WEBVTT

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Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education

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teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything

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communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson

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ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged

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4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in

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the field answering your questions and sharing

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our knowledge and experience working alongside

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our beautiful young people. Let's get started.

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Hello everybody and welcome to the Sensory Classroom

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podcast. My name is Jordan. Today I'm joined

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by Kelly from Born Anxious which is a clothing

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brand but actually so much more than that. It

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is pure advocacy in every form. Kelly wears a

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lot of hats as mum and neurodivergent herself

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and the clothing brand and everything else that

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we'll delve into today and I'm really happy to

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have her on today. Hi Kelly. It's so nice to

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be in the space. It's nice to be sitting down.

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I bet. You look busy. You wear a lot of hats.

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yeah it's busy we've got a good flow though like

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I just think don't interrupt the flow you know

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living in a way where you have to remove demands

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it actually just puts you in a different pace

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I think because you can't have demands so therefore

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you're removing time demands for you as well

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so people say you're so calm and I just think

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well don't have a choice Yeah. And how long have

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you lived like that? Talk to us about your family

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set up. Yeah, so my family set up is I've got

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two older children. So we were very, you know,

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quite neurotypical, really. 2 .4, you know, they

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met all their milestones when they should have

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done. And maybe the most worrying thing was what

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bow we were going to wear in our hair or friendships.

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And my history is I grew up in a house that fostered.

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So I've always been very advocacy led. I've always

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been quite limitless. I've always been quite

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challenging of not rules, but I've always had

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quite a deep set real thing about injustice.

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Yeah, like moral compass is quite strong and

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you're the voice for others maybe. Yeah, like

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my values are really ingrained in me. Like I

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can't move away from them. I'm flexible, but

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there are some things, you know, that I suppose

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maybe a bit of subconscious bias in terms of

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pre -set ideas. but more about the stuff that

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matters and less about the stuff that doesn't

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matter. So I've had a career in fostering. I

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was a director of a fostering agency that my

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parents set up. It was a real family thing. We

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all worked there until Oscar was around three.

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I worked in a placement team, so lots of matching

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for children. you know, rebuilding and putting

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the pieces of that mirror together and understanding

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and accepting that it might all go back together,

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but it's not the same. So how can we look at

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different endings and how can we rebuild? Because

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you can, you don't recover from things, but you

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can move in different ways and celebrate different

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plans. Did you know that? have you yeah we did

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full long -term respite and emergency yeah we

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did it for about two three years amazing yeah

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so I've got a huge heart for that I totally get

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how that could shape you as a person having grown

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up in that world yeah Yeah. And then to go on

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and be part of the framework of, you know, and

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understanding, I think, the landscape of it,

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but also from a lived experience point of view.

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I think there always needs to be lived experience

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wherever there are decisions of people that maybe

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are not the centre of their story. And I think

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that's where it crosses over into SEND and autonomy

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and all of those things. Because when I had Oscar,

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we were moving in a very different way. You know,

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I was like, oh, he's the third baby, he's just

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lazy. You know, I had two other kids that did

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everything for him until he was nine months old

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when he had quite a bad accident that hit his

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head. We were abroad at the time. He had... a

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bad accident where he fell he was a very lively

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baby and he put his feet on the table pushed

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himself back and hit his head and he was unconscious

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for about 45 minutes so and we were in France

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at the time so my husband then past tense my

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husband um we had to navigate our way through

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France with two very worried children, six and

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11. I had Oscar in my arms. I didn't even put

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him in his car seat. He was just out. And, you

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know, it's very sobering at that time because

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you don't know if they're OK. And I just happened

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to check his pulse because I thought he'd broken

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his neck. We got there and it was a very different

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experience. They took him away from me. They

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wouldn't let me in the room. He was concussed.

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He was okay in the end. And I was peering through

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and he was pulling the phone off the wall and

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like shaking the bath. He's fine. But what happened

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following that is he started to present very

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differently, very quickly. And I don't know whether

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or not that was in line with the headbang or

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because he wasn't doing those things anyway,

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developmentally. And we were then expecting him

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to, but there was a sudden change. And he, when

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we came back to the UK, he had lots of exploration

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and lots of doctors involved with him. And he

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had an MRI and they came back and said, there's

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no, they didn't see any brain injury at that

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time, but they did see lots of, he had all his

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blood testing done and everything. There was

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no duplications. There wasn't any chromosome

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or anything. But they then begun an assessment

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and they diagnosed him as autistic just before

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he was two. Okay, wow. And then what followed

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then was a few years of me going, why have I

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got the angry one? Why are all these other children

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that are autistic doing other stuff? Like, it's

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more than that. It's definitely more than that.

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And obviously, I always had neurodivergence and,

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you know. lots of other things on my radar because

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of the referrals that I'd read for so many years

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and I kind of knew that Oscar was a big profile

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but I was just going to let him... grow into

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himself like none of it seemed to be affecting

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him right and I wanted to just wait and see but

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it's been a bit like peeling an onion my children

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obviously were my other two children were obviously

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very thrusted into being the young carer that

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I had always been and they took to it like ducks

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to water you know they've always advocated for

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Oscar I always think if you want to know how

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to treat an autistic child look at their siblings

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and it's so true there's an acceptance there

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of he's got a personality in that sibling group

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yeah and the rest is not isn't it I totally see

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that the sibling yeah that is so true and that's

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something that I didn't consider but yeah there's

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I've met so many wonderful siblings through teaching

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and it is just unconditional acceptance love

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advocacy yeah I totally agree and they haven't

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chosen you know I choose to be a teacher of SEND

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They haven't chosen this, but they absolutely

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rise to... Well, the thing is, I think it's because

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they see him first. Yes. They didn't have a preset

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idea of what he would be like. Just is. They

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know he's just like this. To them, that's him.

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You know, and I think as a parent, because we

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were modelling parenting based on our other children,

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we may have had a preset idea of what he might

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have been like. So for us, there's not losses,

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but there's different paths and different understandings.

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But for siblings of children with SEND, they

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just see them. And that's, it's lovely. Yeah.

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But it comes with challenges and barriers, but

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it also comes with lots of celebration. You know,

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I managed to, I think your childhood is the most

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precious thing. And if it gets broken. You can

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repair it. But for me, I managed... My two older

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children, they're now nearly 19 and 23, both

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believed in Santa until they were 16, wholeheartedly.

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They would say to me, Mum, they've said that

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he's not real, but I can feel it. Like, how ridiculous.

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Like, imagine not believing. And I kept that

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until they were 16. So I think what having a

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child with multiple complex disabilities brings...

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is a real age of innocence over your house. And

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I really celebrate that. And I feel a bit smug.

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Yeah. I feel smug because there's so many things

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with Oscar that we don't have and that we can't

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have. But if you balance it out and you reframe

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it and you look at the things you do have, you

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know, I have a 12 -year -old who wakes up every

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morning like it's Christmas Day. Yeah, that's

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magic. And so present, I guess, as well. That's

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something I notice in the... children that i

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have the privilege of working with is is always

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just in the now there isn't there isn't a thought

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about you know what happens next week or you

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know it's it's all so present there's no rush

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it is just what is interesting now and often

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they notice things that we are too busy to notice

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i i remember it was about 10 years ago actually

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that i was working with some teenagers and he

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said look at the trees and I was like oh yeah

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the trees yeah nice he's like no the gaps between

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the trees and I was like oh my god yeah like

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the light was coming through the gaps in the

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trees and I wouldn't have stopped and looked

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at that you know but it is like an awesome experience

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when you stop and are told to like just stop

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and look at how amazing this world is or this

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shadow is or this stimmy toy is or whatever it

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is it is that reminder of just slow down And

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no tears. I think for families as well, you know,

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there are deficits, there are barriers, there

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are things that we work through. But what we

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get to experience is joy. Real joy. Joy that

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you can't set up. You know, Oscar's most absolute

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favourite thing in the world is the wind. He's

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12. He laughs. And you can't make that for him.

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So it's magic when it just is. Like this week,

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I can imagine it's amazing because it has been

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so windy. He's got a kite and it is the most

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simple kite. It's bigger than him. It's got three

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strings. You put it up and it just goes. And

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it's absolutely stunning because he's running

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around the garden and he's flying. I mean, he

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did put it down on the ground. He sat on it because

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he wanted to go riding on it. But there's an

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element of Oscar that is so split. And I think

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that's the ADHD and the autism working together.

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And then when you add learning disability on

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top, you know, because he's got a real lack of

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understanding of danger and he's so innocent

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and he needs help with everything, dressing,

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everything he needs help with. But he'll walk

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past you and just give you a couple of Stormzy

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lyrics. And you just think it's a reminder that

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you have to add his personality on the top. And

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you have to not assume that he doesn't want to

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take part in things that are age appropriate

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too. There's a real, you never know which...

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what zone you're going to be in. So you just

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have to be open to all of it. I just recently

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took him to a soft play and the lady came to

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see me and she said, are you the mum of the boy

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with the iPad? And I said, yes, I am. And she

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said, would you be able to come with me because

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he's running around the car track the wrong way?

