1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,520 Hi everyone, welcome to the Oak Hill podcast, Deep Roots, conversations about theology and 2 00:00:05,520 --> 00:00:09,840 ministry. Thank you for being with us. My name is Eric and I teach Hebrew and Old Testament 3 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:10,840 at Oak Hill. 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,720 My name is Andrew Nicholls. I'm director of pastoral care here. 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:19,960 My name is Tim Ward and I teach preaching and teaching and Bible interpretation. 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,040 And Tim, you are in the hot seat today. 7 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,740 This is the hot seat and I am in it. 8 00:00:25,740 --> 00:00:30,200 Also you've been doing a lot of thinking and reading about preaching, the theology of preaching, 9 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,560 the nature of application. 10 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,280 We'd like to pick your brain on that. So lead us into this subject. 11 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:42,040 Yes, I've normally sat on that side. It's nice to be over here. 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,760 Yeah, we said we talk about preaching. 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,800 And I want to put on the table the question of the theology of preaching. 14 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,720 Theologically, what is preaching? 15 00:00:54,720 --> 00:01:00,320 And I think, and I think I'm not the only one who thinks this, that in some evangelical 16 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:06,560 circles, not all, but kind of generally, that's been an area that hasn't been as worked over 17 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:13,680 and thought through theologically maybe as some other areas of our theology. 18 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,480 And I also want to think about application. 19 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:22,040 I think many, many preachers would feel it's in and around application that I can feel 20 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:23,040 weakest. 21 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:28,320 I mean, not everybody, I'm generalizing, but that's what I felt for myself and I've heard 22 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:30,320 a lot from others. 23 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:37,440 And I think over the years, it's kind of dawned on me that really good thinking about the 24 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:43,320 theology of preaching is necessary for really good application. 25 00:01:43,320 --> 00:01:47,360 And if application is weaker, I mean, that can be for a number of reasons, but it might 26 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:54,280 be because below the surface, there's either a poor theology of preaching going on or maybe 27 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,600 one that's not been thought through as richly as it might have been. 28 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:02,080 So yeah, so those two topics, what is preaching theologically? 29 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,840 What actually is good application? 30 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:06,640 What it try to do? 31 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:07,640 What will it sound like? 32 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:09,640 What will it feel like? 33 00:02:09,640 --> 00:02:13,160 Yeah, those are things that have been going around my mind for a while. 34 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:18,400 Okay, so Tim, can you tell us what's brought this to your attention? 35 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,520 Why you feel a sense of urgency about this? 36 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,200 What ministers stand to gain here? 37 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:31,200 You know, the really kind of personal, what brought this to my attention is a few years 38 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:37,080 ago, I was teaching on another course, had a happy time teaching at the Cornhill Training 39 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:43,560 Course, which trains people in teaching and preaching the Bible. 40 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:49,400 And it did dawn on me early on in my time there that I didn't feel that I had a very 41 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:54,120 good theological description for what preaching is, which felt like a bit of a lack for someone 42 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,280 who, for whom frankly, training people to do that thing is your day job. 43 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,720 The question that sort of floated around that is, I think I had a reasonable grasp of a 44 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:09,120 theology of word ministry in the round, as in what is going on? 45 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:14,200 What is God doing when people encounter the word of God in whatever form? 46 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:18,760 You know, reading it for themselves or in a small group or hearing a sermon. 47 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,960 Yes, that, but the whole question of is there something distinctive about preaching or is 48 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,720 there not? 49 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:32,520 That was something I felt was a bit of a gap in my thinking. 50 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,480 You ask what preachers have to gain from this? 51 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:43,080 Just at the simplest level, if a preacher has never really engaged seriously with the 52 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:50,880 question, do my Sunday sermons have something theological distinctive, theologically distinctive 53 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:57,720 about them that my evangelistic one-to-one in a coffee shop doesn't have? 54 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:05,320 Now, clearly I've got a view on that, which I'm fairly invested in persuading people is 55 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,040 right because it's not just my view. 56 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,160 It's a, you know, it's got good historical pedigree to it. 57 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:15,000 But even before that, I think I'm much more interested in getting people to realise that 58 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,560 that's a question worth thinking about because I don't think I'd thought about it for a while 59 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:20,560 in ministry. 60 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,000 And I think I've met a lot of people who haven't. 61 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,920 I suspect many people listening to this podcast are thinking, man, you were slow on the uptake. 62 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:27,920 I thought about this. 63 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:28,920 Fair enough. 64 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,800 But for someone who hasn't thought about it, why is it worth thinking about? 65 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:37,640 In simple terms, it's because the historic reform tradition, the absolute mainstream 66 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,460 of the historic reform tradition has been pretty confident that there is something theologically 67 00:04:42,460 --> 00:04:48,240 distinctive about what we would call the Sunday sermon in the main gathering of the local 68 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:49,240 church. 69 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:55,040 And if someone generally wants to be reformed with a bigger or smaller capital R, let's 70 00:04:55,040 --> 00:05:02,360 say in their doctrines of grace and doctrines of salvation, they ought at least, I think, 71 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:08,560 to take account of what that same tradition has wanted to say about ministry, theologically, 72 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:09,840 particularly preaching. 73 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:14,560 And yeah, if you're a Protestant, you're entirely free to distend from the tradition, 74 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,360 apparently without too much cost. 75 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:17,480 And that's all fine. 76 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:18,480 And that's all fine. 77 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,120 But at least face up squarely. 78 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:26,320 I mean, in simple terms, if you really love reformed doctrines of grace, face up squarely 79 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:31,640 to what people who believed that also believed about ministry. 80 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:37,560 And they saw their soteriology and their doctrines of ministry linked. 81 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:42,160 You don't have to agree, but at least face up to what's been out there. 82 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:49,240 So tell us what the theology of preaching is among reformed theologians that you would 83 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:50,240 say. 84 00:05:50,240 --> 00:06:00,520 It is that there is, I think the way I put it is that the, as it were, the exemplary, 85 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:08,280 the central, the kind of primordial encounter that the people of God have with the Word 86 00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:16,880 of God is as they gather in order to hear it preached by God's appointed ministers, 87 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,440 that it's particularly in that gathering. 