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Hi everyone, welcome to the Oak Hill podcast, conversations about theology and ministry.

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Welcome, we are really glad you're here with us.

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Uh, I look forward to every one of the Oak Hill podcasts, but I've been especially looking

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forward to this one because I'm joined by my friend and former colleague, Chris Ansberry,

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who is here in the country teaching a summer intensive for us this week on wisdom

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literature, which I know is a special interest of yours.

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Uh, Chris, because probably not everyone watching will know you.

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Could you explain the former colleague bit and your relationship to Oak Hill and where

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you are now?

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Yeah, Eric, thanks for having me.

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It's a delight to chat with you.

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Um, I am a former colleague in so far as I taught here for eight years.

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So in God's kindness and Providence, um, Carolyn, my wife, um, two children at that

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point, we came over to Oak Hill to serve as a lecturer in 2013.

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Um, and that continued until 2020, 2021, after which I accepted a position at a place

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called Grove city college in Western Pennsylvania in the States and have since moved there.

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But we had eight glorious and lovely years here with colleagues like you, Eric and others,

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as well as some fine students.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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You were one of the colleagues that I very much didn't want to go, but given the nature

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of the opportunity, I was very happy for you and it was the right fit for you.

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I think at that time it was just to be able to have the opportunity to live a bit closer

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to family and the timing and kids' lives and things like that.

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It just seemed to make sense.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Now you're teaching wisdom literature for us.

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I am.

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Which is an area of area of expertise for you.

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You've been spending a lot of time on that.

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Could you tell us how you got interested in wisdom literature, your, your relationship

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to that part of the Bible?

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Yeah, it's a great question.

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I kind of fell into it in that, um, I became a Christian rather later in life.

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So after my first year of university became a Christian, um, took some time off, didn't

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go back to school for a few years, for about a year.

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Um, when I did, I fell into sort of languages and classics and that sort of works for me.

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It, um, scratched all of my itches.

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I was good at it and that was helpful.

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Um, after, um, university, I decided to go into graduate school with some

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encouragement from some professors.

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So I find myself at Wheaton doing an MA in exegesis.

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And by that time, having become a fairly new Christian, having sort of discerned

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aspects of the church, I find it quite striking that I didn't hear the Old Testament

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preached, um, on a regular basis.

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So that was sort of a red flag that sort of emerged by that point as I was moving

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into grad school and, um, I had a professor in grad school, um, C.

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Hassell Bullock, who was teaching a seminar, a PhD seminar on wisdom literature.

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It interested me.

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Um, I twisted his arm and he allowed me to take that PhD seminar.

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And it was during that time that I began to recognize not only is the Old

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Testament marginalized in some churches, but no one knows what to do with these

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so-called wisdom books, especially if you operate strictly speaking under a kind

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of linear redemptive historical model of biblical theology.

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And I thought, huh, I can kind of kill two birds perhaps with one stone and

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focusing on an aspect of the Old Testament that's problematic that might

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better serve the church.

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So that's how I got into it.

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That's wonderful.

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I've talked with more than one Old Testament scholar who was in a sort of

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general seminary degree and many different routes they could take, but they

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picked the Old Testament because there was a need there.

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Um, so the Old Testament, the wisdom literature doesn't quite seem to fit.

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Yeah, it doesn't.

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Tell us about that.

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Well, I think Will Kynes has done a good job of this and sort of identifying how

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over the last 150-ish sort of years, there's been this common conception that

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not only do the wisdom books not play by the rules of certain ways of going

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about biblical theology, um, but these books seem to fraternize with the wrong

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crowd, they're more comparable, the sort of ancient Near Eastern texts out there.

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They're unusual in the canon of scripture, nothing really like the book of

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Proverbs or Job or Ecclesiastes or the song, if you want to include that into the

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mix, um, so they become something of a problem child within the canon of

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scripture, raising the big question in terms of that, how do we, I think for me,

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especially, how do we read these books as Christian scripture?

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How are they Christian scripture for the church?

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They can feel like the fifth wheel on the car or something like that.

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Yeah, it seems to me if you're reading the Bible, you're

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reading the Bible, it's not as obvious.

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It's not as obvious to me, if you read Genesis to Malachi, you get a

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coherent story that's echoing across each other.

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It's not as obvious how Proverbs, Job, Ecclesiastes fit into that.

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That's right.

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My experience was doing nothing with wisdom literature, getting through all

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my schooling, getting a job, right, to teach it every year.

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And I knew literally nothing about it.

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So it was a crash course for me, but that's how the teaching, uh, uh, schedule worked out.

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So what would be lacking from our Bibles?

