Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education
teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything
communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson
ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged
4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in
the field answering your questions and sharing
our knowledge and experience working alongside
our beautiful young people. Let's get started.
Hello everybody and welcome to the Sensory Classroom
podcast. My name is Jordan and today I am joined
by Katie of at neurodivergent underscore therapist
underscore UK. She is a parent and psychotherapist.
Katie is an autistic and ADHD psychotherapist,
parent and founder of the neurodivergent therapy
space. Hi Katie. Hi. Are you first of all alright
to introduce yourself a little bit about you
and the work you do? Yes. So, yeah, I am Katie,
which you just introduced me as. I trained as
a therapist probably about four or five years
ago now as a kind of traditional therapist. And
amongst whilst I was training as a therapist,
I realised I was autistic and ADHD and kind of
traditional therapy just wasn't working for me.
It was causing me a lot more harm. So I went
down the route of creating a space that is neuroaffirming
and works. for autistic and ADHD people by autistic
and ADHD people because I think that's really
important. Amazing. So all of your work now,
is it more focused on supporting neurodivergence
by neurodivergence and that's the idea of it?
Yes. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Just kind of a space
where someone doesn't have to come in and explain
or try and convince someone why their brain is
working the way they are because I think in a
lot of traditional therapy, therapists can assume
everything is rooted to trauma when actually
it might be just because you need to fidget with
something because it makes you comfortable, not
because you're in distress. Do you see what I
mean? It's kind of flipping the perception that
we have around body language and behaviour and
emotions. I've also noticed in therapy myself
with I end up like trying to work out what they
want me to do. to say like it ends up like sometimes
a million absolutely and I leave thinking I did
all of that for them to make them feel like a
good therapist yeah not me at all is that kind
of is that all the experience yes absolutely
because if you've gone your whole life feeling
like there's something wrong with you or you're
not quite doing things the way other people are
doing things and then you go to therapy and you
suddenly sat in front of a professional and they're
they're kind of sat there waiting for you to
talk and then you go into this pattern you're
going to fight or flight and you're going to
oh my goodness what do they want me to say what
do I what do I do what do I need to get this
right and it's then it exacerbates all of the
feelings you are already having so it doesn't
work in the end you know so it's yeah so you
mentioned trauma you mentioned that they just
assume everything you're doing is leading from
trauma but then I suppose there's a lot of trauma
in being night version and growing up neurodivergent
um not because being over divergent causes trauma
in itself but it's like yeah are you right explaining
a little bit about one what trauma is and then
also why it would manifest itself in these neurodivergent
brains yeah Yeah, yeah. So trauma is something
that happens that leaves an imprint in your body.
And how I describe it is if you imagine a nervous
system is like a wire loop that goes all the
way around your body. Every time you experience
a trauma, it leaves a kink in your nervous system.
So every time you come across something that
your body feels is similar to that trauma, it
gets stuck on the kink and it can't move. past
it so the idea for therapy is to iron out that
trauma and it will always be there you will always
feel it but it won't be as intense and it won't
get stuck um and why a lot of neurodivergent
people experience so much trauma is because society
conditions us to be a certain way and because
we can't fit that mold that society has given
us And it causes us quite extreme distress, you
know, like trying to fit into a typical classroom
environment can cause extreme distress for children.
Trying to fit into a typical work environment
can cause extreme distress for adults. All of
these things kind of just layer up. You end up
with so many kinks in your nervous system. Do
you see what I mean? And so that's what, and
then obviously the more trauma you have, it just
layers on top. And that's why we experience,
and also not to mention kind of all of the sensory
overwhelm that we might experience in everyday
life. It makes sense that we do naturally experience
a lot of trauma throughout our life. Yeah, and
sometimes the term trauma... people might hear
that and think well I haven't experienced that
because nothing extreme has happened but I guess
absolutely it can be the little and often everyday
stuff that builds up yeah yeah yeah yeah and
also how this is another thing with kind of therapy
and how we perceive trauma a lot of us can think
trauma has to be massive and that's the thing
that's going to impact us and if it's not massive
then it's not really trauma but actually it is
and what I might experience as trauma might not
be what you experience as trauma and vice versa
and so it's not coming out from this one size
fits all approach it's kind of actually what
what has happened to you and what does that trauma
feel like for you do you see what I mean and
then talking about your analogy with the kinks
as well that's such a lovely visual way of understanding
it is it that when you experience things aligned
with that trauma even if it's not necessarily
traumatic in itself, if it's just aligned or
similar to in any way of its feeling, that could
also feel like trauma. Yeah, yeah. So if, for
example, I always like to think our bodies have
got like an alarm system within us and that's
our nervous system going, no, this is dangerous.
