People!
Welcome to the Sunside Kingdom Show.
The place where we highlight successful individuals with roots and or associations to the sunny side of the Kingdom.
As you can see, we're on the sunny side of the Kingdom today, baby.
These accomplished individuals show us what it's like to combine hard work, perseverance and focus to achieve their goals.
I'm your host, John Sandiford, aka JamSandiford.
Let's get into today's episode.
People!
Welcome to the Sunside Kingdom Show.
So we have with us today.
Today, it's actually, it's a family affair today.
That's what we're going to call it.
We're going to call it a family affair.
I mean, most of these podcasts are a family affair, but then this is like true family blood affair.
What are you talking about?
This is the first time I'm meeting you.
Oh snap.
Okay.
I guess that's what it is.
So we have with us today, Miss Vincentia Rosen Sandiford, Director of Bureau of Intellectual Property on St. Martin, became Director sub 30.
Correct?
Yeah, before 30.
Yeah.
Officially at 29.
Oh, so it's at sub 30 and has grown the organization to a nice successful branch here in the Dutch Caribbean.
Has been doing many innovative things with the organization.
Has been leading by example rather than following in all cases.
So that's why and because it's a family affair, she's also my sister.
And that's why I came on the show because he has to compliment me today.
Snap.
All right.
So Vincentia, you know, that's going to be weird for me because we have our household nicknames, but we'll keep that off camera.
Off camera.
So Vincentia, introduce yourself to the people.
Who am I?
Who is Vincentia Rosen Sandiford professionally?
Okay.
So professionally, I am the Director of the Bureau for Intellectual Property, St. Martin, but I actually prefer to say I hold the position of Director of the Bureau for Intellectual Property, St. Martin.
Because I think when we're younger and even those before us, more seasoned professionals, they define themselves by what they do.
But what you do is not who you are.
And because we're making this a family affair and we're talking about me personally, who I am is who God says I am.
We'll put in an applause right there.
Since you're my sister, I obviously know a lot more details than the average person.
But one of those details is I know it's been a dream of yours ever since you were a little girl to become a lawyer.
And that this is still part of your journey.
Obviously, with intellectual property, law is a very big aspect of it as well.
But there's other aspects to it that sort of are adjacent to law.
But let's go back to that dream of that little girl.
Yeah.
Where did that come from?
Okay.
So I'm the youngest of seven children.
You came before me.
Just one year.
One year, nine days.
But who's counting?
I am.
And it started when I was eight years old.
So at eight years old, I was watching As the World Turns with my mom.
You know, the soap opera of the 90s.
Yeah.
Big hit.
And there was this black, strong, successful woman with luscious hair going to court,
defending people.
And I thought, you know, that's who I want to be.
I want to make a difference in this world.
And if she can do it, then I can do it.
So, you know, what they say, right?
Representation matters.
And this is exactly the reason why the idea of this podcast even came about is because
we need more representation in the media, in the online space of showing,
showcasing the talented individuals that we have hailing from the Dutch Caribbean.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Funny enough, I know the story, but then I forgot that detail of it being the law
as the world turns.
I mean, a part of the reason to and another reason to wanting to do law is being the youngest.
I wasn't the smartest or that's what I was told.
I wasn't the fastest.
That was obvious.
I wasn't the strongest, but the one thing that I had was my voice.
So law just seemed like the natural way to be able to use my voice in a positive way.
Yeah.
Okay.
So when you talk about things of not being the strongest, fastest, smartest, etc.
Well, I know there was a bit of a turning point already early in your education that turned you into way more focused in Syria.
So give the people a bit of that context.
So just imagine anyone that struggled in a similar way, maybe coming from a big household
and there being a flavor of competitiveness within the household.
How do you what were the things that helped you overcome that and then grew further beyond that?
Oh, that's an awesome question because I mean that takes me into you have to have people that believe in you.
I think Oprah said it.
Well, it's okay.
If your family doesn't believe in you, you just need that one person to believe in you.
And the transition for me, although at eight years old, I made up my mind that I wanted to go into law.
I still just wanted to play with my Barbies.
Shout out to Barbie.
The movie just came out.
We're not paid to say this.
Hey, copyright infringement.
It's not copyright infringement.
I'm giving.
I'm not educated on the copyright.
All right.
Giving an unpaid shout out because I'm a Barbie fan and my daughter and I are going to go see the movie.
So repeat the question.
Okay. So how did you what were the things to help you overcome?
Yeah, I remember.
So at eight years old, I made up my mind like this is what I want to do and I was like very resolute about it.
But I also was struggling with I want to play with my Barbies and I want to play with my friends and I want to have fun.
And they don't think I'm smart anyways.
So why should I try that hard?
And at 10 years old, we moved back to St. Martin when I was 10 and I had a certain me's teacher called your from Myra.
Okay, shout out to you from Myra.
Yes, definitely.
Shout out to you from Myra because she changed my life because she believed in me.
And if I didn't do my homework well, or if I didn't do well on the test,
she held me accountable because she believed that I could do more.
And back in the day, teachers could throw a chalk at you to make you pay attention.
They don't do that anymore.
Okay. All right.
Before they go look for you from Myra 25 years later.
It worked.
Yeah.
So definitely that was the turning point.
All right.
So then continue this journey now.
So that was a turning point at 10 years old, but at 10, obviously, you're not a lawyer.
No.
So how did the journey continue?
