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People! Good day, good afternoon and good evening wherever you're connecting from in this wonderful

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world. Welcome to the Sunside Kingdom Show, the place where we highlight individuals with roots

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and or associations to the sunny side of the Dutch Kingdom. These accomplished persons are

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true role models and examples of what can be achieved when we combine hard work, perseverance

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and mighty focus. I'm your host John Sandeford aka Jam Sandeford. Let's get into today's episode.

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Welcome to the Sunside Kingdom Show. We came especially today to The Hague to meet you here

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and I would say it's sort of like a multi-layered purpose, right? The Hague is where the political

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arena lies so this is also the place that you execute your job on a daily basis, right? But

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The Hague is also I would say probably the city that is most connected to the islands or at least

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St. Martin to some degree because a large part of the diaspora actually resides here in The Hague

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and we're currently sitting on the edge of The Hague, Schepeningen. We can almost touch the sea.

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We can almost touch the sea and that sea is connected to that vast ocean which lands on

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the shores of St. Martin so we can almost feel it. Yeah from the North Sea to the Atlantic Ocean to

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the Caribbean Sea so once we touch that water we feel that we are connected and that's the theme of

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your podcast where it comes with Kingdom Relations and the Caribbean roots that we carry and the sense

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of belonging that we feel with our Caribbean diaspora here in the Netherlands as well as our

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families and friends overseas. Happy to be here. Thank you, welcome, welcome. So Jereen, let's

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start to peel back the onion. Don't make me cry though.

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And we go back a few years to early childhood, early childhood here in The Hague. What was that

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experience like? When I was born? Yeah, yeah. Really the get-go, the early years. Yeah, the early years.

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Yeah, growing up. Well we'll probably have to first touch on that. Could you tell the people

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where mom is from, where dad is from? Yeah, let me start with that. Yeah my mom of course is from St.

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Martin and she met my dad right here in The Hague where she came to study for her third year education

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like the majority of us still do and so she came at a you know young age of 16, 17

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to come to the kweekschool, you know, to become a teacher and that's where she met my dad. They fell

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in love like many of us do here in the Netherlands once they study and yeah they raised two children.

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I have one brother, one sibling and you know in those years it was also pretty challenging for her

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to return you know, small scale, sometimes politicized in terms of the ability to be able

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to get a job. So they stayed in the Netherlands and so I indeed I was born in the Netherlands in

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The Hague, in the south of The Hague then moved to another part of in the north and then to a small

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village next to The Hague is where I have my finished my primary school and started my secondary

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school in Lyceum before I decided to do my third year education in Rotterdam. Yeah. So where did

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you study? Raasmis University, yeah, healthcare management and during my study, so my final year

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I really you know sensed that I wanted to adventure and get to know my bicultural

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background and my family better. Of course I visited St. Maarten from you know when I was since

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I was two. Yeah. But I thought it was a great opportunity to do my thesis and my research

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on St. Maarten. Because up until that moment you you visited in vacations etc. Yeah. But never

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sort of lived and worked there. Correct, correct. So the first time that I really had an extended stay

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for like almost a year, eight, nine months, was indeed I was already in my early 20s

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and yeah it really grew on me and tried to see explore at the end of my studies but I was able

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to return what as a junior you know those type of persistent problems then are still existing now

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in terms of you know unexperienced whether you're seen as an asset or an opportunity for

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on the labor market that was not the case. So I was unable to work at the hospital, it was very

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small, tiny. My background I couldn't take on a managerial job then so I started as a management

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consultant working for the healthcare industry so to speak in the Netherlands. So that's how I

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built my first five, six years until my mom sent this fax with a vacancy. A fax. A fax.

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A fax. Through the fax machine. So we also have younger folks in our audience. We might have to

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put that right here, show them a little. Show them, yeah. What is that fax machine? They'll probably see the printer icon.

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Donkey years ago as they say. So your mom sent you a fax, what was this fax? A clipping of a newspaper article?

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A clipping of a newspaper article. It was you know a vacancy for the position of sector director.

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But was she living in St. Martin? No, she was vacationing. Oh she was vacationing. Yeah she was spending time with her

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siblings, her sisters and you know she traveled you know on a regular basis especially when we

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grew older without us and so she said like maybe this is an opportunity for you. I was already married

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at my first child so I immediately grabbed the opportunity and applied. But she wouldn't send

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you something like that if it wasn't something that was sort of top of mind or in the realm of wishes?

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What was it? Because you mentioned that during your thesis, my research, during your thesis and your research

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there was an interest for you to continue living on the island and working but the opportunities

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didn't really match the expectations. And then even years later there was still something inside

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that wanted to reconnect in that way. Yeah especially from my end and she knew

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that I had an interest to see if I was able to return and so when she accidentally

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saw the vacancy she sent it. But also you know in the spur of the moment.

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So it was also spontaneous actors. Yeah sometimes it's also about serendipity.

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Serendipity. You know so and yeah so I applied. At that time it was of course an island territory

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on St. Martin and I landed a job, moved with my entire family, never had a dull moment since.

