Well, welcome again to Deep Roots, a conversation about theology and ministry brought to you by us
here at Oak Hill College. My name is Tim Ward, I'm one of the teaching staff here and I'm joined
today by on my right, David Baldwin. I teach cross-cultural mission and I'm just leaving
that post actually and passing that on to Chris Howells and Jeremy.
Now Jeremy, welcome. It is a delight to have you here. You are in fact a former student of this
illustrious college. Indeed. From back in the day, so when were you here? 2007 to 2009 and
enormously grateful for the time I had studying here. And now just tell us a little about what
you've been doing in the years since leaving college because that's going to be our focus
here on this podcast. Yeah, sure. So I had the privilege of living in the Kurdistan region of
Iraq for 11 years with my family and I set up a language consultancy there. So I was teaching
English. I also had the opportunity to teach Kurdology, which in case people have misheard
me has not got to do with hyper heart bypass operations. I thought it was like Kurds and
Wales or something. Yeah, nor kiddology, which is something else. Yeah.
Kurdology. That's the first term I have ever heard that word. Yeah, yeah. So that's studying
the history and culture of the Kurds. And that was an amazing privilege to see a kind of rudimentary
textbook. And but yeah, it was pretty basic. And so I got to really set the syllabus for myself and
always just had to keep a few years ahead of my students as I taught myself the subject. And that
was just fascinating. Yeah. Wonderful. What led you to have that particular focus on and an
interest in Kurdish people? Well, yeah, it's kind of a much discussed question among Kurdish friends,
because some of the reasons why people might end up in Kurdistan would be, okay, maybe they're
married to Kurd or they're involved in espionage or the oil industry, politics or military or
serving God. And my wife is British and yeah, I wasn't interested in those other things.
I was there serving the Lord Jesus and glad to explain that it was because he changed my life
as a 17 year old and gave me a world vision that I ended up serving in a fairly, you know,
5,000 kilometres away. But you know, I always saw my work as, you know, I wanted to love my neighbour
to love my neighbour as myself in a holistic way. And so some of the things, you know, people looked
at social media posts and things that I put out and kind of saw why you're involved in lots of
things. And I think that's just, well, I think that human beings are, you know, relational beings,
we're spiritual beings, we're physical beings. So, you know, my latest visit, I was very busy
organising a half marathon round the lake and it was the first of its kind in Tahuk. Real pleasure.
I made it round in just under two hours. And I think it was a really good thing for the city,
you know, to encourage people to get out there, enjoy the great outdoors, keep fit, make friends,
have some healthy competition. So yeah, lots of those things. But you know, whether you eat or
you drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. One Corinthians. And so that was
kind of my approach. That, yeah, I mean, developing a nation's language increasingly, I got more
involved in developing Kurdish rather than teaching English, lots of people teaching English, but
not many people thinking the one of the keys to this nation's development is that they develop
their own language. Right. Okay. Now we're going to go, aren't we going to get into some particular
questions? Are there any things about Kurdish people and Kurdistan that we're going to need
to kind of have this crucial background so that we tune in well to something? I mean, one of them,
one of them is the sad reality that you've already said a controversial word, Tim, which is Kurdistan.
Okay. So even here in North London, well, here in North London, a lot of people would be very proud
of the word Kurdistan, but it is incredibly controversial, sadly. I mean, it's ridiculous,
but because a star is just a region, it's the region of the Kurds, you know, it's a geographical
descriptor, but it's become this hugely controversial term in Iran. They have a,
it's just one of the recognized provinces of Iran is called Kurdistan. So that's not really
controversial, but for Kurds to say, I'm from Kurdistan when they're referring to places in
Southeastern Turkey is enough to really make Turkish people irate. And yet there shouldn't be a battle
over what you call that area, you know? So that's one thing by way of orientation that's important
to realize. Some people can get very aggro when you talk about Kurdistan. But another thing, I mean,
you should put it out there that Kurds are very shaped by their understanding of history.
They see themselves as descendants of the ancient Medes, you know, so Bible readers know about
the Medes and the Persians, Darius the Great, for example. And so they actually date year zero,
not as the birth of Jesus or the flight of Muhammad, but actually the unification of the Median tribes.
And so you always add 700 to the AED date to get what is called the Kurdish date. So that's
actually quite important. Many people don't know that, but officially the Kurds have their own
calendar, which is a very ethnocentric calendar. And it makes a very interesting topic of
conversation. What is the key to understanding history? Is it that the Medes were gathered
together and they later became this great kingdom that overthrew Nineveh and overthrew Babylon? I
mean, those were two very important historical events. So I grant that. But is it really the
case that everything turns around the foundation of the Medes as a great kingdom? You can tell that
I've got lots to say about this, but these are big topics.
