WEBVTT

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Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education

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teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything

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communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson

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ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged

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4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in

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the field answering your questions and sharing

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our knowledge and experience working alongside

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our beautiful young people. Let's get started.

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First of all, a message about our sponsor. Today's

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link in the description below to make the switch

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today. Now to the episode. Hello everybody and

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welcome to the Sensory Classroom podcast. My

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name is Jordan. Today I am thrilled to be joined

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by Eliza Fricker, an illustrator and a huge advocate

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and consultant for PDA, autism and learning.

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She has published several books and we're going

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to be talking about the school environment and

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the impact of that on children and families today.

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Hello Eliza. Hi, thanks for having me. You are

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so welcome. I've really been looking forward

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to this. I adore your illustrations and I adore

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your social media. I suppose, are you okay introducing

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yourself in a way of what came first? Was it

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autism advocacy? Was it illustration? Was it

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author or something else? Yeah, it was definitely

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illustrating first because that was my processing

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of. the experiences we'd had so once we were

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at home and we were no longer able to go to school

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I definitely had quite a lot I'm happy to admit

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this now I had a lot of rage at the time I was

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massively disappointed with how things had gone

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I could see some elements that could have been

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done better but I think sending emails that were

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very emotional that I was sending was quite exposing

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for me at the time I realized I was sending these

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emails and they were kind of well often not even

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getting a response or I would get a very kind

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of unemotional response back they weren't able

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to sort of offer what I was looking for so that

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was kind of quite a quick learning lesson for

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me and so the drawing was a way that I could

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process that stuff those experiences but that

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felt a lot safer I'd always been an illustrator

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anyway. So for me to sort of have to stop doing

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what I love because my child was now at home

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would have been really impactful for me anyway.

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So kind of shifting it into something that had

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a purpose was just a really helpful tool. And

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it felt quite powerful tool at the time. I sometimes

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look back on the illustrations now and they look

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quite angry. because I was you know I was angry

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they've sort of shifted now I suppose a bit over

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time as of you know healed and come come through

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that um I think it's really important to address

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all those emotions and I think parents need to

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know that there is a space to do that and we

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didn't have those spaces when I was going through

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it um it was certainly the illustration first

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and then as time went on I sort of made connections

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and people wanted to talk to me and I think people

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realised that I was kind of a safe space to do

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that as well. Yeah absolutely are you all right

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explaining a little bit about you said you were

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let down are you all right talking a little bit

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about what that entailed because I have so many

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parents listening to this podcast that are exactly

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where you were at then and they I'm sure relate

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to that and that feeling of let down anger. lack

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of any I mean yeah you said emotional feedback

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but it's almost just any care or of being treated

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like a human almost it's very robotic and yeah

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I've felt that firsthand and I'm sure parents

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can relate to that as well. Yeah I don't think

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there were sort of many actual human beings that

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were sort of causing harm I think it was more

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the sort of bigger issue of the system we did

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have one I can name, I won't name, but I could

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name one specific person who was very much centred

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on their job and was very unemotional at a time

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that was hugely emotional for us. I now realise

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that they had caused quite a lot of harm for

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other parents as well at that time. It wasn't

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just us. But overall, I didn't have that, luckily.

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I didn't have a specific person or... difficulties

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with lots of people. I would say the local authority

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element is very difficult and I would say when

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you're dealing with trying to sort out an EHCP

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and you're trying to sort out your provision

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when you're dealing with caseworkers that is

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very difficult because caseworkers are just admin

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assistants. They have no knowledge of neurodivergence.

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they're not there to hold that space at all for

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distressed parents. And that is very traumatising

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because it's an exposure of yourself at the rawest

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time and you're not going to get anything back

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that supports you. Yeah, and for parents, that

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is also that layer of advocating for a young

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person that can't necessarily advocate for themselves.

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So you're sharing your voice as your family,

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aren't you? Because it's having an impact on

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you and your family. But you're also their voice

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too. And the responsibility of that is massive.

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And I don't think it... I don't think local authority

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understand the weight of that, of advocating

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for yourself and for your child. No, and I think

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people might think it's a bit kind of woo -woo

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to talk about trauma informed. But I think when

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it comes to the local authority and that side

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of things, I think it would be so helpful for

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parents to have some of that. I think, you know,

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teachers and other professionals, ed psychs are

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much more aware of that. And often you've built

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up a relationship with them, particularly in

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primary school. So they are able to hold a little

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bit more. for you in those difficult times and

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you will meet some that will really go the extra

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mile to do that you know we had a brilliant educational

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psychologist at the time who who really did do

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that and was brave enough to to hold those difficult

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times but yeah the local authority you are literally

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talking to a cardboard cutout at the at the hardest

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times in your life i mean their caseloads are

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their caseloads are huge aren't they and they

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burn out themselves you know that's the other

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thing you know you'll see the turnover parents

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will talk about you know you're emailing one

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person then they leave and you'll get someone

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else because their caseload is ridiculous Yeah,

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I mean, why you would ever take that job on,

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I have no idea. I don't know. I know in Cornwall,

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I can't speak for you, but in Cornwall, I think

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each caseworker has about 18 ,000 children on

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their caseload. I mean, you couldn't possibly

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know their EHCPs. You couldn't possibly meet

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them or even understand or remember the details.

