1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,880 Hello and welcome to Deep Roots, the podcast brought to you from 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,240 Oak Hill College where we have conversations about theology and 3 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:10,440 ministry. My name is Tim Ward and I'm one of the lecturers here 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,640 and I'm joined today by Dr. Sydney Tooth and David Shaw who 5 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,160 both teach New Testament and Greek here. And we're talking 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,320 John's Gospel which I've preached on from time to time 7 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:25,280 but both of you teach courses on it here. So it's going to be 8 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,800 great to hear from you lots about John's Gospel. Now of 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,360 course, John's Gospel, there is so much we could talk about. We 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,760 could have multiple episodes on this. Just tell us which 11 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:38,720 particular topics we're going to focus in on today. 12 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,560 We are going to spend some time looking at characterisation in 13 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:47,360 John and get into a bit of reading John alongside the 14 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:48,800 Johannine Epistles as well. 15 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,240 We, Tim, we threw out a few different topics. You liked the 16 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:54,040 thought of characterisation and thought that would be a helpful 17 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,720 thing given how we sometimes approach John. 18 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:01,240 Yeah, that's true. Here's a question at a rehearsal, David, 19 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,320 I was going to ask you and you thrown back at me. Nice move. I 20 00:01:04,320 --> 00:01:06,400 can see you coming. But it's fine. Yeah. 21 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:11,600 Characterisation. It's true, isn't it? In the last 30, 40 22 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,960 years in Gospel scholarship, but actually scholarship right 23 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:20,120 across biblical narrative, there's been quite a move to 24 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:25,160 think about how characters work within the narrative. I guess 25 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,280 within the broad heading of narrative criticism. Is that 26 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,200 true? That's been a move in the last 30, 40 years. 27 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,440 Yeah. So Alan Culpepper, Anatomy of the Fourth Gospel is 28 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,320 probably the kind of, I think that's the first big salvo. And 29 00:01:37,320 --> 00:01:40,200 that's a bit of a move away from trying to think about John's 30 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:44,320 Gospel as a historical text to try and think about how we take 31 00:01:44,320 --> 00:01:47,280 apart the text and think about the communities that were behind 32 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,320 it. And instead to read the text as a literary artifact and to 33 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,640 think about some of those categories of plot and character. 34 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,680 Yeah. And the way, I guess, preaching and teaching and 35 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,720 ministry from Gospels is sometimes thought about in regard 36 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,320 to the characters is you've kind of got two choices. You can do 37 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:12,600 character study or you can do, well, I'm just going to expand 38 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:17,760 this text as the text that it is. I'm interested in your 39 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:22,160 comments from each of you on this. I mean, my sense is that 40 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,520 thinking about how characters work actually within the warp 41 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,600 and woof of the narrative itself can help just kind of cut 42 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,760 through that and show that it's not necessarily one or the 43 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,400 other. And actually to expand the text without paying good 44 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,280 attention to character, if the characters are strongly part of 45 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,160 the narrative, seems like a false choice. 46 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,400 Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's if you're just 47 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,040 focusing on it as character study, you're missing actually 48 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:53,680 how John has woven in each of the characters. And what's he 49 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,000 doing with them? What is what does he trying to get out of his 50 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,480 reader by having these different characters and actually by 51 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,080 focusing on characterization, you can see the development of 52 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:06,640 his narrative, you can see where he's what responses he might be 53 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,600 trying to get us to have to each character and how they're 54 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:12,240 portrayed. 55 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:17,280 Yeah, that's right. I think the John very often is doing, there 56 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,480 are passages in John where so much of the work that he's doing 57 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,920 in thinking how to form us how to help us understand the 58 00:03:22,920 --> 00:03:26,520 significance of Jesus is by presenting really quite close 59 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,320 character studies. It is where John's gospel stands out in some 60 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,400 ways, one of the ways in which it stands out from the other 61 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:37,920 gospels there, the way in which he will do lengthy scenes where 62 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,200 you've got Jesus interacting with a particular individual or 63 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,840 an individual on their own interacting with with others and 64 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,440 Jesus absent even for a time. So yeah, that seems that seems 65 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,520 significant. I suppose one of the concerns about the thought of 66 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:56,400 just doing character study that people might raise would be that 67 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:02,520 it you know, there's that famous Tim Keller clip that used to do 68 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,840 the rounds a lot that the that the gospel isn't about you. It's 69 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,560 not about you putting yourself in the shoes of this character 70 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,880 or that character and being the hero or being the villain or 71 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,240 something. It's not about you. It's about God. So preach God. 72 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,120 Right. There's something surely helpful in that there's 73 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:21,000 something really helpful in not just thinking where do I fit in 74 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,200 this story without without thinking about what story this is 75 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,080 telling about God and his his relation to us and so on. And 76 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,000 there are certainly I think parts of parts of the gospels or 77 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,280 other other places where to be too preoccupied with which 78 00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:37,520 character I'm supposed to be identifying with here would be a 79 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,960 distraction. And yet, in so much narrative, John's gospel in 80 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:46,240 particular, that's, that's really the the way in which we're 81 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:47,800 invited to read, it seems to me. 82 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:50,760 Yeah, there's a quote I really like on this from a man called 83 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,560 Daniel Doriani, he's written a nice book on application. He's 84 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,360 actually thinking in context just talking about application 85 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,200 for scripture as a whole, but I think it applies quite nicely 86 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:03,440 here, where he says, in a narrative, look for the action 87 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:08,840 of God and the responses of people to that action of God as 88 00:05:08,840 --> 00:05:12,440 it comes into their reality and into their lives. And that it 89 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,920 seems to me, I mean, it's a simple thing to say, but it 90 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,280 nicely shows you if we are preaching what the text says 91 00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:22,760 about God, we are also going to be preaching what the text shows 92 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:27,360 us about human reactions and responses to that divine action 93 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,720 in the text, because that's how God has chosen to narrate it to 94 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:30,040 us. 95 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:34,720 Yeah, and I think, as you said, David, it is distinctive in John 96 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,200 that you have these long individual scenes with 97 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,480 characters as well. And you introduced me to a book chapter 98 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,480 by Bochum about individualism within John's gospel. 99 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:47,480 This is Richard Bochum. 100 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:52,480 Yes. Yeah. Really, really helpful chapter just actually 101 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:57,200 looking at what it means that Jesus meets each of these 102 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:01,160 characters in their own context and situation, and what that 103 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,720 means for the reader too, about thinking about how do we 104 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,720 individually encounter Jesus as well? 105 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,320 Would you recommend that book if someone wanted to chase these 106 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:09,960 things up further? 