So these are people who ethnically trace themselves self-consciously back into periods,
events, peoples that we know about from biblical history.
Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Great. Dave, you're...
Some of what we're going to talk about a little bit later, we'll tap into some of that history
as well. Jerry, I just want to ask you before we dive into that, you obviously, you threw your
lives as a family into Kurdistan and the Kurdish people, but now you're back for educational
reasons for your family. How's that adjustment going and what part of your ministry can still
connect you to Kurdish people?
Well, I mean, just by sort of cycling along the Cowley Road, I meet Kurdish friends.
This is in Oxford, isn't it?
Yeah, in Oxford. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I read Kurdish news stories and keep in touch with a
lot of friends back in Kurdistan. And then we'll talk about Nauros. Anyone listening to this has
the opportunity to go to a Nauros party. It's sort of often the difference between the Kurds
sort of often the eve of the 21st of March, but it can happen at other times just around that date.
It's something well worth... You will generally be very warmly welcomed as someone who is
interested in and wants to celebrate the spring festival with people. So that's a good thing to...
Great. Well, we'll dive into Nauros just a sec. And your family, how are they adjusting to life
in the UK after enjoying the hills of Kurdistan?
They really miss it, Dave. I mean, it's interesting because, as you can imagine,
there is this big stream of people wanting to leave Kurdistan and come to El Dorado.
I point out that it's not El Dorado. You're just exchanging one set of problems for a different
set of problems when you move to the West. And many people regret it, by the way. But yeah,
our family, I mean, it's where they call home, you know? And so they really are aching to get back
and visit. Yeah. And they'd love to be able to keep up their Kurdish a bit more. And that's
quite difficult to do in the rush of life in the West. Yeah. Well, let's talk about New Year,
because we've had a couple already. We've had the European New Year, 1st of January, then we've had
a Lunar New Year, Chinese New Year. And Nauros, it's another New Year. Tell us a little bit about
the nuts and bolts across that whole region, because it's not just the Kurds, is it?
Okay. Kurdish people, but I think 13 different countries celebrate Nauros. Tell us a little
bit about Nauros. Okay. So let's start with the Kurdish flag. Okay. So if you see that there's a
flag, there's a sun right in the center of the Kurdish flag. It's got 21, what do you call them?
Spikes, you know? Rays? Rays. 21 rays. And that represents the 21st of March. So it's very central
to Kurdish identity, the celebration of the spring equinox. Now, Rurs means new, Rurs is day. In
Kurdish, they actually say Rosh with a J. But it shows its Persian roots, Rurs is day in Persian.
And it's the most important day for Kurdish people. And typically you'll get out
enjoying the spring flowers and dancing and fires and playing some funny kind of games, throwing
stones, you know, but nowadays the more modern, you know, things have come in like volleyball's
a great one to play. It's better than stones, isn't it? I think. Well, yes, I agree. It's a
great game, but there's some of the oldies are the goldies, Dave, you know, and I've had a good game
of Kelvelane, I think they call it, where you have to throw a little stone at a big stone and knock
it over. And I always tend to lose against, no matter how much cricket I played, they always seem
to hit the middle stump when they're throwing stones. And for those like me who always had a
high disadvantage when it came to volleyball, I'm with the stone game. Okay. Yeah. Well, let's
let's get out and play some Kelvelane sometime too. Yeah. So people get out, they go into the
mountains, beautiful places, they celebrate in the ways you're describing. Yeah. But there's some
history and myth behind the whole thing, isn't it? How long have we got Dave? Oh, potted version.
Potted version. Okay. So you've got the wrong version. Okay, I've got some books here. Now look
at this. This is the Persian book of Kings, the Shah Naamah. And it's a modern, a very recent
translation done for Penguin Classics. And it says quite a bit about the origins of Naoros there.
Now, it's essentially its roots are Zoroastrian. Okay, so the prophet Zoroaster,
it's called Zerdashti in Kurdish. And yeah, it's a festival. Zoroastrians are sometimes
referred to as fire worshipers. They generally don't like that term. But fire is very important,
very sacred in Zoroastrianism. And therefore, fires are very important in the ceremonies.
