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Hi everyone and welcome to the Oak Hill podcast, Deep Roots, Conversations about Theology and

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Ministry. Thank you so much for joining us. My name is Eric and I teach Old Testament here at Oak Hill

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and I'm joined by my friends Matt and Natalie. Great to be here. I am Matt Bingham. I teach

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Church History and Systematic Theology at Oak Hill College. And yes, Natalie, Natalie Brand.

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Thank you for being with us here today. Thank you. It's privilege. Natalie, you've been with us this

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past year as a visiting lecturer and you've been teaching some systematic theology, teaching on

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reading Calvin's Institutes. And we're really pleased that you can do that for us. Thank you.

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By way of introduction, maybe you could just tell us a little bit about where's your church home and

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who is with you in the family and what do you do when you're not teaching doctrine in Calvin?

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Yeah, thank you. Well, the teaching doctrine in Calvin is more of a hobby. I double in it.

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Yeah, full-time mother at home, long school runs. We live kind of right in the middle of England.

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Literally, there's a road around the corner called Heart of England Way, not far from where Henry

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the Seventh was crowned. So there's some good history there, Battle of Fosworth. Yeah, so we're

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living in the Midlands due to my husband's ministry, but we are both from the South with

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Southerners. And that's important, even on a small island. Yeah, three girls, a dog, she was a COVID

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lockdown by, that's been sanctifying. And yeah, just writing and teaching at different places,

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London Seminary, Flourish Course, but mostly at home with the children.

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Can you tell us just a little bit about your husband's ministry?

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Yeah, so Tom is the Ministry Director of the EFCC, Evangelical Fellowship of Congregational

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Churches. It sounds very steer. It basically is the Evangelical lot that didn't want to join the

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URC, the Liberals in the 60s. So they kind of created this fellowship for Orthodoxy.

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And it's about 120 odd churches in England, Wales and all the moment.

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Okay, an important ministry. Yeah, he's pastoring pastors and placing pastors in churches. Some

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of the churches haven't had pastors for 30 odd years. So he's encouraging churches to see that

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church leadership pastors, teachers, they're a gift from the Lord, Ephesians 4, 11,

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and to encourage them to get men in the pulpit. So he's doing a great work. So we're encouraging.

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That's wonderful. That's wonderful. So tell us about the different places you studied in your

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educational journey and what piqued your interest in theology and... Yeah, so I became a Christian,

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well I was brought up in a Christian home, but I think it was the turn of the millennium, literally,

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possibly even that night, where I just thought I've had enough of the world. And the Lord,

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by his spirit, provoked in me a desire just to be in the Word, which I hadn't really had.

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For a long time I was living kind of like the prodigal son and the pigs, but instead it was a

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grotty flat in Bournemouth and the Word. And yeah, I just couldn't get enough, turned up that I ended

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up going back to my parents and yeah, eating up the Word. And it was about a period of about

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six months where the Lord called me to himself. And I just wanted to serve him after that. And so

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ended up going to what is now a union school of theology and doing their BA, kind of in the desire

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to do some kind of youth work, because that is kind of I'd been saved in that kind of way.

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But just never left, did the BA, did the MA, did the PhD. And yeah, the Lord has been really good,

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favoured me in many ways as I've sought to write. It wasn't necessarily something I sought to do,

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but Dr. D, who was the principal back then, Dr. Ero Davis, he told me that I needed to

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stay and do a PhD and he even wrote the proposal for me. So I just did what he told me to do and I

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just stayed and did that. And he didn't give you many options if he knew that I loved the doctrine

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of union with Christ. And I came across it in a very kind of every day kind of way. I was reading

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a tiny book called Bites I Theology by Peter Jeffrey. It had a woman with with in front of

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a computer, twoing her glasses on the front cover, I think is an old EP book. And I just was in the

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first year and hadn't really heard of systematic theology. And it's just a really condensed

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systematic like it's one page per doctrine. And when I came across union with Christ, I just felt

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like I had goosebumps. And that was it. And so later on, Dr. D wrote the proposal for me to do

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something on union with Christ, because he knew that I loved it. And yeah, that's where it's

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so for those who don't know Dr. D's full name is Dr. Earl Davis. Okay, thank you. Wonderful.