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It really is as black or white as this date,

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that date. And they're just meeting the bare

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minimum. I mean, not even that, honestly, because

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the times are going over and over. I've had four

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year sixes leave now without a school placement.

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And there's just been this just abyss of nothing.

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Yeah. And it's strange, isn't it, when you've

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been under that enormous pressure through that

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sort of attendance narrative and then... Yes.

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Once you drop out, there's this cruel irony that

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suddenly there's no one there rushing around

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to find you a school place. So true. And having

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to meet the EHCP, yeah, having to get their attendance,

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having to justify all of these time out, even

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though they're completely justified because there's

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hospital visits and all sorts that come along

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with these diagnoses. Yeah, it's so true. And

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maybe that is where some of the anger feels from.

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It just feels so unfair. There's no leeway when

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it's us that are... that are not meeting their

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requirements. But then when they're not meeting

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their legal requirements, there seems so much

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time and leniency and we have to be so patient.

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And it all ultimately affects the children that

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we love most in the whole wide world that can't

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advocate for themselves necessarily. And it's

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just all fueling this fire, isn't it? Yeah, I

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mean, that fire is passionate as well. And you're

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the parent and you're seeing your child be let

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down. Is there anything greater than that, I

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think? wanting stuff for your child that isn't

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happening. No. And it's also, I mean, it's so

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unfair. I've seen highly intelligent, educated

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women. I've seen lecturers that are parents of

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these autistic children without a school place

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and they are writing eloquent letters and doing

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countless research and it's all cited and honestly

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beautiful. This thing that I've seen could be

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published. It is fantastic. And yet it made no

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difference. So in my mind, when I was seeing

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this happening as the teacher, the helpless teacher,

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just so wanting to hold these families and hold

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this local authority to account and seeing it

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all happen in front of my eyes and being completely

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helpless, only to just be the face of it all,

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I suppose. And I talk about that a lot, the sort

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of the trappedness that we have as the parents

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and the trappedness that the teachers and professionals

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have by this system. We're all kind of trapped

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by it, aren't we? I suppose what's the answer?

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Complete reform, is it? Yeah, and I think giving

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back more autonomy to schools and to teachers.

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So allowing teachers to make more flexible curriculums

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based on their class and the needs of the children

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in that class and bringing teachers in for the

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skills that they have and why they wanted to

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be a teacher. You know, I've got family members

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that were teachers all their lives and I know

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they said by the end of it, it was a very different

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thing to what they had started out wanting to

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do. Both of the family members I'm thinking of

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at the minute, they're both very, very creative

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people. That creativity was something they brought

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to that class and brought a joy to those children,

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I can imagine, because they certainly brought

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a joy to my life. But they said by the end, there

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was no time for any of that. They weren't able

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to bring that. And that makes me really sad.

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Yeah, what a loss. Are those creativity? Because

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I can imagine you're incredibly creative. Is

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that some of the benefits that you noticed, even

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though you would, of course, rather a specialist

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provision and education system that suited your

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child? It obviously wasn't there, which is why

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you were at home. Some of the benefits of that,

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I'm not sure there are lots of benefits of being

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at home, that ability to be creative and fit

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that in, whereas teachers maybe not have the

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time to be able to do that. Yeah, and I think

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that engagement for particularly neurodivergent

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students is very based on interests. And we do

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see there's some schools doing that. If you look

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at things like democratic schools or self -directed

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learning, that's what the principle of it is

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based on, is looking at those children's strengths

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and working towards that. Now, I can already

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hear the grey suits with their lanyards on saying,

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well, how are they going to get a broad curriculum

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doing that? Well, actually, you can shoehorn

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a lot in by working around their interests first.

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and foremost and i know that because we had a

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tuition service who did very much that when they

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came to our house so it's doable but obviously

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you've got to be creative with it absolutely

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i was a foster carer and we had virtual school

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coming in um yeah two hours a day to support

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our child who was out of education a very similar

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story you know there wasn't a suitable place

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and that kind of thing so i've kind of i've seen

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it from teacher and parent kind of point of view

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that frustration of wanting to advocate for a

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child that had already been through so much But

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yeah, absolutely as possible. They were really

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into Marvel at the time and they managed to shoehorn

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it into writing. Matthew, you just have to be

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creative, don't you? But it felt like play to

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him. It felt fun and motivating to him. There's

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also so much trauma around these children and

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education, if they have been in... a tricky situation

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a wrong setting out for the parents actually

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so being able to almost mask and disguise learning

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through what feels really safe and good to them

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might help rebuild some of that love of learning

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I think you're absolutely right I think when

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there's trauma involved It has to feel different.

