1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,760 Welcome to Deep Roots, the podcast brought to you by Oak Hill College. We're delighted to have with 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:11,680 us today Dr. Sophie Abebe. Sophie is our newest colleague here at Oak Hill and this is her first 3 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:15,680 time on the podcast. Sophie, it's wonderful to have you. My name is Tim Ward, I'm on the teaching 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:21,120 staff here. And I'm Matt Bingham, I'm also on the teaching staff. And most importantly for today, 5 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,600 Sophie Abebe. Sophie, it's been wonderful to have you at Oak Hill for the last few months. Just 6 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:29,840 tell us what you teach and a bit about yourself. Sure, it's been lovely being here. I teach the 7 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:36,080 New Testament in Greek. I'm Sophie Abebe. I finished now two years ago my PhD on one Peter 8 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:41,920 from the University of Edinburgh. I have been teaching at a school called the Ethiopian Graduate 9 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:48,240 School of Theology in Ethiopia for the past two years now. Yeah, so I'm very happy to be here. 10 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:53,440 It's great to be talking about 1 Peter. I can see why you would want to do your dissertation on it. 11 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,640 It's an incredibly rich letter, lots of encouragement for the people of God, for the church, 12 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,800 lots of tricky passages though as well. Some difficult content in here, some verses that 13 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:08,400 that aren't immediately clear. So I hope we can get into some of those as well. But before we do, 14 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:14,800 maybe to set the stage for us. Just tell us a little bit about the kind of big overarching 15 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:25,440 theme that you see kind of anchoring the letter. Right. The way I read 1 Peter, it's to see it as 16 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:35,200 contending for this idea that God's presence is now accessible through Christ. So when we look at the 17 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:41,040 image of Christ, the presentation of Christ in 1 Peter, we get that sense. It is through his death 18 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:49,120 and resurrection that believers now have access to the presence of God. And in association with that, 19 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:56,320 then 1 Peter is an invitation to live in consciousness of that presence by doing good, 20 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:03,040 by imitating Christ. So doing good is then translated in various passages, significant passages 21 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:10,400 within 1 Peter as imitating Christ and imitating God as well, because there's that text in 115 22 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:16,560 that says, be holy as I am holy. So the imitation of the holiness of God and the 23 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:24,240 imitation of Christ's non retaliatory response to suffering to his persecutors then becomes 24 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:34,160 the organizing principles. The two ideas behind 1 Peter, presence of God and then imitating God, 25 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:39,760 Christ. The presence of God with his people, imitating God in Christ. That's great. And 26 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:45,200 in a moment, we've got some of your favorite passages in 1 Peter, but I'm going to read 27 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:50,560 your favorite passages in 1 Peter. We'll look at more detail before we do just maybe touch on 28 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:57,120 something you're talking about. So you were doing a PhD at University of Edinburgh studying this in 29 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:03,280 that research university context. My understanding is that a lot of your colleagues there, professors 30 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:10,560 there would call into question the Petrine authorship of this letter and say, Peter didn't 31 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:15,840 actually write it. Christians throughout the ages, they look at it and the first line says, Peter, 32 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:23,200 the apostle of Jesus Christ. How have you sort of navigated that and where do you come out? 33 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:31,040 Right. I think when we consider arguments for Petrine authorship and arguments against, 34 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:42,640 it boils down to proclamations for things that no one can really prove. So these are not facts 35 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:49,040 that there are arguments for and against, which are both good. And then it becomes a matter of 36 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:56,560 one's view when one says Peter couldn't have written this. It then becomes more, 37 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:03,600 it's not evidence-based. It becomes more, you know, a hunch that is not justifiable to others. 38 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:12,400 And Petrine authorship has been recognized by recent commentators like Travis Williams, 39 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:20,880 who's just had published a massive commentary on 1 Peter, 2 volumes with David Horrell. So there is 40 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:27,040 room for accepting that when people reject that Peter hasn't written, it's usually something like, 41 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:32,800 oh, the Greek is too good. This fisherman couldn't have written it. But then at the same time, 42 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:40,400 we need to consider the fact that Peter is very open about having, you know, written through 43 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:47,280 a secretary, through a translator, someone other than him. That's one way the church has dealt 44 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:54,800 with the authorship question. And another is there has been about 30 years or so between his first 45 00:04:54,800 --> 00:05:00,880 calling, when Jesus first called Peter, and then the writing of 1 Peter. And also one of the earliest 46 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:10,800 readers of 1 Peter, we've got a very rich tradition that associates Peter with his epistle. So, yeah, 47 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:17,760 so the apostolic tradition that we have, the early church tradition that we have attributed to Peter. 48 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:26,640 So when you look at these things, and then certain Semitic constructions of Greek phrases, 49 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:32,560 for me, it's convincing that Peter wrote 1 Peter. Yeah. 50 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,760 Oh, so his Jewishness comes through in the language, even though it's in Greek. 51 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,440 It does. Yeah, yeah. There's that Jewishness that comes through. And then there's the 52 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:46,400 Jewishness that comes through. And then his association with Rome has been also evidenced. 53 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:52,400 And the letter is written from Rome. So Peter is associated with Rome and with Mark as well. 54 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:58,560 Yeah, he mentions it at the end of the letter. My son Mark sends his greetings. So there's all 55 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:05,600 of these internal as well as external evidence to support that. So your New Testament scholar hat on 56 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,120 is someone who looked at this in detail and looked at the secondary literature that's grown up around 57 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:16,880 it. You feel confident to say, Peter wrote this. And if I'm preaching this text, I can feel confident 58 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:22,960 saying that. Definitely. Yes. Even the level of persecution that we see in 1 Peter, when you 59 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:29,600 compare it to what's going on in Revelation, it's very different. What Peter has in mind is, 60 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:36,560 you know, the social alienation, maybe false accusation in courts, things like that. Definitely 61 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:43,280 not, you know, a government wide and imperial decree to persecute Christians. That fits with 62 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:49,760 the traditional setting of 1 Peter in the early 60s with Peter having written it. So it seems to 63 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:54,000 cohere really well. And it convinces me to say Peter wrote it. Interesting. So those more 64 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,960 widespread persecutions came in later at the time in which people who don't think it was written by 65 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,000 Peter think it was written. Exactly. And you're thinking, well, if it was written later, why 66 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:06,640 doesn't reflect those things? Exactly. Absolutely. And with his concern, when we compare it to 67 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:12,000 other writers, I think it's Hebrews that comes close. Um, when we find, you know, in chapter two, 68 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:18,960 we have this temple imagery, uh, priesthood and also sacrifice. So temple priest sacrifice, this, 69 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:26,800 um, triology, this combination, it's very rare. It's shows that Peter is dipped in Jewish culture. 