1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,960
Hello and welcome to Deep Roots, the podcast brought to you by Oak Hill College.

2
00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,920
My name is Tim Ward and I'm one of the teaching staff here.

3
00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,040
And I'm delighted to have two special guests with me here.

4
00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:13,400
I've really been looking forward to this because two of my favourite people are in the room.

5
00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:15,440
And I'm not just saying that because you're here.

6
00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:17,520
It's true. John Tuckwell, who's...

7
00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,040
Do you mean us two or the many people who are lined up against the wall over there?

8
00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,200
I love all the hidden tech people. OK, good.

9
00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:26,600
And I also love you two guys.

10
00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:30,960
So John Tuckwell, who's the pastor of the church that I attend with my family,

11
00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,960
pastor and friend as well, and also my friend and former colleague

12
00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,240
Adrian Reynolds, former colleague from our time together, working at Proclamation Trust.

13
00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:39,920
Hello, Tim. Hello.

14
00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,000
Thank you for coming down here. Great to be here.

15
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:47,720
From up there in Market Harbour, where you are a job for the FIC, a job title.

16
00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:49,800
You told me before we hit record and I've forgotten.

17
00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,280
Yes, all to say what the FIC is, people might not know that.

18
00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,160
It's the Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches.

19
00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:59,360
Yep. And I'm the head of national ministries, which sounds very grand.

20
00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,120
Absolutely. It basically means I do a bit of everything.

21
00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,840
Tremendous. I've been trying to think, what is the title of the topic we're talking about?

22
00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:07,400
So I'm going to set it up as quite general.

23
00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:12,000
We're talking about the pattern of the Sunday meeting for a local church.

24
00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,480
And the reason for getting you two together is, well, John, the church

25
00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,160
you lead and that I'm part of.

26
00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:23,080
We've recently made a significant shift in the pattern of Sunday services.

27
00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:27,240
And Adrian, you did something similar in the church in Hampshire when you were a pastor.

28
00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,240
Yep. We'll get on top of just what that is, because it's quite unusual.

29
00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,320
What you've both done, it's not unheard of in this country, but it is fairly unusual.

30
00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:37,880
So we'll come to that.

31
00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,200
But before we get there, just describe the kind of church that,

32
00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,760
Adrian, you did pastor, John, that you pastor now.

33
00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:45,920
Adrian, you kick off.

34
00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:51,000
So rural, small town, large village, I think you'd probably call it, in Hampshire.

35
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:56,600
It was a Grace Baptist Church, quite conservative Baptist chapel, really, you might call it.

36
00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:03,840
Very consistent congregation, not huge numbers of visitors and walk ins down a long,

37
00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:09,360
unmade lane that you had to kind of navigate on your foot in your four by four, really.

38
00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:15,360
And probably 60, 50, 60 adults, maybe 20, 25 children, that sort of size.

39
00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,760
So, I mean, within the FIC, interesting that that would be just below average size.

40
00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,800
So, yes, smallish, people knew one another.

41
00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:28,000
Pretty regular attendance, morning and evening service on Sunday,

42
00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:33,600
that probably 60% of the church who came in the morning would also come in the evening.

43
00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,080
So not different congregations, one congregation.

44
00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,880
Yeah. And so you were the only member of staff there?

45
00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,200
I was the only member of staff, yeah. And I had three other elders who led the church with me.

46
00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,920
And John, Christchurch Cockfosters, just a mile up the road here.

47
00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:48,080
Just a mile up the road. Top of the hill.

48
00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,560
Yeah. Just a mile up the road, top of the Piccadilly line.

49
00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,280
So lots of commuters.

50
00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:59,000
It is, I mean, Cockfosters, it's a bit of a village on the top of London.

51
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:04,720
And so there's a village community, people know each other within the village

52
00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,960
and quite an ethnically diverse church and a good spread of ages.

53
00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,200
Lots of young families, church school, it's a good church school.

54
00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,240
People want to get their kids in.

55
00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:20,800
But we are nought through to 103, I think our elders church family member is.

56
00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:30,320
And on a Sunday, around 350, probably sort of 70, 80 of those would be under 18.

57
00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:37,600
And lots, Cockfosters is a place where you move to and you don't move away from.

58
00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:42,160
So lots of people have been in the church for 50, 60, 70 years.

59
00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,560
Yeah. Are there other evangelical churches within reach?

60
00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,520
Because that might have an impact actually on our conversation.

61
00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:48,200
What else is around? Yeah, there is.

62
00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:52,400
Because 100 years ago, we planted into Hadley Wood, which is actually in our parish.

63
00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:57,920
So St Paul's Hadley Wood is, I mean, there's a crow flies about a mile away.

64
00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:02,200
Grace Church Highlands was a plant 15 years ago, not far.

65
00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:08,160
St Thomas Oakwood, conservative evangelical church in the neighbouring parish.

66
00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:13,000
So if you had a car and you didn't like Reverend Tuckwall's preaching.

67
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:14,840
Oodles of choice. Oh, yeah.

68
00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:16,600
I mean, not far away. Interesting.

69
00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,120
Enfield Town Community Church. Terrific independent church.

70
00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,200
Not far away. Yeah, quite different to that.

71
00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:27,600
So quite a contained town and bordering on one side on to locate it on Sandhurst

72
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,960
fleet sort of area. So around there,

73
00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:35,320
lots of army barracks, which were quite cut off from us.

74
00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:41,120
Only one other evangelical church, which was a very, very woolly.

75
00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,600
I think to describe it as a middle of the road evangelical church would be quite

76
00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,960
yeah, quite generous.

77
00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:49,400
So that was the only other option.

78
00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,960
OK, well, now I've built the anticipation.

79
00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:56,200
Let's now let's talk about the change that John, you've made recently.

80
00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,560
Adrian, you made a while ago when you were a pastor.

81
00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:03,400
We'll come to the why in a minute, but let's just get a sense of

82
00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,720
if someone arrives at Christchurch Cockfosters on a typical Sunday morning,

83
00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:14,640
John, walk us through what happens in comparison to how it used to be.

84
00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:21,120
OK, so the the previous model was a fairly classic nine am traditional service.

85
00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:27,040
Forty or fifty or so would have been there with a ten thirty bursting at the seams.

86
00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:31,320
Service once a month would have been all ages.

87
00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:32,280
Kids groups.

88
00:05:32,280 --> 00:05:34,600
I mean, the kids were barely in the service.

89
00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:40,080
They would have they started out and just came in for the last five minutes.

90
00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:41,560
Yeah, unusual way round that was.

91
00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:43,760
Now they started out and they did.

92
00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,880
Yeah, of course, some problems.

93
00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:54,080
But now turn up, we have got nine fifteen service or eleven thirty service.

94
00:05:54,080 --> 00:06:00,000
Both services are fifty five minutes long, or at least they are on the planning sheet.

95
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:05,080
And twenty minutes sermon, they're identical services, you know, unless you've got a baptism.

96
00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,520
So you don't have that lit kind of liturgical loser distinction anymore.

97
00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:11,240
They are identical.

98
00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:12,240
They are identical.

99
00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,320
We do have a midweek monthly more liturgical.

100
00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,400
And that has been part of the challenge.

101
00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:25,000
So nine fifteen through to ten past ten, eleven thirty through till twelve twenty five.

