1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,840 Well, welcome again to Deep Roots, a conversation about theology and ministry brought to you by us 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:11,280 here at Oak Hill College. My name is Tim Ward, I'm one of the teaching staff here and I'm joined 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:18,800 today by on my right, David Baldwin. I teach cross-cultural mission and I'm just leaving 4 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:23,600 that post actually and passing that on to Chris Howells and Jeremy. 5 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:29,520 Now Jeremy, welcome. It is a delight to have you here. You are in fact a former student of this 6 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:35,440 illustrious college. Indeed. From back in the day, so when were you here? 2007 to 2009 and 7 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,800 enormously grateful for the time I had studying here. And now just tell us a little about what 8 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,800 you've been doing in the years since leaving college because that's going to be our focus 9 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:50,720 here on this podcast. Yeah, sure. So I had the privilege of living in the Kurdistan region of 10 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:59,440 Iraq for 11 years with my family and I set up a language consultancy there. So I was teaching 11 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:04,320 English. I also had the opportunity to teach Kurdology, which in case people have misheard 12 00:01:04,320 --> 00:01:10,720 me has not got to do with hyper heart bypass operations. I thought it was like Kurds and 13 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,240 Wales or something. Yeah, nor kiddology, which is something else. Yeah. 14 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:21,040 Kurdology. That's the first term I have ever heard that word. Yeah, yeah. So that's studying 15 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:29,280 the history and culture of the Kurds. And that was an amazing privilege to see a kind of rudimentary 16 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:38,720 textbook. And but yeah, it was pretty basic. And so I got to really set the syllabus for myself and 17 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:45,360 always just had to keep a few years ahead of my students as I taught myself the subject. And that 18 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:51,680 was just fascinating. Yeah. Wonderful. What led you to have that particular focus on and an 19 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:59,440 interest in Kurdish people? Well, yeah, it's kind of a much discussed question among Kurdish friends, 20 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,200 because some of the reasons why people might end up in Kurdistan would be, okay, maybe they're 21 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:10,720 married to Kurd or they're involved in espionage or the oil industry, politics or military or 22 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:20,480 serving God. And my wife is British and yeah, I wasn't interested in those other things. 23 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:30,720 I was there serving the Lord Jesus and glad to explain that it was because he changed my life 24 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:37,840 as a 17 year old and gave me a world vision that I ended up serving in a fairly, you know, 25 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:47,760 5,000 kilometres away. But you know, I always saw my work as, you know, I wanted to love my neighbour 26 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:54,720 to love my neighbour as myself in a holistic way. And so some of the things, you know, people looked 27 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:59,120 at social media posts and things that I put out and kind of saw why you're involved in lots of 28 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:04,080 things. And I think that's just, well, I think that human beings are, you know, relational beings, 29 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,840 we're spiritual beings, we're physical beings. So, you know, my latest visit, I was very busy 30 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:14,320 organising a half marathon round the lake and it was the first of its kind in Tahuk. Real pleasure. 31 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:20,400 I made it round in just under two hours. And I think it was a really good thing for the city, 32 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:26,240 you know, to encourage people to get out there, enjoy the great outdoors, keep fit, make friends, 33 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:32,960 have some healthy competition. So yeah, lots of those things. But you know, whether you eat or 34 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:38,240 you drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. One Corinthians. And so that was 35 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:44,960 kind of my approach. That, yeah, I mean, developing a nation's language increasingly, I got more 36 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,840 involved in developing Kurdish rather than teaching English, lots of people teaching English, but 37 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:55,440 not many people thinking the one of the keys to this nation's development is that they develop 38 00:03:55,440 --> 00:04:01,120 their own language. Right. Okay. Now we're going to go, aren't we going to get into some particular 39 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:09,200 questions? Are there any things about Kurdish people and Kurdistan that we're going to need 40 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:13,760 to kind of have this crucial background so that we tune in well to something? I mean, one of them, 41 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:19,920 one of them is the sad reality that you've already said a controversial word, Tim, which is Kurdistan. 42 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:24,320 Okay. So even here in North London, well, here in North London, a lot of people would be very proud 43 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:29,600 of the word Kurdistan, but it is incredibly controversial, sadly. I mean, it's ridiculous, 44 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:36,880 but because a star is just a region, it's the region of the Kurds, you know, it's a geographical 45 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:44,000 descriptor, but it's become this hugely controversial term in Iran. They have a, 46 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,480 it's just one of the recognized provinces of Iran is called Kurdistan. So that's not really 47 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:54,800 controversial, but for Kurds to say, I'm from Kurdistan when they're referring to places in 48 00:04:54,800 --> 00:05:02,720 Southeastern Turkey is enough to really make Turkish people irate. And yet there shouldn't be a battle 49 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:09,600 over what you call that area, you know? So that's one thing by way of orientation that's important 50 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:15,840 to realize. Some people can get very aggro when you talk about Kurdistan. But another thing, I mean, 51 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:21,600 you should put it out there that Kurds are very shaped by their understanding of history. 52 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:26,560 They see themselves as descendants of the ancient Medes, you know, so Bible readers know about 53 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:36,480 the Medes and the Persians, Darius the Great, for example. And so they actually date year zero, 54 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:44,160 not as the birth of Jesus or the flight of Muhammad, but actually the unification of the Median tribes. 55 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:52,080 And so you always add 700 to the AED date to get what is called the Kurdish date. So that's 56 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:56,800 actually quite important. Many people don't know that, but officially the Kurds have their own 57 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:01,440 calendar, which is a very ethnocentric calendar. And it makes a very interesting topic of 58 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:06,880 conversation. What is the key to understanding history? Is it that the Medes were gathered 59 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:11,760 together and they later became this great kingdom that overthrew Nineveh and overthrew Babylon? I 60 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:17,120 mean, those were two very important historical events. So I grant that. But is it really the 61 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:25,280 case that everything turns around the foundation of the Medes as a great kingdom? You can tell that 62 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:28,560 I've got lots to say about this, but these are big topics. 