70 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:33,200 Um, and so if he wrote it as the same goes when Peter, if Peter doesn't write it, then it's an 71 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:39,520 author or a group of authors, the patron school in Rome, or maybe the polio in school that wrote 72 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:45,040 this in the seventies, then why would he not mention, um, you know, the temple's destruction 73 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:51,840 or be more pronounced about the sort of suffering, the sort of, you know, eschatological meaning he 74 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,760 seems to attach with suffering. I think that would have been something he wouldn't neglect. 75 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:03,120 Um, he's gone to such length, um, to build the character of Christians in terms of Jewish, 76 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:09,280 uh, you know, Israel sacred, uh, past. So it would feel odd at presume. So there are several, 77 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:14,880 um, for me convincing reasons to consider that Peter wrote this, um, at any rate, he says he 78 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:21,440 wrote it. So there's that, um, narrative author as well. Yeah. Um, it clearly articulating that 79 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:26,960 he wrote it. Yeah. It is great, isn't it? To sit with someone who has immersed themselves in the 80 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:31,440 book of the Bible. Um, and now, I mean, we, we could feel hours and hours. We, we actually, 81 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,200 we chatted, didn't we? How are we going to do this? Cause you've got a lot on one, Peter. 82 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,120 I first of all, had the very terrible idea of let's just try and work through the whole letter 83 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:45,360 in sort of 40 minutes. And my two colleagues here to set that's too ambitious, too ambitious. 84 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:51,440 That's like a podcast series instead better idea. One of your ideas. I can't remember who you're 85 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,280 just going to pick two or three passages of your favorite passages and just give us a sense of how 86 00:08:55,280 --> 00:09:00,560 that little passage works within the overall picture that you've given us of the big thing 87 00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:07,040 here is the church lives in the presence of God and so must be Christ-like because of that 88 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:12,080 presence. So, so if he wants the first passage, you want to take us to, um, if we look at chapter 89 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:20,160 two versus, um, four to nine, um, there is this beautiful, uh, imagery and architectural 90 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:25,520 image of the temple, uh, made up of living stone stones. Why don't you read the passage? 91 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:30,400 Oh, I can. Yeah, I just read it and then go for it. All right. Um, so verse four, chapter two, 92 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:35,920 verse four, as you come to him, a living stone rejected by a man, but in the sight of God 93 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:42,480 chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house 94 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:49,120 to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 95 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:58,160 So there we have a very architectural image of an edifice. Um, there's quite a number of 96 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:04,160 arguments here. Is it the temple? Is it not? But it seems to be the temple because there he's 97 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:10,080 mentioned the purpose of this is to offer sacrifices, um, something that was done in 98 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:15,120 the temple that we find in the old Testament. And also he talks about the priesthood, a holy 99 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:22,240 priesthood taking language from Exodus. Um, so a holy priest priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices 100 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:28,560 acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Um, verse six for it stands in scripture, behold, I am laying 101 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:35,440 in Zion, a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to 102 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:40,880 shame. So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe the stone that the 103 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:46,960 builders rejected has become the cornerstone and a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense. 104 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:53,360 They stumble because they disobey the word as they were destined to do, but you are a chosen race, 105 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:59,600 a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his heart, for his own possession that you may 106 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:04,640 proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous lights. 107 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:10,320 Once you were, uh, you are not a people, but now you are God's people. Once you had not received 108 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:18,400 mercy, but now you have received mercy. So here, um, what Peter does is build, um, 109 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:26,560 um, a special imagination. It's, it's not made up imagination. It's, it's, um, a language 110 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:33,520 human geographers use with regards to thinking of space as a construction, as a production of 111 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:39,440 not just one thought or conception, but also something that is physical and real. So here 112 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:46,080 that imagery, it's built on, um, what we find in the Old Testament conceptions with the temple. 113 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:51,360 There's a priesthood offering sacrifices and then it's a physical temple. Um, and so taking that 114 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:58,160 idea, he says, you yourselves are living stones and the cornerstone, the living stone, um, is Christ. 115 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:05,440 So he describes here then, um, a corporal reality, but that's also corporeal. It's through 116 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:13,200 the embodied presence of each individual believer that this, um, spiritual edifice comes to exist. 117 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:20,640 So it's a very powerful image. So he's thinking of, um, space that is being dwelt by believers 118 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:28,560 through Christ and the believers are to consider themselves as living stones. Like the living stone 119 00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:33,840 Christ, they are rejected because that is the context that, um, the readers are in, 120 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:39,040 they are persecuted, they are maligned because of their, um, identity in Christ, because they have 121 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:46,480 become Christians. And so he's giving them this image as an invitation to think of their maligned 122 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:52,400 position, their, um, position at the periphery, you know, with the center being the dominant ones, 123 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:59,520 they're persecutors, they are at the periphery. Um, but the periphery is lo and behold, the center, 124 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:07,360 that is the space of God. So he's, um, flipping the charts, the map that, um, the world has, 125 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,520 that Rome has, uh, not just through the means of saying, you know, 126 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:18,560 Rome is at the center. Um, but he's saying whatever is at the center, the social, the norm, 127 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:24,640 