WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.700 Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education 00:00:02.700 --> 00:00:06.160 teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:09.119 communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson 00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:11.660 ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged 00:00:11.660 --> 00:00:15.300 4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in 00:00:15.300 --> 00:00:17.640 the field answering your questions and sharing 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:19.519 our knowledge and experience working alongside 00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:22.559 our beautiful young people. Let's get started. 00:00:27.530 --> 00:00:30.190 As I did last summer holidays, I'm going to kind 00:00:30.190 --> 00:00:33.369 of run a roundup of this academic year's podcast 00:00:33.369 --> 00:00:36.670 episodes over the next few weeks for you to enjoy. 00:00:36.670 --> 00:00:38.729 And maybe you missed a couple and you want to 00:00:38.729 --> 00:00:42.729 come back. So yeah, here are my favorite clips 00:00:42.729 --> 00:00:46.960 from the last year. Enjoy. Sorry. So I'd like 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:50.539 to start off by saying I think that the concept 00:00:50.539 --> 00:00:53.640 of screen time has led us in an unhelpful direction 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:56.640 as a society. I think there's a lot of focus 00:00:56.640 --> 00:01:01.179 on time, amount of time a child spends on a screen. 00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:03.280 And I remember this from when my own children 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:05.680 were small, panic about how much is all right 00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:07.680 when they're this age and how much is OK when 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:11.040 they're this age. And even then. I was thinking, 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:13.560 this doesn't quite make sense to me as a psychologist, 00:01:13.659 --> 00:01:17.579 because a screen is only a sheet of glass, right? 00:01:17.599 --> 00:01:19.840 That's it. And why are we putting everything 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:22.079 that is done through this sheet of glass together 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:24.379 and calling it screen time? We don't do that 00:01:24.379 --> 00:01:27.099 with other stuff. We don't say reading, writing, 00:01:27.319 --> 00:01:30.599 drawing, all paper time, better put that together 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:33.540 and limit how much paper time they have. Or, 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:36.439 you know, sofa time, things we do on the sofa. 00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:39.799 We only really do that with screen time. think 00:01:39.799 --> 00:01:42.959 that has had a detrimental effect on lots and 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:45.079 lots of levels but one way I think it's had a 00:01:45.079 --> 00:01:47.200 detrimental effect is I think parents are highly 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:50.120 anxious about screen time teachers as well and 00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:52.540 that can prevent them from really thinking about 00:01:52.540 --> 00:01:55.700 what is this child actually doing here and is 00:01:55.700 --> 00:01:57.560 it a problem or not because we think it's done 00:01:57.560 --> 00:01:59.700 through a screen it must be a problem and I do 00:01:59.700 --> 00:02:02.439 think we have to get much more nuanced because 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:04.719 I think there are things that children do on 00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:07.379 screens which are not good for them and which 00:02:07.379 --> 00:02:10.639 can be can raise safeguarding issues and all 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:12.699 sorts of things. And I think we have to be really 00:02:12.699 --> 00:02:15.039 on that. But I think there are also lots of things 00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:17.620 that children use or do on screens, which are 00:02:17.620 --> 00:02:20.400 really beneficial for them, particularly children, 00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:22.740 autistic children, children with special educational 00:02:22.740 --> 00:02:25.300 needs, but actually all children, I think. And 00:02:25.300 --> 00:02:27.659 because we've lumped it all together, we've got 00:02:27.659 --> 00:02:30.979 this kind of fear of all of it. And that fear 00:02:30.979 --> 00:02:33.460 has a few impacts. One of the impacts it has 00:02:33.460 --> 00:02:36.180 is that often parents actually don't know very 00:02:36.180 --> 00:02:38.080 much about what their children are actually. 