WEBVTT

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Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education

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teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything

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communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson

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ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged

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4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in

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the field answering your questions and sharing

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our knowledge and experience working alongside

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our beautiful young people. Let's get started.

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Hello everybody and welcome to the Sensory Classroom

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podcast. My name is Jordan and today I'm joined

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by Lauren from Victorious. She's joined us before

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in episode 38 where we spoke about the sen in

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between us and today she is back to talk about

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EOTAS. Hello Lauren. Hello Jordan. Would you

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like to explain a little bit about what you do,

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who you are, if somebody hasn't listened to the

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episode that you were on before? Yes, so I am

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Lauren and... I am an SEPN teacher of like 15

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years and now I have founded Victorious, which

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has kind of become the everything of IOTAS. So

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for those of you that don't know, that is education,

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otherwise than in or at school. And so I do provide

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education and mentoring for children. But also

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now I do lots of advocacy and helping get and

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implement IOTAS on the ground as well. Amazing.

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And how long have you been doing that type of

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work for? So I became self -employed and opened

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Victorious officially two years ago. But even

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when I was working in SEN schools, I started

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to feel the need for it because I was tutoring

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children that were on the OTAS. I had children

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that were in my school that had been or were

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going on the OTAS as well. And I had my two young

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children very close together. And then I opened

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up Victorious and started doing that as well.

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But it's been the goal for a while. But yeah,

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two years officially has been what I've been

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doing and expanding. Amazing. So you've explained

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a little bit about what IOTAS stands for, being

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educated in and outside of school. But who is

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it for? Who is IOTAS meeting the needs for? When,

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in what situation would it be used? So IOTAS

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is for anyone. On an EHCP, that is a difference

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between EOTAS and elective home education. You

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do need an EHCP and the biggest difference is

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that the local authority are responsible for

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funding that. It is for anyone who can't get

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Section F, which is your provision, and their

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needs met in a school. And that can be an SEN

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school as well. I do see this. It's always, you

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know, we talk about the SEN betweeners that we

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spoke about last time. And yes, the majority

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of EOTAS. is those children but I have also seen

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children that a SEN school's not right for as

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well so it's anyone that can't have their needs

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met especially no emotional based school avoidance

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it also can be for physical health needs as well

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so they you know physically can't attend school

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in that time but yeah it's for children that

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need more of a holistic approach to meet their

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needs out of a school setting and yeah so it's

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education but it's their whole EHCP. It's not

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just sitting down with a tutor, which is a big

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misconception. Yeah, absolutely. And can it be

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a bit of flexi -school or does it have to be

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their entire education? Could they access some

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schooling, traditional schooling, but then also

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have a task package as well? It depends on the

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school. So if it's going to an actual school,

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It's very, very rare. It depends on that school

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itself because that would look a little bit different.

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That would be more that the school have done

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a costed provision map because they're still

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getting the funding of an EHEP. So it would look

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more like alternative provision in that case.

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It would look like that. But absolutely an EOTAS

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could be three hours tutoring, three hours AP

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or 15 hours AP and 15 hours tutoring as well

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as the other bits. And the other misconception

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is that... This education doesn't need to be

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a person or provision because a child's entitled

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to, let's say, 25 hours. I've worked with many

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children that haven't been able to leave their

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house, their room for many hours, and sometimes

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they can't even interact with many people. So

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that's when we have to be creative. What else

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that could look like? It might be self -led learning.

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It might be subscription boxes. It might be all

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your sensory needs being met within the home.

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um because that's how you're going to meet section

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f and then you can gradually make it look like

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more of provision but ultimately yeah it can

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be a bit of both it can't just be it doesn't

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need to be just aps and aps it could also include

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you know therapies art therapies sensory regulation

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and activity and obviously if you've got section

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f you've got soul ot all those things they should

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still be implemented as part So as part of those

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hours or additional to? It can be additional

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and it can be as part. It all depends on the

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child and what they would need. All individualised.

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So it must be really important to get the right

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package and to advocate for that package. I know

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you manage EOTAS once they've got the package

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and you implement that. Could you explain just

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a little bit, just for parents listening, what

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that kind of process might look like? going from

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school or an education, if they're refusal, you

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know, school refuses, what does it look like

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from that to receiving somebody like you, either

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supporting them or visiting the home and being

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involved? So again, it does depend on the situation

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and the LA. But what happens, so if they've already

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got their EHEP secured, that EHEP, and this is

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where... getting the right package can be tricky.

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The EHCP may read as school. So you can then,

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you might still get EOTAS, but you have to meet

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it on the outcomes. That's when it can be tricky.

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But obviously you would hold an emergency review.

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Some children also go, if they're at the mainstream

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or SEN school, and they have had 15 days consecutively

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off, you might go the Section 19 route, which

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means that the... school or the LA would pay

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for something that's more temporary but EOTAS

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what happens is the LA's you'd have a provision

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meeting or at the end of review they go through

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something called the section 61 and that's in

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the children and families act and what that basically

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is is what I would say a very backwards list

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that they go through so your child's gone right

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so you'd say they've gone from mainstream they're

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right now they haven't been able to attend school

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and this could be three weeks or unfortunately

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three years they then want to go through the

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list of schools mainstream alternative and ARPS

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so that's like a base in the mainstream and then

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they would go to SEN schools and then lastly

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you know independent SEN schools and then it

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would be YOTAS. This makes no sense to me. Because

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of that cost, I guess, because mainstream is

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the cheapest to fund for a local authority. And

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then it would be APs because it's only 15 hours

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a week, even though it's still quite expensive,

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or SEND schools because that's, you know, that

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kind of branding bracket. And then independent

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schools are a little bit more expensive. Is EOTAS

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the most expensive model for LAs? Is that why

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they're putting it last? It's the least controllable.

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It's the least controllable. Because in reality...

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More often than not, especially if you're looking

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at a child that is an in -betweener, that can't

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actually access SEND schools or mainstream, it

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can still be a lot cheaper than a specialist

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school that wouldn't meet need. But then I have

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seen a yoga teacher that can be a lot because

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then they're resembling an SEN school, but specialist

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schools are. more expensive on the whole but

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yeah for that reason it would be you know they

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want you to try it so all in that time they're

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going through this list and they want you just

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to try i think personally the list should be

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the other way around you know you you try you

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try yotas for a little bit it's secured and then

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you're collecting positive evidence which is

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very underrated collect what can work and then

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we go back up up the list and slowly and surely

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it might look like a school setting. That does

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make sense because if a child's anxiety is so

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heightened or they're so triggered by school

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because of past experiences even if one day an

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SEND school an alternative provision or an independent

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school could work it wouldn't work right away

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because they need to work through those therapies

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and that trust in other adults leaving their

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bedroom and all of those wonderful things that

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you said IOTAS can involve it makes sense to

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me that they would need that first. to then enable

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them to access those things is that your thinking

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absolutely absolutely because otherwise they're

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sitting there with no met needs and because they

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can't actually access anything and they're you

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know you're going back to the place that hurt

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you is how they would see it and I have I work

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with children that can't even see a twinkle worksheet

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because they're so traumatized from the school

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setting and then you're going to put them back

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where they got burnt Yeah, I speak about this

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from a personal point of view. We were fostering

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for nearly a year and we had a child with SEND

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needs for that year. And he came to us having

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been in six schools already. He was only 10.

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So completely failed by the system. One, because

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of his unmet needs and trauma related needs,

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but also just because he's been moving around.

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classic foster care story unfortunately so we

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we waited nine months for him to find a school

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I actually the only reason he got into the school

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because it was the SEND school that I used to

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work at before I started fostering he was there

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for three weeks and then they couldn't meet his

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needs because of yes he had SEND needs but of

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course he also had trauma related behavioral

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needs and SEND schools really struggle with that

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because it doesn't look safe for them and their

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other students so yeah he he was deemed not appropriate

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for that school after three weeks and he was

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saying to me do you realize this is my seventh

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school like just completely let down by the system

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didn't fit in mainstream he would be completely

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vulnerable in a mainstream school didn't fit

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in scnd school either as carers And parents,

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you are just in this void of I'm already wearing

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so many hats, I cannot wear the education one

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too. We felt incredibly isolated at that time

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as well. We were in a transition between social

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workers, but lots of parents don't have those

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social workers. So we had no professionals involved

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in our life at that time either, very little.

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So we felt really isolated. We felt vulnerable.

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We felt that he was vulnerable and completely

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left alone in that situation. And that was as

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foster carers where actually we did have our

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own social worker and our own agency supporting

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us. I'm very aware that parents don't have that.

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They don't have those big support networks, those

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paid professionals to be involved. And I feel

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like that's a huge failure on the local authority.

