Hello and welcome to Deep Roots, the podcast brought to you from
Oak Hill College where we have conversations about theology and
ministry. My name is Tim Ward and I'm one of the lecturers here
and I'm joined today by Dr. Sydney Tooth and David Shaw who
both teach New Testament and Greek here. And we're talking
John's Gospel which I've preached on from time to time
but both of you teach courses on it here. So it's going to be
great to hear from you lots about John's Gospel. Now of
course, John's Gospel, there is so much we could talk about. We
could have multiple episodes on this. Just tell us which
particular topics we're going to focus in on today.
We are going to spend some time looking at characterisation in
John and get into a bit of reading John alongside the
Johannine Epistles as well.
We, Tim, we threw out a few different topics. You liked the
thought of characterisation and thought that would be a helpful
thing given how we sometimes approach John.
Yeah, that's true. Here's a question at a rehearsal, David,
I was going to ask you and you thrown back at me. Nice move. I
can see you coming. But it's fine. Yeah.
Characterisation. It's true, isn't it? In the last 30, 40
years in Gospel scholarship, but actually scholarship right
across biblical narrative, there's been quite a move to
think about how characters work within the narrative. I guess
within the broad heading of narrative criticism. Is that
true? That's been a move in the last 30, 40 years.
Yeah. So Alan Culpepper, Anatomy of the Fourth Gospel is
probably the kind of, I think that's the first big salvo. And
that's a bit of a move away from trying to think about John's
Gospel as a historical text to try and think about how we take
apart the text and think about the communities that were behind
it. And instead to read the text as a literary artifact and to
think about some of those categories of plot and character.
Yeah. And the way, I guess, preaching and teaching and
ministry from Gospels is sometimes thought about in regard
to the characters is you've kind of got two choices. You can do
character study or you can do, well, I'm just going to expand
this text as the text that it is. I'm interested in your
comments from each of you on this. I mean, my sense is that
thinking about how characters work actually within the warp
and woof of the narrative itself can help just kind of cut
through that and show that it's not necessarily one or the
other. And actually to expand the text without paying good
attention to character, if the characters are strongly part of
the narrative, seems like a false choice.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's if you're just
focusing on it as character study, you're missing actually
how John has woven in each of the characters. And what's he
doing with them? What is what does he trying to get out of his
reader by having these different characters and actually by
focusing on characterization, you can see the development of
his narrative, you can see where he's what responses he might be
trying to get us to have to each character and how they're
portrayed.
Yeah, that's right. I think the John very often is doing, there
are passages in John where so much of the work that he's doing
in thinking how to form us how to help us understand the
significance of Jesus is by presenting really quite close
character studies. It is where John's gospel stands out in some
ways, one of the ways in which it stands out from the other
gospels there, the way in which he will do lengthy scenes where
you've got Jesus interacting with a particular individual or
an individual on their own interacting with with others and
Jesus absent even for a time. So yeah, that seems that seems
significant. I suppose one of the concerns about the thought of
just doing character study that people might raise would be that
it you know, there's that famous Tim Keller clip that used to do
the rounds a lot that the that the gospel isn't about you. It's
not about you putting yourself in the shoes of this character
or that character and being the hero or being the villain or
something. It's not about you. It's about God. So preach God.
Right. There's something surely helpful in that there's
something really helpful in not just thinking where do I fit in
this story without without thinking about what story this is
telling about God and his his relation to us and so on. And
there are certainly I think parts of parts of the gospels or
other other places where to be too preoccupied with which
character I'm supposed to be identifying with here would be a
distraction. And yet, in so much narrative, John's gospel in
particular, that's, that's really the the way in which we're
invited to read, it seems to me.
Yeah, there's a quote I really like on this from a man called
Daniel Doriani, he's written a nice book on application. He's
actually thinking in context just talking about application
for scripture as a whole, but I think it applies quite nicely
here, where he says, in a narrative, look for the action
of God and the responses of people to that action of God as
it comes into their reality and into their lives. And that it
seems to me, I mean, it's a simple thing to say, but it
nicely shows you if we are preaching what the text says
about God, we are also going to be preaching what the text shows
us about human reactions and responses to that divine action
in the text, because that's how God has chosen to narrate it to
us.
Yeah, and I think, as you said, David, it is distinctive in John
that you have these long individual scenes with
characters as well. And you introduced me to a book chapter
by Bochum about individualism within John's gospel.
This is Richard Bochum.
Yes. Yeah. Really, really helpful chapter just actually
looking at what it means that Jesus meets each of these
characters in their own context and situation, and what that
means for the reader too, about thinking about how do we
individually encounter Jesus as well?