107 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:14,840 Yeah, absolutely. So it's a collection of essays called 108 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,360 Gospel of Glory. And inside there, there's a chapter called 109 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,440 individualism. Yeah, it's one of my favourite reads on John. 110 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,640 Really helpful. If you hear individualism, it's a 111 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,680 pretty negative thing. We want to avoid individualism. 112 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,880 Bochum is quite helpful to say there's a right kind of 113 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,920 individualism that comes through actually, to see Jesus' 114 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,840 encounters with individual people, says individuals matter 115 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:41,680 to Jesus, you see him interacting countlessly with 116 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,800 with men and women in different circumstances. There's something 117 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,480 there of God's individual care, where he knows his sheep by 118 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,880 name, you see that worked out in the way that he interacts with 119 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,160 individuals. And so it's a really good book. And I think 120 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,680 that's something that's really important to look at, is that 121 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,640 there's a way that God interacts with people, and he 122 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,800 interacts with people in a way that he doesn't just leave us 123 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,760 out in the way that he interacts with individuals. But then the 124 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:10,840 gospel doesn't just leave us as individuals, it does, it does 125 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,000 provide, the gospel provides the power to draw us out from any 126 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:19,240 sort of isolated, egotistical sort of individualism into a 127 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,080 community of love, but one in which we don't lose our 128 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,240 individuality, I think. 129 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,720 That's tremendous. Anything I read Richard Bourkeham having 130 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,360 written about, he's always thought about it way harder than 131 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,560 most other people, even if you don't agree with him. Yeah, 132 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,360 terrific. Okay, well, if that's characterization in general, 133 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,920 David, you just got there a little bit into some of the 134 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,560 specifics of John's characterization. So let's dive 135 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,000 in. Sydney, you wanted particularly to talk about 136 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:45,000 chapter four, didn't you? 137 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:45,920 Yes. Yeah. 138 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:46,720 Kick us off with that. 139 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:48,880 I mean, there's so many different characters you could 140 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,280 have, I'm trying to remember how many individual interactions 141 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,880 there are. But the Samaritan woman is one of the, I think, 142 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:02,800 most distinctive ones. So in John four, you have Jesus 143 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:08,080 meeting the Samaritan woman by the well. I think why I wanted 144 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,800 to talk about it and think about it a bit is actually thinking 145 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:15,040 about history of interpretation. So how have we treated that? I 146 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,320 don't know what your experiences of hearing it taught and 147 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:22,960 churches are. But mine has been quite often, it's just got this 148 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:24,440 very sinful past and 149 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,360 Yeah, it's all climaxing in you've had a lot of blokes in 150 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:29,720 your life. This is the problem. 151 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,200 I think what's helpful in going through it and actually seeing 152 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:37,520 how is Jesus responding to her? What's John pulling out, as 153 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,160 well as he's portraying it. It's helpful to step back and think, 154 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:48,120 well, what are we reading in that's not there? And I think 155 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,960 thinking about this idea of her being sinful or having all these 156 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,480 husbands, that is that doesn't seem to be Jesus's focus. And it 157 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:02,160 doesn't seem to be John's focus. It's just even thinking about 158 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:06,280 the cultural background of it is well, if a woman has had all 159 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,560 these husbands in that time period, it's likely she's been 160 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:13,920 abandoned, rather than that she's just a loose woman, 161 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,160 flitting from one man to another. And so starting to get 162 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,200 behind that a bit, I think is really helpful. But also just 163 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,320 thinking what images are there, so you've got the image of the 164 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:29,880 well, and that kind of touches into some of John pulling out 165 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:34,600 Old Testament imagery and things too. But wells have this 166 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:39,440 betrothal scene idea behind them, you have Jacob's well is 167 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:44,320 probably in view here. And it's picking up on language we've 168 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,760 already had in John as well. You've had John to the wedding at 169 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:52,600 Cana, you have in John 329. John the Baptist has just said, I'm 170 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,760 like the bridegroom's friend preparing the way and so this is 171 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:00,320 sort of preparing us preparing the way for us to start seeing 172 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,400 some further betrothal bridegroom, Jesus as the 173 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:09,920 bridegroom imagery. So how that works with the Samaritan woman 174 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:16,560 is if she's representing Samaria, and Jesus is a man 175 00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:20,560 from Judea coming, and this is a betrothal scene of the two of 176 00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:26,360 them coming together. This is Mary Callow's done a lot of work 177 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,440 on this of actually this is the uniting of the two kingdoms 178 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:34,480 again, the north and the south coming together, Jesus making 179 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:35,600 his people one. 180 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,360 The dialogue does end with her stressing doesn't it? You Jews 181 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,320 and we Samaritans worship here, that's quite strong towards the 182 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:43,560 end. 183 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:47,160 Yeah, that's right. So there are lots of clues that build up to 184 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:51,160 that sort of characterization of Jesus as the bridegroom. So by 185 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,800 the time you get to John for in the ways that Sydney said, he's 186 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:59,880 been developed as the bridegroom to then to have that scene set up 187 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:06,560 with the well and the seeking after water. If you're familiar 188 00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:09,360 with lots of those narratives from Genesis of people seeking 189 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:14,320 seeking brides, then you'd see some parallels there in 190 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:19,320 particular to a noonday scene. So that's particularly reminiscent 191 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:24,000 of the Jacob narrative. And so there are some hints there that 192 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:28,320 that's how these characters might be functioning. When you 193 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:33,000 set the woman next to Nicodemus in John three, you've got some 194 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,760 interesting comparison and contrast. Again, it's one of the 195 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,000 ways that John will help you work out what do I make of this 196 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:43,040 character to set at least some characters up in pairs. Nicodemus 197 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:47,000 the insider of the kind of heart of the temple and Jerusalem 198 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,840 establishment, the Samaritan woman on the edge of things. 199 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,040 You've got a you've got a man and a woman you've got a night 200 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,960 time scene with Nicodemus and a noonday scene with the woman. 201 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,400 So you'll be invited to see them in in their contrasting 202 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,640 responses to Jesus, but also in that in their social status. So 203 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,120 the the fact that this is a woman, the fact that this is a 204 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,760 Samaritan, those things are being highlighted for us as part 205 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,480 of the significance. So yeah, that that sort of builds that 206 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:16,000 picture. 