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Yeah. Wow. So union with Christ, you're exposed to this doctrine in a different way, a deeper way

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while studying. And you say, I'm going to do a PhD on it now. How do you kind of narrow the field?

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And what are some of the actually, maybe before we get into that, maybe just for all of us sake,

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give us a kind of quick definition of union with Christ. I mean, we all have a feel for that maybe,

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but how would you, how would you summarize it? Yeah. So obviously, Christ talks a lot in the

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Gospel of John of being one with the Father. And how he in his high priestly prayer, for example,

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he prays that the people will be one, like you are that I am one with you. And there's the vine

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and the branches and also in John 17. So Christ speaks of union with Christ very heavily in

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in John's Gospel. But Paul is obsessed with this formula of being in Christ, I mean, everything

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is about being in Christ. And so the doctrine is this, it really is the Gospel. I mean,

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Horton says it's the hub of the gospel is the hub of everything there in the middle as union

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with Christ and and all of salvation cannot be applied to the believer unless we are in union

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with him. And Calvin said, didn't he that famous quote that if we're outside of him, we have nothing,

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we're apart from him, then we have nothing. So yeah, it's basically the truth that

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if Jesus is our savior and our redeemer, and for his cross to mean anything for us in our

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lives in the 21st century, in a different continent, in a different time, or whatever, if his work and

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his person has to be applied to us in order for us to be crucified with him, resurrected with him,

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then the Holy Spirit has to apply him, his person to us and his work to us. So,

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and Luther said, the faith was the wedding ring, and the Holy Spirit takes the faith takes the

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believer takes Christ and refuses them together. So it's that spiritual marriage between Christ

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and the church. And it isn't just the means of how we're saved. It is our Christian life.

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It's the center of salvation, but it's also the center of Christian living as well. It's everything.

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Yeah, I already have quite many questions coming to mind. But before we get to all my questions,

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could you just tell us your PhD? What was the particular angle you took? How did you approach

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the question? What did you work on? I don't know if you find this, but it's a bit fuzzy, isn't it?

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After a while, it was quite a while ago. So it was basically what I was doing is I was,

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this was back in the day when we weren't talking about union with Christ. You're like, this was

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10, 15 years ago when union with Christ now has so much more on our radar.

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Radar, praise God. But back then we weren't talking about it. We weren't talking about

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Calvin's corporate spirituality. So what I sought to do was talk about reform spirituality,

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see the depth, the depth there of kind of experiential liveliness, like how we were being

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characterized to be quite cerebral. Bring us back to a corporate lively experimental

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spirituality based on union with Christ. But I did that from the kind of the unique angle was that

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it was a woman scholar. And so I did it bringing in kind of reformed women. What does it mean to

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be have a Calvinistic corporate biblical, authentic spirituality anchored in union with Christ,

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but to be pastorally aware of women, how we can use women if we're enjoying shared union

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as church siblings, if we're enjoying shared union, if we co-heirs with Christ, what does it mean

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then to have a corporate spirituality or even church practice that is complementarian? How can

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we use women in a way and even pastor women in a way that is centered upon union with Christ?

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So yeah, it was multi-busted as all these things are. But basically union with Christ and reform

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spirituality, looking particularly at reformed women. And kind of a, well back then it was kind

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of a feminine, we've moved in the last 10, 15 years on gender language so much. It sounds awkward

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now, but for example, I would look at Sarah Edwards and how she would express herself and her

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spirituality from a kind of bridal state. And this idea of union with Christ, Christ being our spouse.

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Faith Kirk is also another one who does that in her hymns and in her poems that she's taken from

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Samuel Rutherford, she says, wrapped up with Christ, wrapped up in Christ by one desire. So

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it was kind of trying to stir an enjoyment of Christ and union with Christ in the believer.

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That's really interesting. Backing up a bit toward the front that you mentioned, you know,

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this is, you said something like, this is one we weren't talking about union as much. It wasn't

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emphasized. When you say we, are you talking about sort of evangelicals generally, evangelical

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theologians, pastors from pulpits, reform circles, all of Christendom, who are the we,

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do you think that was maybe not giving this doctrine the emphasis that?

