Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education
teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything
communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson
ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged
4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in
the field answering your questions and sharing
our knowledge and experience working alongside
our beautiful young people. Let's get started.
Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Sensory
Classroom podcast. My name is Jordan, and today
I am joined by Martha, an occupational therapist
specializing in sensory regulation and through
child -led play -based approach. I'm really excited
to speak to Martha today. As you all know, that
is very much up my alley. So when Martha reached
out to me, I jumped at the chance to speak to
her. Hi, Martha. Hi, Jordan. Thank you so much
for having me on the podcast. I'm so excited
to be here. So I'm Martha. I'm an occupational
therapist. I work mainly with children and young
people who are neurodivergent, but I also support
children who have experienced trauma in their
background. I support children in mainstream
and specialist settings, also within a clinic
setting and within their homes. So I do a bit
of a mix. I use a very, very much a child led
play based approach, focusing on nervous system
safety, sensory regulation, and always kind of
following the lead of the child so I'm really
excited to have a chat with you Jordan because
I know that's hugely what you do as well absolutely
and it and yeah it just brings so much joy to
work in that way doesn't it it's honestly the
best when you let go of all the expectations
of compliance -based approaches and you just
be with the child it's just so beautiful and
so magical and so many incredible things happen
from working in that way. This podcast has come
at a perfect time we've spent the last two podcasts
that I've recorded talking about the difference
between compliance -based and compassionate -based
approaches so it comes perfect time that we've
had that conversation now we can talk about well
what does it really look like what does a neuroaffirming
approach look like in an OT in a sensory regulation
sense. I suppose before we get into that, though...
You're starting by explaining why a person might
need your services in the first place, why they
might have sensory needs and what that really
means. Yeah, of course. So our nervous systems
are constantly taking in, filtering and responding
to sensory information from the environment and
from within our bodies. So things like sound,
light, touch. I think we're all aware of our
five main senses, but there's also three other
senses that might not be so obvious. So there's
our vestibular, proprioceptive senses, which
are very much connected to our movement and where
our body is in space. So that kind of deep pressure,
that seeking, that kind of spinning movements,
the jumping, the crashing, and those kind of
movements that we see as our proprioceptive and
our vestibular senses. And then there's also
a really interesting one, which I don't think
enough people know about, but our interoceptive
sense, which is our internal... So our body signals
that tell us when we're hungry, when we're thirsty,
when we feel pain, when we need the toilet. And
these can be really impacted. These three in
particular are really impacted for children who
are autistic, who maybe are ADHD. Typically,
our neurodivergent kids will always have some
sort of sensory processing needs. But it's important
to know as well that sensory processing needs
can exist for people who don't have a diagnosis
as well. So it's not just looking at our neurodivergent
kids. And I think when we look at the school
environment, it's so sensory rich. There's so
much noise. It's busy. There's so many expectations
to follow. They're expected to sit at desks that
might be uncomfortable. And when we look at that
in context, I think a lot of children struggle
with sensory processing. within the school environment
because of how harsh that environment can be
unless we make accommodations to support them.
So it's important to know that we all have sensory
preferences. You know, there's no right or wrong
way to process sensory input, but there are children
who might be more susceptible to having sensory
needs, particularly our autistic kids. Yeah,
because sensory needs, we're all sensory beings.
It's a human, very human thing to be able to
read and prefer certain sensory things. I think
maybe that brings with it a little bit of confusion
and muddiness to the conversation that everybody's
autistic or everybody has sensory needs. And
yes, everybody has sensory preferences. But it's
the impact of those sensory needs on our autistic
learners or on our neurodivergent learners, on
our premature baby learners or those with anything
muscular, I suppose. It's the impact on their
life, why they might need that even more extra
input than the average child does. However, as
you perfectly put, every child benefits from.
individualized approach certainly but even whole
class approaches can be really beneficial can't
they Exactly. And I'm always saying that actually
these supports that tend to work for our neurodivergent
kids actually work for the whole class because
it is just things like using sensory tools and
flexible seating and reducing the expectations
and reducing the demands that actually supports
all of our learners. Because when we look at
the school day as a whole, there are so many
demands throughout the whole day, not just learning
demands, sensory demands, communication demands,
social demands. so much onto our kids every single
day and expecting them to show up in the same
way every single day when we know as well that
fluctuating capacity is such a huge thing for
our neurodivergent kids. But I think what's important
to remember when we're thinking about sensory
needs, like you said, it is the impact of those.
A lot of us will have sensory preferences, but
it won't impact every aspect of our day. Whereas
for our autistic kids, they might experience
sensory input more intensely than the average
person. So it might make certain sounds or textures
or environments feel really overwhelming for
them. So you might notice that a child is really
sensitive to noise and they're constantly putting
their hands over their ears. Or you might notice
that it's having like that impact after school
and they're having those after school meltdowns
after holding it together all day. They might
find the labels on their clothes uncomfortable,
so you might need to look at getting them some
scene -free clothing or, you know, removing the
labels. But then it's also important to remember
that some kids might need more sensory input
so they have a higher threshold in order to feel
regulated, in order to feel focused, to feel
connected to their bodies. So if you think of
the children who are constantly on the go, so
the ones who are jumping, they're crashing, they're
spinning, they're running, I think we all have
seen those kids in a classroom before where you
just are kind of like... They're going to hurt
themselves, but they actually need so much more
input than the average person because they have
a higher threshold for sensory input. And it's
also really important to remember, it's quite
interesting because some kids might be sensory
seeking for certain inputs. So you might see
that they're constantly jumping and crashing,
kind of seeking that vestibular and proprioceptive
input that they get from that. But then they
might be really sensitive to things like noise,
to things like food textures. You know, we know
that ARFID is a really big thing. for for neurodivergent
children and food textures can be really difficult
for them they might only have like five or six
safe foods and typically we see that that's like
the crunchy foods the foods that's consistent
the cracker that you get out of a packet that
always looks the same rather than our fruit and
veg which might always be different you know
a strawberry is never the same strawberry whereas
a cracker is always the same cracker so it's
important to remember that your child might be
seeking certain inputs and then they might be
avoiding others. So it's really helpful if you
can to have an OT do a sensory profile for your
child so that you're not just guessing. I mean,
I think parents have a really good idea of what
their child needs anyway and what I find is you
often get parents naturally making accommodations
for their kids so you know they're not bringing
them to noisy or busy areas they're letting them
jump and crash off the couch onto the cushions
whereas in school those needs might go unmet
because they're not having those people making
minor adjustments for them all the time. Which
is why it's so important that teachers and schools
need to be involving the parents and listening
to them. I completely agree. Even if our parents
don't understand why those things are happening,
they are an absolute expert in their child's
sensory needs. And it is crucial for the schools
to involve and believe the parents when they're
saying they're having meltdowns at home. So not
just assume that it's something that's happening
in the home. And I see and hear that so often.
