Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education
teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything
communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson
ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged
4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in
the field answering your questions and sharing
our knowledge and experience working alongside
our beautiful young people. Let's get started.
Hello everybody and welcome to the Sensory Classroom
podcast. My name is Jordan and today I'm joined
by Abby and Kirstie from OurSpace. They've been
here before in episode 37 but they're back again
to talk about a new intervention they're using,
RISE therapy. We've been speaking about lots
about this on the podcast recently, my new intervention,
and these guys have been using it in their settings
and bringing it to schools. So we're going to
catch up today on how that's going. Hi ladies.
Hello. First of all, if people haven't listened
to our previous episode together, do you want
to explain a little bit about what our space
is and how you support the SEND community? Yeah,
of course. Yeah. So I'm Abby and this is Kirsten.
People call us whatever because we just get mixed
up all the time. But yeah, we have a Send Respite
Centre for families in kind of West Yorkshire
area, supporting them on evenings, weekends,
holidays. And from that, we've then gone to provide
respite for mainstream teaching staff, taking
children out that are in a mainstream classroom
who need the extra support and a pop -up sensory
session. So and then we've been offering. delivering
cpd to families as well as teaching staff so
that families have got these strategies and interventions
at home as well so we kind of started off as
a respite center and we're now covering a range
of help and support oh yeah and the need is only
getting greater in our schools isn't it is that
what you're finding too yeah in every in every
single school now we kind of before it was One
or two we were finding that had sort of a huge
intake of children that were meant to be maybe
in a provision or a special school. And then
they're in a mainstream school and not coping
overly well at times. But now it's every school
we go into. Every school's different. Some have
their own provision and have the staff, but others
don't have anything. So we're in a school at
the moment where they need us more than anything
because they don't have the staff at all. Yeah,
they don't have the staff. the room, the provision.
Some they've got, you've got these amazing setups
and they've got everything you could imagine.
But again, the staff are saying, I don't know
what I'm doing. Do you know what I mean? So they
genuinely want to do the best they can and they
just don't know how to do that. So that's when
we kind of go in and look like crazy humans.
It just kind of shows this is what you need to
do. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know if you've
noticed the narrative change, even just this
year of schools saying, we're waiting for a special
provision place. And now they've started saying.
They're not saying that anymore. They're aware
that it might not ever come and actually they're
having to build these makeshift clubs, classrooms,
hubs, cupboards, whatever they've got because
they know it's unlikely. Yeah, they know it's
unlikely that these children may never go to
a specialist provision before secondary school,
if then. Have you noticed that narrative shift
as well? Yeah, everyone's just, everywhere's
just adapting out there. Nowhere's... like you
say nowhere's just making do until they get that
place in a special school now they know they've
got to make those changes um straight away which
is amazing and some schools again we've noticed
are quite set in their mainstream ways and we're
kind of screaming from the outside of like you've
got to change for these children and and then
some are just especially the ones we work in
they are absolutely amazing they want to do everything
they can to make those changes for these children
even though it's a massive struggle. And it's
not easy at all, is it? Because it is built for
mainstream and the curriculum's built for mainstream.
So when we go in there, we're trying to keep
it mainstream, but adapt it so that they can
fit in and they can belong there and they can
thrive as well, which we definitely find, we
feel that we're helping it works, don't we? Yeah.
You definitely are. Reading your parent testimonies
and the school testimonies, you know you are.
You are an essential part of your community.
I just think if only we could duplicate you guys
and spread you out across the world because every
county needs our space. I don't know if that's
your big plan is to like open some kind of enterprise
and franchise yourself because it is so needed.
Every school now has children with needs. that
aren't being met in mainstream, that are there
for the long term, that need some alternative,
that need training for their staff, that need
to know what to do, what learning looks like,
what's important for these learners, how to regulate,
how to connect with these learners in order to
help them learn, but also feel safe in school,
want to come to school and all of those things.
It's essential, really. So, yeah, don't doubt
yourself. that's where if they're not feeling
safe that's where we're getting all our problems
and we keep saying it don't they're just probably
not feeling very safe right now we know that's
a new face they're not feeling safe and that's
where you get all these behavioral situations
you get all these meltdowns and it's all to do
with them feeling if they feel safe they're gonna
open up to new ideas open up to adapting open
up to change and school i think can feel really
unsafe for them at times and i don't mean that
in terms of They can escape. It's not about that
safety. It's about them internally feeling safe.
