WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.680 Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education 00:00:02.680 --> 00:00:06.160 teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:09.119 communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson 00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:11.660 ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged 00:00:11.660 --> 00:00:15.300 4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in 00:00:15.300 --> 00:00:17.640 the field answering your questions and sharing 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:19.559 our knowledge and experience working alongside 00:00:19.559 --> 00:00:22.579 our beautiful young people. Let's get started. 00:00:28.140 --> 00:00:31.160 Hello everybody and welcome to the Sensory Classroom 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:34.119 podcast. My name is Jordan and today I'm joined 00:00:34.119 --> 00:00:36.840 by the wonderful Ali Bhatti. Ali is a speech 00:00:36.840 --> 00:00:39.119 and language therapist who specialises in autism 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:42.579 and AAC. She is privileged to work with speaking 00:00:42.579 --> 00:00:45.619 and non -speaking children using a child -led 00:00:45.619 --> 00:00:48.820 play -based approach which values their neurodivergent 00:00:48.820 --> 00:00:51.539 patterns and preferences. And today I'm really 00:00:51.539 --> 00:00:54.240 excited to talk to Ali about gestalt language 00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:57.969 processing. Hello Ellie. Hi Jordan, lovely to 00:00:57.969 --> 00:01:01.170 be here. I'm so pleased to have you on. I love 00:01:01.170 --> 00:01:03.310 everything you share on social media and I have 00:01:03.310 --> 00:01:06.670 personally learnt so much from you. So I'm really 00:01:06.670 --> 00:01:08.810 excited to talk about this topic today. Can we 00:01:08.810 --> 00:01:12.459 start with... What is gestalt language processing? 00:01:13.079 --> 00:01:16.840 That is a very complex question. So I'll try 00:01:16.840 --> 00:01:22.099 and kind of put it as simply as possible. Gestalt 00:01:22.099 --> 00:01:26.040 language processing is an alternative entry point 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:30.219 or a route into language for children. So in 00:01:30.219 --> 00:01:32.859 our profession in speech and language therapy, 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:36.200 we were taught and have thought for many years 00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:40.400 that all children and language. using single 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:43.079 words first and then building up from there. 00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:45.799 So then, you know, after they experimented with 00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:48.180 single words for a while, then they do two word 00:01:48.180 --> 00:01:50.620 combinations and then three word combinations 00:01:50.620 --> 00:01:54.120 and so on. And we were completely missing a huge 00:01:54.120 --> 00:01:57.060 piece of that in that actually some children 00:01:57.060 --> 00:01:59.640 don't build up language like that. Some children's 00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:03.239 entry point into language is longer chunks. So 00:02:03.239 --> 00:02:06.239 for some children, it might be phrases that they've 00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:08.419 heard from their family and that they reproduce. 00:02:08.810 --> 00:02:11.610 at another time that sort of triggers that memory 00:02:11.610 --> 00:02:13.750 of that piece of language that they've heard. 00:02:13.930 --> 00:02:16.770 They might also pick up language from their favourite 00:02:16.770 --> 00:02:20.990 TV shows or films or lines from songs. And it 00:02:20.990 --> 00:02:23.370 can be a varying lens. So for some children, 00:02:23.389 --> 00:02:26.430 it might just be a little phrase like, I love 00:02:26.430 --> 00:02:29.189 it or let's go. And for some children, it might 00:02:29.189 --> 00:02:32.310 be whole episodes of Peppa Pig. So I met a child 00:02:32.310 --> 00:02:34.770 yesterday for the first time and his parents 00:02:34.770 --> 00:02:37.509 told me that when he's in his room, he's replaying 00:02:37.509 --> 00:02:40.770 entire. episodes of Peppa Pig and it's not entirely 00:02:40.770 --> 00:02:44.530 clear because his speech motor coordination is 00:02:44.530 --> 00:02:47.900 not quite mature enough to have clear speech, 00:02:48.060 --> 00:02:50.659 but they can pick out the odd word. They can 00:02:50.659 --> 00:02:53.780 pick out Pepper and George and some other little 00:02:53.780 --> 00:02:56.599 chunks. And he's acting out at the same time. 00:02:56.639 --> 00:02:59.939 So for him and for some gestalt language processors, 00:02:59.960 --> 00:03:02.659 it's a whole embodied experience. Like they are, 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:05.840 you know, they're there. They're back in that 00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:08.340 place where they first heard that language. So 00:03:08.340 --> 00:03:11.300 it can be a really joyful way of engaging with 00:03:11.300 --> 00:03:15.039 language. It really is. I shouldn't have favourites, 00:03:15.060 --> 00:03:17.800 but they absolutely are my favourite learners 00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:22.939 to work with because it's so much fun. I don't 00:03:22.939 --> 00:03:24.139 know if you can find the same, but often the 00:03:24.139 --> 00:03:26.500 phrases are really sing -songy and really quite 00:03:26.500 --> 00:03:29.419 emotive. And you really have to use your whole 00:03:29.419 --> 00:03:32.000 body to get behind it, which makes it really 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:35.340 fun. Yes, yes. And I think a lot of gestalt language 00:03:35.340 --> 00:03:38.539 processors have a real reverence for language. 