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If Job and Ecclesiastes were not there, if Genesis was not there, Deuteronomy,

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the text, the Old Testament would be incoherent.

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What, what is crucial that we need to understand about living before God and

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living with each other that we find improv, just say, just in Proverbs to

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begin with, that we don't see anywhere else?

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Great question.

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Um, I want to be very careful that I don't sort of go to the point where I say,

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we wouldn't have X, Y, or Zed without Proverbs, Job or Ecclesiastes.

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I do think in large part, these books, along with the song are reinforcing voices

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and witnesses that we find elsewhere in the Canon, but because they're framed

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and formed in a different way, they help us to understand some of these motifs

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we find in what elsewhere in the Canon differently.

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And I find that quite helpful.

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So wisdom is a concept that pervades the Canon of scripture, for example.

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But I think Proverbs, Job, Ecclesiastes help us to understand wisdom in

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different ways, through different angles, you know, almost through different facets.

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An example of that being how does one acquire wisdom?

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I think Proverbs, Job and Ecclesiastes might answer that question in

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complimentary ways, but in different ways in the same way, what is the fear of the Lord?

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I think Proverbs unpacks what that means and what that looks like in a particular way.

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I think Job unpacks that in a complimentary yet distinctive way.

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And the same with Ecclesiastes.

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So I think if all you had was Deuteronomy, you'd have a particular understanding of

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what the fear of the Lord is that would be good and right, but it would lack a

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sort of thickness and a depth that I think something like Proverbs and Job

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and Ecclesiastes help us out with.

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It fascinates me.

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Tell me if you agree with this or not.

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It fascinates me how comfortable wisdom literature is with diversity and tension.

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Not everything has to be exactly the same.

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Ecclesiastes, there are a couple of passages as well where the author says,

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here's my theology, here's my lived experience.

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It doesn't seem to fit very well with it.

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I'm not going to deny either.

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I'm not going to let my lived experience destroy my faith.

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I'm not going to let my faith, I'm not going to put blinkers on so I can't see

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what's happening and it's just comfortable with it.

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That seems like a very wise theological method.

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Tell me, could you tell me one example outside of Proverbs, Job, Ecclesiastes,

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where you see wisdom present and biblically, what does wisdom mean?

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I mean, I suppose we all have some definition what that means as English

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speakers, but what does wisdom mean in the Old Testament?

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Wisdom broadly conceived in the Old Testament, I would say, is a skilled practice.

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So it's up and here I'll riff off aspects of Michael Fox.

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I think it is cognitive.

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It is emotional.

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It involves right loves, right desires.

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It is aesthetic.

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It involves a recognition of what is good and fitting and beautiful.

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And as you bring all of those together and sort of the concrete in and out

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circumstances that we find ourselves in everyday life, it has to do with not

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only an embodied form of life, how I go about living my life, but it also involves.

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How do I best read people?

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How do I best read situations?

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What's the right word at the right time in the light of my reading of

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this person in this situation?

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So it almost encompasses all aspects of the Christian life and pastoral ministry

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in terms of how do I frame and understand the ins and outs of life and my various

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interactions within the world?

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Right.

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Tell me if you agree with this.

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It seems to me part of what Proverbs is saying is obeying God's rules is not enough.

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It's necessary.

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If you, if you ignore and flaunt those rules, it's going to be a train wreck,

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but that is not enough to live blessedly and successfully in God's world.

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You need a kind of facility where you know the right thing to say or not say

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in a certain situation.

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Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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It fascinates me that God has put his world together in such a way.

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It's not just a matter of applying rule number 34 or whatever crucial as that is,

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you know, um, you, you, you mentioned the right things to say in certain situations.

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How much of, of Proverbs do you think is about good people skills?

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I think a lot of it is.

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And I think not only about people skills and some of those soft skills that it seeks to

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cultivate within a certain virtues that help us out in those situations.

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Um, and Stuart talks a lot about how Proverbs sort of train our moral reasoning in

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different ways, direct desires and things of that nature through its different forms

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and its, its pedagogical techniques.

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I was struck, I have to admit in my dissertation, I was sort of selective in sort

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of what I treated in the book of Proverbs, but now having done a commentary on the book,

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having to translate everything.

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I mean, it messes with your mind.

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I mean, certain sayings like what's the subject, what's the predicate?

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There's a gap here.

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This is asymmetrical.

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Like it just plays with your mind and rewires the way that you think.

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So that you begin to recognize sort of the messiness in human interactions, in

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human situations, and it kind of sharpens your perception to almost expect that

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that grayness in the, in the everyday of, I found that extremely surprising and

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helpful because I opened up my English by learning through Proverbs and it seems

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rather banal, basic and straightforward, but it's not.