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:40.199 doing on a screen because they're just like screen 00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:42.840 time waste of time you know I was one parent 00:02:42.840 --> 00:02:46.379 I talked to um her little boy was had a strict 00:02:46.379 --> 00:02:48.259 screen time limits I think it was 30 minutes 00:02:48.259 --> 00:02:50.400 a day or something and I said to her what's he 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:52.580 doing on those in those 30 minutes she said I 00:02:52.580 --> 00:02:55.500 have no idea it's up you know I don't want to 00:02:55.500 --> 00:02:57.599 get involved and I was like well that's a real 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:00.949 missed opportunity because Actually, what children 00:03:00.949 --> 00:03:03.849 do on screens is vastly different. And there 00:03:03.849 --> 00:03:07.050 are amazing things that you can do on a tablet, 00:03:07.210 --> 00:03:08.969 particularly a child with learning disabilities 00:03:08.969 --> 00:03:11.689 can do on a tablet that they cannot do in any 00:03:11.689 --> 00:03:14.409 other context because it reduces barriers. You 00:03:14.409 --> 00:03:16.990 know, it becomes the most, I see loads of children 00:03:16.990 --> 00:03:19.050 for whom something they do on the tablet is the 00:03:19.050 --> 00:03:21.530 most complex thing that they can do. They can 00:03:21.530 --> 00:03:24.349 play, they can build houses. You can, like Minecraft, 00:03:24.469 --> 00:03:26.169 one of my favourite games of all time. It's so 00:03:26.169 --> 00:03:28.909 fantastic. It's an amazing game. You can build 00:03:28.909 --> 00:03:31.879 amazing... things in minecraft and you are much 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:34.460 less limited by any motor problems you might 00:03:34.460 --> 00:03:37.620 have than say lego which requires really quite 00:03:37.620 --> 00:03:40.439 a lot of fine motor skills and for a child with 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:44.280 disabilities they can access that joy of making 00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:46.900 stuff and things even if they don't have the 00:03:46.900 --> 00:03:49.199 fine motor skills that they might need to build 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:51.759 their go or something. And actually that happens 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:54.580 on so many levels. I see children who are able 00:03:54.580 --> 00:03:56.680 to play with other children in something like 00:03:56.680 --> 00:03:59.400 Minecraft when they really struggle to play with 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:01.699 other children in the outside world. Because 00:04:01.699 --> 00:04:03.419 there you've just, again, you reduce the barriers. 00:04:03.539 --> 00:04:05.080 Like you can be playing with other children and 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:07.139 you can be at home with your mum and they might 00:04:07.139 --> 00:04:09.460 be at home with their mum. And so you can, the 00:04:09.460 --> 00:04:12.000 parents can really help facilitate that process. 00:04:12.460 --> 00:04:14.620 And I've heard some amazing conversations between 00:04:14.620 --> 00:04:17.319 children playing. something like Minecraft or 00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:19.439 another game and you're like wow there's so much 00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:21.399 negotiation and stuff that's going on here and 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:22.879 I just don't think they would be able to manage 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:25.819 that if that was in the quotes real world so 00:04:25.819 --> 00:04:28.860 that's kind of one one area and also the other 00:04:28.860 --> 00:04:31.060 thing about it is I think that this kind of fear 00:04:31.060 --> 00:04:34.220 of screen time creates a disconnect between adults 00:04:34.220 --> 00:04:37.459 and children because Lots of children, particularly 00:04:37.459 --> 00:04:39.860 those with special needs, what they do on their 00:04:39.860 --> 00:04:42.420 screen is what they love most. That's where they 00:04:42.420 --> 00:04:45.100 feel most confident. It's where they feel most 00:04:45.100 --> 00:04:47.959 themselves. It's where they feel really good 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:49.860 about themselves. And for a child who struggles 00:04:49.860 --> 00:04:53.740 with school, life, academic stuff, it's really 00:04:53.740 --> 00:04:55.639 important that they have a place where they feel 00:04:55.639 --> 00:04:57.860 good about themselves. And I see that again. 00:04:57.920 --> 00:04:59.519 I'm going to use the example of Minecraft again. 00:04:59.740 --> 00:05:02.639 You know, in Minecraft, you can be, you are. 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:07.139 in control of your own world you are the person 00:05:07.139 --> 00:05:09.639 who can make things happen you can grow stuff 00:05:09.639 --> 00:05:12.199 you can breed animals you can make you know you 00:05:12.199 --> 00:05:14.509 make these things happen And if you think of 00:05:14.509 --> 00:05:17.470 how so many children with learning disabilities 00:05:17.470 --> 00:05:20.250 or with other needs, they don't have many experiences 00:05:20.250 --> 00:05:22.470 in their life where they're the person who makes 00:05:22.470 --> 00:05:25.050 things happen and can see what they do and can 00:05:25.050 --> 00:05:26.930 like, I want to do that. I'm going to do that. 00:05:27.189 --> 00:05:28.970 Nobody's going to stop me. I'm going to do it. 00:05:29.069 --> 00:05:31.189 They need help all the time. You know what I 00:05:31.189 --> 00:05:33.329 mean? They always need support. And this is an 00:05:33.329 --> 00:05:35.509 area where they don't, maybe they don't need 00:05:35.509 --> 00:05:46.189 that. And I think that's what we feel Regulate 00:05:46.189 --> 00:05:48.709 to Communicate does, is it is that foundation 00:05:48.709 --> 00:05:51.569 of therapeutic practice within the classroom. 