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Hello and welcome to Deep Roots, a conversation about theology and ministry brought to you by Oak Hill College.

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My name is Andrew Nicholls, I'm Director of Pastoral Care and I'm joined today by on my left

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Kristi Mayer, hello, good to be with you.

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It's great to have you Kristi. And our special guest in the podcast today is a relative new

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coming to the College but really not a guest at all, already very much belongs here, it's our new

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Principal James Robson. James, welcome to you.

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Thank you very much, great to be here.

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Well you really are hugely welcome here, we're delighted to have you and we wanted just to have

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a few minutes to chat with you. I've heard by other people about the things that you care about,

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that the College cares about in terms of theological education, the kinds of hopes and dreams we might

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have for how the College can serve the Church. James, let me start with this one, you've had no

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warning of these questions but you left a ministry that you were feeling, beginning to feel very

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settled in and no doubt felt very fruitful, it served thousands of people through the Keswick

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Convention. What was it about theological education that drew you to what in one sense feels like a

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much smaller place, much smaller ministry? That's a great question. It goes back quite a long time.

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So I was converted as a student in the 1980s and I then went to theological college after working

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with IBM for a few years and it was a bit of a disappointment in honesty for me and I

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left in 1994 and then went to work in the church just down the road from Oak Hill here in Christchurch

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Crockfosters and as part of that I got involved with a network of younger ministers, Christian ministers

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and we went away to this conference together, about a hundred of us I suppose, and someone at

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that meeting stood up and said who's had a good experience with theological college and not a single

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hand went up and then they said and who are you thinking about going into theological education

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and not a single hand went up. He said well there you are then and it really struck me that these

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are really important places and I heard John Stott speak in 1998 in a little event and he said the

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health of the church around the world depends on the health of its colleges and there was that

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strong sense then if I don't who does? I'd be fortunate enough to have done Greek as one of my

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undergraduate subjects so I learned Hebrew as a student at the theological college and so few

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evangelicals did any biblical languages at all and so I thought well who else can step into this

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and if we don't like what's going on in churches then and we don't like what's going on in colleges

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then we have to go back to the source and I also chatted with, it sounds like name dropping, it's not

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I wanted to ask big questions, ask Jim Packer the question and you know he basically said the

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theologian or the college is a bit like a plumber they're trying to make sure that good water goes

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to the church because down the track it's out of the colleges that churches drink the water so you

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want to make sure that go upstream to the very beginning of that so I had a passionate sense

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of vocation for theological education in the mid-90s soon after I've been converted and then

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started training for ministry. And you started as a theological educator here in fact I think I was

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one of your first students who taught me Hebrew, please don't test me on it again as you did in

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those days but you have then you taught here and have then been in other places widening your sense

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of experience tell us just a little bit about some of that background. So in honest I really

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fell into this role it was amazing God's kindness and I suppose I had that sense of do what others

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can't and won't do and people weren't really thinking about theology education and in the

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mid-90s there was a new principal here at Oak Hill, David Peterson and he came to the church

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where I was at in Cockfosters and he said come and do some further study here and amazingly the then

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bishop of Edmonton helped fund it which was extraordinary back then because and so I started

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doing a actually a B fill because I was ill for my theology finals I started teaching at Oak Hill

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with no theology degree whatsoever. Did we know that at the time? I'm not sure you did. That's a fascinating bit of information.

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So I was started doing a bachelor of philosophy a dissertation bachelor's degree to try because I

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completed all my study in Oxford at Wycliffe Hall but I hadn't taken the finals and that then became

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an M fill and then David Peterson said would you come and join the faculty and I didn't know what to do

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so I said well okay so I sort of fell into this and I think it was on the back of teaching my first

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Hebrew class with you and so I had nine extraordinary years here and it was just an extraordinary

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privilege to be with a bunch of amazing students and amazing colleagues and that real sense of can do

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rather than can't do and so much of the evangelicalism in this country had been I am what I am in spite of my

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theological education and there was a real sense to actually I couldn't we go to a place where I say I am what I am

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because of my training it can be a real winner and it can really make a difference to ministry

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and I watched that and people going out and serving all over the place it was such an incredible privilege

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that was in 2000 2009 and what happened from 2009 so I then went from here to be the senior