102
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,080
And then in and and no kids, no separate kids provision, no kids.

103
00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:30,480
Yeah, so the kids are in those services.

104
00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:31,480
Kids are in those services.

105
00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:32,480
That's the joy.

106
00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,200
OK, between those services, we have what we call crossover.

107
00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,840
So ten fifteen till eleven fifteen.

108
00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:42,800
And the idea is you come to the first service and stay for crossover or come for crossover

109
00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:44,960
and stay for the second service.

110
00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,760
It's a package and crossover.

111
00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:49,640
There's loads that goes on in crossover.

112
00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,400
Our kids ministry takes place there in terms of the kids groups.

113
00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,320
We have our inquirers groups would take place then.

114
00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:03,840
Because you can say to the parents, drop off your kids, come to the come to the cafe.

115
00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:05,560
We're going to tell you about Jesus.

116
00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:07,840
We do some training then, because we do training.

117
00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:13,200
I help lead the small group leaders and then we do the training for them in that crossover

118
00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:14,200
school.

119
00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,160
Life groups, life groups.

120
00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:17,160
Sure.

121
00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,760
Giving it's generic name.

122
00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:28,840
What proportion of people in very broad terms come to the crossover who have been at the

123
00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:30,560
combined two services?

124
00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,160
Well, in very broad terms, most.

125
00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:34,160
OK, good.

126
00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:35,160
But certainly not all.

127
00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,640
And there is a pattern of we've noticed some parents will drop their kids off to the kids

128
00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,600
groups and then go to the cafe around the corner.

129
00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:44,480
So does that.

130
00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:53,200
So someone comes you either do church or the service crossover or crossover service.

131
00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,320
And within cross-over, should I say this now?

132
00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,440
Yeah, go for it.

133
00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,240
Engage groups, we call them adult groups.

134
00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,080
They're sort of we want them to be sort of conversational.

135
00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:10,320
I've described them as it's like coffee time, but with guided theological discussion.

136
00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:14,760
So you're trying to talk to people and there's just a bit of input from the front.

137
00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:16,040
That's not heavy on input.

138
00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:17,040
It's not heavy.

139
00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:18,040
No.

140
00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,680
So 45 minutes and 50 minutes from the front, 30 minutes in groups is the way we try and

141
00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:27,600
frame it for leaders, not just led by staff, church family members get to input in there.

142
00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,600
It's been a good training ground for that whole range of topics.

143
00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,240
Just give us a sense because that's one thing that's really struck me is what extraordinary

144
00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:35,800
range of topics we've had.

145
00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,160
Give us a sense of the kind of things we have done.

146
00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:45,600
So we've done we spent three weeks on predestination, thinking that through and sort of deeper theology.

147
00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:47,200
Did you plan that before?

148
00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,120
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

149
00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:50,120
Someone does.

150
00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:55,880
Come on, someone had to come up with that, didn't they?

151
00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:56,880
We did three weeks.

152
00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:58,640
So they generally run in three week blocks.

153
00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,480
So you're not trying to overpack the content.

154
00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,720
Three weeks think about the environment and Christian care for the environment.

155
00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:07,640
We've thought about money.

156
00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:12,720
We've thought about sharing your faith, how to welcome well in a church.

157
00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:14,920
Care for the poor and the homeless.

158
00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,720
Homelessness was a big one.

159
00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,360
So we've done a real range of topics for church.

160
00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:21,360
Thank you.

161
00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,280
We'll come on to the why in a moment.

162
00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,120
Just want to get a sense of what you did.

163
00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,720
So Adrian, when you were a pastor, you were telling me beforehand, there's what you actually

164
00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,920
did, which wasn't quite would have been your ideal.

165
00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:36,240
So tell us what you did.

166
00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:37,240
So I'll tell you what I did.

167
00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:41,240
So if you turned up at church, you would have turned up at 10.

168
00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:47,960
Ten we did classes of various kinds for 45 minutes.

169
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,760
So Sunday school classes, we called them Sunday school classes, children's Sunday school classes,

170
00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,740
kind of traditional Sunday school classes, I guess, and adult Sunday school classes.

171
00:09:56,740 --> 00:09:58,520
We had two or sometimes three groups.

172
00:09:58,520 --> 00:09:59,800
We were that sort of size.

173
00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,820
That was the sort of sustainable level for us.

174
00:10:02,820 --> 00:10:06,080
And in those groups, a lot of the same things you did, actually, John.

175
00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:12,880
So we worked in six week blocks or in fact, we morphed to work working in half term blocks.

176
00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,760
It became more simple.

177
00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,600
Because so many people in the church are thinking around school terms and half terms.

178
00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,720
So we worked in half term blocks and we sometimes did books of the Bible.

179
00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,240
We sometimes did training for evangelism.

180
00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,680
We might have talked about discipleship topics and how you live out your faith in this situation

181
00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:31,680
or that situation.

182
00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:34,960
We might have talked about children with special needs and how we care for those, you know,

183
00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:35,960
those sorts of topics.

184
00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,800
I guess the same sort of topics that you're talking about.

185
00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:40,280
And we did those with adults.

186
00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,680
And slight differences, we did use to cut things different ways.

187
00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:49,800
So sometimes we would meet men and women separately, which gave an opportunity both women to be

188
00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:54,720
teaching, but also for women to be instructed and for men to be instructed in their particular

189
00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:55,720
roles.

190
00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:57,440
We might have met marrieds and singles.

191
00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,600
We did that once.

192
00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,760
We might go people who are at work, people who are retired.

193
00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:08,440
We might do different levels that become slightly contentious.

194
00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:09,660
And we actually did three levels.

195
00:11:09,660 --> 00:11:10,660
We did revelation.

196
00:11:10,660 --> 00:11:12,800
We did it in three different groups.

197
00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:13,800
Yeah.

198
00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:19,680
And we called them, we called them skimmed, semi skimmed and full fat.

199
00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:21,800
And you could choose which one you were self selecting.

200
00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:22,800
You chose which one.

201
00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:27,120
Do you want to go to the full fat and really wrestle with, you know, what the millennium

202
00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,560
is or do you just want to go and hear some very basic stuff about how revelation perhaps

203
00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:33,960
works and encourages you to keep going?

204
00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:34,960
Yeah.

205
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,040
So, yeah, all those different ways we did that.

206
00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:45,080
So that was 45 minutes, then 45 minutes coffee time and all together as a church and then

207
00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:46,560
a service altogether.

208
00:11:46,560 --> 00:11:50,600
And actually, maybe we might not have time to talk about this, the whole language about

209
00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:51,920
what you say, do you say service?

210
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:52,920
Do you say meeting?

211
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:53,920
Do you say gathering?

212
00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:54,920
Yeah.

213
00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:56,560
It's all very, all the language is very loaded, isn't it?

214
00:11:56,560 --> 00:12:02,800
But as people would understand it, a service of an hour altogether, the whole church, no

215
00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,800
crèche, no kids groups, everyone together.

216
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,720
25 minutes sermon as part of that.

217
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,560
And we can talk a bit more about how that actually worked in practice.

218
00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:13,560
That would be the morning.

219
00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:16,960
Who taught your groups?

220
00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:22,440
Generally elders or one or two other people qualified to teach, I would say.