207 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,520 Yeah, and I mean, I guess it's setting the scenes there is sort 208 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:25,640 of what's happening in John four, if we're if we want to go back 209 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,120 to characterization, think about that. More specifically, I think 210 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,280 the other things that are really interesting is the woman's 211 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:35,160 clearly trustworthy, that she goes back to the town tells the 212 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,120 townspeople I've found this man who's told me everything I've 213 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:42,200 ever done come see him and they all come out. And so there is, I 214 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:46,560 think that that pushes back at some of this idea that she's 215 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,960 she's very untrustworthy or anything, but actually, she is 216 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:55,240 someone that they want to listen to. And then thinking about how 217 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,240 characterization works for us as the readers, she seems to be set 218 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,080 forward in contrast in academia, as actually, this is this is a 219 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:08,160 good example of discipleship is she's she's heard this, she may 220 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,400 not have the full picture, but she's certainly grasped a lot of 221 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,480 Jesus's identity, gone back and told people about it and they 222 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:20,120 come and there is quite a great response among the Samaritans 223 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:21,040 after that. 224 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,840 So I suppose one that is this helpful to say in some ways, 225 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,200 everyone is going to do characterization, and I think 226 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,280 everyone is going to do characterization, everyone is 227 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,800 everyone is going to read these texts and find some way to draw 228 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,520 some conclusions, you just, you have to in John's Gospel to, to 229 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,160 come away with some sense of what is what is the role of this 230 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,280 woman. And as we've said, that the history of interpretation 231 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,840 is, it's just really mixed in it. Calvin, for example, says, 232 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,800 well, she's had five husbands, clearly, then she's 233 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,800 argumentative and difficult to live with. As if, as if that's 234 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,560 the only kind of way that you might, you might interpret that 235 00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:59,560 situation, the ways in which she would be far more vulnerable in 236 00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:03,600 the ways that that sin is expressed, would be just as easy, 237 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,760 good, just as plausible ways to kind of explain her 238 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,640 circumstances. But you, you read it in the context of John, and 239 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,680 you realize here in some ways is a is a model response to Jesus, 240 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:20,600 you see, as we said, him interacting with her, her going 241 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,640 away from that and telling her townspeople and being a kind of 242 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,440 model witness. So there's the something going which he's just 243 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,960 a model disciple. And that's something that others in 244 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,640 historical readings of John have picked up on. John Chrysostom 245 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,360 in his sermons on on her, praises her as a great model of 246 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,680 faith. It's a really, really distinctive emphasis in his 247 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,880 stuff. But then as we've we've said, it's, it also as well as 248 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,240 just giving you a model response to Jesus, it does also build 249 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,520 this picture of Jesus as the one who's come together, not just, 250 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:58,840 not just Judah, but Samaria. And, and so that, that openness to 251 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:03,840 to a variety of meanings and significances to a story. Yeah, 252 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,400 yeah, challenging. I Yeah, it's one of the things I most love 253 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,200 about John's gospel. It's one thing having been having 254 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,120 teaching it for some years now, still feel slightly out of 255 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,800 grasp slightly. There's just always more. 256 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,480 Well, yeah, particularly, that's a lot of people's 257 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,360 experience, particularly with John's, particularly with 258 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,920 John's gospel. Yes, I've lately been reading Augustine sermons 259 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:29,480 on John and he, he's also very strong on the Samaritan now 260 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,560 represents the foreigner. So, so this is in effect the marriage 261 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,560 of Christ and, and the church drawn from all nations. That's 262 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,960 he doesn't particularly make much of the bridegroom imagery 263 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,000 on the surface, but that's clearly in the background for 264 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:48,120 the way he's interpreting this. You know, I thought this 265 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,320 occurring to me as we're talking about this. So we're talking 266 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:56,360 about potentially some uncertainties around 267 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,360 interpretation and characterisation. Is it this? Is it 268 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:07,320 that? Or is it explicitly ambiguous? And I mean, just on 269 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,120 practic, some practicalities of ministry, someone preparing a 270 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,880 Bible study on this, or even just having a quiet time on it, 271 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,960 or a sermon or something, is often needing to get something 272 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,960 or they feel they need to get something definite in a very 273 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:26,920 limited number of hours. But with characters, it can often 274 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:31,960 feel like, yet, to what extent is the woman? It might be that 275 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,520 she has been abused by others. But yet she does say everything 276 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:40,320 I've ever done. And there is a strange, strange tradition that 277 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,760 says no, there is an element in which she's not entirely 278 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,120 exemplary, although she then becomes an exemplary witness. So 279 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:52,360 there are all these ambiguities around. How does someone who is 280 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:57,000 not writing a PhD on this passage, but is they've got a 281 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,520 small number of hours in which to produce some word ministry 282 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,160 in which they can't really stand there and go, well, on the one 283 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,760 hand and on the other hand, but I don't really know. That's a 284 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,960 massive question. But how are we going to go about that kind of 285 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:18,200 thing? Yeah, so I think in in John's Gospel, a close reading 286 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,560 without a PhD still helps you work out, I think, the 287 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,880 significance of the vast majority of characters in the 288 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:30,840 way that there is clearly some intentional pairing between 289 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:36,120 Nicodemus and the Samaritan woman, the blind man in John 290 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:42,200 nine being a really clear model witness under fire testifying to 291 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:47,320 what Jesus has done for him. So not not every character is so 292 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,480 laden with ambiguity that it's just very hard to make a 293 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:54,200 judgment about it. Yeah. Some of the characters I think are and 294 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,840 that's, that's really the point. It's, it's not a shortcoming 295 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,160 of us and our prep that we haven't been able to clearly 296 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:06,840 identify somebody. So the one of the one of the criticisms that 297 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,480 sometimes made about John's Gospel is, is that it's very 298 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,920 black and white. There's light and the darkness. There's 299 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:17,880 there's, there's good and there's evil. There's life and 300 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,240 there's death. And John does God's your father or the devil's 301 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,720 your father. Exactly, exactly. It all seems very black and 302 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,600 white. And actually what a lot of this characterization does 303 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,480 is, is soften that and acknowledge that actually, 304 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,240 particular people, particular points in their life are going 305 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,440 to be somewhere on that spectrum are going to be moving a little 306 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,320 more towards the light or, or a little bit more towards the 307 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:44,520 darkness. And that, that's okay. I think there's, and that's 308 