WEBVTT

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Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education

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teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything

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communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson

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ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged

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4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in

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the field answering your questions and sharing

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our knowledge and experience working alongside

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our beautiful young people. Let's get started.

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Hello everybody and welcome to the Sensory Classroom

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podcast. My name is Jordan and today I'm joined

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by Milan. He came to me and wanted to talk about

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compliance -based approaches versus neuroaffirming

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approaches and it's something so close to my

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heart. I'm so excited to talk to him about that

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today. Hello Milan. Hi, thanks so much for having

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me on today. It's also a topic I'm really passionate

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about as well. And it's ever evolving as well.

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So it's every day something new comes out and

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yeah, it's crazy. I like that's what's so confusing,

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isn't it? Because it seems like even the professionals

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of speech and language therapists and occupational

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therapists and ed psychs and the government,

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you know, everybody's kind of juggling with these

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new. words and trying to get it right and maybe

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everything that we've already learned before

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is now kind of being unraveled and nobody really

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knows where to turn what's right from wrong and

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i suppose that's why i made this podcast to really

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clarify what we mean by neuroaffirming approach

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what we mean by compliance -based approach so

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that in the moment people feel kind of they've

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got a good toolkit and understanding to make

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their best judgment Definitely and kind of like

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making it as easy to implement as possible because

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I'm aware like starting again with approaches

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is a lot of work in terms of resource making

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but it's also just sort of like embedding those

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principles of neuroaffirming practice in any

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way possible and sometimes that doesn't involve

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changing really resources it can be just like

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the language and things like that that you're

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using or the strategies. And maybe it's some

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things that people are already doing without

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realising. And I think lots of people maybe are.

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Before we get into the meat of it, do you want

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to tell us a little bit more about you and what

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we do and how you work? Yes. So I'm a speech

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and language therapist. I've been in practice

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now for six years. I've always worked with paediatric.

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client groups in schools so that could be resource

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spaces mainstream i've done primary and secondary

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and the main client groups i work with are autism

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adhd you know things like dld and i'd say like

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selective mutism as well as another one so it's

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a real range and I think that's why I really

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like my job because every day is different you

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know I like changing my schools across the week

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and also just yeah going in and meeting different

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children but I've always I think for the past

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three years that's where like neuroaffirming

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practice has really like you know struck a chord

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in a sense with me because I just feel as an

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ADHD myself and also from my family experience,

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we're quite a neurodivergent family as well with

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my brother who's autistic and my sister who's

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dyslexic. I've just now started to like re -evaluate

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a lot of those things that I was taught, you

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know, at university and also in the first couple

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years of my practice. Some of which, you know,

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I kind of knew at the time, like my gut was saying

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this doesn't feel right. you know that's what's

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out there that's what you've been taught so it's

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kind of relearning all of that and and actually

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yeah i do like that you know every day you learn

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something new but actually accepting that you

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can't know everything yet either and it's always

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going to be changing you know but doing the best

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you can but yeah I'd say neurodiversity is a

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real passion of mine within both my personal

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life but also like professionally as well I can

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see that it's funny so many people come into

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this career either they come into it and then

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they realize about their own neurodivergence

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and their family's neurodivergence or they know

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about their neurodivergence their family's neurodivergence

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and then a passion about the career it kind of

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is either or isn't it um oh how do you start

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let's go into first of all what we mean by compliance

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-based practice i love it when you said in your

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podcast write up that and we do to like apply

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to be on this podcast and i just want to read

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that out for everybody because i just think you

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said it so well you said compliance -based approaches

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that are often implemented in schools they may

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often be sold as neuroaffirming but beneath the

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surface their core aims are deficit focused and

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compliance -based so what do you mean by compliance

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-based what are you meaning when you say that

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term Compliance, I guess it's like when you're

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trying to make everybody do sort of the same

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thing even if maybe like your brain works differently.

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So it's kind of like trying to, you know, aim

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for everybody to, you know, come out with like

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neurotypical ways of attending to activities,

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neurotypical ways of, you know, making friends

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or socialising, learning. I think a lot of schools

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and just life in general workplaces have been

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set up with neurotypical brains in mind so it's

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kind of like compliance would be kind of people

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just following suit really and not really advocating

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for those differences. and i think what's interesting

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about compliance is you know a child might be

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you know sat still might look calm might look

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regulated but under that you know you might have

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a child who's really like masking and you know

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then letting it out maybe at the end of the day

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so what might look like you know the child is

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doing something and that's often for like survival

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versus like underneath that you know there's

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a lot going on mainstream teachers or lots of

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mainstream parents will be absolutely nodding

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at that yeah yeah i had a look at it online of

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what the like some examples are and that is it's

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exactly what you've said it's standardization

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of one size fits all approach to teaching or

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assessment even um also in extrinsic motivation

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so students are motivated by uh rewards or grades

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or avoiding penalties or avoiding, you know,

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being on the traffic light, avoiding being removed,

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I suppose, rather than intrinsic curiosity and

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an intrinsic want to be there and intrinsic engagement

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and want to learn, I suppose. Passive learning

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as well. to be passive receivers of information,

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just listening and complying with instructions

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rather than actually being actively involved,

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which I mean, for all learners, I would say is

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an ideal, but especially for our neurodivergent

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learners, they kind of need to be in the action

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for the most part. And then I suppose systemic

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pressure as well arises from pressures on educators

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to teach to the test or teach to the outcome,

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teach to meeting the IEP, meeting the EHCP rather

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than actually in the moment what that child wants

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to learn or needs to learn for them. You know,

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are we starting with writing on paper because

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that's what the outcome says? You know, maybe

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that's not the child's main need or one of. receiving

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or giving information maybe it's not written

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maybe it's a different way or something else

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so yeah and that's a really good point about

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the curriculum yeah because you know it often

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doesn't always relate to that child's interests

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and maybe they could show an outcome through

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that interest but then when it's not related

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to their interest it might look like they don't

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have the skill but Actually, it's just maybe

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it's not been tailored. Yeah, it is all come

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from that systemic pressure as well and how a

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curriculum should look. So what we've said sounds

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very mainstream, but I know it happens in special

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education too. So it might be having a one communication

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approach. I went into a school this month and

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they were doing beautiful signing, beautiful

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Makaton signing. The teacher was modelling it

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incredibly well and was obviously very... talented

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in signing but two of the learners in the class

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had AAC devices and these weren't modelled at

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all and then I also noticed on the wall that

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there were some core boards that also weren't

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being used and modelled at all so even in special

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education we can have a standardisation. which

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doesn't fit all approach rather than a neuroaffirming

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one, which affirms and includes and celebrates

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all ways of communicating or all ways of learning.

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That's a really good point about how it's often

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biased towards certain communication preferences,

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such as like the spoken word, as opposed to like,

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yeah, paper -based or electronic AAC as well,

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which would help, you know, everybody access

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that learning in their own way as well. Yeah.

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So that's compliance -based. I feel like we've

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got a good handle on that. So it's the standardization.

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It's a one -size -fits -all approach. What about

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neuroaffirming? What do we mean by that? So that

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would be more about sort of like taking a strengths

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-based approach and actually, you know, looking

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at more at the child's interests, following their

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lead. it would be about honoring different ways

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of communicating a bit like what you've picked

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up on earlier and around like you know different

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ways of getting their message across whether

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that's through AAC or mouth words with honoring

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all of those communication preferences but also

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like someone's preferred style of communication

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as well so it might be that you know ADHD is

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often due to like things like impulse control

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may jump in a conversation but it's not something

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that can be controlled you know like it's just

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part of their communication style you know they

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feel that often that thought may disappear in

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their brain if you know they don't say it right

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then so it's not like I want to jump in and take

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over it's more like i will forget what i've said

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if i don't let this out and same in the way quite

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often autistic children may be labeled like things

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like rude when actually you know they are just

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more direct and like they mean what they say

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you know so it's kind of like it's and we can

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come on to it a bit later but it's also considering

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that double empathy problem you know if you've

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got differences in your behavior and communication

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as part of your neurotype then of course if you're

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put with someone with a different neurotype you're

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not going to understand each other and I think

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that's a really nice part of neuro affirming

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practice is the double empathy problem that's

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one that I always have in the back of my head

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when just you know supporting children in schools

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and a really key one as well I feel is you know

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validating lived experience we have such lovely

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examples nowadays from neurodivergent voices

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that are saying that a lot of these compliance

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-based tools have not been helpful you know like

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they had learned to suppress certain things like

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stimming and their echolalia they might have

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been you know told to play with other people

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when actually their play preference was solitary

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and that's okay you know we don't all want to

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just go and play with people so i think that's

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another key part is that we really have access

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to lived experience now and neurodivergent voices

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whether that's through books or social media

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for me has been a real big learning um i guess

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tool for my practice but also just um for my

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own brain as well you know and i think also within

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that is thinking about things like you know intersectionality

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as well So thinking about other minority identities

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within neurodivergence. So it could be like race.