00:05:51.769 --> 00:05:55.329 It is a therapeutic approach to learning. You 00:05:55.329 --> 00:05:57.069 know, it's coming at it from a totally different 00:05:57.069 --> 00:06:00.350 angle. And we really feel that if there... you 00:06:00.350 --> 00:06:03.009 know schools are able to get this this basic 00:06:03.009 --> 00:06:05.990 level of provision within classrooms then you 00:06:05.990 --> 00:06:09.769 can expand on that and you can then go on and 00:06:09.769 --> 00:06:13.050 create a really lovely more complex piece of 00:06:13.050 --> 00:06:16.110 communication tool that you can then use to um 00:06:16.110 --> 00:06:18.949 you know really open the lines of communication 00:06:18.949 --> 00:06:22.240 with your students you can do that once the basics 00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:24.240 are in place and what we're finding more and 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:26.120 more in all these schools we're going into whether 00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:28.160 it be mainstream whether it be resource bases 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:30.360 whether it be specialists we're not we've not 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:32.620 even got that basic level there anymore because 00:06:32.620 --> 00:06:35.579 staff are so overwhelmed so stressed you know 00:06:35.579 --> 00:06:37.439 and there's a lot of very complex needs in the 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:39.160 classroom at the minute that are really challenging 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:42.240 to meet how do you meet all of these needs you 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:45.620 can't do an OT program for every single young 00:06:45.620 --> 00:06:47.839 person in your class it's just not possible to 00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:50.199 do you've got to be realistic about it and we 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:51.709 have to be realistic realistic as therapists 00:06:51.709 --> 00:06:54.149 as well and we need to be realistic about what 00:06:54.149 --> 00:06:56.449 we're expecting teaching staff to do and not 00:06:56.449 --> 00:06:59.370 be judgmental when they've not followed our program 00:06:59.370 --> 00:07:02.230 so we're trying to make it easy you know we see 00:07:02.230 --> 00:07:04.949 the struggles on the ground and we you know we 00:07:04.949 --> 00:07:07.189 feel it and we want to make it easier for teaching 00:07:07.189 --> 00:07:09.670 staff so that they can feel like they're doing 00:07:09.670 --> 00:07:11.290 some you know that they're making a difference 00:07:11.290 --> 00:07:13.509 in their job and that the young people are getting 00:07:13.509 --> 00:07:15.569 something out of it as well yeah and they've 00:07:15.569 --> 00:07:19.089 got they've got a plan ultimately let's talk 00:07:19.089 --> 00:07:22.610 about the system then Is there a reason why you 00:07:22.610 --> 00:07:25.069 called it regulate to communicate and not communicate 00:07:25.069 --> 00:07:28.649 to regulate? Let's start there. Such a good question. 00:07:29.170 --> 00:07:34.089 Come on with the juicy question. There's no, 00:07:34.310 --> 00:07:37.230 I mean, when we kind of started designing the 00:07:37.230 --> 00:07:39.860 approach and the way it worked. when we are looking 00:07:39.860 --> 00:07:42.959 at developing a lot of people come to us as speech 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:44.839 therapists and say we want to hear their voice 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:46.860 we want to get them using a communication system 00:07:46.860 --> 00:07:50.620 it's great in the modern world but you see ipads 00:07:50.620 --> 00:07:53.540 with all these apps and it makes it seem so accessible 00:07:53.540 --> 00:07:56.079 it's like it's just on the tip i could get there 00:07:56.079 --> 00:07:59.790 but in order to get there you have to deal with 00:07:59.790 --> 00:08:02.870 the regulation first so because of what people 00:08:02.870 --> 00:08:04.850 were coming to us and asking for which was for 00:08:04.850 --> 00:08:07.850 this end result the end result of having a complex 00:08:07.850 --> 00:08:11.189 communication system or having a um a young person 00:08:11.189 --> 00:08:13.089 who is able to express themselves fluidly and 00:08:13.089 --> 00:08:16.910 confidently we can't look at that until we do 00:08:16.910 --> 00:08:19.750 that regulation until we get them feeling safe 00:08:19.750 --> 00:08:22.829 and we talk a lot about on our training around 00:08:22.829 --> 00:08:25.990 safety and around signs of safety because i think 00:08:25.990 --> 00:08:28.300 we have to take it back to that we can get all 00:08:28.300 --> 00:08:31.139 in our head with sensory processing and communication 00:08:31.139 --> 00:08:33.620 all these jargon words that people fly around 00:08:34.490 --> 00:08:37.149 Actually, what our goal is, is that our young 00:08:37.149 --> 00:08:38.889 people come into our settings while they're at 00:08:38.889 --> 00:08:42.509 home and they feel as safe as possible. Because 00:08:42.509 --> 00:08:45.129 if our young people aren't feeling safe, we can't 00:08:45.129 --> 00:08:46.529 do anything. There's not going to be any learning 00:08:46.529 --> 00:08:47.789 going on. There's not going to be any social 00:08:47.789 --> 00:08:49.049 interaction going on. There's not going to be 00:08:49.049 --> 00:08:53.129 any play going on. So that regulation is also 00:08:53.129 --> 00:08:55.190 really another word to kind of make our children 00:08:55.190 --> 00:08:57.649 feel safe before we're expecting them to communicate 00:08:57.649 --> 00:09:00.590 to us. And it really