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:50,440 just true to life. So the example would be Nicodemus who, 309 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:58,120 at least in in John three, is clearly in his response to Jesus 310 00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:01,240 he, he's not able to grasp the things that a teacher of Israel 311 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,240 ought to be able to grasp. And, and something of, there's 312 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,800 something of the night about him in the sense that he is, he's 313 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,800 left in the dark. But come John chapter seven, Nicodemus is 314 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,840 there and he's now the voice pushing back a little bit on the 315 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,400 other Jewish leaders and their plans for Jesus and 316 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,560 understanding of him. Come chapter 19, he's there and he's 317 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:27,240 maybe doing more than he knows, but, but, but providing some 318 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,920 sort of signal of Jesus's worth and kingship in the things that 319 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,480 he takes to the tomb. So there's some sense of people make 320 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,840 progress. One encounter doesn't tell you everything about 321 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,520 somebody. There's just quite a lot about life and ministry to 322 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:43,720 learn from, from that. 323 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,640 Which is maybe a good metaphor for approaching John in general 324 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:53,400 is at each encounter with John, just like all of scripture, it's, 325 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,880 it's, you're going to get some things, but not everything from 326 00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:00,680 it. And so, so for the person trying to prepare, it's okay if 327 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:06,600 you're not getting every nuance or every bit of it actually take 328 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:11,560 what you can and, and go with it. And God is speaking through 329 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:12,040 that. 330 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,560 Yeah, that's really helpful. Surely we would, we would, we 331 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,200 would, the point to worry about ourselves is if we think we've 332 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,800 kind of got John's nuances all sorted out. Yeah, absolutely. 333 00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:25,160 I mean, you mentioned Nicodemus there, actually, as you were 334 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,920 speaking, I remembered reading a book, Eurocircle, which I found 335 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,800 massively helpful. I think it's called interpreting gospel 336 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,360 narratives. And he, the author did a really nice thing with 337 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:37,400 Nicodemus. It's by, by a man with a splendid or nearly 338 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:42,360 splendid name of Timothy Wearder, W-I-A-R-D-A, which is, 339 00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:45,400 he overshoots a great name by two letters. You can't, you 340 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,160 can't have everything. But I, again, if people want to, anybody 341 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,080 watching wants to pick that up. It wasn't terribly expensive. 342 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,240 And I found that massively helpful in just doing some very, 343 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,280 very careful reading of, of, particularly of 344 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:01,080 characterization. 345 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:06,280 David, you mentioned the blind man very briefly. I'd love to 346 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,080 hear you talk a bit more about characterization of him. 347 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,880 Yeah, we're into chapter nine here. We're into chapter nine. 348 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,040 I, maybe we should do, play this game later on of, who's your 349 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,600 favourite character in John's gospel? The blind man hands 350 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,000 down is my favourite character in John's gospel, you know, 351 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:27,320 second to Jesus. So, again, one of the questions that still 352 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,720 revolves around, I remember reading somebody on the 353 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,000 significance of anonymity in John's gospel. If you've got 354 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,200 help for me now or later, please do help me out. And I 355 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,200 think that the idea that the, the positive, the most positive 356 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,080 characters in John's gospel are anonymous rather than named, 357 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,680 is a theory that's got some legs. You think about the 358 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,720 beloved disciple. You think about the blind man, you think 359 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,520 about the Samaritan woman. Whereas you think some of the 360 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,120 named characters are more negative in their 361 00:21:56,120 --> 00:22:01,640 characterization. So Nicodemus, arguably in contrast to the 362 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,000 Samaritan woman, kind of, you know, the character of the 363 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,720 Samaritan woman, Caiaphas and others, doesn't work entirely. 364 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,520 You've got, you've got a Mary and a Lazarus and a Martha and 365 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:18,520 a Peter. But the, but the significance of the blind man, 366 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,480 though he's not named, he's given this wonderful long 367 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:28,360 section. In some ways, he stands for all of us, someone who 368 00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:33,320 is brought to sight. And I mean, certainly just then you're, 369 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,760 kind of, you thought about coming back to John each time 370 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:41,480 and discovering a little bit more sight and, and, and God 371 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,640 kindly illuminating us a little more. There's just, there's a 372 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,960 lovely way in which that happens through that narrative, 373 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,800 precisely through the trouble he gets in. So he has been 374 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,400 healed by Jesus. He's, he's kind of asked to, to explain 375 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,080 this, to defend it. And, and through that whole process, he 376 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:03,240 grows in confidence. He grows in, in clarity about who Jesus 377 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:11,320 is. And, and in lots of ways, he becomes a model for, for every 378 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,680 believer to enjoy the kind of experience that Jesus prepares 379 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,400 his followers for in the upper room. So, you know, there in the 380 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,880 upper room, Jesus talks about this time when he's going to be 381 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,560 absent, he's going to provide the Spirit, he's going to enable 382 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,760 his people to witness and testify to a world that is going 383 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:32,520 to hate them. And I mean, this is, this is some, some stuff 384 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,240 that Peter Lightheart has written really well on, little 385 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:40,280 book called Deep Exegesis. He asks what, why do you get such a 386 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,800 long scene there in John nine? Why, why does the blind man have 387 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,440 such time? And why does Jesus disappear for so long? He's 388 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,400 absent from the narrative for an extraordinarily long period of 389 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,000 time. And it's, it's precisely so that you get this little 390 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,920 anticipation of the church's own experience of coming under 391 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,680 fire being called upon to give testimony to Jesus, and 392 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,200 experiencing something of the irrationality of those who are 393 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,600 refusing to listen to testimony. He says it, his parents say it, 394 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:17,400 really obvious this guy has been healed by Jesus. And, and so, 395 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,760 so there's something just, just very powerful and wonderful in 396 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,720 the way that, that he, he presents the calling of the 397 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:29,400 church. Tremendous, tremendous. I got, I got so many questions 398 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:37,960 over reading characters, and particularly in John. We're 399 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,920 often building, when we're getting to grips with what a 400 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,000 text might be telling us and showing us about a particular 401 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:50,760 character, we're piecing a composite picture together out 402 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,760 of small details in the text, out of a big picture of the 403 00:24:54,760 --> 00:25:00,360 flow of the narrative. And at the same time, because these 404 00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:03,400 are people, we are always reading things in. So Siddy, I 405 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,120 mean, he quite rightly said with chapter four, this is, there's 406 00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:09,400 a whole tradition of just reading in, she's had five men, 407 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,480 and so I just, without even thinking about it, I sort of 408 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,600 reach into my cultural view of the world and go, well, she 409 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:22,360 must be this kind of person or