Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education
teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything
communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson
ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged
4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in
the field answering your questions and sharing
our knowledge and experience working alongside
our beautiful young people. Let's get started.
Hello everybody and welcome to the Sensory Classroom
podcast. My name is Jordan and today I'm joined
by Milan. He came to me and wanted to talk about
compliance -based approaches versus neuroaffirming
approaches and it's something so close to my
heart. I'm so excited to talk to him about that
today. Hello Milan. Hi, thanks so much for having
me on today. It's also a topic I'm really passionate
about as well. And it's ever evolving as well.
So it's every day something new comes out and
yeah, it's crazy. I like that's what's so confusing,
isn't it? Because it seems like even the professionals
of speech and language therapists and occupational
therapists and ed psychs and the government,
you know, everybody's kind of juggling with these
new. words and trying to get it right and maybe
everything that we've already learned before
is now kind of being unraveled and nobody really
knows where to turn what's right from wrong and
i suppose that's why i made this podcast to really
clarify what we mean by neuroaffirming approach
what we mean by compliance -based approach so
that in the moment people feel kind of they've
got a good toolkit and understanding to make
their best judgment Definitely and kind of like
making it as easy to implement as possible because
I'm aware like starting again with approaches
is a lot of work in terms of resource making
but it's also just sort of like embedding those
principles of neuroaffirming practice in any
way possible and sometimes that doesn't involve
changing really resources it can be just like
the language and things like that that you're
using or the strategies. And maybe it's some
things that people are already doing without
realising. And I think lots of people maybe are.
Before we get into the meat of it, do you want
to tell us a little bit more about you and what
we do and how you work? Yes. So I'm a speech
and language therapist. I've been in practice
now for six years. I've always worked with paediatric.
client groups in schools so that could be resource
spaces mainstream i've done primary and secondary
and the main client groups i work with are autism
adhd you know things like dld and i'd say like
selective mutism as well as another one so it's
a real range and I think that's why I really
like my job because every day is different you
know I like changing my schools across the week
and also just yeah going in and meeting different
children but I've always I think for the past
three years that's where like neuroaffirming
practice has really like you know struck a chord
in a sense with me because I just feel as an
ADHD myself and also from my family experience,
we're quite a neurodivergent family as well with
my brother who's autistic and my sister who's
dyslexic. I've just now started to like re -evaluate
a lot of those things that I was taught, you
know, at university and also in the first couple
years of my practice. Some of which, you know,
I kind of knew at the time, like my gut was saying
this doesn't feel right. you know that's what's
out there that's what you've been taught so it's
kind of relearning all of that and and actually
yeah i do like that you know every day you learn
something new but actually accepting that you
can't know everything yet either and it's always
going to be changing you know but doing the best
you can but yeah I'd say neurodiversity is a
real passion of mine within both my personal
life but also like professionally as well I can
see that it's funny so many people come into
this career either they come into it and then
they realize about their own neurodivergence
and their family's neurodivergence or they know
about their neurodivergence their family's neurodivergence
and then a passion about the career it kind of
is either or isn't it um oh how do you start
let's go into first of all what we mean by compliance
-based practice i love it when you said in your
podcast write up that and we do to like apply
to be on this podcast and i just want to read
that out for everybody because i just think you
said it so well you said compliance -based approaches
that are often implemented in schools they may
often be sold as neuroaffirming but beneath the
surface their core aims are deficit focused and
compliance -based so what do you mean by compliance
-based what are you meaning when you say that
term Compliance, I guess it's like when you're
trying to make everybody do sort of the same
thing even if maybe like your brain works differently.