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And there's so many children that fit into that

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gap. For us, was the answer of at least having

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another professional involved that could meet

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us, come into our home, be bespoke for him, try

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and build up some trust in the system again for

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us and for him. And just to have other professional

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eyes on him that wasn't just us, honestly, to

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keep us and him safe. And exactly. And it's,

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you know, as parents, as carers. It's almost

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perceived that parents don't want that for their

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children. Of course we do, but we also don't

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want them to be traumatised and not be in a setting

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that can't meet their needs. So that is the battle

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that parents then have. And it breaks the relationship

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between the child when you're dragging them into

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school, their nervous system is high. You're

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already trying to support them to meet their

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basic needs, to help their regulation system

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and all of those things, get them to sleep, basic

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hygiene, all of those things. Dragging them to

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school is going to break that relationship as

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well. The last adult that that child trusts.

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As parents, that just must be so heartbreaking.

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And yet you're being judged and fined for it

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as well. It is such an impossible position to

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be in. And by having EOTAS, at least you're ticking

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that education box that you know that there's

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another professional involved that is at least

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wearing that hat. So you can focus on the other

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appeals, the other fights, the other medication

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needs and send needs and everything else that

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you have to manage without. you know at least

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having education as well and be a parent and

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I think even if the child is at school you know

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there's so many other hats that send parents

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need to wear like you say they've got to be a

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lawyer they've got to be all these things to

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fight fight for these systems and you know if

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if social care get involved especially when there's

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like school avoidance that cannot let child in

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need but also you know you're then vulnerable

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because it's The attitude always is, oh, they're

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fine when they're in school, just bring them

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in, drag them in. And that can have an impact

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on the relationship, but it can also have an

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impact on that parent is then nervous. Am I doing

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the right thing? And it's just really, really

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unfair because, of course, parents do want their

00:13:20.850 --> 00:13:23.529
child to go to school, but not at the cost of

00:13:23.529 --> 00:13:25.950
their mental health. And is school the right

00:13:25.950 --> 00:13:29.269
setting for everyone? No, it's not. But, you

00:13:29.269 --> 00:13:31.889
know, I see safeguarding concerns go out and...

00:13:32.330 --> 00:13:34.190
All these kind of things when the child's safer

00:13:34.190 --> 00:13:37.149
at home. Right, okay. Because they're safe in

00:13:37.149 --> 00:13:40.450
the home, but because I suppose the school aren't

00:13:40.450 --> 00:13:43.389
seeing proof of that, they're having to deem

00:13:43.389 --> 00:13:46.950
it as something it's not. Yeah, and I have big,

00:13:47.370 --> 00:13:49.909
you know, with the, so if they're still at a

00:13:49.909 --> 00:13:52.110
school and they're, you know, they're named on

00:13:52.110 --> 00:13:54.110
the school and the AHCP, especially when you're

00:13:54.110 --> 00:13:57.090
awaiting AOTAS and support. You know, the parent

00:13:57.090 --> 00:13:59.169
will be told to go on a parenting course and

00:13:59.169 --> 00:14:02.649
it's mum's anxiety is what I hear a lot. All

00:14:02.649 --> 00:14:04.429
this kind of stuff. But then we actually see

00:14:04.429 --> 00:14:06.330
at home the child's mental health, you know,

00:14:06.330 --> 00:14:11.309
without that school anxiety. But then the things

00:14:11.309 --> 00:14:13.570
in schools will say about parents is just completely

00:14:13.570 --> 00:14:17.149
awful. But that is all evidence. And yeah, in

00:14:17.149 --> 00:14:20.190
that meantime, it is just a, it's just standstill.

00:14:20.490 --> 00:14:23.610
It's just standstill and it's all due to unmet

00:14:23.610 --> 00:14:27.330
needs. in the school so what does it take to

00:14:27.330 --> 00:14:29.950
get from a situation like that to receiving a

00:14:29.950 --> 00:14:32.529
package can it be weeks months years what on

00:14:32.529 --> 00:14:34.330
average what do you see or can it is it just

00:14:34.330 --> 00:14:35.850
depends on the local authority the situation

00:14:35.850 --> 00:14:38.549
yeah it depends on a lot and it does depend on

00:14:38.549 --> 00:14:41.970
you know what has happened in that setting and

00:14:41.970 --> 00:14:45.710
if a if the school gets to the point where they

00:14:45.710 --> 00:14:49.350
go actually we we can't meet need this is emotional

00:14:49.350 --> 00:14:51.629
school -based avoidance or this is just we can't

00:14:51.629 --> 00:14:54.850
meet needs on the CHEP they're doing a favour

00:14:54.850 --> 00:14:57.789
to those parents because they're very hesitant

00:14:57.789 --> 00:15:00.909
to do that. And I get it. But as soon as they

00:15:00.909 --> 00:15:02.710
do do that, then it gets the ball rolling to

00:15:02.710 --> 00:15:05.210
get the child's needs met, how they need to get

00:15:05.210 --> 00:15:07.830
them met. It's so true. I speak to lots of schools

00:15:07.830 --> 00:15:09.269
because I see it from the school point of view.

00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:13.120
adore these children. You know, the key workers

00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:14.899
adore these children. They're saying, they're

00:15:14.899 --> 00:15:17.220
trying their absolute best for them and they

00:15:17.220 --> 00:15:18.519
don't want to let them down. That's what they're

00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:20.519
saying to me. I don't want to let them down.

00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:22.419
I don't want to give up on them. My answer is

00:15:22.419 --> 00:15:24.720
exactly what you just said. You are doing them

00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:27.399
a favour by admitting that your school cannot

00:15:27.399 --> 00:15:29.980
meet all of their needs because then the local

00:15:29.980 --> 00:15:32.080
authority are forced to look for other alternatives.

00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:34.559
It could be EOTAS or it could be an independent

00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:36.700
school, but there's no way the local authority

00:15:36.700 --> 00:15:39.080
are going to fork out for that spending unless

00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:42.429
the school... admit that they cannot meet need

00:15:42.429 --> 00:15:44.850
and it is the most loving thing to do and it

00:15:44.850 --> 00:15:47.549
feels weird and it feels wrong but it absolutely

00:15:47.549 --> 00:15:49.990
is in these circumstances that we're talking

00:15:49.990 --> 00:15:52.389
about here where it's obvious that you cannot

00:15:52.389 --> 00:15:54.909
meet all of their needs whether that's regulation

00:15:54.909 --> 00:15:58.830
needs learning needs social needs you know safety

00:15:58.830 --> 00:16:02.580
needs whatever it is It is okay to admit that

00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:04.139
you can't meet their needs because it might mean

00:16:04.139 --> 00:16:05.720
that the local authority give you more funding

00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:07.840
so you can meet their needs. It might mean that

00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:09.940
they educate them off -site or at a different

00:16:09.940 --> 00:16:12.440
school. But by having that, starting that conversation

00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:16.340
with the schools first, admitting that is the

00:16:16.340 --> 00:16:18.899
most loving thing to do. And if they've put those

00:16:18.899 --> 00:16:21.940
accommodations in and tried everything, fantastic.

00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:24.419
And I know these schools exist and they try everything.

00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:26.779
Like I was when I was working at Post -6CN school.

00:16:27.419 --> 00:16:29.919
Best believe I'd go and meet a young person out

00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:32.679
for Costa coffee and that would be my laying

00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:35.379
eyes on him because that's one thing, you know,

00:16:35.379 --> 00:16:37.240
especially with mainstream, they have the safeguard

00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:40.259
and duty to lay eyes on this child. But that,

00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:43.639
then noting the trauma then, before and after

00:16:43.639 --> 00:16:45.480
that phone call, parents say to me they just

00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.159
saw them on the camera and freaked out. And it's

00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:49.519
not anything the school is necessarily doing

00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:52.919
wrong and say here very often, oh, but we can

00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:56.740
meet needs when they come in. But if you could

00:16:56.740 --> 00:16:59.220
meet need, they would be coming in. And this

00:16:59.220 --> 00:17:01.120
is then the battle we're up against. Is it that

00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:02.840
the parents aren't encouraging them to come in?

00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:05.819
Or is it that they are traumatised from coming

00:17:05.819 --> 00:17:07.779
in? And this is all about the four o 'clock explosion

00:17:07.779 --> 00:17:10.960
and burnout. But it's all well and good saying

00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:14.200
we can meet need when they're in. But how can

00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:17.099
we get them in? The issue is anxiety is so high

00:17:17.099 --> 00:17:19.059
that they cannot get through the door. So there's

00:17:19.059 --> 00:17:20.859
something wrong there, isn't it? And within their

00:17:20.859 --> 00:17:23.019
nervous system is telling them it is not safe.

00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:25.140
Therefore, you're not meeting their emotional

00:17:25.140 --> 00:17:28.680
or safety needs, even if you can meet their educational

00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:31.140
needs or their behavioral needs. You're not meeting

00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:33.640
all of their needs. We've spoken a lot about

00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:35.759
the benefits, benefits for carers, benefits for

00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:38.319
schools even, because at least you're knowing

00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:40.220
that you're doing the best for the learners.

