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Hi everyone, welcome to the Oak Hill podcast, Deep Roots, conversations about theology and ministry.

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We're so glad to have you with us.

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My name is Eric. I'm one of the lecturers here at Oak Hill.

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And I'm Tim Ward, one of the other lecturers here, and we're delighted to have with us a third lecturer from Oak Hill.

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Rob Scott is one of our visiting lecturers.

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So Rob comes in to teach one particular module on Islam.

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Rob, tell us a little bit about your life in your ministry when you're not here teaching on Islam.

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Well, thanks for the invitation to be here.

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So I grew up in sunny South End, on sea, the place to be.

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I was at school actually with Dan Strange, who used to be here.

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We were both kind of Christian at the time.

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I remember him going off to university to study theology and thinking, well, he's not going to be a Christian at the end of that.

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And he saw me going off to university and thought, well, Rob was never a Christian anyway.

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And then we met up a little bit later, which is good.

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So growing up in South End, and I think Dan would say that our school was pretty racist.

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There were very few people from an ethnic minority.

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And many of us, including myself, were casually, if not explicitly outrightly racist, even though I would call myself a Christian, was brought up in a Christian family.

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I was taught generosity and hospitality and kindness by my parents, by their example.

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The church I grew up in was very community focused and wanted to reach the community and tell them about Jesus.

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But there wasn't much more to its witness at the time in terms of grounding and faith and biblical teaching.

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Went to university to study social anthropology, which I knew nothing about before I got there.

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But that opened my eyes to a big world of people who are different from us,

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alongside being part of a good Bible teaching church that grounded that difference in the Bible and that God loves all different kinds of people.

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And then did a master's in development studies that wanted to kind of put that social anthropology to good use,

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to put into practice and ended up going to Bangladesh as part of that to work on an NGO and came back and got married.

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And we thought, my wife's a doctor, we could go to somewhere like Bangladesh with our skills to tell people about Jesus in some way.

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And we spoke to kind of the equivalent of a missions pastor at our church, St. Helens Bishop's going in the city.

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And he said, well, why don't you get stuck in amongst Bangladeshi people in this country,

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largely in Tamil at the time, to see if you're any good as preparation for going.

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And we're still here, which suggests we're still needing preparation or we're not very good.

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Why get stuck in amongst Bangladeshis? Well, partly because that's where I went.

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And that's just the community that we're in.

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So I can't think there's a particular word from the Lord that said this, but these are the people, these are our neighbours.

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And through reacting, interrelating, communicating with them, just got more and more into wanting them to know about Jesus and trying to understand them and how best to do that.

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Which is then a little bit of experience, which is the basis for the Oak Hill course I teach once a semester.

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Wonderful. A little bit of experience. Great. Wonderful to have all this experience here.

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So, Rob, as a way into this fascinating and difficult topic, could you begin by telling us the different kinds of Muslim people that we will meet in the UK,

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all the way from a recent asylum seeker to a third or fourth generation Muslim?

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I think it's really helpful as much as possible, as you don't know it, to use Muslim as an adjective.

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So remember, they are Muslim people, so people made in God's image, therefore worthy of respect and honour and yet fallen and so in need of Jesus.

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But that also means that they are different from one another. They are individual people.

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There are maybe 1.6 billion Muslim people across the world. They are all a little bit different.

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And so as much as we do want to generalise to understand, and part of my course does generalise, we also need to remember that everyone is different and to treat people as individuals.

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That just because I say X about a particular brand of Islamic theology doesn't actually mean that every Muslim might go along with that.

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So I think the different kinds of Muslim people that we meet are as many as our own individuals.

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That said, there are certain kinds of brands, as we might have within Christian churches as well.

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So you have people that are Muslim because that's how they just grew up.

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It's hard to say they're nominal because they don't just go to mosque at Christmas or Easter.

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They don't just go to mosque once a year.

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They'll probably do Ramadan, which fasting 30 days between dawn and dusk is hard work.