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And I went, which we like that motion. She said,

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but we're trying to find his trousers. And what

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happened was. Oscar has very, very severe ARFID

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and he's under the crisis service at Evelina.

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So every month after weigh -in, there's always

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a pound in it whether he's going back in the

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crisis service or if we're not. So he's very

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slim and he wears trousers that are about seven

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to eight. And it was his birthday and I put this

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big baggy pair of skateboarding trousers on him

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thinking that he was going to look cool with

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a drawstring. Well, as he's running, these trousers

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just keep falling down. So he's obviously thought,

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oh, sod it, I'll just take them off. No one will

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mind. I mean, he's tiny. He's not a 12 -year

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-old. But I wanted to, I have things, you know,

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like when my son started secondary school, he

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really wanted to wear a pair of Calvin Klein

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boxer shorts. So when Oscar started secondary

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school, Oscar wore a pair of Calvin Klein boxer

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shorts. Because I think you don't treat... different

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you if that's what his brother wanted i don't

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know he might have wanted that it's an opportunity

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right and then he can always say no or show no

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or gesture no however he communicates that but

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it's just always say no yeah right so it's just

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giving that opportunity isn't it and it's in

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its person appropriate so it could be nursery

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rhymes one day and mr tumble and it then it could

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be like you say stormzy and calvin climax i'm

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sure it's the next and it is almost it is you're

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right it's being open to All of it. And all at

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once. Because you've got teenagers coming up,

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haven't you? I know. You've got teenagers. But

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also his disability, like learning disability

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will make that look different. But his body's

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still growing. It's such a confusing time for

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everybody to navigate. Well, I think that things

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can be confusing if you make them. I think that

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we just concentrate on happy being me. Where

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am I at today and what can people do to aid me

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in where I'm at? So I'm quite good at being a

00:14:32.820 --> 00:14:35.679
behaviour detective. He can't always tell me

00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:38.360
how he's feeling or what he's experiencing. He

00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:41.139
definitely shows me. I definitely know those

00:14:41.139 --> 00:14:44.559
signs of if he needs to take his shoes and socks

00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:46.379
off and go and run around in the garden and connect

00:14:46.379 --> 00:14:48.700
because he'll become heightened, heightened,

00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:50.720
heightened. And it's like being on a stag do.

00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:54.370
He's so loud. And he'll run around the house.

00:14:54.470 --> 00:14:56.750
And I think we need just nature. We just need

00:14:56.750 --> 00:15:00.409
to get out. We need grass or water or wind or

00:15:00.409 --> 00:15:05.169
whatever it is. And he doesn't have a very big

00:15:05.169 --> 00:15:08.730
energy space because he's always in a calorie

00:15:08.730 --> 00:15:11.490
deficit. I take him somewhere and he'll be having

00:15:11.490 --> 00:15:14.049
the best time. And then after 15 minutes, you

00:15:14.049 --> 00:15:18.269
see him completely drained and he's empty. So

00:15:18.269 --> 00:15:23.000
for that, I feel I need to... give him sensory

00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:27.720
breaks rather than a lot of input because actually

00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:31.899
I'm forcing him to being empty and then he has

00:15:31.899 --> 00:15:36.179
to try and so I do little sensory snacks you

00:15:36.179 --> 00:15:39.980
know we might run around five minutes before

00:15:39.980 --> 00:15:42.559
we've got to go somewhere in the car it won't

00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:45.320
be let's get 20 minutes getting ready to go on

00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:48.509
a trek because his body just can't, you know,

00:15:48.509 --> 00:15:50.629
and he's got a wheelchair and when he gets empty,

00:15:50.850 --> 00:15:54.029
he'll get in it and he'd just recharge. But for

00:15:54.029 --> 00:15:56.009
him, I think it's about just meeting him where

00:15:56.009 --> 00:15:58.690
he's at and just being open to, if we're facing

00:15:58.690 --> 00:16:01.090
less barriers and challenges that day, you're

00:16:01.090 --> 00:16:04.230
going to see a little bit different. You know,

00:16:04.289 --> 00:16:06.870
he presents lots of, he's got lots of different

00:16:06.870 --> 00:16:11.029
profiles and he is quite spiky, but he's also

00:16:11.029 --> 00:16:15.509
very, he's a real black and white concrete thinker.

00:16:16.169 --> 00:16:19.590
So it's either all right or it's not. Right.

00:16:19.629 --> 00:16:21.549
There's no in between. There's no middle ground.

00:16:22.309 --> 00:16:25.909
No. And it can change really quickly. How do

00:16:25.909 --> 00:16:28.990
you navigate that? So how do you, is it like

00:16:28.990 --> 00:16:31.490
tiptoes? Could it be different every day? Are

00:16:31.490 --> 00:16:33.830
you always like waiting for the change? Are you

00:16:33.830 --> 00:16:36.389
finding that? Or, you know, how do you navigate

00:16:36.389 --> 00:16:38.929
that? I've been walking on eggshells for about

00:16:38.929 --> 00:16:42.440
eight years. And Oscar was very heavily medicated

00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:44.440
in his younger years. And I used to feel like

00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:47.019
he was stuck behind a sheet of glass. Like it

00:16:47.019 --> 00:16:49.460
was like you're masking it. You're not really

00:16:49.460 --> 00:16:51.940
helping him manage it. And when he went into

00:16:51.940 --> 00:16:54.080
the crisis service at Evelina, they said, look,

00:16:54.139 --> 00:16:55.960
this is going to be terrifying for you because

00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:58.039
I know that this medication has given you a bit

00:16:58.039 --> 00:17:01.039
of a comfort blanket. But what we want to do

00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:03.159
is wean him off everything so that we know what

00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:06.180
his baseline is. His baseline was actually less.

00:17:07.049 --> 00:17:09.210
than what it was when he was on it and I think

00:17:09.210 --> 00:17:12.650
it's because he he's got that real interception

00:17:12.650 --> 00:17:15.549
he can really sense when there's a change in

00:17:15.549 --> 00:17:17.970
his body and that's actually making him more

00:17:17.970 --> 00:17:21.390
anxious so now because when you give him a drink

00:17:21.390 --> 00:17:24.390
he look because he'll only drink out of a bottle

00:17:24.390 --> 00:17:27.990
of water he'll study it he'll be like have you

00:17:27.990 --> 00:17:30.569
put anything in there and it took him a long

00:17:30.569 --> 00:17:33.490
time to stop doing that and I just thought I

00:17:33.490 --> 00:17:36.720
need him to trust me He's not going to willingly

00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:39.960
take anything. So you're removing his choice.

00:17:40.140 --> 00:17:42.019
You're giving him something that's making him

00:17:42.019 --> 00:17:44.819
feel different and making him really anxious.

00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:49.180
And now he's got that real trust of he's not

00:17:49.180 --> 00:17:54.880
on any meds. And so we're able to, I feel, de

00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:58.480
-escalate things when they go wrong because before

00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:01.500
he was having like a second wave of it. And I

00:18:01.500 --> 00:18:04.970
don't know whether or not that was. Because how

00:18:04.970 --> 00:18:09.349
he felt wasn't real enough for him. So I think

00:18:09.349 --> 00:18:14.549
he can trust his own feelings now. And he can

00:18:14.549 --> 00:18:19.410
feel where he's at. So he's more likely to be

00:18:19.410 --> 00:18:24.019
able to take a step down. rather than completely

00:18:24.019 --> 00:18:27.220
lose it. Because I think before he wasn't able

00:18:27.220 --> 00:18:29.619
to have that internal measure of where he was

00:18:29.619 --> 00:18:34.220
really at. He was just reacting. So his behavioural

00:18:34.220 --> 00:18:36.599
changes now he's not on meds are more deliberate.

00:18:37.700 --> 00:18:40.359
I'll notice he started to click his tongue. He

00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:43.640
makes like this rolling sound. His mouth is closed

00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:45.960
and he'll make a rolling sound with his tongue.

00:18:46.019 --> 00:18:49.819
It sounds a bit like a dolphin noise. And that's

00:18:49.819 --> 00:18:52.660
a sign he's becoming anxious. So then, you know,

00:18:52.660 --> 00:18:56.779
with him, I give choices. And I say, Oscar, outside?

00:18:57.380 --> 00:19:01.480
And he'll say, yes or no. He's very deliberate.

00:19:01.500 --> 00:19:05.539
He's very clear. But for him, he wants to be...

00:19:05.539 --> 00:19:07.339
I mean, before, when he was medicated, he couldn't

00:19:07.339 --> 00:19:11.319
even walk past a room. He would attack you. Because

00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:15.099
he was so anxious about the thought of you. Whereas

00:19:15.099 --> 00:19:17.900
now, we're not on the meds. His trigger is time

00:19:17.900 --> 00:19:22.059
demands. The minute you give him a demand, that

00:19:22.059 --> 00:19:25.759
clock starts ticking for him. So we don't have

00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:28.299
words. Not being quick enough, he's anxious about

00:19:28.299 --> 00:19:31.079
finishing what he's doing. What is it about that

00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:35.640
anxiety? Just in general, if you give him a demand,

00:19:35.900 --> 00:19:40.559
a verbal demand, he will then begin being anxious.

