WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.680 Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education 00:00:02.680 --> 00:00:06.160 teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:09.119 communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson 00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:11.660 ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged 00:00:11.660 --> 00:00:15.300 4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in 00:00:15.300 --> 00:00:17.640 the field answering your questions and sharing 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:19.559 our knowledge and experience working alongside 00:00:19.559 --> 00:00:22.539 our beautiful young people. Let's get started. 00:00:27.500 --> 00:00:30.300 Hello everybody and welcome to the Sensory Classroom 00:00:30.300 --> 00:00:33.320 podcast. My name is Jordan and today I'm joined 00:00:33.320 --> 00:00:37.399 by Dr. Amy Hodges from Nurtured Minds OT. She 00:00:37.399 --> 00:00:40.020 is an occupational therapist and a lecturer and 00:00:40.020 --> 00:00:41.799 has recently been working on a really important 00:00:41.799 --> 00:00:44.380 project working with neurodivergent children 00:00:44.380 --> 00:00:48.780 in schools and supporting neurodivergent children 00:00:48.780 --> 00:00:52.399 in mainstream school and strategies to support 00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:54.960 educators to set up neuroaffirming practices, 00:00:55.140 --> 00:00:58.600 something incredibly close to my heart. Hi, Amy. 00:00:58.820 --> 00:01:00.859 Hi, Jordan. Thank you so much for having me. 00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:04.920 I'm so pleased you, yeah, we're having this conversation 00:01:04.920 --> 00:01:07.299 today. I don't know if you know, but my special 00:01:07.299 --> 00:01:09.859 education class is attached to a mainstream school. 00:01:10.459 --> 00:01:14.120 So I see the reality of, oh God, I could fill 00:01:14.120 --> 00:01:16.950 my class three times over and... I think the 00:01:16.950 --> 00:01:18.489 work you're doing is really important. I think 00:01:18.489 --> 00:01:20.849 lots of people listening are seeing the same 00:01:20.849 --> 00:01:23.489 thing that I am and maybe not really sure what 00:01:23.489 --> 00:01:25.069 to do about it. So I'm really pleased that someone's 00:01:25.069 --> 00:01:28.549 researching about what to do. Yeah, yeah, definitely. 00:01:29.349 --> 00:01:30.890 Do you want to explain a little bit about what 00:01:30.890 --> 00:01:32.969 you've been working on recently and kind of your 00:01:32.969 --> 00:01:36.189 background and all that? Yeah, yeah. So my background. 00:01:36.810 --> 00:01:39.609 In education really comes through my work as 00:01:39.609 --> 00:01:43.150 a paediatric occupational therapist. So I have 00:01:43.150 --> 00:01:46.150 a PhD in occupational therapy from Curtin University 00:01:46.150 --> 00:01:49.730 in Western Australia and around 15 years of clinical 00:01:49.730 --> 00:01:52.450 and research experience working with children 00:01:52.450 --> 00:01:55.469 and families and schools. I started out in early 00:01:55.469 --> 00:01:58.689 intervention, so I supported young children with 00:01:58.689 --> 00:02:01.390 developmental disabilities in their homes, in 00:02:01.390 --> 00:02:03.930 childcare centres and in community settings. 00:02:04.519 --> 00:02:06.980 And over time, I transitioned to school age therapy 00:02:06.980 --> 00:02:10.039 services, working primarily with autistic students. 00:02:10.259 --> 00:02:13.439 And I spent about seven or eight years visiting 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:15.900 students in mainstream schools and some education 00:02:15.900 --> 00:02:18.419 support settings. I know it's slightly different 00:02:18.419 --> 00:02:21.000 to the UK context. And that's really where my 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:24.770 connection with education. The education system 00:02:24.770 --> 00:02:27.689 began. My work involved quite close collaboration 00:02:27.689 --> 00:02:30.949 with teachers and education assistants and parents 00:02:30.949 --> 00:02:34.430 to try and build understanding and create an 00:02:34.430 --> 00:02:37.169 environment where all students could participate 00:02:37.169 --> 00:02:40.900 meaningfully. And so a big focus of my role was 00:02:40.900 --> 00:02:43.159 empowering teachers and helping them to feel 00:02:43.159 --> 00:02:46.900 confident in supporting autistic students in 00:02:46.900 --> 00:02:49.319 their learning, their participation and their 00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:51.719 well -being in the classroom. So primarily my 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:54.719 experience is in mainstream education settings. 00:02:55.060 --> 00:02:57.659 What kind of things were you seeing? Like when 00:02:57.659 --> 00:03:01.159 you first stepped into those classes, what were 00:03:01.159 --> 00:03:04.599 some common themes that you would always or usually 00:03:04.599 --> 00:03:08.849 see? Yeah, yeah. During my time working with 00:03:08.849 --> 00:03:11.250 school -aged children, I became really interested 00:03:11.250 --> 00:03:13.370 in the area of inclusive education because what 00:03:13.370 --> 00:03:16.930 I was noticing was this cyclical pattern. When 00:03:16.930 --> 00:03:20.310 a child didn't feel included, respected or supported, 00:03:20.629 --> 00:03:23.030 their participation and their well -being at 00:03:23.030 --> 00:03:26.689 school would drop. And then that reduced participation 00:03:26.689 --> 00:03:29.650 would then reinforce their sense of disconnection 00:03:29.650 --> 00:03:33.710 or not belonging and made it even harder for 00:03:33.710 --> 00:03:37.150 them to engage. That kind of really triggered 00:03:37.150 --> 00:03:40.189 me to try and think of how can we break this 00:03:40.189 --> 00:03:42.789 cycle and how can we create environments where 00:03:42.789 --> 00:03:45.610 every child feels connected and valued and supported. 00:03:45.750 --> 00:03:48.449 And that's where that curiosity sort of led me 00:03:48.449 --> 00:03:51.629 to look for evidence -based ways to help students 00:03:51.629 --> 00:03:54.030 experience that genuine sense of belonging and 00:03:54.030 --> 00:03:57.050 inclusion in their everyday life at school. So 00:03:57.050 --> 00:04:00.610 that's when I started my research journey. It's 00:04:00.610 --> 00:04:02.229 so true, isn't it? If you're feeling disconnected, 00:04:02.550 --> 00:04:05.360 then... You kind of maybe take yourself away 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:08.819 maybe or don't put yourself out there as much 00:04:08.819 --> 00:04:11.460 or maybe you're dysregulated. So it's even harder 00:04:11.460 --> 00:04:15.240 to meet a social level when you've already got 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:18.279 so many communication barriers as it is. Yeah. 00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:21.639 It kind of maybe brings a divide in class and 00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:25.160 that only brings more. It magnifies it, doesn't 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:27.899 it? And like you said, that cycle, the lower 00:04:27.899 --> 00:04:29.680 self -esteem they have, maybe they don't, you 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:33.209 know, feel good enough to try, you know. Exactly. 