Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education
teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything
communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson
ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged
4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in
the field answering your questions and sharing
our knowledge and experience working alongside
our beautiful young people. Let's get started.
As I did last summer holidays, I'm going to kind
of run a roundup of this academic year's podcast
episodes over the next few weeks for you to enjoy.
And maybe you missed a couple and you want to
come back. So yeah, here are my favorite clips
from the last year. Enjoy. Sorry. So I'd like
to start off by saying I think that the concept
of screen time has led us in an unhelpful direction
as a society. I think there's a lot of focus
on time, amount of time a child spends on a screen.
And I remember this from when my own children
were small, panic about how much is all right
when they're this age and how much is OK when
they're this age. And even then. I was thinking,
this doesn't quite make sense to me as a psychologist,
because a screen is only a sheet of glass, right?
That's it. And why are we putting everything
that is done through this sheet of glass together
and calling it screen time? We don't do that
with other stuff. We don't say reading, writing,
drawing, all paper time, better put that together
and limit how much paper time they have. Or,
you know, sofa time, things we do on the sofa.
We only really do that with screen time. think
that has had a detrimental effect on lots and
lots of levels but one way I think it's had a
detrimental effect is I think parents are highly
anxious about screen time teachers as well and
that can prevent them from really thinking about
what is this child actually doing here and is
it a problem or not because we think it's done
through a screen it must be a problem and I do
think we have to get much more nuanced because
I think there are things that children do on
screens which are not good for them and which
can be can raise safeguarding issues and all
sorts of things. And I think we have to be really
on that. But I think there are also lots of things
that children use or do on screens, which are
really beneficial for them, particularly children,
autistic children, children with special educational
needs, but actually all children, I think. And
because we've lumped it all together, we've got
this kind of fear of all of it. And that fear
has a few impacts. One of the impacts it has
is that often parents actually don't know very
much about what their children are actually.
doing on a screen because they're just like screen
time waste of time you know I was one parent
I talked to um her little boy was had a strict
screen time limits I think it was 30 minutes
a day or something and I said to her what's he
doing on those in those 30 minutes she said I
have no idea it's up you know I don't want to
get involved and I was like well that's a real
missed opportunity because Actually, what children
do on screens is vastly different. And there
are amazing things that you can do on a tablet,
particularly a child with learning disabilities
can do on a tablet that they cannot do in any
other context because it reduces barriers. You
know, it becomes the most, I see loads of children
for whom something they do on the tablet is the
most complex thing that they can do. They can
play, they can build houses. You can, like Minecraft,
one of my favourite games of all time. It's so
fantastic. It's an amazing game. You can build
amazing... things in minecraft and you are much
less limited by any motor problems you might
have than say lego which requires really quite
a lot of fine motor skills and for a child with
disabilities they can access that joy of making
stuff and things even if they don't have the
fine motor skills that they might need to build
their go or something. And actually that happens
on so many levels. I see children who are able
to play with other children in something like
Minecraft when they really struggle to play with
other children in the outside world. Because
there you've just, again, you reduce the barriers.
Like you can be playing with other children and
you can be at home with your mum and they might
be at home with their mum. And so you can, the
parents can really help facilitate that process.
And I've heard some amazing conversations between
children playing. something like Minecraft or
another game and you're like wow there's so much
negotiation and stuff that's going on here and
I just don't think they would be able to manage
that if that was in the quotes real world so
that's kind of one one area and also the other
thing about it is I think that this kind of fear
of screen time creates a disconnect between adults
and children because Lots of children, particularly
those with special needs, what they do on their
screen is what they love most. That's where they
feel most confident. It's where they feel most
themselves. It's where they feel really good
about themselves. And for a child who struggles
with school, life, academic stuff, it's really
important that they have a place where they feel
good about themselves. And I see that again.
I'm going to use the example of Minecraft again.