00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:42.640
certainly benefits for the learners what are

00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:45.440
the pitfalls of EOTAS if you're honest what does

00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:48.680
it miss what can it not provide for certain learners

00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:51.940
well I think this could be depends on what eyes

00:17:51.940 --> 00:17:54.579
you look at it really because the biggest pitfall

00:17:54.579 --> 00:17:57.440
would be that it hasn't been designed and funded

00:17:57.440 --> 00:17:59.660
properly for that individual child and meeting

00:17:59.660 --> 00:18:01.839
section F so that can be the biggest pitfall

00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:04.339
and that is when people like me come in and it

00:18:04.339 --> 00:18:07.940
can also be obviously If your goal is standardized

00:18:07.940 --> 00:18:11.960
testing and GCSEs for that child, again, that

00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:16.599
is going to need creativity. But if that's not

00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:20.140
your focus, fine. But that is still possible

00:18:20.140 --> 00:18:23.059
because it all depends on the eyes of the parent

00:18:23.059 --> 00:18:26.400
and also the schools. Because what I see a lot

00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:29.480
is the artist isn't agreed because when the child

00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:32.480
does come in. they could get good qualifications.

00:18:33.019 --> 00:18:35.299
But at what cost? At what cost? And it's not

00:18:35.299 --> 00:18:39.319
impossible to get GCSEs or whatever that would

00:18:39.319 --> 00:18:42.500
look like for that child with an education out

00:18:42.500 --> 00:18:45.279
of school. And in my opinion, it's far more likely

00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:47.920
because a lot of children want to learn. It's

00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:50.200
ironic, isn't it? Yes, okay, academically they

00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:52.319
could get GCSEs, but if they're not able to access

00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:55.380
and walk through the door, they're not going

00:18:55.380 --> 00:18:57.759
to get anything. It just seems bizarre to me.

00:18:58.569 --> 00:19:03.109
That that would be an argument. Yeah. Yeah. And

00:19:03.109 --> 00:19:04.829
then you're wasting lots of time where they could

00:19:04.829 --> 00:19:08.450
have been studying with a safe adult at home.

00:19:08.509 --> 00:19:10.730
And then obviously that can affect them long

00:19:10.730 --> 00:19:14.190
term. Where, you know, other children, GCSEs

00:19:14.190 --> 00:19:16.509
and those kind of qualifications aren't appropriate.

00:19:16.690 --> 00:19:19.369
But either way, in both situations, the most

00:19:19.369 --> 00:19:22.069
paramount thing is that the child is having all

00:19:22.069 --> 00:19:26.009
their needs met. You know, people forget that

00:19:26.009 --> 00:19:29.470
it's not just an education plan. education health

00:19:29.470 --> 00:19:32.450
and care plan so that includes their emotional

00:19:32.450 --> 00:19:35.490
regulation and I speak to LA so often saying

00:19:35.490 --> 00:19:37.509
oh well we need to get them back into school

00:19:37.509 --> 00:19:39.769
I'm like without supporting the mental health

00:19:39.769 --> 00:19:43.390
first you are never going to see them again where

00:19:43.390 --> 00:19:46.049
another adult could if we put that first so we

00:19:46.049 --> 00:19:50.569
can begin as just therapy as just mentoring and

00:19:50.569 --> 00:19:52.890
then when that trust starts to come oh I can

00:19:52.890 --> 00:19:55.369
trust this adult or I can trust this provision

00:19:55.369 --> 00:19:57.950
that I like there's lots of things online that

00:19:58.240 --> 00:19:59.779
lots of children are engaged with that there's

00:19:59.779 --> 00:20:03.880
mind jam and which is like a gaming my biggest

00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:06.839
tip and my biggest passion with the otas and

00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:09.759
what it can look like and i do talk about this

00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:11.880
a lot with parents and design you know when i'm

00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:13.279
designing personal budgets and that kind of stuff

00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:17.460
special interest you can create a whole bespoke

00:20:17.460 --> 00:20:20.380
curriculum all of section f in all of their outcomes

00:20:20.380 --> 00:20:23.210
using special interest At the trampoline park

00:20:23.210 --> 00:20:26.130
we did. That was us. We met at the trampoline

00:20:26.130 --> 00:20:29.549
park. Yeah. And we met most of his EHCP traveling,

00:20:29.690 --> 00:20:32.250
getting ready, traveling there, having the trampoline

00:20:32.250 --> 00:20:34.490
park and coming back. It was a way of him meeting

00:20:34.490 --> 00:20:37.130
those social expectations on his EHCP as well.

00:20:37.369 --> 00:20:39.630
Rules and all of those things were met through

00:20:39.630 --> 00:20:41.910
the trampoline park. And that was what he needed.

00:20:42.329 --> 00:20:45.849
And that sensory, that's his OT regulation there.

00:20:45.950 --> 00:20:48.589
It was everything he needed. Yeah. And that is

00:20:48.589 --> 00:20:51.009
what. You know, if I look at an average week

00:20:51.009 --> 00:20:53.509
when I work with some children, I work with one

00:20:53.509 --> 00:20:56.210
child 15 hours at the moment. That, no time of

00:20:56.210 --> 00:20:59.029
that is spent with a pencil in his hand. But

00:20:59.029 --> 00:21:01.490
what it does look like is that, you know, it's

00:21:01.490 --> 00:21:04.109
sensory needs, it's social needs as well. And

00:21:04.109 --> 00:21:07.109
the learning is creative. You know, we're doing

00:21:07.109 --> 00:21:09.910
maths through Minecraft activities. We're doing

00:21:09.910 --> 00:21:13.089
science and, you know, we're creating Mario cakes.

00:21:13.309 --> 00:21:15.289
And you're extending that learning, but it is

00:21:15.289 --> 00:21:20.049
child -led. That's not... When you look at activity,

00:21:20.309 --> 00:21:23.650
you could say baking a cake. And although that's

00:21:23.650 --> 00:21:26.349
not a whole curriculum, what it is, it also is

00:21:26.349 --> 00:21:28.569
your maths because you're doing measuring and

00:21:28.569 --> 00:21:30.390
you're going to extend that learning naturally.

00:21:30.869 --> 00:21:33.049
All of those things, it's social skills, it's

00:21:33.049 --> 00:21:36.809
hygiene. Yeah, and there's so much. I think anything

00:21:36.809 --> 00:21:38.490
is learning when you change the way you look

00:21:38.490 --> 00:21:40.609
at it. It's interesting hearing you say that

00:21:40.609 --> 00:21:42.869
because I feel like with that bespoke way of

00:21:42.869 --> 00:21:45.789
learning, all learners, regardless of EHCP, would

00:21:45.789 --> 00:21:48.180
benefit from learning that way. So if anyone's

00:21:48.180 --> 00:21:49.779
listening and is thinking, well, yeah, all learners

00:21:49.779 --> 00:21:52.380
would benefit from that. Why just this section

00:21:52.380 --> 00:21:53.720
of children that have been failed by education?

00:21:53.940 --> 00:21:55.579
What's your thoughts on that? What would you

00:21:55.579 --> 00:21:58.559
say to them with that kind of thought process

00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:01.819
in mind? Well, so in a school, that's always

00:22:01.819 --> 00:22:03.579
the goal to keep everything practical and everything

00:22:03.579 --> 00:22:06.500
engaging because we want to prepare children

00:22:06.500 --> 00:22:09.200
for the real life. And so often we hear this

00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:10.839
at school, oh, we need to prepare them for real

00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:14.079
life. But this coming off the national curriculum,

00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:17.670
that is real life. Because it's not tick box

00:22:17.670 --> 00:22:19.329
exercises in real life. You need to learn how

00:22:19.329 --> 00:22:21.809
to problem solve. You need to learn how to communicate,

00:22:22.630 --> 00:22:25.250
to advocate for yourself. You know, I see so

00:22:25.250 --> 00:22:28.710
many ableist outcomes, you know, to talk about

00:22:28.710 --> 00:22:32.650
something not of interest. No, in reality, they

00:22:32.650 --> 00:22:34.190
will make friends with someone that wants to

00:22:34.190 --> 00:22:37.289
hear them talk about marry over 24 -7, whatever

00:22:37.289 --> 00:22:41.029
that may look like. And I think, and that is

00:22:41.029 --> 00:22:43.829
where, especially with a PDA profile. And the

00:22:43.829 --> 00:22:45.569
child needs autonomy over their learning and

00:22:45.569 --> 00:22:48.390
over, you know, to regulate their nervous system.

