Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education
teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything
communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson
ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged
4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in
the field answering your questions and sharing
our knowledge and experience working alongside
our beautiful young people. Let's get started.
Hello everybody and welcome to the Sensory Classroom
podcast. My name is Jordan and today I am joined
by Celeste from Root, Rise and Learn. She is
a mum to two neurodivergent children, home educator,
formerly teacher and now a movement therapist
specialised in sensory integration. So, so much
to cover today when we talk about the waiting
time between diagnosis and what you can do in
that time, whether you're a teacher or a parent.
Hi Celeste. Good morning. How are you this morning?
I'm really well and I'm really excited to talk
to you today. I'm a big super fan of sensory
classroom. I'm a huge super fan of sensory integration
so I feel like we've got a lot to talk about
today. We're friends. Shall we talk a little
bit about discussing how the hell you wear all
of these hats and how that came to be? Yes. So,
I mean, basically, it's kind of my life story
has all converged into me finally making the
world a better place. So I am a mum, let's start
there, of two amazing, highly neurodiverse kiddos.
We are so all over the diagnostic map. We have
all the HD in the house. We are dealing with
ARFID, Tourette's, OCD. Sensory processing disorder,
auditory processing disorder, speech and language
delay. So I've been in every possible therapy,
every medical setting. We also have some medical
issues. So yeah, I mean, my experience with my
kiddos, I also have ADHD. Did you find out that
after parenting or did you already know that?
That's late diagnosed. I wasn't massively surprised,
to be honest. Yeah, yeah. out of that process
with my kids as well and great it's great we're
we're living the fully neurodiverse life here
and because of my kiddos needs and kind of the
timing that it all lined up kind of during the
covid season is that when we came to making educational
choices i as also being a former teacher and
actually my very first job was in a in a school
for children with very extreme disabilities and
send needs. So that was my very first job straight
out of the gate was supporting a music therapist
in that setting. So I went right in the deep
end. But I taught Key Stage 1 for quite a long
time in mainstream. So when I came to making
decisions for my own kids, I've kind of been
behind the scenes and My son was maybe four or
five during COVID, and it was kind of a no -brainer
that we would start out home educating. And it
has been just the best decision that I think
we possibly could have made for them and for
our whole family dynamic. Their development,
their mental health and well -being, their overall
well -being as a child, just the fact that they
can take their time. and the benefit that it's
been to our attachment as well has been fantastic
but yeah so that's how I became a mom educate
home educator but most recently my journey now
into being on the other side of the desk from
where I would sit as a parent as a movement therapist
it was kind of natural to be honest because we
and I know we're going to talk about this a lot
today waited and waited and waited for occupational
therapy, for sensory diets. And it got to a point
where I just became really impatient with it
and said, well, you know, my poor kiddo is sitting
here. Their needs don't change. Their needs don't
pause. They will just actually get harder to
deal with as they grow. And especially if they're
not met. And I was noticing my son started to
kind of maladapt to certain things. And I was
like, nope. I've got to do something. What can
I do? What do you mean by that maladapt? So maladaptation,
you know, kids are built to survive. They're
built to cope and they will try to cope with
whatever skill they have at that time. And so
for him, you know, in the sensory environment,
his way of dealing with an extreme noise sensitivity
at the time was to be louder than the noise.
And I think that is quite common. Yes. And he
was, you know, he was very little at the time.
But I noticed... the change pretty quickly from,
you know, guarding against the noise to making,
just start to scream and, you know, bang on things.
And I thought, hang on, that's really distressing
behavior for you because I can see his little
body was really struggling through it. And I
was offering all the things, you know, have some
ear defenders, have this, have that. And for
him at that time, that was the only way that
he could in his nervous system cope with that.
So I did the thing that all moms do, parents
do when you are either waiting for a diagnosis
and, you know, there's very little steer. I make
a bit of a joke of it on my Instagram account
and I film some skits to tell my story because
some of the most ridiculous things that I've
heard in a GP's office or, you know, waiting
for SLT or trying to explain to an OT what. is
happening at home but yeah I've just been waiting
a really long time and I thought I'm going to
start reading and as I read I thought well I
can try and apply some of these things and that
led me down a path of maybe I should retrain
seeing as I've read all of the books on the shelf
and luckily I was working with a play therapist
for both my kids at the time and she was so excited
about me you know possibly retraining and she
you know helped me find some courses some training
pathways and that kind of led me to this amazing
therapy the neurodevelopmental movement therapy
which includes reflex integration and sensory
mapping all of that as part of it and I qualified
last year and I'm so happy that I've done that
the work that I've done with my own kids has
been really transformative for them and I'm a
little bit more about what movement therapy is
and entails and includes because I don't know
I don't know if many people have heard of it.
