1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,440 Hello and welcome to Deep Roots, conversations about theology and ministry. 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:10,640 My name is Kristy Mayer, I'm one of the lecturers here at Oak Hill College and today I'm joined by... 3 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:13,520 Tim Ward, I'm also one of the lecturers here. Hi Kristy. 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:18,880 We're also joined by our greatly esteemed colleague Dr Matt Bingham. Hello Matt, how are you doing? 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,920 Hello Kristy, hello Tim, great to be here together today. 6 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,800 Hello Matt, remind us of what you teach. I know obviously, but it is... 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,920 Yeah, I teach systematic theology and church history. 8 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:49,040 Nice and there are many things that we would love to ask you about but we're going to be focusing on one area today and that is we're going to be looking at the topic of early modern Puritan prayer because Matt, you have just written a book all about Puritan spirituality and I hear that you have quite a juicy chapter on prayer itself. 9 00:00:49,040 --> 00:01:02,240 Yeah, that's right Kristy, so that's my kind of current project, early modern Puritan spirituality, spiritual formation and prayer is a significant part of that and a significant part of the book. 10 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:23,200 It was a significant aspect of Puritan piety, Puritan devotion. The John Owen who some would say is the greatest of the Puritan divines or theologians, he said that all will readily acknowledge that as without it, without prayer, he says there can be no religion at all. 11 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:36,160 So the life and exercise of all religion doth principally consist therein. So no prayer, no religion, the life and exercise of all religion is tied up with prayer. 12 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:45,440 That's strong. For those who aren't watching but just listening, Matt was reading that quote from a piece of paper in front of him. I'm slightly disappointed you haven't got that memorized, Matt. 13 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:47,440 Give it time. 14 00:01:47,440 --> 00:02:00,960 There's a way to go. For those who, I mean obviously some people watching and listening will be kind of all over the Puritans, we've used the phrase already early modern, just locate for us for those who need some help on just when in history are we talking and where? 15 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:22,240 Yeah, right. So historians are always arguing over periodization, how do you divide history up into different periods so that you can kind of get a handle on what's going on and sort of shorthand so we can identify where we're at. So if we think big three, ancient, medieval or middle ages and then modern. 16 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:49,680 And so the modern era runs from, again people argue over it, but say 1500 to the present. And so the early modern period then would be the front end of that. Say 1500 to 1700, some people say 1500 to 1800, but for our purposes, if we're talking about Puritans, we're really looking at late 16th century and then especially in the 17th century, the 1600s in England and in North America. 17 00:02:49,680 --> 00:03:08,080 That is very exciting. I feel like I've just learned a lot in that past kind of minute or so. Thanks so much, Matt. Because I think that kind of takes us on to the next question of just thinking a little bit about the Puritans and considering that they are early modern, what on earth do they have to teach us about prayer? 18 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:21,520 Like why should we even care about them? I mean, you've already read that lovely extract, but I'm just wondering why them and not, as you mentioned, some of the medieval kind of writers or even earlier than that has been passed on through church traditions. 19 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:27,360 Why the Puritans? Why are you so passionate about them? And why should we care about what they have to say when it comes to prayer? 20 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:55,680 Yeah, no, it's a good question. And I find, so I teach a lot of the church history modules here and I find that I'm always sort of commending voices from the past. And sometimes when you're constantly commending voices from the past, especially from one period like, oh, this Puritan says this and that Puritan said that, you do have to remind folks, yeah, I'm quoting these people a lot, but I'm not want to convey that everything they said was right or just because they said it, it's right. 21 00:03:55,680 --> 00:04:14,800 Ultimately, we want to root our ideas, our theology about prayer, whatever else in scripture. But in the case of the Puritans, it seems to me, as it seemed to me, that they had a deeply biblical way of thinking about life, about the Christian life, about who God is, about who we are. 22 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:31,200 And they really left behind an incredibly rich collection of devotional writings. So there, you know, again, Puritanism gets going in the late 1500s, but then in the 1600s is where a lot of the most well-known sort of Puritan authors are operating. 23 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:46,840 And so if you think about that, that's kind of after the Reformation has been going a bit. And you have people who are really reflecting deeply on, okay, we have this Reformation theology, we have justification by faith alone, we have the solas of the Reformation. 24 00:04:46,840 --> 00:05:01,240 What does this look like for the spiritual life? What does it look like for growth, you know, grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ? How do we do that in a way that's consistent with this Reformation theology that we've embraced? 25 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:16,600 And so I find them really helpful. They just wrote a tremendous amount. And I suppose ultimately as well, it's, you know, C.S. Lewis talked about the need to have old books, the breeze of the centuries blowing through. 26 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:28,400 And part of his reasoning there is just that, you know, each cultural moment has its own blind spots and its own, you know, things that gets really right, things that it doesn't. 27 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:38,200 And so when we enter into this world of early modern Puritan spirituality, I think sometimes we just see people who come at issues, come at problems from a different angle than we're coming at them. 28 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,400 And sometimes they can highlight things for us that we might not have been attuned to. 29 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:50,160 Well, let's, okay, let's get into it. What are the Puritan distinctives around what prayer actually is? 30 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:59,160 Yeah, what is prayer? It's interesting. So when I was working on this section, actually, that was one of the first questions. And I think we take it for granted, don't we? 31 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:06,360 Because we, you know, I think if you're a Christian person, you know, prayer is important to you. We hope the Bible is full of references to it. 32 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:16,520 We talk about it. We pray in our services. We encourage people to pray at home. But what actually are we doing when we talk about prayer? What does that entail? 33 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:32,360 And what I found, you know, with the Puritan authors, when they define prayer, they seem most often, they'll elaborate on this, but most often they come back around to some basic variation on prayer is talking to God. 34 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:45,400 Prayer is talking with God. So one of the earliest sort of English Reformation writers on this on the subject in the 16th century, he published a catechism in 1548. 35 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:56,360 So this is before the Puritans, but they would have been on board with this. He defined prayer as an earnest talk with God. Prayer is an earnest talk with God. 36 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:08,880 And there's a simplicity to that. But it makes sense, doesn't it? If God is personal, if God is the God who hears the prayers of his people, the cries of his people, then, yeah, we are talking to him. 37 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:21,400 It's a conversation. We're telling him we're pouring out our heart, our desires, our thanksgiving, our praise. And for them, they would have situated this in terms of, look, God has spoken in his word. 38 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:28,480 We are hearing him. We're thinking about what we're hearing. And then we're responding back in prayer. 39 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:41,640 And that sense of earnestness that you just mentioned, what do they mean by that? Because when I hear the word earnest, all sorts of things come to mind. What are they putting their finger on that, do you think? 40 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:49,440 Yeah, I mean, I think when they talk, they'll talk often about earnest prayer, heartfelt prayer, prayer from the heart. That's really important to them. 41 00:07:49,440 --> 00:08:05,120 And in part, I think they are, again, they're reacting against a sort of medieval backdrop in which they have perceived a real emphasis on prayers that are not heartfelt or earnest. 42 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:12,080 That's the perception, right? So they were sensitive to the idea that you would engage in vain repetition. 43 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:18,760 Think of Jesus' words in Matthew's gospel, you know, don't pray in this vain, repetitive way. 44 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:25,600 And so they're very sensitive to that because that's what they see in the medieval sort of Catholic background. 45 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:30,320 They see prayers repeated often for some sort of effect. 46 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:37,240 And so they really stress this idea that, no, if you're going to pray, it's personal, it's conversation with God, it's heartfelt. 47 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:47,440 You need to mean it. It just just as though, you know, if you and I were having a chat and I was just sort of repeating some set formula, I might be doing something, but it's not a genuine conversation. 48 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,600 It's not an interaction. And so they were very sensitive to that. 49 00:08:49,600 --> 00:09:01,080 There's a, if you're into Thomas Watson, he told a story about a man who taught his bird, his parrot or something to say the Lord's prayer. 