And then how did you remain focused?
Because I mean, at eight years old, different kids say I want to be a fireman or astronaut or a policeman or a rock star or whatever.
And not everyone holds on to that eight year old childish dream and continues with it until their adult grown life.
So it's a long story.
You ready for it?
Well, let's go with the short version with some of the highlight moments.
So you found Myra being a highlighted moment to make the switch.
What felt like another highlight moment sort of during the teens to continue to motivate on that journey?
I'm thinking. It's my thinking, you know.
So then afterwards, I got into HAVO.
Yeah.
And at that point, it was in the first six months, like all the teachers were really impressed with me and they were like, keep it up.
And you're going to go to VABO because back then you could go from HAVO to VABO 2.
I think now it's like you go to VABO 3 or something like that.
So they take longer.
Yeah.
And at that point, when things were going really well for me in school, mom was like, hey, I want to move to Dominica because I've always wanted to go back to Dominica.
We got Dominican roots.
Yep.
Barbados roots.
We're Caribbean people, you know.
And at that point, I felt a disappointment because I felt, oh, my gosh, you know, what's going to happen to my dreams and what I want.
This is not part of my journey because I already at 10 years old had the whole thing planned out.
That's me.
How I'm going to get there.
So that was a very nice life lesson then.
That was, yeah.
You can plan all you want and God will laugh.
Well, you know, that's funny because this morning I was thinking about that.
I was thinking about the God will laugh thing.
And instead, I'm like, no, God hasn't been laughing.
He's been saying, I have better plans for you.
And hold my hand.
Okay, he's not laughing.
He's grinning.
You think you got plans?
I got better plans.
At 12 years old, I mean, at 8, 10, 12, I thought I had it figured out, right?
And we went to Dominica and we were there for two and a half years.
And at that time, I thought, oh, my God, this is the worst thing ever.
And coming from the Netherlands to St. Martin was such a big culture shock because, I mean, we spent most of our childhood in the Netherlands.
And then we came to St. Martin.
It was a culture shock.
But we were born here.
So we from here.
So it was still like, yeah, we come in home.
Yeah.
And then we went to Dominica's like, yeah, but what is this place?
Rivers, food and this or that.
But I mean, over there, we had then, but what I at least felt when we went to Dominica was because our mom's family is from there, then we sort of met and interacted with the most amount of family ever in our whole lives.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
But I think in the first like six months or a year, I didn't have the appreciation for it because it was making my plan.
Like, you know, it was like at that time, I was like, this is messing with my plan.
Okay, family. Great.
Hi, love you guys.
But my plan, it's not working.
So but I think in the last month that we were in Dominica, I was really taking it in.
I was going with my friends to rivers, driving around and Dominica is huge compared to St.
Martin. So you take like a three hour drive to get to another spot.
And at that time, I knew that that two and a half years would help shape the rest of my life because, you know, we had formally initially a Dutch education.
Yeah.
But then we got into the English system, which is very different.
So having that kind of added to the chameleons that I would say that we are as Caribbean people and having that diverse background, it kind of opens up the door of being able to connect with a greater group of people.
So at 15, our mom got breast cancer.
And that was another huge turning point. Yeah.
But then that made us move back to St. Martin.
And then I wanted to get back into Havo.
And at that time, they said to me, you can't because you've been going to English school for the last two and a half years.
How are you going to fall back into the Dutch system?
And then they said, okay, you know what?
Write a letter in Dutch and we're going to have a meeting about you like all the teachers that were your teachers back then.
And we're going to have a vote.
And we need all your books from Dominica because we need to determine if it's at the same level.
Yeah. And I got let back into Havo on a trial basis.
So by the first midterm report, if I had more than two failing grades, then I would have to go to one of the English schools, Academy or St. Dominic.
And at the end of Havo four, I was at the top of the three Havo fours.
And at the end of Havo five, I was at second best because, you know, challenges life. Mom had breast cancer.
Yeah. Well, I think I think for the folks at home, you can already hear how the perseverance, the dedication was always there throughout all of these legs of the journey.
And it's always interesting because even though you grew up in the same household, your path and your focus on things can be very different.
And yeah, so amazing.
So now we're at 18 and 17.
Oh, yes. Snap. Sorry.
I was 18. So 17.
And you graduate from Havo being in the top two of the class of 2003.
And now we're moving on to the next chapter.
So what were some of the highlight moments in that part of the chapter?
You mean Fontys?
Yeah.
So I was still living with the disappointment of not going to VABO and not being able to go directly to university.
However, I thought to myself, hey, we come from a single parent household.
Our mom is fighting for her life.
I need to get an education as quickly as possible so I can take care of myself.
And at that time, 17, 18, it was see you guys.
You're on your own.
So the smart thing to do was not to do another two years of high school for me personally.
I mean, everybody's journey is different.
But for me personally, it was survival mode.
So get a degree, get a job, and then figure out how to get that law degree.
And that took me into the study management, economics and law.
Because again, I'm thinking, overthinking.
Nobody had yet graduated from the degree.
So I was like, what kind of job I'm going to get?
Nobody had graduated from Jabi Allah in 2003.
That was a brand new study.
It was like two, three years.
Nobody had yet graduated from what I understood at the time from that study.
So I was like, oh, that was similar to the study I did then.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So then it was like, I don't want to be a poof, which is like, I don't want to be a guinea pig.
I was going to say lab rat.