221
00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,840
And we weren't flush with teachers, I don't think.

222
00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,400
And we never got people in because it was Sunday morning, people were committed in other

223
00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:29,400
places to church.

224
00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:30,400
So we did it in house.

225
00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:31,400
Occasionally we watched things.

226
00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,400
So we might have had a video we watched.

227
00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,720
So maybe it was some evangelism training.

228
00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,480
We used Colin Buchanan stuff.

229
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,080
And then we had an evening service as well.

230
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:43,800
We didn't drop the evening service.

231
00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:44,800
Okay.

232
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:46,240
Now, what did I want to do?

233
00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,200
Yeah, drop the evening service.

234
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:56,160
I wanted to have four hours together as a church on Sunday, a blog, which had a similar

235
00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:00,360
sort of morning classes or instruction or discipleship training, whatever you might

236
00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:08,000
call it, for the whole age group, split up probably by age group, a break for coffee,

237
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:13,840
a worship gathering together, lunch together, probably with the Lord's Supper, and then

238
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,280
a short prayer meeting altogether as a church.

239
00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:17,280
No evening service.

240
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:18,280
Yeah.

241
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:19,280
Didn't happen.

242
00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:20,280
But that didn't happen.

243
00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:21,280
So lunch didn't happen.

244
00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:22,280
No.

245
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:27,080
And because within church leadership, you have grand visions, don't you?

246
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,240
You have plans of things you'd like to do.

247
00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,720
And sometimes you just have to think very carefully about, you know, what's going to

248
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:34,760
keep the church together.

249
00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:40,040
And actually, I reflect on it now, I think I might have pushed a bit, I should have pushed

250
00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:45,080
a little bit harder because actually I set myself up for producing three things a week

251
00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,880
instead of two, which suddenly became quite a lot more work.

252
00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:49,880
But that's another story.

253
00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:50,880
Yeah, yeah, that's really difficult.

254
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:51,880
Yeah.

255
00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:57,960
The big thing we're getting to is why, why would you do this?

256
00:13:57,960 --> 00:13:58,960
Why indeed?

257
00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,080
Because this is unusual in the UK.

258
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,400
It has been, as lots of people know, it has been more common in the States, although I

259
00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:10,880
think that's stars beginning to wane a little bit, a lot of the newer church plants in the

260
00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:15,160
United States, I gather, wouldn't have what would classically be called an adult Sunday

261
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:16,160
school.

262
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:20,920
John, one of the moments I can remember when you were, I mean, you and the leadership of

263
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,120
the church were very much leading us on this, there's, well, I thought it was a glorious

264
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:25,120
moment of leadership.

265
00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,720
I mean, I know you're getting some pushback and there were discussions around the church

266
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:29,720
family.

267
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:30,720
Inevitably.

268
00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:31,720
It's new.

269
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:32,720
How will this be?

270
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:33,720
How will that be?

271
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:34,720
Fine.

272
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:35,720
People don't always like change.

273
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,720
And you stood up, you said with a big grin on your face to the whole church family one

274
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,360
day.

275
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,920
Very few churches in this country do this.

276
00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:47,320
We'll do it for a trial period and we may discover why very few churches in this country

277
00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:48,320
do this.

278
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,160
Now, wonderfully, we're through that trial period and the church family wanted to continue

279
00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:53,720
and that's just wonderful.

280
00:14:53,720 --> 00:15:03,520
For each of you, why do you think this general pattern, you did doing it in different ways,

281
00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:09,120
but this general pattern of kids in the service and then an adult Sunday school alongside

282
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:13,800
something like an adult Sunday school alongside kids Sunday school.

283
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,640
Why does that not happen in the UK?

284
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:17,640
Why does that seem alien?

285
00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,400
I have said, I've met quite a number of pastors.

286
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,800
When you talk about it, seem to say, do you know somewhere deep in my heart of hearts,

287
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,320
I feel there's a rightness to that and I'd like to give it a go.

288
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,040
But is what I've heard quite a bit.

289
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,680
Yeah, it's pretty scary.

290
00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:38,560
And everyone, so I mean, I guess I can gauge that from the reaction of the church family

291
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,160
when we start talking about it.

292
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:47,680
Parents fear the misbehaving child and the exposure that gives to them.

293
00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:54,840
Non-parents fear being completely disrupted by the kids tearing around.

294
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,880
There was quite loud voices.

295
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:04,440
So within a sort of conservative evangelical mindset saying, well, the sermon is the main

296
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:10,760
thing on a Sunday morning, and if we're doing something that makes it harder for grownups

297
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,880
to hear the sermon, then it must be a bad thing.

298
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:15,880
End of discussion.

299
00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:17,880
Can understand that?

300
00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:18,880
Yeah.

301
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,640
So why did you do it?

302
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,520
Because I don't think church is just a sermon.

303
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,800
Why did you do it?

304
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,680
Well, I, we were quite clear about why we were doing it.

305
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:35,920
And I think probably three convictions, which are kind of linked.

306
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:41,600
The first conviction was we were trying to make the sermon do too much.

307
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:48,280
So there's an awful lot of disciple making that should be going on in church, which is

308
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,760
not just about individual to individual.

309
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:53,440
It's about the responsibility of the church.

310
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,280
How do you help people do all those things we've been talking about?

311
00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:00,400
Actually, you've been covering some really useful topics, John, that actually, where

312
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,400
do you cover those topics?

313
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,200
Where do you help people live for Christ on Monday morning, wherever they are?

314
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,880
And there was a missing piece.

315
00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,160
Well, for about 50 years in many evangelical churches in this country, the answer to that

316
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,840
has been, oh, that's where your small groups come in.

317
00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:19,880
Well, yes, except we all know that they have their own challenges.

318
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:24,180
But I think also there's something about the way that that teaching is linked to the authority

319
00:17:24,180 --> 00:17:26,440
of the church.

320
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:31,240
So it's interesting if you go back over over time in church history, a lot of the a lot

321
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:36,440
of the really deep stuff that's been produced in terms of resources for the church has arisen

322
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:43,400
out of church gathered to hear teaching on subjects, whether that's Bible books.

323
00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:48,200
So Lloyd-Jones famous Romans lectures came out of a Friday evening.

324
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:49,200
They were not Sunday sermon.

325
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,680
Many people think those are Sunday sermons and they weren't.

326
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:57,200
Just near to me in East London, St Dunstan's had a church lecture.

327
00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:58,200
That was his title.

328
00:17:58,200 --> 00:17:59,200
Hang on, you said you lived in Leicestershire?

329
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,120
I used to live in East London.

330
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:08,200
And the church there a few hundred years ago had a church lecturer called Jeremiah Burroughs,

331
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:12,520
whose midweek lectures were the rare became the rare jewel of Christian contentment, one

332
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,440
of my favourite Christian books, preached by the way, at six a.m. in the morning.

333
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,600
That's when they had their midweek meeting, which really is about Christian contentment,

334
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,120
isn't it, if you're getting up at six a.m. to listen to sermons on content, lectures

335
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:24,120
on contentment.

336
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:29,680
So there's there's a depth that you can't manage in a 25 minute sermon.

337
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:36,160
So that was the first conviction that we needed more depth in our teaching, essentially.

