1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,800 Hello and welcome to the Oak Hill College Deep Roots podcast conversations about theology and ministry 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:12,720 I'm Matthew Bingham. I teach church history and systematic theology here at Oak Hill College 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:17,360 I am joined today by my colleague Eric Ortland who teaches Old Testament 4 00:00:17,980 --> 00:00:22,880 Here at the college and we also have a very special guest with us today, Eric 5 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,400 Who are we with today? Absolutely 6 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:31,440 Everyone watching might see some resemblance with the man sitting to my left 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:33,940 We are joined by my father today, Ray Ortland 8 00:00:34,100 --> 00:00:40,980 Who's been an Old Testament scholar and a pastor for many many years and is going to bring his expertise for us today 9 00:00:40,980 --> 00:00:45,520 So dad, thank you so much for being here. It's a privilege. Thank you for having me 10 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:52,000 May I tell one joke before we begin? It's not gonna be jokes all the way, but when when my father retired 11 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,320 retired from ministry at from his church 12 00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:01,320 We had a celebration to you know, express all of our love and appreciation for you 13 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:06,200 I said a little bit all the kids said something and most people did not know me and I stood up and said 14 00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:08,740 Hi, everyone. My name is Eric. I'm Ray Ortland's son 15 00:01:08,740 --> 00:01:13,400 And then I said no, I know that I look older than Ray, but I am actually his son 16 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:18,620 So for those of you watching at home, if you're curious, this man actually is older than me 17 00:01:18,620 --> 00:01:24,340 Even though it doesn't look that way so on that awkward note that could you just say a little bit about? 18 00:01:24,340 --> 00:01:29,380 Where you live and what you've been doing for the past couple years for those people watching at home. Yeah. Thank you, Eric 19 00:01:30,260 --> 00:01:34,380 My dear wife, Janie and I live in the Nashville, Tennessee area and 20 00:01:35,180 --> 00:01:41,900 This past December we celebrated our 51st wedding anniversary. Congratulations. Yeah, we're very grateful to God 21 00:01:42,940 --> 00:01:45,260 I am a pastor and 22 00:01:45,260 --> 00:01:52,620 I have the privilege of serving now through a manual church as a pastor to pastors and 23 00:01:53,620 --> 00:01:56,620 and also with renewal ministries and 24 00:01:57,340 --> 00:02:03,220 RM enables us to travel the world and care for people encourage them speak teach 25 00:02:03,740 --> 00:02:06,220 Preach and so forth. Wonderful. Wonderful 26 00:02:07,140 --> 00:02:11,500 Dad, would it be fair? I'm gonna put you on the spot slightly here in a way that's slightly awkward 27 00:02:11,500 --> 00:02:15,340 But given comments that you and mom have made you mentioned being a pastor to pastors 28 00:02:15,340 --> 00:02:19,100 Would you say it's fair to say that God at this stage of your life? 29 00:02:19,620 --> 00:02:24,900 Has given you the opportunity to be kind of a father figure to young pastors in the US 30 00:02:24,900 --> 00:02:29,780 Is that this is a I think I cannot deny that and it's very 31 00:02:31,540 --> 00:02:33,540 Moving to me 32 00:02:33,540 --> 00:02:36,300 wondrous to me, you know, I feel so 33 00:02:37,060 --> 00:02:38,740 privileged to 34 00:02:38,740 --> 00:02:43,740 Care for younger pastors to believe in them affirm them notice them 35 00:02:44,780 --> 00:02:48,900 Encourage them. Yeah, it's a it's a sacred privilege 36 00:02:49,780 --> 00:02:54,580 Yeah, the Ministry of Encouragement. Yes. Yeah Paul said to Philemon 37 00:02:56,260 --> 00:03:00,900 The hearts of the Saints have been refreshed through you 38 00:03:01,700 --> 00:03:05,580 Philemon 7 that is a powerful I believe 39 00:03:05,580 --> 00:03:10,940 Underappreciated ministry the hearts of the Saints have been refreshed through you 40 00:03:11,180 --> 00:03:15,940 that is a high commendation for for any Christian and 41 00:03:16,620 --> 00:03:19,620 Your mom and I deeply desire that ministry 42 00:03:19,620 --> 00:03:26,540 Yeah, I remember you saying to me once have you ever asking me. Have you ever met someone who was over encouraged? 43 00:03:27,340 --> 00:03:31,860 Who didn't need any more encouragement and I I haven't so to begin this conversation 44 00:03:31,860 --> 00:03:35,780 Let me ask you you've been in ministry for several decades 45 00:03:35,780 --> 00:03:38,500 Can I ask you two-part question sure first of all? 46 00:03:38,500 --> 00:03:43,060 What was clear and important and urgent to you when you began ministry? 47 00:03:43,060 --> 00:03:47,700 Which is still every bit as clear and important and urgent and 48 00:03:48,100 --> 00:03:54,140 What are one or two things that are now clear and urgent and important to you that you either? 49 00:03:55,140 --> 00:03:58,700 Undervalued or just weren't aware of thank you. That's a great question 50 00:03:58,700 --> 00:04:02,020 What remains? 51 00:04:02,020 --> 00:04:07,620 Captivating and urgent as it was in the 1970s is the ministry of the word 52 00:04:09,020 --> 00:04:11,020 Expositional preaching and teaching 53 00:04:11,820 --> 00:04:14,540 Eric I remember in September of 54 00:04:15,220 --> 00:04:20,860 1972 just over 50 years ago. I was sitting in a class in seminary and 55 00:04:20,860 --> 00:04:23,820 At dr. S. Lewis Johnson it was 56 00:04:24,380 --> 00:04:26,700 The first course at the seminary was 57 00:04:26,700 --> 00:04:32,500 The first course after beginning Greek and we were learning basic Greek exegesis 58 00:04:32,700 --> 00:04:36,500 We had our United Bible Society's Greek New Testament's out in front of us 59 00:04:36,500 --> 00:04:42,460 He was teaching us how to use the text apparatus at the bottom of the page the unseals the 60 00:04:42,660 --> 00:04:47,300 Monuscules the papyri and so forth it couldn't have been more academic and 61 00:04:48,500 --> 00:04:55,060 Suddenly without warning. I didn't see it coming. I didn't have time to duck and 62 00:04:55,060 --> 00:04:58,820 It was the kind of thing and at the time. I really didn't believe it 63 00:04:59,660 --> 00:05:01,660 But right there in the class 64 00:05:03,620 --> 00:05:06,180 How do I say this and awareness 65 00:05:07,860 --> 00:05:09,860 Came upon me I 66 00:05:10,100 --> 00:05:12,100 knew it was 67 00:05:12,460 --> 00:05:14,460 from above a 68 00:05:14,660 --> 00:05:18,420 clear and distinct first-order experience of 69 00:05:18,420 --> 00:05:25,820 Divinely given awareness