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That is so essential with it. If it feels like

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school, when I speak to families, I think we

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all are conditioned so much that we think it's

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home or school. And then we think that home,

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we replicate school in the home. There's never

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going to be engagement doing that. If there's

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trauma to that school environment, it has to

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feel completely different. And that's how we

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heal from that. Because when we have these new

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experiences that feel different, we start to

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think, OK, this is OK for me. This feels different.

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This feels... okay. Yeah I couldn't agree more

00:12:49.399 --> 00:12:52.080
and actually there's a kind of archaic understanding

00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:55.340
of what that schoolwork is even looking like

00:12:55.340 --> 00:12:58.039
like I often see lots of paperwork and lots of

00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:00.580
pencils and writing and actually that isn't what

00:13:00.580 --> 00:13:04.860
my teaching looks like for lots of my learners

00:13:04.860 --> 00:13:07.279
it doesn't look like paperwork at all in fact

00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:09.659
I think I get the prize in my school for doing

00:13:09.659 --> 00:13:13.960
the least photocopying which the SLT love. Because

00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:16.320
there just really isn't much on paper at all.

00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:18.379
And if there is, it's for my team. It's not for

00:13:18.379 --> 00:13:21.019
the kids. Just because of where they're at, it's

00:13:21.019 --> 00:13:23.840
all puppets and toys and songs and musical instruments

00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:26.960
and tangible physical items that we can mouth

00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:28.960
and chew and manipulate. And I bet they remember

00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:30.980
that. You know, they'll remember that stuff.

00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:33.899
I don't remember so much from school because

00:13:33.899 --> 00:13:36.100
it was all writing stuff down and remembering

00:13:36.100 --> 00:13:39.940
dates and, you know, numbers. Which works for

00:13:39.940 --> 00:13:42.340
some learners. I've also worked with other neurodivergent

00:13:42.340 --> 00:13:44.779
learners that work really well. They have an

00:13:44.779 --> 00:13:47.820
incredible memory, are classic academic learners,

00:13:48.039 --> 00:13:51.659
and they like bookwork, paperwork, pencils. It's

00:13:51.659 --> 00:13:54.580
just not what my class is like now. I suppose

00:13:54.580 --> 00:13:57.620
that's the point, right? It's about individualizing

00:13:57.620 --> 00:14:00.399
that learning and the benefit of specialist education

00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:03.600
and home education is that we get the luxury

00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:06.039
of doing that. Because ultimately, every child

00:14:06.039 --> 00:14:07.960
would benefit. from that I suppose I mean it's

00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:09.940
strange isn't it because it is a service for

00:14:09.940 --> 00:14:13.480
children their autonomy in this is so well small

00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:15.840
isn't it and actually what we should be thinking

00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:18.139
about is for these children so much of their

00:14:18.139 --> 00:14:20.419
learning is about what's in it for me and if

00:14:20.419 --> 00:14:23.179
we start from that place like you said if they're

00:14:23.179 --> 00:14:25.559
creative we go that route if they if they're

00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:28.340
more academic and pen to paper we go that route

00:14:28.340 --> 00:14:31.100
but we don't we just don't look at it that way

00:14:31.100 --> 00:14:33.600
no it's one size fits all and maybe because it

00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:36.960
there's now 30 children in a class and you know

00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:39.299
you have to just do it one way and then adapt

00:14:39.299 --> 00:14:41.799
from there and it yeah it does feel odd to me

00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:44.340
I would be a rubbish mainstream school teacher

00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:48.360
honestly um I went for one interview once and

00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:51.360
uh it was a reception job so I thought oh that's

00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:54.100
creative I can do that and it and even just in

00:14:54.100 --> 00:14:56.960
the interview I could just tell it just It wasn't

00:14:56.960 --> 00:14:58.700
diverse enough for me. It wasn't individualized

00:14:58.700 --> 00:15:00.940
enough for me. They were celebrating the high

00:15:00.940 --> 00:15:02.679
achievers and wanting to show me their books.

