Welcome to Deep Roots, the podcast brought to you by Oak Hill College. We're delighted to have with
us today Dr. Sophie Abebe. Sophie is our newest colleague here at Oak Hill and this is her first
time on the podcast. Sophie, it's wonderful to have you. My name is Tim Ward, I'm on the teaching
staff here. And I'm Matt Bingham, I'm also on the teaching staff. And most importantly for today,
Sophie Abebe. Sophie, it's been wonderful to have you at Oak Hill for the last few months. Just
tell us what you teach and a bit about yourself. Sure, it's been lovely being here. I teach the
New Testament in Greek. I'm Sophie Abebe. I finished now two years ago my PhD on one Peter
from the University of Edinburgh. I have been teaching at a school called the Ethiopian Graduate
School of Theology in Ethiopia for the past two years now. Yeah, so I'm very happy to be here.
It's great to be talking about 1 Peter. I can see why you would want to do your dissertation on it.
It's an incredibly rich letter, lots of encouragement for the people of God, for the church,
lots of tricky passages though as well. Some difficult content in here, some verses that
that aren't immediately clear. So I hope we can get into some of those as well. But before we do,
maybe to set the stage for us. Just tell us a little bit about the kind of big overarching
theme that you see kind of anchoring the letter. Right. The way I read 1 Peter, it's to see it as
contending for this idea that God's presence is now accessible through Christ. So when we look at the
image of Christ, the presentation of Christ in 1 Peter, we get that sense. It is through his death
and resurrection that believers now have access to the presence of God. And in association with that,
then 1 Peter is an invitation to live in consciousness of that presence by doing good,
by imitating Christ. So doing good is then translated in various passages, significant passages
within 1 Peter as imitating Christ and imitating God as well, because there's that text in 115
that says, be holy as I am holy. So the imitation of the holiness of God and the
imitation of Christ's non retaliatory response to suffering to his persecutors then becomes
the organizing principles. The two ideas behind 1 Peter, presence of God and then imitating God,
Christ. The presence of God with his people, imitating God in Christ. That's great. And
in a moment, we've got some of your favorite passages in 1 Peter, but I'm going to read
your favorite passages in 1 Peter. We'll look at more detail before we do just maybe touch on
something you're talking about. So you were doing a PhD at University of Edinburgh studying this in
that research university context. My understanding is that a lot of your colleagues there, professors
there would call into question the Petrine authorship of this letter and say, Peter didn't
actually write it. Christians throughout the ages, they look at it and the first line says, Peter,
the apostle of Jesus Christ. How have you sort of navigated that and where do you come out?
Right. I think when we consider arguments for Petrine authorship and arguments against,
it boils down to proclamations for things that no one can really prove. So these are not facts
that there are arguments for and against, which are both good. And then it becomes a matter of
one's view when one says Peter couldn't have written this. It then becomes more,
it's not evidence-based. It becomes more, you know, a hunch that is not justifiable to others.
And Petrine authorship has been recognized by recent commentators like Travis Williams,
who's just had published a massive commentary on 1 Peter, 2 volumes with David Horrell. So there is
room for accepting that when people reject that Peter hasn't written, it's usually something like,
oh, the Greek is too good. This fisherman couldn't have written it. But then at the same time,
we need to consider the fact that Peter is very open about having, you know, written through
a secretary, through a translator, someone other than him. That's one way the church has dealt
with the authorship question. And another is there has been about 30 years or so between his first
calling, when Jesus first called Peter, and then the writing of 1 Peter. And also one of the earliest
readers of 1 Peter, we've got a very rich tradition that associates Peter with his epistle. So, yeah,
so the apostolic tradition that we have, the early church tradition that we have attributed to Peter.
So when you look at these things, and then certain Semitic constructions of Greek phrases,
for me, it's convincing that Peter wrote 1 Peter. Yeah.
Oh, so his Jewishness comes through in the language, even though it's in Greek.
It does. Yeah, yeah. There's that Jewishness that comes through. And then there's the
Jewishness that comes through. And then his association with Rome has been also evidenced.
And the letter is written from Rome. So Peter is associated with Rome and with Mark as well.
Yeah, he mentions it at the end of the letter. My son Mark sends his greetings. So there's all
of these internal as well as external evidence to support that. So your New Testament scholar hat on
is someone who looked at this in detail and looked at the secondary literature that's grown up around
it. You feel confident to say, Peter wrote this. And if I'm preaching this text, I can feel confident
saying that. Definitely. Yes. Even the level of persecution that we see in 1 Peter, when you
compare it to what's going on in Revelation, it's very different. What Peter has in mind is,
you know, the social alienation, maybe false accusation in courts, things like that. Definitely
not, you know, a government wide and imperial decree to persecute Christians. That fits with
the traditional setting of 1 Peter in the early 60s with Peter having written it. So it seems to
cohere really well. And it convinces me to say Peter wrote it. Interesting. So those more
widespread persecutions came in later at the time in which people who don't think it was written by
Peter think it was written. Exactly. And you're thinking, well, if it was written later, why
doesn't reflect those things? Exactly. Absolutely. And with his concern, when we compare it to
other writers, I think it's Hebrews that comes close. Um, when we find, you know, in chapter two,
we have this temple imagery, uh, priesthood and also sacrifice. So temple priest sacrifice, this,
um, triology, this combination, it's very rare. It's shows that Peter is dipped in Jewish culture.