and two thoughts entered my mind that I knew were of God one oh 70 00:05:27,700 --> 00:05:29,700 This is what I was born for 71 00:05:31,020 --> 00:05:35,900 To I'm gonna be a serious student of the Bible for the rest of my life 72 00:05:37,540 --> 00:05:39,540 and it passed 73 00:05:40,340 --> 00:05:42,340 But that marked me and 74 00:05:42,580 --> 00:05:44,580 Professor Johnston Johnson Johnson 75 00:05:44,580 --> 00:05:48,460 Johnson who I never heard of except for this story. He had no idea that happened 76 00:05:48,460 --> 00:05:52,700 It was a normal day in class for him. No one else had any idea and in God's goodness 77 00:05:52,700 --> 00:05:55,460 It was a hugely significant day. It was a turning point 78 00:05:55,980 --> 00:06:00,940 Talking about not many students say oh, I can't wait to learn about New Testament textual criticism 79 00:06:00,940 --> 00:06:06,540 But that was a hugely significant moment for you. It was a turning point in my life, and I thank the Lord for it 80 00:06:06,540 --> 00:06:09,580 It was a a vivid sense of call 81 00:06:09,580 --> 00:06:11,580 I already had a sense of call 82 00:06:11,580 --> 00:06:19,580 I already had a call from to ministry, but then I had a call to biblical ministry 83 00:06:20,460 --> 00:06:27,860 With a clarity I didn't even know was possible and in God's mercy. I walked in that call I 84 00:06:28,740 --> 00:06:37,100 Have many regrets Eric, but the time I have given to serious study of the Bible. I do not regret I 85 00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:44,500 I thank the Lord for it. What a privilege how many what percentage of Christians over the last 2,000 years 86 00:06:45,180 --> 00:06:50,140 Have been given the privilege of studying the Bible at the level of the original text. I 87 00:06:51,420 --> 00:06:56,580 Do not take this for granted. I I really thank the Lord for it. I just want to keep going 88 00:06:56,580 --> 00:07:02,300 Yeah, no that has not changed. I still have that sense of of gracious privilege 89 00:07:02,300 --> 00:07:08,820 Here's here's something. I was completely oblivious to at the time that means so much to me now 90 00:07:10,420 --> 00:07:13,580 I've come to realize and it became clear gradually 91 00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:19,660 But over about 15 years ago. I had another turning point in life. That was more of the nature of pain 92 00:07:20,380 --> 00:07:22,380 than wonder 93 00:07:22,940 --> 00:07:26,380 and I came to realize that I 94 00:07:26,380 --> 00:07:33,620 Came to realize with new vividness that that the doctrine of scripture the the teachings of scripture 95 00:07:34,140 --> 00:07:36,140 the theology of scripture 96 00:07:36,340 --> 00:07:38,340 that gospel doctrine 97 00:07:39,100 --> 00:07:41,100 must not 98 00:07:41,100 --> 00:07:43,900 hang in midair as a naked abstraction an 99 00:07:44,500 --> 00:07:46,500 item of orthodoxy a 100 00:07:47,060 --> 00:07:49,860 Box to check to prove that we're legitimate 101 00:07:50,580 --> 00:07:52,580 But that doctrine is there 102 00:07:52,580 --> 00:07:56,100 Not only to lift up and exalt Christ in a general sense 103 00:07:56,100 --> 00:08:02,020 Which we always want to do but in particular that doctrine creates a certain kind of community 104 00:08:03,500 --> 00:08:07,900 It to use a an unworthy word well 105 00:08:09,780 --> 00:08:14,980 Gospel doctrine creates gospel culture. That's how I try to summarize it 106 00:08:15,700 --> 00:08:20,140 But it it creates a kind of magic among the people of God 107 00:08:20,140 --> 00:08:22,860 so so 108 00:08:23,500 --> 00:08:27,580 Christ and you the hope of glory. Let's let's consider that category for a moment 109 00:08:27,580 --> 00:08:32,300 Christ in Ray the hope of glory Christ in Matthew the hope of glory 110 00:08:32,620 --> 00:08:40,780 Christ in Eric the hope of glory Christ appears in each of us individually that is glorious and the glory is gaining ground 111 00:08:41,580 --> 00:08:44,820 Becoming even more clear. All right, but that and that's wonderful 112 00:08:45,340 --> 00:08:48,060 Something even more amazing is happening 113 00:08:48,060 --> 00:08:50,380 Even more amazing is happening here 114 00:08:51,180 --> 00:08:58,260 Not only Christ in Matthew Christ in me, but but Christ in the space between us 115 00:08:59,660 --> 00:09:04,100 Christ in the relational energy and dynamics between us 116 00:09:04,860 --> 00:09:11,380 Christ is invisible in Matthew Christ is invisible in Ray is visible in Ray and Christ is I 117 00:09:11,380 --> 00:09:18,460 Believe even more greatly visible or deserves to be in the space between us 118 00:09:19,100 --> 00:09:22,380 the relational dynamics that we 119 00:09:23,300 --> 00:09:25,300 receive from the gospel 120 00:09:26,100 --> 00:09:30,860 That we protect that we nurture that we rejoice in for example 121 00:09:33,220 --> 00:09:35,220 Romans 15 7 122 00:09:36,420 --> 00:09:38,420 Therefore welcome one another 123 00:09:38,420 --> 00:09:40,420 gospel culture as 124 00:09:41,140 --> 00:09:44,100 Christ has welcomed you gospel doctrine 125 00:09:45,140 --> 00:09:47,140 for the glory of God 126 00:09:47,140 --> 00:09:49,140 so 127 00:09:49,140 --> 00:09:51,140 Where can the glory of God be seen in the world today? 128 00:09:51,140 --> 00:09:55,140 Well, we could fly over to Switzerland and hike the Alps and we could see the glory of God 129 00:09:55,140 --> 00:09:59,940 We could fly to America and and and hike the Grand Canyon. We would see the glory of God 130 00:10:00,420 --> 00:10:07,780 Or we can drive down to church on Sunday morning a church that understands the gospel at the level of doctrine 131 00:10:07,780 --> 00:10:13,380 And culture and just watch what's happening between the people and we would see 132 00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:16,100 the glory of God 133 00:10:18,020 --> 00:10:26,580 So Christ has welcomed you that's that's amazing Paul, of course is summarizing getting around to kind of summing things up at the end of Romans 134 00:10:27,460 --> 00:10:31,140 Christ has welcomed you is the gospel in four words 135 00:10:33,060 --> 00:10:35,060 It does not say Christ tolerates you 136 00:10:35,060 --> 00:10:37,060 He does not roll his eyes 137 00:10:37,860 --> 00:10:39,860 He does not put up with you 138 00:10:39,860 --> 00:10:43,620 He welcomes you come on into my heart 139 00:10:45,620 --> 00:10:49,300 Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you 140 00:10:50,340 --> 00:10:53,220 So that is the end of aloofness 141 00:10:54,100 --> 00:10:57,540 That is the end of being excessively shy 142 00:10:58,100 --> 00:11:01,540 And self-preoccupied and I don't want to stick my neck out 143 00:11:01,540 --> 00:11:04,740 Emotionally and relationally no no no 144 00:11:06,660 --> 00:11:09,060 And it doesn't say say hi to one another 145 00:11:10,260 --> 00:11:12,820 That's a good thing to do but it doesn't work 146 00:11:12,820 --> 00:11:19,300 Say hi to one another on the way from the parking lot into the sanctuary on Sunday morning as Christ has said hi to you 147 00:11:20,660 --> 00:11:22,260 It doesn't work 148 00:11:22,260 --> 00:11:26,980 No, come on in here get into my life. I welcome you into my life 149 00:11:27,620 --> 00:11:28,660 Wow 150 00:11:28,660 --> 00:11:31,700 Where on in this world is that happening? 