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It could be thinking about gender identity. It

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could be sexual orientation. All those different

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intersectionalities, I think, is a key part as

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well to it. Yeah, it's valuing difference, isn't

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it? It's recognising that different brain developments

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and functions are natural variation and not broken

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or disordered to not have an ableist approach.

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to what the goal is. Like the goal isn't mouth

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words or the goal isn't sitting and listening

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and stillness to learn. The goal isn't writing

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with a pen on paper. I suppose it's unpicking

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that ableist attitude, isn't it? Of what learning,

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education, communication, sensory regulation

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looks like and celebrating what it looks like

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in our learners and dropping off a bat. yes because

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like if we are using more of those compliance

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based tools where we are saying exactly that

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aren't we that you know your way of communicating

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is wrong or paying attention yes and you need

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to do it in this way when actually that's not

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honoring the like preferences yeah and we're

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working then against the brain not with it I

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always think that's quite a key thing to think

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about is yeah Yeah, it's something that I often

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fall back on accidentally. It's almost like a

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muscle that has to constantly be reminded and

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exercised of the goal, the ultimate goal not

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being mouth words or the ultimate goal not being

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stillness. Like something I always have to try

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and remind myself. I suppose the ultimate goal

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not being social is, I suppose it's moving away

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from fixing. That's what it is. It's 100%. It's

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rejecting the goal of making neurodivergent people

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appear neurotypical or normal. Yeah, definitely.

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Yeah, exactly. Instead providing support that

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fosters themselves, you know. 100%. And that

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kind of fits in that kind of move away from the

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medical model, doesn't it, where all that onus

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was on the neurodivergent. person as opposed

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to like looking at those adjustments around the

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child um as known as the social model yeah yeah

00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:59.919
absolutely so you mentioned in the beginning

00:14:59.919 --> 00:15:04.019
that in the first half of your career you were

00:15:04.019 --> 00:15:07.940
using compliance -based approaches so i suppose

00:15:07.940 --> 00:15:11.059
what did that look like so that people kind of

00:15:11.059 --> 00:15:13.980
understand what it is you were using and then

00:15:13.980 --> 00:15:16.600
we can go on to what it looks like in the most

00:15:16.600 --> 00:15:20.279
recent three years Yes yes so it kind of all

00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:24.360
started at uni in terms of like I guess being

00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:27.720
taught all around like compliant based tools

00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:33.100
so one example was how we can sort of ensure

00:15:33.100 --> 00:15:37.139
neurodivergent people can you know listen in

00:15:37.139 --> 00:15:39.860
a specific certain way so it was kind of looking

00:15:39.860 --> 00:15:44.200
at um whole body listening so can that you know

00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:47.980
child um or young person you know sit at a table

00:15:47.980 --> 00:15:51.519
keep their hands still you know don't talk when

00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:55.039
anyone else is talking you know um don't move

00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:59.139
around and look at the speaker you know so i

00:15:59.139 --> 00:16:01.340
quite often might have had like a whole body

00:16:01.340 --> 00:16:03.820
listening poster within a session or i might

00:16:03.820 --> 00:16:06.940
have um kind of recommended that to be put on

00:16:06.940 --> 00:16:11.389
the wall in the classroom um i kind of deep down

00:16:11.389 --> 00:16:14.049
knew that you know because in the session i'd

00:16:14.049 --> 00:16:17.269
be ticking off okay they looked at me they they

00:16:17.269 --> 00:16:20.129
kept their hands still they you know their legs

00:16:20.129 --> 00:16:22.769
were still i was like this doesn't feel right

00:16:22.769 --> 00:16:25.230
my gut saying it but then i've been taught that

00:16:25.230 --> 00:16:27.409
this is the right way of doing it so i'm going

00:16:27.409 --> 00:16:30.539
to keep doing it And I always used to adapt it

00:16:30.539 --> 00:16:32.820
anyway a little bit where like, you know, you

00:16:32.820 --> 00:16:35.600
get, it was very rewards based. Like if you ticked

00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:38.000
all of those different, I guess, behaviours,

00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:40.399
you would get a sticker. But if a child didn't,

00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:42.740
I was like, I've not got it in me to not give

00:16:42.740 --> 00:16:45.720
you a sticker. So I knew that like this doesn't

00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:51.220
feel right. And then I think other kind of tools

00:16:51.220 --> 00:16:53.600
as well that I was kind of using in the past

00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:57.440
were things like communication systems. I was

00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:00.679
taught at uni you know that particular communication

00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:03.860
systems that only work on things like requesting

00:17:03.860 --> 00:17:08.380
would be best and so very quite restricted and

00:17:08.380 --> 00:17:10.940
they didn't have the opportunity to use core

00:17:10.940 --> 00:17:14.920
vocabulary you know things like those functional

00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:17.799
high frequency words that the child might need.

00:17:18.269 --> 00:17:20.670
Or the fringe vocabulary, you know, things like

00:17:20.670 --> 00:17:23.329
linked to their activities. Or just commenting

00:17:23.329 --> 00:17:25.190
on something. That's one thing I've noticed.

00:17:25.289 --> 00:17:30.809
It was often I want, I see, I need. But it wasn't

00:17:30.809 --> 00:17:35.109
as much of that's funny. I like it. You know,

00:17:35.130 --> 00:17:37.630
those kind of comments, which is so much. And

00:17:37.630 --> 00:17:41.269
refusal as well. Refusal is a really good one.

00:17:41.990 --> 00:17:45.690
No, I don't want it. I don't like it. Go away.

00:17:45.710 --> 00:17:49.589
All of those things. survival phrases in a sense

00:17:49.589 --> 00:17:52.190
that someone else had said you need you know

00:17:52.190 --> 00:17:55.670
like like you were saying like I see I want you

00:17:55.670 --> 00:18:00.150
know and that just also didn't really result

00:18:00.150 --> 00:18:02.950
in any kind of generalization then because it

00:18:02.950 --> 00:18:05.990
was just so restrictive and you know we need

00:18:05.990 --> 00:18:09.329
to be looking at as well literacy as well that

00:18:09.329 --> 00:18:12.970
doesn't also allow you to access literacy through

00:18:12.970 --> 00:18:15.230
like the alphabet you know whereas having maybe

00:18:15.230 --> 00:18:19.430
a a communication book or a device um will allow

00:18:19.430 --> 00:18:23.170
you to kind of build on your literacy but also

00:18:23.170 --> 00:18:25.990
be creative you know like we were really restricting

00:18:25.990 --> 00:18:28.450
what that child might have wanted to get across

00:18:28.450 --> 00:18:33.329
in their own way confusing because i have seen

00:18:33.329 --> 00:18:37.490
in my in the 10 first 10 years of my career these

00:18:37.490 --> 00:18:39.769
systems these compliance -based systems that

00:18:39.769 --> 00:18:43.339
we're telling people now not to use Giving learners

00:18:43.339 --> 00:18:47.099
a voice, supporting them to regulate and feel

00:18:47.099 --> 00:18:49.299
heard and understood for the first time in their

00:18:49.299 --> 00:18:52.900
life, to be able to request food and snacks and

00:18:52.900 --> 00:18:57.640
to follow a schedule and to do their work and

00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:00.279
all of those things, which is then really hard

00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:05.000
to say, yeah, it works, but is it actually the

00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:08.259
best way? Yes, it's evidence -based because it

00:19:08.259 --> 00:19:11.750
works. But is it the kindest way? And I guess

00:19:11.750 --> 00:19:13.509
that comes back to what you said about listening

00:19:13.509 --> 00:19:16.650
to autistic voices. The autistic voices that

00:19:16.650 --> 00:19:19.990
I'm listening to are saying, yes, it works, but

00:19:19.990 --> 00:19:22.849
to the detriment of my mental health. Exactly

00:19:22.849 --> 00:19:26.250
that. To the detriment of my body autonomy. Definitely.