00:22:48.509 --> 00:22:51.109
This is where I do see the most of the O -Classes

00:22:51.109 --> 00:22:54.089
that I support. It makes sense, doesn't it? Because

00:22:54.089 --> 00:22:56.769
there are so many demands. even to get into the

00:22:56.769 --> 00:22:58.890
school building let alone in school as well so

00:22:58.890 --> 00:23:00.890
many demands their anxiety must be through the

00:23:00.890 --> 00:23:03.109
roof it makes sense to me that this particular

00:23:03.109 --> 00:23:05.910
profile of learner would need something more

00:23:05.910 --> 00:23:08.089
bespoke something that they have more autonomy

00:23:08.089 --> 00:23:10.289
over something they can make choices over rather

00:23:10.289 --> 00:23:13.750
than it being set and having to fit into a community

00:23:13.750 --> 00:23:17.369
a pre -built society that school is it makes

00:23:17.369 --> 00:23:19.309
sense to me that of course this type of learner

00:23:19.309 --> 00:23:22.099
would need that whether that's PDA traits through

00:23:22.099 --> 00:23:24.779
trauma which is what we were finding because

00:23:24.779 --> 00:23:26.660
he needed that sense of control and autonomy

00:23:26.660 --> 00:23:28.420
because his anxiety was so high because of his

00:23:28.420 --> 00:23:31.640
past trauma or that is actually an autistic PDA

00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:35.319
profile that you know is them and that's how

00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:38.099
their their brain works and that's how they you

00:23:38.099 --> 00:23:40.319
know see the world that's how they explore the

00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:43.319
world either way I can see why they would need

00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:47.299
that bespoke opportunities for autonomy yeah

00:23:47.299 --> 00:23:49.519
and that discreet learning like when you really

00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:51.440
you know you might just think you've sat and

00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:55.240
chatted to a child about you know a video of

00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:57.819
interest or you've spoken about an animal they

00:23:57.819 --> 00:24:01.720
like but what has really happened there you know

00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:04.779
I did a whole lesson about cats recently and

00:24:04.779 --> 00:24:07.900
we spoke about puberty because it was like why

00:24:07.900 --> 00:24:10.619
is your cat meowing like that they were on heat

00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:13.180
Or what would that look like in humans? And then

00:24:13.180 --> 00:24:15.299
out of nowhere, we've had this whole discussion

00:24:15.299 --> 00:24:18.240
about the life cycle and what puberty is going

00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:20.539
to be like, how his body is going to change.

00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:23.480
But because it's his special interest care, if

00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:25.500
you got out, like you said, twinkle worksheets

00:24:25.500 --> 00:24:27.880
all about puberty, they might not have been as

00:24:27.880 --> 00:24:30.400
engaged or interested or absolutely not wanting

00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:32.299
to do it. However, because you've gone through

00:24:32.299 --> 00:24:33.980
the special interest route, you've built that

00:24:33.980 --> 00:24:35.940
rapport, that relationship, he's controlling

00:24:35.940 --> 00:24:37.759
that narrative of conversation. It's a genuine

00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:40.119
interesting question. you can get in those really

00:24:40.119 --> 00:24:42.640
important learning. Absolutely, because, you

00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:46.619
know, it's that discreet way. And I find it quite

00:24:46.619 --> 00:24:49.000
hard because obviously a lot of educators and

00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:50.960
parents say, well, we've been so conditioned

00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:54.440
that learning needs to look X, Y way on a piece

00:24:54.440 --> 00:24:57.420
of paper. And sometimes worksheets can work,

00:24:57.460 --> 00:24:59.859
especially if they're visual aids at the side

00:24:59.859 --> 00:25:01.900
of something. Absolutely, you know, I work with

00:25:01.900 --> 00:25:04.940
many autistic learners, you know, you're rigid

00:25:04.940 --> 00:25:07.640
thinkers. They love a worksheet. Yeah, I've worked

00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:09.160
with students as well. That's the first thing

00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:10.559
they want to do that they find that regulating.

00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:12.819
They like the structure of that. Yeah, absolutely.

00:25:13.019 --> 00:25:16.099
Right. It's bespoke and individual for the learner.

00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:18.720
We spoke about the benefits and the comparisons

00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:23.019
between EOTAS and school. What about the comparison

00:25:23.019 --> 00:25:24.880
between EOTAS and homeschool? Because that's

00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:27.559
often the actual choice that parents are given.

00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:29.339
You know, they know that schools aren't meeting

00:25:29.339 --> 00:25:31.759
need. That isn't actually a choice anymore. Their

00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:36.400
choice is EOTAS package homeschool. I guess the

00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:37.900
benefit of homeschool is that you can do it right

00:25:37.900 --> 00:25:41.339
away. Yeah. But there's huge pitfalls in that

00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:44.440
as well of you lose all funding and responsibility

00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:47.059
from the local authority to meet your learner's

00:25:47.059 --> 00:25:49.259
needs. Are there anything else that you would

00:25:49.259 --> 00:25:51.579
compare the two, just so parents can have an

00:25:51.579 --> 00:25:53.500
informed decision if they're at that stage of

00:25:53.500 --> 00:25:57.140
making these choices? So if you asked me six

00:25:57.140 --> 00:25:59.180
months ago, my answer would be a little bit different.

00:25:59.579 --> 00:26:03.789
But now with the wellbeing... thing as well as

00:26:03.789 --> 00:26:05.190
the white paper i'll get to the white paper in

00:26:05.190 --> 00:26:07.869
a minute you're going to be just as restricted

00:26:07.869 --> 00:26:10.289
in home education as you are in the otas because

00:26:10.289 --> 00:26:12.589
that was the one thing like if you wanted to

00:26:12.589 --> 00:26:15.009
do it freely and support your child and you you

00:26:15.009 --> 00:26:17.789
have the financial means to do so and have them

00:26:17.789 --> 00:26:21.569
learning at home but now having to tick their

00:26:21.569 --> 00:26:24.250
boxes but now they're trying to put tick boxes

00:26:24.250 --> 00:26:27.710
on home education so you might as well get funding

00:26:27.710 --> 00:26:32.089
via otas and right if you feel comfortable have

00:26:32.089 --> 00:26:34.730
people involved as well because that was always

00:26:34.730 --> 00:26:39.509
the only difference before was okay it's obviously

00:26:39.509 --> 00:26:43.430
if you've got an EHCP it can be financed through

00:26:43.430 --> 00:26:46.549
through there and obviously you're you do have

00:26:46.549 --> 00:26:50.000
a you should be in theory like six weeks weekly

00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:53.400
meetings discussing the otas funding personal

00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:55.900
budget all that kind of stuff with the otas but

00:26:55.900 --> 00:26:57.759
people would choose home education because they

00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:00.319
want to do it and just not have people involved

00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:03.440
and the monitoring and the reports it's not just

00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:05.339
the learners that are losing trust in the system

00:27:05.339 --> 00:27:07.740
it's parents too i mean this kind of things happen

00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:10.160
after years and years of being absolutely let

00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:12.640
down and i totally understand why the parents

00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:15.019
are exhausted by the whole thing completely let

00:27:15.019 --> 00:27:18.960
down completely failed you know their whole family

00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:20.519
has been completely failed by this and I understand

00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:22.420
why they wouldn't want anything to do with them

00:27:22.420 --> 00:27:24.660
and there is absolutely no blame on my part I

00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:27.400
get it absolutely get that but what we're saying

00:27:27.400 --> 00:27:32.700
maybe is if you can find support with you know

00:27:32.700 --> 00:27:36.700
people like yourself to hold your hand to just

00:27:36.700 --> 00:27:40.039
try EOTAS to see if it feels comfortable you

00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:42.809
can always You can always go the homeschooling.

00:27:43.150 --> 00:27:47.390
Would that be your advice, do you think? To a

00:27:47.390 --> 00:27:49.670
certain extent, because especially now, because

00:27:49.670 --> 00:27:52.470
as soon as you electively home educate, and I've

00:27:52.470 --> 00:27:55.089
seen it where they've sneakily, someone's deregistered,

00:27:55.089 --> 00:27:57.309
hold off deregistering until you've had a YOTA

00:27:57.309 --> 00:28:00.750
secured. Because people will deregister and then

00:28:00.750 --> 00:28:02.329
they'll say, oh, I'm waiting for YOTAs when this

00:28:02.329 --> 00:28:04.549
is secured. And which is the right thing to do.

00:28:04.589 --> 00:28:06.009
You get your child out when, you know, when the

00:28:06.009 --> 00:28:08.289
alarm bells go off. And then once you've gone,

00:28:08.329 --> 00:28:10.740
I electively home educate, that's it. the LA

00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:14.380
go no you make it very clear it's not elective

00:28:14.380 --> 00:28:16.700
home education if you don't want it to be it's

00:28:16.700 --> 00:28:19.339
still when there's an EHCP involved it is still

00:28:19.339 --> 00:28:23.640
the LA's legal duty to provide section F of that

00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:27.039
EHCP it's not just to provide a tutor that ticks

00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:29.980
a box it is to provide what that child needs

00:28:29.980 --> 00:28:34.279
and obviously you have some sort of freedom over

00:28:34.279 --> 00:28:37.299
that as well and you know if your child can't

00:28:37.299 --> 00:28:41.099
access anything traditionally let's say that's

00:28:41.099 --> 00:28:42.539
when people go well I might as well just home

00:28:42.539 --> 00:28:45.339
educate and they they're all day what looks like

00:28:45.339 --> 00:28:48.539
to be I playing but that can still evolve in

00:28:48.539 --> 00:28:50.299
the otas as well because how are they getting

00:28:50.299 --> 00:28:51.819
their sensory needs met how are they getting

00:28:51.819 --> 00:28:54.359
all that that met and but yeah before what like

00:28:54.359 --> 00:28:56.000
I would like to home educate my children I've

00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:58.420
always thought yes I can see why you would do

00:28:58.420 --> 00:29:01.880
that you were in control of how they learn what

00:29:01.880 --> 00:29:03.799
they learn but you know that puts financial strain

00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:06.440
on the families they then can't work absolutely

00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:08.720
And it's going to be restrained now as well,

00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:11.880
because now home educated families are now having

00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:13.759
to provide reports and all that sort of stuff

00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:15.740
as well. Yeah, I think that's an interesting

00:29:15.740 --> 00:29:17.720
conversation to have. And obviously, I trust

00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:19.700
parents. I trust parents to make the right decision

00:29:19.700 --> 00:29:22.160
for their children. This comes with no judgment

00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:24.099
at all. I just think it's really good to... For

00:29:24.099 --> 00:29:26.220
you to know your options ultimately and then

00:29:26.220 --> 00:29:27.839
make the right decision for your child and your

00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:29.859
family. That's all we're saying, isn't it? Absolutely.