151 00:11:32,740 --> 00:11:34,740 Wherever that's happening in Christ 152 00:11:34,980 --> 00:11:40,100 The glory of God is seen and that was not clear to you the way it is now when you began 153 00:11:40,660 --> 00:11:46,100 Oh my goodness. No, you know, uh, I knew it was important to be personable. Yeah courteous 154 00:11:46,980 --> 00:11:48,500 cheerful 155 00:11:48,500 --> 00:11:50,180 And so forth 156 00:11:50,180 --> 00:11:52,180 I did not understand 157 00:11:53,460 --> 00:11:56,580 Actually eric the very thing I saw in your grandfather's life 158 00:11:56,580 --> 00:11:59,300 The very thing I saw in your grandfather my dad 159 00:11:59,940 --> 00:12:07,540 Yeah, he really got this intuitively. Yeah, he treated people as if they were royalty because he knew they are. Yeah 160 00:12:08,420 --> 00:12:15,140 Yeah, and what I saw in my dad. I finally understood more principally. Yeah and pastorally 161 00:12:16,260 --> 00:12:21,540 Now all I want to do is preach and teach gospel doctrine in such a way 162 00:12:22,180 --> 00:12:24,100 that gospel culture 163 00:12:24,100 --> 00:12:26,100 comes alive 164 00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:28,100 and 165 00:12:28,180 --> 00:12:32,020 What frances schaeffer called the beauty of human relationships 166 00:12:32,660 --> 00:12:34,660 appears, you know 167 00:12:34,980 --> 00:12:40,180 I feel profound urgency about that that I was completely oblivious to 168 00:12:41,060 --> 00:12:47,940 Years ago. Yeah gospel doctrine creates gospel culture. Yes, so if we're thinking about that, I'm a pastor in a local church 169 00:12:48,020 --> 00:12:54,260 I'm a leader in a local church in some context. Is it the case that you know, I think of um, you know 170 00:12:54,260 --> 00:12:57,860 Paul says to timothy keep a close watch on your life and your and your doctrine 171 00:12:58,580 --> 00:13:05,300 um, is it just the case that I need to make sure my doctrine is sound that it's biblical and then I need to be teaching and 172 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:12,180 Communicating that clearly and gospel culture will then sort of work itself out or are there other other things? 173 00:13:12,820 --> 00:13:17,540 That I need to be thinking about and checking in my own heart and my own life my own ministry 174 00:13:18,580 --> 00:13:21,060 That might impede that even if my doctrinal 175 00:13:21,060 --> 00:13:25,300 Decks are lined up as it were. That's a very important question 176 00:13:26,020 --> 00:13:29,060 Well, I believe that if we're preaching christ crucified 177 00:13:30,020 --> 00:13:32,020 Preaching the gospel 178 00:13:32,020 --> 00:13:37,780 What is the gospel good news for bad people through the finished work of christ on the cross? 179 00:13:39,620 --> 00:13:45,700 Justification by faith alone. Let's never stop. Let's get that message into every worship service 180 00:13:46,340 --> 00:13:48,340 in some way shape or form 181 00:13:48,340 --> 00:13:53,780 So I believe if we are preaching that message sincerely from the heart in the power of the holy spirit 182 00:13:54,740 --> 00:13:59,060 Lots of great things are going to happen beyond our own immediate intentions 183 00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:01,460 but 184 00:14:01,460 --> 00:14:03,460 preaching 185 00:14:03,460 --> 00:14:07,860 Clarifies doctrine. It's pastoring that nurtures culture 186 00:14:09,140 --> 00:14:10,660 so 187 00:14:10,660 --> 00:14:12,660 one-on-one conversations 188 00:14:13,460 --> 00:14:15,460 Visits having people over for dinner 189 00:14:15,460 --> 00:14:17,460 small group interactions 190 00:14:18,820 --> 00:14:24,980 Vestry meetings elders meetings and so forth and also the sunday morning ministry 191 00:14:25,940 --> 00:14:28,580 Not only as preaching but as pastoring 192 00:14:29,380 --> 00:14:32,500 Leading a worship service is a pastoral experience 193 00:14:33,380 --> 00:14:37,620 The pastor is is is wrapping his arms around that precious congregation 194 00:14:38,180 --> 00:14:42,900 And rejoicing here. We have christ together and he creates this awareness 195 00:14:42,900 --> 00:14:45,140 That we together as a body 196 00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:49,300 Share the treasures of christ. He just nurtures that 197 00:14:49,940 --> 00:14:51,940 He's not just preaching to individuals 198 00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:56,500 But building and encouraging a group awareness 199 00:14:57,220 --> 00:15:03,940 And rejoicing in christ it rejoicing in one another so preaching clarifies doctrine, but it's pastoring 200 00:15:05,540 --> 00:15:09,140 That that must be dialed in and must be pursued 201 00:15:09,140 --> 00:15:12,340 Diligently wisely lovingly faithfully 202 00:15:13,460 --> 00:15:17,380 Ruggedly over the years that nurtures culture and it takes time 203 00:15:17,940 --> 00:15:21,380 Preaching as you and I both know preaching the gospel will is not easy 204 00:15:22,660 --> 00:15:28,900 But pastoring people into gospel cultures, I believe even more difficult because it entails nuances 205 00:15:30,020 --> 00:15:31,620 intangibles 206 00:15:31,620 --> 00:15:33,060 vibe 207 00:15:33,060 --> 00:15:35,700 Feel and so forth those those 208 00:15:35,700 --> 00:15:38,900 that's what culture is made of and 209 00:15:40,260 --> 00:15:42,500 And it's our privilege as pastors to 210 00:15:43,300 --> 00:15:48,020 think about that consider that pray about that discuss that with leaders and 211 00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:50,900 begin to become 212 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:53,620 rejoicingly intentional about it 213 00:15:54,420 --> 00:15:56,420 Now dad, let me ask you something 214 00:15:56,740 --> 00:16:02,180 Everyone going into pastoral ministry has a different set of gifts. No one is is quite like 215 00:16:02,180 --> 00:16:08,100 One another and there will be those who get a great amount of energy from interaction with other human beings and spending long 216 00:16:08,500 --> 00:16:15,300 Months of time with them. There will be some pastors who will find it easier to retire to their study read commentaries read theology and so on 217 00:16:15,780 --> 00:16:21,300 All those gifts are are valid and good. Yes. What would you say to someone who is listening to this and saying well ray? 218 00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:23,940 Okay, I understand. We're supposed to love people 219 00:16:24,740 --> 00:16:28,900 The kind of person I am i'm not you know a deeply self-aware person 220 00:16:28,900 --> 00:16:36,740 Person I am i'm not you know, a deeply social extrovert who just oozes over people. I'm just i'm just more of a 221 00:16:38,980 --> 00:16:40,980 Quiet 222 00:16:41,140 --> 00:16:43,140 Relaxed person 223 00:16:43,780 --> 00:16:49,140 What would you say to someone who is maybe thinking race describing a certain kind of personality that I don't have 224 00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:52,420 No, that's a great point. Thank you for saying that I am 225 00:16:54,500 --> 00:16:56,500 A huge introvert 226 00:16:56,500 --> 00:16:58,820 Like being with you guys right now is 227 00:17:00,820 --> 00:17:04,420 Okay, that's what that's what everyone says who comes on the podcast is just 228 00:17:05,300 --> 00:17:07,380 Deeply exhausting. Yes, that's right 229 00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:10,660 Who of us is truly loving? 