Would you recommend that book if someone wanted to chase these
things up further?
Yeah, absolutely. So it's a collection of essays called
Gospel of Glory. And inside there, there's a chapter called
individualism. Yeah, it's one of my favourite reads on John.
Really helpful. If you hear individualism, it's a
pretty negative thing. We want to avoid individualism.
Bochum is quite helpful to say there's a right kind of
individualism that comes through actually, to see Jesus'
encounters with individual people, says individuals matter
to Jesus, you see him interacting countlessly with
with men and women in different circumstances. There's something
there of God's individual care, where he knows his sheep by
name, you see that worked out in the way that he interacts with
individuals. And so it's a really good book. And I think
that's something that's really important to look at, is that
there's a way that God interacts with people, and he
interacts with people in a way that he doesn't just leave us
out in the way that he interacts with individuals. But then the
gospel doesn't just leave us as individuals, it does, it does
provide, the gospel provides the power to draw us out from any
sort of isolated, egotistical sort of individualism into a
community of love, but one in which we don't lose our
individuality, I think.
That's tremendous. Anything I read Richard Bourkeham having
written about, he's always thought about it way harder than
most other people, even if you don't agree with him. Yeah,
terrific. Okay, well, if that's characterization in general,
David, you just got there a little bit into some of the
specifics of John's characterization. So let's dive
in. Sydney, you wanted particularly to talk about
chapter four, didn't you?
Yes. Yeah.
Kick us off with that.
I mean, there's so many different characters you could
have, I'm trying to remember how many individual interactions
there are. But the Samaritan woman is one of the, I think,
most distinctive ones. So in John four, you have Jesus
meeting the Samaritan woman by the well. I think why I wanted
to talk about it and think about it a bit is actually thinking
about history of interpretation. So how have we treated that? I
don't know what your experiences of hearing it taught and
churches are. But mine has been quite often, it's just got this
very sinful past and
Yeah, it's all climaxing in you've had a lot of blokes in
your life. This is the problem.
I think what's helpful in going through it and actually seeing
how is Jesus responding to her? What's John pulling out, as
well as he's portraying it. It's helpful to step back and think,
well, what are we reading in that's not there? And I think
thinking about this idea of her being sinful or having all these
husbands, that is that doesn't seem to be Jesus's focus. And it
doesn't seem to be John's focus. It's just even thinking about
the cultural background of it is well, if a woman has had all
these husbands in that time period, it's likely she's been
abandoned, rather than that she's just a loose woman,
flitting from one man to another. And so starting to get
behind that a bit, I think is really helpful. But also just
thinking what images are there, so you've got the image of the
well, and that kind of touches into some of John pulling out
Old Testament imagery and things too. But wells have this
betrothal scene idea behind them, you have Jacob's well is
probably in view here. And it's picking up on language we've
already had in John as well. You've had John to the wedding at
Cana, you have in John 329. John the Baptist has just said, I'm
like the bridegroom's friend preparing the way and so this is
sort of preparing us preparing the way for us to start seeing
some further betrothal bridegroom, Jesus as the
bridegroom imagery. So how that works with the Samaritan woman
is if she's representing Samaria, and Jesus is a man
from Judea coming, and this is a betrothal scene of the two of
them coming together. This is Mary Callow's done a lot of work
on this of actually this is the uniting of the two kingdoms
again, the north and the south coming together, Jesus making
his people one.
The dialogue does end with her stressing doesn't it? You Jews
and we Samaritans worship here, that's quite strong towards the
end.
Yeah, that's right. So there are lots of clues that build up to
that sort of characterization of Jesus as the bridegroom. So by
the time you get to John for in the ways that Sydney said, he's
been developed as the bridegroom to then to have that scene set up
with the well and the seeking after water. If you're familiar
with lots of those narratives from Genesis of people seeking
seeking brides, then you'd see some parallels there in
particular to a noonday scene. So that's particularly reminiscent
of the Jacob narrative. And so there are some hints there that
that's how these characters might be functioning. When you
set the woman next to Nicodemus in John three, you've got some
interesting comparison and contrast. Again, it's one of the
ways that John will help you work out what do I make of this
character to set at least some characters up in pairs. Nicodemus
the insider of the kind of heart of the temple and Jerusalem
establishment, the Samaritan woman on the edge of things.
You've got a you've got a man and a woman you've got a night
time scene with Nicodemus and a noonday scene with the woman.
So you'll be invited to see them in in their contrasting
responses to Jesus, but also in that in their social status. So
the the fact that this is a woman, the fact that this is a
Samaritan, those things are being highlighted for us as part
of the significance. So yeah, that that sort of builds that
picture.
