Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education
teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything
communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson
ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged
4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in
the field answering your questions and sharing
our knowledge and experience working alongside
our beautiful young people. Let's get started.
Hello everybody and welcome to the Sensory Classroom
podcast. My name is Jordan and today I'm joined
by the wonderful Ali Bhatti. Ali is a speech
and language therapist who specialises in autism
and AAC. She is privileged to work with speaking
and non -speaking children using a child -led
play -based approach which values their neurodivergent
patterns and preferences. And today I'm really
excited to talk to Ali about gestalt language
processing. Hello Ellie. Hi Jordan, lovely to
be here. I'm so pleased to have you on. I love
everything you share on social media and I have
personally learnt so much from you. So I'm really
excited to talk about this topic today. Can we
start with... What is gestalt language processing?
That is a very complex question. So I'll try
and kind of put it as simply as possible. Gestalt
language processing is an alternative entry point
or a route into language for children. So in
our profession in speech and language therapy,
we were taught and have thought for many years
that all children and language. using single
words first and then building up from there.
So then, you know, after they experimented with
single words for a while, then they do two word
combinations and then three word combinations
and so on. And we were completely missing a huge
piece of that in that actually some children
don't build up language like that. Some children's
entry point into language is longer chunks. So
for some children, it might be phrases that they've
heard from their family and that they reproduce.
at another time that sort of triggers that memory
of that piece of language that they've heard.
They might also pick up language from their favourite
TV shows or films or lines from songs. And it
can be a varying lens. So for some children,
it might just be a little phrase like, I love
it or let's go. And for some children, it might
be whole episodes of Peppa Pig. So I met a child
yesterday for the first time and his parents
told me that when he's in his room, he's replaying
entire. episodes of Peppa Pig and it's not entirely
clear because his speech motor coordination is
not quite mature enough to have clear speech,
but they can pick out the odd word. They can
pick out Pepper and George and some other little
chunks. And he's acting out at the same time.
So for him and for some gestalt language processors,
it's a whole embodied experience. Like they are,
you know, they're there. They're back in that
place where they first heard that language. So
it can be a really joyful way of engaging with
language. It really is. I shouldn't have favourites,
but they absolutely are my favourite learners
to work with because it's so much fun. I don't
know if you can find the same, but often the
phrases are really sing -songy and really quite
emotive. And you really have to use your whole
body to get behind it, which makes it really
fun. Yes, yes. And I think a lot of gestalt language
processors have a real reverence for language.
And so they pick out these beautiful phrases,
these really apt phrases. phrases so you know
they can be really sensitive and just perfect
for the moment or there's real humor like just
you know in a way that you know when you find
the perfect quotation or a meme it's just absolutely
perfect for that situation so yes it is it's
so it is a joyful way of practicing for me as
a speech and language therapist because every
child who walks through the door has their own
unique ways of communicating and it's just a
delight to sort of discover that it is I love
how you were liking it to memes because that
is often what it feels like it feels like you're
being fed a feed of perfectly timed memes in
the moment and maybe that is what makes it so
fun and joyful actually. Yes because you know
this moment is never going to happen again I
guess so it's like a really special moment of
connection. Absolutely and often it then gets
repeated it becomes an in -joke if you will.
Yes. I know often parents, you know, use their
phrases, which is what we're going to talk about
in a bit, but use their phrases to beat back
at them because it's meaningful. But it does
end up something like an in -joke. We both know
what it means and there's something really lovely
about it. Yes, absolutely. It seems astonishing,
really, when we reflect that we haven't really
recognised this as a mode of communication, because
I think it is something that everybody uses.
And every group of friends or every family do
have, like you say, these in -jokes and these
little sayings that just take you back to that
situation. And everybody knows exactly what the
meaning is, even if it wouldn't be transparent
to somebody who is not in your group of friends.
So, yes, it's just I'm so glad that we're discovering
this now because we've really missed an important
piece before. Totally. And when I look back from
classes gone by, I totally missed it. I would
use phrases like lost in their own world. I would
say, oh, they're not saying hello. They're not
answering hello. But they were using these perfect
phrases that meant hello to them, to me. And
they were really trying. And I look back. And
it's really hard to feel like, oh, I could have
done better, but we didn't know better. You know,
you can only do better if you know better. But
I do look back and think they were a gestalt
language processor. I know so much more now about
what they were trying to do and how they communicate.