You know, in Minecraft, you can be, you are.
in control of your own world you are the person
who can make things happen you can grow stuff
you can breed animals you can make you know you
make these things happen And if you think of
how so many children with learning disabilities
or with other needs, they don't have many experiences
in their life where they're the person who makes
things happen and can see what they do and can
like, I want to do that. I'm going to do that.
Nobody's going to stop me. I'm going to do it.
They need help all the time. You know what I
mean? They always need support. And this is an
area where they don't, maybe they don't need
that. And I think that's what we feel Regulate
to Communicate does, is it is that foundation
of therapeutic practice within the classroom.
It is a therapeutic approach to learning. You
know, it's coming at it from a totally different
angle. And we really feel that if there... you
know schools are able to get this this basic
level of provision within classrooms then you
can expand on that and you can then go on and
create a really lovely more complex piece of
communication tool that you can then use to um
you know really open the lines of communication
with your students you can do that once the basics
are in place and what we're finding more and
more in all these schools we're going into whether
it be mainstream whether it be resource bases
whether it be specialists we're not we've not
even got that basic level there anymore because
staff are so overwhelmed so stressed you know
and there's a lot of very complex needs in the
classroom at the minute that are really challenging
to meet how do you meet all of these needs you
can't do an OT program for every single young
person in your class it's just not possible to
do you've got to be realistic about it and we
have to be realistic realistic as therapists
as well and we need to be realistic about what
we're expecting teaching staff to do and not
be judgmental when they've not followed our program
so we're trying to make it easy you know we see
the struggles on the ground and we you know we
feel it and we want to make it easier for teaching
staff so that they can feel like they're doing
some you know that they're making a difference
in their job and that the young people are getting
something out of it as well yeah and they've
got they've got a plan ultimately let's talk
about the system then Is there a reason why you
called it regulate to communicate and not communicate
to regulate? Let's start there. Such a good question.
Come on with the juicy question. There's no,
I mean, when we kind of started designing the
approach and the way it worked. when we are looking
at developing a lot of people come to us as speech
therapists and say we want to hear their voice
we want to get them using a communication system
it's great in the modern world but you see ipads
with all these apps and it makes it seem so accessible
it's like it's just on the tip i could get there
but in order to get there you have to deal with
the regulation first so because of what people
were coming to us and asking for which was for
this end result the end result of having a complex
communication system or having a um a young person
who is able to express themselves fluidly and
confidently we can't look at that until we do
that regulation until we get them feeling safe
and we talk a lot about on our training around
safety and around signs of safety because i think
we have to take it back to that we can get all
in our head with sensory processing and communication
all these jargon words that people fly around
Actually, what our goal is, is that our young
people come into our settings while they're at
home and they feel as safe as possible. Because
if our young people aren't feeling safe, we can't
do anything. There's not going to be any learning
going on. There's not going to be any social
interaction going on. There's not going to be
any play going on. So that regulation is also
really another word to kind of make our children
feel safe before we're expecting them to communicate
to us. And it really goes back to the theory
around Maslow's hierarchy of needs. and that
pyramid at the base of that pyramid are all your
sensory systems and if those basic needs are
not met then you're not able to work your way
through that pyramid you know with with the the
end destination being those you know really complex
functional skills and communication is much higher
up on that hierarchy of needs so that's why i
think we we sort of termed it regulated communicate
and i suppose for lots of children the reason
why communication is so different difficult comes
from proprioception needs and fine motor skills
needs you know if they're not able to know where
their fingers are in space then they're not going
to be able to use the aac or to point or sign
or to manipulate their mouth in order to make
sounds for example so it's almost preparing their
body to do those quite complex skills for our
children if they've got those regulation needs
it is exactly is and i think As we call it, regulate
to communicate. But as part of that regulation
is also about what you're doing with your voice.
So a lot of the time, the way that we use language,
whether it's verbal or symbols or sign, can really
impact our child's feeling of how safe they feel.
