Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education
teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything
communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson
ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged
4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in
the field answering your questions and sharing
our knowledge and experience working alongside
our beautiful young people. Let's get started.
Hello everybody and welcome to the Sensory Classroom
podcast. My name is Jordan and today I'm joined
by Lauren from Victorious. She's joined us before
in episode 38 where we spoke about the sen in
between us and today she is back to talk about
EOTAS. Hello Lauren. Hello Jordan. Would you
like to explain a little bit about what you do,
who you are, if somebody hasn't listened to the
episode that you were on before? Yes, so I am
Lauren and... I am an SEPN teacher of like 15
years and now I have founded Victorious, which
has kind of become the everything of IOTAS. So
for those of you that don't know, that is education,
otherwise than in or at school. And so I do provide
education and mentoring for children. But also
now I do lots of advocacy and helping get and
implement IOTAS on the ground as well. Amazing.
And how long have you been doing that type of
work for? So I became self -employed and opened
Victorious officially two years ago. But even
when I was working in SEN schools, I started
to feel the need for it because I was tutoring
children that were on the OTAS. I had children
that were in my school that had been or were
going on the OTAS as well. And I had my two young
children very close together. And then I opened
up Victorious and started doing that as well.
But it's been the goal for a while. But yeah,
two years officially has been what I've been
doing and expanding. Amazing. So you've explained
a little bit about what IOTAS stands for, being
educated in and outside of school. But who is
it for? Who is IOTAS meeting the needs for? When,
in what situation would it be used? So IOTAS
is for anyone. On an EHCP, that is a difference
between EOTAS and elective home education. You
do need an EHCP and the biggest difference is
that the local authority are responsible for
funding that. It is for anyone who can't get
Section F, which is your provision, and their
needs met in a school. And that can be an SEN
school as well. I do see this. It's always, you
know, we talk about the SEN betweeners that we
spoke about last time. And yes, the majority
of EOTAS. is those children but I have also seen
children that a SEN school's not right for as
well so it's anyone that can't have their needs
met especially no emotional based school avoidance
it also can be for physical health needs as well
so they you know physically can't attend school
in that time but yeah it's for children that
need more of a holistic approach to meet their
needs out of a school setting and yeah so it's
education but it's their whole EHCP. It's not
just sitting down with a tutor, which is a big
misconception. Yeah, absolutely. And can it be
a bit of flexi -school or does it have to be
their entire education? Could they access some
schooling, traditional schooling, but then also
have a task package as well? It depends on the
school. So if it's going to an actual school,
It's very, very rare. It depends on that school
itself because that would look a little bit different.
That would be more that the school have done
a costed provision map because they're still
getting the funding of an EHEP. So it would look
more like alternative provision in that case.
It would look like that. But absolutely an EOTAS
could be three hours tutoring, three hours AP
or 15 hours AP and 15 hours tutoring as well
as the other bits. And the other misconception
is that... This education doesn't need to be
a person or provision because a child's entitled
to, let's say, 25 hours. I've worked with many
children that haven't been able to leave their
house, their room for many hours, and sometimes
they can't even interact with many people. So
that's when we have to be creative. What else
that could look like? It might be self -led learning.
It might be subscription boxes. It might be all
your sensory needs being met within the home.
um because that's how you're going to meet section
f and then you can gradually make it look like
more of provision but ultimately yeah it can
be a bit of both it can't just be it doesn't
need to be just aps and aps it could also include
you know therapies art therapies sensory regulation
and activity and obviously if you've got section
f you've got soul ot all those things they should
still be implemented as part So as part of those
hours or additional to? It can be additional
and it can be as part. It all depends on the
child and what they would need. All individualised.
So it must be really important to get the right
package and to advocate for that package. I know
you manage EOTAS once they've got the package
and you implement that. Could you explain just
a little bit, just for parents listening, what
that kind of process might look like? going from
school or an education, if they're refusal, you
know, school refuses, what does it look like
from that to receiving somebody like you, either
supporting them or visiting the home and being
involved? So again, it does depend on the situation
and the LA. But what happens, so if they've already
got their EHEP secured, that EHEP, and this is
where... getting the right package can be tricky.
The EHCP may read as school. So you can then,
you might still get EOTAS, but you have to meet
it on the outcomes. That's when it can be tricky.
But obviously you would hold an emergency review.
Some children also go, if they're at the mainstream
or SEN school, and they have had 15 days consecutively
off, you might go the Section 19 route, which
means that the... school or the LA would pay
for something that's more temporary but EOTAS
what happens is the LA's you'd have a provision
meeting or at the end of review they go through
something called the section 61 and that's in
the children and families act and what that basically
is is what I would say a very backwards list
that they go through so your child's gone right
so you'd say they've gone from mainstream they're
right now they haven't been able to attend school
and this could be three weeks or unfortunately
three years they then want to go through the
list of schools mainstream alternative and ARPS
so that's like a base in the mainstream and then
they would go to SEN schools and then lastly
you know independent SEN schools and then it
would be YOTAS. This makes no sense to me. Because
of that cost, I guess, because mainstream is
the cheapest to fund for a local authority. And
then it would be APs because it's only 15 hours
a week, even though it's still quite expensive,
or SEND schools because that's, you know, that
kind of branding bracket. And then independent
schools are a little bit more expensive. Is EOTAS
the most expensive model for LAs? Is that why
they're putting it last? It's the least controllable.