So it's kind of like trying to, you know, aim
for everybody to, you know, come out with like
neurotypical ways of attending to activities,
neurotypical ways of, you know, making friends
or socialising, learning. I think a lot of schools
and just life in general workplaces have been
set up with neurotypical brains in mind so it's
kind of like compliance would be kind of people
just following suit really and not really advocating
for those differences. and i think what's interesting
about compliance is you know a child might be
you know sat still might look calm might look
regulated but under that you know you might have
a child who's really like masking and you know
then letting it out maybe at the end of the day
so what might look like you know the child is
doing something and that's often for like survival
versus like underneath that you know there's
a lot going on mainstream teachers or lots of
mainstream parents will be absolutely nodding
at that yeah yeah i had a look at it online of
what the like some examples are and that is it's
exactly what you've said it's standardization
of one size fits all approach to teaching or
assessment even um also in extrinsic motivation
so students are motivated by uh rewards or grades
or avoiding penalties or avoiding, you know,
being on the traffic light, avoiding being removed,
I suppose, rather than intrinsic curiosity and
an intrinsic want to be there and intrinsic engagement
and want to learn, I suppose. Passive learning
as well. to be passive receivers of information,
just listening and complying with instructions
rather than actually being actively involved,
which I mean, for all learners, I would say is
an ideal, but especially for our neurodivergent
learners, they kind of need to be in the action
for the most part. And then I suppose systemic
pressure as well arises from pressures on educators
to teach to the test or teach to the outcome,
teach to meeting the IEP, meeting the EHCP rather
than actually in the moment what that child wants
to learn or needs to learn for them. You know,
are we starting with writing on paper because
that's what the outcome says? You know, maybe
that's not the child's main need or one of. receiving
or giving information maybe it's not written
maybe it's a different way or something else
so yeah and that's a really good point about
the curriculum yeah because you know it often
doesn't always relate to that child's interests
and maybe they could show an outcome through
that interest but then when it's not related
to their interest it might look like they don't
have the skill but Actually, it's just maybe
it's not been tailored. Yeah, it is all come
from that systemic pressure as well and how a
curriculum should look. So what we've said sounds
very mainstream, but I know it happens in special
education too. So it might be having a one communication
approach. I went into a school this month and
they were doing beautiful signing, beautiful
Makaton signing. The teacher was modelling it
incredibly well and was obviously very... talented
in signing but two of the learners in the class
had AAC devices and these weren't modelled at
all and then I also noticed on the wall that
there were some core boards that also weren't
being used and modelled at all so even in special
education we can have a standardisation. which
doesn't fit all approach rather than a neuroaffirming
one, which affirms and includes and celebrates
all ways of communicating or all ways of learning.
That's a really good point about how it's often
biased towards certain communication preferences,
such as like the spoken word, as opposed to like,
yeah, paper -based or electronic AAC as well,
which would help, you know, everybody access
that learning in their own way as well. Yeah.
So that's compliance -based. I feel like we've
got a good handle on that. So it's the standardization.
It's a one -size -fits -all approach. What about
neuroaffirming? What do we mean by that? So that
would be more about sort of like taking a strengths
-based approach and actually, you know, looking
at more at the child's interests, following their
lead. it would be about honoring different ways
of communicating a bit like what you've picked
up on earlier and around like you know different
ways of getting their message across whether
that's through AAC or mouth words with honoring
all of those communication preferences but also
like someone's preferred style of communication
as well so it might be that you know ADHD is
often due to like things like impulse control
may jump in a conversation but it's not something
that can be controlled you know like it's just
part of their communication style you know they
feel that often that thought may disappear in
their brain if you know they don't say it right
then so it's not like I want to jump in and take
over it's more like i will forget what i've said
if i don't let this out and same in the way quite
often autistic children may be labeled like things
like rude when actually you know they are just
more direct and like they mean what they say
you know so it's kind of like it's and we can
come on to it a bit later but it's also considering
that double empathy problem you know if you've
got differences in your behavior and communication
as part of your neurotype then of course if you're
put with someone with a different neurotype you're
not going to understand each other and I think
that's a really nice part of neuro affirming
practice is the double empathy problem that's
one that I always have in the back of my head
when just you know supporting children in schools
and a really key one as well I feel is you know
validating lived experience we have such lovely
examples nowadays from neurodivergent voices
that are saying that a lot of these compliance
-based tools have not been helpful you know like
they had learned to suppress certain things like
stimming and their echolalia they might have
been you know told to play with other people
when actually their play preference was solitary
and that's okay you know we don't all want to
just go and play with people so i think that's
another key part is that we really have access
to lived experience now and neurodivergent voices
whether that's through books or social media
for me has been a real big learning um i guess
tool for my practice but also just um for my
own brain as well you know and i think also within
that is thinking about things like you know intersectionality
as well So thinking about other minority identities
within neurodivergence. So it could be like race.
It could be thinking about gender identity. It
could be sexual orientation. All those different
intersectionalities, I think, is a key part as
well to it. Yeah, it's valuing difference, isn't
it? It's recognising that different brain developments
and functions are natural variation and not broken
or disordered to not have an ableist approach.
