 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:58,640 flesh or your works in the power of the spirit or something, the fact that it is the fruit 336 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:04,520 of the spirit in contrast to the works of the flesh and wanting to emphasize what God 337 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:14,560 has given you in his son and in his spirit is sufficient to get you there. That's the 338 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:19,840 thought which I think is sown through those earlier chapters in ways that we don't always 339 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:27,240 pay attention to. So I think it's easy to think Galatians one to four, you're justified 340 00:34:27,240 --> 00:34:32,560 by faith and then the kind of idea of a transformed Christian life just gets tacked on on the 341 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:33,560 end. 342 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,640 There was a sort of Roman style heading off someone who might say well let's sin so grace 343 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:43,920 may abound. We say chapters five and six are just not that at all. 344 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:56,160 So the idea that Christ lives in me, Galatians 2.20 and then when Paul in Galatians four 345 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:01,680 wants to talk about how, it's this curious mixed metaphor, he's in the pains of childbirth 346 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:08,440 until Christ is formed in you. So it's actually their bodies and lives in which Christ is 347 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:16,280 being formed. But that idea of the Christian life not simply being set free from the punishment 348 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:25,080 for sin and the confidence of acquittal but also the great gift of Christ dwelling in 349 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:30,440 us, being formed in us and what Galatians five in particular is going to do is help 350 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:36,920 us to see that is the ministry of the spirit. He's already been the one who brings us into 351 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:42,440 sonship and adoption and inheritance. He's also the one through whom Christ is formed 352 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:49,440 in us. And so that's also I think what energises those last couple of chapters. Not just that 353 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:55,600 question of how are you going to endure until that final day but let's continue exploring 354 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,960 what God has done by his son and his spirit in you. 355 00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:03,600 Tim, do you want to ask any more about justification? 356 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:11,480 Yes, but not now. Not now. Yeah, we're about to head into a topic, aren't we, about which 357 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:18,680 I genuinely know nothing and you too now know your stuff. So Sydney, kick us off. 358 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:25,280 Yeah, well, with Galatians, Galatians, I guess along with Romans are the two that talk the 359 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:31,360 most about justification and because of that they've been a real centre point of Pauline 360 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:36,400 scholarship and debates and there's various bits of that we could talk about but I think 361 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:44,180 one that while we have David with us to talk about and because Galatians was the starting 362 00:36:44,180 --> 00:36:49,860 point for a lot of this is what's called the apocalyptic Paul, the apocalyptic interpretation 363 00:36:49,860 --> 00:36:55,440 of Paul and I'll let David talk about it a bit more but I think some things in Galatians 364 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:02,280 that really stand out for me sometimes are the ways Paul talks about receiving the gospel 365 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:09,140 as a revelation which is apocalyptic language in some texts and as well the way he talks 366 00:37:09,140 --> 00:37:14,520 about when he's talking about slavery it's being free from the elemental principles of 367 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:19,000 this world and those are some of the trickier bits that have been picked up by scholars 368 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:24,720 and so I'm going to hand over to David to give us a little introduction to that. 369 00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:33,160 Okay, yes, the idea that Paul is an apocalyptic writer or thinker is one that's been championed 370 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:38,960 in the last particularly the last kind of 10 years or so it's become a really popular 371 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,520 idea in a lot of New Testament scholarship. When people hear the word apocalyptic they 372 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:49,240 might think of a few different things they might think the idea of the future return 373 00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:56,520 of Jesus that's apocalyptic kind of idea of eschatology and that's in the past people 374 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:01,800 have meant that those sorts of ideas a little bit more there's an author called J. Christian 375 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,720 Becker who wrote a wonderful book called Paul. 376 00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:07,720 The Apocalyptic Triumph. 377 00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:14,960 Yeah, that's right so there's a couple of books that either just Paul the apostle or 378 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:19,880 the apocalyptic triumph of God is the sub-script to one of his works and he's emphasizing very 379 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:25,840 much the future return of Jesus. You'd be hard pressed though to emphasize that and 380 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,760 to do it on the back of Galatians given that apart from one or two verses that we've discussed 381 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:35,480 already it actually doesn't talk much about the future return of Jesus. Other people have 382 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:40,480 thought if you're going to talk about Paul as an apocalyptic theologian then that must 383 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:46,240 have something to do with Jewish apocalypses texts that speak of revelations being made 384 00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:54,520 and some people have wanted to make that connection to Galatians where Paul talks about how that 385 00:38:54,520 --> 00:39:01,400 God's God in his grace was pleased to reveal his son to me and the verb is apocalyptic 386 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:09,080 to reveal to make known and people thought that might be a link in. As it happens though 387 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:13,580 the idea that Paul is apocalyptic doesn't really track with either the future return 388 00:39:13,580 --> 00:39:18,960 