00:04:33.209 --> 00:04:36.910 And then you might see, you know, students acting 00:04:36.910 --> 00:04:39.529 out or having some behaviours in class that aren't 00:04:39.529 --> 00:04:41.389 expected and then they're getting into trouble 00:04:41.389 --> 00:04:43.490 and then they then feel bad about themselves 00:04:43.490 --> 00:04:46.350 and then it's just this terrible spiral of, and 00:04:46.350 --> 00:04:49.910 so if we can find ways of supporting these students 00:04:49.910 --> 00:04:52.629 and for everyone also to increase their understanding 00:04:52.629 --> 00:04:57.569 and awareness and empathy, actually understand 00:04:57.569 --> 00:05:02.220 what they can do to include others. then it would 00:05:02.220 --> 00:05:04.860 be a much more supportive space. Absolutely. 00:05:04.899 --> 00:05:07.040 And I think everyone would agree with that. It's 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:09.800 just what that looks like. So thinking about 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:14.459 your testing, how did you navigate that? Yeah. 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:17.980 Yeah. So what I, my research focused on developing 00:05:17.980 --> 00:05:21.600 and testing an intervention called In My Shoes. 00:05:21.620 --> 00:05:25.040 So it's a teacher led. whole class program that's 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:28.759 designed to be delivered to grade three and grade 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:32.180 four classrooms to help students build empathy 00:05:32.180 --> 00:05:35.079 and understand others' perspectives and take 00:05:35.079 --> 00:05:37.720 inclusive actions to support peers who might 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:40.899 be finding things difficult at school. And the 00:05:40.899 --> 00:05:43.860 idea was to create something that could be delivered 00:05:43.860 --> 00:05:46.579 by the classroom teacher to the whole class as 00:05:46.579 --> 00:05:49.540 part of everyday learning. to help foster a more 00:05:49.540 --> 00:05:52.639 connected and inclusive classroom culture. So 00:05:52.639 --> 00:05:55.459 the program has a variety of resources. There's 00:05:55.459 --> 00:05:57.540 some comic strip style illustrations, there's 00:05:57.540 --> 00:06:00.860 video -based resources, and it comes with a teacher 00:06:00.860 --> 00:06:04.439 manual that has 10 structured lesson plans. So 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:06.759 in Australia, we have 10 weeks in a term, and 00:06:06.759 --> 00:06:08.500 I know it's slightly different in the UK, but 00:06:08.500 --> 00:06:10.879 it's designed to be delivered across a school 00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:15.540 term in Australian schools. And developing the 00:06:15.540 --> 00:06:18.100 program, what we did was we gathered insights 00:06:18.100 --> 00:06:21.079 from the literature as well as parents and educators 00:06:21.079 --> 00:06:23.800 and researchers in the field about what should 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:26.600 be included. So things like the most effective. 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:29.939 techniques to use, how often the sessions should 00:06:29.939 --> 00:06:32.060 run, how long they should be and what they should 00:06:32.060 --> 00:06:34.360 include. And then what we did is we pilot tested 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:37.720 the program in eight mainstream classrooms across 00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:40.399 Perth in Western Australia. And what we were 00:06:40.399 --> 00:06:42.860 really trying to test is first, the most important 00:06:42.860 --> 00:06:44.459 thing in classrooms, as you're probably aware, 00:06:44.500 --> 00:06:47.199 is feasibility. Can teachers actually realistically 00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:50.180 deliver this program? Is it appropriate? So how 00:06:50.180 --> 00:06:52.300 do teachers and parents and students receive 00:06:52.300 --> 00:06:56.370 the program? And then we did some preliminary 00:06:56.370 --> 00:06:58.529 testing on effectiveness. So does it actually 00:06:58.529 --> 00:07:01.129 help students to feel more included and connected 00:07:01.129 --> 00:07:04.629 at school? So that was sort of how we structured 00:07:04.629 --> 00:07:07.470 the research and how it was developed and tested. 00:07:08.029 --> 00:07:12.069 And then what were your findings? What was the 00:07:12.069 --> 00:07:14.610 difference from before the program to after? 00:07:16.509 --> 00:07:18.410 And like I said, it was a pilot test, so still 00:07:18.410 --> 00:07:20.970 relatively small sample size. And I can talk 00:07:20.970 --> 00:07:23.569 more about what we're doing for more research 00:07:23.569 --> 00:07:26.069 to further test it. But overall, In My Shoes 00:07:26.069 --> 00:07:28.509 was really well received by teachers and parents 00:07:28.509 --> 00:07:31.509 and educators. Parents and educators appreciated 00:07:31.509 --> 00:07:34.050 that it supported inclusion for the whole class, 00:07:34.129 --> 00:07:36.829 not just focusing on individual students, because 00:07:36.829 --> 00:07:38.589 obviously it's feasible, but also we're trying 00:07:38.589 --> 00:07:42.350 to teach all children to build those skills. 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:44.379 Yeah, and the program might highlight the differences 00:07:44.379 --> 00:07:46.620 even more, which might make them feel even more 00:07:46.620 --> 00:07:51.100 ostracized, maybe. Whereas everybody, yeah, everybody 00:07:51.100 --> 00:07:53.339 has something that makes them feel different 00:07:53.339 --> 00:07:55.720 from each other and they can kind of relate on 00:07:55.720 --> 00:07:58.120 that way rather than highlighting you're different 00:07:58.120 --> 00:08:02.100 because. Exactly. Yeah, and the program really 00:08:02.100 --> 00:08:05.959 is like strengths -based, but it's more like 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:08.879 we're all different, we're all unique. So it 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:12.149 definitely doesn't try to. single any particular 00:08:12.149 --> 00:08:14.889 student out in any way. But what we found was 00:08:14.889 --> 00:08:17.589 that the program did improve participation and 00:08:17.589 --> 00:08:20.129 feelings of connectedness, not just for autistic 00:08:20.129 --> 00:08:23.129 students, but for their peers. And the data showed 00:08:23.129 --> 00:08:26.829 that it was an increase in student report, so 00:08:26.829 --> 00:08:29.370 self -report engagement. So the children themselves 00:08:29.370 --> 00:08:31.959 felt like they were engaging more. They had more 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:35.399 motivation to engage and they had a better understanding 00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:39.519 of autism and students' perception of peer support 00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:42.120 also improved. So that was really great to see. 00:08:42.299 --> 00:08:44.679 We also received some really constructive feedback 00:08:44.679 --> 00:08:46.899 on how we can make the program even stronger. 00:08:47.080 --> 00:08:49.159 There was some suggestions around incorporating 00:08:49.159 --> 00:08:51.600 some more technology into the lesson plans, digital 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:54.419 resources, reducing the reliance on worksheets 00:08:54.419 --> 00:08:56.639 and to make lessons more engaging and accessible 00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:59.279 and broadening the scope to all neurodivergent 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:01.830 students, not just those. on the autism spectrum. 