It's the least controllable. Because in reality...
More often than not, especially if you're looking
at a child that is an in -betweener, that can't
actually access SEND schools or mainstream, it
can still be a lot cheaper than a specialist
school that wouldn't meet need. But then I have
seen a yoga teacher that can be a lot because
then they're resembling an SEN school, but specialist
schools are. more expensive on the whole but
yeah for that reason it would be you know they
want you to try it so all in that time they're
going through this list and they want you just
to try i think personally the list should be
the other way around you know you you try you
try yotas for a little bit it's secured and then
you're collecting positive evidence which is
very underrated collect what can work and then
we go back up up the list and slowly and surely
it might look like a school setting. That does
make sense because if a child's anxiety is so
heightened or they're so triggered by school
because of past experiences even if one day an
SEND school an alternative provision or an independent
school could work it wouldn't work right away
because they need to work through those therapies
and that trust in other adults leaving their
bedroom and all of those wonderful things that
you said IOTAS can involve it makes sense to
me that they would need that first. to then enable
them to access those things is that your thinking
absolutely absolutely because otherwise they're
sitting there with no met needs and because they
can't actually access anything and they're you
know you're going back to the place that hurt
you is how they would see it and I have I work
with children that can't even see a twinkle worksheet
because they're so traumatized from the school
setting and then you're going to put them back
where they got burnt Yeah, I speak about this
from a personal point of view. We were fostering
for nearly a year and we had a child with SEND
needs for that year. And he came to us having
been in six schools already. He was only 10.
So completely failed by the system. One, because
of his unmet needs and trauma related needs,
but also just because he's been moving around.
classic foster care story unfortunately so we
we waited nine months for him to find a school
I actually the only reason he got into the school
because it was the SEND school that I used to
work at before I started fostering he was there
for three weeks and then they couldn't meet his
needs because of yes he had SEND needs but of
course he also had trauma related behavioral
needs and SEND schools really struggle with that
because it doesn't look safe for them and their
other students so yeah he he was deemed not appropriate
for that school after three weeks and he was
saying to me do you realize this is my seventh
school like just completely let down by the system
didn't fit in mainstream he would be completely
vulnerable in a mainstream school didn't fit
in scnd school either as carers And parents,
you are just in this void of I'm already wearing
so many hats, I cannot wear the education one
too. We felt incredibly isolated at that time
as well. We were in a transition between social
workers, but lots of parents don't have those
social workers. So we had no professionals involved
in our life at that time either, very little.
So we felt really isolated. We felt vulnerable.
We felt that he was vulnerable and completely
left alone in that situation. And that was as
foster carers where actually we did have our
own social worker and our own agency supporting
us. I'm very aware that parents don't have that.
They don't have those big support networks, those
paid professionals to be involved. And I feel
like that's a huge failure on the local authority.
And there's so many children that fit into that
gap. For us, was the answer of at least having
another professional involved that could meet
us, come into our home, be bespoke for him, try
and build up some trust in the system again for
us and for him. And just to have other professional
eyes on him that wasn't just us, honestly, to
keep us and him safe. And exactly. And it's,
you know, as parents, as carers. It's almost
perceived that parents don't want that for their
children. Of course we do, but we also don't
want them to be traumatised and not be in a setting
that can't meet their needs. So that is the battle
that parents then have. And it breaks the relationship
between the child when you're dragging them into
school, their nervous system is high. You're
already trying to support them to meet their
basic needs, to help their regulation system
and all of those things, get them to sleep, basic
hygiene, all of those things. Dragging them to
school is going to break that relationship as
well. The last adult that that child trusts.
As parents, that just must be so heartbreaking.
And yet you're being judged and fined for it
as well. It is such an impossible position to
be in. And by having EOTAS, at least you're ticking
that education box that you know that there's
another professional involved that is at least
wearing that hat. So you can focus on the other
appeals, the other fights, the other medication
needs and send needs and everything else that
you have to manage without. you know at least
having education as well and be a parent and
I think even if the child is at school you know
there's so many other hats that send parents
need to wear like you say they've got to be a
lawyer they've got to be all these things to
fight fight for these systems and you know if
if social care get involved especially when there's
like school avoidance that cannot let child in
need but also you know you're then vulnerable
because it's The attitude always is, oh, they're
fine when they're in school, just bring them
in, drag them in. And that can have an impact
on the relationship, but it can also have an
impact on that parent is then nervous. Am I doing
the right thing? And it's just really, really
unfair because, of course, parents do want their
child to go to school, but not at the cost of
their mental health. And is school the right
setting for everyone? No, it's not. But, you
know, I see safeguarding concerns go out and...