338
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:42,360
Second conviction is that the church, sorry, the the New Testament, the new covenant building

339
00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:45,740
block of the kingdom is the church.

340
00:18:45,740 --> 00:18:47,680
So we want to get the church together.

341
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,840
We want to be together.

342
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:56,680
And if you are a believer, whatever age you are, actually, we want you to be part of that.

343
00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:01,280
We want you to be sharing the means of grace together.

344
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:03,140
It seems odd.

345
00:19:03,140 --> 00:19:07,800
It just seems mismatched that we have this conviction about the church being the family

346
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:09,160
and the building block.

347
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,560
And yet we all go off and do our own thing.

348
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:17,160
It be like going I'm going to my parents 60th wedding anniversary in a couple of weeks,

349
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:18,640
and they booked a room at a local golf club.

350
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,560
It be like us all turning up and then going off to different places.

351
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:22,760
It just seems odd.

352
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:24,680
Why would you do that?

353
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:25,680
So you get used to it.

354
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:26,960
We do get used to it.

355
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:27,960
Yes.

356
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,200
And there's a simplicity about it, because actually, we don't have to worry about people

357
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:32,520
eating fish, which I really hate.

358
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:34,360
So you do get used to it.

359
00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:37,440
So that was the second fiction that the building block is the church.

360
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:42,160
And then the third conviction is that there's something significant about the gathering

361
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:47,960
of God's people, and especially about the preaching, but not only the preaching, but

362
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:53,440
actually there is an encounter with Christ together.

363
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,320
And whether that's in the Lord's Supper, whatever your theology is of the Lord's Supper, whether

364
00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:01,320
it's kind of swingly at one end or perhaps more Calvinistic at the other end, whatever

365
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,760
it is, there's something special about doing that together.

366
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,000
There's something special about the preaching of God's word.

367
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,920
It's not just a talk.

368
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,000
It might be a talk, but it's more than that.

369
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,440
It's an encounter with Christ together.

370
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:20,160
So actually, those three things came together to say, why would we not be doing this?

371
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:21,160
Yeah.

372
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:25,920
And as you know, I'm on board with this, but...

373
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:27,960
I've never heard you talk about that.

374
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,640
I'm surprised to hear that.

375
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,720
Of course, some people will naturally feel, and I think this is a perfectly reasonable

376
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,520
response.

377
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,240
Is it a deficient encounter with Christ when a group of people meet in someone's home on

378
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,840
a Wednesday evening to read scripture and pray?

379
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:49,200
My answer to that is no encounter with Christ can be deficient.

380
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:54,240
So any encounter with Christ is supernatural and wonderful and beyond words and beyond

381
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:55,960
description.

382
00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,860
But if there is something about the whole gathered people of God that Christ has ordained,

383
00:21:00,860 --> 00:21:02,800
that must be the best way to experience it.

384
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:03,800
Okay.

385
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:04,800
Okay.

386
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:05,800
Fair enough.

387
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:11,480
So there are really three convictions and actually fairly foundational theological convictions

388
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:12,480
about the nature of...

389
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,680
And which we articulated from the beginning as we were trying to talk to the church about

390
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:16,680
it.

391
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:17,680
Yeah.

392
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,800
One of the challenges is not everyone in the church agreed with them.

393
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:21,920
Okay, sure.

394
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,040
Or not everyone in the church understood them.

395
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:25,040
Yeah.

396
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:26,040
Or really grasped them.

397
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,920
And I think that's one of the challenges when you're making decisions that appear quite

398
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:35,600
radical and you're doing them for convictional positions, it's not...

399
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:36,600
Within church, everyone knows this.

400
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:37,600
You've got a wide range of people.

401
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,840
You've got new believers, you've got old believers, you've got believers from this tradition,

402
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:45,200
from that tradition, you've got believers who think this theological point is the most

403
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,840
important, others who think it's the other one and everything in between.

404
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,920
Some of you think that no theological points are important.

405
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,700
So actually you might have very clear convictions.

406
00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:55,520
You might even be able to articulate them.

407
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,680
That doesn't necessarily win over people to the cause.

408
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,080
And that's true in a lot of church life, isn't it?

409
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:02,080
Yeah, absolutely.

410
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:03,080
Absolutely.

411
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:08,640
Now, what's interesting about the two churches is a similar move, but looking really different

412
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:13,040
because of different demographics and different social occasions and so on.

413
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:19,920
So John, for you and the Leishabbot Christ Church, what were the core drivers for this?

414
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:27,040
Well, I mean, lockdown actually, from some sense, we learn a lot in lockdown.

415
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,520
Because we made this change coming out of lockdown, didn't we?

416
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:30,520
Yeah.

417
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:31,520
Had you planned it before lockdown?

418
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:32,520
No.

419
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:33,520
So it really was driven by that experience?

420
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,960
Well, we've got a church council member who, I can picture him, he wandered up to my window

421
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,560
one day, so I tapped on it, opened the window, socially distanced.

422
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:41,560
Nice going.

423
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,360
And he just said, everything's stopped, isn't it?

424
00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:46,360
Everything's changed.

425
00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:51,060
What a wonderful catalyst for change God has given to us.

426
00:22:51,060 --> 00:22:56,440
And then we went through what we call a ministry review process where we looked at 10 key ministry

427
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,040
areas of church life.

428
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:05,200
I looked at Sunday services and we tried to listen to people's stories and it was fascinating.

429
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,280
So we had this 9am liturgical service and the assumption was everyone who went to that

430
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,520
must prefer a more liturgical service.

431
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,760
You phone them up, you chat to them, you check how they're doing in lockdown and all of that.

432
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,520
And you listen to their experience of church.

433
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:22,360
Oh no, I'd rather be at the 10.30, but I know I wouldn't get a parking space.

434
00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:24,320
So I come at 9am.

435
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:29,520
Or someone who comes at 10.30, oh no, I'd far rather be at 9am, but I'm never going

436
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:30,520
to make it in time.

437
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,360
I'm not going to get up in time.

438
00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:35,040
And so just hearing those stories.

439
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:41,280
And then one parent said to me, their kids are grown up.

440
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,960
And they said, look, my kids, they knew how to be part of a Sunday school and they knew

441
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,760
how to be part of a youth group.

442
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:53,800
And they knew what it was to be in a student church, but they don't actually know how to

443
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,200
exist in a normal church.

444
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:01,320
Everything had always been tailored specifically around them, which isn't church.

445
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,560
And then other parents telling the stories about their kids hadn't sat through a sermon

446
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,320
until they went to university.

447
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,560
And that was sort of the first moment.

448
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,400
And quite a few of the kids inevitably sort of fell away.

449
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,640
And hearing those stories and saying, look, this just, this isn't a right pattern of

450
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,280
church we've got at the moment.

451
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:25,520
Another way we framed it was because our kids were basically in the service for five minutes

452
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,400
on a Sunday and they were kept in the church hall.

453
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:36,160
And we said, if we said to our over 60 year olds, actually don't gather with us, you go

454
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,600
down to the church hall, you can come in for the last five minutes.

455
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,600
How weird would that, but for some reason we've got used to this concept of the kids not being

456
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,760
with us in the service.

457
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:52,640
And so with the catalyst of lockdown and all of that, we shook everything.

458
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,360
We thought long and hard about what we were trying to achieve.