what ought to be, um, that is not actually the center where the action is, where God is 128 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:31,680 in that edifice, um, where his presence dwells. So I, this is one of, um, my favorite 129 00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:37,920 parts. And I feel like it holds the key to understand the whole of one Peter. Um, if we 130 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:45,280 think of the whole of one Peter as constructing an imagined, but also real, a third space, 131 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:52,640 a space that is felt, um, embodied through our bodies, uh, but also different, then it becomes 132 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:59,360 very powerful. So a third space. Yeah. What's the, what was the third space? Um, third space, 133 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:04,640 human geographers, um, from whom, um, we take, you know, in the new Testament, there has been, 134 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:10,640 uh, our own Matthew Sleeman, um, has taken, you know, this third space, um, language, 135 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:16,320 human geography, uh, in his interpretation of the book of Acts, um, uh, Patrick Schreiner, 136 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:22,800 um, has done it for the book of Matthews. Um, and in one Peter, um, David Horrell has an essay, 137 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:27,920 although he's, is a post-colonial reading. So he's looking at how, where is the space, 138 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:34,880 um, looking at how, where is the place of from political otherness, et cetera. Um, but for me, 139 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:42,640 um, without going into this resistance discourse or the world realm for me, um, the way I read it, 140 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:50,880 Peter is drawing a third space, meaning a space that is, um, embodied felt, but also that is 141 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:58,720 used with what we bring into our conceptions. One way to look at, um, Oak Hill college would be to 142 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:05,040 say, Oh, it can be mapped. It's in the North London near South gate. Uh, and it's, you know, 143 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:14,320 it's postcode is so and so, but another way to say it is, um, Oak Hill is where I encountered God 144 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:22,800 in my classrooms. It is the space where I grappled with major life challenges. And it's a place where 145 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:29,280 I, through the encouragement of men and women, um, I came to love God more, both are equally valid. 146 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:35,760 It can be mapped. Of course it is an actual real, it's not a made up space. It can be located, 147 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:43,120 but another way of looking at it is through its impact on me or how, um, I felt and what I 148 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:52,640 experienced at a time called X, uh, while being embodied physically living in, uh, Oak Hill college. 149 00:15:52,640 --> 00:16:00,400 So there are two ways of concept conceptualizing space that, um, in this third more richer paradigm 150 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:07,440 where, you know, beyond the physical space becomes the conceptualized, what is in my head 151 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:14,880 about that space. And also the combination of this does extends beyond to say that, um, to belong to 152 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:23,200 space X, maybe Oak Hill college, or to belong to the space of God or in Christ to be a Christian 153 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:32,240 is to live, um, with the principles of a, B and C. When we look at one Peter, that space, we can 154 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:39,200 simply call it the increased space boring language from Paul, but to be more true to the text of, 155 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:44,880 um, one Peter, we can just simply call it the space of God. Um, okay. So this is interesting. 156 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:49,440 This spatial imagination is that's really interesting. Yes. Cause as you were to, as you 157 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:54,560 were using language, like what people see themselves as on the periphery or on the edges, on the 158 00:16:54,560 --> 00:17:01,120 fringes. So even Christians thinking about their place in the world, we're using like, we're using 159 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:08,800 kind of spatial language as a metaphor to describe the fact that might feel marginalized or might 160 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:15,760 feel we're in a minority or not like, don't share the values that a lot of other people seem to have. 161 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,360 If I'm getting what you're saying, you're saying Peter's he's kind of running with that. Okay. 162 00:17:21,360 --> 00:17:30,240 Let's think spatially. Yes. And then he reaches for this temple imagery and said, okay, I want 163 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:35,600 to use a really nice phrase. I won't get the words exactly right, but something like he wants, 164 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:41,520 he wants to flip the mental map that the Christians have completely around. Absolutely. 165 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:47,360 That's what he's doing. Terrific. And then in verse 11, um, as a response to this spatial 166 00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:54,080 imagery he builds, he says, beloved, I urge you, I urge you as a janitor and exiles to abstain from 167 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:59,840 the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul, keep your conduct among the Gentiles 168 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:07,360 honorable, et cetera. So he's calling now, um, Christians in he's using the identity of some 169 00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:13,120 sort of, you know, citizenship in the space of God and calling because the audience is the majority 170 00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:22,080 Gentiles. He's writing to people in Asia minor. So in Anatolia, it was an ethnic mix of different, 171 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:30,480 um, you know, people, but he's now, um, calling them by something other than Gentiles. And he's 172 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:36,480 saying, do not resemble the Gentiles, but technically speaking, the ethnic identity, 173 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:42,080 if we come down to it, these people are not Jews and therefore, because they are not Jewish, they're 174 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:49,280 they're, um, Gentiles, but here, um, in this space of God, he's giving them a supra ethnic identity. 175 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:55,440 It doesn't matter whether one is, you know, Gentile or not Jewish or not. Um, this supra 176 00:18:55,440 --> 00:19:01,520 ethnic identity is their belonging in the space of God. Um, this sort of reading is different from 177 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:08,400 earlier, um, scholarship that would see, you know, being a Christian as having our home in heaven. 178 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:14,080 We're here for the time being, uh, we're going to go back to heaven. It doesn't matter. That's not 179 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:20,080 that's not what he has in mind. It's very embodied, so embodied that he would then, um, 180 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:25,840 I mean, as in he's saying to them, the presence of God has shown up in the world. Exactly. It's not 181 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:30,400 out there. The presence of God is right here. Yes. And it's in you. And although the world looks at 182 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:37,920 you and says, you believe a bunch of nutty stuff and you're a fringe group, you, the temple was 183 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:44,160 very obviously the center of God's purposes. It's gone. And now, and now you, yes, you are that 184 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,720 center right now of God's presence and purposes in the world. Absolutely. And they're, uh, that's 185 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:53,040 going to blow your mind. It's very interesting. And the human geographers talk about the production 186 00:19:53,040 --> 00:20:01,120 of space. Um, so the propagation of space, um, and that I see here as, um, the missional call 187 00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:08,640 that Peter, um, has given. He says, um, in verse 12, keep your conduct among the Gentiles, 188 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,520 honorable so that when they speak against you as evil doors, they may see your good dips and 189 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:20,400 glorified God on the day of visitation. Now there's a number of, um, interpretation that can be behind 190 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:28,080 this text, but the mission at import that, um, Peter has is repeated throughout the later, um, 191 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:34,960 in the directions that he gives to, um, wives or slaves, et cetera. The purpose is by responding 192 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:42,400 appropriately to suffering through non retaliation and being conscious of God and God's will. Um, 193 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:48,160 people would be attracted to this, to this space of God. So it's an, uh, an invitation, a missionary 194 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:53,760 call to, um, the production of spaces to call other people into that, you know, space of God. 195 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:58,080 Okay. This is really interesting. So I think you're saying that these practical instructions 196 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,480 he goes on to give to slaves and wives and husbands, so on, and to all Christians in suffering 197 00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:08,320 is saying the presence of God is in you. You are in the presence of God right now in the world. 