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OK, so already there is a kind of difference between what you might call Christian nominalism and Muslim nominalism.

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I think so. I think even for some, I think most people who are certainly in our experience in the community, most people will fast in some way.

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I don't think you'll expect any Christian nominal person that would go to a wedding, go to Christmas and call themselves Christian to do that kind of thing.

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Of course, there are, in quotes, bad Muslims, just like there are bad Christians who would never be accepted by their community as actually being Muslim.

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But that's not kind of a nominal category.

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So I think most Muslim people that certainly we know in Tower Hamlets are pretty much practicing and many would look down.

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I can't answer your second point. What do they think of living here?

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Many would look down on the West generally.

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So, for example, my wife was reading the Bible with one friend, a lady, and they were reading through Luke's Gospel and they got to the Jesus Parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector.

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And it's obviously the tax collector who goes home justified.

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But my wife's friend said, just like the Pharisee, but I'm not like other people because she's looking around the West and she sees the immorality out there.

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She sees a weak church.

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She sees all kinds of things that she would say is wrong.

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And I am not like that. I am better than that morally, righteously.

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So you Christians who come at me with this message of righteousness, well, actually, you're talking rubbish.

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I just look at the West.

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To step back, some Muslim people love being here, have chosen to be here, might be because of persecution in the home country for religious reasons or political reasons.

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They might find it very hard being here because we're not that welcoming, actually, of immigrants, but they want to embrace it.

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Other friends who are second, third generation love being here because of the genuine freedom they have to practice their religion that they might not have in other countries.

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And say, actually, Britain is more Islamic than other countries because of that, that I can be a better Muslim here than I can elsewhere.

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And they are wanting to promote Islam and show that Islam works.

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Then you have some people who would still want to overthrow the West for political reasons.

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So go beyond the idea that Islamic law is the best law, we must impose it.

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Now that's a minority.

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But there are some still that go along with that.

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Certainly, being involved in this kind of ministry probably since late 90s, early noughties, where people were being more radicalized through universities.

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And that was, you'd see that on the streets in Tower Hamlets, we had posters stuck on bus stops, basically condemning all kinds of Western values and saying Muslims are going to come and take over.

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And that's what they're promoting.

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And that caused a lot of fear within all kinds of people, which isn't very helpful at all.

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So a range of people. So I think talk to the person to find out what the actual Muslim person in front of you believes, what they are like, and then go from there.

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It's important not to make any assumptions with the whole spectrum of people from asylum seekers to a third generation 15 year old Muslim kid who loves the UK.

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I think that's right.

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And I think in the past, we're still currently actually, I think the church has been reasonably good at welcoming the first generation at times and putting on things like English classes, mother and toddler groups and that kind of thing.

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But we've been pretty rubbish at reaching the second, third, fourth generation, established community members who are counselors, who are doctors, who are engineers, who are taxi drivers, but don't need, in inverted commas, the church's help because they're well established already.

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Interesting, interesting.

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Rob, you've got great experience of this.

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What kinds of things do you see happening in people who are Muslim when they hear the Christian gospel?

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I think, again, it would depend on the kind of person.

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So for one man I can think of, he grew up in Egypt.

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He came to this country via the land route and Europe and then boats and all kinds of mess in between.

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And the Christian gospel was a joy to him because he'd heard something of Jesus in the Koran and wants to know more.

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He saw something true about Jesus in the Koran.

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There's lots of falsehoods there, but there was something that made him want to know more.

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And so I want to know more.

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And so when he heard, he did.

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For other people, kind of opposite end of things, anything Christian comes with a baggage of crusader, Ness, Western imperialism,

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invading of lands, of grabbing oil, all that kind of thing.

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So remember when we were in Bangladesh for a brief time and we're told don't use the word Christian because some people just hear it so badly.

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Doesn't mean you deny your faith, but the actual word is so misunderstood.

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And that can be true for the baggage.

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Think, too, of others that kind of talk about Jesus teaching, love your neighbor, love your enemy.

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And some really like that and are really challenged by that.