00:15:02.779 --> 00:15:04.559
And all I could focus on was the three clearly

00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:06.740
autistic learners that were fidgeting in the

00:15:06.740 --> 00:15:09.580
corner that needs weren't being met. And I knew

00:15:09.580 --> 00:15:13.019
right then that actually I'd be lost here. You

00:15:13.019 --> 00:15:16.320
know, my skills would be wasted here because

00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:18.200
actually I just care about these three children

00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:20.179
whose needs aren't being met. And that's when

00:15:20.179 --> 00:15:21.799
I knew, actually, no, I need to go back into

00:15:21.799 --> 00:15:24.639
special education. Junior energy levels doing

00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:28.990
it in a way that didn't, into by you yeah totally

00:15:28.990 --> 00:15:32.289
I mean we're all we are like that aren't we um

00:15:32.289 --> 00:15:35.870
even as adults we need to have we work best when

00:15:35.870 --> 00:15:38.549
we are inspired and motivated and when we're

00:15:38.549 --> 00:15:40.929
passionate about something I can imagine I mean

00:15:40.929 --> 00:15:42.429
bringing it back to your illustrations and your

00:15:42.429 --> 00:15:47.009
books they're of such high quality and so profound

00:15:47.009 --> 00:15:49.909
for other people because they're profound for

00:15:49.909 --> 00:15:53.370
you yeah you need that emotion behind it and

00:15:53.370 --> 00:15:56.500
I think that's so true that You can really see

00:15:56.500 --> 00:15:58.379
the difference between when you're really into

00:15:58.379 --> 00:16:00.720
doing something and when you're not. I used to

00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:02.639
get like that used to happen to me even when

00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:05.879
I went to art college. You know, they could clearly

00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:08.559
tell when I wasn't into it. It wasn't because,

00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:11.320
you know, I wasn't able to do this stuff. I can

00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.059
draw and but they could just tell. And I used

00:16:14.059 --> 00:16:16.340
to get really frustrated because I think I think

00:16:16.340 --> 00:16:18.840
I've really, you know, I've really won them over

00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:22.350
with this. you know pulled the wool over their

00:16:22.350 --> 00:16:23.610
eyes because I was trying to get out of stuff

00:16:23.610 --> 00:16:25.669
I didn't want to do but they could tell you can

00:16:25.669 --> 00:16:29.029
tell when people aren't into that yeah yeah totally

00:16:29.029 --> 00:16:33.649
and I feel like the neurodivergence in us as

00:16:33.649 --> 00:16:36.669
well it's even more obvious like for me I can

00:16:36.669 --> 00:16:41.250
really it feels magnified for me in comparison

00:16:41.250 --> 00:16:44.610
to my husband maybe that I really do need to

00:16:44.610 --> 00:16:46.990
be passionate about something and then it's it's

00:16:46.990 --> 00:16:50.700
hyper focused I'm I'm to the point of i'm obsessed

00:16:50.700 --> 00:16:53.620
with it i can't let it go i have to do it but

00:16:53.620 --> 00:16:55.539
also on the other side if i'm not interested

00:16:55.539 --> 00:16:59.659
i just can't make myself do it no and i think

00:16:59.659 --> 00:17:02.879
also the other element to that is the interactions

00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:07.059
with the people that we're involved with within

00:17:07.059 --> 00:17:09.559
that doing that project so i'm thinking about

00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:13.240
um i've had some recent things with a work thing

00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:16.660
and it's just not gelling for me and i can't

00:17:16.660 --> 00:17:19.890
get i can't pull it out the bag because The communication

00:17:19.890 --> 00:17:23.470
is different with the two people involved in

00:17:23.470 --> 00:17:25.710
this. All of it, I'm just like, I can't pull

00:17:25.710 --> 00:17:28.089
it out of the bag. Whereas the other people that

00:17:28.089 --> 00:17:30.910
I work with, you know, I've got a fantastic editor

00:17:30.910 --> 00:17:35.269
and people I co -author with. It just flows,

00:17:35.549 --> 00:17:37.890
you know, there's no problem to it whatsoever.

00:17:38.049 --> 00:17:40.910
And I can see that now so clearly. So for our

00:17:40.910 --> 00:17:44.500
children, imagine being around. you know adults

00:17:44.500 --> 00:17:47.059
teachers that they don't have that relationship

00:17:47.059 --> 00:17:50.339
with how difficult that must be for them yeah

00:17:50.339 --> 00:17:52.700
I suppose that's the answer isn't it for teachers

00:17:52.700 --> 00:17:54.720
listening to this like how can I replicate this

00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:56.299
I'm a mainstream teacher I've got first year

00:17:56.299 --> 00:17:58.339
and how can I replicate this I get it I can hear

00:17:58.339 --> 00:18:00.000
what you're saying how can I replicate it it

00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:01.980
is about connection isn't it and that relationship