So if you, I don't know, say you experience some
abandonment trauma as a child and you then enter
a relationship as an adult and in that relationship,
I don't know, that person does something. It's
not abandoning you in any way, shape or form,
but your nervous system goes, oh, we've been
here before. Get out. This is not safe. The alarm
bells start ringing. And that's the kink in the
nervous system. That's the kind of block that
you hit. So you might find that you might want
to run away from that relationship or you might
find that you become an extra sort of clingy
in that relationship and you don't feel safe
or comfortable leaving that partner. That's how
trauma plays out in the here and now when it's
from the past. if that makes sense and it's something
that i see in my learners it's something that
i see in my support staff um yeah that's very
interesting immediately i was thinking of the
children that come to my specialist provision
from mainstream and they see a chair a table
they see visuals they see work on paper and you
can way is so triggering for them yeah even though
maybe what we're offering is accessible is errorless
is yeah maybe something they enjoy but just seeing
that feeling that you can see what they've been
through before yeah manifests itself inside a
classroom maybe Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if
you imagine a child going into a classroom who's
been kind of maybe experienced quite a bit of
trauma in a classroom. Schools are big and schools
are really quite traumatic for a lot of neurodivergent.
um children that is all that trauma's already
imprinted that kink's already there so like you
say if they're coming into you and maybe you've
got a table that reflects a similar table to
what they had in a previous classroom they're
going to hit that kink in the nervous system
straight away their alarm bells are going off
going nope this isn't safe and and and then it's
kind of like okay how do we regulate how do we
work in this space and make it less traumatic
for this child I did see somebody, an autistic
adult, say yesterday, if we were to design an
environment that was literally the worst environment
for, and traumatic environment for, a neurodivergent
person, it would look like a school. It would
look echoing. 100%. There would be lots of people.
There would be bright lights. There would be
no demands. They would be, you know, you have
to sit still and be quiet. And all of those things
are like, this is natural hell. So what are we
doing? I know, it's so frustrating, isn't it?
And I don't know any adult who hasn't experienced
trauma in school and we're still doing the same
way. It's just like, yeah, it's bizarre. So I
suppose let's go into that. What kind of trauma
can happen at school? And I suppose by understanding
that, we can kind of then talk about what do
we do instead or how do we support them in that?
So what kind of trauma would you see, would a
learner experience in school? So, I mean, I guess
there's kind of your everyday trauma in a school.
Schools are big, they're bright lights. It's
a very loud environment. It's very unsettling.
There's a lot of change. There's a lot of demands.
Like you say, you have to sit a certain way.
Quite often, we're still, I mean, it's been a
few years since I worked in a school, but when
I did work in a school, we're still, we were
still very much teaching them, sit up straight,
fold your arms, get your listening ears on, you
know, all of... all of these traditional things
that is quite terrifying. And a child is leaving
their safe space, usually their safe space, which
is home, not always, but usually their safe space,
which is home, with their safe adults. And they're
going into such an unfamiliar environment. And
I don't know about you, but for me, when I was
in studying, I went to the same building as an
adult, same building every single week to do
my course. And every single week that caused
me a huge amount of anxiety. So imagine being
little and not understanding what's going on
in your body and then going into a school and
having to deal with that. And then obviously.
You've got your peers. You don't know if you
get on with your peers. So there could be a lot
of bullying going on. Then you've got teachers
and perhaps teachers are maybe not trauma informed.