goes back to the theory 00:09:00.590 --> 00:09:04.090 around Maslow's hierarchy of needs. and that 00:09:04.090 --> 00:09:07.549 pyramid at the base of that pyramid are all your 00:09:07.549 --> 00:09:10.649 sensory systems and if those basic needs are 00:09:10.649 --> 00:09:13.450 not met then you're not able to work your way 00:09:13.450 --> 00:09:16.190 through that pyramid you know with with the the 00:09:16.190 --> 00:09:18.950 end destination being those you know really complex 00:09:18.950 --> 00:09:22.230 functional skills and communication is much higher 00:09:22.230 --> 00:09:25.429 up on that hierarchy of needs so that's why i 00:09:25.429 --> 00:09:28.610 think we we sort of termed it regulated communicate 00:09:28.610 --> 00:09:31.289 and i suppose for lots of children the reason 00:09:31.289 --> 00:09:33.799 why communication is so different difficult comes 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:36.840 from proprioception needs and fine motor skills 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:40.120 needs you know if they're not able to know where 00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:42.039 their fingers are in space then they're not going 00:09:42.039 --> 00:09:44.460 to be able to use the aac or to point or sign 00:09:44.460 --> 00:09:47.000 or to manipulate their mouth in order to make 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:49.539 sounds for example so it's almost preparing their 00:09:49.539 --> 00:09:53.419 body to do those quite complex skills for our 00:09:53.419 --> 00:09:56.059 children if they've got those regulation needs 00:09:56.059 --> 00:09:59.590 it is exactly is and i think As we call it, regulate 00:09:59.590 --> 00:10:01.250 to communicate. But as part of that regulation 00:10:01.250 --> 00:10:03.289 is also about what you're doing with your voice. 00:10:03.549 --> 00:10:06.649 So a lot of the time, the way that we use language, 00:10:06.710 --> 00:10:09.470 whether it's verbal or symbols or sign, can really 00:10:09.470 --> 00:10:12.250 impact our child's feeling of how safe they feel. 00:10:12.370 --> 00:10:14.389 Because unfortunately, because of all the reasons 00:10:14.389 --> 00:10:16.509 you've just listed, Jordan, language is a really 00:10:16.509 --> 00:10:18.970 high demand for a lot of our kids. It's a really, 00:10:18.970 --> 00:10:21.889 really high demand. So we're coming in with these 00:10:21.889 --> 00:10:23.940 really high demands, even if it... we want it 00:10:23.940 --> 00:10:26.440 to be quite nurturing or problem solving or whatever, 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:28.919 you know, the language we might be using. And 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:30.940 if we're not using our communication right, we're 00:10:30.940 --> 00:10:32.039 not going to be able to regulate them either. 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:35.039 So we've kind of got to get all of that right 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:37.000 first. We've got to get all of those things around 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:39.820 the sensory system and also look at our adults 00:10:39.820 --> 00:10:42.399 and think about what can you do with your language 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:44.399 to regulate the children that you're working 00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:55.029 with. And I haven't spoken to many, if not any 00:10:55.029 --> 00:10:59.110 parents like you. And then also you are a clinical 00:10:59.110 --> 00:11:03.509 psychologist. So I am so intrigued as to hear 00:11:03.509 --> 00:11:07.970 how that impacts your parenting and navigating 00:11:07.970 --> 00:11:12.850 this world that you're in too. Yeah, yeah. From 00:11:12.850 --> 00:11:14.289 your perspective, I don't know if you want to 00:11:14.289 --> 00:11:17.250 do like a little introduction as to who you are 00:11:17.250 --> 00:11:20.389 and your daughter. Yeah, no, you did a very well 00:11:20.389 --> 00:11:24.289 introduction already. But yeah, so I'm mum to 00:11:24.289 --> 00:11:27.730 Autumn and also her sister River, who unfortunately 00:11:27.730 --> 00:11:29.970 doesn't get much of a look in in so many ways. 00:11:29.990 --> 00:11:32.830 So I wanted to mention her too. She is going 00:11:32.830 --> 00:11:36.629 to be two next week. but yeah so I'm also a clinical 00:11:36.629 --> 00:11:40.789 psychologist and I have been for about 11 years 00:11:40.789 --> 00:11:43.450 I think it is now and I work I don't work with 00:11:43.450 --> 00:11:46.230 children though I work with adults so this is 00:11:46.230 --> 00:11:49.629 yeah it's it's different working with children 00:11:49.629 --> 00:11:54.090 I I always sort of try to avoid it in my career 00:11:54.090 --> 00:11:58.639 path because feels so much more complicated as 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:01.159 I'm discovering on this journey in what way do 00:12:01.159 --> 00:12:03.740 you think it's more complicated what do you mean 00:12:03.740 --> 00:12:06.360 by that well I always remember you have to kind 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:09.200 of do a placement in training so I did I did 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:12.419 do six months in a child placement and I just 00:12:12.419 --> 00:12:14.139 remember it was complicated because it's not 00:12:14.139 --> 00:12:17.139 just one person it's the family it's the system 00:12:17.139 --> 00:12:20.360 and that just like felt like too many too many 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:22.899 things