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Always you know try to grab opportunities to make a difference even though I sensed like do I want to

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be a civil servant? That felt kind of like awkward for me at that time but I never had a dull moment

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because I always felt as if you know in the public sector you make and you should make meaningful

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decisions and changes or policies or laws in the interests of people and their livelihoods.

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Yeah and that's also with public health related matters. So I always had a wonderful time then

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grew with receiving more responsibilities, social security related issues, labor related issues and

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then came the 10-10-10 phase of the dismantling of the Netherlands and Tilly's where you then

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become like a quarter master to take on the extra responsibilities to become a country

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within the kingdom of the Netherlands. So those were additional responsibilities.

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So let's just imagine that some of our audience members aren't completely familiar with 10-10-10.

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So what exactly happened in that period? Well in the 90s of course sorry early in the 2000s

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of course St. Martin expressed their interest to follow actually Aruba with their status apart

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from 1986 it was. So they also expressed that the Netherlands and Tilly's construct was not

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in their favor and through a referendum it you know there were an X amount of options,

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what the new constitutional status should be and then the preferred option was status apart. So

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therefore becoming a country within the kingdom of the Netherlands. That has you know been long

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fought, discussed, debated, consulted with the Netherlands with the other islands where Kursou

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then also had a similar referendum so did the other remaining three islands of course because

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there were five left after Aruba had parted of course. So you know that resulted and therefore

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in 10th of October 2010 as you can recall with a completely new arena where the smaller islands

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Borneert, Zeven, Steetje became part of the Netherlands integrated into the Netherlands

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with their constitution and their framework well we can talk a lot about that.

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What do we call it in English? Openbaar Lichaam, Bijzondere Gemeenten, a special municipality.

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A special municipality. Yeah yeah yeah and I experienced a lot during my term as a member

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of parliament indeed of how that integration took place. But that was the explanation of the

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10-10-10 momentum and yeah. And for Sint Maarten and this is just let's say my personal perspective

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it was probably more difficult transitioning for Kursou because a lot of those organizations

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were already establishing Kursou that then supported the Netherlands and Tilly's

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but then Sint Maarten had to overnight stomp out of the ground so many different organizations that

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are needed in order to run your own country. Correct. Yeah. So that capacity issues. Yeah yeah

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from the get-go actually the overall sentiment was that Sint Maarten as not a full island but

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actually half of an island not having the so-called friend side. Yeah. Part of it that

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would be kind of like a mission impossible to take on so many additional responsibilities. Yeah.

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And which indeed is still a challenge you know when you look at reform related issues for instance

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now what we're discussing in the relations within the Kingdom of the Netherlands in terms of the

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required reforms the need to secure sustainable development you know the the the speed in which

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you're able to do so the capacity and knowledge and people that you need to do that in a careful

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effective and you know manner fitting a small island development states that that is still a

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challenge as you know. Yeah. So but here we are it's still it did materialize and Sint Maarten has

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had a rough start with when you look at certain crises that for instance happened in the first

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let's say two decades. Yeah. With Hurricane Irma with the Corona pandemic so where we worldwide I

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talk about triple crisis Sint Maarten had their share. Yeah. So which which is definitely

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extraordinary. And and and throughout well definitely I know in that first crisis but

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then I might be jumping the gun. So let's go back to about that 10 10 10 moment. Yeah. So in in that

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moment you also played a key role in helping to grow some of those particular departments.

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Right. Yeah. So give us a bit more of that perspective. Well just like you mentioned if

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you have to secure a new ministry task and responsibility you have to review and analyze

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whether the existing capacity is sufficient. Yeah. What type of new people you need to fill

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new vacancies fill the vacancies critical to to do the job and take on the responsibilities

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necessary for for people in the area of public health or social security to feel that they and

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and that they see that they are secured in true the responsibilities of government. So that means

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that you try to create opportunities for learning on the island that you indeed ensure that

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recruitment is is done to try and find some Martin is that are willing to come back home

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and fill those critical vacancies that you develop a new team or and that you give opportunities for

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people that had internal positions that they're able to grow with the organization and gain and

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take those new positions as department head for instance. So we we we managed to to to do it on

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a team basis and it has always been a bit of my you know my my my ethics and my my principles

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to do it together because one and one creates more than two. It's the synergy that is that is

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then applied and it helps with the output. So in that transition even though I was a quarter

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masquerade and still and sometimes friends were still send the pictures like look us there at

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the 10th of October when we were like we made it you know we made it we did it and and and that

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feel of like we were one of the first ministries that that that established themselves and we're

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saying able to say we are ready and there and you can say a lot about that. So it's is you know those

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are some of the examples that you have to build look at the inspectorate of public health look

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at social security systems if we take on the health insurance system you know from the Netherlands

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and Tilly's are we able to do so in an appropriate manner is the SZV as a new entity that taking over

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the SZV ready you know with with the capacity to do so and etc. It was really challenging but maybe

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that is also it made up a story of my life that where it comes to certain pressure and leaves