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Yeah, I think all of that, like that certainly in reform scholarly works were just coming out

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as I was researching. So it was kind of funny because I'd written this proposal and thought,

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yeah, this will be great. And then you see people writing books that you're writing and you're like,

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oh no, oh my God. But also it was really encouraging because obviously people are having the same

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conversation or having the same patterns that we needed to recentralize union with Christ.

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And I think a lot of that has come out that we've seen a renewal in reform theology over the 10,

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the last 10 years or so. Praise God. And it's perhaps come out of the new cavernist movement

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from the States. But yeah, people are interested in doctrine. And now it's great. People used to

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say to me 10 years ago, what do you mean union with Christ? And now everyone's using that.

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And I really know, at least a basic understanding of what that is. So,

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so yeah, I think Matthew, in a way, all of those things, we've in the renewal of reformed

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doctrine and people's thirst, like the men, women in the pulpit are now interested and thirsty and

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we're seeing, you know, catechisms coming out for children. And this is just very encouraging.

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So yeah, I think, I think all of that does answer the question. You mentioned with regard to your

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dissertation, there are a lot of different threads there, but corporate spirituality,

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not just an individual union with Christ, but expressed and experienced corporately,

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is that a fair way to say it? And even in church practice, what might a church practice differently

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if they recover really robust theology of union with Christ, not just something we all go off and

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do individually, but in terms of the corporate angle, how might church life look different?

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I think treasuring, prizing the sacraments is really key, because I think in baptism and in

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the Lord's Supper, that is when we literally feast and enjoy and cherish and revel even in our union

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with Christ, but our corporate union with Christ, even in baptism, whether you're baptistic or

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Peter Baptist and Lord's Supper, all those things are corporate in nature. And it's like the corporate

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body is expressing and celebrating in shared union. So let them write some of this little book on the

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Lord's Supper. It's so true that many of us tag on the Lord's Supper at the end, and certainly as a

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woman, you know, you're like, oh no, the chicken's in the oven, it's burning, like how long it's going

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to take. In our weakness, we have, we get impatient. As a kid, I would be like, oh no, it's the boring

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bit. And even as a kid, I would watch everyone as they gave out the bread and the wine at the end

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of the service, everybody would bow their heads and kind of go into a bubble. And it was very

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individualistic kind of spirituality, whereas, you know, I think the New Testament model is

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breaking a bread together as a corporate expression, as a corporate enjoyment. Obviously, we have this

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idea of this agape feast. So I think looking at the body, looking at the diversity in the body,

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looking at one another, celebrating together. So it was kind of pushing some of those ideas

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of all these practices of individual enjoyment to something more corporate, where the body is

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celebrating together the head, the Christ the head. And it's a richer experience for everyone.

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And bringing everyone together in that. Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating when you talk about it and

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talk about all the different dimensions of Christian life and redemption that are connected to union.

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And I think at one point you said, in a sense, it's just, it is the gospel, you know, Paul's

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constantly in Christ, those who were in Christ, etc. So given the centrality of the doctrine,

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and the sense that it has historically, perhaps in some of our own evangelical circles, been a

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neglected doctrine, relatively, maybe underplayed under, and says, how do you, why might that happen?

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Why might we overlook something that once you sort of see it, I think I remember reading someone's

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comment was that, you know, it's the kind of thing where, yes, you can go to certain proof texts and

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see it. You mentioned, you know, Text in John's Gospel, for example. But once you notice this theme,

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it jumps off the page all over the place. So given that, I think that's right. Why do you think

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what might be some factors that would cause folks to miss it or to underplay it or to not think

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about it or maybe get caught up in something else or any thoughts on how does that work out?

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Yeah, it's a really good question. I'm going to ask you a question back in a minute, but my first

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thought was like, I don't know how to best answer that, but that we very quickly move

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biblically from union with Christ participation in Christ. And I wonder whether different views,

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perhaps from other traditions have confused that maybe theosis from like more orthodox views or

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Tell us what theosis means for the ordinary listeners.

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Well, obviously, this idea of participating in God, so through crisis, the way the truth in the

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life. So but obviously, other traditions, more Eastern traditions push it further.