Yeah, and I mean, I guess it's setting the scenes there is sort
of what's happening in John four, if we're if we want to go back
to characterization, think about that. More specifically, I think
the other things that are really interesting is the woman's
clearly trustworthy, that she goes back to the town tells the
townspeople I've found this man who's told me everything I've
ever done come see him and they all come out. And so there is, I
think that that pushes back at some of this idea that she's
she's very untrustworthy or anything, but actually, she is
someone that they want to listen to. And then thinking about how
characterization works for us as the readers, she seems to be set
forward in contrast in academia, as actually, this is this is a
good example of discipleship is she's she's heard this, she may
not have the full picture, but she's certainly grasped a lot of
Jesus's identity, gone back and told people about it and they
come and there is quite a great response among the Samaritans
after that.
So I suppose one that is this helpful to say in some ways,
everyone is going to do characterization, and I think
everyone is going to do characterization, everyone is
everyone is going to read these texts and find some way to draw
some conclusions, you just, you have to in John's Gospel to, to
come away with some sense of what is what is the role of this
woman. And as we've said, that the history of interpretation
is, it's just really mixed in it. Calvin, for example, says,
well, she's had five husbands, clearly, then she's
argumentative and difficult to live with. As if, as if that's
the only kind of way that you might, you might interpret that
situation, the ways in which she would be far more vulnerable in
the ways that that sin is expressed, would be just as easy,
good, just as plausible ways to kind of explain her
circumstances. But you, you read it in the context of John, and
you realize here in some ways is a is a model response to Jesus,
you see, as we said, him interacting with her, her going
away from that and telling her townspeople and being a kind of
model witness. So there's the something going which he's just
a model disciple. And that's something that others in
historical readings of John have picked up on. John Chrysostom
in his sermons on on her, praises her as a great model of
faith. It's a really, really distinctive emphasis in his
stuff. But then as we've we've said, it's, it also as well as
just giving you a model response to Jesus, it does also build
this picture of Jesus as the one who's come together, not just,
not just Judah, but Samaria. And, and so that, that openness to
to a variety of meanings and significances to a story. Yeah,
yeah, challenging. I Yeah, it's one of the things I most love
about John's gospel. It's one thing having been having
teaching it for some years now, still feel slightly out of
grasp slightly. There's just always more.
Well, yeah, particularly, that's a lot of people's
experience, particularly with John's, particularly with
John's gospel. Yes, I've lately been reading Augustine sermons
on John and he, he's also very strong on the Samaritan now
represents the foreigner. So, so this is in effect the marriage
of Christ and, and the church drawn from all nations. That's
he doesn't particularly make much of the bridegroom imagery
on the surface, but that's clearly in the background for
the way he's interpreting this. You know, I thought this
occurring to me as we're talking about this. So we're talking
about potentially some uncertainties around
interpretation and characterisation. Is it this? Is it
that? Or is it explicitly ambiguous? And I mean, just on
practic, some practicalities of ministry, someone preparing a
Bible study on this, or even just having a quiet time on it,
or a sermon or something, is often needing to get something
or they feel they need to get something definite in a very
limited number of hours. But with characters, it can often
feel like, yet, to what extent is the woman? It might be that
she has been abused by others. But yet she does say everything
I've ever done. And there is a strange, strange tradition that
says no, there is an element in which she's not entirely
exemplary, although she then becomes an exemplary witness. So
there are all these ambiguities around. How does someone who is
not writing a PhD on this passage, but is they've got a
small number of hours in which to produce some word ministry
in which they can't really stand there and go, well, on the one
hand and on the other hand, but I don't really know. That's a
massive question. But how are we going to go about that kind of
thing? Yeah, so I think in in John's Gospel, a close reading
without a PhD still helps you work out, I think, the
significance of the vast majority of characters in the
way that there is clearly some intentional pairing between
Nicodemus and the Samaritan woman, the blind man in John
nine being a really clear model witness under fire testifying to
what Jesus has done for him. So not not every character is so
laden with ambiguity that it's just very hard to make a
judgment about it. Yeah. Some of the characters I think are and
that's, that's really the point. It's, it's not a shortcoming
of us and our prep that we haven't been able to clearly
identify somebody. So the one of the one of the criticisms that
sometimes made about John's Gospel is, is that it's very
black and white. There's light and the darkness. There's
there's, there's good and there's evil. There's life and
there's death. And John does God's your father or the devil's
your father. Exactly, exactly. It all seems very black and
white. And actually what a lot of this characterization does
is, is soften that and acknowledge that actually,
particular people, particular points in their life are going
to be somewhere on that spectrum are going to be moving a little
more towards the light or, or a little bit more towards the
darkness. And that, that's okay. I think there's, and that's
just true to life. So the example would be Nicodemus who,
at least in in John three, is clearly in his response to Jesus
he, he's not able to grasp the things that a teacher of Israel
ought to be able to grasp. And, and something of, there's
something of the night about him in the sense that he is, he's
left in the dark. But come John chapter seven, Nicodemus is
there and he's now the voice pushing back a little bit on the
other Jewish leaders and their plans for Jesus and
understanding of him. Come chapter 19, he's there and he's
maybe doing more than he knows, but, but, but providing some
sort of signal of Jesus's worth and kingship in the things that
he takes to the tomb. So there's some sense of people make
progress. One encounter doesn't tell you everything about
somebody. There's just quite a lot about life and ministry to
learn from, from that.