The plan is to go wider than West Yorkshire.
Of course it is. But we're so, like, precious
over it as well. Do you know, like, you want
people to do it like you do it. You know, you
want them to love the kids like you love the
kids. And I think we find that the hardest. We've
got a really small team. There's just us two.
And then there's three, well, probably four with
Jess as well. There's like four team members
who... we trust dearly with the children but
that's always a real real struggle because you
see some people that working with send children
and i think papa probably wouldn't do it that
way and i want to see more of this and that's
really tricky to let go of i think probably the
hardest i completely agree and and with the best
training in the world you can't train people
to love the children And it's so hard when you're
not working with them day to day, modelling day
to day on what that looks like, what that connection
looks like, which you guys have in abundance.
It would be really hard to trust that they're
doing it in that loving, connected, focused way.
Yeah, it leads quite nicely onto what I wanted
to speak to you guys about today. I saw that
in you. and I feel like that's why I was kind
of drawn to you guys really because I saw that
love that you have for what you do for the kids
you work with you know unashamedly love them
like no shame no judgment just just celebrating
and validating everything that they are and everything
that they do which is needed in mainstream because
so often without even meaning to there's judgment
and shame and and it's looked at as negative
behaviors it's just the wrong environment and
i can see that in you in how you're talking about
the children in your videos what you're doing
with i can see that and what i was noticing in
your videos was you were using interventions
that everyone was using but you were talking
a lot about how you adapt it how you need to
adapt it how the children need something different
and it was exactly what me and sammy were feeling
as well before we started rise it was exactly
what we were thinking like why are we having
why in our gut are we having to feel like we
have to manipulate and change these existing
interventions in order to suit our kids and I
saw that in you guys as well and we were currently
in really really early talks about rise and I
was watching your videos and hearing your descriptions
and thinking yeah we're on the same page we're
both seeing that it isn't a one -size -fits -all
these kids need something a little bit different
a little bit more bespoke a little bit more individualized
a bit more child -led rather than us placing
something on them we need to be kind of listening
to what they're asking of us a little bit more
and I could see that in you so yeah to be really
transparent about everything I invited you guys
onto the training didn't I was like come along
come to level one come to level two I just think
this is something that you guys are not even
realizing that you're needing because you're
kind of creating it all on your own anyway and
it's definitely what me and Sammy were doing
and rather than us all recreating the wheel you
know we've got this thing I'd love to hear what
you think about it do you want to tell us a little
bit more about your You know, that's from my
point of view, looking in from your social media.
But what was really happening there before I
reached out to you in that way? Yeah, we were
kind of like in our own, our space and going
into the schools, doing quite a structured routine
all the time, weren't we? Yeah. And we found
this scheme that we decided to follow that was
specifically designed for SEND Children. But
we just found that it wasn't working for all
the children. Some of them weren't really getting
involved in some of the things and there were
certain rules that you couldn't do. with the
children and we just found it was difficult because
every child were different and they don't always
react in the same way so we tried to adapt it
ourselves really didn't we yeah and when we did
when we did change it and videoed it and put
it onto our socials we did get backlash and we
did get comments and but weirdly i still felt
really positive about it because i just thought
no i know what we're doing is working um so even
i said oh you're not meant to do this and i were
like but look at the kids like They're there,
they're engaged, they're thriving. We're getting
communication from them, which some, you know,
we're even getting the ready, steady way. And
then when I get in the eye contact, we've never
had eye contact on go before. So we were like,
oh no, are we getting this? But then at the same
time, I was like, I don't care. It's working.
This is working. And I think from an out, from
our point of view, when you did contact us. and
kind of explained what it looked like I was like
this is what it is this is what we're doing this
is what we want to actually have the training
in and be able to say this is what we're doing
we're not just making our own stuff up you know
we've actually got a structure and probably that's
what we lacked is the structure of it do you
know what i mean whereas that's what you've given
us if that makes sense but what's good about
it yeah almost like permission to be able to
listen to the children and permission to be able
to adapt and be a bit more flexible but around
a structure that has a name that you can send
people information for that you know has evidence
based rather than yeah feeling like well you
are exactly right and everything should be individualized
of course it should but we were finding the same
thing we were having this battle of okay well
if it's not that then what are we doing you know
and that is where it came from right well let's
just make up our own then if we if we're not
doing this right because i want to honor you
know the training But that doesn't feel right.
So then what is it? And that's what it came from.