00:19:40.619 --> 00:19:44.420
So we remove words. We don't have words. We have

00:19:44.420 --> 00:19:50.289
visuals. We don't tend to use pecs because he

00:19:50.289 --> 00:19:55.650
wants to stim with it or hoard them. Anything

00:19:55.650 --> 00:20:00.450
that's real, he wants to collect. Okay. And when

00:20:00.450 --> 00:20:03.049
they try to do pecs with him, he would just give

00:20:03.049 --> 00:20:05.130
it back to them and go, I know this. Because

00:20:05.130 --> 00:20:08.410
for him, it was too hard to think about. So he

00:20:08.410 --> 00:20:11.210
just told them that he knew it. And I think a

00:20:11.210 --> 00:20:16.970
lot of those... processes are to do with an exchange.

00:20:17.609 --> 00:20:20.009
Yes. There's a child who doesn't want anything

00:20:20.009 --> 00:20:24.089
from anyone. He can't be bribed by food. He's

00:20:24.089 --> 00:20:26.430
not interested. He's not really that interested

00:20:26.430 --> 00:20:28.210
with bubbles. If you blow bubbles at him, he'll

00:20:28.210 --> 00:20:30.369
pop one and walk away from you, blow you out.

00:20:31.170 --> 00:20:33.730
It's all in the moment. If he's popped a bubble,

00:20:33.890 --> 00:20:35.509
he's not going to ask you for more because he's

00:20:35.509 --> 00:20:40.970
had one bubble and he's happy. Box ticks. So

00:20:40.970 --> 00:20:43.509
what we did was we got a Polaroid and we took

00:20:43.509 --> 00:20:47.210
photos of actual things that motivated him, which

00:20:47.210 --> 00:20:50.490
wasn't very much. It was a book, because he always

00:20:50.490 --> 00:20:53.069
had a book under his arm. It was a book, his

00:20:53.069 --> 00:20:56.329
muslin and his actual bottle of juice. So we

00:20:56.329 --> 00:21:00.029
would, I would put the muslin one on the stairs,

00:21:00.309 --> 00:21:05.009
the juice one on the fridge and, oh, and we had

00:21:05.009 --> 00:21:08.250
a stop sign. And then we grew it a bit bigger.

00:21:08.309 --> 00:21:10.809
So then we took a photo of the car. So we stuck

00:21:10.809 --> 00:21:13.910
that on the front door. We then took a photo

00:21:13.910 --> 00:21:16.049
of the climbing frame and stuck that on the back

00:21:16.049 --> 00:21:18.750
door. So it was very deliberate. It was, do you

00:21:18.750 --> 00:21:21.279
want that? And he knew what it was because it

00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:24.099
was a photo. Yeah, I love that. I love the Polaroid.

00:21:24.099 --> 00:21:26.000
I haven't considered that before. But they're

00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:29.579
a lovely size, aren't they? It's instant. So

00:21:29.579 --> 00:21:31.700
you don't have to wait, you know, printing time

00:21:31.700 --> 00:21:33.700
or whatever. There's no laminating to do. They're

00:21:33.700 --> 00:21:35.440
pretty hardy as well, aren't they? You can kind

00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:39.839
of wiggle them and they do last longer than printed

00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:42.559
paper. We backed it up with the word as well.

00:21:43.289 --> 00:21:45.890
So we used the same font that they use for communicate

00:21:45.890 --> 00:21:48.650
and print because we thought we might be able

00:21:48.650 --> 00:21:51.990
to move over to some visuals. He did accept the

00:21:51.990 --> 00:21:55.769
PEC symbol for stop and more eventually. But

00:21:55.769 --> 00:21:58.970
his now and next was very simple. It was photos.

00:21:59.569 --> 00:22:02.529
And then when he started school, I did a strip

00:22:02.529 --> 00:22:05.029
and every day we would stick on a photo of school

00:22:05.029 --> 00:22:07.509
or a photo of home so he knew what day it was,

00:22:07.670 --> 00:22:11.839
where he was going to be. And then before we

00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:14.660
moved outside of that style of communication,

00:22:15.099 --> 00:22:19.980
his words came, but they were only enough to

00:22:19.980 --> 00:22:22.519
get him what he needed. And that's still the

00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:26.500
same. It hasn't expanded. It's not like relationship

00:22:26.500 --> 00:22:33.269
building, conversational. No, no two way. Say

00:22:33.269 --> 00:22:36.829
this, get this. Say this, get this. Yes. So he

00:22:36.829 --> 00:22:39.829
says, Oscar likes. He'll come to you and he'll

00:22:39.829 --> 00:22:44.470
say, Oscar likes. And then he'll say the words.

00:22:44.490 --> 00:22:48.230
So he's asking you. And if you ask him a question,

00:22:48.430 --> 00:22:51.769
he won't answer you. He'll give you a block of

00:22:51.769 --> 00:22:54.970
information he's memorised from YouTube, probably

00:22:54.970 --> 00:22:59.470
in another language, as if to say, you're in

00:22:59.470 --> 00:23:03.210
my yard. I will communicate with you when I want

00:23:03.210 --> 00:23:06.710
because otherwise it's a demand. I mean, at night

00:23:06.710 --> 00:23:09.950
time, he knocks on his bedroom, on his bedside

00:23:09.950 --> 00:23:13.490
table and he talks to it. I think he thinks that's

00:23:13.490 --> 00:23:16.329
where the monitor is. So he'll order, but he'll

00:23:16.329 --> 00:23:19.650
order in an American accent. So he'll knock and

00:23:19.650 --> 00:23:22.609
he'll say, excuse me, ma 'am, could I get nice

00:23:22.609 --> 00:23:26.529
water? And that's him asking me for water. But

00:23:26.529 --> 00:23:30.609
it's a saying that he's learned. from somewhere.

00:23:30.809 --> 00:23:34.390
So that's what he'll do. He'll learn sayings

00:23:34.390 --> 00:23:38.509
and phrases, and then he will use them to ask

00:23:38.509 --> 00:23:41.289
for what he wants. So have you heard of Gestalt

00:23:41.289 --> 00:23:44.210
Language Processor? Yes. This is what it sounds

00:23:44.210 --> 00:23:47.650
like he is. So they kind of learn whole phrases

00:23:47.650 --> 00:23:50.970
that have meaning to them, even if it's not the

00:23:50.970 --> 00:23:52.990
meaning of the actual words, it has meaning to

00:23:52.990 --> 00:23:54.650
them. So, can I have a bit of water, please,

00:23:54.670 --> 00:23:57.430
mum, is, hi, ma 'am, can I have a bit of water?

00:23:58.460 --> 00:24:01.539
Yeah. So, yeah, the gestalt. And there are stages

00:24:01.539 --> 00:24:04.539
to that. Have you noticed that his gestalts have

00:24:04.539 --> 00:24:09.420
been added to or adapted in any way as he's been

00:24:09.420 --> 00:24:12.839
kind of using them? Yeah, so he does build on

00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:18.119
them, but also they have phases. And he does

00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:20.099
this with his eating as well. So he'll build

00:24:20.099 --> 00:24:23.839
up to five items and then he strips it back to

00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:26.970
the first one. So I've noticed that's what he's

00:24:26.970 --> 00:24:31.490
doing with his language building. He is learning

00:24:31.490 --> 00:24:34.289
and memorizing phrases from programs and he'll

00:24:34.289 --> 00:24:37.589
move through them. So it starts with My Petsaurus.

00:24:38.049 --> 00:24:41.869
It then goes to Bot and the Beasties. It then

00:24:41.869 --> 00:24:44.450
goes to Octonauts, which is more complicated

00:24:44.450 --> 00:24:49.970
and includes some imaginative play because he'll

00:24:49.970 --> 00:24:53.150
be using the figures. And then all of a sudden,

00:24:53.190 --> 00:24:57.349
when he gets to a limit, It's almost like it

00:24:57.349 --> 00:24:59.009
goes back to the beginning. It's fascinating

00:24:59.009 --> 00:25:02.309
that you've noticed that pattern because we do,

00:25:02.450 --> 00:25:04.710
with autistic children, there's lots of patterns

00:25:04.710 --> 00:25:08.410
and rigidity. And I think that's incredibly intuitive

00:25:08.410 --> 00:25:11.670
of you to see those patterns. You did a post

00:25:11.670 --> 00:25:14.849
earlier this week about his bed and the rigidity

00:25:14.849 --> 00:25:17.670
and patterns around that. It's quite ritualistic,

00:25:17.690 --> 00:25:19.309
isn't it? Are you all right talking a little

00:25:19.309 --> 00:25:20.710
bit about that? Because I feel like it's all

00:25:20.710 --> 00:25:26.839
linked, isn't it? Also as well, with the food,

00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:29.259
he'll only eat certain food groups when he's

00:25:29.259 --> 00:25:31.539
in the Petsaurus phase, and then he'll build

00:25:31.539 --> 00:25:33.720
on it when he goes to the Botanobesis phase,

00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:35.599
and then he builds on it again when he goes to

00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:37.859
the Octonauts phase. So when we're in the Octonauts

00:25:37.859 --> 00:25:42.240
phase, he'll eat skin off chicken, pepperoni

00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:47.740
off pizza, cheese off the cheesy pizza, and his

00:25:47.740 --> 00:25:50.630
crackers and his bread. So that's the five. But

00:25:50.630 --> 00:25:52.789
when he's in the Petsaurus phase, he'll only

00:25:52.789 --> 00:25:57.670
eat the crackers and maybe the bread. And I think

00:25:57.670 --> 00:26:00.849
he's memorised, actually, that actually as he's

00:26:00.849 --> 00:26:03.529
developed with his eating, that's what he was

00:26:03.529 --> 00:26:06.490
interested in watching at that time. So that's

00:26:06.490 --> 00:26:09.849
what it means for him. But he's going on to the

00:26:09.849 --> 00:26:14.230
collecting things. He's always had soft toys

00:26:14.230 --> 00:26:17.829
and they're his friends. So he will organise

00:26:17.829 --> 00:26:21.369
them in blocks. So he's got all of the Batgoat

00:26:21.369 --> 00:26:24.410
Yardigans toys and they've got to be together.