to what the goal is. Like the goal isn't mouth
words or the goal isn't sitting and listening
and stillness to learn. The goal isn't writing
with a pen on paper. I suppose it's unpicking
that ableist attitude, isn't it? Of what learning,
education, communication, sensory regulation
looks like and celebrating what it looks like
in our learners and dropping off a bat. yes because
like if we are using more of those compliance
based tools where we are saying exactly that
aren't we that you know your way of communicating
is wrong or paying attention yes and you need
to do it in this way when actually that's not
honoring the like preferences yeah and we're
working then against the brain not with it I
always think that's quite a key thing to think
about is yeah Yeah, it's something that I often
fall back on accidentally. It's almost like a
muscle that has to constantly be reminded and
exercised of the goal, the ultimate goal not
being mouth words or the ultimate goal not being
stillness. Like something I always have to try
and remind myself. I suppose the ultimate goal
not being social is, I suppose it's moving away
from fixing. That's what it is. It's 100%. It's
rejecting the goal of making neurodivergent people
appear neurotypical or normal. Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, exactly. Instead providing support that
fosters themselves, you know. 100%. And that
kind of fits in that kind of move away from the
medical model, doesn't it, where all that onus
was on the neurodivergent. person as opposed
to like looking at those adjustments around the
child um as known as the social model yeah yeah
absolutely so you mentioned in the beginning
that in the first half of your career you were
using compliance -based approaches so i suppose
what did that look like so that people kind of
understand what it is you were using and then
we can go on to what it looks like in the most
recent three years Yes yes so it kind of all
started at uni in terms of like I guess being
taught all around like compliant based tools
so one example was how we can sort of ensure
neurodivergent people can you know listen in
a specific certain way so it was kind of looking
at um whole body listening so can that you know
child um or young person you know sit at a table
keep their hands still you know don't talk when
anyone else is talking you know um don't move
around and look at the speaker you know so i
quite often might have had like a whole body
listening poster within a session or i might
have um kind of recommended that to be put on
the wall in the classroom um i kind of deep down
knew that you know because in the session i'd
be ticking off okay they looked at me they they
kept their hands still they you know their legs
were still i was like this doesn't feel right
my gut saying it but then i've been taught that
this is the right way of doing it so i'm going
to keep doing it And I always used to adapt it
anyway a little bit where like, you know, you
get, it was very rewards based. Like if you ticked
all of those different, I guess, behaviours,
you would get a sticker. But if a child didn't,
I was like, I've not got it in me to not give
you a sticker. So I knew that like this doesn't
feel right. And then I think other kind of tools
as well that I was kind of using in the past
were things like communication systems. I was
taught at uni you know that particular communication
systems that only work on things like requesting
would be best and so very quite restricted and
they didn't have the opportunity to use core
vocabulary you know things like those functional
high frequency words that the child might need.
Or the fringe vocabulary, you know, things like
linked to their activities. Or just commenting
on something. That's one thing I've noticed.
It was often I want, I see, I need. But it wasn't
as much of that's funny. I like it. You know,
those kind of comments, which is so much. And
refusal as well. Refusal is a really good one.
No, I don't want it. I don't like it. Go away.
All of those things. survival phrases in a sense
that someone else had said you need you know
like like you were saying like I see I want you
know and that just also didn't really result
in any kind of generalization then because it
was just so restrictive and you know we need
to be looking at as well literacy as well that
doesn't also allow you to access literacy through
like the alphabet you know whereas having maybe
a a communication book or a device um will allow
you to kind of build on your literacy but also
be creative you know like we were really restricting
what that child might have wanted to get across
in their own way confusing because i have seen
in my in the 10 first 10 years of my career these
systems these compliance -based systems that
we're telling people now not to use Giving learners
a voice, supporting them to regulate and feel
heard and understood for the first time in their
life, to be able to request food and snacks and
to follow a schedule and to do their work and
all of those things, which is then really hard
to say, yeah, it works, but is it actually the
best way? Yes, it's evidence -based because it
works. But is it the kindest way? And I guess
that comes back to what you said about listening
to autistic voices. The autistic voices that
I'm listening to are saying, yes, it works, but
to the detriment of my mental health. Exactly
that. To the detriment of my body autonomy. Definitely.
And there's some quite, you know, distressing
kind of, I guess, responses to things like, yeah,
more behavior based. compliance based approaches
isn't there now and you know that alone is enough
to think that definitely needs like adaptation
you know it was i guess it's more that like long
-term effect of these like i know studies will
say oh in the short term they um you know maybe
achieve those goals but yeah at the detriment
of their own like mental health And I've seen
it in some of my learners who have gone on to
use high -tech AAC, so a way more robust communication
system that has lots of words and can say thousands
and thousands of things that they will want to
say, including refusal and all of those things
that we've said about. But because they've come
from a compliance -based approach in their early
years, they are putting their own restrictions
on this very robust device. They're on that time
naturally. or they're only using the I want sentences
because that's how they have learned to communicate
with the world. Yes, that's a really good point.