230 00:17:12,100 --> 00:17:15,700 Who of us was born with the love of christ in our hearts? 231 00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:18,980 Um 232 00:17:18,980 --> 00:17:23,700 If we are going to be faithful to christ as ministers and pastors 233 00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:29,140 Deacons presbyterians and so forth. We're going to be stretched so far beyond ourselves 234 00:17:29,780 --> 00:17:37,300 Let's never limit what the lord wants us to become by our own self-defined personality profile 235 00:17:37,620 --> 00:17:39,620 Where's that in the bible? 236 00:17:40,740 --> 00:17:42,740 We will be 237 00:17:42,820 --> 00:17:49,140 We'll go places with him. We never dreamed we would go and we will be exhausted at times 238 00:17:49,140 --> 00:17:53,860 Oh my god, what if we weren't? What if we always held back? 239 00:17:54,580 --> 00:18:02,020 And played it safe and never allowed ourselves to get into a situation that might get out of hand in terms of my own personal 240 00:18:02,820 --> 00:18:04,420 capacities 241 00:18:04,420 --> 00:18:10,180 What if I limited myself to to my dna what I was born with? Excuse me 242 00:18:10,900 --> 00:18:12,900 That is not christianity 243 00:18:12,900 --> 00:18:19,060 So in speaking of how gospel doctrine creates gospel culture, we're not engaging in a new galatianism 244 00:18:19,860 --> 00:18:24,820 Between the super spiritual people who you know love to be around people and those who don't 245 00:18:25,860 --> 00:18:28,500 This is what christianity is for everyone 246 00:18:29,060 --> 00:18:32,820 Well, not only are we not creating a new galatianism 247 00:18:33,380 --> 00:18:38,420 The passage in the new testament that has been up in my face about this for decades 248 00:18:38,420 --> 00:18:42,980 Is galatians 2 11 through 21 where the apostle paul? 249 00:18:44,820 --> 00:18:46,340 scolds 250 00:18:46,340 --> 00:18:47,380 the 251 00:18:47,380 --> 00:18:48,820 apostle peter 252 00:18:48,820 --> 00:18:52,500 John stott calls that the most tense and dramatic moment 253 00:18:53,060 --> 00:18:56,660 in in terms of christian dynamics in the new testament 254 00:18:57,460 --> 00:18:58,420 and 255 00:18:58,420 --> 00:19:01,300 And what was paul's objection? 256 00:19:01,300 --> 00:19:04,660 How why was paul so offended by this? 257 00:19:04,660 --> 00:19:08,660 No one less than peter and he says even barnabas 258 00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:12,020 Peter 259 00:19:12,020 --> 00:19:13,380 treated 260 00:19:13,380 --> 00:19:15,380 The gentile believers 261 00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:18,580 As if they weren't quite good enough 262 00:19:19,860 --> 00:19:22,100 There was a two-tiered body of christ 263 00:19:22,820 --> 00:19:24,820 with kosher 264 00:19:24,820 --> 00:19:26,820 jewish believers 265 00:19:26,820 --> 00:19:30,020 Writing sitting in first class with prior boarding and extra legroom 266 00:19:30,660 --> 00:19:32,660 And we had a 267 00:19:32,660 --> 00:19:34,340 an extra legroom 268 00:19:34,340 --> 00:19:36,740 And gentile believers back in coach 269 00:19:37,620 --> 00:19:40,740 Are they going to heaven? Yeah, but they're not at our level 270 00:19:41,380 --> 00:19:47,860 And he was denying that was that there was one faith one lord one baptist and one body utterly denying it 271 00:19:48,660 --> 00:19:50,100 and his 272 00:19:50,100 --> 00:19:55,700 His behavior therefore toward the gentile believers was more than a personal insult though. It was that 273 00:19:56,980 --> 00:19:58,260 paul says 274 00:19:58,260 --> 00:20:02,580 Peter was denying the doctrine of justification by faith alone 275 00:20:05,140 --> 00:20:08,020 And and paul is saying you have no right to do that 276 00:20:09,700 --> 00:20:11,700 Wow, that's intense 277 00:20:12,100 --> 00:20:16,420 Now I very much don't want to dominate this conversation may ask one more follow-up question. Yes 278 00:20:16,820 --> 00:20:17,700 What would you say? 279 00:20:17,700 --> 00:20:21,300 How would you preach the gospel to a pastor listening right now and thinking ray you're right? 280 00:20:21,540 --> 00:20:24,900 And my heart is so dry and cold and dead to the people god has given me 281 00:20:25,620 --> 00:20:27,220 I just don't care 282 00:20:27,220 --> 00:20:32,500 Well, what would you what does the gospel have to say? Yeah to that or to a pastor who's been wounded by the people? 283 00:20:32,580 --> 00:20:34,180 He's been called to 284 00:20:34,180 --> 00:20:36,180 And doesn't want to love them 285 00:20:36,740 --> 00:20:43,220 What does the gospel say to a pastor in that position? That is a great question and we all find ourselves there. Don't we? 286 00:20:45,540 --> 00:20:52,180 I think that's where in our defeatedness as pastors our our 287 00:20:52,740 --> 00:20:54,100 our failure 288 00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:57,300 our impasse 289 00:20:57,620 --> 00:20:59,620 When we hit rock bottom 290 00:21:00,820 --> 00:21:05,780 We tend to think oh my goodness, I don't want to go there. That is the worst case scenario 291 00:21:06,980 --> 00:21:11,700 I no longer believe I understand that feeling. I no longer believe that's the worst case scenario 292 00:21:12,580 --> 00:21:16,900 Because rock bottom is where christ himself awaits us with open arms 293 00:21:18,020 --> 00:21:21,060 The greatest things in life happen when we hit rock bottom 294 00:21:21,060 --> 00:21:26,660 I say 5715 for thus says the one who was high and lifted up whose name is holy 295 00:21:26,740 --> 00:21:30,100 I dwell in the high and holy place and also with him 296 00:21:30,740 --> 00:21:36,020 Who is contrite and lowly to revive the spirit of the contrite to revive the heart of the lowly 297 00:21:36,020 --> 00:21:40,020 So where can god be found in this universe? 