198 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:15,040 Here is how you live that out. And if you do, it is, that is how the Lord will call people into 199 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:20,880 his presence right here. Exactly. Exactly. So in that, there's that again, the imitation of Christ, 200 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:29,280 um, who called his S he called us through dark, us who were in utter darkness, um, to his marvelous 201 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:35,920 light. So that is something we need to immediate Christ with. Um, and he also says something along 202 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:42,480 the lines of, uh, be ready to give a response to whoever asks about the hope that is in you. 203 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:49,200 So respond in order to attract others to your space, the space of God, where God dwells. Um, 204 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:56,160 so these, um, two, you know, principles of the presence of God, um, and imitation of Christ, 205 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:01,280 um, go throughout the text. That's, that's yeah. Well, we're off reading it. 206 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,600 Thank you. Fantastic. I know we could spend longer digging into that passage, but I'm very keen to 207 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:11,440 get to the next next passage because it's one of the trickiest in, in one Peter. Maybe some people 208 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,440 think it's one of the trickiest in the whole New Testament. And before we hit record, Matt, 209 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,920 you were regaling us, weren't you with an old sermon that you had on this very passage. 210 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,240 Yes. You don't have to preach now. I say that. 211 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:30,160 Well, I might need to revise my conclusions. I don't know. We'll see you. So I did look this up. 212 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:36,320 I preach this, I don't know. I think it was back in 2013, 2012, something like that. And I was, 213 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:41,440 I was looking back on this text and I, and I found, I had dug up a quote from Martin Luther 214 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,440 on this text where he said, he thinks this is one of the most obscure passages in the whole New 215 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:51,760 Testament and he's really not sure what it means. So set us all straight. Set Martin Luther straight. 216 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:57,600 Where are we? We're in first Peter three. Are we not? For Christ also suffered once for since 217 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:03,200 the righteous for the unrighteous that he might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh, 218 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:08,480 but made alive in the spirit in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 219 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:13,120 because they formerly did not obey when God's patience waited in the presence of Noah, 220 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:19,440 while the ark was being prepared in which a few, that is eight persons were brought safely through 221 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:26,640 water. Baptism, which correspond to this now saves you not as a removal of dirt from the body, 222 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:31,920 but as an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 223 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:37,680 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God with angels, authorities and powers have 224 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:44,560 been subjected to him. So we're preparing a Bible study or a sermon on this. It's going to turn to 225 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,640 the commentaries and find pages and pages of pages going, well, there's about 18 views and let's talk 226 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:54,640 through them. So, so if you help us cut, cut to the heart of the matter. There are a number of 227 00:23:54,640 --> 00:24:02,000 difficulties. One of the first difficulties here in, well, in verse 18, when it says, 228 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:07,680 um, Christ was made alive in the spirit. What does it mean to be put to death in the flesh, 229 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:14,320 made alive in the spirit? Um, but I think this is, uh, this would follow standard, um, doctrine 230 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:20,640 that Jesus, um, Jesus' resurrection was an embodied resurrection. You know, we've got that famous 231 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:27,920 passage from, um, the gospels with Thomas having come and touched, uh, Jesus' hands. And so it's, 232 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:36,640 it's an embodied, um, yeah, uh, resurrection. And so the Holy spirit here seems to be hinted at in 233 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:45,040 verse 18. And then in verse 19, our, um, hunch is, uh, yeah, it, it, it is made certain he's, it says, 234 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:51,760 um, in which, um, or maybe in whom, um, he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison. 235 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:56,080 So just for those who don't have the Greek in front of them, because there's an absolutely 236 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:01,520 crucial little Greek phrase here, isn't it? Right. And how exactly, now I've got the NIV 237 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:08,240 2011 here, 19 begins after being made alive. Now, clearly we can't dig into all the details, 238 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,240 right? But just give us a sense of what's going on with translation there. Right. Um, I think the 239 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:18,080 NIV is trying to fill, uh, what is hinted at. They're trying to bring, um, to the forefront, 240 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:26,960 uh, you know, the clear succession of, um, actions or events that we see between verses 18 and 22. 241 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:34,960 When did, uh, you know, the resurrection occur or when did the proclamation occur? Uh, when does 242 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:40,080 the death? So here there, there seems to be a sequence that the NIV wants to, you know, 243 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:47,120 make clear for the reader. Um, so in saying after, and in adding these ideas, they are trying to 244 00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:54,320 bring out, you know, the aspect that we see, um, in the grammar of the Greek. Um, but in addition 245 00:25:54,320 --> 00:26:02,240 to that, if we say as the ESV, I'm reading from the ESV, um, when we say in which he went, then 246 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:08,480 the spirit, they are living it ambiguous enough for the interpreter to work through, but Enho, 247 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:17,040 um, I would argue would be in him, the Holy Spirit, or although it's not, um, massively 248 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:24,320 wrong. Uh, one thing we know here, Christ dies. That is event number one, put to death. Yeah. Um, 249 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:31,600 and then event number two is proclamation. So you think 19 is saying, and in the spirit, 250 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:37,360 yes, he went. Yes. Okay. That's helpful. Right. Uh, and then proclaim to this, the spirits in 251 00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:44,880 prison. So the difficulty in verse 19 is who are the spirits in prison? Because nothing up to this 252 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:52,720 point prepares us for any sort of beings in prison. So the idea of being in prison, um, has been 253 