I don't know if you do as well. But for schools
to believe the parents that maybe it's something
that is happening at school too. actually they're
holding it together all day and then crashing
at our home for whatever reason is that something
that you experience too? I see that all the time
and I'm actually I was going to talk about that
today anyway but it's something we hear all the
time where parents are seeing this these huge
meltdowns after school they're seeing the anxiety
on Sunday evening how they're actually much more
relaxed during the holidays when they don't have
those demands of school and what can be so damaging
is when parents go to the school and say look
my child is having these meltdowns at home I
wonder if there's something happening in the
school day if there's ways that we can support
them and school can be so quick to say well we
don't see that here and it must be it must be
a problem at home and I think what that does
is when you don't believe a parent you're invalidating
their experiences and you're kind of pushing
that blame back on home when we know that the
nervous system can often It's not just one trigger
that leads to the meltdown. It's usually an accumulation
of triggers throughout the day. So it might be
the school bell in the morning and then not understanding
maths and then not liking lunch and then not
being picked to play with on the playground.
And then they're holding it all together. They're
not letting those emotions out because they've
learned to mask from a very young age because
children are really smart and they learn from
a very young age what behavior is acceptable
and what isn't. When we see those masking behaviors
where they look like they're coping and to the
untrained eye, that's what it looks like. You
know, they look like they're thriving in school,
they're doing well academically. And it's typically
those high masking, like people pleaser type
presentation that gets missed often. girls get
missed because of that because they're so socially
aware and they're so aware of how others perceive
them that they will learn how to mask really
well and maybe more expectations on girls to
be still and solitary play and play in a certain
way whereas boys it's maybe more accepted for
for them to be rough and tumbling for longer
maybe unfairly too right absolutely and i think
even within the diagnostic process of diagnosing
autism and adhd girls so often get missed because
they don't fit that textbook presentation of
how autism looks and we know that autism doesn't
have a look but unfortunately there is still
that perception of that kind of the Sheldon Cooper
type of autism that that that's how people think
about it and I see it so often where girls get
missed and then they end up in school burnout
and the school is so confused because they're
like well they were amazing when they were in
school kind of thing like they were coping they
were in lessons they seem to have friends and
I think that's the other thing about school is
that friendships can look like they're working
from the outside because often the teacher is
trying to keep an eye on the playground with
like multiple groups playing in different ways
and I think autistic girls can have a very good
way of masking and looking like they're fitting
in but actually what they're doing is just copying
a lot of what they've learned from the other
girls in their class. And that makes them incredibly
vulnerable, doesn't it? When they're coming into
their teenagehood and they're still copying those
behaviors, they can be incredibly vulnerable
to be very susceptible to quite dangerous or
damaging behaviors because they're not able to
maybe be as autonomous or think about what's
safe in their body. And we don't want our girls
to be in that position. No, and I think it's
also what it does to their self -esteem and their
sense of... self -confidence and how they see
themselves and how they perceive themselves.
Because when we don't allow children to be the
authentic version of themselves and they're constantly
having to put on that mask, that has a real cost
to their mental health in the long term. And
we know it from listening to so much lived experience
and autistic adults who have come out and, you
know, say how traumatic school was for them.
And I think it's really important that we take
that into account. that lived experience into
account because I think the research is still
very much behind in understanding how traumatic
school can be for these kids. And because of
all the social expectations, the one -way approach
of learning, you know, very much sitting at a
desk, quiet, following instructions, not doing
anything out of order. I think that that way
of learning is not how most people learn. So
unfortunately... I think the school system lets
a lot of children down because they're not encouraging
different ways of learning, different ways of
being, different ways of playing, you know, and
going back to parents not being believed. I think
that that validation piece is so important, like
telling a school what you're seeing at home,
how you feel it might be connected to school
and then not being believed. It just means that
parents have to fight relentlessly hard to get
any support in place for their child. And what
I see so often is that children don't get the
support until they reach burnout. And that's
just not a proactive way of supporting our most
vulnerable children. It just creates more pressure
on the system long term, which I don't know if
they... They realize that because they're not
seeming to kind of catch up with it and do anything
about it. But really, if we were proactive with
how we support kids, then we wouldn't have all
of these other issues like school burnout. hundreds
and thousands of kids who can't attend school
because it's been so traumatic for them who then
end up in mental health services who end up unemployed
all of these things because of how school has
let them down and didn't meet their needs i think
unfortunately the individuals are aware of the
problem like teachers and senkos are aware of
the need in their in their school it comes down
to lack of training lack of budget lack of resources
lack of spaces lack of people you know huge yeah
so what I mean when I say that it has it we haven't
caught up it's at a government level you know
we haven't we haven't looked at adapting the
environment in the right way we haven't looked
at adapting the curriculum like we are still
expecting kids to do exams from such a young
age to take away play from such a young age like
we're putting more and more pressure on these
kids every single year and you know the government
aren't doing anything when from a nervous system
point of view what we understand about the nervous
system and about neurodivergence I think that
yeah it's all of the teachers on the ground are
seeing it and it's it's a really difficult time
to be a teacher now because as well as believing
the parents is there anything else that teachers
could either be looking out for or putting into
their classroom that could support this within
their control Yeah, so I think there's a lot
of things that are within the control of the
classroom. You know, there's so many things out
of our control, like the size of the class, the
needs of the class, the curriculum, all of these
things. But things that are within our control
are how we speak to children and how we speak
about children, how they hear us speaking about
them. I think our language is really important
when it comes to supporting these children because
Often what I'm hearing from the autistic kids
that I work with, from the ADHD kids that I work
with, is that they're constantly being labeled,
whether it's disruptive or bold or naughty or
distracting. And all of these labels over time
chip away at that child's sense of self and their
self -esteem. And I think there are so many ways
that we can... connect with children without,
you know, putting these huge expectations on
them that can make them feel much better about
themselves and that can affirm them and validate
them rather than do the opposite. And there's
so many things that we can do in the classroom.