Okay.
All right.
Let's keep it neat.
Guinea pig.
So I did the study management, economics and law, which is a bachelor's in business administration
when you translate it for the English speaking territories.
However, that was God setting me up for my talents.
My many talents.
God's plan.
Not my plan.
Cue the beat.
Okay, so that's at the beginning of the journey.
Were there any specific things during your studies that sort of stood out to you as those
other significant moments to help shape you on to where you are today?
Oh, that's a good question.
I quickly realized that not just that I wanted to be a leader, but that I was a leader.
During the study?
Yeah.
Okay.
Definitely.
Because you know at Fonthies and I mean, it's in Dutch education.
Typically, you have to be in project groups.
So the one semester is you're doing subjects, you're doing exams.
That's in Javeo generally.
And then the other semester is project, projects, projects.
Yeah.
And generally, I wouldn't necessarily put myself at the front to be the leader, you know,
growing up being the youngest.
However, it was just like a natural evolution.
It was kind of inevitable because who would be the one who would take the reins?
And it's funny enough.
I had a teacher tell me back then name shall not be called.
Okay.
That you're never going to be a leader.
That was in Javeo.
I think in my third year, she was like, you're too strict.
You're not giving other people a chance.
And she honestly didn't know the whole story because we were working together with,
okay, a little bit of the backstory.
We had a project where we were working together with, I think it was a middle school in Appledorn.
Okay.
So we had to travel pretty far from Aintoba to Appledorn.
And what we were doing with that school, that would be like, what, a two hour?
Two and a half to three hours.
Oh, yeah.
Because by train then with the public transportation.
Yeah.
About almost three hours.
Ove life.
Yeah.
So three hours one way.
So, you know, so that's a whole commitment to do a project there with a school.
And the teachers at the school, the principal of the school commended me, told me that like,
you're really good at this.
You're good with the kids.
Have you ever thought about becoming a teacher?
And that's the funny thing of one of the things that God says I am.
I am a teacher, but not necessarily a teacher in a traditional sense of standing in front of the classroom.
But what I know I teach, whether it is to entrepreneurs, to business people, my life is about teaching.
So we went to the school and we were raising funds for an Afghan school.
Okay.
Afghan girls school because at that time the Afghan war was was pretty.
It was pretty rampant in the early 2000s and girls were not allowed to be educated.
And there were like huts and tents where girls were being educated.
But then obviously they needed funding.
So we worked together with an organization that specifically did that.
And there are many other different occasions that outside of the project from school where.
So did you do that project with your friend that's also from?
Yes.
Okay.
Yes.
That friend that's also from Afghanistan.
She's also from.
Yes.
I also have friends from all over the world.
So that's a project that then sat really close to her heart and you guys.
Absolutely.
And being my friend, obviously it touched my heart.
You know, hearing the stories of the Afghan people.
Yeah, as humans of the world.
You at least we would hope that people would connect on this human level and help each other out.
Exactly.
And even after that project, we also did outside of school.
We raised funds via the Festival Mundial in Tilber for the same foundation.
So, okay, so that project was something that then sat close to your heart,
which also obviously sat very close to the heart of your friend that's also from Afghanistan.
And within that project, you well, that was the example that you use where you really saw that your leadership qualities grew.
Yes.
But then at the same time, you had a teacher that didn't believe in those leadership qualities and sort of was trying to discourage you.
And I think in general, many of us from the dust Caribbean are faced oftentimes with teachers and mentors,
so to speak, that can't fully relate to our experience and our way of life and also our approach to how we do things.
And because they don't fully understand it, they tend to just dismiss it and want to say that it's wrong
because it doesn't fit sort of their regular norms, even though it's just a different approach and maybe a slightly different perspective on things.
So how do you think your Caribbean background, diverse background has then sort of played a role in how you execute those leadership qualities?
Well, I think that's a great question.
But based on what you were just saying, I just want to take it one step back.
Okay.
So that project specifically, what made me realize that it doesn't matter what this one person says about me,
what was my effect on everyone.
And at that time, she said, you know, this person's getting a nine, this person getting nine, this person getting eight,
you're getting a seven because X, Y, Z.
And there were people who actually stood up and said, Vincentia did most of the work.
Vincentia led the team.
We would not have been successful if Vincentia wasn't leading.
The teacher didn't change my grade, but it wasn't about the teacher.
It was about raising the funds for the girls school in Afghanistan and changing the lives of my peers, being a leader.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's actually really interesting because again, this is one of those nuggets where oftentimes we are faced with those type of challenges.
And it's not really the type of challenges that are broadly known because we are also a small minority group.
The fact that because the others that got those grades, they were in your group.
Yeah.
So they all got higher grades than you.
And you being the leader of the group got a lower grade because of whatever reasons and perspective the teacher had.
Yeah.
And at the end of the day, then all of them stood up and not all.
Okay, because that's the thing.
That's the thing with humans, right?
People are often afraid because if you're not a leader, you're afraid to stand up for what's right.
So that to me showed leadership skills in the people that stood up and said, this is not right.
Yeah.
All right. Awesome.
So then let's get back to the other part of the question.
Then how does your Caribbean background diverse influences sort of show up in your leadership skills on a day to day?
That's a great question.
I'm going to do a speak.
Okay.
Can you speak?
No.
You know how you say with technology, is it the fourth revolution?
Yeah, we're now in the fourth industrial revolution.