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tutor at Wycliffe Hall in Oxford that was a massive culture shock and it was really really

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interesting because they're two evangelical colleges trying to do the same kind of thing

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but they were so different in lots of ways and so that was a really really hard learning experience

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it wasn't helped by the fact that I fractured my spine just as I left Oak Hill to go and teach there

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so I was off sick for the first six months of six weeks and was in a back brace for three months I couldn't pick up a book

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but it was really interesting because here you're on one campus site people of were funding their way

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to stay for an extra year whereas in Oxford you're much more permeable the boundaries because people

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coming and going and people in the university and people coming through Oxford which was really a very

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different kind of feeling so it had a lot of stimulus to it but it maybe lacked the intensity

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and focus that came from being more like a greenhouse environment here at Oak Hill so

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and people weren't that motivated for the most part it was really interesting culturally and trying

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because they were doing stuff in the university with students or that kind of thing and people

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couldn't wait to get out which is no wonder this is a great thing but it was just very interesting

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culturally but I learned an enormous amount being part of the faculty in Oxford teaching Hebrew in

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the university and Old Testament as well as just seeing a different way of operating a different

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setting that sense of imposter syndromes turning up and Oxford is an amazing place it's a very quirky

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place as well and there's a certain kind of attitude which I found difficult as well it was like

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slightly we know best we know and I'd come from Oak Hill which was an extraordinary place

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and seeing the calibre of the students and the calibre that were coming out and I sort of wouldn't

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hear a word of criticism for from the university or from anyone at Fort Oak Hill. So then fast

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forwarding a few years you went through you went to Keswick was that directly afterwards?

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Yes I was worked at Wycliffe from 2010 to 2016 and during that time some friends actually one

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guy who was Chief Executive of Enpower for a time one of the big energy companies who I was a prayer

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partner within Oxford and he said you've got some leadership gifts you ever thought about leading

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something and I'd watched lots and lots of colleges imploding or exploding evangelical colleges and

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that was just for me immensely sad and I thought Lord I don't know whether I've got the right

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gifts and skill and heart but it's the kind of who else does and will so when a friend of mine

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who's now in Australia and a little support group they're part of I was chatting about the role at

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Keswick he said yeah I think you should give it a go it's not an obvious move from being a teacher

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in Oxford at Senior Teacher Wycliffe Hall to being Ministry Director of Keswick Ministries you're

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moving out of the academic world in some ways but I loved their Keswick's heart first of all for a generous

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spirit in the sense that it was clearly evangelical but it was a for you culture it was a generous

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heart but reaching across a broad evangelical world which I loved as well it cared about

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Christlikeness and that really mattered a lot to me because I'd watched things in lots of churches

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I thought I'm not really very keen on and we need if we're not Christ like we've got nothing

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and then it was chanced from the other side to think do you know could I if heart appetite to

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lead something is that something and try it in that kind of environment and this friend said you know

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probably if you're 51 which I was then you've probably got two jobs inside you if you gave five

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to seven years to Keswick then maybe something else might come after that which extraordinarily

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in God's economy he did so what brought you back sorry I'm here the end of this story yeah so um

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I found Keswick working with Keswick Ministries both an incredible privilege but really hard

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I walked into various storms um particularly with the town of Keswick um and had a crash

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course in PR there was of course Covid my wife had breast cancer and we were part of doing a big

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eight million pound fundraising project and moving the convention from one site to another in Keswick

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and um some team changes and some were ready for that change and some were not so it was a

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very demanding time and it was I guess November 22 having sort of come through some of those things

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that I rang the chair of the board at um so actually a monthly call with the chair of the

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board of Keswick and I said do you know Jeremy's Jeremy McCoy the first time in six years I feel

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in a spacious place and then I got a call from Oak Hill saying would you think about coming

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back here to Oak Hill um and I said to the Lord what do you mean there's a fire over there what

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this is work to do over here I've just taken my oxygen mask off and what do you mean go and

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serve in that setting um and you know because I knew that there was obviously pressure on residential

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training and um just the demands of a theological college so it was a kind of um I talked to various

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friends and they all said go for it and I just had a strong sense of conviction that it was the

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right thing and to do and there are it's I suppose the Lord Sunset Lord had prepared because I've

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done the wider church network world led an organization and something about knowing the