00:09:02.149 --> 00:09:06.309 And so those insights are shaping the next phase 00:09:06.309 --> 00:09:09.149 of development. I mean, we're now, we've got 00:09:09.149 --> 00:09:11.889 a PhD student in the UK, actually, at Northumbria 00:09:11.889 --> 00:09:14.429 University, who's adapting In My Shoes for the 00:09:14.429 --> 00:09:17.690 UK context, because there are some cultural differences, 00:09:17.909 --> 00:09:19.909 obviously, and they're testing it in schools 00:09:19.909 --> 00:09:23.330 across the UK. So that's really exciting. And 00:09:23.330 --> 00:09:25.049 the findings from all this research has been 00:09:25.049 --> 00:09:27.750 published. I'm really happy to share those papers 00:09:27.750 --> 00:09:31.220 if anyone's interested in reading more. Fantastic. 00:09:31.220 --> 00:09:34.860 It sounds so helpful. I'm so pleased that it's 00:09:34.860 --> 00:09:38.799 getting spread because this is a worldwide issue 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:41.820 that children, yeah, are feeling ostracized. 00:09:42.039 --> 00:09:45.019 Had some research as part of my, one of my trainings 00:09:45.019 --> 00:09:48.460 I lead actually, and they said usually around 00:09:48.460 --> 00:09:51.740 mental health and usually one in four people 00:09:51.740 --> 00:09:55.419 will suffer poor mental health at some point 00:09:55.419 --> 00:09:58.860 in their lives. Neurotypical. that all suffer. 00:09:59.019 --> 00:10:01.240 If you have a cognitive disability, then that 00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:05.100 jumps up massively to around 60%. And then if 00:10:05.100 --> 00:10:06.919 you have a physical and cognitive disability, 00:10:07.100 --> 00:10:09.940 then it goes to about 84%. But of course, that 00:10:09.940 --> 00:10:12.860 bracket is really hard to also get research around. 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:15.700 If you have a physical and cognitive disability, 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:18.440 so it's actually, bear in mind, like it's quite 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:21.259 hard to gather that data. And so it could be 00:10:21.259 --> 00:10:23.419 more than that, you know, it's really hard to 00:10:23.419 --> 00:10:26.019 test. And I can't hear those numbers and not 00:10:26.019 --> 00:10:29.149 want to do something about that. I know. And 00:10:29.149 --> 00:10:32.649 that doesn't, it stretches beyond special education. 00:10:33.009 --> 00:10:35.490 You know, I feel like sometimes the children 00:10:35.490 --> 00:10:40.450 that suffer, that are in mainstream suffer just 00:10:40.450 --> 00:10:42.409 as much or even more sometimes. They don't have 00:10:42.409 --> 00:10:44.490 the same support systems. They don't have the 00:10:44.490 --> 00:10:47.769 same understanding and the adult support. They 00:10:47.769 --> 00:10:51.169 have a heightened awareness of social norms and 00:10:51.169 --> 00:10:53.450 feeling different. Whereas some of the children 00:10:53.450 --> 00:10:56.440 in my class. You know, they live in their happy, 00:10:56.539 --> 00:10:58.320 beautiful little world and they couldn't care 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:01.000 less what anyone else thinks. Yeah. And in some 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:04.220 ways that's harder. I agree. In other ways, that's 00:11:04.220 --> 00:11:05.720 a little bit easier. It's a little bit softer. 00:11:06.059 --> 00:11:09.960 They can be their free selves and have no awareness 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:15.139 of the judgment of others. Whereas I see some 00:11:15.139 --> 00:11:18.460 of our mainstream peers and they do. They see 00:11:18.460 --> 00:11:21.940 it. They feel different. They're being ostracized. 00:11:21.940 --> 00:11:25.070 They're aware they're different. That social 00:11:25.070 --> 00:11:27.570 awareness, I think, makes them really vulnerable. 00:11:28.570 --> 00:11:31.649 Also, lots of my students in my class will always 00:11:31.649 --> 00:11:33.809 have an adult with them. That keeps them safe. 00:11:33.990 --> 00:11:37.809 Yeah. Whereas the mainstream peers, not as much 00:11:37.809 --> 00:11:40.850 support. And often there's an expectation that 00:11:40.850 --> 00:11:43.789 students will fit the mold rather than providing 00:11:43.789 --> 00:11:46.909 supports to adapt the environment for them to 00:11:46.909 --> 00:11:49.480 fill. Comfortable and confident. Absolutely. 00:11:49.700 --> 00:11:53.360 And they see a still looking ready child and 00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:57.279 actually under the surface, you know, it's masking. 00:11:57.360 --> 00:11:59.679 Under the surface, they're really, really struggling. 00:12:00.100 --> 00:12:01.860 Whereas maybe with some of my students in my 00:12:01.860 --> 00:12:04.320 class, it's really obvious. They don't hide for 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:07.139 the sake of anybody else. You know, they're very 00:12:07.139 --> 00:12:11.580 much their free sensory seeking selves. In mainstream, 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:13.679 they're aware of rules. They want to please. 00:12:13.740 --> 00:12:16.059 They desperately want to be liked and have friends. 00:12:16.889 --> 00:12:19.009 be included you know we're talking about inclusion 00:12:19.009 --> 00:12:24.049 they want to belong and over time you know maybe 00:12:24.049 --> 00:12:28.769 not if they're even openly spoken to but just 00:12:28.769 --> 00:12:32.250 be an awareness of everyone else around them 00:12:32.250 --> 00:12:34.269 and school rules and all of those things it's 00:12:34.269 --> 00:12:38.190 kind of embedded that they have to mask even 00:12:38.190 --> 00:12:40.029 if it's not said directly to them i'm sure sometimes 00:12:40.029 --> 00:12:42.830 it is said directly to them too yeah but that 00:12:42.830 --> 00:12:45.710 breeds yeah Really poor mental health, masking, 00:12:45.889 --> 00:12:48.370 exhaustion, burnout at home. I mean, gosh, I've 00:12:48.370 --> 00:12:50.210 spoken to so many parents on this podcast that 00:12:50.210 --> 00:12:53.929 talk about after -school burnout. 100%. It's 00:12:53.929 --> 00:12:55.509 all of those things. Let it all go when they 00:12:55.509 --> 00:12:59.570 get home. Yeah. The outcome, the sense of school 00:12:59.570 --> 00:13:03.370 connectedness has had a lot of research associated 00:13:03.370 --> 00:13:06.250 with it, more so in mainstream, but it has been 00:13:06.250 --> 00:13:08.610 linked to those. A reduced sense of school connectedness 00:13:08.610 --> 00:13:11.669 can really have very adverse long -term outcomes. 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:16.240 poorer mental health outcomes, poorer employment 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:18.960 opportunities and those sorts of things in later 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:22.960 lives. There is definitely a significant reason 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:27.019 to start investing time and effort and resources 00:13:27.019 --> 00:13:30.600 early on in education to sort of break that. 00:13:30.889 --> 00:13:33.429 that cycle so that students do feel supported. 