Um, and so if he wrote it as the same goes when Peter, if Peter doesn't write it, then it's an
author or a group of authors, the patron school in Rome, or maybe the polio in school that wrote
this in the seventies, then why would he not mention, um, you know, the temple's destruction
or be more pronounced about the sort of suffering, the sort of, you know, eschatological meaning he
seems to attach with suffering. I think that would have been something he wouldn't neglect.
Um, he's gone to such length, um, to build the character of Christians in terms of Jewish,
uh, you know, Israel sacred, uh, past. So it would feel odd at presume. So there are several,
um, for me convincing reasons to consider that Peter wrote this, um, at any rate, he says he
wrote it. So there's that, um, narrative author as well. Yeah. Um, it clearly articulating that
he wrote it. Yeah. It is great, isn't it? To sit with someone who has immersed themselves in the
book of the Bible. Um, and now, I mean, we, we could feel hours and hours. We, we actually,
we chatted, didn't we? How are we going to do this? Cause you've got a lot on one, Peter.
I first of all, had the very terrible idea of let's just try and work through the whole letter
in sort of 40 minutes. And my two colleagues here to set that's too ambitious, too ambitious.
That's like a podcast series instead better idea. One of your ideas. I can't remember who you're
just going to pick two or three passages of your favorite passages and just give us a sense of how
that little passage works within the overall picture that you've given us of the big thing
here is the church lives in the presence of God and so must be Christ-like because of that
presence. So, so if he wants the first passage, you want to take us to, um, if we look at chapter
two versus, um, four to nine, um, there is this beautiful, uh, imagery and architectural
image of the temple, uh, made up of living stone stones. Why don't you read the passage?
Oh, I can. Yeah, I just read it and then go for it. All right. Um, so verse four, chapter two,
verse four, as you come to him, a living stone rejected by a man, but in the sight of God
chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house
to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
So there we have a very architectural image of an edifice. Um, there's quite a number of
arguments here. Is it the temple? Is it not? But it seems to be the temple because there he's
mentioned the purpose of this is to offer sacrifices, um, something that was done in
the temple that we find in the old Testament. And also he talks about the priesthood, a holy
priesthood taking language from Exodus. Um, so a holy priest priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices
acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Um, verse six for it stands in scripture, behold, I am laying
in Zion, a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to
shame. So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe the stone that the
builders rejected has become the cornerstone and a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.
They stumble because they disobey the word as they were destined to do, but you are a chosen race,
a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his heart, for his own possession that you may
proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous lights.
Once you were, uh, you are not a people, but now you are God's people. Once you had not received
mercy, but now you have received mercy. So here, um, what Peter does is build, um,
um, a special imagination. It's, it's not made up imagination. It's, it's, um, a language
human geographers use with regards to thinking of space as a construction, as a production of
not just one thought or conception, but also something that is physical and real. So here
that imagery, it's built on, um, what we find in the Old Testament conceptions with the temple.
There's a priesthood offering sacrifices and then it's a physical temple. Um, and so taking that
idea, he says, you yourselves are living stones and the cornerstone, the living stone, um, is Christ.
So he describes here then, um, a corporal reality, but that's also corporeal. It's through
the embodied presence of each individual believer that this, um, spiritual edifice comes to exist.