88 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,600 So at this point, you see already in answering your question about the theology of preaching, 89 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:27,240 I'm also talking about the theology of the gathering, the main gathering of believers. 90 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:33,120 And again, at least in my experience, others tuning in may be completely different. 91 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:39,320 At least in my experience, I think a lot of folks I've known, I've needed to do some 92 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:44,400 sort of plain catch up on what is my theology of a Sunday gathering? 93 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:51,400 Is the Sunday gathering just kind of theologically the same as a small group Bible study or a 94 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:57,440 Christian conference and only pragmatically different or is there a theologically, is 95 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,560 there something theologically distinctive about it? 96 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:05,680 And I think that the mainstream referral tradition wants to say that the Sunday, we would call 97 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:15,480 the main Sunday gathering, is a distinctive biblical theological thing, a particular event 98 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:20,760 in the life of the church, which is in biblical theological continuity, well, starting with 99 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:29,640 Sinai and the gatherings of Israel, that in our gatherings now looks up to and in some 100 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,360 way participates in the heavenly gathering. 101 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:39,840 And so it's a key moment when we mark who we are as the people of God, looking forward 102 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,960 to our gathering around the throne. 103 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:51,560 And let's say Hebrews chapter 12 very much has got the main Christian gathering in mind 104 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,280 and sets it very much in that kind of context. 105 00:07:55,280 --> 00:08:02,320 And so if that's what's going on in the gathering, then the preaching of the word by the ministry 106 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:10,080 in that gathering is, I mean, in the words of William Perkins, around 1600, wrote a book, 107 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,840 The Art of Prophecy, extremely influential. 108 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:19,680 I mean, very early on, maybe even beyond page one, he talks of preaching as a place in which 109 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:25,800 the Lord gathers the elect and drives away wolves. 110 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:34,700 And that particular divine act is particularly going on in the main gathering. 111 00:08:34,700 --> 00:08:42,280 So what I'm hearing is theology of preaching elevates the Sunday morning sermon in all 112 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:48,620 the different ways the Christian encounters the word of God that is elevated both in importance 113 00:08:48,620 --> 00:08:54,260 and intensity and biblically, theologically in terms of all covenant means of grace and 114 00:08:54,260 --> 00:08:58,540 looking forward ahead eschatologically to the new creation, that the Sunday morning 115 00:08:58,540 --> 00:09:05,880 sermon has especially unusually distinctively strong ties to earlier and later forms of 116 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:06,880 worship. 117 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:07,880 That's what I'm hearing. 118 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,080 You summarized in about 23 seconds what I rambled on for about three minutes. 119 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:13,080 That's brilliant. 120 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:14,080 Thanks, Eric. 121 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:15,080 Can you write that down for me? 122 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:16,080 Because I'm learning from the best. 123 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:17,080 That's why. 124 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,800 So reform theologians have helped you in this. 125 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:26,560 If you were pushed, how would you justify that theology of preaching biblically? 126 00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:31,800 You mentioned Hebrews 12. 127 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:38,320 I'm persuaded that if we are looking in scripture for an understanding of what happens when 128 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:48,680 Christians gather, you get places like Hebrews 12, which put it in the context of Sinai. 129 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:52,480 The New Testament language, the Greek word ecclesia for the gatherings. 130 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:57,600 That's also the word used in the Greek Old Testament for those particular gatherings 131 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,440 of Israel in the first century. 132 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,480 It's in the Greek form that many would have been encountering the Old Testament. 133 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:13,000 The New Testament writers, it's very likely that they're using that word rather deliberately. 134 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:20,720 In addition, you get Paul in 2 Corinthians chapter 3 speaking of his own ministry and 135 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:26,200 again in Sinai terms. 136 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:33,760 I think it's one of those topics where if someone's criterion for saying a theology 137 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,440 is really taught in the Bible is I need a proof text, I need a verse. 138 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,400 If you can't give me that, I'm not going to buy it. 139 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,800 There's probably an understanding of preaching that they're going to struggle to think is 140 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:48,960 really clearly there in scripture. 141 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:55,200 This is how I think a number of reformed theological instincts come into play here. 142 00:10:55,200 --> 00:11:03,760 If you are someone who thinks that if something is there by good and necessary consequence, 143 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:07,640 then I think you're more likely to see it there. 144 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:15,040 It seems to me it is good and necessary consequence from the kinds of passages we're talking about. 145 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:20,400 You put the pieces together and this starts to look like this is the New Testament's view 146 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,360 of what's going on in the gathering. 147 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:28,840 It's very helpful to hear you contrast the view that is looking for a proof text and 148 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,000 the view that is seeing the development of a theme. 149 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,880 I was just dipping into Hebrews 12 since you mentioned it. 150 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,680 There's a language about you haven't come to a mountain that can be touched, but you 151 00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:41,680 have come to a mountain. 152 00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:45,760 You've come to Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. 153 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,800 There's a strong eschatological sense about that. 154 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,480 Then there's verse 25, see to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. 155 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:55,480 Yes. 156 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,760 There's a strong sense that God is addressing this assembly now. 157 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,640 It can't just be all about a future reality. 158 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,840 There's an embodiment, there's an experience of it in the here and now. 159 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,760 God speaks to a gathered assembly. 160 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:10,760 That's a big deal. 161 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:11,760 Absolutely. 162 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:17,200 There's a number of things going on in Hebrews, which I think towards the end point clearly 163 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,680 towards the, it is the gathering that's in view. 164 00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:23,960 So a little bit earlier, chapter 10, don't give up meeting together a summer in the habit 165 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:26,960 of doing. 166 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:32,120 Then a little bit later, chapter 13, it's obey your leaders. 167 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,120 I can't remember the exact wording. 168 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:35,520 Is it 13, seven? 