You say simulate or die.
Innovate or die.
Okay.
You say innovate or die.
So when it comes to being Caribbean and how that influences who I am, I actually been saying for years, assimilate or die.
Assimilate or die.
Yes.
What is assimilate?
Well, it's kind of like adapt.
Okay.
Because I mentioned it earlier, we're chameleons and people misunderstand that they think, oh, in a negative way, this person is pretending to be somebody that they're not in order to be.
In order to make somebody comfortable.
But that's not what it is.
It's at the core.
You keep your core values.
You remain who you are, but you speak with a language, with a tone, with the inclination, with a vibe that then people can resonate to.
Yeah.
So when you go to Barbados, you're different, but you're still the same because then you speak with a Belgian accent.
You go to Dominica.
Yes, we.
Domnition.
Yes, we boy.
Papa met.
You don't know.
So and that's all of who you are because you're this Caribbean person.
You're in the Netherlands and well, you've been living in the Netherlands more than me.
So yeah, then it's good afternoon.
Good day.
Speak with a soft G, a Brabant accent.
Well, then you're the Brabant now.
You've gone crazy, man.
All right, let's get back.
Just one more.
Can you understand me?
A little bit.
So yeah, a simulate or die.
You know how to adjust.
You know how to actually is about connecting with people.
Yeah.
So and I think I think the interesting part of that is is that definitely when when when you're I think even more so when you're from a very hot tourist destination.
So the interaction that you have with so many cultures is is on a constant basis.
And and you sort of learn to speak a more universal language while still being who you are.
Yeah.
So and I mean, shout out to see Martin, because when it comes to that, see Martin is Martin is agreement a crop is epicenter.
And when it comes to that, see Martin is they they know how to simulate.
Yeah, for sure.
So going back to going back to.
So let's fast forward now.
We we we we left the HBO.
And then there's some there's some time in between the moment that you graduate to the moment that you become director of VIP.
Oh, yeah.
So let's let's let's jump into one or two highlights in that period that sort of directed you on that path.
So I came back to see Martin with the intention that, OK, I'll start working and I'm going to do law school online.
Big mistake.
Huge.
In two thousand.
What movie is that from?
Big mistake.
Huge.
I don't know.
Can't remember.
Pretty woman.
I grew up in a house and all these women watching these romcoms all the time.
As soon as I left the house, I was done with your wife.
Your wife doesn't make you watch.
Every now and then I'll join her.
But in general, she'll she'll enjoy.
Well, she watches more the romcom series.
So I don't really get into the series.
That's that's too much of a big.
You know, but she also likes action movies.
That's true.
So that that that's that's what we enjoy together.
That's true. And I am a huge action movie fan.
Thanks to you.
So my husband is very happy about that.
You're welcome, husband.
All right. So grad graduated in 2007.
And so where are we now?
Yeah, you know, I've actually encountered a few young professionals, young Caribbean professionals who have gone on the journey of they were educated with their bachelors and they're trying to do this online school in order for them to still be there for their families.
And that's where the huge mistake comes in.
Because as Caribbean people, we don't learn to set boundaries.
I mean, now it's different, you know, with the Gen Z's and the and the Alphas.
They are setting boundaries from very early on.
Yeah.
But then again, their education is different, right?
Because they get so much more true to technology.
That's already sort of shape in.
They're getting the truth.
We it was hidden from us.
We have to discover the truth as adults.
Now we know we can set boundaries.
Yeah, or actually, you know, again, bring God into the conversation being brought up as, you know, a Caribbean person in the 90s, the early 2000s.
You were still taught that being a Christian meant that you sacrifice of yourself.
Right. So it's like, OK, this class is half full.
I'll give you some out of it.
And then Ian Levine said on the Oprah show, what's in the cup is mine.
What flows out of the cup is for you.
And I want to add to that because I can choose who I'm giving my overflow to.
Yeah.
That's that's setting boundaries.
So that's really important.
Yeah. And and and and during during those times, perhaps those boundaries weren't set as much.
Oh, definitely not. And that affected the studies.
And the and the cup was becoming empty rather than.
Yeah, definitely. And and that definitely led to a much longer journey for me to, you know, obtain that goal.
What I had set. Yeah.
So where where where where did the turning point happen?
Oh, there were several turning points.
The first one being, ha, that's a good question.
You take me. The first one being when I had my daughter.
OK. And it was about five years, almost five years after it was almost five years after moving back to St.
Martin, and I wouldn't go as far as saying that I had like postpartum depression.
But I definitely was not happy with where I was in my life because I felt that this dream that I had,
this eight year old girl was not achieving her dream.
And what was the reason?
And at the end of the day, I had to be accountable for that, because if somebody calls you and say, hey,
pick up my kid, hey, feed my kid, hey, do this, hey, do that.
You're the one that has to say no. Yeah.
If someone says, hey, give me money, you're the one that has to say no.
And at that time, you introduced me to Tony Robbins and the secret.
Oh, yeah. You remember back then, 2012 secret was the hot topic.
It was all the rage.
And the funny thing about the secret, OK, I did look it up prior because I don't quote scripture on a regular basis.
The secret is about the law of attraction, right? Yeah.
And if you look in the Bible, everywhere, there's different parts of the Bible that talks about asking you shall receive.
So, and I looked it up today. Matthew, ask and it will be given to you.