00:13:33.509 --> 00:13:35.669 They feel included. They feel like they can be 00:13:35.669 --> 00:13:37.909 their authentic selves and thrive rather than 00:13:37.909 --> 00:13:40.570 constantly being made to try and fit into a mold 00:13:40.570 --> 00:13:43.149 that isn't supportive. Yeah. And I wonder if 00:13:43.149 --> 00:13:44.809 it's not just the children learning that, it's 00:13:44.809 --> 00:13:46.730 all of the adults in the room that are there 00:13:46.730 --> 00:13:49.809 during your sessions too, because it starts from 00:13:49.809 --> 00:13:51.769 there, doesn't it? They're also hearing this 00:13:51.769 --> 00:13:53.409 language. They're also probably learning things 00:13:53.409 --> 00:13:55.889 about autism that they didn't know. Yeah. And 00:13:55.889 --> 00:14:00.360 it starts from the outside in. the whole school 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:03.120 because they're bought into this you know your 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:06.500 strategy they've bought into the research they're 00:14:06.500 --> 00:14:09.700 gonna embed that and take it really seriously 00:14:09.700 --> 00:14:12.919 across the whole school and i think there's something 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:15.279 said about that rather than it just being one 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:17.480 person that watched a great video on tiktok and 00:14:17.480 --> 00:14:20.720 trying to change the school is so hard in comparison 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:24.639 to an like invested system that is you know pushed 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:27.929 out across the entire school that has time and 00:14:27.929 --> 00:14:31.809 finances dedicated to making it work yeah definitely 00:14:31.809 --> 00:14:36.210 makes it a much more successful definitely and 00:14:36.210 --> 00:14:39.649 of course schools who agreed to participate in 00:14:39.649 --> 00:14:43.549 the research obviously are probably coming from 00:14:43.549 --> 00:14:45.610 a more positive school culture around inclusion 00:14:45.610 --> 00:14:48.090 because they're voluntarily participating their 00:14:48.090 --> 00:14:50.570 time. But what we really tried to make a big 00:14:50.570 --> 00:14:52.870 effort in when developing the program is that 00:14:52.870 --> 00:14:55.509 it was supposed to replace aspects of the existing 00:14:55.509 --> 00:14:58.740 health curriculum. looked very closely at the 00:14:58.740 --> 00:15:00.940 Australian curriculum and what needs to sort 00:15:00.940 --> 00:15:03.820 of be met in those areas and made sure that each 00:15:03.820 --> 00:15:06.820 lesson plan sort of addressed some of those curriculum 00:15:06.820 --> 00:15:09.000 outcomes so that the teachers didn't feel like 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:11.080 this was something in addition to everything 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:13.039 else that they need to do as part of their school 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:15.379 day. So that's really important to get school 00:15:15.379 --> 00:15:19.750 buy -in. And support for sure. But one of the 00:15:19.750 --> 00:15:22.009 things I've noticed in Australia anyway is that 00:15:22.009 --> 00:15:24.870 for mainstream teachers, there isn't a lot of 00:15:24.870 --> 00:15:26.850 support and there isn't a lot of training to 00:15:26.850 --> 00:15:29.649 support their understanding of autism or neurodivergence 00:15:29.649 --> 00:15:32.610 in general. And there is increasingly more and 00:15:32.610 --> 00:15:35.570 more neurodivergent students in mainstream school. 00:15:35.710 --> 00:15:39.789 And so this is a real big gap for teachers. It's 00:15:39.789 --> 00:15:42.429 a huge gap. It's the reason why my account has 00:15:42.429 --> 00:15:46.769 blown up how it has. teacher is a special education 00:15:46.769 --> 00:15:49.309 teacher, like whether you choose to go into that 00:15:49.309 --> 00:15:52.070 school or not. It is, you know, there's such 00:15:52.070 --> 00:15:56.230 a huge range of diversities across the entirety 00:15:56.230 --> 00:15:59.149 of education. So if you're being a teacher, you 00:15:59.149 --> 00:16:01.250 are a special education teacher. And yeah, the 00:16:01.250 --> 00:16:05.649 lack of training in that area is appalling. It's 00:16:05.649 --> 00:16:09.570 so shocking. And it does take outside agencies 00:16:09.570 --> 00:16:13.250 like yourself to come in and fill in the gaps. 00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:16.419 their understanding um it's not through want 00:16:16.419 --> 00:16:19.220 of trying i'm sure teachers come into this job 00:16:19.220 --> 00:16:22.019 wanting the best for all of their students it 00:16:22.019 --> 00:16:24.360 just comes down to a lack of training and and 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:27.460 understanding and that's where we come in with 00:16:27.460 --> 00:16:30.820 all of our evidence -based research and all we 00:16:30.820 --> 00:16:32.879 need is a listening ear and a willing budget 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:36.179 holder which is usually there to invest in this 00:16:36.179 --> 00:16:39.200 to change as well yeah i mean that's the most 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:41.519 That's the scariest sentence, isn't it? But we've 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:44.879 always done it this way. So, yeah, a willingness 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:49.120 to change and an awareness of flaws in what you're 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:51.240 doing already. You know, you said, oh, maybe 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:54.019 these are schools that are doing that anyway. 00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:55.820 Or maybe they're just schools that are just self 00:16:55.820 --> 00:16:59.100 -aware and they can see the gaps that need to 00:16:59.100 --> 00:17:01.600 be filled. So maybe it's like conversation about 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:04.779 awareness as well. Knowing what it could be, 00:17:04.819 --> 00:17:07.740 but knowing that it can be different. Just not 00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:10.440 knowing what that looks like. definitely that's 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:13.039 the first step for change i think yeah just an 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:15.839 awareness yeah yeah and i suppose that's where 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:17.299 this conversation comes i'm hoping that people 00:17:17.299 --> 00:17:21.900 listening to this will reflect in that way you 00:17:21.900 --> 00:17:25.680 know but like maybe they are doing some inclusive 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.559 practices maybe they have made some changes but 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:31.700 also reflect on but what else could we do you 00:17:31.700 --> 00:17:35.019 know i'm sure that there's somebody in your class 00:17:35.019 --> 00:17:39.319 that maybe doesn't feel as belonging as another 00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:42.180 person so what could we do that I'm sure there's 00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:44.660 every class I mean I can certainly think of a 00:17:44.660 --> 00:17:46.539 student in every single class that I've had in 00:17:46.539 --> 00:17:50.119 16 years that maybe hasn't felt as a sense of 00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:53.779 belonging as the rest of the group so I'm sure 00:17:53.779 --> 00:17:55.720 there's always something that can more that can 00:17:55.720 --> 00:17:58.660 be done definitely yeah what are you currently 00:17:58.660 --> 00:18:02.059 working on in the development of this you said 00:18:02.059 --> 00:18:03.940 you were stretching out to more schools maybe 00:18:03.940 --> 00:18:07.519 adding more Yeah, yeah. So in terms of the research, 00:18:07.579 --> 00:18:10.599 we have the PhD student in the UK who's adapting 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:13.460 it for the UK context. So some of the resources, 00:18:13.559 --> 00:18:15.539 things to make them more culturally appropriate. 