459
00:24:55,360 --> 00:25:01,240
And as a larger church, the relational poverty, which again, you know, lockdown taught us

460
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:06,520
quite a lot about our needs for relationships and thinking deeply about how can we really

461
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:11,480
get to know each other so that we can do the things that scripture commands us to do as

462
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,600
a church.

463
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:19,000
And then thinking about discipleship and we're in commuterville, you can put things on in

464
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,720
the evenings midweek, but people aren't back for them.

465
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,920
And they just got back and had some dinner.

466
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:26,720
It's hard to make midweek work.

467
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:27,720
Yeah.

468
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:32,240
We get, now we mentioned the Life Group Leader training now happens on Sunday morning.

469
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,440
We get a far bigger proportion of the Life Group Leaders for training on a Sunday morning

470
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,400
than we would midweek evening.

471
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,440
And I don't blame them for that.

472
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,360
Someone's commuted back from the central London to come out again for a meeting.

473
00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:43,360
That's pretty difficult.

474
00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:47,080
And it's a reality of living in an area where you kind of need to be a dual income family

475
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,280
to afford a house.

476
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,720
So you've got to shake your ministry around that.

477
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,960
And that's what we've tried to do.

478
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,480
And it has been glorious.

479
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,480
So actually, we asked you about reasons.

480
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:06,000
What you interesting, what you mentioned is we're talking about kind of Adult Sunday School,

481
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,720
but the driver you've mentioned was not to do with that.

482
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,600
It was to do with the service, the main gathering.

483
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,520
Children in was the conviction.

484
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,200
Yeah, and getting to know each other better.

485
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:22,120
And then, okay, so then you add an extra thing, which is some teaching, but lots of discussion

486
00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:23,120
time for...

487
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:26,760
Because if it wasn't just, if we weren't so interested in getting to know each other well,

488
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,600
then it might be more one directional.

489
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:36,320
I mean, when we read scripture, church isn't described in a one directional and we've preached

490
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,240
our way through 1 Corinthians and we're sort of puzzling, how does that play out in church

491
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:40,240
life?

492
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:46,200
And one of the beautiful aspects of the engage groups is it's so much more multi directional

493
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:47,200
learning from each other.

494
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:52,120
It was a lovely moment recently, we were thinking about mission.

495
00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:53,960
And the question was, who's lived in a different country?

496
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,080
Who's been to church in different country?

497
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,680
Hands up, most of the room.

498
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,320
And what are differences?

499
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:01,380
Tell your story.

500
00:27:01,380 --> 00:27:05,320
And suddenly you got this rich sharing of, oh, you know what church doesn't just look

501
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,360
like it looks like in 21st century England.

502
00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:13,200
I've said, at least as a member of the church family, the things my wife and I particularly

503
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:18,880
appreciate is having that extra space in crossover means that we have got to know a lot more

504
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:26,160
people faster than we would have done previously because in a church of any size, I mean, frankly,

505
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:27,480
coffee time is a zoo, isn't it?

506
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,320
A lot of people are trying to get a drink fast so they can sort of drink and get out

507
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,880
and just having space, 15, 20 minutes to sit and chat.

508
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:37,880
We've really appreciated that.

509
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:38,880
I think the other thing I really appreciate...

510
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:39,880
A lot of people want to come and visit, I think.

511
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,400
The other thing I really appreciate is we're an Anglican suburban church with a church

512
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:45,400
school.

513
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,000
So inevitably we've got a big fringe.

514
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,400
We've got a lot of people who come once a month, but might think of themselves as members.

515
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:57,560
And there's quite a lot of religion around actually, folk religion in the local area.

516
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:03,480
We just felt that in a good way, it raised the stakes of the actual commitment someone

517
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,960
makes to show that they really are a follower of Christ and a member of the church family.

518
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,720
Because arrive at the service going away now feels less comfortable as an option.

519
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:16,280
No, if you belong to this church family, you give your morning because you are committed

520
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,320
to this group of people.

521
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,600
And so, yeah, we've really appreciated those things.

522
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,200
Well, we've been talking about kids in the service.

523
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,640
I love to hear from both of you reflections around that.

524
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:34,000
It seems to me that's increasingly in the air.

525
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,240
It's been particularly strong in certain denominations and flavor of church.

526
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,000
I think others where it's not traditionally been strong, people are beginning to think

527
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:43,760
it.

528
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,840
The little actually for the little bit of reading around the history of this I've done,

529
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,040
I mean, I think it's debated.

530
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:57,000
People tend to find what they think could happen in the history, but there you go.

531
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,200
It does seem to have been pretty uncommon in church history for children regularly to

532
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,920
go out of the service or up to the age of 14 or even 18.

533
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,920
I gather John Knox once wrote something which instructed people quite firmly.

534
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,080
You'll be surprised for John Knox.

535
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:19,400
Scottish Reformation saying don't bring infants in before the age of six.

536
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:20,880
But from the age of six, they're in.

537
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,280
So there were lots of people who didn't seem to like John Knox.

538
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,640
So there's no kind of monolithic church.

539
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,720
Well, the Sunday School as we know it, I think it's pretty easy to prove that Sunday School

540
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,280
as we know it was initially an evangelistic endeavor.

541
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:37,280
Absolutely.

542
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,520
Well, and a humanitarian endeavor to educate the children of the poor.

543
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:41,520
Indeed.

544
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:42,520
And not concurrent.

545
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,880
It generally used to happen Sunday afternoon.

546
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:45,880
No, exactly.

547
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,560
There are many churches that pursue that.

548
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:54,200
Although the Metropolitan Tabernacle here in London, previously of Spurgeon, they still

549
00:29:54,200 --> 00:30:00,760
have fleets of buses and they bus children in from all over South London to do evangelistic

550
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:02,600
Sunday Schools.

551
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:08,080
So I think historically you could debate around have children up to the age of five or six

552
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,960
always been in or have they not?

553
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,880
There seems to be mixed practice.

554
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,320
But certainly sending out everybody up to the age of 14 for a big chunk of the service,

555
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:21,400
including the sermon, looks like a bit of an oddity historically.

556
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:28,680
Agent, as you began to do this and were practicing it, how did you practice it?

557
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,480
Initial feedback from parents was none of the children will cope with this.

558
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,200
To which we said, can we give it a go?

559
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:41,680
And in a small church, you generally have enough relational capital to be able to have

560
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,520
a go at things if you want to.

561
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,080
And also I could go around and see every member of the church within a period of time quite

562
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,880
easily and say, come on, let's give it a go together.

563
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:58,400
So we found that generally children did cope OK, especially if their parents were on board.

564
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,200
So we did provide things for the children to do.

565
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:05,040
So I used to produce a worksheet which had two halves to it.

566
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,080
Half of it were questions that took you through the sermon.

567
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,440
So I had to think about this pretty carefully beforehand.

568
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:12,440
Sermons took longer to prepare.

569
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,040
So there were 12 questions that they answered as they went through.

570
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,920
There was a little quiz that they could give mum and dad to make sure mum and dad had been

571
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:20,920
listening.

572
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,320
That was their favourite bit actually called test mum and dad or put mum and dad on the

573
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:25,320
spot.

574
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,040
So I gave them some questions and answers that they could check over the meal time.