00:26:24.609 --> 00:26:27.309
And if he's in that phase, he'll talk to them

00:26:27.309 --> 00:26:28.890
and play with them and they're his friends. They

00:26:28.890 --> 00:26:32.009
mean a lot to him. Then started to become really

00:26:32.009 --> 00:26:35.269
obsessed with Pokemon and he started to collect

00:26:35.269 --> 00:26:39.279
those and he started to want to quiz me. on Pokemon.

00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:41.940
Now, if you've ever done a Pokemon quiz, there's

00:26:41.940 --> 00:26:45.000
thousands of them. So it was Pokemon. And then

00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:47.519
he started to like dinosaurs, but they had to

00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:49.500
be along the bottom of the bed. And I thought,

00:26:49.539 --> 00:26:52.859
hold on a minute. This is getting a lot. He then

00:26:52.859 --> 00:26:55.279
started to collect from around the house. So

00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:58.000
he always hoarded books and wooden peg puzzle

00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:01.079
pieces, but they all had a purpose and they were

00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:03.319
his thing. So when I used to pick him up from

00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:05.519
the assessment nursery, I would need to bring

00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:08.680
an exchange with me. Because he would have a

00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:12.059
particular comfort item there that he would carry.

00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:15.859
And he would be unwilling to let it go until

00:27:15.859 --> 00:27:18.539
I exchanged with him. Then he would be willing

00:27:18.539 --> 00:27:21.559
to put it back in its spot, pick it up next time.

00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:25.339
So he always had to have a comfort item. But

00:27:25.339 --> 00:27:27.559
he started to collect them in the bed. When they

00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:30.859
didn't have a purpose in the day. They became

00:27:30.859 --> 00:27:34.920
to have purpose at night and I noticed that he

00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:37.920
would be checking them. As the things got more,

00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:42.319
his checking got more. Now this was only then

00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:45.759
soft toys, but he then went round and collected

00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:49.519
all his baby books and wanted them in the bed

00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:53.279
as well. And it at one point got really, really

00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:55.039
bad and I said, you know what, we're going to

00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:56.920
have to get him a double bed because he was in

00:27:56.920 --> 00:27:59.829
that cot that was like an egg. And literally,

00:27:59.970 --> 00:28:03.009
in the end, there was only space for him. There

00:28:03.009 --> 00:28:06.930
was so much. But even in the cop days, I was

00:28:06.930 --> 00:28:09.130
having to take a photo of it before I made the

00:28:09.130 --> 00:28:12.769
bed. Because if anything was out of place, he

00:28:12.769 --> 00:28:15.750
would stay awake all night reordering it all.

00:28:15.990 --> 00:28:18.329
So I brought this up to his consultant many,

00:28:18.450 --> 00:28:21.150
many times. And she was like, you know, he's

00:28:21.150 --> 00:28:23.609
a bit young for any intervention, really. We

00:28:23.609 --> 00:28:26.710
just need to see where it's going. But at the

00:28:26.710 --> 00:28:30.319
point now is that... Oscar has suffered quite

00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:33.000
a few losses in the last year and a half because

00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:35.920
dad left the house and it's got worse. Like the

00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:39.579
hoarding and yeah. It makes sense. If he's feeling

00:28:39.579 --> 00:28:43.000
out of control of his world, if things have changed,

00:28:43.339 --> 00:28:45.839
then he's going to want to try and take some

00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:49.619
control back. I .e. food is a classic one. Holding

00:28:49.619 --> 00:28:52.859
bow because you can't make someone go. And yeah,

00:28:52.900 --> 00:28:55.369
hoarding because it's... It's trying to keep

00:28:55.369 --> 00:28:57.410
their world the same. It's trying to keep control,

00:28:57.569 --> 00:29:01.349
isn't it? How to manage that. But he'll cut you

00:29:01.349 --> 00:29:06.529
like a knife because I spoke to a psychologist

00:29:06.529 --> 00:29:09.049
about his loss because what he was doing was

00:29:09.049 --> 00:29:12.650
his dad gave him a phone for his birthday and

00:29:12.650 --> 00:29:15.509
it had lots of photos on it, like all our family

00:29:15.509 --> 00:29:17.809
holidays and everything. But he was going through

00:29:17.809 --> 00:29:20.589
photos and removing certain people that are not

00:29:20.589 --> 00:29:23.160
in our story now. because we've lost connection

00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:26.380
with the whole of his side of the family, aunties,

00:29:26.380 --> 00:29:28.000
uncles, cousins. He's making sense of it. He's

00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:30.740
compartmentalising that. He's remembering people.

00:29:31.180 --> 00:29:35.200
Right, interesting. Is that healthy, would you

00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:40.220
think? I think it is. Well, I think it is. What

00:29:40.220 --> 00:29:42.480
the psychologist said was he's just accepting

00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:47.160
a new part of the story. He's organising who's

00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:50.609
important and who isn't. um and he's removing

00:29:50.609 --> 00:29:53.690
people that don't have a purpose yeah or it might

00:29:53.690 --> 00:29:56.069
be i mean let's not assume right let's not assume

00:29:56.069 --> 00:29:58.109
that we know it could be that or it could be

00:29:58.109 --> 00:30:00.710
actually that's too painful to look at because

00:30:00.710 --> 00:30:02.849
i'll miss them but regardless of what that is

00:30:02.849 --> 00:30:06.009
both are okay aren't they it's obviously managing

00:30:06.009 --> 00:30:10.289
it if that's his understanding then it's more

00:30:10.289 --> 00:30:14.170
than okay We had lost before that because my

00:30:14.170 --> 00:30:16.710
best friend died and we became a bit blended

00:30:16.710 --> 00:30:21.869
because obviously she had children who came to

00:30:21.869 --> 00:30:26.089
stay regularly and they're part of our story.

00:30:26.690 --> 00:30:31.130
And I think Oscar understands loss. I think he

00:30:31.130 --> 00:30:34.269
does. I think he's got quite a grown -up understanding

00:30:34.269 --> 00:30:37.369
of loss. And obviously this loss is a bit ambiguous.

00:30:37.390 --> 00:30:41.799
It's not... It's not loss as you would understand

00:30:41.799 --> 00:30:45.440
it, but for him it's change. And I think he's

00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:49.819
really tightened in. But at the moment his hoarding

00:30:49.819 --> 00:30:52.019
is very much a celebration because they're items

00:30:52.019 --> 00:30:55.019
that he loves. Yeah, they're safety items, aren't

00:30:55.019 --> 00:30:58.220
they? We did have before when he really loved

00:30:58.220 --> 00:31:01.619
things, he had to destroy it. Really? And then

00:31:01.619 --> 00:31:05.619
he would be very sad. So if he opened a gift...

00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:08.660
that he really loved, and it was a book, he would

00:31:08.660 --> 00:31:11.640
have to destroy it. He would enjoy it, and then

00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:16.660
he would have to destroy it. As if I've controlled

00:31:16.660 --> 00:31:19.660
that, I've enjoyed it, and I loved it, and now

00:31:19.660 --> 00:31:23.079
it's done. Right. Like, it was so overwhelming,

00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:27.859
that laugh. It couldn't keep going. I always

00:31:27.859 --> 00:31:30.559
buy two. If I know he's going to love it, I buy

00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:35.839
two. And he'd never share attention. So he'd

00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:38.839
love you to sit next to him and enjoy a book.

00:31:39.220 --> 00:31:42.720
But you had to have your own. He was going to

00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:44.640
have your eyes out if you touched that book.

00:31:45.019 --> 00:31:48.039
But he'd be happy then. Oscar would have one

00:31:48.039 --> 00:31:50.720
and mummy or daddy would have one. And that's

00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:53.349
fine because you're not a threat now. Yeah, it

00:31:53.349 --> 00:31:57.410
is. He's in survival mode, isn't it? He's absolutely

00:31:57.410 --> 00:31:59.690
in fight or fright all the time. It must be a

00:31:59.690 --> 00:32:02.750
hard thing, mustn't it, for him? Yeah, well,

00:32:02.809 --> 00:32:05.490
this is when I thought of the word born anxious.