298 00:21:41,140 --> 00:21:42,820 in two places 299 00:21:42,820 --> 00:21:44,820 Way up high where we cannot go 300 00:21:45,620 --> 00:21:48,020 And way down low where we can go 301 00:21:48,020 --> 00:21:54,580 But god cannot be found in the mushy middle where everybody's pretty much kind of sort of okay 302 00:21:57,460 --> 00:21:59,460 That is the place to fear 303 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,180 Pastoral mediocrity i'm doing a good job, you know 304 00:22:08,100 --> 00:22:10,100 Better than most 305 00:22:10,180 --> 00:22:14,340 Better than the church down the road. Yeah, right. That is that is 306 00:22:14,340 --> 00:22:17,220 Is that's the worst case scenario? 307 00:22:18,180 --> 00:22:20,900 To be devastated to fall on our face 308 00:22:21,540 --> 00:22:26,100 To be defeated. How can I even go on? How can I do this one more day? 309 00:22:26,580 --> 00:22:28,580 How can I face those people? 310 00:22:28,740 --> 00:22:32,420 On sunday, how can I bring them some fresh baked bread? 311 00:22:33,940 --> 00:22:35,380 That would 312 00:22:35,380 --> 00:22:37,940 Be delicious to them. How can I do that? 313 00:22:38,900 --> 00:22:41,800 That is actually the place of new beginnings 314 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:48,120 So if any pastor listening this who honestly finds himself their dear friend 315 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,640 You are so close to the risen christ right now he is next to you 316 00:22:56,360 --> 00:23:00,440 2nd timothy 4 17 the lord stood by me 317 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,320 And strengthened me 318 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,560 Man, I love that 319 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,320 the risen lord 320 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,320 came as an unseen 321 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,320 felt presence 322 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,880 And the apostle paul felt this arm around his shoulder 323 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:21,560 And he he had this awareness of uh, the risen christ there with him saying hey 324 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,280 You just keep going 325 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,280 I'm proud of you 326 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,320 You're my friend i'm with you 327 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,560 The lord stood by me and strengthened me 328 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:41,080 The lord gives that gift to every faithful servant whose heart cracks open says lord 329 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,720 I need you as i've never needed you before 330 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,600 Yeah, thank you. So I mean that's 331 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:53,720 Thinking into the situation you describe eric. I mean, um the word that we hear a lot about these days is burnout 332 00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:59,960 I think I saw I read a book recently that described millennials as the the burnout generation, you know, wow 333 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:07,160 This is a lot on people's hearts and minds and um, so there we're talking into the life of someone who might be feeling some of that 334 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,320 um, but 335 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,200 Here at college eric and I we we spend a lot of time don't we around? 336 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:20,280 People just starting off on the course looking towards what they hope will be what they pray will be a lifetime of faithful and fruitful 337 00:24:20,580 --> 00:24:21,880 ministry 338 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:23,880 if you were talking to 339 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:25,720 those either 340 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,800 Just starting out or even in the first decade here as you enter in to 341 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,520 Look back on multiple decades 342 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,800 They're not burnt out, but they see others 343 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,960 Uh who've gone before who have felt that way and gotten to that place 344 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,400 What would be advice you might give to them to say? 345 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:51,560 Set up patterns for long-term longevity and faithfulness in ministry. Well, thank you matthew. Yeah, great question 346 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,280 so practical strategies 347 00:24:54,840 --> 00:25:01,000 That I think these are obvious, but sometimes they're just not observed. You've got to take a day off 348 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,360 You've got to insist upon that not just insist upon 349 00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:08,840 Those with whom you're you're partnering in ministry insist upon yourself taking a day off 350 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:15,480 So your mom and I when we were in the regular rhythm of pastoral ministry every monday was sacred sacred 351 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,800 That was janney day 352 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:19,080 and 353 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,280 If I wanted to slip in ministry on that day 354 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,040 Your your mother 355 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,280 Had ways of communicating 356 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:33,080 And she had every right to she deserved my attention and 357 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,840 Being with her was life-giving. I needed to shut off 358 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:42,840 Sermon preparation emails and so forth avoid all that go take a walk 359 00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:46,360 Go do something fun 360 00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:48,360 Take a drive 361 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:50,360 Um get some exercise 362 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,960 Go go linger over some really great coffee spend some time in the garden 363 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:57,880 Yes 364 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,480 So a day off everybody needs a sabbath secondly 365 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:09,480 I believe if a minister tries to plow through this life in isolation 366 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,680 He's already in trouble 367 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,640 James 5 16 368 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:20,520 Therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed 369 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,960 All right. Now if we don't believe in the roman catholic confessional 370 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,520 What do we I mean? How do we obey that? That is a commandment 371 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,040 To whom do we confess our sins on a regular basis? 