63 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:35,920 So these are people who ethnically trace themselves self-consciously back into periods, 64 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,560 events, peoples that we know about from biblical history. 65 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:39,680 Yeah, that's right. Yeah. 66 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,920 Great. Dave, you're... 67 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,520 Some of what we're going to talk about a little bit later, we'll tap into some of that history 68 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:50,400 as well. Jerry, I just want to ask you before we dive into that, you obviously, you threw your 69 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:56,000 lives as a family into Kurdistan and the Kurdish people, but now you're back for educational 70 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:01,120 reasons for your family. How's that adjustment going and what part of your ministry can still 71 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,520 connect you to Kurdish people? 72 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,560 Well, I mean, just by sort of cycling along the Cowley Road, I meet Kurdish friends. 73 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:09,520 This is in Oxford, isn't it? 74 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:18,560 Yeah, in Oxford. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I read Kurdish news stories and keep in touch with a 75 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:25,120 lot of friends back in Kurdistan. And then we'll talk about Nauros. Anyone listening to this has 76 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:32,080 the opportunity to go to a Nauros party. It's sort of often the difference between the Kurds 77 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:38,240 sort of often the eve of the 21st of March, but it can happen at other times just around that date. 78 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,240 It's something well worth... You will generally be very warmly welcomed as someone who is 79 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:47,840 interested in and wants to celebrate the spring festival with people. So that's a good thing to... 80 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,600 Great. Well, we'll dive into Nauros just a sec. And your family, how are they adjusting to life 81 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,960 in the UK after enjoying the hills of Kurdistan? 82 00:07:54,960 --> 00:08:01,200 They really miss it, Dave. I mean, it's interesting because, as you can imagine, 83 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:08,160 there is this big stream of people wanting to leave Kurdistan and come to El Dorado. 84 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,000 I point out that it's not El Dorado. You're just exchanging one set of problems for a different 85 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:18,000 set of problems when you move to the West. And many people regret it, by the way. But yeah, 86 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,480 our family, I mean, it's where they call home, you know? And so they really are aching to get back 87 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:28,560 and visit. Yeah. And they'd love to be able to keep up their Kurdish a bit more. And that's 88 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:33,360 quite difficult to do in the rush of life in the West. Yeah. Well, let's talk about New Year, 89 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,840 because we've had a couple already. We've had the European New Year, 1st of January, then we've had 90 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:43,440 a Lunar New Year, Chinese New Year. And Nauros, it's another New Year. Tell us a little bit about 91 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,440 the nuts and bolts across that whole region, because it's not just the Kurds, is it? 92 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:52,640 Okay. Kurdish people, but I think 13 different countries celebrate Nauros. Tell us a little 93 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:57,840 bit about Nauros. Okay. So let's start with the Kurdish flag. Okay. So if you see that there's a 94 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:04,320 flag, there's a sun right in the center of the Kurdish flag. It's got 21, what do you call them? 95 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:11,040 Spikes, you know? Rays? Rays. 21 rays. And that represents the 21st of March. So it's very central 96 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:18,480 to Kurdish identity, the celebration of the spring equinox. Now, Rurs means new, Rurs is day. In 97 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:26,320 Kurdish, they actually say Rosh with a J. But it shows its Persian roots, Rurs is day in Persian. 98 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:34,880 And it's the most important day for Kurdish people. And typically you'll get out 99 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:43,440 enjoying the spring flowers and dancing and fires and playing some funny kind of games, throwing 100 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:48,800 stones, you know, but nowadays the more modern, you know, things have come in like volleyball's 101 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:54,240 a great one to play. It's better than stones, isn't it? I think. Well, yes, I agree. It's a 102 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,960 great game, but there's some of the oldies are the goldies, Dave, you know, and I've had a good game 103 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:04,320 of Kelvelane, I think they call it, where you have to throw a little stone at a big stone and knock 104 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:10,400 it over. And I always tend to lose against, no matter how much cricket I played, they always seem 105 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:15,360 to hit the middle stump when they're throwing stones. And for those like me who always had a 106 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:20,160 high disadvantage when it came to volleyball, I'm with the stone game. Okay. Yeah. Well, let's 107 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:24,960 let's get out and play some Kelvelane sometime too. Yeah. So people get out, they go into the 108 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:29,440 mountains, beautiful places, they celebrate in the ways you're describing. Yeah. But there's some 109 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:34,560 history and myth behind the whole thing, isn't it? How long have we got Dave? Oh, potted version. 110 00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:39,440 Potted version. Okay. So you've got the wrong version. Okay, I've got some books here. Now look 111 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:47,360 at this. This is the Persian book of Kings, the Shah Naamah. And it's a modern, a very recent 112 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:55,920 translation done for Penguin Classics. And it says quite a bit about the origins of Naoros there. 113 00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:03,840 Now, it's essentially its roots are Zoroastrian. Okay, so the prophet Zoroaster, 114 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:13,280 it's called Zerdashti in Kurdish. And yeah, it's a festival. Zoroastrians are sometimes 115 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:19,440 referred to as fire worshipers. They generally don't like that term. But fire is very important, 116 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:26,160 very sacred in Zoroastrianism. And therefore, fires are very important in the ceremonies. 