WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.680 Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education 00:00:02.680 --> 00:00:06.160 teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:09.119 communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson 00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:11.660 ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged 00:00:11.660 --> 00:00:15.300 4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in 00:00:15.300 --> 00:00:17.640 the field answering your questions and sharing 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:19.559 our knowledge and experience working alongside 00:00:19.559 --> 00:00:22.539 our beautiful young people. Let's get started. 00:00:30.190 --> 00:00:33.149 Hello everybody and welcome to the Sensory Classroom 00:00:33.149 --> 00:00:36.229 podcast. My name is Jordan and today I am joined 00:00:36.229 --> 00:00:39.909 by Katie of at neurodivergent underscore therapist 00:00:39.909 --> 00:00:43.570 underscore UK. She is a parent and psychotherapist. 00:00:43.630 --> 00:00:47.009 Katie is an autistic and ADHD psychotherapist, 00:00:47.009 --> 00:00:49.469 parent and founder of the neurodivergent therapy 00:00:49.469 --> 00:00:54.549 space. Hi Katie. Hi. Are you first of all alright 00:00:54.549 --> 00:00:56.869 to introduce yourself a little bit about you 00:00:56.869 --> 00:01:01.100 and the work you do? Yes. So, yeah, I am Katie, 00:01:01.240 --> 00:01:03.679 which you just introduced me as. I trained as 00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:05.879 a therapist probably about four or five years 00:01:05.879 --> 00:01:08.599 ago now as a kind of traditional therapist. And 00:01:08.599 --> 00:01:11.319 amongst whilst I was training as a therapist, 00:01:11.420 --> 00:01:13.879 I realised I was autistic and ADHD and kind of 00:01:13.879 --> 00:01:16.000 traditional therapy just wasn't working for me. 00:01:16.019 --> 00:01:18.420 It was causing me a lot more harm. So I went 00:01:18.420 --> 00:01:22.439 down the route of creating a space that is neuroaffirming 00:01:22.439 --> 00:01:28.469 and works. for autistic and ADHD people by autistic 00:01:28.469 --> 00:01:30.390 and ADHD people because I think that's really 00:01:30.390 --> 00:01:33.469 important. Amazing. So all of your work now, 00:01:33.549 --> 00:01:36.790 is it more focused on supporting neurodivergence 00:01:36.790 --> 00:01:38.769 by neurodivergence and that's the idea of it? 00:01:38.769 --> 00:01:42.349 Yes. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Just kind of a space 00:01:42.349 --> 00:01:44.450 where someone doesn't have to come in and explain 00:01:44.450 --> 00:01:49.030 or try and convince someone why their brain is 00:01:49.030 --> 00:01:51.230 working the way they are because I think in a 00:01:51.230 --> 00:01:54.599 lot of traditional therapy, therapists can assume 00:01:54.599 --> 00:01:57.439 everything is rooted to trauma when actually 00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:00.280 it might be just because you need to fidget with 00:02:00.280 --> 00:02:01.879 something because it makes you comfortable, not 00:02:01.879 --> 00:02:03.719 because you're in distress. Do you see what I 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:08.120 mean? It's kind of flipping the perception that 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:11.900 we have around body language and behaviour and 00:02:11.900 --> 00:02:16.659 emotions. I've also noticed in therapy myself 00:02:16.659 --> 00:02:21.400 with I end up like trying to work out what they 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:23.879 want me to do. to say like it ends up like sometimes 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:27.539 a million absolutely and I leave thinking I did 00:02:27.539 --> 00:02:29.800 all of that for them to make them feel like a 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:32.120 good therapist yeah not me at all is that kind 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:34.419 of is that all the experience yes absolutely 00:02:34.419 --> 00:02:37.939 because if you've gone your whole life feeling 00:02:37.939 --> 00:02:39.979 like there's something wrong with you or you're 00:02:39.979 --> 00:02:41.560 not quite doing things the way other people are 00:02:41.560 --> 00:02:43.400 doing things and then you go to therapy and you 00:02:43.400 --> 00:02:46.099 suddenly sat in front of a professional and they're 00:02:46.099 --> 00:02:48.919 they're kind of sat there waiting for you to 00:02:48.919 --> 00:02:50.819 talk and then you go into this pattern you're 00:02:50.819 --> 00:02:52.300 going to fight or flight and you're going to 00:02:52.300 --> 00:02:53.960 oh my goodness what do they want me to say what 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:55.699 do I what do I do what do I need to get this 00:02:55.699 --> 00:02:58.159 right and it's then it exacerbates all of the 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:00.419 feelings you are already having so it doesn't 00:03:00.419 --> 00:03:04.099 work in the end you know so it's yeah so you 00:03:04.099 --> 00:03:07.900 mentioned trauma you mentioned that they just 00:03:07.900 --> 00:03:10.580 assume everything you're doing is leading from 00:03:10.580 --> 00:03:13.139 trauma but then I suppose there's a lot of trauma 00:03:13.139 --> 00:03:17.210 in being night version and growing up neurodivergent 00:03:17.210 --> 00:03:21.530 um not because being over divergent causes trauma 00:03:21.530 --> 00:03:24.689 in itself but it's like yeah are you right explaining 00:03:24.689 --> 00:03:27.090 a little bit about one what trauma is and then 00:03:27.090 --> 00:03:30.770 also why it would manifest itself in these neurodivergent 00:03:30.770 --> 00:03:35.110 brains yeah Yeah, yeah. So trauma is something 00:03:35.110 --> 00:03:38.069 that happens that leaves an imprint in your body. 00:03:38.189 --> 00:03:41.110 And how I describe it is if you imagine a nervous 00:03:41.110 --> 00:03:43.469 system is like a wire loop that goes all the 00:03:43.469 --> 00:03:45.509 way around your body. Every time you experience 00:03:45.509 --> 00:03:47.969 a trauma, it leaves a kink in your nervous system. 00:03:48.590 --> 00:03:52.310 So every time you come across something that 00:03:52.310 --> 00:03:55.289 your body feels is similar to that trauma, it 00:03:55.289 --> 00:03:59.240 gets stuck on the kink and it can't move. past 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:03.139 it so the idea for therapy is to iron out that 00:04:03.139 --> 00:04:05.620 trauma and it will always be there you will always 00:04:05.620 --> 00:04:07.840 feel it but it won't be as intense and it won't 00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:12.759 get stuck um and why a lot of neurodivergent 00:04:12.759 --> 00:04:15.740 people experience so much trauma is because society 00:04:15.740 --> 00:04:18.959 conditions us to be a certain way and because 00:04:18.959 --> 00:04:22.060 we can't fit that mold that society has given 00:04:22.060 --> 00:04:25.670 us And it causes us quite extreme distress, you 00:04:25.670 --> 00:04:28.209 know, like trying to fit into a typical classroom 00:04:28.209 --> 00:04:30.810 environment can cause extreme distress for children. 00:04:30.970 --> 00:04:33.389 Trying to fit into a typical work environment 00:04:33.389 --> 00:04:35.410 can cause extreme distress for adults. All of 00:04:35.410 --> 00:04:39.610 these things kind of just layer up. You end up 00:04:39.610 --> 00:04:41.990 with so many kinks in your nervous system. Do 00:04:41.990 --> 00:04:44.529 you see what I mean? And so that's what, and 00:04:44.529 --> 00:04:47.430 then obviously the more trauma you have, it just 00:04:47.430 --> 00:04:50.730 layers on top. And that's why we experience, 00:04:50.870 --> 00:04:54.329 and also not to mention kind of all of the sensory 00:04:54.329 --> 00:04:56.970 overwhelm that we might experience in everyday 00:04:56.970 --> 00:05:00.189 life. It makes sense that we do naturally experience 00:05:00.189 --> 00:05:04.750 a lot of trauma throughout our life. Yeah, and 00:05:04.750 --> 00:05:08.769 sometimes the term trauma... people might hear 00:05:08.769 --> 00:05:10.829 that and think well I haven't experienced that 00:05:10.829 --> 00:05:13.129 because nothing extreme has happened but I guess 00:05:13.129 --> 00:05:15.990 absolutely it can be the little and often everyday 00:05:15.990 --> 00:05:19.129 stuff that builds up yeah yeah yeah yeah and 00:05:19.129 --> 00:05:22.370 also how this is another thing with kind of therapy 00:05:22.370 --> 00:05:25.949 and how we perceive trauma a lot of us can think 00:05:25.949 --> 00:05:28.589 trauma has to be massive and that's the thing 00:05:28.589 --> 00:05:30.670 that's going to impact us and if it's not massive 00:05:30.670 --> 00:05:32.970 then it's not really trauma but actually it is 00:05:32.970 --> 00:05:35.560 and what I might experience as