All these kind of things when the child's safer
at home. Right, okay. Because they're safe in
the home, but because I suppose the school aren't
seeing proof of that, they're having to deem
it as something it's not. Yeah, and I have big,
you know, with the, so if they're still at a
school and they're, you know, they're named on
the school and the AHCP, especially when you're
awaiting AOTAS and support. You know, the parent
will be told to go on a parenting course and
it's mum's anxiety is what I hear a lot. All
this kind of stuff. But then we actually see
at home the child's mental health, you know,
without that school anxiety. But then the things
in schools will say about parents is just completely
awful. But that is all evidence. And yeah, in
that meantime, it is just a, it's just standstill.
It's just standstill and it's all due to unmet
needs. in the school so what does it take to
get from a situation like that to receiving a
package can it be weeks months years what on
average what do you see or can it is it just
depends on the local authority the situation
yeah it depends on a lot and it does depend on
you know what has happened in that setting and
if a if the school gets to the point where they
go actually we we can't meet need this is emotional
school -based avoidance or this is just we can't
meet needs on the CHEP they're doing a favour
to those parents because they're very hesitant
to do that. And I get it. But as soon as they
do do that, then it gets the ball rolling to
get the child's needs met, how they need to get
them met. It's so true. I speak to lots of schools
because I see it from the school point of view.
adore these children. You know, the key workers
adore these children. They're saying, they're
trying their absolute best for them and they
don't want to let them down. That's what they're
saying to me. I don't want to let them down.
I don't want to give up on them. My answer is
exactly what you just said. You are doing them
a favour by admitting that your school cannot
meet all of their needs because then the local
authority are forced to look for other alternatives.
It could be EOTAS or it could be an independent
school, but there's no way the local authority
are going to fork out for that spending unless
the school... admit that they cannot meet need
and it is the most loving thing to do and it
feels weird and it feels wrong but it absolutely
is in these circumstances that we're talking
about here where it's obvious that you cannot
meet all of their needs whether that's regulation
needs learning needs social needs you know safety
needs whatever it is It is okay to admit that
you can't meet their needs because it might mean
that the local authority give you more funding
so you can meet their needs. It might mean that
they educate them off -site or at a different
school. But by having that, starting that conversation
with the schools first, admitting that is the
most loving thing to do. And if they've put those
accommodations in and tried everything, fantastic.
And I know these schools exist and they try everything.
Like I was when I was working at Post -6CN school.
Best believe I'd go and meet a young person out
for Costa coffee and that would be my laying
eyes on him because that's one thing, you know,
especially with mainstream, they have the safeguard
and duty to lay eyes on this child. But that,
then noting the trauma then, before and after
that phone call, parents say to me they just
saw them on the camera and freaked out. And it's
not anything the school is necessarily doing
wrong and say here very often, oh, but we can
meet needs when they come in. But if you could
meet need, they would be coming in. And this
is then the battle we're up against. Is it that
the parents aren't encouraging them to come in?
Or is it that they are traumatised from coming
in? And this is all about the four o 'clock explosion
and burnout. But it's all well and good saying
we can meet need when they're in. But how can
we get them in? The issue is anxiety is so high
that they cannot get through the door. So there's
something wrong there, isn't it? And within their
nervous system is telling them it is not safe.
Therefore, you're not meeting their emotional
or safety needs, even if you can meet their educational
needs or their behavioral needs. You're not meeting
all of their needs. We've spoken a lot about
the benefits, benefits for carers, benefits for
schools even, because at least you're knowing
that you're doing the best for the learners.
certainly benefits for the learners what are
the pitfalls of EOTAS if you're honest what does
it miss what can it not provide for certain learners
well I think this could be depends on what eyes
you look at it really because the biggest pitfall
would be that it hasn't been designed and funded
properly for that individual child and meeting
section F so that can be the biggest pitfall
and that is when people like me come in and it
can also be obviously If your goal is standardized
testing and GCSEs for that child, again, that
is going to need creativity. But if that's not
your focus, fine. But that is still possible
because it all depends on the eyes of the parent
and also the schools. Because what I see a lot
is the artist isn't agreed because when the child
does come in. they could get good qualifications.
But at what cost? At what cost? And it's not
impossible to get GCSEs or whatever that would
look like for that child with an education out
of school. And in my opinion, it's far more likely
because a lot of children want to learn. It's
ironic, isn't it? Yes, okay, academically they
could get GCSEs, but if they're not able to access
and walk through the door, they're not going
to get anything. It just seems bizarre to me.
That that would be an argument. Yeah. Yeah. And
then you're wasting lots of time where they could
have been studying with a safe adult at home.
And then obviously that can affect them long
term. Where, you know, other children, GCSEs
and those kind of qualifications aren't appropriate.