We kind of wrote a checklist of all of our things
that we wanted to meet. We wanted it to be touchable.
We wanted to be child led. We wanted the children
to be able to come freely in and out of the space.
And we wanted it to be connection focused. And
we wanted it to be exciting. And the children
wanted to be there without adult guiding or prompting.
We had a massive list. Cheap to run. That was
a huge thing because the intervention we were
using before was really expensive to run with
resources. break you know we wanted it to be
stuff that we've always thought it's true and
it's that's a big barrier to interventions that
you do is cost and budget and I find you just
get quite frustrated then you know like you've
just put all of this money into something and
then it gets broken and then you think well we
didn't manage to try it too much and we want
to keep repeating it so that it gets repetitive
for them so then you'd buy it again and again
you know because you were so dedicated to making
it work and I think that's what we were finding
is that we were probably getting more frustrated
after the intervention of kind of well we set
all that up and it didn't work and they weren't
interested and they've used the stuff for something
else and they've mixed it was making me get frustrated
and more rigid that oh no don't touch it because
like you'll break it almost like that's our last
one we've run out of budget like And then that
goes against everything that I actually believe
in because I was so precious about these toys
and our budget more than I was about connecting
with the learners, which is just, it was happening
naturally, you know, it wasn't planned for, but
I was naturally like, like, oh no, no, no, actually
that's enough balloons now. Cause actually that
we've got, they've got to last another month
before we get our next budget or whatever it
is. And actually that it just totally missed
the point. It shouldn't be based around budget
and expensive resources and high tech stuff.
It should be just about connection. And we've
got in our bodies enough to do that with, let
alone, you know, in the cupboard, we've got toilet
rolls and, you know, you can have all sorts of
fun with water and stuff that we've already got.
Yeah. So yeah, we came together and discussed
what that could look like in an ideal world and
we've been testing it. You guys were part of
the first training group of Level 2. Do you want
to tell us a little bit more about what you got
from Level 1 and 2 and what kind of impact it
has had on our space? It's changed so much that
we do. I mean, I have a very ADHD profile. and
Kirsty's a very sort of autistic profile if we
were on there and I and Kirsty thrived from the
training every single word I love the structure
of it and the way it was set out everything about
it yeah when I was excited the next day let's
do it let's do it now let's put everything that
we've just learned last night and she's like
but Abi we need to stop we need to look at that
look at that and I was like yeah well let's just
throw it out and try you're a good team first
lesson well we've not even finished the training
yet we need to make sure we're doing it correct
so there's two different people who work so well
together in that sense but it gave us an excitement
first of all like because for so long I felt
like we'd felt like we were not doing it right
we were you know like you've got all these amazing
send practitioners and people that do created
these interventions and we think so highly of
them and the outcome is like what you want yeah
you know you look when you research the outcome
is is what we were all what everyone's aiming
for but we just found we were adapting and changing
it and kind of getting criticized for it but
actually it felt abnormal not to do it the way
that yeah we felt it was right so then the excitement
straight away for the for rise um was huge because
straight away we were On the same page, we were
jumping in the box. It was pretty much already
what you were doing. It was just giving a name
to what you were doing. Yeah, and a structure.
You were already letting them come and go. You
were already getting them right into the action.