So it's a very powerful image. So he's thinking of, um, space that is being dwelt by believers
through Christ and the believers are to consider themselves as living stones. Like the living stone
Christ, they are rejected because that is the context that, um, the readers are in,
they are persecuted, they are maligned because of their, um, identity in Christ, because they have
become Christians. And so he's giving them this image as an invitation to think of their maligned
position, their, um, position at the periphery, you know, with the center being the dominant ones,
they're persecutors, they are at the periphery. Um, but the periphery is lo and behold, the center,
that is the space of God. So he's, um, flipping the charts, the map that, um, the world has,
that Rome has, uh, not just through the means of saying, you know,
Rome is at the center. Um, but he's saying whatever is at the center, the social, the norm,
what ought to be, um, that is not actually the center where the action is, where God is
in that edifice, um, where his presence dwells. So I, this is one of, um, my favorite
parts. And I feel like it holds the key to understand the whole of one Peter. Um, if we
think of the whole of one Peter as constructing an imagined, but also real, a third space,
a space that is felt, um, embodied through our bodies, uh, but also different, then it becomes
very powerful. So a third space. Yeah. What's the, what was the third space? Um, third space,
human geographers, um, from whom, um, we take, you know, in the new Testament, there has been,
uh, our own Matthew Sleeman, um, has taken, you know, this third space, um, language,
human geography, uh, in his interpretation of the book of Acts, um, uh, Patrick Schreiner,
um, has done it for the book of Matthews. Um, and in one Peter, um, David Horrell has an essay,
although he's, is a post-colonial reading. So he's looking at how, where is the space,
um, looking at how, where is the place of from political otherness, et cetera. Um, but for me,
um, without going into this resistance discourse or the world realm for me, um, the way I read it,
Peter is drawing a third space, meaning a space that is, um, embodied felt, but also that is
used with what we bring into our conceptions. One way to look at, um, Oak Hill college would be to
say, Oh, it can be mapped. It's in the North London near South gate. Uh, and it's, you know,
it's postcode is so and so, but another way to say it is, um, Oak Hill is where I encountered God
in my classrooms. It is the space where I grappled with major life challenges. And it's a place where
I, through the encouragement of men and women, um, I came to love God more, both are equally valid.
It can be mapped. Of course it is an actual real, it's not a made up space. It can be located,
but another way of looking at it is through its impact on me or how, um, I felt and what I
experienced at a time called X, uh, while being embodied physically living in, uh, Oak Hill college.
So there are two ways of concept conceptualizing space that, um, in this third more richer paradigm
where, you know, beyond the physical space becomes the conceptualized, what is in my head
about that space. And also the combination of this does extends beyond to say that, um, to belong to
space X, maybe Oak Hill college, or to belong to the space of God or in Christ to be a Christian
is to live, um, with the principles of a, B and C. When we look at one Peter, that space, we can
simply call it the increased space boring language from Paul, but to be more true to the text of,
um, one Peter, we can just simply call it the space of God. Um, okay. So this is interesting.
This spatial imagination is that's really interesting. Yes. Cause as you were to, as you
were using language, like what people see themselves as on the periphery or on the edges, on the
fringes. So even Christians thinking about their place in the world, we're using like, we're using
kind of spatial language as a metaphor to describe the fact that might feel marginalized or might
feel we're in a minority or not like, don't share the values that a lot of other people seem to have.
If I'm getting what you're saying, you're saying Peter's he's kind of running with that. Okay.
Let's think spatially. Yes. And then he reaches for this temple imagery and said, okay, I want
to use a really nice phrase. I won't get the words exactly right, but something like he wants,
he wants to flip the mental map that the Christians have completely around. Absolutely.
That's what he's doing. Terrific. And then in verse 11, um, as a response to this spatial
imagery he builds, he says, beloved, I urge you, I urge you as a janitor and exiles to abstain from
the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul, keep your conduct among the Gentiles
honorable, et cetera. So he's calling now, um, Christians in he's using the identity of some
sort of, you know, citizenship in the space of God and calling because the audience is the majority
Gentiles. He's writing to people in Asia minor. So in Anatolia, it was an ethnic mix of different,
um, you know, people, but he's now, um, calling them by something other than Gentiles. And he's
saying, do not resemble the Gentiles, but technically speaking, the ethnic identity,
if we come down to it, these people are not Jews and therefore, because they are not Jewish, they're
they're, um, Gentiles, but here, um, in this space of God, he's giving them a supra ethnic identity.
It doesn't matter whether one is, you know, Gentile or not Jewish or not. Um, this supra
ethnic identity is their belonging in the space of God. Um, this sort of reading is different from
earlier, um, scholarship that would see, you know, being a Christian as having our home in heaven.
We're here for the time being, uh, we're going to go back to heaven. It doesn't matter. That's not
that's not what he has in mind. It's very embodied, so embodied that he would then, um,
I mean, as in he's saying to them, the presence of God has shown up in the world. Exactly. It's not
out there. The presence of God is right here. Yes. And it's in you. And although the world looks at
you and says, you believe a bunch of nutty stuff and you're a fringe group, you, the temple was
very obviously the center of God's purposes. It's gone. And now, and now you, yes, you are that
center right now of God's presence and purposes in the world. Absolutely. And they're, uh, that's
going to blow your mind. It's very interesting. And the human geographers talk about the production
of space. Um, so the propagation of space, um, and that I see here as, um, the missional call
that Peter, um, has given. He says, um, in verse 12, keep your conduct among the Gentiles,
honorable so that when they speak against you as evil doors, they may see your good dips and
glorified God on the day of visitation. Now there's a number of, um, interpretation that can be behind
this text, but the mission at import that, um, Peter has is repeated throughout the later, um,
in the directions that he gives to, um, wives or slaves, et cetera. The purpose is by responding
appropriately to suffering through non retaliation and being conscious of God and God's will. Um,
people would be attracted to this, to this space of God. So it's an, uh, an invitation, a missionary
call to, um, the production of spaces to call other people into that, you know, space of God.