575
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,280
There was a little section called table talk, which was some application questions they

576
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,240
could talk about with mum and dad over the meal time.

577
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,240
So that was for the older kids.

578
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:43,360
And then the back end had some drawing space and word searches, those sorts of things.

579
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,540
So there was quite a lot of preparation putting that together every week, but every child

580
00:31:47,540 --> 00:31:48,540
had that.

581
00:31:48,540 --> 00:31:53,440
And I said to parents, if your children just come and they just draw, let them draw.

582
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:54,440
That's fine.

583
00:31:54,440 --> 00:32:00,320
You know, we believe in the work of the Spirit of God to actually bring people to life and

584
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,280
then give them a hunger and a thirst for what they hear.

585
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,920
So let's trust the Spirit to do his work.

586
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,640
And it was remarkable over time actually how many children began to engage with that.

587
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,840
So that worked well for children in the church.

588
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:13,840
Reasonably well.

589
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:14,840
It wasn't perfect.

590
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,240
Just two observations on that.

591
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,640
We didn't have any children in the church with learning difficulties.

592
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:28,120
I'm now in a church where we've got 40 children, eight of whom have quite significant learning

593
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:29,920
difficulties.

594
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,200
And I'm not quite sure how that would work out.

595
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:37,440
Yes, that would be a whole different challenge that I didn't think through at the time because

596
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:38,440
I didn't need to.

597
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,260
And maybe that was remiss of me, but I didn't need to.

598
00:32:41,260 --> 00:32:46,840
But the biggest challenge for us really was that people who came looking with a view,

599
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,320
not preaching with a view, this is kind of attending with a view.

600
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:54,200
You know, the people who turn up on Sunday morning checking you out, who had children,

601
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:59,080
already believers, hardly ever stayed.

602
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,960
Because they said what the parents in the church had also said, our kids won't do this.

603
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,960
But I had no relational capital with them to say, just give it a go, which I did have

604
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:10,480
with people in the church.

605
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,920
So they would say, our kids can't cope with this.

606
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,560
And sadness of sadness is they would then go to the pretty, wooly evangelical church

607
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,840
down the road, where I don't think actually they did as well.

608
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,240
Now, let's get to the chase on this one.

609
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:32,640
Do you think parents in the West, parents in a country like this one, have got some

610
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:37,680
views of what's good and right for their children and what their children will cope with that

611
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:42,680
frankly comes more from the culture than from the gospel and Christian life in that kind

612
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:43,680
of area?

613
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,520
Because I think that's what you're driving at.

614
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,200
Yeah, I completely agree.

615
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:48,200
Go on, talk.

616
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:49,200
For sure.

617
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,060
And same experience.

618
00:33:51,060 --> 00:33:58,400
So one dad said to me, two young kids, their eldest is seven, I think, and this is just

619
00:33:58,400 --> 00:33:59,400
not going to work.

620
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,580
They're not going to be able to concentrate.

621
00:34:02,580 --> 00:34:11,600
Six months on having done a trial, I got sent to seven year old son's notes from the sermon

622
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,280
and just made me want to wait because it's a wonderful moment, isn't it?

623
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,640
Just you suddenly realize what you had expected from your child.

624
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,040
How much more can they take on board?

625
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,720
And so week one of the trial was a mess.

626
00:34:27,720 --> 00:34:28,920
It was tricky.

627
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:33,840
And you notice all the parents move to the back corner because they wanted to play it

628
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,880
safe and actually trying to encourage them out of the back corner.

629
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:44,040
So actually your kids will be able to engage far better at the front, be bold, jump right

630
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:45,040
in.

631
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:50,160
And when they've made that move, the kids really have, I mean, we have, we have craft,

632
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:54,880
we've got a craft team, we put together a craft, ties in with every sermon.

633
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,480
But not every family use the craft because not every kid wants to use the craft.

634
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,560
Some just want to sit and engage.

635
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:06,080
And we do 20 minute sermons and we actually break those up into two halves with a song

636
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:11,920
in between, which I think helps everyone, but it definitely helps the kids.

637
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:13,800
But there inevitably there is noise.

638
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,400
A room with kids is noisier than a room without kids.

639
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,440
And it's interesting in other cultures, that's fine.

640
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:28,440
So I came back to East London, a church that was 50% non-white, probably more actually,

641
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,840
65 nationalities.

642
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:38,840
It felt normal to have kids running around, you know, making noise like in normal families.

643
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,600
And it's actually interesting in those other cultures, very often children in that sort

644
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,080
of setting call other adults, auntie and uncle.

645
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:52,160
There's more sense of family and what you're prepared to put up with as a family.

646
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:59,000
So I think there is something about we can be quite tight as sort of white Brits sometimes

647
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,040
and we need to loosen up a bit.

648
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:09,640
But I mean, have any adults said to you, I've got nothing against kids, I love kids, I wanted

649
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:10,680
to be part of the church.

650
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:17,000
The brute fact is I take in less of the sermon because there are kids making noise than I

651
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:18,000
used to.

652
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,000
Do you think that's happening?

653
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,000
Yes.

654
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,000
So what do you feel about that?

655
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,000
How do you respond?

656
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:31,000
Well, there's a conversation with the individual, I don't know, where are you sitting in a church,

657
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,560
because again, for them, the further forward they're sitting, the more connected they are.

658
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,160
And I don't know, it's true for every church, we fill up from the back.

659
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,640
It's so late, come on, let's get shown to the front.

660
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:40,640
No, it's only you.

661
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,720
There is no other church in the world where that happens.

662
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:49,280
For when you look at the whole, when you look at the body and the building up of the body,

663
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:55,280
there's a bigger thing going on on Sunday morning than simply one adult struggling.

664
00:36:55,280 --> 00:37:01,240
And I remember one Sunday, you came to me, you'd sat right back in the far corner where

665
00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:04,920
a lot of the noise tends to congregate.

666
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:06,760
And you said, it was noisy.

667
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,080
But if I wanted to concentrate, I could concentrate.

668
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:14,400
I think, I mean, I know people, dear friends of mine have really wrestled with this and

669
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:15,400
struggled with it.

670
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:21,760
I think I found myself as someone sitting, receiving the word saying to myself, does

671
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:27,480
the noise around me mean there will be things in the sermon I don't quite take in the way

672
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,120
I would have done if this had been silent?

673
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,760
The answer is yes.

674
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:38,000
But it's good preaching we hear, where there's a clear message that's repeated and comes

675
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,240
at us in a number of different ways.

676
00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:41,280
That's just good oral communication.

677
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,680
So however much noise there is, can I take in the core message being preached?

678
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:45,680
Of course I can.

679
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:50,440
Well, have we got to even just, I just, I want to push that a little bit because I wonder

680
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,160
if there's something even a bit deeper.

681
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,040
So what is more valuable?

682
00:37:55,040 --> 00:38:04,960
Is it you, Tim, an individual, Dr. Ward, getting, let's say 80% of the sermon.

683
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:12,160
Is that more valuable than you sitting next to little Timmy and both of you getting 50%?

684
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:18,320
Well, my theology is the latter is more valuable because of the togetherness of church.

685
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:23,320
And I think the problem is, and this is true of lots of areas of church life, we sometimes

686
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:31,480
as leaders don't do a very good job of articulating and applying well and consistently our theological

687
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,840
convictions about church and church life.