50 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:10,960 And he talked about this man and he concluded that this shows that to say a prayer is not to pray. 51 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:15,360 Don't know what you make of that. 52 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,320 Depends what your theology of animals is. Let's not go there. 53 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,600 Do you have an avian theology? 54 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:35,040 It's interesting you picked up on the word earnest because, yeah, it may be that nowadays we might hear the word earnest and think serious, unsmiling, joyless. 55 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:39,600 And in some circles, the Puritans have the reputation of being exactly that. 56 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,880 You know, these are these are this is the no fun crowd. 57 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,080 If you want to laugh, don't go out for the night with the Puritans is the reputation. 58 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:53,080 But it sounds like for you, when they're using words like earnest, what they really mean is heartfelt. 59 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,120 Is that right? You just expand that out for us. 60 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:01,360 What's what's going on in that for them? What is this the wrong question? 61 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:06,760 If I showed up at a Puritan church prayer meeting, what you know, what would you expect? 62 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:08,040 What's what's going to hit me? 63 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:13,360 How might that be different from the local church, excellent local church prayer meeting I go to? 64 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:20,080 Yeah, it's interesting. So, I mean, Puritans do have this reputation as these kind of dour, sour kind of folks. 65 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:25,000 And I think it is they were very serious about God and the things of God. 66 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:30,320 But that doesn't mean they lacked emotion and warmth and, you know, far from it. 67 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:37,800 I mean, one of their big things, one of their key emphasis is they want to move away from religion 68 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:46,560 that they see as going through the motions, as as rooted in in habit or, you know, tradition, tradition understood as 69 00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:51,320 I'm doing it just because it's today, we might say, mere tradition or bear tradition. 70 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:57,840 They want to move away from that and they want to move toward a religion that is marked by godly affections. 71 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:03,840 So when they talk about prayer, you'll often see whether you're looking at their journals or treatises they wrote, 72 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:10,760 there's often talk about prayer with with sighs and groans and tears. 73 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:15,640 There's often this sense of of pleading with God. 74 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,560 Call it whatever you want, but but dry. It isn't. 75 00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:28,000 And that's a different I think they were serious about this, but that doesn't mean they were, you know, sour faced. 76 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:36,440 So they're really trying to kind of rehabilitate this kind of sense of what does it mean to enjoy God in our in our prayer life 77 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:41,720 through that joyful communication, often with words. 78 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,320 You mentioned conversation with with God. 79 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,600 Is that an important piece of this as well? 80 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:56,840 That this is a what does conversation mean to to a Puritan as they're speaking to with God? 81 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,880 Yeah, that that is that is interesting. 82 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:04,440 This idea of conversation with God, you know, Calvin uses the same language. 83 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,640 He talked about prayers to enter into a conversation with God, you know, John Calvin. 84 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:13,880 So now we're talking about 16th century reformer earlier in Geneva, not in England. 85 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:18,040 But this is the reformed tradition in which the Puritans were taking part. 86 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:23,240 So they would look into him and he he he talks about prairie says it's inter inter conversation with God, 87 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:31,360 a conversation whereby we expound to him our desires, our joys, our sighs in a word, all the thoughts of our hearts. 88 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:42,320 And so I think for them, they're, you know, they're working from this point of a personal God who hears, you know, it's it's one 89 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:47,000 author talks about how it's it's in scripture, it's characteristic of God to hear prayer. 90 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:52,880 That's one of the things that God that makes God, he's the God who hears the prayers of his people early in Genesis after the fall. 91 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:57,120 You know, then people began to what to cry out to the Lord. 92 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:02,880 And so, you know, you see in that thing by Calvin, there's just is pouring out your heart. 93 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:08,080 So it's for them, it's a conversation in in the sense that it's comprehensive. 94 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:16,360 It's not just narrowly defined about, OK, I'm going to say these sort of religious formulas and then I've done my duty. 95 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:22,800 You wouldn't treat a real relationship like that and you wouldn't treat your your life with God in that way. 96 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,400 And then the other part of conversation, of course, is it's it's two ways. 97 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,880 OK, yeah, we're not. Yeah, yeah, yeah, do it. 98 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,800 No, exactly. Because it's interesting that quote from Calvin. 99 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:38,320 He said his conversation with God, but then he what he went on to say sounded rather like my monologue to God. 100 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:49,200 And I mean, it would often be said of prayer, you know, in many good churches, if you want a one liner on prayer, it would be God speaks to us in scripture. 101 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,360 We speak back to him in prayer. 102 00:13:52,360 --> 00:14:02,520 It sounds like there's more going on in the Puritans than that, that actually in the praying, it's not just me talking to God, pleading his promises with him. 103 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:05,080 It's absolutely that. But there's more going on. 104 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,360 There is a listening to God in praying. 105 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,520 Is that right? Is that going on in prayer spirituality? 106 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:22,240 Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that makes this area interesting and sometimes kind of tricky is that the way they talk about 107 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,400 you mentioned reading the Bible. 108 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:33,800 So they'll talk about reading the Bible. And and yeah, you are, you know, the the primary place where we hear God speak, we hear God speak in his in his word. 109 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,160 So they're going to that's God's sort of chief means. 110 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,200 And so we're hearing him in his word. 111 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,480 Then they're going to talk about prayer where we're responding back to him. 112 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,960 But you said, is there something more? 113 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:57,160 Just another definition from a Puritan, William Bridge defines prayers, the that act and work of the soul, whereby a man doth converse with God. 114 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,720 So there you have that converse conversation language. 115 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,480 But I think he talks about that work of the soul. 116 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:08,000 So what's what's going on? And they have a third element. 117 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,680 They've got hearing from God in his word, our words back to him in prayer. 118 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,400 But then they have this third element, meditation. 119 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,200 You know, this is a big issue for them as well. 120 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:25,440 And the way they talk about these three meditation, prayer, scripture intake, they talk about them almost sometimes interchangeably. 121 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:41,400 Like they'll almost talk about them as though these three things, though distinct and distinguishable, are kind of three elements of the same thing, namely communion with God, the work of the soul relating to him. 122 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:49,240 And I think there's a lot of leeway in there then to kind of enter in imaginatively to say, OK, what does that look like to do that work of the soul? 123 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:54,720 And so, yeah, I think it's more than if we're imagining it as sort of rote. 124 00:15:54,720 --> 00:16:07,680 I say this, you know, there is that kind of sense of back and forth and engaging and wrestling with God in prayer and meditation and the scripture. 125 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:16,360 I was just I was just really struck by what you the phrase that you used to describe that as communion is a communion of the soul with the soul. 126 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:17,720 What what does that mean? 127 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:30,840 Because I think in my mind, Seth, and before we kind of recorded this podcast, we were chatting about some of the backdrop that the Puritans are writing against in terms of particular mystical strands and threads. 