00:32:05.529 --> 00:32:07.490
It's because we couldn't quite put our finger

00:32:07.490 --> 00:32:09.630
on what was going on for him. And the consultant

00:32:09.630 --> 00:32:14.089
said he was just born anxious. He's surviving

00:32:14.089 --> 00:32:17.410
on probably a seven or eight naturally on that

00:32:17.410 --> 00:32:22.079
anxiety scale. So when you see that big explosion

00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:24.900
of it all coming out, what you need to do is

00:32:24.900 --> 00:32:27.880
reframe it and think how hard he's had to work

00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:31.859
at keeping the lid on. Don't look at the end

00:32:31.859 --> 00:32:35.119
result of it. Think about how hard he's worked.

00:32:35.420 --> 00:32:39.380
And I think that we don't concentrate enough

00:32:39.380 --> 00:32:42.980
on how hard our kids work at just being them.

00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:46.480
There's always a concentration on working a bit

00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:49.140
harder, being a bit more resilient. And I think,

00:32:49.140 --> 00:32:51.880
actually, why are we not celebrating how hard

00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:54.440
they're working or how resilient they are? Because

00:32:54.440 --> 00:33:00.279
for my kid, when the bomb goes off, he's actually

00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:03.299
been working really hard up to that point because

00:33:03.299 --> 00:33:06.339
it's there. It's not, whoa, where's that come

00:33:06.339 --> 00:33:08.859
from? It's always there. And I think that's where

00:33:08.859 --> 00:33:12.259
we meet him at. We meet him at... someone who

00:33:12.259 --> 00:33:16.099
is highly anxious all the time and we live in

00:33:16.099 --> 00:33:19.920
that way yeah which is a real invisible labor

00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:24.160
for parents of children that are anxious because

00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:28.200
trust me anything could happen risk assessing

00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:30.660
looking forward well I can't do that because

00:33:30.660 --> 00:33:32.200
then that will happen that and I've got to get

00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:34.819
that food in because then that would and oh they've

00:33:34.819 --> 00:33:36.519
changed the packet to that so I've got to do

00:33:36.519 --> 00:33:39.019
it it's like constantly risk assessing trying

00:33:39.019 --> 00:33:42.059
to protect them from any anything that might

00:33:42.059 --> 00:33:44.339
tip them over the edge of course you can't do

00:33:44.339 --> 00:33:46.680
that because the world isn't controllable but

00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:50.319
you try your best to and yeah I can imagine it

00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:54.420
absolutely it becomes it becomes your normal

00:33:54.420 --> 00:33:56.859
so for anyone else where you know if I was to

00:33:56.859 --> 00:34:01.019
sit down and say you know my son has autism ADHD

00:34:01.019 --> 00:34:05.619
dyspraxia a learning disability ARFID and he's

00:34:05.619 --> 00:34:09.460
got extreme anxiety somebody would go oh well

00:34:09.460 --> 00:34:12.699
I don't know how you do that but it's about adapting

00:34:12.699 --> 00:34:15.159
and learning to live in a different way I don't

00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:19.019
pick that up and carry it around it's been dropped

00:34:19.019 --> 00:34:23.280
on me so you you grow you learn you you adapt

00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:26.300
you learn to carry it and this is why I find

00:34:26.300 --> 00:34:29.659
that It can be quite weaponising when people

00:34:29.659 --> 00:34:33.059
say to carers, long -term carers, parent carers,

00:34:33.099 --> 00:34:36.320
you should take a break. Maybe I don't want to

00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:38.739
take that weight off because I might not be able

00:34:38.739 --> 00:34:42.760
to put it back on. It's like showing a homeless

00:34:42.760 --> 00:34:45.739
person where you live. You can't live here, but

00:34:45.739 --> 00:34:47.840
you can come and have a look round. No thanks.

00:34:48.519 --> 00:34:51.460
I don't want a night in your life. I don't want

00:34:51.460 --> 00:34:55.579
a night out at the theatre. with drinks and dinner

00:34:55.579 --> 00:34:58.159
and all of that because I don't get the freedom

00:34:58.159 --> 00:35:01.619
of it. I just get the experience of it, knowing

00:35:01.619 --> 00:35:05.699
that I'm going to step back into. So I don't

00:35:05.699 --> 00:35:09.139
want that. I want validation that I live different

00:35:09.139 --> 00:35:12.599
and I actually really like my life and I'm really

00:35:12.599 --> 00:35:15.719
proud of all the things that we've adapted to

00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:20.260
and carved out for us. And we're not apologetic

00:35:20.260 --> 00:35:23.900
about it. I love that. And I love to hear you.

00:35:24.179 --> 00:35:26.880
I really do love that about you and your account

00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:31.360
and your clothing. Everything shouts that, doesn't

00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:33.860
it? And I'm really pleased that the audience

00:35:33.860 --> 00:35:36.860
listening to this, of teachers and parents, can

00:35:36.860 --> 00:35:39.239
hear you say that. It's really important. Hard

00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:41.980
things are hard. Hard things are hard. Validate

00:35:41.980 --> 00:35:44.860
that for yourself. And say, you know what? I've

00:35:44.860 --> 00:35:47.940
worked really hard on myself. to live in a different

00:35:47.940 --> 00:35:51.400
way. And I'm proud of myself because it's not

00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:54.460
an overconfidence. It's an awareness of your

00:35:54.460 --> 00:35:58.719
skill, isn't it? And when we share parts of our

00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:01.119
lived experiences, the things that happen to

00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:03.599
us, the things that shape us, you're writing

00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:05.719
someone's survival guide for them. If you can

00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:07.420
give a little bit of yourself to someone and

00:36:07.420 --> 00:36:09.000
they're going to unpack it and it helps them,

00:36:09.179 --> 00:36:12.900
great. Because that's what I do. I've literally

00:36:12.900 --> 00:36:16.400
built myself on the wise owls that paid it forward

00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:19.159
to me. You learn from other people. And I think

00:36:19.159 --> 00:36:22.159
that what we need to do is just make allowances

00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:26.940
for the fact that some people work really, really

00:36:26.940 --> 00:36:31.880
hard all the time at a low level. The consistent

00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:36.079
hard work. It's not about the slog. It's not

00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:38.539
about getting yourself to burn out. You've got

00:36:38.539 --> 00:36:43.650
to keep well. Because for me, I feel like I got

00:36:43.650 --> 00:36:46.289
a job with Oscar that I didn't ever apply for,

00:36:46.329 --> 00:36:48.889
that I wasn't qualified for, that I've had to

00:36:48.889 --> 00:36:53.389
run with. And of course I accept it every day.

00:36:54.150 --> 00:36:57.989
I can't resign. And there's no days off and no

00:36:57.989 --> 00:37:02.650
one's coming. So build a palace, build something.

00:37:03.389 --> 00:37:06.650
Decide what you want to be from all of those

00:37:06.650 --> 00:37:10.559
things. They're not all bad. They're not, you

00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:14.219
know, it's not all bad. It is hard. It is consistent,

00:37:14.519 --> 00:37:18.460
but it's the life that we're in. And you know

00:37:18.460 --> 00:37:23.119
what? Not everyone gets one. You know, I think

00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:26.039
understanding loss and feeling loss is a massive

00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:28.860
part of our journey as well, because we have

00:37:28.860 --> 00:37:32.039
to celebrate the small stuff. We have to. There's

00:37:32.039 --> 00:37:35.159
glimmers in everything. There is. There's glimmers

00:37:35.159 --> 00:37:37.059
in everything. It happens in crowds as well,

00:37:37.079 --> 00:37:39.820
doesn't it? The loss and the celebration, it

00:37:39.820 --> 00:37:41.820
all happens all at once. Over the same thing

00:37:41.820 --> 00:37:44.980
sometimes. Yeah, and it's okay. It's okay to

00:37:44.980 --> 00:37:49.320
be a bit jealous of people. You know, it's all

00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:51.539
right to say, you know, well, you're just showing

00:37:51.539 --> 00:37:53.880
off now. You've slept all night, you know. It's

00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:56.780
like last night. I have to, I've trained my brain

00:37:56.780 --> 00:38:01.400
to celebrate something in everything. Oscar called

00:38:01.400 --> 00:38:04.539
someone a very bad swear word last night that

00:38:04.539 --> 00:38:09.400
rhymes with James Blunt. Very loudly. His diction

00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:13.639
was perfect. And you know what? I used to dream

00:38:13.639 --> 00:38:15.880
about what his voice would sound like. Yeah,

00:38:15.940 --> 00:38:20.079
absolutely. And when his voice came out, it was

00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:23.119
American. And he knew what it meant. You know

00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:25.039
what you were saying about, is it just thought

00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:26.699
learners? You know what you were saying about

00:38:26.699 --> 00:38:29.800
that? Yeah. Oscar's first word was, I love you,

00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:33.760
in a robot accent. Really? I got it on video.