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forwards that are necessary that is that is something that I enjoy and you know after I think in 2013

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14 I was like you know I see that I take a back seat there's a new team ready to take on you have

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to always encourage mobility it's time to leave to do something else which is not easy on a small

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island you know where you live you play you work you do everything but so how to can how can you

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enforce mobility so that your performance always stays on top of the game yeah so I moved to

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to the ministry of education culture youth and sports was wonderful because I never thought

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after having a conversation with a group of friends about you know what is your key priority

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if you would become the president of the of countries in mark what would be your key key

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priority yeah and for me it was education and and then six months later I was able to to take part

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of that ministry and take on some of the challenges that were necessary for that ministry then

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because so if if if I spin back the time a little bit to the moment when when you first moved to

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St Martin you you you didn't feel like like the public sector was the place for you as yet but

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but but growing in your role as secretary general and within the the what's the word I'm looking for

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here yeah within the health care space there at some point you have to have a lot of links and

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connections then with the political arena especially in that whole transition for a 10 10 10 for sure

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so so those elements of of of the public sector then actually slowly started to sip into your day

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job like to some degree well as if you're a sector director you're the primary advisor to the

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political representative being a commissioner or a minister yeah but I should also emphasize that I

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from the day first day that I started as sector director I've I really felt very comfortable very

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much at ease and working within the public sector but when before I started I was like will the

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position as civil servant be something for me it fits with me yeah however from day one I felt at

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ease and comfortable and encouraged yeah uh because you have to contribute whether you're

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a political representative or whether you're a public civil servant to the the well-being of

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of a community yeah of individuals their livelihoods in this case their their public health concerns so

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so the let's say your personal purpose was in line in both of these arenas yeah yeah otherwise I

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wouldn't have survived as I said you know I've never had a dull moment I really really enjoyed

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my work and I really hope with this also with this podcast that you know next generation will be

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encouraged you know I mean I'm speaking to so many young people that are doubtful whether they want

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to go back or yes or no or the obstacles that they see or the limitations that they believe they will

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have which I which I understand they're real but at the same time if you're able to find your niche

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as islanders there's also much much that we can we can do so I never had a dull moment

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and indeed as a secretary general you're closer to the political arena because at that time

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after the 10 10 10 date we also had indeed of course uh you know a closer uh democratic

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structure with the parliament and ministers and and and therefore government versus parliament

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and you know in terms of the trias politica uh being much closer so how will that play out

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in a relatively new democracy therefore how will that play out to to citizens is still a process

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that I think that the the Caribbean islands and countries are in but um um it was great to be

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there for then a primary advisor of of ministers so close to the political arena but not being the

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political representatives but very close in terms of your advisory capacity you have to think with

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them and I have my difficult moments I can tell you that of course where sometimes commissioners

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or ministers would say like what the hell are you busy with and where you sometimes have to count

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until 10 before you respond before you respond

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yeah yeah yeah so I've learned so many things and um yeah and then came Irma uh yeah in 2017

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so that was so when Irma hit you were all you you you were then uh currently the minister of

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um no I was I was secretary general working for the ministry of education culture youth and sports

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so therefore you know within the 24 hours trying to get ready to get where the emergency center is

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in order to check to see where you can assist and how you should assist and whether the schools are

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have been that impacted you know and try to make an analysis and inventory in order to normalize

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society uh you know get parents back you know to contribute to to Simbard's recovery yeah you need

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to have safe spaces in in your schools yeah and so you have to make an assessment what that situation

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is how to get people together how you establish and here we are then here in The Hague establish

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contact with ministry of education here in The Hague yeah how they will assist and that early

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recovery then started and then in the midst of it when political dynamics kind of like hit

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yeah a very sensitive moment indeed I got the opportunity to be minister of education culture

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youth and sport for a short period of time and then indeed was asked to become minister planning

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potentially in the Netherlands because of the intensity of sin martin's recovery the Netherlands

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had then decided to make 550 million euros available through the world bank that arrangement

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uh or 470 to the to the world bank and 80 million earlier recovery or something you know so that's

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where it all started and and and where you have a more diplomatic type of position here in The Hague

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yeah yeah and it was also kind of around that period that we got to meet each other yeah yeah

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and then you know it was a diplomatic role I tried to bring the story of sin martin in a positive

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manner and the story of ermah and and his people and you know that story of that painting of ruby

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beaut oh yeah sin martin will smile again and that went through the various ministries to tell sin

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martin story and you know gain support have a understanding that half half a billion was

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was donated by the Netherlands which was an extensive amount of money so

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build bridges yeah build understanding was at that that time very very critical yeah

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yeah and so that was until 2019 yeah and then we met again during corona yes yeah where I had to

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do a campaign to participate in the second chamber elections and I did so straight out of sin martin's

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which was very extraordinary and you also assisted with the online campaigns that we had to do

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the digital meetings that we had with an overwhelming outcome of close to 16 000 votes

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yeah that yeah that was really yeah I was like flabbergasted yeah I can see you'll see myself