00:26:52,720 --> 00:27:00,560 debated quite a lot. Um, there are some who say that, um, here the prison, it's metaphorical, 254 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:08,080 um, the prison of sin disobedience. It's, it's a sort of sin, but it's a sort of prison, you know, 255 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:15,360 in which people get entangled. And again, um, even the idea of proclamation, is it proclamation or is 256 00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:23,520 it's preaching the good news? So is it's, um, for conversion, exactly. And then the spirits in 257 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:31,760 prison, do they refer to people who are dead? I mean, who are dead and to whom Christ then went 258 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:39,120 and gave them a second chance by, um, proclaiming to them the message of the gospel to give them a 259 00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:47,440 chance to repent. Uh, or is it something like, um, a proclamation, an announcement, an invitation 260 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:54,320 to join the kingdom of God made by Christ through the likes of Noah, because there is a sort of 261 00:27:54,320 --> 00:28:01,760 support for people who'd argue that, um, in verses 10 to 12 in chapter one, where, um, Peter tells us 262 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:08,080 that prophets in the old Testament preached not to their own, um, you know, audience to their own 263 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:15,120 contemporaries, but to people who'd come later. So he says, um, in verse 10 of chapter one, 264 00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:20,320 concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours 265 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:26,880 searched and inquired carefully. Verse 11 inquiring what person or time the spirit of Christ in them 266 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:33,280 was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. And in verse 267 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:38,480 12, it was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves, but you in the things that have 268 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:44,640 now been announced to you through those who preach the good news to you by the Holy Spirit, sent from 269 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:50,720 heaven things into which angels look too long to look. So here then proponents of this view would 270 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:58,160 argue it's through the spirit of Christ, meaning the Holy Spirit, um, that's Noah or any of the 271 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:05,040 prophets, righteous people. Am I correct? This was Augustine's view of this past. Yes. So spiritually, 272 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:11,120 Jesus in Noah back in Noah's day preaching. Yes. And this is what you preach in your sermon, 273 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:18,640 isn't it? Matt, you have come through five years and eventually came down at great length. Yes. 274 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:25,120 Yes. And you're with Augustine, which is often a good place to be. However, Sophie rates, that's 275 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,800 not what you think. Is it? I don't think so. What against Augustine, you stand against me. 276 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,120 Right now I'll go with her. Come on, Sophie, because why, you know, what, what do you, 277 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,720 what do you think this means? What do you think this is talking about for about 1500 years? 278 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:44,960 The church was convinced that Augustine's view is the correct view. Okay. Um, but in my opinion, 279 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:51,040 there are two problems with the Augustinian view. First, um, there is nowhere in the new Testament 280 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:57,440 where, um, spirits, even though here, um, you know, it says the spirits in prison, it could be 281 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:03,440 potentially human beings, but there is no, uh, occurrence in the new Testament where spirits, 282 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:10,400 um, is applied to human beings unless it is qualified in Hebrews, it says something like, 283 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:15,680 um, unjust spirits. So unless there is a qualification, some sort of adjective attached 284 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:22,480 to it, spirits has never been applied to human beings. So then, um, where does spirits appear 285 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:30,640 in the gospels? Um, spirits appears in the plural to refer to other worldly beings, demonic beings, 286 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:38,320 evil spirits. Uh, so there's that problem. One, um, second problem, um, Augustine wasn't a major 287 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:46,080 fan of one Enoch. Um, I can understand why, um, because when you are trying to, um, establish 288 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:52,720 orthodoxy and canonicity becomes a very important issue, then any sort of, you know, uh, 289 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:59,920 admission that one Enoch might be here behind, uh, one Peter can, can threaten quite a lot of 290 00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:04,640 things. So one Enoch, a Jewish text. Yes. And obviously there's a lot about that. We can't 291 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:10,560 get into now, but you, for you that stand in some sense, it stands in the background of one Peter. 292 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:15,920 Yes. What is it particularly about that that you think will help us interpret this rightly? Um, 293 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:21,200 for a long time, it was taught to be just one Peter that's behind the idea here, but other 294 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:27,680 tradition, Jewish traditions, like the book of giants is, um, seems to be behind this. There we 295 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:36,800 have, um, spirits in prison. Um, so Noah's flood came, um, as a response to, um, God having, um, 296 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:44,160 heard the prayers of the righteous, they were being subjugated by these, uh, ferocious giants 297 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:52,400 who are the offsprings of fallen angels, you know, in we've got Genesis, uh, five, um, where it says 298 00:31:52,400 --> 00:32:00,400 the sons of God, uh, met with the, um, daughters of men. So in one Jewish tradition, this resulted 299 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:06,240 in an offspring called the giants who are the Niflum. They are from Genesis six. Yes. Yeah. 300 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:13,760 Who are huge. Um, yes, sorry. Um, yeah. So they are huge, big people, um, with insatiable, um, 301 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:21,520 appetites and, um, you know, propensity to do evil, teach humanity, um, how to do evil, et cetera. 302 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:29,280 So everyone was groaning under their, um, yeah, evil deeds. And so, um, the flood came to respond 303 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:38,640 to not just evil humanity, disobedience, um, but because the level of evil has reached such a huge, 304 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:44,080 you know, there was such an avalanche of sin that God responded through the flood and the flood, 305 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:51,680 uh, destroyed unrighteous humanity, disobedient humanity. Um, but also these giants, their 306 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:58,800 destruction was partial though they were, um, they had been the bodies, they were embodied, uh, but 307 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,840 after the flood there, they lost their bodies and became spirits. And they're called spirits in 308 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:10,160 prison in these Jewish texts. Exactly. And because the flood imprisoned them in a way, 309 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:16,080 you're thinking that Peter is knowingly drawing on that language. Yes. It seems to be there. 310 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,960 Maybe not knowingly, perhaps that was the tradition that was there. Maybe he, he didn't 311 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:27,440 have the book of Enoch or Jubilees or, you know, book of giants before him. Maybe it's not a, 312 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:32,880 a conscious, you know, taking off that it's not, maybe the relationship is not genealogical, 313 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:38,560 but it's in the air around him. It's exactly in the culture of Milaio. Exactly. If someone talks 314 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:46,480 about, I don't know, BBC, it wouldn't be a surprise in this day and age. Um, so there's that idea of 315 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:53,440 spirits in prison, meaning demonic beings, evil beings. This sort of interpretation I think is 316 00:33:53,440 --> 00:34:03,200 also supported by verse 22, uh, where Peter says, uh, Christ now has post resurrection. He's, 317 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:08,480 he's talking about the employment that Christ has. He says he's at the right hand of God. 318 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:14,560 Meaning, um, you know, in his, uh, throne of majesty, uh, with angels, authorities and powers 319 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:20,800 having been subjugated to him, subjected to him, subjugated, uh, you know, him being the conqueror. 