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:41.939 And so they pick out these beautiful phrases, 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:44.539 these really apt phrases. phrases so you know 00:03:44.539 --> 00:03:47.400 they can be really sensitive and just perfect 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:51.000 for the moment or there's real humor like just 00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:53.879 you know in a way that you know when you find 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:57.819 the perfect quotation or a meme it's just absolutely 00:03:57.819 --> 00:04:01.300 perfect for that situation so yes it is it's 00:04:01.300 --> 00:04:05.159 so it is a joyful way of practicing for me as 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:06.759 a speech and language therapist because every 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:09.340 child who walks through the door has their own 00:04:09.340 --> 00:04:12.620 unique ways of communicating and it's just a 00:04:12.620 --> 00:04:15.379 delight to sort of discover that it is I love 00:04:15.379 --> 00:04:17.220 how you were liking it to memes because that 00:04:17.220 --> 00:04:20.040 is often what it feels like it feels like you're 00:04:20.040 --> 00:04:25.610 being fed a feed of perfectly timed memes in 00:04:25.610 --> 00:04:27.910 the moment and maybe that is what makes it so 00:04:27.910 --> 00:04:30.129 fun and joyful actually. Yes because you know 00:04:30.129 --> 00:04:32.329 this moment is never going to happen again I 00:04:32.329 --> 00:04:34.990 guess so it's like a really special moment of 00:04:34.990 --> 00:04:37.829 connection. Absolutely and often it then gets 00:04:37.829 --> 00:04:40.810 repeated it becomes an in -joke if you will. 00:04:41.069 --> 00:04:44.709 Yes. I know often parents, you know, use their 00:04:44.709 --> 00:04:46.069 phrases, which is what we're going to talk about 00:04:46.069 --> 00:04:48.649 in a bit, but use their phrases to beat back 00:04:48.649 --> 00:04:50.269 at them because it's meaningful. But it does 00:04:50.269 --> 00:04:52.949 end up something like an in -joke. We both know 00:04:52.949 --> 00:04:55.250 what it means and there's something really lovely 00:04:55.250 --> 00:04:58.649 about it. Yes, absolutely. It seems astonishing, 00:04:58.750 --> 00:05:01.649 really, when we reflect that we haven't really 00:05:01.649 --> 00:05:04.470 recognised this as a mode of communication, because 00:05:04.470 --> 00:05:06.889 I think it is something that everybody uses. 00:05:07.069 --> 00:05:10.970 And every group of friends or every family do 00:05:10.970 --> 00:05:13.649 have, like you say, these in -jokes and these 00:05:13.649 --> 00:05:15.889 little sayings that just take you back to that 00:05:15.889 --> 00:05:19.209 situation. And everybody knows exactly what the 00:05:19.209 --> 00:05:21.810 meaning is, even if it wouldn't be transparent 00:05:21.810 --> 00:05:24.430 to somebody who is not in your group of friends. 00:05:25.100 --> 00:05:28.199 So, yes, it's just I'm so glad that we're discovering 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:30.779 this now because we've really missed an important 00:05:30.779 --> 00:05:33.879 piece before. Totally. And when I look back from 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:39.540 classes gone by, I totally missed it. I would 00:05:39.540 --> 00:05:43.139 use phrases like lost in their own world. I would 00:05:43.139 --> 00:05:44.860 say, oh, they're not saying hello. They're not 00:05:44.860 --> 00:05:47.379 answering hello. But they were using these perfect 00:05:47.379 --> 00:05:50.220 phrases that meant hello to them, to me. And 00:05:50.220 --> 00:05:53.250 they were really trying. And I look back. And 00:05:53.250 --> 00:05:54.910 it's really hard to feel like, oh, I could have 00:05:54.910 --> 00:05:56.709 done better, but we didn't know better. You know, 00:05:56.769 --> 00:05:59.069 you can only do better if you know better. But 00:05:59.069 --> 00:06:01.029 I do look back and think they were a gestalt 00:06:01.029 --> 00:06:04.189 language processor. I know so much more now about 00:06:04.189 --> 00:06:06.529 what they were trying to do and how they communicate. 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:09.939 Yes. And for that generation, you know, if anybody's 00:06:09.939 --> 00:06:12.920 listening and they support adults or young people, 00:06:13.060 --> 00:06:16.379 what we seem to be finding is it's not too late 00:06:16.379 --> 00:06:19.879 to start supporting them with a supportive sort 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:22.379 of with the natural language acquisition framework, 00:06:22.620 --> 00:06:25.939 which is a really useful framework for accompanying 00:06:25.939 --> 00:06:29.579 a child or a young person or an adult through 00:06:29.579 --> 00:06:33.139 their process of acquiring language. So, you 00:06:33.139 --> 00:06:35.920 know, there's now some really nice case studies 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:39.600 coming. out of adults who have started to get 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:43.160 this support in their 20s 30s and beyond and 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:45.879 you know they are acquiring new language they're 00:06:45.879 --> 00:06:49.000 bringing back old gestalts that might have gone 00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:51.939 underground a long time ago but they're still 00:06:51.939 --> 00:06:56.160 there and as soon as they have a partner in communication 00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:59.680 who's listening and who knows what that is they 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:03.579 all start coming back so yeah if any if anybody 00:07:03.579 --> 00:07:06.620 does work with older you know students or adults 00:07:06.620 --> 00:07:09.459 be heartened that all of these strategies you 00:07:09.459 --> 00:07:12.139 know there's no age limit to language acquisition 00:07:12.139 --> 00:07:16.980 that's really really good to know have you noticed 00:07:16.980 --> 00:07:22.600 a common theme in the phrases and the patterns 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:25.230 of phrases that are often picked out from them? 00:07:25.290 --> 00:07:27.230 And where do you think that kind of comes from? 00:07:27.629 --> 00:07:31.709 They're often highly emotive phrases. So often, 00:07:31.790 --> 00:07:35.009 at least at first, I think, or early on in a 00:07:35.009 --> 00:07:38.250 child's language journey, it's snippets of language 00:07:38.250 --> 00:07:40.990 that are attached to a really meaningful situation 00:07:40.990 --> 00:07:43.769 for them. So it might have been when there was 00:07:43.769 --> 00:07:47.410 high emotion, whether that is excitement or fear 00:07:47.410 --> 00:07:50.470 or sadness, there's something about that moment 00:07:50.470 --> 00:07:53.920 that's made that language stick. So that's one 00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:57.500 theme. And I would say the musicality of language 00:07:57.500 --> 00:08:00.220 is another one that can help that language stick. 