117 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,160 You know, you have people walking with the lanterns up the mountain, particularly Akre 118 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:36,240 in Iraqi Kurdistan, where Michael Palin went on his travels and he wrote that. I don't think 119 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:41,440 he graduated from here, did he, Michael Palin? I don't think so. No, Monty Python's flying 120 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:48,800 circus, I don't think graced this Academy. But it's quite amusing to watch Michael Palin 121 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:56,960 going up the mountain with all of these Naoros celebrants. But it does mean slightly different 122 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:03,440 things to different people. Many of the people who celebrate Naoros are very upright Muslims, 123 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:08,720 and they would probably downplay the Zoroastrian elements to it. I mean, I'm going to say that as 124 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:13,760 a Christian, I'm happy celebrating Naoros, though I'm not Zoroastrian. We're going to come back to 125 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:18,960 that sort of thing. That's an important issue. Could you give us the Kurdish version then of the 126 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:27,680 narrative? Okay, so the folklore that's told in this epic poem. So Ferdowsi, roughly the time of 127 00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:33,280 the Norman conquest, if you know, sort of 11th century kind of time, if I remember rightly, 128 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:39,600 and his Persian Book of Kings is longer than the Iliad and the Odyssey put together. And it's 129 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:51,200 written in poetry, in verse, and he was an amazing poet, teller of this sort of epic story of the 130 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:56,800 kings of Persia. And it's about the evil tyrant Zahak, who had snakes growing out of his shoulders. 131 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:03,120 And he oppressed the people of Persia. And they cried out for liberty, and he was sent 132 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:12,320 to liberation. And along came the noble blacksmith, Qawwa Asenger, as he's known in Kurdish. And he 133 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:19,920 managed to rally people to protest against the tyrant. Now, can you imagine that that motif is 134 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,800 quite significant? It has been in Persia, in Iran in the last couple of years, you know, they can 135 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:32,640 just lift from the ancient legend into contemporary grievances and protests. 136 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:37,520 So this kind of ancient legend is, you're saying, very much live? 137 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:38,080 Yeah. 138 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,840 In the stories and imaginations of Kurdish and Persian people right now? 139 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:42,320 Hugely, hugely. 140 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,800 Including many of whom will be here, of course, here in this country. 141 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,960 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, in North London, you have a lot of Iranians around Finchley, and 142 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:57,600 then loads of Kurds in Enfield, Edmonton area, mainly Kurds from Turkey, for whom Nauru is maybe 143 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,760 a big thing. I mean, they usually have a big concert down sort of at Finsbury Park somewhere 144 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:07,280 around there. Now, there is a sort of clash this year with Ramadan, actually, Nauru is happening 145 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:13,200 during Ramadan, which can create a bit of a test of loyalty for Kurds. You know, do they say, look, 146 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:20,800 we'll just boot Nauru to after the Eid celebration? Or, you know, can we break our fast and then dance 147 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:25,440 afterwards? And I don't know how people will do it this year. Others will say, look, we weren't 148 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:31,520 originally Muslims anyway. They might say, well, we were Zoroastrian. Some might say, and there were 149 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:38,880 plenty of Christians in that region who did sort of bow the knee to Islam. And so it's a huge 150 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:48,400 ideological issue in people's minds when it comes to, you know, Nauru this year. And in Kurdistan, 151 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:58,800 there's a slight issue with the way that the legend is told originally in that the liberation, 152 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:04,880 the redemption takes place so that the oppressed people can return to their rightful Persian king. 153 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:12,480 Now, I've never heard a Kurd say, well, we celebrate the folklore of Kawa, the blacksmith, 154 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,240 redeeming us from the oppressor so that we could return to our true Persian king, because many 155 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:23,920 Kurds actually don't want to live under Persian Iranian rule anyway. And so that's interesting 156 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:29,600 to see the way that the folklore has been adapted for a Kurdish context. Yeah. Jerry, you said a 157 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,400 little bit earlier, you'd be quite happy to celebrate Nauru, but you're not a Zoroastrian. 158 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:41,760 So what's going on there? What are you thinking? So, I mean, I haven't said much about it. The fact 159 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:47,280 that it's the spring equinox. Okay. So equinox, it means that the day and the night are of equal 160 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:55,120 length on the 21st of March. Now, the arrival of spring is something that the Bible addresses in 161 00:15:55,120 --> 00:16:03,120 Song of Songs. It talks about the time of spring has come and the cooing of the doves. It's a love 162 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:09,280 poem, the Song of Songs, but it's celebrating spring as something wonderful. And actually, 163 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,080 in a Kurdish context, that's very significant because you have a quite short window of time 164 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:20,560 between a harsh winter and a pretty brutal summer. So spring is something to be really 165 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:25,200 enjoyed while it lasts. A bit like the British days at the beach where just for a few days in 166 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:29,120 the year it's warm enough to be kind of- One afternoon in August, maybe. Something like that. 167 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:35,920 Yeah. So yeah, I'm very much, and I would say that it's true, the critique that evangelicals are often 168 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:42,480 strong on their doctrine of redemption and weak on their doctrine of creation. But the cash value 169 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:49,760 of that is do we actually enjoy God's creation? Or do we think that God is some sort of cosmic 170 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:55,360 spoil sports? We can slip into that way of thinking through a right zeal for the spreading 171 00:16:55,360 --> 00:17:02,400 of the good news and the teaching of sound doctrine and things. But actually, I go back to 172 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:09,600 1 Timothy 6 about God has created all things for our enjoyment. There's nothing worldly about 173 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:16,560 enjoying the creation that God designed in all its beauty to be enjoyed. So I want to throw myself 174 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:23,360 wholeheartedly into celebrating with friends, whether they're Muslims, Yazidis or Zoroastrians 175 00:17:23,360 --> 00:17:30,640 or whatever. And I do have a bone with the way that the environment is destroyed by people's 176 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:36,800 trash that they spread all over the countryside. So it's not just enjoying the volleyball and the 177 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:42,320 barbecues and stuff, but actually we should try and protest against people that are leaving trash 178 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:47,360 everywhere. That's another big issue. Okay. Well, we had a lecturer here, Dan Strange, who was big 179 00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:52,720 into subversive fulfillment, if I could throw that phrase at you. And he picked that up obviously 180 00:17:52,720 --> 00:18:00,080 from others, Hendrick Kramer, J.H. Bavinck, talking about the way that the gospel can kind of grab 181 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:06,960 hold of existing things and give them the lie, but also