Which is maybe a good metaphor for approaching John in general
is at each encounter with John, just like all of scripture, it's,
it's, you're going to get some things, but not everything from
it. And so, so for the person trying to prepare, it's okay if
you're not getting every nuance or every bit of it actually take
what you can and, and go with it. And God is speaking through
that.
Yeah, that's really helpful. Surely we would, we would, we
would, the point to worry about ourselves is if we think we've
kind of got John's nuances all sorted out. Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, you mentioned Nicodemus there, actually, as you were
speaking, I remembered reading a book, Eurocircle, which I found
massively helpful. I think it's called interpreting gospel
narratives. And he, the author did a really nice thing with
Nicodemus. It's by, by a man with a splendid or nearly
splendid name of Timothy Wearder, W-I-A-R-D-A, which is,
he overshoots a great name by two letters. You can't, you
can't have everything. But I, again, if people want to, anybody
watching wants to pick that up. It wasn't terribly expensive.
And I found that massively helpful in just doing some very,
very careful reading of, of, particularly of
characterization.
David, you mentioned the blind man very briefly. I'd love to
hear you talk a bit more about characterization of him.
Yeah, we're into chapter nine here. We're into chapter nine.
I, maybe we should do, play this game later on of, who's your
favourite character in John's gospel? The blind man hands
down is my favourite character in John's gospel, you know,
second to Jesus. So, again, one of the questions that still
revolves around, I remember reading somebody on the
significance of anonymity in John's gospel. If you've got
help for me now or later, please do help me out. And I
think that the idea that the, the positive, the most positive
characters in John's gospel are anonymous rather than named,
is a theory that's got some legs. You think about the
beloved disciple. You think about the blind man, you think
about the Samaritan woman. Whereas you think some of the
named characters are more negative in their
characterization. So Nicodemus, arguably in contrast to the
Samaritan woman, kind of, you know, the character of the
Samaritan woman, Caiaphas and others, doesn't work entirely.
You've got, you've got a Mary and a Lazarus and a Martha and
a Peter. But the, but the significance of the blind man,
though he's not named, he's given this wonderful long
section. In some ways, he stands for all of us, someone who
is brought to sight. And I mean, certainly just then you're,
kind of, you thought about coming back to John each time
and discovering a little bit more sight and, and, and God
kindly illuminating us a little more. There's just, there's a
lovely way in which that happens through that narrative,
precisely through the trouble he gets in. So he has been
healed by Jesus. He's, he's kind of asked to, to explain
this, to defend it. And, and through that whole process, he
grows in confidence. He grows in, in clarity about who Jesus
is. And, and in lots of ways, he becomes a model for, for every
believer to enjoy the kind of experience that Jesus prepares
his followers for in the upper room. So, you know, there in the
upper room, Jesus talks about this time when he's going to be
absent, he's going to provide the Spirit, he's going to enable
his people to witness and testify to a world that is going
to hate them. And I mean, this is, this is some, some stuff
that Peter Lightheart has written really well on, little
book called Deep Exegesis. He asks what, why do you get such a
long scene there in John nine? Why, why does the blind man have
such time? And why does Jesus disappear for so long? He's
absent from the narrative for an extraordinarily long period of
time. And it's, it's precisely so that you get this little
anticipation of the church's own experience of coming under
fire being called upon to give testimony to Jesus, and
experiencing something of the irrationality of those who are
refusing to listen to testimony. He says it, his parents say it,
really obvious this guy has been healed by Jesus. And, and so,
so there's something just, just very powerful and wonderful in
the way that, that he, he presents the calling of the
church. Tremendous, tremendous. I got, I got so many questions
over reading characters, and particularly in John. We're
often building, when we're getting to grips with what a
text might be telling us and showing us about a particular
character, we're piecing a composite picture together out
of small details in the text, out of a big picture of the
flow of the narrative. And at the same time, because these
are people, we are always reading things in. So Siddy, I
mean, he quite rightly said with chapter four, this is, there's
a whole tradition of just reading in, she's had five men,
and so I just, without even thinking about it, I sort of
reach into my cultural view of the world and go, well, she
must be this kind of person or that. How do we, what do we
have to do more and more to be better readers of how characters
are presented to us in scripture? What are the things
we need to do? What are the things we need to be aware of?