that. How do we, what do we 410 00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:28,120 have to do more and more to be better readers of how characters 411 00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:29,880 are presented to us in scripture? What are the things 412 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,360 we need to do? What are the things we need to be aware of? 413 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,480 That's such a good question. And in some ways, Tim, I'd love 414 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,160 to hear what you think about it. Let me, let me tell one 415 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:50,600 thing in and then let's hear from you guys. John, I think, is 416 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:55,480 particularly rich in symbolism. And that does give you a steer 417 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,240 on how to read. So I would feel less confident about our 418 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:04,920 reading of the Samaritan woman if there hadn't been six water 419 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:11,240 jars in John 2. So in John 2, the wedding at Cana, you've got 420 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:17,240 Jesus who's going to turn water into wine and six ceremonial 421 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:24,200 water jars are filled up and then turned to wine. The fact 422 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,120 that there are six, again, in John's gospel, you get so many 423 00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:32,360 sevens as a pattern of completeness and you get a repeated 424 00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:36,280 pattern of sixes as signifying something that comes short of 425 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,280 that, that stops short of perfection and completion. So I 426 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,040 think as Jesus teaches about the perfect cleansing that he 427 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,360 brings, to have six stone water jars that bring an incomplete 428 00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:54,200 and inadequate sort of cleansing is a striking thing. To then 429 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,840 meet a woman who's had five husbands and the man that she's 430 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,520 now with is not her husband, which gets you to six. And then 431 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,720 you have a betrothal scene and she meets Jesus and he is the 432 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:11,560 Messiah and the bridegroom. Makes you think we've seen again 433 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:20,440 something of a very Jewish heritage, the ceremonial waters 434 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:26,200 that don't cleanse, something of her background and Jesus 435 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:31,560 bringing the fulfillment and completion of that. So John, in 436 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:37,160 a lot of those details is I think communicating a lot to us 437 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,880 and teaching us, schooling us in paying attention to those 438 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,520 details. There are lots of examples I could give you where 439 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,000 I'm still not quite sure what to do with this detail or that 440 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,920 detail, but certain patterns emerge. That wouldn't be true 441 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,280 for every narrative that you're reading. What would be, Tim, 442 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:58,440 what in your mind would be just some broader guidelines to 443 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:03,240 grow in this habit, this scale? I'm with you really. We have 444 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:08,440 to become better and better listeners to the text that is 445 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:13,160 in front of us. And it's hard to come up with just a blueprint 446 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,160 for that because John writes differently from others. So it's 447 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,560 learning to tune our ear to how has he written? How did the 448 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,880 Holy Spirit cause him to write as the writer that he was? How 449 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:31,480 has he put down these patterns of symbolism? Now, particularly 450 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,560 that will be a challenge for us when there's a way of writing 451 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,200 that doesn't come naturally to us because of our cultural 452 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:42,840 background or mindset. And that is where knowing how texts have 453 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,560 been interpreted by people from different cultures in the past 454 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,000 and different cultures around the world now is enormously 455 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:56,520 helpful. I can remember, this is Luke, but a while ago, sitting 456 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:03,000 with a group of Brits and some people from Africa reading from 457 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:09,000 Luke 1, Elizabeth and Zechariah. And the Brits immediately 458 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,880 assumed that the passage was there to focus on Zechariah and 459 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,680 didn't really pick up about what Elizabeth says about shame 460 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:23,240 around disgrace taken away. Because of course, on the whole, 461 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,440 contemporary Brits are not linking childlessness with 462 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:32,600 shame. They'd link unwanted childlessness with grief and 463 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,560 sadness, but not with public shame. But the Africans around 464 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,760 the table, when asked what's this about, were just zooming in 465 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,920 on Elizabeth because childlessness in their culture 466 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,680 still has an element of public shame around it. So there's an 467 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:53,320 example where just blinded by cultural lenses, so what can we 468 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,320 do? Well, I think more as far as we are able. Reading 469 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,640 commentaries which gives some access to the history of the 470 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,320 interpretation of passages, but also, and more as we know, more 471 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,400 and more of these are being published now, which give 472 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,440 insight into how people from different cultures read this. 473 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,080 Because, okay, they will have their own blind spots, but 474 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,160 they'll be different from ours and they will see things that 475 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,160 we don't. That's why I think why your Samaritan woman example 476 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,800 is such a brilliant one. Yeah, and I mean, I think kind of 477 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,320 picking up on that some of what I've found really helpful is 478 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,560 there have been a few commentaries by some female 479 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,280 scholars that have opened some stuff up for me, mainly around 480 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,840 the Samaritan woman, but other things throughout John. And so 481 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,400 I think that's the same, different gender, different 482 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,280 culture, different, if we can be hearing each other's 483 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:49,480 voices on this. Do you want to say a bit more about that, about 484 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:54,200 how female eyes just might approach chapter four 485 00:30:54,200 --> 00:31:00,920 differently? Yeah, I think even just if you're reading what 486 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:08,280 Calvin has to say about it, it frankly, it hurts actually to 487 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,800 think, well, here's a female character interacting with Jesus 488 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:18,360 and as a woman myself, you think that's, is that really, I'm 489 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:23,000 not sure that's what Jesus is getting at. And so pushing into 490 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,800 it a bit and seeing actually what are the other details 491 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,320 there. Now, I should obviously have my own hermeneutics of 492 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,520 suspicion against my own reading and my own feelings, but 493 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:38,840 I think, yeah, I think it just opens up those questions of is 494 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,560 this actually where the text is going and what it's actually 495 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:48,120 leading into? Is this a result of misogynistic readings or 496 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:52,920 cultural assumptions or and I think that's if we're approaching 497 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,120 the text thinking, am I reading something into this? Am I 498 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,400 missing something? I think that's a really helpful guard to 499 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:07,000 importing your own ideas. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, lots of these 500 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:12,280 stories are just designed to subvert what would be very 501 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,800 common expectations of how this story is going to go. Yeah. And 502 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,440 so being alert to that and allowing myself to be surprised 503 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,280 and not to insist I know how this story goes. So, you know, 504 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:31,560 that's you would just expect Nicodemus to be to be the to 505 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,120 give it, it'd be very easy to give him the benefit of the 506 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,080 doubt because he's the kind of knowledgeable professional 507 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:42,760 theologian in that sort of setting. And, and actually what 508 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,360 what these narratives are very often doing are overturning 509 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,880 those sorts of expectations. I mean, the Luke birth narrative 510 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,560 is a really nice example of that too, where you've got 511 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,160 another real insider, you've got Zechariah there in the temple, 512 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,920 his response is unbelief and he struck dumb, compare that to 513 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:06,520 Mary, who in lots of ways is much less the likely character to 514 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:13,320 to respond in that way. In not. Yeah, not not having the 515 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:17,240 advantages that the Zechariah does. And yet there is the 516 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,000 kind of shining and immediate response of faith. It's 517 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,960 beautiful. This is great stuff. I mean, as you were talking, I 518 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,960 mean, I've been interested in characters for a while for sort 519 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,160 of from my side of things. As I've been as you've been 520 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,000 talking, I've been thinking it might it be that one of the 521 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,040 reasons why the Lord has given us so many of these narratives 522 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:42,280 with characters in his word to us, it's, you know, it's a 523 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,720 shortage book and it is his word for all time for all peoples. 524 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,680 There will be many, many different kinds of character for 525 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,400 many, many different kinds of people to see aspects of 526 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:56,920 themselves as a mirror held up to them. And so I'm just being 527 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,480 the person I am. I will read some characters better than 528 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,600 others and other people will read other characters better 529 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,840 than I do, which I think, you know, if I'm a preacher or a 530 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,200 pastor that I seem to be I've got to be listening to how as 531 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,400 far as possible to how a lot of different people who are 532 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,800 believers, how they interact with those characters. Sometimes 533 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,720 I may think somebody's missed something in the text, but other 534 00:34:19,720 --> 00:34:22,920 times I'll hear someone who's just different from me saying, 535 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,280 well, I see this and I would never have thought of it. But 536 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,480 there it is. And you look again and go, actually, that really 537 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:34,120 is there. And so what just press out a bit further. Is the 538 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,440 kind of sense then that something for everybody God has 539 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,080 given such a kind of gallery of characters that there's 540 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:45,000 somebody for everybody to relate to or should I am I being 541 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,160 pushed to relate to characters who I wouldn't naturally be 542 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:52,680 drawn to just. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Because it seems 543 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:57,640 to be the the relating to characters thing is just 544 00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,800 happening all the time subconsciously, even if someone 545 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,200 kids themselves, they're so scientifically analytically 546 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,600 minded that that's not happening. If they are a human 547 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,000 being, they are relating to characters. So you might as well 548 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,640 acknowledge that you are getting out there on the table. 549 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,480 And if you're not relating at all, you check your pulse. 550 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:20,840 There might be a problem. And some of that relating, then 551 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,200 what do you do then do? Then you test it by the text. This is 552 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,920 my gut reaction in relation to this character, as in, oh, my 553 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:32,040 goodness, that's me. Or, oh, I'm really concerned now. I didn't 554 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,360 think I was like that. But maybe this is holding up a 555 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,360 mirror and I kind of am. Or this isn't me at all. I don't do 556 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,160 that kind of thing. What is this? Or that's obviously her 557 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,800 over there revealing how annoying she is or whatever it is. 558 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,360 Get all that out there on the table and then just in light of 559 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,920 that, just begin now to ask yourself, is this text revealing 560 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,240 things that are true about me that I didn't think were true, 561 00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:05,480 but maybe they are? Or this is showing me something about 562 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:11,400 myself, but I'm more like a woman in chapter four than I am 563 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,560 like Nicodemus in chapter three. Yes, the characters are 564 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,720 presented here. But my view of myself is that I'm a Nicodemus 565 00:36:17,720 --> 00:36:21,400 in the world, not apparently a relevant Samaritan woman in the 566 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:27,560 world. So yeah, there'll be a holding up a mirror. I now see 567 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,920 things about myself, but there will be a pushing. You don't see 568 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,640 yourself this way, do you? But actually, the Lord's truth 569 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,640 about you is bigger than you would acknowledge. I'm kind of 570 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,640 rambling, but that kind of very, I mean, what sense do you make 571 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:49,960 of that, Sydney? Yeah, I think that is definitely one way 572 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,560 characterization is helpful. And I think even pushing beyond 573 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,600 that, it's not even just about understanding ourselves 574 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,560 through it either. I think one of the things the different 575 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,840 characters in John's gospel can help with is actually thinking 576 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,240 about all the sorts of people you're going to encounter in 577 00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:11,000 ministry or in life and actually their different responses 578 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:17,160 to you, to you talking about Jesus with them is, I think 579 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,720 that is a really helpful thing. And John is what you were 580 00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:23,880 talking about, the sort of ambiguity and development and 581 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,320 like with Nicodemus moving. It's not just black and white. It's 582 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,200 not just you're either a believer or a non-believer, not 583 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,000 either just in the light or in the darkness. Some people are 584 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,600 moving towards the light. Some people move towards the light or 585 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,680 seem to and then move back to the darkness. And I think 586 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,520 that's another way of characterization helps us 587 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:51,480 understand what's happening in the world is actually, ah, okay, 588 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:56,680 I've seen that response in my parish or in my small group. 589 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,280 Okay, I kind of have a better understanding of 590 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,320 this is how some people are going to respond. Yeah, thank 591 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,040 you. That's hugely helpful what this reveals about others. 592 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,440 Well, now look, we could spend more time on characterization. 593 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:13,320 We said we're going to shift gear. So shorter time now, 594 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,320 John's gospel in relation to the ladders. 595 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,280 Somebody kick us off. Well, let's draw, we could draw one line 596 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:21,960 straight towards that theme from what we've been talking 597 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:26,920 about so far, which would be just the potential for you to 598 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,720 see those sorts of individual responses and reactions in the 599 00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:33,480 people that you minister to as well the opportunity of all of 600 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,160 God's people to play their part in themselves becoming 601 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,480 characters, becoming people worthy of imitation and study. 