But either way, in both situations, the most
paramount thing is that the child is having all
their needs met. You know, people forget that
it's not just an education plan. education health
and care plan so that includes their emotional
regulation and I speak to LA so often saying
oh well we need to get them back into school
I'm like without supporting the mental health
first you are never going to see them again where
another adult could if we put that first so we
can begin as just therapy as just mentoring and
then when that trust starts to come oh I can
trust this adult or I can trust this provision
that I like there's lots of things online that
lots of children are engaged with that there's
mind jam and which is like a gaming my biggest
tip and my biggest passion with the otas and
what it can look like and i do talk about this
a lot with parents and design you know when i'm
designing personal budgets and that kind of stuff
special interest you can create a whole bespoke
curriculum all of section f in all of their outcomes
using special interest At the trampoline park
we did. That was us. We met at the trampoline
park. Yeah. And we met most of his EHCP traveling,
getting ready, traveling there, having the trampoline
park and coming back. It was a way of him meeting
those social expectations on his EHCP as well.
Rules and all of those things were met through
the trampoline park. And that was what he needed.
And that sensory, that's his OT regulation there.
It was everything he needed. Yeah. And that is
what. You know, if I look at an average week
when I work with some children, I work with one
child 15 hours at the moment. That, no time of
that is spent with a pencil in his hand. But
what it does look like is that, you know, it's
sensory needs, it's social needs as well. And
the learning is creative. You know, we're doing
maths through Minecraft activities. We're doing
science and, you know, we're creating Mario cakes.
And you're extending that learning, but it is
child -led. That's not... When you look at activity,
you could say baking a cake. And although that's
not a whole curriculum, what it is, it also is
your maths because you're doing measuring and
you're going to extend that learning naturally.
All of those things, it's social skills, it's
hygiene. Yeah, and there's so much. I think anything
is learning when you change the way you look
at it. It's interesting hearing you say that
because I feel like with that bespoke way of
learning, all learners, regardless of EHCP, would
benefit from learning that way. So if anyone's
listening and is thinking, well, yeah, all learners
would benefit from that. Why just this section
of children that have been failed by education?
What's your thoughts on that? What would you
say to them with that kind of thought process
in mind? Well, so in a school, that's always
the goal to keep everything practical and everything
engaging because we want to prepare children
for the real life. And so often we hear this
at school, oh, we need to prepare them for real
life. But this coming off the national curriculum,
that is real life. Because it's not tick box
exercises in real life. You need to learn how
to problem solve. You need to learn how to communicate,
to advocate for yourself. You know, I see so
many ableist outcomes, you know, to talk about
something not of interest. No, in reality, they
will make friends with someone that wants to
hear them talk about marry over 24 -7, whatever
that may look like. And I think, and that is
where, especially with a PDA profile. And the
child needs autonomy over their learning and
over, you know, to regulate their nervous system.
This is where I do see the most of the O -Classes
that I support. It makes sense, doesn't it? Because
there are so many demands. even to get into the
school building let alone in school as well so
many demands their anxiety must be through the
roof it makes sense to me that this particular
profile of learner would need something more
bespoke something that they have more autonomy
over something they can make choices over rather
than it being set and having to fit into a community
a pre -built society that school is it makes
sense to me that of course this type of learner
would need that whether that's PDA traits through
trauma which is what we were finding because
he needed that sense of control and autonomy
because his anxiety was so high because of his
past trauma or that is actually an autistic PDA
profile that you know is them and that's how
their their brain works and that's how they you
know see the world that's how they explore the
world either way I can see why they would need
that bespoke opportunities for autonomy yeah
and that discreet learning like when you really
you know you might just think you've sat and
chatted to a child about you know a video of
interest or you've spoken about an animal they
like but what has really happened there you know
I did a whole lesson about cats recently and
we spoke about puberty because it was like why
is your cat meowing like that they were on heat
Or what would that look like in humans? And then
out of nowhere, we've had this whole discussion
about the life cycle and what puberty is going
to be like, how his body is going to change.
But because it's his special interest care, if
you got out, like you said, twinkle worksheets
all about puberty, they might not have been as
engaged or interested or absolutely not wanting
to do it. However, because you've gone through
the special interest route, you've built that
rapport, that relationship, he's controlling
that narrative of conversation. It's a genuine
interesting question. you can get in those really
important learning. Absolutely, because, you
know, it's that discreet way. And I find it quite
hard because obviously a lot of educators and
parents say, well, we've been so conditioned
that learning needs to look X, Y way on a piece
of paper. And sometimes worksheets can work,
especially if they're visual aids at the side
of something. Absolutely, you know, I work with
many autistic learners, you know, you're rigid
thinkers. They love a worksheet. Yeah, I've worked
with students as well. That's the first thing
they want to do that they find that regulating.
They like the structure of that. Yeah, absolutely.
Right. It's bespoke and individual for the learner.
We spoke about the benefits and the comparisons
between EOTAS and school. What about the comparison
between EOTAS and homeschool? Because that's
often the actual choice that parents are given.
You know, they know that schools aren't meeting
need. That isn't actually a choice anymore. Their
choice is EOTAS package homeschool. I guess the
benefit of homeschool is that you can do it right
away. Yeah. But there's huge pitfalls in that
as well of you lose all funding and responsibility
from the local authority to meet your learner's
needs. Are there anything else that you would
compare the two, just so parents can have an
informed decision if they're at that stage of
making these choices? So if you asked me six
months ago, my answer would be a little bit different.