128 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:39,960 So when I hear communion of the soul with the soul, you know, with with God, there might be particular kind of mystic authors who use that kind of language. 129 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:48,320 So I'm just wondering kind of what what would you say is that what's the distinction here with with the Puritans when they use the language of communion of the soul with God? 130 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,280 I can't remember what the what the word was. But what do they mean by that? 131 00:16:52,280 --> 00:17:00,040 And how do they distinguish themselves from from the mystics if that was their purpose partly as well? 132 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,240 So much to ask. Sorry. Lots of questions there. But yeah, yeah, yeah. 133 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,440 We talked about communion with God. He's the historian. 134 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:13,160 You can have it. It's all good. And the work of the soul and communion with God, the work of the soul. 135 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,520 What are we talking about? Yeah, it's interesting. 136 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,760 I mean, you mentioned the mystics, mystical theology, this sort of thing. 137 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:23,760 And that that can be a tricky term because people use it in different ways. 138 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,400 It's quite broad. People try to pin down what they mean. 139 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,880 There's been a lot of work that has identified a mystical strain within Puritanism. 140 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:37,040 And again, depending on what you mean by mystical, you can you can certainly find that again. 141 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:44,160 They're very warm, very experiential or they might say experimental, you know, sort of Christians. 142 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:53,080 They're very active. There's one story recorded of a woman who after her death, 143 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:59,640 her husband records finding in her little bureau, her nightstand, this piece of paper. 144 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:04,280 And he found it and on it she had written out, you know, Bible verses. 145 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:11,920 And he just makes the observation that the paper was so worn through constant use that it was almost falling apart. 146 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:18,160 And he says these were verses she turned to when she was facing times of difficulty or temptation or trial. 147 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:25,520 And to me, that image of that paper almost worn out by by use is a symbol. 148 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,160 It's an image, isn't it, of the way they approached the spiritual life generally. 149 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:35,200 Prayer. It was active. It was it was as Bridges says, the work of the soul. 150 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,200 Now, you talk mystics and mysticism. 151 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:46,720 I think one thing where we where we can see a different emphasis is at least in some mystical theology, certainly. 152 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:55,640 There is a sense that sort of you have different levels of communion with God, different levels of spiritual experience. 153 00:18:55,640 --> 00:19:03,680 Right. And often these are divided into often it's three levels, sometimes other numbers, but, you know, three levels distinguishable. 154 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:11,920 And there's this idea of a progression. And so if you're better, if you're if you're a spiritual adept, if you've if you've really got deep into this, 155 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:19,000 you will advance and you'll get to more and more sort of significant kind of realms of spiritual engagement. 156 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:30,680 And I think the Puritans reform theology generally, you know, has always wanted to resist this idea of a two stage Christian life or a three stage Christian life. 157 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:36,360 You have an idea of a progression in a growth in grace, growing the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, 158 00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:42,000 progressive sanctification, moving towards the goal, becoming more conformed to the image of Christ. 159 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:48,920 That is there. But the idea there be discrete stages and that you'd want to move from stage one to stage two. 160 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:53,240 That is something that, you know, they're going to resist. 161 00:19:53,240 --> 00:20:04,000 And specifically in our chat here, you know, we talk about prayers, conversation with God, and that implies words, implies words and implies thoughtful words. 162 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:11,720 And there is a strain, at least in some mystic authors, where those later stages where you want to get to, where if you're really good, you'll get to. 163 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:22,680 They sort of are are moving beyond, you know, mere in quotes, mere words towards some sort of wordless communion with God. 164 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:31,760 And I think that way of framing it would have made these authors very uncomfortable because they would say, well, we we, you know, 165 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,560 they had a very deeply word based piety. 166 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,360 You know, it's a spirituality very much of the word, by the word. 167 00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:46,520 And so any kind, any time, any kind of rhetoric that says somehow words are a starting point, but you move beyond them. 168 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,440 I think that would make them very uncomfortable. 169 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,280 I can't think of a way of asking. Here's what I want to ask. 170 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:56,720 I can't think of a more sophisticated way of asking. 171 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:03,280 Just take that line, I think I've heard a lot, I use it myself in a sense is significantly true. 172 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:07,240 God speaks to us in scripture. We speak back to him in prayer. 173 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:12,480 If that's basically all someone works with. 174 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:23,400 Moments of silence in prayer, moments of meditation, contemplation, waiting on the Lord. 175 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,720 Those kinds of things are probably not going to get a place and might be thought to be, 176 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,720 no, I'm not sure some people like me should be doing that. 177 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,960 I'll leave that to other kinds of people. 178 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,640 Sounds like the Puritans are not going to be entirely comfortable with that. 179 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:43,080 They are having these moments in prayer where they are doing so that they call conversation. 180 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:47,400 They might would I mean, they they might not have called it waiting on the Lord. 181 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:53,400 But something like that is going on, isn't it, from what you're describing? 182 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:59,440 Yeah, I mean, so I think they would say that the way you get from. 183 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:05,080 I'm reading this verse in the Bible and the way you get to a prayer that's not empty, hollow, 184 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:10,520 vain repetition is through this intermediate step called meditation. 185 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:15,320 This other thing called meditation, which is one of these places where I'm going to think, 186 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,960 at least in the evangelical circles I grew up in, I did hear a lot about the need to 187 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:25,360 read your Bible and I heard a lot about the need to pray and that's good. 188 00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:30,640 But I didn't hear much about meditation, which is again, that has all sorts of connotations 189 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,080 in our own day and all sorts of meanings. 190 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:34,080 But the Puritans used it. 191 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,280 They used it a lot and they thought it was really important. 192 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,320 And in a sense, I think it's the thing you're talking about. 193 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,600 How do you move from kind of a bear, OK, I'm reading these words. 194 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,840 I'm sort of spitting them back in this sort of automatic way. 195 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:54,080 The way that becomes not just automatic but actually real communion with God is through 196 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:59,480 meditation, which they very much saw as the thing that kind of works the promises of God, 197 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:05,080 the things of God, works them into the heart, works them into the soul so that they well 198 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:10,080 up in some sort of real, authentic, godly affection. 199 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:16,960 And so that meditation in a sense bridges, I'm taking in God's words, I'm going to speak 200 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,200 back to God in my words in prayer. 201 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,760 But this is the bridge between them that makes it authentic, that makes it real so that you're 202 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:33,040 not just Thomas Watson's friend's parrot who can just memorize a set form and spit it back. 203 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:39,840 So what is going on then in meditation in order to kind of work it into the soul? 204 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:47,120 How when I'm reading my Bible, for example, and I want to I'm talking to God, what would 205 00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:52,800 I what would it look like for me to do exactly what you've just described when I'm praying? 