00:29:29.859 --> 00:29:31.339
You mentioned white paper. I think it's really

00:29:31.339 --> 00:29:33.259
important that we mention that. So the white

00:29:33.259 --> 00:29:35.720
paper came out recently. Changes are going to

00:29:35.720 --> 00:29:38.380
be happening in the coming years and decades

00:29:38.380 --> 00:29:41.559
on inclusion in mainstream school. That's the

00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:44.900
big umbrella thing that the white paper covered

00:29:44.900 --> 00:29:49.970
is the government want to include. more scnd

00:29:49.970 --> 00:29:53.289
children in mainstream schools have their needs

00:29:53.289 --> 00:29:55.609
met in mainstream schools and are promising funding

00:29:55.609 --> 00:29:58.630
and training in order to do this it's becomes

00:29:58.630 --> 00:30:02.089
from the great need and decreasing amount of

00:30:02.089 --> 00:30:04.609
scnd schools increasing amount of places and

00:30:04.609 --> 00:30:07.710
increasing need for these places that they want

00:30:07.710 --> 00:30:10.609
to meet these needs in mainstream school we've

00:30:10.609 --> 00:30:13.069
got lots of podcasts about the actual white paper

00:30:13.069 --> 00:30:15.430
so if you're if you're wanting to find out more

00:30:15.430 --> 00:30:18.390
about that find their white paper podcast from

00:30:18.390 --> 00:30:21.829
the SEND expert that's a few weeks ago but in

00:30:21.829 --> 00:30:24.529
regards to EOTAS that's what I'm interested here

00:30:24.529 --> 00:30:27.990
do you feel like this will negate the need for

00:30:27.990 --> 00:30:29.589
EOTAS because they're having their needs met

00:30:29.589 --> 00:30:33.069
in mainstream or do you feel like it will actually

00:30:33.069 --> 00:30:37.349
increase the need of unmet needs for these learners

00:30:37.349 --> 00:30:40.250
that are forced into mainstream school well I

00:30:40.250 --> 00:30:42.150
think from both sides, it's going to increase

00:30:42.150 --> 00:30:45.569
the need. Because in theory, if a child at four

00:30:45.569 --> 00:30:48.109
years old, which again, that's way too young,

00:30:48.190 --> 00:30:50.650
when they go to school in a mainstream and they,

00:30:50.730 --> 00:30:53.490
best case scenario, all this magical training

00:30:53.490 --> 00:30:56.049
or this magical funding gets the child's needs

00:30:56.049 --> 00:31:01.309
met in this setting. Amazing. In reality, with

00:31:01.309 --> 00:31:03.690
every other pressure of the national curriculum

00:31:03.690 --> 00:31:06.690
and all that stuff that can't meet need, yes,

00:31:06.750 --> 00:31:08.630
you're still going to have children at EDOTAS.

00:31:09.180 --> 00:31:11.819
But over that, what about the children that have

00:31:11.819 --> 00:31:15.339
already been failed? And egotas is also for children

00:31:15.339 --> 00:31:17.759
in SEND schools. You know, it's always, oh, well,

00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:20.000
they can't go to a SEND school. So as Bridget

00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:22.599
says. the most complex case is only going to

00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:26.819
the same school. What does complex mean? It wasn't

00:31:26.819 --> 00:31:28.440
clear. Well, she couldn't answer that question,

00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:31.259
could she? Does complex mean medical need? Does

00:31:31.259 --> 00:31:34.420
it mean physical need? Does it mean emotional

00:31:34.420 --> 00:31:37.359
need, regulation need, behavioural need? It wasn't

00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:39.859
clear, and I don't think they know. They don't.

00:31:40.299 --> 00:31:43.259
Most complex, I guess, means the highest banded

00:31:43.259 --> 00:31:46.160
children, which means that it's even more pressure

00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:50.880
for schools, SENCOs, parents to get the EHCP

00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:53.640
right, to get the banding right, to get the funding

00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:56.960
right, so that the learners that are absolutely

00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:01.460
eligible for appropriate and safe education are

00:32:01.460 --> 00:32:04.420
there. But that covers so many peoples that there

00:32:04.420 --> 00:32:06.740
won't be space for. There will always be failures

00:32:06.740 --> 00:32:09.210
within that. In every setting, like recently

00:32:09.210 --> 00:32:14.950
I've just supported a family and this young man,

00:32:15.109 --> 00:32:18.230
he was, you know, he's pre -verbal and he has

00:32:18.230 --> 00:32:21.329
very, very, what you would say, complex needs,

00:32:21.349 --> 00:32:26.309
to quote Bridget. A SEN school was not appropriate

00:32:26.309 --> 00:32:28.809
for him. Yeah, we've seen, I've had that in my

00:32:28.809 --> 00:32:31.890
class. Yeah. We have had to admit that we cannot

00:32:31.890 --> 00:32:34.710
meet need as a specialist provision. And why

00:32:34.710 --> 00:32:38.079
is that? Because... You know, and this is why

00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:40.460
a lot of children with a PDA profile or these

00:32:40.460 --> 00:32:43.000
SEND betweeners, the same reason they can't access

00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:46.599
a SEND classroom. I love SEND schools and I loved

00:32:46.599 --> 00:32:49.079
working at a SEND school. They're noisy. They

00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:50.859
are noisy, which you wouldn't expect because

00:32:50.859 --> 00:32:52.900
you've got motion learners. Yeah, you're putting

00:32:52.900 --> 00:32:56.259
the most noise sensitive learners with the loudest

00:32:56.259 --> 00:32:57.700
learners. You're putting the most vulnerable

00:32:57.700 --> 00:33:01.690
medical needs. students with the most volatile

00:33:01.690 --> 00:33:05.509
and you know you know trajectory schema children

00:33:05.509 --> 00:33:09.369
in one class we've I mean in my past I mean every

00:33:09.369 --> 00:33:11.890
class I've had I've had opposing domino effect

00:33:11.890 --> 00:33:15.470
regulations we had a pupil that was obsessed

00:33:15.470 --> 00:33:18.470
with pulling out wires with PMLD students who

00:33:18.470 --> 00:33:20.690
were peg fed I mean like you don't put them in

00:33:20.690 --> 00:33:22.829
a class together like you can only imagine how

00:33:22.829 --> 00:33:25.849
that's gonna go and yet I don't think I have

00:33:25.849 --> 00:33:28.849
ever had a class without that like Yes, they

00:33:28.849 --> 00:33:32.250
all are eligible for SENDs, school and provision,

00:33:32.430 --> 00:33:34.750
but what that looks like also sometimes isn't

00:33:34.750 --> 00:33:38.190
safe. Because, yeah, I'm seeing it a lot in different

00:33:38.190 --> 00:33:40.869
boroughs as well, because it can be just the

00:33:40.869 --> 00:33:43.910
social aspect of it. And that's always the biggest

00:33:43.910 --> 00:33:46.869
pressure as well. I think school's biggest argument

00:33:46.869 --> 00:33:49.269
and, you know, we have to go to school because

00:33:49.269 --> 00:33:51.549
that's where you socialise. I am sorry, but,

00:33:51.609 --> 00:33:54.569
you know, half an hour rush lunch is not social

00:33:54.569 --> 00:33:57.450
skills. Whereas on an EOTAS or HomeMed, you're

00:33:57.450 --> 00:33:59.029
going to trampoline, you're talking to children.

00:33:59.349 --> 00:34:04.430
If you want to play the social needs card, that's

00:34:04.430 --> 00:34:06.240
not happening in school. That's really interesting

00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:08.480
because that could be parents' fear of why they're

00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:10.280
wanting to keep them in school for longer, like

00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:11.599
they just don't want to lose that. So it's really

00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:13.179
interesting that that could actually be part

00:34:13.179 --> 00:34:15.860
of the package. And considered in the package

00:34:15.860 --> 00:34:19.940
is that need for those social interactions and

00:34:19.940 --> 00:34:21.639
those friendships to be made because that really

00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:23.739
could be holding parents back to making that

00:34:23.739 --> 00:34:25.659
decision. So that's interesting to know that

00:34:25.659 --> 00:34:28.739
that is an option. I guess the point is the package

00:34:28.739 --> 00:34:31.059
can be whatever you need it to be. It's about...