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That's fascinating.

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Yeah.

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Translations by their nature are going to clarify and simplify and smooth off rough

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edges.

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So the text itself is helping train you to make judgment calls in difficult

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situations in the way that it's written.

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Yeah.

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And I think an example of that is sort of, you look across, for example, the

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words of the wise in Proverbs 22 17 to 24 34 and the two sections there.

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And it's quite striking to me that you, you move from chapters one to nine.

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You're the sort of passive silent recipient.

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That's the position you're called to assume receiving the parental advice,

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the discourses of wisdom, lady folly.

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Then you enter into chapters 10 to 22 16.

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And it's like, Oh, there's no more spoon feeding here.

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I got to kind of fend for myself and sort out, you know, I'm no longer being sort

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of held by the hand here and spoon fed in my baby chair.

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I got to kind of sort out this wisdom on my own.

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And then you return in 22 17 to the words of the wise and there's direct address

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there it's direct admonitions commands.

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There's moral motivations there.

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Does the carrot on the stick to get me to sort of embrace certain actions, but

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then I'm being thrown into all kinds of social situations.

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I'm a parent, you know, discipline your child.

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You won't die. And then it's like, hold on.

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I'm a military commander wage war with advice.

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What, you know, now I'm a drunkard, you know, now I'm responsible for making

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sure innocent people aren't carried off to execution.

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You're being thrown into these different social situations.

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It's like, Whoa, I have to kind of assume this position and think through as a

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citizen or a military commander or, or whatever it might be.

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How might I act?

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How might I live?

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What would I do?

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What's the best way to negotiate these sorts of scenarios?

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If I'm sitting at your home tomorrow for dinner, the home of a superior, should I

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grub out or should I put a knife to my throat?

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I mean, what should I do?

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You know, as I'm thinking about perhaps social advancement, whatever it might be.

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So I find that quite fascinating.

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Yeah.

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It's amazing how in the geniuses, I think the people who wrote the Old Testament

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were geniuses in the way it's put together that as, as you said, it goes to

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work on your mind in a certain way.

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It, it rips some wires up and rewires things.

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It goes to work on your heart in a certain way.

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You find yourself attracted to and loving certain things that you didn't before.

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And especially that teenage males, which is who the book is addressed to in a

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certain, in a certain sense, don't naturally love.

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I have this feeling of chaos when I read Proverbs 10 through 31, just saying

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after saying after saying, I read half a chapter and I'm lucky if I can remember

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any of it, is that intentional?

234
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Is that kind of training for the, you know, the really different situations

235
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you'll find yourself in?

236
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:56,280
Yeah, I think we kind of read the seemingly random nature of the

237
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collections within proverb, how they've been organized and collated in one of two

238
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ways, I think we can see the rhetorical significance of that as look, you're

239
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going to be thrown in all kinds of situations.

240
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Things are going to come at you across your day that you don't necessarily

241
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,960
anticipate or expect, and you're going to have to be nimble.

242
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,320
You're going to have to have the sort of moral reasoning and character that's

243
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able to negotiate those situations.

244
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I'm also quite convinced by the work of Bill Brown, who isn't necessarily as

245
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,080
concerned with sort of coherence and organization at sort of the micro level

246
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,640
between individual sayings or materials across the collections, but does sort of

247
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look at the book at sort of 10,000 feet at a more macro perspective and recognizes

248
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if Proverbs one to nine, which most agree is something of an introduction to the

249
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book as a whole, it sits in unified relationship with at least chapter 31.

250
00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:48,640
I would argue also chapter 30.

251
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There's something of a framework there that helps us to understand the middle

252
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:53,920
as we negotiate the middle.

253
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,800
And if Proverbs one, one to seven, the preamble really crystallizes.

254
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,360
This is really the rhyme and reason, the purpose of the book.

255
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,760
I think Proverbs one, one to seven is something of the core syllabus of the

256
00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:06,560
book of Proverbs.

257
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You have your learning outcomes there, you know, the address ease, you have your

258
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,800
prerequisite in chapter one, verse seven, the expectations are set.

259
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You're going to counter Proverbs and sayings, the words of the wise, these

260
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:19,360
riddles, it's not going to be easy.

261
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:25,520
I do think 10 to 29 is set up at the macro level, a sort of 10,000 foot view

262
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:30,480
along the lines of our educational curriculum, moving from some of not in a

263
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:35,520
simplistic way, the ABCs elementary wisdom, but I do find if 10 to 15 is

264
00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,840
dominated by antithetic sayings, you know, what's coming next.

265
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,720
There's this pedagogical experience of dependability.

266
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You're learning and sort of contrasts.

267
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:47,840
There are some gray areas there.