Perhaps the teachers haven't done some self work.
And so they might be nitpicking at certain things.
Perhaps they're coming from a traditional angle
of you're the child, I'm the teacher. Listen
and do as I say. All of that is like for six
hours a day is a lot. And special education classrooms
are not. alone like are not apart from that either
you know they might we might not be nitpicking
and they might not be bullying necessarily however
because you're getting so many different sensory
profiles all in one room yeah yeah it's so often
a domino effect there's children that are really
noise avoidant there are children that are noise
seeking there are children that are movement
avoidant yeah yeah yeah constantly finding that
kind of still feeling of bullying although it's
not intentional happens constantly if they're
being triggered so almost the worst place for
an autistic learner to be is so often the loudest
classroom and that's where they are so that can
be really hard to navigate as a special education
teacher too is you're trying to make the perfect
environment for each of your learners and yet
the learners themselves it's really hard to navigate
that and I can see why it's very traumatic Yeah.
And also what you're describing there is if you
imagine a neurodivergent family where you've
got multiple neurodivergents in the house and
you're trying to accommodate everyone's needs,
you've got it on a much bigger scale because
you've got all of these children that are neurodivergent
and you're trying to cater for all of their needs
and your own needs as well. So it's, yeah, I
can imagine that it's really, really hard. Yeah,
it feels overwhelming often. Like I had a comment
on one of my posts yesterday saying, how do we
not feel overwhelmed? like absolutely i couldn't
answer it because it is an incredibly overwhelming
environment yeah yeah yeah whether you're neurodivergent
or not as a lead but certainly i find that it
can be overstimulating and overwhelming trying
to navigate all of that yeah and just trying
to support them as best as possible it it feels
like an impossible job sometimes i've got the
privilege of having a huge Classroom with lots
of different rooms. So that's kind of how we
navigate it. I know lots of teachers don't have
that luxury. They have one big room with everybody
in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And also underfunding
and not having enough staff to be able to look
after and help out in the classroom to kind of
help everyone, support everyone. Absolutely.
What could the long term effect be on these experiences
through life then as we look at our learners
going into adulthood? what does that entail?
The long -term effect is obviously if you, so
trauma stays in the body and when we experience
complex trauma, which is like multi -layered
trauma, you're putting strain on your nervous
system. Your nervous system is supposed to be
kind of neutral most of the time and it's only
supposed to spike when there's danger. If we're
constantly in this spike, our bodies just don't
have the resources to keep up with that. So by
the time we get to adulthood, adulthood and it's
why we have so many adults now in burnout because
we've gone so long trying to cope and survive
in survival mode up here our bodies are giving
up they're going i can't cannot sustain this
anymore you're gonna have to you're gonna have
to rest because i can't cope do you see what
i mean so burnout and and a lot of chronic health
conditions there's a lot of research now about
the implications of trauma on the body over a
long sustained period of time and how that affects
our physical health so it comes out in some way
if you're masking and holding it all in it's
going to come out in a physical way that's so
absolutely yeah yeah yeah burnout i've heard
the term adhd burnout autism burnout what does
that look like for adults you know how how do
you know if you're burnt out or just tired from
a busy day what's the difference yeah so Tired
from a busy day, you would recover after a good
night's sleep and a bit of self -care. Burnout
is usually a prolonged state. And I always say
there's a lot of content out there about the
big signs of burnout. So, I don't know, you can't
go to social events, you need a lot of time to
rest, you can't engage in things. But the real
subtle signs of burnout might be that... you're
dreading going to a meeting and it might only
be an hour's meeting. You're getting stuck kind
of doom scrolling on your phone. You can't make
any decisions, even just, it could be the most
simple decision, like what top do I wear? You
have no capacity to figure that out. And so it's
looking at those little signs that actually you
could be in burnout, feeling quite irritable
with. people that you love not having capacity
to communicate with them is another big big kind
of indicator that actually you might be in burnout
but also burnout and chronic health can can look
very similar so you might might suddenly have
gone from being very active on a regular basis
to you physically have absolutely no energy you're
in pain you you have to rest because you have
you otherwise you're in pain there's there's
quite a lot of layers and it's um quite subjective
to everybody but there's some key kind of indicators
that would suggest you're in burnout not just
tired what's happening on a brain level there
is it protection is it so that you don't hurt
yourself more or is it your brain forcing you