Yes. And for that generation, you know, if anybody's
listening and they support adults or young people,
what we seem to be finding is it's not too late
to start supporting them with a supportive sort
of with the natural language acquisition framework,
which is a really useful framework for accompanying
a child or a young person or an adult through
their process of acquiring language. So, you
know, there's now some really nice case studies
coming. out of adults who have started to get
this support in their 20s 30s and beyond and
you know they are acquiring new language they're
bringing back old gestalts that might have gone
underground a long time ago but they're still
there and as soon as they have a partner in communication
who's listening and who knows what that is they
all start coming back so yeah if any if anybody
does work with older you know students or adults
be heartened that all of these strategies you
know there's no age limit to language acquisition
that's really really good to know have you noticed
a common theme in the phrases and the patterns
of phrases that are often picked out from them?
And where do you think that kind of comes from?
They're often highly emotive phrases. So often,
at least at first, I think, or early on in a
child's language journey, it's snippets of language
that are attached to a really meaningful situation
for them. So it might have been when there was
high emotion, whether that is excitement or fear
or sadness, there's something about that moment
that's made that language stick. So that's one
theme. And I would say the musicality of language
is another one that can help that language stick.
Often for gestalt language processors, they're
really drawn to music. They're often very naturally
musical. Sometimes they have perfect pitch. And
so snippets of songs or lyrics from songs can
often really help that language stick. And we
can help that by making our language musical.
So I've certainly noticed in my practice that
when I make my language more musical and, you
know, like almost sing the phrases, they're more
likely to be appealing for a child and, you know,
be remembered for another time. And is it helpful
to do the same tune every time, to be consistent
with that sing -songy? really I would say but
I would say I'm terrible at remembering what
tune I said that in so I think it's probably
helpful and I do find so I often support children
with AAC and that might be a paper -based communication
book or it might be on an app but certainly the
communication book that I tend to use the most
I think I have established tunes for those phrases
that I'm modeling a lot but I would say it's
not absolutely essential I don't you know we're
still learning about this but I think a lot of
our gestalt language processors have such good
memories that they will remember the way we said
it the first time and if we say it in a slightly
different tune the second time that might essentially
be what we call a mitigation for them so we've
changed something in it but they might be able
to recognize that that the language is still
the same but the intonation has changed so I
would say don't worry about being perfect if
you're like me and you can't remember exactly
how you said it the first time first time I don't
think it matters too much what's better is that
you're trying I suppose yeah absolutely and that
we're you know we're observing what the effect
of that is so I think a huge piece of learning
for me in the last three years has been around
providing a sense of safety for particularly
autistic children that we're working with and
really prioritising establishing trust and connection
first. and doing a lot more sort of sitting back
and observing, you know, in a natural way, not
in a, I've got my clipboard and I'm watching
you way, rather than jumping in too soon with,
right, I'm going to model loads of language and
I'm just going to like hurl this language at
you. So experimenting with silence and just,
you know. when the moment is right, offering
some language and just seeing how that lands
is really useful. I've learned a lot from an
American speech language pathologist called Corinne
Smoos, who is on Instagram. I think her Instagram
is called Crescendo Communication. And the things
that I've really sort of picked up from her include
leaving silence at either end of what you're
saying. so that you're just signaling this is
the important bit to listen to. Because if we're
constantly talking, if we're constantly narrating,
then that's just sort of background noise. So
I think I've got a bit better at timing what
I say with silence before and after so that there
is a clear sort of like, oh, listen to this.
This is hopefully going to be interesting. Yeah,
that makes so much sense, doesn't it? I guess
it's like a muscle that we have to exercise.
The more we're doing that, the more it will become
natural to us. speak in a single way or to leave
gaps I suppose yes and I think you know I find
this easier than I used to when I'm working with
parents and carers and teachers because they
they kind of get it straight away so I think
when as a speech and language therapist um I
used to sort of advise keep your language really
simple I'm not sure that I ever advised just
keep to single words to be honest but I think
we definitely advise keep it simple And in AAC,
we definitely kept it to single words with things
like core board. So you'd have single words like
more and again. And I think people always felt
that that was unnatural. And so they didn't really
like doing it. Whereas using phrases with a communication
book, I see everybody gets excited about it and
they... they feel more natural doing it. And
I hear parents immediately, you know, they've
got the idea immediately. They walk out of my
door saying, let's go find the car, where I don't
think I got that before, before I discovered,
like, let's model in phrase. Because, and I often
get this when I'm doing trainings and things,
I often get, oh, but we're talking to them like
a dog. You know, when they're just using single
words, I think it feels rude in a way. It feels
disrespectful, especially maybe in English. But
maybe that's where that uncomfortability comes
in, whereas using the phrases and that singing
song feels kind of fun, soft, playful, whereas
more finished, again, maybe just feels a little
bit harsh. Yes, I totally get it. I think that's
probably right. It sounds abrupt, doesn't it?