Because unfortunately, because of all the reasons
you've just listed, Jordan, language is a really
high demand for a lot of our kids. It's a really,
really high demand. So we're coming in with these
really high demands, even if it... we want it
to be quite nurturing or problem solving or whatever,
you know, the language we might be using. And
if we're not using our communication right, we're
not going to be able to regulate them either.
So we've kind of got to get all of that right
first. We've got to get all of those things around
the sensory system and also look at our adults
and think about what can you do with your language
to regulate the children that you're working
with. And I haven't spoken to many, if not any
parents like you. And then also you are a clinical
psychologist. So I am so intrigued as to hear
how that impacts your parenting and navigating
this world that you're in too. Yeah, yeah. From
your perspective, I don't know if you want to
do like a little introduction as to who you are
and your daughter. Yeah, no, you did a very well
introduction already. But yeah, so I'm mum to
Autumn and also her sister River, who unfortunately
doesn't get much of a look in in so many ways.
So I wanted to mention her too. She is going
to be two next week. but yeah so I'm also a clinical
psychologist and I have been for about 11 years
I think it is now and I work I don't work with
children though I work with adults so this is
yeah it's it's different working with children
I I always sort of try to avoid it in my career
path because feels so much more complicated as
I'm discovering on this journey in what way do
you think it's more complicated what do you mean
by that well I always remember you have to kind
of do a placement in training so I did I did
do six months in a child placement and I just
remember it was complicated because it's not
just one person it's the family it's the system
and that just like felt like too many too many
things to keep in mind and so I just thought
in my mind if I just work with adults kind of
keeps things more straightforward because you're
just dealing with that one person yeah because
it's not just the mental health of the child
it's the mental health of the parents who are
impacting on the child it's the schools it's
um you know any anybody that's got contact with
that child it's it became it just felt like too
much for me to keep in mind yeah and so that's
really why I kind of yeah that's interesting
Lots of the children in my class have huge teams
around them and it can be overwhelming to lead
those meetings and have those conversations when
everybody's coming at it from a slightly different
angle. It can certainly be quite overwhelming.
For those that don't know, what does clinical
psychology entail? What do you cover within that?
Because I guess knowing that will then help us
reflect on how that impacts you as a parent.
Yeah, no, clinical psychologists work with everybody
and anybody, but it's... essentially anybody
and everybody that might be experiencing some
kind of distress so I think it is as simple as
that so yes there are lots of clinical psychologists
that work in the mental health field and that's
always been my sort of journey I actually work
with NHS staff now who are in some kind of work
-related distress. But I have worked with people
who have got kind of mild, moderate, complex
mental health needs. But clinical psychologists
can work with people with health conditions.
And, you know, as we said, children, they can
work in lots of different contexts. So in the
community, in schools, in patient settings. So
we kind of cover. a wide kind of group of people,
well, everybody really. Right. So even before
your daughter came along, you had quite a good
understanding of neurodiversity and neurodevelopmental
conditions, I suppose, that would affect mental
health? I guess, if I'm really honest, it was
a small... part of our training so probably not
as much as i ought to and also i think it's the
the kind of environment has changed so much in
the last 10 years that it wasn't really on people's
radar in the same way that it is now it felt
very much like a sort of specialist area and
if you're kind of interested in neurodiversity
that that's kind of you go on placements to be
thinking about that sort of thing um you know
working with people with autism for example or
adhd or doing the assessments for people with
those conditions. And yeah, it wasn't, whereas
now it's, it's different. It's, it's very much
like, you know, it's, it's, we've got to be thinking
about it everywhere and we need to have that
awareness. And so I feel like I'm kind of learning
from my own experience with, with parenting autumn.