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And some orthodox and many orthodox do let them Athanasias, many talk about us participating

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in God. And this idea of what theologians call dayification, the believer. So I don't know,

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that was just a guess that maybe we confuse that how how much do we participate in God. And I don't

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know, that was just a thought that maybe that's where people don't know whether the orthodox and

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they're kind of more mystical. I don't know what your thoughts, Matthew, you help me out here.

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Yeah, I mean, I would, I don't know, I think there's one one thing that might be in play,

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you know, just historically is that amongst some some, you know, sort of mainstream New

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Testament scholarship has sometimes I think historically played union with Christ at odds,

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maybe with with justification by faith alone. You know, so you think someone like Albert Schweitzer

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early 20th century talks about, you know, Paul's doctrine of justification is sort of a subsidiary

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crater, I think is the language he uses, you know, and the main thing is union and the synthesis on

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renovative categories and participatory categories, and and sort of moving away from the sort of

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forensic declaration of forgiveness and imputed righteousness, you know, that is as certain

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aspects of New Testament scholarship have kind of wanted to move away from that,

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and emphasize these renovative participatory categories like union. I wonder if sometimes

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evangelicals hearing that sort of in a sense, by that reading in a sense of well, I have to pick

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one or the other I can emphasize this one, but it's a zero sum game. And to the extent that I

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emphasize union, it means I'm not a justification by faith alone person. And of course, that's not

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that's not true at all. And I mean, you talk about Calvin, and this is double grace, that union as a

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context in which we enjoy all the benefits that Christ offers us. But yeah, I do wonder about

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that. And maybe just I mean, what does that well, that that's interesting, because about 10 or 15

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years ago, I started to sort of wake up to the doctrine of union with Christ or read Robert

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Lethams book and others. And what drove me toward it was trying to make sense better sense out of

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justification by faith, and saying, how does God apply Christ's righteousness to me?

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And trying to get away from a sort of distance, sort of he just kind of throws it at me or just

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says something, and then that's the end. But but to say that God unites me to his son by faith,

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so that my sin is his and his righteousness is mine. I found it very helpful to plug in the

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unite verb to make sense out of how the righteousness of a man who lived 2000 years ago and 1000 miles

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away is actually mine in God's sight. I had to use the category of union to make sense out of that.

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So I sort of came to it from it was precisely because I couldn't see any distinction between

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justification and union, that union became more of a real category, much in contrast to Schweitzer,

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which I know you would agree with. But I guess I came at it from a slightly different angle. Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, that seems and I think I think just in a sense, I think because it's such a pervasive

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concept in the way the New Testament talks about redemption applied, you know, and maybe it can

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almost get get lost in the mix, you know, it's submerged, but it's everywhere in the New Testament,

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right? And there's multiple kinds of as you already said, multiple kinds of language of,

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you know, the son being in the father and Paul's language and John's language of remaining and

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things like that are being wrapped up in Christ or clothes and there's multiple ways you can express

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it. So if I read the New Testament for a number of years without a healthy, you know, live doctrine

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of union, I kind of just didn't see the language. But once other theologians help me, I started

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to say, Well, it really is everywhere. And maybe that's another reason why it can be easy to miss.

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Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even if you look at the redemptive arc of creation for redemption,

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consummation, you know, why does he why does he even save us to make a people for himself?

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And how does he do that? But to bring us into union. So it really is the way he does,

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he the way he saves us, the way he saves us through Christ, but the way it is our future,

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it is our heavenly truth that is where we're headed for eternity that will be

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enjoying union with the Holy Trinity, like Gregorio Nassiaz, this is my Trinity. The only

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reason we can call the Holy Trinity that God had my Trinity is because of union with Christ.

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That's what it means that he is the way the truth in the life. And that's our eternity.

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You know, and so to say it really is the center, even that is an under under. Yeah.

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And part of the reason this is exciting to me is that I think union with Christ in the New

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Testament in a way, no other religion and no other philosophy is able to it speaks of the

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deepest desire of the human heart that at some level, even if we're not able to articulate it,

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we know we are incomplete in ourselves. We want something to find ourselves then and be united

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to and and the doctrine of union of Christ is the best, fullest, most satisfied, most

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gloriously unspeakably glorious answer to that. But tell me if you both would agree, it seems to me

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there are secular versions of union that try to meet that need and always fail.