00:19:26.869 --> 00:19:30.369
And there's some quite, you know, distressing

00:19:30.369 --> 00:19:33.730
kind of, I guess, responses to things like, yeah,

00:19:33.829 --> 00:19:37.970
more behavior based. compliance based approaches

00:19:37.970 --> 00:19:41.529
isn't there now and you know that alone is enough

00:19:41.529 --> 00:19:44.890
to think that definitely needs like adaptation

00:19:44.890 --> 00:19:48.089
you know it was i guess it's more that like long

00:19:48.089 --> 00:19:50.950
-term effect of these like i know studies will

00:19:50.950 --> 00:19:54.670
say oh in the short term they um you know maybe

00:19:54.670 --> 00:19:57.769
achieve those goals but yeah at the detriment

00:19:57.769 --> 00:20:01.309
of their own like mental health And I've seen

00:20:01.309 --> 00:20:03.769
it in some of my learners who have gone on to

00:20:03.769 --> 00:20:06.930
use high -tech AAC, so a way more robust communication

00:20:06.930 --> 00:20:11.970
system that has lots of words and can say thousands

00:20:11.970 --> 00:20:13.670
and thousands of things that they will want to

00:20:13.670 --> 00:20:16.269
say, including refusal and all of those things

00:20:16.269 --> 00:20:18.369
that we've said about. But because they've come

00:20:18.369 --> 00:20:20.710
from a compliance -based approach in their early

00:20:20.710 --> 00:20:23.589
years, they are putting their own restrictions

00:20:23.589 --> 00:20:26.730
on this very robust device. They're on that time

00:20:26.730 --> 00:20:30.309
naturally. or they're only using the I want sentences

00:20:30.309 --> 00:20:32.470
because that's how they have learned to communicate

00:20:32.470 --> 00:20:35.289
with the world. Yes, that's a really good point.

00:20:35.430 --> 00:20:38.450
And it's really hard to undo that. Yeah. It's

00:20:38.450 --> 00:20:40.369
far more than just start with the, you know,

00:20:40.390 --> 00:20:44.650
robust system. Yes, no, 100%. I've noticed that

00:20:44.650 --> 00:20:48.309
as well with things like, you know, GLP children

00:20:48.309 --> 00:20:52.170
as well, where maybe they've learned those kind

00:20:52.170 --> 00:20:55.349
of like, I guess, comments through sentence strips.

00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:58.279
and then it's meant that they're always waiting

00:20:58.279 --> 00:21:00.579
for the adult to give a bit of a cue like an

00:21:00.579 --> 00:21:03.440
auditory maybe visual or a verbal cue really

00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:07.480
until they yes start that conversation so you

00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:09.960
can see that they've become a bit stuck with

00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:12.940
their language yes so i think it's interesting

00:21:12.940 --> 00:21:15.180
isn't it it's definitely something that i've

00:21:15.180 --> 00:21:17.920
been trying to unpick over the last couple of

00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:21.099
years is my learners not being so prompt dependent

00:21:21.099 --> 00:21:23.940
because we're so quick to jump in and help them

00:21:23.940 --> 00:21:27.480
we don't want to see them fail however we are

00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:29.740
then not providing them the opportunity to be

00:21:29.740 --> 00:21:33.039
independent thinkers or learners and even I was

00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:35.000
noticing that even when my learners knew exactly

00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:38.319
what to do it was part of their redid learned

00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:41.640
pattern For the adult to come, the adult tells

00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:43.519
me to get my coat and then I get my coat and

00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:45.480
then I go outside, even though they perfectly

00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:49.359
knew how, where and when to do those things.

00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:52.799
So what we were doing was we were kind of embedding

00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:58.000
the philosophy of you need adults. You need rigidity.

00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:02.720
You cannot think for yourself. you know led to

00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:05.259
still the same outcome of them putting on their

00:22:05.259 --> 00:22:07.220
coat and going outside but actually what do we

00:22:07.220 --> 00:22:10.180
want for our learners we want adults to be as

00:22:10.180 --> 00:22:12.259
independent as possible whatever that looks like

00:22:12.259 --> 00:22:14.980
for any learner to be free thinkers to read the

00:22:14.980 --> 00:22:16.980
room to look around them in their environment

00:22:16.980 --> 00:22:19.359
and to make a best judgment for themselves and

00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:21.740
their bodies not just because the timetable tells

00:22:21.740 --> 00:22:23.539
them to do something or because a now net tells

00:22:23.539 --> 00:22:25.839
them to do something because so often with our

00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:30.759
your autistic brains we we um maybe don't have

00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:32.960
the social imagination to imagine outside of

00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:34.980
what we're being shown so if we're being shown

00:22:34.980 --> 00:22:36.859
in our next or being shown a visual timetable

00:22:36.859 --> 00:22:39.000
we might not think that there's any other option

00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:42.700
um than those two things whereas actually maybe

00:22:42.700 --> 00:22:44.799
a more near affirming approach even though space

00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:46.779
can be really supportive maybe used in a different

00:22:46.779 --> 00:22:51.279
way can be more um collaborative choice boards

00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:55.039
and giving us those more options knowing them

00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:58.380
really intrinsically well to know to pause and

00:22:58.380 --> 00:23:00.759
wait for them to make the decision see what they

00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:03.920
go to and gravitate towards can be much more

00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:07.539
affirming because you're listening to then they

00:23:07.539 --> 00:23:09.359
can learn to listen to what their body needs

00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:11.299
maybe their body doesn't want to wear a coat

00:23:11.299 --> 00:23:14.880
need to go outside or any of those things yeah

00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:17.539
and then they're much more like regulated aren't

00:23:17.539 --> 00:23:19.900
they and that's more likely to then stick yeah

00:23:19.900 --> 00:23:23.740
and then yeah i guess um another one that i kind

00:23:23.740 --> 00:23:27.039
of used quite a lot was using you know i guess

00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:30.779
color systems for like sharing emotions and regulating

00:23:30.779 --> 00:23:33.789
and that's something over the years the more

00:23:33.789 --> 00:23:36.549
i've got to know children that it isn't always

00:23:36.549 --> 00:23:39.430
appropriate you know like for some children they

00:23:39.430 --> 00:23:41.970
might always opt for a certain color because

00:23:41.970 --> 00:23:45.869
that's gonna maybe please the adult or it feels

00:23:45.869 --> 00:23:48.529
good they want to get the right answer get the

00:23:48.529 --> 00:23:52.650
right answer the right answer yes so it's kind

00:23:52.650 --> 00:23:55.390
of like it ends up teaching that you know certain

00:23:55.390 --> 00:23:58.779
emotions like happy are the gold standard whereas

00:23:58.779 --> 00:24:01.099
those kind of i guess in inverted commons more

00:24:01.099 --> 00:24:05.039
negative emotions like you know angry sad even

00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:09.299
tired you know they are then sort of like less

00:24:09.299 --> 00:24:12.420
likely to be chosen so i think yeah that's got

00:24:12.420 --> 00:24:16.240
me thinking and especially those like autistic

00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:19.700
or you know neurodivergent children who have

00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:22.660
alexithymia as well where it becomes really tricky

00:24:22.660 --> 00:24:25.559
to recognize you know what's going on in their

00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:28.660
bodies and in terms of like reading those body

00:24:28.660 --> 00:24:33.019
signals so it's really hard them using color

00:24:33.019 --> 00:24:36.319
systems because they're not gonna then know you

00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:39.460
know attach that to a color to then know what

00:24:39.460 --> 00:24:41.839
i also found is you can feel more than one thing

00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:45.460
at once like i can be tired and excited at the

00:24:45.460 --> 00:24:50.559
same time so in a neurodivergent brain It doesn't

00:24:50.559 --> 00:24:52.839
make sense. Like, how do I just pick one when

00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:54.960
I'm feeling two or three things at once, which

00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:58.880
span the colors? It isn't as simple as that.

00:24:58.980 --> 00:25:02.140
It would be lovely if it was, because what a

00:25:02.140 --> 00:25:04.960
lovely system to be able to teach that with.