You know, you have people walking with the lanterns up the mountain, particularly Akre
in Iraqi Kurdistan, where Michael Palin went on his travels and he wrote that. I don't think
he graduated from here, did he, Michael Palin? I don't think so. No, Monty Python's flying
circus, I don't think graced this Academy. But it's quite amusing to watch Michael Palin
going up the mountain with all of these Naoros celebrants. But it does mean slightly different
things to different people. Many of the people who celebrate Naoros are very upright Muslims,
and they would probably downplay the Zoroastrian elements to it. I mean, I'm going to say that as
a Christian, I'm happy celebrating Naoros, though I'm not Zoroastrian. We're going to come back to
that sort of thing. That's an important issue. Could you give us the Kurdish version then of the
narrative? Okay, so the folklore that's told in this epic poem. So Ferdowsi, roughly the time of
the Norman conquest, if you know, sort of 11th century kind of time, if I remember rightly,
and his Persian Book of Kings is longer than the Iliad and the Odyssey put together. And it's
written in poetry, in verse, and he was an amazing poet, teller of this sort of epic story of the
kings of Persia. And it's about the evil tyrant Zahak, who had snakes growing out of his shoulders.
And he oppressed the people of Persia. And they cried out for liberty, and he was sent
to liberation. And along came the noble blacksmith, Qawwa Asenger, as he's known in Kurdish. And he
managed to rally people to protest against the tyrant. Now, can you imagine that that motif is
quite significant? It has been in Persia, in Iran in the last couple of years, you know, they can
just lift from the ancient legend into contemporary grievances and protests.
So this kind of ancient legend is, you're saying, very much live?
Yeah.
In the stories and imaginations of Kurdish and Persian people right now?
Hugely, hugely.
Including many of whom will be here, of course, here in this country.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, in North London, you have a lot of Iranians around Finchley, and
then loads of Kurds in Enfield, Edmonton area, mainly Kurds from Turkey, for whom Nauru is maybe
a big thing. I mean, they usually have a big concert down sort of at Finsbury Park somewhere
around there. Now, there is a sort of clash this year with Ramadan, actually, Nauru is happening
during Ramadan, which can create a bit of a test of loyalty for Kurds. You know, do they say, look,
we'll just boot Nauru to after the Eid celebration? Or, you know, can we break our fast and then dance
afterwards? And I don't know how people will do it this year. Others will say, look, we weren't
originally Muslims anyway. They might say, well, we were Zoroastrian. Some might say, and there were
plenty of Christians in that region who did sort of bow the knee to Islam. And so it's a huge
ideological issue in people's minds when it comes to, you know, Nauru this year. And in Kurdistan,
there's a slight issue with the way that the legend is told originally in that the liberation,
the redemption takes place so that the oppressed people can return to their rightful Persian king.
Now, I've never heard a Kurd say, well, we celebrate the folklore of Kawa, the blacksmith,
redeeming us from the oppressor so that we could return to our true Persian king, because many
Kurds actually don't want to live under Persian Iranian rule anyway. And so that's interesting
to see the way that the folklore has been adapted for a Kurdish context. Yeah. Jerry, you said a
little bit earlier, you'd be quite happy to celebrate Nauru, but you're not a Zoroastrian.
So what's going on there? What are you thinking? So, I mean, I haven't said much about it. The fact
that it's the spring equinox. Okay. So equinox, it means that the day and the night are of equal
length on the 21st of March. Now, the arrival of spring is something that the Bible addresses in
Song of Songs. It talks about the time of spring has come and the cooing of the doves. It's a love
poem, the Song of Songs, but it's celebrating spring as something wonderful. And actually,
in a Kurdish context, that's very significant because you have a quite short window of time
between a harsh winter and a pretty brutal summer. So spring is something to be really
enjoyed while it lasts. A bit like the British days at the beach where just for a few days in
the year it's warm enough to be kind of- One afternoon in August, maybe. Something like that.