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As I see people in North America and in Britain, there are bigger

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celebrities or sports teams or politicians or movements that they are trying to find themselves

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in in a way that redeems their own existence, you know, but my life is better. So whatever is

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lacking in me is covered over because I'm a member of this political party or this movement or my

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sports team one. It's amazing how people, I know sports analogies are overused, but when your

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sports team loses, like you feel almost a sense of shame because you are, I mean, it doesn't matter

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at all. But but there is something feels like it does, but it feels like it does because you are,

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you are in some way in a relationship with that team and their victory is your victory,

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their loss is your loss in some sense. It's that seems like a fated twisted,

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unsatisfying version of union. What am I completely off base, as I say this sort?

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No, yeah, yeah. And I think I think so that is a desire for community and belonging and identity.

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And we find that in shared union with our brothers and sisters in Christ, we find that in the church

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and not the church as in what we see on Sunday morning when we rock up, but the invisible church,

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the the elect through history all the way to eternity in heaven. And so, yeah, I think that

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desire is is our God given need for brothers and sisters in Christ and that we that the gospel

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and Christianity is a corporate reality. You know, this is not about individuals. This is

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a corporate reality. The New Testament is a corporate document. Well, the whole of the

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I should have got an old testament scholar here. So I should be careful when I say the whole

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by amen, preach it, preach it. And so, yeah, so isn't that desire for teams, whether it's sports or,

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you know, crafts or whatever people find and that their people, they find their people is that

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that's truly expressed and even eternally expressed in the invisible church.

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Hmm. And even the kind of relationships we have with these figures or even cosplaying

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where people go to, you know, you better explain that. I don't know what that is.

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So, oh, okay, for once, I'm the one who knows more about pop culture. This is a very strange

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experience for me. But people will go, I think they call them comms, that that's short for something

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I can't remember what it is, but they will dress up as their favorite video game character or

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character from a movie or Lord of the Rings or Star Wars or whatever. Sometimes in very elaborate

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costumes and, you know, they have contests and they can recognize each other. And it's all

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sort of fun. And I don't think it's bad in and of itself. And yet there's something about my guess,

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I've never done that myself, but my guess is that is satisfying for the people who do that because

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it completes their existence in some way. There's something that they're lacking that is given them

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when they are in a way vicariously united with this other character, even if it's a fictional

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character. It seems to me like that's a kind of parody of union or at least speaks to the same

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need in a way that redeems their existence. That may be too abstract. I don't know. I suspect that we

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see the desire for union and the corporate elements of it and the mechanics of it, the kind

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of relationship you have with something bigger than yourself that you find yourself in that redeems

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your I expect we human beings are enacting those dynamics all the time, whether in un-christian

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ways or in the real way and with union with your divine husband. I wonder, is it so the common

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commonality that we find, like Lewis said about the whole Me Too thing, friendship is based on

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Me Too. So I know that you're a big Tolkien fan, Me Too. And do you just find that if you meet

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somebody who loves Tolkien, you just want to be friends with them? And if they get why it's so good,

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then you just, but that's just a shadow of when you meet a fellow sibling in Christ and you see

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Christ in them and you see the love and their eyes are literally burning for love for Christ.

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And you're like, Me Too, and you're suddenly the most I want to be your friend. And so maybe it is

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all those belongings and all that camaraderie is actually just about belonging to Christ and seeing

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other people who also belong to Christ. Yeah. It's interesting how a theme in this

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conversation, union with Christ is always corporate. It always involves relationships with other human

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beings. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Natalie, you've mentioned different authors and theologians

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or in this, I mentioned some church fathers like Grigory of Naziansus came up and Calvin. Who might

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be some figures either throughout Christian history or even contemporary figures who you've found have

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written in a really helpful, interesting way on this theme, explored this theme.

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The theme of union with Christ. Calvin is the most obvious one and Luther's

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little book on the freedom of a Christian is really great.