00:34:31.500 --> 00:34:33.360
advocating for that and it's hard for the parents

00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:35.820
to do that and is that something that you support

00:34:35.820 --> 00:34:37.760
yes could you tell me a little bit what that

00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:41.599
looks like how you support this this um yeah

00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:44.239
this as you're creating and designing it as you

00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:47.679
said so obviously so I take the EHCP and in best

00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:50.260
case scenario it is really accurate to the child's

00:34:50.260 --> 00:34:52.400
needs which we all know that that's not always

00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:54.920
the case but it is about what I do is I would

00:34:55.639 --> 00:34:57.699
I talk to the parents about what the child would

00:34:57.699 --> 00:34:59.360
actually need. And in best case scenario, what

00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:01.639
would they be accessing? And then I link it to

00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:05.300
a bespoke curriculum and to a personal budget

00:35:05.300 --> 00:35:09.900
and a YOTAS proposal and everything they need

00:35:09.900 --> 00:35:12.400
to get their outcomes met, make progress on their

00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:14.860
outcomes. Because, you know, parents are expected

00:35:14.860 --> 00:35:17.420
to do that. So when a YOTAS finally does get

00:35:17.420 --> 00:35:20.500
agreed, the parents are then told, right, you

00:35:20.500 --> 00:35:23.260
just go and link it to the outcomes on what they

00:35:23.260 --> 00:35:26.679
need. And they're like, oh, I'm not a teacher,

00:35:26.679 --> 00:35:29.739
I don't know how to do this. Neotas already agreed,

00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:32.840
it's just the package isn't. Yeah, it can depend.

00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:36.519
So, because obviously if a parent is going to

00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:40.480
tribunal to look at the EHCP and challenge sections

00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:45.179
B, F and I, we sometimes would like design roughly

00:35:45.179 --> 00:35:48.579
what Neotas can look like to meet section F before.

00:35:48.679 --> 00:35:52.079
But most times when it's secured, that's when

00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:54.840
we look at the personal budget and... to orchestrate

00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:58.760
how it would work for their child because often

00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:01.239
the LA would go, okay, Iota's secured, here's

00:36:01.239 --> 00:36:03.940
your tutor. And this parent's thinking, well,

00:36:04.039 --> 00:36:06.239
my child's not going to do 15 hours of tuition.

00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:08.860
So it's about being creative and evidencing it

00:36:08.860 --> 00:36:12.260
against the EHCP. And that is where I come in.

00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:15.820
They've been given a personal budget idea as

00:36:15.820 --> 00:36:18.079
well and you're working out how to spend that?

00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:20.179
No. And then you can always put that within that

00:36:20.179 --> 00:36:22.719
or no? Can you request the personal budget? Right.

00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:26.400
You can have, so that's like with direct payments,

00:36:26.420 --> 00:36:30.179
you can do it two or both kind of ways. So if

00:36:30.179 --> 00:36:32.719
a child, best case scenario, is going to an alternative

00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:35.320
provision, they normally get directly commissioned

00:36:35.320 --> 00:36:37.500
and then you can get a personal budget to meet

00:36:37.500 --> 00:36:39.760
the other needs. And sometimes if a child is

00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:42.800
struggling to leave the house, for example, that

00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:44.760
whole personal budget would look like what they

00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:48.159
need to look like with your OT, your SALT. anything

00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:51.139
they have on section f as well as you know resources

00:36:51.139 --> 00:36:55.460
and activities all to meet their needs and that

00:36:55.460 --> 00:36:57.280
would be done separately again you know la's

00:36:57.280 --> 00:36:59.800
do it differently but more often than not you

00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:02.239
know you can request a personal budget if you

00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:04.159
filled in all your child's needs and the provision

00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:07.800
section f are getting met and then just so parents

00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:09.719
are aware does it work a little bit like a personal

00:37:09.719 --> 00:37:13.710
assistant where the la gives you or the parent

00:37:13.710 --> 00:37:15.550
it's almost like a business they give you those

00:37:15.550 --> 00:37:18.150
direct payments it's your job to pay all the

00:37:18.150 --> 00:37:20.929
things and then keep receipts and and prove what

00:37:20.929 --> 00:37:22.369
it's been spent on is that is that kind of how

00:37:22.369 --> 00:37:24.289
it works it can look like that especially you

00:37:24.289 --> 00:37:26.150
know i think this is one thing that really overwhelms

00:37:26.150 --> 00:37:31.360
parents in terms of managing it because And this

00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:33.539
is why the LA don't like to do it too much, because

00:37:33.539 --> 00:37:36.059
when you're choosing your own providers, you

00:37:36.059 --> 00:37:37.739
might be getting given quite a lot of money to

00:37:37.739 --> 00:37:40.900
delegate that money to people. But then with

00:37:40.900 --> 00:37:42.880
the resources and the activities, yeah, you just

00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:45.059
keep the receipts and then you'll see evidence

00:37:45.059 --> 00:37:49.400
in the reports, in the annual review. But, you

00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:52.820
know, the simplest for both parents and for the

00:37:52.820 --> 00:37:57.079
LA is just that they go to an AP. That money

00:37:57.079 --> 00:37:59.219
goes straight to them. It goes to things like

00:37:59.219 --> 00:38:01.039
Mindjam and OT and they can directly commission

00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:04.039
it. But those places don't meet the needs of

00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:06.619
all children, especially if a PDA profile, you

00:38:06.619 --> 00:38:09.820
need flexibility. You might say on there that

00:38:09.820 --> 00:38:13.460
you're going to, I don't know, go to a soft play

00:38:13.460 --> 00:38:16.980
or buy a certain Minecraft book, let's say. In

00:38:16.980 --> 00:38:20.400
reality, that's not going to happen. Novelty,

00:38:20.420 --> 00:38:23.139
all that sort of stuff. So as long as it meets

00:38:23.139 --> 00:38:25.639
the same needs, you could justify it. And that's

00:38:25.639 --> 00:38:27.139
when you discuss it in the end review and all

00:38:27.139 --> 00:38:28.539
that sort of stuff. As long as it's meeting the

00:38:28.539 --> 00:38:30.320
outcome, as long as you're still working towards

00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:33.900
the HCV. And that's where whoever's managing

00:38:33.900 --> 00:38:36.639
that, whether that's you or the parent or, you

00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:39.780
know, whoever's coming in can justify their choices

00:38:39.780 --> 00:38:42.380
within that moment. It makes perfect sense. It

00:38:42.380 --> 00:38:44.840
really does. So we've spoken a lot about parents

00:38:44.840 --> 00:38:46.500
wanting to get involved and how they would get

00:38:46.500 --> 00:38:48.000
involved in this. What about teachers listening

00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:50.400
to this? If they want to get involved in this

00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:51.940
line of work, you know, you said right at the

00:38:51.940 --> 00:38:53.579
beginning that you got into it because it works

00:38:53.579 --> 00:38:54.960
around your family. You're really passionate

00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:56.739
about this. There's other teachers listening

00:38:56.739 --> 00:38:59.000
to this. You know, how do you start getting involved

00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:01.280
in this? Are there agencies that you go to? Is

00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:03.159
it always self -employed? What do you do? It

00:39:03.159 --> 00:39:06.380
can look differently because there are bigger

00:39:06.380 --> 00:39:12.119
organisations and places that will have EOTAS.

00:39:12.460 --> 00:39:14.619
children come into there and then that work goes

00:39:14.619 --> 00:39:18.099
out that way um obviously yeah if you become

00:39:18.099 --> 00:39:21.019
self -employed and want to meet the needs of

00:39:21.019 --> 00:39:23.980
children outside of the school system that often

00:39:23.980 --> 00:39:28.420
is word of mouth parents again they don't they

00:39:28.420 --> 00:39:30.000
don't necessarily trust people that have come

00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:32.679
from certain provisions they want a certain human

00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:35.300
yes you can have all you know you have all the

00:39:35.300 --> 00:39:37.599
qualifications but they're looking at will this

00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:39.659
person follow my child's lead will this person

00:39:39.659 --> 00:39:42.800
be able to meet my child's needs so it does it's

00:39:42.800 --> 00:39:45.599
very old school it's you know word of mouth it

00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:48.360
does come that way as well but I would say yes

00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:50.760
because that's what made me leave I loved working

00:39:50.760 --> 00:39:53.199
in SEN school I was very passionate about teaching

00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:56.340
RSE and emotional regulation I loved it but not

00:39:56.340 --> 00:39:58.500
only personally for my family to be flexible

00:39:58.500 --> 00:40:03.340
it was more every year we're turning away 80

00:40:03.340 --> 00:40:06.710
to 100 children that where are they going in

00:40:06.710 --> 00:40:09.130
and it was just like what about these these children

00:40:09.130 --> 00:40:11.630
that just it's not right for or there's not a

00:40:11.630 --> 00:40:15.309
space for and that is ultimately you know I tried

00:40:15.309 --> 00:40:18.250
so many years to be that good egg in the system

00:40:18.250 --> 00:40:20.869
and still was working out a system a little bit

00:40:20.869 --> 00:40:23.769
as well but then it's just like well at what

00:40:23.769 --> 00:40:27.730
point do I have to meet these needs out it's

00:40:27.730 --> 00:40:29.590
exactly why I got into foster care it's interesting

00:40:29.590 --> 00:40:31.429
you it's really hard isn't it when you see a

00:40:31.429 --> 00:40:34.480
need And it's not being met by other people.