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:19.319 And she's going to be pilot testing that across 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:23.160 the country there. We are also in the process 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:26.119 of looking for grants and PhD students in Australia 00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:28.460 to do the next phase of the research, which will 00:18:28.460 --> 00:18:31.440 involve a randomized controlled trial. So what 00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:33.980 we'll do is we'll adapt the program to be a... 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.039 broaden its scope for all neurodivergent learners 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:40.579 and then test it through a randomized control 00:18:40.579 --> 00:18:43.140 trial. So there'll be more schools participating 00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:45.460 and some schools would receive the intervention 00:18:45.460 --> 00:18:48.099 first and then others would wait and then we 00:18:48.099 --> 00:18:51.759 would compare the results between that. So that's 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:54.259 kind of where we're at with the research side 00:18:54.259 --> 00:18:59.140 of things. But I'm sort of moving, like I've 00:18:59.140 --> 00:19:01.099 been living in Vancouver for the past three and 00:19:01.099 --> 00:19:04.180 a half years and raising my four. children and 00:19:04.180 --> 00:19:06.619 my family's planning to relocate back to Australia 00:19:06.619 --> 00:19:09.460 at the end of this year and during my time in 00:19:09.460 --> 00:19:11.759 Vancouver I did do some private practice work 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:14.619 but now I'm looking to ease into the transition 00:19:14.619 --> 00:19:18.160 of my own business which is called Nurtured Minds 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:21.880 OT and my focus with that is to support and empower 00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:24.759 neurodivergent students and their parents and 00:19:24.759 --> 00:19:28.099 their educators. in the community and as I ease 00:19:28.099 --> 00:19:31.059 into this space I'm starting by offering live 00:19:31.059 --> 00:19:33.440 and on -demand workshops on my website which 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:36.000 is coming soon and then we'll gradually move 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:38.259 towards providing face -to -face support for 00:19:38.259 --> 00:19:41.180 neurodivergent students at home and at schools 00:19:41.180 --> 00:19:45.099 while also supporting their parents and educators. 00:19:45.380 --> 00:19:50.380 So my first workshop that I plan to run is called 00:19:50.380 --> 00:19:52.559 Foundations of Thriving and will be available 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:55.619 on my website. It's designed to help parents 00:19:55.619 --> 00:19:58.480 understand neurodivergence in a strengths -based, 00:19:58.779 --> 00:20:01.740 neuroaffirming way, to navigate conversations 00:20:01.740 --> 00:20:05.519 with educators, friends and family and to build, 00:20:05.619 --> 00:20:08.619 like what we were talking about before, self 00:20:08.619 --> 00:20:11.390 -awareness, their child's self -awareness. their 00:20:11.390 --> 00:20:13.670 child's self -confidence and then obviously their 00:20:13.670 --> 00:20:17.089 later ability to advocate for themselves at home 00:20:17.089 --> 00:20:20.970 and at school. So that's sort of where I'm transitioning 00:20:20.970 --> 00:20:24.470 into, kind of eclectic mix of research and clinical 00:20:24.470 --> 00:20:27.410 work. I think it's really exciting and I love 00:20:27.410 --> 00:20:31.049 everything you're saying. you're not talking 00:20:31.049 --> 00:20:34.309 about what we can add or change with the child 00:20:34.309 --> 00:20:36.410 you're talking about the school you're talking 00:20:36.410 --> 00:20:38.369 about their peers you're talking about the environment 00:20:38.369 --> 00:20:41.829 the parents the home you're never talking about 00:20:41.829 --> 00:20:44.750 this is what you should be doing because we're 00:20:44.750 --> 00:20:46.569 just celebrating them and letting them be them 00:20:46.569 --> 00:20:50.109 right yeah it's an acceptance around them that 00:20:50.109 --> 00:20:53.190 makes their life different and that does make 00:20:53.190 --> 00:20:56.200 then make a change Yeah. And that's why I think 00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:58.240 the In My Shoes program is so unique because 00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:01.700 there are so many programs that look to try and 00:21:01.700 --> 00:21:04.700 support the neurodivergent child or autistic 00:21:04.700 --> 00:21:07.000 child to build skills in a certain area. But 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:10.460 in doing so, sometimes we forget that actually, 00:21:10.579 --> 00:21:13.319 if the environment was more supportive and if 00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:16.579 the environment had some changes, they could 00:21:16.579 --> 00:21:22.859 thrive. They can live their life as their authentic 00:21:22.859 --> 00:21:25.220 selves while also building skills. Everyone needs 00:21:25.220 --> 00:21:27.960 to build skills, but my focus is around supporting 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:31.339 the environment. Absolutely. I watched a lecture 00:21:31.339 --> 00:21:33.619 from the autistic professional speaker. I don't 00:21:33.619 --> 00:21:36.359 know if you know of him. He's in America, an 00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:42.599 autistic, incredible lecturer and started, well, 00:21:42.660 --> 00:21:45.119 is autistic, but started life as a non -speaking 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:49.200 four -year -old. So he has an incredible insight. 