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I don't see that in my religion, but others would say, hang on a minute.

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You're not like that. Your country is not like that.

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We just see hypocrisy going on.

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So I think sometimes there's a bite and then sometimes there's a real kind of rejection for the same things.

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Yeah. That takes us into really interesting territory because we were before we hit record on this, we were chatting, weren't we?

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And you were talking about wanting to make sure that we are explicit, that the gospel critiques our own culture.

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And, you know, all of us are going to fuse the gospel with our culture or the bits of our culture that we like and are nice to us and just fuse that struggle to separate them.

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I mean, from your experience, can you reflect on that a bit about what blind spots Christians in the UK may have trying to reach Muslims in the UK with the gospel?

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I think in many ways, going to another country or speaking to a foreign person in their country or here is very helpful because they will say things that might make you more patriotic and more British, if you are British, than you might otherwise have been.

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I think as soon as someone else criticizes me and my background, I fight for it.

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But I can criticize it myself, but as soon as somebody else does.

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Eric, you're British, now, are you feeling this?

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Deeply in my bones, but I'll be very restrained about it because I'm very British.

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Well, I just won't say anything about it.

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Just join the queue.

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Those education classes at the Foreign Office have really paid off, haven't they?

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Sorry, Rob, keep going.

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So, for example, I think because I'm British, my word is my bond.

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We speak truth.

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You can trust me.

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Go to Bangladesh and speak to people there and they say you cannot trust a British person.

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We have been betrayed by British broken promises since you guys invaded in whatever century it was.

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East India Company and then the British Raj and so on.

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We cannot trust you.

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We think Winston Churchill is a great guy.

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They think he caused the Bengal famine in 1942 because of his Second World War policies and tens and hundreds of thousands of people died.

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And so having a five pound note with Churchill on the back is a real problem for many people.

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So there's those kinds of things going on.

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And I think we can hold to what is our heritage, what is our past, what is our identity,

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rather than the gospel and using the gospel to critique where I'm from, even though there is a Christian heritage to Britain.

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And we should accept that.

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But there's lots that's wrong and hypocritical.

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And we need to show that to people to show that we are wanting to follow God more than our culture and society.

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And these things are going to come.

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I mean, these are live issues, aren't they?

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For some people, what you should absolutely do is look back at your own history and say there were some real problems for other people.

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No, no, no, no.

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I might get labeled woke and no, no.

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Churchill was a great guy.

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And these things are deep in us and our convictions on these.

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What's your thinking around how a Christian just handles these things well when what you most want to do is not defend your country or somebody from the past, but convey Jesus or win an argument or something?

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I mean, particularly with Muslim people, to kind of put them in quotes, you want to win the debate, don't you?

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You want to be the victorious person to show how great Christ is or maybe how great you are.

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Is that going on?

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So one thing that we tried to do, for a number of years, we ran what we called Meetings for Better Understanding.

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Not a debate where you seek to win, but nor an interfaith group hug where you all agree.

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I would share the platform with a Muslim speaker.

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We would speak, say, on God of the Bible, God of the Quran, who is Jesus?

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What does it mean to bring up children in a secular society?

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So things that might be ethical, things that might be theological.

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I'd speak for 20 minutes.

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They'd speak for 20 minutes on what we thought of as our truth rather than critical.

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And then we would have questions which would tease out differences.

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And it was just interesting that people tended to listen rather than just come with the standard objections to Christianity, which was good.

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But as part of those talks, I'd always try to do, I think what Tim Keller does is did was to show how grace undercuts the religious and the irreligious.

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It challenges both the prodigal and the elder brother.

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It challenges the secular Westerner and the Muslim person.

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So to show that I wasn't as tied to my culture as people might think and to be critical, to critique my culture as much as I might want to critique Islam by the truth.

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So I was presenting from the Bible.

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Sure.

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Somewhat piggybacking on Tim's last question.

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Are there good things to remember if you're a Christian who's made a Muslim friend and is speaking with them about matters of faith?