That's actually shaped how I've been thinking
about in my own work. So now I am actually leading
on the kind of neuro kind of affirmative changes
that we're, we're making in our service. It's
really small little things actually that we're
changing and doing. I've learned that it's those
small little things that make people feel seen,
make people feel understood, make people kind
of feel like, well, they're more supported, really,
just, you know, with their needs, their different
needs. Yeah, and I suppose that starts from even
before they're even in your door. Is the application
process accessible? Is the waiting room accessible?
Is it all accessible? I've recently, I mean,
we'll get on to you, but I've recently gone for
an autism and ADHD assessment. self and sitting
in the waiting room was so inaccessible there
was uh noise and uh yeah it just we all the weird
things going on and it just made it really accessible
the whole thing so it's just really interesting
to know that even before you even step in the
room sometimes some of those situations can be
inaccessible to adults or children um needing
that service i think nhs environments are really
rubbish for it you know they've got the terrible
lighting and you know just noises everywhere
um like one of the things we change it's so it's
so silly really but there were just posters and
pictures and everywhere and it was so busy like
it was stressing me out going into just the corridor
so it's just like strip that bag you don't need
it all um it's just overwhelming basically i
think how more accessible the world would be
if everybody thought like that because it doesn't
hurt everybody else everybody else will find
it less overwhelming too well that's right yeah
it's it's better for everybody and like oh the
one thing that really bugs me is the ticking
clocks yeah exactly so i have to I'm working
on changing that. But yeah, as I said, it is
little things sometimes, but that actually do
make a big difference. So your awareness of those,
the crucial need for that comes from your daughter.
So let's talk about her. That's really what I
want to get into today. Did you know about any
of her needs before birth? No, nothing. We had
a very typical pregnancy. Birth was fine. than
painful and yeah we were oblivious it was covid
times so we didn't um get to see other children
her age to quite the same extent um so we didn't
sort of notice that she wasn't kind of doing
the things that other typical babies would do
and we just thought she was a really easygoing
placid kind of baby we Yeah. We, we didn't notice
anything. It was only when she wasn't showing
signs of walking. That was the first sign really.
And that, to be honest with you, I was very much
of the view that lots of people say like, you
know, it will come, you know, every child's different.
Just, just wait it out. You know, she's going
to walk eventually. It'll be fine. So I was just,
I was just very much like, let's just go with
the flow. Like it's going to happen. nothing
isn't not going to happen and little did i know
i had no i just didn't know i didn't realize
we with river our second now we see the differences
are so huge but um it's just like things like
you know not reaching out for toys um and and
all kind of just engaging with the world like
she would engage with us and so i think i had
that very classic kind of view of autism or you
know that's the main kind of neurodivergent condition
that you kind of think about which is like know
no eye contact or just you know not not wanting
to respond to your voice and things like that
and she wasn't showing those sorts of signs so
um i was actually really reassured because she
was smiling at us engaging with us but actually
on reflection she wasn't engaging with the world
and yeah and then she wasn't showing any of that
internal motivation internal drive to learn And
again, I didn't really think much of it at the
time. But on reflection, when I see River and
her internal drive to learn, you know, she actually
wants to kind of learn things just very naturally.
Oh, what's that? Or, you know, let's find out
about this. Let's explore this. It just came
so naturally to her. Whereas for Autumn, it's
just not there. It's non -existent. Everything
she learns, she has to be shown. And even then,
it's not just shown once. It's shown over and
over and over again with lots of repetition.