to keep in mind and so I just thought 00:12:22.899 --> 00:12:26.179 in my mind if I just work with adults kind of 00:12:26.179 --> 00:12:28.539 keeps things more straightforward because you're 00:12:28.539 --> 00:12:30.460 just dealing with that one person yeah because 00:12:30.460 --> 00:12:32.500 it's not just the mental health of the child 00:12:32.500 --> 00:12:34.940 it's the mental health of the parents who are 00:12:34.940 --> 00:12:37.419 impacting on the child it's the schools it's 00:12:37.419 --> 00:12:40.059 um you know any anybody that's got contact with 00:12:40.059 --> 00:12:43.299 that child it's it became it just felt like too 00:12:43.299 --> 00:12:46.600 much for me to keep in mind yeah and so that's 00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:48.600 really why I kind of yeah that's interesting 00:12:49.399 --> 00:12:51.860 Lots of the children in my class have huge teams 00:12:51.860 --> 00:12:55.799 around them and it can be overwhelming to lead 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:57.820 those meetings and have those conversations when 00:12:57.820 --> 00:12:59.820 everybody's coming at it from a slightly different 00:12:59.820 --> 00:13:03.159 angle. It can certainly be quite overwhelming. 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:05.559 For those that don't know, what does clinical 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:09.759 psychology entail? What do you cover within that? 00:13:09.820 --> 00:13:11.919 Because I guess knowing that will then help us 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:14.100 reflect on how that impacts you as a parent. 00:13:14.500 --> 00:13:17.220 Yeah, no, clinical psychologists work with everybody 00:13:17.220 --> 00:13:19.799 and anybody, but it's... essentially anybody 00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:22.019 and everybody that might be experiencing some 00:13:22.019 --> 00:13:25.100 kind of distress so I think it is as simple as 00:13:25.100 --> 00:13:27.820 that so yes there are lots of clinical psychologists 00:13:27.820 --> 00:13:30.960 that work in the mental health field and that's 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:33.639 always been my sort of journey I actually work 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:37.149 with NHS staff now who are in some kind of work 00:13:37.149 --> 00:13:39.529 -related distress. But I have worked with people 00:13:39.529 --> 00:13:43.190 who have got kind of mild, moderate, complex 00:13:43.190 --> 00:13:45.830 mental health needs. But clinical psychologists 00:13:45.830 --> 00:13:48.330 can work with people with health conditions. 00:13:48.350 --> 00:13:51.210 And, you know, as we said, children, they can 00:13:51.210 --> 00:13:53.649 work in lots of different contexts. So in the 00:13:53.649 --> 00:13:58.629 community, in schools, in patient settings. So 00:13:58.629 --> 00:14:02.220 we kind of cover. a wide kind of group of people, 00:14:02.259 --> 00:14:04.779 well, everybody really. Right. So even before 00:14:04.779 --> 00:14:06.899 your daughter came along, you had quite a good 00:14:06.899 --> 00:14:10.779 understanding of neurodiversity and neurodevelopmental 00:14:10.779 --> 00:14:13.860 conditions, I suppose, that would affect mental 00:14:13.860 --> 00:14:17.120 health? I guess, if I'm really honest, it was 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:20.470 a small... part of our training so probably not 00:14:20.470 --> 00:14:24.870 as much as i ought to and also i think it's the 00:14:24.870 --> 00:14:27.549 the kind of environment has changed so much in 00:14:27.549 --> 00:14:30.809 the last 10 years that it wasn't really on people's 00:14:30.809 --> 00:14:32.909 radar in the same way that it is now it felt 00:14:32.909 --> 00:14:35.929 very much like a sort of specialist area and 00:14:35.929 --> 00:14:38.230 if you're kind of interested in neurodiversity 00:14:38.230 --> 00:14:41.730 that that's kind of you go on placements to be 00:14:41.730 --> 00:14:44.350 thinking about that sort of thing um you know 00:14:44.350 --> 00:14:47.070 working with people with autism for example or 00:14:47.070 --> 00:14:50.320 adhd or doing the assessments for people with 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:54.139 those conditions. And yeah, it wasn't, whereas 00:14:54.139 --> 00:14:56.440 now it's, it's different. It's, it's very much 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:59.039 like, you know, it's, it's, we've got to be thinking 00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:01.799 about it everywhere and we need to have that 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:05.820 awareness. And so I feel like I'm kind of learning 00:15:05.820 --> 00:15:09.100 from my own experience with, with parenting autumn. 00:15:09.500 --> 00:15:11.799 That's actually shaped how I've been thinking 00:15:11.799 --> 00:15:15.000 about in my own work. So now I am actually leading 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:18.320 on the kind of neuro kind of affirmative changes 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:21.539 that we're, we're making in our service. It's 00:15:21.539 --> 00:15:23.440 really small little things actually that we're 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:26.850 changing and doing. I've learned that it's those 00:15:26.850 --> 00:15:29.049 small little things that make people feel seen, 00:15:29.210 --> 00:15:31.929 make people feel understood, make people kind 00:15:31.929 --> 00:15:35.029 of feel like, well, they're more supported, really, 00:15:35.190 --> 00:15:37.909 just, you know, with their needs, their different 00:15:37.909 --> 00:15:40.090 needs. Yeah, and I suppose that starts from even 00:15:40.090 --> 00:15:42.690 before they're even in your door. Is the application 00:15:42.690 --> 00:15:45.210 process accessible? Is the waiting room accessible? 