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culture and the values and the feel of that I've been involved in PhD in the academy and so on

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I did experience the theological education and New Oak Hill so there was a sense of breadth of those

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things and seems well I made myself available and if I wanted that's great if not that's fine

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it's the Lord's business yeah well it seems like God has waven many threads together to bring you

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here and um as I say we're glad to have you indeed you all you said something I'd love to draw you

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out a little bit on the thing you loved about the Keswick culture was it was very generous and a

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for you culture and what's how is that going to shape what you want Oak Hill to be um and perhaps

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and perhaps the the church um if Oak Hill is trying to deliver clean water to the churches what

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what does generosity look like so that's a great question so the clean water church can be both a

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theological thing but also a relational thing but I initially I was thinking about the theological

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but in terms of the generosity of heart for me it came out of Romans 8 and when Paul says if God is

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for us who can be against us and if you stop to pause and think of what that means in practice

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that means that if someone else is a brother or sister in Christ God is for them and if God is

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for them what's my default posture towards someone else and it must be a for you culture so they're

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God's beloved child they're made in his image they're precious therefore what's my posture is

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treat people with dignity and love and kindness and respect because that's what God is like and

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that's people made in God's image and in fact that came to me very much wind the clock back a

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little bit at the four in Keswick there was one person in Keswick who was from the town who was

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very critical of me and of the convention and at one moment in one of our staff meetings someone

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said something about this guy and I said well this isn't who we are this person's made in God's image

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and we need to speak about people with dignity and respect of course we frustrated and difficult

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but that's the foundational thing look I got that wrong lots and I wish I'd do better at that

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but that's my heart so I think what does that look like in practice on the ground it's I give

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people the benefit of the doubt I want to understand their world and to listen deeply to them and

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understand them rather than being quick to make knee-jerk judgments and reflections on who they

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are or what their motives or what they meant by saying that and I just want to linger that bit

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longer and understand because for the vast vast majority of time people just need understanding

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and listening to and they feel if they're not heard then people start getting frustrated or

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behaving in ways that's what's like you know we all do we all human beings we all do in ways that

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in other days we wouldn't behave like and you're thinking well it's no good just saying that

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behavior is not good you have to go back behind and think what are we doing to generate that kind

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of situation so it was that kind of for you culture that's not the same as being nice in

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the sense that you're only seven nice things because sometimes you have to say hard things

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but people know that your fundamental orientation is that you care for the person and you want the

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best for them and that's that's my heart and passion how do you pass that on to to students

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during their time here well I think first of all modeling it so you can you can only model it by

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picking genuine interest in their welfare genuine interest in them as people made in God's image

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listening and understanding and spending time with and engaging with and then gently because

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it's gently because you know encouraging people to do the same in their contexts and to and to

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coach people that's why one of the things I love about residential training is you've got a chance

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to work over a longer period of time with people and just to journey with them and help people to

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come to that place you actually I can trust you I can trust this place I can know this is a good

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place where I can be vulnerable and open and unpack some of the things that maybe I've not

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talked about before not worked through before and to work through those in a way in a in a good

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safe place where you can work those things through and navigate those so you're better equipped to

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serve the church just hearing you saying some of these things about um you know trusting particular

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places I think one of the questions that I'm asked quite a bit is in in the light of the wider

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instances of kind of church abuse and scandals in other institutions and organizations and

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parachurch organizations a whole host of things is how do I know that I can trust entrust myself to

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this another Christian institution for say you know three years or so um because you know we're

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residential as well so it means living on site it's not just zooming in and in in light of that

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loss of confidence just generally that is felt um it'd be great to hear just some of your reflections

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on on how you know some of the things that you've just spoken about what would you like to say to

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someone who might be listening to this and thinking you know I'd quite like to go to you know college

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but oh gosh how do I know that they're just not going to be exactly the same as everyone else

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that I've read about or that I've personally experienced yeah what kind of things would you

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want to share with them yeah I think it can be both because it could be both that or someone who's

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allowed to carry on in certain kinds of ways in the wrong kinds of ways so it's both those

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things um no institution is perfect number one because we're all a bunch of sinful people but

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there are still things that you can do in ways you can operate that um because you have a passion

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for the Lord I do think there's a fundamental question about kindness is one thing and humility