to try and rest what what is happening there
I think well kind of like how I described earlier
when we're in this spike this kind of the alarms
going off 24 7 in your nervous system your nervous
system that your alarm is like the protector
like hello listen to me we need to we need to
stop when we when we're not able to listen to
that alarm and we've hit burnout then you're
essentially your body's going have nothing left
i can't do anything for you you know you have
to rest i can't give you any more do you know
what i mean it's like if you imagine a battery
on your phone it's dead it's completely dead
And sometimes it can take months and years to
come out of burnout. So it's not like a couple
of days rest is going to work. You know, you're
going to have to take a considerable amount of
time to recover from that burnout and get back
to kind of a base level of energy. Is it possible
to come out of burnout without making significant
changes in your life? I've seen it before where
colleagues have taken months off, you know, really
sick. just cannot complete burnout they cannot
come in and then they start to feel better they
start to feel like they've got a hand on the
world they start to feel like they're inside
their own bodies and then they come back to work
and they are immediately hit with it again because
actually nothing's changed yeah yeah they're
so they're going back into that trauma response
that stress response again is it possible or
do you is the idea that actually you have to
make life changes in order to long term is it
yeah I would say I don't want to say yes definitely
that is the answer but but I would definitely
say you would no no I'm not I wouldn't definitely
say I would imagine you would have to make some
life changes for most people to be able to live
because it's a bit like once you see something
you can't unsee it And it's the same with our
body. Once we see, oh my goodness, this thing
that I've masked my whole life has actually led
me to be in burnout. You can't unsee that anymore
and you can't close the curtains on that anymore.
Your body sees it and your body knows it. So
you kind of have to listen to it and adapt to,
which is a privilege. If you can adapt your lifestyle
to... reduce and come out of burnout that is
a privilege not everyone can do that and so it's
acknowledging that as well so then it's like
okay I've got young kids I can't take a month
off them how do I navigate this what things can
I put in place to change my lifestyle as best
as I can what kind of advice would you be giving
somebody that you were working with that couldn't
make those life changes like you say they are
in a secure job that they can't afford to get
out of they are in a relationship you know, that
they need, they have like children and those
kind of things, they can't move out of the city.
Like it isn't practical to make those changes.
What can they do practically to support themselves
to navigate life that way? So I would be... helping
someone to look at their nervous system as like
a whole and how and your nervous system is currently
up here and there's nothing there's not a lot
you can do to change these external factors to
bring it down from there permanently we can't
do permanently but for the majority of time so
what things can we implement or take out that
means we can reduce that spike multiple times
a day For example, for me, gardening is something
where I completely switch off from the outside
world. I can really just connect to what I'm
doing in the garden, what I'm creating. And that
brings my nervous system right down because I'm
not in my head ruminating. I'm not out in the
stress. So it's looking at what, for me, can
regulate me and bring my nervous system down
for as many times a day, even if it's not for
long. But if I can do 10 minutes every couple
of hours, then we can just start to bring our
nervous system down regularly. I guess because
when it spikes, it's harder to come down from
that. Yeah, yeah. Almost like creating our own
sensory diet for ourselves. Yeah, yeah. And I
guess the more you do that, the more you become
aware of when you need it. And so, yes, you might
not. You might be running around all day with
the kids and trying to care for your kids who
have sensory needs. But if you can take five,
ten minutes putting some headphones in, bringing
your nervous system back down. You're rewiring
your brain, if you like, in a way. The other
way I like to describe it is if you've got muscle,
you've got a pair of biceps, if you're constantly
flexing this muscle, that is to go, go, go, got
to do this, got to do that, be on high alert,
this is really strong. So we need to flex this
muscle that says, okay, recognize we need to
take time out. And even if it's just for a few
minutes, we need to take time out. And eventually
this muscle gets stronger, takes a long time,
but then you can recognize the signs before it
happens. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, it's a
muscle you've got to exercise. Yeah, I can feel
that. I can certainly feel that. It's something
that gets easier over time that might feel like
a real chore at first. You might have to really
remember to do it, really like consciously do
it. And then maybe it becomes more unconscious,
subconscious. Yes. The more you do it, it becomes
more second nature. Engrained. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Something I noticed that diagnosis gave me actually.