Okay. This is really interesting. So I think you're saying that these practical instructions
he goes on to give to slaves and wives and husbands, so on, and to all Christians in suffering
is saying the presence of God is in you. You are in the presence of God right now in the world.
Here is how you live that out. And if you do, it is, that is how the Lord will call people into
his presence right here. Exactly. Exactly. So in that, there's that again, the imitation of Christ,
um, who called his S he called us through dark, us who were in utter darkness, um, to his marvelous
light. So that is something we need to immediate Christ with. Um, and he also says something along
the lines of, uh, be ready to give a response to whoever asks about the hope that is in you.
So respond in order to attract others to your space, the space of God, where God dwells. Um,
so these, um, two, you know, principles of the presence of God, um, and imitation of Christ,
um, go throughout the text. That's, that's yeah. Well, we're off reading it.
Thank you. Fantastic. I know we could spend longer digging into that passage, but I'm very keen to
get to the next next passage because it's one of the trickiest in, in one Peter. Maybe some people
think it's one of the trickiest in the whole New Testament. And before we hit record, Matt,
you were regaling us, weren't you with an old sermon that you had on this very passage.
Yes. You don't have to preach now. I say that.
Well, I might need to revise my conclusions. I don't know. We'll see you. So I did look this up.
I preach this, I don't know. I think it was back in 2013, 2012, something like that. And I was,
I was looking back on this text and I, and I found, I had dug up a quote from Martin Luther
on this text where he said, he thinks this is one of the most obscure passages in the whole New
Testament and he's really not sure what it means. So set us all straight. Set Martin Luther straight.
Where are we? We're in first Peter three. Are we not? For Christ also suffered once for since
the righteous for the unrighteous that he might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh,
but made alive in the spirit in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
because they formerly did not obey when God's patience waited in the presence of Noah,
while the ark was being prepared in which a few, that is eight persons were brought safely through
water. Baptism, which correspond to this now saves you not as a removal of dirt from the body,
but as an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God with angels, authorities and powers have
been subjected to him. So we're preparing a Bible study or a sermon on this. It's going to turn to
the commentaries and find pages and pages of pages going, well, there's about 18 views and let's talk
through them. So, so if you help us cut, cut to the heart of the matter. There are a number of
difficulties. One of the first difficulties here in, well, in verse 18, when it says,
um, Christ was made alive in the spirit. What does it mean to be put to death in the flesh,
made alive in the spirit? Um, but I think this is, uh, this would follow standard, um, doctrine
that Jesus, um, Jesus' resurrection was an embodied resurrection. You know, we've got that famous
passage from, um, the gospels with Thomas having come and touched, uh, Jesus' hands. And so it's,
it's an embodied, um, yeah, uh, resurrection. And so the Holy spirit here seems to be hinted at in
verse 18. And then in verse 19, our, um, hunch is, uh, yeah, it, it, it is made certain he's, it says,
um, in which, um, or maybe in whom, um, he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison.
So just for those who don't have the Greek in front of them, because there's an absolutely
crucial little Greek phrase here, isn't it? Right. And how exactly, now I've got the NIV
2011 here, 19 begins after being made alive. Now, clearly we can't dig into all the details,
right? But just give us a sense of what's going on with translation there. Right. Um, I think the
NIV is trying to fill, uh, what is hinted at. They're trying to bring, um, to the forefront,
uh, you know, the clear succession of, um, actions or events that we see between verses 18 and 22.
When did, uh, you know, the resurrection occur or when did the proclamation occur? Uh, when does
the death? So here there, there seems to be a sequence that the NIV wants to, you know,
make clear for the reader. Um, so in saying after, and in adding these ideas, they are trying to
bring out, you know, the aspect that we see, um, in the grammar of the Greek. Um, but in addition
to that, if we say as the ESV, I'm reading from the ESV, um, when we say in which he went, then
the spirit, they are living it ambiguous enough for the interpreter to work through, but Enho,
um, I would argue would be in him, the Holy Spirit, or although it's not, um, massively
wrong. Uh, one thing we know here, Christ dies. That is event number one, put to death. Yeah. Um,
and then event number two is proclamation. So you think 19 is saying, and in the spirit,
yes, he went. Yes. Okay. That's helpful. Right. Uh, and then proclaim to this, the spirits in
prison. So the difficulty in verse 19 is who are the spirits in prison? Because nothing up to this
point prepares us for any sort of beings in prison. So the idea of being in prison, um, has been
debated quite a lot. Um, there are some who say that, um, here the prison, it's metaphorical,
um, the prison of sin disobedience. It's, it's a sort of sin, but it's a sort of prison, you know,
in which people get entangled. And again, um, even the idea of proclamation, is it proclamation or is
it's preaching the good news? So is it's, um, for conversion, exactly. And then the spirits in
prison, do they refer to people who are dead? I mean, who are dead and to whom Christ then went
and gave them a second chance by, um, proclaiming to them the message of the gospel to give them a
chance to repent. Uh, or is it something like, um, a proclamation, an announcement, an invitation
to join the kingdom of God made by Christ through the likes of Noah, because there is a sort of
support for people who'd argue that, um, in verses 10 to 12 in chapter one, where, um, Peter tells us
that prophets in the old Testament preached not to their own, um, you know, audience to their own
contemporaries, but to people who'd come later. So he says, um, in verse 10 of chapter one,
concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours
searched and inquired carefully. Verse 11 inquiring what person or time the spirit of Christ in them
was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. And in verse
12, it was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves, but you in the things that have
now been announced to you through those who preach the good news to you by the Holy Spirit, sent from
heaven things into which angels look too long to look. So here then proponents of this view would
argue it's through the spirit of Christ, meaning the Holy Spirit, um, that's Noah or any of the
prophets, righteous people. Am I correct? This was Augustine's view of this past. Yes. So spiritually,
Jesus in Noah back in Noah's day preaching. Yes. And this is what you preach in your sermon,
isn't it? Matt, you have come through five years and eventually came down at great length. Yes.