Yeah. So yeah, I'm very much, and I would say that it's true, the critique that evangelicals are often
strong on their doctrine of redemption and weak on their doctrine of creation. But the cash value
of that is do we actually enjoy God's creation? Or do we think that God is some sort of cosmic
spoil sports? We can slip into that way of thinking through a right zeal for the spreading
of the good news and the teaching of sound doctrine and things. But actually, I go back to
1 Timothy 6 about God has created all things for our enjoyment. There's nothing worldly about
enjoying the creation that God designed in all its beauty to be enjoyed. So I want to throw myself
wholeheartedly into celebrating with friends, whether they're Muslims, Yazidis or Zoroastrians
or whatever. And I do have a bone with the way that the environment is destroyed by people's
trash that they spread all over the countryside. So it's not just enjoying the volleyball and the
barbecues and stuff, but actually we should try and protest against people that are leaving trash
everywhere. That's another big issue. Okay. Well, we had a lecturer here, Dan Strange, who was big
into subversive fulfillment, if I could throw that phrase at you. And he picked that up obviously
from others, Hendrick Kramer, J.H. Bavinck, talking about the way that the gospel can kind of grab
hold of existing things and give them the lie, but also fulfill them or fulfill their aspirations
with true gospel content. Can you see that applying at all to Nauros, especially thinking about that
myth with Zahak and noble Kaur? Yeah. Well, I think there are amazing kind of striking resemblances
between the Nauros legend and the story of God's redemption in Christ. And so you could take the
whole nature of the world in which we live, where we do live under terrible tyranny at times. It
can be the government, the central government, it can be a bad husband, it can be a domineering
mother-in-law, it can be a bad boss, any of those things we experience. Economic systems, all sorts
of things. Yeah, yeah. All kinds of manipulation and oppression. It is a valley of tears that we
live in in so many ways. And if we're not aware of that, we're not going to connect with so many
people that we minister to in our neighborhoods. So there is a sort of value in just in mourning
over the way the world is, or else we're in cloud cuckoo land. People just think we're not real
people. But then we all long for some sort of hero figure that will set the world right. I mean,
think of all the Superman movies, the Marvel movies, they're just there to a penny, aren't they?
But in particular, there's this resemblance of Kaur, the blacksmith, to Jesus, the carpenter.
It's important to underline that he wasn't born in a palace. He didn't sort of just float around,
never getting his hands dirty. He worked as a carpenter, you know, and then he gave three years
of his life to a tenor in ministry, and he died as a sacrifice. Now, the thing that I haven't
mentioned about the Naurav's legend is that the way that Kaur redeemed the people under the control
of Zahak was that Zahak had to feed the snakes coming from his shoulders with the brains of
young people. It's a gruesome story. Parents will have to decide whether they want the full
detail in the story. I mean, actually, a lot of children's folklore is actually quite gruesome.
You know, the big bad wolf. A snake kind of devouring humanity. This is going to ring bell
for Christians, isn't it? Well, yeah, indeed. Yeah, the devil is pictured as a serpent.
And so Kaur decided to sacrifice sheep. Well, he actually sacrificed for every two people
that were being fed to Zahak. He killed one sheep and therefore saved one of the two. Slightly,
you know, sad part of the story that not everyone was saved through his act of redemption and
liberation like this. But it did mean that once the snakes were fed on the brains, one person could
be told, look, go out into the countryside. And that's how the Kurds mythologically described.
It's actually the manuscript. I haven't yet looked at it. It's apparently in the Bodleian Library in
Oxford of the Kurdish telling of this story from the, I think, the 1600s, maybe the late 16th century.
And in the Kurdish form of the legend, the people who were thus redeemed by this substitution,
then went to go off and live in the wild and develop their own civilization and develop
their own language. It's a very interesting description, which, you know, again, is it
historical? You know, what date did this really happen? Those sort of questions we might have.
No, I mean, it's a telling of a story which is folkloric, but yet it does ring true because
they've lived as this very separate people in the Zagros Mountains and have developed a language that
is certainly very different from Arabic and Turkish, but it's different even from Persian,
from which it comes. So that's sort of how the Kurds see themselves. Going back to Sharif Nama
Bitlisi and his legend, which I've got to find somewhere, the manuscript in the Bodleian.
So I see Jesus as the sort of true kawa, and he's come to destroy the devil's works.
One John says that, doesn't it? And so, yeah, I see Jesus as the, he's signposted by this
folklore, not in the same way that Jewish scripture specifically prophesies the coming of
Jesus, but I would say signposted because often the myths of the world bear this striking resemblance
to the true redemption story. Yeah. So there's that longing there for a redeemer. And in some
senses you want to say to your Kurdish friends, Jesus is the redeemer you've always been waiting
for. Yeah, exactly. And there is another point that's quite kind of close to the bone is that
one Kurd said to me, our problem is that kawa has becomes a huck. So you think of, I mean,
any country where someone comes in saying, you know, away with the old, with the new.
Kawa has become the huck. Becomes the huck, meaning the so-called liberators have become the
oppressors. Right. So often, you know, the people who come and say, look, we're making all things
new and, you know, a new system and now we've got self-rule and we've done away with Europe,
let's say, to put a slightly, you know, to bring it home to Britain today. Well, you know, actually,
often these people end up, you think, well, they're no better than the previous guy, you know.
Putting your hope in apparent earthly liberators. Yeah.