169 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,680 Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you considering the outcome of their 170 00:12:38,680 --> 00:12:39,680 way of life. 171 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:40,680 Okay. 172 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:41,680 Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. 173 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:42,680 Yeah. 174 00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:46,740 So between, don't give up meeting together. 175 00:12:46,740 --> 00:12:48,280 Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. 176 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,400 You've got that very interesting line that you just quoted in chapter 12. 177 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,520 Do not, see that you do not refuse him who speaks. 178 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,520 And some of the commentaries, I think some of the sharper ones grapple with, who is him 179 00:12:58,520 --> 00:12:59,640 who speaks there? 180 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,160 You said it's the Lord. 181 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:10,440 But you might say it's the one appointed to deliver the words to the people or, or maybe 182 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:11,440 it's both. 183 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,680 Maybe it's very deliberately the Lord speaking through the one appointed. 184 00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:20,560 And then I ought to, let me happen to Hebrews. 185 00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:25,360 The other thing I'd throw into the mix there, which is, I think as far as I'm aware, has 186 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,680 been increasingly pointed out by writers on, I mean, it's been noted for a long time, but 187 00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:32,880 writers on Hebrews have increasingly pointed this out. 188 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,480 Right towards the end of Hebrews chapter 13 verse 22, he says, brothers and sisters, I 189 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:46,400 urge you to bear with my word of exhortation, word of exhortation, Greek, logos tast paraklesios. 190 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:53,400 That is the kind, the semi-technical term for a sermon in the Greek, the Greek term 191 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,520 for it in a synagogue in the first century. 192 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:57,560 Interesting. 193 00:13:57,560 --> 00:14:02,920 And quite a number of writers on Hebrews build on that and say, okay, Hebrews really is in 194 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,320 the structure of a sermon. 195 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:11,640 It may be the first kind of full extant Christian sermon that we have. 196 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:19,680 So what you've got is the whole letter self-describes as sermon in ways that would have been recognizable. 197 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,200 It talks about not giving up meeting together. 198 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:28,200 It talks about, remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you and you don't 199 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,320 refuse him who speaks and you've not come to a mount. 200 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:41,120 I mean, if someone says, okay, I'm still not buying. 201 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:45,800 I'm struggling to escape the conclusion that something distinctive about those who speak 202 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:51,320 the word in this Sinai model assembly that we now have seems to be pretty compelling 203 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:52,320 something like that's going on. 204 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,240 Tim, of course, you are not saying that God can't speak his word powerfully through the 205 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:57,240 Spirit. 206 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,920 I had my devotions this morning or pastor meeting one on one, but there is something 207 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,320 distinctive and unique about Sunday morning. 208 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:08,040 Yeah, that's absolutely crucial to say that. 209 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:16,000 And if I had a worry about the theology of preaching, the worry is precisely that it 210 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:23,280 over-exalts the pulpit, over-exalts the Sunday sermon and diminishes and demeans us ministering 211 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,000 the word one to another. 212 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:30,680 That is always a danger within this theological understanding of preaching. 213 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,880 Now, I think it's a danger that can be countered. 214 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:43,040 And I think denying it as a theology of preaching is a fairly effective means of exalting personal 215 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:44,040 Bible reading. 216 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,400 But I think it swaps one set of problems from another set. 217 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:48,400 Sure. 218 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:53,480 Two of the verses that come to mind in Romans 10, Paul asks, how will they hear the gospel 219 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,800 of whom they have not heard? 220 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,640 And the Greek is a kua with the genitive, which doesn't mean to hear about, but to hear 221 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:04,720 someone speaking the word so that Christ himself is speaking. 222 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,720 Now, this isn't talking specifically about Sunday morning. 223 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:13,240 And yet through Paul's apostolic preaching, they're hearing Jesus. 224 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,300 You get a similar verse in Ephesians 2 about Christ preaching to those who were near those 225 00:16:17,300 --> 00:16:18,300 who are far. 226 00:16:18,300 --> 00:16:22,080 It probably doesn't literally mean Jesus went and preached to people living in ancient 227 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:23,120 Turkey or something. 228 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:32,000 And yet through the apostolic preaching, people had heard Jesus as if they had heard him deliver 229 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,320 the Sermon on the Mount or something. 230 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,000 That's what I understand those verses to say. 231 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,000 Yeah, I agree with you on the Romans 10 one. 232 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:45,480 As I remember, the commentaries are pretty divided on that. 233 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,200 I'm persuaded that he's speaking of Christ as the one who is preaching. 234 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,340 I think that's absolutely right. 235 00:16:52,340 --> 00:16:57,680 So tell us more about your thinking about the material impact, how this changes how 236 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:03,240 you preach and especially how you apply. 237 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,180 Currently my best straightforward way, I mean, I'll probably come hopefully come up with 238 00:17:07,180 --> 00:17:12,360 better ones over time, my best straightforward way of trying to express the difference that 239 00:17:12,360 --> 00:17:17,440 this makes is in preaching. 240 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:24,960 It is not so much that we are, as it were, saying, look, look, everybody, ignore me, 241 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:26,960 look, look. 242 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:39,200 It is more through me as I now stand here, the Lord is speaking this word to you. 243 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,880 That's a fairly deliberately stark way of expressing it, slightly provocative because 244 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:50,000 it feels like in many ways that should be the right, not me, but this should be right. 245 00:17:50,000 --> 00:18:00,080 And this has all the dangers of the very clear and present dangers of frankly, preachers 246 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,400 who are too big for their boots and are developing an authority they shouldn't have and that 247 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:05,400 they can abuse. 248 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,240 And we need to face that full in the face. 249 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:19,160 But it seems to me all sorts of good doctrines are only half a step away from error and abuse. 250 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:20,680 They're always in that danger. 251 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:25,000 That doesn't mean they're bad doctrines, it just means we've got to do them really well. 252 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:32,580 That distinction, I find exemplified in, I guess, two of the most influential preachers 253 00:18:32,580 --> 00:18:38,480 in Britain in the 20th century, John Stott and Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones. 254 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:43,400 And their two books, Stott's book, I believe in preaching, published in the States, I think 255 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:50,840 is Between Two Worlds, and Lloyd-Jones' book, Preaching and Preachers, make for an absolutely 256 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:52,840 fascinating comparison. 