Yes. And you're with Augustine, which is often a good place to be. However, Sophie rates, that's
not what you think. Is it? I don't think so. What against Augustine, you stand against me.
Right now I'll go with her. Come on, Sophie, because why, you know, what, what do you,
what do you think this means? What do you think this is talking about for about 1500 years?
The church was convinced that Augustine's view is the correct view. Okay. Um, but in my opinion,
there are two problems with the Augustinian view. First, um, there is nowhere in the new Testament
where, um, spirits, even though here, um, you know, it says the spirits in prison, it could be
potentially human beings, but there is no, uh, occurrence in the new Testament where spirits,
um, is applied to human beings unless it is qualified in Hebrews, it says something like,
um, unjust spirits. So unless there is a qualification, some sort of adjective attached
to it, spirits has never been applied to human beings. So then, um, where does spirits appear
in the gospels? Um, spirits appears in the plural to refer to other worldly beings, demonic beings,
evil spirits. Uh, so there's that problem. One, um, second problem, um, Augustine wasn't a major
fan of one Enoch. Um, I can understand why, um, because when you are trying to, um, establish
orthodoxy and canonicity becomes a very important issue, then any sort of, you know, uh,
admission that one Enoch might be here behind, uh, one Peter can, can threaten quite a lot of
things. So one Enoch, a Jewish text. Yes. And obviously there's a lot about that. We can't
get into now, but you, for you that stand in some sense, it stands in the background of one Peter.
Yes. What is it particularly about that that you think will help us interpret this rightly? Um,
for a long time, it was taught to be just one Peter that's behind the idea here, but other
tradition, Jewish traditions, like the book of giants is, um, seems to be behind this. There we
have, um, spirits in prison. Um, so Noah's flood came, um, as a response to, um, God having, um,
heard the prayers of the righteous, they were being subjugated by these, uh, ferocious giants
who are the offsprings of fallen angels, you know, in we've got Genesis, uh, five, um, where it says
the sons of God, uh, met with the, um, daughters of men. So in one Jewish tradition, this resulted
in an offspring called the giants who are the Niflum. They are from Genesis six. Yes. Yeah.
Who are huge. Um, yes, sorry. Um, yeah. So they are huge, big people, um, with insatiable, um,
appetites and, um, you know, propensity to do evil, teach humanity, um, how to do evil, et cetera.
So everyone was groaning under their, um, yeah, evil deeds. And so, um, the flood came to respond
to not just evil humanity, disobedience, um, but because the level of evil has reached such a huge,
you know, there was such an avalanche of sin that God responded through the flood and the flood,
uh, destroyed unrighteous humanity, disobedient humanity. Um, but also these giants, their
destruction was partial though they were, um, they had been the bodies, they were embodied, uh, but
after the flood there, they lost their bodies and became spirits. And they're called spirits in
prison in these Jewish texts. Exactly. And because the flood imprisoned them in a way,
you're thinking that Peter is knowingly drawing on that language. Yes. It seems to be there.
Maybe not knowingly, perhaps that was the tradition that was there. Maybe he, he didn't
have the book of Enoch or Jubilees or, you know, book of giants before him. Maybe it's not a,
a conscious, you know, taking off that it's not, maybe the relationship is not genealogical,
but it's in the air around him. It's exactly in the culture of Milaio. Exactly. If someone talks
about, I don't know, BBC, it wouldn't be a surprise in this day and age. Um, so there's that idea of
spirits in prison, meaning demonic beings, evil beings. This sort of interpretation I think is
also supported by verse 22, uh, where Peter says, uh, Christ now has post resurrection. He's,
he's talking about the employment that Christ has. He says he's at the right hand of God.