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Are there good things to remember to avoid saying good ways to phrase things, things to avoid landmines not to step on, just as some rules of thumb and guidance for?

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Well, I think you can just ask.

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I would say we're different in some way. Yes, we share a common humanity, but we're different.

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We might have different upbringings, different religion, different family.

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Please tell me if I say things that's upset you, because I won't know.

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And I think it's just helpful to be honest.

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And you'd hope that they would do the same, because similarly, there's various things that people say that I think are offensive to me, but they don't know unless I say.

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So I think that's a good thing.

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I think just getting to know somebody and not seeing them as a target or simply a Muslim.

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There's more they are a person made in God's image, worthy of respect, full and need to hear about Jesus.

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And we should get to just to know people at a kind of a human level.

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Religion is part of that. Find out about their religion.

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What does it mean for them to be a Muslim?

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Do they enjoy being Muslim? What's the favourite part of the Quran?

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Ask that. What's your favourite bit of the Bible?

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You'd hope you can can share that.

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I think be interested, as you would be in anybody, really.

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I think in terms of other kinds of things, hospitality is great.

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Often we have found, though, that people are quite hesitant to come to our home because they fear what they might see or experience, because sadly of what they've been taught often.

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So one Muslim person was particularly unpleasant.

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And I've talked to Muslim friends about him and they recognise him as unpleasant.

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So please don't say this is all Muslim people.

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But so he said, I will not come to your house because you will have pornography on the walls and you will serve me pig and beer.

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What are you talking about? But that's his stereotype.

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And that does seep in in some ways that people they are very fearful of being defiled, of being contaminated in some way by by coming into our homes.

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So often we actually spending more time in their homes and enjoying their hospitality, which isn't necessarily a bad thing,

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because actually you're letting people serve you and showing that I'm not the person with all the power in a way.

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So I think receiving hospitality is as good as offering it.

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If you should offer it, don't offer beer, don't offer pig.

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Just first two steps.

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That's really helpful. Actually, just as you're talking, here's a question that occurred just over your years of wanting to befriend and get to know Muslim folks so you can talk to them about Jesus.

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Other particular things that they have said about your life and your lifestyle in the West,

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where you thought, you know, they are pointing out a worldliness about me and about Christians that we ought to repent of.

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And frankly, our culture has blinded us to it.

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I think particularly when it comes to family.

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So. Largely non-Western cultures are more corporate and more corporate thinking than we are, maybe more biblical in terms of thinking in corporate type ways.

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And that's true for most Muslim families that we know.

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And it's not just nuclear family, it's extended families thinking about your parents and your cousins and your uncles.

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Now, certainly in Tower Hamlets, that often means that people don't have friends.

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They have family, which is interesting.

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I remember hearing one sermon in the mosque where they were very down on friendship.

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Because friends can take you away from Islam, but your family can't put your family first.

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So that's kind of a danger there.

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But in terms of family, I think absolutely the way that parents are looked after within the home.

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And yes, that leads to overcrowding and all kinds of things that might be really hard for children to do homework while

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there are grandparents around who often have Alzheimer's because older people do.

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But they are looking after them rather than putting them in a nursing home.

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Now, putting a grandparent in a nursing home isn't necessarily a bad thing,

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but they are willing to care for their parents in a different way and they want to offer their care.

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My wife's a GP and on home visits, she would often see children caring for their parents,

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their elderly parents in ways that we just don't do.

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And that is a challenge.

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Now, it does mean that those children, grown up children, can't do as much outside the home,

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but that's a cost they're willing to bear.

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And that is a challenge to us, I think.

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I think just the whole corporate nature of their culture can be a challenge to us.

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We think we do church family well, and I think we do do it well compared to lots of dysfunctionality in families in our culture.

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But when family is 24-7, for most Muslim people, for us just to do it on a Sunday, maybe a home group, maybe a lunch, it's not much.

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Yeah, I'm so glad you're in my church family. I'll see you next Sunday.

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It's that kind of thing, exactly.