602 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,160 So in three, John, that theme comes through really quite 603 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:49,480 clearly where you've got the language of imitation. John 604 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,640 writes there, imitate the good, but either side of that 605 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,080 instruction that could be quite abstract, the good in some 606 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,880 abstract way, he's actually talking about either being a 607 00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:03,320 Demetrius or being a diatrophies, either being somebody 608 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,920 who is a model believer in the way that they extend 609 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:12,360 hospitality and support faithful believers or somebody who 610 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:17,000 loves to be first like a diatrophies. And so one of the 611 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,080 lovely things about the letters is you see that same 612 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,200 dynamic continuing on of different responses being 613 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:29,800 worked out to the gospel and the cast of characters 614 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:36,520 extending to John himself in his ministry to a Demetrius, 615 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:41,000 to a diatrophies. Yeah, and so I mean this is something we 616 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:46,760 talk about in class is reading John's gospel alongside the 617 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,400 letters and actually thinking about how do you do that and 618 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,920 how do those go together and doing some practice and 619 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,600 actually reading them together. And I think one of the 620 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:01,800 things you see is at the end of John you get the statement of 621 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,840 those who haven't seen, blessed are those who haven't seen and 622 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:11,400 believe and the letters move into that territory of working 623 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,760 with groups of Christians who have come to believe but 624 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:20,680 weren't there in the upper room with Jesus. So one of the 625 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,840 exercises we did in class was have the upper room discourse 626 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,280 from John 13 to 17 read alongside one John and actually 627 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,960 thinking about well how do these inform each other? How do 628 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,960 you think about them? And there was one article we went 629 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:43,080 through by a guy called John Yarad. John Yarad? I think you 630 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,080 sent it to me. Okay, I forgot a lot of things. We'll look 631 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,680 back and find it but what he does is he picks up on these 632 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,240 themes that are in the upper room discourse in particular 633 00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:58,280 but are also in one John and just sort of put them alongside 634 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:03,400 each other and say well how do you, how do these help 635 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,760 sharpen? I think he has this imagery of reading the two 636 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,280 alongside each other is like looking through a diamond as 637 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,720 things become clearer they enhance each other and so that's 638 00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:17,320 what we tried to do is how do these enhance each other? And 639 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,960 two particular themes that really stuck out are if you 640 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:26,360 break the upper room discourse sort of in half it's like love 641 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:30,600 of God and then the hatred of the world is two big themes. 642 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:36,680 Well those come out all across one John is the world hates you 643 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:40,280 or the hatred of the world or hating brothers and sisters and 644 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:46,120 that sort of theme and actually part of having the upper 645 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,080 room discourse and having that right next to one John is well 646 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,840 Jesus said that was going to happen so for those of you now 647 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,600 experiencing this hatred of the world that's not, that 648 00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,200 shouldn't be a surprise. Jesus said that to his disciples and 649 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:06,360 said this was coming. Let's think back to that and 650 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,360 think through what are we promised to help us through 651 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,880 that? Well we have the Holy Spirit 652 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,280 with us as we continue to testify to a world that hates 653 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,600 Jesus and so I think two and three John move into this even 654 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,960 more about the kind of practical outworkings of that but one John 655 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,120 is picking up on that statement from the upper room discourse in 656 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,960 the same way it's picking up on the command to love a new 657 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:38,760 command I give you love one another and what we did in class 658 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:43,160 is think well what you get statements in one John about 659 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,880 what that looks like because it's this is how we know love. 660 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:50,680 Yeah. Jesus died for us if you think back to the upper room 661 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,360 discourse in John 13 in particular one of the examples 662 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:59,640 of love is the foot washing scene and that is this example 663 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:04,040 of Jesus loving people who are about to betray him and washing 664 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,920 their feet with Judas and Peter with his upcoming denial as 665 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:13,960 well and so when you have these commands in one John of loving 666 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,560 one another and loving each other it is a it's a command to 667 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:22,760 serve in the way that Jesus served in humble service of each 668 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,200 other so those were a few examples we worked through in 669 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:31,320 class and you've done a bit on two and three John and sort of 670 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,760 how that takes forward a lot of what happens in John's gospel 671 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,800 too. Just before it'd be great to get just could I just ask 672 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,080 you a bit more just reflecting on what's going on there that's 673 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,360 that's really interesting so have I got this right effectively 674 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,560 what's going on there is you've got I mean obviously one John 675 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,120 it's not a very long letter so there's not a lot John doesn't 676 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,600 take a lot of time to spell out what he might mean by 677 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,920 particular things you've got these commands love one another 678 00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,880 now someone could picking that up could preach or teach that 679 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:02,760 and just fill in the content of what it means to love each 680 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,960 other in all sorts of ways that just kind of occur to them in 681 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:09,880 the moment the be in their bonnet or the thing that they 682 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,400 think their home group needs to really hear that or something 683 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,400 and what you're doing there is saying well now read this in 684 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,480 light of John's gospel and the kind of love one another now 685 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:25,320 comes with a certain content to it. I mean would you would you go 686 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,840 as far as saying read those commands in the letter in light 687 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:34,520 of chapter 13 to 17 and that now that now is the core content 688 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:38,200 of what he means in the letter or is it is it an option for 689 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,760 sharpening I mean how how tightly do you want to read them 690 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:47,560 together? Yeah I think I think it does set the context for it 691 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:52,280 in that if you're going back to the upper room discourse that 692 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:56,760 is where the command to love is given and and and that is where 693 00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:03,000 the new command comes from and so I do think you need that 694 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,920 context and that sharpening now I think it can be sharpened 695 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:11,240 and it can be applied and yeah obviously it's going to look 696 00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:14,280 different in different contexts of what that on the ground 697 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:19,000 means but setting it within the big framework of service down 698 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:23,000 to oneself that following Jesus's example that's what you 699 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:28,120 see really sharply in John 13 to 17. Great thank you I I 700 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,920 budded in you were going on to two and three John. No no I 701 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,320 think you just yeah you see exactly those those same things 702 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:37,880 where in in one John in two John in particular you get that 703 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,760 repeated love one another command to walk in love that's 704 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,840 that's what the father has commanded in two John and that's 705 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:51,720 that is a lovely way that the Christian life gets distilled 706 00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:54,440 down really beautifully and really simply so I think it's 707 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,640 one of the one of the gifts of something like two John is to 708 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,400 say to God's people you might you might have been trained to 709 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,760 think that God expects you to do a hundred things a day and 710 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,520 that that's a measure of success today and you'll get 711 00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,200 