00:38:33.900 --> 00:38:38.199
I was going, I was signing, I love you, like

00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:40.579
that. And he just said it. And everyone was like,

00:38:40.659 --> 00:38:43.400
good. But we have to assume competence, don't

00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:45.380
we? Because on my daughter's birthday, we were

00:38:45.380 --> 00:38:47.940
all singing happy birthday. And just as she was

00:38:47.940 --> 00:38:50.000
going to blow the candles out, Oscar started

00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:54.980
singing solo the entire song. Never done it since.

00:38:55.260 --> 00:38:58.440
Doesn't need to. The entire song, yeah. But for

00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:01.039
him, that is the thing. And that used to be with

00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:03.360
my other children as well. When my son started

00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:06.579
school, he was one of these kids that he didn't

00:39:06.579 --> 00:39:08.980
want me out of his eye line. And I used to have

00:39:08.980 --> 00:39:11.039
to say to him, we have to go to work. I have

00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:13.199
to go to work. You have to go to nursery. Mummy

00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:16.719
has to go to work because we need pennies. And

00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:19.059
he used to say, I don't like pennies. We don't

00:39:19.059 --> 00:39:22.030
need them. And when he went to school for the

00:39:22.030 --> 00:39:24.590
first time, he took his shoes off and he went,

00:39:24.670 --> 00:39:27.949
oh, well, that's done. So I said, well, no, you're

00:39:27.949 --> 00:39:30.050
going back tomorrow. And he went, no, I've been

00:39:30.050 --> 00:39:32.590
now. He thought the school was a one time thing.

00:39:32.769 --> 00:39:35.190
And I think Oscar's a little bit like him in

00:39:35.190 --> 00:39:37.929
terms of if he's done something, he doesn't see

00:39:37.929 --> 00:39:40.289
a purpose in doing it again. If he does a puzzle.

00:39:40.889 --> 00:39:42.670
He don't want to do it again. He's done it now.

00:39:42.869 --> 00:39:46.170
He is very like that. If he can't see a purpose,

00:39:46.570 --> 00:39:49.769
he'll do it once. He can write his name. If you

00:39:49.769 --> 00:39:52.889
ask him to write his name, he writes no. N -O

00:39:52.889 --> 00:39:56.730
-P -E. As if to say, I can write. There's no

00:39:56.730 --> 00:40:00.230
point in it. I'm over it. I've written my name

00:40:00.230 --> 00:40:04.409
once before. It's not for me. Kind of love that.

00:40:04.610 --> 00:40:08.269
I love the rebellion of that. Yeah. Well, that's

00:40:08.269 --> 00:40:10.150
why I did the inclusion revolution, because I

00:40:10.150 --> 00:40:13.570
think we all need to be autonomous. You make

00:40:13.570 --> 00:40:15.489
decisions every day about what you wear, how

00:40:15.489 --> 00:40:17.170
you wear your hair, what route you're going to

00:40:17.170 --> 00:40:20.570
drive in your car. Our kids don't. They get ferried

00:40:20.570 --> 00:40:22.710
about their whole life. Everyone makes decisions

00:40:22.710 --> 00:40:25.829
for them. And do you know what? Sometimes little

00:40:25.829 --> 00:40:29.349
people can teach us stuff. A lot, yeah. And we

00:40:29.349 --> 00:40:32.809
all assume that we know it all. And I think sometimes

00:40:32.809 --> 00:40:36.199
if Oscar's telling me no... I always listen.

00:40:36.280 --> 00:40:39.360
If Oscar makes a choice, I always listen. Because

00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:42.599
do you know what? He might know best. Yeah. He

00:40:42.599 --> 00:40:46.019
might. Absolutely. And that is the assuming competence

00:40:46.019 --> 00:40:48.440
thing, isn't it? That is what I mean by that.

00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:50.619
Let's assume that they know more than us and

00:40:50.619 --> 00:40:52.940
we have a lot to learn and they're our teachers.

00:40:53.179 --> 00:40:56.880
Absolutely. Well, unless he's saying, let's burn

00:40:56.880 --> 00:41:00.719
this down or let's blow this up. And that's where

00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:03.320
your parenting comes in of making people that

00:41:03.320 --> 00:41:05.659
same, right? But yeah, absolutely being open

00:41:05.659 --> 00:41:08.099
to being led by them is absolutely the way to

00:41:08.099 --> 00:41:10.780
go. Can we talk about the inclusion revolution?

00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:14.119
Can we talk about your brand and all of that?

00:41:14.219 --> 00:41:16.579
So let's talk about the inclusion revolution

00:41:16.579 --> 00:41:21.039
first. What is it that to you? Well, I think

00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:24.440
that it's about learning and parent carers for

00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:28.360
me are, you know, I give a salute to every parent

00:41:28.360 --> 00:41:31.699
carer and I think whatever mindset or mind frame

00:41:31.699 --> 00:41:35.760
or faith that you have, it's about learning to

00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:38.099
be, and I think all parent carers have had to

00:41:38.099 --> 00:41:42.480
do it, it's about learning to be bold in a gentle

00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:47.099
way. So all conversations are two -way. It's

00:41:47.099 --> 00:41:49.860
not about sitting on a pedestal assuming that

00:41:49.860 --> 00:41:52.400
everyone's not doing right for your child and

00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:56.349
you don't. Actually... You're the expert by experience.

00:41:56.409 --> 00:41:59.809
So if you don't educate other people in terms

00:41:59.809 --> 00:42:02.989
of what's right for you, don't accuse them of

00:42:02.989 --> 00:42:05.230
not meeting your need because actually that communication

00:42:05.230 --> 00:42:08.949
is two -way. So the inclusion revolution is about

00:42:08.949 --> 00:42:11.449
flipping the narrative about the us and them

00:42:11.449 --> 00:42:14.150
scenario. Now, we all know there are bad guys

00:42:14.150 --> 00:42:16.489
in services that don't want us to have a nice

00:42:16.489 --> 00:42:19.389
experience. And we all know that that's led by

00:42:19.389 --> 00:42:23.159
greed. But actually... Every other conversation

00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:26.559
that takes place about need needs to be a revolution.

00:42:26.679 --> 00:42:30.139
We do need to be really bold in a gentle way

00:42:30.139 --> 00:42:32.260
and say, do you know what? Come and take part

00:42:32.260 --> 00:42:35.480
in our conversation. We're not a hierarchy. We

00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:38.719
don't think we know it all. We do know things

00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:43.500
and actually we're willing to have that conversation

00:42:43.500 --> 00:42:46.179
because if you don't, there's always going to

00:42:46.179 --> 00:42:51.570
be conflict and I think then that allows... and

00:42:51.570 --> 00:42:55.210
challenge to be viewed in a negative way. You

00:42:55.210 --> 00:42:58.050
know, we're not a drain on society. We do need

00:42:58.050 --> 00:43:00.510
reasonable adjustments. We're not apologising

00:43:00.510 --> 00:43:04.130
for that. But we're also not demanding it because

00:43:04.130 --> 00:43:09.110
I think that there can be a view on parent carers

00:43:09.110 --> 00:43:11.730
and people with disabilities in general that

00:43:11.730 --> 00:43:14.489
there's an expectancy. And I think what that

00:43:14.489 --> 00:43:17.210
needs to be backed up with is in a reminder that

00:43:17.210 --> 00:43:20.139
actually they're human rights. Yeah. They're

00:43:20.139 --> 00:43:23.199
kind of in the Equality Act. So the inclusion

00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:28.079
revolution was about we don't actually have to

00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:31.500
explain why we need those things. They're human

00:43:31.500 --> 00:43:35.079
rights, actually. We're going to be really bold

00:43:35.079 --> 00:43:38.300
about showing you that, but in a really gentle

00:43:38.300 --> 00:43:41.280
way, and it's about composure. You can challenge

00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:45.610
opinions, but don't challenge the person. Because

00:43:45.610 --> 00:43:47.969
actually everyone's entitled to believe what

00:43:47.969 --> 00:43:49.889
they want to believe and in their own levels

00:43:49.889 --> 00:43:52.349
of understanding. You know, you have to meet

00:43:52.349 --> 00:43:55.090
people where they're at. Not everyone sees the

00:43:55.090 --> 00:43:57.670
picture as clearly as you. That's okay. We can

00:43:57.670 --> 00:44:00.070
have different conversations about inclusion

00:44:00.070 --> 00:44:05.269
based on people's, you know, intersectionality.

00:44:05.289 --> 00:44:07.809
Where are they from? Where are they living? What's

00:44:07.809 --> 00:44:11.730
their landscape? Let's not all sit in the suburbs.

00:44:12.539 --> 00:44:15.000
and talk about having a blue badge. Some people

00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:17.099
live in the city. They don't have as much available

00:44:17.099 --> 00:44:19.559
to them. They might live in an ethnic minority.

00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:22.619
They might live in a different religion. We have

00:44:22.619 --> 00:44:26.500
to open it up as a revolution of inclusion. It

00:44:26.500 --> 00:44:28.909
doesn't only look like one thing. and be a bit

00:44:28.909 --> 00:44:30.829
more open to it. And that's why there's all the

00:44:30.829 --> 00:44:33.670
colours there and because it's about encompassing

00:44:33.670 --> 00:44:37.170
all experiences of inclusion, good and bad. We

00:44:37.170 --> 00:44:39.650
always think inclusion, oh yeah, that's because

00:44:39.650 --> 00:44:41.530
they're not doing that or they're not doing this

00:44:41.530 --> 00:44:43.550
or I can't get this or I'm fighting for that.