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I think John Murray's Redemption Accomplished and Applied is probably the book that is my

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go to. I think that's a great book. I'm constantly recommending that book. Yeah. Me too. Lots of

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women come and say, I want to do theology. Where do I start? And I say John Murray.

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So yeah, that's just a gem. Like actually, yeah. Yeah. So these are, yeah, I mean,

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everybody's talking about it now. So it's great because you can, you know, people are writing

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about it and I'm not, I don't even know who they are. But I think the way it pervades Calvin's thought

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and the way he, everything hangs on it and Calvin's got that from Paul. So yeah.

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Yeah. The Murray book, I think is really helpful because it's focused on, you know, very much

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ordo salutis, ordo salvation, categories, justification, sanctification, glorification.

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And then the union chapter, as I recall, Kurt Miffenbrunn, I think he puts it at the,

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toward the back, right? And then he kind of says, look, because this actually isn't an element in

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the ordo salutis. This is actually the matrix in which the whole thing plays out. And it's,

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it's really fascinating. It is. And I like the way he, the first part of the book is the atonement.

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So what happens? Yeah. Redemption accomplished. Right. And now how do we apply it? Yeah.

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Yeah. And he's such a clear writer I find in that book. Is that book you would recommend to people

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who you, I think you did say this, if I haven't read a lot of theology, systematics, but I'm

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interested in kind of getting into this, would that be a good place to start? Absolutely. Absolutely.

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John Murray. Yeah. And they, is it Banas? I mean, it's just on a new edition that's,

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that's pretty beautiful. Yeah, I don't know if I have the old, really old paperback that I don't

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think even have some front cover, but there are some nice new editions of that book. Yeah.

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Natalie, as we come to close, could you maybe tell us one thing you've enjoyed about teaching

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Eddokill this year? Yeah. And maybe you could tell us one way we could be, we, and people listening

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could be praying for you and for your family. Oh, that's kind. Yeah. Eddokill has been such a

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blast. I'm so grateful to have been asked to come teach. I found the students just, we, we just had

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such a great time. It was fun. Our brains ached. We were led to worship. It was a great time. I

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really felt quite emotional. In my last lecture, we took a photo of one of the groups I've done

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systematics with. And because I really felt we journeyed like together through this stuff. And,

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and yeah, there were times where it was just so rewarding, like we're talking about the incarnation

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and the Holy Spirit overshadowing the womb of Mary. And there were people in the, in the group

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who are like, I've never really comprehended just how miraculous that is that, and, and, and they

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were just seeing the incarnation and just a whole other way. So that has been so rewarding.

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And seeing people's excitement for reading, say, Athanasius on the incarnation or, or, or whatever

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it may be, getting into the Heidelberg and the pastoral language and the warmth and, and bavink.

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I mean, love bavink. So it's been incredibly rewarding. I've learned, I think just as much

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as they have. We've had some really great discussions. So yeah, I think the classroom

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time is just has been, it's really precious. Yeah, I think we, when we're there, we're doing

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theology, we're not just learning it, we're, we're doing it ourselves and we're understanding

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something more, pushing harder into the mysteries and the wonder that is our God.

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Wonderful. And praying for us. Yeah, I, I think praying for the churches in the UK, as Tom

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spends time, there are lots of the churches that we work with are very small, perhaps obscure,

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some are struggling places in places of obscurity. Yeah, I'm aware that the scene here in the UK is,

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is not an easy one. And there's lots of people in ministry who are plotting on, and I think post

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COVID congregations have diminished in number. Yeah, in a couple of weeks, I'm going to the

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Gospel Coalition Women's Conference in Indy. And I'm just aware that that is very different to some

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of these tiny churches that we're pastoring like 10, 20 people max. So praying for those people

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who are committed to church families in obscure places, and they're not seeing growth, perhaps the

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church is dying out, pray that they would not be very weary of doing good and they will press on.

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Yeah, that's hard, I think. There are a lot of unsung heroes out there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, not known

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to us, but very precious to the Lord Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Natalie, thank you so much for joining us.

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This has been wonderful. Yeah. And thank you for teaching for O'Kill this year. Thank you. Thank you.

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And for everyone watching, thank you so much. Hope this was a blessing to you. Thank you for joining us.