You were already doing all of those things. It
just gave you structure, name to it, a system
to call it what it was. And ideas of other things
we can add into it as well, not just sticking
to what we know. yeah yes it's changed our the
training kind of changed our mindset to that
confident thinking straight away like oh brilliant
we're doing the right thing it's it's we're getting
the correct outcome that we want but someone
actually has created this amazing intervention
that we can actually now run with and use and
we we shout about it to everyone don't we to
be honest in in schools it's probably helped
us out budget wise as well isn't it because we've
become more organized And we can plan it throughout
our week for every session. We've got so flexible,
we can adapt it to each group that we go see
in each school. So it's been really great. And
I suppose the whole idea of it is that it doesn't
need to be different every time like the other
interventions. The whole idea of it is actually
we want you to repeat. We want you to reuse the
interventions to lower anxiety. And I guess that
helps budget and planning and preparation too,
because you just need to do it maybe at the beginning
of the week and it's ready. It's incredibly flexible
as well, isn't it? You could do it to any. season
subject topic how flexible it is in terms of
for example when it was world book day we did
like huge planning do you know i mean like our
buffet was so kind of like planned around world
book day and you know we probably did spend quite
a lot in terms of us what we did for our invitation
and everything um but that's just because we
adore world book week do you know we would love
it whereas then like the week after what's it
has covered what can we do do you know what i
mean and it genuinely yeah you either plan to
to a tea and you get all these ideas or you wake
up on that morning you go what should we do for
eyes today what should we do in our eye therapy
session or just grab it from the cupboard there
and then yeah and i bet they were both just um
were they both just as successful as each other
yeah absolutely yeah and i think some you find
the ones that you've planned if there's more
pressure anywhere you know like if you've gone
and spent a fortune you really want to enjoy
yeah to work out and whereas sometimes we've
just always got a rigid plan of what it's going
to look like don't you and sometimes actually
the grab and go ideas are better because you
haven't got that preconceived idea of how that
play is going to like how it's going to go yeah
you can be a little bit more free and relaxed
and follow their lead yeah Yeah, it's definitely
what I find as well. I'm almost more in the moment
and more present and more in tune with them and
their way of play if I haven't planned it, over
-planned it. Yeah, I'm finding the same thing
as well as I'm using it. Just so people can imagine,
what kind of age groups and abilities are you
using this intervention with? Because we've seen
it being used with all sorts of different ages
and abilities. All ages. And it works. It really
works. We're based in, obviously, prime school
age. But we have children as young as three who
started intensive interactions that we've used
it for as well. And then we've got a group of
SEMH children that we have kind of for, it's
a real brain break for them. And we've done it
with them and the engagement we get from them.
So they are, they're about 10, 9, 10 years old.
The engagement we get is huge because all of
a sudden they see that we're creating something.
They come over and they want to get involved.
They want to help us set it up. And then they'll...
they'll be engaged with the full activity and
at that age as well and for their needs you can
make it quite educational you can make it around
the curriculum but then total opposite on the
day after we've got we can do the exact same
intervention and setup and same rise therapy
session and our children are reception and year
one and they are non -verbal pre -verbal gestalt
so they're completely different needs but it
works for both ages. And it's as successful for
both ages as well. Yeah, I guess because you're
led by them, it's completely errorless. So I
don't know if you're talking, if you've got soil
and plants and seeds and potatoes, one group
could be talking about roots and parts of a flower
and all of that kind of those kind of keyword
language, whilst the others are sprinkling soil
and or maybe it's edible when they're eating
it or yeah, spraying, sprinkling it, digging,
hiding things. It all looks like the same activity
from the outside, but every single individual
learner is getting something that they need from
it. Yeah, and I think that's why it works. Rather
than us saying, this is how you play with this,
this is how it goes, which does work for some
autistic learners, although it doesn't celebrate
their free way, a natural way of exploring the
world and learning. And that's what I love about
Rise. It really celebrates. each individual and
how they naturally want to explore the world
it doesn't promote masking in any way in fact
quite the opposite it really gets adults out
of their comfort zone to accept what play and
learning looks like for our learners which can
be quite confronting for some adults have you
found that sometimes when going into mainstream
schools when you're doing these kind of quite
sensory based celebratory activities have you
found that sometimes it's the adults that need
some training and learning to be comfortable
in allowing the their free sensory bodies to
explore in the way that it need they need to
yeah I think that I suppose they used to only
working in a certain way so when we're allowing
them to get messy or do things that they wouldn't
normally do they don't know whether to tell them
not to do it or allow them just to explore so
it's hard they're in between and sometimes it's
that embarrassment of being daft you know i mean
kind of just allowing yourself to be on the child's
level at that time um you know one of our little
girl she likes to flick a lot don't you kind
of a bit of a stim and um so we will do it with
her but making sure can she's doing it back into
the tree whereas kind of like they would be like
no time finish no whereas we wouldn't we would
kind of adapt it so yeah i think more the staff
don't get me wrong the staff have come and watched
and taken notes which is amazing um it's just
very hard for them to put a session in place
as such at times um or maybe think about the
ideas or kind of i think a lot of the time they're
used to working at tables with paper and pencils
it is such a different way of working yeah that
we need each other and each other's ideas to
be able to even come up with this it's like a
muscle that you need to exercise isn't it it
gets easier as you think of ideas and keep going
where do you get your ideas from they're literally
mental yeah there's just something not right
up here I think at times and we're both out with
these crazy ideas and I think we are both very
creative people but also I think social media
helps massively doesn't it kind of I mean, I
see loads of your ideas, Jordan, and I'll send
them straight to Kirsty. I'm like, we need to
try this next week. And often I'll send you a
video of us doing what you've done with our children.