That's such a good question. And in some ways, Tim, I'd love
to hear what you think about it. Let me, let me tell one
thing in and then let's hear from you guys. John, I think, is
particularly rich in symbolism. And that does give you a steer
on how to read. So I would feel less confident about our
reading of the Samaritan woman if there hadn't been six water
jars in John 2. So in John 2, the wedding at Cana, you've got
Jesus who's going to turn water into wine and six ceremonial
water jars are filled up and then turned to wine. The fact
that there are six, again, in John's gospel, you get so many
sevens as a pattern of completeness and you get a repeated
pattern of sixes as signifying something that comes short of
that, that stops short of perfection and completion. So I
think as Jesus teaches about the perfect cleansing that he
brings, to have six stone water jars that bring an incomplete
and inadequate sort of cleansing is a striking thing. To then
meet a woman who's had five husbands and the man that she's
now with is not her husband, which gets you to six. And then
you have a betrothal scene and she meets Jesus and he is the
Messiah and the bridegroom. Makes you think we've seen again
something of a very Jewish heritage, the ceremonial waters
that don't cleanse, something of her background and Jesus
bringing the fulfillment and completion of that. So John, in
a lot of those details is I think communicating a lot to us
and teaching us, schooling us in paying attention to those
details. There are lots of examples I could give you where
I'm still not quite sure what to do with this detail or that
detail, but certain patterns emerge. That wouldn't be true
for every narrative that you're reading. What would be, Tim,
what in your mind would be just some broader guidelines to
grow in this habit, this scale? I'm with you really. We have
to become better and better listeners to the text that is
in front of us. And it's hard to come up with just a blueprint
for that because John writes differently from others. So it's
learning to tune our ear to how has he written? How did the
Holy Spirit cause him to write as the writer that he was? How
has he put down these patterns of symbolism? Now, particularly
that will be a challenge for us when there's a way of writing
that doesn't come naturally to us because of our cultural
background or mindset. And that is where knowing how texts have
been interpreted by people from different cultures in the past
and different cultures around the world now is enormously
helpful. I can remember, this is Luke, but a while ago, sitting
with a group of Brits and some people from Africa reading from
Luke 1, Elizabeth and Zechariah. And the Brits immediately
assumed that the passage was there to focus on Zechariah and
didn't really pick up about what Elizabeth says about shame
around disgrace taken away. Because of course, on the whole,
contemporary Brits are not linking childlessness with
shame. They'd link unwanted childlessness with grief and
sadness, but not with public shame. But the Africans around
the table, when asked what's this about, were just zooming in
on Elizabeth because childlessness in their culture
still has an element of public shame around it. So there's an
example where just blinded by cultural lenses, so what can we
do? Well, I think more as far as we are able. Reading
commentaries which gives some access to the history of the
interpretation of passages, but also, and more as we know, more
and more of these are being published now, which give
insight into how people from different cultures read this.