trauma might not 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:37.879 be what you experience as trauma and vice versa 00:05:37.879 --> 00:05:40.439 and so it's not coming out from this one size 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:43.259 fits all approach it's kind of actually what 00:05:43.259 --> 00:05:45.939 what has happened to you and what does that trauma 00:05:45.939 --> 00:05:48.800 feel like for you do you see what I mean and 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:50.480 then talking about your analogy with the kinks 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:53.199 as well that's such a lovely visual way of understanding 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:56.920 it is it that when you experience things aligned 00:05:56.920 --> 00:05:59.600 with that trauma even if it's not necessarily 00:06:00.189 --> 00:06:03.550 traumatic in itself, if it's just aligned or 00:06:03.550 --> 00:06:06.449 similar to in any way of its feeling, that could 00:06:06.449 --> 00:06:11.879 also feel like trauma. Yeah, yeah. So if, for 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:14.579 example, I always like to think our bodies have 00:06:14.579 --> 00:06:17.180 got like an alarm system within us and that's 00:06:17.180 --> 00:06:19.199 our nervous system going, no, this is dangerous. 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:22.639 So if you, I don't know, say you experience some 00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:25.680 abandonment trauma as a child and you then enter 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:28.959 a relationship as an adult and in that relationship, 00:06:29.220 --> 00:06:32.839 I don't know, that person does something. It's 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:34.800 not abandoning you in any way, shape or form, 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:37.079 but your nervous system goes, oh, we've been 00:06:37.079 --> 00:06:39.899 here before. Get out. This is not safe. The alarm 00:06:39.899 --> 00:06:43.279 bells start ringing. And that's the kink in the 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:45.480 nervous system. That's the kind of block that 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:47.560 you hit. So you might find that you might want 00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:49.620 to run away from that relationship or you might 00:06:49.620 --> 00:06:51.959 find that you become an extra sort of clingy 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:53.899 in that relationship and you don't feel safe 00:06:53.899 --> 00:06:56.680 or comfortable leaving that partner. That's how 00:06:56.680 --> 00:06:59.180 trauma plays out in the here and now when it's 00:06:59.180 --> 00:07:02.660 from the past. if that makes sense and it's something 00:07:02.660 --> 00:07:06.420 that i see in my learners it's something that 00:07:06.420 --> 00:07:10.220 i see in my support staff um yeah that's very 00:07:10.220 --> 00:07:12.839 interesting immediately i was thinking of the 00:07:12.839 --> 00:07:15.279 children that come to my specialist provision 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:19.920 from mainstream and they see a chair a table 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:24.139 they see visuals they see work on paper and you 00:07:24.139 --> 00:07:28.360 can way is so triggering for them yeah even though 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:31.899 maybe what we're offering is accessible is errorless 00:07:31.899 --> 00:07:35.639 is yeah maybe something they enjoy but just seeing 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:38.480 that feeling that you can see what they've been 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:42.060 through before yeah manifests itself inside a 00:07:42.060 --> 00:07:45.750 classroom maybe Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if 00:07:45.750 --> 00:07:50.009 you imagine a child going into a classroom who's 00:07:50.009 --> 00:07:52.610 been kind of maybe experienced quite a bit of 00:07:52.610 --> 00:07:55.189 trauma in a classroom. Schools are big and schools 00:07:55.189 --> 00:07:58.870 are really quite traumatic for a lot of neurodivergent. 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:02.279 um children that is all that trauma's already 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:04.819 imprinted that kink's already there so like you 00:08:04.819 --> 00:08:06.879 say if they're coming into you and maybe you've 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:09.019 got a table that reflects a similar table to 00:08:09.019 --> 00:08:11.399 what they had in a previous classroom they're 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:13.139 going to hit that kink in the nervous system 00:08:13.139 --> 00:08:15.180 straight away their alarm bells are going off 00:08:15.180 --> 00:08:19.399 going nope this isn't safe and and and then it's 00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:21.540 kind of like okay how do we regulate how do we 00:08:21.540 --> 00:08:24.100 work in this space and make it less traumatic 00:08:24.100 --> 00:08:27.879 for this child I did see somebody, an autistic 00:08:27.879 --> 00:08:30.480 adult, say yesterday, if we were to design an 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:32.899 environment that was literally the worst environment 00:08:32.899 --> 00:08:35.899 for, and traumatic environment for, a neurodivergent 00:08:35.899 --> 00:08:38.379 person, it would look like a school. It would 00:08:38.379 --> 00:08:40.919 look echoing. 100%. There would be lots of people. 00:08:40.940 --> 00:08:42.779 There would be bright lights. There would be 00:08:42.779 --> 00:08:45.500 no demands. They would be, you know, you have 00:08:45.500 --> 00:08:47.500 to sit still and be quiet. And all of those things 00:08:47.500 --> 00:08:50.879 are like, this is natural hell. So what are we 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:54.149 doing? I know, it's so frustrating, isn't it? 00:08:54.169 --> 00:08:56.230 And I don't know any adult who hasn't experienced 00:08:56.230 --> 00:08:58.409 trauma in school and we're still doing the same 00:08:58.409 --> 00:09:01.629 way. It's just like, yeah, it's bizarre. So I 00:09:01.629 --> 00:09:04.029 suppose let's go into that. What kind of trauma 00:09:04.029 --> 00:09:06.049 can happen at school? And I suppose by understanding 00:09:06.049 --> 00:09:11.450 that, we can kind of then talk about what do 00:09:11.450 --> 00:09:14.370 we do instead or how do we support them in that? 00:09:14.429 --> 00:09:18.190 So what kind of trauma would you see, would a 00:09:18.190 --> 00:09:21.240 learner experience in school? So, I mean, I guess 00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:23.519 there's kind of your everyday trauma in a school. 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:26.120 Schools are big, they're bright lights. It's 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:29.179 a very loud environment. It's very unsettling. 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:31.100 There's a lot of change. There's a lot of demands. 00:09:31.220 --> 00:09:32.879 Like you say, you have to sit a certain way. 00:09:33.059 --> 00:09:35.320 Quite often, we're still, I mean, it's been a 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:36.779 few years since I worked in a school, but when 00:09:36.779 --> 00:09:38.519 I did work in a school, we're still, we were 00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:40.639 still very much teaching them, sit up straight, 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:42.840 fold your arms, get your listening ears on, you 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:45.110 know, all of... all of these traditional things 00:09:45.110 --> 00:09:48.889 that is quite terrifying. And a child is leaving 00:09:48.889 --> 00:09:51.789 their safe space, usually their safe space, which 00:09:51.789 --> 00:09:53.970 is home, not always, but usually their safe space, 00:09:53.990 --> 00:09:56.570 which is home, with their safe adults. And they're 00:09:56.570 --> 00:09:59.620 going into such an unfamiliar environment. And 00:09:59.620 --> 00:10:01.480 I don't know about you, but for me, when I was 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:04.220 in studying, I went to the same building as an 00:10:04.220 --> 00:10:07.240 adult, same building every single week to do 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:09.299 my course. And every single week that caused 00:10:09.299 --> 00:10:11.659 me a huge amount of anxiety. So imagine being 00:10:11.659 --> 00:10:13.940 little and not understanding what's going on 00:10:13.940 --> 00:10:16.899 in your body and then going into a school and 00:10:16.899 --> 00:10:20.039 having to deal with that. And then obviously. 