That will in the end disappoint. Exactly. Yeah.
Every, every people group on earth has learned that. Yeah.
I mean, just in talking with Kurdish friends, both in Kurdistan and here, have you found
that just, have you found there's been kind of, the conversations have been fruitful when you've
been able to say, do you know, I have a similar story or similar story, you know,
something like that? You know, I would, I've not done it enough to know, you know, to see
that many people's reaction to it. But, you know, I have flagged it up and I'd like to write more
just to really spell it out and explain more about, you know, how Jesus by His blood has stepped in
to our place, taking the punishment we deserve so that we can go free. Yeah.
And it takes time to spell it out for people. Of course, of course.
On your recommendation, Jerry, I had a Kurdish barber and I, when you sat in the chair,
you got lots of time to talk. His English was up to it. We talked about it and asked him a little
bit about it and talked a little bit about maybe Jesus is the kower that you've been waiting for.
And people just are fascinated to know that you know a little bit of their history.
And I was just wondering, we've got lots of Kurdish people living in our communities around our
churches. We perhaps don't really know how to engage. Do you think Nowruz is a good time of
year? Could we host a party in our buildings or would that be outrageous? Or should we go along to
people's existing parties? How can we begin to share the gospel story with our friends here in
the UK who've come from that region? Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the things that
thousands, millions of people are facing at the moment around the world in this kind of
world of mass migration is that they ended up in a new place and they feel friendless.
And Kurds actually give their children some curious names like Baqes, meaning without a person,
you know, like friendless. And they like to express their angst and grief in the names they
even give to their children. And so it's a very real part of their experiences. They say no
friends but the mountains. Havol nina jibili ciayan. That's just a very common descriptor that
Kurds use of themselves. But I pray and I'm sure this is happening in many places that Kurds are
finding a warm welcome from followers of Jesus in their local communities who do, you know, okay,
they don't know maybe that much about Kurdish culture, but perhaps they know the difference
between Kurdistan, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, you know, which is a must be a familiar frustration
for Kurds. And just receiving a welcome or someone in the barber's chair to say, I've heard a bit
about Nauros, your new year and this amazing story about the, you know, the black, you don't need to
remember everything, but just a little bit of the basic plot line. And they'll just be so pleased
that you know something about their history. And it's quite soul destroying in a way to be
in a place where people, they just, I mean, they might treat you as sort of being a foreigner,
you know. And then if they think you're just an Arab or a Turk or a sort of a Muslim in the sense
that as if that summarized who you were. I mean, people just must feel so frustrated by that kind
of reception from people who are not maybe actively racist, but are not very warmhearted.
Yeah, I mean, many people of the UK, I mean, if you're Scottish, you know, when you go, let's say
to the United States and they just talk about you like you're English. I've got plenty of Scottish
friends who winds them up. And I, it's a similar kind of thing, but coming back, you both mentioned
Kurdish barbers. Just give us a, Jeremy, just give us a sense of, I mean, roughly the numbers
of Kurdish people now in the UK, where they've tended to settle the kinds of occupations they
found. Just give us that kind of orientation. I mean, the ballpark figure of sort of 300,000
Kurds in the UK might be about right. In the late 80s. I mean, that's a decent sized city, isn't it?
It is, yeah. It's a significant population. And then a lot of those are young men who will likely
bring a bride over from Kurdistan and then have children. So that population could increase
significantly in coming years. But in the late 80s, a lot of people from central Eastern Anatolia,
our Levy Kurds came over and settled in the Haringey Enfield kind of area.
Anatolia, so we're talking Turkey kind of area. Yeah. Yeah. So Turkish Kurds. And then the Home
Office sort of moved away from that model of almost sort of ghettoized communities into more
of a dispersal scheme. But actually that happens anyway in terms of Kurds who learn the trade of
barbering and then want to go to a market town, sort of friendly face, engaging people. That's
the sort of feedback people give Kurdish people. They're friendly lot. And so they're going to make
good barbers. And so that's the way to make a decent living is finding a market town that
doesn't have a traditional Turkish barber and you set up shop there. So that's what we're seeing
around the UK. So if I see a sign above a shop that says Turkish barber, which increasingly I do,
is it quite likely that it's a Kurd? Yeah, it's most likely an Iraqi Kurd working there. Yeah.