Because, okay, they will have their own blind spots, but
they'll be different from ours and they will see things that
we don't. That's why I think why your Samaritan woman example
is such a brilliant one. Yeah, and I mean, I think kind of
picking up on that some of what I've found really helpful is
there have been a few commentaries by some female
scholars that have opened some stuff up for me, mainly around
the Samaritan woman, but other things throughout John. And so
I think that's the same, different gender, different
culture, different, if we can be hearing each other's
voices on this. Do you want to say a bit more about that, about
how female eyes just might approach chapter four
differently? Yeah, I think even just if you're reading what
Calvin has to say about it, it frankly, it hurts actually to
think, well, here's a female character interacting with Jesus
and as a woman myself, you think that's, is that really, I'm
not sure that's what Jesus is getting at. And so pushing into
it a bit and seeing actually what are the other details
there. Now, I should obviously have my own hermeneutics of
suspicion against my own reading and my own feelings, but
I think, yeah, I think it just opens up those questions of is
this actually where the text is going and what it's actually
leading into? Is this a result of misogynistic readings or
cultural assumptions or and I think that's if we're approaching
the text thinking, am I reading something into this? Am I
missing something? I think that's a really helpful guard to
importing your own ideas. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, lots of these
stories are just designed to subvert what would be very
common expectations of how this story is going to go. Yeah. And
so being alert to that and allowing myself to be surprised
and not to insist I know how this story goes. So, you know,
that's you would just expect Nicodemus to be to be the to
give it, it'd be very easy to give him the benefit of the
doubt because he's the kind of knowledgeable professional
theologian in that sort of setting. And, and actually what
what these narratives are very often doing are overturning
those sorts of expectations. I mean, the Luke birth narrative
is a really nice example of that too, where you've got
another real insider, you've got Zechariah there in the temple,
his response is unbelief and he struck dumb, compare that to
Mary, who in lots of ways is much less the likely character to
to respond in that way. In not. Yeah, not not having the
advantages that the Zechariah does. And yet there is the
kind of shining and immediate response of faith. It's
beautiful. This is great stuff. I mean, as you were talking, I
mean, I've been interested in characters for a while for sort
of from my side of things. As I've been as you've been
talking, I've been thinking it might it be that one of the
reasons why the Lord has given us so many of these narratives
with characters in his word to us, it's, you know, it's a
shortage book and it is his word for all time for all peoples.
There will be many, many different kinds of character for
many, many different kinds of people to see aspects of
themselves as a mirror held up to them. And so I'm just being
the person I am. I will read some characters better than
others and other people will read other characters better
than I do, which I think, you know, if I'm a preacher or a
pastor that I seem to be I've got to be listening to how as
far as possible to how a lot of different people who are
believers, how they interact with those characters. Sometimes
I may think somebody's missed something in the text, but other
times I'll hear someone who's just different from me saying,
well, I see this and I would never have thought of it. But
there it is. And you look again and go, actually, that really
is there. And so what just press out a bit further. Is the
kind of sense then that something for everybody God has
given such a kind of gallery of characters that there's
somebody for everybody to relate to or should I am I being
pushed to relate to characters who I wouldn't naturally be
drawn to just. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Because it seems
to be the the relating to characters thing is just
happening all the time subconsciously, even if someone
kids themselves, they're so scientifically analytically
minded that that's not happening. If they are a human
being, they are relating to characters. So you might as well
acknowledge that you are getting out there on the table.
And if you're not relating at all, you check your pulse.
There might be a problem. And some of that relating, then
what do you do then do? Then you test it by the text. This is
my gut reaction in relation to this character, as in, oh, my
goodness, that's me. Or, oh, I'm really concerned now. I didn't
think I was like that. But maybe this is holding up a
mirror and I kind of am. Or this isn't me at all. I don't do
that kind of thing. What is this? Or that's obviously her
over there revealing how annoying she is or whatever it is.
Get all that out there on the table and then just in light of
that, just begin now to ask yourself, is this text revealing
things that are true about me that I didn't think were true,
but maybe they are? Or this is showing me something about
myself, but I'm more like a woman in chapter four than I am
like Nicodemus in chapter three. Yes, the characters are
presented here. But my view of myself is that I'm a Nicodemus
in the world, not apparently a relevant Samaritan woman in the
world. So yeah, there'll be a holding up a mirror. I now see
things about myself, but there will be a pushing. You don't see
yourself this way, do you? But actually, the Lord's truth
about you is bigger than you would acknowledge. I'm kind of
rambling, but that kind of very, I mean, what sense do you make
of that, Sydney? Yeah, I think that is definitely one way
characterization is helpful. And I think even pushing beyond
that, it's not even just about understanding ourselves
through it either. I think one of the things the different
characters in John's gospel can help with is actually thinking
about all the sorts of people you're going to encounter in
ministry or in life and actually their different responses
to you, to you talking about Jesus with them is, I think
that is a really helpful thing. And John is what you were
talking about, the sort of ambiguity and development and
like with Nicodemus moving. It's not just black and white. It's
not just you're either a believer or a non-believer, not
either just in the light or in the darkness. Some people are
moving towards the light. Some people move towards the light or
seem to and then move back to the darkness. And I think
that's another way of characterization helps us
understand what's happening in the world is actually, ah, okay,
I've seen that response in my parish or in my small group.
Okay, I kind of have a better understanding of
this is how some people are going to respond. Yeah, thank
you. That's hugely helpful what this reveals about others.
Well, now look, we could spend more time on characterization.
We said we're going to shift gear. So shorter time now,
John's gospel in relation to the ladders.