And it's really hard to undo that. Yeah. It's
far more than just start with the, you know,
robust system. Yes, no, 100%. I've noticed that
as well with things like, you know, GLP children
as well, where maybe they've learned those kind
of like, I guess, comments through sentence strips.
and then it's meant that they're always waiting
for the adult to give a bit of a cue like an
auditory maybe visual or a verbal cue really
until they yes start that conversation so you
can see that they've become a bit stuck with
their language yes so i think it's interesting
isn't it it's definitely something that i've
been trying to unpick over the last couple of
years is my learners not being so prompt dependent
because we're so quick to jump in and help them
we don't want to see them fail however we are
then not providing them the opportunity to be
independent thinkers or learners and even I was
noticing that even when my learners knew exactly
what to do it was part of their redid learned
pattern For the adult to come, the adult tells
me to get my coat and then I get my coat and
then I go outside, even though they perfectly
knew how, where and when to do those things.
So what we were doing was we were kind of embedding
the philosophy of you need adults. You need rigidity.
You cannot think for yourself. you know led to
still the same outcome of them putting on their
coat and going outside but actually what do we
want for our learners we want adults to be as
independent as possible whatever that looks like
for any learner to be free thinkers to read the
room to look around them in their environment
and to make a best judgment for themselves and
their bodies not just because the timetable tells
them to do something or because a now net tells
them to do something because so often with our
your autistic brains we we um maybe don't have
the social imagination to imagine outside of
what we're being shown so if we're being shown
in our next or being shown a visual timetable
we might not think that there's any other option
um than those two things whereas actually maybe
a more near affirming approach even though space
can be really supportive maybe used in a different
way can be more um collaborative choice boards
and giving us those more options knowing them
really intrinsically well to know to pause and
wait for them to make the decision see what they
go to and gravitate towards can be much more
affirming because you're listening to then they
can learn to listen to what their body needs
maybe their body doesn't want to wear a coat
need to go outside or any of those things yeah
and then they're much more like regulated aren't
they and that's more likely to then stick yeah
and then yeah i guess um another one that i kind
of used quite a lot was using you know i guess
color systems for like sharing emotions and regulating
and that's something over the years the more
i've got to know children that it isn't always
appropriate you know like for some children they
might always opt for a certain color because
that's gonna maybe please the adult or it feels
good they want to get the right answer get the
right answer the right answer yes so it's kind
of like it ends up teaching that you know certain
emotions like happy are the gold standard whereas
those kind of i guess in inverted commons more
negative emotions like you know angry sad even
tired you know they are then sort of like less
likely to be chosen so i think yeah that's got
me thinking and especially those like autistic
or you know neurodivergent children who have
alexithymia as well where it becomes really tricky
to recognize you know what's going on in their
bodies and in terms of like reading those body
signals so it's really hard them using color
systems because they're not gonna then know you
know attach that to a color to then know what
i also found is you can feel more than one thing
at once like i can be tired and excited at the
same time so in a neurodivergent brain It doesn't
make sense. Like, how do I just pick one when
I'm feeling two or three things at once, which
span the colors? It isn't as simple as that.
It would be lovely if it was, because what a
lovely system to be able to teach that with.
But actually, that's not really how it feels
in our bodies, not always. So, yeah, that's something
I noticed as well. I dabbled with that for, yeah,
maybe six months. And it was great for adult
modeling and adult. no naming and showing but
my learners yeah they just seem to gravitate
towards green even though we were very much everything
is except what it seems to be like they've all
they'd already learned this world knowledge that
that green is good still is good happy is good
yeah and it might then mean they've kind of you
know shifted from one emotion to another even
when it wasn't the right time or like adaptive
to do that so it's appropriate to be angry or
highly excitable or tired or slow or you know
yeah and it's so i guess in all of this with
all of these strategies there are neuroaffirming
ways of using them too i mean i did a quite controversial
post i suppose using a pex book and saying you
can still use the actual resource you just don't
use it in using the pex based compliance based
system You can still use now and next if you're
in collaboration with the child, if it's not
rewards focused, but if it's literally just showing
them what's next to help them to know it's this
first, then this, you know, if it's, if it's,
yeah, collaboration based, it feels very different
than. so i guess and scheduled timetables or
individual timetables i'm a huge advocate individual
timetables it gives children a lot of independence
with transitioning and a lot of low anxiety when
knowing things are coming up so that visual schedule
is incredibly important but how are we using
it how are we modeling it how are we putting
it across the children that's where it comes
so i don't feel like it's any one system it's
how we're using the system how we're using it
yeah because there's some sort of there's attention
programs out there you know that are used in
quite compliance ways you know it might be like
again looking at the sitting the you know no
moving around the room no touching that kind
of thing but if that was kind of adapted you
know to allow for things like touching because
for a lot of kids you know that is allowing them
to express the yeah body signals their sensory
needs you know we can learn a lot by being able
to touch an object you know it's very much about
that multi -sensory learning um and much better
when it's kind of like you know having that shared
experience with each child my thought was i've
tried so hard i've had to work so hard to get
your attention engagement in the first place
to get you to want to come over to then ask like
to then put a barrier in front of that of just
felt so anti -climactic for them but also just
so like it just felt like it was going against
everything that i just tried to do like i was
working so hard to make it so visual so fun i
bought loads of resources i've made all this
stuff and then they come over and i'm like oh
no but you can't touch it and it's like such
a great opportunity to like model that language
isn't it whilst they're playing and getting that
sensory input from things like yeah water or
different sensory materials and yeah i think
that's the thing it kind of becomes more about
them like you know following those neurotypical
norms when actually we could get a lot more with
kind of obviously some structure i do believe
they we need to support that for regulation but
just more flexibility throughout the session
just it makes it sort of more fun i feel as well
um yeah and i'm i'm noticing that so many people
aren't saying they're using all these systems
that you've mentioned that you've described but
are doing those changes they are adapting to
the tools and they are changing those learned
models that they had in training to their class.