00:25:05.220 --> 00:25:07.519
But actually, that's not really how it feels

00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:10.859
in our bodies, not always. So, yeah, that's something

00:25:10.859 --> 00:25:14.240
I noticed as well. I dabbled with that for, yeah,

00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:16.599
maybe six months. And it was great for adult

00:25:16.599 --> 00:25:20.690
modeling and adult. no naming and showing but

00:25:20.690 --> 00:25:23.369
my learners yeah they just seem to gravitate

00:25:23.369 --> 00:25:25.609
towards green even though we were very much everything

00:25:25.609 --> 00:25:28.049
is except what it seems to be like they've all

00:25:28.049 --> 00:25:31.049
they'd already learned this world knowledge that

00:25:31.049 --> 00:25:35.289
that green is good still is good happy is good

00:25:35.289 --> 00:25:39.109
yeah and it might then mean they've kind of you

00:25:39.109 --> 00:25:41.670
know shifted from one emotion to another even

00:25:41.670 --> 00:25:44.170
when it wasn't the right time or like adaptive

00:25:44.170 --> 00:25:48.369
to do that so it's appropriate to be angry or

00:25:48.369 --> 00:25:52.069
highly excitable or tired or slow or you know

00:25:52.069 --> 00:25:55.529
yeah and it's so i guess in all of this with

00:25:55.529 --> 00:25:58.269
all of these strategies there are neuroaffirming

00:25:58.269 --> 00:26:01.470
ways of using them too i mean i did a quite controversial

00:26:01.470 --> 00:26:04.750
post i suppose using a pex book and saying you

00:26:04.750 --> 00:26:07.670
can still use the actual resource you just don't

00:26:07.670 --> 00:26:10.890
use it in using the pex based compliance based

00:26:10.890 --> 00:26:15.029
system You can still use now and next if you're

00:26:15.029 --> 00:26:18.230
in collaboration with the child, if it's not

00:26:18.230 --> 00:26:21.210
rewards focused, but if it's literally just showing

00:26:21.210 --> 00:26:24.309
them what's next to help them to know it's this

00:26:24.309 --> 00:26:26.809
first, then this, you know, if it's, if it's,

00:26:26.809 --> 00:26:30.329
yeah, collaboration based, it feels very different

00:26:30.329 --> 00:26:34.660
than. so i guess and scheduled timetables or

00:26:34.660 --> 00:26:36.880
individual timetables i'm a huge advocate individual

00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:39.359
timetables it gives children a lot of independence

00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:42.220
with transitioning and a lot of low anxiety when

00:26:42.220 --> 00:26:44.759
knowing things are coming up so that visual schedule

00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:47.380
is incredibly important but how are we using

00:26:47.380 --> 00:26:49.180
it how are we modeling it how are we putting

00:26:49.180 --> 00:26:51.140
it across the children that's where it comes

00:26:51.140 --> 00:26:54.500
so i don't feel like it's any one system it's

00:26:54.500 --> 00:26:56.720
how we're using the system how we're using it

00:26:56.720 --> 00:26:59.279
yeah because there's some sort of there's attention

00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:02.720
programs out there you know that are used in

00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:05.359
quite compliance ways you know it might be like

00:27:05.359 --> 00:27:09.059
again looking at the sitting the you know no

00:27:09.059 --> 00:27:12.160
moving around the room no touching that kind

00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:15.380
of thing but if that was kind of adapted you

00:27:15.380 --> 00:27:17.759
know to allow for things like touching because

00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:20.779
for a lot of kids you know that is allowing them

00:27:20.779 --> 00:27:25.039
to express the yeah body signals their sensory

00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:28.059
needs you know we can learn a lot by being able

00:27:28.059 --> 00:27:31.160
to touch an object you know it's very much about

00:27:31.160 --> 00:27:34.960
that multi -sensory learning um and much better

00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:37.420
when it's kind of like you know having that shared

00:27:37.420 --> 00:27:41.920
experience with each child my thought was i've

00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:44.519
tried so hard i've had to work so hard to get

00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:46.279
your attention engagement in the first place

00:27:46.279 --> 00:27:49.500
to get you to want to come over to then ask like

00:27:49.500 --> 00:27:52.339
to then put a barrier in front of that of just

00:27:52.339 --> 00:27:56.960
felt so anti -climactic for them but also just

00:27:56.960 --> 00:27:59.660
so like it just felt like it was going against

00:27:59.660 --> 00:28:02.059
everything that i just tried to do like i was

00:28:02.059 --> 00:28:05.180
working so hard to make it so visual so fun i

00:28:05.180 --> 00:28:06.759
bought loads of resources i've made all this

00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:08.240
stuff and then they come over and i'm like oh

00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:12.759
no but you can't touch it and it's like such

00:28:12.759 --> 00:28:15.579
a great opportunity to like model that language

00:28:15.579 --> 00:28:18.200
isn't it whilst they're playing and getting that

00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:20.960
sensory input from things like yeah water or

00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:24.039
different sensory materials and yeah i think

00:28:24.039 --> 00:28:27.099
that's the thing it kind of becomes more about

00:28:27.099 --> 00:28:29.880
them like you know following those neurotypical

00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:33.460
norms when actually we could get a lot more with

00:28:33.460 --> 00:28:36.700
kind of obviously some structure i do believe

00:28:36.700 --> 00:28:40.119
they we need to support that for regulation but

00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:42.700
just more flexibility throughout the session

00:28:42.700 --> 00:28:46.420
just it makes it sort of more fun i feel as well

00:28:46.420 --> 00:28:51.299
um yeah and i'm i'm noticing that so many people

00:28:51.299 --> 00:28:54.119
aren't saying they're using all these systems

00:28:54.119 --> 00:28:57.079
that you've mentioned that you've described but

00:28:57.079 --> 00:29:00.700
are doing those changes they are adapting to

00:29:00.700 --> 00:29:03.539
the tools and they are changing those learned

00:29:03.539 --> 00:29:06.490
models that they had in training to their class.

00:29:06.589 --> 00:29:08.190
And that is the right thing to do. That's what

00:29:08.190 --> 00:29:11.170
we're saying. We're saying, you know, take the

00:29:11.170 --> 00:29:14.170
idea of communication and using visuals, but

00:29:14.170 --> 00:29:16.630
adapt it to what your child needs in that moment.

00:29:16.890 --> 00:29:19.970
Work with them, not, you know, against them.

00:29:20.150 --> 00:29:22.670
If it feels like a battle, then it's probably

00:29:22.670 --> 00:29:25.009
compliance -based. It's not neuro -affirming.

00:29:25.410 --> 00:29:29.230
If it feels like the children are happily and

00:29:29.230 --> 00:29:33.400
readily accepting and wanting to do it. It's

00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:37.559
probably neuroaffirming. If I get a niggle in

00:29:37.559 --> 00:29:40.839
my gut that tells me, well, this, you know, teach

00:29:40.839 --> 00:29:43.299
workstations is a classic example, actually,

00:29:43.519 --> 00:29:45.460
where we're using workstations in my class. And

00:29:45.460 --> 00:29:47.900
for some of my learners, they chose to do it

00:29:47.900 --> 00:29:50.079
first thing in the morning because they wanted

00:29:50.079 --> 00:29:51.960
that. They obviously found it very regulating.

00:29:52.299 --> 00:29:54.539
They liked the system of left to right, and that

00:29:54.539 --> 00:29:56.960
was good for them. Whereas some of my learners

00:29:56.960 --> 00:29:59.759
needed so much convincing to go to the workstation.

00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:01.740
It was highly triggering and dysregulating for

00:30:01.740 --> 00:30:04.750
them. All of a sudden, then that obviously wasn't

00:30:04.750 --> 00:30:06.829
right for that learner. Then you make a change.

00:30:07.329 --> 00:30:10.150
So I guess it's about taking the idea of the

00:30:10.150 --> 00:30:15.190
system, experimenting with it and working with

00:30:15.190 --> 00:30:19.289
your child, not against them. We find something

00:30:19.289 --> 00:30:21.910
that feels good for both of you. It's something

00:30:21.910 --> 00:30:24.490
that helps them learn to feel heard and validated

00:30:24.490 --> 00:30:28.049
and ultimately celebrates how they learn, how

00:30:28.049 --> 00:30:32.190
they play, how they speak. 100 % and I feel like

00:30:32.190 --> 00:30:34.750
you know I think you mentioned it earlier where

00:30:34.750 --> 00:30:38.630
like having that option to say no or you know

00:30:38.630 --> 00:30:42.289
leave the the activity and have a way out is

00:30:42.289 --> 00:30:44.609
always helpful through you know like things like

00:30:44.609 --> 00:30:47.849
paper -based or whatever way works for the child

00:30:47.849 --> 00:30:51.650
and just respecting that yeah agency it's a great

00:30:51.650 --> 00:30:54.269
skill isn't it being able to say no and kind

00:30:54.269 --> 00:30:57.480
of links to and it doesn't mean that The no is

00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:00.119
always honored because sometimes it's not safe.

00:31:00.579 --> 00:31:02.660
So sometimes they don't want to hold your hand.

00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:04.940
And of course, it's not safe to do that. But

00:31:04.940 --> 00:31:06.440
it doesn't mean that they don't have the opportunity

00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:10.140
to communicate no. No. Or heard or believed that

00:31:10.140 --> 00:31:13.160
they want a no. But then you have, you know,

00:31:13.180 --> 00:31:15.519
you have to hold their hand. So we're not saying

00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:18.799
this whimsy fairy tale. Oh, yeah, just let them

00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:20.460
do what they want. That is not what we're saying.