I mean, I'm always advocating for unrestricted
access to sensory tools, you know, having access
to fidgets, to flexible seating that the child
can use, yoga balls, beanbags, all of these things
that we know. provide the child with that level
of sensory input and movement that they need
I think also reducing the shame around needing
accommodations and so often it feels like the
goal for The teacher might be to eventually move
away from using the accommodations or from needing
the accommodations, but actually those are access
tools. And so often I see it where we start putting
things in place and the child starts thriving
and responding really well to the support. People
are like, oh, well, they're doing really well.
We can take these things away. And then you have
like an even worse crash after that because they
got used to having the support. It was really
working for them. And then it's taken away. And
it happens all the time as well with, you know,
a teaching assistant will be assigned to a child
who needs it. They start doing really well because
they've got the teaching assistant and then the
hours are reduced and it's kind of taken away.
And then the fallout of that is just really difficult
to manage. But I really think the best thing
that we can do that doesn't require much training
or funding, it's just about prioritizing connection
and felt safety before placing any demands. And
we know that there are so many children with
PDA profile now who are really struggling in
school because of all of those demands, all of
the kind of... adult -led learning demands, the
social demands, also just the internal demands
of like every time they need the toilet or every
time they feel too hot or every time they feel
pain, anything that feels like a demand. We know
that the school environment is so challenging
for children with PDA and so often they end up
having to come out of school because of how traumatic
the environment is for them. So I always say
I think connection is something that's free.
how we speak to kids is something that, you know,
it might not feel like those small throwaway
comments like, oh, you were able to do it yesterday.
Why can't you do it today? Don't. It might feel
like that's not doing anything to that child.
But over time, when they're constantly being
told that, when they're constantly being told,
if you don't finish it, you'll have to stay in
at lunch, or I'm going to take away your playtime,
or I'm going to give you five stars on your reward
chart if you do it. And all of these kind of
like compliance -based approaches, what that
does to a child long term is it just makes them
feel like they're not good enough. And so I think
when we can take the time to truly connect with
a child, you know, incorporate their interests,
ask them about what they like, play with them.
You know, I think what that does to a child is
it places a light inside of them and it tells
them that their authentic way of being is enough.
And that they don't have to kind of put that
mask on. And it's okay if they aren't able to
do something that they were able to do yesterday,
because we understand that capacity fluctuates
across the day, across the week, across the month.
For so many reasons, it fluctuates because of
the sensory demands, it fluctuates because of
energy levels, because of tiredness, illness,
so many things. If something's going on at home,
if there's been a change to their routine, if
they're moving house, all of these things have
such a huge impact on a child's capacity. capacity
to show up and I think as adults we're so good
at giving each other grace like you know if our
friend tells us I know we were meant to meet
at the weekend but I actually have a lot on and
I can't do it can we postpone we're always so
you know we're happy to do that whereas when
it's a child We just expect them to be able to
show up every single day with the same capacity
and with the same ability to kind of produce
and be productive at that level. And it's just
not how the nervous system works. And I often
think that we put so much more pressure on children
than we do. on adults because as adults we do
have the ability to say in work oh actually I'm
really busy at the minute I can't take on another
project or can we push that meeting to next week
but if it's a child who needs to get their homework
done and it's not done because of so many reasons
then they don't get that same grace and I think
that's really really sad that we just place these
things. And it almost gets harder and worse for
the learners the further up the school they get.
I feel like when you're talking about connection
and playing individualized approaches, I feel
like early years do that on the whole quite well.
And then every year it seems to get less and
less. And then when you're looking at year four,
five and six, there's actually very little individualization
and accommodation for the most part. Is there
anything that Key Stage 2 teachers could be doing
to kind of improve? prove that a little bit yeah
I think like what I said just having movement
having play having sensory tools just weaved
into the learning environment I see so often
that you know children are being told to go to
the sensory room to regulate or you know they're
told that they'll get play at break time when
they can go outside but actually when we're pushing
regulation outside of the classroom rather than
looking at it within the classroom. We're missing
the whole point really because so much of the
child's day is spent in the classroom. Like if
you look at the six or seven hour school day,
they're only on the playground for such a small
percentage of that. So really when we talk about
regulation and kind of creating these neuroaffirming
classrooms, we're talking about things that can
be done within the classroom and not just seeing
regulation as an extra or you'll get your movement
break. after you finish your learning or you'll
get your sensory tool as a reward. We need to
be looking at weaving these supports into the
learning. It needs to be part of learning rather
than seen as an extra or as a reward. And I think
that's where sometimes schools get it wrong because
they are using sensory and movement as a reward
rather than an access tool. And that's really
dangerous and really damaging because it's, you
know, if we're just... giving the child the tool
after they've done what we've asked them to do
and, you know, they've complied with what we've
asked them to do, then that's not access and
that's not inclusion. And I think as well, I
mean, there's been a huge amount of talk about
it now with the white paper and, you know, true
inclusion, what it looks like and, you know,
that they're pushing for like putting every child
in a mainstream school. And kind of expecting
them to cope when actually inclusion is about
meaningful participation, emotional safety, belonging
and access. And if a student is physically present
in a mainstream classroom, but constantly overwhelmed
because of the noise, because of the demands,
it's leading to dysregulation or they're just
masking to get through the day. That's not inclusion.