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So Rob, when you talk with Muslim people, what are the most common theological objections you hear as to why Christianity simply can't be true?

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So I think there are probably four that every Muslim person that I've spoken to has come out with at some point,

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and they might ask them in a debating type way, I might just genuinely have heard this,

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how can you believe this, you seem a sensible person. We're both God-fearers, but actually...

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So Jesus is not divine or not son of God. Jesus didn't die on a cross. The Trinity is just wrong.

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Now, the Quran teaches those things, that Jesus didn't die, that he's not son of God and the Trinity is wrong.

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Obviously, the Bible teaches those things are true.

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And so Muslim people generally say that Bible has been changed or corrupted because it shouldn't teach those things.

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That that isn't actually what the Quran says.

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I think the Quran is clear that there is guidance and light within what was previously written and it hasn't been changed.

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So I think that does set up a problem. But it's interesting, isn't it?

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So those four things have got nothing actually to do with Islam.

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So you don't need to know anything about Islam to talk to Muslim people about Jesus.

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You need to know your faith and why he is fully man, fully God, why the Trinity is a wonderful truth,

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why he had to die and rise again and why we can trust the Bible.

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Quick plug, that's why the smoke-heal course is back in the day.

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That's really helped me with these kind of questions.

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Yes, wonderful. And do you find it's a matter of going through reading a Bible with a Muslim friend or talking with them?

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Or how would you approach that?

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All the time we're longing for anybody, but Muslim people particularly, to open up the Bible with us.

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So much the time it's just conversation, answering objections and asking questions back.

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A lot of time just kind of using scripture for memory rather than having it actually open.

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But we'd love Muslim people to open up the word, to actually be confronted and comforted by what's really there.

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But that is a hard step for most Muslim people.

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It's really easy having a religious conversation, much easier when you're average atheist.

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They want to share their faith, we want to share ours.

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It's a great thing to do.

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But the next step of opening the Bible seems to be a really hard one because we've got the Quran.

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Why do we need another book?

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It's superseded at least and probably your book's been changed anyway, so we definitely don't need it.

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And then there's possible fear if this should be true, what are the implications for me and for my family?

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Say for example, one older guy that we've got to know pretty well over the last number of years,

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a friend has been on and off reading the Bible with him.

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He's come to many of our Christian meetings in Silesian and English.

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And he's basically saying, I cannot believe this because of what will happen to me.

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Now, that might be a real excuse or it might just be a smoke screen.

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But it needs kind of pushing because that's his fear.

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But it's good to remember that when we talk with our Muslim friends about following Jesus,

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we're asking a lot of them.

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It's appropriate that we do that, but it's not a theoretical issue for them.

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No, that's right.

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Well, clearly, a lot of Christian people are wanting to reach Muslim people with the gospel.

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And you get to sort of different theories and ideas and different approaches that I guess people tuning into this will have encountered,

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maybe even have strong views on.

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Just tell us a bit about that spectrum of approaches and how you thought that through.

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It is interesting actually on that, that certainly are more Christians and more churches wanting to reach, which is great.

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And it suggests that people are getting over some of their fear and loathing you hope towards Muslim people

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and having a faith in a loving God that can bring them to know him.

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I think to stereotype, a kind of a broad brush and all the kind of generalisations.

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Some people want to take a grace approach of loving Muslim people, being based on relationship, sharing Jesus, not particularly being negative.

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The other extreme might be those that are polemical, that want to fight and debate and ask critical questions of Islam because it's all totally wrong.

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Now, obviously, those are stereotypes.

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No one is completely like that.

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But there is a danger that you can fall to one or either of those extremes when we do need grace and truth.

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I think we do need to say hard things at times as well as just loving things and about Jesus and be practically loving to Muslim people.

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In the course that I teach, we try and recognise there are a range of approaches.

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And as long as you're being faithful to scripture, that's the important thing.

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And as there are 1.6 billion Muslim people, there are lots of different people and a different approach will be needed, probably.

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But be faithful in that.