00:31:20.740 --> 00:31:22.680
But we're saying to give them the opportunities

00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:26.019
to at least be heard. You know, almost like.

00:31:26.509 --> 00:31:29.970
If they had the symbol that says, no, don't touch,

00:31:30.269 --> 00:31:33.789
not yet, all those kind of things. And we are

00:31:33.789 --> 00:31:35.730
showing them that we believe them, that that's

00:31:35.730 --> 00:31:38.529
important, that we're validating that. Then I

00:31:38.529 --> 00:31:40.730
think I still feel like that's one step further.

00:31:40.890 --> 00:31:44.529
That's one step closer to holding that relationship

00:31:44.529 --> 00:31:47.390
and keeping that trust that at least they feel

00:31:47.390 --> 00:31:49.869
believed. I think that's part of it. Definitely.

00:31:49.910 --> 00:31:53.230
I think the validation is so important and that

00:31:53.230 --> 00:31:57.599
can be across any access. as well. I've seen

00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:01.119
that with, you know, things like when you look

00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:03.539
into things like what a big or a smaller problem

00:32:03.539 --> 00:32:07.039
is to somebody and just honoring that a small

00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:09.859
problem to someone might be a big problem. And,

00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:12.519
you know, just hearing them out on that, you

00:32:12.519 --> 00:32:15.700
know, like maybe their favorite crayon is broken

00:32:15.700 --> 00:32:18.579
and it's like, I can see that, you know, your

00:32:18.579 --> 00:32:21.759
favorite crayon is broken. That's so frustrating,

00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:24.799
you know, just. validating and offering that

00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:27.900
maybe the sensory support i think that's a really

00:32:27.900 --> 00:32:33.160
good point like validation is key yeah i did

00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:36.000
notice that as soon as my learners had the high

00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.099
-tech aac devices and that we were modeling to

00:32:38.099 --> 00:32:41.920
them like when they were in crisis we were saying

00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:46.019
like sad sad like don't like and things like

00:32:46.019 --> 00:32:49.039
that And yes, that didn't fix the problem. It

00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:51.339
didn't fix what they were sad about. But just

00:32:51.339 --> 00:32:54.559
the fact that they felt heard and seen, it did

00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:57.380
start to regulate them. It did start like they

00:32:57.380 --> 00:33:01.019
felt like they get it. I don't need to show them

00:33:01.019 --> 00:33:03.759
with my body that I'm hurt and frustrated. They

00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:07.359
already know. They know. And we really saw a

00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:09.940
reduction in crisis behaviors and hurting behaviors.

00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:12.160
And instead, they were coming to us with their

00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:13.700
ASC because they knew that's a communication

00:33:13.700 --> 00:33:16.099
tool that both of us could. relate to and understand

00:33:16.099 --> 00:33:19.539
and work through it together and again that's

00:33:19.539 --> 00:33:21.440
that neuroaffirming approach isn't it it was

00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:23.759
us rather than us sticking to our guns and saying

00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:26.500
well they can't have it you know and well they

00:33:26.500 --> 00:33:28.460
have to do it actually how can we adapt this

00:33:28.460 --> 00:33:30.279
activity to make it achievable in this moment

00:33:30.279 --> 00:33:32.059
because it's clearly even though it was achievable

00:33:32.059 --> 00:33:34.859
yesterday or five minutes ago it clearly isn't

00:33:34.859 --> 00:33:37.099
achievable now how can we adapt to them because

00:33:37.099 --> 00:33:38.579
otherwise we're just going to break down that

00:33:38.579 --> 00:33:41.880
trust yeah that was one of the all of this conversation

00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:45.289
actually is is how rise therapy came about I

00:33:45.289 --> 00:33:48.569
was finding myself naturally adapting all these

00:33:48.569 --> 00:33:52.569
systems and thinking, why? Why doesn't this feel

00:33:52.569 --> 00:33:54.809
good for me in my class? Why does this feel like

00:33:54.809 --> 00:33:57.210
a backward step for us? Why does this feel like

00:33:57.210 --> 00:33:59.509
it's breaking down our relationship? It just

00:33:59.509 --> 00:34:02.980
doesn't feel new or affirming. it doesn't feel

00:34:02.980 --> 00:34:05.000
like i'm accepting all of the ways that they

00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:08.159
naturally play naturally explore the world naturally

00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:10.320
learn naturally communicate and i want to celebrate

00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:12.980
those how can we do that um and that was the

00:34:12.980 --> 00:34:15.659
basis of rise therapy which i know that you've

00:34:15.659 --> 00:34:17.239
been using as well do you want to tell us a little

00:34:17.239 --> 00:34:20.119
bit more about how you kind of found that and

00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:22.900
how you've been finding embedding that in some

00:34:22.900 --> 00:34:25.820
of your practice yeah so i kind of started off

00:34:25.820 --> 00:34:29.079
by yeah just sort of like doing a bit more research

00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:32.670
watching your like in Instagram clips with the

00:34:32.670 --> 00:34:36.929
demos and, you know, looking at kind of what

00:34:36.929 --> 00:34:41.690
approaches can we sort of use as a way of, I

00:34:41.690 --> 00:34:44.829
guess, supporting regulation, having more of

00:34:44.829 --> 00:34:50.110
a shared experience, you know, and looking at

00:34:50.110 --> 00:34:54.190
that as an alternative to sort of more, I guess,

00:34:54.289 --> 00:34:57.230
interventions that aim to develop neurotypical

00:34:57.230 --> 00:35:00.030
attention styles, for instance. So that's how

00:35:00.030 --> 00:35:02.969
I... i first kind of came across it was i was

00:35:02.969 --> 00:35:05.469
doing a bit of research to think i think we could

00:35:05.469 --> 00:35:09.949
do some tweak into what we already have but what

00:35:09.949 --> 00:35:12.210
might this look like i think i knew the staff

00:35:12.210 --> 00:35:15.550
will want structure as well so it felt like the

00:35:15.550 --> 00:35:19.630
perfect sort of intervention and how i started

00:35:19.630 --> 00:35:22.670
was just to try and like you know train staff

00:35:22.670 --> 00:35:25.989
on what some of those compliance -based principles

00:35:25.989 --> 00:35:29.639
are that are linked to the approach they're currently

00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:33.940
using then starting to introduce more neuro affirming

00:35:33.940 --> 00:35:39.159
um principles and then i knew because like it's

00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:41.980
all good and well saying you know this approach

00:35:41.980 --> 00:35:45.320
is client space these are the principles but

00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:47.940
then it's that what might that then look like

00:35:47.940 --> 00:35:50.619
have you got any examples as well you know i

00:35:50.619 --> 00:35:53.139
think it is good to have something up your sleeve

00:35:53.139 --> 00:35:56.679
you know just because some of these Traditional

00:35:56.679 --> 00:36:00.579
approaches are so integrated in schools and you

00:36:00.579 --> 00:36:03.739
know across the borough I work in so I knew that

00:36:03.739 --> 00:36:06.239
would be a big battle to come in and say look

00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:09.320
and I wasn't saying that all the principles to

00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:13.199
that approach were, you know, non -neurothermic.

00:36:13.260 --> 00:36:15.420
There was lots of great, I guess, principles

00:36:15.420 --> 00:36:18.139
within it, especially like the sensory learning

00:36:18.139 --> 00:36:20.639
and things like that. And then it was just about

00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:23.960
like, how can I support the staff to set up Rise

00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:28.360
in school? And that was agreeing core words.

00:36:28.460 --> 00:36:32.260
So we thought about things, you know, things

00:36:32.260 --> 00:36:33.739
that they're going to need throughout the day,

00:36:33.820 --> 00:36:37.139
things like saying stop, you know, asking for

00:36:37.139 --> 00:36:41.050
help. saying finished so it was those core communication

00:36:41.050 --> 00:36:44.510
intentions the majority of kids I work with in

00:36:44.510 --> 00:36:48.250
one particular school are GLPers so it actually

00:36:48.250 --> 00:36:50.710
worked quite nicely because I could then adapt

00:36:50.710 --> 00:36:53.670
those core words into phrases as well so like

00:36:53.670 --> 00:36:57.469
I'm finished and I need help that kind of thing

00:36:57.469 --> 00:37:00.250
so that's what I've been starting to set up and

00:37:00.250 --> 00:37:05.920
modeling I think now it's more sort of like looking

00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:08.480
to see how the adults are doing you know those

00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:10.880
who have modeled it to is there any extra advice

00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:14.860
i can give i think so far it's been you know

00:37:14.860 --> 00:37:18.239
really positive um it's just now yeah is there

00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:20.519
anything i can add and i can maybe like observe

00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:23.820
them running it just to sort of try and make

00:37:23.820 --> 00:37:29.079
it as robust as possible as well but yeah so

00:37:29.079 --> 00:37:31.730
far so good It does make sense. So for those

00:37:31.730 --> 00:37:34.690
that haven't heard of rise therapy, it's a four

00:37:34.690 --> 00:37:39.230
step system of and led by the learners. And so

00:37:39.230 --> 00:37:41.849
the pace is led by the learners and you moving

00:37:41.849 --> 00:37:44.150
from step to step is led by the learners too.