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sitting in the living room there by my mom and we we heard you know we saw some of the outcomes and

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the outcomes and you know yeah that that was an amazing moment yeah and so in my head for me that

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moment is still the first sin martin based roots person in the in in the second chamber is that

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correct it's correct that's yeah especially definitely running the campaign out of the

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caribbean from the caribbean not a person of caribbean descent residing and living in the

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netherlands so that was kind of extraordinary I can still recall rob yet to telling me like no

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don't don't move to the netherlands just stay put yeah you're there it's allowed people were like

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are you able to do this this out of sin martin don't you have to you know be registered here in

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the netherlands no it was not necessary so I learned a lot and that's how we did it which was

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extraordinary and yeah d66 have been you know the one that really wanted to to support and bring

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a new type of um you know connection between the islands somebody understanding and also with

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certain type of skills and yeah to be able to survive in the in in parliament also because I

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can tell you that you know after the 31st of march 2021 yeah it was like a roller coaster a jungle I

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felt like a toddler I had to learn so many new things and and on your own so so dive into some

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of those challenges yeah first of all uh I like to be a person that is successful yeah a successful

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term and explain in terms of being meaningful you know having purpose and being made being able to

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make a change for people yeah but being having been away for many years in order to understand

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the political dynamics the political factions and and what their ideology is like the manner in which

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debates are done and then I'm like well okay um I come from a Caribbean island which we you know if

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we want to use many words we will and we will speak for 30 minutes if we if we are allowed to

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and in the majority of cases we were allowed there it's like okay you have three minutes you have

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four minutes make your point your interruptions have to be to the point in one minute two minutes

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I was like yeah how to be expressive yeah uh successful persuasive get my point across if you

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want you have two two two responsibilities as member of parliament that is to control government

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in what they agreed that they would do in their term yeah coalition agreement and two you have a

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legislative responsibility so how to manage those two responsibilities effectively in the interests

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of people with my particular portfolios and those were your portfolio yeah I started of course with

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kingdom relations yeah the natural that was yeah and the second one that's why I had a dream

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portfolio I must say I had a dream portfolio I had but in the get-go I did three things three

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political portfolios kingdom relations culture and the creative industries therefore and media

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and media was the most complicated portfolio because the media landscape had

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changed tremendously and and where you always have to look at media also in terms of their

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informative and educational responsibility as they are funded by the government so funded by

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the public sector yeah and therefore have an educational duty and also a duty where it comes

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to safety and the democracy of a society you know informed citizens so for those who are

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citizens so for those and I'm also maybe a little bit ignorant to this fact so that that relates

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then to like naderland a naderland to a npo the broadcast so all of the the broadcast the

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dutch broadcast system yes and and then with the new digital economy and the streaming and

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and yeah the new tech players around influencing citizens and how that relates to the original

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idea of an analog tv type of system that we have where I used to sit between the you know with my

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parents watching channel one two or three yeah so where it is publicly funded with the objective to

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to inform citizens shape society enhance democracy but where you then have to reconsider

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whether as government or as parliament control that reality with so many new players around in

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the media sector a lot of the players aren't remotely dutch no exactly so it's a lot of

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mergers social media platforms international players streaming it's a lot of the international

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players and and how how would things like well youtube for instance where the platform that we're

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streaming this on how how does that connect in that in in that space should be should be considered

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should be considered in terms of once once you have to evaluate the effect effectiveness of the

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policies and the laws that are there and whether it does to society what you intend to do you have

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to consider those new media channels that are there and are reaching especially new generations

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so and that's that is a reason to re re reanalyze reconsider how you want to

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to use the what is it one billion that was available for written new written media the

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newspapers yeah or tv and that's the process ongoing but i i did it for a couple of months

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and then as the second biggest political party in in parliament you have to take on the responsibility

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also to be a chairperson of permanent committees so i um you know was asked and was allowed to become

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the the the chair of the permanent committee of development cooperation and foreign trade okay

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yeah so and that's completely different uh yeah but yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and especially

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i took it on when you know the ukraine war started and the whole new geopolitical dynamics and the

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new economic warfare is influencing trade started so you don't have to take the political position

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yeah you are you have the chair role uh but uh overall i had there for them two political

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responsibilities with political portfolios and i chaired the debates of that permanent committees

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round table consultations technical briefings meetings uh in many ways or for instance last

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year we uh traveled to rwanda uh with a big delegation and then you are the delegation leader

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yeah uh where you explore the development aid cooperation but you also explore opportunities of

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of trade yeah for instance so yeah i had a dream portfolio i must say and it was uh as i said a

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roller coaster wonderful learning experience uh and um yeah where you hope to have contributed

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for instance in culture and creative industries they were heavily affected during the corona

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pandemic uh but but uh the six islands as well so so the first year was really focused on

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the impact of the pandemic and how you're able to ensure that the islands survive or that the creative

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industry and the makers those that are creative entrepreneurs on their own are able to you know

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keep afloat and and survived it was the first year you know very very dominant you know what's

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interesting well you mentioned it already but as we go through your story then then it's uh