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is the other humility is putting your hand up when you get something wrong and um so cultivating that

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at every level that it's okay to say sorry I was talking to someone ministering a church who said

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he'd been involved in Christian ministry for 12 years he'd never heard a church leader apologize

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it was a major crisis for them just to realize that the cultures he'd been part of and sometimes

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led in had been um so unhealthy in that sense so that I want to put my hand up I want to know not

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um I sent an email last week to a church of England official and it was sharper than it should

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have been I can lots of reasons why I might have done it I was thrilled that someone raised it with

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me they'd read and I said I first of all when I spoke to church for your minister I said the

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first person I said before I go any further I want to apologize to you I'm I said it's something I

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should not have said it was not okay I'm very sorry I owe an apology full stop there are actually a

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bunch of reasons I could have talked about like pressure of email that's not relevant because

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I'm sorry about or I'm sorry if or I'm sorry that you feel they're not real apologies the only

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apologies you just take ownership and you you acknowledge it you regret it and you disown it

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and you know until and try and put it right that's anything else is not a proper apology

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and so that's the first thing is that that's got to be everywhere that we operate

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but that means that for it to be safe to do that you've got to know that that's something

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welcoming that would be jumped on so therefore it's about a cultural thing it's about saying we're

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a learning culture not a blame culture if people are okay to put their hands up and say that

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and and that but that needs to be developed and grown over a period of time it doesn't happen

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overnight and there's one person who I used to be mentored by said you can tell a culture by the

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best thing you celebrate and the worst thing you tolerate and that's for all of us it's then you

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can't impose it is what you cultivate and celebrate and I celebrate when someone says you know I got

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something wrong I'm very sorry because I think that's only then have we got a chance for it to

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be a safe place to be open and to be vulnerable to develop trust and we need to be look to be

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authentic and trustworthy that's what it's about because if we're not that people long after long

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after people have left their ministry settings people have forgotten what you did they've forgotten

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what you said they will remember who you were and that's it's who we are in Christ is the most

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important thing of course we want pure theology going to the church because they go hand in hand

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but one thing is really I'm getting a bit carried away because I really care passionately about this

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one thing really saddened me is we had so much emphasis over the years on right theology but as

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far as I can see right theology leads to right practice and if our practice isn't right our

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theology must be wrong but no one seems to make that reverse engineering jump and say what have

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I got wrong in my theology somewhere that means like that I behave like this and no one calls me

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out and this is okay well I want to say that I really appreciated the fact that when I said

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something in a meeting that you heard and I hadn't noticed that it sounded unkind you were kind

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enough graciously to point out to me what I'd said so that I could take ownership and say sorry

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and I really appreciate that because it's there's an authenticity about you saying what's the

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the the worst thing we tolerate and that implies in a kind way being being willing to

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have those conversations but to have those you've got to do for me you've got to do that out of a

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place of a kindness which is you've got someone's best interests at heart you're not point score

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you're not skull you know it's and that you're willing to hear every bit of that yourself and

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that's part you know it's not just here I am as the new principal the new boss telling you all so

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and so what should and shouldn't happen I want this to be a collectively owned thing because

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that's what the values are something that's collectively owned and not imposed and you

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can't impose them you can encourage them and foster them and and you have to lead by example

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on them but you can't impose them and I saw that in Keswick it was an immense privilege to work

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with the team in Keswick talked with the questions why on earth I came here it was incredibly sad to

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leave I love them all right it's incredibly sad to leave but it was really special to see be part

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it was a real privilege part of that ministry and to see the Lord bless it amazingly you alluded to

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the your understanding that there are a lot of pressures on residential theological training

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and we we have students who aren't residential we have part-time students we have and we're so

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glad to have them as well but do you want to expand a little bit on on what are your thoughts

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so far on how to keep helping people see the value of full-time expensive residential I mean

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relationally expensive if people are going to move and and in some sense disconnect and and

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and pile their things into a van and come here for a time and but certainly also financially

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expensive yeah how are you beginning to pass that one out and and and engage with people about it

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so I that's a great question there's so much to say I mean

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if you have the chance to do so do residentially and there are amazing bursaries enable that to

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happen I'd really encourage it but I certainly wouldn't want to be if the oh well in that case

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what's their point in learning and growing because he wants me a place he wants people who