But now with the wellbeing... thing as well as
the white paper i'll get to the white paper in
a minute you're going to be just as restricted
in home education as you are in the otas because
that was the one thing like if you wanted to
do it freely and support your child and you you
have the financial means to do so and have them
learning at home but now having to tick their
boxes but now they're trying to put tick boxes
on home education so you might as well get funding
via otas and right if you feel comfortable have
people involved as well because that was always
the only difference before was okay it's obviously
if you've got an EHCP it can be financed through
through there and obviously you're you do have
a you should be in theory like six weeks weekly
meetings discussing the otas funding personal
budget all that kind of stuff with the otas but
people would choose home education because they
want to do it and just not have people involved
and the monitoring and the reports it's not just
the learners that are losing trust in the system
it's parents too i mean this kind of things happen
after years and years of being absolutely let
down and i totally understand why the parents
are exhausted by the whole thing completely let
down completely failed you know their whole family
has been completely failed by this and I understand
why they wouldn't want anything to do with them
and there is absolutely no blame on my part I
get it absolutely get that but what we're saying
maybe is if you can find support with you know
people like yourself to hold your hand to just
try EOTAS to see if it feels comfortable you
can always You can always go the homeschooling.
Would that be your advice, do you think? To a
certain extent, because especially now, because
as soon as you electively home educate, and I've
seen it where they've sneakily, someone's deregistered,
hold off deregistering until you've had a YOTA
secured. Because people will deregister and then
they'll say, oh, I'm waiting for YOTAs when this
is secured. And which is the right thing to do.
You get your child out when, you know, when the
alarm bells go off. And then once you've gone,
I electively home educate, that's it. the LA
go no you make it very clear it's not elective
home education if you don't want it to be it's
still when there's an EHCP involved it is still
the LA's legal duty to provide section F of that
EHCP it's not just to provide a tutor that ticks
a box it is to provide what that child needs
and obviously you have some sort of freedom over
that as well and you know if your child can't
access anything traditionally let's say that's
when people go well I might as well just home
educate and they they're all day what looks like
to be I playing but that can still evolve in
the otas as well because how are they getting
their sensory needs met how are they getting
all that that met and but yeah before what like
I would like to home educate my children I've
always thought yes I can see why you would do
that you were in control of how they learn what
they learn but you know that puts financial strain
on the families they then can't work absolutely
And it's going to be restrained now as well,
because now home educated families are now having
to provide reports and all that sort of stuff
as well. Yeah, I think that's an interesting
conversation to have. And obviously, I trust
parents. I trust parents to make the right decision
for their children. This comes with no judgment
at all. I just think it's really good to... For
you to know your options ultimately and then
make the right decision for your child and your
family. That's all we're saying, isn't it? Absolutely.
You mentioned white paper. I think it's really
important that we mention that. So the white
paper came out recently. Changes are going to
be happening in the coming years and decades
on inclusion in mainstream school. That's the
big umbrella thing that the white paper covered
is the government want to include. more scnd
children in mainstream schools have their needs
met in mainstream schools and are promising funding
and training in order to do this it's becomes
from the great need and decreasing amount of
scnd schools increasing amount of places and
increasing need for these places that they want
to meet these needs in mainstream school we've
got lots of podcasts about the actual white paper
so if you're if you're wanting to find out more
about that find their white paper podcast from
the SEND expert that's a few weeks ago but in
regards to EOTAS that's what I'm interested here
do you feel like this will negate the need for
EOTAS because they're having their needs met
in mainstream or do you feel like it will actually
increase the need of unmet needs for these learners
that are forced into mainstream school well I
think from both sides, it's going to increase
the need. Because in theory, if a child at four
years old, which again, that's way too young,
when they go to school in a mainstream and they,
best case scenario, all this magical training
or this magical funding gets the child's needs
met in this setting. Amazing. In reality, with
every other pressure of the national curriculum
and all that stuff that can't meet need, yes,
you're still going to have children at EDOTAS.
But over that, what about the children that have
already been failed? And egotas is also for children
in SEND schools. You know, it's always, oh, well,
they can't go to a SEND school. So as Bridget
says. the most complex case is only going to
the same school. What does complex mean? It wasn't
clear. Well, she couldn't answer that question,
could she? Does complex mean medical need? Does
it mean physical need? Does it mean emotional
need, regulation need, behavioural need? It wasn't
clear, and I don't think they know. They don't.