Inclusion happens when all of these supports
are happening within the classroom with no expectation.
You know, they don't have to meet an expectation
to get their sensory tool or to get the flexible
seating or to have lower demands or to have executive
functioning strategies to support them in their
learning. Access to AAC or assistive technology,
you know, those aren't things that they should.
they should work for you know that should just
be automatically included and I think what I
see so often is how accommodations are framed
and how that impacts how children use them because
often I'll see teachers almost like they don't
do it on purpose, obviously, but like, you know,
singling out the child that needs ear defenders
and they'll they'll say in front of the whole
class, just put your ear defenders on now or
whatever it is. And of course, that child is
not going to want to use them now because you've
just singled them out. You've made them look
different. They already know they're different.
And now you've just made it more obvious and
brought attention to it. And we know what other
kids can be like when they hear when they hear
an adult saying that child needs their ear. defenders.
They say that child is different. That child
doesn't deserve to be included with everyone
else. I know that's not what the teacher is thinking.
Of course, it's not. But that's how our neurodivergent
children perceive it. And that's why we have
so many kids, particularly girls, particularly
teenagers, and I guess anything from year two
up that no longer want to use their accommodations
that they know help, but that makes them look
different so from a young age I would love from
reception that if teachers were just framing
accommodations as something that's helpful for
all of us you know not telling a particular child
to go and get their fidget tool or to go and
get their yoga ball to sit on that we're going
to say something like okay class like we're going
to start a learning task let's everyone get comfortable
in whatever way that looks like for us some people
might need ear defenders some people might need
a fidget tool some people might want to sit on
the carpet instead of at their desk whatever
it is that you're never kind of like signaling
kids out because it becomes so much harder to
reverse that mindset the older kids get and that
comes along with also if a child that you don't
think needs something chooses something like
that believe them maybe they need that today
unless proven otherwise you know unless you know
give them a chance to show you that they they
might need that today we all have days where
we things are a bit too loud or bright or or
overwhelming we don't know what's happening at
home all the time you know I think when you make
it accessible to everyone the kids that need
it will use it and it will work and the kids
who don't might give it a try and it will be
novel and nice for a few days but if they don't
need it they're not going to keep seeking it
and I think we we have such little faith in children
sometimes because I think adults will be so quick
to say like I've had schools that I've worked
in and they'll say oh we can't give this child
a yoga ball to sit on because then every child
will be the yoga ball and actually it's the adults
that create those mindsets because I worked in
reception classrooms with an autistic boy and
I introduced a yoga ball and All of the children
were so accepting because they knew that this
kid needed a yoga ball because prior to the yoga
ball, he was crawling under the desk, crying
for most of the day, not engaging. And once he
had the yoga ball, he was sitting and bouncing
and engaging in the lesson. And the kids were
like, well, he needs the yoga ball. You know,
like they understood. So I think adults can be
quick to... to maybe place their own assumptions
onto a child. But actually children can be very
accepting if we introduce these concepts from
a young age. Yeah, it's the difference between
equality and equity, right? Inclusion isn't that
everybody has the same. That isn't what we're
saying. We're not saying that everybody needs
a fidget. We're not saying that everybody needs
ear defenders. They just have to be accessible.
That's what we're saying. And to believe them,
I suppose, like we were saying at the beginning,
to believe the parents when they're saying that
their child is struggling. We also need to believe
the child when they're either showing us or telling
us, because they can't always tell us, but sometimes
it's obvious their body is telling us that they
need an accommodation. that we believe them that's
ultimately what inclusion and neuroaffirming
practice is right absolutely i think that feeling
of being believed i think even as adults you
know how you feel when somebody validates you
and when somebody shuts you down and how the
two feelings are so different. I think something
else that I really want to mention when it comes
to inclusion is I think school policies have
such a huge part to play as well. I know that
this is something that's out of the control of
the classroom teacher, but it's something that
I think we all need to be advocating for because
unfortunately... School policies are unfairly
discriminating against our most vulnerable students,
our neurodivergent students, our black and brown
students, our students who've experienced trauma,
our students living in poverty. And for me, I
think a neuro -inclusive environment has to include
intersectionality because we know that these
are the students who are getting excluded because
of their behavior, who are getting punished,
who are told that they're not good enough. And
I think that is such an important part of...
inclusivity as well and yeah I think policies
can really hold children back because it really
I think these children that often have these
nervous system response which looks like challenging
behavior to the kind of untrained eye and then
What happens is this child gets excluded or they
get suspended for a few days and then they're
expected to come back into the exact same environment.
Right. And they're expected to have learned their
lesson. But actually, if we're not adapting the
environment, if we're not making changes to how
we speak to children, how we speak about children,
if we're just expecting them to come back to
that kind of really sensory rich, overwhelming
environment, then we're just going to get into
a cycle of like this child constantly. getting
distressed and then getting excluded or learning
how to mask, but then having those meltdowns
at home. Absolutely. There needs to be something
in the policy that makes the expectations individualized
because what looks like regulation for one child
can look like very destructive behavior for another.
The expectations need to be equitable as well.