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:03.060 Often for gestalt language processors, they're 00:08:03.060 --> 00:08:06.360 really drawn to music. They're often very naturally 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:11.000 musical. Sometimes they have perfect pitch. And 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:15.939 so snippets of songs or lyrics from songs can 00:08:15.939 --> 00:08:19.560 often really help that language stick. And we 00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:22.319 can help that by making our language musical. 00:08:22.379 --> 00:08:26.139 So I've certainly noticed in my practice that 00:08:26.139 --> 00:08:28.839 when I make my language more musical and, you 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:31.480 know, like almost sing the phrases, they're more 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:35.940 likely to be appealing for a child and, you know, 00:08:35.940 --> 00:08:38.700 be remembered for another time. And is it helpful 00:08:38.700 --> 00:08:41.940 to do the same tune every time, to be consistent 00:08:41.940 --> 00:08:45.580 with that sing -songy? really I would say but 00:08:45.580 --> 00:08:48.440 I would say I'm terrible at remembering what 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:51.039 tune I said that in so I think it's probably 00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:54.480 helpful and I do find so I often support children 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:57.679 with AAC and that might be a paper -based communication 00:08:57.679 --> 00:09:01.440 book or it might be on an app but certainly the 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:04.139 communication book that I tend to use the most 00:09:04.139 --> 00:09:07.720 I think I have established tunes for those phrases 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:11.460 that I'm modeling a lot but I would say it's 00:09:11.460 --> 00:09:14.240 not absolutely essential I don't you know we're 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:16.639 still learning about this but I think a lot of 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:18.779 our gestalt language processors have such good 00:09:18.779 --> 00:09:21.820 memories that they will remember the way we said 00:09:21.820 --> 00:09:24.480 it the first time and if we say it in a slightly 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:26.860 different tune the second time that might essentially 00:09:26.860 --> 00:09:30.179 be what we call a mitigation for them so we've 00:09:30.179 --> 00:09:32.980 changed something in it but they might be able 00:09:32.980 --> 00:09:35.320 to recognize that that the language is still 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:38.059 the same but the intonation has changed so I 00:09:38.059 --> 00:09:40.019 would say don't worry about being perfect if 00:09:40.019 --> 00:09:41.759 you're like me and you can't remember exactly 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:44.039 how you said it the first time first time I don't 00:09:44.039 --> 00:09:46.600 think it matters too much what's better is that 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:50.240 you're trying I suppose yeah absolutely and that 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:52.620 we're you know we're observing what the effect 00:09:52.620 --> 00:09:56.080 of that is so I think a huge piece of learning 00:09:56.080 --> 00:10:00.480 for me in the last three years has been around 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:04.379 providing a sense of safety for particularly 00:10:04.379 --> 00:10:07.139 autistic children that we're working with and 00:10:07.139 --> 00:10:10.919 really prioritising establishing trust and connection 00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:15.389 first. and doing a lot more sort of sitting back 00:10:15.389 --> 00:10:17.970 and observing, you know, in a natural way, not 00:10:17.970 --> 00:10:19.809 in a, I've got my clipboard and I'm watching 00:10:19.809 --> 00:10:23.169 you way, rather than jumping in too soon with, 00:10:23.230 --> 00:10:24.789 right, I'm going to model loads of language and 00:10:24.789 --> 00:10:26.850 I'm just going to like hurl this language at 00:10:26.850 --> 00:10:31.309 you. So experimenting with silence and just, 00:10:31.429 --> 00:10:34.519 you know. when the moment is right, offering 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:37.000 some language and just seeing how that lands 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:42.080 is really useful. I've learned a lot from an 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:45.200 American speech language pathologist called Corinne 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:48.879 Smoos, who is on Instagram. I think her Instagram 00:10:48.879 --> 00:10:54.220 is called Crescendo Communication. And the things 00:10:54.220 --> 00:10:57.019 that I've really sort of picked up from her include 00:10:57.019 --> 00:10:59.940 leaving silence at either end of what you're 00:10:59.940 --> 00:11:04.350 saying. so that you're just signaling this is 00:11:04.350 --> 00:11:06.950 the important bit to listen to. Because if we're 00:11:06.950 --> 00:11:09.669 constantly talking, if we're constantly narrating, 00:11:09.669 --> 00:11:13.269 then that's just sort of background noise. So 00:11:13.269 --> 00:11:16.730 I think I've got a bit better at timing what 00:11:16.730 --> 00:11:21.409 I say with silence before and after so that there 00:11:21.409 --> 00:11:24.009 is a clear sort of like, oh, listen to this. 00:11:24.029 --> 00:11:28.099 This is hopefully going to be interesting. Yeah, 00:11:28.099 --> 00:11:30.299 that makes so much sense, doesn't it? I guess 00:11:30.299 --> 00:11:31.940 it's like a muscle that we have to exercise. 