fulfill them or fulfill their aspirations 182 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:13,040 with true gospel content. Can you see that applying at all to Nauros, especially thinking about that 183 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:22,560 myth with Zahak and noble Kaur? Yeah. Well, I think there are amazing kind of striking resemblances 184 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:32,240 between the Nauros legend and the story of God's redemption in Christ. And so you could take the 185 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:39,360 whole nature of the world in which we live, where we do live under terrible tyranny at times. It 186 00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:45,200 can be the government, the central government, it can be a bad husband, it can be a domineering 187 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,120 mother-in-law, it can be a bad boss, any of those things we experience. Economic systems, all sorts 188 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:55,920 of things. Yeah, yeah. All kinds of manipulation and oppression. It is a valley of tears that we 189 00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:01,120 live in in so many ways. And if we're not aware of that, we're not going to connect with so many 190 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:09,440 people that we minister to in our neighborhoods. So there is a sort of value in just in mourning 191 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:15,920 over the way the world is, or else we're in cloud cuckoo land. People just think we're not real 192 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:24,720 people. But then we all long for some sort of hero figure that will set the world right. I mean, 193 00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:30,080 think of all the Superman movies, the Marvel movies, they're just there to a penny, aren't they? 194 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:39,680 But in particular, there's this resemblance of Kaur, the blacksmith, to Jesus, the carpenter. 195 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:45,520 It's important to underline that he wasn't born in a palace. He didn't sort of just float around, 196 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:52,080 never getting his hands dirty. He worked as a carpenter, you know, and then he gave three years 197 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,400 of his life to a tenor in ministry, and he died as a sacrifice. Now, the thing that I haven't 198 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:04,080 mentioned about the Naurav's legend is that the way that Kaur redeemed the people under the control 199 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:10,080 of Zahak was that Zahak had to feed the snakes coming from his shoulders with the brains of 200 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:18,640 young people. It's a gruesome story. Parents will have to decide whether they want the full 201 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:24,160 detail in the story. I mean, actually, a lot of children's folklore is actually quite gruesome. 202 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:30,080 You know, the big bad wolf. A snake kind of devouring humanity. This is going to ring bell 203 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:36,480 for Christians, isn't it? Well, yeah, indeed. Yeah, the devil is pictured as a serpent. 204 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:43,280 And so Kaur decided to sacrifice sheep. Well, he actually sacrificed for every two people 205 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:50,160 that were being fed to Zahak. He killed one sheep and therefore saved one of the two. Slightly, 206 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:57,120 you know, sad part of the story that not everyone was saved through his act of redemption and 207 00:20:57,120 --> 00:21:03,040 liberation like this. But it did mean that once the snakes were fed on the brains, one person could 208 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:09,360 be told, look, go out into the countryside. And that's how the Kurds mythologically described. 209 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:13,360 It's actually the manuscript. I haven't yet looked at it. It's apparently in the Bodleian Library in 210 00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:22,720 Oxford of the Kurdish telling of this story from the, I think, the 1600s, maybe the late 16th century. 211 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:29,440 And in the Kurdish form of the legend, the people who were thus redeemed by this substitution, 212 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:40,160 then went to go off and live in the wild and develop their own civilization and develop 213 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,760 their own language. It's a very interesting description, which, you know, again, is it 214 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,360 historical? You know, what date did this really happen? Those sort of questions we might have. 215 00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:53,440 No, I mean, it's a telling of a story which is folkloric, but yet it does ring true because 216 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:59,840 they've lived as this very separate people in the Zagros Mountains and have developed a language that 217 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:05,280 is certainly very different from Arabic and Turkish, but it's different even from Persian, 218 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:13,520 from which it comes. So that's sort of how the Kurds see themselves. Going back to Sharif Nama 219 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:18,160 Bitlisi and his legend, which I've got to find somewhere, the manuscript in the Bodleian. 220 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:27,280 So I see Jesus as the sort of true kawa, and he's come to destroy the devil's works. 221 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:34,560 One John says that, doesn't it? And so, yeah, I see Jesus as the, he's signposted by this 222 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:39,920 folklore, not in the same way that Jewish scripture specifically prophesies the coming of 223 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:45,840 Jesus, but I would say signposted because often the myths of the world bear this striking resemblance 224 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:51,360 to the true redemption story. Yeah. So there's that longing there for a redeemer. And in some 225 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:56,880 senses you want to say to your Kurdish friends, Jesus is the redeemer you've always been waiting 226 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:03,200 for. Yeah, exactly. And there is another point that's quite kind of close to the bone is that 227 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:08,480 one Kurd said to me, our problem is that kawa has becomes a huck. So you think of, I mean, 228 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,080 any country where someone comes in saying, you know, away with the old, with the new. 229 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:17,760 Kawa has become the huck. Becomes the huck, meaning the so-called liberators have become the 230 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:22,560 oppressors. Right. So often, you know, the people who come and say, look, we're making all things 231 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:27,440 new and, you know, a new system and now we've got self-rule and we've done away with Europe, 232 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:34,000 let's say, to put a slightly, you know, to bring it home to Britain today. Well, you know, actually, 233 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,680 often these people end up, you think, well, they're no better than the previous guy, you know. 234 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,040 Putting your hope in apparent earthly liberators. Yeah. 235 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,520 That will in the end disappoint. Exactly. Yeah. 236 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,840 Every, every people group on earth has learned that. Yeah. 237 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:55,680 I mean, just in talking with Kurdish friends, both in Kurdistan and here, have you found 238 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:02,480 that just, have you found there's been kind of, the conversations have been fruitful when you've 239 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:09,440 been able to say, do you know, I have a similar story or similar story, you know, 240 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:16,800 something like that? You know, I would, I've not done it enough to know, you know, to see 241 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:23,040 that many people's reaction to it. But, you know, I have flagged it up and I'd like to write more 242 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:32,160 just to really spell it out and explain more about, you know, how Jesus by His blood has stepped in 243 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,080 to our place, taking the punishment we deserve so that we can go free. Yeah. 244 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,640 And it takes time to spell it out for people. Of course, of course. 