And that is the right thing to do. That's what
we're saying. We're saying, you know, take the
idea of communication and using visuals, but
adapt it to what your child needs in that moment.
Work with them, not, you know, against them.
If it feels like a battle, then it's probably
compliance -based. It's not neuro -affirming.
If it feels like the children are happily and
readily accepting and wanting to do it. It's
probably neuroaffirming. If I get a niggle in
my gut that tells me, well, this, you know, teach
workstations is a classic example, actually,
where we're using workstations in my class. And
for some of my learners, they chose to do it
first thing in the morning because they wanted
that. They obviously found it very regulating.
They liked the system of left to right, and that
was good for them. Whereas some of my learners
needed so much convincing to go to the workstation.
It was highly triggering and dysregulating for
them. All of a sudden, then that obviously wasn't
right for that learner. Then you make a change.
So I guess it's about taking the idea of the
system, experimenting with it and working with
your child, not against them. We find something
that feels good for both of you. It's something
that helps them learn to feel heard and validated
and ultimately celebrates how they learn, how
they play, how they speak. 100 % and I feel like
you know I think you mentioned it earlier where
like having that option to say no or you know
leave the the activity and have a way out is
always helpful through you know like things like
paper -based or whatever way works for the child
and just respecting that yeah agency it's a great
skill isn't it being able to say no and kind
of links to and it doesn't mean that The no is
always honored because sometimes it's not safe.
So sometimes they don't want to hold your hand.
And of course, it's not safe to do that. But
it doesn't mean that they don't have the opportunity
to communicate no. No. Or heard or believed that
they want a no. But then you have, you know,
you have to hold their hand. So we're not saying
this whimsy fairy tale. Oh, yeah, just let them
do what they want. That is not what we're saying.
But we're saying to give them the opportunities
to at least be heard. You know, almost like.
If they had the symbol that says, no, don't touch,
not yet, all those kind of things. And we are
showing them that we believe them, that that's
important, that we're validating that. Then I
think I still feel like that's one step further.
That's one step closer to holding that relationship
and keeping that trust that at least they feel
believed. I think that's part of it. Definitely.
I think the validation is so important and that
can be across any access. as well. I've seen
that with, you know, things like when you look
into things like what a big or a smaller problem
is to somebody and just honoring that a small
problem to someone might be a big problem. And,
you know, just hearing them out on that, you
know, like maybe their favorite crayon is broken
and it's like, I can see that, you know, your
favorite crayon is broken. That's so frustrating,
you know, just. validating and offering that
maybe the sensory support i think that's a really
good point like validation is key yeah i did
notice that as soon as my learners had the high
-tech aac devices and that we were modeling to
them like when they were in crisis we were saying
like sad sad like don't like and things like
that And yes, that didn't fix the problem. It
didn't fix what they were sad about. But just
the fact that they felt heard and seen, it did
start to regulate them. It did start like they
felt like they get it. I don't need to show them
with my body that I'm hurt and frustrated. They
already know. They know. And we really saw a
reduction in crisis behaviors and hurting behaviors.