00:11:32.100 --> 00:11:34.320 The more we're doing that, the more it will become 00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:37.779 natural to us. speak in a single way or to leave 00:11:37.779 --> 00:11:41.720 gaps I suppose yes and I think you know I find 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:45.120 this easier than I used to when I'm working with 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:47.639 parents and carers and teachers because they 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:50.559 they kind of get it straight away so I think 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:54.200 when as a speech and language therapist um I 00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:56.039 used to sort of advise keep your language really 00:11:56.039 --> 00:11:59.259 simple I'm not sure that I ever advised just 00:11:59.259 --> 00:12:02.279 keep to single words to be honest but I think 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:06.009 we definitely advise keep it simple And in AAC, 00:12:06.230 --> 00:12:08.429 we definitely kept it to single words with things 00:12:08.429 --> 00:12:11.470 like core board. So you'd have single words like 00:12:11.470 --> 00:12:16.669 more and again. And I think people always felt 00:12:16.669 --> 00:12:19.350 that that was unnatural. And so they didn't really 00:12:19.350 --> 00:12:24.450 like doing it. Whereas using phrases with a communication 00:12:24.450 --> 00:12:28.370 book, I see everybody gets excited about it and 00:12:28.370 --> 00:12:31.909 they... they feel more natural doing it. And 00:12:31.909 --> 00:12:34.750 I hear parents immediately, you know, they've 00:12:34.750 --> 00:12:37.009 got the idea immediately. They walk out of my 00:12:37.009 --> 00:12:40.730 door saying, let's go find the car, where I don't 00:12:40.730 --> 00:12:44.490 think I got that before, before I discovered, 00:12:44.529 --> 00:12:47.029 like, let's model in phrase. Because, and I often 00:12:47.029 --> 00:12:49.429 get this when I'm doing trainings and things, 00:12:49.549 --> 00:12:52.169 I often get, oh, but we're talking to them like 00:12:52.169 --> 00:12:55.649 a dog. You know, when they're just using single 00:12:55.649 --> 00:12:59.169 words, I think it feels rude in a way. It feels 00:12:59.169 --> 00:13:03.610 disrespectful, especially maybe in English. But 00:13:03.610 --> 00:13:06.370 maybe that's where that uncomfortability comes 00:13:06.370 --> 00:13:08.950 in, whereas using the phrases and that singing 00:13:08.950 --> 00:13:13.629 song feels kind of fun, soft, playful, whereas 00:13:13.629 --> 00:13:17.690 more finished, again, maybe just feels a little 00:13:17.690 --> 00:13:21.090 bit harsh. Yes, I totally get it. I think that's 00:13:21.090 --> 00:13:23.070 probably right. It sounds abrupt, doesn't it? 00:13:23.149 --> 00:13:26.139 And I think the other thing is... It was a bit 00:13:26.139 --> 00:13:29.799 disrespectful and underestimating what children 00:13:29.799 --> 00:13:33.759 were able to understand. And throughout my career, 00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:36.259 I have to say, you know, parents have always 00:13:36.259 --> 00:13:39.580 said to me they understand everything. And this 00:13:39.580 --> 00:13:42.279 does shame me. I am ashamed of this. For a lot 00:13:42.279 --> 00:13:44.960 of my career, the culture in speech and language 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:47.539 therapy was, oh, parents always say that, but 00:13:47.539 --> 00:13:49.960 are they really understanding? And we'd do this 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:52.679 horrific assessment, which was a keyword assessment 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:56.019 to see how many keywords. that child was understanding 00:13:56.019 --> 00:13:59.039 in a phrase, I don't do that anymore. I find, 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:01.519 you know, I find the idea of that really insulting 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:04.840 to the child. Because what I see is, you know, 00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:07.360 children are understanding. And particularly 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:10.340 when we're providing that multimodal communication, 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:14.139 which we used to withdraw when we were assessing 00:14:14.139 --> 00:14:17.120 them, you know, we just expect them to be able 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:19.379 to understand from our spoken language. And we 00:14:19.379 --> 00:14:22.600 wouldn't do any natural eye pointing or pointing 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:26.259 or showing. So, yes, that was a very, very long 00:14:26.259 --> 00:14:29.100 way of saying, I agree with you, Jordan. I think 00:14:29.100 --> 00:14:32.220 just using single words was a bit insulting to 00:14:32.220 --> 00:14:34.559 that child's intelligence. And I suppose with 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:37.279 the gestalt, they might understand the whole 00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:40.259 meaning of the whole phrase, but they can't pick 00:14:40.259 --> 00:14:42.899 out the individual meanings of individual words 00:14:42.899 --> 00:14:45.700 yet. Because that can happen, can't it? Yes, 00:14:45.700 --> 00:14:48.059 it can. Are you okay talking through the phrases 00:14:48.059 --> 00:14:52.500 a little bit? Yes. Because I know language processing 00:14:52.500 --> 00:14:55.179 with echolalia and kind of is part of it, but 00:14:55.179 --> 00:14:57.539 it's not the whole picture. Yes, absolutely. 00:14:58.419 --> 00:15:00.779 And I would just begin with that to say that 00:15:00.779 --> 00:15:04.240 these are not rigid, discrete stages. So a child 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:07.159 doesn't, you know, start in stage two and then 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:09.779 move to stage two and sorry, start in stage one, 00:15:09.860 --> 00:15:12.399 then move to stage two and only use stage two 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:14.779 language. As a child sort of moves through the 00:15:14.779 --> 00:15:16.639 stages, they just add to their repertoire. So 00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:19.509 they're always going to have. stage one gestalt 00:15:19.509 --> 00:15:23.070 and then they might start mitigating those gestalts 00:15:23.070 --> 00:15:25.490 so they might trim them down if they're long 00:15:25.490 --> 00:15:28.450 gestalts or they might start combining them with 00:15:28.450 --> 00:15:30.629 other chunks so if they've got a gestalt like 00:15:30.629 --> 00:15:34.590 let's go they might start varying that with let's 00:15:34.590 --> 00:15:38.330 jump let's play so stage two is about that sort 00:15:38.330 --> 00:15:41.309 of you notice that there's a change so if you 00:15:41.309 --> 00:15:43.710 know that child well you'll get to know what 00:15:43.710 --> 00:15:46.330 their gestalts are you hear them all the time 00:15:46.330 --> 00:15:48.710 and then one day you'll hear oh, that's changed 00:15:48.710 --> 00:15:51.289 a bit. Rather than saying, catch George, they 00:15:51.289 --> 00:15:53.690 said, catch mummy. And as soon as you note that 00:15:53.690 --> 00:15:56.129 change, that's an exciting step that, you know, 00:15:56.169 --> 00:15:59.789 they're moving along and they're adding stage 00:15:59.789 --> 00:16:02.549 two to their stage one language. And then stage 00:16:02.549 --> 00:16:06.110 three is that they break those longer gestalts 00:16:06.110 --> 00:16:09.950 down and they can pull out just a word from that. 00:16:10.090 --> 00:16:13.779 So if they've had something like let's all eat 00:16:13.779 --> 00:16:17.039 cupcakes. And then one day they pick up a toy 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:21.539 cupcake and say, cupcake. They have recognised 00:16:21.539 --> 00:16:26.940 that that word alone refers to a cupcake. So, 00:16:27.059 --> 00:16:29.659 to use some speech and language therapy jargon, 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:32.899 that is referential language. They're using a 00:16:32.899 --> 00:16:36.500 word to reference a thing. And that's quite exciting 00:16:36.500 --> 00:16:40.080 because, you know, they are understanding that 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:43.379 a word has a specific meaning. And we might also 00:16:43.379 --> 00:16:46.019 see at the same time that they're able to point 00:16:46.019 --> 00:16:48.559 to something and describe an attribute of it. 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:51.820 So they might point to it and say red. So I had 00:16:51.820 --> 00:16:53.159 a child the other day and she was just doing 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:54.639 this beautifully. She was going through some 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:56.620 fruit and vegetable toys that I've got and she 00:16:56.620 --> 00:17:03.240 was going red pepper, green pepper. green apple 00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:06.400 and doing it really sort of with understanding 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:10.140 of what those words meant. So that's stage three 00:17:10.140 --> 00:17:12.900 when we start to see them referencing, pointing, 00:17:13.220 --> 00:17:16.299 showing and adding a label to that thing. And 00:17:16.299 --> 00:17:19.039 then very quickly after, if not simultaneously, 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:22.599 we see stage four language. And I kind of see 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:25.259 stage four language as stage three is very much 00:17:25.259 --> 00:17:28.400 about vocabulary development and concepts and 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:31.380 understanding that we can modulate meaning by 00:17:31.500 --> 00:17:35.660 If we put two words together, you know, exploring 00:17:35.660 --> 00:17:38.359 how that, you know, slightly changes the meaning. 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:41.500 And stage four is when we start seeing verbs 00:17:41.500 --> 00:17:47.160 come in. So we might see things like go there, 00:17:47.460 --> 00:17:54.130 go up, cup, me get cup, me not want cup. So it 00:17:54.130 --> 00:17:57.549 sounds different from stage two language because 00:17:57.549 --> 00:18:00.509 stage two language is often very melodic and 00:18:00.509 --> 00:18:03.309 flowing because it's got that original intonation 00:18:03.309 --> 00:18:06.670 pattern of the original gestalt. And stage four 00:18:06.670 --> 00:18:11.230 starts to sound more, I guess, purposeful, but 00:18:11.230 --> 00:18:13.690 a little bit labored as well because they've 00:18:13.690 --> 00:18:16.529 got to think of what word do I need to use next. 00:18:17.710 --> 00:18:20.549 Could they be grammatical error factors as well? 00:18:20.549 --> 00:18:23.019 Because they're kind of... Forming those sentences 00:18:23.019 --> 00:18:26.440 themselves rather than using pre -learned phrases, 00:18:26.619 --> 00:18:28.680 which are usually correctly correct if they're 00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:33.099 not using Peppa Pig, which are. Yes. Yes. Yes. 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:37.900 That's fine, actually. It is a stage four construction. 00:18:38.059 --> 00:18:41.960 If you are seeing those grammatical errors, that's 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:44.099 a really nice sort of indicator that that is 00:18:44.099 --> 00:18:46.720 stage four. Another indicator that it is stage 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:49.160 four is if you're seeing that same word being 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:52.539 used really flexibly across different constructions. 00:18:52.539 --> 00:18:55.160 So it's really helpful to start jotting down 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:58.319 a child's language and really sort of looking, 00:18:58.500 --> 00:19:01.619 oh, I've just heard go. Am I seeing go in other 00:19:01.619 --> 00:19:05.210 phrases as well? with other words mixed in there. 00:19:05.509 --> 00:19:09.509 And if I am, I can be fairly confident that that's 00:19:09.509 --> 00:19:13.690 stage four language. Yeah, and it's good. If 00:19:13.690 --> 00:19:17.309 you're not aware of these stages, rather than 00:19:17.309 --> 00:19:19.089 getting, you don't want to get obsessed with 00:19:19.089 --> 00:19:20.869 it as a parent or a teacher, maybe. I mean, this 00:19:20.869 --> 00:19:22.490 is the speech and language therapist and all 00:19:22.490 --> 00:19:24.069 of our job, I suppose. But rather than becoming 00:19:24.069 --> 00:19:26.009 obsessed with it and writing it all down, it's 00:19:26.009 --> 00:19:28.690 just good to have a... brief awareness of these 00:19:28.690 --> 00:19:30.369 because otherwise it could look like a backward 00:19:30.369 --> 00:19:32.710 stare yeah and you could be thinking well hang 00:19:32.710 --> 00:19:35.450 on they used to be able to say that phrase beautifully 00:19:35.450 --> 00:19:38.130 and now they can't what's happened there is that 00:19:38.130 --> 00:19:41.750 we know they've moved on they're now forming 00:19:41.750 --> 00:19:44.210 their own sentences and exciting you don't have 00:19:44.210 --> 00:19:46.579 to be worried about that that's a real fighting 00:19:46.579 --> 00:19:50.339 next step for us yes and it does vary hugely 00:19:50.339 --> 00:19:53.500 between children so you know some children do 00:19:53.500 --> 00:19:57.440 get very quiet when they enter stage three stage 00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:01.400 four and it can look like in air quotes regression 00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:04.420 it's not and it's not regression as you say it's 00:20:04.420 --> 00:20:07.980 just a really important step where they are just 00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:12.619 needing to put a lot more cognitive effort into 00:20:12.619 --> 00:20:15.900 constructing the next word in that phrase um 00:20:15.900 --> 00:20:19.420 some children don't go so quiet i have to say 00:20:19.420 --> 00:20:22.779 so there's no hard and fast rules in this some 00:20:22.779 --> 00:20:25.700 children you know they carry on using a lot of 00:20:25.700 --> 00:20:28.579 their stage one stage two language and some children 00:20:28.579 --> 00:20:31.440 you know move through step the stages quite quickly 00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:33.980 so it's not a hard and fast rule that children 00:20:33.980 --> 00:20:37.190 will go through a really quiet, slow, stage three, 00:20:37.230 --> 00:20:40.230 stage four. But that is a tendency that we see. 00:20:40.309 --> 00:20:42.190 And I would completely agree with you. Don't 00:20:42.190 --> 00:20:44.710 panic if you are a parent or a professional, 00:20:44.769 --> 00:20:47.829 if you see that. Just have a, you know, be curious. 