00:18:01.980 --> 00:18:04.539
building I had a chat with somebody on the podcast

00:18:04.539 --> 00:18:07.660
recently and said just take five you know ask

00:18:07.660 --> 00:18:10.000
five questions do you know five things about

00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:11.619
the child that is nothing to do with their learning

00:18:11.619 --> 00:18:13.279
their levels or anything you know can you name

00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:14.740
their pet do you know what football team they

00:18:14.740 --> 00:18:17.019
support you know their favorite food you make

00:18:17.019 --> 00:18:19.839
sure you do because if you don't you're not going

00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:21.759
to know enough in how they learn and how they

00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:24.900
work and just their relationship honestly to

00:18:24.900 --> 00:18:26.599
actually be able to teach them effectively and

00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:29.750
i thought that was really great advice I think

00:18:29.750 --> 00:18:32.390
so. And I think it's got to come from a really

00:18:32.390 --> 00:18:34.769
authentic place. I know that word gets banded

00:18:34.769 --> 00:18:37.390
around authenticity, but it's something we feel,

00:18:37.410 --> 00:18:39.849
isn't it? It's a genuine thing we feel. Is this

00:18:39.849 --> 00:18:42.910
person just box ticking here or do they really,

00:18:42.970 --> 00:18:46.509
are they genuinely interested in me? Yeah. And

00:18:46.509 --> 00:18:49.470
everybody can feel that, can't they? And my non

00:18:49.470 --> 00:18:52.789
-speaking high support needs learners can absolutely

00:18:52.789 --> 00:18:56.490
feel that. You can see that we all doing intensive

00:18:56.490 --> 00:19:00.809
interaction and yet. The adults that are really

00:19:00.809 --> 00:19:03.549
trying hard to find what it is that they're finding

00:19:03.549 --> 00:19:05.910
so interested about this stimming toy compared

00:19:05.910 --> 00:19:08.430
to the ones that are just mimicking, they get

00:19:08.430 --> 00:19:11.490
such a different response. That's really interesting.

00:19:11.950 --> 00:19:15.089
Totally. It looks the same. You know, everybody's,

00:19:15.089 --> 00:19:18.250
you know, mimicking. But you can really feel

00:19:18.250 --> 00:19:22.650
it. It's tangible almost. when an adult is really

00:19:22.650 --> 00:19:26.529
trying to enjoy what the child is enjoying. And

00:19:26.529 --> 00:19:28.730
I can't put my finger on it, but my goodness,

00:19:28.890 --> 00:19:32.210
the child knows totally. However high support

00:19:32.210 --> 00:19:35.589
needs they are, you get such a different reaction.

00:19:36.220 --> 00:19:39.319
It really is about investment of energy, I think,

00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:41.680
in what they're interested in. Yeah. And what

00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:43.940
would you say about the difference in communication

00:19:43.940 --> 00:19:47.240
styles as well? You know, sometimes I think we

00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:50.000
do just have different ways of communicating

00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:52.480
and they don't work together. I mean, that's

00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:55.079
human nature, right? Isn't it? Yeah, absolutely.

00:19:55.299 --> 00:19:57.880
And yeah, different ways of even how you're positioned.

00:19:58.019 --> 00:20:00.579
You know, there's so much nuance in it, isn't

00:20:00.579 --> 00:20:03.099
there? Are you too close? Are you kind of...

00:20:03.450 --> 00:20:05.650
looking too much are you not looking enough are

00:20:05.650 --> 00:20:08.349
you touching not touching yeah everybody's different

00:20:08.349 --> 00:20:10.950
and it is about knowing that individual which

00:20:10.950 --> 00:20:13.609
again is such a luxury in special education I

00:20:13.609 --> 00:20:17.430
really really do know my learners like so well

00:20:17.430 --> 00:20:19.710
I have them for seven years for a start which

00:20:19.710 --> 00:20:22.910
is just incredible we're really part of the family

00:20:22.910 --> 00:20:26.369
by the time they they leave us and I wouldn't

00:20:26.369 --> 00:20:28.549
want it any other way I can't imagine not having

00:20:28.549 --> 00:20:31.160
it I can't imagine having it any other way. But

00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:33.420
you've got that time, haven't you? Look at how

00:20:33.420 --> 00:20:35.660
much time you get to invest in it. That's an

00:20:35.660 --> 00:20:37.480
amazing thing. Yeah, and less children as well.

00:20:37.539 --> 00:20:41.200
So it's more concentrated, isn't it? And I'm

00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:43.839
just not the right person to, I suppose, tell

00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:46.180
mainstream teachers how it is possible because

00:20:46.180 --> 00:20:49.200
I haven't experienced that. I know it is possible

00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:51.519
because I know some teachers do it really well.