And instead, they were coming to us with their
ASC because they knew that's a communication
tool that both of us could. relate to and understand
and work through it together and again that's
that neuroaffirming approach isn't it it was
us rather than us sticking to our guns and saying
well they can't have it you know and well they
have to do it actually how can we adapt this
activity to make it achievable in this moment
because it's clearly even though it was achievable
yesterday or five minutes ago it clearly isn't
achievable now how can we adapt to them because
otherwise we're just going to break down that
trust yeah that was one of the all of this conversation
actually is is how rise therapy came about I
was finding myself naturally adapting all these
systems and thinking, why? Why doesn't this feel
good for me in my class? Why does this feel like
a backward step for us? Why does this feel like
it's breaking down our relationship? It just
doesn't feel new or affirming. it doesn't feel
like i'm accepting all of the ways that they
naturally play naturally explore the world naturally
learn naturally communicate and i want to celebrate
those how can we do that um and that was the
basis of rise therapy which i know that you've
been using as well do you want to tell us a little
bit more about how you kind of found that and
how you've been finding embedding that in some
of your practice yeah so i kind of started off
by yeah just sort of like doing a bit more research
watching your like in Instagram clips with the
demos and, you know, looking at kind of what
approaches can we sort of use as a way of, I
guess, supporting regulation, having more of
a shared experience, you know, and looking at
that as an alternative to sort of more, I guess,
interventions that aim to develop neurotypical
attention styles, for instance. So that's how
I... i first kind of came across it was i was
doing a bit of research to think i think we could
do some tweak into what we already have but what
might this look like i think i knew the staff
will want structure as well so it felt like the
perfect sort of intervention and how i started
was just to try and like you know train staff
on what some of those compliance -based principles
are that are linked to the approach they're currently
using then starting to introduce more neuro affirming
um principles and then i knew because like it's
all good and well saying you know this approach
is client space these are the principles but
then it's that what might that then look like
have you got any examples as well you know i
think it is good to have something up your sleeve
you know just because some of these Traditional
approaches are so integrated in schools and you
know across the borough I work in so I knew that
would be a big battle to come in and say look
and I wasn't saying that all the principles to
that approach were, you know, non -neurothermic.
There was lots of great, I guess, principles
within it, especially like the sensory learning
and things like that. And then it was just about
like, how can I support the staff to set up Rise
in school? And that was agreeing core words.
So we thought about things, you know, things
that they're going to need throughout the day,
things like saying stop, you know, asking for
help. saying finished so it was those core communication
intentions the majority of kids I work with in
one particular school are GLPers so it actually
worked quite nicely because I could then adapt
those core words into phrases as well so like
I'm finished and I need help that kind of thing
so that's what I've been starting to set up and
modeling I think now it's more sort of like looking
to see how the adults are doing you know those
who have modeled it to is there any extra advice
i can give i think so far it's been you know
really positive um it's just now yeah is there
anything i can add and i can maybe like observe
them running it just to sort of try and make
it as robust as possible as well but yeah so
far so good It does make sense. So for those
that haven't heard of rise therapy, it's a four
step system of and led by the learners. And so
the pace is led by the learners and you moving
from step to step is led by the learners too.
And if you only, if they're only ready for step
one and you just do step one, that's also good.
And that was the fundamentals of this neurofaring
practice. Remember, we're listening to them.
We're helping them to understand their bodies
and when they need to move on and when they don't.
So step one is all about regulation and reconnection.
So it's all about connecting after anything that's
broken down, any broken promises that have happened
all throughout the day. We break promises all
the time as practitioners. Even if we don't know
we have, you know, a learner might have been
expecting a certain snack and then it's not in
their lunchbox and we've broken that promise,
you know. Maybe we've made a change to the timetable.
Maybe the photographer's in the hall and the
PE can't happen. Maybe it's raining so we have
outdoor play. All of those kind of broken promises
throughout the day. So step one's all about reconnecting,
co -regulation, and yeah, regulating together
and connecting together in a beautiful intensive
interaction kind of way, if you know that term.
And then step two, if they're ready, is about
a lead adult stepping away. and inviting them
into a group type scenario. So it will be highly
visual, highly motivating. And the idea is that
we want the learners to notice this and come
on over on their own terms or not come over on
their own terms. And that is honored also if
they want to stay in step one or, you know, they
can observe, they can come on over. And the idea
is when they do come over, we start steps three
right away. They get right into the action straight
away. We've had learners to jump straight into
the tough trays. We've had learners sprinkling
things, banging things. They're in the action
straight away. They don't have to wait. They
want to explore. We've got their engagement.
We're going to validate that and celebrate that.
Step three is all about being alone together.
So playing in all of our own beautiful ways.
but alongside each other, because that's how
collaboration starts. That's how social interaction
starts. And we have seen some really lovely interactions
happening on their own terms, which is really
exciting. And meanwhile, the adults are kind
of validating all of the communication they see,
all the attempts, all of the social play attempts,
all of their play styles and all of those things.
Everything's safe. We are validating and modelling
back at them. And then step four, when we're
ready, when the learners are kind of... I feel
like they've had enough and you can see that
they're starting to disengage, maybe wander off,
maybe, you know, finish playing. It's time for
step four, which is ending. A whole section on
its own, all about the ending of a loved activity,
transitioning out of it and what that looks like.