00:21:50.050 --> 00:21:52.650 into that we can all learn from and he starts 00:21:52.650 --> 00:21:55.869 his lecture saying exactly that why are we spending 00:21:55.869 --> 00:21:59.089 so much time trying to teach our children how 00:21:59.089 --> 00:22:01.589 to fit in where we could spend that time teaching 00:22:01.589 --> 00:22:04.230 the world how to accept them I just think yeah 00:22:04.230 --> 00:22:08.089 that's it isn't it yeah 100 % and I love that 00:22:08.089 --> 00:22:11.029 you're in all your work actually your research 00:22:11.029 --> 00:22:15.160 project and what you're doing now reflects that 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:18.440 message also that it's not about the child changing 00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:21.259 it's just about the environment and suiting them 00:22:21.259 --> 00:22:24.759 and accepting them and understanding them I suppose 00:22:24.759 --> 00:22:28.859 yeah definitely yeah that's my that's my passion 00:22:28.859 --> 00:22:31.920 yeah I'm right there with you I'm right there 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:34.480 with you girl I suppose that leads on beautifully 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:37.460 with the teachers listening what would you like 00:22:37.460 --> 00:22:40.059 to see you know having done all of your research 00:22:40.059 --> 00:22:42.400 over all those years What would you like to see 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:45.259 in every mainstream classroom? What makes your 00:22:45.259 --> 00:22:48.660 heart sing when you step into a classroom and 00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:51.900 you, yeah, what makes your heart sing? So like 00:22:51.900 --> 00:22:54.740 we were just talking about, I'd love to see neurodivergent 00:22:54.740 --> 00:22:57.599 students feel fully included as their authentic 00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:00.339 selves without needing to mask or to fit in. 00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:04.180 I would love classrooms, I've got goosebumps 00:23:04.180 --> 00:23:06.940 when I say these things, but I would love classrooms 00:23:06.940 --> 00:23:11.109 too where everyone can see and celebrate. the 00:23:11.109 --> 00:23:14.009 brilliance in difference, different ways of thinking, 00:23:14.309 --> 00:23:16.069 different ways of learning, different ways of 00:23:16.069 --> 00:23:18.809 experiencing the world. Because when schools 00:23:18.809 --> 00:23:21.269 truly embrace these differences, it doesn't just, 00:23:21.470 --> 00:23:23.109 and that's what we saw from the research, it 00:23:23.109 --> 00:23:24.869 doesn't just benefit the neurodivergent students. 00:23:25.029 --> 00:23:27.829 It actually enriches the entire classroom and 00:23:27.829 --> 00:23:31.309 creates such a culture of understanding and respect 00:23:31.309 --> 00:23:35.140 and curiosity. So yeah, my vision. My vision 00:23:35.140 --> 00:23:37.839 walking into any mainstream classroom is that 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:40.180 every student feels like they belong, that they're 00:23:40.180 --> 00:23:42.460 respected, that they're valued for who they are. 00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:46.220 And so the school environment is not only inclusive, 00:23:46.380 --> 00:23:50.359 but also a place where everyone can thrive. I'm 00:23:50.359 --> 00:23:52.660 really interested to see, and maybe this is research 00:23:52.660 --> 00:23:55.299 for someone else, but I'm really interested to 00:23:55.299 --> 00:23:57.420 see that these schools that you're working with, 00:23:57.420 --> 00:24:00.480 with this research project. If it then, that 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:03.819 acceptance bleeds into the culture of the school 00:24:03.819 --> 00:24:07.680 for the adults too. Yes. It can be really tricky 00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:10.819 places for adults with neurodivergence. All of 00:24:10.819 --> 00:24:12.380 us, you know, we're talking about all the children, 00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:14.319 we're offering support systems for the children 00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:17.359 and these adults are having to zip it up and 00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:20.779 mask and get on by and there's no support systems 00:24:20.779 --> 00:24:24.220 or scaffolding for them. So I'm really interested 00:24:24.220 --> 00:24:29.690 to find out if the culture shifts. Everybody. 00:24:29.690 --> 00:24:33.529 Yeah. Well, part of the, it's a multifaceted 00:24:33.529 --> 00:24:35.250 program. So I mentioned there's a whole class 00:24:35.250 --> 00:24:37.789 lesson plans, but there is also a whole school 00:24:37.789 --> 00:24:40.410 component to the program where there's activity 00:24:40.410 --> 00:24:42.349 ideas and things that can be done at a whole 00:24:42.349 --> 00:24:45.509 school level to try and help to shift the culture 00:24:45.509 --> 00:24:48.049 at a whole school level. When we did the pilot. 00:24:48.619 --> 00:24:51.079 It was the midst of COVID and things. So what 00:24:51.079 --> 00:24:53.079 we found from the research is that a few of the 00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:56.900 whole school activity ideas and strategies weren't 00:24:56.900 --> 00:25:00.180 put into place in their entirety because of issues 00:25:00.180 --> 00:25:03.700 around COVID and distancing and not allowing 00:25:03.700 --> 00:25:07.200 extra bodies on site like parents to come for 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:09.920 events at school and things like that. But definitely 00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:13.200 in order for there to be change, you need to 00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:15.759 sort of combat it at an individual level, at 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:17.759 a class level, and then at a whole school level 00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:20.650 as well. Yeah, absolutely. And then that term 00:25:20.650 --> 00:25:26.230 has such a huge impact. And little lessons can 00:25:26.230 --> 00:25:29.410 actually change and shift an entire culture that 00:25:29.410 --> 00:25:31.750 could keep colleagues in their job, in their 00:25:31.750 --> 00:25:34.069 work, could make them feel more satisfied in 00:25:34.069 --> 00:25:38.029 their job. Then that breeds co -regulation. The 00:25:38.029 --> 00:25:39.829 adults are more regulated and feel satisfied 00:25:39.829 --> 00:25:41.410 in their work. Well, then they're going to be 00:25:41.410 --> 00:25:43.869 better teachers and better support assistants 00:25:43.869 --> 00:25:46.430 that support the students, aren't they? There's 00:25:46.430 --> 00:25:49.710 that culture shift. It'd be really exciting to 00:25:49.710 --> 00:25:52.230 see the research on that too, because it's that 00:25:52.230 --> 00:25:54.630 certainly something that I'm also witnessing 00:25:54.630 --> 00:25:57.829 is that neurodivergent people in school aren't 00:25:57.829 --> 00:26:04.029 just students. And actually, yeah, they're everybody 00:26:04.029 --> 00:26:06.990 from caretakers, receptionists to all teaching 00:26:06.990 --> 00:26:10.289 staff. The percentages stay the same with the 00:26:10.289 --> 00:26:12.309 adult community. So if we're seeing those percentages 00:26:12.309 --> 00:26:14.369 in school, we're seeing the same percentages 00:26:14.369 --> 00:26:16.630 of adults. Yeah, that's something I'm really 00:26:16.630 --> 00:26:19.609 passionate about as well is just an awareness 00:26:19.609 --> 00:26:24.970 of support needs in meetings and meeting schedules. 00:26:25.029 --> 00:26:27.690 Some people needing extra time, processing time, 00:26:27.829 --> 00:26:31.390 all of those things still exist. It doesn't just 00:26:31.390 --> 00:26:34.569 disappear when somebody turns 12. It very much 00:26:34.569 --> 00:26:37.630 exists. And how good would it be if the adults 00:26:37.630 --> 00:26:41.369 were, you know, build from this, they could build 00:26:41.369 --> 00:26:43.470 their self -awareness of that and be a great 00:26:43.470 --> 00:26:46.609 role model to the younger students to see like, 00:26:46.650 --> 00:26:49.329 I struggle with this and this is what makes it 00:26:49.329 --> 00:26:52.329 easier for me. I really hope that's what comes 00:26:52.329 --> 00:26:54.529 from it. And I think how empowering for those 00:26:54.529 --> 00:26:57.809 neurodivergent pupils that can have those conversations 00:26:57.809 --> 00:27:00.559 with adults that. are successful. You know, they've 00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:02.519 got a great job. They've got a great family. 