00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:55.579
But as for strategies, I don't know because it

00:20:55.579 --> 00:20:57.700
just feels like a lot, doesn't it, when they're

00:20:57.700 --> 00:21:01.440
already... I think that relationship underpinning

00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:04.480
it, though, because when Naomi and myself and

00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:06.799
her sister wrote What Can We Do When School's

00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:09.539
Not Working, there were schools within that mainstream

00:21:09.539 --> 00:21:12.119
system that were really going out on a limb to

00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:14.440
do things differently. And a lot of the underpinning

00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:16.740
of that was relationships. And like we were just

00:21:16.740 --> 00:21:19.740
saying, it's making those students feel like

00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:24.460
they've got a sense of worth, really. they mean

00:21:24.460 --> 00:21:27.019
something and I think we all need that as humans

00:21:27.019 --> 00:21:30.319
we all need to feel that we mean something to

00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:33.900
people even if we it looks different you know

00:21:33.900 --> 00:21:38.220
maybe it's maybe when mainstream school is focusing

00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:41.059
too much on those results well the ones that

00:21:41.059 --> 00:21:43.019
maybe aren't going to get those results still

00:21:43.019 --> 00:21:45.480
putting the sense of worth and putting a bit

00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:48.420
into that relationship anyway but in a different

00:21:48.420 --> 00:21:51.799
way not looking at it because the grade aspect

00:21:52.460 --> 00:21:54.039
It's so true. I saw one of your illustrations,

00:21:54.180 --> 00:21:56.059
actually. I think you posted it recently about

00:21:56.059 --> 00:22:00.359
the measure and what we're measuring. And I loved

00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:02.660
that because it's so true. Mainstream are so

00:22:02.660 --> 00:22:05.960
on measuring attendance or measuring levels.

00:22:06.460 --> 00:22:09.240
But actually, maybe that's not the real data

00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:11.319
here. Maybe we need to measure relationships,

00:22:11.460 --> 00:22:14.420
I know you said, or measure creativity, measure

00:22:14.420 --> 00:22:17.430
trying. There's, I hate the attendance thing

00:22:17.430 --> 00:22:19.730
anyway, but I loved your illustration of that

00:22:19.730 --> 00:22:23.950
because it's so true that we just need to change

00:22:23.950 --> 00:22:27.670
what we're focusing on. So often it isn't even

00:22:27.670 --> 00:22:29.970
up to the children about attendance for a start,

00:22:30.089 --> 00:22:33.809
or it's about their medical needs, or it's about

00:22:33.809 --> 00:22:36.670
parent setup, you know, it's nothing to do with

00:22:36.670 --> 00:22:39.569
the child. So they shouldn't be publicly shamed

00:22:39.569 --> 00:22:42.779
on the edge. not on the 100 % attendance register

00:22:42.779 --> 00:22:45.519
or these awful traffic light systems that we

00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:48.259
get in classes, which still exist. Teachers always

00:22:48.259 --> 00:22:49.740
DM me when I mention them and say, they don't

00:22:49.740 --> 00:22:51.960
exist anymore. They do. I've seen them. People

00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:55.509
have traffic light, awful public shaming. displays

00:22:55.509 --> 00:22:58.829
of who's on green and who's on red and who's

00:22:58.829 --> 00:23:00.569
on this and I just think we're measuring the

00:23:00.569 --> 00:23:02.769
wrong thing what if we were to measure kindness

00:23:02.769 --> 00:23:07.809
or trying or really knowing their body my learners

00:23:07.809 --> 00:23:11.089
really know their body they really do advocate

00:23:11.089 --> 00:23:14.109
for themselves they are incredible at that they

00:23:14.109 --> 00:23:16.250
know exactly what their bodies need why aren't

00:23:16.250 --> 00:23:18.180
we measuring that I think that's a wonderful

00:23:18.180 --> 00:23:20.940
I mean I have to draw that I'm gonna have to

00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:23.740
draw measuring trying I think that is such an

00:23:23.740 --> 00:23:25.720
amazing like I actually feel really emotional

00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:29.099
hearing that because We just don't really think

00:23:29.099 --> 00:23:32.440
about what children are struggling with underneath

00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:35.759
and how hard they might be trying. And I think

00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:38.720
that's such an important thing. I've just finished

00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:41.480
my follow on to Thumbsucker about my childhood,

00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:43.500
which is my secondary school years. And it's

00:23:43.500 --> 00:23:46.859
called Could Try Harder. And it's all about that

00:23:46.859 --> 00:23:49.140
because I was a top set student, but they didn't

00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:52.420
see how hard that was for me. And so. You know,

00:23:52.460 --> 00:23:54.400
there was this constant push, push, push, push.

00:23:54.700 --> 00:23:58.140
And I was never quite enough. And that's really

00:23:58.140 --> 00:24:01.359
impactful, you know, because they're not seeing

00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:04.299
what's going on underneath for those young people.