I don't know exactly what it entails. What makes
movement therapy different? Why is it different?
That's a really good question. So I think everyone
would be familiar if I said occupational therapy.
Everyone would kind of know loosely what that
looks like. So movement therapy is part of occupational
therapy. It would be almost like an additional
qualification that an occupational therapist
would do. if they wanted to support a child on
a more foundational level. I think it's very
popular in Europe. It's probably one of the first
therapies that you'd be offered if you, for example,
had a diagnosis in Denmark. And that is exactly
where the therapy comes from. It was pioneered
in Denmark. If you're interested by a doctor
called Harold Blomberg, you can see his book
right here, actually, in my little blue book.
movements that heal. That was actually one of
the first books that I read when I was kind of
suspicious that we may have all the HD in the
house. But since the 70s, it's really gained
a lot of traction. There's a lot of really good
research with regards to how it positively impacts
the nervous system. But what it is, is it starts
with attachment. So whoever the patient is, and
that for me is usually the child, being that
that's... kind of my bag. I've got kids, I've
worked with kids, I understand how to approach
children. But it's also being applied quite widely
with early onset dementia or kind of adult neurological
disorders like Parkinson's. Actually, I've been
helping my lovely dad who's got early stage Parkinson's
and it's been really helpful for him for neurological
pain. But back to kids. So it starts with, let's
say, the child. And then you would need the parent
caregiver, the safe adult, that could also be
a teacher or a TA if it's being applied in the
classroom, present, and then the therapist. And
what it basically is, it's a range of very, it
starts with innate rhythmic movements. So those
are very simple, very... small quite relaxed
calming movements they're very easy to embed
in play and they're actually fantastic for kind
of a bedtime routine because most of them are
done lying down if you think about the movements
that a baby would make when they're just starting
to move their body there's a lot of rocking a
lot of rolling very gentle but very rhythmic
movements and we can sing together We can breathe
together. You can use gentle tapping. And what
that basically does is it causes the nervous
system to come into repose. So you are down -regulating.
The blood pressure drops. The body relaxes. And
you're starting to access a part of the brain
at the back called the cerebellum, which is responsible
for most function. And it's kind of the gatekeeper
between the kind of infant brain, the limbic
brain. the lizard brain that people call it sometimes,
and the cortex, the higher function here. Everything
has to wire up that way from the spine. And what
it does, it accesses that quite infantile part
of the brain. And especially in a neurodiverse
brain, it allows the neurological connections
that were made in early life to just revisit
how they're wired. So that can mean that any
connections that weren't made Because of, you
know, I don't know, birth trauma or infant illness
or... Yes. So it's really prevalent in neurodivergence
actually just because of the way the neurology
forms. And that's because, I mean, there's so
much research about this. It'd be very easy to
look it up yourself on Google. But autism, neurodivergence
of any sort, is a neurological difference. Neurodivergence.
The actual connection in the brain forms at a
slower pace. The synapses, which is where the
electricity fires between two different parts
of that connection, forms at a slower pace. And
sometimes it forms multiple connections. And
what would normally happen in an holistic body,
a non -neurodiverse body, is that those connections,
when they're unused, would die off. They would...
stripped back they would prune that's the word
that people use so that's one reason why i called
my therapy root rise and learn that's my little
practice name because an autistic brain does
look like roots um you know for example let's
say i want to stand up very simple signal that
signal might have to go from here to here to
get to my legs but in a child with any sort of
neurological difference that signal may get to
here but then fire in six different directions
because the brain hasn't been able to get past
this blockage for many reasons, and it hasn't
been able to prune off all the other pathways.
So for it to get from here to here takes a lot
more time and effort, and sometimes it misfires.
And that's why often with neurodivergence, we
see a lot of gross motor issues. That's kind
of the first big flag is, oh, they didn't crawl
for a very long time, or they didn't walk, or
they skipped crawling. and just stood up. Or
in later life, postural issues and then fine
motor issues. Obviously, if gross motor issues
struggle, fine motor issues absolutely will be
problematic. So what this therapy does is it
targets that one pathway. We take it right back
to the earliest kind of developmental stage that
we can find. And we then send positive input,
positive sensory input in the right direction,
repetitively. So it's basically almost like a
manual reset for some of the neurology in the
brain. And I can say in my own kids who had,
I mean, even three or four years ago, and I did
their sensory profiles myself, very serious sensory
issues, very serious. You know, we had a full
-on ARFID diagnosis. My daughter was functionally
deaf in a room where there were more than two
people. Extreme tactile issues. Noise sensitivity,
the whole bag. You know, it has taken time. But
now, you know, my son's eating has come on so
much. We are now borderline. Are we still ARFID?