268
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,560
And then you move into 16 to 22 and it's a, oh, there's no, almost no antithetic

269
00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:53,120
sayings here.

270
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,840
Like I need to think differently in different ways.

271
00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:57,440
There's fresh themes being introduced.

272
00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,120
My worldview is being nuanced.

273
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:01,520
Then you're directly addressed in the words of the wise.

274
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:01,920
Okay.

275
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,920
I'm being commanded to assume different positions here, almost gaining some

276
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,800
vocational wisdom and then advanced wisdom.

277
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:14,720
In Proverbs 25 to 29, where, you know, 25 to 27, you have all these rich analogies

278
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,480
that you don't encounter elsewhere in the book.

279
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,800
And you're thinking, what's the image?

280
00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:19,920
What's the referent?

281
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,880
How do I put these things together to make sense out of it?

282
00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,880
You know, it's almost as if you're at a more advanced level of education.

283
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,520
There's more responsibilities that's required of you to interpret this stuff.

284
00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,840
And then even when you get to chapters 28 to 29, I've found that even though we

285
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:40,640
return at that point to antithetic sayings with Bill Brown, Christine Yoder, I mean,

286
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:45,840
it's a highly conflicted world at that point, you know, tyrannical rulers, the

287
00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:47,440
wicked ruling over people.

288
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,040
It's very realistic to the nature of our own world.

289
00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,480
And I found most of those antithetic sayings are asymmetrical.

290
00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:01,120
So explain more what you mean antithetical sayings and an asymmetry with

291
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:02,080
it, explain more for.

292
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:07,600
So you expect sort of things to be nicely paired together of righteous against the

293
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:12,320
wicked and then some sort of action with its opposite the results and then being

294
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:13,520
the opposite of the case.

295
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,840
I find across Proverbs 28 to 29, most of them, they don't line up and you're

296
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,360
forced to fill in gaps or to fill out sayings and extend them.

297
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,520
Again, it requires more of you.

298
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:25,120
You're you're at the advanced stage now.

299
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:26,880
You got to do some of this on your own.

300
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,000
It's kind of build your own proverb at that point with a little bit of help.

301
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:30,720
That's fascinating.

302
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,920
So perfectly symmetrical proverb would be, you know, a wise son rejoices his father,

303
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,160
a foolish son is a shape of his mother.

304
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:37,120
Yeah, something like that.

305
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:37,280
Yeah.

306
00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:38,960
And we're not getting that toward the end.

307
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:39,760
No, we're not.

308
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:46,240
So so in Proverbs 20 to 29, as it were, giving us the advanced M.A.

309
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:47,840
version to see if we can get through that.

310
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:54,560
Is that the book of Proverbs recognizing the limits of wisdom or a chaos and

311
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,560
confusion in the world or both?

312
00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,720
Or why?

313
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,640
Why? Can you think?

314
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:07,600
Can you reflect with me on why Proverbs is so sort of articulate about and

315
00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:13,280
insistent on our real ability to know the world, but also the limits of our

316
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,080
ability to grasp this confusing world we're in?

317
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,360
Is that is that the fault with wisdom and human knowing?

318
00:17:19,360 --> 00:17:21,040
Is it something about the world after the fall?

319
00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:21,600
Is it both?

320
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,200
Do you have any sense of that?

321
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:24,080
I think it's both.

322
00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,080
I think I've been really influenced.

323
00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:31,520
I mean, having studied wisdom books over a decade, I think finitude,

324
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:37,040
who we are as creatures is a prominent theme across these texts.

325
00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,680
I think even in the light of Kelly Capek's recent work,

326
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,720
it's a recognition that our finitude is a good gift.

327
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:43,520
It's a good thing.

328
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,720
Finitude, the limits of more of our finitude is not the product of the fall.

329
00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,640
You know, you can make a case with Drew Johnson and others that

330
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,480
Adam has to learn stuff in Genesis two.

331
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,320
Like, it's just the nature of our finitude as he depends on God to come to know,

332
00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:00,080
not good that I'm alone.

333
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,400
Well, these creatures aren't appropriate sort of, you know, helpers and mates for me.

334
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:09,040
So, yeah, I think that, of course, post Genesis three,

335
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,920
there is going to be some confusion and difficulties in understanding the nature

336
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,800
of the world, understanding people, understanding ourselves.

337
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:20,800
But even with that recognition, we are finite.

338
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:22,240
That is a good thing.

339
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:23,040
That is a gift.

340
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,120
We're ultimately dependent on God.

341
00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:26,320
We're dependent on others.

342
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,160
We are not self-sufficient beings.