00:15:45.590 --> 00:15:47.950 Is it all accessible? I've recently, I mean, 00:15:47.950 --> 00:15:52.149 we'll get on to you, but I've recently gone for 00:15:52.149 --> 00:15:55.970 an autism and ADHD assessment. self and sitting 00:15:55.970 --> 00:15:58.789 in the waiting room was so inaccessible there 00:15:58.789 --> 00:16:04.470 was uh noise and uh yeah it just we all the weird 00:16:04.470 --> 00:16:06.990 things going on and it just made it really accessible 00:16:06.990 --> 00:16:08.769 the whole thing so it's just really interesting 00:16:08.769 --> 00:16:10.830 to know that even before you even step in the 00:16:10.830 --> 00:16:12.909 room sometimes some of those situations can be 00:16:12.909 --> 00:16:16.970 inaccessible to adults or children um needing 00:16:16.970 --> 00:16:20.610 that service i think nhs environments are really 00:16:20.610 --> 00:16:23.070 rubbish for it you know they've got the terrible 00:16:23.070 --> 00:16:26.389 lighting and you know just noises everywhere 00:16:26.389 --> 00:16:30.049 um like one of the things we change it's so it's 00:16:30.049 --> 00:16:33.480 so silly really but there were just posters and 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:37.700 pictures and everywhere and it was so busy like 00:16:37.700 --> 00:16:40.059 it was stressing me out going into just the corridor 00:16:40.059 --> 00:16:42.539 so it's just like strip that bag you don't need 00:16:42.539 --> 00:16:46.179 it all um it's just overwhelming basically i 00:16:46.179 --> 00:16:47.820 think how more accessible the world would be 00:16:47.820 --> 00:16:50.100 if everybody thought like that because it doesn't 00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:52.259 hurt everybody else everybody else will find 00:16:52.259 --> 00:16:54.740 it less overwhelming too well that's right yeah 00:16:54.740 --> 00:16:56.980 it's it's better for everybody and like oh the 00:16:56.980 --> 00:16:58.779 one thing that really bugs me is the ticking 00:16:58.779 --> 00:17:02.600 clocks yeah exactly so i have to I'm working 00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:04.920 on changing that. But yeah, as I said, it is 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:07.359 little things sometimes, but that actually do 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:10.299 make a big difference. So your awareness of those, 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:14.319 the crucial need for that comes from your daughter. 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:18.440 So let's talk about her. That's really what I 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:21.519 want to get into today. Did you know about any 00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:26.720 of her needs before birth? No, nothing. We had 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:31.329 a very typical pregnancy. Birth was fine. than 00:17:31.329 --> 00:17:34.329 painful and yeah we were oblivious it was covid 00:17:34.329 --> 00:17:40.309 times so we didn't um get to see other children 00:17:40.309 --> 00:17:43.869 her age to quite the same extent um so we didn't 00:17:43.869 --> 00:17:46.569 sort of notice that she wasn't kind of doing 00:17:46.569 --> 00:17:49.089 the things that other typical babies would do 00:17:49.089 --> 00:17:51.190 and we just thought she was a really easygoing 00:17:51.190 --> 00:17:55.910 placid kind of baby we Yeah. We, we didn't notice 00:17:55.910 --> 00:17:59.390 anything. It was only when she wasn't showing 00:17:59.390 --> 00:18:02.609 signs of walking. That was the first sign really. 00:18:02.910 --> 00:18:05.569 And that, to be honest with you, I was very much 00:18:05.569 --> 00:18:07.589 of the view that lots of people say like, you 00:18:07.589 --> 00:18:09.950 know, it will come, you know, every child's different. 00:18:10.049 --> 00:18:12.569 Just, just wait it out. You know, she's going 00:18:12.569 --> 00:18:15.109 to walk eventually. It'll be fine. So I was just, 00:18:15.109 --> 00:18:17.130 I was just very much like, let's just go with 00:18:17.130 --> 00:18:20.240 the flow. Like it's going to happen. nothing 00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:22.759 isn't not going to happen and little did i know 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:25.359 i had no i just didn't know i didn't realize 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:28.599 we with river our second now we see the differences 00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:32.079 are so huge but um it's just like things like 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:35.740 you know not reaching out for toys um and and 00:18:35.740 --> 00:18:38.200 all kind of just engaging with the world like 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:40.400 she would engage with us and so i think i had 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:43.880 that very classic kind of view of autism or you 00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:46.980 know that's the main kind of neurodivergent condition 00:18:46.980 --> 00:18:50.009 that you kind of think about which is like know 00:18:50.009 --> 00:18:52.750 no eye contact or just you know not not wanting 00:18:52.750 --> 00:18:55.289 to respond to your voice and things like that 00:18:55.289 --> 00:18:57.869 and she wasn't showing those sorts of signs so 00:18:57.869 --> 00:19:01.069 um i was actually really reassured because she 00:19:01.069 --> 00:19:03.750 was smiling at us engaging with us but actually 00:19:03.750 --> 00:19:06.349 on reflection she wasn't engaging with the world 00:19:06.349 --> 00:19:08.710 and yeah and then she wasn't showing any of that 00:19:08.710 --> 00:19:13.180 internal motivation internal drive to learn And 00:19:13.180 --> 00:19:15.460 again, I didn't really think much of it at the 00:19:15.460 --> 00:19:18.480 time. But on reflection, when I see River and 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:21.359 her internal drive to learn, you know, she actually 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:24.339 wants to kind of learn things just very naturally. 