00:40:34.519 --> 00:40:35.920
And you're kind of looking around and thinking,

00:40:36.039 --> 00:40:38.880
well, I guess I could do that then. And I guess

00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:41.760
it's that feeling, isn't it? Well, I can't be

00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:43.699
waiting for other people to fix this problem

00:40:43.699 --> 00:40:45.860
when actually I obviously have a passion for

00:40:45.860 --> 00:40:48.800
it. It will support me and my family as well

00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:50.920
as supporting something that I feel really passionate

00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:53.679
about that should be supported and these children

00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:55.420
that should be supported and not let down. If

00:40:55.420 --> 00:40:57.420
that's you listening to this, this really could

00:40:57.420 --> 00:41:00.400
be. an important role that you could feel that,

00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:02.780
you know, there's so many alternatives way of

00:41:02.780 --> 00:41:05.940
teaching. This is a really exciting one, I would

00:41:05.940 --> 00:41:08.860
say, that you get to work bespoke, you get to

00:41:08.860 --> 00:41:11.119
work one -to -one with learners. You know, I've

00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:12.659
done, I know this isn't teaching, but I've done

00:41:12.659 --> 00:41:15.039
teaching. It's really satisfying to work in such

00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:18.940
a bespoke way alongside a learner and to teach

00:41:18.940 --> 00:41:21.019
them how they want to teach and learn how they

00:41:21.019 --> 00:41:23.280
want to learn. And to see them thrive in that

00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:26.559
is so rewarding. It's all the best parts of teaching,

00:41:26.679 --> 00:41:29.500
really. And you get to put emotional regulation

00:41:29.500 --> 00:41:32.539
first. You really do. And that's always been

00:41:32.539 --> 00:41:35.019
my ethos when I worked in mainstream, when I

00:41:35.019 --> 00:41:37.699
worked in SEN schools, emotional regulation first.

00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:39.960
But in a classroom, you do have the pressures

00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:42.639
of everything else, you know, and you do get

00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:44.460
to have relationships with your children. But,

00:41:44.519 --> 00:41:46.820
you know, when you are, you know, even if you're

00:41:46.820 --> 00:41:49.719
doing a group of Yota's children or one -to -one,

00:41:49.780 --> 00:41:52.099
however that looks like, you get to have that

00:41:52.099 --> 00:41:54.380
relationship and make the learning cyber spot.

00:41:54.750 --> 00:41:56.570
without all the pressures of, oh, I need to evidence

00:41:56.570 --> 00:41:58.590
that right way. You do evidence it because you're

00:41:58.590 --> 00:42:01.210
going to be, you know, their advocate in the

00:42:01.210 --> 00:42:04.469
annual reviews and that sort of stuff. But ultimately,

00:42:04.630 --> 00:42:07.250
you get to see the joy of learning come back

00:42:07.250 --> 00:42:12.070
in that non -traditional way. And that is the

00:42:12.070 --> 00:42:14.989
feeling that feels so good. Life skills and,

00:42:15.030 --> 00:42:17.070
you know, having those conversations when you

00:42:17.070 --> 00:42:18.730
don't have time because right now it's science,

00:42:18.789 --> 00:42:21.429
I have to do this. But actually you get to...

00:42:21.929 --> 00:42:24.690
be flexible and actually because in a classroom

00:42:24.690 --> 00:42:27.809
even an SEN classroom you know you have to teach

00:42:27.809 --> 00:42:30.030
the curriculum to a certain degree you've got

00:42:30.030 --> 00:42:33.110
this timetable and then when are you meant to

00:42:33.110 --> 00:42:36.190
sit down and look at these EHEP outcomes I know

00:42:36.190 --> 00:42:38.730
you've got your wonderful you know sensory curriculum

00:42:38.730 --> 00:42:42.110
and stuff but really looking at those ones there's

00:42:42.110 --> 00:42:44.590
ones about eating there's what you know outcomes

00:42:44.590 --> 00:42:47.489
that are sensory completely different levels

00:42:47.489 --> 00:42:50.730
in yeah in my timetable we had two hours a week

00:42:51.179 --> 00:42:54.539
to try and fit all of those random outcomes in

00:42:54.539 --> 00:42:57.239
that don't fit into any lesson because so often

00:42:57.239 --> 00:42:59.539
the most important outcomes, I would argue for

00:42:59.539 --> 00:43:01.840
our learners, are out of lessons. They're not

00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:03.380
lesson -based at all. They're about independence.

00:43:03.639 --> 00:43:06.539
They're about dressing skills, hygiene skills,

00:43:06.920 --> 00:43:09.280
transitioning between things, you know, all of

00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:11.179
those things. So, yeah, we actually had, it was

00:43:11.179 --> 00:43:14.099
just called IEP time because... Because we just

00:43:14.099 --> 00:43:16.380
needed that time to work on those really important

00:43:16.380 --> 00:43:19.659
outcomes. What's physio things, you know, all

00:43:19.659 --> 00:43:21.400
those things that don't necessarily fit into

00:43:21.400 --> 00:43:25.719
a lesson. It's really important. Most important,

00:43:25.960 --> 00:43:30.039
arguably. Absolutely. Because otherwise, you

00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:32.400
know, what happens, this all goes back down to

00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:36.579
the EHCP. Because still, I still see children,

00:43:36.760 --> 00:43:40.219
they're on IOTAS, but their outcomes are still

00:43:40.219 --> 00:43:42.940
really ableist. So it's like, well... I could

00:43:42.940 --> 00:43:46.739
target that, but how do I target that? There's

00:43:46.739 --> 00:43:48.440
kind of two things in that regard, isn't it?

00:43:48.500 --> 00:43:51.760
It's making sure that your IATUS package is secured,

00:43:51.780 --> 00:43:53.980
but then also maybe having a legal team look

00:43:53.980 --> 00:43:56.639
at the AACP and make those amendments that are

00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:59.579
needed so that it's suitable for the provision

00:43:59.579 --> 00:44:01.840
and suitable for the child and the situation

00:44:01.840 --> 00:44:04.360
that's arisen. I suppose there's two different

00:44:04.360 --> 00:44:07.119
things maybe in balance there. Yeah, so I collab

00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:11.420
with a particular SEND law advocate. Am I allowed

00:44:11.420 --> 00:44:15.070
to? say yeah I work quite often with Amy from

00:44:15.070 --> 00:44:17.969
the inclusive class and we have a bit of a tag

00:44:17.969 --> 00:44:21.630
team going on because when she's looking at the

00:44:21.630 --> 00:44:25.449
EHCP and she's securing that EHCP she might ping

00:44:25.449 --> 00:44:27.789
it to me and go okay with these outcomes would

00:44:27.789 --> 00:44:30.369
that be met on EOTAS because ultimately when

00:44:30.369 --> 00:44:33.210
she does an amazing job of securing the EOTAS

00:44:33.210 --> 00:44:35.230
you know sometimes that looks like tribunal sometimes

00:44:35.230 --> 00:44:37.670
she gets it conceded before because she's incredible

00:44:37.670 --> 00:44:41.300
and then when it comes to me I then got outcomes

00:44:41.300 --> 00:44:44.340
that are all from the reports because obviously

00:44:44.340 --> 00:44:46.480
she has to take it all from the reports and evidenced.

00:44:46.980 --> 00:44:49.320
And then I can just link it really, really well

00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:52.739
because that is when EOTAS really thrives because

00:44:52.739 --> 00:44:55.219
it's their needs on that EHCP. You're linking

00:44:55.219 --> 00:44:58.360
the provisions to that EHCP and that's when you

00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:00.920
see progress. And it's all relevant. It's all

00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:03.300
achievable. It's realistic and all of those things

00:45:03.300 --> 00:45:05.300
that we need in the EHCP. But when they come

00:45:05.300 --> 00:45:07.199
from a mainstream, it's really, really hard.

00:45:07.260 --> 00:45:09.699
Like recently I had... And when it goes to tribunal,

00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:13.340
it goes, so section E is the outcomes. But then

00:45:13.340 --> 00:45:16.000
it only goes, it's normally B, F and I. So needs,

00:45:16.059 --> 00:45:18.780
provision and placement that get taken to tribunal.

00:45:18.980 --> 00:45:22.219
So I've seen this amazingly rewritten B, F and

00:45:22.219 --> 00:45:26.079
I that screams the OTAS recently. And then the

00:45:26.079 --> 00:45:28.639
outcomes still say to sit still at desk. Except

00:45:28.639 --> 00:45:32.139
going to the playground with other friends. And

00:45:32.139 --> 00:45:34.920
it's like, you can't meet that without a role.