And I think the other thing is... It was a bit
disrespectful and underestimating what children
were able to understand. And throughout my career,
I have to say, you know, parents have always
said to me they understand everything. And this
does shame me. I am ashamed of this. For a lot
of my career, the culture in speech and language
therapy was, oh, parents always say that, but
are they really understanding? And we'd do this
horrific assessment, which was a keyword assessment
to see how many keywords. that child was understanding
in a phrase, I don't do that anymore. I find,
you know, I find the idea of that really insulting
to the child. Because what I see is, you know,
children are understanding. And particularly
when we're providing that multimodal communication,
which we used to withdraw when we were assessing
them, you know, we just expect them to be able
to understand from our spoken language. And we
wouldn't do any natural eye pointing or pointing
or showing. So, yes, that was a very, very long
way of saying, I agree with you, Jordan. I think
just using single words was a bit insulting to
that child's intelligence. And I suppose with
the gestalt, they might understand the whole
meaning of the whole phrase, but they can't pick
out the individual meanings of individual words
yet. Because that can happen, can't it? Yes,
it can. Are you okay talking through the phrases
a little bit? Yes. Because I know language processing
with echolalia and kind of is part of it, but
it's not the whole picture. Yes, absolutely.
And I would just begin with that to say that
these are not rigid, discrete stages. So a child
doesn't, you know, start in stage two and then
move to stage two and sorry, start in stage one,
then move to stage two and only use stage two
language. As a child sort of moves through the
stages, they just add to their repertoire. So
they're always going to have. stage one gestalt
and then they might start mitigating those gestalts
so they might trim them down if they're long
gestalts or they might start combining them with
other chunks so if they've got a gestalt like
let's go they might start varying that with let's
jump let's play so stage two is about that sort
of you notice that there's a change so if you
know that child well you'll get to know what
their gestalts are you hear them all the time
and then one day you'll hear oh, that's changed
a bit. Rather than saying, catch George, they
said, catch mummy. And as soon as you note that
change, that's an exciting step that, you know,
they're moving along and they're adding stage
two to their stage one language. And then stage
three is that they break those longer gestalts
down and they can pull out just a word from that.
So if they've had something like let's all eat
cupcakes. And then one day they pick up a toy
cupcake and say, cupcake. They have recognised
that that word alone refers to a cupcake. So,
to use some speech and language therapy jargon,
that is referential language. They're using a
word to reference a thing. And that's quite exciting
because, you know, they are understanding that
a word has a specific meaning. And we might also
see at the same time that they're able to point
to something and describe an attribute of it.
So they might point to it and say red. So I had
a child the other day and she was just doing
this beautifully. She was going through some
fruit and vegetable toys that I've got and she
was going red pepper, green pepper. green apple
and doing it really sort of with understanding
of what those words meant. So that's stage three
when we start to see them referencing, pointing,
showing and adding a label to that thing. And
then very quickly after, if not simultaneously,
we see stage four language. And I kind of see
stage four language as stage three is very much
about vocabulary development and concepts and
understanding that we can modulate meaning by
If we put two words together, you know, exploring
how that, you know, slightly changes the meaning.
And stage four is when we start seeing verbs
come in. So we might see things like go there,
go up, cup, me get cup, me not want cup. So it
sounds different from stage two language because
stage two language is often very melodic and
flowing because it's got that original intonation
pattern of the original gestalt. And stage four
starts to sound more, I guess, purposeful, but
a little bit labored as well because they've
got to think of what word do I need to use next.
Could they be grammatical error factors as well?
Because they're kind of... Forming those sentences
themselves rather than using pre -learned phrases,
which are usually correctly correct if they're
not using Peppa Pig, which are. Yes. Yes. Yes.
That's fine, actually. It is a stage four construction.
If you are seeing those grammatical errors, that's
a really nice sort of indicator that that is
stage four. Another indicator that it is stage
four is if you're seeing that same word being
used really flexibly across different constructions.
So it's really helpful to start jotting down
a child's language and really sort of looking,
oh, I've just heard go. Am I seeing go in other
phrases as well? with other words mixed in there.