of Jesus or those Jewish texts with apocalypses like the book of Revelation. They go in a 389 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:26,440 slightly different direction. They want to emphasize for Paul his gospel is apocalyptic 390 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:34,000 in the sense that it speaks of a humanity enslaved by hostile powers that God liberates 391 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:41,240 us from. For the apocalyptic movement if there's one basic idea to Paul it is that human beings 392 00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:50,480 are enslaved to the law, to sin, to death, to the flesh and those are almost characters 393 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:56,200 in a drama for Paul that enslave humanity and what they want to argue is that for Paul 394 00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:02,240 the gospel is not about human beings being forgiven for things that they've done wrong, 395 00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:10,360 it's about God setting humanity free from these enslaving powers. And so in Galatians 396 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:19,520 that is clearly there's some language there in Galatians 3 about Paul rescuing us from 397 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:29,200 slavery, to the law, enslaved to sin in some respects and that idea of the elementary principles 398 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:36,480 that we might be enslaved to. One of the other themes that they want to draw on is more of 399 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:42,040 a question of eschatology and the timings of salvation. Wanting to emphasize though 400 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:49,160 very often a very definitive in Jesus God has changed everything to say that really 401 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:55,920 you divide the whole of human history into a before and an after. That there is a before, 402 00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:00,760 then Jesus has come and that is the great turning point. So in all of this one of the 403 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:07,000 little battles that runs is between some people who want to emphasize Paul as a very kind 404 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,800 of salvation historical thinker that there are lots of points on his timeline that build 405 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:16,520 up to the coming of Jesus. And the apocalyptic crowd one of the things they want to emphasize 406 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:24,600 is no there really is a very definitive break. One of the concerns about the movement is 407 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:29,880 just how far they're prepared to go in speaking about that. So they will essentially talk 408 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:35,400 about God stepping into a world that has fallen out of his control and him coming into the 409 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:45,560 world is him regaining control. And there are some obvious issues with that. What do 410 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,760 you want to ask? 411 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,960 First of all the apocalyptic crowd sounds like an evening that you really would or would 412 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:56,640 not want to go to depending on how up for it you really were. For those who are interested 413 00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,800 in these things the key names in scholarship. 414 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:06,880 Yeah great so J. Louis Martin is one of the kind of founding fathers of that modern group. 415 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:12,520 He wrote a commentary on Galatians for the anchor series and in lots of ways is looked 416 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:19,320 to as a father figure. Then there are a number who have worked with him and studied under 417 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:25,280 him so Martinus de Boer has written another commentary on the New Testament library and 418 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:32,040 commentary on Galatians. He's written a PhD on Romans as well. Beverly Goventa is another 419 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:38,160 New Testament scholar who's written on Luke and various other topics but has written a 420 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:46,160 good amount on Galatians and on Romans and advancing a sort of similar idea that in Romans 421 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:52,740 Paul is speaking about sin and death there as these cosmic terrorists as these tyrants 422 00:42:52,740 --> 00:42:59,240 that we need setting free from. And so she's very influential. And then Douglas Campbell 423 00:42:59,240 --> 00:43:04,280 is one of the other kind of leading proponents. There are some disagreements between them 424 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:11,140 but Doug Campbell writes a lot about this. So in one of those little four views on books 425 00:43:11,140 --> 00:43:19,360 that come out they put one out on four views of the Apostle Paul and there was an evangelical, 426 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:25,400 a Catholic, a liberal and then the fourth one interestingly it wasn't the New Perspective 427 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:30,840 which has been a big discussion that some will have heard of. The title to the last 428 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:37,640 chapter was the Post New Perspective Perspective catchily titled and that was written by Doug 429 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:43,720 Campbell and it was a treatment almost entirely of Romans 5 to 8 through that sort of lens. 430 00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:48,120 So these are kind of the cool new kids on the block of pushing the boundaries on Paul's 431 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,760 book. I mean Sydney from your perspective, overviewing the whole of Paul, what do you 432 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:59,240 make of this kind of thing? I think there is a lot of actually quite interesting and 433 00:43:59,240 --> 00:44:04,760 helpful stuff that comes out of the apocalyptic school. I think what's interesting as you've 434 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:10,120 said David is they're not agreed actually among themselves on what it means and so it's 435 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,400 not completely consistent and I think working in Thessalonians it was quite interesting 436 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:20,880 that none of them make anything of first or second Thessalonians in their work. Shame 437 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:26,560 on them, shame on them. Well those are two of the arguably more apocalyptic in the traditional 438 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:33,760 sense of using Jewish apocalyptic terms and if they want to go down the eschatology route 439 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:39,760 having to do with that. And so it very much has been centred more on the justification 440 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:47,360 