00:27:02.660 --> 00:27:04.940 They can talk about all the wonderful things 00:27:04.940 --> 00:27:07.140 that their neurodiversity has brought their life. 00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:10.480 I think that is so powerful for a child to hear 00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:14.380 that rather than maybe just hearing the downsides. 00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:16.940 Yeah. Because they are both. It's very balanced. 00:27:17.079 --> 00:27:19.319 From a neurodivergent adult myself, it's really 00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:21.200 balanced. There's some incredible things that 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:24.180 my brain does and I'm so grateful for them. And 00:27:24.180 --> 00:27:27.819 then it can be incredibly debilitating too. I 00:27:27.819 --> 00:27:30.559 think just having that conversation of both of 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.180 those things could be really helpful yeah so 00:27:33.180 --> 00:27:36.440 powerful for sure yeah and maybe like a little 00:27:36.440 --> 00:27:38.640 bit of a role model in that way you know we all 00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:40.400 need role models that we can look up to and see 00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:43.720 ourselves reflected in in them and maybe that 00:27:43.720 --> 00:27:46.920 might help a little bit of hope I suppose yeah 00:27:47.339 --> 00:27:50.140 Definitely. So what are some simple strategies 00:27:50.140 --> 00:27:52.839 that could support every child? You know, we're 00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:54.740 talking about these 10 lessons. I suppose we 00:27:54.740 --> 00:27:57.099 haven't gone into too much about what they involve. 00:27:57.480 --> 00:27:59.259 Do you have any simple strategies that we could 00:27:59.259 --> 00:28:01.200 take from this podcast and start right away? 00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:04.940 Yeah, yeah. So just generally some simple strategies 00:28:04.940 --> 00:28:08.119 to support every child. I feel like whole class 00:28:08.119 --> 00:28:11.319 regulation strategies would be really helpful. 00:28:11.460 --> 00:28:14.279 So taking breaks, using tools or practicing self 00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:17.730 -regulation. So it's not seen as different, but 00:28:17.730 --> 00:28:21.049 a normal part of daily school life for everyone. 00:28:21.250 --> 00:28:23.509 And this is the first step in children building 00:28:23.509 --> 00:28:25.329 their self -awareness of their own needs and 00:28:25.329 --> 00:28:28.190 then their confidence and then later their ability 00:28:28.190 --> 00:28:31.650 to advocate for themselves at school. Other strategies 00:28:31.650 --> 00:28:34.490 are like accessible spaces and sensory tools 00:28:34.490 --> 00:28:37.710 for students who might need them to make it easy 00:28:37.710 --> 00:28:40.589 to manage sensory needs without that stigma, 00:28:40.730 --> 00:28:42.950 clear, predictable routines and expectations 00:28:42.950 --> 00:28:46.569 and to help. students feel safe and confident 00:28:46.569 --> 00:28:48.930 and the ability to engage in learning because 00:28:48.930 --> 00:28:51.609 obviously when neurodivergent students don't 00:28:51.609 --> 00:28:53.609 feel safe it'll be even harder for them to engage 00:28:53.609 --> 00:28:56.950 and participate at school. Something else that 00:28:56.950 --> 00:29:00.930 could be quite helpful is having those interest 00:29:00.930 --> 00:29:03.470 -based clubs and projects so creating opportunities 00:29:03.470 --> 00:29:06.190 for students to connect with other peers over 00:29:06.190 --> 00:29:08.490 their shared passions and that also can help 00:29:08.490 --> 00:29:12.869 to support socialization and sense of belonging 00:29:12.869 --> 00:29:15.690 in an authentic way for something that they really 00:29:15.690 --> 00:29:19.289 enjoy together. And then again, I think teacher 00:29:19.289 --> 00:29:22.150 and staff training on neurodiversity and strengths 00:29:22.150 --> 00:29:24.869 -based approaches would be really helpful to 00:29:24.869 --> 00:29:28.349 equip educators with those evidence -based strategies 00:29:28.349 --> 00:29:32.170 to support every student's learning and their 00:29:32.170 --> 00:29:34.950 well -being. Yeah. And they're all things that 00:29:34.950 --> 00:29:37.309 are totally achievable for schools. Everything 00:29:37.309 --> 00:29:41.509 you mentioned there. can be easily added in fact 00:29:41.509 --> 00:29:43.150 there might be already starting those things 00:29:43.150 --> 00:29:45.309 maybe just like not even consciously already 00:29:45.309 --> 00:29:47.430 like after school clubs you know how could we 00:29:47.430 --> 00:29:49.730 make those even more accessible and even more 00:29:49.730 --> 00:29:52.490 as a celebration what are the barriers to some 00:29:52.490 --> 00:29:54.349 of our neurodivergent learners joining those 00:29:54.349 --> 00:29:56.750 clubs or maybe maybe that's a great place to 00:29:56.750 --> 00:29:59.710 start for your school I totally agree sharing 00:29:59.710 --> 00:30:02.450 across the year groups those shared interests 00:30:02.450 --> 00:30:06.339 is such a beautiful way of yeah Offering those 00:30:06.339 --> 00:30:08.920 lovely social opportunities, building that community. 00:30:09.500 --> 00:30:12.619 Yeah. Yeah. Something that feels safe to them. 00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:16.839 Yeah. They can share their knowledge and their 00:30:16.839 --> 00:30:18.940 understanding of it and feel confident and say, 00:30:19.019 --> 00:30:20.819 I know something about this particular. I bet 00:30:20.819 --> 00:30:23.779 they are, but they're so incredibly wise about 00:30:23.779 --> 00:30:25.480 that subject. It's something that they are an 00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:28.359 expert in. So it gives them the opportunity to 00:30:28.359 --> 00:30:31.160 be the leader maybe in that social environment 00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:33.920 and teach their peers something, which is just 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:36.990 awesome, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, especially talking 00:30:36.990 --> 00:30:39.890 about mental health and connectedness. I think 00:30:39.890 --> 00:30:42.009 it's really great to find that balance in some 00:30:42.009 --> 00:30:44.309 way. So yeah, offering our neurodivergent students 00:30:44.309 --> 00:30:46.789 to share what they're great at is a really great 00:30:46.789 --> 00:30:50.829 start. Yeah, definitely. I love that. So all 00:30:50.829 --> 00:30:53.150 the more reason for teachers to step up and offer 00:30:53.150 --> 00:30:58.789 to do clubs. In addition to everything else that. 00:30:59.450 --> 00:31:01.410 Well, I never really mentioned clubs. I just 00:31:01.410 --> 00:31:04.069 looked down like do, do, do. But it's so good. 00:31:04.269 --> 00:31:06.950 You need to find an educator that has a shared 00:31:06.950 --> 00:31:09.750 passion in a particular area. You know, like 00:31:09.750 --> 00:31:12.109 there's a teacher who loves Lego, could do a 00:31:12.109 --> 00:31:15.210 Lego based or Pokemon. I know, you know. Right. 00:31:15.819 --> 00:31:18.980 There would be surely some adults within. It's 00:31:18.980 --> 00:31:21.460 true. We've got some incredible clubs at my school. 