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you tend to rise in these crisis moments yeah like the crisis moment in 10 10 10 where where

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everything was up in the air and someone needed to uh uh well many persons needed to play a role in

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in in sort of balance in the chaos and you played a significant role there as well as in the crisis

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of hurricane ermah and and the rebuilding process and the role that you played there in the in the

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immediate um in the immediate recovery phase and then as you enter political dutch arena for the

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first time i i think it was the first time in decades that we had such a crisis moment in the

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netherlands i mean it was worldwide but then netherlands specific uh um i i don't think they

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had any of those type of crises that affected the complete country maybe since uh the war

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yeah clubs um so that says something about maybe what you know that i like these type

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of challenges or that i have the skill to create some sense of hyper focus uh hyper focus and chaos

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yeah or in need for instance last night i think until what was it 11 12 o'clock

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you know you followed the debate in the second chamber with regards to the social domain social

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security related issues employment and the cope car not regal sdc in dutch and you know you

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collaborate with uh spokespersons and members of parliament of other parties as well as your own

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party members to see if we can you know do justice to as we say the caribbean three municipalities

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both in seba and stacia that have fought and expressed really the needs to really fight poverty

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yeah and therefore increase the minimum wage increase welfare increase pension uh you know

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support in many ways since especially since last year where we're rising inflation rising full

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prices has you know posed so many challenges to families single parent families etc and those

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challenges are particularly um well they grow exponentially in the islands since uh well

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especially the dutch islands they're they're they're all dependent on import for their food

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supply yeah and when you have uh transportation that triples in prices during the corona crisis

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or even quadruples in some cases 280 dollars between seba station or between seba and simurton

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yeah you know like those prices it's crazy yeah so it has a huge impact on their economic development

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on their economic growth or like let's say development i think that's a better term

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it's in terms of growth and therefore the position of families and their ability to survive

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raise families raise their children and therefore create a bit the best head start of the next

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generation in terms of their sense of stability their sense of safety that's their sense of and

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their ability to do their schooling in a safe and effective manner so i was happy therefore with

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the outcome yesterday so and then now yeah we we we gained a majority in in parliament to support

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to support i mean through my motion i've asked the government to establish a special committee

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to do all the analysis on what the social minimum is supposed to be they've presented their report

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last week i know that you're going to air this later on so hopefully you know some of the things

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that we're now exploring in the face of implementing will be clearer then by that time

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you know but the majority you know decided to support an initiative that i started together with

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another political party and a spokesperson to raise the minimum wage with not a little step a

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little bit but with a huge leap forward oh yeah so wonderful yeah so i really hope that uh i'm

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i'm looking forward to the moment that this goes live that we can potentially already place a link

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in the bottom that you can see that they've made some great steps there yeah yeah yeah but i also

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saw that there was an announcement um on linkedin i believe it was from me from you oh that i will

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not continue yes yes yeah well before we touch on that part we would have to obviously let our

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viewers know those that are not in the dutch kingdom that the the current coalition has

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what would be the term government fell government fell um so so so therefore there's going to be

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new elections coming up on the 22nd of november 22nd okay yeah and for those new elections you've

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decided not to run again correct um would you want to express a bit uh about that decision yeah it

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was uh i actually before government fell and before therefore the new elections were called

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i had decided that i would limit to one term okay that i would complete my four years term that i'm

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not a um you know a person with the ambition to be a long-term dutch politician yeah in in the haig

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yeah and therefore not to decide to go for another four years yeah and therefore run into eight years

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that was one uh of course i didn't expect the government to fall two weeks later after i

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i kind of like came to that type of conclusion i was like okay

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okay i'm like i'm not finished yet you know that's complicated complicated then i because so that's

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kind of like traumatic in terms of okay so what does this mean yeah how will that interrupt you

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know my my my priorities that i would like to complete yeah i thought i had a year plus to go

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and now i only have five six months to go um what can i push well that that created that hyper

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focus in terms of this social social minimum for caribbean uh the dutch municipalities dutch

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caribbean municipalities that's something that i really want to focus on that's why i'm so happy

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with that so you have to really internalize everything that's happening in the summer months

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and then in the summer months i was on sin martin and you have to reflect on okay so am i ready to

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take that on again yeah you know i had run on sin martin uh political campaigns in 2016 and 2018

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in 2020 uh and now then again uh in 2024 of course the no 2020-21 for the second chamber

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yeah and are you willing and able to make that commitment once more for four years yeah and my

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answer was i wouldn't be able to do so and then you also look at the political landscape and

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a political arena and what type of politics you i expect as the outcome of uh and and what is

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currently developing and then you have to be honest and then you should not be selfish but

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you really have to think on the general interest and the next politician that that's going to step

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up and with that long-term commitment yeah i wouldn't want to be the one saying like i would

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love to continue and then disrupt after a year by saying well i think i would like to maybe complete

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or stop stop my my my work prematurely uh while you're in the midst of maybe uh you know a cultural

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innovative or renewal agenda yeah i would rather than have new politicians aspiring to be