And maybe it is just the wording in the policy.
of what that looks like for each individual and
what the expectations are for each individual
not remembering your pen could be perfectly acceptable
rule for one child but completely inappropriate
for another it shouldn't be as um black and white
as that there should be a label to be clear but
but their flexibility in that for that individualized
approach so that then teachers and senkos and
the senior leadership team can make those reasonable
adjustments to support the family to support
the learner to thrive and learn in school rather
than to be physically excluded from the space
often yeah and i would i would just love if there
was a better understanding around you know when
we do see those big behaviors whether it's throwing
or kicking or screaming or whatever it is the
meltdowns a child This is a child who's been
holding it together all day. A child who's been
managing sensory demands, learning expectations,
social expectations, rigid compliance -based
rules. They're not choosing to react like that,
you know? And I think so often I hear the phrase
as well, like they went from zero to 100. And
actually when we look at the day as a whole within
context of their neurotype, within their context
of their sensory processing needs, and you look
at what they've... managed within the school
day within the week it's not like it it makes
so much sense from a nervous system lens why
they're having this distress this level of distress
so I think what what I what I really advocate
for is rather than the big moments of regulating
children like sending them to the playground
or to the sensory room that we're actually having
these micro moments of regulation throughout
the day within the classroom where the child
spends most of their day, because that's often
far more beneficial than one visit to the sensory
room. So being proactive with the use of our
strategies and not waiting until they're already
dysregulated because. I think so often I see
goals that are written and it's like the child,
when dysregulated, will choose a regulation tool
themselves independently. And it's like, well,
no, their thinking brain has gone offline. Like
logic is not going to work. Reason is not going
to work. They're not able to choose a tool to
regulate themselves in that moment. They need
co -regulation with an adult who can attune to
their needs, who can validate their emotions,
who can sit with them in the feelings and not...
expect for it to end straight away because they've
asked them to go and take a deep breath like
when a child is throwing a table they're not
they're not going to be able to take a deep breath
and regulate because it hasn't whatever happened
before they threw the table is not the reason
they're dysregulated it's multiple triggers throughout
the day and multiple sensory stressors throughout
the day that has led to that moment with no buffer
time to kind of let them naturally regulate so
I just think those micro moments of regulation
within the classroom are so important and not
waiting until we're seeing the big displays.
And you absolutely can timetable those in. Actually,
sometimes there needs to be more than what we
could ever timetable in. It's about reading what
those individual learners need in that moment
too, isn't it? It's both. Yeah, and I think,
you know, whole school movement breaks are so...
helpful for so many kids you know for our neurotypical
kids they work wonders because they get this
burst of movement and then they're ready to kind
of focus and engage in their learning however
for for our neurodivergent kids particularly
our PDAers and so those who have this persistent
drive for autonomy if they're being told when
to have their movement break and what it should
look like because usually a whole class movement
break will be led by the teacher it will be shown
what they should do for a PDAer that's not going
to be regulating that's actually going to be
a threat to their nervous system and so I think
whole school movement breaks should be in every
school timetable and should be something that
we are incorporating but I think for our neurodivergent
kids they need a different approach they might
need lots of movement throughout the day in a
way that they can kind of have autonomy over
that and decide what it feels like in their body
when they need to move because that's another
thing that I think in school sometimes when it
comes to our interoceptive awareness in school
children are told when they should use the toilet
when they should be hungry when they can have
a drink of their water when they can move their
bodies and actually what that does is it tells
a child not to trust their own body like it tells
them I have this signal that tells me I need
the toilet, but the teacher tells me I should
have gone at break time. But my bladder feels
the pressure of needing the toilet. And it's
kind of like telling children that adults know
their bodies better than they do themselves.
So I really try and encourage. building helping
children build the awareness of when they need
to move their bodies when they need the toilet
when they need a drink do they need a crunchy
snack like can we be more flexible with allowing
children to let us know when their body needs
something and I know that's really tricky in
a mainstream class because you've got 30 kids
with different needs different interoceptive
systems and it It is really hard. But I do think
for our neurodivergent kids, we need to make
those accommodations. And I think as well, like
whole school, whole class toilet breaks are really
overwhelming for our neurodivergent kids because
they're noisier, they're busy, there's more smells,
there's more sounds. And actually, that might
mean that they actually are physically unable
to go because their body is experiencing a stress
response. So I think every school timetable.
needs to have certain things that are for, you
know, the whole class, movement breaks. I also
really think it's important to not just have
movement breaks, but to have choice breaks. So
I think, you know, most schools are offering
movement breaks, which is amazing. All of our
kids need more movement. But I think it's really
helpful to have choice breaks as well, where
children can maybe choose to do a more calming
activity, something like a sand tray or Play
-Doh or reading for pleasure or something where...
They can just switch off from learning. It doesn't
have to be big movement, but it's something else
that really helps with their regulation. And
so sometimes a child will need a break from learning
to be creative rather than always needing to
move. So I'd love to see more of that, seeing
more choice breaks. And if they've got choices,
as long as they're not already dysregulated,
that could help with the PDAs as well, because
they're feeling some autonomy over listening
to their body. What does my body need? And then
making a choice. That sounds like a really wonderful
thing. Yeah, exactly. And I think as well, like
transitions are so hard for so many neurodivergent
kids. And when we think about the school day,
there's so many like micro transitions, like
transitions are happening all the time. So there's
the big ones like coming into school. That's
a huge. difficult transition particularly for
our neurodivergent kids because they're leaving
their safe space with their safe people their
parents and coming into a very different environment
with different expectations with lots of people
lots of noise lots of unpredictability and I
think what can be really helpful to support that
transition is to have a bit of a soft start in
the morning so time where a child can ease into
the day and have support to transition from home
to school. So it might look like low demand play
opportunities for the first 15 to 20 minutes
of the morning, you know, access to preferred
books, sand trays, like I said, coloring, Lego,
anything that's kind of like really nice and
regulating that doesn't kind of upregulate the
nervous system. just allows them to come in without
immediately having expectations placed on them.
I think that can be really helpful. But also
thinking about the transitions within the school
day, like just switching, constant attention
switching between different lessons and how our
neurodivergent learners will need more time to
kind of process. ending one task and moving on
to another because as we know particularly our
autistic students most of them will have a monotropic
learning style where they like to deep dive into
an area of interest for a prolonged period of
time and it becomes quite hard to switch their
attention from that task so can we look at maybe
accommodating them by giving them more interest
-led learning where there's less pressure in
terms of time I think those time pressures particularly
for PDAers is just a huge demand like if you
have something and it it can be something that
helps other students like having a visual timer
or like a song that goes off when when they're
meant to finish that can be really helpful for
like the majority of the class but for for our
children with PDA that just is a huge demand
so yeah I think there's it's hard because There's
so many different needs within the classroom,
but I think there are things that we can do to
support the majority of children and then have
those specific accommodations for children who
might need a little bit of extra support. I think
that's a really great advice. It's often a question
I get in my DMs is I know that what some children
need, but the other children need the opposite.