Most complex, I guess, means the highest banded
children, which means that it's even more pressure
for schools, SENCOs, parents to get the EHCP
right, to get the banding right, to get the funding
right, so that the learners that are absolutely
eligible for appropriate and safe education are
there. But that covers so many peoples that there
won't be space for. There will always be failures
within that. In every setting, like recently
I've just supported a family and this young man,
he was, you know, he's pre -verbal and he has
very, very, what you would say, complex needs,
to quote Bridget. A SEN school was not appropriate
for him. Yeah, we've seen, I've had that in my
class. Yeah. We have had to admit that we cannot
meet need as a specialist provision. And why
is that? Because... You know, and this is why
a lot of children with a PDA profile or these
SEND betweeners, the same reason they can't access
a SEND classroom. I love SEND schools and I loved
working at a SEND school. They're noisy. They
are noisy, which you wouldn't expect because
you've got motion learners. Yeah, you're putting
the most noise sensitive learners with the loudest
learners. You're putting the most vulnerable
medical needs. students with the most volatile
and you know you know trajectory schema children
in one class we've I mean in my past I mean every
class I've had I've had opposing domino effect
regulations we had a pupil that was obsessed
with pulling out wires with PMLD students who
were peg fed I mean like you don't put them in
a class together like you can only imagine how
that's gonna go and yet I don't think I have
ever had a class without that like Yes, they
all are eligible for SENDs, school and provision,
but what that looks like also sometimes isn't
safe. Because, yeah, I'm seeing it a lot in different
boroughs as well, because it can be just the
social aspect of it. And that's always the biggest
pressure as well. I think school's biggest argument
and, you know, we have to go to school because
that's where you socialise. I am sorry, but,
you know, half an hour rush lunch is not social
skills. Whereas on an EOTAS or HomeMed, you're
going to trampoline, you're talking to children.
If you want to play the social needs card, that's
not happening in school. That's really interesting
because that could be parents' fear of why they're
wanting to keep them in school for longer, like
they just don't want to lose that. So it's really
interesting that that could actually be part
of the package. And considered in the package
is that need for those social interactions and
those friendships to be made because that really
could be holding parents back to making that
decision. So that's interesting to know that
that is an option. I guess the point is the package
can be whatever you need it to be. It's about...
advocating for that and it's hard for the parents
to do that and is that something that you support
yes could you tell me a little bit what that
looks like how you support this this um yeah
this as you're creating and designing it as you
said so obviously so I take the EHCP and in best
case scenario it is really accurate to the child's
needs which we all know that that's not always
the case but it is about what I do is I would
I talk to the parents about what the child would
actually need. And in best case scenario, what
would they be accessing? And then I link it to
a bespoke curriculum and to a personal budget
and a YOTAS proposal and everything they need
to get their outcomes met, make progress on their
outcomes. Because, you know, parents are expected
to do that. So when a YOTAS finally does get
agreed, the parents are then told, right, you
just go and link it to the outcomes on what they
need. And they're like, oh, I'm not a teacher,
I don't know how to do this. Neotas already agreed,
it's just the package isn't. Yeah, it can depend.
So, because obviously if a parent is going to
tribunal to look at the EHCP and challenge sections
B, F and I, we sometimes would like design roughly
what Neotas can look like to meet section F before.
But most times when it's secured, that's when
we look at the personal budget and... to orchestrate
how it would work for their child because often
the LA would go, okay, Iota's secured, here's
your tutor. And this parent's thinking, well,
my child's not going to do 15 hours of tuition.
So it's about being creative and evidencing it
against the EHCP. And that is where I come in.
They've been given a personal budget idea as
well and you're working out how to spend that?
No. And then you can always put that within that
or no? Can you request the personal budget? Right.
You can have, so that's like with direct payments,
you can do it two or both kind of ways. So if
a child, best case scenario, is going to an alternative
provision, they normally get directly commissioned
and then you can get a personal budget to meet
the other needs. And sometimes if a child is
struggling to leave the house, for example, that
whole personal budget would look like what they
need to look like with your OT, your SALT. anything
they have on section f as well as you know resources
and activities all to meet their needs and that
would be done separately again you know la's
do it differently but more often than not you
know you can request a personal budget if you
filled in all your child's needs and the provision
section f are getting met and then just so parents
are aware does it work a little bit like a personal
assistant where the la gives you or the parent
it's almost like a business they give you those
direct payments it's your job to pay all the
things and then keep receipts and and prove what
it's been spent on is that is that kind of how
it works it can look like that especially you
know i think this is one thing that really overwhelms
parents in terms of managing it because And this
is why the LA don't like to do it too much, because
when you're choosing your own providers, you
might be getting given quite a lot of money to
delegate that money to people. But then with
the resources and the activities, yeah, you just
keep the receipts and then you'll see evidence
in the reports, in the annual review. But, you
know, the simplest for both parents and for the
LA is just that they go to an AP. That money
goes straight to them. It goes to things like
Mindjam and OT and they can directly commission
it. But those places don't meet the needs of
all children, especially if a PDA profile, you
need flexibility. You might say on there that
you're going to, I don't know, go to a soft play
or buy a certain Minecraft book, let's say. In
reality, that's not going to happen. Novelty,
all that sort of stuff. So as long as it meets
the same needs, you could justify it. And that's
when you discuss it in the end review and all
that sort of stuff. As long as it's meeting the
outcome, as long as you're still working towards
the HCV. And that's where whoever's managing
that, whether that's you or the parent or, you
know, whoever's coming in can justify their choices
within that moment. It makes perfect sense. It
really does. So we've spoken a lot about parents
wanting to get involved and how they would get
involved in this. What about teachers listening
to this? If they want to get involved in this
line of work, you know, you said right at the
beginning that you got into it because it works
around your family. You're really passionate
about this. There's other teachers listening
to this. You know, how do you start getting involved
in this? Are there agencies that you go to? Is
it always self -employed? What do you do? It
can look differently because there are bigger
organisations and places that will have EOTAS.