245 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:45,280 On your recommendation, Jerry, I had a Kurdish barber and I, when you sat in the chair, 246 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:50,480 you got lots of time to talk. His English was up to it. We talked about it and asked him a little 247 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:58,320 bit about it and talked a little bit about maybe Jesus is the kower that you've been waiting for. 248 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,960 And people just are fascinated to know that you know a little bit of their history. 249 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,880 And I was just wondering, we've got lots of Kurdish people living in our communities around our 250 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:12,800 churches. We perhaps don't really know how to engage. Do you think Nowruz is a good time of 251 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:17,200 year? Could we host a party in our buildings or would that be outrageous? Or should we go along to 252 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:22,880 people's existing parties? How can we begin to share the gospel story with our friends here in 253 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:29,200 the UK who've come from that region? Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the things that 254 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:34,480 thousands, millions of people are facing at the moment around the world in this kind of 255 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:40,480 world of mass migration is that they ended up in a new place and they feel friendless. 256 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:45,920 And Kurds actually give their children some curious names like Baqes, meaning without a person, 257 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:52,000 you know, like friendless. And they like to express their angst and grief in the names they 258 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:56,800 even give to their children. And so it's a very real part of their experiences. They say no 259 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:03,600 friends but the mountains. Havol nina jibili ciayan. That's just a very common descriptor that 260 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:09,040 Kurds use of themselves. But I pray and I'm sure this is happening in many places that Kurds are 261 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:15,760 finding a warm welcome from followers of Jesus in their local communities who do, you know, okay, 262 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:21,520 they don't know maybe that much about Kurdish culture, but perhaps they know the difference 263 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:27,360 between Kurdistan, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, you know, which is a must be a familiar frustration 264 00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:33,040 for Kurds. And just receiving a welcome or someone in the barber's chair to say, I've heard a bit 265 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:39,200 about Nauros, your new year and this amazing story about the, you know, the black, you don't need to 266 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:44,240 remember everything, but just a little bit of the basic plot line. And they'll just be so pleased 267 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:50,960 that you know something about their history. And it's quite soul destroying in a way to be 268 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:58,080 in a place where people, they just, I mean, they might treat you as sort of being a foreigner, 269 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:04,720 you know. And then if they think you're just an Arab or a Turk or a sort of a Muslim in the sense 270 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:11,280 that as if that summarized who you were. I mean, people just must feel so frustrated by that kind 271 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:16,160 of reception from people who are not maybe actively racist, but are not very warmhearted. 272 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,920 Yeah, I mean, many people of the UK, I mean, if you're Scottish, you know, when you go, let's say 273 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:24,400 to the United States and they just talk about you like you're English. I've got plenty of Scottish 274 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:32,000 friends who winds them up. And I, it's a similar kind of thing, but coming back, you both mentioned 275 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:39,440 Kurdish barbers. Just give us a, Jeremy, just give us a sense of, I mean, roughly the numbers 276 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:46,720 of Kurdish people now in the UK, where they've tended to settle the kinds of occupations they 277 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:51,920 found. Just give us that kind of orientation. I mean, the ballpark figure of sort of 300,000 278 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:57,920 Kurds in the UK might be about right. In the late 80s. I mean, that's a decent sized city, isn't it? 279 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:04,480 It is, yeah. It's a significant population. And then a lot of those are young men who will likely 280 00:28:05,120 --> 00:28:11,120 bring a bride over from Kurdistan and then have children. So that population could increase 281 00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:19,040 significantly in coming years. But in the late 80s, a lot of people from central Eastern Anatolia, 282 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,120 our Levy Kurds came over and settled in the Haringey Enfield kind of area. 283 00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:28,960 Anatolia, so we're talking Turkey kind of area. Yeah. Yeah. So Turkish Kurds. And then the Home 284 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:35,920 Office sort of moved away from that model of almost sort of ghettoized communities into more 285 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:43,360 of a dispersal scheme. But actually that happens anyway in terms of Kurds who learn the trade of 286 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:50,000 barbering and then want to go to a market town, sort of friendly face, engaging people. That's 287 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,880 the sort of feedback people give Kurdish people. They're friendly lot. And so they're going to make 288 00:28:54,880 --> 00:29:02,240 good barbers. And so that's the way to make a decent living is finding a market town that 289 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,320 doesn't have a traditional Turkish barber and you set up shop there. So that's what we're seeing 290 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:11,280 around the UK. So if I see a sign above a shop that says Turkish barber, which increasingly I do, 291 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:17,920 is it quite likely that it's a Kurd? Yeah, it's most likely an Iraqi Kurd working there. Yeah. 292 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:24,640 Yeah. You thought quite a lot about the shop, the High Street as a communal area. We Westerners, 293 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:29,280 we go to the High Street. Usually we go to do a transaction, get something, especially 294 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:34,400 us males, we're in and out fairly quickly. But for Kurdish people and people from that broader 295 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:39,520 region, there's more of a sense of community extension into the shop area, whether it be a 296 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:45,600 barber's or a grocer's or perhaps even a kebab shop or something, a Kurdish restaurant, something 297 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:51,200 like that. And the women tend to be more communal around the home, if I've got this right. And the 298 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:56,960 men tend to be more communal around the High Street shops. Can you say a little bit about that and 299 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:02,320 how that might present opportunities for British Christians to wander down the High Street and 300 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:08,000 hang out? Actually, just in a small way, I've noticed this in the small area here, the local 301 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:16,000 barbers I go to, I don't think that it's not run by Kurdish people, but I just kind of person I am 302 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:21,120 by background, I go in, I get my haircut, I check the barber, I go away. And I only never think of 303 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:25,200 going unless I need my haircut again. But there are regularly people dropping in and I'm looking 304 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:31,440 at you going, you look like you had a haircut last week. Yeah, yeah, sure. And they've just dropped 305 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:37,040 into chat. It's clearly a very different culture to mine. Yeah. So I mean, I wrote an article called, 306 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:42,720 what was it? I think it's shop and restaurant. Engaging with shop and restaurant communities. 