00:24:04.539 --> 00:24:07.140
There is an assumption that they can just get

00:24:07.140 --> 00:24:10.099
more out of you. And I think, you know, if we

00:24:10.099 --> 00:24:12.680
actually just, you know, celebrated people for

00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:15.900
where they're at a lot more than we do. Yeah,

00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:18.799
and it's classic female neurodivergence, isn't

00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:21.859
it? That fawn response, that people -pleasing

00:24:21.859 --> 00:24:24.559
response. And for teachers, they look like, yeah,

00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:27.299
model student, always doing well. But the problem

00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:30.339
is you are asking so much of them. And the bar

00:24:30.339 --> 00:24:33.519
keeps raising, I find, that, you know, okay,

00:24:33.539 --> 00:24:36.799
they've got 99 % attendance, we want 100. Or

00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:38.680
they've got this score, we need more. We need

00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:41.440
more quiet, more responsible, more still, more

00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:44.470
focused, you know. And there's so much pressure.

00:24:44.529 --> 00:24:46.630
And I say females, I hate to say that, but it

00:24:46.630 --> 00:24:50.670
is so common with females. And the problem is,

00:24:50.690 --> 00:24:53.349
is that they are burning out. They're burning

00:24:53.349 --> 00:24:54.750
out at home. They're burning out afterwards.

00:24:55.480 --> 00:24:58.720
It ends up as school refusal. It looks like eating

00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:01.660
disorders, any way of trying to manage their

00:25:01.660 --> 00:25:03.640
body and have a sense of control because they

00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:07.400
cannot hold it together anymore. Yeah, it leads

00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:09.539
to school refusal. Well, and I think that's a

00:25:09.539 --> 00:25:11.579
really important point because a psychologist

00:25:11.579 --> 00:25:13.579
has written the afterword to this book and it

00:25:13.579 --> 00:25:16.140
was really hard to read as she sort of unpicked

00:25:16.140 --> 00:25:19.140
this story of my adolescence going through this.

00:25:19.259 --> 00:25:21.180
And I think what you're saying is really important

00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:23.819
is... Because what we're not looking at when

00:25:23.819 --> 00:25:26.059
we think about school is that school is a short

00:25:26.059 --> 00:25:28.740
term investment. And for parents, we're looking

00:25:28.740 --> 00:25:32.200
at a long term investment in our child. And we

00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:34.619
need to see that how impactful that can potentially

00:25:34.619 --> 00:25:37.420
be long term. This is why we have women doing

00:25:37.420 --> 00:25:41.359
too much, women doing parenting. and working

00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:44.859
and doing the housework. And it's still happening.

00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:47.700
And it's particularly ramped up for neurodivergent

00:25:47.700 --> 00:25:50.119
women because we have become, like you said,

00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:52.900
the people pleasers and perfectionists ultimately.

00:25:53.220 --> 00:25:56.380
We must be what that sort of message sends of

00:25:56.380 --> 00:25:59.299
not good enough and you can try harder is that

00:25:59.299 --> 00:26:01.920
ultimately we become these people that try and

00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:05.490
be everything and that's not sustainable. Oh,

00:26:05.490 --> 00:26:07.549
and it's setting up our young people to be incredibly

00:26:07.549 --> 00:26:10.630
vulnerable in situations, either a work situation.

00:26:11.309 --> 00:26:13.630
I've certainly felt that relationship situation.

00:26:13.710 --> 00:26:15.809
You know, if you're constantly people pleasing

00:26:15.809 --> 00:26:19.329
and ignoring your own gut feeling about a situation

00:26:19.329 --> 00:26:22.109
in order to please others, to be that perfect

00:26:22.109 --> 00:26:25.170
response, that can only put you in a really vulnerable

00:26:25.170 --> 00:26:26.990
position. And we certainly don't want that for

00:26:26.990 --> 00:26:28.529
our young people. I don't think any schools,

00:26:28.710 --> 00:26:30.569
local authority or parents would want that for

00:26:30.569 --> 00:26:32.190
their young people. But that's kind of what we're

00:26:32.190 --> 00:26:34.329
asking them. We're asking them to ignore your

00:26:34.329 --> 00:26:36.980
body. ignore what feels good for you ignore that

00:26:36.980 --> 00:26:39.440
you need um I mean it starts out with ignore

00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:40.799
that you need a movement break ignore that you

00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:42.299
need the toilet right now because you've just

00:26:42.299 --> 00:26:44.039
been and all those things that's what we're asking

00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:45.940
them to which on the surface seems like oh yeah

00:26:45.940 --> 00:26:47.579
of course that's a big thing but then what that

00:26:47.579 --> 00:26:51.519
turns into as adults is ignore that whistleblowing

00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:53.200
thing that you probably should have counted ignore