How do you manage that? And I think that's great
advice to focus on the majority as far as the
timetable structure goes, but then make those
reasonable adjustments for those that that doesn't
work for. That is the only answer, isn't it?
Yeah, because I think we know that the majority
of the children can cope with more. Even in special
education. Yeah, exactly. So I think if we...
If we know that they can cope with more, we can
often leave them to do things on their own and
give. the child that needs the support and a
little bit of extra attention. It becomes incredibly
hard if the child who does have high support
needs doesn't have a teaching assistant who can
kind of support with all of those. I mean, the
teaching assistants, they're just amazing because
they don't just support with learning. They're
supporting the emotions, the regulation, the
sensory needs. They're doing so much to keep
that child regulated within the school day. But
if you don't have that and you do have a class
who... Yes, you know that they need a little
bit of extra support. They all have different
needs, but you have one particular child who
has significantly higher needs. Sometimes it
might be that you give the rest of the class
an activity that you know that they can do without
much support so that you can give that child
a little bit of extra attention. But I mean,
it's really hard in mainstream classrooms, which
is why I think these like the things that we
advocate for, the sensory tools, the flexible
seating. adapting the demands. I love the use
of strewing as well when we kind of put out lots
of different activities and let the child be
curious about what they want to engage in. That
can be really helpful for PDAers as well so that
it's not like they're not being told what they
need to do at a particular time. They're just
kind of allowed to explore what they're feeling
in that moment. And I think having a classroom
where you are implementing all of these strategies,
you'll quickly find that actually it works for
most children. Yeah, and it becomes a muscle
as a teacher. It can become overwhelming at first
when you're putting all of this in play. But
it does become a muscle that once you're using
these methods, once you're individualizing sensory
tool needs, once you're using different language,
once you're... offering choices in a different
way. If you focus on one of those, maybe like
every fortnight, by the end of the year, you'll
just naturally be doing it is something that
I find is a muscle. Don't expect to not feel
overwhelmed by this as the lead adult in a classroom
right away, because you're making a big change
to your language, your whole classroom ethos.
But that doesn't mean that it's not right and
that you shouldn't. carry on you will get it
will get easier you will get better at it yeah
and I think it's important to remember that all
of us as professionals like the learning journey
never ends you know like if we all did what we
were taught at university then none of us would
have evolved into being the kind of neuroaffirming
practitioners that we are now and I think it's
about learning as we go adapting to the needs
of the children learning about new ways of doing
things validating different forms of communication,
kind of trying to move away from those compliance
-based approaches that many of us were taught
in. And unfortunately, you know, it's still pretty
rife in most schools across the UK and I think
worldwide, really, the use of compliance -based
approaches. And I think when we use compliance
-based approaches, yes, they might work in the
kind of short term, as in... most children will
kind of just get on with it and do the task because
you've asked them to but what's happening long
term is the build -up of dysregulation happening
over time and children feeling like they just
can't be themselves and when we move towards
more connection -based work and you know giving
the children more freedom and more autonomy and
moving away from reward charts and punishments
and I think what is what's interesting as well
is like When the compliance -based approach doesn't
work and you get that immediate resistance from
the child who won't comply and who will storm
out of the class, there's nowhere to go from
that. Like, you know, if there's a child that's
persistent and keeps resisting your compliance
-based approach, you're just going to get into
this kind of like power imbalance where you keep
trying to power over the child by threatening
to take away whatever it is. And they're just
going to keep... going more and more and getting
more dysregulated whereas when we use our connection
-based approach and when a child tells us they're
not able to do something whether they say it
with their words or with their actions when we
meet them where they're at so we understand from
a nervous system point of view there's a reason
for this they're not doing it because they're
trying to give me a hard time they're not doing
this because they're defiant they're genuinely
unable to do this task in this moment And there's
so many reasons why that happens. You know, it's
not a choice. And I think that can be the biggest
mindset shift when we start to tell ourselves,
okay, this child is not choosing to do this.
They're not choosing to defy me. But if you keep
using the compliance -based approach, then they
will keep... trying to overpower you because
they feel like you don't understand them so I
think when we use that connection -based approach
you actually show a child that you are going
to give them that unconditional positive regard
no matter what it doesn't matter if they do their
learning it doesn't matter if they do the tasks
that they were meant to but you are going to
be there for them because you care about them
because you like them you want to spend time
with them you want them to feel happy at school
and It's not always about getting the learning
done. Sometimes if all you do is co -regulate
a child through a difficult moment, then you've
done your job. But I think when we, it's hard
because obviously the pressure comes from above
and you have to have certain things ticked and,
you know, you have to work in box. But then if
they're just regulated, you're not going to do
those things anyway. It's too easy to say, oh,
but we've got to do this, this and this and think,
yeah, but they can't do it. They can't learn
their best. They can't. uh learn new skills they
can't socialize and do all of those things that
you need them to do unless they're regulated
exactly it has to be first that's why regulation
just has to come before everything else and that's
why I always always always prioritize my relationship
with a child before anything else you know I
want to get to know them I want to know their
interests I want to play with them I want to
learn how they communicate and that comes before
anything else because a child who doesn't feel
safe with you a child who doesn't feel like they
can be authentic with you you're never going
to get the you know you're never going to achieve
what that child deserves because your you know
relationships have to come before everything
else a child who isn't regulated isn't going
to learn I see parents falling into that compliance
-based approach trap as well. They might see
something online or try and copy the school model
of reward charts, chore charts, and then they're
wondering why it's not working and why their
children are having meltdowns and dysregulation.
promising a magazine at the end of the week or
they're promising a trip and then that's being
taken away whatever it is they're doing and it
and it's not working and that can lead to real
frustration as well for both and it can feel
really personal so I think everything you said
about a connection based led approach as well
kind of works in the home too and we're coming
up to the summer holidays now the kids are going
to have six weeks out of school can we talk about
regulation in the home as well to support some
parents listening yeah of course so I mean I'm
always going to say regulation through play is
the best and that that looks different for every
child as every child will have different play
preferences different things that they that they
like, that they don't like, different movement
preferences, but using the kind of the child's
led approach where you follow the child's lead
to see what they're interested in, see what they're
curious about, see, because I think so often.