307 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:49,040 And I intended that to be a, that normally we don't, it's a, what's the word, oxymoron, 308 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,520 that normally shop and community don't go together. You know, a shop is somewhere where you go in for 309 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:59,520 a quick exchange of goods. And that's different from a community. But you often find, yeah, the 310 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:06,640 shops are just an outflow of a community with perhaps an extended family working there and 311 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:13,920 people from a similar background. And it's often a place where children are kind of apprenticed 312 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:19,440 in real life, you know, to learn how to serve customers and represent their country in some 313 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:25,600 sense. I mean, it's soft skills, obviously, that you're teaching in many cases, but yeah. And so 314 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:31,280 I think that, you know, if you really want to reach people with the good news of Jesus, then 315 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:40,080 it can be a good thing to go back to the same shops and get to know people, show an interest in 316 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:47,760 them and their culture, how their kids are doing at school, those sort of things. And bit by bit 317 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:53,680 and bit by bit show yourself to be more interested in them than your average customer just comes in 318 00:31:53,680 --> 00:32:03,440 for the pint of milk. Yeah. What kind of, to engage with that, both when you were living in 319 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:10,720 Kirshir, is now you're back here. What kind of, because it's not natural in my culture, nor in 320 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:17,440 your original culture, what kind of mind shifts or heart shifts did you have to kind of deliberately 321 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:23,360 work through in order really to engage with that? I mean, let me give you one, one problem is that 322 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:30,640 we in the West, we have quite a sort of social hierarchy based on, you know, graduate jobs with 323 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:35,600 doctors and engineers and barristers at the top of, you know, all that sort of snobbery. And so 324 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,000 therefore you kind of think, well, maybe the shopkeeper is not so terribly intellectual. 325 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,720 You wouldn't ever say that, but you can often think that. Whereas actually, I've had some 326 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,920 incredibly intellectual conversations, you know, with philosophical falafel makers, let's say, 327 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:56,320 you know, and maybe they have more time to think and listen to, you know, YouTube and stuff because 328 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:01,600 they're doing a manual job than someone who's just so busy doing accountancy that he doesn't 329 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:06,640 have much time to think about, you know, the big issues and current affairs, you know. And if I go 330 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:11,280 into a shop thinking, okay, I've heard this, it's a local shop, I know it's run by Kurdish people, 331 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:16,400 praying, it'd be lovely if there's a conversation. The voice of, because of who I am, the voice of 332 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:21,680 God in my head is, what they really want you to do is make your purchase, pay your money and leave, 333 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:27,600 otherwise you're getting in their way. What, just paint more of a picture of, from the, 334 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:32,400 from the Kurdish shop owners point of view, what's their view of the customers who come 335 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,960 in and the kind of interactions that they would love to have? Good question. Let's say with someone 336 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:41,360 like me walking into the store. I mean, there are, there are sort of some various practical issues 337 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:46,800 there that there's rush hour and there's non rush hour in shops. So, you know, if you can, 338 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:52,000 and you know, some pastors do have time mid morning, you know, where they can go into a 339 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:57,680 shop and expect a cup of tea, you know, not demand a cup of tea, but you know, they'll likely have 340 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:03,360 time, you know, for a more extended conversation, which is just not appropriate when all the kids 341 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:10,880 are coming out of school. So there's practical issues like that. I think that, I think people 342 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,880 can be bored by the routine of, you know, another packet of cigarettes and another, you know, 343 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:22,000 pint of milk, but so they're happy to talk, you know, but I always go back to that sense that God 344 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:27,280 has given us two ears and one mouth, you know, and, and even those of us who are thinking, okay, 345 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:32,240 I want to serve the gospel, but we're still acting with the kind of one ear, two mouths, sort of 346 00:34:32,240 --> 00:34:38,080 kind of paradigm where, where we just want to talk because we think, Hey, now, now I understand 347 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:44,160 their worldview and I want to sort of speak into it. No, you can find that people can be from, 348 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,200 you know, they might have very different, you know, depending on how seriously they take 349 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:53,040 their religion that they were brought up with. And then, you know, they on the left or the right 350 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,280 of the political spectrum and you know, what do they think of Turkey now with the big shift 351 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,840 in a more Islamic direction, you know, do they welcome that or do they think that's awful? And 352 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:06,640 that's why they're in Britain, you know, any of those things are just good questions to ask, you 353 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,400 know, how do you find Turkey today? You know, are you pleased with the way things are developing? 354 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,240 And, you know, that, that then allows you to gauge where, where people are at, or just look behind 355 00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:18,720 the counter and see, are they selling booze? Because you might think, well, if they're a Muslim, 356 00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:23,200 why would they be selling alcohol? And often, especially in North London, it's because they're 357 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:28,480 Alevies and there is no prohibition against drinking alcohol, you know, Alevies. So they're, 358 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:34,240 they're kind of technically Shiites, but, but not like extreme Shiites that you see in Iran, but 359 00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:38,240 they're, they're, they're more humanist, a little bit like the Quakers in Christian history, 360 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:45,120 dissented from the mainstream. And, and often they would see themselves as very much humanists. 