00:19:24.380 --> 00:19:27.039 Oh, what's that? Or, you know, let's find out 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:29.079 about this. Let's explore this. It just came 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:31.440 so naturally to her. Whereas for Autumn, it's 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:33.819 just not there. It's non -existent. Everything 00:19:33.819 --> 00:19:37.019 she learns, she has to be shown. And even then, 00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:39.119 it's not just shown once. It's shown over and 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:40.420 over and over again with lots of repetition. 00:19:40.900 --> 00:19:43.519 So, yeah, it started. out with the walking and 00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:46.319 then it's the you know lack of speech not talking 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:48.960 and then you know you become more and more aware 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:51.839 of just all the things that that children do 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:54.900 learn in those early stages that she just wasn't 00:19:54.900 --> 00:20:05.279 learning she wasn't picking up. I had this mission 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:09.630 that I felt I had to do something about was I 00:20:09.630 --> 00:20:12.490 had to help protect other parents against burnout 00:20:12.490 --> 00:20:15.730 because typical kind of burnout, when people 00:20:15.730 --> 00:20:18.390 go, oh, just do a bit more self -care, that doesn't 00:20:18.390 --> 00:20:21.690 work. Have a bath. Have a bath, go and get a 00:20:21.690 --> 00:20:24.730 massage. It doesn't even touch the sides. Go 00:20:24.730 --> 00:20:26.589 and have a bit more of a sleep. You could send 00:20:26.589 --> 00:20:28.849 me to Barbados for two weeks on my own. It wouldn't 00:20:28.849 --> 00:20:31.910 even touch the sides. So I knew things had to 00:20:31.910 --> 00:20:33.950 be different and I knew that I had to use kind 00:20:33.950 --> 00:20:36.410 of my OT skills to be able to do that. But actually 00:20:36.410 --> 00:20:39.319 the kind of very stereotypical. how do we support 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:42.579 people in burnout wasn't going to work for us 00:20:42.579 --> 00:20:45.799 if we were one neurodivergent parents or if we 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:47.380 weren't sure whether we were not neurodivergent 00:20:47.380 --> 00:20:50.299 as parents or when you're a typical in neurodivergent 00:20:50.299 --> 00:20:53.420 families that that typical just take a rest was 00:20:53.420 --> 00:20:56.059 not going to was not going to cut it yeah yeah 00:20:56.059 --> 00:20:58.700 i mean what you're dealing with is so much more 00:20:58.700 --> 00:21:03.250 than exhaustion isn't it Absolutely. Can you 00:21:03.250 --> 00:21:05.890 explain a little bit about how this burnout is 00:21:05.890 --> 00:21:08.190 different? I've certainly seen it as a teacher 00:21:08.190 --> 00:21:11.710 with parents, usually the children that haven't 00:21:11.710 --> 00:21:14.490 got a school place, a suitable school place, 00:21:14.730 --> 00:21:17.549 but also parents that are fighting for diagnosis, 00:21:17.890 --> 00:21:22.230 for EHCP, for the EHCP to then be met, for AAC 00:21:22.230 --> 00:21:25.349 devices, for the right therapy. It's almost like 00:21:25.349 --> 00:21:28.890 the relentlessness of the fight. You just feel 00:21:28.890 --> 00:21:31.730 like you're getting somewhere. And then you've 00:21:31.730 --> 00:21:33.910 just got a whole other barrier. Is that what 00:21:33.910 --> 00:21:36.430 makes it different? Is there even more than that? 00:21:36.569 --> 00:21:38.430 I think the difference is as well is that, if 00:21:38.430 --> 00:21:42.309 you look at the diagnostic criteria, workplace 00:21:42.309 --> 00:21:45.710 burnout is the only burnout that is recognised. 00:21:46.170 --> 00:21:49.549 So if you look at the WHO definition, which is 00:21:49.549 --> 00:21:52.609 the World Health Organisation, they only refer 00:21:52.609 --> 00:21:55.319 to workplace burnout. which I think is rubbish. 00:21:55.460 --> 00:21:58.059 And when I get into my occupational therapy hat 00:21:58.059 --> 00:22:00.400 on, when I'm looking at occupation is more than 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.460 just work, it's all the things that we have to 00:22:02.460 --> 00:22:04.660 do and want to do, is I don't understand how 00:22:04.660 --> 00:22:06.900 burnout can just happen in a workplace. Burnout 00:22:06.900 --> 00:22:09.839 can happen anywhere. And I think there is some 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:13.700 research and some stats around burnout is higher 00:22:13.700 --> 00:22:17.119 in parents with kids with additional needs. And 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:20.000 I suspect, and I've got no evidence of this one, 00:22:20.059 --> 00:22:22.920 but my kind of feeling of that is that we often 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:26.380 find ourselves in systems that we can't change. 