Parents are so busy. You're carrying such a huge
mental load and it's hard to find the time to
play with your child. And I'm not expecting you
to spend the whole six weeks every day playing
with your child. But I think there's lots of
nice things that you can do that don't cost a
lot of money that you can just do at home with
things that you already have. Like for me, I
just love sensory play because you can make it.
So cheap and cheerful. You know, you just need
a tray or a bucket or something that you can
put things in. And then I like having different
things that you can swap in and out, like dried
lentils, dried rice, things that are literally
in your cupboard. And maybe you have some kinetic
sand at home already. I really like Orbeez as
well, or just water. Water and soap is an amazing,
amazing way to have those kind of like sensory
play opportunities. And then just adding a sponge,
a jug, a bowl, any like little plastic toys that
your child might have, little cars or little
animals or whatever it is. And just let them
play. be involved in that play and it doesn't
have to be that you're you're being like this
amazing like full -on version of yourself you
can just sit with them and play and maybe use
like some nice little gestalts like let's wash
the animals let's squeeze like all of these kind
of things that you can do to also help their
communication but that is such a beautiful way
to connect with children I think when we can
connect through play we just see a different
version of children and this goes for teenagers
I was gonna say that as well I was a foster carer
of teenagers and play looks different but they
all play they all love it I mean like wrestling
running in the playground running up the stairs
just having fun following their interests yeah
exactly and I think music dancing it's just having
an interest in yeah what music they're into what
programs they're into what characters they're
in to going to the cinema maybe that's play to
them and really joining in them in that properly
you know not just tokenistic interest but real
interest in what they're interested in yeah and
I think that's the big thing I think when young
people get to a certain age so that kind of teenager
age and I mean It's such a tough time for teenagers
because they start, you know, their puberty and
hormones and all of these things going on in
their bodies. And they do start to push the boundaries
at home. And there's a lot more maybe resistance
in that relationship. And it can be really frustrating
for parents and for the young person because
they've gone from being this kind of maybe child
that was perceived as cute and playful and now
they're perceived as this young person who kind
of bangs the door and the parent doesn't know
how to connect with them anymore and what I see
so often is because I work with lots of teenagers
and young and kind of like the 12 to 18 years
old they love to play they just need someone
who is willing to bring that playful side out
of them again and a safe environment in order
they feel like they can do that Exactly. A safe
environment where they feel like their interests
are valid, their interests are accepted. And
sometimes parents will come to me and they're
like, well, they're really into anime and I don't
have a clue about anime. I don't have a clue
about anime, but I've got lots of students who
are really obsessed with anime. So maybe it's
that you sit down and you do some sketching of
anime characters together. Whatever it is, you
ask them to teach you about their interests.
You don't have to know anything about it. And
I think that's sometimes where we as... adults
can feel a bit stuck because we're like well
we don't actually know anything about that area
so we don't want to embarrass ourselves because
they're going to be like well you don't know
anything about it but actually if we get them
to teach us it shows them that we're interested
in what they're interested in and exactly like
you said for teenagers it might be just sitting
and watching a youtube clip or them yeah or them
playing a video game and genuinely celebrating
them when they win or commiserating with them
when they don't just really being present and
and it really can be five ten minutes a day and
really really connecting with those micro moments
of connection are so important I think It doesn't
have to be a scheduled block of an hour or 30
minutes, or it doesn't have to be these fancy
days out where you bring them to an expensive
activity. It can literally be things that you
have in your cupboard. Maybe it's that you decide
over the summer that you're going to paint the
gate outside together or a garden or something
like that, that it's like just something you
can do in the house with materials you already
have. Like it doesn't have to be. I know that.
I often talk about like big fancy equipment,
like our swings and our, like our tunnels and
our yoga balls and all of those things, but we
don't need any of that. We can actually use so
much of what we already have. Tape. Tape is another
one that I love. Just like. colored masking tape
you can use it for so many things you can set
up an obstacle course on the ground you can stick
little animals to the table to get them to peel
it off for younger kids like there's so many
things that you can do with the stuff that you
already have it's not about spending loads of
money I always think as well like when you buy
kids the the trendy new toy that they really
want that's like very niche like specific interest
they might play with it for like a week or two
and then they've kind of like lost the use for
it whereas I think some of these things that
we already have in our house water and soap lentils
like these kind of things you can do so much
with and children never really get bored of because
yeah so that open -endedness I guess rather than
toys where there's only a certain way of playing
with them or a correct way of playing with them,
making it maybe a little bit more open -ended
so that there isn't the rules around play could
extend it. Exactly. And even if you're playing
something like a board game or a card game, letting
go of the rules, like you don't have to play
with the rules that are in the rulebook. I don't
struggle with that. Yeah, it's really hard to
let go of that expectation because that's what
we were brought up. thinking that we had to do
and again it comes from compliance complying
with the rules but I think it's it's so fun to
give the kids the reins and being like can you
come up with a better version of this game particularly
for PDAers who we know board games and card games
can really trigger a nervous system because they're
the winner and a loser and the winning and losing
is really tough yeah when you're diverging kids
in particular so I think when you can just give
them the autonomy to be like, you can come up
with a better version of this game. I'd love
to see where you could go with this game if you
just... made your own rules and like that can
just light up a PDA or like you can just see
them because it gives them all the all the autonomy
and the control which is exactly what we need
to do and it's fun to make the adults lose it's
so fun and it's so fun seeing children's creativity
I learn so much from how we as adults can also
model what it's like to lose positivity or what
it's like to actually say oh I hate losing I
feel really sad about that like almost narrate
that to then model what the expectation is on
being frustrated that they keep changing the
rules it's okay to narrate that yeah no I think
it's such a huge like learning opportunity when
you can model how to lose appropriately I guess
but I think safely I mean it's okay to admit
you're frustrated it is frustrating to lose I
hate losing I hate losing as well yeah it's okay
to admit that It's just doing it safely, isn't
it? It's being frustrated with the losing of
the game. And feeling comfortable to give that
autonomy. And I think as well, like, I absolutely
love... kids because every time I bring an activity
and I might bring the same activity for five
kids in the one day and they'll all see it from
a different angle and they'll all play with it
in a different way and I always love that because
I'm like if they all played with it with it in
the exact same way I'd be so bored whereas every
single child has like they're so creative with
how they view things and it's so nice to see
like different ways of playing with things and
we are limiting them by not allowing that, aren't
we? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think,
you know, we want to create problem solvers.