320 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:29,520 Um, so there's this, um, sort of neat, um, framework that we find here. And when we think 321 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:37,200 about why, so it follows the order, I think it does. So 19 and 20 for you are Jesus between death 322 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:44,480 and resurrection. Spiritually. Yes. And then it moves on. And in 22, we kind of picture him 323 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:52,240 now ascending, uh, uh, resurrected bodily and then ascending. Yeah. Post resurrection. So the 324 00:34:52,240 --> 00:34:59,280 entombment that we find in Ephesians two and other parts of the New Testament. And now when we think 325 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:04,960 of this, it's one of the three Christological sections in one Peter. So versus 18 to 22, 326 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:12,480 this Christological, um, section has come as a justification. What to what Peter was saying 327 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:24,960 earlier versus 13 to 17. Um, there he says basically to sum it up, um, do not leave, um, 328 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:31,360 in the terms of your former life, live, um, in good behavior, suffer for what is good, 329 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:39,120 do what is right. And then he goes on to discuss about this. Why would he, why is the atonement, 330 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:45,680 um, or the death of Christ and the resurrection and his strongman entronement relevant to what's 331 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:52,800 going on here? I feel like the same thing is going on in chapter, um, two as well. After talking 332 00:35:52,800 --> 00:36:01,200 about, you know, being, um, the necessity of being subject to others for the sake of Christ. Um, he 333 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:09,600 goes on to say from verse 21 onwards, um, for this you have been called because Christ also suffered 334 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:16,080 for you, leaving you an example. And then he talks about, um, Christ's, um, perfect death. Um, he 335 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:23,120 said it, you know, taking the metaphor of sheep. Um, so he says, you know, he was, um, reviled, 336 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:31,120 but he didn't revile back. Um, all of this happened to him. And his response was in verse 23, 337 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:39,040 um, to interest himself to the, to whom, to he, um, who judges justly. And then he says, 338 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,960 you to do this. So the famous follow in his steps. That's really interesting. That's really 339 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:51,200 helpful. So I don't think I'd seen this before in both chapter two and chapter three. Yes. He goes, 340 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,840 here are some instructions about how you must live a moral life. Yes. Not your own pagan life. 341 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:04,720 And reason because of Jesus. And in chapter two, it's, um, because he suffered because he bore our 342 00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:08,080 sins in his body on the cross. And in chapter three, he does the same here, instructions about 343 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:12,720 how you should live. Exactly. And then verse 18, it's really similar, similar, isn't it? 3 18, 344 00:37:12,720 --> 00:37:18,480 for he also suffered. Yes. But now he then adds to chapter three, what he didn't add in chapter two, 345 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:25,520 absolutely this proclamation of Christ's victory. Yes. And you're seeing that I'm afraid. Sorry, 346 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:30,800 Matt. Sorry, Augustine. And I think, sorry, Wayne Grudem in his Tindale commentary. Yeah. Uh, 347 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:36,720 not spiritually back in the days of Noah, but between crucifixion and resurrection, 348 00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:43,040 he goes spiritually proclaims the victories, one on the cross to these imprisoned spiritual beings 349 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:51,280 and then 22 into resurrection and ascension. Those bits after the cross proclamation, 350 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:57,520 ascension, resurrection, what extra, and they're not in chapter two, what extra does they add? 351 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:03,840 Do you think within what Peter's doing, what extra do they add to his, here's how you should live? 352 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:10,400 Right. Um, he's been doing this, the other, the third, um, Christological section appears in 353 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:17,040 chapter one. Yep. There again, before, um, giving, you know, his instruction on how to live, 354 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:25,440 he gives it a Christological reason. Okay. So when we look at, um, chapter one versus 18 onwards, 355 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:32,320 he talks about us having been believers, having been ransomed, um, from our futile ways, uh, 356 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:37,920 et cetera. And then he says in verse 21, uh, through him, you are believers in God who raised 357 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:43,360 him from the dead and gave him glory so that your faith and hope are in God. And so here, um, and 358 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:50,640 then he takes the image of the lamb, the ship's image. And then beginning from verse 22, he talks 359 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:56,880 about the need for responding through obedience, but, um, it's different from the Christological 360 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:02,480 section in chapter two that we just mentioned or chapter three. So each time he seems to build, 361 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:08,720 um, on what it means for Christ to have died, um, and for that death to have impacted us. 362 00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:15,040 And so this adding on or maybe going deeper theologically is something we see. So in chapter 363 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:24,000 three, the new thing that he adds, um, spirits in prison, AKA, um, sorry, mad demons, et cetera, 364 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:32,960 um, all of this then leads us to chapter five. Um, when we look at chapter five, verse, um, eight 365 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:39,360 and nine, um, there he says, he actually mentions at this point, um, you know, 366 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:48,240 the devil, um, in verse, um, 89, he says, be sober minded, be watchful. Your adversary, the devil 367 00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:54,400 pulls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour, resist him firm in your faith. 368 00:39:55,440 --> 00:40:01,840 So there's this then here, a clear articulation about, um, you know, he's at this point, 369 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:07,200 he was talking about suffering. He's writing to people who are suffering at the hands of, um, 370 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:14,720 humans, unfriendly humans who, um, consider their, um, in Christ identity to be, you know, 371 00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:22,240 a bad thing. But starting from chapter three, we see that in, in verses eight, 18 to 22, 372 00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:28,720 we see that Christ's resurrection, his death and suffering for us. So for us, it's something that 373 00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:37,120 goes through, um, these three Christological sections. Um, somehow he cites other worldly 374 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:43,680 beings. It's not a random thought. Again, in chapter five, he says, you know, um, the devil wants to 375 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:51,360 prowl up on you. So here then he is depicting the space of God being in Christ as an antagonistic 376 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:58,080 space, not only human enemies, not only, um, your neighbors are as persecutors, but the greater evil 377 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:05,840 that lies behind. Look, he's a defeated entity, you know, so other worldly beings being subjugated 378 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:14,080 through Christ bears a message of hope, um, to