00:20:48.390 --> 00:20:50.490 What is the language that they're using? Has 00:20:50.490 --> 00:20:53.529 it become more referential? Are they sort of 00:20:53.529 --> 00:20:56.289 pointing and showing? And therefore, they're 00:20:56.289 --> 00:20:58.529 really thinking about the exact word that they 00:20:58.529 --> 00:21:00.710 need. And it can be celebrated and validated. 00:21:01.309 --> 00:21:04.690 Yes, absolutely. And the number one advice is, 00:21:04.809 --> 00:21:06.750 just talk naturally to your child so you know 00:21:06.750 --> 00:21:10.730 you really cannot go wrong by just talking naturally 00:21:10.730 --> 00:21:14.450 don't overthink it so you know if you are just 00:21:14.450 --> 00:21:17.049 joining that child in their play you're not trying 00:21:17.049 --> 00:21:20.329 to change anything just say what feels natural 00:21:20.329 --> 00:21:23.430 in that situation and honestly you won't go wrong 00:21:23.430 --> 00:21:25.769 with that. That's really good advice that's totally 00:21:25.769 --> 00:21:28.190 realistic isn't it and then what about stage 00:21:28.190 --> 00:21:33.130 five then? Yeah so stage five is when we just 00:21:33.130 --> 00:21:36.829 start to see more complex grammar coming in so 00:21:36.829 --> 00:21:39.849 this This is where you might, you know, benefit 00:21:39.849 --> 00:21:42.369 from a speech and language therapist to sort 00:21:42.369 --> 00:21:45.309 of roughly guide you through the process. Or 00:21:45.309 --> 00:21:48.069 if you are sort of like a grammar geek, you're 00:21:48.069 --> 00:21:49.630 not a speech and language therapist, but you're 00:21:49.630 --> 00:21:52.829 just curious, you can kind of use a tool which 00:21:52.829 --> 00:21:55.950 is very useful and called developmental sentence 00:21:55.950 --> 00:21:59.529 scoring. So I use that once a child reaches is 00:21:59.529 --> 00:22:02.650 comfortably in stage four and I'm hearing some 00:22:02.650 --> 00:22:05.250 really nice grammatical constructions like different 00:22:05.250 --> 00:22:08.259 verb forms. different pronouns. So pronouns are 00:22:08.259 --> 00:22:12.680 things like I, you, me, mine. Verb tenses might 00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:16.680 change. So we've not only got want, but wanted, 00:22:16.859 --> 00:22:20.329 want to do it. And then things like questions 00:22:20.329 --> 00:22:23.670 might come in and negatives might come in. So 00:22:23.670 --> 00:22:26.750 may not want it. You might start to see that. 00:22:26.890 --> 00:22:29.569 So at that stage, it's really useful to have 00:22:29.569 --> 00:22:32.670 this tool called DSS. And you can literally start 00:22:32.670 --> 00:22:35.410 marking off these grammatical constructions. 00:22:35.410 --> 00:22:39.650 So the DSS has eight levels, slightly confusingly, 00:22:39.650 --> 00:22:42.130 because there's six stages of natural language 00:22:42.130 --> 00:22:46.210 acquisition. And the DSS sort of maps on to stages 00:22:46.210 --> 00:22:48.569 four to six of natural language acquisition. 00:22:48.730 --> 00:22:52.049 But you can use the DSS to just see these constructions 00:22:52.049 --> 00:22:54.890 as they appear. And stage five is the slightly 00:22:54.890 --> 00:22:57.849 more complex grammar that's needed. You know, 00:22:57.869 --> 00:23:00.650 when we're talking about things that might happen 00:23:00.650 --> 00:23:03.930 or could happen, when we're talking more about 00:23:03.930 --> 00:23:07.809 our thought processes. And stage six is the most 00:23:07.809 --> 00:23:12.009 complicated grammar that we see in academic language. 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:16.819 really sort of cerebral conversations. Like it 00:23:16.819 --> 00:23:21.480 could have been that I saw that on Tuesday, but 00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:25.940 I might be confusing that with Wednesday. I'm 00:23:25.940 --> 00:23:28.440 not really sure. So that, you know, that really 00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:31.740 complicated grammar. And then they, are they 00:23:31.740 --> 00:23:35.160 then at the stage where they... have mitigated 00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:37.940 the words they know the meanings of the individual 00:23:37.940 --> 00:23:41.920 words and they can speak as you and i do and 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:43.839 they will always kind of bring those gestalt 00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:46.880 through that process until they get to that stage 00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:50.519 is that I think it varies enormously. And I'm 00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:53.880 always at pains to say that some children and 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:58.799 adults will use stage two language so beautifully 00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:02.859 that that's a stopping off point for them. So 00:24:02.859 --> 00:24:06.220 I think there's a lot of autistic adults who 00:24:06.220 --> 00:24:09.579 just use stage two language so beautifully. It's 00:24:09.579 --> 00:24:12.819 almost like they've got a file or in the old 00:24:12.819 --> 00:24:16.759 terms, a Rolodex of phrase chunks and they can... 00:24:16.809 --> 00:24:21.049 Combine those so flexibly that, you know, they're 00:24:21.049 --> 00:24:24.710 perfectly eloquent and have beautiful language 00:24:24.710 --> 00:24:28.390 using stage two language. And other children 00:24:28.390 --> 00:24:32.589 and adults will kind of make more use of stage 00:24:32.589 --> 00:24:36.730 four, five and six language. And so I think it's 00:24:36.730 --> 00:24:40.230 really, really individual. I don't see that. 00:24:40.910 --> 00:24:43.690 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just always at pains 00:24:43.690 --> 00:24:46.789 to say you can say so much with stage two language. 