We want to create out of the box thinkers. And
by always expecting kids to do things in the
exact same way, we're dimming that kind of curiosity
and creativity. So, yeah, big advocate of just
letting kids lead. I mean, it perfectly advocates
for our rice therapy program. It perfectly advocates
for that, you know, developing this play session
that we are completely led by the learners. We
facilitate the objects and we say, what do you
want to do with it? We follow their lead. And
you're absolutely right. Every time I do the
session, I run it four times, repeat it four
times in four different classes across my school
visits. And every single one has a completely
different mood. Sometimes it's alerting. Sometimes
it's calming. Sometimes, you know, they just
use the objects in completely different ways.
And I love that so much. It makes it interesting.
Yeah, it's amazing. It's just so nice to not
put any. specific expectation on a child and
just seeing what they'll do with the materials
I think that's just the best thing it comes with
confidence doesn't it it comes with confidence
over how they manage your space and safety and
risk assessments and sensory profiles it comes
with a lot of confidence from the adult It's
an experience as well, you know. Yeah, absolutely.
And often I say if something feels unsafe to
you, sit with that. Is it actually unsafe or
is it just not following what you expected, how
you expected it to go? And sometimes it actually
is unsafe and it needs to be whipped away. And
that's fine. That happens too. That's important.
Yeah, and sometimes, you know, a child -led play
isn't about not having any boundaries. Like you
can have safety boundaries. while being child
led you know yeah it's not about letting the
child do absolutely whatever they want and you
know destroy your space and break your equipment
right obviously there's boundaries but being
child led means that you follow their lead and
you're not afraid of it going in a different
direction to what you expected it to as long
as we're protecting safety yeah i think that's
really important because sometimes people just
think it's this airy fairy free -for -all chaos
and That really isn't the reality. It really
is just about following their lead, giving them
the autonomy to come up with the ideas, validating
and celebrating those ideas. Whilst being there
to moderate and make it say. And maybe that means
moving the environment. Maybe that means changing
our clothing. Maybe that means removing some
of the things that are on offer. We can monitor.
I mean, as well, just like being mindful of who
you put in groups together, if you know that
those children that trigger each other. So it's
all about, yeah, it comes with confidence and
experience, I think, because I definitely wasn't
able to work in this way when I first graduated.
And over time, having worked in different specialist
schools with different children from different
backgrounds. in clinics in mainstream schools
you start to learn that every child is so unique
and every child needs a holistic kind of individualized
approach but over time you start to learn what
works for every child and for me that's connection
nervous system safety sensory regulation and
play yeah a really great start for me is edible
light things that are outside because outside
environment you can sprinkle and throw and without
much anxiety from the adult. So I often try and
start with dry cereal in a big bucket or a tray
outside and then to see where that goes and then
see what you want to add to that then and build
up from there. That's a really lovely way to
start. So if you're at the beginning of the summer
holidays listening to this and you want to give
it a go, pour out a box of cereal from your cupboard
into a tray or a bucket. and just see what happens
outside see what happens and go from there spaces
are just amazing as well where children don't
feel so confined and they can't just be like
that's why i just love like going to forest schools
where children are just like running around climbing
trees digging in the mud and it's just like they're
so regulated from all of the the nature around
them so yeah outdoors is amazing and in this
hot weather water balloon fight if you're brave
enough Yeah, absolutely. And bring it outside.
Everything, you know, if the kids are climbing
the walls, remove the walls. Yeah. Another one
I love is the sensory foam that you can put on
the windows outside and you can just draw in
the windows. Yeah, there's so much you can do
in the outdoor space. I love that so much. If
you want to find out more and if people are listening
and want to hear more from you and love how you're
thinking, where can they find out more information
about your practice and you in general? I post
loads of fun ideas on my Instagram page at the
optimistic OT. So at the underscore optimistic
OT. So I always try to post a variety of content
from sensory play ideas to movement breaks. I
always try and keep everything really low cost,
low prep, because I know cost of living crisis
and the mental load. is just so high for parents.
So I always try and keep it really low cost and
low prep. But I also post a lot about like concepts
like fluctuating capacity, how to create a neuroaffirming
classroom and executive functioning skills, all
of those kind of things. I also offer online
consultations. If you're interested in learning
more about your child's sensory processing needs,
I can do a sensory profile. I'm going to be offering
direct sessions over the summer in London if
you wanted to reach out to me about that. So
yeah, you can reach out to me through my Instagram
or my email address. is martha .theoptimisticoutlook
.com. Amazing. Thank you so much, Mother. This
is such a positive and wonderful episode to kind
of lead us into what can be quite an anxiety
-provoking time for parents in the summer holidays,
but also for teachers thinking ahead of their
new class maybe in September. So I think it's
a really perfect time to kind of leave maybe
what we've been doing behind and start afresh
and really... really try out these new strategies
yeah thank you this chat jordan thank you so
much i feel so alive from talking about thanks
i love it