00:31:21.500 --> 00:31:23.359 We've got knitting. We've got art. We've got 00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:27.539 music. We've got sign language. Yeah, Lego, all 00:31:27.539 --> 00:31:30.099 sorts. It's really exciting. But it takes that 00:31:30.099 --> 00:31:32.380 commitment from the staff member to stay after 00:31:32.380 --> 00:31:35.519 school. And I guess I could never justify it 00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:40.359 before. But actually, when you display it like 00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:43.680 you have of. building connectedness social opportunities 00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:46.460 yeah neurodivergent people finally feeling like 00:31:46.460 --> 00:31:48.640 an expert in something they can take the lead 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:52.119 i'm in well it could also be at lunchtime it 00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:55.839 doesn't need to be after flexibility and you 00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:57.180 can share it with a colleague i've done that 00:31:57.180 --> 00:31:59.619 before so we do a week each that makes it feel 00:31:59.619 --> 00:32:03.160 more achievable or a half term each makes it 00:32:03.160 --> 00:32:04.980 feel more achievable there are lots of ways around 00:32:04.980 --> 00:32:07.359 but now I'm you've kind of sold me on the whole 00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:09.359 thing now whereas I've always avoided it before 00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:11.720 so maybe that's homework for me coming from this 00:32:11.720 --> 00:32:13.900 podcast I always try and give myself some kind 00:32:13.900 --> 00:32:17.119 of developmental target after each podcast and 00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:19.900 um that's definitely one for me to like yeah 00:32:20.329 --> 00:32:23.710 There was also one more strategy that's embedded 00:32:23.710 --> 00:32:25.730 throughout the whole of the In My Shoes program. 00:32:25.910 --> 00:32:29.250 So across the 10 lesson plans, this strategy 00:32:29.250 --> 00:32:32.970 is embedded across all of them. And in each of 00:32:32.970 --> 00:32:34.690 the lesson plans, it covers a different area. 00:32:34.809 --> 00:32:37.490 So for example, managing conflict at break times, 00:32:37.630 --> 00:32:39.569 you know, yourself within the classroom, those 00:32:39.569 --> 00:32:42.319 sorts of things. or managing when change happens 00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:44.900 as well. It's called Look, Think, Decide. So 00:32:44.900 --> 00:32:47.339 the idea is that it's trying to teach students 00:32:47.339 --> 00:32:50.420 that perspective taking to be able to first look 00:32:50.420 --> 00:32:52.759 at what's going on, what's happening in a situation, 00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:55.980 body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, 00:32:56.039 --> 00:32:58.619 think about what the person might be thinking, 00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:00.519 think about what the person might be feeling. 00:33:00.619 --> 00:33:02.200 And obviously our neurodivergent students might 00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:04.119 need scaffolding and support with this. And within 00:33:04.119 --> 00:33:06.559 the program, there is those resources to help 00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:09.000 with that. And then the last step is to decide 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:12.460 what can I do in this situation that might be 00:33:12.460 --> 00:33:14.920 an inclusive action to help in this scenario. 00:33:15.079 --> 00:33:17.240 So the idea is that the child is trying to put 00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:20.059 themselves in someone else's shoes. So that's 00:33:20.059 --> 00:33:22.779 the name of the program, In My Shoes. So I think 00:33:22.779 --> 00:33:25.940 if we could help and another simple strategies 00:33:25.940 --> 00:33:29.180 at school could be to help start teaching that 00:33:29.180 --> 00:33:32.400 perspective taking and to get all students to 00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.099 start shifting their perspective of, you know. 00:33:35.690 --> 00:33:38.130 How would I feel if I was in their shoes? Can 00:33:38.130 --> 00:33:40.849 I look at what's happening? Can I think about 00:33:40.849 --> 00:33:43.569 it? And can I decide what I can do to help? Even 00:33:43.569 --> 00:33:46.029 for adults, I would say that adults would deal 00:33:46.029 --> 00:33:48.549 with behaviors much better if they were thinking 00:33:48.549 --> 00:33:51.269 about exactly those three things that you've 00:33:51.269 --> 00:33:54.829 just said. Yeah, I really do. The curiosity rather 00:33:54.829 --> 00:34:02.470 than reactivity. Yeah, and assuming good. Assuming 00:34:02.470 --> 00:34:04.779 that. they're just communicating or assuming 00:34:04.779 --> 00:34:06.440 that they're just trying to get their needs met 00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:08.559 assuming that they didn't mean to do that thing 00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:10.179 you know their body they're not in control of 00:34:10.179 --> 00:34:12.380 their bodies right now or all of those kind of 00:34:12.380 --> 00:34:15.559 things yeah assuming that something's going on 00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:18.159 here what is it yeah being curious about it trying 00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:21.019 to find the why rather than just going to your 00:34:21.019 --> 00:34:26.760 first assumption yeah yeah 100 % So where can 00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:30.500 people find you now? Your Nurtured Minds OT. 00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:34.420 Yep. You've got a website. Instagram's up at 00:34:34.420 --> 00:34:37.800 the moment. So at nurturedminds underscore OT. 00:34:38.179 --> 00:34:44.159 My website is very nearly ready. It's www .nurturedmindsot 00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:48.199 .com. And that's where I'll be sharing that workshop 00:34:48.199 --> 00:34:51.260 I talked to you about earlier, resources and 00:34:51.260 --> 00:34:54.960 any updates. And if anyone is interested in. 00:34:55.179 --> 00:34:58.280 private practice support or research collaborations, 00:34:58.579 --> 00:35:02.059 I would love to hear from you. And you can connect 00:35:02.059 --> 00:35:05.300 with me via email at nurturedmindsot at gmail 00:35:05.300 --> 00:35:08.739 .com. And can that be worldwide? Yes. Yeah, worldwide. 00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:12.860 I'm registered in British Columbia and Australia 00:35:12.860 --> 00:35:15.360 as an OT, but I can provide telehealth services 00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:20.949 and support. Amazing. That's awesome. And I know 00:35:20.949 --> 00:35:22.429 by the time this comes out, your website will 00:35:22.429 --> 00:35:24.590 already be live. So do check the description 00:35:24.590 --> 00:35:27.710 below and check out, yeah, check out all of Amy's 00:35:27.710 --> 00:35:30.610 offers because I'm really excited about this 00:35:30.610 --> 00:35:34.309 project and it's certainly needed. And thank 00:35:34.309 --> 00:35:36.349 you so much for your time today sharing it with 00:35:36.349 --> 00:35:38.230 us. No, thank you so much for having me.