Yeah. You thought quite a lot about the shop, the High Street as a communal area. We Westerners,
we go to the High Street. Usually we go to do a transaction, get something, especially
us males, we're in and out fairly quickly. But for Kurdish people and people from that broader
region, there's more of a sense of community extension into the shop area, whether it be a
barber's or a grocer's or perhaps even a kebab shop or something, a Kurdish restaurant, something
like that. And the women tend to be more communal around the home, if I've got this right. And the
men tend to be more communal around the High Street shops. Can you say a little bit about that and
how that might present opportunities for British Christians to wander down the High Street and
hang out? Actually, just in a small way, I've noticed this in the small area here, the local
barbers I go to, I don't think that it's not run by Kurdish people, but I just kind of person I am
by background, I go in, I get my haircut, I check the barber, I go away. And I only never think of
going unless I need my haircut again. But there are regularly people dropping in and I'm looking
at you going, you look like you had a haircut last week. Yeah, yeah, sure. And they've just dropped
into chat. It's clearly a very different culture to mine. Yeah. So I mean, I wrote an article called,
what was it? I think it's shop and restaurant. Engaging with shop and restaurant communities.
And I intended that to be a, that normally we don't, it's a, what's the word, oxymoron,
that normally shop and community don't go together. You know, a shop is somewhere where you go in for
a quick exchange of goods. And that's different from a community. But you often find, yeah, the
shops are just an outflow of a community with perhaps an extended family working there and
people from a similar background. And it's often a place where children are kind of apprenticed
in real life, you know, to learn how to serve customers and represent their country in some
sense. I mean, it's soft skills, obviously, that you're teaching in many cases, but yeah. And so
I think that, you know, if you really want to reach people with the good news of Jesus, then
it can be a good thing to go back to the same shops and get to know people, show an interest in
them and their culture, how their kids are doing at school, those sort of things. And bit by bit
and bit by bit show yourself to be more interested in them than your average customer just comes in
for the pint of milk. Yeah. What kind of, to engage with that, both when you were living in
Kirshir, is now you're back here. What kind of, because it's not natural in my culture, nor in
your original culture, what kind of mind shifts or heart shifts did you have to kind of deliberately
work through in order really to engage with that? I mean, let me give you one, one problem is that
we in the West, we have quite a sort of social hierarchy based on, you know, graduate jobs with
doctors and engineers and barristers at the top of, you know, all that sort of snobbery. And so
therefore you kind of think, well, maybe the shopkeeper is not so terribly intellectual.
You wouldn't ever say that, but you can often think that. Whereas actually, I've had some
incredibly intellectual conversations, you know, with philosophical falafel makers, let's say,
you know, and maybe they have more time to think and listen to, you know, YouTube and stuff because
they're doing a manual job than someone who's just so busy doing accountancy that he doesn't
have much time to think about, you know, the big issues and current affairs, you know. And if I go
into a shop thinking, okay, I've heard this, it's a local shop, I know it's run by Kurdish people,
praying, it'd be lovely if there's a conversation. The voice of, because of who I am, the voice of
God in my head is, what they really want you to do is make your purchase, pay your money and leave,
otherwise you're getting in their way. What, just paint more of a picture of, from the,
from the Kurdish shop owners point of view, what's their view of the customers who come
in and the kind of interactions that they would love to have? Good question. Let's say with someone
like me walking into the store. I mean, there are, there are sort of some various practical issues
there that there's rush hour and there's non rush hour in shops. So, you know, if you can,
and you know, some pastors do have time mid morning, you know, where they can go into a
shop and expect a cup of tea, you know, not demand a cup of tea, but you know, they'll likely have
time, you know, for a more extended conversation, which is just not appropriate when all the kids
are coming out of school. So there's practical issues like that. I think that, I think people
can be bored by the routine of, you know, another packet of cigarettes and another, you know,
pint of milk, but so they're happy to talk, you know, but I always go back to that sense that God
has given us two ears and one mouth, you know, and, and even those of us who are thinking, okay,
I want to serve the gospel, but we're still acting with the kind of one ear, two mouths, sort of
kind of paradigm where, where we just want to talk because we think, Hey, now, now I understand
their worldview and I want to sort of speak into it. No, you can find that people can be from,
you know, they might have very different, you know, depending on how seriously they take
their religion that they were brought up with. And then, you know, they on the left or the right
of the political spectrum and you know, what do they think of Turkey now with the big shift
in a more Islamic direction, you know, do they welcome that or do they think that's awful? And
that's why they're in Britain, you know, any of those things are just good questions to ask, you
know, how do you find Turkey today? You know, are you pleased with the way things are developing?