Because I think there's... There's no such thing
as copying in this industry. It's all about taking
ideas from everyone else and kind of making them
your own. So I think we've had people contact
us from schools to just come and look at what
the ideas have done and things as well. But a
lot of the time, they are just random ideas that
we try with the kids or that we've seen clips
of and just try them. And when you know the children,
you know them at the end. as well like well this
is exactly what I was just about to say the better
you know the kids you're kind of just like oh
you like eating things let's do a food thing
or you like sprinkling things let's do a sprinkle
thing yeah and it kind of comes naturally doesn't
it again if you're guided by them I think that's
the point isn't it um then it's always going
to go well because that's heaven to them I know
we talk about that in level two training isn't
it making it heaven to them what is heaven for
these for these learners And I'm talking about
sensory profiles as well. I've noticed that some
of my groups need a dry and a messy sensory tray
option at the one time to allow everybody to
access. I know you work with lots of different
people all at once with lots of different needs
and profiles. Are you finding that kind of thing
as well, that you're kind of needing to please
all or are you finding different ways of adapting
the one session? How are you managing that? We've
kind of done one session. led into another at
the same time sometimes so we'll set up one certain
trail whether it's water and we'll invite them
over we did a shared experience and then we start
to invite them to another area so it kind of
all goes into one and then we would go back and
do an end and an end everything some learners
are joining one and not the other it's their
choice whether they feel ready to come or not,
which is a lovely way of monitoring it with less
adults. Because two adults, that's a lot to manage.
It's a really lovely, again, adaptation, right?
For your space, your capacity, your adult rotations
and all of those kind of things that you found
a way of being able to, you know, give everything
that everybody needs. But it's, again, because
the children can choose when to come and not,
you know that you're meeting their needs where
they're at. That's it. If we were, before when
we were doing it, if a child was over spinning
on the spinny chair, we wanted them to be involved
because we were so kind of structured that we
have to have them all involved and all here and
all doing it. We'd have been kind of, one of
us has been getting that child to come over and
kind of stopping them from going away or touching
it. And they became dysregulated. I'm sweating.
She's trying to run the session. The other kids
have now gone. They're not interested because
we've not started it quick enough. And that's
what it could look like sometimes where actually
Kirsty's sat setting it up. I'm still on the
buffet with the other children if they want to
be there. All of a sudden they've left me. They're
now with Kirsty. They're all engaged. The child
that's on the speedy chair has had a little bit
of a peek over and then slowly comes over. may
not stay, may go away again. She's regulated
and she's happy and she's looking what the other
children are doing. And I just think, honestly,
I think it's like magic sometimes. When I look
around, I'm like, this is magic. There's a group
of non -verbal children who have no interest
in each other or the things that are going on.
And they're all sat around a tough tray with
one adult. while I'm taking photos to send to
the staff as quick as I can. And it is, it's
magic. You don't understand how big that is for
children like that and for the teachers to, they
won't understand what we're seeing. Because it's
hard to get kids all sat down. It's something
we've found as well. It's really interesting.
The people that haven't done the training yet
or the people that haven't tried it yet, often
their biggest fear is, but it's going to be a
free -for -all. If there's no structure, if there's
no, like, expectation that they've all got to
be doing a certain thing at a certain time, that
we're going to lose control, that it's going
to feel chaotic. And actually, weirdly, it doesn't
make sense, but weirdly, it's quite the opposite.
You're absolutely right. Because you don't get
those triggers and dysregulation, because they
feel like... They're able to have full body autonomy
and autonomy over when they come and when they
don't. And it's all linked to their play style.
They can't fail at it. They don't have to wait.
They don't have to, you know, all of those kind
of things. We're not seeing that dysregulation.
So the learners are able to independently come
and go without it feeling chaotic because it's
calm and it's regulated, which doesn't actually
make sense. But in reality, it sounds like that's
what you're finding too. yeah it is like it is
magic it's still structured you've still got
your four stages so you know it's structured
but whatever happens in between just happens
and you just allow it because they're regulated
and they're doing what they want to do flexible
isn't it has that been the biggest impact you
think we've spoken a lot about the impact on
you guys as practitioners on your planning your
resourcing your actual running of the session
what's been the impact on the children that you're
working with in comparison to what you were doing
before Sometimes we'll use Makaton throughout
it and they've learnt new signs through it, so
the communicating, the socialising with the others,
the sitting next to children that they wouldn't
normally sit next to, just getting involved in
things that they wouldn't normally do, it's just
been huge. The sharing has become so much easier,
do you know, like sharing's obviously a huge
one for children with additional needs and it's
kind of what the teachers say in class, like
the meltdowns are from not being able to have
what they need or will. They'll say one, but
we say that's what they need at that moment in
time. But they're turn -taking, they're waiting,
they're learning to play together a little bit,
you know, and that's been huge, I think. And
sometimes they do it without even realising.