688
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:43,280
We settle into what's easiest, what's most pragmatic, what's most settled historically.

689
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,400
And I think that's just a big challenge in lots of areas of church.

690
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:51,560
Are we just butting up here again in yet another area against the rank individualism of Western

691
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:56,400
culture that we often don't challenge because the gospel challenges it massively.

692
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:57,920
There is individualism of the gospel.

693
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,920
Each person has to confess the Lord Jesus in order to be, yes, of course, but there's

694
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:08,920
a lot of cultural, we go further than that and we dress it up in a kind of respectability.

695
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:10,640
So I can't concentrate on the sermon.

696
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,720
That sounds quite a godly thing.

697
00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:14,000
I really want to listen to the sermon.

698
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,520
I really want to concentrate on what's being said.

699
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:23,160
But that is a kind of, if that is being set up against someone saying, well, you know,

700
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,000
at least you're learning with someone else who's younger.

701
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:31,440
And we are basically dressing up individualism as a, with a kind of respectability.

702
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,880
So I think there's something in there.

703
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:38,280
The other thing it's done is forced to rethink on preaching.

704
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:45,940
I think we have, we work harder on our sermons now to make sure what we are trying to say

705
00:39:45,940 --> 00:39:48,480
is crystal clear.

706
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:55,840
And you know, a lot of the padding, the Wednesday afternoon padding goes to get to a Friday

707
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,080
afternoon clarity.

708
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,040
And it's been interesting seeing, you know, bits where I'm putting it in the sermon thinking

709
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,000
of this will help communicate it to the kids.

710
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,600
Those are the bits the adults are coming out and saying that really landed it for me.

711
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:09,840
And they take it away.

712
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:14,520
And well, I've said as someone who teaches preaching, whenever I see your students give

713
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:20,040
me guidance on teaching teenagers well, I just look at them and think, I just think

714
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,480
that's good guidance on teaching anybody well.

715
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:31,800
But if people largely teach pliant adults who have learned to sit there and look interested

716
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:37,760
when they're bored or confused, we kid ourselves that we're communicating well because everybody's

717
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:38,760
quiet and looks like that.

718
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,520
No, they're not understanding or they're bored or both.

719
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:48,120
Yeah, there's a lot of advice on communicating well to kids is actually just how can you

720
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:49,120
get well to everybody?

721
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:50,120
There are other helps, aren't there?

722
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,840
So Sophie Killingly has written, she's an artist.

723
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,160
She's written a book or written a book.

724
00:40:55,160 --> 00:41:00,120
She's drawn a book for the Good Book Company, which is just templates for kids sermon outlines

725
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,240
and little diary entries, which you can buy.

726
00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:05,640
And then, you know, so you don't actually have to prepare these things yourself now.

727
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,320
They can always be pre prepared.

728
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,360
So there are resources around one little extra bit of our puzzle at Yale, Tim, which may

729
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:16,960
be worth saying is we dropped our midweek Bible study in small groups because we said

730
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,320
what we're doing is we're basically doing the Bible study on Sunday morning, the discipleship

731
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:21,320
study.

732
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,000
So what we did midweek is we made it a midweek.

733
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,480
We didn't do our after lunch prayer meeting that didn't ever get off the ground.

734
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:34,280
So we instead we had midweek small groups, which were prayer meetings.

735
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:41,780
And what we did in those three weeks out of four was we prayed in the sermon.

736
00:41:41,780 --> 00:41:44,680
And actually, that was a great release for us because we didn't have enough we didn't

737
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:49,680
have enough gifted small group leaders who could really lead a good Bible study.

738
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,080
And so many pastors tell their heads.

739
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:53,080
Indeed.

740
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,480
And we said, well, actually, you're doing more.

741
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,680
You've got more content if you're going to measure it in content.

742
00:41:58,680 --> 00:41:59,680
We didn't want to do that.

743
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,480
But if you're going to measure it in content by doing this 45 minutes on a Sunday and then

744
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:07,520
having a sermon, you're getting more content now than you have before.

745
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,440
Let's meet midweek to encourage one another and to pray it in and to say, well, how's

746
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:12,440
that going to affect you?

747
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,680
Let me pray for you and do it that way.

748
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:17,000
That's very interesting.

749
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,680
Another reflection, Tim, just this is confession of an idiotic pastor, really.

750
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,800
But all age services, separate podcast.

751
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:25,680
Coming soon.

752
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:31,920
And you know, my my concept of always an all age service week, take a big theological

753
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:36,200
truth, try and communicate that truth with a big visual aid.

754
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,380
I was never preaching to the children.

755
00:42:39,380 --> 00:42:42,040
And there was a moment, you know, we made this change.

756
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:46,480
And I looked at one Sunday and I suddenly realized I'm pastoring the young people in

757
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:48,920
this church for the first time.

758
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,520
And that's what God's called me to do.

759
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:58,200
Because you've taught the same core Bible material or theology and or theological truth

760
00:42:58,200 --> 00:42:59,680
to everybody.

761
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,840
And now it's application and now children.

762
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:02,840
Here's an application to you.

763
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:03,840
What does this mean?

764
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:04,840
Your lives.

765
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:05,840
Now I'm going to talk to those who are retired.

766
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:06,840
Exactly.

767
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:07,840
Yeah.

768
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:09,680
You're now pastoring everybody in front of everybody.

769
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:15,200
So the kids get to hear how the pastor pastors the older people and knows how to pray for

770
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:16,200
them.

771
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,160
And I'm just curious how very often if you ask people really honestly, which part of

772
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:20,160
the service do you most enjoy?

773
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:21,160
Classic evangelical British service.

774
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:25,400
They all love the children's talk most of all.

775
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:30,920
So actually, often that's because the pastor is speaking more simply and more clearly.

776
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,760
So actually, there's something in that if you can make your whole sermon, not a children's

777
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:40,360
talk, but if you can communicate simply and clearly and winsomely, actually you will be

778
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,640
able to you will find speak to the whole church.

779
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:45,640
This has been fascinating.

780
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:46,640
I've been talking for a long time.

781
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:47,640
Just a clock down here.

782
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:48,640
We need to wrap up in a few minutes.

783
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,400
The thing I mean, one of the things that's really struck me as we've been talking about

784
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:57,640
this now and as we were chatting about it before we before we hit record is how I mean,

785
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:02,200
in my mind, what we're going to talk about is quote, adult Sunday school, get the adults

786
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:08,920
together for additional teaching and time together relating together.

787
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:13,800
But thinking about that has led us to let's think about children in quote, the service

788
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:21,360
all the way through and actually how I wonder if a sense that you just it's never going

789
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:26,840
to work having the kids in is one of the things that militates moving to against moving towards

790
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:28,880
adult Sunday school.

791
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,920
But you you've both bitten the bullet on that one.

792
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:32,920
Yeah.

793
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:36,920
Although after I left, they have reverted back to the old model.

794
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:44,040
So yeah, I think the spring is very tightly formed.

795
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:45,040
Okay.

796
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:46,640
And you can pull on it.

797
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:52,400
And I think you need to have some longevity and commitment to make it work.

798
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:57,360
So it's really encouraging to me to hear exactly what you're doing and making it work.

799
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:04,080
I don't think I want people listening to underestimate the size of the task.