372 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,080 so 373 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,200 Sam walbury 374 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,080 And pastor tj timms in nashville 375 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,240 And I get together 376 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,240 and in my study 377 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,560 and the only 378 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,800 Agenda is to confess our sins to each other 379 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,440 And pray for each other that we may be healed 380 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,400 And so we have a 381 00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:03,400 And pray for each other that we may be healed if we have no one that we trust enough and respect enough 382 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:09,960 To have that kind of experience that kind of transparency. I'm not talking about accountability that can be coercive 383 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,760 but transparency is is uh reciprocal and shared 384 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,000 and gentle 385 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,720 So living an ongoing transparency with trusted respected 386 00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:24,360 Uh christian friends 387 00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:26,120 and and 388 00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:32,520 Walking in james 5 16 confessing our sins praying for each other. We do experience ongoing healing 389 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,320 So a day off having fun 390 00:27:36,980 --> 00:27:39,640 Laughter watching a favorite movie 391 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,040 Taking a walk 392 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,040 and living in 393 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,020 honest 394 00:27:46,020 --> 00:27:49,160 transparency with trusted respected friends 395 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,280 Those two practices I think 396 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,280 position us 397 00:27:54,620 --> 00:27:56,220 for 398 00:27:56,220 --> 00:27:59,900 Longevity in the rugged demands of pastoral ministry 399 00:28:01,020 --> 00:28:04,220 That many thoughts come to mind as i'm listening to you talk 400 00:28:04,780 --> 00:28:10,300 Could I ask I was uh, uh talking with a friend some time ago about a sermon we heard 401 00:28:10,940 --> 00:28:13,660 Uh from a new preacher my friend made a comment 402 00:28:14,380 --> 00:28:20,460 Uh, it was not a bad sermon. It really wasn't but my friend made a comment on it. He said I was instructed 403 00:28:20,460 --> 00:28:22,460 my heart didn't sing 404 00:28:23,100 --> 00:28:25,420 I was it was faithful to the text 405 00:28:26,220 --> 00:28:29,100 I didn't find myself rejoicing by the end of it 406 00:28:29,820 --> 00:28:35,500 I we surely all struggle with that that i've done my homework with the exegesis of the text 407 00:28:36,060 --> 00:28:39,340 And and I i've preached sermons like this 408 00:28:39,340 --> 00:28:43,900 I've been on the receiving ends of sermons where I get to then and I think I agree with everything you said 409 00:28:44,300 --> 00:28:46,700 And I don't really care that much 410 00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:51,420 How and matthew if you have thought you you're an experienced preacher as well if you have thoughts on this as well 411 00:28:51,420 --> 00:28:52,620 I'd love to hear what you have to say 412 00:28:52,620 --> 00:28:55,180 But how how can you help a sermon catch fire? 413 00:28:55,820 --> 00:28:58,940 And be more than just the communication of information about the text 414 00:28:59,660 --> 00:29:01,660 What would you say matthew? 415 00:29:01,980 --> 00:29:05,020 Yeah, I think it's a really interesting one because I think in 416 00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:11,740 The thing that I find interesting about ministry and preaching ministry is this way in which it's very easy 417 00:29:11,740 --> 00:29:15,980 To sort of coast along you don't have a boss in the normal sense 418 00:29:15,980 --> 00:29:19,740 Especially if you're I mean, I think my my background will be as a solo pastor small church 419 00:29:20,060 --> 00:29:24,540 You don't have a boss in the normal sense looking over your shoulder. It's easy to sort of hide 420 00:29:25,020 --> 00:29:27,740 But then at the same time for that reason perhaps 421 00:29:28,860 --> 00:29:31,420 you also find it very easy to to 422 00:29:32,220 --> 00:29:34,220 Chase a sort of perfectionism 423 00:29:34,460 --> 00:29:37,740 And and feel as though it's never good enough 424 00:29:37,740 --> 00:29:43,020 And everything you're saying I agree with I want I want to hear sermons that make my heart sing 425 00:29:43,020 --> 00:29:46,700 And I want to preach sermons that make my heart sing or other people's hearts 426 00:29:47,660 --> 00:29:49,660 But how do you how do you do that? 427 00:29:49,660 --> 00:29:55,500 How do you chase excellence in preaching in reliance on the holy spirit without falling into a sort of? 428 00:29:56,220 --> 00:29:58,540 Sense of perfectionism and a sense that you know what? 429 00:29:58,540 --> 00:30:03,340 It's all on me and I think again for the solo pastor with a small congregation 430 00:30:03,340 --> 00:30:05,900 You don't have a lot of people who are not really good enough 431 00:30:05,900 --> 00:30:11,420 But if you're a small congregation, you don't have a lot to offer people in a sort of worldly sense 432 00:30:11,420 --> 00:30:17,100 You don't have a great array of programs and staff and there is this sense especially in our circles 433 00:30:17,100 --> 00:30:21,660 I think where we rightly put weight on expositional ministry. I think there's this pressure 434 00:30:21,660 --> 00:30:24,940 I know I've felt it where it's you know, I'm I'm the main event here 435 00:30:24,940 --> 00:30:31,180 And if I don't offer them something that's going to make them stay well, then why would they stay? 436 00:30:31,180 --> 00:30:32,860 Why would they come to my church? 437 00:30:32,860 --> 00:30:36,300 And how do you how do you live in that tension in a way that's god-honoring? 