00:10:20.809 --> 00:10:22.669 You've got your peers. You don't know if you 00:10:22.669 --> 00:10:25.049 get on with your peers. So there could be a lot 00:10:25.049 --> 00:10:26.970 of bullying going on. Then you've got teachers 00:10:26.970 --> 00:10:29.269 and perhaps teachers are maybe not trauma informed. 00:10:29.409 --> 00:10:31.870 Perhaps the teachers haven't done some self work. 00:10:31.950 --> 00:10:34.950 And so they might be nitpicking at certain things. 00:10:35.009 --> 00:10:37.110 Perhaps they're coming from a traditional angle 00:10:37.110 --> 00:10:39.830 of you're the child, I'm the teacher. Listen 00:10:39.830 --> 00:10:42.490 and do as I say. All of that is like for six 00:10:42.490 --> 00:10:44.909 hours a day is a lot. And special education classrooms 00:10:44.909 --> 00:10:48.879 are not. alone like are not apart from that either 00:10:48.879 --> 00:10:51.039 you know they might we might not be nitpicking 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:53.759 and they might not be bullying necessarily however 00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:56.620 because you're getting so many different sensory 00:10:56.620 --> 00:10:59.720 profiles all in one room yeah yeah it's so often 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:02.139 a domino effect there's children that are really 00:11:02.139 --> 00:11:04.379 noise avoidant there are children that are noise 00:11:04.379 --> 00:11:05.899 seeking there are children that are movement 00:11:05.899 --> 00:11:09.840 avoidant yeah yeah yeah constantly finding that 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:12.100 kind of still feeling of bullying although it's 00:11:12.100 --> 00:11:15.779 not intentional happens constantly if they're 00:11:15.779 --> 00:11:18.340 being triggered so almost the worst place for 00:11:18.340 --> 00:11:21.519 an autistic learner to be is so often the loudest 00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:24.179 classroom and that's where they are so that can 00:11:24.179 --> 00:11:27.299 be really hard to navigate as a special education 00:11:27.299 --> 00:11:29.940 teacher too is you're trying to make the perfect 00:11:29.940 --> 00:11:32.320 environment for each of your learners and yet 00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:38.019 the learners themselves it's really hard to navigate 00:11:38.019 --> 00:11:42.029 that and I can see why it's very traumatic Yeah. 00:11:42.169 --> 00:11:44.450 And also what you're describing there is if you 00:11:44.450 --> 00:11:46.669 imagine a neurodivergent family where you've 00:11:46.669 --> 00:11:49.009 got multiple neurodivergents in the house and 00:11:49.009 --> 00:11:50.909 you're trying to accommodate everyone's needs, 00:11:50.990 --> 00:11:53.169 you've got it on a much bigger scale because 00:11:53.169 --> 00:11:55.629 you've got all of these children that are neurodivergent 00:11:55.629 --> 00:11:57.509 and you're trying to cater for all of their needs 00:11:57.509 --> 00:12:00.129 and your own needs as well. So it's, yeah, I 00:12:00.129 --> 00:12:02.029 can imagine that it's really, really hard. Yeah, 00:12:02.090 --> 00:12:05.710 it feels overwhelming often. Like I had a comment 00:12:05.710 --> 00:12:08.529 on one of my posts yesterday saying, how do we 00:12:08.529 --> 00:12:11.850 not feel overwhelmed? like absolutely i couldn't 00:12:11.850 --> 00:12:14.169 answer it because it is an incredibly overwhelming 00:12:14.169 --> 00:12:18.330 environment yeah yeah yeah whether you're neurodivergent 00:12:18.330 --> 00:12:21.669 or not as a lead but certainly i find that it 00:12:21.669 --> 00:12:24.730 can be overstimulating and overwhelming trying 00:12:24.730 --> 00:12:28.110 to navigate all of that yeah and just trying 00:12:28.110 --> 00:12:30.850 to support them as best as possible it it feels 00:12:30.850 --> 00:12:33.289 like an impossible job sometimes i've got the 00:12:33.289 --> 00:12:36.669 privilege of having a huge Classroom with lots 00:12:36.669 --> 00:12:38.750 of different rooms. So that's kind of how we 00:12:38.750 --> 00:12:40.669 navigate it. I know lots of teachers don't have 00:12:40.669 --> 00:12:43.889 that luxury. They have one big room with everybody 00:12:43.889 --> 00:12:47.710 in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And also underfunding 00:12:47.710 --> 00:12:50.450 and not having enough staff to be able to look 00:12:50.450 --> 00:12:53.009 after and help out in the classroom to kind of 00:12:53.009 --> 00:12:56.129 help everyone, support everyone. Absolutely. 00:12:56.629 --> 00:13:00.629 What could the long term effect be on these experiences 00:13:00.629 --> 00:13:03.450 through life then as we look at our learners 00:13:03.450 --> 00:13:06.419 going into adulthood? what does that entail? 00:13:07.019 --> 00:13:10.779 The long -term effect is obviously if you, so 00:13:10.779 --> 00:13:13.700 trauma stays in the body and when we experience 00:13:13.700 --> 00:13:16.059 complex trauma, which is like multi -layered 00:13:16.059 --> 00:13:18.480 trauma, you're putting strain on your nervous 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:20.200 system. Your nervous system is supposed to be 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:22.720 kind of neutral most of the time and it's only 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:26.059 supposed to spike when there's danger. If we're 00:13:26.059 --> 00:13:29.019 constantly in this spike, our bodies just don't 00:13:29.019 --> 00:13:31.720 have the resources to keep up with that. So by 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:34.159 the time we get to adulthood, adulthood and it's 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:36.840 why we have so many adults now in burnout because 00:13:36.840 --> 00:13:40.700 we've gone so long trying to cope and survive 00:13:40.700 --> 00:13:44.759 in survival mode up here our bodies are giving 00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:47.440 up they're going i can't cannot sustain this 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:49.419 anymore you're gonna have to you're gonna have 00:13:49.419 --> 00:13:51.659 to rest because i can't cope do you see what 00:13:51.659 --> 00:13:54.740 i mean so burnout and and a lot of chronic health 00:13:54.740 --> 00:13:57.179 conditions there's a lot of research now about 00:13:58.009 --> 00:14:00.370 the implications of trauma on the body over a 00:14:00.370 --> 00:14:02.909 long sustained period of time and how that affects 00:14:02.909 --> 00:14:06.370 our physical health so it comes out in some way 00:14:06.370 --> 00:14:09.730 if you're masking and holding it all in it's 00:14:09.730 --> 00:14:11.549 going to come out in a physical way that's so 00:14:11.549 --> 00:14:15.190 absolutely yeah yeah yeah burnout i've heard 00:14:15.190 --> 00:14:18.730 the term adhd burnout autism burnout what does 00:14:18.730 --> 00:14:22.570 that look like for adults you know how how do 00:14:22.570 --> 00:14:24.889 you know if you're burnt out or just tired from 00:14:24.889 --> 00:14:27.960 a busy day what's the difference yeah so Tired 00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:30.740 from a busy day, you would recover after a good 00:14:30.740 --> 00:14:33.559 night's sleep and a bit of self -care. Burnout 00:14:33.559 --> 00:14:37.059 is usually a prolonged state. And I always say 00:14:37.059 --> 00:14:39.899 there's a lot of content out there about the 00:14:39.899 --> 00:14:42.279 big signs of burnout. So, I don't know, you can't 00:14:42.279 --> 00:14:45.259 go to social events, you need a lot of time to 00:14:45.259 --> 00:14:47.340 rest, you can't engage in things. But the real 00:14:47.340 --> 00:14:50.669 subtle signs of burnout might be that... you're 00:14:50.669 --> 00:14:52.710 dreading going to a meeting and it might only 00:14:52.710 --> 00:14:55.730 be an hour's meeting. You're getting stuck kind 00:14:55.730 --> 00:14:57.830 of doom scrolling on your phone. You can't make 00:14:57.830 --> 00:15:00.690 any decisions, even just, it could be the most 00:15:00.690 --> 00:15:04.509 simple decision, like what top do I wear? You 00:15:04.509 --> 00:15:08.730 have no capacity to figure that out. And so it's 00:15:08.730 --> 00:15:12.809 looking at those little signs that actually you 00:15:12.809 --> 00:15:15.889 could be in burnout, feeling quite irritable 00:15:15.889 --> 00:15:18.990 with. people that you love not having capacity 00:15:18.990 --> 00:15:21.549 to communicate with them is another big big kind 00:15:21.549 --> 00:15:24.509 of indicator that actually you might be in burnout 00:15:24.509 --> 00:15:28.539 but also burnout and chronic health can can look 00:15:28.539 --> 00:15:31.299 very similar so you might might suddenly have 00:15:31.299 --> 00:15:34.100 gone from being very active on a regular basis 00:15:34.100 --> 00:15:37.159 to you physically have absolutely no energy you're 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:40.419 in pain you you have to rest because you have 00:15:40.419 --> 00:15:42.799 you otherwise you're in pain there's there's 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:45.580 quite a lot of layers and it's um quite subjective 00:15:45.580 --> 00:15:48.879 to everybody but there's some key kind of indicators 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:51.220 that would suggest you're in burnout not just 00:15:51.220 --> 00:15:54.720 tired what's happening on a brain level there 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:58.039 is it protection is it so that you don't hurt 00:15:58.039 --> 00:16:00.580 yourself more or is it your brain forcing you 00:16:00.580 --> 00:16:02.440 to try and rest what what is happening there 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:06.700 I think well kind of like how I described earlier 00:16:06.700 --> 00:16:10.190 when we're in this spike this kind of the alarms 00:16:10.190 --> 00:16:13.509 going off 24 7 in your nervous system your nervous 00:16:13.509 --> 00:16:16.230 system that your alarm is like the protector 00:16:16.230 --> 00:16:18.730 like hello listen to me we need to we need to 00:16:18.730 --> 00:16:21.250 stop when we when we're not able to listen to 00:16:21.250 --> 00:16:23.870 that alarm and we've hit burnout then you're 00:16:23.870 --> 00:16:26.110 essentially your body's going have nothing left 00:16:26.110 --> 00:16:29.269 i can't do anything for you you know you have 00:16:29.269 --> 00:16:31.690 to rest i can't give you any more do you know 00:16:31.690 --> 00:16:33.649 what i mean it's like if you imagine a battery 00:16:33.649 --> 00:16:35.629 on your phone it's dead it's completely dead 00:16:36.620 --> 00:16:38.840 And sometimes it can take months and years to 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:41.179 come out of burnout. So it's not like a couple 00:16:41.179 --> 00:16:43.480 of days rest is going to work. You know, you're 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:47.200 going to have to take a considerable amount of 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:49.860 time to recover from that burnout and get back 00:16:49.860 --> 00:16:53.620 to kind of a base level of energy. Is it possible 00:16:53.620 --> 00:16:56.000 to come out of burnout without making significant 00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:58.860 changes in your life? I've seen it before where 00:16:58.860 --> 00:17:02.559 colleagues have taken months off, you know, really 00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:06.180 sick. just cannot complete burnout they cannot 00:17:06.180 --> 00:17:09.400 come in and then they start to feel better they 00:17:09.400 --> 00:17:11.359 start to feel like they've got a hand on the 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:14.220 world they start to feel like they're inside 00:17:14.220 --> 00:17:16.119 their own bodies and then they come back to work 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:18.420 and they are immediately hit with it again because 00:17:18.420 --> 00:17:22.140 actually nothing's changed yeah yeah they're 00:17:22.140 --> 00:17:24.019 so they're going back into that trauma response 00:17:24.019 --> 00:17:26.759 that stress response again is it possible or 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:28.799 do you is the idea that actually you have to 00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:34.059 make life changes in order to long term is it 00:17:34.059 --> 00:17:37.440 yeah I would say I don't want to say yes definitely 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:39.740 that is the answer but but I would definitely 00:17:39.740 --> 00:17:41.940 say you would no no I'm not I wouldn't definitely 00:17:41.940 --> 00:17:44.240 say I would imagine you would have to make some 00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:48.720 life changes for most people to be able to live 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:51.740 because it's a bit like once you see something 00:17:51.740 --> 00:17:54.410 you can't unsee it And it's the same with our 00:17:54.410 --> 00:17:57.230 body. Once we see, oh my goodness, this thing 00:17:57.230 --> 00:17:59.930 that I've masked my whole life has actually led 00:17:59.930 --> 00:18:02.869 me to be in burnout. You can't unsee that anymore 00:18:02.869 --> 00:18:05.450 and you can't close the curtains on that anymore. 00:18:05.990 --> 00:18:08.990 Your body sees it and your body knows it. So 00:18:08.990 --> 00:18:13.190 you kind of have to listen to it and adapt to, 00:18:13.309 --> 00:18:16.390 which is a privilege. If you can adapt your lifestyle 00:18:16.390 --> 00:18:21.410 to... reduce and come out of burnout that is 00:18:21.410 --> 00:18:24.450 a privilege not everyone can do that and so it's 00:18:24.450 --> 00:18:26.410 acknowledging that as well so then it's like 00:18:26.410 --> 00:18:28.789 okay I've got young kids I can't take a month 00:18:28.789 --> 00:18:31.170 off them how do I navigate this what things can 00:18:31.170 --> 00:18:33.890 I put in place to change my lifestyle as best 00:18:33.890 --> 00:18:36.630 as I can what kind of advice would you be giving 00:18:36.630 --> 00:18:39.769 somebody that you were working with that couldn't 00:18:39.769 --> 00:18:42.089 make those life changes like you say they are 00:18:42.089 --> 00:18:45.589 in a secure job that they can't afford to get 00:18:45.589 --> 00:18:48.930 out of they are in a relationship you know, that 00:18:48.930 --> 00:18:52.609 they need, they have like children and those 00:18:52.609 --> 00:18:55.170 kind of things, they can't move out of the city. 00:18:55.269 --> 00:18:57.910 Like it isn't practical to make those changes. 00:18:58.549 --> 00:19:01.930 What can they do practically to support themselves 00:19:01.930 --> 00:19:06.539 to navigate life that way? So I would be... helping 00:19:06.539 --> 00:19:08.859 someone to look at their nervous system as like 00:19:08.859 --> 00:19:12.200 a whole and how and your nervous system is currently 00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:14.799 up here and there's nothing there's not a lot 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:18.259 you can do to change these external factors to 00:19:18.259 --> 00:19:21.559 bring it down from there permanently we can't 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:24.319 do permanently but for the majority of time so 00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:28.380 what things can we implement or take out that 00:19:28.380 --> 00:19:31.019 means we can reduce that spike multiple times 00:19:31.019 --> 00:19:35.230 a day For example, for me, gardening is something 00:19:35.230 --> 00:19:37.869 where I completely switch off from the outside 00:19:37.869 --> 00:19:40.349 world. I can really just connect to what I'm 00:19:40.349 --> 00:19:43.450 doing in the garden, what I'm creating. And that 00:19:43.450 --> 00:19:45.190 brings my nervous system right down because I'm 00:19:45.190 --> 00:19:47.990 not in my head ruminating. I'm not out in the 00:19:47.990 --> 00:19:51.970 stress. So it's looking at what, for me, can 00:19:51.970 --> 00:19:55.150 regulate me and bring my nervous system down 00:19:55.150 --> 00:19:57.730 for as many times a day, even if it's not for 00:19:57.730 --> 00:20:01.140 long. But if I can do 10 minutes every couple 00:20:01.140 --> 00:20:04.220 of hours, then we can just start to bring our 00:20:04.220 --> 00:20:06.640 nervous system down regularly. I guess because 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:09.019 when it spikes, it's harder to come down from 00:20:09.019 --> 00:20:12.720 that. Yeah, yeah. Almost like creating our own 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:16.059 sensory diet for ourselves. Yeah, yeah. And I 00:20:16.059 --> 00:20:19.519 guess the more you do that, the more you become 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:23.079 aware of when you need it. And so, yes, you might 00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:25.180 not. You might be running around all day with 00:20:25.180 --> 00:20:28.160 the kids and trying to care for your kids who 00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:30.880 have sensory needs. But if you can take five, 00:20:31.099 --> 00:20:33.720 ten minutes putting some headphones in, bringing 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:38.119 your nervous system back down. You're rewiring 00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:42.059 your brain, if you like, in a way. The other 00:20:42.059 --> 00:20:43.740 way I like to describe it is if you've got muscle, 00:20:43.859 --> 00:20:46.200 you've got a pair of biceps, if you're constantly 00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:50.240 flexing this muscle, that is to go, go, go, got 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:52.579 to do this, got to do that, be on high alert, 00:20:52.740 --> 00:20:56.579 this is really strong. So we need to flex this 00:20:56.579 --> 00:20:59.779 muscle that says, okay, recognize we need to 00:20:59.779 --> 00:21:02.039 take time out. And even if it's just for a few 00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:04.200 minutes, we need to take time out. And eventually 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:07.099 this muscle gets stronger, takes a long time, 00:21:07.140 --> 00:21:09.960 but then you can recognize the signs before it 00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:12.519 happens. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, it's a 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:14.920 muscle you've got to exercise. Yeah, I can feel 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:16.279 that. I can certainly feel that. It's something 00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:18.339 that gets easier over time that might feel like 00:21:18.339 --> 00:21:20.740 a real chore at first. You might have to really 00:21:20.740 --> 00:21:24.000 remember to do it, really like consciously do 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:26.259 it. And then maybe it becomes more unconscious, 00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:29.759 subconscious. Yes. The more you do it, it becomes 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:32.819 more second nature. Engrained. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 00:21:33.460 --> 00:21:36.779 Something I noticed that diagnosis gave me actually. 00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:42.980 was grace on myself so to all of a sudden I let 00:21:42.980 --> 00:21:48.960 go just trying to be and it gave it grace to 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.599 myself but it also gave me a term and a justification 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:55.880 to others to help others understand me and how 00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:59.700 my work so I found that diagnosis even on on 00:21:59.700 --> 00:22:03.420 of its own supported the burnout because I could 00:22:03.420 --> 00:22:07.369 explain to others why i found something difficult 00:22:07.369 --> 00:22:11.230 or impossible rather than always putting on myself 00:22:11.230 --> 00:22:14.630 of i should i i should do this yeah but actually 00:22:14.630 --> 00:22:18.809 the diagnosis made it just explained why i would 00:22:18.809 --> 00:22:21.490 find that more difficult than somebody yeah next 00:22:21.490 --> 00:22:26.170 to me um and i found that at work and at home 00:22:26.170 --> 00:22:29.950 in my family just that understanding that grace 00:22:31.089 --> 00:22:33.410 too that things might take longer that things 00:22:33.410 --> 00:22:35.650 might feel more of a challenge that actually 00:22:35.650 --> 00:22:38.329 I can say no to certain things that don't feel 00:22:38.329 --> 00:22:41.049 safe for me even though it might make no actual 00:22:41.049 --> 00:22:44.730 sense you know it's not actually unsafe but it 00:22:44.730 --> 00:22:47.009 feels unsafe for me all of those things all of 00:22:47.009 --> 00:22:49.809 a sudden became easier and then it made relationships 00:22:49.809 --> 00:22:53.319 feel easier or more relaxed so then i actually 00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:55.319 could do some of those things that i couldn't 00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:57.960 do before i mean i am a huge advocate of diagnosis 00:22:57.960 --> 00:22:59.839 which is a huge privilege as well it takes a 00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:04.859 hell of a lot of time and um expertise and capacity 00:23:04.859 --> 00:23:08.140 to go through that process but that's certainly 00:23:08.140 --> 00:23:10.619 something that's helped me i don't know if that's 00:23:10.619 --> 00:23:14.140 common on yeah Yeah. And it sounds like what 00:23:14.140 --> 00:23:16.859 you experienced there was it gave you permission. 00:23:16.900 --> 00:23:19.339 So it almost gave you permission to get rid of 00:23:19.339 --> 00:23:21.400 these internalized beliefs of what we should 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:24.960 be and how we should perform and go, OK, this 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:27.940 is why I am like this. This is why I need extra 00:23:27.940 --> 00:23:30.240 time. And maybe stop trying could be something 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:34.180 that. I now know I'm definitely not. Yeah, yeah, 00:23:34.180 --> 00:23:36.799 yeah, yeah. It was only last summer. And I do 00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:38.799 hope for other people that it doesn't take that 00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:45.960 long to find that acceptance. You know, I'm happy 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:49.039 for acceptance. I've worked with autistic children 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:51.720 since I was 18. I never accepted that that was 00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:54.740 right for myself. Yes. That's something I found 00:23:54.740 --> 00:23:57.539 through diagnosis, but I didn't expect, honestly, 00:23:57.900 --> 00:24:01.220 I didn't expect that to be met. Yeah, yeah. I 00:24:01.220 --> 00:24:04.180 was very similar, actually. Actually, autism 00:24:04.180 --> 00:24:07.400 completely. I did not expect that I was autistic 00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:12.180 at all. Typical women, isn't it? Typical women. 00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:14.960 Yeah. I was like, what? It felt so different, 00:24:15.140 --> 00:24:17.960 yeah. I was completely blindsided by autism. 00:24:18.019 --> 00:24:21.319 Yes, me too, yeah. And actually, my son was diagnosed 00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:24.619 with ADHD when he was about 10, and that blindsided 00:24:24.619 --> 00:24:26.900 me as well. I wasn't expecting that. And then 00:24:26.900 --> 00:24:28.259 when he went through that process, I was like, 00:24:28.339 --> 00:24:30.559 oh, yeah, I relate to a lot of that. But autism, 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:33.500 I was like, no, I didn't even come into my awareness 00:24:33.500 --> 00:24:37.339 at all. So, yeah, I think I had a similar experience 00:24:37.339 --> 00:24:40.720 that it gave me permission, but also for as much 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:44.089 as social media gets a lot of bad, right actually 00:24:44.089 --> 00:24:47.509 if it wasn't for social media we wouldn't have 00:24:47.509 --> 00:24:50.230 the level of awareness that we have now about 00:24:50.230 --> 00:24:53.630 autism and adhd and that has been really validating 00:24:53.630 --> 00:24:57.509 in my acceptance of myself as well and the struggles 00:24:57.509 --> 00:25:00.109 that i have because you can i see the learners 00:25:00.109 --> 00:25:03.509 in my class and i think well i'm i'm my life 00:25:03.509 --> 00:25:06.589 isn't like that my brain isn't like that but 00:25:06.589 --> 00:25:08.609 actually i'm looking at social media and i'm 00:25:08.609 --> 00:25:11.839 looking some of the middle -aged women that I 00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:14.279 very much relate to that have this diagnosis 00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:17.880 is that what made me start thinking maybe maybe 00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:22.240 that's what it is yeah yeah yeah 100 % I wouldn't 00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:25.220 even have considered it um I'd have I'd have 00:25:25.220 --> 00:25:27.799 carried on pushing through burnout thinking that 00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:30.259 it was my fault there's something wrong with 00:25:30.259 --> 00:25:32.039 me that I couldn't do all these things and I 00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:34.619 do wonder if there's anyone listening here that 00:25:34.619 --> 00:25:37.829 is in that boat is thinking well If that's what 00:25:37.829 --> 00:25:39.650 autism, you know, my child or my learners, if 00:25:39.650 --> 00:25:41.930 that's what autism is, then surely I can't. Whereas 00:25:41.930 --> 00:25:45.049 actually it can look. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's 00:25:45.049 --> 00:25:47.710 such a broad umbrella and it really can look 00:25:47.710 --> 00:25:50.589 very different in so many different people. There 00:25:50.589 --> 00:25:52.869 are similarities, but, you know, high support 00:25:52.869 --> 00:25:55.900 needs and low support needs looks very. Very, 00:25:55.900 --> 00:25:59.000 very different. Yeah. I think that's where I 00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:02.700 got such a passion for creating a neuro -affirming 00:26:02.700 --> 00:26:06.099 therapy because when I went to therapy, my therapist 00:26:06.099 --> 00:26:09.779 told me I had borderline personality disorder, 00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:12.339 BPD. And actually, as therapists, we're not trained 00:26:12.339 --> 00:26:14.220 to diagnose, so she should never have said that 00:26:14.220 --> 00:26:17.250 anyway. obviously that sent me into quite a lot 00:26:17.250 --> 00:26:19.650 of distress and and and then when i went back 00:26:19.650 --> 00:26:22.190 and said actually i think i'm autistic her response 00:26:22.190 --> 00:26:24.269 was oh well i don't really know much about autism 00:26:24.269 --> 00:26:26.150 i'll have to read so so then i was like well 00:26:26.150 --> 00:26:28.109 if you don't know much about us why why did you 00:26:28.109 --> 00:26:31.910 suggest or really really shut me down and say 00:26:31.910 --> 00:26:35.230 it was bpd so that's that they often get mixed 00:26:35.230 --> 00:26:38.690 actually yeah yeah yeah either gender actually 00:26:38.690 --> 00:26:41.630 that that it gets diagnosed as a personality 00:26:41.630 --> 00:26:45.720 disorder before autism is even suggested yeah 00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:49.160 so maybe it manifests the same maybe it looks 00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:50.500 the same on the outside but yeah you're absolutely 00:26:50.500 --> 00:26:54.680 right without a clinical diagnosis yeah scary 00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:59.130 because you start googling yeah absolutely yeah 00:26:59.130 --> 00:27:02.410 and it can cause like just added layers of shame 00:27:02.410 --> 00:27:04.430 that there's something wrong with you and and 00:27:04.430 --> 00:27:07.089 you're causing your own problems and and all 00:27:07.089 --> 00:27:09.410 of this stuff and it's just that yeah it just 00:27:09.410 --> 00:27:11.789 can cause so much damage and so that's where 00:27:11.789 --> 00:27:14.470 I was like if I'm experiencing this in therapy 00:27:14.470 --> 00:27:16.609 I know I'm not the only one experiencing this 00:27:16.609 --> 00:27:20.690 in therapy do you know what I mean yeah so are 00:27:20.690 --> 00:27:24.680 you the only person that's offering neurodivergent 00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:28.319 support yeah it feels like a new yeah it's really 00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:33.380 needed i bet you're yeah no we are we do yeah 00:27:33.380 --> 00:27:37.039 that's why i've been able to create a team of 00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:38.559 neurodivergent i mean i'm definitely not the 00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:41.640 only one that does it but i definitely know that 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:45.859 training for therapists they do not train for 00:27:45.859 --> 00:27:49.720 neurodivergence so we didn't even have so many 00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:52.799 people in therapy even if they don't know it 00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:56.140 are there yeah because they feel like they're 00:27:56.140 --> 00:27:58.680 burnt out or they've never fit it in or yeah 00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:02.940 All of those things can come from neurodivergence. 00:28:03.660 --> 00:28:06.500 Absolutely, yeah. I mean, when I was in training, 00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:08.359 when you're in training to be a therapist, you 00:28:08.359 --> 00:28:10.779 have a group process. You process all of your 00:28:10.779 --> 00:28:15.119 traumas with your peers in your group. And I 00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:18.579 just remember thinking, I don't experience emotions 00:28:18.579 --> 00:28:20.799 like all of these other people experience. I 00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.180 experience emotions on a really intense level. 00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:26.660 And that made me feel really alien. But there 00:28:26.660 --> 00:28:30.759 was no... mention of autism and adhd so how like 00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:33.660 it's just not inclusive and we're going from 00:28:33.660 --> 00:28:36.819 real old models that actually have not done any 00:28:36.819 --> 00:28:39.799 research on autism and adhd so yeah that's why 00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:42.380 i think it's so important when you're if you 00:28:42.380 --> 00:28:45.220 think suspect whatever that you might be autistic 00:28:45.220 --> 00:28:47.500 with adhd just to make sure you're looking for 00:28:47.500 --> 00:28:50.059 neuro affirming therapists who've done the training 00:28:50.059 --> 00:28:53.670 because then you know or has done some training 00:28:53.670 --> 00:28:55.849 because then you know you're not going to get 00:28:55.849 --> 00:29:00.190 kind of a pathology yeah and even if you're not 00:29:00.190 --> 00:29:03.170 knowingly in therapy for that reason even if 00:29:03.170 --> 00:29:07.130 it's a bereavement therapy or absolutely it is 00:29:07.130 --> 00:29:11.150 just the fact that they are neuro informed absolutely 00:29:11.150 --> 00:29:15.769 you won't be asked to do or expected to do anything 00:29:15.769 --> 00:29:19.369 or act in any certain way that that isn't you 00:29:19.369 --> 00:29:24.930 it isn't possible for you yeah even around why 00:29:24.930 --> 00:29:28.670 you're there I suppose yeah absolutely yeah yeah 00:29:28.670 --> 00:29:31.329 because you know even if like you say if you're 00:29:31.329 --> 00:29:33.210 there for a completely different reason perhaps 00:29:33.210 --> 00:29:35.430 you're there for some some kind of trauma that 00:29:35.430 --> 00:29:37.630 you've experienced earlier on just to have someone 00:29:37.630 --> 00:29:40.490 who is neurofirming who is not going to sit there 00:29:40.490 --> 00:29:42.509 and kind of assume that your I don't know your 00:29:42.509 --> 00:29:44.990 difficulties with eye contact is because of this 00:29:44.990 --> 00:29:49.309 trauma or you know it You need an inclusive approach 00:29:49.309 --> 00:29:51.190 regardless of who you are or where you're coming 00:29:51.190 --> 00:29:53.589 from. Do you know? Yeah. That's really important. 00:29:53.589 --> 00:29:56.329 The wrong thing is not to be assumed about you. 00:29:56.990 --> 00:29:59.230 Yes. Because I suppose if that's mentioned to 00:29:59.230 --> 00:30:03.269 you, then, well, certainly I would start camouflaging 00:30:03.269 --> 00:30:06.569 those things. Yeah, absolutely. Because I know 00:30:06.569 --> 00:30:08.750 that that's not true for me. So maybe I need 00:30:08.750 --> 00:30:11.700 to. prove that it's not true and yeah so how 00:30:11.700 --> 00:30:15.059 unhelpful for you to to then because then then 00:30:15.059 --> 00:30:17.660 you're not uncovering or exploring and figuring 00:30:17.660 --> 00:30:19.839 out that part of yourself you just hide it again 00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:23.299 yeah maybe lots of people have tried therapy 00:30:23.299 --> 00:30:27.039 once and yeah it hasn't worked it hasn't felt 00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:29.779 safe for them or it hasn't really they haven't 00:30:29.779 --> 00:30:33.220 gelled or whatever term they use and maybe that's 00:30:33.220 --> 00:30:36.920 why maybe it's because it didn't feel safe for 00:30:36.920 --> 00:30:39.319 them because they didn't feel seen Absolutely. 00:30:39.319 --> 00:30:41.960 Yeah, I get a lot of messages like that and a 00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:45.220 lot of feedback from the clients that we see 00:30:45.220 --> 00:30:48.039 is that I've been in therapy before. I've never 00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:50.180 had therapy like this. This has really helped 00:30:50.180 --> 00:30:52.019 me. This really supported me. And it is just 00:30:52.019 --> 00:30:54.460 coming out from that lens of, no, you're not 00:30:54.460 --> 00:30:56.680 abnormal. You're not, you know, you're not doing 00:30:56.680 --> 00:30:58.759 these things because of X, Y and Z. Like, let's 00:30:58.759 --> 00:31:02.849 explore, you know. Let's kind of accept who you 00:31:02.849 --> 00:31:05.509 are. I'll at least explore how we figure out 00:31:05.509 --> 00:31:08.009 a way to get to the place where you can accept 00:31:08.009 --> 00:31:11.490 who you are. I also wonder if a huge barrier 00:31:11.490 --> 00:31:13.670 to even seeking therapy in the first place is 00:31:13.670 --> 00:31:16.309 because they don't think that what they're experiencing 00:31:16.309 --> 00:31:20.329 is a big enough trauma. Yeah. You know, you spoke 00:31:20.329 --> 00:31:22.109 right at the beginning about it doesn't have 00:31:22.109 --> 00:31:25.289 to be a big trauma to be trauma. It can be those 00:31:25.289 --> 00:31:29.509 people that are in the workplace experiencing. 