Christians. So behind all evil, um, this is a 379 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:21,760 very biblical idea behind all evil lies Satan, um, the demons and, you know, the other worldly 380 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:29,440 beings and the whole, um, whatever beings are, right. Let's call them. I'm tempted to say 381 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:35,840 authorities and, and powers, et cetera, taking languages from Ephesians and chapter three 22, 382 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:42,240 but, you know, demonic beings. And so the greatest sort of persecution, um, even from the devil, 383 00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:49,280 it's not grand. It hasn't been elevated to something as a substantial other. So the devil 384 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:56,000 is not depicted as there aren't many words he spares. It's not a significant other that merits 385 00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:02,880 so much consideration. He simply says, resist him, meaning because Christ has been victorious 386 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:09,600 and sits enthroned, um, having subjugated all demonic beings and went and proclaimed his victory 387 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:17,040 to exactly, exactly. So firming your faith, resist him. So resistance then becomes, um, in, 388 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:23,840 to elaborate, it becomes then living in consciousness of God because here he says 389 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:28,720 firm in your faith, knowing that the same kind of suffering are being, um, experienced by the 390 00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:36,240 brotherhood. And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace will, um, uh, himself 391 00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:42,720 restore, confirm, strengthen and establish you. So he's in a way here, um, citing one way of 392 00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:49,680 resisting the devil by being firm in our faith, faith that Christ has overcome, um, the devil 393 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:56,400 has overcome any adversity. And now evil is manageable. We can negotiate life in this 394 00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:01,760 foreign land by being conscious of the space of God, the presence of God that is with us 395 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:07,040 and by standing firm, meaning continually, um, living a life of obedience. 396 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,640 This is fantastic. And this presence of God, I think what I'm seeing really clearly, 397 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:18,560 he spells out this presence of God and what it is and how we are in it. He's very rich. You've 398 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:25,440 identified three very rich passages about Christ that cover cross. They cover what Christ does in 399 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:34,560 that often mysterious space between crucifixion and resurrection. It covers then resurrection 400 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,960 and it covers ascension and now sitting at the right hand of the father. This is fantastic. 401 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:44,160 You've given me a lot to think about. So I have a chance to preach this again after we 402 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:50,880 play this discussion. So this has been fantastically rich. It gives sense, doesn't it? Um, and then 403 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:55,280 when we look at the different things that Peter says, for example, do not, you know, 404 00:43:55,280 --> 00:44:02,720 gossip basically, or do not, you know, um, be caught stealing or doing malicious things, 405 00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:09,360 do not malign others, uh, et cetera. He's then saying, uh, being in the space of God, um, 406 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:15,680 is to live in consciousness of God. In fact, in verses, um, in chapter three, verses 18 to 22, 407 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:22,480 the difficult passage, um, in verse 20, he talks about baptism. Again, there's a lot of debates 408 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:29,440 about what is it that Peter is doing. He says, um, you know, after talking about the spirits in 409 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:35,120 prison, he says, because they formerly did not obey when God's patients waited in the days of Noah 410 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:40,640 while the ark was being prepared in which a few, that is eight persons were brought safely through 411 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:46,880 water. Baptism, which corresponds to this now saves you not as a removal of dirt from the body, 412 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:52,160 but as an appeal to God for a good conscience. So here then, when he talks about baptism, 413 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:59,920 he's doing a contrast between Noah being saved through water, that act of God's save, uh, saving 414 00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:06,240 Noah and the eight and people, his, his family, uh, meaning saving them from, from their unrighteousness 415 00:45:06,240 --> 00:45:14,160 that was among them. Um, he says, baptism correspond to this relates to this. Um, and baptism, 416 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:21,040 he says, is this, but not that. So there's this, but this, not that, but not, um, construction. 417 00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:27,040 He says, it saves you not as something, a removal of dirt. Again, there's a lot of debates about 418 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:34,240 how we can translate that, but he's saying he's comparing two things, the lesser and the greater, 419 00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:40,480 the lesser, the baptism is not just a removal of dirt, not as that, but something greater. He says, 420 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:48,080 um, it is something that will result in, um, in an appeal to God. There's so much debate here. 421 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:56,880 The way I read it, um, it's Peter is saying, uh, baptism, um, is an action, a special practice, a 422 00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:03,520 practice that the indwellers of the space of God through Christ partake in that by doing baptism, 423 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:10,640 we are proclaiming our allegiance to Christ. So it's an, a symbolic action that then unites us 424 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:16,080 through the resurrection and then the victory that he talks about in verse 22. So we are united in 425 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:21,840 Christ. So there's a lot of participation theology and works on union with Christ in one Peter. Um, 426 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:28,400 although Paul takes the, the, um, yeah, the focus, but there's still that idea. So here then he's 427 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:35,840 saying through baptism, the believer relates to God either as a, you know, as a pledge of obedience, 428 00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:42,480 perhaps spoken verbally during baptism in the first century context that we have here, uh, perhaps 429 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:50,320 through baptism, one is aligned with Christ that that person is given, um, an ability because he's 430 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:55,920 saying it's not just more the removal of, you know, sin from the body, not just the washing, 431 00:46:55,920 --> 00:47:01,600 the purity rights from the oldest summit, but something else. So the idea here is then the 432 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:09,680 removal of impurity, the removal of moral defiling force of, uh, immorality. So there's some moral, 433 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:15,360 um, on the moral sphere, something deeper going on. So either the person through baptism and that 434 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:23,520 person's union with Christ, that person is given, um, the ability to be united with Christ. One is 435 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:29,200 that or two through the very practical right of, you know, being baptized and then proclaiming, 436 00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:36,880 um, something like, um, I pledge to live in consciousness of God's presence. Then somehow 437 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:44,320 the person and God become related in a way that, um, chapter two has told us as members of God's 438 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:49,520 household, somehow through baptism, which is connected to Christ's death and resurrection, 439 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:54,800 the person relates to God, the father in a different way. It now becomes through Christ. 