257 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,960 I do think people should continue to read both of those books. 258 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:01,920 I mean, increasingly they will be of their time, written by the men who wrote them, and 259 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,600 that's fine, everything's like that. 260 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,840 But there's great wisdom and I think great insight into what influenced preaching in 261 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:13,440 Britain particularly in the 20th century. 262 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:18,400 What Stott basically says, I think at a key moment is, the preacher should stand back, 263 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:19,400 not me. 264 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:20,400 Don't look at me, don't look at me. 265 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,200 The Bible in Jesus, the Bible in Jesus. 266 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,480 You know, little plaques you sometimes get in pulpits, that quote from the scriptures, 267 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:28,480 so we would see Jesus. 268 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:29,480 Turn up, pulpit. 269 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:30,480 Yeah. 270 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:40,680 There is a wonderful truth in that, as a warning, we don't, I haven't come here to hear your 271 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,960 wisdom, Mr. Preacher person. 272 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:49,280 I've come here to hear the Lord Jesus, and if I haven't come here to hear the Lord Jesus, 273 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,600 it's Jesus you should be giving me. 274 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:57,920 But I think Lloyd-Jones' way of putting it, no, no, something, and he'll get all flarrery, 275 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:08,680 it's his style of writing and expressing himself, thrilling through you to the people. 276 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:16,520 I think captures better this biblical notion that the great shepherd appoints undershepherds 277 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:21,520 through whom he will pastor the flock. 278 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:30,640 It seems to me, you're addressing a thought I've often found myself wrestling with, that 279 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:37,240 it feels like it should be possible on, if I can crudely, the stock model to say, not 280 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:38,880 me, just look at the text. 281 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,960 Is it possible for that to be done by someone who wasn't themselves personally moved by 282 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:42,960 the text? 283 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,680 Which, of course, stock doesn't mean. 284 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:47,680 Indeed. 285 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,080 And it's evident in a way entirely appropriate to his background and education and so on, 286 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:56,240 he is deeply under the authority of Scripture as he speaks in his own way. 287 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,680 He embodies the call of Scripture in everything he does, as far as I can see. 288 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:05,000 And Lloyd-Jones does in a different way, but I think Lloyd-Jones is more explicit that 289 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:10,200 that's what's going on, that he himself must be moved, there must be, his passions need 290 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:15,800 to be stirred by, and that he is stirred by is part of the persuasive power that such 291 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,240 a gifted preacher has. 292 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,560 And it's not simply a gift of preaching gets used. 293 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:26,360 It is that God's gift in that moment to the people is this living embodiment. 294 00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:30,360 And not just the gift of preaching, but through the particular preacher. 295 00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:31,600 And in that particular moment. 296 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:32,600 Yeah. 297 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:33,600 Yeah. 298 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:39,320 I think I can't help but think that with Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, they hear, I think 299 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:40,680 they literally hear God. 300 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,000 And yet if you read each of the three books, you always sound slightly differently. 301 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,000 I assume the best way to explain that is God is speaking through the prophet's personality. 302 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,320 It is still absolutely the fiery words of God. 303 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:59,800 And yet the person of the speaker is not put aside or shut down when God's word comes. 304 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:01,800 Exactly. 305 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:09,160 The Lord gives us embodied examples of what it is to be a follower of the Lord Jesus. 306 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,400 That is partly how we know how to follow him. 307 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,880 Paul in one Corinthians followed my example as I follow the example of Christ. 308 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,800 We have those models in front of us. 309 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:26,200 And I think that notion, which I think is there in the scriptures, I think is captured 310 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:31,880 better by Lord Jones' notion that you are... 311 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:32,880 It's in Spurgeon too. 312 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:38,120 Spurgeon has it in his own quaint Victorian language. 313 00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:40,980 He describes preaching precisely in Sinai terms. 314 00:22:40,980 --> 00:22:44,320 You come down from the mountain with your face still glowing. 315 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,040 You've been communing with the Lord in your preparation for this sermon. 316 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:53,400 And so what people are getting from you is very clearly, as it were, the overflow, the 317 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,840 glow of your communing with the Lord. 318 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:01,840 Can I just say one more thing on Stottenloy Jones? 319 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:11,600 I doubt it's a coincidence that they each end up where they do on this particular point. 320 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,640 Their own particular sociological background, I think, must play in. 321 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:24,680 Stot with someone who grew up in a culture which on the whole did not prize public displays 322 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,840 of emotion, rather look down on it. 323 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:38,280 For Lord Jones, for Wales, not from that high strata of English society, a very different 324 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:39,360 culture. 325 00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:42,880 So although they've got biblical theological things going on, I think we have to acknowledge 326 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,160 how each of us feel about this. 327 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,640 There will be deep, probably unquestioned cultural things going on. 328 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,120 Sorry, I cut you off. 329 00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:51,120 No, no, that's fine. 330 00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:53,560 So Tim, counsel me. 331 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:59,960 Every single time I preach, whether it's at church or an Oak Hill Chapel, when I sit down, 332 00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:06,960 every single time for about 60 to 90 seconds, I experience a sense of crushing embarrassment 333 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,920 and inadequacy. 334 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:14,560 And I just sit and stare at my feet, and I don't want anyone to look at me, because I 335 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:19,080 need about 60 to 90 seconds to regain my composure. 336 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,520 And usually in God's kindness, after a minute or two, I think, okay, I don't think that 337 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,240 was a total disaster. 338 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:29,840 But inasmuch as you are inserting the person or the preacher into the equation in a strong 339 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:35,780 way, there is nothing to make you feel inadequate like preaching, and nothing that will push 340 00:24:35,780 --> 00:24:42,200 someone up against the limits of their gifts like preaching. 