was grace on myself so to all of a sudden I let
go just trying to be and it gave it grace to
myself but it also gave me a term and a justification
to others to help others understand me and how
my work so I found that diagnosis even on on
of its own supported the burnout because I could
explain to others why i found something difficult
or impossible rather than always putting on myself
of i should i i should do this yeah but actually
the diagnosis made it just explained why i would
find that more difficult than somebody yeah next
to me um and i found that at work and at home
in my family just that understanding that grace
too that things might take longer that things
might feel more of a challenge that actually
I can say no to certain things that don't feel
safe for me even though it might make no actual
sense you know it's not actually unsafe but it
feels unsafe for me all of those things all of
a sudden became easier and then it made relationships
feel easier or more relaxed so then i actually
could do some of those things that i couldn't
do before i mean i am a huge advocate of diagnosis
which is a huge privilege as well it takes a
hell of a lot of time and um expertise and capacity
to go through that process but that's certainly
something that's helped me i don't know if that's
common on yeah Yeah. And it sounds like what
you experienced there was it gave you permission.
So it almost gave you permission to get rid of
these internalized beliefs of what we should
be and how we should perform and go, OK, this
is why I am like this. This is why I need extra
time. And maybe stop trying could be something
that. I now know I'm definitely not. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah. It was only last summer. And I do
hope for other people that it doesn't take that
long to find that acceptance. You know, I'm happy
for acceptance. I've worked with autistic children
since I was 18. I never accepted that that was
right for myself. Yes. That's something I found
through diagnosis, but I didn't expect, honestly,
I didn't expect that to be met. Yeah, yeah. I
was very similar, actually. Actually, autism
completely. I did not expect that I was autistic
at all. Typical women, isn't it? Typical women.
Yeah. I was like, what? It felt so different,
yeah. I was completely blindsided by autism.
Yes, me too, yeah. And actually, my son was diagnosed
with ADHD when he was about 10, and that blindsided
me as well. I wasn't expecting that. And then
when he went through that process, I was like,
oh, yeah, I relate to a lot of that. But autism,
I was like, no, I didn't even come into my awareness
at all. So, yeah, I think I had a similar experience
that it gave me permission, but also for as much
as social media gets a lot of bad, right actually
if it wasn't for social media we wouldn't have
the level of awareness that we have now about
autism and adhd and that has been really validating
in my acceptance of myself as well and the struggles
that i have because you can i see the learners
in my class and i think well i'm i'm my life
isn't like that my brain isn't like that but
actually i'm looking at social media and i'm
looking some of the middle -aged women that I
very much relate to that have this diagnosis
is that what made me start thinking maybe maybe
that's what it is yeah yeah yeah 100 % I wouldn't
even have considered it um I'd have I'd have
carried on pushing through burnout thinking that
it was my fault there's something wrong with
me that I couldn't do all these things and I
do wonder if there's anyone listening here that
is in that boat is thinking well If that's what
autism, you know, my child or my learners, if
that's what autism is, then surely I can't. Whereas
actually it can look. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's
such a broad umbrella and it really can look
very different in so many different people. There
are similarities, but, you know, high support
needs and low support needs looks very. Very,
very different. Yeah. I think that's where I
got such a passion for creating a neuro -affirming
therapy because when I went to therapy, my therapist
told me I had borderline personality disorder,
BPD. And actually, as therapists, we're not trained
to diagnose, so she should never have said that
anyway. obviously that sent me into quite a lot
of distress and and and then when i went back
and said actually i think i'm autistic her response
was oh well i don't really know much about autism
i'll have to read so so then i was like well
if you don't know much about us why why did you
suggest or really really shut me down and say
it was bpd so that's that they often get mixed
actually yeah yeah yeah either gender actually
that that it gets diagnosed as a personality
disorder before autism is even suggested yeah
so maybe it manifests the same maybe it looks
the same on the outside but yeah you're absolutely
right without a clinical diagnosis yeah scary
because you start googling yeah absolutely yeah
and it can cause like just added layers of shame