Are we not? My daughter's auditory processing
is still auditory processing disorder. However,
her adaptation in an environment is a lot more
comfortable and I guess more natural. And I can
see also gross motor skills have come on so,
so far. We had a lot of cross -body issues, couldn't
catch. And, you know, to the extent where if
I put a ball anywhere near either of my children,
they'd freak out. But now, you know, and it wasn't
that we were practicing catching. We were doing
these little exercises together, reflex integration
exercises for probably about a period of 18 months.
And now, you know, my son's joining a football
camp next week. So I've seen the positives out
of this. But I think the biggest positive actually
is in our relationship because like, well, many
other therapies, it relies on that sense of security
between the child and whoever's doing the therapy.
And I think this works so well in the home and
with families because of exactly that. Like it
relies on that safe person. And I would much
rather give parents the tools to do this safely.
parents, caregivers, teachers, you know, wherever
child is spending the majority of their time,
to do this safely, to build attachments. Because
I think a healthy attachment, you can do anything
with that. A healthy attachment and a regulated
child and the world's your oyster, right? Yeah.
And it sounds errorless to me. So in that mind,
they can't fail at it. Therefore, it's boosting
that confidence, building that trust and that
loyalty. Is the... impact of movement because
it is very movement based it was also impacting
so many other areas of the sensory system is
that because the nervous system as a whole is
more grounded and rooted therefore they can cope
with other things or is it more than that what
does the evidence show in that respect it's probably
a bit of both I think when a child is really
well regulated, it's almost like all the lights
are green and they're much more receptive. So
I think, you know, that's why I do advocate for
it being starting with attachment. And, you know,
we call it heart connection because if we can
turn the lights green, then you can really see,
okay. where what's what's actually happening
in the child at this point in time but the science
is I mean it's fascinating and I'm still learning
as I as I go and reading and there's more research
coming out every every couple of weeks at the
moment this is a really popular therapy in America
at the moment and actually I think probably people
will have seen stuff pop up online which I'd
like to talk about they might have seen kind
of The moro reflex seems to be quite fashionable
at the moment. And there's people kind of throwing
kids over balls. Don't do that. Don't do that.
But, you know, that might ring bells. But the
research is really interesting. So my kind of
current rabbit hole of scientific exploration
is the connection between the neurology of the
hand and of the mouse in the sensory motor. function
of of the kind of oral sensory area and that's
been interesting for me because my little girl
has a speech and language delay she's a gestalt
processor it's so much fun some of the things
that she comes out with love it but you know
she had a lot of kind of oral motory issue oral
motor issues just with the formation of words
and we spent so much time in SLT we had a lovely
SLT But it wasn't really until I really started
kind of putting these two things together because
of my training that I started gaining traction.
And it all, just to briefly go into the science,
starts in early infancy. So one of the reflexes,
it's called Palmar -Babkin reflex and the grasp
reflex. So if you've ever been near a newborn,
they will hold on to anything that you put in
their palm. And if they're stimulated anywhere
near their palm, they will try and grasp. And
that's really critical because their instinct
is my caregiver is trying to feed me. So I will
close my hand and open my mouth. And there is
a, you know, the neurology all flows through
the same kind of port here at the back of the
neck in the cerebellum. Now, there's also research
to say that particularly with autism spectrum.
that there is a developmental delay in the biology
of the cerebellum. So, you know, both my kids
had feeding issues when they were very little.
I think it's not when I talk to parents on the
podcast that that is so often a missed but early
sign when they look back. Oh, of course they
had apraxia. Of course they were going to be
non -speaking or pre -verbal. We could see those
oral motor challenges right from the start. Yeah,
absolutely. So, I mean, the way that these reflexes
work, they really do impact this. And they also
impact auditory processing. Because depending
on how much your infant struggles with feeding
in those early days, it depends on how, you know,
it will affect how their head is placed, which
ear is open to the environment and needs to be
processed through. And are they receiving...
feeding on one side versus the other side or
you know my son for example would only feed sitting
up so it's a completely different sensory input
that they're getting and the amount that a baby
feeds right that's a constant affirmation of
that sensory pathway in one way or another So
when we started with my daughter working on her
palmar reflex, and yes, there were lots of kind
of paper scrunching exercises and lots of, you
know, gentle circle drawing and trying to, you
know, isolate fingers and gripping things as
tightly as we could. Interestingly, I have a
little video of her, which I'm kind of dubious
to share because I'm really worried about sharing
kids on the internet. Maybe I'll act it out.