438 00:30:36,780 --> 00:30:37,660 and 439 00:30:37,660 --> 00:30:40,780 Uh, but also doesn't sort of let yourself off the hook as it were 440 00:30:40,780 --> 00:30:45,100 I mean laziness is a temptation perfectionism is a temptation. How do you sit? 441 00:30:45,980 --> 00:30:51,100 In a god-honoring place there. That's very insightful. I would not have located perfectionism 442 00:30:51,820 --> 00:30:55,020 Inside that that question. Thank you for that 443 00:30:55,740 --> 00:31:01,340 Um two thoughts one Jonathan Edwards helped me understand what the human heart is 444 00:31:01,340 --> 00:31:06,140 It is the heart is the center of the human being the mind is not 445 00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:08,700 You know, the mind is the sentry 446 00:31:09,180 --> 00:31:11,180 you know with this 447 00:31:11,180 --> 00:31:12,380 Musket 448 00:31:12,380 --> 00:31:18,860 and he sees a datum coming an idea an influence an impulse and 449 00:31:19,900 --> 00:31:22,940 Holds up his rifle and says halt who goes there friend or foe? 450 00:31:23,660 --> 00:31:30,140 And if the mind is satisfied that this datum on its way toward the human being is 451 00:31:30,140 --> 00:31:36,220 Passable acceptable a friend it opens the gate and that that datum that idea 452 00:31:36,700 --> 00:31:41,740 That suggestion whatever it might be then enters in and goes down into the heart 453 00:31:43,660 --> 00:31:45,660 Now we're getting traction 454 00:31:46,140 --> 00:31:51,900 The point of what edwards helped me see though is that if my preaching only addresses the mind 455 00:31:52,860 --> 00:31:55,420 I don't understand the human being 456 00:31:55,420 --> 00:32:03,660 The human being we don't make the hard decisions of life and the joyous decisions of life 457 00:32:04,140 --> 00:32:06,140 The important decisions of life 458 00:32:06,540 --> 00:32:10,300 Just because we've satisfied the sentry who's standing there with his musket 459 00:32:11,420 --> 00:32:15,740 We we turn corners we get traction when when 460 00:32:16,860 --> 00:32:20,460 A gospel idea comes down and detonates in the heart 461 00:32:20,460 --> 00:32:25,020 And then the other thing that i've just observed in myself and others is that 462 00:32:25,660 --> 00:32:31,820 Whenever jesus crucified and risen again is this is more hermeneutical and theological 463 00:32:33,420 --> 00:32:35,420 The point the real 464 00:32:36,060 --> 00:32:38,460 The point is that the real 465 00:32:39,340 --> 00:32:41,340 The point is that the real 466 00:32:42,060 --> 00:32:44,060 The point is that the real 467 00:32:44,780 --> 00:32:46,780 The point is that the real 468 00:32:46,780 --> 00:32:55,900 The point the real point of every passage in the bible from cover to cover as we all believe 469 00:32:56,620 --> 00:32:58,620 Is christ crucified and risen again 470 00:32:59,820 --> 00:33:06,540 Uh, remember eric when we lived in bankery up in scotland and remember skolte the hill with the tower on top 471 00:33:06,860 --> 00:33:11,260 You can see it anywhere in the town. Yeah, wherever we were in the town in the valley around 472 00:33:11,340 --> 00:33:15,180 We could always wear skolte and we could always oh there it is and get our bearings 473 00:33:15,180 --> 00:33:21,180 So that's christ as wherever we are in scripture. We can always look up see him and we can see 474 00:33:22,140 --> 00:33:24,860 Where we are better in relation to him 475 00:33:26,060 --> 00:33:28,060 so it is not 476 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:34,780 Artificial or forced to connect any passage in scripture with christ crucified and risen again 477 00:33:34,940 --> 00:33:37,980 He himself said the scriptures bear witness to me 478 00:33:38,540 --> 00:33:39,900 now 479 00:33:39,900 --> 00:33:46,780 When we take our preaching there if the last point turns the corner and points to christ 480 00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:52,540 And in theological categories we go into 481 00:33:54,620 --> 00:33:56,860 Doctrines like union with christ 482 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,120 substitution 483 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,120 imputation 484 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:10,140 Sanctification by by grace alone through faith alone and christ alone apart from all our works deservings merits identities everything 485 00:34:10,140 --> 00:34:11,980 And and so forth 486 00:34:11,980 --> 00:34:13,980 Those christ-centered doctrines 487 00:34:14,460 --> 00:34:18,940 Then were lifted above merely coaching people in their sanctification 488 00:34:20,460 --> 00:34:22,780 And where our eyes are lifted to him 489 00:34:24,220 --> 00:34:29,580 And we all understand great things start happening at that point at the level of the heart 490 00:34:29,580 --> 00:34:33,100 I did not know that for so many years eric. I have preached 491 00:34:33,820 --> 00:34:37,500 hundreds of the most wretched sermons imaginable 492 00:34:39,420 --> 00:34:43,180 Because I honestly believed my job was to help christians 493 00:34:44,460 --> 00:34:46,460 Be better at 494 00:34:46,460 --> 00:34:48,460 Living the christian life 495 00:34:48,460 --> 00:34:50,460 I did not know 496 00:34:50,460 --> 00:34:53,980 When christ is lifted up all that stuff gets better 497 00:34:55,820 --> 00:34:57,820 Because the heart becomes engaged 498 00:34:57,820 --> 00:35:05,580 So ray one one question that is a sort of perennial uh to put to uh pastors 499 00:35:06,860 --> 00:35:07,820 books 500 00:35:07,820 --> 00:35:13,340 Outside of the scriptures that have shaped you that have played a significant role in 501 00:35:13,740 --> 00:35:20,220 Helping you to see more of christ to think more clearly about what it means to to be a pastor to be a christian 502 00:35:20,940 --> 00:35:26,460 I won't ask you for your favorite book. I think that's hard, but what would be some books that you would say? 503 00:35:26,460 --> 00:35:29,980 Uh, let me put this into the hands of another 504 00:35:31,020 --> 00:35:33,820 Uh pastor all in the way. Well the first 505 00:35:34,380 --> 00:35:40,300 Uh one that comes to my mind actually this isn't a book. It's in a book. It's it's a sermon by francis schaeffer 506 00:35:40,940 --> 00:35:42,780 The book is entitled 507 00:35:42,780 --> 00:35:44,460 no little people 508 00:35:44,460 --> 00:35:46,060 published in the mid 509 00:35:46,060 --> 00:35:53,260 1970s by intervarsity but in that book is a sermon entitled the lord's work in the lord's way 510 00:35:53,260 --> 00:35:59,900 And for me if the scripture is here just underneath is francis schaeffer's sermon the lord's work in the lord's way 511 00:36:00,940 --> 00:36:02,940 um because he makes 512 00:36:03,580 --> 00:36:05,580 clear and compelling 513 00:36:06,220 --> 00:36:08,220 the case that 514 00:36:08,460 --> 00:36:10,460 Doing the lord's work 515 00:36:10,460 --> 00:36:17,660 Out of our own wherewithal just because we're great at it. We're talented our capacities are cool our traditionalism 516 00:36:17,740 --> 00:36:19,740 Whatever just us being great at this 517 00:36:20,220 --> 00:36:22,220 That isn't the lord's work 518 00:36:22,220 --> 00:36:24,220 the lord's work 519 00:36:24,300 --> 