343
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:33,040
And the wisdom books in different ways sort of leverage that and lean into that,

344
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,080
I think, in very helpful ways, whether it's in Proverbs,

345
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:41,200
which recognizes the wise can always grow in wisdom.

346
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:42,640
You can always grow in wisdom.

347
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:43,440
You never made it.

348
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:44,880
You've never graduated.

349
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,000
You're never going to sort of move on in the life of wisdom.

350
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,320
I find that quite striking where the wise can always grow in wisdom.

351
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,440
And if you have these character types in the book,

352
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,320
most of whom are sort of coreferential, the righteous and the wise,

353
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,040
the diligent, the generous, if they're all sort of the same sort of person

354
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,400
described with different characterizations, it strikes me that

355
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,680
while the righteous can never grow in righteousness.

356
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:11,760
Or never stop growing?

357
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,760
Well, according, you can say the wise can always grow in wisdom.

358
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:16,160
OK.

359
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,440
But it strikes me that the righteous, at least explicitly within Proverbs,

360
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:21,120
it seems, can never grow in righteousness.

361
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:23,120
It seems just simply to be a state.

362
00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:23,920
OK, interesting.

363
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:24,640
That is yours.

364
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:25,360
Interesting.

365
00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:27,920
But the righteous, according to Proverbs 9, 7, right,

366
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,920
it's sort of the hinge there between the two invitations of lady wisdom and woman folly.

367
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,080
The righteous can grow in understanding.

368
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,480
So you can always grow.

369
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:37,520
You've never made it.

370
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:38,480
You've never arrived.

371
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,480
And I think that captures something of the nature of who we are as creatures and our affinity.

372
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,320
There's a wonderful subversion of any pretension of mastery.

373
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,320
Which is something Christians can fall prey to.

374
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:51,520
Absolutely.

375
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,800
But at the same time, it's very much not skepticism or relativism or something.

376
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:55,440
Not at all.

377
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,440
Like we're assured in Proverbs, your life will go really well with the help of this book.

378
00:19:59,440 --> 00:19:59,920
Yeah.

379
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:08,000
And yet we're brought, you know, resolutely home to our own limitations with which we engage the world.

380
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,600
Maybe one more question about Proverbs.

381
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,680
I keep picking your brain about this for a long time.

382
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,640
But before we move on briefly to some other books,

383
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,800
it's very striking to me in Proverbs how it seems to me like every second or third

384
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:26,160
Proverb is about speech and especially about limiting speech and just saying less than you

385
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:26,880
might want to.

386
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:32,160
It seems to me that Proverbs will make huge promises for achieving wisdom.

387
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,360
But if you want to be wise, it feels to me like you're about halfway there.

388
00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:38,720
If you can just be willing to admit you're wrong and talk less.

389
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:40,160
No, I think you're right.

390
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:46,160
That's very striking to me and seems very relevant to the church today in terms of

391
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,600
sins of the tongue and the way we talk about each other, especially the way we talk about

392
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:50,400
each other online.

393
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,840
Are there other aspects of Proverbs that you find very insightful that have really sort of

394
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,360
knocked you on the side of the head and made you look at everything differently?

395
00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:03,040
Yeah, I think Proverbs knows and recognizes how we tick.

396
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:04,880
It has a lot to say about desire.

397
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,920
It puts carrots on sticks as sort of a helpful technique.

398
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,320
I think that says something about who we are.

399
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:12,320
We love things.

400
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,160
We're fundamentally desiring beings.

401
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,160
And if that's the case, the book is trying to orient our desires to those things that

402
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:19,280
are good and beautiful.

403
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,560
I always, you know, I love I love Agar's discourse in Chapter 30.

404
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:28,640
I mean, I think he just dishes out a healthy portion of humble pie.

405
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:33,520
And I just I find that refreshing and helpful.

406
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,920
And it just reorients me to you're never going to know it all.

407
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:39,200
It's not about what you know.

408
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,760
It's about whom you know, relationship with God.

409
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,800
That enables you to see that you are a creature.

410
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,320
You know, he feigns I'm an animal.

411
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:47,680
I'm a brute and not a man.

412
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,440
And I don't have wisdom and understanding.

413
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:50,000
Right.

414
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,440
But he really does.

415
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:56,480
And he's just trying to get us to confess that we really don't know and that we ought

416
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:57,200
to be humble.

417
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,200
And that really, I think Mike Ovi told me that's really the meta skill of the wise

418
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:02,400
person, humility.

419
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,160
And Agar reminds me of that.

420
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,680
He claims to be an animal, but he's really genuinely wise.

421
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,280
So long as we acknowledge who we are, what we don't know, what we do know.

422
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:12,080
Whom we know.