So it looks like making a game out of tidying
up, a little bit Mary Poppins style. Find the
game in the tidying up so it's less triggering
and less dysregulating for our learners. And
also that they can see that it's visually and
slowly in their own time coming to an end. We
get rid of the visual clutter and they can see
that, you know, they can pace it out, that the
ending doesn't happen straight away. And we go
and get on with something else just as even more
exciting over the other women and they can join
again. Something that we noticed was I only wanted
to create this as a afternoon communication group.
offer activity lesson to replace some of the
more compliance -based practices that I was using
before. But actually what's happened is it isn't
a lone session at all. It's actually now kind
of bled into everything we do. So even when my
learner has to go to the toilet, for example,
we are using a rise -based approach to do that.
We're thinking, okay, we need to connect first
before we ask them to do this really tricky activity
for them. How can we make the activity as fun
and affirming as possible and validating for
them and their needs? And then how can we finish
this activity in a really positive and learner
play? And it's kind of, it's led into everything
really. So we call it RISE sessions, but actually
it seems to be like a RISE system more than that
because it really is embedded in the best. neurofirming
practice and I'm incredibly proud of it and we've
seen some amazing results I went to a school
just last week and I'd never met the learners
before they were early years absolutely gorgeous
and there was 10 early years autistic children
non -speaking that I'd never met before and ran
a rise session and every single one of them joined
it when they don't normally we had some beautiful
spoken and AAC communication And we finished
the activity regulated and having had a really
great time. And that would just never happen
in a brand new class that I'd never met before
with other practices that I've used in the past,
which just shows that the learners were heard.
They were invested. They wanted to be there.
And all of a sudden there was no behaviors because
they wanted to be there. And often crisis behaviors
and hurting behaviors come from two things, either
not feeling heard and understood and things feeling
triggering for them. and then being made to do
it or a sense of not um dysregulation as in the
sensory wise and i feel like rise listens to
their sensory needs and regulation all the way
through and it also helps them to feel heard
which so we just we're just not seeing as much
of that um spiking behavior yeah i don't know
what you've found yes so i've really liked it
so that's what you said about like some of those
i guess key principles as well like that connection
with the child and i think having that time to
regulate at the beginning and it kind of reminds
me of the there's like a triangle model the Taylor
Trott pyramid of learning you know where it starts
with the central nervous system then it's like
sensory systems the auditory and visual processing
language then learning it's just so nice to sort
of it's so funny you mentioned that because that
is absolutely the fundamentals of everything
I do if you want to look at it up it's called
the pyramid of learning and yeah it's so true
it The sensory system is the basis of all learning.
And then right at the top of this pyramid is
academic learning. There's no way we could get
to that point without all of these fundamental
skills learned beforehand. Definitely. And I've
really found like the shared experience because
there's no kind of demands on the turn taking
as well. You know, mother approaches focus more
on like. you know that i guess yeah every child
has to wait their turn which is just really tough
for a lot of neurodivergent children and you
know it's such there's so fun activities that
you're like oh you just want to get your hands
on them anyways honoring that's just really lovely
and i quite like that like you know a lot of
the activities as well you can have say you know
you're doing the word i think it was the one
with more and it's kind of like putting the lentils
in the jug and then pouring it but everyone gets
a cup and the fact that everyone's got a cup
and can do it in their own way allows us then
to like model language whilst they're like focused
on that like play it could be more but it also
could be in and out it could be it could be sprinkles
yes yes it's really flexible and that's what
i've said to like the adults working with kids
who are doing it throughout the week is that
you know, I worked on this word with this material,
but you can also like recycle a lot of the resources
as well, you know, change things up. And that
has been nice. A lot of the things we've been
doing have been available in the environment
as well, which is really nice. We were really
aware that was actually one of, there was two
things on our list that we had to include that
we could never include in the previous ways we've
been doing communication sessions. One of them
was to include PMLD and visually impaired learners,
because for the... practice that we were using
before it was very very exclusive for non -ambulant
learners so learners that couldn't get themselves
to the area um and how do we measure compliance
in that like how do we measure their consent
in that if we're like pushing them there and
you know say like not giving the option to not
be there and so it had to be that and then also
It had to be affordable. It had to be doable
with one adult and it had to be affordable with
stuff that you've already got because we have
no budget and teachers and TH and assistants
and SLTs were using their own money to buy all
these really expensive resources and being asked
to change it over regularly so that it's kept
exciting. Well, actually, if we think really
creatively about using... these a cup and lentils
i tell you what we could do that for a whole
term i promise you if we are really creative
with it we could use them in all sorts of ways
so then we're making our budget stretch more
we also really really really celebrate repeating
your sessions we want you to repeat the session
three or five times before changing it over so
you're getting so much use out of these resources
that you've put together and the time you've
spent to put together and plan it We do that
for that reason, but also because we've noticed
that learners need repetition in order for their
anxiety to reduce and for their learning and
understanding to build. And what we're noticing
is maybe on session one, the learner was just
observing and didn't want to come over at all.