00:24:46.970 --> 00:24:50.230 Ideally, we want someone to have like super flexible 00:24:50.230 --> 00:24:53.109 stage four and beyond, but it's not necessary. 00:24:53.210 --> 00:24:57.390 And we'd always respect that that person's sort 00:24:57.390 --> 00:25:00.250 of most natural language. So I think, you know, 00:25:00.289 --> 00:25:02.769 a gestalt language processor, a pure gestalt 00:25:02.769 --> 00:25:05.450 language processor, they're always going to have. 00:25:05.960 --> 00:25:07.819 those stage one gestalts because they're just 00:25:07.819 --> 00:25:09.859 so beautiful and so perfect and they're going 00:25:09.859 --> 00:25:13.119 to carry on gathering them as well. So it's always 00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:16.500 going to be a part of their language. What about 00:25:16.500 --> 00:25:20.140 pre -stage one? Because I've definitely seen 00:25:20.140 --> 00:25:25.160 some learners that are repeating actions with 00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:29.039 their body or are a bit sing -songy in the tunes 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:32.019 that they're making with their mouth. They hum 00:25:32.019 --> 00:25:35.640 maybe a tune. They're really excited about certain 00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:38.240 phrases. Maybe they keep watching them over and 00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:40.400 over again. Maybe in their play, they're quite 00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:43.299 repetitive in their play. And I can notice and 00:25:43.299 --> 00:25:47.039 recognize patterns in what they've seen to what 00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:49.299 they're playing and how their body is moving 00:25:49.299 --> 00:25:52.180 in play. Is that gestalt landing processing? 00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:54.759 Is that something different? Well, I think it's 00:25:54.759 --> 00:25:58.420 part of this whole gestaltiness of their processing. 00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:02.980 So, you know, we could call that gestalt. processing 00:26:02.980 --> 00:26:06.779 or gestalt cognitive processing. So Barry Prezant, 00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:11.059 who kind of did a lot of work around echolalia 00:26:11.059 --> 00:26:13.480 and helped us understand that it was meaningful, 00:26:13.720 --> 00:26:18.339 he has a lovely quote, which is, I will mangle 00:26:18.339 --> 00:26:20.900 quotes because I'm not great at quotes. It's 00:26:20.900 --> 00:26:22.559 something along the lines that gestalt language 00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:26.779 process is a manifestation of wider gestalt processing. 00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:31.099 So if you are a gestalt language processor, it's 00:26:31.099 --> 00:26:40.759 highly likely that you also carry out play routines 00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:45.640 in the same way, that you expect events to unfold 00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:48.960 in the same way when you're at that stage one. 00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:51.480 of Gestalt language processing particularly. 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:55.259 So I would say there's not a stage zero. There's 00:26:55.259 --> 00:26:59.660 not one before stage one. But we will likely 00:26:59.660 --> 00:27:04.519 see echopraxis, which is when children act things 00:27:04.519 --> 00:27:07.500 out in their play in the same way. So it might 00:27:07.500 --> 00:27:10.220 be that they order things in the same way each 00:27:10.220 --> 00:27:12.819 time or arrange things in the same way each time, 00:27:12.859 --> 00:27:15.579 or that they're moving their body in a certain 00:27:15.579 --> 00:27:19.160 way in a lovely little routine. Or the first 00:27:19.160 --> 00:27:21.660 time they came into a room, they stood in a particular 00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:24.420 position and then they jumped across the room. 00:27:24.579 --> 00:27:26.920 And so the next time they do it, they'll do it 00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:29.759 in a... exactly the same way so I think that 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:32.359 that's probably just another manifestation of 00:27:32.359 --> 00:27:35.519 their gestalt processing that makes perfect sense 00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:38.940 something I've also seen I've I've had it with 00:27:38.940 --> 00:27:42.619 two children actually that they did have some 00:27:42.619 --> 00:27:46.079 gestalts and some they were I mean gosh some 00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:47.960 of them have kind of gone to the yeah stage four 00:27:47.960 --> 00:27:51.579 stage five now but they still are I mean, they 00:27:51.579 --> 00:27:54.579 are just incredible at using the iPad. So they 00:27:54.579 --> 00:27:57.240 might find, go to BBC iPlay, for example, and 00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:00.119 find the exact episode in the exact point of 00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:02.880 second of something they wish to say. And it 00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:06.839 is always, mostly, there is meaning. There is 00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:11.339 meaning there. Yes, yes, yes. It might be, it's 00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:14.480 too loud in here, or I want a cup of coffee, 00:28:14.539 --> 00:28:18.329 or whatever it is. And I feel like that has to 00:28:18.329 --> 00:28:20.490 be linked too. It's those lovely phrases and 00:28:20.490 --> 00:28:24.549 maybe they haven't had that communication understanding 00:28:24.549 --> 00:28:26.650 there. Absolutely. So that's stage one language. 00:28:26.890 --> 00:28:32.089 So we know around 30 % of autistic children and 00:28:32.089 --> 00:28:36.509 people have an apraxia of speech. So they find 00:28:36.509 --> 00:28:41.180 it really difficult to access speech. So they've 00:28:41.180 --> 00:28:43.359 got lots of language in their head that they 00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:47.539 cannot reliably get out in mouth words. And so 00:28:47.539 --> 00:28:51.960 their stage one might manifest as rewinding and 00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:55.039 replaying or getting to that exact point in a 00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:57.960 YouTube clip. And that is stage one language. 