361 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:51,840 And you can get into some very interesting conversations with the ways in which they feel 362 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:59,680 they've been oppressed by, by, by the majority religion. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's say you, 363 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,360 you knock up some friendships like this, you spend some time with people and there's some 364 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:09,600 receptivity, people become Christians. Let's say they've got Islamic names, for example, 365 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:14,800 you've written recently an article called Dear Pastor Mohammed, isn't it about time you changed 366 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:20,800 your name or something like that, which hopefully will roll out as a blog. What's your take on that? 367 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:28,160 Is it, is it better for them to have their name changed? Like Saul had his name changed to Paul. 368 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:38,320 Yeah. What, what do you think, Jerry? So I think, read, read the article. It's, I think there's a 369 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:43,280 great, there can be a great mistake in thinking, or, you know, someone who's become a follower of 370 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:49,120 Jesus and they're called Mohammed, really they should have their name changed. And the thing is 371 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:55,200 that often, especially from Iraq, if you're called Mohammed, it's often because your grandfather was 372 00:36:55,200 --> 00:37:01,040 called Mohammed. And so it's perfectly possible to say, I, I, I like being called Mohammed. It's, 373 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:06,160 it reminds me of my grandfather. Okay. He wasn't a follower of Jesus, but he taught me lots about, 374 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:12,640 you know, keeping bees and, you know, how to, how to prune an apple tree. And, and, you know, so 375 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:18,240 it goes back to the fifth commandment, honor your father and your mother, that when people come to 376 00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:24,240 faith in Jesus, we don't expect them to be cut off from their family or to make a mess of their, 377 00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:29,120 you know, their, their sandwich shop, because suddenly you're insisting they change their name. 378 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:35,760 Everyone knows him as Hamma or Mohammed or something, you know. So I think that, and, and even 379 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,520 the name Mohammed, actually, if you look at it, it actually has a very good meaning of, you know, 380 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:47,040 praiseworthy. And so that's the meaning of the name Mohammed is praiseworthy. Okay. So the, the 381 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:52,320 might be reasons people take on an additional name. And that can be something very constructive, 382 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:57,040 you know, that, I mean, in Kurdish, there are some wonderful names that are very common, like 383 00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:02,320 Shivan meaning shepherd. Can you, have you thought of any shepherds that you admire Tim? There's 384 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:10,160 that guy from Palestine. Well, well, exactly. He was, yeah. Or Rezvan meaning vine dresser, or even 385 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:15,360 the name of the New Testament in Kurdish is Mezgini. And Mezgin is a common name, meaning, 386 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:22,400 you know, good news. Mezgini means good news. And so it's wonderful that there are names like that, 387 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:30,160 that, yeah, that can be used as, as very Kurdish names and go for many other cultures around the 388 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:35,840 world, that you can take things from the existing culture and, and breathe, you know, real Christian 389 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:41,280 intentionality into them. Okay. And of course, we're not the only people to think missiologically 390 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:45,520 about what to do when people from other backgrounds, from other religious backgrounds, 391 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:52,880 become Christians. You dug up something that William Carey had written in 1805, tackling this 392 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:58,400 very issue, didn't you? Yeah. It was a very poor agreement. Yeah. And these are the early days where 393 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:06,880 this, these guys were serving the gospel in, yeah, in Bengal. And, and it was, it's a short 394 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:12,160 document actually, that they don't cover things exhaustively about the practice of mission. But 395 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:17,600 one of the things they do put their finger on is we don't force new names on, on converts. And then 396 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:24,320 they say, well, that's because the apostles didn't insist on new names for, what was the list? Phoebe 397 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:29,360 was one of them. Phoebe, my daughter's called Phoebe. Oh, and I liked, yeah, Epaphroditus. 398 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:34,560 Epaphroditus. This article you've written, we will put out as a blog on the, 399 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,240 College of Episodes, and we could too. Epaphroditus. It had never occurred to me, 400 00:39:38,240 --> 00:39:42,240 until I read your article. It means from Aphrodite. Exactly. And they happily live, 401 00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:47,680 happily live with him as a Christian. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So your, your, your daughter's pagan name 402 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,680 in the clear. Yes. Well, I didn't know it when I called her it, but now having heard you, Jerry, 403 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:56,720 I think I still would have called her Phoebe. So there we go. So let's not put pressure on 404 00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:02,240 people from Muslim backgrounds to change their Islamic names. Yeah. But Al-Aziz, 405 00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:07,760 keep them because there might be a whole range of reasons, plus the New Testament precedent for, 406 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:13,200 for keeping them. Yeah. And it's also just to do with focusing on the real change that is important. 407 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,240 You know, it's not about the change of clothing. Right. Some, sadly, some converts in parts of the 408 00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:24,400 world just end up dressing like Westerners. And that's just a terrible departure from the culture 409 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:30,560 that there's nothing wrong with that, you know, way of dressing in a distinctly African way. 410 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:35,600 Or a way of dressing in a distinctly African or Chinese or Brazilian way, you know. So same with, 411 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:42,880 with names is that we want our name in biblical terms is our character. And it's, we want to shine 412 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:49,120 a new character that is full of kindness, compassion, humility. That's the name change 413 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:55,360 that really counts. On names, Jeremy, there was a very famous American man that lived in Kurdistan 414 00:40:55,360 --> 00:41:02,880 called Roger Cumberland. Could you tell us about Roger Cumberland, please? Yeah. So on June the 12th, 415 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:11,200 1938, Roger Cumberland had lived for 12 years among, well, 15 years in total. He lived there 416 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:18,880 among the Kurds and he was shot dead in his own home because people had been coming to, 417 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:26,320 it's still debated as to why he was killed. But undoubtedly part of it was that people, 418 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:32,000 Muslims had been becoming followers of Jesus. And there was a lot of pushback and consternation that 419 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:39,760 Kurds were going to turn to Christ en masse really. And so he was, he was shot dead. And, 420 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:48,000 but yet his, his legend is sort of lived on. And my concern has been that his house, which is slightly 421 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:52,880 dilapidated, still remains in the centre of Tahuk where we lived. And you can visit it as a tourist 422 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:58,480 attraction. Well, they're trying to restore it so that it will be a museum. And his daughter, 423 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:03,680 before she died last year, said, I want it to be a peace, a centre for peace and reconciliation. 