Yeah, no, it is without realising. And before,
when we were doing different interventions, we
would have never, ever got the engagement that
we get now. And the aim was always for socialising
and communication, always. And now it's already
happening within the rice therapy without even
having to do it as a separate intervention. So
communication is huge with all the words that
we're using when we're pouring. And sometimes
we'll use very little words. Sometimes we'll
tell a full story. So it just has been huge for
them simply because their engagement is massive.
And for longer, we're finding that they've been
engaged for longer. Yeah, the sessions we're
running are... 20 minutes minimum like and that's
just mad that would never have been a thing it
would have been like three minutes five minutes
six minutes max to like for them all to be engaged
and we're finding that yeah these sessions are
20 -30 minutes often and actually we're finishing
not because the learner or the majority of the
learners had enough but actually some of them
have so we're finishing to end on a positive
but some of them would carry on which for me
like it just wouldn't have happened before and
I I wonder if it is just because the learners
know that they can leave any point that then
they're choosing to stay. I don't know. I don't
know. I don't know what it is. That's why I keep
saying it's magic because I don't know what it
is. Just when I sit and watch from if I'm on
the buffing or wherever I am and one of us is
doing the invitation, setting it up, it's magic
to see all of a sudden them just come over. You
know, it's the same as when you sing a certain
song and they hear it and they come and they
want to be involved. It's the same situation.
The eyes will go, she's tipping water, we're
sprinkling oats. Once that tough tray comes out,
they want to know what's going on. Yeah, they
want to know. That's what we're finding now.
We don't even need much of an invitation. They
know that they're going to like it. As soon as
they see the tough tray, that is the invitation.
They're already in. It's just so exciting, isn't
it? Because it just, it proves to me. that they
want to be there. And consent is such a huge
thing. That's one of my biggest concerns with
what we were doing before. Are they there because
they're autistic and this is their routine? Or
are they actually wanting to be there? And I
honestly couldn't have answered that question,
honestly. I didn't know. I didn't know if it
was just because it was on their timetable, that's
what they were doing. And that's where our autistic
learners in particular are so vulnerable because
sometimes it is just their system and their routine.
And actually, they're not choosing to be there.
And in fact, it's hurting them. And we don't
know because it's not. you know seeming like
that and the more I'm talking to autistic adults
the more I'm realizing it's a huge issue that's
kind of going under the surface I just didn't
want to be part of it whereas now I know that
because there is no adult prompt or guidance
there's no visuals or often the children are
just the visual is the tough tray because they're
choosing to come on over I can feel comfortable
and I can sleep well at night knowing they're
choosing to be there they want to be there and
they can leave at any point they want to or need
to um yeah it just helps me sleep at night honestly
But I've never really looked at it like that
either, really, in terms of visuals are huge,
aren't they, everywhere? And actually... Is it
what the next step is? So then they go and do
it because that's what they're told to do. And
that's the next step. They don't have that voice
either. Most of our children say, I don't want
to do that. I don't like water. It's too messy.
That's what the dysregulation comes from, right?
That is their voice. How else are they going
to show it other than hurting behaviours, tipping
behaviours, ripping and all of those other things
that we're seeing? I mean, that's them saying,
I don't want to be here. I don't want to do this.