Meaning, um, you know, in his, uh, throne of majesty, uh, with angels, authorities and powers
having been subjugated to him, subjected to him, subjugated, uh, you know, him being the conqueror.
Um, so there's this, um, sort of neat, um, framework that we find here. And when we think
about why, so it follows the order, I think it does. So 19 and 20 for you are Jesus between death
and resurrection. Spiritually. Yes. And then it moves on. And in 22, we kind of picture him
now ascending, uh, uh, resurrected bodily and then ascending. Yeah. Post resurrection. So the
entombment that we find in Ephesians two and other parts of the New Testament. And now when we think
of this, it's one of the three Christological sections in one Peter. So versus 18 to 22,
this Christological, um, section has come as a justification. What to what Peter was saying
earlier versus 13 to 17. Um, there he says basically to sum it up, um, do not leave, um,
in the terms of your former life, live, um, in good behavior, suffer for what is good,
do what is right. And then he goes on to discuss about this. Why would he, why is the atonement,
um, or the death of Christ and the resurrection and his strongman entronement relevant to what's
going on here? I feel like the same thing is going on in chapter, um, two as well. After talking
about, you know, being, um, the necessity of being subject to others for the sake of Christ. Um, he
goes on to say from verse 21 onwards, um, for this you have been called because Christ also suffered
for you, leaving you an example. And then he talks about, um, Christ's, um, perfect death. Um, he
said it, you know, taking the metaphor of sheep. Um, so he says, you know, he was, um, reviled,
but he didn't revile back. Um, all of this happened to him. And his response was in verse 23,
um, to interest himself to the, to whom, to he, um, who judges justly. And then he says,
you to do this. So the famous follow in his steps. That's really interesting. That's really
helpful. So I don't think I'd seen this before in both chapter two and chapter three. Yes. He goes,
here are some instructions about how you must live a moral life. Yes. Not your own pagan life.
And reason because of Jesus. And in chapter two, it's, um, because he suffered because he bore our
sins in his body on the cross. And in chapter three, he does the same here, instructions about
how you should live. Exactly. And then verse 18, it's really similar, similar, isn't it? 3 18,
for he also suffered. Yes. But now he then adds to chapter three, what he didn't add in chapter two,
absolutely this proclamation of Christ's victory. Yes. And you're seeing that I'm afraid. Sorry,
Matt. Sorry, Augustine. And I think, sorry, Wayne Grudem in his Tindale commentary. Yeah. Uh,
not spiritually back in the days of Noah, but between crucifixion and resurrection,
he goes spiritually proclaims the victories, one on the cross to these imprisoned spiritual beings
and then 22 into resurrection and ascension. Those bits after the cross proclamation,
ascension, resurrection, what extra, and they're not in chapter two, what extra does they add?
Do you think within what Peter's doing, what extra do they add to his, here's how you should live?
Right. Um, he's been doing this, the other, the third, um, Christological section appears in
chapter one. Yep. There again, before, um, giving, you know, his instruction on how to live,
he gives it a Christological reason. Okay. So when we look at, um, chapter one versus 18 onwards,
he talks about us having been believers, having been ransomed, um, from our futile ways, uh,
et cetera. And then he says in verse 21, uh, through him, you are believers in God who raised
him from the dead and gave him glory so that your faith and hope are in God. And so here, um, and
then he takes the image of the lamb, the ship's image. And then beginning from verse 22, he talks
about the need for responding through obedience, but, um, it's different from the Christological
section in chapter two that we just mentioned or chapter three. So each time he seems to build,
um, on what it means for Christ to have died, um, and for that death to have impacted us.
And so this adding on or maybe going deeper theologically is something we see. So in chapter
three, the new thing that he adds, um, spirits in prison, AKA, um, sorry, mad demons, et cetera,
um, all of this then leads us to chapter five. Um, when we look at chapter five, verse, um, eight
and nine, um, there he says, he actually mentions at this point, um, you know,
the devil, um, in verse, um, 89, he says, be sober minded, be watchful. Your adversary, the devil
pulls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour, resist him firm in your faith.