00:31:30.220 --> 00:31:32.859 very typical things that are finding it traumatic 00:31:32.859 --> 00:31:35.960 won't necessarily think of going to therapy to 00:31:35.960 --> 00:31:38.619 support themselves navigate those things because 00:31:38.619 --> 00:31:41.099 maybe they would feel like they weren't big enough 00:31:41.099 --> 00:31:43.859 to justify therapy but you're saying that that's 00:31:43.859 --> 00:31:48.839 not the case no and also if i mean i'm a big 00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:51.640 advocate obviously i'm a big advocate for therapy 00:31:52.639 --> 00:31:54.500 Even if you don't think you've ever experienced 00:31:54.500 --> 00:31:56.839 trauma, because you will have internalised beliefs 00:31:56.839 --> 00:31:59.940 about things, about yourself. And so it's even 00:31:59.940 --> 00:32:03.099 just to explore that. But yeah, if you're kind 00:32:03.099 --> 00:32:04.960 of have gone through life and you're thinking, 00:32:05.059 --> 00:32:07.619 well, I don't know, so -and -so next door, they 00:32:07.619 --> 00:32:09.339 lost their parent when they were really young 00:32:09.339 --> 00:32:12.079 or so -and -so down the road, they had really 00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:15.160 big trauma. So mine's nothing in comparison to 00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:17.609 them. actually, you might have experienced some 00:32:17.609 --> 00:32:20.470 micro traumas that are stored within your body 00:32:20.470 --> 00:32:22.670 and maybe just need entangling a little bit. 00:32:22.990 --> 00:32:24.789 Yeah, that's so interesting, giving yourself 00:32:24.789 --> 00:32:29.289 that permission to explore this avenue and almost 00:32:29.289 --> 00:32:32.630 without expectation because you don't know what's 00:32:32.630 --> 00:32:36.289 going to come out of it. It could be incredibly 00:32:36.289 --> 00:32:39.589 helpful for you navigating the world and coming 00:32:39.589 --> 00:32:43.069 out of burnout and feeling like you can manage 00:32:43.069 --> 00:32:47.480 your life. I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. And also just 00:32:47.480 --> 00:32:49.900 giving you permission to just be, I think, in 00:32:49.900 --> 00:32:52.059 the training that I offer for therapists is like 00:32:52.059 --> 00:32:55.839 we're taught, we're trained as therapists to 00:32:55.839 --> 00:33:00.440 never self -disclose, you know, or be very careful 00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:02.940 how you self -disclose and kind of like you're 00:33:02.940 --> 00:33:05.599 a blank canvas. But for me, that's terrifying. 00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:07.920 That does not make me feel safe if I'm just sat 00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:09.839 opposite someone who's just staring at me like 00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:12.480 this and nodding a little bit. That's awful. 00:33:12.779 --> 00:33:16.309 So a big part of what I always... recommend is 00:33:16.309 --> 00:33:18.369 to like if someone is talking about something 00:33:18.369 --> 00:33:20.569 that they're feeling like they're really alone 00:33:20.569 --> 00:33:23.349 about really isolated about and you relate to 00:33:23.349 --> 00:33:25.789 it just offer that like I really relate to that 00:33:25.789 --> 00:33:27.970 feeling that you don't have to go into anything 00:33:27.970 --> 00:33:29.809 else if you don't feel comfortable but to hear 00:33:29.809 --> 00:33:32.869 someone say my god I really relate to that if 00:33:32.869 --> 00:33:36.490 you've never heard anyone experience that my 00:33:36.490 --> 00:33:38.710 goodness like the layers of shame that can just 00:33:38.710 --> 00:33:42.349 kind of come off of that yeah it's huge I like 00:33:42.349 --> 00:33:45.819 it and you yeah about it then maybe it's not 00:33:45.819 --> 00:33:48.440 shameful maybe it's absolutely maybe it's more 00:33:48.440 --> 00:33:51.640 common than what yeah yeah yeah so people are 00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:53.900 listening to this and you know you're speaking 00:33:53.900 --> 00:33:56.039 to them they're lived in their lived experiences 00:33:56.039 --> 00:33:58.940 they're thinking yep that's me that's me that's 00:33:58.940 --> 00:34:01.420 me yep and that and that what can they do as 00:34:01.420 --> 00:34:05.380 a first step as a first step i would always recommend 00:34:05.380 --> 00:34:08.199 doing a bit of research and just seeing like 00:34:08.199 --> 00:34:10.880 what do you relate to and what don't you and 00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:13.219 and i think what's really important is whilst 00:34:13.219 --> 00:34:16.480 when you go down that path it can be really validating 00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:18.440 once you get a diagnosis you can also go through 00:34:18.440 --> 00:34:21.940 a real identity crisis like oh my goodness yeah 00:34:21.940 --> 00:34:25.510 yeah who am i like who is who what's the mask 00:34:25.510 --> 00:34:27.230 i don't even know who i am without the master 00:34:27.230 --> 00:34:30.309 so it's just being aware and having some support 00:34:30.309 --> 00:34:32.769 in place even if it's not therapy maybe you can't 00:34:32.769 --> 00:34:34.710 afford therapy or whatever wherever you're at 00:34:34.710 --> 00:34:37.269 but having some really supportive safe people 00:34:37.269 --> 00:34:40.889 that you can go to to say it really relate to 00:34:40.889 --> 00:34:42.809 some of these this stuff that i've researched 00:34:42.809 --> 00:34:45.789 can i just offload what i'm feeling about this 00:34:45.789 --> 00:34:48.590 i think it's really important and then obviously 00:34:48.590 --> 00:34:51.630 if you can get support extra support definitely 00:34:51.630 --> 00:34:55.429 go and get that um that's what really great point 00:34:55.429 --> 00:34:58.929 it is really worth saying that you know yes diagnosis 00:34:58.929 --> 00:35:02.550 is validating in the end but it takes a long 00:35:02.550 --> 00:35:04.710 time sometimes for that to sink in I had to pause 00:35:04.710 --> 00:35:07.869 the process for months in between the process 00:35:07.869 --> 00:35:10.949 yeah I felt like it was all of a sudden rush 00:35:10.949 --> 00:35:14.469 and I wasn't ready to hear those words yeah yeah 00:35:14.469 --> 00:35:18.150 that I'd never seen and felt about myself and 00:35:18.150 --> 00:35:20.679 I have to let it sink in before carrying on and 00:35:20.679 --> 00:35:25.500 that's also okay absolutely yeah that timed process 00:35:25.500 --> 00:35:28.840 what that means for you it might then you go 00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:31.099 back in your life and think that's what it was 00:35:31.099 --> 00:35:33.260 that's what it was and that can be really exhausting 00:35:33.260 --> 00:35:38.079 it can be a real shock um yeah and so just give 00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:41.639 yourself grace in that and allow that to settle 00:35:41.639 --> 00:35:45.349 there's no rush in this Yes, absolutely. And 00:35:45.349 --> 00:35:47.650 also acknowledging that if you have come from 00:35:47.650 --> 00:35:51.050 a family who have preconceived ideas about what 00:35:51.050 --> 00:35:53.369 autism and ADHD is, then perhaps you might have 00:35:53.369 --> 00:35:56.090 these preconceived ideas and that might be why 00:35:56.090 --> 00:35:58.349 you want to reject it. And it's okay if you have 00:35:58.349 --> 00:36:00.429 that response, but then it's about, okay, how 00:36:00.429 --> 00:36:03.920 do I allow that? in how do I allow myself to 00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:07.139 explore it a little bit I'm not so frustrated 00:36:07.139 --> 00:36:09.820 with that either because I certainly felt that 00:36:09.820 --> 00:36:12.260 and then I immediately felt shame because I'm 00:36:12.260 --> 00:36:15.440 such a huge advocate for autism I love my autistic 00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:19.519 learners I love my ADHD learners so much and 00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:21.719 I really celebrate that but yet didn't want that 00:36:21.719 --> 00:36:23.920 for myself I felt shame around that because then 00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:27.079 yeah was I just this fraud or you know like you 00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:31.440 start through help and support and time yeah 00:36:31.789 --> 00:36:35.170 Yeah. It settles in your body and it feels okay 00:36:35.170 --> 00:36:36.849 for you, but it's absolutely okay if you're in 00:36:36.849 --> 00:36:40.510 that step of, I don't, it just changes all of 00:36:40.510 --> 00:36:43.730 your identity and all of that. It's okay. And 00:36:43.730 --> 00:36:46.869 it's scary. Yeah, it is okay. It's scary. It's 00:36:46.869 --> 00:36:49.150 terrifying. I think, again, touching on social 00:36:49.150 --> 00:36:53.090 media, you can actually feel like there is a 00:36:53.090 --> 00:36:55.730 bit of a community out there that experiences 00:36:55.730 --> 00:36:58.170 