to the end of your day thinking I've not I've not managed that 712 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,800 many things or I'm at a stage in life where actually I can I 713 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,080 can just about manage to feed my baby and and get the washing 714 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:23,800 done or my body is now in a state which means I can hardly 715 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:28,440 do anything in a day for for two John to take the Christian 716 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:33,000 life and boil it down to love one another and and to walk in 717 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:38,760 love that that three four mile an hour pace of doing one thing 718 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:40,920 that the Lord has commanded us to do there's something really 719 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,960 beautiful about the way that that gets distilled down but as 720 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:48,680 as Cindy's been saying the John's gospel has to be the way 721 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:52,440 that we interpret what it and what that means to so that as 722 00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,560 you as you were saying Tim we don't fill that command to love 723 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,680 one another with whatever we think that might mean when John 724 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,160 says that he's relying on everything that's come before 725 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:06,760 in the gospel it this love is a self-sacrificial costly love 726 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:12,760 till the end sort of love and so so you need the gospel to 727 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:17,480 understand two John and three John two John and three John 728 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,200 help you see some of the benefits of of boiling it right 729 00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:26,040 down to that in the end love one another but they also they do 730 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,320 help you move into that really contested stage of church life 731 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:33,160 when people are teaching falsely and so if in the upper 732 00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,040 room it might feel as if the church is the community of love 733 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,400 and the world is this place of hatred actually two and three 734 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:43,640 John and one John all take you into this territory where no 735 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,720 there are those who are going to be teaching falsely within 736 00:47:45,720 --> 00:47:49,880 the church and that you're going to be hatred and opposition 737 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:54,200 and division and just ambiguity who are the good guys here who 738 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,320 are the bad guys here do you believe you know diatrophies is 739 00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,960 speaking against Gaius in three John Gaius is speaking about 740 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:04,920 diatrophies who's in the right who's in the wrong who can you 741 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:10,200 trust those those those letters help you realize 742 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,880 all of that great theology of John's gospel comes to land in 743 00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,240 some of that dust some of that mess within the church as well 744 00:48:17,240 --> 00:48:20,200 as beyond it and that's that's something that I I would 745 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:24,280 imagine resonates pretty well for a lot of people in ministry 746 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,120 that's that's tremendous yeah I like those thoughts just as 747 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:32,200 you're talking all sorts of thoughts are sparking I I mean 748 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:36,200 in one John you know they they went out from us but they were 749 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,480 not of us so they seem to be of us and they're going out 750 00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,440 sure that they weren't well you're straight into that's 751 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,560 that's Judas isn't it and the is this right in one John the 752 00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,680 hatred of the brothers and sisters is particularly it's 753 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:53,160 those who will abandon them and move into error 754 00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,320 which is precisely what Judas does and it's those who will 755 00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,520 know who will abide in the faith and abide with one another 756 00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:06,280 together in that and then you're straight into the unity 757 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,440 of the church themes which you get towards the end of the 758 00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:13,160 upper room so that's that sounds tremendously fertile 759 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:18,280 territory which we don't have time to explore further now. 760 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,760 Did I give you a chance you may feel you've kind of said all 761 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,080 you want to say which is fine but on either of the topics 762 00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,400 we've talked about characterization or link with 763 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:31,560 the letters any final thoughts that occur to you that just 764 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:35,000 maybe just drop a final bomb before we before we finish or a 765 00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,440 final thought that would take something further. 766 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,320 One of as you're trying to ask what is John doing by 767 00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,560 presenting you with this great cast of characters which but 768 00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,000 we've spoken a lot about it but maybe one extra thing would be 769 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:52,680 to to call you to decision one of one of the things that John 770 00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:58,040 won't do is is let you hide you do need yourself to come to a 771 00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,960 decision you say in particular with the way that the crowd in 772 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:08,520 John as a sort of character is always fractured what John does 773 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,560 is with the crowd he'll often tell you well within the crowd 774 00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:13,480 some people are saying this and some people saying that and 775 00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:17,560 some people saying that he'll very often end a section like 776 00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,120 that with a question where somebody's just left a question 777 00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,640 hanging who is this and what sort of person can do this and 778 00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,400 the question just hangs and so one of the things to pay 779 00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:31,320 attention to in all of that is how I'm being invited to make 780 00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:36,040 my own decision I'm to identify with these different responses 781 00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:38,600 to Jesus in different ways but also need to come to my own 782 00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:40,680 decision and John is calling me to that. 783 00:50:41,720 --> 00:50:42,600 Great thank you. 784 00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:43,960 Oh I should have gone first. 785 00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:47,400 You can have that one too if you want that's fine. 786 00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:47,900 Ditto. 787 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:56,760 Yeah I think I think just I love John I've had such fun 788 00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:01,480 teaching John really really digging in and I think just I 789 00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,760 think almost more just repeating a point that I've already said 790 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:09,400 of just keep digging in and that's going to involve the call 791 00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:13,480 to decision but I think it's going to help sharpen and 792 00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:17,800 enrich your own experience of God's words and who God is and 793 00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:24,840 I think how to share Jesus with others too I think as you're 794 00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,280 thinking about different responses and things like that 795 00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:32,040 is actually just thinking about how Jesus met you in your 796 00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:35,560 individual circumstance and helping others have that 797 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:36,440 encounter as well. 798 00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:41,560 Wonderful so much more about John we could say but this has 799 00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:43,880 been enjoyable thank you great to have you with us for this 800 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,920 episode of Deep Roots we hope there's been good and fruitful 801 00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:50,440 things in it for you in your own reading of John's gospel and 802 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,360 ministry from John to others. 803 00:51:53,240 --> 00:51:56,600 There'll be a blog coming up in a week or two's time on the 804 00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,400 Oak Hill website that'll just take one or two of these things 805 00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,760 around John's gospel a bit further. We've also been planning 806 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,320 the next few episodes I'm not going to let the cat entirely 807 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,240 out of the bag but we've got some very interesting things 808 00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:10,760 coming up around the shape of patterns in church services 809 00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,240 there's a church nearby here which has done something really 810 00:52:13,240 --> 00:52:15,560 interesting we're going to be thinking around that plus also 811 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,720 more great goodies from the Oak Hill faculty and their 812 00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:22,440 tremendous biblical and theological learning so see you 813 00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:30,440 soon.