423
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:17,840
And that as he goes on in Chapter 30, it's striking how he'll talk about animals who

424
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,400
know that they're animals and they're they're wise.

425
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:25,680
But then he'll talk about those that don't know that they're acting like an animal who

426
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,960
are just proud and they ought to realize who they are.

427
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,840
And so that sort of discourse on humility there, which is also captured in Job just

428
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,120
fessing up to your limits.

429
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:37,680
Ecclesiastes rubs your face in that.

430
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,920
And so I find that really, really helpful.

431
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:40,400
Wow.

432
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,080
I read somewhere, I don't remember where I read somewhere that the first lesson in the

433
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:45,680
book of Job is how little we know.

434
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,040
And as the characters talk, it's not the only lesson, but it's the first one.

435
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:54,000
As the characters talk to each other and they're certain that they know things, all of them

436
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:54,800
are wrong.

437
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:59,760
But they don't know that they're wrong and they don't really have any other way of figuring

438
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:00,240
that out.

439
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:01,360
But we as the reader know.

440
00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:03,280
So it causes self-reflection.

441
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:03,760
No, sure.

442
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:09,200
Could I ask you, I'm genuinely, I have some thoughts about this, but I'd like to hear

443
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:10,640
what you say.

444
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:16,720
I've read a number of scholars say that Proverbs represents, maybe they don't describe it this

445
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,040
way, but there's a level of naiveté to Proverbs.

446
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,440
Seems to promise too much, life's a little bit too ordered.

447
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:26,160
And Job and Ecclesiastes are later biblical authors saying, hey, it's not that simple,

448
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,800
guys, kind of disagreeing with Proverbs.

449
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,600
People will talk about a crisis in wisdom literature.

450
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,640
Do you find that helpful or convincing?

451
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:35,600
Do you?

452
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,120
I don't find it convincing.

453
00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:42,160
I can understand why one might read Proverbs as rather naive.

454
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:47,840
It seems to be rather simplistic, too black and white, not enough nuance.

455
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,840
And then Job and Ecclesiastes come along and just blow up the whole business.

456
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:59,920
I think I find it quite striking that in contrast to the ways in which the early church read

457
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:07,440
Proverbs, Job or Proverbs, Ecclesiastes in the song in accord with a particular curriculum,

458
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,360
almost along a particular trajectory that Proverbs is going to teach you ethics,

459
00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:15,360
Ecclesiastes, it then prepares you virtue.

460
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:19,200
Ecclesiastes then teaches you sort of physics, the sort of the nature of the world and how

461
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:19,760
to see it.

462
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:24,080
And then the song is for those who are able to discern higher realities.

463
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,960
I find there you have what seems to be a fascinating sort of curriculum in church.

464
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:34,080
A sort of curriculum and trajectory where they build on one another.

465
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,080
And yet this sort of model that you've set up that many have set up in terms of this

466
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:43,520
conflict among the so-called wisdom books, it feels to me that it's just sort of tracing

467
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,360
much of the thought of Western thinking and philosophy.

468
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:53,440
You move from pre-critical naivete, which is Proverbs, and then you get the Enlightenment

469
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:54,720
with something like Job.

470
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,840
And then we'll just go full on postmodern with something like Ecclesiastes.

471
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,600
And I find that maybe that's sort of the air that we breathe.

472
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:06,880
And we've just sort of slipped into implicitly or explicitly this mode of thought that we've

473
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:12,480
just mapped these books onto the history of Western thought that I just find ironic in

474
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:12,960
many ways.

475
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,680
I tend to think they're complementary.

476
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:21,840
I think Proverbs is well aware of the mysteries of life in this world, especially in light

477
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,440
of divine action and agency.

478
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:28,560
And even many of the sayings that seem simplistic in terms of character and action and punishment,

479
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,240
reward, are totally open in terms of timing and agency.

480
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:33,360
When does this happen?

481
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:40,560
Proverbs is comfortable with mystery, with the inexplicable activities of life, but doesn't

482
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,400
foreground that as much as something like Job or Ecclesiastes.

483
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:49,200
And I think they're just showing us different facets of what it means to be human in this

484
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:50,240
world that's quite helpful.

485
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:51,040
Yeah, yeah.

486
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:56,560
We're in danger of seeing our own frustrated image in the text as modern secular people.

487
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:57,120
Oh, sure.

488
00:25:57,120 --> 00:26:02,560
With the pretension of the Enlightenment to intellectually master and grasp the world

489
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,040
and then it shatters and doesn't work and we just find it in the text.

490
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,040
Whereas they're wiser than us.

491
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:07,520
Yeah.

492
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,520
So I'm trying to think of a brief way to ask this.