So, yeah, it started. out with the walking and
then it's the you know lack of speech not talking
and then you know you become more and more aware
of just all the things that that children do
learn in those early stages that she just wasn't
learning she wasn't picking up. I had this mission
that I felt I had to do something about was I
had to help protect other parents against burnout
because typical kind of burnout, when people
go, oh, just do a bit more self -care, that doesn't
work. Have a bath. Have a bath, go and get a
massage. It doesn't even touch the sides. Go
and have a bit more of a sleep. You could send
me to Barbados for two weeks on my own. It wouldn't
even touch the sides. So I knew things had to
be different and I knew that I had to use kind
of my OT skills to be able to do that. But actually
the kind of very stereotypical. how do we support
people in burnout wasn't going to work for us
if we were one neurodivergent parents or if we
weren't sure whether we were not neurodivergent
as parents or when you're a typical in neurodivergent
families that that typical just take a rest was
not going to was not going to cut it yeah yeah
i mean what you're dealing with is so much more
than exhaustion isn't it Absolutely. Can you
explain a little bit about how this burnout is
different? I've certainly seen it as a teacher
with parents, usually the children that haven't
got a school place, a suitable school place,
but also parents that are fighting for diagnosis,
for EHCP, for the EHCP to then be met, for AAC
devices, for the right therapy. It's almost like
the relentlessness of the fight. You just feel
like you're getting somewhere. And then you've
just got a whole other barrier. Is that what
makes it different? Is there even more than that?
I think the difference is as well is that, if
you look at the diagnostic criteria, workplace
burnout is the only burnout that is recognised.
So if you look at the WHO definition, which is
the World Health Organisation, they only refer
to workplace burnout. which I think is rubbish.
And when I get into my occupational therapy hat
on, when I'm looking at occupation is more than
just work, it's all the things that we have to
do and want to do, is I don't understand how
burnout can just happen in a workplace. Burnout
can happen anywhere. And I think there is some
research and some stats around burnout is higher
in parents with kids with additional needs. And
I suspect, and I've got no evidence of this one,
but my kind of feeling of that is that we often
find ourselves in systems that we can't change.
So when you burn out and you get stressed or
overwhelmed by something. The natural reaction
is to go, well, okay, well, I'm going to step
away from that. I'm going to move away from it.
Or if it's your job, you might think, well, I'm
not going to continue in that job. I'll go get
another job. But when you're talking about parenting
and you find yourself in systems that you can't
step outside of, that's, I think, where you end
up with the parental burnout. It is, like you
say, it's the consistent stress. It's being overwhelmed
and your capacity. to deal with chronic stress
that just keeps coming at you and you don't get
a chance to recover. And there's the science
-y bit behind that. But basically, we need to
be able to go into a part of our autonomic nervous
system to be able to recover from stress. And
when you're in high levels of stress, which some
of us as parents in neurodivergent families are,
and for me, it was at some points I was trying
to keep my son alive. It was that serious. And
I was coming up against a system that was unfeeling,
uncaring, unmovable, uncontactable. Yeah. Yeah.
Nobody, there was no person. It was just this
thing in our lives that I felt was having a huge
impact on my family and our wellbeing. And I
couldn't change it. And as a parent, that is
terrifying. Yeah. And I feel like I've seen parents
that can take any. thing for themselves like
they're mistreated they're not spoken to they're
ignored for themselves they can almost take that
but it's one more step on it's the injustice
of it all but it's the most vulnerable in our
society that are being time and time again ignored.
And you have less time, less energy, less capacity
to have this fight. And yet you're the ones that
are forced to this position. But it's not even
your fight. You're fighting for your children,
which makes it even more burnoutable, I suppose,
because you just have to keep going for them.
I feel like if it was for you, you would have
stopped ages ago. You would, like wrongly, obviously,
but you'd have stopped ages ago because you'd
have just accepted, you know. that that can't
be done yeah of course you don't because you're
fighting for the voices you're fighting for these
people that you love so much and they're desperate
to protect and of course that leads to burnout
because you're human yeah you just it outweighs
your capacity to keep going and I think it was
you know as part of my burnout was that I went
I got through the stuff that I needed to do and
that's often what happens you're running on adrenaline
and all your stress hormones are kicking in and
I got through the tribunal all but kind of all
but carried across the finish line by an advocate
that I thought I could get through tribunal I
couldn't I had to get some support in to do it
and it wasn't until we got through tribunal that's
when my burnout hit and boy did it hit it came
in from the side and literally took me off my
feet