341 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,920 Help out a fellow struggler in this. 342 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:54,000 Given what you've just said, which I'm convinced, how would that apply to that sense of, I mean, 343 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,920 apparently after Augustine died, the person who had to preach after him, Augustine retired, 344 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,840 he's sitting in the crowd, and the preacher looks at him and says, you know, a sparrow 345 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,680 chirps, the swan is silent. 346 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,680 He just feels so inadequate in comparison. 347 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:07,240 What would you say? 348 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:12,880 And then I want to ask you about application. 349 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,840 I think for many preachers, that is just the norm. 350 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,580 Experientially, that appears to be the norm. 351 00:25:19,580 --> 00:25:21,320 It's not a deficit. 352 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:29,280 I mean, if I put it strongly, I would really worry about a pastor who didn't experience 353 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,360 their own version of that. 354 00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:40,120 I've been a pastor and I still preach from time to time, and now I mainly lecture. 355 00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:42,200 Preaching is way more exhausting than lecturing. 356 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,720 I think that's the way it should be. 357 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:53,960 The fact that somebody has what a whole church may identify as a gift to preaching is not 358 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,360 that they find it easier to do than anybody else. 359 00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:04,560 I think when God gifts anything, it doesn't necessarily mean they find it easy, but there's 360 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:12,520 a willingness and an ability to put in some very hard yards in your area of gifting in 361 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:18,120 the process of which God does his work in you, which becomes your blessing to the congregation, 362 00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:20,440 his blessing, I should say, through you to the congregation. 363 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:21,440 It's that sense of labor. 364 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:27,320 It's the sense indeed of a life laid down again before God's word, under his authority, 365 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:35,960 for the sake of Jesus and his people that is part of that communication. 366 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,840 There is something that I feel, as someone who also preaches, I feel is unique about 367 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,280 the preaching act for me, but I think it's something that other people experience in 368 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:48,160 other areas when they use the gifts that God's given them in the service of other people. 369 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,960 I don't think it's simply about, God's made it easy for me. 370 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,040 I think it's God's made it possible and given me a willingness to do it. 371 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,640 That's really interesting. 372 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:04,280 There might be people who just find it so debilitating that they just couldn't function 373 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,040 during this week by week, but we all know, don't we? 374 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,400 Many pastors will just experience that Monday morning slump. 375 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:17,760 Not all of that, but part of that will be, I poured myself out to the people. 376 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,360 That actually shows the gift is operating after the Monday morning slump. 377 00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:28,720 One grace, I think we could say, in more strongly inserting the person of the preacher into 378 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,080 the equation is it gives the preacher freedom to say, I don't know, Isaiah doesn't have 379 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,160 to preach like Jeremiah or like Ezekiel. 380 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,000 I don't have to be like Lloyd-Jones. 381 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,320 There's a particular way God has made me, and I can be comfortable in that. 382 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,480 That's a really nice thought. 383 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:47,880 We do want to hear a bit more about application, don't we? 384 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,320 Maybe this is a helpful way into that. 385 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,560 I was actually having a discussion just last night with a friend who was in discussion 386 00:27:52,560 --> 00:28:01,120 with a friend about whether preachers are even irresponsible to try out application 387 00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:06,920 because, and this was how strongly the case was put, I will never understand a particular 388 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:12,320 individual well enough to say exactly how the word should connect with them. 389 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:17,120 Even if I could do that for one person, that will ignore everybody else in the congregation. 390 00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:22,240 All I can do is give broad principles from God's word and trust the Spirit to do his 391 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:28,680 work and so application never really in that particular ministry gets beyond some version 392 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:33,040 of repent, read your Bible, pray, and so on. 393 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,560 How do we feel about that? 394 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,160 Hey, that's been an easy one. 395 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:47,040 Yeah, there's an illustration that sometimes goes around which feels compelling. 396 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:53,240 That I've sometimes heard to back that up, which goes something like if you've got a 397 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:59,480 series of, if you've got a tray of glasses in front of you, tall things like each of 398 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:04,400 those representing a particular Christian and you want to fill them, you want to teach 399 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:11,000 them well and apply scripture well to them, what you don't do is kind of get a fire hose 400 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,040 and spray in a few drops of ego in that one and that one. 401 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:20,560 What you do is you take a jug and you carefully pour it into each. 402 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:26,720 I think the point of that is in the end, really effective word ministry is going to be one 403 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,720 to one, small group. 404 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:38,320 And there are massive limits to the actual pastoral effectiveness of sermons slightly 405 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:47,360 derided as fire hose attempting to fill a tray full of glasses. 406 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,680 I think that's basically wrong headed. 407 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,600 Let's go to it this way. 408 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:59,500 In front of a preacher, even if it's a small church, will be a variety of different spiritual 409 00:29:59,500 --> 00:30:03,560 states. 410 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:08,440 In relation to the message that you've just preached, there will be some who are basically 411 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,240 going on well. 412 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,680 The Lord will say to them, well, you're not yet perfect, but on the whole, in relation 413 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:21,040 to this message, I want to say, well done, good and faithful servant. 414 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:28,720 Within that, there'll be some where he wants to say, I think you know you're going well. 415 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,360 There'll be others to whom he wants to say you are going on well this, but you don't 416 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,120 know you are. 417 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:39,200 You feel constantly crushed in this area, but the Lord would say, okay, you still got 418 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:44,080 a way to go, but you are absolutely heading in the right direction. 419 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:45,760 You just don't know it. 420 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:51,280 Then you'll have some others who are not going well in relation to this message. 421 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:56,240 Now the first two categories don't especially need to hear repent, not in relation to this 422 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,240 message. 423 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:05,880 But there are folks who really do need to hear repent. 