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:29.059 So when you burn out and you get stressed or 00:22:29.059 --> 00:22:31.180 overwhelmed by something. The natural reaction 00:22:31.180 --> 00:22:32.279 is to go, well, okay, well, I'm going to step 00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:34.119 away from that. I'm going to move away from it. 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:36.559 Or if it's your job, you might think, well, I'm 00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:38.000 not going to continue in that job. I'll go get 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:40.019 another job. But when you're talking about parenting 00:22:40.019 --> 00:22:42.859 and you find yourself in systems that you can't 00:22:42.859 --> 00:22:45.440 step outside of, that's, I think, where you end 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:47.440 up with the parental burnout. It is, like you 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:51.720 say, it's the consistent stress. It's being overwhelmed 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:56.990 and your capacity. to deal with chronic stress 00:22:56.990 --> 00:22:59.609 that just keeps coming at you and you don't get 00:22:59.609 --> 00:23:02.230 a chance to recover. And there's the science 00:23:02.230 --> 00:23:04.549 -y bit behind that. But basically, we need to 00:23:04.549 --> 00:23:07.549 be able to go into a part of our autonomic nervous 00:23:07.549 --> 00:23:10.150 system to be able to recover from stress. And 00:23:10.150 --> 00:23:12.690 when you're in high levels of stress, which some 00:23:12.690 --> 00:23:14.769 of us as parents in neurodivergent families are, 00:23:15.009 --> 00:23:18.690 and for me, it was at some points I was trying 00:23:18.690 --> 00:23:22.150 to keep my son alive. It was that serious. And 00:23:22.150 --> 00:23:25.130 I was coming up against a system that was unfeeling, 00:23:25.130 --> 00:23:29.549 uncaring, unmovable, uncontactable. Yeah. Yeah. 00:23:29.670 --> 00:23:32.730 Nobody, there was no person. It was just this 00:23:32.730 --> 00:23:37.029 thing in our lives that I felt was having a huge 00:23:37.029 --> 00:23:40.269 impact on my family and our wellbeing. And I 00:23:40.269 --> 00:23:42.509 couldn't change it. And as a parent, that is 00:23:42.509 --> 00:23:45.349 terrifying. Yeah. And I feel like I've seen parents 00:23:45.349 --> 00:23:49.190 that can take any. thing for themselves like 00:23:49.190 --> 00:23:52.630 they're mistreated they're not spoken to they're 00:23:52.630 --> 00:23:56.009 ignored for themselves they can almost take that 00:23:56.009 --> 00:23:59.049 but it's one more step on it's the injustice 00:23:59.049 --> 00:24:01.769 of it all but it's the most vulnerable in our 00:24:01.769 --> 00:24:05.460 society that are being time and time again ignored. 00:24:05.779 --> 00:24:09.720 And you have less time, less energy, less capacity 00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:11.680 to have this fight. And yet you're the ones that 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:13.779 are forced to this position. But it's not even 00:24:13.779 --> 00:24:15.880 your fight. You're fighting for your children, 00:24:16.019 --> 00:24:20.700 which makes it even more burnoutable, I suppose, 00:24:20.779 --> 00:24:24.000 because you just have to keep going for them. 00:24:24.079 --> 00:24:26.119 I feel like if it was for you, you would have 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:28.980 stopped ages ago. You would, like wrongly, obviously, 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:30.740 but you'd have stopped ages ago because you'd 00:24:30.740 --> 00:24:33.029 have just accepted, you know. that that can't 00:24:33.029 --> 00:24:36.049 be done yeah of course you don't because you're 00:24:36.049 --> 00:24:38.089 fighting for the voices you're fighting for these 00:24:38.089 --> 00:24:41.150 people that you love so much and they're desperate 00:24:41.150 --> 00:24:43.670 to protect and of course that leads to burnout 00:24:43.670 --> 00:24:47.630 because you're human yeah you just it outweighs 00:24:47.630 --> 00:24:50.029 your capacity to keep going and I think it was 00:24:50.029 --> 00:24:52.809 you know as part of my burnout was that I went 00:24:52.809 --> 00:24:54.630 I got through the stuff that I needed to do and 00:24:54.630 --> 00:24:56.769 that's often what happens you're running on adrenaline 00:24:56.769 --> 00:24:59.190 and all your stress hormones are kicking in and 00:24:59.190 --> 00:25:02.440 I got through the tribunal all but kind of all 00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:04.680 but carried across the finish line by an advocate 00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:07.079 that I thought I could get through tribunal I 00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:08.900 couldn't I had to get some support in to do it 00:25:08.900 --> 00:25:12.079 and it wasn't until we got through tribunal that's 00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:15.099 when my burnout hit and boy did it hit it came 00:25:15.099 --> 00:25:17.079 in from the side and literally took me off my 00:25:17.079 --> 00:25:17.339 feet