424 00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:09,440 And the local authorities are honouring that and are seeking to restore it as a sort of period 425 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:16,480 peace house. And people are just fascinated by a man who came in, he didn't learn Arabic, 426 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,800 but he did learn he was fluent in Kurdish and he earned the respect of the people. 427 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:28,400 And, and I've done a webinar about him and have been interviewed for a documentary film about him. 428 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:34,160 So I'm looking forward to his story being, it's a brilliant, amazing story. And I'm looking to 429 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:38,720 still editing his letters and looking to make his story better known. 430 00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:43,280 When you say you've been interviewed for a documentary, is that on Kurdish TV or BBC? 431 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:51,120 That's done by a Kurdish film filmmaker. We'll see what gets put out. But even the short videos 432 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:58,080 that have been made about him, even the ones that are slightly critical of him, 147,000 people 433 00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:04,160 viewing it on Facebook, just huge interest in his life. And they don't know the half of what a 434 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:09,840 colourful and adventurous character he was. Jeremy, thank you so much for coming down to 435 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:16,080 be with us for this podcast. This kind of thing, because I'm not the Missyologist around here, 436 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:22,640 who you are, but it just opens my eyes to the kind of world perspective we all ought to have. 437 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:28,880 And just the sheer numbers, I mean, you said 300,000 Kurdish people set up home in this country. 438 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:36,080 Many will bring over a wife. They'll have a family, they'll put down roots here. This is 439 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:44,480 a large number of people. For someone listening into this, who's a resident of the UK, 440 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:50,080 or any area where there are Kurdish people as neighbours, what would you want them to kind of 441 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:55,600 take on board as an insight or a truth to lodge in their hearts? 442 00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:03,120 One of the things, Tim, is that we tend to read our Bible through the lens of American and European, 443 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:08,640 perhaps Australian theologians. Now, all of these places are miles, thousands of miles away from the 444 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:14,400 biblical action. Now, the way that the God's Spirit is moving is that many more people from 445 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:19,760 the Bible lands, if you like, are coming to faith in Christ and are studying their Bibles afresh. 446 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:24,080 And they do take note of, let's say, the Queen of Sheba. She came from Yemen, right? 447 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:28,240 And is that happening among Kurds as well? We know about Iranians, but as well? 448 00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:33,040 Yeah, well, there are much smaller numbers, but increasing numbers of Syrian Kurds particularly. 449 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:39,040 But what I'm saying here is that as Western Christians, we've got to get back to seeing that, 450 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:44,400 I know, Dave, you've told me about how Ethiopians, they know Psalm 68, I think. 451 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:45,040 Oh, that's right. 452 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:53,920 And, you know, I mean, there are promises for, you know, people, you know, from Iraq, people 453 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:59,680 used to talk about how, you know, Assyria and Egypt are mentioned in Isaiah 19. There was one 454 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:04,240 conference where there were Egyptians and then Assyrian Christians. And they were just very 455 00:45:04,240 --> 00:45:10,480 fascinated by this promise that, you know, us Brits are just, if we get a mention at all, 456 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:15,520 we're the far off distant coastlands, you know, the far off islands. And that's where we get a 457 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:22,080 mention in Isaiah, you know. So I think that's part of it is to realize that there are, you know, 458 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:28,080 there is a particular way that God addresses those who are from, you know, the Middle East and those 459 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:36,080 nations around, the table of nations, for example. You know, you can find many modern nations to 460 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,600 some extent there, addressed in Genesis 10. 461 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:44,320 So it's just sitting down where possible, reading the Bible with these folks who, 462 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,080 in a sense, see themselves more directly than I might do. 463 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:52,720 Yeah. And just being really looked at another example, you know, Ruth was a Jordanian, you know. 464 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:58,480 Really? She was a Moabite. I suppose she was, you know. But it's just, we don't think that way. And 465 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:03,920 yet, let's not say that, you know, that makes the Jordanians any more important or the Kurds 466 00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:09,280 any more important. That's a fallacy. But actually the fact that, you know, the Medes were there at 467 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:14,080 the Day of Pentecost together with the Parthians and the Elamites, which is Iran, you know, 468 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:18,080 and residents of Mesopotamia, which is Iraq, you know, like the Brits clearly weren't there, 469 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:23,200 but these nations were. And I think we should cherish those things and show how relevant the 470 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,680 Bible is, lest they think, oh, this is a man with his American religion or something. 471 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:28,800 With his Western religion. 472 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:30,560 Which is just so wrong-headed, you know. 473 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:38,880 Thank you. That's a wonderful insight. A very helpful one to end on. It's been great to have a 474 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:45,040 former student of college here on the podcast. Thank you so much for coming down. Every blessing 475 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:51,040 to you in your ongoing work and ministry. We trust that this episode of Deep Roots has been a real 476 00:46:51,040 --> 00:47:09,440 blessing to you. We'll be posting the next one in a month's time. See you then.