424 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,360 Some of them will arrive at church knowing they need that. 425 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,000 They carry so much guilt. 426 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,520 And in a sense, rightly, they just, what do I do with this? 427 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:18,520 How do I repent? 428 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:19,520 How would I? 429 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:25,480 There are others who trip happily to church feeling that all is well with the Lord and 430 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,680 the world and them. 431 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:34,640 And they need to be told your thinking is completely out of line. 432 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:40,080 Now if an undifferentiated message of repent that doesn't speak into those different 433 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:47,760 spiritual that is thrown out there, the first two categories going on quite well as regards 434 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:54,880 this message, what they hear is the Lord is really unhappy with you in relation to this 435 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:55,880 message. 436 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,960 That's all they hear. 437 00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:04,440 That is not what the Lord would have them hear in that moment. 438 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:13,320 So what I'm going to call undifferentiated application, pastorally undifferentiated, 439 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:18,120 doesn't distinguish different kinds of application from this one message into different spiritual 440 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:23,000 states is never pastorally neutral. 441 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:31,120 It will always pastor a number of the people in front of you very badly. 442 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,040 It's a problem. 443 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,080 Strong words. 444 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:36,080 Is that too strong, Andrew? 445 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:44,200 Well, no, I don't think it is because you often hear people who have over years of involvement 446 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:49,640 in a particular church, let's say under a particular ministry or team ministry, they 447 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:56,960 have formed a view of the culture of the church, part of which is the character of the preaching, 448 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,240 the kind of message that they hear. 449 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:11,120 Sometimes, I'm sure, sometimes there is a kind of deafness or unwillingness. 450 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:18,560 But I think what often people are doing is saying perhaps because the application is 451 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,840 undifferentiated is that they feel as if they're always being spoken to in a particular 452 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:30,400 way and they feel that actually almost every week and whatever their own personal spiritual 453 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,840 journey is, they're hearing something which seems to be from the Lord of a similar kind 454 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:34,840 of way. 455 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:36,960 And in the end, I think there's an instinct in which says, I'm not sure this is all from 456 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:37,960 the Lord. 457 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,120 I wonder if I want to try a different church. 458 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:47,080 I once had Sinclair Ferguson in a recorded interview, say from his Lessons He's Learned 459 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,640 from Pastoral Ministry. 460 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:57,720 The people in the church family will always see Jesus shaped kind of around you, the pastor. 461 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,240 And he said that ought to be incredibly frightening. 462 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,840 But what you can't do is deny that it's going to happen. 463 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:06,840 It will. 464 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:07,840 Yeah. 465 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:16,120 So if what people constantly hear is, here are all the ways you're failing, repent, they're 466 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:22,040 going to come to see God in a certain way, a God who is always on their case, who basically 467 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,400 wants to say to them, pull your socks up. 468 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,680 That's all I really have to say. 469 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:31,520 So this kind of thing you're talking about with your friends, I think what I want to 470 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:39,800 say is you, pastoring in the pulpit is unavoidable. 471 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,520 So you might as well attempt to do it well. 472 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:48,720 And identify and thinking about categories of people, the kinds of the tender conscience, 473 00:34:48,720 --> 00:34:56,200 the seared conscience, the believer, the unbeliever, those kinds of categories. 474 00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:01,320 Because someone could say, well, of course it's possible to preach the same message every 475 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:02,520 week. 476 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:09,040 But you could be guided by scripture, by the tone of the passage, by the stage of salvation 477 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:10,720 history, the genre. 478 00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:17,200 There could be huge variety from week to week, but still no differentiation in the week. 479 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:23,160 So why would you still, well, perhaps you've already said, but say again, how would you 480 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:33,000 say to a preacher who is actually broadly preaching in a wide variety of ways and modes 481 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,160 from week to week as they move through scripture, why is it still worth them thinking about? 482 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:42,520 Yes, but there are different people in front of you each time. 483 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,200 Because in preaching you are pastoring. 484 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:54,240 You are not just a Bible teacher who goes around dispensing information about the content 485 00:35:54,240 --> 00:35:59,780 of the passage and its textual aim as far as you can discern that. 486 00:35:59,780 --> 00:36:04,680 You have been appointed by the chief shepherd to be an under shepherd to these particular 487 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,560 people at this particular point in time. 488 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,240 You are a pastor to them. 489 00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:19,960 He has given you the task of diagnosing what their particular spiritual ills are, discerning 490 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:28,560 what particular pressures they come under culturally, temperamentally, to walk away 491 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:34,520 from the Lord, to discern the particular objections to this biblical truth that would come to 492 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:43,160 their minds given the kinds of people they are, to discern how obedience to this particular 493 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:49,520 command if it's a command in the text, to discern the particular shape that will take 494 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:59,080 given who they are, demographically, sociologically, ethnically, economically, educationally. 495 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:06,960 It is our task as pastors to help people with those things. 496 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,440 And the pulpit is not the only place. 497 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,520 But I think that must be where it comes out. 498 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:16,160 Now, I suspect just about every pastor is doing that one to one. 499 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:23,400 If a pastor says, I do that one to one, I just don't do it in the pulpit because I think 500 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:29,720 that's, it just doesn't work because I can't address everybody. 501 00:37:29,720 --> 00:37:35,800 I think the key objection I hear on this, and I feel it, is, but I can't, I won't address 502 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,800 everybody in a sermon unless I take like four hours to apply and I'll probably still then 503 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,760 miss some people out. 504 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:52,440 I think what I want to say to that is, if in a particular sermon you say, you know, 505 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,600 I'm only, we're coming to the application, I'm only going to speak to one particular 506 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:56,600 kind of person here. 507 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,040 I'll be really explicit about that. 508 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:00,840 It's a person who spiritually is in this kind of state. 