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is as well thought through with the gifts the opportunities the Lord has given to go as far as

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we can go with the things that we've got and the gifts that we've got so I'm absolutely not a kind

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of a residential what's the word um it's either this or nothing yeah you know it's just that

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somehow you've um you're not worth if you haven't done this it's absolutely not the case

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but if you can and do um why do I think it's really precious um I think you can do some things that

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you can't otherwise do so it's cost is it costly in time it's costly in terms of disruption in

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money and in some cases for some it might be too costly not to in the sense they're too

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as I mentioned one of the things is about character formation and growth the chance to

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work over a sustained period of time with a personal tutor you're slightly outside of the

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networks and the zone comfort zones that you're in which is actually a healthy way my daughter

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just come through Sandhurst and um she it was a one-year residential training she's now joined

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the royal tank regiment she's on she's and you got her number if you really if you cause trouble

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I know it's so um but they recognise that there's some things that you can accomplish and do there

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in that sustained focused out of your environment it's not you can't do ongoing training in your

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context she's got more training specific to tank regiment now where she is but it's much more

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there are certain things where you're out of the setting you're in you have a chance of some sense

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of critical distance you can cover subjects and do things you wouldn't otherwise do I mean for her

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it was four nights sleepless and digging trenches in the middle of the brecon beacons or whatever

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and so fair play to her and but the sense in which you have a chance to engage with a broader

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faculty who all have got love christ slightly different perspectives on different things

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different personalities how does unity work how do you how do they agree well and disagree well

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how do you see some of the relational things modeled that in other settings in churches you'll

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fragment over how do you work those things through so you've got that kind of thing about how you

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can grow it's like you grow in your character you can you can have the chance to focus on

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church history what how was the holy spirit inspiring people from the past and how did they

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tackle similar things in the past and what can we learn from that and why are we where we are today

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and how can we learn from that and what have people thought about this in the past what does

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the doctrines that have come together how are they fashioned and how does that shape the reading of

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the bible and how does this reading the bible shape my doctrine a chance to linger and pause

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in those places chance to learn biblical languages and the reality is for hundreds of years it's got

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a proven track record of delivering and people one of the things I noticed about trying to find

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speakers for the keswick convention was I would often come back to oak hill graduates or people

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who've done residential training not because I'm um think that's the only thing but because they

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were they had the depth and the character and the ability to communicate well in a consistent kind

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of way and so of course others can do that from other settings but but so that was something about

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why I think it's really worth and you make lifelong friends as part of it I'm in a

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student support group of five of us we have whatsapp this morning in fact we're all over the world and

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sustain each other ministry over 30 years and all of us have been out of the ministry but for that

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group and of course if you're married and you've got spouse you can also have spouses and kids can

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also connect with others as well make those friends we know I guess um we're coming towards

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the end but um we know that many people watching this podcast will have um already some association

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with a college and they might be wondering um uh how they could be praying for us or how they could

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be rooting for us or or is there anything that they can do if they're already feeling quite

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enthusiastic about perhaps some of the things you've said what what uh what would be helpful

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what would what might you ask of them you know thank you well thank you so much I mean praying

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would be the one thing um because again I've watched from keswick I should have known before

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then really the Lord does amazing things when I'm at the end of my tether and he's got he's got

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things and I should have wished other than that earlier and so on but I've seen him do amazing

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things almost to stand back and watch and take your frail things that you bring maybe survive

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loads to fish you know bring that little thing and God does something amazing so praying is

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great and we're grateful for people who provide support financially but the particular thing is

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is students and just you know make use of this extraordinary resource that's here I think that's

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what I'd say it's just great colleagues that are here and a great library a lovely location and just

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make use of it and there are different ways that can be done not just through formal training we're

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developing some continuing professional development offerings as well and check out the website

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have grab a leaflet pass it around to someone and because we really have a heart to make a

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difference for 950 000 Christians in London and it's such an opportunity that's here to nothing

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of the rest of the world well James thank you very much indeed I think probably said it too many

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times during this podcast but we are so pleased that you're here thank you very much for for

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leaving because it bringing your family up reading and yeah I'm really enjoying your leadership here

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there are lots of other previous episodes of this podcast available online and look out for our

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next one which will be coming out hopefully in about a month's time thanks so much for listening