206 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:57,360 How do I sorry, when I'm meditating, how do I do what you've just described? 207 00:23:57,360 --> 00:24:04,720 Yeah, well, I think a lot of it was taking what you're reading in scripture and applying 208 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:13,120 it to yourself and thinking through the implications for yourself and your life and your soul. 209 00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:17,040 You know, so it's it's it's pausing, it's pondering. 210 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:23,480 You know, the psalmist says I waited on the Lord and you heard my cry. 211 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,960 You answered me and it's it's pausing there and it's sitting in that and it's not just 212 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,160 necessarily rushing on it saying, okay, what is waiting on what does it mean to wait on 213 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:32,160 on the Lord? 214 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,840 Oh, you know, David doesn't say how long he waited. 215 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,680 He might have waited a really long time. 216 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,760 I've been waiting a really long time. 217 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:41,760 He waited. 218 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:42,760 I'm waiting. 219 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:43,760 But the Lord does answer. 220 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:44,760 He's the God who answers prayer. 221 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:45,760 We can see it here. 222 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,180 He'll answer my prayer. 223 00:24:47,180 --> 00:24:49,280 And then all of a sudden you're giving thanks to God. 224 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,440 Thank you, God, for being the God who answers prayer. 225 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,000 You know, how long must I wait? 226 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:55,280 I don't know, but it's in your head. 227 00:24:55,280 --> 00:25:00,080 You know, you're you're you're working, you know, you're working this stuff into into 228 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,980 your heart, and that is broadly what they call meditation. 229 00:25:04,980 --> 00:25:10,560 And for them, they really just thought that without meditation, your Bible read in your 230 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:18,040 prayer life can very easily fall into kind of something that they might regard as hypocritical 231 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,280 or false or or empty. 232 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,440 OK, this is this is really helpful. 233 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,380 So meditation is the bridge. 234 00:25:25,380 --> 00:25:31,200 That's that middle thing between I've read my Bible and I'm now going to pray. 235 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:36,200 It's the point at which I kind of I'm what I'm asking the Lord to I'm taking time for 236 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,560 that word to from to what to rub it into my soul, to work it into my heart. 237 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:41,560 Mm hmm. 238 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:42,560 Mm hmm. 239 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,720 About it just I'm just kind of flesh out what you're saying. 240 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,880 It'll be those moments when I'm I'm asking I've just read this passage. 241 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,200 I've seen some wonderful truth about him and what I'm now saying. 242 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,240 Lord, will you show me now what does this mean in my life? 243 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,280 What do you show me about what this means? 244 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,880 I should repent, repent over, give thanks for. 245 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:03,880 Yeah. 246 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,960 Where I should seek to grow in godliness. 247 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:08,720 And that that work has to be done. 248 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:09,720 Mm hmm. 249 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:10,720 Is this right? 250 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:11,720 It has to be done. 251 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:12,720 Yeah. 252 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:19,120 And if it's not done, if I close my Bible and I pray, even if I'm not parroting a set 253 00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:25,600 prayer, they're coming with my own prayer, I'm I might it might just be words. 254 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:31,280 I might just have got skillful at turning Bible words into nice sounding prayers. 255 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,240 But the hard work is this the territory we're in? 256 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:36,240 I think I think so. 257 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:37,640 And you mentioned it has to be. 258 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:44,800 So one of the images they like to use was they'd say that, you know, the reading the 259 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,880 Bible or hearing the Bible, however you're taking in God's words. 260 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,720 That's like, you know, taking in in food. 261 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,020 You know, you're chewing. 262 00:26:53,020 --> 00:26:56,000 But meditation is the digestion. 263 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,600 And you know, again, you think about that and you think, OK, yeah, if I just if I just, 264 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:05,880 you know, took in some food, but I spit it out after chewing on it and I didn't let it 265 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,520 get digested, I'm not going to grow. 266 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:09,840 It's not going to nourish me. 267 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,440 It's not going to actually build me up in any way. 268 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,240 And so it's that's how they see meditation. 269 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:20,680 Meditation is what takes that takes the food and actually turns it and turns it into new 270 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:21,680 tissue. 271 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:28,480 And so, again, that's why if you're not doing it, you're you're not growing. 272 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:39,560 Can really see then how focusing on on meditation as digestion just completely cuts across and 273 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:44,240 just beautifully speaks into that that notion of prayer is just rapid vein repetition. 274 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,280 It's you just doing it by rote. 275 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:53,480 But also, I was just thinking that it also speaks into the objection of, you know, when 276 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,960 is it Matthew six where Jesus is saying, you know, don't pray like the pagans who are just 277 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:02,440 babbling and they're using many words because they think that they will be heard by God. 278 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,440 There's this in an interesting way. 279 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:11,120 You've also described a threefold stage progression to prayer, which obviously isn't the same 280 00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:17,200 as kind of the mystical progression, but there's still this kind of movement to to prayer with 281 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,360 with meditation in the middle. 282 00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:23,920 And it's it that's that's given me a lot to think about in terms of this isn't babbling. 283 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,880 It isn't using lots of words because God will be able to hear you regardless. 284 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:29,640 But also, it's not vain repetition. 285 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:36,840 It's this digestion of of the word and a reflection upon your your life and your spiritual state. 286 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,880 So that when you pray, is this right? 287 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:44,560 So that when you pray, you're praying from a position of Lord, help me or Lord, thank 288 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:49,000 you in the particulars of our lives, not as a kind of an esoteric. 289 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,760 Here are the things that I have to say so that I'm a good Christian or so that God will 290 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,600 hear me or so that I'm pious in some way. 291 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,720 This is an expression of the soul reaching out to God and saying, Lord, hear my cry, 292 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,120 see my state or thank you so much for what you've been doing. 293 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,520 And that's that's just that's just really beautiful, because I think I don't know if 294 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,080 you're like this as well, Tim. 295 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,160 Often when I've had the Puritans, I have thought dour and sour. 296 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,680 But also, you know, you need to spend more time with that. 297 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:18,680 I do. 298 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:19,680 I genuinely. 299 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,320 But also like Richard Sibbes and others, you know, like the honey mouth preacher. 300 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:29,320 You know, you just think, wow, how do how do these two two visions, two different pictures 301 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:34,040 of of the Puritans emerge when you've got people like Sibbes and Owens? 302 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,160 And then you've got this picture of the dowowners. 303 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:39,160 It's great to recover it. 304 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,360 It's great to recover it. 305 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,600 Let's put contemporary evangelical spirituality in light of this. 306 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,840 Now, it's contemporary evangelical spiritualities plural. 