Seek and you will find knock and the door will be open to you for everyone who asks receives and the one who seeks finds and to the one who knocks.
The door will be opened. Which one of you would hand his son a stone when he asked for a loaf of bread or a snake when he asked for a fish?
If you then who are wicked know how to give good gifts to your children, how much will your heavenly father give good things to those who ask him?
And the changing point with the secret and the law of attraction was realizing that I deserve to ask.
And I deserve to have. Yeah. And that is when the change started happening.
And within a year after, then I was able to ask for the job that I want for the pay that I want.
I worked for a year and a half in the Cabinet of Finance. I mean, I had the education to do it. Yeah. Right.
But it wasn't I wasn't asking. Yeah. And you need to go out there and get it. You need to go out there and get it.
And that's all of those listening at home. You you can get all the education. You can get all the training.
You can have all the credentials. But at the end of the day, you have to go out there and fight for it. You have to ask for what you for what you deserve.
Yeah. And I was so stuck on wanting to get that law degree that I was actually denying the other talents that God had given me.
And that kind of brings me to Matthew twenty five. And that's a really important one.
There are two parables in Matthew twenty five. But the one that I'm talking about is the one with the talents.
And this one I'll summarize because it is a lot longer parable. But basically, a master had three servants. Yeah.
And to one servant, he gave one talent to the second servant. He gave two talents. And to the third servant, he gave five talents.
When he came back from his journey, the one who he had given five talents to had said, Master, you have given me five talents and I have created five more.
And the master said, Good job. You have a seat at my table. You will be given more.
The one who got two talents came back and said, Master, you gave me two. I made two more. He said, Good job. You have a seat at my table.
So both of them doubled up the talent. They double up their talents. And then the third one, he said, Master, you gave me one talent, but I know that you did not that you reap where you do not sow and you plant where you do not scatter seeds or something like that.
I'm not reading it word for word.
Paraphrasing here. Paraphrasing. God, sorry. And the master was like, you fool.
And basically, that servant was thrown into the dungeons and given nothing.
And if you look at it, right, I was wasting my talents because as director of the Bureau, law is a part of it, but it's not the only part of it.
I have to be able to connect with people. So the management part, the management part, I have to be able to where the business administration came in nicely.
Oh, the business admin. Yeah, the management part. Definitely. Because with that study was like human resource management, business management, change management, you know, organizational changes like you name it.
All kind of things under the umbrella management, economics, I mean, business economics, accounting, you name it. Like you have to be able to prepare financial statements and prepare budgets and you have to defend them and you have to know the numbers you're talking about.
And for those who don't know, probably everybody does know four of our sisters are accountants. So and our parents are really good in numbers.
So it was something that and I mean, I think all of us are good in maps. Yeah. Some better than others. But all of us are really good in maps. And it was something that was just like my natural born talent to be good in numbers.
Yeah, but I was so focused on I had to be this. You're so focused on the plan. Yeah, which the plan was sort of one dimensional. Yeah, because because it's very focused. Yes. But you weren't you you didn't open up the peripheral vision to also allow all the other blessings in to color in the plan in a more elaborate form.
And thankfully, God did not throw me into the dungeon like that servant who buried his one talent.
He gave me more than one talent. And now I can say that with confidence, not with cockiness, I could say it with humility, I can say it with with pride that God has blessed me with so many talents, and I am at the point in my life where I am ready to multiply them.
Awesome.
So, at this point in the journey, you, you started asking for what you actually wanted you started accepting that your other talents are also important to your purpose to your purpose.
You started to embrace those other talents as well. And now we're sort of at the at the dawn at the forefront of transition and into into the director position.
Now earlier you mentioned, well actually off camera we just spoke about of sort of letting go of the plan. Yeah, what? Yeah, what does that mean letting go of the plan.
That was a long process but I hope for our younger viewers.
You know, God gives us grace, and in the process where I was so focused on achieving that one talent and I was chasing that one talent. But in the meantime, he didn't take away my other talents, he gave me the grace and allowed me to still develop them and continue with them.
He put obstacles in my way, jobs in my way that forcefully, including the director of BIP, where I am, have been the director, the sweeper, the liaison, everything in between.
So, you know, it's, it's not all glitz and glans. Being a director of a small entity means that you have to, and especially, I'm the first director of the Bureau for intellectual property, St. Martin.
Prior to that intellectual property rights were managed in Curacao. Yeah, there was no branch office in St. Martin. And that's because of the 2010 split when exactly when the Netherlands Antilles were decommissioned is the right word I'm not sure but when the
Antilles were no more and St. Martin went on to become status apart as well as Curacao. Many of those offices including the Bureau of intellectual property were based in Curacao along with others.
And then overnight. It was all gone and has to be established on island. Yes, and well luckily for the Bureau for intellectual property, what they put quickly at fortnight was a provision in the law that five years after 10 10 10, the Bureau for intellectual property
had to be established. Okay, so in the meantime, then you would still go to Curacao. Yes. Okay. So from 10 10 10 until the first of October, 2015, it was via Curacao. Okay.
I started working as interim director at the end of 2014, and started with the setup on and well, when I say, blood sweat and tears to set something up, and I consider myself an entrepreneur, even though you know it doesn't belong to me.
It's a public entity that I'm managing. Don't this is something like an employerpreneur or entrepreneur.
I'll put it up and put it right here below. Put it in, but I can, I think what I said at one of the workshops back in 2015 or 2016.