And if I am, I can be fairly confident that that's
stage four language. Yeah, and it's good. If
you're not aware of these stages, rather than
getting, you don't want to get obsessed with
it as a parent or a teacher, maybe. I mean, this
is the speech and language therapist and all
of our job, I suppose. But rather than becoming
obsessed with it and writing it all down, it's
just good to have a... brief awareness of these
because otherwise it could look like a backward
stare yeah and you could be thinking well hang
on they used to be able to say that phrase beautifully
and now they can't what's happened there is that
we know they've moved on they're now forming
their own sentences and exciting you don't have
to be worried about that that's a real fighting
next step for us yes and it does vary hugely
between children so you know some children do
get very quiet when they enter stage three stage
four and it can look like in air quotes regression
it's not and it's not regression as you say it's
just a really important step where they are just
needing to put a lot more cognitive effort into
constructing the next word in that phrase um
some children don't go so quiet i have to say
so there's no hard and fast rules in this some
children you know they carry on using a lot of
their stage one stage two language and some children
you know move through step the stages quite quickly
so it's not a hard and fast rule that children
will go through a really quiet, slow, stage three,
stage four. But that is a tendency that we see.
And I would completely agree with you. Don't
panic if you are a parent or a professional,
if you see that. Just have a, you know, be curious.
What is the language that they're using? Has
it become more referential? Are they sort of
pointing and showing? And therefore, they're
really thinking about the exact word that they
need. And it can be celebrated and validated.
Yes, absolutely. And the number one advice is,
just talk naturally to your child so you know
you really cannot go wrong by just talking naturally
don't overthink it so you know if you are just
joining that child in their play you're not trying
to change anything just say what feels natural
in that situation and honestly you won't go wrong
with that. That's really good advice that's totally
realistic isn't it and then what about stage
five then? Yeah so stage five is when we just
start to see more complex grammar coming in so
this This is where you might, you know, benefit
from a speech and language therapist to sort
of roughly guide you through the process. Or
if you are sort of like a grammar geek, you're
not a speech and language therapist, but you're
just curious, you can kind of use a tool which
is very useful and called developmental sentence
scoring. So I use that once a child reaches is
comfortably in stage four and I'm hearing some
really nice grammatical constructions like different
verb forms. different pronouns. So pronouns are
things like I, you, me, mine. Verb tenses might
change. So we've not only got want, but wanted,
want to do it. And then things like questions
might come in and negatives might come in. So
may not want it. You might start to see that.
So at that stage, it's really useful to have
this tool called DSS. And you can literally start
marking off these grammatical constructions.
So the DSS has eight levels, slightly confusingly,
because there's six stages of natural language
acquisition. And the DSS sort of maps on to stages
four to six of natural language acquisition.
But you can use the DSS to just see these constructions
as they appear. And stage five is the slightly
more complex grammar that's needed. You know,
when we're talking about things that might happen
or could happen, when we're talking more about
our thought processes. And stage six is the most
complicated grammar that we see in academic language.
really sort of cerebral conversations. Like it
could have been that I saw that on Tuesday, but
I might be confusing that with Wednesday. I'm
not really sure. So that, you know, that really
complicated grammar. And then they, are they
then at the stage where they... have mitigated
the words they know the meanings of the individual
words and they can speak as you and i do and
they will always kind of bring those gestalt
through that process until they get to that stage
is that I think it varies enormously. And I'm
always at pains to say that some children and
adults will use stage two language so beautifully
that that's a stopping off point for them. So
I think there's a lot of autistic adults who
just use stage two language so beautifully. It's
almost like they've got a file or in the old
terms, a Rolodex of phrase chunks and they can...
Combine those so flexibly that, you know, they're
perfectly eloquent and have beautiful language
using stage two language. And other children
and adults will kind of make more use of stage
four, five and six language. And so I think it's
really, really individual. I don't see that.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just always at pains
to say you can say so much with stage two language.
Ideally, we want someone to have like super flexible
stage four and beyond, but it's not necessary.
And we'd always respect that that person's sort
of most natural language. So I think, you know,
a gestalt language processor, a pure gestalt
language processor, they're always going to have.
those stage one gestalts because they're just
so beautiful and so perfect and they're going
to carry on gathering them as well. So it's always
going to be a part of their language. What about
pre -stage one? Because I've definitely seen
some learners that are repeating actions with
their body or are a bit sing -songy in the tunes
that they're making with their mouth. They hum
maybe a tune. They're really excited about certain
phrases. Maybe they keep watching them over and
over again. Maybe in their play, they're quite
repetitive in their play. And I can notice and
recognize patterns in what they've seen to what
they're playing and how their body is moving
in play. Is that gestalt landing processing?
Is that something different? Well, I think it's
part of this whole gestaltiness of their processing.
So, you know, we could call that gestalt. processing
or gestalt cognitive processing. So Barry Prezant,
who kind of did a lot of work around echolalia
and helped us understand that it was meaningful,
he has a lovely quote, which is, I will mangle
quotes because I'm not great at quotes. It's
something along the lines that gestalt language
process is a manifestation of wider gestalt processing.