307 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,400 You know, there's a real breadth here. 308 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:57,800 But just, you know, in your own upbringing as Christians and how you've been influenced 309 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,560 and how people have helped you. 310 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:06,880 Is something like this meditation being in the air for you? 311 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,240 Is this significantly lost? 312 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,000 Do you think for us? 313 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,400 What do you reckon? 314 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:17,440 I mean, I think so I mentioned I didn't hear a lot about this in my circles growing up 315 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:18,960 and I didn't. 316 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:26,440 But I suspect that when people were commending Bible reading and prayer, I suspect that a 317 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:31,560 lot of them, most of them perhaps, were actually doing something a lot like what the Puritans 318 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,400 were commending with meditation. 319 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,080 I think that that probably was happening. 320 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:39,040 I think there's a sense in which what we're describing when we describe meditation is 321 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:46,760 just the way a thoughtful, you know, Christian person engages with scripture. 322 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:53,440 And you know, you read, you know, Jesus says that not a sparrow is going to fall apart 323 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,840 from the will of your father. 324 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,600 And if you're really reading that and you're thinking about it and you're not just doing 325 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,680 it to tick a box that I read my verse for the day, if you're really reading that and 326 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,560 thinking about it, you're going to start to do what the Puritans identify as meditation. 327 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,320 You're going to think about what that means for me. 328 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,720 You're going to think about the things I'm worrying about right now and you're going 329 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,080 to think, you know, I'm really anxious about this but actually Jesus is telling me that 330 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,160 I'm worth more than many sparrows. 331 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,800 And you're going to start to work that into your heart. 332 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:25,760 And it's going to then lead you to an authentic heartfelt prayer that's not a mere vain repetition. 333 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:32,840 And so I suspect that this does go on but I think there's value in the way the Puritans 334 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:41,160 draw it out, name it explicitly and identify the lack of this meditation as a, you know, 335 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:48,600 common cause for spiritual dryness and lack of sort of growth and lack of a sense of vitality 336 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,200 in one's prayer life and one's spiritual life. 337 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:58,120 It's definitely not spoken about, is it, or at least I've never heard a sermon or a seminar 338 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:04,960 or a conversation in which meditation has taken centre stage as an important piece of 339 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,360 our prayer lives. 340 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:12,800 Often I think it's been what you've mentioned, Tim, is the, you know, you hear from God in 341 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,240 the Word and then you turn it back to Him in prayer. 342 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,520 It's almost like an automatic response. 343 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:22,240 You literally just pray the words that you've just read. 344 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,920 But also I'm an immigrant and I come from a Pentecostal background. 345 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:34,720 So this whole piece in terms of meditation is very common to me in terms of my own background 346 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,280 from central Europe. 347 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,680 But I think it has been interesting coming over to the UK and hearing how in, you know, 348 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,760 I've been in Pentecostal, conservative, evangelical churches, charismatic churches. 349 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:51,960 There's the ways in which this is spoken about in those three different groups and particular 350 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,840 things that are emphasised in each church culture and context. 351 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:03,080 And so I think, you know, particularly for the conservative evangelicals, this, you know, 352 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:08,760 as we've been discussing, it does seem to be kind of an overlooked piece because it's 353 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:13,920 almost quite, you're not in control really, are you? 354 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:19,120 If you have moments of silence and stillness and where you're so decentered in that you 355 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:24,800 are, we're always in the presence of the Lord, but as we're praying, we're waiting on the 356 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:30,440 Lord to such a degree that as we're reflecting on scripture and as we're allowing the Spirit 357 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:36,520 to move in our hearts and minds, we aren't expressing in words immediately what it is 358 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,080 that God is saying to us. 359 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:46,760 There is that gap, as it were, that can feel quite, I can feel quite frightening, I think, 360 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:55,320 to be still and to focus upon the Lord, that there's a sense there in which I just wonder 361 00:33:55,320 --> 00:34:02,440 if to some degree that can prevent people from engaging with it a little bit more than 362 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,760 perhaps you're encouraging us to, Matt, through the Puritans. 363 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:08,480 Thinking about that sense of loss of control. 364 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,200 Yeah, I mean, it's interesting too. 365 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:18,000 So one of the things, so I think clearly the direction of travel for Puritan authors, if 366 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:23,480 they're talking about prayer as conversation with God at its heart, if they're talking 367 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:30,440 about the need to avoid vain repetition, and so you want thoughtful words, you want prayer 368 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:37,800 that's tethered to scripture that's largely responding to it and incorporating it into 369 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,600 your prayer, it does raise the question, well, what if I can't pray? 370 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:47,640 What if I struggle to do that? 371 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:54,200 They often do set a high bar when they're talking about the devotional life of the Christian, 372 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:59,440 and in part I think that just reflects the seriousness with which they approach this. 373 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:05,000 In part I think it reflects the sense that they were trying to often paint the sort of 374 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,920 ideal portrait, this is what we're aiming for, very much of the thought that if you 375 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,400 don't know what you're aiming at, you're never going to hit it. 376 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:16,720 And so they try to give this sort of often this picture, this is what we want, this is 377 00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:17,720 godliness. 378 00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:23,480 But then I think also if we're feeling that, we need to recognize that they were actually 379 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:29,200 very good and very attentive to the questions about what happens when things go wrong, what 380 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:35,160 happens when I feel dejected, discouraged, faithless, they were actually very surprisingly 381 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,480 sensitive to these issues and they addressed them quite frequently. 382 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:45,720 So yes, you can find the statements that are very strong and says a Christian will do X, 383 00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:51,240 Y, and Z, but then if you read on in that same sermon, say, they'll say now, when you 384 00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:53,600 don't feel that way, here's five remedies. 385 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:59,000 And so sometimes when we just hear the strong quotes but without the balancing second bit, 386 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,040 we can get a distorted picture. 387 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:07,520 So just for example, here's a quotation, I think you mentioned Richard Sibbs, Christie, 388 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:16,240 here's one from Sibbs, in which he says that God can pick sense out of a confused prayer. 389 00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:20,920 These desires cry louder in his ears than your sins. 390 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:25,080 Sometimes he says a Christian has such confused thoughts that he can say nothing, but as a 391 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,640 child cries, oh Father, not able to express what he needs. 