And we're not seeing that because they've got
autonomy. to leave when they want to to change
when they want to to regulate when they need
to and ultimately we want adults you know all
of these children are going to be adults one
day and we want them to be adults that listen
to their bodies that understand consent that
know that they can leave a situation that feels
uncomfortable for them I would hate for them
as adults to feel in a vulnerable situation not
feel like they can leave because that's the expectation
it puts our learners into incredibly vulnerable
situations so if anything that's the most important
lesson that they can learn you almost forget
communication in a way for them to be able to
listen to their bodies and leave a situation
where it doesn't feel uncomfortable is probably
one of the most important things that they will
ever learn because one day they're going to be
adults with paid for carers that might rotate
that don't really know them and they're going
to have to advocate for themselves and their
bodies and my goodness that if we can teach them
that it's only through fun sensory play that
then they don't even realize it then gosh that's
a huge legacy yeah I'd be very proud if if we
saved some autistic adults or you know disabled
adults from some very difficult situations because
they're able to advocate them for themselves
know what doesn't feel right in their body and
leave a situation yeah absolutely yeah you don't
you don't really look at it like that do you
until you've sort of it's not nice no it's not
nice to but that was the gut feeling with what
we were doing before is are we just teaching
them to mask better are we just teaching them
to comply to authority and ultimately we know
they're safe now because we're just doing fun
sensory play with them they're fine now it doesn't
matter that they're complying with it But what
does that, what is that actually teaching them
in future when they're not in a situation with
loved adults? And we definitely, we didn't feel
it was what we were doing before was right. I
could tell, I could just tell we didn't, in our
bodies, we felt like it wasn't going on in our
mind for the children. Yeah, it just didn't feel
right at all. And adapting, it did feel right.
And that's why. And it's hard when you're new
to it all in terms of, you know, work. we've
had different jobs before and we've always worked
with SEND children but we jumped into it with
two feet did all our training so you learn every
day don't you in this job so I think it was hard
for us to turn around and go I don't agree with
that it was so hard to voice that. I do think
neurodivergent adults and you mentioned about
ADHD and autism and me and Sammy are neurodivergent
as well I do think part of being neurodivergent
is to question to think outside of the box to
not necessarily follow the path and to question
and you know to yeah to think creatively about
that and I do think maybe that's where you guys
were at and I think that's what we were at as
well is wait why are we doing this thing again
almost like rebellious in a way I feel that rebellion
in me as a neurodivergent adult yeah completely
And sometimes in the workplace, it gets you in
trouble. But when you're running your own business
with these learners, it's actually such a great
asset to think in a rebellious way and to think,
wait, but why? Why are we doing that? Just because
it's been done since the 70s. If you can answer
the question why, which we found we could, that's
why we carried on. Do you know, like if someone
said, oh, you can't do it, it was like, yeah,
but they're still benefiting the way that we're
doing it. Yeah, they're safe, they're happy,
they're learning, they're thriving. I couldn't,
why can't we do that? I loved my teaching assistants
for that, my brand new ones with no training
that came in because they would be asking me
why. And it would really, sometimes I could answer
the question, but other times I couldn't. And
I liked that because other times it really got
me out of that stagnant, stuck intervention space
of just because we always have was the answer.
And it's just not good enough. And I think if
we're constantly... You know, there's a lot of
shift happening in the speech and language space
right now with high -tech AAC and total communication,
neuro -affirming language. There's a huge shift
happening. And I feel like it's because there's
all of these neurodivergent adults in this space
asking, oh. Because we've already always done
it like that. That doesn't make sense. Yeah.
Why? I wouldn't want that to be done to me. So
why? And we're questioning and asking. I think
that's a really great thing. We're listening
to autistic adults and their experiences and
we're not wanting to repeat that. And I think
that's a really, really great thing with everything,
you know, not just speech and language sessions,
which is what we're doing in sensory sessions,
which is what we're talking about today, but
everything just because something is evidence
-based doesn't necessarily mean that it's compassionate
or. right you've got to create new evidence as
to why something else works and that's kind of
where i think this is where it is we've got the
evidence here that this new intervention has
as is and there's no reason why we we need to
say this if that makes sense that we know our
well you know what we were doing before worked
so much better well it didn't and the children
are thriving in our sessions the sessions go
this fast as well so for especially because we're
heavily focused in mainstream schools which we
adore is the fact that staff sometimes struggle
to fill those sessions in terms of well I've
tried that and they weren't engaged for very
long then I tried that and they weren't engaged
for very long and that's when you see the flatness
coming from staff is that they're flat because
they feel they've failed and all week it's in
it you've not failed you've just Need to adapt,
need to change that way again. The more you do
it, the more it'll become the norm and you will
just adapt. So what kind of activities are working
really well for you? What are the most loved
activities, your grab -and -go activities? If
somebody's listening to this thinking, that's
great and I've done level one training, but I
just don't really know where to start. I know
you're doing it in your space that you've got,
in your centre that you've got, but you're also
bringing stuff into schools as well. What's working
well in all of those kind of situations? Definitely
the edible stuff. Anything edible. It's huge.