side and that's why it's been centred around Romans and Galatians. I think some of the 441 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:54,280 helpful things actually are thinking about, you can weigh in on whether you agree with 442 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:59,160 this or not, but I think some of the helpful things are sin is an individual problem but 443 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:04,120 it's not just an individual problem either and I think some of what I've found more helpful 444 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:12,280 from the school is taking you to have a bigger view of how sin has impacted the world as 445 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:17,880 a whole and I wouldn't go along with a lot of what they argue but I think sometimes with 446 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:23,180 students I've tried to show them some of that helpful side of thinking about more systemic 447 00:45:23,180 --> 00:45:31,320 issues of sin or how that's impacted and working that alongside the individual impact as well. 448 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,680 Yeah and those two things are often played off against each other aren't they, as if 449 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:39,000 it's a zero sum game the more you increase one the less you'll downplay the other. But 450 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:43,040 that's just silly isn't it, you can just see both are true I think. 451 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:47,360 Yeah and in fact some of the really interesting pushback to some of the apocalyptic school 452 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:53,720 has been well Jewish apocalypse could quite happily hold together the individual and the 453 00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:58,640 collective. So you don't need to make them oppose each other either. 454 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:04,560 I mean if you're preaching on the early verses of Galatians and you come to, gave himself 455 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:09,520 four our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, that's really going to fill out 456 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,400 isn't it the kind of things you might talk about, have I got that right? 457 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:17,840 It is, I mean for J. Louis Martin it's interesting what he'll argue on that verse in particular 458 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:24,360 is he'll say Paul is having to handle some traditional material, the idea of forgiveness 459 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:30,960 of sins is more traditional but what Paul is doing in that verse is really signalling 460 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:36,280 where these churches might have started and what he really wants to move them onto. So 461 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:42,160 the idea that forgiveness of sins it's traditional I kind of have to quote it but really I'm 462 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:46,480 interested in this idea of being rescued from the present evil age and that's the great 463 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:53,000 liberation that's happened setting aside the idea of forgiveness of sins and it produces 464 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:59,880 in Romans a variety of really quite curious readings where they're trying to say Paul 465 00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:05,600 for the first few chapters is dealing with more traditional views of atonement but really 466 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:11,080 what he wants to get to is Romans 5 to 8 which they want to argue is now a kind of gear change 467 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:23,000 into this idea of a plight defined by enslavement to hostile powers and in most of the writings 468 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:27,640 it's right to acknowledge there's some variety, there are a few things that they do basically 469 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:34,280 hold in common. The idea that God's wrath at sin and the significance of individual 470 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:43,160 sins is something to really downplay that human beings are fundamentally enslaved victims 471 00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:49,160 of these powers and if God is wanting to take on anything or is going to bring anything 472 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:56,800 to judgment it's those powers not human beings and so they also all want to affirm in the 473 00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:04,880 end a universal salvation that God is going to liberate all of humanity from these powers 474 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:11,240 so as Sydney said there's real truth in the fact that for Paul the human plight isn't 475 00:48:11,240 --> 00:48:20,440 simply the things that we do wrong in a kind of simplistic way. The human situation is 476 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:24,560 much more complex than that. In some ways my concern is that they've still made it very 477 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:30,320 simple they've actually just boiled it down to we are enslaved and we need setting free 478 00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:38,200 and actually the ways in which we are complicit in moral situations which also aren't entirely 479 00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:43,800 under our control you know the very traditional idea of the world the flesh and the devil 480 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:50,080 actually gets towards a much richer a much more kind of real and complex account of the 481 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:56,080 human situation than what they're offering I think. Terrific thank you that's really 482 00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:05,880 really helpful. We ought to bring this to land let's try this. I'll go first on this 483 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,680 one so while I'm talking you can have a chance to think because I haven't given you very 484 00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:16,000 detailed warning of this. Just something personally for ourselves as Christians or maybe using 485 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:24,600 Galatians in ministry to others perhaps the sort of the spiritual state or confusion or 486 00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:29,680 turmoil that you might find yourself in where you think it's going to be Galatians that's 487 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:38,400 most going to help me here. For me it's when I think about my own sanctification you know 488 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:43,640 and I guess some of us believers we could oscillate between thinking it's going incredibly 489 00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:49,280 well I'm clearly one of the godliest people in my church family through to it's going 490 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:55,800 incredibly badly is there any discernible growth and then but then now chapters five 491 00:49:55,800 --> 00:50:01,200 and