things in a similar way to what you experience 00:36:58.170 --> 00:37:00.530 things. And I wish I'd have had that when I went 00:37:00.530 --> 00:37:02.170 through it because it really wasn't out there 00:37:02.170 --> 00:37:04.710 when I went through all of that process. But 00:37:04.710 --> 00:37:08.309 now there is. So if you're feeling like really 00:37:08.309 --> 00:37:10.570 alone and really like, oh my goodness, where 00:37:10.570 --> 00:37:14.300 do I go? What do I do? social media following 00:37:14.300 --> 00:37:16.860 some really you know really authentic accounts 00:37:16.860 --> 00:37:20.760 that explore and talk about autism and adhd um 00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:23.940 in this way can just help you feel a little less 00:37:23.940 --> 00:37:26.579 alone absolutely i'll leave some in the comments 00:37:26.579 --> 00:37:30.059 below actually if you uh if you want to and you 00:37:30.059 --> 00:37:32.719 might see then reflecting back at yourself and 00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:34.920 if you're you have others i haven't included 00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:37.219 please include them in the comments as well below 00:37:37.219 --> 00:37:40.179 so that yeah yeah you can see we can all find 00:37:40.179 --> 00:37:42.780 people that reflect ourselves back at us i think 00:37:42.780 --> 00:37:45.019 it's so important and for lots of different reasons 00:37:45.019 --> 00:37:48.699 but this yes yeah absolutely yeah yeah it can 00:37:48.699 --> 00:37:51.280 feel quite isolating so as long as you know there 00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:52.760 are people out there even if they're across the 00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:55.219 world i mean that's what social yeah it's best 00:37:55.219 --> 00:37:59.159 isn't it absolutely yeah it's it's really valuable 00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:02.909 i think yeah and I suppose if people are listening 00:38:02.909 --> 00:38:04.610 to this and it's not necessarily about them but 00:38:04.610 --> 00:38:07.090 it might be about other neurodivergent people 00:38:07.090 --> 00:38:10.369 in their lives how can they better protect and 00:38:10.369 --> 00:38:13.519 support those people whether they're children 00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:17.460 or adults, I suppose. Yeah, educate, kind of 00:38:17.460 --> 00:38:20.599 just do as much as you can in terms of learning 00:38:20.599 --> 00:38:23.559 about what it might be like for them to experience 00:38:23.559 --> 00:38:27.940 being autistic and ADHD and ask them. If they 00:38:27.940 --> 00:38:30.159 know they're autistic and ADHD, they might be 00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:33.019 really up. And actually that makes us feel seen. 00:38:33.179 --> 00:38:35.760 If someone says to us, oh my goodness, tell me 00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:38.820 what that's like for you. That is so healing 00:38:38.820 --> 00:38:42.159 and feels so... validating because usually what 00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:44.739 we're up against is oh everyone's autistic these 00:38:44.739 --> 00:38:47.559 days or oh everybody does that and that really 00:38:47.559 --> 00:38:50.420 shuts us down but actually for someone to say 00:38:50.420 --> 00:38:53.599 tell me about you and your experience that's 00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:55.659 huge even if you don't have a lot of knowledge 00:38:55.659 --> 00:38:58.699 just asking those questions for someone can feel 00:38:58.699 --> 00:39:02.400 really um a real strong connection yeah that 00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:04.860 you're going to learn something and it can change 00:39:04.860 --> 00:39:06.940 your perception and that's only makes you a better 00:39:07.469 --> 00:39:10.949 advocate and support yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean 00:39:10.949 --> 00:39:12.849 god wouldn't the world be such a great place 00:39:12.849 --> 00:39:17.250 if if people were interested without expectation 00:39:17.250 --> 00:39:20.150 like not necessarily questioning but that everybody 00:39:20.150 --> 00:39:23.170 felt safe enough to just talk about this absolutely 00:39:23.170 --> 00:39:28.170 yeah not being shut down or without yeah or yeah 00:39:28.170 --> 00:39:30.250 yeah I mean that's the world I would like to 00:39:30.250 --> 00:39:32.570 live in that's that's my little push from above 00:39:32.570 --> 00:39:35.329 all I suppose I do protect myself from that and 00:39:35.329 --> 00:39:38.980 sometimes it's wonderful the social media bubble 00:39:38.980 --> 00:39:41.320 because you know it's an echo chamber of like 00:39:41.320 --> 00:39:45.380 -minded people and sometimes i forget and i catch 00:39:45.380 --> 00:39:48.739 myself out in the real world um and i think probably 00:39:48.739 --> 00:39:51.639 that i don't normally hear in this safe space 00:39:51.639 --> 00:39:54.800 yeah absolutely still got such a long way to 00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:58.460 go whereas in this little bubble it can you can 00:39:58.460 --> 00:40:01.260 live a full sense of security that oh everybody 00:40:01.260 --> 00:40:05.519 yeah i mean and That's such a good point. Yeah, 00:40:05.619 --> 00:40:07.260 when you're in this work and you're doing it 00:40:07.260 --> 00:40:09.920 every day, you're kind of in that safe, protected, 00:40:10.260 --> 00:40:13.400 everyone accepts it and it's really validating. 00:40:13.400 --> 00:40:15.599 But then, yeah, suddenly you walk down the street, 00:40:15.659 --> 00:40:17.579 you bump into someone and they make a comment 00:40:17.579 --> 00:40:19.699 and you're like, oh, no, we're still miles away. 00:40:20.019 --> 00:40:22.599 Yes, it bursts a bubble. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. 00:40:22.860 --> 00:40:24.920 And then you just think, oh, yeah, we have, we've 00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:27.630 got, we have still got. a way to go it is still 00:40:27.630 --> 00:40:30.530 worth you know talking about this is there are 00:40:30.530 --> 00:40:32.690 so many more people out there that don't know 00:40:32.690 --> 00:40:35.510 this stuff so yeah yeah keep being advocates 00:40:35.510 --> 00:40:39.190 and keep learning there's so much more to them 00:40:39.190 --> 00:40:42.309 all the time yeah i love this podcast for is 00:40:42.309 --> 00:40:44.789 speaking to experts like yourself to kind of 00:40:44.789 --> 00:40:48.590 yeah just to spread yeah knowledge awareness 00:40:48.590 --> 00:40:52.730 yeah absolutely yeah oh thank you so much katie 00:40:52.730 --> 00:40:56.190 this has been so valuable and I can already feel 00:40:56.190 --> 00:40:58.250 that it's a podcast that I know I'm going to 00:40:58.250 --> 00:41:01.369 share in my DMs as answers lots. You know, if 00:41:01.369 --> 00:41:04.110 people are asking about themselves or learners 00:41:04.110 --> 00:41:05.710 and how to support them, I think it's a really 00:41:05.710 --> 00:41:08.730 great start to understand more about trauma and 00:41:08.730 --> 00:41:11.650 why that comes and then how best to support those 00:41:11.650 --> 00:41:13.929 people in our lives. I think it is the fundamentals 00:41:13.929 --> 00:41:17.210 before you layer on anything else. I think it's 00:41:17.210 --> 00:41:19.590 about safe space and holding that. Absolutely. 00:41:20.589 --> 00:41:22.670 Yeah, well, thank you. Thank you for having me. 00:41:22.690 --> 00:41:25.250 I followed you a while. I really love your content. 00:41:25.429 --> 00:41:27.550 So yeah, really. I'm honoured. I'm honoured. 00:41:27.769 --> 00:41:30.530 It's bringing us together. It blows my mind. 00:41:30.610 --> 00:41:32.469 It's really exciting to me to be able to share 00:41:32.469 --> 00:41:35.530 this. If people want to find out more about your 00:41:35.530 --> 00:41:38.769 practice in particular, where can they go to 00:41:38.769 --> 00:41:43.900 find out more from you? www .neurodivergenttherapyspace 00:41:43.900 --> 00:41:47.280 .com that is where you will see our team of people 00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:49.380 you'll get to know a little bit about our practice 00:41:49.380 --> 00:41:53.079 and how we work and then if you want to see the 00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:55.179 kind of the content and the stuff that i post 00:41:55.179 --> 00:41:57.639 then it's and i get this one as well it's at 00:41:57.639 --> 00:41:59.780 neurodivergent underscore therapy underscore 00:41:59.780 --> 00:42:05.050 uk Thank you. All of the links are down below. 00:42:05.050 --> 00:42:07.130 I've got social media, website, everything. So 00:42:07.130 --> 00:42:09.630 you can find out more about Katie there. Thank 00:42:09.630 --> 00:42:12.530 you so much for joining me today, Katie. Thank 00:42:12.530 --> 00:42:14.070 you for having me. It's been really lovely.