that there's something wrong with you and and
you're causing your own problems and and all
of this stuff and it's just that yeah it just
can cause so much damage and so that's where
I was like if I'm experiencing this in therapy
I know I'm not the only one experiencing this
in therapy do you know what I mean yeah so are
you the only person that's offering neurodivergent
support yeah it feels like a new yeah it's really
needed i bet you're yeah no we are we do yeah
that's why i've been able to create a team of
neurodivergent i mean i'm definitely not the
only one that does it but i definitely know that
training for therapists they do not train for
neurodivergence so we didn't even have so many
people in therapy even if they don't know it
are there yeah because they feel like they're
burnt out or they've never fit it in or yeah
All of those things can come from neurodivergence.
Absolutely, yeah. I mean, when I was in training,
when you're in training to be a therapist, you
have a group process. You process all of your
traumas with your peers in your group. And I
just remember thinking, I don't experience emotions
like all of these other people experience. I
experience emotions on a really intense level.
And that made me feel really alien. But there
was no... mention of autism and adhd so how like
it's just not inclusive and we're going from
real old models that actually have not done any
research on autism and adhd so yeah that's why
i think it's so important when you're if you
think suspect whatever that you might be autistic
with adhd just to make sure you're looking for
neuro affirming therapists who've done the training
because then you know or has done some training
because then you know you're not going to get
kind of a pathology yeah and even if you're not
knowingly in therapy for that reason even if
it's a bereavement therapy or absolutely it is
just the fact that they are neuro informed absolutely
you won't be asked to do or expected to do anything
or act in any certain way that that isn't you
it isn't possible for you yeah even around why
you're there I suppose yeah absolutely yeah yeah
because you know even if like you say if you're
there for a completely different reason perhaps
you're there for some some kind of trauma that
you've experienced earlier on just to have someone
who is neurofirming who is not going to sit there
and kind of assume that your I don't know your
difficulties with eye contact is because of this
trauma or you know it You need an inclusive approach
regardless of who you are or where you're coming
from. Do you know? Yeah. That's really important.
The wrong thing is not to be assumed about you.
Yes. Because I suppose if that's mentioned to
you, then, well, certainly I would start camouflaging
those things. Yeah, absolutely. Because I know
that that's not true for me. So maybe I need
to. prove that it's not true and yeah so how
unhelpful for you to to then because then then
you're not uncovering or exploring and figuring
out that part of yourself you just hide it again
yeah maybe lots of people have tried therapy
once and yeah it hasn't worked it hasn't felt
safe for them or it hasn't really they haven't
gelled or whatever term they use and maybe that's
why maybe it's because it didn't feel safe for
them because they didn't feel seen Absolutely.
Yeah, I get a lot of messages like that and a
lot of feedback from the clients that we see
is that I've been in therapy before. I've never
had therapy like this. This has really helped
me. This really supported me. And it is just
coming out from that lens of, no, you're not
abnormal. You're not, you know, you're not doing
these things because of X, Y and Z. Like, let's
explore, you know. Let's kind of accept who you
are. I'll at least explore how we figure out
a way to get to the place where you can accept
who you are. I also wonder if a huge barrier
to even seeking therapy in the first place is
because they don't think that what they're experiencing
is a big enough trauma. Yeah. You know, you spoke
right at the beginning about it doesn't have
to be a big trauma to be trauma. It can be those
people that are in the workplace experiencing.
very typical things that are finding it traumatic
won't necessarily think of going to therapy to
support themselves navigate those things because
maybe they would feel like they weren't big enough
to justify therapy but you're saying that that's
not the case no and also if i mean i'm a big
advocate obviously i'm a big advocate for therapy
Even if you don't think you've ever experienced
trauma, because you will have internalised beliefs
about things, about yourself. And so it's even
just to explore that. But yeah, if you're kind
of have gone through life and you're thinking,
well, I don't know, so -and -so next door, they
lost their parent when they were really young
or so -and -so down the road, they had really
big trauma. So mine's nothing in comparison to
them. actually, you might have experienced some
micro traumas that are stored within your body
and maybe just need entangling a little bit.