So there's this then here, a clear articulation about, um, you know, he's at this point,
he was talking about suffering. He's writing to people who are suffering at the hands of, um,
humans, unfriendly humans who, um, consider their, um, in Christ identity to be, you know,
a bad thing. But starting from chapter three, we see that in, in verses eight, 18 to 22,
we see that Christ's resurrection, his death and suffering for us. So for us, it's something that
goes through, um, these three Christological sections. Um, somehow he cites other worldly
beings. It's not a random thought. Again, in chapter five, he says, you know, um, the devil wants to
prowl up on you. So here then he is depicting the space of God being in Christ as an antagonistic
space, not only human enemies, not only, um, your neighbors are as persecutors, but the greater evil
that lies behind. Look, he's a defeated entity, you know, so other worldly beings being subjugated
through Christ bears a message of hope, um, to Christians. So behind all evil, um, this is a
very biblical idea behind all evil lies Satan, um, the demons and, you know, the other worldly
beings and the whole, um, whatever beings are, right. Let's call them. I'm tempted to say
authorities and, and powers, et cetera, taking languages from Ephesians and chapter three 22,
but, you know, demonic beings. And so the greatest sort of persecution, um, even from the devil,
it's not grand. It hasn't been elevated to something as a substantial other. So the devil
is not depicted as there aren't many words he spares. It's not a significant other that merits
so much consideration. He simply says, resist him, meaning because Christ has been victorious
and sits enthroned, um, having subjugated all demonic beings and went and proclaimed his victory
to exactly, exactly. So firming your faith, resist him. So resistance then becomes, um, in,
to elaborate, it becomes then living in consciousness of God because here he says
firm in your faith, knowing that the same kind of suffering are being, um, experienced by the
brotherhood. And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace will, um, uh, himself
restore, confirm, strengthen and establish you. So he's in a way here, um, citing one way of
resisting the devil by being firm in our faith, faith that Christ has overcome, um, the devil
has overcome any adversity. And now evil is manageable. We can negotiate life in this
foreign land by being conscious of the space of God, the presence of God that is with us
and by standing firm, meaning continually, um, living a life of obedience.
This is fantastic. And this presence of God, I think what I'm seeing really clearly,
he spells out this presence of God and what it is and how we are in it. He's very rich. You've
identified three very rich passages about Christ that cover cross. They cover what Christ does in
that often mysterious space between crucifixion and resurrection. It covers then resurrection
and it covers ascension and now sitting at the right hand of the father. This is fantastic.
You've given me a lot to think about. So I have a chance to preach this again after we
play this discussion. So this has been fantastically rich. It gives sense, doesn't it? Um, and then
when we look at the different things that Peter says, for example, do not, you know,
gossip basically, or do not, you know, um, be caught stealing or doing malicious things,
do not malign others, uh, et cetera. He's then saying, uh, being in the space of God, um,
is to live in consciousness of God. In fact, in verses, um, in chapter three, verses 18 to 22,
the difficult passage, um, in verse 20, he talks about baptism. Again, there's a lot of debates
about what is it that Peter is doing. He says, um, you know, after talking about the spirits in
prison, he says, because they formerly did not obey when God's patients waited in the days of Noah
while the ark was being prepared in which a few, that is eight persons were brought safely through
water. Baptism, which corresponds to this now saves you not as a removal of dirt from the body,
but as an appeal to God for a good conscience. So here then, when he talks about baptism,
he's doing a contrast between Noah being saved through water, that act of God's save, uh, saving
Noah and the eight and people, his, his family, uh, meaning saving them from, from their unrighteousness
that was among them. Um, he says, baptism correspond to this relates to this. Um, and baptism,
he says, is this, but not that. So there's this, but this, not that, but not, um, construction.
He says, it saves you not as something, a removal of dirt. Again, there's a lot of debates about
how we can translate that, but he's saying he's comparing two things, the lesser and the greater,
the lesser, the baptism is not just a removal of dirt, not as that, but something greater. He says,
um, it is something that will result in, um, in an appeal to God. There's so much debate here.
The way I read it, um, it's Peter is saying, uh, baptism, um, is an action, a special practice, a
practice that the indwellers of the space of God through Christ partake in that by doing baptism,
we are proclaiming our allegiance to Christ. So it's an, a symbolic action that then unites us
through the resurrection and then the victory that he talks about in verse 22. So we are united in
Christ. So there's a lot of participation theology and works on union with Christ in one Peter. Um,
although Paul takes the, the, um, yeah, the focus, but there's still that idea. So here then he's
saying through baptism, the believer relates to God either as a, you know, as a pledge of obedience,
perhaps spoken verbally during baptism in the first century context that we have here, uh, perhaps
through baptism, one is aligned with Christ that that person is given, um, an ability because he's
saying it's not just more the removal of, you know, sin from the body, not just the washing,
the purity rights from the oldest summit, but something else. So the idea here is then the
removal of impurity, the removal of moral defiling force of, uh, immorality. So there's some moral,
um, on the moral sphere, something deeper going on. So either the person through baptism and that
person's union with Christ, that person is given, um, the ability to be united with Christ. One is
that or two through the very practical right of, you know, being baptized and then proclaiming,
um, something like, um, I pledge to live in consciousness of God's presence. Then somehow
the person and God become related in a way that, um, chapter two has told us as members of God's
household, somehow through baptism, which is connected to Christ's death and resurrection,
the person relates to God, the father in a different way. It now becomes through Christ.