493
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,640
Job's a difficult book to read for all kinds of reasons.

494
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:21,280
What do you think it's fair to say that Proverbs is there, that we're supposed to read both

495
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:26,320
together and Proverbs is there to assure you that trusting God and careful attention to

496
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:31,840
the words of the wise, it may not happen quickly, it may not happen in the way or the form that

497
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,520
you expect, but infallibly that will result in blessing for you and the people around

498
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:36,000
you.

499
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:43,760
But that Job is helping us be very aware that the time of the day is not the time of the

500
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:49,840
day, but it's very aware that the timing and the form of that blessing coming is very much

501
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,360
at God's disposal and it may be a long hard road to get there.

502
00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:56,880
Is that a fair way to articulate something of the relationship between those books?

503
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:57,680
I think you're right.

504
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:04,400
And I think what strikes me is I thought more about the way that the Book of Job explores

505
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,400
the nature of God's quote unquote policies, John Walton calls it God's policy.

506
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:13,680
So what Hasatan says in chapter one, 10 and 11.

507
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:19,520
So the adversary, the Satan, Satan, I mean, we, you can get it, we can get into the weeds

508
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:24,960
on that if you want to, but I think it's fascinating that in addition to raising the issue of whether

509
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:30,240
disinterested piety does Job fear God without benefit, is that possible?

510
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:36,000
You have the question of, look, you've just blessed the work of his hands.

511
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:37,760
You've put a hedge of protection around him.

512
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,080
Of course you've kind of rigged the system.

513
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,000
You've incentivized the whole system.

514
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,040
To be fake.

515
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:43,600
To be fake.

516
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:43,840
Yeah.

517
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,760
So yeah, if you're just going to crank, you know, be, do something good.

518
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:48,800
You're a good person.

519
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:49,520
Pull the lever.

520
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:50,400
Out comes your reward.

521
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,400
Of course people are going to fear you and worship you.

522
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:58,400
I find it quite fascinating that the way that the book as a whole explores that sort of policy

523
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,480
and nuances, maybe a misunderstanding of how that actually works in Proverbs elsewhere

524
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:10,720
in the canon is when you get to the divine speeches, subtly in chapter 38, God talks

525
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,760
about how the wicked are punished there.

526
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,520
The darkness on them, their punishment.

527
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:22,720
And then the beginning of the second speech, you know, he invites Job to sort of execute

528
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:27,440
justice against the proud and then against the wicked, crushing the wicked, humbling

529
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:28,000
the proud.

530
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:33,680
His justice, that those renderings of justice say nothing about rewarding righteous people.

531
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,640
It's only about punishing wicked people.

532
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:39,040
Yeah.

533
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:46,000
So is God in a box confined to governing the world in accord with an understanding of justice

534
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,080
that is both punishing the wicked and rewarding righteous people?

535
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:56,560
The answer to that question, it seems to me at the end is no rewarding righteous people

536
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,720
isn't necessarily constitutive of God's justice.

537
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:04,000
It just happens to focus on punishing the wicked in one way or another.

538
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,400
And yet the head scratcher for me is that seems to be the message of the divine.

539
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,440
The divine speeches, at least as it concerns retribution.

540
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,680
And then God turns right back around chapter 42 and rewards.

541
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:14,800
So it's like, what the heck?

542
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,160
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

543
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:16,720
Yeah.

544
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:21,360
It reminds me, I read, I was reading this is completely, you know, a tangent, but somewhere

545
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,920
in Calvin's Institute, he's arguing with Roman Catholics about grace and reward and all that.

546
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,480
And Calvin just says when Christians obey God, they still don't deserve the reward.

547
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:31,440
God's just being gracious.

548
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:32,560
He gives it to you anyway.

549
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,280
You know, I wonder maybe if there's a similar thought there.

550
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:40,560
You mentioned Michael Fox more than once, who's a Jewish rabbi who taught in Wisconsin,

551
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:41,840
I think a wonderful scholar.

552
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:47,040
He pointed out that there are some things God could say that might seem obvious that

553
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:48,400
would completely fail.

554
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,040
It would destroy the relationship with Job.

555
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,680
If he showed up and said, oh, but look how nice I am to you.

556
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:54,720
I reward the righteous.

557
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,200
It would look like a father trying to pacify a spoiled child or something.

558
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:04,160
In a way, God can't talk about that, even though he is going to bless Job in the end.

559
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,480
I'll never forget reading Michael Fox.

560
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:12,800
He said once, inexplicable suffering has a role in the divine economy because it makes

561
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:19,680
unconditional loyalty to God possible, which is a very obvious point when you think about it.

562
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,640
But to pretty selfish people like me might not be obvious after I read Proverbs.