00:44:43.829 --> 00:44:46.369
We have to fight for everything that we have

00:44:46.369 --> 00:44:49.809
and then we have to fight to keep it. So we need

00:44:49.809 --> 00:44:52.230
to be, I think, a lot of people, what they do

00:44:52.230 --> 00:44:56.260
is they fight to get what they... And then they

00:44:56.260 --> 00:44:59.059
go, okay, I've got that now. We need to not do

00:44:59.059 --> 00:45:00.900
that. We need to carry on fighting and go, okay,

00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:03.980
why couldn't I get that? Let's go back. Let's

00:45:03.980 --> 00:45:06.639
make it not about me. And let's go back to why

00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:09.199
we couldn't get that. What is there? Because

00:45:09.199 --> 00:45:12.559
when you meet a challenge, it will be because

00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:16.659
of, usually be because there's a lack of understanding

00:45:16.659 --> 00:45:22.820
about why that's needed. Yes, yes, yes. I always

00:45:22.820 --> 00:45:26.659
say this. If someone's been really unkind to

00:45:26.659 --> 00:45:33.059
you, be kind to them. Because there will be something.

00:45:33.539 --> 00:45:37.019
There'll be a bump in the road. Even if it's

00:45:37.019 --> 00:45:39.019
about money and the government and budgets, they

00:45:39.019 --> 00:45:44.519
clearly don't get it. why that's needed. So it's

00:45:44.519 --> 00:45:46.480
about sitting at a table, I think, with people

00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:48.579
and having a conversation because all of the

00:45:48.579 --> 00:45:50.900
best arguments that you can have are spoken.

00:45:51.719 --> 00:45:54.659
Because if you remove emotion from it and you

00:45:54.659 --> 00:45:57.239
look at that's how you make change, isn't it?

00:45:57.260 --> 00:46:00.000
Because if not, you're just being emotive. You're

00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:03.440
getting out how you feel. Yeah. Which is hard.

00:46:03.639 --> 00:46:08.420
It takes a lot more strength to do it gently,

00:46:08.559 --> 00:46:12.179
like you said. It takes a lot more energy to

00:46:12.179 --> 00:46:15.599
do that, doesn't it? It does. To keep composure

00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:18.719
and have that conversation. When it is emotional

00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:23.480
to you, it is personal to you. It's really, it's

00:46:23.480 --> 00:46:25.840
a big ask. I totally get what you're saying.

00:46:26.019 --> 00:46:28.980
I totally agree. I couldn't agree more. It's

00:46:28.980 --> 00:46:33.409
hard. It's really hard, but I always think sometimes

00:46:33.409 --> 00:46:37.010
I reach a level of angry where I actually feel

00:46:37.010 --> 00:46:39.929
calm. It's weird. Like, I've had some really

00:46:39.929 --> 00:46:42.969
big stuff happen, stuff where you've wanted to

00:46:42.969 --> 00:46:46.269
almost attack people because it's been quite

00:46:46.269 --> 00:46:50.150
ableist. And I've felt calm in those moments

00:46:50.150 --> 00:46:53.349
because I've thought, this person definitely

00:46:53.349 --> 00:46:55.670
needs something from me because they're not getting

00:46:55.670 --> 00:46:59.340
it right for me. So something's missing. You

00:46:59.340 --> 00:47:01.920
know, I've had doctors, Oscar had some exploration

00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:03.599
done when he was really young and had one of

00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:06.559
them EEG things and we went to the doctor afterwards

00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:08.679
and we didn't even get in the room and the doctor

00:47:08.679 --> 00:47:11.420
didn't even turn around. He just shouted out,

00:47:11.519 --> 00:47:14.659
your son is not epileptic, goodbye. And I went

00:47:14.659 --> 00:47:17.960
into the room calmly, closed the door, sat in

00:47:17.960 --> 00:47:22.920
the chair and I thought, no, I'm going to gently

00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:26.500
demand a conversation. I'm not accepting that.

00:47:26.559 --> 00:47:29.159
That's not... Whereas... Most people would have

00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:33.219
probably had really strong emotion and gone off

00:47:33.219 --> 00:47:35.199
in a half and had to go at the receptionist.

00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:38.019
And then the change happens. You're not changing

00:47:38.019 --> 00:47:40.860
the narrative. You're not helping the next person

00:47:40.860 --> 00:47:43.800
who also has that conversation put on them. It's

00:47:43.800 --> 00:47:45.460
just that cycle, isn't it? Whereas I suppose,

00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:47.599
yeah, you're right. To break that cycle, we have

00:47:47.599 --> 00:47:49.559
to do something different, which might be...

00:47:49.739 --> 00:47:52.099
leaving our ego and emotions at the door and

00:47:52.099 --> 00:47:55.039
actually educating in that moment which is really

00:47:55.039 --> 00:47:58.000
amazing that you did that because it's so hard

00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:01.420
to have a new mindset the neurotypical parent

00:48:01.420 --> 00:48:03.539
in me wanted to go and have a go at the receptionist

00:48:03.539 --> 00:48:06.900
and ruin her day but that's not her so I forced

00:48:06.900 --> 00:48:09.019
this guy to sit and have a conversation with

00:48:09.019 --> 00:48:13.539
me and he then basically gave me the evidence

00:48:13.539 --> 00:48:17.000
that I needed because he said he turned around

00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:21.349
and he said he looks nice and I went and he said

00:48:21.349 --> 00:48:24.610
big badge for you mum he almost looks normal

00:48:24.610 --> 00:48:30.369
so I literally I said wow wrote a report sent

00:48:30.369 --> 00:48:33.730
it in and he was actually reprimanded for being

00:48:33.730 --> 00:48:37.989
ableist and has been on courses and changed his

00:48:37.989 --> 00:48:41.150
practice so you can by meeting things in a different

00:48:41.150 --> 00:48:43.030
way which is really hard I'm not saying it's

00:48:43.030 --> 00:48:46.349
easy change practices that then impact other

00:48:46.349 --> 00:48:49.420
people What you have to not do is be a mirror.

00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:51.780
If someone ruins your day, you don't go and ruin

00:48:51.780 --> 00:48:53.420
someone else's day because it makes you feel

00:48:53.420 --> 00:48:56.159
better. Do you think that's easier when you know

00:48:56.159 --> 00:48:59.099
you've got community? Can you be stronger together?

00:48:59.300 --> 00:49:02.480
Is that the idea of the clothing brand? To kind

00:49:02.480 --> 00:49:05.260
of bring people in together to say, I'm not doing

00:49:05.260 --> 00:49:07.619
this alone. I don't have the strength to fight

00:49:07.619 --> 00:49:10.239
this or to have this conversation alone. But

00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:12.559
I can with you lot. We can all do a little bit

00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:15.199
together with whatever energy or capacity we've

00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:18.789
all got. It's a louder voice. if we do it together

00:49:18.789 --> 00:49:20.710
is that kind of the idea of the clothing there

00:49:20.710 --> 00:49:23.530
yeah like the narrative was when Oscar was really

00:49:23.530 --> 00:49:26.050
young I always felt on my own and it's a really

00:49:26.050 --> 00:49:28.309
lonely space when you've got lots of diagnosis

00:49:28.309 --> 00:49:30.889
going on no one can give you any answers you're

00:49:30.889 --> 00:49:32.809
not really sure why your child's presenting that

00:49:32.809 --> 00:49:35.429
way and no one comes around anymore you're a

00:49:35.429 --> 00:49:39.090
bit much and it's lonely and it's What born anxious

00:49:39.090 --> 00:49:42.550
is, is a conversation. It's a way of communicating

00:49:42.550 --> 00:49:45.489
when you are on a bus or wherever you are and

00:49:45.489 --> 00:49:47.590
you are full and you are completely absorbed

00:49:47.590 --> 00:49:50.449
in meeting the need of your child. You're communicating

00:49:50.449 --> 00:49:53.550
with people. It has the power to change your

00:49:53.550 --> 00:49:56.250
experience. I've had people give me a thumbs

00:49:56.250 --> 00:49:59.070
up and mouth, you're doing a good job. But would

00:49:59.070 --> 00:50:01.289
they have viewed him as naughty if I wasn't communicating

00:50:01.289 --> 00:50:05.750
his needs on the clothing? Probably. So that's

00:50:05.750 --> 00:50:07.960
what it was about. It was about... letting people

00:50:07.960 --> 00:50:11.159
know that maybe you're dealing with something

00:50:11.159 --> 00:50:14.420
maybe that they wouldn't have thought about.

00:50:15.260 --> 00:50:17.280
Yeah, I suppose it's making the invisible visible,

00:50:17.380 --> 00:50:22.539
isn't it? Also being, you know, a bit ballsy

00:50:22.539 --> 00:50:25.260
really in terms of, you know, be a nice human

00:50:25.260 --> 00:50:27.699
in the end. Don't argue with me, just be nice.