A workshop with if I believe it was dominate 360. One of them. Yes, I said I said you have to have an entrepreneurial state of mind.
Otherwise, you're not going to survive. Yeah. So this whole nine to five attitude. Yeah, that's not going to get the job done. You have to be a jack of all trades. Because what I've reached now, the level that I've reached that is I can.
Oh, that comes nice back to the plan. One of those Instagram scenes. You heard it. Which one? The one that the same is a jack of all trades is a master of none. Yeah. But then they say that's part of the quote.
The other half of the quote is a jack of all trades is a master of none, but always better than a master of one. Yes. So the one the one plan had you primarily only focus on law.
But then actually all those other talents makes it the perfect fit for what you do. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's and I think one of the questions earlier, you were like, okay, so then you got to the director of BIP, right?
And then afterwards, like you had that figured out. No, let me reel it back. I figured that out. Walt's being director of BIP because remember, I became director of BIP officially at 29 years old.
I started at 28 as interim director at 29 officially. And in the process, I learned that, you know, give myself grace. Yeah. Yeah.
All right. Awesome. So in those eight years as is eight, nine? Officially. Almost nine. Almost eight officially as director. Yeah. Since working then. Oh, working is almost nine. Almost nine. Yeah. So almost a decade now of experience.
Yeah. And you're making me sound old. Well, I mean, we are getting old. I got way more grades, but I don't have grades. I got silver like my grandmother.
According to most people, I got salt and pepper. So it's all good. Okay. So now in that past decade, pretty much. Right. And then bringing it back to what you said that you really understood then in the HBO experience of the leadership qualities.
Obviously, as a director, you need to have leadership qualities in order to succeed. And well, I think we can say with 10 years experience and doing it successfully, then you have succeeded at leadership.
Only compliments on camera.
I'm still the bro, you know. So in those 10 years, what would then some of the key highlights of where leadership really needed to take the front seat in making tough decisions or change of strategy, etc.
Give us some examples. That's a good question. You know, because when you go to school, you learn how to learn. Yeah.
What I think a lot of millennials have made the mistake was like, I'm educated and I need to get the job. Yeah. Like you have the education, you don't yet have the experience.
Pace yourself. Yeah. You know, there's a lot more to come. Yeah. If you don't pace yourself, burnout burnout. Yep. And it's real. You know, and as Caribbean people on a side note, we're thought, ah, that's a white people thing.
Right. No offense to the white people that are watching. No offense. But I mean, you want to be introduced to our culture. This is some of the things of our culture and the stigmas that we need to let go of.
It's like, oh, mental health. That's a white people thing. And still in the Caribbean, that is how it's being talked about. But I see more and more millennials and Gen Z's, right? They are starting the conversation and they are saying, no, this is a humankind problem.
Yeah. You know, so that's really, really important. And that is the shift that's been happening and that's been allowing us also to like find our voice and step out of that upbringing of endure. Yeah.
And if I could add to that, how I've seen that evolve, I think in general, hailing from the Caribbean, especially the Dutch Caribbean, because at least in the larger English islands, you have the university education systems in place.
And we don't have those high level education systems fully in place in the Dutch Caribbean. So Curacao does have a few subjects, a few courses that you can follow and achieve a bachelor, I believe here in St. Martin as well.
There's a few Aruba as well. There's a few. But the plethora and diversity, it's minimal. So in general, we're just, we have to fly, go abroad to get that higher education.
There you're faced with certain amount of culture shocks. You're also faced with mentors and teachers that wouldn't fully understanding graphs, your perspective and your background. So we deal with, and there's a couple other things that we can mention.
Let's say light form of discrimination, etc. That these are different things that we're faced with and have to deal with, which also toughens up our skin to be able to deal with more challenges.
So I think in general, also where part of that comes from is that in general, we have to sort of deal with more. So we are also capable of dealing with more. But then the world has also tremendously sped up in all of what we have to deal with as humans in general.
And the technology that's been moving fast forward over all mankind, that now it's starting to hit us also as being too much.
Because all of the stuff that we have to deal with just on a regular basis as with our background and then on top of that, all of the extra that comes with it is then starting to make, well, I guess, I guess this cup, the water is evaporating.
Yeah, that would be the, yeah, it ain't overflowing. It ain't overflowing. Yeah.
How has your leadership skills come into fruition then into you executing on them in over the past decade as a director of BIP?
Well, one of our sisters, I won't call the name because, you know, then they will say, oh, you want to call my name and you ain't call other name?
I know that one's your favorite. We don't want to fire you. We don't want to fire you.
Don't be jealous. Okay. All right. So one of my sisters, you know who, gave me a book by John C. Maxwell. John, hey, how successful people lead.
She actually gave me two books, How Successful People Lead and How Successful People Think.
And there's like this five tier system that he developed in how successful people lead and number one being position. People follow you because they have to. You have the position.
I'm director, right? You're working for me. You have to follow me. But people follow you secondly because of permission and permission has to do with the relationship.
So people follow you because they want to. Yeah. Which is way more powerful than just you being in position and they have to follow you. Exactly.
So then you're on level two with them. Level three is production. People follow you because of the results that you've been able to achieve for the organization.
I mean, BIP has clean audits, approved budgets, approved financial statements. It's public on our website.
We work together with the Benelux Office of Intellectual Property. We have a good relationship with the Netherlands.