Maybe I'll do that. I'll turn it into a skit.
But when we started at the very start of me applying
this with my own kiddos, when she scrunched anything
up, the reflex to open her mouth and stick her
tongue out was so strong that she actually had
to stop and she said out because it was such
a strong reflex. And, you know, I could see it
kind of gradually integrating and becoming less
prevalent. We had so much fun. It's so easy to
embed this in play. It's so easy to embed this
in play. We were dragons, you know, scrunching
and exhaling and shouting. And we learned about
the Maori. So we were doing lots of kind of facial
exercises. But yes, I mean, it's such a great
therapy to use at home, especially if you home
educate, because your connection with your kids
is, well, it never stops, really. Yeah, absolutely.
And then you mentioned that the big... beginning
when you were explaining about it that it's with
the supporting adult and the therapist is that
always how it's done or eventually can the safe
adult the supporting adult learn enough from
the therapist that they could do it one -to -one
with the child how does that transition work
yeah so I think I was thinking through this as
a parent to highly sensitive kids If I introduced
a random stranger into the house, nothing's going
to happen. It's not a positive experience. So
I think what I would suggest now, and this is
kind of against how it would be practiced in
the field, is to actually work directly with
the parent or caregiver first. Okay. And for
them to then try and apply it at home. You know,
we can use other checks and balances. Can you...
film what happens can you explain what happens
can you record and let's listen back be really
observant I'm a huge advocate for kind of Montessori
style observation I think knowing the child is
so important and watching for the smallest signals
little twitch here are they holding their breath
are they tensing what's tensing is it the big
toe just the big toe or is it the whole foot
the whole leg you know very in -depth observation
and then what I think it's best to be done parent
to child or caregiver to child and then if you
know at some point they feel comfortable to have
me in the room or even on on a zoom chat in the
corner i can observe and help that way but i
mean really like you said it is errorless you
know you you can't injure a child with the very
gentle motion and a very strong relational connection
which is why When I see kind of these, you know,
one minute Instagram reel therapy suggestions,
quick fix suggestions popping up and, you know,
children are being thrown over peanut balls or
spun around really fast and you can integrate
their reflex by doing this a thousand times.
Don't do that to a child. Don't. It's a very
gentle exercise, has to be approached really
carefully because you're talking to the neurology.
You don't want to send something off in the wrong
direction or traumatize the child or worse, you
know, these retained reflexes can reemerge. especially
in neurodivergent children or adults because
the neurology is you know like tree roots there's
almost too much present they can re -emerge you
don't want that to happen you know suddenly you're
getting that professional support even if you're
the one leading the therapy with your child that
you've got those professional eyes on to make
sure that you are doing it in a safe way for
their bodies exactly exactly especially if they're
highly sensitive that i I was trying to explain
this to one of my first clients. I was like,
use the loaf of bread test. If you wouldn't do
it to a loaf of bread that you've just bought
from the shop because you know it's going to
squish, don't do it to a child. Very gentle hands,
very gentle motion, right? We should definitely
be caring for our children more than loaves of
bread. But I think, you know, it is very difficult
because especially, you know, going through my
own kind of un... undeschooling, unschooling
process, having been a teacher for many years,
I realize now as an adult, as a ADHD adult, a
lot of my kind of assumed practice or behavior
as a parent or a teacher was influenced by, you
know, I guess like a generational difference
that now, I mean, isn't it wonderful and exciting
to be in a season where we can question those
things and do make different choices, make gentler
choices. Yeah. And the right choice is for you
and your family. And it feels like that's respected.
There's a greater respect and understanding for
that than ever, I feel. Yes, exactly. I think
the family unit is so important. And whatever
your family looks like, whatever the caregiving
unit looks like. And, you know, I didn't go as
far as to say, you know, if you're in a learning
environment or you're in a setting and you are.
the adult in charge or there are other adults
present there, you do form a little nervous system.
You form a little family during that time. And
it's so important for children to feel rooted
and secure in whatever familial situation they're
in. Yeah. And children spend so much time of
their day at school if they're at a setting.
They're incredibly influential. Exactly. I fully
agree. Fully agree. Yeah, in a good way and bad
way sometimes, you know, depending on the environment
and the child suitability to that environment.