00:36:25,580 so 520 00:36:25,580 --> 00:36:32,060 A verse like john 663 the flesh it is the spirit. It gives life the flesh is 521 00:36:32,780 --> 00:36:34,780 No help at all 522 00:36:36,140 --> 00:36:39,420 The words that i've spoken to you they are spirit and they are life 523 00:36:40,700 --> 00:36:43,020 schaeffer alerted me to 524 00:36:44,300 --> 00:36:45,800 the 525 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:47,340 essentiality 526 00:36:47,340 --> 00:36:49,580 Of doing the lord's work in the lord's way 527 00:36:49,580 --> 00:36:51,820 If we really are going to do the lord's work 528 00:36:52,540 --> 00:37:00,140 I can't go through a single day without thinking of that sermon. Yeah, I really recommend it to to everyone. So thank you 529 00:37:01,020 --> 00:37:05,020 That thank you so much for this. I'm conscious of uh the time 530 00:37:05,580 --> 00:37:11,660 Could I close with one final question if that's okay, and then could I ask you to pray for us and pray everyone if that's okay? 531 00:37:11,660 --> 00:37:12,860 It would be a privilege 532 00:37:12,860 --> 00:37:14,860 Well one final question 533 00:37:15,340 --> 00:37:18,540 You you've been in ministry since the early 70s 534 00:37:18,540 --> 00:37:22,380 Mostly in america, but you have spent some significant years here in great britain 535 00:37:23,500 --> 00:37:25,900 As you've seen things changed 536 00:37:26,620 --> 00:37:32,460 Uh things change different changes and trends that you've observed during your working life what things encourage you 537 00:37:33,180 --> 00:37:39,820 And are there things that you think are we are in danger of losing things that earlier generations cherished which are 538 00:37:40,300 --> 00:37:44,780 Underappreciated as we stand here in 2023. What's what are your observations? 539 00:37:44,780 --> 00:37:49,180 Well, I thank you both matthew and eric for the privilege of being with you on this podcast today 540 00:37:49,180 --> 00:37:51,980 I thank all our listeners for giving this their time 541 00:37:52,700 --> 00:37:58,540 In the first decade of this century 2000 to 2010 or so. I was rejoicing to see 542 00:37:59,500 --> 00:38:00,700 a 543 00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:07,180 Resurgence a renaissance of gospel doctrine. I myself went through my own renewal 544 00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:08,940 I 545 00:38:08,940 --> 00:38:11,740 Rediscovered at a deeper thrilling personal level 546 00:38:11,740 --> 00:38:14,780 justification by faith alone imputation 547 00:38:15,820 --> 00:38:22,460 substitution and so forth and that cluster of gospel intense doctrines 548 00:38:23,580 --> 00:38:25,580 In the new testament, especially 549 00:38:26,220 --> 00:38:31,980 Came alive to me and to so many and so for example the gospel coalition 550 00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:36,060 Was formed out of that energy sort of gospel rediscovery 551 00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:40,380 And and let's relish these treasures. Let's spread them 552 00:38:40,380 --> 00:38:42,380 That is really great to see 553 00:38:43,420 --> 00:38:45,420 And that has staying power 554 00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:46,700 if 555 00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:51,420 This other part is also in place and I think this is in the the 556 00:38:52,140 --> 00:38:54,140 second decade of this 557 00:38:54,700 --> 00:38:55,580 century 558 00:38:55,580 --> 00:38:57,580 2010 to 2020 or so 559 00:38:58,620 --> 00:39:07,100 In in our country anyway in my country, I should say in the USA. I think I've seen a lot of relational breakdown 560 00:39:07,100 --> 00:39:11,020 We are lousy at remaining friends long term 561 00:39:12,940 --> 00:39:17,020 One of my goals in life is to stop losing friends 562 00:39:19,980 --> 00:39:21,100 Because 563 00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:24,140 It's not enough to be theologically serious 564 00:39:24,860 --> 00:39:28,780 It's not enough to be expositionally robust 565 00:39:29,740 --> 00:39:31,260 That's glorious 566 00:39:31,260 --> 00:39:40,780 But not enough because that very theology is there to create a captivating beautiful community 567 00:39:41,820 --> 00:39:45,980 As as schaefer said again the beauty of human relationships 568 00:39:47,100 --> 00:39:49,100 I think that area 569 00:39:49,580 --> 00:39:52,300 Has in that area we have revealed weakness 570 00:39:53,020 --> 00:39:55,020 and failure and loss 571 00:39:55,020 --> 00:40:00,300 And I think we have in our in the USA. I'm concerned 572 00:40:00,700 --> 00:40:06,220 We have bungled an historic opportunity. We actually had 10 and 12 years ago 573 00:40:06,700 --> 00:40:11,500 So i'm sorry to say that and I don't want to be discouraging to our friends here in britain 574 00:40:12,300 --> 00:40:17,740 But that's my assessment of where we are and I think we need to go back to the theology in other words 575 00:40:18,300 --> 00:40:20,940 Gospel culture is not a smiley niceness 576 00:40:20,940 --> 00:40:24,620 In other words gospel culture is not a smiley niceness 577 00:40:25,420 --> 00:40:29,980 Poured as a glaze on the surface of robust serious christianity 578 00:40:31,420 --> 00:40:34,800 Gospel culture is is serious christianity 579 00:40:37,100 --> 00:40:44,300 When the gospel doctrine is allowed to do what it wants to do and to exert the authority it legitimately has 580 00:40:45,820 --> 00:40:47,820 What appears 581 00:40:47,820 --> 00:40:49,820 Not just eloquent preachers 582 00:40:49,820 --> 00:40:52,540 but beautiful communities called churches 583 00:40:53,420 --> 00:40:58,060 Where really flawed people with a lot of regrets can come 584 00:40:58,780 --> 00:41:00,780 and live again 585 00:41:00,780 --> 00:41:05,740 Wonderful. Thank you so much. I wish we could keep going but this podcast has to stop sometime 586 00:41:05,820 --> 00:41:08,940 So could I ask you to pray for everyone listening? Yeah. Okay, great 587 00:41:09,740 --> 00:41:13,100 Father in heaven, we put ourselves in your hands and we pray 588 00:41:13,820 --> 00:41:17,580 We are bold to pray for another great awakening in our time 589 00:41:17,580 --> 00:41:22,620 And we pray for you through the truth of the gospel 590 00:41:24,140 --> 00:41:26,140 And the power of the holy spirit 591 00:41:26,620 --> 00:41:28,620 For the glory of the risen christ 592 00:41:29,020 --> 00:41:31,020 and healthy alive 593 00:41:31,660 --> 00:41:33,660 churches all over britain 594 00:41:34,940 --> 00:41:37,580 All over the usa all over the world 595 00:41:38,380 --> 00:41:39,820 For that we pray 596 00:41:39,820 --> 00:41:41,820 To that we give ourselves 597 00:41:42,220 --> 00:41:44,620 Thank you in the holy name of christ 598 00:41:44,620 --> 00:41:50,620 Amen amen amen dad. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you and thank you to everyone joining us 599 00:41:50,620 --> 00:42:15,120 I hope it was a blessing to you You