We have a good relationship with the other islands in the Caribbean, other IPOs in the Caribbean.
We're a member of the Intellectual Property Caribbean Association. So results, right? Yeah. People see the results.
And then let's also talk about the results of the awareness, because that's one of the things that I believe you guys have done really well. Thank you.
Is creating a lot of awareness around the topic of intellectual property, because in the Caribbean in general, I remember growing up when I was doing music, etc.
The plagiarism that it has happened many times that artists music would get copied outside and they actually can't do much about it because they haven't done their due diligence to copyright their music, etc.
Because a lot of these things were a bit unknown or people didn't understand what were the steps that you go.
And that's one of the things that you guys continue to do is create a lot of public awareness around the topic.
And music is one of the examples that we as Caribbean people can all relate to and understand immediately. But it goes way beyond that as well.
Oh, thank you. I mean, kind of that kind of takes me a little bit on a side tangent. So the Bureau for intellectual property, since we are independent governing body, we're a public entity.
We're here to serve. So I can't advise you on what is the best way to protect your intellectual property, but I can provide you with as much information as possible to get you to think and act.
And that's the difference in what we're doing, not just giving you information because it could fill you up with information, but the information has to be presented in such a way that you think and you act.
And that's what we've done with our SIPA. So communication and IP awareness, which is our sub brand of the best exam.
Before we were told by our stakeholders, you need to come up with a marketing plan. And we're like, yeah, but we not selling soda. We not selling hair products. We can't.
And we have to remain neutral. Yeah. And that's where SIPA was born. Okay. And that's one of the innovative things that we've done at the Bureau.
You know, we're one of the first in the region that has an online register. We're one of the first in the region that is active on social media that has given workshops on behalf of other countries.
The Netherlands asked us to give workshops and Bonaire and Stacia. So definitely collaboration is key. Awareness is key. And just pushing the envelope, seeing where you can stay within the legal parameters, but get people to act.
Yeah. Yeah. So that's with the production, right? Thank you for bringing up awareness. I get totally.
Because I was like, this was all sounding more like compliance. Where is the part where we connect with the people? Yeah. I mean, that part is recently we had Island Frenuer here at Where Are We Now? Yeah.
And right here at Simpson Bay Resort, right? Right here in this room. And you wouldn't believe it, but talking about Kareemian and Chameleon, I thought the energy from Ife Batajou and from Leslie Samuel, St. Martin born, right? Yeah.
They had so much energy that I was like, okay, I have my story. It's a great story. It's interesting. I have my slides. I can talk about that. But how do I connect with the people? How do I show?
How do you jump on that frequency of energy that was in the room? Yeah, because the energy in the room was high. So yeah, well, those two bring the energy. They brought the energy with Leslie Samuel, but transferred.
So I thought, okay, what can I do that's different? So I stepped completely out of my comfort zone and I sang a little bit from Sister Act 2. You know Sister Act 2? When they're in the classroom. Yeah.
Well, now you'll have to sing it for the people because they're going to want to know. I was so embarrassed because I said, oh, you know, I'm going to sing a little bit for you. And then everybody in the crowd. No one is watching right now.
Oh snap. I put everything on airplane mode.
So the first was position. So these are like the five P's. The five P's, but they're the five P's and the five R's. So if you notice, I know with everything I said R, position is the rights.
So, you know, I have the positions, you're following me because of the position. Because, you know, that's my right. The second permission. Permission, that's relationship. You're following me because you want to. The third is production because the results that I've produced and you mentioned the awareness.
Yeah. The fourth is people development, reproduction. At that point, you are developing people to become their leaders in their own right. Yeah.
And at five is the pinnacle, the respect.
So at five, at five, you are developing up to level four leaders. Important to know in the leadership. And I mean, the book talks about it is you can be at a level four with someone, but something can happen that can put you back at a one.
And one thing in the journey of leadership is don't be afraid to let go.
Yeah.
So, I mean, we talked about letting go to plan. It's not necessarily letting go to plan, but it's accepting the journey. Yeah.
And the same thing with the levels of leadership.
Because accepting the journey, accepting the journey means that the plan you make a plan with all the information you have at that time. And then as you go on the journey, you gather more information, more experience, more elements that sort of color your overall life, knowledge, wisdom.
So therefore, the plan has to the plan has to be fluid. It has to be agile. It has to be able to evolve with you on the journey. Yeah.
Be flexible, be open, have grace, evolve, innovate, or die.
That's me like pretend you know pretending like your voice. Okay.
That's what I was I was assimilating. So the pinnacle what what was the R in the pinnacle?
Respect. Respect. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Nice. And at that point, you're developing level four leaders.
And if you are working with people that are not able to get up to the level three at minimum, then they are not meant to continue on the journey with you. Yeah.
They have to be able to at least grow to the level three. Yeah, to be able to produce and yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
If they if they are not able to reach the level three, and they're stuck on like, you know, a level two. Yeah. Then it's a it's time is always interesting these different frameworks and different theories.
So I have one that actually sort of helps color this in.
It's I forgot the guy's name, but it was when I was at Web Summit in Portugal a few years back.
It's entrepreneur entrepreneur from his background is from Southeast Asia, but he lived in Silicon Valley for some while had different startup, etc.
But essentially, it's a diagram that and I guess, editor, you can go ahead and create the diagram right now.
So on the top right, we have A players.