And, you know, that, that then allows you to gauge where, where people are at, or just look behind
the counter and see, are they selling booze? Because you might think, well, if they're a Muslim,
why would they be selling alcohol? And often, especially in North London, it's because they're
Alevies and there is no prohibition against drinking alcohol, you know, Alevies. So they're,
they're kind of technically Shiites, but, but not like extreme Shiites that you see in Iran, but
they're, they're, they're more humanist, a little bit like the Quakers in Christian history,
dissented from the mainstream. And, and often they would see themselves as very much humanists.
And you can get into some very interesting conversations with the ways in which they feel
they've been oppressed by, by, by the majority religion. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's say you,
you knock up some friendships like this, you spend some time with people and there's some
receptivity, people become Christians. Let's say they've got Islamic names, for example,
you've written recently an article called Dear Pastor Mohammed, isn't it about time you changed
your name or something like that, which hopefully will roll out as a blog. What's your take on that?
Is it, is it better for them to have their name changed? Like Saul had his name changed to Paul.
Yeah. What, what do you think, Jerry? So I think, read, read the article. It's, I think there's a
great, there can be a great mistake in thinking, or, you know, someone who's become a follower of
Jesus and they're called Mohammed, really they should have their name changed. And the thing is
that often, especially from Iraq, if you're called Mohammed, it's often because your grandfather was
called Mohammed. And so it's perfectly possible to say, I, I, I like being called Mohammed. It's,
it reminds me of my grandfather. Okay. He wasn't a follower of Jesus, but he taught me lots about,
you know, keeping bees and, you know, how to, how to prune an apple tree. And, and, you know, so
it goes back to the fifth commandment, honor your father and your mother, that when people come to
faith in Jesus, we don't expect them to be cut off from their family or to make a mess of their,
you know, their, their sandwich shop, because suddenly you're insisting they change their name.
Everyone knows him as Hamma or Mohammed or something, you know. So I think that, and, and even
the name Mohammed, actually, if you look at it, it actually has a very good meaning of, you know,
praiseworthy. And so that's the meaning of the name Mohammed is praiseworthy. Okay. So the, the
might be reasons people take on an additional name. And that can be something very constructive,
you know, that, I mean, in Kurdish, there are some wonderful names that are very common, like
Shivan meaning shepherd. Can you, have you thought of any shepherds that you admire Tim? There's
that guy from Palestine. Well, well, exactly. He was, yeah. Or Rezvan meaning vine dresser, or even
the name of the New Testament in Kurdish is Mezgini. And Mezgin is a common name, meaning,
you know, good news. Mezgini means good news. And so it's wonderful that there are names like that,
that, yeah, that can be used as, as very Kurdish names and go for many other cultures around the
world, that you can take things from the existing culture and, and breathe, you know, real Christian
intentionality into them. Okay. And of course, we're not the only people to think missiologically
about what to do when people from other backgrounds, from other religious backgrounds,
become Christians. You dug up something that William Carey had written in 1805, tackling this
very issue, didn't you? Yeah. It was a very poor agreement. Yeah. And these are the early days where
this, these guys were serving the gospel in, yeah, in Bengal. And, and it was, it's a short
document actually, that they don't cover things exhaustively about the practice of mission. But
one of the things they do put their finger on is we don't force new names on, on converts. And then
they say, well, that's because the apostles didn't insist on new names for, what was the list? Phoebe
was one of them. Phoebe, my daughter's called Phoebe. Oh, and I liked, yeah, Epaphroditus.
Epaphroditus. This article you've written, we will put out as a blog on the,
College of Episodes, and we could too. Epaphroditus. It had never occurred to me,
until I read your article. It means from Aphrodite. Exactly. And they happily live,
happily live with him as a Christian. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So your, your, your daughter's pagan name
in the clear. Yes. Well, I didn't know it when I called her it, but now having heard you, Jerry,
I think I still would have called her Phoebe. So there we go. So let's not put pressure on
people from Muslim backgrounds to change their Islamic names. Yeah. But Al-Aziz,
keep them because there might be a whole range of reasons, plus the New Testament precedent for,
for keeping them. Yeah. And it's also just to do with focusing on the real change that is important.
You know, it's not about the change of clothing. Right. Some, sadly, some converts in parts of the
world just end up dressing like Westerners. And that's just a terrible departure from the culture
that there's nothing wrong with that, you know, way of dressing in a distinctly African way.