Exactly, exactly. And I think one of the things
that I'm quite passionate about advocating for
is a family's right to make the right choice
for their. child and whatever that choice might
be I'm very passionate about home education about
EOTAS I know you've just recently done a whole
podcast on EOTAS but you know for whatever situation
you're finding yourself in is to firstly be able
to access the right support and secondly to be
supported in making neuroaffirming choices along
the way yeah for yourself and your children and
sometimes home education is appropriate for your
children but it might not be appropriate or safe
for you right now So it's really important to
manage your whole family. Your whole family dynamic.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, one of
the lovely things that I also get to do is that
I get to talk families through those choices.
And, you know, that slightly left of my therapy
hat and more into the, well, I've seen all sides
of education and I'm a mom and I've walked through
all of this diagnostic. pathways and waiting
lists and we're still on a waiting list for Tourette's
diagnosis I feel like parents like yourself are
forever on a waiting list for something or forever
forever waiting and then your child has a growth
spurt or a developmental change and then something
else comes up and you're you're back on on that
what does that do for a parent for teachers that
are listening How does it feel to live in that
space of constantly advocating, fighting, waiting,
filling out forms, waiting again, proving yourself,
not being believed? What is that like? Can you
explain that? It's exhausting, firstly, because
you're doing all of that whilst still parenting,
often in high stress environments, with your
child who you adore, with every fibre of your
being, and you would... do anything to help them
just be okay, just for one day, for one hour.
And it is very isolating because once you are
on that waiting list or, you know, you are a
patient and it is a professional medical situation.
And, you know, I have had... a very mixed bag
personally and I know I'm not alone I've spoken
to a lot of families who are in a similar situation
some in really difficult situations and then
some who are able to afford to go privately and
you know have a have a whole different experience
but broadly there isn't a lot of compassion towards
the parent in those initial circumstances and
there are a lot of questions about environment
and there need to be but I think if you are in
the thick of things It is depressing. It is exhausting.
It is demoralizing. And you do, honestly, you
start kind of feeling like you're going a little
loopy because you start questioning yourself.
Well, is this my fault? You have to believe that
blame and shame that's being put on you. Yeah.
And the parent shaming really is, I think, probably
what I would say is one of the biggest problems
at the moment in that. in that kind of medical
pathway world, diagnostic pathway. And I've experienced
it. I've walked into an occupational therapy
setting where, you know, they've known from my
brief that I'm, you know, I'm qualified. I've
done this for a long time. I've worked in settings.
I've been able to very thoroughly explain what
I can see is happening and have still been taken
down a peg. for some of the choices that I've
made for my kids or completely left to field
things I was like wow that feels like a cheap
shot yeah I've seen it before nurses or you know
whatever you know highly intelligent intellectual
able to write these letters and send these forms
and and do the research and and still being closed
having like closed doors you know slammed in
their face it just makes you think if that's
happening to you guys How are the parents that
are illiterate or disabled themselves or struggling
multiple siblings with complex needs, how are
they able to even start the process? It's so
ableist in its format, isn't it? Enormously,
yeah. Enormously ableist. And, you know, I mean,
at the moment I'm working with a lovely single
mum. who has three kids on the spectrum, various
educational choices made for benefit. And she's
fantastic. She is on it. And we're going through
DLA applications at the moment. And it's horrific.
And I, you know, I just sat with her and said,
look, just take your time. It's okay. Like, it's
okay. We can do it together. We can find a way
through this. She's dyslexic. It's really difficult
completing a form when you're dyslexic. All the
forms are horrendous anyway, all the forms are
actually, because you always have to say what
your child can't do, what they struggle with,
what their failures are. And yet all we want
to see as parents and educators is that we want
to share all this joy. We want to celebrate them.
And there's no space, there's no page on the
form for that. In fact, it would go against what
you're trying to do. It would go against benefiting
the children if we were to do that. And that
just feels so wrong. And that's before any dyslexia
or form anxiety and trauma and, you know, so
much, so much. So many barriers to why these
children aren't, you know, aren't getting the
support that they very, very rightly deserve.
Exactly. And, you know, they're always somewhere
at the bottom of the food chain. you're you know
holding so many things together as a parent or
caregiver and you know you want to be channeling
all the help towards the children but very often
there's so little coming in yeah and that was
my experience personally it was a really dark
time you know it was post -covid I had two under
four not speaking the other not eating neither
one of them sleeping I was exhausted trying to
you know find support we're on diagnostic pathway
just waiting waiting waiting and you have to
find a way of surviving in that circumstance
and you know I'm trying to be now the change
that I wish I had access to and There is, there
are places that people can go. You know, I'm
lucky where I live now. Our borough here has
a really great autism advisory service, but it
only goes so far. And very rarely are they willing
or able to talk about your personal situation
and to, you know, just look slightly outside
of the box. And that's really difficult when
you have all the HD, which is its own whole world
of concern. And, you know, there are. whatsapp
groups and there are facebook groups and i i
joined as many as i could and some were helpful
some were really depressing yeah it can be overwhelming
with the huge difference in opinions yeah and
theories and with research and it can be an absolute
minefield to know what is right for your child
there's so much noise isn't there listen to this
podcast, buy this book, try this gummy. Yeah.