440 00:47:54,800 --> 00:48:00,080 That's, that's fantastic. So you're linking for really nicely there. Yeah. The, the end of chapter 441 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:05,440 three to what's been said, actually this brings us nicely full circle to where we were at the 442 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:10,720 beginning, that passage in chapter two about living stones. Sophie, this has been rich. I mean, 443 00:48:10,720 --> 00:48:15,520 we could sit here for a lot longer and I'm getting a taste of the kind of conversations we can have 444 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:20,800 with Sophie over, over coffee and, um, and the kind of riches people are going to get if their 445 00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:25,760 students here being taught one Peter, another, another new Testament scriptures by, by you. 446 00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:31,680 So thank you. This has been massively helpful. Thank you. Final question, Matt. Yeah, I think, 447 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:37,840 um, maybe for a final place to land, Sophie, we could let's step back from the, the detail 448 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:42,640 a little bit. Um, you've sat with this text for a long time. You're familiar with it before you 449 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:49,360 studied it in depth for your PhD, but now you, you've really, uh, spent time in it and with it. 450 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:56,960 What would you say are, uh, one or two of the big, uh, applications that you've taken away 451 00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:02,560 personally? How has first Peter shaped your own faith and your own walk with the Lord? 452 00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:09,440 Right. Um, at various points in my life, I felt like I was on the periphery, uh, with everyone 453 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:16,800 being at the center and me, myself wanting to be at the center, but circumstances felt like I was 454 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:23,600 pushed to the periphery. Um, this could be, you know, um, I left when I was, I left Ethiopia, 455 00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:28,640 I'm from Ethiopia. Um, I left Ethiopia to pursue undergraduate studies in Germany. 456 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:35,520 It was an international, um, university and there were so many 67, 70 countries were represented in 457 00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:43,360 the student body. Um, but at the same time, um, I was doing, uh, biochem, Cal engineering. I was one 458 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:49,200 of the handful of women there and the only Ethiopian, um, in my class, the first year, 459 00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:55,520 second year others came. So that felt like, you know, having no one to speak my mother tongue 460 00:49:55,520 --> 00:50:02,400 with my native tongue, that sort of felt like I'm on the periphery. And as a whole, the evangelical 461 00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:11,040 students body were out of, you know, a middle sized, um, university, we were a tiny minority 462 00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:16,480 that in itself, although we shared lunch on the same table, we prayed before we ate, we made, 463 00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:24,160 we made a whole big, we embodied our periphery existence. So, um, yeah, that felt like one way 464 00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:30,080 of being on the periphery again in Edinburgh, again, becoming, you know, one of the handful of 465 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:36,320 women, um, doing new system and studies and being the only person of color, you know, other, um, 466 00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:43,280 African or Brown or Latino, they were just, I could just spot two or three people, but they were in 467 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:48,960 usually, um, in world Christianities or doing theology, proper systematic theology. So that 468 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:55,360 felt like I was on the periphery among my friends. Um, I was the only one who was a mother that's in 469 00:50:55,360 --> 00:51:02,480 itself was an alienating experience. All of these peripheral situations that, um, people, 470 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:10,240 Christians find themselves in, um, is beautifully, um, dealt with in one Peter. He doesn't just 471 00:51:10,240 --> 00:51:19,120 ignore it. Um, but he redraws the map so that center and periphery become reinterpreted. 472 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:27,360 The center is where Christ is. So to have been given that invitation, uh, for me was powerful. 473 00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:33,280 And I would imagine people who are neurodivergent or people who have special needs or take care of, 474 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:39,360 um, children with special needs who always feel like, you know, I am at the periphery. This is 475 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:46,240 not what should be. I feel like one Peter is a beautiful, um, you know, invitation to re-imagine 476 00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:54,480 things. Christ is where we are, where we are is the center because of Christ. And so this periphery 477 00:51:54,480 --> 00:52:02,480 existence, this alienation then becomes, um, you know, it loses its force. So then if Christ is the 478 00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:10,080 center and me being in Christ is the center, then I'm encouraged and emboldened, um, to truly be 479 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:16,960 present in whatever spaces that I occupy, not to think of, um, where I am in terms of Ethiopian or 480 00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:23,840 non-Ethiopian, black, whites, or anything else. What Peter gives us is a supra-ethnic identity. 481 00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:30,320 Even gender doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't matter if I'm the only woman, um, in, um, you 482 00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:37,680 know, lecture halls or in conferences where Christ is there, I am to feel like I belong. That's so 483 00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:44,640 powerful. And the other thing is, um, the action orientation that we find in one Peter when he 484 00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:52,960 says, don't do this, but do this, um, want this, not that, um, he is saying, um, through Christ, 485 00:52:52,960 --> 00:53:00,640 we have been given, um, the capacity to choose what is right. Uh, we are just like Christ, 486 00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:07,200 leaving stones where God has chosen through his grace to, to embody, um, you know, so there's that, 487 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:12,560 in terms of, you know, fleshly desires is something he talks about in terms of, um, 488 00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:18,960 our grappling with sin, um, or temptations or feeling like an utter failure before Christ, 489 00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:26,720 who's done so much for us. One Peter is saying, hold up. Christ has done it. Um, in his, uh, 490 00:53:26,720 --> 00:53:33,840 grace, you have been given the ability to imitate him. So it's, it's this powerful image. I feel 491 00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:41,920 like given for Christians who tend to perhaps lose hope, uh, or, you know, punish themselves 492 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:48,400 thinking I am not worthy of Christ. He's saying through his days, he's made you worthy. He is 493 00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:55,040 with you. Um, and you've been given this ability to be conscious of God. Um, so I feel like it's a, 494 00:53:55,040 --> 00:54:02,480 a very helpful text, um, even for our type of Christians who are not living, um, in contexts 495 00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:08,160 of persecution, um, where the prime minister in Ethiopia, our prime minister is evangelical. 496 00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:14,400 So it's in fact fashionable to be evangelical. It's the reverse of being persecuted. So even for, 497 00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:21,280 um, and in London, there is no one who'd persecute us. Um, if you go to church, it's, it's, um, 498 00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:28,960 so even for us living in cultures where Christianity is not punished, um, Peter has a lot to give us. 499 00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,920 That's great. Thank you. Sophie, thank you so much. Thank you. 500 00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,280 That's the most moving ending to one of our podcasts that I can remember. It's lovely to 501 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:47,280 hear how all of that high level, sophisticated, brilliant scholarship just in the end leads to 502 00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:52,640 these life, wonderfully life transforming things for you. And, and hopefully that's certainly 503 00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:56,640 inspired me. Hopefully that will inspire others who are listening in. Be great if you could join 504 00:54:56,640 --> 00:55:10,000 us on the podcast again soon. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.