And by lesson five, they're in the action. Sometimes
it takes that repetition. And it's been nice
as well because I've done it with sort of like
younger kids and older ones, you know, and it's
worked. as well for both of my groups which is
really nice you know um i think just because
the activities are really fun and sensory friendly
and so they've been perfect for like a resource
base at the minute yeah i am really aware of
you know we have got beginner training on the
rice therapy sessions .com website we've also
got level one training as well level one i mean
it's hard to get it It's beautiful on social
media and it works really well, but it is a one
size fits all on social media because I always
use a tough tray and I'm always gearing it towards
learners that are like in my class. Whereas what
I've noticed that going around schools and doing
training is I'm adapting my practice so much,
but I can't translate that into social media.
So I might be using a tough tray on a stand.
I might be using, and one of the practitioners
that did the level one training recently said,
well, I've got way too many learners. I've got
12 learners. We can't all share one tough tray.
So she put out some, a massive sheet of, what's
it called? The plastic sheet. and then rolled
a towel all the way around the edge so they could
all get in because they all wanted to get in,
which is fabulous. We've got one of the directors
that does it at a table. We've got a couple of
people that use it on individual trays and they
do it in a way smaller group. So also, again,
even my neurofaring practice can become compliance
-based if you're copying what I'm doing exactly
and not translating into your room for your learners.
I want you to take what I've got and I want you
to adapt it. edit it make it suit your learners
maybe your learners are super into minecraft
mine aren't do minecraft you know don't just
take my word as you know be all and end all like
i want you to take this and translate it And
that is neuroaffirming too. It would be compliance
-based if you were copying my plan exactly. Definitely.
And sticking to the plan and not reading what
your learners are telling you. 100%. As long
as you've got those core neuroaffirming principles
in mind, you can apply them to, yeah, any situation,
activity. Yeah, I love to hear that you're using
it. I mean, it's an honour really that such highly
skilled speech and language therapists are using
my system. I mean, that is... incredibly validating
for me and it's so wonderful to hear that you
are seeing what I'm seeing it's really exciting
brilliant even being there is just it's I can't
tell you how exciting that is so I suppose a
summary of this podcast I wrote this out before
and I wonder if it is the summary I'd like to
hear your thoughts I've written while a level
of compliance is necessary for a safe and functional
school like following safety procedures Excessive
compliance -based practice can overshadow learning
goals, leading to a system that prioritizes efficiency
over deep, meaningful learning. Many modern educators
seek to move beyond compliance to foster engagement
and student agency. I'd love that to be the kind
of takeaway of this episode today. And I suppose
if you're not sure about what you're doing is
compliance based or neuro affirming, think about
that. Do my students have agency? Do they have
opportunities to consent over this or not? What
are they telling me with their body language?
And then am I listening to that? I suppose. Definitely.
And I think like things like, you know, universal
supports that sometimes are a bit easier are
just like. you know having something available
for everyone sometimes is better than sort of
nothing available you know that could be like
thinking about yes exactly yeah and actually
looking more at like you know maybe like everyone's
energy levels i really like that concept of energy
quite concrete and easy to sort of like access
for a lot of neurodivergent kids but if everybody
was sort of Checking in and then also accessing
something as well to help regulate them. You
know, any little things that are quite easy as
a universal support. Yeah. And as adults, just
sort of like modeling like our own, you know,
like today I've got my fidget toy. Like, yeah,
they're quite similar. I love that. You know,
us modeling that within the classroom in our
sessions. and i feel that is quite a nice kind
of response to what i said earlier with the whole
body listening is what do we need then what can
support our bodies to listen instead of trying
to do it in a way isn't it it's taking okay well
yes of course we want our bodies to listen but
what that looks like is different and it's what
scaffolding needs to be in place in order for
my learners to listen in that way and it could
be a highly robust movement break that's totally
bespoke to them that helps them be regulated
so they can focus for longer rather than just
asking them to do it you know yeah putting that
support in place yeah i love that and there's
so many different places to go if you're thinking
oh i want to get this all in place there's so
many different places to go if you want more
information on rise therapy then go to risetherapysessions
.com i'll leave the link down to that um below
and milana if you want to leave anything other
Links down below that your systems that you're
really enjoying. Intensive interaction was mentioned.
That's a fantastic one. I'll leave that live.
But anything else, please contact Milan. Follow
him on at the underscore ADHD underscore SLT.
You are fabulous. And it's so wonderful to talk
to you. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much
for having me.