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long-term politician to to to to be there from the get-go i really you really need to be willing

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to make that commitment for four more years yeah and if you cannot answer that you should step out

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and make room for somebody else and of course i looked around and supported uh you know some

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people encouraged some people where i think that should be an inspiring next generation for my party

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d66 so yeah i'm uh yeah that's a decision and then of course people start to ask like

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so what's it gonna be are you gonna go back to same i was just about to ask so what's next

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yeah then honestly honestly when that question was asked in august september i was like don't ask me

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i can't because you know first of all it was too premature yeah and i also felt like i am a member

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of parliament until the fifth of december yeah and the work has does not stop of december yeah

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until the two weeks after the elections and then after the elections but but but that's also

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the day before your birthday correct oh so you know so my first day of what would you say freedom

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free freedom is uh wow yeah those are some stars and lightning yeah yeah so yeah um i you know press

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on uh i felt as if that question in terms of what's your next move what will you do will you move

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back what what what is what what are your next aspirations i felt like that's unethical to think

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about because i'm uh you know i'm a representative of the people so to speak and the people's interests

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go before my personal interest yeah in in that sense you know of a new of a career change but

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i know that i will start to focus on that uh in the last weeks of october early november where

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certain things calm down i will have my last uh kingly relations debate about the budget 2024

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next week okay i will do one very very short debate about cultural heritage in the upcoming

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week and i have some ideas there so yeah that is uh first the priority to see if i can be successful

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and um you know make it make a difference in in people's lives yeah i think that people

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especially those that voted for me but everybody also those on the other side of the ocean where

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they rely sometimes on the decisions that we make here in the hag you know you have to see

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whether you can go the maximum for instance curacao aruba st martin the any alone the corona loans

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the you know the sensitive socioeconomic position yeah that they still endure due to corona due to

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irma due to global developments rising energy prices you name it yeah everything you know comes

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together and creates this huge challenge for for for the caribbean region in its entirety

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i mean i'm a great fan for instance of me and motley of barbedas where she you know really takes

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the stage to express the the urgent needs of not only the entire caribbean region but also

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small islands and micro states uh you know so so i hope that i uh that i have an opportunity even

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after this term as member of parliament to always contribute in different ways i mean leadership

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comes in so many ways look at you look at you in you know the leadership role that you have taken

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from the get-go when you were a young entrepreneur and uh also with this podcast uh so that always

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thank you that always has been yeah that has always been my uh leadership and social leadership

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or community leadership can be defined in so many different ways so many different ways indeed so

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earlier you mentioned that um once when you made the decision to uh exit this current position

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um that you also want to encourage uh those coming afterwards uh forward if if you were to look now

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at um at our caribbean brothers and sisters or or sons and daughters um that may have similar

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aspirations and goals to um one day be in the political arena here in the netlands for instance

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what let's let's say two advice two two two pieces of advice that you could give them

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um because there's not that many that have done it before are or are even currently there right

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how many persons with a caribbean background are currently in parliament well if you if you if you

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consider for instance the the greater caribbean including suriname they share we share the caribbean

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c uh it is also sylvanas simmons it's also don't say there and it's uh also now by the way also

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richardson being part of the baby days he just came back as she replaced another another member

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of parliament recently so they're kind of like four and somebody of african descent so you know

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the diversity is it's enhancing let's say diversity on the afro afro caribbean it's about five yeah

393
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:18,640
um out of the how many 150 150 okay so then percentage wise what are we talking about

394
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:26,080
about three percent no that's yeah about three percent yes three percent okay yeah all right

395
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:31,760
we'll have to crunch some more numbers yes look at up to what demographics if it represents a

396
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:37,360
definite demographics we we should we should be at in order to represent the demographics of what

397
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:42,080
we actually represent within the dutch kingdom i think it's close it's close i think it's close

398
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:49,520
i think there are 200 plus caribbean diaspora here in the netherlands 200 plus 200 000 plus

399
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:58,880
um and then when we when we count when we count all of the afro as well um which island well the

400
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:05,360
six islands when we when we um more than 200 000 but that's in the netherlands okay yeah okay

401
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:11,040
yeah that's why it's sometimes referred to as the seventh island in the netherlands

402
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:18,240
so yeah so which is which was a leap forward in comparison to the years before it's like you

403
00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:25,520
mentioned and i really hope that that will uh be the outcome once more this 22nd of november yeah

404
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:34,160
there are multiple parties with uh with a diverse um list of candidates gender wise age wise uh

405
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:42,400
diversity wise and ethnicity uh race uh cultural backgrounds so which is hopeful

406
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:47,360
and it's necessary it's definitely not a luxury i think it will further enhance

407
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:52,880
the ability to have an inclusive democracy that people feel represented yeah and that they see

408
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,880
that their representation makes a difference you know every time i travel back to saint martin they

409
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:02,000
really mention like yo we see you you you know you even though you're maybe not even in the dutch

410
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:07,840
newspapers with the thing that you that you that you accomplish yeah you are you are in our newspapers