six as you've been describing them David the fruit of the spirit is these things the 492 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:06,720 fruit of the spirit is these things you began with the spirit if there is in you a walking 493 00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:13,920 in the spirit this is what the spirit will bring this is just what life in the spirit 494 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:21,240 will bring we of course we have to work and cooperate with him but it's not that's not 495 00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:29,520 attempting to do the impossible the call to godliness is a call that God has made entirely 496 00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:36,880 possible and he will bring it about in us if we continue to walk in the spirit I find 497 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:44,920 the particular chapter five and six just hugely encouraging in yes in redoubling my efforts 498 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:52,320 encouraging media to go yet again in cooperating with the spirit because the Lord the Lord 499 00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:57,280 is enabling and will enable what he calls us to that seems to be really strong at heart 500 00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:02,240 of five and six and I found that hugely encouraging lovely to you David. 501 00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:11,440 There are two and I can't pick between them but I'll be but I'll be quick the Galatians 502 00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:20,160 two and verse 20 just those wonderfully simple words so I think in a letter where there are 503 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:24,720 lots of complex issues to work through and that we can do it in almost all words of one 504 00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:32,880 syllable the son of God who loved me and gave himself for me the idea I think it's Luther 505 00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:37,600 isn't it he talks about what are the kind of most important words in the Bible is it 506 00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:43,520 does the gospel come down to two prepositions does it come down to two verbs and the idea 507 00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:47,920 that it comes down to pronouns the difference between the son of God who gave himself and 508 00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:54,960 the son of God who gave himself for me so that I think just when I've when I've asked 509 00:51:54,960 --> 00:52:00,840 students what what do you think sustains Paul in a ministry that is exhausting in so many 510 00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:08,520 ways and and so testing I think that that sense that he never loses of the love of God 511 00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:13,120 that that he individually has experienced and known is a really is a really helpful 512 00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:23,560 thought to me and and then the the Hagar and Sarah story it's it's obviously it's one 513 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:28,400 that and where Paul talks about this can be read in some way allegorically and lots of 514 00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:33,560 debate and lots of good stuff written about it but I I love the fact that Paul just constantly 515 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:39,240 turns to those stories in the Old Testament where we see something of human barrenness 516 00:52:39,240 --> 00:52:45,480 and impotence where there is there is basically nothing on the human side that's going to 517 00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:51,260 bring any good out of this and it's in it's exactly into those situations that God moves 518 00:52:51,260 --> 00:52:58,920 to bring life and it's a Romans four sort of thought as well that God is the one who 519 00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:03,680 takes nothing and makes it something takes dead things and makes them alive who raised 520 00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:11,360 the Lord Jesus from the dead who to Abraham and Sarah who whose bodies were so advanced 521 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:17,120 in age there was no life left and that's just in in all of the situations in life that I 522 00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:23,880 think I I don't even understand that in fully I there's certainly nothing that lies in my 523 00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:29,120 power to do to fix it we don't lose hope at that point precisely because God is a God 524 00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:36,280 who who takes nothing and makes it something and brings life out of death wonderful I think 525 00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:42,080 Tim mine is going to follow yours very closely and one thing I was really struck by when 526 00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:50,520 I was rereading this today was in chapter six and the start of chapter six verses three 527 00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:53,980 and four in particular if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing he deceives 528 00:53:53,980 --> 00:53:58,180 himself each one should test his own actions then he can take pride in himself without 529 00:53:58,180 --> 00:54:02,200 comparing himself to somebody else for each should carry his own load and thinking about 530 00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:06,040 that in relation to some of what you were talking about with life by the spirit and 531 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:13,480 the fact that we have the spirit is a great source of confidence and comfort in not having 532 00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:19,600 to rely on our own ability to achieve things and also not having to measure ourselves up 533 00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:23,880 constantly and that's that's certainly a temptation for myself is thinking oh I'm not as good 534 00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,960 I don't know as much I haven't done this as well and actually just right here having 535 00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:34,480 chapter six say and on the one hand don't think of yourself too much but on the other 536 00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:41,240 hand just look at yourself and compare yourself in your own circumstances and situations and 537 00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:48,760 what God has given you that's what you should be evaluating your progress in your faithfulness 538 00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:55,980 is in the context of your own life and I've found that really helpful going into new situations 539 00:54:55,980 --> 00:55:02,120 difficult situations and knowing actually living by the spirit as Galatians says is 540 00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:09,360 seeking to produce the fruit of the spirit that Galatians five talks about and and that 541 00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:15,920 that's that's a gift from God it's not me myself achieving that either wonderful that's 542 00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:29,560 a great place to end thank you both very much