Somebody kick us off. Well, let's draw, we could draw one line
straight towards that theme from what we've been talking
about so far, which would be just the potential for you to
see those sorts of individual responses and reactions in the
people that you minister to as well the opportunity of all of
God's people to play their part in themselves becoming
characters, becoming people worthy of imitation and study.
So in three, John, that theme comes through really quite
clearly where you've got the language of imitation. John
writes there, imitate the good, but either side of that
instruction that could be quite abstract, the good in some
abstract way, he's actually talking about either being a
Demetrius or being a diatrophies, either being somebody
who is a model believer in the way that they extend
hospitality and support faithful believers or somebody who
loves to be first like a diatrophies. And so one of the
lovely things about the letters is you see that same
dynamic continuing on of different responses being
worked out to the gospel and the cast of characters
extending to John himself in his ministry to a Demetrius,
to a diatrophies. Yeah, and so I mean this is something we
talk about in class is reading John's gospel alongside the
letters and actually thinking about how do you do that and
how do those go together and doing some practice and
actually reading them together. And I think one of the
things you see is at the end of John you get the statement of
those who haven't seen, blessed are those who haven't seen and
believe and the letters move into that territory of working
with groups of Christians who have come to believe but
weren't there in the upper room with Jesus. So one of the
exercises we did in class was have the upper room discourse
from John 13 to 17 read alongside one John and actually
thinking about well how do these inform each other? How do
you think about them? And there was one article we went
through by a guy called John Yarad. John Yarad? I think you
sent it to me. Okay, I forgot a lot of things. We'll look
back and find it but what he does is he picks up on these
themes that are in the upper room discourse in particular
but are also in one John and just sort of put them alongside
each other and say well how do you, how do these help
sharpen? I think he has this imagery of reading the two
alongside each other is like looking through a diamond as
things become clearer they enhance each other and so that's
what we tried to do is how do these enhance each other? And
two particular themes that really stuck out are if you
break the upper room discourse sort of in half it's like love
of God and then the hatred of the world is two big themes.
Well those come out all across one John is the world hates you
or the hatred of the world or hating brothers and sisters and
that sort of theme and actually part of having the upper
room discourse and having that right next to one John is well
Jesus said that was going to happen so for those of you now
experiencing this hatred of the world that's not, that
shouldn't be a surprise. Jesus said that to his disciples and
said this was coming. Let's think back to that and
think through what are we promised to help us through
that? Well we have the Holy Spirit
with us as we continue to testify to a world that hates
Jesus and so I think two and three John move into this even
more about the kind of practical outworkings of that but one John
is picking up on that statement from the upper room discourse in
the same way it's picking up on the command to love a new
command I give you love one another and what we did in class
is think well what you get statements in one John about
what that looks like because it's this is how we know love.
Yeah. Jesus died for us if you think back to the upper room
discourse in John 13 in particular one of the examples
of love is the foot washing scene and that is this example
of Jesus loving people who are about to betray him and washing
their feet with Judas and Peter with his upcoming denial as
well and so when you have these commands in one John of loving
one another and loving each other it is a it's a command to
serve in the way that Jesus served in humble service of each
other so those were a few examples we worked through in
class and you've done a bit on two and three John and sort of
how that takes forward a lot of what happens in John's gospel
too. Just before it'd be great to get just could I just ask
you a bit more just reflecting on what's going on there that's
that's really interesting so have I got this right effectively
what's going on there is you've got I mean obviously one John
it's not a very long letter so there's not a lot John doesn't
take a lot of time to spell out what he might mean by
particular things you've got these commands love one another
now someone could picking that up could preach or teach that
and just fill in the content of what it means to love each
other in all sorts of ways that just kind of occur to them in
the moment the be in their bonnet or the thing that they
think their home group needs to really hear that or something
and what you're doing there is saying well now read this in
light of John's gospel and the kind of love one another now
comes with a certain content to it. I mean would you would you go
as far as saying read those commands in the letter in light
of chapter 13 to 17 and that now that now is the core content
of what he means in the letter or is it is it an option for
sharpening I mean how how tightly do you want to read them
together? Yeah I think I think it does set the context for it
in that if you're going back to the upper room discourse that
is where the command to love is given and and and that is where
the new command comes from and so I do think you need that
context and that sharpening now I think it can be sharpened
and it can be applied and yeah obviously it's going to look
different in different contexts of what that on the ground
means but setting it within the big framework of service down
to oneself that following Jesus's example that's what you
see really sharply in John 13 to 17. Great thank you I I
budded in you were going on to two and three John. No no I
think you just yeah you see exactly those those same things
where in in one John in two John in particular you get that