Yeah. All of it. There's so much noise. And all
you want to do as a parent is make the right
choices for your child. And it's so hard to know
what that looks like. How did you, you said you're
well -read. How did you navigate that noise to
find what was right for your family? Well, I
mean, I did and I didn't. There were days where
I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't
know what I'm doing. There were days where I,
you know, I remember kind of probably the worst,
hardest week of parenting where my son was having
kind of cascade meltdowns and I needed to go
to ASDA and I had no help, no support. I thought,
okay, I'm going to go in the middle of the day.
It's going to be quiet. I'll put him in the trolley
where he feels secure. I've got weighted blankets.
I took the whole shebang. And he had the most
catastrophic meltdown in Asda. He was pulling
things off the shelf. I had to get security guard
to help me keep the trolley upright because he
was really, it was a real harrowing situation.
Everyone was safe and it was totally fine in
the end. But in the moment, I'm just standing
there thinking, they're going to take my children
away from me because I... don't feel like and
I don't look like I know what I'm doing and you
know you do attract opinions and looks and glances
and I mean that was a really I know that is really
common very few people are willing to say that
and it's hard to talk about because it's true
and I think every parent or foster parent I'm
I've a foster parent point of view I completely
resonate with with what you're talking about
completely resonate and then and then also in
then this shame and guilt comes on you as well
for letting that in exactly this weird muddle
of advocating for your child and like hating
everybody that's looking but also being ashamed
that you're even bothered by people looking and
it's the whole thing and and feeling like you
yeah why can't I cope with my own child you know
there's so much going on there for a parent in
that situation. What do you wish that people
around you did? You know, for those that aren't
in that situation, but that maybe see that in
ASDA, what do you wish people did in that situation?
Or do you know? Yeah, I think what would have
been really helpful is if somebody, and I had
to literally call the security guard over and
he just did what I said. I think I kind of screamed
at him. You know, for people to say, how can
I help you? Do you need help? And for it to not
be a, do you need help? Yeah, it's not sympathetic.
It's not judgmental. It's just practical. Do
you need help? Yeah. Because you might have had
your handbag in the next aisle and you've had
to run or you might have had to, it's like getting
practical things. Actually, I've got this car.
Can you go and grab his something from the car
or can you close the aisle maybe? Yes, yeah.
Exactly. And I think in the last 10 years, so
that was quite a while ago now, but I do notice
now, thanks to a gargantuan effort by other parents,
families, folks like you, you know, autism advocacy,
visibility. I do notice now that people are more
aware that someone might be autistic or neurodiverse
in public. Even if visible disabilities are,
there's definitely a... better awareness isn't
there better awareness now there's still judgment
and looking and and inquisitiveness but it it
is done with a bit more understanding as to what
might be going on there rather than it being
uh yeah seen as dangerous or or the parenting
maybe yeah poor parenting exactly exactly yeah
so generational though i feel like there's still
some generation maybe that's a bit of a sweeping
statement there's still that's how i found i
found Under 30s, far more understanding and sympathetic
with empathy than I did maybe the over 60s. And
I think it's just understanding. It's just ignorance,
I think, in the understanding of what's really
going on there. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
And I mean, I was slightly joking with a friend
of mine who is an adult, late diagnosed, already
HD lady. She also a former teacher. She said,
I wonder how many Karens that we encounter in
daily life are actually. undying yeah i was like
actually that would make a lot of sense being
bothered by your behavior so extremely yeah maybe
they're seeing you know their own guilt and their
own fears in in that it's interesting question
isn't it i do think lots of ignorance comes from
fear of the unknown whether that's a lack of
education lack of training lack of awareness
lack of experience i just think lots of ignorance
comes from fear of the unknown and i think the
more we're talking about this and conversations
can be in the main media on main news stories.
I mean, thinking about the media now, I'm terrified
of what's to come, but I'm really pleased it's
in the main media. At least the conversation
is being spoken about. Regardless of what their
opinions are, at least it's out there. At least
we're talking about these children, this really
important community in our... society yeah at
least we're discussing it you know I might not
agree with what everybody thinks but at least
they think something and I think what was happening
decades ago is they it wouldn't even have crossed
their mind to even consider this cohort of our
community so there's definitely a shift there
that people are talking about it they have an
opinion at least absolutely I agree with you
Thinking about this waiting time, so I'm just
imagining a parent has stumbled across this podcast.