563
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:25,520
No, of course.

564
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:30,240
I think, yeah, I think it's right to note those conditions that God has created in the economy

565
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:36,400
that make that relational dependence absolutely necessary and right.

566
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:41,200
Yeah, I get the sense Job is trying to have its cake and eat it in the sense it's on the

567
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,560
one hand trying to say Job is not left in the darkness.

568
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,880
He's not left a story that's not the end of his story.

569
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:53,120
And it's also being utterly realistic about the incomprehensible heartbreaks that happen

570
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,160
that are never explained to Job and never revealed to Job.

571
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,360
Could we just say something about Ecclesiastes?

572
00:30:59,360 --> 00:30:59,840
Yeah, for sure.

573
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:01,120
At the end, I love it.

574
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,040
Ecclesiastes feels like physical therapy to me.

575
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:04,080
It really hurts.

576
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,440
And then the next day I feel so much better.

577
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,360
Something's gotten worked out.

578
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,120
What would you say Ecclesiastes is about?

579
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,080
How is Ecclesiastes helping us be wise in God's world?

580
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:25,440
I think Ecclesiastes in its unique way helps us to see what it means to be a human being

581
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:26,080
in this world.

582
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:38,480
It encourages us, challenges us, I would almost say compels us to just embrace both our finitude.

583
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,360
We are very limited people.

584
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,680
We do not understand the past.

585
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,440
We do not understand the present.

586
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,680
We do not understand the future fully.

587
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,360
We do not understand the work of God.

588
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:50,880
We will never understand the work of God.

589
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,720
We don't have a sense of time and the sweep of time and our place within time.

590
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,720
And I find that liberating.

591
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:05,440
It liberates me to just respond in gratitude, in relational dependence on God, on others

592
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:11,360
and the gifts that he so graciously gives and how the teacher, how coheal it helps us

593
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:17,280
to see things not through the arithmetic of profit, but through the arithmetic of portion.

594
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:23,920
And that I think creates the conditions to engender not sort of what can I do to be a

595
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,480
human being, but sort of what can I do next?

596
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,080
How can I gain an advantage?

597
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,120
Is there an advantage and a benefit to be had in this?

598
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:32,720
How can I get ahead of life?

599
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,840
But is there just a portion that I've been given in the unique seasons that God establishes

600
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,600
that I can find contentment in and enjoy as His good gifts?

601
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:47,040
Chapter three of Ecclesiastes is one of the most moving things I've ever read inside of

602
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:48,080
scripture outside.

603
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,560
It seems like it's getting at that maddening sense that God has a plan.

604
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,600
I get just a glimmer of it, but I never see the whole.

605
00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:00,000
I never, I just kind of get day after day in different kinds of times that I don't choose,

606
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,440
but I just sort of have to receive.

607
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:01,940
You're right.

608
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:09,200
Well, you've mentioned a number of other scholars through you've read in this area very deeply.

609
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,840
Just as we finish here, when is your commentary coming out?

610
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:17,600
So I have a commentary on Proverbs with the Zondervan Exegetical Commentary Series.

611
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:18,160
It's in press.

612
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:19,360
It'll be out next summer.

613
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:25,680
And I have a textbook for Baker on reading wisdom in the Psalms as Christian scripture.

614
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,280
It's one of their new textbook series that's also going to be out next summer.

615
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:30,560
Absolutely wonderful.

616
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,560
Everyone listening should buy those books and read them.

617
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:34,960
I've learned a great deal from you.

618
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,280
If there are any books, if people are listening and this is something they'd be interested in

619
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,840
learning more about, are there books or authors you would recommend to them?

620
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,320
Yeah, I think I would recommend your stuff on the book of Job.

621
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,560
What to recommend in Proverbs, I mean, depending on where the interest level may be, I think,

622
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:57,120
I found among other books, I found Ann Stewart's book, Poetic Ethics in Proverbs,

623
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,040
quite helpful thinking about the different pedagogies and how the book of Proverbs work,

624
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,240
really, really helpful with Ecclesiastes.

625
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,240
Jacques Alouel's book, Reason for Being, I find super helpful.

626
00:34:08,240 --> 00:34:08,880
He's wonderful.

627
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:09,440
Yeah, it is.

628
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:10,400
He's wonderful.

629
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,280
Craig Bartholomew's stuff there I find really helpful too.

630
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:14,240
Yeah, wonderful.

631
00:34:14,240 --> 00:34:18,800
Chris, thank you so much for, I could keep asking you questions, but I think I need to let you go.

632
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:20,160
Thank you very much for being with us.

633
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:20,800
Pleasure, Eric.

634
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:45,600
Thanks for having me.