repeated love one another command to walk in love that's
that's what the father has commanded in two John and that's
that is a lovely way that the Christian life gets distilled
down really beautifully and really simply so I think it's
one of the one of the gifts of something like two John is to
say to God's people you might you might have been trained to
think that God expects you to do a hundred things a day and
that that's a measure of success today and you'll get
to the end of your day thinking I've not I've not managed that
many things or I'm at a stage in life where actually I can I
can just about manage to feed my baby and and get the washing
done or my body is now in a state which means I can hardly
do anything in a day for for two John to take the Christian
life and boil it down to love one another and and to walk in
love that that three four mile an hour pace of doing one thing
that the Lord has commanded us to do there's something really
beautiful about the way that that gets distilled down but as
as Cindy's been saying the John's gospel has to be the way
that we interpret what it and what that means to so that as
you as you were saying Tim we don't fill that command to love
one another with whatever we think that might mean when John
says that he's relying on everything that's come before
in the gospel it this love is a self-sacrificial costly love
till the end sort of love and so so you need the gospel to
understand two John and three John two John and three John
help you see some of the benefits of of boiling it right
down to that in the end love one another but they also they do
help you move into that really contested stage of church life
when people are teaching falsely and so if in the upper
room it might feel as if the church is the community of love
and the world is this place of hatred actually two and three
John and one John all take you into this territory where no
there are those who are going to be teaching falsely within
the church and that you're going to be hatred and opposition
and division and just ambiguity who are the good guys here who
are the bad guys here do you believe you know diatrophies is
speaking against Gaius in three John Gaius is speaking about
diatrophies who's in the right who's in the wrong who can you
trust those those those letters help you realize
all of that great theology of John's gospel comes to land in
some of that dust some of that mess within the church as well
as beyond it and that's that's something that I I would
imagine resonates pretty well for a lot of people in ministry
that's that's tremendous yeah I like those thoughts just as
you're talking all sorts of thoughts are sparking I I mean
in one John you know they they went out from us but they were
not of us so they seem to be of us and they're going out
sure that they weren't well you're straight into that's
that's Judas isn't it and the is this right in one John the
hatred of the brothers and sisters is particularly it's
those who will abandon them and move into error
which is precisely what Judas does and it's those who will
know who will abide in the faith and abide with one another
together in that and then you're straight into the unity
of the church themes which you get towards the end of the
upper room so that's that sounds tremendously fertile
territory which we don't have time to explore further now.
Did I give you a chance you may feel you've kind of said all
you want to say which is fine but on either of the topics
we've talked about characterization or link with
the letters any final thoughts that occur to you that just
maybe just drop a final bomb before we before we finish or a
final thought that would take something further.
One of as you're trying to ask what is John doing by
presenting you with this great cast of characters which but
we've spoken a lot about it but maybe one extra thing would be
to to call you to decision one of one of the things that John
won't do is is let you hide you do need yourself to come to a
decision you say in particular with the way that the crowd in
John as a sort of character is always fractured what John does
is with the crowd he'll often tell you well within the crowd
some people are saying this and some people saying that and
some people saying that he'll very often end a section like
that with a question where somebody's just left a question
hanging who is this and what sort of person can do this and
the question just hangs and so one of the things to pay
attention to in all of that is how I'm being invited to make
my own decision I'm to identify with these different responses
to Jesus in different ways but also need to come to my own
decision and John is calling me to that.
Great thank you.
Oh I should have gone first.
You can have that one too if you want that's fine.
Ditto.
Yeah I think I think just I love John I've had such fun
teaching John really really digging in and I think just I
think almost more just repeating a point that I've already said
of just keep digging in and that's going to involve the call
to decision but I think it's going to help sharpen and
enrich your own experience of God's words and who God is and
I think how to share Jesus with others too I think as you're
thinking about different responses and things like that
is actually just thinking about how Jesus met you in your
individual circumstance and helping others have that
encounter as well.
Wonderful so much more about John we could say but this has
been enjoyable thank you great to have you with us for this
episode of Deep Roots we hope there's been good and fruitful
things in it for you in your own reading of John's gospel and
ministry from John to others.
There'll be a blog coming up in a week or two's time on the
Oak Hill website that'll just take one or two of these things
around John's gospel a bit further. We've also been planning
the next few episodes I'm not going to let the cat entirely
out of the bag but we've got some very interesting things
coming up around the shape of patterns in church services
there's a church nearby here which has done something really
interesting we're going to be thinking around that plus also
more great goodies from the Oak Hill faculty and their
tremendous biblical and theological learning so see you
soon.