That's, that's fantastic. So you're linking for really nicely there. Yeah. The, the end of chapter
three to what's been said, actually this brings us nicely full circle to where we were at the
beginning, that passage in chapter two about living stones. Sophie, this has been rich. I mean,
we could sit here for a lot longer and I'm getting a taste of the kind of conversations we can have
with Sophie over, over coffee and, um, and the kind of riches people are going to get if their
students here being taught one Peter, another, another new Testament scriptures by, by you.
So thank you. This has been massively helpful. Thank you. Final question, Matt. Yeah, I think,
um, maybe for a final place to land, Sophie, we could let's step back from the, the detail
a little bit. Um, you've sat with this text for a long time. You're familiar with it before you
studied it in depth for your PhD, but now you, you've really, uh, spent time in it and with it.
What would you say are, uh, one or two of the big, uh, applications that you've taken away
personally? How has first Peter shaped your own faith and your own walk with the Lord?
Right. Um, at various points in my life, I felt like I was on the periphery, uh, with everyone
being at the center and me, myself wanting to be at the center, but circumstances felt like I was
pushed to the periphery. Um, this could be, you know, um, I left when I was, I left Ethiopia,
I'm from Ethiopia. Um, I left Ethiopia to pursue undergraduate studies in Germany.
It was an international, um, university and there were so many 67, 70 countries were represented in
the student body. Um, but at the same time, um, I was doing, uh, biochem, Cal engineering. I was one
of the handful of women there and the only Ethiopian, um, in my class, the first year,
second year others came. So that felt like, you know, having no one to speak my mother tongue
with my native tongue, that sort of felt like I'm on the periphery. And as a whole, the evangelical
students body were out of, you know, a middle sized, um, university, we were a tiny minority
that in itself, although we shared lunch on the same table, we prayed before we ate, we made,
we made a whole big, we embodied our periphery existence. So, um, yeah, that felt like one way
of being on the periphery again in Edinburgh, again, becoming, you know, one of the handful of
women, um, doing new system and studies and being the only person of color, you know, other, um,
African or Brown or Latino, they were just, I could just spot two or three people, but they were in
usually, um, in world Christianities or doing theology, proper systematic theology. So that
felt like I was on the periphery among my friends. Um, I was the only one who was a mother that's in
itself was an alienating experience. All of these peripheral situations that, um, people,
Christians find themselves in, um, is beautifully, um, dealt with in one Peter. He doesn't just
ignore it. Um, but he redraws the map so that center and periphery become reinterpreted.
The center is where Christ is. So to have been given that invitation, uh, for me was powerful.
And I would imagine people who are neurodivergent or people who have special needs or take care of,
um, children with special needs who always feel like, you know, I am at the periphery. This is
not what should be. I feel like one Peter is a beautiful, um, you know, invitation to re-imagine
things. Christ is where we are, where we are is the center because of Christ. And so this periphery
existence, this alienation then becomes, um, you know, it loses its force. So then if Christ is the
center and me being in Christ is the center, then I'm encouraged and emboldened, um, to truly be
present in whatever spaces that I occupy, not to think of, um, where I am in terms of Ethiopian or
non-Ethiopian, black, whites, or anything else. What Peter gives us is a supra-ethnic identity.
Even gender doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't matter if I'm the only woman, um, in, um, you
know, lecture halls or in conferences where Christ is there, I am to feel like I belong. That's so
powerful. And the other thing is, um, the action orientation that we find in one Peter when he
says, don't do this, but do this, um, want this, not that, um, he is saying, um, through Christ,
we have been given, um, the capacity to choose what is right. Uh, we are just like Christ,
leaving stones where God has chosen through his grace to, to embody, um, you know, so there's that,
in terms of, you know, fleshly desires is something he talks about in terms of, um,
our grappling with sin, um, or temptations or feeling like an utter failure before Christ,
who's done so much for us. One Peter is saying, hold up. Christ has done it. Um, in his, uh,
grace, you have been given the ability to imitate him. So it's, it's this powerful image. I feel
like given for Christians who tend to perhaps lose hope, uh, or, you know, punish themselves
thinking I am not worthy of Christ. He's saying through his days, he's made you worthy. He is
with you. Um, and you've been given this ability to be conscious of God. Um, so I feel like it's a,
a very helpful text, um, even for our type of Christians who are not living, um, in contexts
of persecution, um, where the prime minister in Ethiopia, our prime minister is evangelical.
So it's in fact fashionable to be evangelical. It's the reverse of being persecuted. So even for,
um, and in London, there is no one who'd persecute us. Um, if you go to church, it's, it's, um,
so even for us living in cultures where Christianity is not punished, um, Peter has a lot to give us.
That's great. Thank you. Sophie, thank you so much. Thank you.
That's the most moving ending to one of our podcasts that I can remember. It's lovely to
hear how all of that high level, sophisticated, brilliant scholarship just in the end leads to
these life, wonderfully life transforming things for you. And, and hopefully that's certainly
inspired me. Hopefully that will inspire others who are listening in. Be great if you could join
us on the podcast again soon. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.