00:28:58.099 --> 00:29:01.400 So they have internalized that phrase and it's 00:29:01.400 --> 00:29:03.779 a gestalt for them. It's a language gestalt for 00:29:03.779 --> 00:29:07.359 them. They just don't have the motor speech coordination 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:11.130 to rely upon. get that out of their mouth as 00:29:11.130 --> 00:29:16.309 mouth words. They might occasionally say something 00:29:16.309 --> 00:29:19.930 and a whole phrase. So, you know, I work with 00:29:19.930 --> 00:29:23.769 one child and his mum will occasionally text 00:29:23.769 --> 00:29:27.430 me and say, I'm sure he just said, I've got you. 00:29:28.130 --> 00:29:31.630 Do you think he did say that? And I always say, 00:29:31.710 --> 00:29:34.289 yes, if you think you heard it, you did. Because 00:29:34.289 --> 00:29:38.430 children who have got, you know, apraxic bodies, 00:29:39.470 --> 00:29:42.170 They might be able to say something once in a 00:29:42.170 --> 00:29:45.289 blue moon, but they can't repeat it. And, you 00:29:45.289 --> 00:29:48.549 know, it must be hugely frustrating for them. 00:29:48.750 --> 00:29:51.009 But that's when we would be looking at supporting 00:29:51.009 --> 00:29:55.009 them with AAC and really honouring those language 00:29:55.009 --> 00:29:57.750 gestalts that they are pulling out from their 00:29:57.750 --> 00:30:01.150 media, from YouTube or their TV programmes or 00:30:01.150 --> 00:30:05.069 films and programming that into their AAC. So, 00:30:05.089 --> 00:30:07.710 yes, I've come across children who, exactly like 00:30:07.710 --> 00:30:09.529 you, they've got this amazing ability. to get 00:30:09.529 --> 00:30:12.289 to exactly the right point in a whole movie. 00:30:12.710 --> 00:30:16.049 It's incredible to watch, isn't it? It's incredible. 00:30:16.210 --> 00:30:19.630 I suppose that even it's just really important 00:30:19.630 --> 00:30:21.549 then that they have access to that because if 00:30:21.549 --> 00:30:23.509 that is their voice, if that's what they've got, 00:30:23.730 --> 00:30:26.759 if you're waiting for... boards to be made or 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:28.400 whatever you know if you're at the stage where 00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:30.519 your child's got this ipad and they are talking 00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:32.759 through it please bring it everywhere please 00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:36.180 keep it charged yes please keep all their programs 00:30:36.180 --> 00:30:37.940 downloaded so you don't need internet and all 00:30:37.940 --> 00:30:40.000 of those things because that is at that point 00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:43.319 is their voice absolutely absolutely and i think 00:30:43.319 --> 00:30:47.579 i've widened my understanding of what aac is 00:30:47.579 --> 00:30:50.240 through working with gestalt language processors 00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:55.329 because for them youtube is an aac tool for them. 00:30:55.410 --> 00:30:59.750 And certainly one young person that I have... 00:30:59.930 --> 00:31:04.089 consulted for, she prefers that modality of communication 00:31:04.089 --> 00:31:08.730 to her AAC. So, you know, she would go to YouTube 00:31:08.730 --> 00:31:11.490 as her default or the Disney channel is for her. 00:31:11.690 --> 00:31:14.529 That's her preferred mode. She likes it in its 00:31:14.529 --> 00:31:17.650 original form. Yes, those phrases are programmed 00:31:17.650 --> 00:31:21.009 into her AAC as well, but there's just something 00:31:21.009 --> 00:31:23.750 beautiful and delightful to her about pulling 00:31:23.750 --> 00:31:26.690 it from its original source. Who are we to say 00:31:26.690 --> 00:31:29.400 what's easier? Yes. Just because it's easier 00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:31.660 for our brains to process that it's one button 00:31:31.660 --> 00:31:34.599 to press. Yeah. I work with a student who definitely, 00:31:34.619 --> 00:31:36.240 definitely, definitely doesn't find that easier. 00:31:36.759 --> 00:31:38.880 I also think it's really interesting that when 00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:42.140 people say, oh, I'm going to simplify the AAC 00:31:42.140 --> 00:31:43.700 because it's just so overwhelming. There's just 00:31:43.700 --> 00:31:45.700 so many folders to navigate. And I think, have 00:31:45.700 --> 00:31:47.900 you seen them on YouTube? They can't even spell 00:31:47.900 --> 00:31:50.359 and type and they always find the phrase and 00:31:50.359 --> 00:31:53.019 video that they need. And that is the whole of 00:31:53.019 --> 00:31:56.359 YouTube. It was at this point that we, the recording. 00:31:57.049 --> 00:32:00.410 messed up and I couldn't not include this episode 00:32:00.410 --> 00:32:02.769 because it's just so good and I love Ali so much 00:32:02.769 --> 00:32:04.789 but just so that you know that we then went on 00:32:04.789 --> 00:32:08.970 to speak about the importance of AAC and we spoke 00:32:08.970 --> 00:32:11.549 about her starting a podcast with Ruth Jones 00:32:11.549 --> 00:32:14.430 who has also been on my podcast and I'm really 00:32:14.430 --> 00:32:18.529 excited to see what they share on their podcast 00:32:18.529 --> 00:32:21.829 I hope to be a guest so that would have already 00:32:21.829 --> 00:32:24.470 started by the time this podcast comes out so 00:32:24.470 --> 00:32:26.369 I'll leave all of the links to that in the description 00:32:26.369 --> 00:32:28.869 below we also spoke about her book as well all 00:32:28.869 --> 00:32:30.670 about gestalt language processing and I'll leave 00:32:30.670 --> 00:32:33.410 that in the link below so I'm really sorry that 00:32:33.410 --> 00:32:36.009 you missed just the last few minutes of the podcast 00:32:36.009 --> 00:32:39.299 but I am so pleased that we did this I'm so pleased 00:32:39.299 --> 00:32:42.000 to record with Ali and I hope that you still 00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:44.680 got a lot out of this episode thank you so much 00:32:44.680 --> 00:32:47.660 Ali follow Ali over on oh god all social media 00:32:47.660 --> 00:32:49.940 left everything in the description below to find 00:32:49.940 --> 00:32:51.880 out all about her offers and her book and everything 00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:54.240 this has been an absolute joy it's my favorite 00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:56.420 topic to talk about and thank you so much for 00:32:56.420 --> 00:32:57.839 sharing your wisdom with us today