392 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:35,440 And then he says that these stirrings of spirit touch the heart of God and melt him into compassion 393 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:42,120 towards us when they come from the spirit of adoption and from striving to be better. 394 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:50,000 So again, just note the emphasis on the heart, a heart that is inclined toward God even when 395 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,120 it's in a position where the person doesn't know what to pray. 396 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,680 All they can say is, oh Father, I need help. 397 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,960 He says this is not a problem for God. 398 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,520 God can pick sense out of a confused prayer. 399 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:08,680 And I think that's a significant counter balance to, you know, we talk about prayers need to 400 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,480 be words, thoughtful words. 401 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:17,000 I think they're also going to say, you know what, there are times when your prayers aren't 402 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,880 going to resemble that and it's going to be very difficult and you might not know what 403 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:20,880 to say. 404 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,400 And that's okay too. 405 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,140 God understands that. 406 00:37:24,140 --> 00:37:26,440 God comes to us and meets us in our weakness. 407 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,880 I think the difference though between what Sibs is saying there and what I was mentioning 408 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:37,960 some of these mystical authors is Sibs is identifying that moment when, you know, you 409 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,240 can't say anything, you don't know what to say, but as a child all you can do is cry, 410 00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:44,720 oh Father, not able to express what you need. 411 00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:49,400 He's seen that as in your moment of weakness, in your moment of difficulty, when you can't 412 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:56,800 express prayer as you would like to, God is kind, God is gracious to his children, as 413 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:04,480 opposed to a scheme that would sort of frame a wordless state as the desirable destination. 414 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,640 He's saying, you know, we try to pray the way we see the psalmist modeling it. 415 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:13,040 We try to pray in this way, present your petitions to God. 416 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:18,760 But when that breaks down because life in a fallen world is hard, your heavenly Father 417 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,360 understands your weakness and he meets you in it. 418 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,480 May I ask another question on that? 419 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:28,520 I think, I don't know, one of the things I think that came to mind hearing you say that 420 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:34,640 is, and one of the questions I think that comes up quite regularly in some of the modules 421 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:40,400 I teach is the question around what if someone is unable to speak? 422 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:50,200 So what if there are particular learning differences or you're born with particular kind of physical 423 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:56,360 difficulties that mean that you're not able to speak? 424 00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:07,600 And so how does this apply to those who have children who might be autistic or have never 425 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:17,480 been able to speak or through a really awful accident or some other kind of, oh, you know, 426 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:22,440 really bad thing that's befallen them, aren't able to express themselves in this kind of 427 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:26,120 word based way in their prayer lives? 428 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:31,320 I think it can sound sometimes, and this isn't what you're saying, sometimes it can sound 429 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:37,080 like God as it makes a concession to those who are unable to use their words because 430 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:46,200 he is kind, but there is again an insertion of a superiority of words in that whilst words 431 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:52,640 are desirable and he's made us to be able to communicate and to be able to use speech 432 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:59,720 in particular ways to honor and glorify him and to speak to him and with him, how would 433 00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:08,200 you help someone who's hearing this and thinking this is great, but my husband has just had 434 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:13,680 an awful accident in the workplace and is no longer able to speak or my child has never 435 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,600 been able to learn how to talk. 436 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:23,680 And obviously there are lots of other questions there in terms of what does it mean to communicate 437 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:28,560 the gospel and what does it mean to respond in repentance and belief and to say that Jesus 438 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,880 is Lord and all of those things. 439 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,760 Just love to hear your reflections on that. 440 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:34,760 Great question. 441 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:42,360 Yeah, it's a good question and I've had these sorts of questions come up as well in teaching 442 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:50,040 contexts and in pastoral contexts and especially when, so again I think the Reformation and 443 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:58,520 form theology and the Puritans in particular, it is a word-centric piety, right, so that 444 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,800 is there so it does raise these questions and there's other questions as well. 445 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:10,200 But I think one helpful thing, a lot of the issue I think is addressed when we recognize 446 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:16,880 that to say that words are important, thoughtful words are important, that God has inspired 447 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,360 and given us a book, that His primary means of revealing Himself to His people is through 448 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:26,480 His Word, that faith comes by hearing all of these sorts of, you know, Psalm 119, I 449 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:30,640 mean there's all this, Puritans would say they have word-centered piety because they 450 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:35,840 would say Scripture promotes a word-centered vision, right. 451 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,680 So I think one helpful thing is to distinguish and recognize that to promote a word-centered 452 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:45,920 piety is not to say that the more articulate you are, the more eloquent you are, the more 453 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:47,800 godly you are. 454 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:54,220 And so once we are talking about human beings made in God's image who have this innate capacity 455 00:41:54,220 --> 00:42:01,300 for communication and language, and I know you mentioned cases where maybe that's so 456 00:42:01,300 --> 00:42:06,520 compromised but we can come to that, but once we mention that in, you know, God's image 457 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:13,900 bearers were made to communicate with each other, with God, and language is this marvelous 458 00:42:13,900 --> 00:42:20,600 means that God has given, and then you recognize, okay, that's how God is engaging with us in 459 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,840 this significant way. 460 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:28,680 That is not to then say, if I can put together a better, longer, more complicated, more intricate, 461 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:34,680 more grammatically correct, precise, vivid sentence, I am somehow at the front end of 462 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,280 spiritual development. 463 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:42,200 The key for them was, are you engaging with the promises of God? 464 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,720 Are you engaging with who He's revealed Himself to be in the Scriptures? 465 00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:55,720 And so again, when we think then about the varying capacities that we all have, they 466 00:42:55,720 --> 00:42:58,200 would be, in fact, they'd be quick to say the opposite. 467 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:03,240 They would be quick to say, again, in their constant sort of worry about hypocrisy and 468 00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:08,480 false religion and pharisaical pretense, they would be quick to point out that often some 469 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:13,880 of the people who can sort of speak the most words in the most polished, fluid way are 470 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:20,920 actually using that to deceive, and that the plain-hearted or the plain-spoken but heartfelt 471 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,680 prayer is the one that the Lord hears and honors. 472 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,880 Because again, for them, it's really about the orientation of the heart. 473 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:36,180 And so I think that helps to speak into that a bit. 474 00:43:36,180 --> 00:43:42,680 If we were talking about the sort of really extreme cases where through accident or whatever 475 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:50,680 else a person was just truly unable to engage with human language at any sort of level or 476 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:57,080 capacity, at that point I think that's a very, that's a real theological pastoral challenge. 477 00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:03,720 But at that point, I think that goes to all Christians of whatever your theological persuasion. 