They are in the middle of the noise on social
media and research and not really knowing what's
right or wrong for their child. They've just
been to ASDA last week. It wasn't 10 years ago
and they can completely resonate. now they have
some answers but they're waiting for so many
more and they've got a pile of paperwork on their
dining room table that is mounting up what would
what's your message for that person having been
there having been there darling i would start
there and just reassure them it's going to be
okay might not be okay today but baby steps one
thing at a time and i think to Just encourage
you, that person. It's counterintuitive, but
put yourself first today. Make sure you've eaten.
Make sure you've had something to drink. Make
sure that you're safe in your environment and
just start from there. If you can secure your
environment for today in whatever small way you
can, just to feel like you're gaining a little
bit of traction. so that you can clear some headspace,
so that you can clear a little bit of the emotional
trauma. Try and do that. Just start there. That's
a small thing. Everything else can wait. And
then I would say just be careful with what you
consume because there's a lot. There's a lot
out there and everybody's trying to sell to you.
And ironically, the thing that you actually need,
you can't afford and you're on a 18 month plus
waiting list for it. And when you arrive there,
it's not very helpful often. So, you know, find
one voice that you trust and engage, ask them
questions, then make your way forward that way.
I would love to be that voice. If you come across
me, come and find me. And, you know, just start
there. Find one voice that you trust. Great advice.
that small step and I guess when you're thinking
about what your child actually needs in that
moment they need you they don't need these professionals
they don't need the paperwork filled out they
don't need the diagnosis right there and then
they need you to be present they need you to
be co -regulated they need you to be as grounded
as you can be and present in that moment to meet
their needs in that moment I mean god I love
my job for So many reasons, but I love my job
because my learners, for the most part, are so
in the moment, second by second. They don't care
how my day's been. They show me that they do.
They don't care what my morning was like or what
I'm worried about for tomorrow. They just want
their drink or they just want their snack or
they just want a hug or they just need a bounce
and they just want their toy. And it just, I
love that because it just keeps me in the moment.
Which is such a beautiful place to be because
anxiety comes from a fear of what's to come.
It isn't what's happening right, right, right
this second now. And I think children are so
good at that. All children are really good at
being in the very present. And adults aren't.
very good at being in the moment I often find
that even when I'm doing these beautiful intensive
interaction sessions with my children I'm trying
so hard to stay in the moment in tune and so
easily my brain goes to what I'm having for dinner
what shopping this is like you know it's so easy
for us to fall into that but children are so
good at being in tune and present in the moment
listening to their bodies what their bodies need
in that moment what they don't need in that moment
what they don't want in that moment they're so
great at that so I feel like to add on to your
point also for that parent is to let that go
for today just be there right now your child
and be whatever they need you to be and whether
that's opening a bag of crisps turning on giving
them a deep pressure hug or leaving them alone
that's what they need you're doing your job you
there's only so many hats when you spoke about
hats right at the beginning yeah there's only
so many hats you can wear and the most important
hat is the parent hat exactly that attachment
that which it sounds like you are Because parents
that think they're not doing enough are definitely
doing enough. Because if you weren't doing enough,
you wouldn't worry about not doing enough. Exactly.
You found this podcast and you're worrying about
that shows that you're in the right place. You're
okay. You're absolutely enough. Probably more
than. More than enough. These parents are just
incredible. And they haven't often chosen this
role. And yet they fall so heavily and hard and
deeply into. being the most incredible advocate
that yeah you're you're being everything your
child needs you to be right now even if you don't
feel like you are just opening that bag of crisps
for them and turning on their ipad and making
it for sure it's charged is exactly what they
need that's what they need and no guilt let it
go yeah let it go gosh it's easier said than
done isn't it yeah but you know i mean i'm a
advocate for speaking to yourself as a parent
talk to yourself as if you're your own child
I had for a period of about six months the word
stop saying sorry written on a piece of cardboard
and just stuck up in my kitchen and it was really
transformative for me just because you know we
do carry a lot of needing to keep up or please
or so easy to apologize for yourself and your
children and your children are hearing that they're
hearing that they're internalizing that something's
wrong yeah that they should be sorry for something
yeah yeah it's such a simple thing i mean yeah
writing those mantras down is a really great
idea whatever that looks like for you so your
movement therapy what what does your offer look
like right if someone was to contact you what
could they expect from working with you i know
you you offer lots of different things you right
talking about A few of those things. I know we've
spoken a lot about movement therapy, but, you
know, what is your offer for... What do I do?