children come into there and then that work goes
out that way um obviously yeah if you become
self -employed and want to meet the needs of
children outside of the school system that often
is word of mouth parents again they don't they
don't necessarily trust people that have come
from certain provisions they want a certain human
yes you can have all you know you have all the
qualifications but they're looking at will this
person follow my child's lead will this person
be able to meet my child's needs so it does it's
very old school it's you know word of mouth it
does come that way as well but I would say yes
because that's what made me leave I loved working
in SEN school I was very passionate about teaching
RSE and emotional regulation I loved it but not
only personally for my family to be flexible
it was more every year we're turning away 80
to 100 children that where are they going in
and it was just like what about these these children
that just it's not right for or there's not a
space for and that is ultimately you know I tried
so many years to be that good egg in the system
and still was working out a system a little bit
as well but then it's just like well at what
point do I have to meet these needs out it's
exactly why I got into foster care it's interesting
you it's really hard isn't it when you see a
need And it's not being met by other people.
And you're kind of looking around and thinking,
well, I guess I could do that then. And I guess
it's that feeling, isn't it? Well, I can't be
waiting for other people to fix this problem
when actually I obviously have a passion for
it. It will support me and my family as well
as supporting something that I feel really passionate
about that should be supported and these children
that should be supported and not let down. If
that's you listening to this, this really could
be. an important role that you could feel that,
you know, there's so many alternatives way of
teaching. This is a really exciting one, I would
say, that you get to work bespoke, you get to
work one -to -one with learners. You know, I've
done, I know this isn't teaching, but I've done
teaching. It's really satisfying to work in such
a bespoke way alongside a learner and to teach
them how they want to teach and learn how they
want to learn. And to see them thrive in that
is so rewarding. It's all the best parts of teaching,
really. And you get to put emotional regulation
first. You really do. And that's always been
my ethos when I worked in mainstream, when I
worked in SEN schools, emotional regulation first.
But in a classroom, you do have the pressures
of everything else, you know, and you do get
to have relationships with your children. But,
you know, when you are, you know, even if you're
doing a group of Yota's children or one -to -one,
however that looks like, you get to have that
relationship and make the learning cyber spot.
without all the pressures of, oh, I need to evidence
that right way. You do evidence it because you're
going to be, you know, their advocate in the
annual reviews and that sort of stuff. But ultimately,
you get to see the joy of learning come back
in that non -traditional way. And that is the
feeling that feels so good. Life skills and,
you know, having those conversations when you
don't have time because right now it's science,
I have to do this. But actually you get to...
be flexible and actually because in a classroom
even an SEN classroom you know you have to teach
the curriculum to a certain degree you've got
this timetable and then when are you meant to
sit down and look at these EHEP outcomes I know
you've got your wonderful you know sensory curriculum
and stuff but really looking at those ones there's
ones about eating there's what you know outcomes
that are sensory completely different levels
in yeah in my timetable we had two hours a week
to try and fit all of those random outcomes in
that don't fit into any lesson because so often
the most important outcomes, I would argue for
our learners, are out of lessons. They're not
lesson -based at all. They're about independence.
They're about dressing skills, hygiene skills,
transitioning between things, you know, all of
those things. So, yeah, we actually had, it was
just called IEP time because... Because we just
needed that time to work on those really important
outcomes. What's physio things, you know, all
those things that don't necessarily fit into
a lesson. It's really important. Most important,
arguably. Absolutely. Because otherwise, you
know, what happens, this all goes back down to
the EHCP. Because still, I still see children,
they're on IOTAS, but their outcomes are still
really ableist. So it's like, well... I could
target that, but how do I target that? There's
kind of two things in that regard, isn't it?
It's making sure that your IATUS package is secured,
but then also maybe having a legal team look
at the AACP and make those amendments that are
needed so that it's suitable for the provision
and suitable for the child and the situation
that's arisen. I suppose there's two different
things maybe in balance there. Yeah, so I collab
with a particular SEND law advocate. Am I allowed
to? say yeah I work quite often with Amy from
the inclusive class and we have a bit of a tag
team going on because when she's looking at the
EHCP and she's securing that EHCP she might ping
it to me and go okay with these outcomes would
that be met on EOTAS because ultimately when
she does an amazing job of securing the EOTAS
you know sometimes that looks like tribunal sometimes
she gets it conceded before because she's incredible
and then when it comes to me I then got outcomes
that are all from the reports because obviously
she has to take it all from the reports and evidenced.