Yeah, that's so interesting, giving yourself
that permission to explore this avenue and almost
without expectation because you don't know what's
going to come out of it. It could be incredibly
helpful for you navigating the world and coming
out of burnout and feeling like you can manage
your life. I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. And also just
giving you permission to just be, I think, in
the training that I offer for therapists is like
we're taught, we're trained as therapists to
never self -disclose, you know, or be very careful
how you self -disclose and kind of like you're
a blank canvas. But for me, that's terrifying.
That does not make me feel safe if I'm just sat
opposite someone who's just staring at me like
this and nodding a little bit. That's awful.
So a big part of what I always... recommend is
to like if someone is talking about something
that they're feeling like they're really alone
about really isolated about and you relate to
it just offer that like I really relate to that
feeling that you don't have to go into anything
else if you don't feel comfortable but to hear
someone say my god I really relate to that if
you've never heard anyone experience that my
goodness like the layers of shame that can just
kind of come off of that yeah it's huge I like
it and you yeah about it then maybe it's not
shameful maybe it's absolutely maybe it's more
common than what yeah yeah yeah so people are
listening to this and you know you're speaking
to them they're lived in their lived experiences
they're thinking yep that's me that's me that's
me yep and that and that what can they do as
a first step as a first step i would always recommend
doing a bit of research and just seeing like
what do you relate to and what don't you and
and i think what's really important is whilst
when you go down that path it can be really validating
once you get a diagnosis you can also go through
a real identity crisis like oh my goodness yeah
yeah who am i like who is who what's the mask
i don't even know who i am without the master
so it's just being aware and having some support
in place even if it's not therapy maybe you can't
afford therapy or whatever wherever you're at
but having some really supportive safe people
that you can go to to say it really relate to
some of these this stuff that i've researched
can i just offload what i'm feeling about this
i think it's really important and then obviously
if you can get support extra support definitely
go and get that um that's what really great point
it is really worth saying that you know yes diagnosis
is validating in the end but it takes a long
time sometimes for that to sink in I had to pause
the process for months in between the process
yeah I felt like it was all of a sudden rush
and I wasn't ready to hear those words yeah yeah
that I'd never seen and felt about myself and
I have to let it sink in before carrying on and
that's also okay absolutely yeah that timed process
what that means for you it might then you go
back in your life and think that's what it was
that's what it was and that can be really exhausting
it can be a real shock um yeah and so just give
yourself grace in that and allow that to settle
there's no rush in this Yes, absolutely. And
also acknowledging that if you have come from
a family who have preconceived ideas about what
autism and ADHD is, then perhaps you might have
these preconceived ideas and that might be why
you want to reject it. And it's okay if you have
that response, but then it's about, okay, how
do I allow that? in how do I allow myself to
explore it a little bit I'm not so frustrated
with that either because I certainly felt that
and then I immediately felt shame because I'm
such a huge advocate for autism I love my autistic
learners I love my ADHD learners so much and
I really celebrate that but yet didn't want that
for myself I felt shame around that because then
yeah was I just this fraud or you know like you
start through help and support and time yeah
Yeah. It settles in your body and it feels okay
for you, but it's absolutely okay if you're in
that step of, I don't, it just changes all of
your identity and all of that. It's okay. And
it's scary. Yeah, it is okay. It's scary. It's
terrifying. I think, again, touching on social
media, you can actually feel like there is a
bit of a community out there that experiences
things in a similar way to what you experience
things. And I wish I'd have had that when I went
through it because it really wasn't out there
when I went through all of that process. But
now there is. So if you're feeling like really
alone and really like, oh my goodness, where
do I go? What do I do? social media following
some really you know really authentic accounts
that explore and talk about autism and adhd um
in this way can just help you feel a little less
alone absolutely i'll leave some in the comments
below actually if you uh if you want to and you
might see then reflecting back at yourself and
if you're you have others i haven't included
please include them in the comments as well below
so that yeah yeah you can see we can all find
people that reflect ourselves back at us i think
it's so important and for lots of different reasons
but this yes yeah absolutely yeah yeah it can
feel quite isolating so as long as you know there
are people out there even if they're across the
world i mean that's what social yeah it's best
isn't it absolutely yeah it's it's really valuable
i think yeah and I suppose if people are listening
to this and it's not necessarily about them but
it might be about other neurodivergent people
in their lives how can they better protect and
support those people whether they're children
or adults, I suppose. Yeah, educate, kind of
just do as much as you can in terms of learning
about what it might be like for them to experience
being autistic and ADHD and ask them. If they
know they're autistic and ADHD, they might be
really up. And actually that makes us feel seen.