00:37:44.550 --> 00:37:47.230
And if you only, if they're only ready for step

00:37:47.230 --> 00:37:51.170
one and you just do step one, that's also good.

00:37:51.269 --> 00:37:53.510
And that was the fundamentals of this neurofaring

00:37:53.510 --> 00:37:55.210
practice. Remember, we're listening to them.

00:37:55.690 --> 00:37:57.750
We're helping them to understand their bodies

00:37:57.750 --> 00:37:59.929
and when they need to move on and when they don't.

00:38:00.510 --> 00:38:04.050
So step one is all about regulation and reconnection.

00:38:04.070 --> 00:38:06.989
So it's all about connecting after anything that's

00:38:06.989 --> 00:38:08.829
broken down, any broken promises that have happened

00:38:08.829 --> 00:38:10.670
all throughout the day. We break promises all

00:38:10.670 --> 00:38:15.329
the time as practitioners. Even if we don't know

00:38:15.329 --> 00:38:17.230
we have, you know, a learner might have been

00:38:17.230 --> 00:38:19.369
expecting a certain snack and then it's not in

00:38:19.369 --> 00:38:21.190
their lunchbox and we've broken that promise,

00:38:21.269 --> 00:38:24.039
you know. Maybe we've made a change to the timetable.

00:38:24.119 --> 00:38:25.659
Maybe the photographer's in the hall and the

00:38:25.659 --> 00:38:27.579
PE can't happen. Maybe it's raining so we have

00:38:27.579 --> 00:38:29.539
outdoor play. All of those kind of broken promises

00:38:29.539 --> 00:38:33.019
throughout the day. So step one's all about reconnecting,

00:38:33.019 --> 00:38:37.420
co -regulation, and yeah, regulating together

00:38:37.420 --> 00:38:38.679
and connecting together in a beautiful intensive

00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:40.940
interaction kind of way, if you know that term.

00:38:41.820 --> 00:38:45.360
And then step two, if they're ready, is about

00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:49.940
a lead adult stepping away. and inviting them

00:38:49.940 --> 00:38:53.739
into a group type scenario. So it will be highly

00:38:53.739 --> 00:38:56.619
visual, highly motivating. And the idea is that

00:38:56.619 --> 00:38:59.420
we want the learners to notice this and come

00:38:59.420 --> 00:39:02.719
on over on their own terms or not come over on

00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:05.159
their own terms. And that is honored also if

00:39:05.159 --> 00:39:08.159
they want to stay in step one or, you know, they

00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:10.730
can observe, they can come on over. And the idea

00:39:10.730 --> 00:39:13.190
is when they do come over, we start steps three

00:39:13.190 --> 00:39:15.769
right away. They get right into the action straight

00:39:15.769 --> 00:39:17.969
away. We've had learners to jump straight into

00:39:17.969 --> 00:39:21.150
the tough trays. We've had learners sprinkling

00:39:21.150 --> 00:39:23.210
things, banging things. They're in the action

00:39:23.210 --> 00:39:25.250
straight away. They don't have to wait. They

00:39:25.250 --> 00:39:26.829
want to explore. We've got their engagement.

00:39:26.909 --> 00:39:29.610
We're going to validate that and celebrate that.

00:39:30.230 --> 00:39:33.650
Step three is all about being alone together.

00:39:33.750 --> 00:39:36.690
So playing in all of our own beautiful ways.

00:39:37.179 --> 00:39:39.000
but alongside each other, because that's how

00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:41.420
collaboration starts. That's how social interaction

00:39:41.420 --> 00:39:45.139
starts. And we have seen some really lovely interactions

00:39:45.139 --> 00:39:47.280
happening on their own terms, which is really

00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:49.360
exciting. And meanwhile, the adults are kind

00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:52.860
of validating all of the communication they see,

00:39:53.059 --> 00:39:55.960
all the attempts, all of the social play attempts,

00:39:56.239 --> 00:39:58.059
all of their play styles and all of those things.

00:39:58.139 --> 00:40:00.340
Everything's safe. We are validating and modelling

00:40:00.340 --> 00:40:03.420
back at them. And then step four, when we're

00:40:03.420 --> 00:40:05.800
ready, when the learners are kind of... I feel

00:40:05.800 --> 00:40:08.300
like they've had enough and you can see that

00:40:08.300 --> 00:40:11.780
they're starting to disengage, maybe wander off,

00:40:11.920 --> 00:40:15.260
maybe, you know, finish playing. It's time for

00:40:15.260 --> 00:40:18.179
step four, which is ending. A whole section on

00:40:18.179 --> 00:40:20.840
its own, all about the ending of a loved activity,

00:40:21.179 --> 00:40:23.579
transitioning out of it and what that looks like.

00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:27.800
So it looks like making a game out of tidying

00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:30.139
up, a little bit Mary Poppins style. Find the

00:40:30.139 --> 00:40:32.179
game in the tidying up so it's less triggering

00:40:32.179 --> 00:40:35.610
and less dysregulating for our learners. And

00:40:35.610 --> 00:40:37.610
also that they can see that it's visually and

00:40:37.610 --> 00:40:41.130
slowly in their own time coming to an end. We

00:40:41.130 --> 00:40:43.690
get rid of the visual clutter and they can see

00:40:43.690 --> 00:40:46.989
that, you know, they can pace it out, that the

00:40:46.989 --> 00:40:50.010
ending doesn't happen straight away. And we go

00:40:50.010 --> 00:40:52.610
and get on with something else just as even more

00:40:52.610 --> 00:40:54.530
exciting over the other women and they can join

00:40:54.530 --> 00:40:58.250
again. Something that we noticed was I only wanted

00:40:58.250 --> 00:41:01.829
to create this as a afternoon communication group.

00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:05.340
offer activity lesson to replace some of the

00:41:05.340 --> 00:41:07.480
more compliance -based practices that I was using

00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:11.659
before. But actually what's happened is it isn't

00:41:11.659 --> 00:41:14.579
a lone session at all. It's actually now kind

00:41:14.579 --> 00:41:17.639
of bled into everything we do. So even when my

00:41:17.639 --> 00:41:20.179
learner has to go to the toilet, for example,

00:41:20.340 --> 00:41:23.360
we are using a rise -based approach to do that.

00:41:23.800 --> 00:41:25.599
We're thinking, okay, we need to connect first

00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:27.519
before we ask them to do this really tricky activity

00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:30.199
for them. How can we make the activity as fun

00:41:30.199 --> 00:41:32.599
and affirming as possible and validating for

00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:35.119
them and their needs? And then how can we finish

00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:38.840
this activity in a really positive and learner

00:41:38.840 --> 00:41:41.679
play? And it's kind of, it's led into everything

00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:44.039
really. So we call it RISE sessions, but actually

00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:46.440
it seems to be like a RISE system more than that

00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:51.190
because it really is embedded in the best. neurofirming

00:41:51.190 --> 00:41:54.110
practice and I'm incredibly proud of it and we've

00:41:54.110 --> 00:41:56.570
seen some amazing results I went to a school

00:41:56.570 --> 00:41:59.630
just last week and I'd never met the learners

00:41:59.630 --> 00:42:03.289
before they were early years absolutely gorgeous

00:42:03.289 --> 00:42:06.170
and there was 10 early years autistic children

00:42:06.170 --> 00:42:09.010
non -speaking that I'd never met before and ran

00:42:09.010 --> 00:42:12.809
a rise session and every single one of them joined

00:42:12.809 --> 00:42:15.969
it when they don't normally we had some beautiful

00:42:15.969 --> 00:42:20.349
spoken and AAC communication And we finished

00:42:20.349 --> 00:42:23.150
the activity regulated and having had a really

00:42:23.150 --> 00:42:25.210
great time. And that would just never happen

00:42:25.210 --> 00:42:27.690
in a brand new class that I'd never met before

00:42:27.690 --> 00:42:29.889
with other practices that I've used in the past,

00:42:30.030 --> 00:42:32.630
which just shows that the learners were heard.