411
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:14,160
and we do see what you do what you do and yeah it is appreciated so that gives uh it gives a good

412
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:21,760
it gives a good feel you are highly appreciated madame thank you looking forward to do to see you

413
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:34,400
more and um yeah me as well and so so so let's take one of those little nostalgic uh deep dives

414
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:44,880
again um if you were to imagine that 18 year old yorin is sitting here because i think early 20s

415
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:52,880
yorin uh went back to saint martin for the first time but but 18 year old yorin so she's um freshly

416
00:48:53,520 --> 00:49:00,720
young adult looking into this big wide world with dreams and aspirations with your current

417
00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:14,080
experience and knowledge what advice would you give 18 year old yorin um to dare to dream and to

418
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:23,680
understand that life is not a better roses and it goes up and down and that you shouldn't take

419
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:29,280
things too serious and just do sometimes yeah without overthinking certain things and trust

420
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:36,000
once you believe in yourself that things will play out well or good uh you cannot oversee your plan

421
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:41,920
everything away of time certain things is comes together sometimes it is related to your dreams

422
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:49,520
uh and once you understand your strengths and you believe in yourself uh you know that life will

423
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:58,000
progress you know in a in a positive manner and you know when it comes to the caribbean diaspora

424
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:04,240
diaspora maybe something that i felt less because i participated in a dutch society from from the

425
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:12,640
get-go from young yeah my my advice to a caribbean 18 year old that that reaches here but feels that

426
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:18,400
they're not part of society then that first advice is still relevant but it's also like that feeling

427
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:23,600
of like oh i probably here for a short period of time i will leave yeah you you never know

428
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:29,760
that whether you will go back or will stay so try and participate from day one uh understand that

429
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:36,720
for instance where you have that first vote uh not in your caribbean home country but here in

430
00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:41,440
netherlands make sure you participate because the things that are for instance decided here in the

431
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:47,760
hag with regards to education with regard to housing with regards to social welfare social

432
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:53,920
security with regards to so many or kingdom relations yeah you know affects you as well so

433
00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:59,360
that that that has been challenging what i've noticed is sometimes campaigning like that there

434
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:05,120
are so many of the caribbean diaspora on the outskirts looking in or thinking it doesn't

435
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:11,360
matter or that they can't make a difference anyway yeah which is harmful not only to yourself

436
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:17,040
but also to your family members for instance and for instance on the other side of the ocean so my

437
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:21,360
advice would be where it comes to your personal career you know as i mentioned in terms of dare

438
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:25,600
to dream and feel comfortable in with yourself and you're express you're allowed to express

439
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:32,240
yourself the way you can and and and accomplish the things that you think are meaningful and

440
00:51:32,240 --> 00:51:38,080
purposeful for you the other hand it's also where it comes to social life and community life and

441
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:45,760
democratic life and the freedoms that we enjoy to therefore participate in for instance elections

442
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:53,040
whether they're local in your municipality or with the elections coming up on the 22nd

443
00:51:54,480 --> 00:52:02,640
for the second chamber because because oftentimes um i've also experienced it to some degree

444
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:10,880
when when i first moved back uh to the netherlands that uh i was only going to be here for a short

445
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:18,000
period of time so uh it was probably the first two to three years that i would that i wasn't

446
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:25,440
grasping it maybe maybe even understanding society yeah or understanding what the what the options

447
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:33,360
or the political priorities were considered yeah it uh it definitely took a while and um

448
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:40,080
and and and having i also believe is very important that there's that there's avenues

449
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:46,160
that we can go to where we can have those type of conversations and and get that part of the education

450
00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:54,560
that um that that helps and allows us to understand how we sort of fit in yeah that that that that

451
00:52:54,560 --> 00:53:00,720
definitely uh takes time so that but you know i mean it in that sense of encouragement uh that

452
00:53:00,720 --> 00:53:05,680
i also met family members that haven't vote for for the 20 years that they've been here you know so

453
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:13,040
you know those type of examples are there as well uh i i really also look forward but that's something

454
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:17,920
that i may want to debate next week in terms of you know i think we had a conversation before

455
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:24,560
when i was minister planet potentiary where he said like why wouldn't uh you know caribbean

456
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:30,400
students that have to leave the island to further their studies here why wouldn't they be allowed to

457
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:37,280
vote on their islands yeah you know yeah where we go back to you know level of innovation critical

458
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:45,440
voice ability for the islands to develop accordingly i mean in many cases the young vote is is missed

459
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:53,040
yeah very so i really hope that we will find some formula in which that is feasible i understand

460
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:58,320
that you have to register here municipality to get the duo and the study financing and all that

461
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:02,880
all that type of stuff but because because essentially the other way around it's possible

462
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:10,480
for for for um you have to register well persons that were dutch citizens at some point

463
00:54:12,240 --> 00:54:18,400
live in in washington wherever they can still vote correct in in second chamber in the second

464
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:24,160
chamber because that is matters of their of their home country but you know why you know what they

465
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:31,200
say and what the distinctive difference is it makes it a challenging discussion and exploration