00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:30.340
That needs to be on a shirt. Have you got a shirt

00:50:30.340 --> 00:50:33.199
saying that? Yeah, be a nice human in the end.

00:50:33.280 --> 00:50:35.710
Yeah, we have. But, you know, first of all, the

00:50:35.710 --> 00:50:39.269
original collection was all about the person

00:50:39.269 --> 00:50:41.230
wearing it and how to communicate their needs.

00:50:41.389 --> 00:50:44.750
I do not like loud noise. I am anxious. All those

00:50:44.750 --> 00:50:47.489
really big things that look like a million and

00:50:47.489 --> 00:50:50.309
one other things. They look like reactions. They

00:50:50.309 --> 00:50:53.110
look like behaviour, which look like judgement.

00:50:53.949 --> 00:50:56.670
So it was about communicating all of those things.

00:50:56.730 --> 00:50:58.389
You know, if you're wearing something that says...

00:50:58.590 --> 00:51:01.050
I do not like loud noise. That's very deliberate,

00:51:01.130 --> 00:51:04.329
isn't it? I'm anxious, buffering, which is another

00:51:04.329 --> 00:51:06.269
one that I've got. You know, don't keep adding

00:51:06.269 --> 00:51:08.469
one more word in, one more action, one more.

00:51:08.570 --> 00:51:13.010
Just back off and let my son process what's going

00:51:13.010 --> 00:51:16.550
on. And he will respond to you when he, you know,

00:51:16.550 --> 00:51:20.010
all of those original collections. But then obviously

00:51:20.010 --> 00:51:23.309
when people start interacting with you and you

00:51:23.309 --> 00:51:26.590
start having feedback of that really changed

00:51:26.590 --> 00:51:29.500
my experience. I'm not feeling my own. I'm really

00:51:29.500 --> 00:51:33.420
feeling part of something now. You build community.

00:51:33.599 --> 00:51:37.300
You do start sharing other messages too. You

00:51:37.300 --> 00:51:39.860
know, we have one that says, be a nice human

00:51:39.860 --> 00:51:42.980
in the end. We have one saying, don't judge others,

00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:45.900
improve yourself. So they're very deliberate

00:51:45.900 --> 00:51:50.840
messages, but some people feel that that's a

00:51:50.840 --> 00:51:54.980
little bit overconfident. But I think you just...

00:51:55.179 --> 00:52:00.760
You can apply, you know, but they're organic

00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:03.579
label free because the sensory elements of it.

00:52:03.619 --> 00:52:05.739
Because until Oscar was about three, he was naked.

00:52:05.900 --> 00:52:08.239
He would not wear clothes. He would just hang

00:52:08.239 --> 00:52:10.639
them off. You know, the main saying in my house

00:52:10.639 --> 00:52:13.500
was, Mum, Oscar's naked again. Because he just

00:52:13.500 --> 00:52:18.139
didn't. It's not just what's on the clothing.

00:52:18.639 --> 00:52:21.260
It's the whole design has been thought about

00:52:21.260 --> 00:52:26.159
from. The actual label -less concept to the softness,

00:52:26.260 --> 00:52:29.980
to the messaging, to the clarity, to the community.

00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:33.699
It's all embedded with inclusion, acceptance,

00:52:34.260 --> 00:52:36.920
bold and gentle. Everything you're about really,

00:52:37.059 --> 00:52:39.440
isn't it? Yeah, it's just about raising awareness

00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:43.340
of different abilities. Having acceptance that

00:52:43.340 --> 00:52:47.579
someone might, you know, I always think everyone's

00:52:47.579 --> 00:52:50.420
going to have an experience of you. Make sure

00:52:50.420 --> 00:52:53.639
that that's good. because you don't know what

00:52:53.639 --> 00:52:56.559
else someone else is carrying around. So the

00:52:56.559 --> 00:52:59.699
messages are, it's the start of a conversation,

00:52:59.739 --> 00:53:03.099
whether that's an unspoken one, because you've

00:53:03.099 --> 00:53:05.460
started a cog in someone's head thinking about

00:53:05.460 --> 00:53:10.079
how to maybe change things that they do, or whether

00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:14.460
it is actually an exchange you have with someone.

00:53:15.789 --> 00:53:19.030
Even in a waiting room, if someone says, he's

00:53:19.030 --> 00:53:21.030
sitting really well, well done, you're sitting

00:53:21.030 --> 00:53:23.710
really lovely. Because on there it might say,

00:53:23.869 --> 00:53:28.690
be kind, I am autistic. So really for me, it

00:53:28.690 --> 00:53:31.269
was a way of letting people know that when my

00:53:31.269 --> 00:53:35.010
son has emptied your handbag, grabbed your boobs,

00:53:35.289 --> 00:53:38.929
stolen your car keys in 30 seconds, you're not

00:53:38.929 --> 00:53:42.489
being mugged. And as he runs away from you, it

00:53:42.489 --> 00:53:46.829
says... be kind, I'm autistic, they go... And

00:53:46.829 --> 00:53:51.369
it allows that freedom of different experiences,

00:53:51.769 --> 00:53:54.349
you know, because sometimes we can be quite reactive

00:53:54.349 --> 00:53:58.170
in the world. And that's mental and it takes

00:53:58.170 --> 00:54:02.590
that away, doesn't it? It is education, non -verbal

00:54:02.590 --> 00:54:05.730
education. I just think it's wonderful. I am

00:54:05.730 --> 00:54:07.809
going to stop it there, Kelly, because I cannot...

00:54:08.030 --> 00:54:11.650
A better moment than to stop this podcast than

00:54:11.650 --> 00:54:15.050
that. So I just, I love your, everything you're

00:54:15.050 --> 00:54:18.409
about. You are so wise. And I know that the people

00:54:18.409 --> 00:54:21.849
listening to this will have a head full of little

00:54:21.849 --> 00:54:24.849
snippets of things that they can use, like little

00:54:24.849 --> 00:54:27.170
mantras almost, either make themselves feel better,

00:54:27.230 --> 00:54:29.989
to boost themselves, to explain to other people.

00:54:30.050 --> 00:54:33.349
I love it. I'm so excited for this podcast to

00:54:33.349 --> 00:54:38.619
go out. So thank you for sharing. So. like such

00:54:38.619 --> 00:54:41.320
such raw and honesty I really appreciate that

00:54:41.320 --> 00:54:44.179
your generosity of of sharing your life really

00:54:44.179 --> 00:54:46.820
oh thank you I just I just think you know what

00:54:46.820 --> 00:54:48.599
if it's happening to you anyway try and make

00:54:48.599 --> 00:54:53.440
it meaningful yeah yeah do a good job you've

00:54:53.440 --> 00:54:55.920
got to have something out of it you do do a great

00:54:55.920 --> 00:54:58.039
job at that um those people listening where can

00:54:58.039 --> 00:55:00.599
they find your clothing and all the stuff about

00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:02.360
you because I know that they're going to want

00:55:02.360 --> 00:55:05.170
to find out more Well, we've got bornanxious

00:55:05.170 --> 00:55:08.309
.co .uk, which is the home of our clothing label,

00:55:08.389 --> 00:55:10.409
but it's also the home of the blog. So it's called

00:55:10.409 --> 00:55:14.449
Blue Sky Thinking. And I share a lot of our behind

00:55:14.449 --> 00:55:17.809
the scenes stuff and how I reframe situations

00:55:17.809 --> 00:55:20.449
that I'm living in. It'll make you laugh. It'll

00:55:20.449 --> 00:55:24.139
make you cry. But it's also got About Us section

00:55:24.139 --> 00:55:26.099
because we work directly with the Anna Kennedy

00:55:26.099 --> 00:55:29.179
Online Charity, Merlin's Magic Wand, lots of

00:55:29.179 --> 00:55:31.260
other charities, all through Work for Good UK.

00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:33.519
And so you can read about our collaborations

00:55:33.519 --> 00:55:36.900
and who else we work with and Mr Harvey Price.

00:55:37.260 --> 00:55:39.699
But you can also look at videos and photos of

00:55:39.699 --> 00:55:42.039
our neuro -inclusive fashion shows that we've

00:55:42.039 --> 00:55:44.599
done. We've done two now. So it's bornanxious

00:55:44.599 --> 00:55:48.619
.co .uk. And it's our story and our shop. Amazing.

00:55:48.659 --> 00:55:51.380
And on Instagram as well, Born Anxious, which

00:55:51.380 --> 00:55:54.679
is a fantastic and like you say, generous, raw,

00:55:54.940 --> 00:55:58.559
real and hilarious Instagram. I just love it.

00:55:58.659 --> 00:56:01.039
And I learn so much every time I see your post

00:56:01.039 --> 00:56:02.960
pop up. So thank you so much for joining me,

00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:05.780
Kelly. Thank you. And yeah, just keep sharing

00:56:05.780 --> 00:56:07.500
in the way you do because it's just so refreshing

00:56:07.500 --> 00:56:10.340
and so needed. Thank you so much. I've loved

00:56:10.340 --> 00:56:17.440
this. I've sat down, had a nice chat. Thank you.