00:42:33.070 --> 00:42:35.469
They were invested. They wanted to be there.

00:42:35.650 --> 00:42:37.829
And all of a sudden there was no behaviors because

00:42:37.829 --> 00:42:41.130
they wanted to be there. And often crisis behaviors

00:42:41.130 --> 00:42:44.050
and hurting behaviors come from two things, either

00:42:44.050 --> 00:42:46.469
not feeling heard and understood and things feeling

00:42:46.469 --> 00:42:49.210
triggering for them. and then being made to do

00:42:49.210 --> 00:42:52.909
it or a sense of not um dysregulation as in the

00:42:52.909 --> 00:42:55.489
sensory wise and i feel like rise listens to

00:42:55.489 --> 00:42:57.369
their sensory needs and regulation all the way

00:42:57.369 --> 00:42:58.989
through and it also helps them to feel heard

00:42:58.989 --> 00:43:01.449
which so we just we're just not seeing as much

00:43:01.449 --> 00:43:04.590
of that um spiking behavior yeah i don't know

00:43:04.590 --> 00:43:07.929
what you've found yes so i've really liked it

00:43:07.929 --> 00:43:10.610
so that's what you said about like some of those

00:43:10.610 --> 00:43:13.190
i guess key principles as well like that connection

00:43:13.190 --> 00:43:17.280
with the child and i think having that time to

00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:20.039
regulate at the beginning and it kind of reminds

00:43:20.039 --> 00:43:24.000
me of the there's like a triangle model the Taylor

00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:26.679
Trott pyramid of learning you know where it starts

00:43:26.679 --> 00:43:29.360
with the central nervous system then it's like

00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:32.119
sensory systems the auditory and visual processing

00:43:32.119 --> 00:43:35.440
language then learning it's just so nice to sort

00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:37.139
of it's so funny you mentioned that because that

00:43:37.139 --> 00:43:38.739
is absolutely the fundamentals of everything

00:43:38.739 --> 00:43:40.820
I do if you want to look at it up it's called

00:43:40.820 --> 00:43:43.199
the pyramid of learning and yeah it's so true

00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:46.750
it The sensory system is the basis of all learning.

00:43:46.829 --> 00:43:48.289
And then right at the top of this pyramid is

00:43:48.289 --> 00:43:50.590
academic learning. There's no way we could get

00:43:50.590 --> 00:43:52.550
to that point without all of these fundamental

00:43:52.550 --> 00:43:55.630
skills learned beforehand. Definitely. And I've

00:43:55.630 --> 00:43:58.050
really found like the shared experience because

00:43:58.050 --> 00:44:01.289
there's no kind of demands on the turn taking

00:44:01.289 --> 00:44:04.489
as well. You know, mother approaches focus more

00:44:04.489 --> 00:44:07.570
on like. you know that i guess yeah every child

00:44:07.570 --> 00:44:10.289
has to wait their turn which is just really tough

00:44:10.289 --> 00:44:12.969
for a lot of neurodivergent children and you

00:44:12.969 --> 00:44:15.949
know it's such there's so fun activities that

00:44:15.949 --> 00:44:17.809
you're like oh you just want to get your hands

00:44:17.809 --> 00:44:21.309
on them anyways honoring that's just really lovely

00:44:21.309 --> 00:44:23.489
and i quite like that like you know a lot of

00:44:23.489 --> 00:44:26.909
the activities as well you can have say you know

00:44:26.909 --> 00:44:29.449
you're doing the word i think it was the one

00:44:29.449 --> 00:44:32.269
with more and it's kind of like putting the lentils

00:44:32.269 --> 00:44:35.099
in the jug and then pouring it but everyone gets

00:44:35.099 --> 00:44:37.179
a cup and the fact that everyone's got a cup

00:44:37.179 --> 00:44:40.059
and can do it in their own way allows us then

00:44:40.059 --> 00:44:42.619
to like model language whilst they're like focused

00:44:42.619 --> 00:44:45.619
on that like play it could be more but it also

00:44:45.619 --> 00:44:48.840
could be in and out it could be it could be sprinkles

00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:53.420
yes yes it's really flexible and that's what

00:44:53.420 --> 00:44:55.820
i've said to like the adults working with kids

00:44:55.820 --> 00:44:57.739
who are doing it throughout the week is that

00:44:58.139 --> 00:45:00.639
you know, I worked on this word with this material,

00:45:00.739 --> 00:45:03.780
but you can also like recycle a lot of the resources

00:45:03.780 --> 00:45:06.320
as well, you know, change things up. And that

00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:08.500
has been nice. A lot of the things we've been

00:45:08.500 --> 00:45:11.079
doing have been available in the environment

00:45:11.079 --> 00:45:13.739
as well, which is really nice. We were really

00:45:13.739 --> 00:45:15.599
aware that was actually one of, there was two

00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:17.920
things on our list that we had to include that

00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:20.420
we could never include in the previous ways we've

00:45:20.420 --> 00:45:23.019
been doing communication sessions. One of them

00:45:23.019 --> 00:45:25.880
was to include PMLD and visually impaired learners,

00:45:26.019 --> 00:45:28.119
because for the... practice that we were using

00:45:28.119 --> 00:45:32.760
before it was very very exclusive for non -ambulant

00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:34.460
learners so learners that couldn't get themselves

00:45:34.460 --> 00:45:38.920
to the area um and how do we measure compliance

00:45:38.920 --> 00:45:41.420
in that like how do we measure their consent

00:45:41.420 --> 00:45:43.699
in that if we're like pushing them there and

00:45:43.699 --> 00:45:46.079
you know say like not giving the option to not

00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:49.239
be there and so it had to be that and then also

00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:53.360
It had to be affordable. It had to be doable

00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:56.179
with one adult and it had to be affordable with

00:45:56.179 --> 00:45:58.840
stuff that you've already got because we have

00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:01.780
no budget and teachers and TH and assistants

00:46:01.780 --> 00:46:05.260
and SLTs were using their own money to buy all

00:46:05.260 --> 00:46:08.420
these really expensive resources and being asked

00:46:08.420 --> 00:46:10.780
to change it over regularly so that it's kept

00:46:10.780 --> 00:46:13.420
exciting. Well, actually, if we think really

00:46:13.420 --> 00:46:17.400
creatively about using... these a cup and lentils

00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:19.480
i tell you what we could do that for a whole

00:46:19.480 --> 00:46:21.320
term i promise you if we are really creative

00:46:21.320 --> 00:46:23.099
with it we could use them in all sorts of ways

00:46:23.099 --> 00:46:25.139
so then we're making our budget stretch more

00:46:25.139 --> 00:46:28.480
we also really really really celebrate repeating

00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:30.940
your sessions we want you to repeat the session

00:46:30.940 --> 00:46:33.400
three or five times before changing it over so

00:46:33.400 --> 00:46:35.460
you're getting so much use out of these resources

00:46:35.460 --> 00:46:37.500
that you've put together and the time you've

00:46:37.500 --> 00:46:40.280
spent to put together and plan it We do that

00:46:40.280 --> 00:46:42.739
for that reason, but also because we've noticed

00:46:42.739 --> 00:46:45.800
that learners need repetition in order for their

00:46:45.800 --> 00:46:48.480
anxiety to reduce and for their learning and

00:46:48.480 --> 00:46:50.960
understanding to build. And what we're noticing

00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:53.239
is maybe on session one, the learner was just

00:46:53.239 --> 00:46:54.960
observing and didn't want to come over at all.

00:46:55.079 --> 00:46:58.260
And by lesson five, they're in the action. Sometimes

00:46:58.260 --> 00:47:00.980
it takes that repetition. And it's been nice

00:47:00.980 --> 00:47:03.380
as well because I've done it with sort of like

00:47:03.380 --> 00:47:06.719
younger kids and older ones, you know, and it's

00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:10.239
worked. as well for both of my groups which is

00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:13.059
really nice you know um i think just because

00:47:13.059 --> 00:47:16.239
the activities are really fun and sensory friendly

00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:19.239
and so they've been perfect for like a resource

00:47:19.239 --> 00:47:22.480
base at the minute yeah i am really aware of

00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:24.719
you know we have got beginner training on the

00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:27.360
rice therapy sessions .com website we've also

00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:29.980
got level one training as well level one i mean

00:47:29.980 --> 00:47:32.369
it's hard to get it It's beautiful on social

00:47:32.369 --> 00:47:34.369
media and it works really well, but it is a one

00:47:34.369 --> 00:47:36.329
size fits all on social media because I always

00:47:36.329 --> 00:47:38.550
use a tough tray and I'm always gearing it towards

00:47:38.550 --> 00:47:41.610
learners that are like in my class. Whereas what

00:47:41.610 --> 00:47:43.650
I've noticed that going around schools and doing

00:47:43.650 --> 00:47:46.110
training is I'm adapting my practice so much,

00:47:46.110 --> 00:47:48.150
but I can't translate that into social media.