The top left, we have B players bottom right, we have C players and bottom left, we have D players. So we have two accesses and on one access, it's about it's about the skills and experience.
And on the other access.
It's about the trust, the trust and and and the values that because if if if you share the right values with the company, then you you can also build the right type of trust within the environment of the company.
But if your values don't really match up with the company, then the trust that is needed to grow within that company will never sort of really fully match up.
So when when people score high on the value side, they'll either be a B or a player, and they'll be a B player when their experience and skills is not fully where it needs to be.
But that's something that they can develop with training, but it's a lot more difficult to develop values and trust with training that that sort of has to be already a natural fit.
That's right. Otherwise, it's not going to quite work.
So a B player can turn into a A player.
But a C player is very difficult for them to move up and become an A player. And people that don't share your values and and don't have the skills and experience, or because they don't share the values and and and the trust is not there.
And they themselves are blocking themselves from utilizing their skills in the best way possible. They're essentially B players and B players have no place on the team.
Then you have a failing squad. So how are you going to win championships with a bunch of B players? Yeah, failing squad.
No reference to any superhero movies.
So any any final thoughts, final words for for the folks out there on on let's let's let's let's say you go with a top three or top one key advice for young ladies out there right now between 18 to 25 in school or or even up till 30 when they're first start in their career
and and and and have this very stringent plan in their minds, but life is showing all type of bricks and oranges and apples their way.
And they don't know how to deal with it. How how do how do you what advice do you have final thoughts to get them over that hump?
And you're checking your notes. You see this is this is this is classic Vincent here.
You see like now you're making extra extra prepared.
Extra prepared like full homework.
I'm making me nervous. I'm like, what did I want to say?
I don't remember. Oh, it was right in front of me. Oh, yeah. You see.
See that it's always right in front of you.
It's not always right in front of you.
Okay. All right. All right.
So since we are on the topic of leadership last month, one of my team members at the BIP SXM, they shared a post with me on LinkedIn.
And the post was a diagram on leadership versus management.
And there is a huge circle of management, but there is even a bigger circle of leadership because management is a part of leadership.
Yeah. But and leadership cannot exist without management.
Yeah. However, leadership is a level.
Right. Right. And management would be more be more B level.
I would I would almost say more C level. Yeah.
Because when it when it comes down to it, I believe the leadership part really ties into the values and the trust.
Yeah. Because if if if your people don't trust you to lead them. Yeah.
And and they don't value what you value and what the company values, then you're not moving in that direction together.
And management can be sort of taught. Well, these are the things that you do within management. Yes. So you can have the skills.
So. So a manager can grow into a leader manager. Yeah.
If they also possess those other parts and then they would be more a but then if they don't possess those values and and and and and that trust dynamic with the people that they're managing, then they're not leading them.
And essentially, then they're just executing management tasks. So makes them a C player.
That that is well said. Bravo. I'm going to.
Cue the clap. Awesome. Well, I I I'm also talking from a little bit of experience over the past couple of years, definitely in the past almost five years of doing a corporate high level corporate consultancy.
I've seen it firsthand. The difference between managers that can lead and those that just manage. Yeah.
And I think, you know, leadership skills is something that you are born with. Yeah. But you have to develop it. Yeah. It's some it's something you have to develop. But the talents are there. Yeah. But it's do you bury them or do you let them multiply them?
Multiply them. So leave the sunshine on them. Walk them leave them grow sunshine made me think of a Caribbean song with sunshine, but you know, no copyright infringement. All right.
So when that employee came to me and and and share that post with me, it made me feel grateful. It made me feel humble, because I was like, Wow, you know, I've been trying to achieve this and to hear employees, past employees come back to me, or even when I give a workshop
that people tell me that what I did it touch them that it made them spur into action. It really made me feel it makes me feel like okay, I am achieving my purpose. And that brings me to the last point of Yes, I am looking at my notes.
Oprah said to her friend Maya Angelou that her legacy was a school that she built in South Africa. And Maya Angelou said in her classic Maya Angelou voice, which I can't do, or I'll try to mock Oprah mocking Maya Angelou, your legacy is every life you've touched.
And that helped me further define my purpose that my purpose is to be of service to others to help change lives through leadership. Awesome. I think that's a perfect note for us to end on.
So, Vincentia Rose Sandiford. Yes, John Sandiford. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So John Sandiford, the jam is Antonio Marcellus. Okay, John Antonio Marcellus Sandiford.
All right, Junior. You told me not to call me that. I know. I know. Anyways, I added it. Whatever. Thank you very, very much for making the time in your busy director schedule for your awesome brother.
So with that being said, thank you guys very much. If you would like to see more of these type of interviews, then we gladly appreciate and accept your support. So please like, comment and subscribe to the channel.
Drop us a comment and let me know some of the questions that you might have missed that you would have loved for me to ask and who knows I might catch it on the flip side. So, signing out from the sunny side of the kingdom.
This beautiful view over here can be yours as well. We're in sunshine, sunshine city St. Martin. And right now at the Simpson Bay Resort and Spa Center. Am I saying that right? All right. I looked over to, may I say your name?
All right, Bri that has been helping us set this whole thing up today. She's done an amazing job and given us the opportunity to make another awesome podcast for you guys in a beautiful location on the sunny side of the kingdom.
So it's a place where we highlight those Dutch Caribbean role models. Thank you very much for tuning in. I'll see you in the next one.
Bless.