Or a way of dressing in a distinctly African or Chinese or Brazilian way, you know. So same with,
with names is that we want our name in biblical terms is our character. And it's, we want to shine
a new character that is full of kindness, compassion, humility. That's the name change
that really counts. On names, Jeremy, there was a very famous American man that lived in Kurdistan
called Roger Cumberland. Could you tell us about Roger Cumberland, please? Yeah. So on June the 12th,
1938, Roger Cumberland had lived for 12 years among, well, 15 years in total. He lived there
among the Kurds and he was shot dead in his own home because people had been coming to,
it's still debated as to why he was killed. But undoubtedly part of it was that people,
Muslims had been becoming followers of Jesus. And there was a lot of pushback and consternation that
Kurds were going to turn to Christ en masse really. And so he was, he was shot dead. And,
but yet his, his legend is sort of lived on. And my concern has been that his house, which is slightly
dilapidated, still remains in the centre of Tahuk where we lived. And you can visit it as a tourist
attraction. Well, they're trying to restore it so that it will be a museum. And his daughter,
before she died last year, said, I want it to be a peace, a centre for peace and reconciliation.
And the local authorities are honouring that and are seeking to restore it as a sort of period
peace house. And people are just fascinated by a man who came in, he didn't learn Arabic,
but he did learn he was fluent in Kurdish and he earned the respect of the people.
And, and I've done a webinar about him and have been interviewed for a documentary film about him.
So I'm looking forward to his story being, it's a brilliant, amazing story. And I'm looking to
still editing his letters and looking to make his story better known.
When you say you've been interviewed for a documentary, is that on Kurdish TV or BBC?
That's done by a Kurdish film filmmaker. We'll see what gets put out. But even the short videos
that have been made about him, even the ones that are slightly critical of him, 147,000 people
viewing it on Facebook, just huge interest in his life. And they don't know the half of what a
colourful and adventurous character he was. Jeremy, thank you so much for coming down to
be with us for this podcast. This kind of thing, because I'm not the Missyologist around here,
who you are, but it just opens my eyes to the kind of world perspective we all ought to have.
And just the sheer numbers, I mean, you said 300,000 Kurdish people set up home in this country.
Many will bring over a wife. They'll have a family, they'll put down roots here. This is
a large number of people. For someone listening into this, who's a resident of the UK,
or any area where there are Kurdish people as neighbours, what would you want them to kind of
take on board as an insight or a truth to lodge in their hearts?
One of the things, Tim, is that we tend to read our Bible through the lens of American and European,
perhaps Australian theologians. Now, all of these places are miles, thousands of miles away from the
biblical action. Now, the way that the God's Spirit is moving is that many more people from
the Bible lands, if you like, are coming to faith in Christ and are studying their Bibles afresh.
And they do take note of, let's say, the Queen of Sheba. She came from Yemen, right?
And is that happening among Kurds as well? We know about Iranians, but as well?
Yeah, well, there are much smaller numbers, but increasing numbers of Syrian Kurds particularly.
But what I'm saying here is that as Western Christians, we've got to get back to seeing that,
I know, Dave, you've told me about how Ethiopians, they know Psalm 68, I think.
Oh, that's right.
And, you know, I mean, there are promises for, you know, people, you know, from Iraq, people
used to talk about how, you know, Assyria and Egypt are mentioned in Isaiah 19. There was one
conference where there were Egyptians and then Assyrian Christians. And they were just very
fascinated by this promise that, you know, us Brits are just, if we get a mention at all,
we're the far off distant coastlands, you know, the far off islands. And that's where we get a
mention in Isaiah, you know. So I think that's part of it is to realize that there are, you know,
there is a particular way that God addresses those who are from, you know, the Middle East and those
nations around, the table of nations, for example. You know, you can find many modern nations to
some extent there, addressed in Genesis 10.
So it's just sitting down where possible, reading the Bible with these folks who,
in a sense, see themselves more directly than I might do.
Yeah. And just being really looked at another example, you know, Ruth was a Jordanian, you know.
Really? She was a Moabite. I suppose she was, you know. But it's just, we don't think that way. And
yet, let's not say that, you know, that makes the Jordanians any more important or the Kurds
any more important. That's a fallacy. But actually the fact that, you know, the Medes were there at
the Day of Pentecost together with the Parthians and the Elamites, which is Iran, you know,
and residents of Mesopotamia, which is Iraq, you know, like the Brits clearly weren't there,
but these nations were. And I think we should cherish those things and show how relevant the
Bible is, lest they think, oh, this is a man with his American religion or something.
With his Western religion.
Which is just so wrong-headed, you know.
Thank you. That's a wonderful insight. A very helpful one to end on. It's been great to have a
former student of college here on the podcast. Thank you so much for coming down. Every blessing
to you in your ongoing work and ministry. We trust that this episode of Deep Roots has been a real
blessing to you. We'll be posting the next one in a month's time. See you then.