So if you are a gestalt language processor, it's
highly likely that you also carry out play routines
in the same way, that you expect events to unfold
in the same way when you're at that stage one.
of Gestalt language processing particularly.
So I would say there's not a stage zero. There's
not one before stage one. But we will likely
see echopraxis, which is when children act things
out in their play in the same way. So it might
be that they order things in the same way each
time or arrange things in the same way each time,
or that they're moving their body in a certain
way in a lovely little routine. Or the first
time they came into a room, they stood in a particular
position and then they jumped across the room.
And so the next time they do it, they'll do it
in a... exactly the same way so I think that
that's probably just another manifestation of
their gestalt processing that makes perfect sense
something I've also seen I've I've had it with
two children actually that they did have some
gestalts and some they were I mean gosh some
of them have kind of gone to the yeah stage four
stage five now but they still are I mean, they
are just incredible at using the iPad. So they
might find, go to BBC iPlay, for example, and
find the exact episode in the exact point of
second of something they wish to say. And it
is always, mostly, there is meaning. There is
meaning there. Yes, yes, yes. It might be, it's
too loud in here, or I want a cup of coffee,
or whatever it is. And I feel like that has to
be linked too. It's those lovely phrases and
maybe they haven't had that communication understanding
there. Absolutely. So that's stage one language.
So we know around 30 % of autistic children and
people have an apraxia of speech. So they find
it really difficult to access speech. So they've
got lots of language in their head that they
cannot reliably get out in mouth words. And so
their stage one might manifest as rewinding and
replaying or getting to that exact point in a
YouTube clip. And that is stage one language.
So they have internalized that phrase and it's
a gestalt for them. It's a language gestalt for
them. They just don't have the motor speech coordination
to rely upon. get that out of their mouth as
mouth words. They might occasionally say something
and a whole phrase. So, you know, I work with
one child and his mum will occasionally text
me and say, I'm sure he just said, I've got you.
Do you think he did say that? And I always say,
yes, if you think you heard it, you did. Because
children who have got, you know, apraxic bodies,
They might be able to say something once in a
blue moon, but they can't repeat it. And, you
know, it must be hugely frustrating for them.
But that's when we would be looking at supporting
them with AAC and really honouring those language
gestalts that they are pulling out from their
media, from YouTube or their TV programmes or
films and programming that into their AAC. So,
yes, I've come across children who, exactly like
you, they've got this amazing ability. to get
to exactly the right point in a whole movie.
It's incredible to watch, isn't it? It's incredible.
I suppose that even it's just really important
then that they have access to that because if
that is their voice, if that's what they've got,
if you're waiting for... boards to be made or
whatever you know if you're at the stage where
your child's got this ipad and they are talking
through it please bring it everywhere please
keep it charged yes please keep all their programs
downloaded so you don't need internet and all
of those things because that is at that point
is their voice absolutely absolutely and i think
i've widened my understanding of what aac is
through working with gestalt language processors
because for them youtube is an aac tool for them.
And certainly one young person that I have...
consulted for, she prefers that modality of communication
to her AAC. So, you know, she would go to YouTube
as her default or the Disney channel is for her.
That's her preferred mode. She likes it in its
original form. Yes, those phrases are programmed
into her AAC as well, but there's just something
beautiful and delightful to her about pulling
it from its original source. Who are we to say
what's easier? Yes. Just because it's easier
for our brains to process that it's one button
to press. Yeah. I work with a student who definitely,
definitely, definitely doesn't find that easier.
I also think it's really interesting that when
people say, oh, I'm going to simplify the AAC
because it's just so overwhelming. There's just
so many folders to navigate. And I think, have
you seen them on YouTube? They can't even spell
and type and they always find the phrase and
video that they need. And that is the whole of
YouTube. It was at this point that we, the recording.
messed up and I couldn't not include this episode
because it's just so good and I love Ali so much
but just so that you know that we then went on
to speak about the importance of AAC and we spoke
about her starting a podcast with Ruth Jones
who has also been on my podcast and I'm really
excited to see what they share on their podcast
I hope to be a guest so that would have already
started by the time this podcast comes out so
I'll leave all of the links to that in the description
below we also spoke about her book as well all
about gestalt language processing and I'll leave
that in the link below so I'm really sorry that
you missed just the last few minutes of the podcast
but I am so pleased that we did this I'm so pleased
to record with Ali and I hope that you still
got a lot out of this episode thank you so much
Ali follow Ali over on oh god all social media
left everything in the description below to find
out all about her offers and her book and everything
this has been an absolute joy it's my favorite
topic to talk about and thank you so much for
sharing your wisdom with us today