And then I can just link it really, really well
because that is when EOTAS really thrives because
it's their needs on that EHCP. You're linking
the provisions to that EHCP and that's when you
see progress. And it's all relevant. It's all
achievable. It's realistic and all of those things
that we need in the EHCP. But when they come
from a mainstream, it's really, really hard.
Like recently I had... And when it goes to tribunal,
it goes, so section E is the outcomes. But then
it only goes, it's normally B, F and I. So needs,
provision and placement that get taken to tribunal.
So I've seen this amazingly rewritten B, F and
I that screams the OTAS recently. And then the
outcomes still say to sit still at desk. Except
going to the playground with other friends. And
it's like, you can't meet that without a role.
And that's when you would obviously change it
in an annual review, link them to Section F,
because it does say things like, you know, I
see this is a whole different conversation, but
you see all these ableist outcomes, which say,
oh, to sit still for a child with ADHD. I've
seen one with eye contact before. Oh, don't,
it rages me. What does that mean? I don't really
want to fit in. Like you said, talking about
a different topic. I mean, I've seen it all.
They are really shocking. podcast about EHCPs
as well so if your parent listens to this then
this is panicking you we've got a couple with
lawyers that literally go through every section
of what it should and shouldn't include and what
should be in what section so yeah do find that
if you're if you're panicking listen to this
because it is important it really is and I'm
always happy to like collab with you know with
advocates and looking at EOTAS on the ground
because yes they can get it secured and do all
that but I like to call myself a bit of a middleman
recently because I, you know, although I do still
do the providing, that middleman of taking it
from the law advocates or the parents have done
the draft of you themselves to getting it practically
on the ground. Your parents are listening to
this and they're not necessarily living local
to you because are you in Essex, are you? No,
I'm originally from Essex. I live in Dorset now.
You're in Dorset. OK, so if you're in the Dorset
area, then of course that might be an option
to work with you. But you're also offering other
support systems, aren't you, through your website
and courses. Do you want to explain a little
bit about that? Because parents might be listening
that aren't living in your area at all that can't
access you, but love the way you're working and
love the way you're talking and still want access
to you. How does that look? So I can still be
with you and work with you and do all that stuff
that I have described. So most of my kind of
EOTIS advocacy is all online. I do still offer
that, even that is bespoke, because that... may
look like supporting you to prep you for a meeting.
It may look like coming to a meeting. And more
often than not, what I'm seeing a lot recently
is that I will just discuss with you online and
I will design your personal budget and your YOTAS
and evidence all that based on the reports and
EHGP that you've already got. You can do that
completely remotely? You don't have to be in
the county? No, you don't have to go with me.
I do it all VR, so you can go on my calendar
on my website. which is victorious .co .uk. So
you can just go on my website, book a calendar.
I offer free one -to -ones just to chat because
sometimes people are just like, oh, am I on the
right track? And I would do it that way. But
my one -to -one support, we can just have a support
chat through that or it can be straight away.
Lauren, I need you to design this. Here's my
EACP and I'll get cracking with a person. Great.
Sounds amazing. I'll leave your website down
below because... It really can be helpful. And
parents are nervous about who to trust with this.
So if they're listening to this and think, yeah,
you get it. You've obviously done it before.
You have the right heart for it. my child to
support us in this. It would be really lovely
to them to have access to you, no matter where
they are. So that's such a great offer that you're
offering there. Did you say that you've also
got some courses coming up? Yes, so I'm doing
some workshops because I'm doing like AOTAs on
the ground kind of workshops. So just supporting
parents and professionals are more than welcome
as well, where we look at what a bespoke curriculum
could look like, how to evidence a personal budget,
so that especially financially, if you want to
access that to do it yourself, I will be providing.
all that kind of stuff how it looks like when
it's on the ground how do you evidence that how
to collaborate with professionals and yeah and
kind of going through that it's not a one -size
-fits -all and bits of the conversation we've
had today so I am running a workshop on the 4th
of June but I will be doing that again and I
also like do emotional regulation support and
things like that as well okay amazing so there
yeah so you they've got some coming up that will
be available on the website as well so if you're
interested in any of that Click on the website,
either sign up to a consultation or look at the
workshops. Amazing. So helpful. We haven't covered
this crucial topic and it's more crucial than
ever, I would say. The needs for these bespoke
offers are more and more needed. So it's really
nice to be able to unpick this. It's really hard
with acronyms often that people throw them around
like we know what they are and it's really nice
to have the opportunity. You know, you can't
do it in a 90 second social media post. It's
really nice to have the opportunity to really
delve into it and unpick it and with no bias,
you know, and really think about, you know, what
is best for your child. So thank you. I'm sure
it'll be really helpful for professional supporting
parents to make the decision, but also parents
to make the decision as well. It's really nice
to know what you're agreeing to. So thank you
for that, Laura. Thank you for having me, Jordan.
It's great to see you and speak to you again
and maybe again. Until next time. Until next
time. Thank you. Bye.