Yeah, what does it look like? What are the options?
So I have basically kind of just offered whatever
I can because there are people who need sometimes
everything that I offer at once and folks who
just benefit from maybe the therapy or the parent
coaching or access to resources. So I... basically
now run something called the book stack parent
hub and it's called that because i've read all
the books so that you don't have to and within
that there are three kind of pathways that i
can support you so the kind of biggest pathway
is root rise and learn which is where i offer
one -to -one therapy the movement therapy reflex
integration if you need a sensory plan or help
to create a sensory map or a sensory diet and
we can do that for one person one child or for
your whole family which i actually do suggest
is a good idea because that has a huge impact
on how children in the home respond to things
knowing how everybody responds to the environment
so i can offer those kind of specific therapeutic
things and i can also offer one -to -one parent
coaching even if you just want to have a 15 minute
chat and i have a lot of free things on my blog
on my store in fact there's only one thing that
i charge for everything else is free so please
go and grab those resources I'm on Instagram,
on Root, Rise and Learn. I'm on TikTok. I'm online,
bookstackparenthub .co .uk. And you'll find everything
there. Amazing. So, you know, go and grab a free
resource. And my calls are free as well. I, you
know, if you need help, I'm here. I'd rather
be here than not. So, you know, come and find
me. And then also there is Help My Home School,
which has kind of come out of a natural progression.
from the parent coaching calls to being like,
well, how do I home educate children with additional
needs? And, you know, now with the changes in
the law surrounding home education, there's been
quite a big conversation about that. And a lot
of really panicked people. Don't panic. It's
fine. So you can find me there, Help My Home
School, which is also under the book stack. That's
more specific to education choices. And it might
not necessarily be homeschool or home education
that you choose. It may be just having a conversation
about, I need to work. How do we make this happen?
Or is this the right choice? Is it maybe the
right choice for a year? But then during that
year, we're really working on. you know, mental
health and helping children just come out of
difficult, you know, school trauma situations.
And then we're pivoting towards something else,
you know, conversations like that around education
choice. And then a little bit of whimsy, my little
bit of fun is Little Labs Library. I'm really
passionate about communications. Well, Jordan,
that's how I found you. I'm really good. Because
of my little girl, Language Delay, speaking Language
Delay. So Little Labs Library is basically where
I kind of offer the... curriculum -based meat
and potatoes of what happens inside of my homeschool
and how do I specifically adapt, particularly
literacy exercises, growth development, all of
those things for neurodiverse kiddos. What do
I do? How does it look? And again, lots of free
resources. Lots about building neurological health
through reading, building character through reading
in children who may miss social cues. Or, you
know, PDA is a big situation in our home here.
How to approach literacy. I find literacy and
PDA are just problematic, but there is a way.
There is a way. And lots of play -based things.
So there's quite a lot there. Let me go over
it again. I'm gonna well if you could send me
all the links I will put them all below so if
you have heard any of that that you want to join
all of it or some of it you will find the link
below because so much of it yeah covers so many
different things that you might be needing or
wanting to look more into which all sound fantastic
and I don't know how you have the time to homeschool
parent and do all of that but that just sounds
incredible my kids are a bit off the now so it's
a little okay it's great and I love ADHD for
that because I feel like these things would exist
without ADHD adults because when we see a need
we we think outside the box and we feel it and
I think that is that's what it's been so fantastic
for this space is is parents that are neurodivergent
and teachers that are neurodivergent seeing a
need and feeling it and that's where my stuff
comes from that's where your stuff comes from
that's where lots of old friends and people in
this podcast stuff comes from and I love that
it really celebrates the neurodivergent brain
in that way that we and we feel it and I love
that yeah hooray so if you are a parent or teacher
or other and you feel like you would benefit
from seeing this stuff then the links are down
below to follow Celeste in all of her different
ventures so that you can learn more and join
her journey and join her stuff work with her
if you want to and you feel like that would be
beneficial or have a call with her you know there's
sounds like so many different ways that you can
get involved and it it really does sound just
the most fantastic and and you can see your passion
for it and you can see that you've lived it it's
a real live read lots of books but you can see
how you're talking about it that the books are
the evidence for what you're actually living
and I think that's really crucial when you're
working in this way but that's just just so fantastic
to just to see thank you so much Celeste for
thank you Jordan I will share regularly when
I'm being met with DMs from parents that are
in that waiting space I think yeah it's so common
and like you said it's a rolling weight that
so many can relate to and I think yeah your advice
over that was was really wonderful so thank you
for that thank you Jordan have a lovely day thank
you everybody