478 00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:10,760 I mean, I think at that point, everyone has a deep question to wrestle with, Puritans 479 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,080 included. 480 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:18,040 But even if you didn't quite put the emphasis where they do, you're still dealing with the 481 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:23,780 question of, okay, if God has revealed himself in Scripture and I have a person who can't 482 00:44:23,780 --> 00:44:26,560 engage with that, what does that mean pastorally? 483 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:30,000 How do we address that? 484 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,960 The very personal thought is maybe think about as you were asking the question and then as 485 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:35,720 Matt was responding. 486 00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:41,840 As I've gone on over the years as a Christian, I think more reflection on my own praying 487 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:48,720 is that I have, I guess, learned to be more eloquent. 488 00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:54,920 As I've come to know the Lord better and Scripture better and spent more and more time praying 489 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:59,000 with others who are eloquent in prayer. 490 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,000 I guess that's had an impact. 491 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:07,240 But as I've got older, and as you get older, and you realize there's quite a lot you can't 492 00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:12,440 do that when you thought you were going to be changing the world, is I think I spend 493 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:17,560 more time now just praying, Lord, I'm praying that same prayer again that I've brought to 494 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,440 you before. 495 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:20,640 You must be tired of hearing it. 496 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,600 I think I'm tired of seeing it. 497 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:30,120 So I just would I present this intractable situation to you. 498 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,800 Then there is that the wordless moment. 499 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:41,760 It's not entirely wordless, but that is the oh, father moment when. 500 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:47,160 So I think I'm now better with words in prayer than I used to be. 501 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:55,800 And I'm also often worse with words than I used to be in prayer in different situations. 502 00:45:55,800 --> 00:46:02,600 But probably when I, as it were, present myself to others as a prayer and I'm invited to talk 503 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,720 about praying. 504 00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:10,240 It's the smoothness and the eloquence that I present and talk about rather than the. 505 00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:16,800 Yeah, I sat for five minutes and couldn't say anything other than Lord, I'm just lifting 506 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:17,800 that up to you again. 507 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:18,800 And I really don't know what else to say. 508 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:25,720 I don't know if that feed does that in any way feed into your question? 509 00:46:25,720 --> 00:46:26,720 I don't. 510 00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:27,720 Maybe it doesn't. 511 00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:31,640 I think it's I think you've both you know, you mentioned, you know, this is the orientation 512 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:32,760 of the heart. 513 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:38,080 This isn't about, you know, fine and eloquent words. 514 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:39,400 It is about the heart, isn't it? 515 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,080 Because it's not salvation by prayer. 516 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:47,800 That's essential, I think, to that question. 517 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,760 That prayer is a gift. 518 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,480 We are able, if we're able to speak, that is a gift. 519 00:46:54,480 --> 00:47:02,440 And for those whose ability is compromised, as you've mentioned, it's not that God condescends 520 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:08,440 to meet them in that, but that He is glorified by their very existence and that they are 521 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:15,400 alive and that, you know, there is a deep faith there that even if they aren't able 522 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:24,880 to express that in words, God looks at the heart and one day they'll be with him face 523 00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:25,880 to face. 524 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:30,840 And then there'll be heavenly languages and all sorts of things going on. 525 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:35,360 So, yeah, thank you for helping us to think about that question. 526 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,760 I guess in the last kind of five minutes or so that we have, this kind of moves us on 527 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,880 to a little bit and to what does this look like a bit more in practice? 528 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,800 So how does this help us think about our quiet times? 529 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,440 Is there such a thing as a quiet time or the set times? 530 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:55,160 And yeah, how can you help me think about tomorrow morning or this evening or in the 531 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:59,840 afternoon when I'm walking on the grounds of Oak Hill and just enjoying all the, you 532 00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:01,560 know, the lush greenery? 533 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:06,160 Well, changing seasons, the lovely kind of leaves as they're falling. 534 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:11,840 How can I make, really enjoy my time with Jesus as a result of what you're saying? 535 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:12,840 Yeah, it's great. 536 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:13,840 It's great. 537 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:15,800 And that's kind of where it comes out, isn't it? 538 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:20,960 You know, it's, I mean, I think a couple of things. 539 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:27,240 First of all, when I read the Puritans and I think about my own prayer life, I am reminded 540 00:48:27,240 --> 00:48:32,680 that this is actually really, really important and that it's not box ticking because, you 541 00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:35,960 know, I was told to do this and I need to do it. 542 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:42,120 This actually is to a large extent what constitutes my relationship and communion with God. 543 00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:44,840 Again, another quote from Richard Sibbes. 544 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:50,200 He says, take away prayer and take away the life and breath of the soul. 545 00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,340 It says, take away breath and the man dies. 546 00:48:53,340 --> 00:48:57,040 As soon as the soul of a Christian begins to live, he prays. 547 00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:05,400 In other words, Sibbes is saying to be a Christian is to be a praying person, a soul that's alive, 548 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:09,480 a heart that's been reborn by you. 549 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,080 You're a new birth, you're a new creation in Christ and that new creation is going to 550 00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:14,640 be a praying creation. 551 00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:16,400 You're a prayer. 552 00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:21,520 And they underscore that in a way that encourages me and helps me to see the significance of 553 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:22,520 it. 554 00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:28,480 It leads me to want to fight for that a little bit more, to go out and make sure I'm doing 555 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,000 it and not neglecting it. 556 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:32,560 That's one. 557 00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:40,360 They also, I think, help me orient my heart around the need for prayer that is actually 558 00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,480 coming out of a place of real need. 559 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,160 And again, that warning against vain repetition. 560 00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,160 It's interesting, they warn against vain repetition. 561 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:50,240 They're sensitive to that. 562 00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:57,040 And they also are big on this idea of repeating your prayer, of coming to the Lord again and 563 00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:01,800 again and again, in a sense, until he gets, not until you get what you want, but there 564 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,960 are those parables in the New Testament out there. 565 00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:07,800 Your persistence, yeah. 566 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:09,400 And they stress that. 567 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:14,000 And sometimes those can feel like, okay, are those intention? 568 00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,760 But I think the key is the orientation of the heart. 569 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:21,800 So Tim, when you talk about sometimes I just come and say, Lord, this is the same prayer 570 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:22,800 again. 571 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,520 Here it is. 572 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,200 I think why is that not vain repetition? 573 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,360 Well, it's not vain repetition because that's actually what is on your heart. 574 00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,760 And the reason you're bringing it again and again every day is because that continues 575 00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:39,800 to be a real reflection of where you are and what you need. 576 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:41,560 And your Heavenly Father hears you. 577 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:46,560 So those sorts of things help reorientate me around. 