800
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:09,400
You you have a national ministry, you oversee you get a national outlook.

801
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:11,840
Oh, are we real outliers here?

802
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:12,840
Yeah.

803
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:13,840
Okay.

804
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,480
I mean, there'll be other churches that do it, but not many.

805
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:23,000
And especially larger churches, sometimes you'll get small churches who have a more

806
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:28,720
community group model of meeting together, who don't have resources or the size and actually

807
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:33,840
all the theological convictions to when they're starting from scratch, split up in that traditional

808
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:34,840
way.

809
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:39,480
But in terms of established churches, you really are outliers.

810
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,520
But I that's not a reason for not doing something.

811
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,960
And it's it's good to hear it's good to hear that it's making progress really.

812
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:48,640
I find that really heartening.

813
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,280
To church council members who really didn't like the idea.

814
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:53,280
I mean, they were godly about it.

815
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:54,280
We're happy to go.

816
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:55,280
Yeah.

817
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,160
The majority were were in favour.

818
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:03,400
Six months in after the trial came to me and said, I get it.

819
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:04,400
I really got it.

820
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:05,400
That's good news.

821
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,760
And we have a brunch once every seven weeks.

822
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:11,880
And in that crossover time.

823
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,720
And it's just glorious because we really do know each other.

824
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:16,120
I mean, that's been such a battle.

825
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:17,520
Church of 350 on the Sunday.

826
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,400
Well, it's bigger church than that.

827
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:21,400
If everyone turned up.

828
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:22,640
True for everyone.

829
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,120
But we really do know each other better.

830
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:30,680
Young and old and the moment where Sunday evenings in the summer, we've got we sort

831
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,480
of have Bible studies in the evening in place of evening service.

832
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:39,040
And last Sunday, there were three young people came along.

833
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:40,640
They're sitting in the groups.

834
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:41,640
They're contributing alongside.

835
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,240
So you've got an 80 year old sitting alongside an eight year old.

836
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:46,080
And that's just become normal in church life.

837
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,200
So it has achieved what you set out to achieve.

838
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:49,200
We're getting great.

839
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:50,880
That's great to hear.

840
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:51,880
Final question for each of you.

841
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:57,680
Of course, the the way this will look, it's going to look different in different churches.

842
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,920
I'm glad we had sort of two really quite different models talked about here.

843
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:05,080
There's going to be no one size fits all.

844
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:10,880
If someone listening to this was thinking, yeah, I would like to start thinking through

845
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:16,360
and leading my people in direction as to as to how this might look for us in our place.

846
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,120
I'm just picking up a cop foster model.

847
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,040
It's not going to be sensible.

848
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:26,940
What would be your advice as to the key things that that church leader ought to start talking

849
00:47:26,940 --> 00:47:31,920
about with people and teaching them on that will just set the foundations in place so

850
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:36,480
that the church family can think about these things well?

851
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:40,280
Can I be cheeky and answer a slightly different question, please?

852
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,600
What question should I have asked?

853
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,080
Well, a pastor's calling is to serve his flock.

854
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:47,720
OK.

855
00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:52,760
And we have deep theological convictions about what serves our flock best.

856
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:53,760
Yeah.

857
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:59,320
But they do need to always be contextualized to the people that God has given us to serve

858
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:03,800
and love and care for and protect and guard.

859
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,600
So I think I was too bullish.

860
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:08,600
OK.

861
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:14,840
I'm sort of a young Turk with very strong theological convictions.

862
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:20,280
And I think I should have gone about what I did a different way that would have been

863
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:23,400
perhaps more loving and caring of the flock.

864
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:24,400
And that would have been?

865
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:30,840
I just think that would have been a slower process, more explanation perhaps.

866
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:35,200
I've not really reflected on a huge amount, but I think we have to be careful to remember

867
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:40,000
that our key calling is not to drive our theological convictions through.

868
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:41,000
Yeah.

869
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,400
But our key calling is to love and care and serve for the flock.

870
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,720
So if the flock are not going to be able to cope with it, you have to rethink a little

871
00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:49,720
bit.

872
00:48:49,720 --> 00:48:50,720
Yeah.

873
00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:51,720
So it's not pragmatism.

874
00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:52,720
Yeah, sure.

875
00:48:52,720 --> 00:48:57,920
I'm not very keen on the concept of pragmatism in ministry, but I think it's about being

876
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:03,720
a pastor and having the interests of the flock at your heart.

877
00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:07,680
So I think actually that does answer your question in a sense, which is how do you go

878
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:13,120
about any change in church life or actually making church what you think it ought to be

879
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:14,320
as a gathering?

880
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:19,200
You have to think what is best going to serve those that the Lord is entrusted into my care?

881
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,280
How am I going to love them and care for them and build them and keep them and protect them

882
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:25,440
under the great chief shepherd?

883
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:26,440
That's really helpful.

884
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:30,560
I guess every pastor would genuinely say, I have on my heart to serve the people.

885
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:37,440
But I think what I'm rightly hearing from you is sometimes I won't know what will serve

886
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,960
them best and they will help me understand what will serve them best.

887
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:41,960
That's right.

888
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:42,960
Yeah, that's really helpful.

889
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,360
Thank you, John, for you.

890
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:49,760
I was thinking we preach through 1 Corinthians, which I think gave us a help give a bigger

891
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:57,600
view of church, what church is and to preach big church and to fight against little church

892
00:49:57,600 --> 00:49:59,040
really helps.

893
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,120
And then it's the openness to conversations.

894
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:05,880
I mean, the trial was a trial and making sure that's a genuine trial rather than I'm just

895
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:09,040
going to tell you it's a trial for six months.

896
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:12,760
And we worked hard to try and listen to everyone.

897
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:19,400
We did what we called a big visit, so every household on the church database was visited,

898
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,920
not just by me, by a team of about 25 people.

899
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:29,480
And that was just a chance to make sure voices really were heard, because we believe that's

900
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:30,480
what church is.

901
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:34,440
It shouldn't just be this is what we're going to do now.

902
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:38,920
Here's a bigger picture of church and what might that look like for us together moving

903
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:39,920
forwards.

904
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,200
And let God surprise you, because he has surprised me.

905
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:48,000
I was terrified about this, but it has been wonderful.

906
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:49,000
That's great.

907
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:50,560
Thank you so much, John.

908
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:52,480
Adrian, really grateful for your time.

909
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:53,480
Thanks for having me.

910
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:54,480
Taking time out of busy lives of ministry.

911
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:55,480
Wonderful.

912
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:56,480
Great to be here.

913
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:00,600
We trust that this episode of Deep Roots has been a real blessing to you as you think through

914
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:04,800
your own leadership where God has placed you or if you're a member of the church, how you

915
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:10,920
can be a fruitful and godly member of your own church family in your own particular place.

916
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:12,440
Do check out our back catalogue.

917
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,840
We're building up quite a list now of previous Deep Roots episodes.

918
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:18,840
If you've missed some, you may well find some there that are a blessing to you.

919
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:23,520
We cover a whole variety of topics in theology and ministry.

920
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,640
We've got an exciting spreadsheet building of topics that we're thinking about and going

921
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:29,480
to be recording on soon.

922
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:31,320
So look out for our next one.

923
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:34,960
We'll see you again soon.