If someone says to us, oh my goodness, tell me
what that's like for you. That is so healing
and feels so... validating because usually what
we're up against is oh everyone's autistic these
days or oh everybody does that and that really
shuts us down but actually for someone to say
tell me about you and your experience that's
huge even if you don't have a lot of knowledge
just asking those questions for someone can feel
really um a real strong connection yeah that
you're going to learn something and it can change
your perception and that's only makes you a better
advocate and support yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean
god wouldn't the world be such a great place
if if people were interested without expectation
like not necessarily questioning but that everybody
felt safe enough to just talk about this absolutely
yeah not being shut down or without yeah or yeah
yeah I mean that's the world I would like to
live in that's that's my little push from above
all I suppose I do protect myself from that and
sometimes it's wonderful the social media bubble
because you know it's an echo chamber of like
-minded people and sometimes i forget and i catch
myself out in the real world um and i think probably
that i don't normally hear in this safe space
yeah absolutely still got such a long way to
go whereas in this little bubble it can you can
live a full sense of security that oh everybody
yeah i mean and That's such a good point. Yeah,
when you're in this work and you're doing it
every day, you're kind of in that safe, protected,
everyone accepts it and it's really validating.
But then, yeah, suddenly you walk down the street,
you bump into someone and they make a comment
and you're like, oh, no, we're still miles away.
Yes, it bursts a bubble. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
And then you just think, oh, yeah, we have, we've
got, we have still got. a way to go it is still
worth you know talking about this is there are
so many more people out there that don't know
this stuff so yeah yeah keep being advocates
and keep learning there's so much more to them
all the time yeah i love this podcast for is
speaking to experts like yourself to kind of
yeah just to spread yeah knowledge awareness
yeah absolutely yeah oh thank you so much katie
this has been so valuable and I can already feel
that it's a podcast that I know I'm going to
share in my DMs as answers lots. You know, if
people are asking about themselves or learners
and how to support them, I think it's a really
great start to understand more about trauma and
why that comes and then how best to support those
people in our lives. I think it is the fundamentals
before you layer on anything else. I think it's
about safe space and holding that. Absolutely.
Yeah, well, thank you. Thank you for having me.
I followed you a while. I really love your content.
So yeah, really. I'm honoured. I'm honoured.
It's bringing us together. It blows my mind.
It's really exciting to me to be able to share
this. If people want to find out more about your
practice in particular, where can they go to
find out more from you? www .neurodivergenttherapyspace
.com that is where you will see our team of people
you'll get to know a little bit about our practice
and how we work and then if you want to see the
kind of the content and the stuff that i post
then it's and i get this one as well it's at
neurodivergent underscore therapy underscore
uk Thank you. All of the links are down below.
I've got social media, website, everything. So
you can find out more about Katie there. Thank
you so much for joining me today, Katie. Thank
you for having me. It's been really lovely.