509 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:02,360 Let me describe it to you. 510 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:03,360 See if you feel this is you. 511 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,400 And if it is, I'm speaking right into it. 512 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,520 What am I saying to all those who are not like that? 513 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:15,800 Well, in that particular sermon, I am allowing them to overhear how the Lord would pass to 514 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,720 someone who is not like them. 515 00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:20,720 Well, there's an application. 516 00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:23,640 There's not no application for them. 517 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:29,800 For them, the application, and you might make this explicit, is, so for the person sitting 518 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:34,120 next to you in church who feels like this spiritually, here is how you could pass to 519 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:35,120 them. 520 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,120 I love that thought. 521 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:42,320 When Ephesians 4 talks about the role of the pastor teacher being to equip the saints for 522 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:47,120 the work of ministry, there is a danger in this undifferentiated preaching that what 523 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:48,120 you're teaching people is. 524 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,120 If you ever get to have a spiritual conversation with somebody, this is what you say to them. 525 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,840 And it doesn't matter what stage of life they're in. 526 00:38:53,840 --> 00:39:01,200 All you have to do is think about a scripture which you heard and you just pass it on. 527 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:06,320 Whereas the rehearsing of the idea that people are in different states is, of course, exactly 528 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,840 what people need to know in order to have a good conversation with somebody. 529 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,600 Because the first thing they need to know is, how are you doing? 530 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:12,600 How are you really doing? 531 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,600 How's your heart this week? 532 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,200 I think I know what you will say to this. 533 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,600 Can I ask a question from the opposite direction about over-application? 534 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:21,640 I think I know what you'll say. 535 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,600 But let's say one of your students is convinced about the importance of the person of the 536 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,960 preacher through whom God speaks on the basis of God's Word. 537 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,440 They go out into ministry and you hear back from one of their elders and they say, a lot 538 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,820 of good things are going on with your student, Tim. 539 00:39:36,820 --> 00:39:43,120 They will stand up with their Bibles open and really wonderfully, with their face aglow, 540 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,240 as it were, talk about the text. 541 00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:49,640 But when they come to apply it, it's like they shut the Bible and they are so aware 542 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:59,240 of their amazing role that God has given them that they presume to apply and the Bible is 543 00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:00,600 shut. 544 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:05,720 What would you say to a student who had made that perhaps understandable mistake? 545 00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:14,480 Oh, I think, assuming I have a good relationship with them and have the right to speak openly, 546 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:20,280 I'd want to say some fairly strong words of warning that they are potentially planting 547 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:27,640 the seeds of some major, major problems for themselves and for those they serve. 548 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:28,840 We all know what those problems are. 549 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:36,760 The problems are of laying down my law, not the Lord's law. 550 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:46,320 I think helpful here is a distinction between what is commanded in scripture and what is 551 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,320 wisdom. 552 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,280 As in, what is this thing? 553 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:59,160 If I didn't do this, am I in flat out obedience to the Lord in his word or am I being potentially 554 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:05,520 foolish but that remains to be seen? 555 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:11,760 So I hope I think you will develop on this and I'll get better at describing this. 556 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:23,680 I think it can be helpful to distinguish between you must applications and you might. 557 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,840 If a preacher starts to confuse those, then? 558 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,440 That is often when the problems come. 559 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,040 That's when it becomes overbearing. 560 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:37,320 That's when it becomes an abuse of pastoral authority. 561 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:42,080 This will apply, anybody engaged in pastoral ministry is wrestling with this all the time, 562 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:43,400 aren't they? 563 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:48,920 If you've got someone and they are a believer and they struggle with alcoholism, I think 564 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:55,640 from the scriptures we can say, the Lord says you must not get drunk. 565 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,200 That's pretty straightforward. 566 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:04,520 But if there's a situation that they sometimes find themselves in, I don't know, going out 567 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:10,880 with colleagues after work, let's say, and they find that sometimes to be a particular 568 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:17,080 temptation to drink too much that they sometimes fall into. 569 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:21,320 Do I have the Lord's authority to say to them, and they describe that to me quite openly, 570 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:28,000 do I have the Lord's authority to say to them, thus sayeth the Lord, thou shalt not go out 571 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,360 with your colleagues after work? 572 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:30,360 Do I have that authority? 573 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,720 No, you are never allowed to do that. 574 00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:33,720 No. 575 00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:43,520 I think I can say, might it not be wise for you not to do that or to think about doing 576 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:47,520 it in a different way? 577 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,840 This could entirely come out in the pulpit. 578 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:56,240 If my text is don't get drunk on wine, don't get drunk on wine. 579 00:42:56,240 --> 00:43:02,960 And while we're about it, don't get drunk on vodka or any other form of alcohol. 580 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:04,640 But now let's dig into this. 581 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:09,200 If this is a problem to you, what are wise ways of living? 582 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:15,240 So I think that moving between, I know I'm using these complex categories slightly loosely 583 00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:24,040 here, but law and wisdom within pastoral ministry and thinking about that in the pulpit and 584 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:30,240 being very, very clear about that, I think can help with these things. 585 00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:33,280 One final question for me. 586 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:39,480 Let's say a listener is engaged in regular preaching and feels and is aware of as an 587 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:46,960 encourage by the immense privilege that God gives to under shepherds, but doesn't sense 588 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,360 that God has been speaking through them. 589 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,240 And let's say for the sake of argument, there are some years, it's not just one or two 590 00:43:53,240 --> 00:44:02,320 sermons, but for some years they are sensing that their preaching does not match this noble, 591 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,960 amazing thing that the New Testament describes. 