00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:38.380
And that's when you would obviously change it

00:45:38.380 --> 00:45:40.440
in an annual review, link them to Section F,

00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:42.260
because it does say things like, you know, I

00:45:42.260 --> 00:45:44.079
see this is a whole different conversation, but

00:45:44.079 --> 00:45:47.119
you see all these ableist outcomes, which say,

00:45:47.179 --> 00:45:49.579
oh, to sit still for a child with ADHD. I've

00:45:49.579 --> 00:45:51.579
seen one with eye contact before. Oh, don't,

00:45:51.579 --> 00:45:56.920
it rages me. What does that mean? I don't really

00:45:56.920 --> 00:45:58.920
want to fit in. Like you said, talking about

00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:00.400
a different topic. I mean, I've seen it all.

00:46:00.659 --> 00:46:04.659
They are really shocking. podcast about EHCPs

00:46:04.659 --> 00:46:05.860
as well so if your parent listens to this then

00:46:05.860 --> 00:46:08.199
this is panicking you we've got a couple with

00:46:08.199 --> 00:46:10.679
lawyers that literally go through every section

00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:12.139
of what it should and shouldn't include and what

00:46:12.139 --> 00:46:15.360
should be in what section so yeah do find that

00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:17.420
if you're if you're panicking listen to this

00:46:17.420 --> 00:46:20.840
because it is important it really is and I'm

00:46:20.840 --> 00:46:23.780
always happy to like collab with you know with

00:46:23.780 --> 00:46:27.440
advocates and looking at EOTAS on the ground

00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:30.320
because yes they can get it secured and do all

00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:32.719
that but I like to call myself a bit of a middleman

00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:35.400
recently because I, you know, although I do still

00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:38.179
do the providing, that middleman of taking it

00:46:38.179 --> 00:46:40.599
from the law advocates or the parents have done

00:46:40.599 --> 00:46:43.699
the draft of you themselves to getting it practically

00:46:43.699 --> 00:46:45.900
on the ground. Your parents are listening to

00:46:45.900 --> 00:46:47.800
this and they're not necessarily living local

00:46:47.800 --> 00:46:49.519
to you because are you in Essex, are you? No,

00:46:49.539 --> 00:46:51.880
I'm originally from Essex. I live in Dorset now.

00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:54.159
You're in Dorset. OK, so if you're in the Dorset

00:46:54.159 --> 00:46:57.119
area, then of course that might be an option

00:46:57.119 --> 00:47:00.099
to work with you. But you're also offering other

00:47:00.099 --> 00:47:02.260
support systems, aren't you, through your website

00:47:02.260 --> 00:47:03.280
and courses. Do you want to explain a little

00:47:03.280 --> 00:47:04.860
bit about that? Because parents might be listening

00:47:04.860 --> 00:47:07.380
that aren't living in your area at all that can't

00:47:07.380 --> 00:47:09.500
access you, but love the way you're working and

00:47:09.500 --> 00:47:11.099
love the way you're talking and still want access

00:47:11.099 --> 00:47:16.480
to you. How does that look? So I can still be

00:47:16.480 --> 00:47:18.000
with you and work with you and do all that stuff

00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:20.840
that I have described. So most of my kind of

00:47:20.840 --> 00:47:25.539
EOTIS advocacy is all online. I do still offer

00:47:25.539 --> 00:47:28.289
that, even that is bespoke, because that... may

00:47:28.289 --> 00:47:31.050
look like supporting you to prep you for a meeting.

00:47:31.170 --> 00:47:33.469
It may look like coming to a meeting. And more

00:47:33.469 --> 00:47:35.150
often than not, what I'm seeing a lot recently

00:47:35.150 --> 00:47:38.869
is that I will just discuss with you online and

00:47:38.869 --> 00:47:41.469
I will design your personal budget and your YOTAS

00:47:41.469 --> 00:47:44.409
and evidence all that based on the reports and

00:47:44.409 --> 00:47:47.269
EHGP that you've already got. You can do that

00:47:47.269 --> 00:47:49.230
completely remotely? You don't have to be in

00:47:49.230 --> 00:47:50.309
the county? No, you don't have to go with me.

00:47:50.369 --> 00:47:52.570
I do it all VR, so you can go on my calendar

00:47:52.570 --> 00:47:57.760
on my website. which is victorious .co .uk. So

00:47:57.760 --> 00:47:59.219
you can just go on my website, book a calendar.

00:47:59.340 --> 00:48:01.880
I offer free one -to -ones just to chat because

00:48:01.880 --> 00:48:03.659
sometimes people are just like, oh, am I on the

00:48:03.659 --> 00:48:06.139
right track? And I would do it that way. But

00:48:06.139 --> 00:48:08.539
my one -to -one support, we can just have a support

00:48:08.539 --> 00:48:11.019
chat through that or it can be straight away.

00:48:11.159 --> 00:48:13.099
Lauren, I need you to design this. Here's my

00:48:13.099 --> 00:48:16.340
EACP and I'll get cracking with a person. Great.

00:48:16.519 --> 00:48:20.179
Sounds amazing. I'll leave your website down

00:48:20.179 --> 00:48:22.780
below because... It really can be helpful. And

00:48:22.780 --> 00:48:24.920
parents are nervous about who to trust with this.

00:48:24.980 --> 00:48:26.239
So if they're listening to this and think, yeah,

00:48:26.320 --> 00:48:28.659
you get it. You've obviously done it before.

00:48:28.739 --> 00:48:33.090
You have the right heart for it. my child to

00:48:33.090 --> 00:48:35.190
support us in this. It would be really lovely

00:48:35.190 --> 00:48:37.230
to them to have access to you, no matter where

00:48:37.230 --> 00:48:40.489
they are. So that's such a great offer that you're

00:48:40.489 --> 00:48:42.489
offering there. Did you say that you've also

00:48:42.489 --> 00:48:45.030
got some courses coming up? Yes, so I'm doing

00:48:45.030 --> 00:48:47.710
some workshops because I'm doing like AOTAs on

00:48:47.710 --> 00:48:49.929
the ground kind of workshops. So just supporting

00:48:49.929 --> 00:48:52.030
parents and professionals are more than welcome

00:48:52.030 --> 00:48:54.550
as well, where we look at what a bespoke curriculum

00:48:54.550 --> 00:48:56.829
could look like, how to evidence a personal budget,

00:48:56.929 --> 00:48:59.170
so that especially financially, if you want to

00:48:59.170 --> 00:49:01.510
access that to do it yourself, I will be providing.

00:49:01.610 --> 00:49:03.650
all that kind of stuff how it looks like when

00:49:03.650 --> 00:49:06.010
it's on the ground how do you evidence that how

00:49:06.010 --> 00:49:08.630
to collaborate with professionals and yeah and

00:49:08.630 --> 00:49:10.210
kind of going through that it's not a one -size

00:49:10.210 --> 00:49:12.849
-fits -all and bits of the conversation we've

00:49:12.849 --> 00:49:15.369
had today so I am running a workshop on the 4th

00:49:15.369 --> 00:49:17.929
of June but I will be doing that again and I

00:49:17.929 --> 00:49:20.829
also like do emotional regulation support and

00:49:20.829 --> 00:49:25.489
things like that as well okay amazing so there

00:49:25.489 --> 00:49:27.929
yeah so you they've got some coming up that will

00:49:27.929 --> 00:49:29.489
be available on the website as well so if you're

00:49:29.489 --> 00:49:31.679
interested in any of that Click on the website,

00:49:31.940 --> 00:49:34.880
either sign up to a consultation or look at the

00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:38.760
workshops. Amazing. So helpful. We haven't covered

00:49:38.760 --> 00:49:41.820
this crucial topic and it's more crucial than

00:49:41.820 --> 00:49:45.599
ever, I would say. The needs for these bespoke

00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:48.219
offers are more and more needed. So it's really

00:49:48.219 --> 00:49:50.599
nice to be able to unpick this. It's really hard

00:49:50.599 --> 00:49:54.039
with acronyms often that people throw them around

00:49:54.039 --> 00:49:55.960
like we know what they are and it's really nice

00:49:55.960 --> 00:49:58.420
to have the opportunity. You know, you can't

00:49:58.420 --> 00:50:00.360
do it in a 90 second social media post. It's

00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:01.699
really nice to have the opportunity to really

00:50:01.699 --> 00:50:05.119
delve into it and unpick it and with no bias,

00:50:05.199 --> 00:50:08.099
you know, and really think about, you know, what

00:50:08.099 --> 00:50:11.059
is best for your child. So thank you. I'm sure

00:50:11.059 --> 00:50:12.940
it'll be really helpful for professional supporting

00:50:12.940 --> 00:50:15.099
parents to make the decision, but also parents

00:50:15.099 --> 00:50:16.820
to make the decision as well. It's really nice

00:50:16.820 --> 00:50:18.679
to know what you're agreeing to. So thank you

00:50:18.679 --> 00:50:20.559
for that, Laura. Thank you for having me, Jordan.

00:50:20.639 --> 00:50:22.400
It's great to see you and speak to you again

00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:26.150
and maybe again. Until next time. Until next

00:50:26.150 --> 00:50:27.710
time. Thank you. Bye.