We have a ginormous blue suitcase, don't we?
It's huge. It is huge. And in there is just whatever
we find on that Monday before the week ahead,
and edible, messy, anything like that. Although
we have randomly put a tough tray of kind of
like different fidgets, new fidgets, and because
it's new and because they're sat around and they're
waiting to see what else is coming out, they're
all of a sudden regulating themselves by playing
with the fidgets that are on the tough tray.
It can be as simple as that. I mean, water's
huge in it because we've got, socks off within
seconds you've got shoes off within seconds but
you can use sponges sometimes i've had i've had
uniforms off and i'm like oh too much yeah sponges
are huge as well they adore squeezing and tipping
things with instant reactions really and some
of that they're gonna have a cause and effect
really we i don't know if you find that as well
but our our children that we work with mainly
there's the instant reaction it's huge for all
of our children if there's no instant reaction
sometimes it can take longer to engage them in
an activity so anything that would cause an instant
reaction a watering can you know things that
would happen straight away something sound based
or visual or yes yeah definitely especially just
initially and then they can find their own way
of playing with it yeah yeah definitely it's
just that initial is that initial instant reaction
and whether that's any activity we're doing and
we learn from them as well we might have it set
up a certain way and have a plan of how we're
going to do it and then they'll end up using
it And that's kind of the point, isn't it? Is
actually they do have better ideas than us. So
why aren't we listening, following their way
of play? So, yeah, so I do it so often. I would
have an idea of, oh, yeah, they're going to really
love that. And then all of a sudden they learn
that slinky is a classic one. Oh, yeah, we'll
use the slinky and we'll, I don't know, do bubbles
or whatever. And actually they just wanted to
spin it around and they were loving it and thinking,
yeah, that is more fun. You had a way better
idea. So yeah, it's all of that, isn't it? It's
following their lead. And if they're choosing
to use it that way, then it probably is more
fun. Well, we've tried it and it is more fun
when they're doing it. Yeah, I love that. That's
really great. If people are listening and wanting
to learn more about our space, then where can
they, if they're local to you, where can they
go to find out more? So we're huge on our social
media. Like we're huge. We're constantly on TikTok,
Instagram and Facebook. So just typing in our
space, we've got a website, ourspace .org. So
they can literally go onto the internet and social
media and find us so easily and message us. think
it's really important to share we don't keep
our ideas to ourselves we want them out there
and so we share as many ideas as we can all the
time we share our wins but we also share our
fails you know so anything to make it really
we just want to be quite relatable do you know
what I mean and not stood there with a clipboard
and this is how you should do it we want you
to be able to come on that's not reality is it
no and we want you to be able to come on our
social media and actually think i had a rubbish
day today and have a little look and think right
i've got a bit of excitement again for tomorrow
now that's what that's what we try and bring
in our cpd and things is the excitement to the
team again a lot of the stuff you already know
you know it you know what you're doing it's confirmation
it's excitement and it's building the the excitement
for these children again because a lot of the
time they become very flat oh it's just not worked
we can't do it so i think our socials definitely
do that so that's where you'd find even if you're
not local to them you can benefit from following
our space on social media for sure and then local
schools and and parents yes to west Yeah, West
York. So yeah, we're in Bradford area. And I
mean, won't mean anything to you, but we're based
at Bradford Bulls, which anyone's watching that
lives in Bradford will know Bradford Bulls. So
we're based there. The local schools around there.
The aim is, of course, to go further afield and
to be supporting as many family and schools as
possible, really, with what time we've got. as
well so yeah that's that's the aim and as well
to get more of us in the schools and them to
be doing exactly what we're doing like we've
said before it's you are so far from us but someone
somewhere in between that's speaking the same
as we do and would be just amazing wouldn't it
Absolutely, because we all need our space. We
all do. Amazing. Thank you so much, ladies, for
sharing so openly and honestly about your journey
in learning. And we're all continuing to learn,
aren't we, and improve. And I love that we can
collaborate and work together in this way. Like
you said beautifully, social media is about sharing
and collaboration and we're stronger together.
And that's what this podcast is about. the social
media is about and we can all be sharing ideas
because ultimately we all just want the best
for these learners yeah and that's what it's
all about if you want to find out more about
rice therapy then i'll leave the links down to
that below as well as well as i'll leave the
our space website as well thank you bo thank
you