592 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,600 What would you say to a pastor who's perhaps thinking that? 593 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:12,120 I mean, what a wonderful question. 594 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:18,080 I think I want to be careful on that because each individual situation that might come 595 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:24,680 under that is going to have its specifics to it that would want to pastor into the specifics. 596 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:25,680 Of course. 597 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:31,160 So I want to be careful about giving a kind of general one size fits all answer to that 598 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:35,440 question. 599 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:43,640 I think one thing we can, I mean, let's assume this person as it were, by any objective measure 600 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:48,840 listened to by reliable people would be judged to have the gift of preaching. 601 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:50,680 They are apt to preach. 602 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,200 They're a faithful pastor. 603 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,200 Their gifts may not apparently be as obvious as others. 604 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:57,200 They may not write books. 605 00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,920 They may not get invited to speak at conferences. 606 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,840 Those are things that in pastoral ministry, I think the Lord doesn't care too much about. 607 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:05,920 He's very good at working through the average. 608 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:13,760 So let's say it's a faithful pastor that they have the gifts may not be in spades, but they 609 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,760 have the gifts. 610 00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,320 It is as to labor, isn't it? 611 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,440 And the Lord produces the fruit. 612 00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:26,080 The word is always going out in power. 613 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,620 The word, I mean, back to Stott and Lloyd Jones, in a sense, those two camps have kind 614 00:45:30,620 --> 00:45:33,120 of debated this issue a little bit. 615 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:37,000 Stott with his notion, sorry, Lloyd Jones, at one point in preaching and preachers, he 616 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:41,600 actually says, looking back on my whole preaching career, I'm not sure I've ever once really 617 00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:42,600 preached. 618 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:47,440 At which point you go, well, mate, if that's how you feel, what hope for the rest of us? 619 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:48,440 Then who has? 620 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:56,160 And I think that's him speaking from his lifelong longing to see the revival come about in this 621 00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:57,160 country. 622 00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,160 And if the Lord could use him, how wonderful. 623 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:04,680 And I think he was wanting to say, I haven't seen revival through my ministry. 624 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:09,120 And that was my lifelong heart's desire. 625 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:16,000 A wonderful desire, I think it's a poor way of expressing it, though, if I'm honest. 626 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:17,000 Of course you preached. 627 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,600 You preached every time. 628 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:25,440 You held out the Jesus of the Scriptures from the Scriptures, and you urged people to come 629 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:26,440 to him. 630 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:27,760 That's preaching. 631 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:29,800 And as you preached, God spoke. 632 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:30,800 God spoke. 633 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:36,520 And the Spirit was always accompanying that word, not always in the way you would have 634 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,680 wanted him to. 635 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:46,240 At times he was air defying, quietly, not spectacularly, a tiny little bit. 636 00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:51,280 So someone would be faithful for another week and not fall away. 637 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:56,000 In other people in the same room, he was hardening. 638 00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:00,880 And the Spirit is always doing one of those two things. 639 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:02,840 One question from me. 640 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:10,880 Let's say there is a preacher who is moved to try again, to gain some ground in the business 641 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:11,880 of application. 642 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:16,840 They want to make a little progress, keep going down this road. 643 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,640 What do you say to preachers to help them? 644 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:20,640 It's another week. 645 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:22,760 It's the same old thing. 646 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:30,520 How are they going to face the task with hope and a practical thought or two? 647 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:32,480 A practical thought or two? 648 00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,880 Pray, pray, pray, pray, pray again. 649 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:37,360 I so easily forget that. 650 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:38,360 Here we go. 651 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,360 I've got a sermon to crank out. 652 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,360 I've got a study of the passage. 653 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:46,680 I've got to read a few decent commentaries. 654 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:54,440 I have tried over the years to grow, to be prayerful at each point in preparation. 655 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:59,520 Not just a kind of perfunctory prayer at the beginning, but I'm studying the passage and 656 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:01,440 I see something wonderful. 657 00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:06,400 Try and pause to pray, wrestling with some naughty verse, hoping the commentaries will 658 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,120 all give me the answer and eight commentaries, 10 different views. 659 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:10,120 This is no help. 660 00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:11,120 Pray. 661 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:14,120 I need an illustration. 662 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:15,500 Pray. 663 00:48:15,500 --> 00:48:19,200 I can't speak into every spiritual state, Lord, which one, which one? 664 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:26,960 And I don't have hours to suicide this because I have other responsibilities. 665 00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:32,600 I know that's not enormously practical, but yeah, pray. 666 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:39,080 In terms of if someone wanted to think more about application into different spiritual 667 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:44,920 states, the fairly straightforward book I've been most helped on by this is by a man called 668 00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:51,360 Murray Capil, C-A-P-I-L-L, Murray Capil, called The Heart is the Target. 669 00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:56,840 He's particularly drawing on Puritan, preaching that he studied quite extensively and they 670 00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,720 were the absolute masters of this. 671 00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:06,480 I mean, kind of to excess from our perspective, maybe, but he distills it very beautifully 672 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:13,120 at the end of his book into a little four grid thing, which is in related, I've actually 673 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:17,280 kind of alluded to this already in relation to this message, he says think of four spiritual 674 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,080 categories. 675 00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:23,760 Going well, know it, don't know it. 676 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,400 Not going well, know it, don't know it. 677 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:33,640 And I've just found that hugely helpful in trying to learn to think through application 678 00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:34,640 in these ways. 679 00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,060 That's a good note to end on. 680 00:49:38,060 --> 00:49:40,080 Thank you so much for joining us, Tim. 681 00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:44,440 It's lovely to see your excitement and the thought that you put into this. 682 00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,480 And thank you, everyone watching us. 683 00:49:46,480 --> 00:50:10,680 We're very glad you've been here.