00:47:48.780 --> 00:47:51.500
So I might be using a tough tray on a stand.

00:47:51.659 --> 00:47:53.840
I might be using, and one of the practitioners

00:47:53.840 --> 00:47:56.280
that did the level one training recently said,

00:47:56.420 --> 00:47:57.940
well, I've got way too many learners. I've got

00:47:57.940 --> 00:47:59.860
12 learners. We can't all share one tough tray.

00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:04.239
So she put out some, a massive sheet of, what's

00:48:04.239 --> 00:48:07.289
it called? The plastic sheet. and then rolled

00:48:07.289 --> 00:48:08.929
a towel all the way around the edge so they could

00:48:08.929 --> 00:48:11.070
all get in because they all wanted to get in,

00:48:11.250 --> 00:48:13.469
which is fabulous. We've got one of the directors

00:48:13.469 --> 00:48:16.889
that does it at a table. We've got a couple of

00:48:16.889 --> 00:48:18.909
people that use it on individual trays and they

00:48:18.909 --> 00:48:21.050
do it in a way smaller group. So also, again,

00:48:21.309 --> 00:48:24.869
even my neurofaring practice can become compliance

00:48:24.869 --> 00:48:27.170
-based if you're copying what I'm doing exactly

00:48:27.170 --> 00:48:30.170
and not translating into your room for your learners.

00:48:30.230 --> 00:48:33.550
I want you to take what I've got and I want you

00:48:33.550 --> 00:48:38.780
to adapt it. edit it make it suit your learners

00:48:38.780 --> 00:48:41.039
maybe your learners are super into minecraft

00:48:41.039 --> 00:48:44.599
mine aren't do minecraft you know don't just

00:48:44.599 --> 00:48:47.960
take my word as you know be all and end all like

00:48:47.960 --> 00:48:50.800
i want you to take this and translate it And

00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:53.639
that is neuroaffirming too. It would be compliance

00:48:53.639 --> 00:48:56.380
-based if you were copying my plan exactly. Definitely.

00:48:56.639 --> 00:48:59.219
And sticking to the plan and not reading what

00:48:59.219 --> 00:49:01.500
your learners are telling you. 100%. As long

00:49:01.500 --> 00:49:03.820
as you've got those core neuroaffirming principles

00:49:03.820 --> 00:49:07.460
in mind, you can apply them to, yeah, any situation,

00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:12.460
activity. Yeah, I love to hear that you're using

00:49:12.460 --> 00:49:14.719
it. I mean, it's an honour really that such highly

00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:16.780
skilled speech and language therapists are using

00:49:16.780 --> 00:49:19.360
my system. I mean, that is... incredibly validating

00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:22.300
for me and it's so wonderful to hear that you

00:49:22.300 --> 00:49:24.840
are seeing what I'm seeing it's really exciting

00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:28.400
brilliant even being there is just it's I can't

00:49:28.400 --> 00:49:31.900
tell you how exciting that is so I suppose a

00:49:31.900 --> 00:49:35.480
summary of this podcast I wrote this out before

00:49:35.480 --> 00:49:37.860
and I wonder if it is the summary I'd like to

00:49:37.860 --> 00:49:40.619
hear your thoughts I've written while a level

00:49:40.619 --> 00:49:43.880
of compliance is necessary for a safe and functional

00:49:43.880 --> 00:49:48.730
school like following safety procedures Excessive

00:49:48.730 --> 00:49:52.929
compliance -based practice can overshadow learning

00:49:52.929 --> 00:49:56.329
goals, leading to a system that prioritizes efficiency

00:49:56.329 --> 00:50:01.030
over deep, meaningful learning. Many modern educators

00:50:01.030 --> 00:50:04.090
seek to move beyond compliance to foster engagement

00:50:04.090 --> 00:50:07.949
and student agency. I'd love that to be the kind

00:50:07.949 --> 00:50:13.170
of takeaway of this episode today. And I suppose

00:50:13.170 --> 00:50:15.929
if you're not sure about what you're doing is

00:50:15.929 --> 00:50:18.929
compliance based or neuro affirming, think about

00:50:18.929 --> 00:50:22.789
that. Do my students have agency? Do they have

00:50:22.789 --> 00:50:26.449
opportunities to consent over this or not? What

00:50:26.449 --> 00:50:28.670
are they telling me with their body language?

00:50:28.789 --> 00:50:32.730
And then am I listening to that? I suppose. Definitely.

00:50:32.849 --> 00:50:36.769
And I think like things like, you know, universal

00:50:36.769 --> 00:50:39.429
supports that sometimes are a bit easier are

00:50:39.429 --> 00:50:42.530
just like. you know having something available

00:50:42.530 --> 00:50:45.369
for everyone sometimes is better than sort of

00:50:45.369 --> 00:50:47.630
nothing available you know that could be like

00:50:47.630 --> 00:50:54.730
thinking about yes exactly yeah and actually

00:50:54.730 --> 00:50:57.909
looking more at like you know maybe like everyone's

00:50:57.909 --> 00:51:00.829
energy levels i really like that concept of energy

00:51:00.829 --> 00:51:05.110
quite concrete and easy to sort of like access

00:51:05.110 --> 00:51:07.690
for a lot of neurodivergent kids but if everybody

00:51:07.690 --> 00:51:11.530
was sort of Checking in and then also accessing

00:51:11.530 --> 00:51:14.690
something as well to help regulate them. You

00:51:14.690 --> 00:51:16.969
know, any little things that are quite easy as

00:51:16.969 --> 00:51:20.050
a universal support. Yeah. And as adults, just

00:51:20.050 --> 00:51:23.710
sort of like modeling like our own, you know,

00:51:23.750 --> 00:51:26.750
like today I've got my fidget toy. Like, yeah,

00:51:26.869 --> 00:51:29.730
they're quite similar. I love that. You know,

00:51:29.730 --> 00:51:32.230
us modeling that within the classroom in our

00:51:32.230 --> 00:51:35.960
sessions. and i feel that is quite a nice kind

00:51:35.960 --> 00:51:37.960
of response to what i said earlier with the whole

00:51:37.960 --> 00:51:40.940
body listening is what do we need then what can

00:51:40.940 --> 00:51:44.519
support our bodies to listen instead of trying

00:51:44.519 --> 00:51:48.000
to do it in a way isn't it it's taking okay well

00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:49.880
yes of course we want our bodies to listen but

00:51:49.880 --> 00:51:51.760
what that looks like is different and it's what

00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:53.500
scaffolding needs to be in place in order for

00:51:53.500 --> 00:51:56.679
my learners to listen in that way and it could

00:51:56.679 --> 00:52:00.039
be a highly robust movement break that's totally

00:52:00.039 --> 00:52:01.719
bespoke to them that helps them be regulated

00:52:01.719 --> 00:52:04.500
so they can focus for longer rather than just

00:52:04.500 --> 00:52:06.940
asking them to do it you know yeah putting that

00:52:06.940 --> 00:52:09.360
support in place yeah i love that and there's

00:52:09.360 --> 00:52:11.940
so many different places to go if you're thinking

00:52:11.940 --> 00:52:13.440
oh i want to get this all in place there's so

00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:15.360
many different places to go if you want more

00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:17.820
information on rise therapy then go to risetherapysessions

00:52:17.820 --> 00:52:20.460
.com i'll leave the link down to that um below

00:52:20.460 --> 00:52:22.579
and milana if you want to leave anything other

00:52:23.070 --> 00:52:25.210
Links down below that your systems that you're

00:52:25.210 --> 00:52:27.949
really enjoying. Intensive interaction was mentioned.

00:52:28.050 --> 00:52:30.269
That's a fantastic one. I'll leave that live.

00:52:30.650 --> 00:52:33.449
But anything else, please contact Milan. Follow

00:52:33.449 --> 00:52:37.710
him on at the underscore ADHD underscore SLT.

00:52:37.769 --> 00:52:40.869
You are fabulous. And it's so wonderful to talk

00:52:40.869 --> 00:52:44.190
to you. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much

00:52:44.190 --> 00:52:44.829
for having me.