578 00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:47,720 What am I doing when I pray? 579 00:50:47,720 --> 00:50:49,280 It's really important. 580 00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:50,840 This is your communion with God. 581 00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,600 This is the life and work of the soul. 582 00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:57,880 This is coming from the heart because it's real communication with a real personal God 583 00:50:57,880 --> 00:50:59,560 who's really there. 584 00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,420 And then thirdly, I think they're helpful. 585 00:51:02,420 --> 00:51:08,000 One thing that they do that I think is helpful, they all, not all of them, but a lot of them 586 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,600 will distinguish between two kinds of prayer. 587 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:17,720 They'll talk about a sort of set or solemn prayer and then they'll talk about a spontaneous 588 00:51:17,720 --> 00:51:19,200 sort of prayer. 589 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,800 And they say that the Christian life needs both. 590 00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:26,520 So you need set, solemn times of prayer, what we might call a quiet time, you know, where 591 00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:31,640 you're sitting down perhaps by yourself, perhaps with someone else, but you're sitting down 592 00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:34,540 and you're taking a moment to say, this is what we're doing now. 593 00:51:34,540 --> 00:51:39,240 We're communing with the Lord, Scripture, meditation, and prayer. 594 00:51:39,240 --> 00:51:44,240 And for however long you do it, they actually were surprisingly unprescriptive. 595 00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:48,280 They weren't telling you, you must do it in exactly this way for this long, but they said 596 00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:50,480 you should do it and you should try to do that every day. 597 00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:55,800 But then they said the whole day is full of this spontaneous prayer. 598 00:51:55,800 --> 00:52:01,200 A lot of them would connect it to, you know, Paul's exhortation to pray without ceasing. 599 00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:02,200 How do you do that? 600 00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:07,280 Well, it's because at each moment you're buoyed along by a real sense of dependence on the 601 00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:08,280 Lord. 602 00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:14,320 I'm not my own and each day I go, everything I'm doing, I want it to be for God's glory 603 00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:17,120 and in God's strength and not my own. 604 00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:23,480 And so I'm going to be praying at different times in short, brief ways appropriate to 605 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:25,320 the moment. 606 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,560 But they said you need both and you want both. 607 00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:33,480 And again, it's one of those things where I think a lot of, I suspect most Christians 608 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:39,720 do that naturally, right, but I find sometimes when they spell things out and they make those 609 00:52:39,720 --> 00:52:43,280 distinctions, it's a helpful reminder and helpful encouragement. 610 00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:44,760 Terrific, Matt. 611 00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:45,760 Thank you. 612 00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:51,720 Christy, final thoughts, was any of this sparking off in your mind? 613 00:52:51,720 --> 00:52:54,920 Just what privilege it is to be able to pray. 614 00:52:54,920 --> 00:53:00,840 And I think just what you're mentioning with that distinction between the set and the spontaneous 615 00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:05,320 that I just think that praying without ceasing, that's just a lovely way of just describing 616 00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:11,560 that spontaneous prayer of the relentlessness of prayer as we're in God's world, that we're 617 00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:18,080 able to respond to him and to our circumstances and lift up our hearts to him at all points. 618 00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:19,080 How about you, Tim? 619 00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:20,560 What's on your? 620 00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:26,040 This thing about meditation as the crucial middle term, I think is for myself, I think 621 00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:27,400 it's very helpful. 622 00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:32,520 I suspect you, I think one of you, who was said it earlier, a lot of Christians are probably 623 00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:37,200 doing this even if they've not been taught to do it, even if it's not been articulated 624 00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:38,360 for them. 625 00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,720 I think over the years I have absolutely grown in doing that. 626 00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:46,840 I can't actually remember anybody telling me, maybe people were and I was just not listening. 627 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,720 I'm sure I've read things around it and I had it muddled to me, but I have just found 628 00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:53,280 myself doing it. 629 00:53:53,280 --> 00:54:00,480 And for me, one thing that's meant is in the set solemn time, the quiet time, is often 630 00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:02,960 taking shorter portions of scripture. 631 00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,600 Precisely so I have time for that. 632 00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:10,640 And there's just something simple here in front of me to chew on, to meditate on before 633 00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:11,640 I turn it into prayer. 634 00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:18,560 This is less text to think about and I may well then chew. 635 00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:26,360 So I think what this is spurring me on is, yes, that's a good direction in my own praying 636 00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:34,120 life more and thinking of it more deliberately as that crucial middle between reading and 637 00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:38,040 now I really am starting to pray. 638 00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:42,760 And then also, that's the most important for myself in relation to how I talk to prayer 639 00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:43,760 to others. 640 00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:45,160 This is slightly ironic for me. 641 00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:49,480 In the church I'm a member of, I've just taught three sessions for our small group 642 00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:54,800 leaders, Bible study leaders, on prayer. 643 00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:58,680 And I don't think I use the word meditation and I don't think I particularly talked about 644 00:54:58,680 --> 00:54:59,680 this category. 645 00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:04,320 You know, I hope what I talked about was good and useful, but this is spurring me that next 646 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:09,320 time there's this absolutely something to articulate and help people think through because 647 00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:13,920 I think I'd discover lots of Christians are doing this. 648 00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:18,800 But because they don't have a name for it and therefore haven't thought it through, 649 00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:23,440 there might be a sense of, should I be doing this? 650 00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:28,480 And a lack of sense of being helped to do it better and more thoughtfully. 651 00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:29,480 We must wrap up. 652 00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:30,480 Thank you both so much. 653 00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:31,480 This has been terrific. 654 00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:32,480 Thank you. 655 00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:35,200 Matt, you mentioned a book earlier. 656 00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:36,200 Now that's not out yet. 657 00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,160 It doesn't have a title. 658 00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:41,400 So I mean, Christmas presents this year, it's going to have to wait. 659 00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:42,520 It's going to have to wait. 660 00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:43,520 Maybe next Christmas. 661 00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:49,560 Christmas 2025, 2024. 662 00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:55,680 When it's out, Oak Hill social media and he's there. 663 00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:56,680 Thumbs up. 664 00:55:56,680 --> 00:56:01,960 Our communications and digital marketing guy is all over social media when your book comes. 665 00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:04,160 I mean, big launch by the thought. 666 00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:05,160 Big launch. 667 00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:06,160 Champagne. 668 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:07,160 That's good. 669 00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:08,160 Yeah. 670 00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:09,160 Great. 671 00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,480 Can you have champagne at a Puritan book launch? 672 00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:13,320 Well, I think we've established you. 673 00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,440 You can have a lot of fun. 674 00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:19,920 Whether you need champagne to have the fun might be a debatable issue. 675 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:23,720 This has been Deep Roots podcast brought to you by Oak Hill College. 676 00:56:23,720 --> 00:56:26,160 We just have been good blessings for you in this. 677 00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:43,760 We look forward to being with you next time.