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Most missionaries, particularly amongst Muslim people, are looking for the silver bullet to solve all their problems, to start a people movement to Christ kind of thing.

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I don't think that is the case.

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But what I try to do, which may not be a silver bullet, is just simply open the Bible with people.

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And I think it would depend on the person and their responses, whether I begin with the Gospel or whether I begin with Genesis.

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We so want to talk about Jesus, but because there's a lot of baggage about Jesus, people don't get him if you go straight to the Gospel.

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You might need to go to Genesis, first of all.

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But if people don't have baggage, great, read the Gospel with them.

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So if someone has a Muslim friend and the conversations are going well, and it's going beyond occasional conversations about theology,

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and their Muslim friend might be interested in showing up at church during the week at some point,

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what are some things churches can do to welcome that Muslim friend well?

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That's a really good question.

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I think you could ask the friend, so how do you feel about coming in?

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How do you feel when you go to a mosque?

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What do you think you'd feel when you come here?

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How can we help you to feel welcome?

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I think actually going to a mosque yourself can then, OK, if I feel like this, how can I, good or bad,

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how can I do something about that, which is helpful, I think.

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I think it's a real...

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Would you just say to Christian folks, just offer that and be happy to go along?

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And if your Muslim friend says, yeah, come along.

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Some people might feel, I mean, I'm a Christian, should I do that?

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Would I be turned away at the door because I'm not a Muslim?

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Just tell us a bit more about that.

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So I think we should be...

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I recognise that some people would have a problem with that.

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They might think that it's demonic, it's idolatry and have conscience issues.

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They might have come from a Muslim background themselves and have had very bad experience

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and not want to go back there ever.

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I understand that. You don't want them to go against their conscience at all.

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Personally, I don't think it's any different from going to Westfield or West Ham.

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Those are idolatry, places of idolatry in different ways.

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We don't see it that way.

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For non-Londoners, Westfield is a temple, isn't it, in London to commercialism.

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Is that what you're talking about?

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It's a huge shopping centre, enormous.

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It's built like a temple.

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Yeah. And you go there to shop, you don't go there to worship or do you?

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And similarly, when you go to the London Stadium to watch West Ham,

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do you go to watch or to worship?

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Similarly in a mosque.

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Now, obviously, you could be in danger of worshipping,

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but I think as a Christian, you can pray about it.

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And whenever I've gone, partly I've said who I am,

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and so they're not expecting me to worship, partly they've been very suspicious.

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Am I MI5?

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I said no.

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Of course, I'd say no if I was MI5.

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Are you a spy?

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Exactly. And then are you Daily Mail?

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Because that's what they worry too about investigative journalism,

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because that's what they've experienced.

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And again, it's helpful to know that background,

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that people are fearful of what you might do to them,

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because that has happened in the past.

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So being a church worker was way down the list of worries for them.

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And I just sat at the back and watched what happened.

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And it's interesting just the three or four mosques that I've been to

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have largely been pretty unwelcoming, unless I've known somebody there.

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But I've gone to listen to the sermon and then to try to engage the imam afterwards.

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Do you think it's fair to draw a parallel between a typical Christian's experience

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at a mosque and how strange it would be,

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and what going to church feels like for a Muslim person?

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It's going to be equally strange both ways?

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I think so, yes.

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I would hope, though, that the outsider was welcomed more than I've ever felt.

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Yes.

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And I think that's partly, though, because

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the church gathering on a Sunday is not simply a gathering vertically with God.

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Whereas generally, for all my Muslim friends talk about the Muslim community

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and the global umma, actually, horizontal relationships don't, I think, matter a great deal.

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And certainly in the mosque, it's vertical. It's all for God.

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Whereas in the church, we want to be encouraging and getting to know one another,

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speaking the truth in love to our brothers and sisters.

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So we're all built up in the vertical as well, but there's horizontal matter.

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So you would hope, yes, that when I bring my friend into church, that he would be welcomed,

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that he wouldn't feel that he has to stand and sing with everyone else,

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because actually that in his mind would be engaging in idolatry and worship.