466
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:38,880
is that those dutch nationals are oftentimes not allowed to vote and exercise their voting

467
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:46,000
rights elsewhere based on the dutch nationality while those caribbean dutch students with a

468
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:54,720
dutch nationality are allowed to vote here and therefore exercise their rights but it's about

469
00:54:54,720 --> 00:55:01,120
extracting a younger generation out of your country yeah and therefore not giving them the

470
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:07,760
opportunity to influence the direction of their country to which they expect to return to and what

471
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:12,800
that will do with democracy and change is an interesting conversation this is again one of

472
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:21,440
those like catch-22s catch-22s and and and and really challenging challenges

473
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:30,320
that that that we face as small island nations uh and with a colonial past etc that that's

474
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:37,280
okay interesting conundrum yeah yeah when i when i participate in this conference in in trinidad

475
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:43,600
about innovation developments in the caribbean and the greater caribbean yeah where they really

476
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:49,200
express that indeed the caribbean islands due to the net the the history and the colonial history

477
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:55,680
takes out a majority of of their younger generation to study in the uk in the states and canada and

478
00:55:55,680 --> 00:56:01,920
the netlands and that they don't return is that that it does also influence the ability of the

479
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:07,920
caribbean islands to innovate yeah to change and that when i when i heard you know an important

480
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:14,720
speaker expressed that i was like that is therefore also critical to consider uh in moving forward and

481
00:56:14,720 --> 00:56:22,800
we will never be able to because if if if those that leave feel a certain disconnect with where

482
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:30,160
they are but they also start to grow a disconnect with where they're from yes and and that disconnect

483
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:38,000
is is not bridged in the right way because they also can't express their voice in in in the future

484
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:46,480
shape in of of that country it then probably puts many in a position of feeling helpless to some

485
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:56,880
degree that i've sort of grown a distance um with where i'm from um i'm slowly maybe integrating

486
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:05,120
here and some maybe never do um so you do get a feeling of feeling voiceless over time yes and

487
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:12,880
that has been proven the research has been done by you know the the demographic institutions or

488
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:18,960
the democratic institutions here to explore these type of subjects it's proven that people of caribbean

489
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:25,120
descent often do not partake in in these type of democratic elections and which is a concern

490
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:32,480
because once you decide to postpone and not do it or or consider it to be something not necessary

491
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:38,960
now but in the future you run the risk of being you know on the outside for extended period of time

492
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:46,480
or may may not ever ever want to vote anymore and those yeah i think you know in we are we are here

493
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:54,400
in europe in these democratic societies which is you know cherished look at what is happening in

494
00:57:54,400 --> 00:58:02,640
the world uh with you know strong leaders uh you know shutting down journalists that are not allowed

495
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:09,760
to do their you know their their media have their media outlets anymore or they control uh the

496
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:20,560
justice uh uh sector and so you know in that sense i do think that freedoms as we experience in this

497
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:29,200
democratic societies that we live in are supposed to be nurtured supported but never be taken for

498
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:40,640
granted yeah we can continue that and go on and on and on and um and and uh we'll probably circle

499
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:46,080
back around in in june time and uh continue these conversations but i know you're also

500
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:54,400
a very busy lady and have to uh move on to the next appointment so yurin i would like to thank

501
00:58:54,400 --> 00:59:02,720
you very very much for being here today um this is our final episode of season one and we wanted to

502
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:10,880
have a climactic finish lucky number seven lucky number seven i i've also like taken on the number

503
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:18,560
seven as one of my lucky numbers as well as oh my god this is crazy as well as 13 today is actually

504
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:25,520
the 13th it is it is yeah it is i had to take on 13 because friday the 13th because my birthday is

505
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:31,200
on the 13th and many times they would tell me is unlucky and i'm like no it's gonna be a lucky

506
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:37,760
number there you go i'm not gonna let you determine what is gonna be lucky or unlucky for me i'll make

507
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:43,760
13 a lucky number yeah so you take control of your life exactly you have been one of those examples

508
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:48,960
that i've seen over the last couple of years of always indeed you know creating your own path

509
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:57,280
of being a entrepreneurial in in nature and always indeed contributing to to you know the

510
00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:02,160
country that you're from the caribbean islands that you are from and finding ways through a

511
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:09,920
podcast or through your assistance also after ermah in how you are able even from here in the

512
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:16,560
netherlands being able to be helpful so i know that you're traveling this weekend so enjoy the

513
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:23,280
islands thank you much success also with that event upcoming that smile event smile event

514
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:29,120
thank you very much yeah i look forward to seeing you soon and to talk some more

515
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:38,960
yeah for sure oh are we doing this one island style there you go so thank you guys

516
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:46,080
at home for tuning in whether it's on the mobile phone the tablet the laptop the television

517
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:55,920
please subscribe like and follow for more content this was unfortunately the end of season one but

518
01:00:55,920 --> 01:01:02,480
at the same time fortunately the end of season one so i'll see you in the new year for season two

519
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:30,320
thank you see you soon