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But we could sit there and that would be fine for him.

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That he would be helped to read and the scripts to find the right page.

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That shouldn't be problematic.

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You'd hope that the preacher, if he touches on Islam as part of whatever else, isn't rude.

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We can be in danger of saying things without realising that they are rude or stereotypical.

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You'd hope to, and this is going to wind people up completely,

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that people are dressed in a way that's not on the beach.

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Now, I know that's problematic and I know that we are free to dress in Christ,

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however we want to. I understand that.

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But for someone who's grown up in the Middle East, that can be a significant issue.

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Deeply problematic for guys in shorts, ladies in crop tops, whatever.

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And absolutely they can worship Jesus like that.

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I understand that.

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But the person who's coming from a very different background thinks,

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are these people serious?

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That's a difficulty with multicultural, multi-anything church.

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You have people that rub against each other in very different ways.

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How to help that to work well.

379
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It's great to hear these thoughts, Rob, just from your long experience.

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Just what's striking me, what you were saying,

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is how wonderful, genuine, heartfelt desires that Christians can have.

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To really wanting all sorts and different kinds of people to come in,

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can hit up against obstacles that just don't occur to us.

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Because they're just so natural in our world.

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Yeah, we don't see them.

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Yeah. I mean, so just on a Sunday, you'd love an alcoholic to feel welcome.

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You'd love an Orthodox Muslim to feel welcome.

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You'd love a Hindu.

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Now, they're all going to wind each other up

390
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and they're going to think that how can I come to such a place

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that is welcoming of these very different people, let alone Christians?

392
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I think, well, yeah, how does the gospel cut across all of that?

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Yeah, yeah.

394
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So Rob, to close, if people are interested in learning more about this,

395
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what are some books that they could read that would help them in that?

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And don't forget yours.

397
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It's very kind.

398
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So if people are only going to read one book ever,

399
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I'd still recommend Nabil Qureshi's book, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus.

400
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It's his testimony.

401
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Sadly, he died a few years ago now, but it shows his warmth to his still Muslim family.

402
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It shows his upbringing, his valuing of that.

403
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It shows the value of a Christian friend coming alongside him,

404
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talking about Jesus, showing practical love and friendship,

405
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but also asking hard questions.

406
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It also shows the power of God at work.

407
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And I think it's a great, it's really easy read, quite thick,

408
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but it's a really easy read.

409
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I absolutely love that book when I read it.

410
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That's Nabil Qureshi.

411
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Nabil Qureshi, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus.

412
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If you get two, so my second book at the moment,

413
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I can't quite remember her name, but it's something like Maura Dale.

414
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And the title is something like Islam and Women,

415
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but the subtitle is Hagar's Heritage.

416
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I remember that bit.

417
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And it's a fantastic book for outlining key Islamic theology,

418
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but illustrating everything from a woman's perspective,

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which is really helpful because women do experience Islam different from men often.

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And it's a really good book from that point of view.

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My book Dear Abdullah is based on talks that I gave it in mosques and community centres,

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trying to answer particular questions that Muslim people have.

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So yeah, how can God be one and three?

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How can God be murdered?

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How can you believe in a corrupt book?

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Aren't all Westerners Christian and Christian Westerners more the problem with that?

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So trying to answer those kinds of things.

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And then a short book published by 10 of those,

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based on some of the lectures here on sharing your faith with Muslim neighbours.

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Wonderful.

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Rob, this has been a really enjoyable and stimulating conversation.

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I found it personally really helpful.

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We're so pleased that you come in here to Oak Hill and teach students on these things.

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Every blessing to you in your wider life and ministry.

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Yes.

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We trust that this has been a blessing to you too.

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This latest episode of Deep Roots, the Oak Hill podcast.

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If you haven't caught up on earlier episodes, you might like to look back.

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We've got quite a range of topics that we've covered.

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The back catalogue is building a little bit.

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And we're available on a number of platforms, YouTube and Spotify.

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So check us out on all those things.