00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:55.359
that safeguarding issue ignore when your boyfriend

00:26:55.359 --> 00:26:57.099
actually isn't talking to you very well or treating

00:26:57.099 --> 00:26:59.359
you very well you know because actually they're

00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:01.079
the authority figure and actually your job is

00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:04.680
to just ignore your gut feelings and think that's

00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:06.980
incredibly dangerous and I can see it happening

00:27:06.980 --> 00:27:10.339
in my the team I work with my teaching assistants

00:27:10.339 --> 00:27:12.700
I can see that in all the way filtering down

00:27:12.700 --> 00:27:14.279
all through the mainstream school that I'm attached

00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:17.220
to I can just see that language of and it starts

00:27:17.220 --> 00:27:19.660
with attendance it starts with sitting still

00:27:19.660 --> 00:27:22.900
and focusing but it really is incredibly dangerous

00:27:23.690 --> 00:27:26.430
Well, it creates a complete disconnect from your

00:27:26.430 --> 00:27:29.950
own self and needs, even in times of deep distress.

00:27:30.049 --> 00:27:33.230
So, of course, that leads on to very harmful

00:27:33.230 --> 00:27:36.730
things as an adult. Yeah, this is why these things

00:27:36.730 --> 00:27:39.309
need to be lifelong. This is lifelong learning,

00:27:39.369 --> 00:27:41.470
what we're kind of advocating for, isn't it?

00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:44.259
Yeah, absolutely. And I suppose if you've got

00:27:44.259 --> 00:27:47.160
trauma at school, then you've almost learned

00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:49.339
that learning isn't for you, it doesn't feel

00:27:49.339 --> 00:27:52.140
good for you. And then you won't look for more.

00:27:52.420 --> 00:27:55.180
Whereas how maybe I'm doing in my class, and

00:27:55.180 --> 00:27:57.480
you're doing in your home, that kind of special

00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:01.859
interest subjects, child led learning, it breeds

00:28:01.859 --> 00:28:04.460
that sense of love of learning, lifelong learning.

00:28:04.619 --> 00:28:07.819
It means that they'll then be adults that will

00:28:07.819 --> 00:28:10.720
research things, look things up, be open minded,

00:28:10.859 --> 00:28:15.869
be open to change, open to grow. Yeah, that's

00:28:15.869 --> 00:28:17.970
the kind of world I want to live in. Yeah, and

00:28:17.970 --> 00:28:20.509
I think I've had, I haven't had a huge pushback

00:28:20.509 --> 00:28:22.569
about it, but I definitely have had some parents

00:28:22.569 --> 00:28:26.269
sort of ask me about my child returning to school

00:28:26.269 --> 00:28:29.910
and, you know, why did I do that? What's that?

00:28:30.349 --> 00:28:33.369
That's the ultimate aim. Yeah. And they sort

00:28:33.369 --> 00:28:36.130
of thought, oh, why, you know, why have you done

00:28:36.130 --> 00:28:38.450
that? You know, why have you put them back into

00:28:38.450 --> 00:28:41.269
something? But I made sure it was a very different

00:28:41.269 --> 00:28:44.009
environment. And the point as well of that is

00:28:44.009 --> 00:28:47.009
that I wanted them to have that experience to

00:28:47.009 --> 00:28:49.990
be a positive one ultimately, and to know that

00:28:49.990 --> 00:28:53.430
there are other ways of learning and it can feel

00:28:53.430 --> 00:28:56.390
quite different. That was really important, actually.

00:28:56.609 --> 00:29:00.240
I think after... you know a few years of being

00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:02.900
at home when they were well again but I could

00:29:02.900 --> 00:29:05.779
see we needed something else and I could see

00:29:05.779 --> 00:29:09.279
that that experience of being away from me was

00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:12.400
also really important at this next stage there's

00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:15.099
so much more that's taught at school that is

00:29:15.099 --> 00:29:16.960
way beyond academics I think that's actually

00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:20.599
more important I think um a intellectual home

00:29:20.599 --> 00:29:23.160
you know you could do all that stuff that's that's

00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:25.380
almost not the thing that she's learning at school

00:29:25.380 --> 00:29:28.200
but it's those socials skills isn't it it's those

00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:30.619
rules it's being part of a community that isn't

00:29:30.619 --> 00:29:33.599
part of your home community there's so much more

00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:36.119
that's taught at school that that are the benefits

00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:39.900
of that I'm sure how what's different now compared

00:29:39.900 --> 00:29:44.519
to before in the new setting and what kind of

00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:46.980
things were you looking for I suppose to ensure

00:29:46.980 --> 00:29:50.519
her safety in that I didn't actually know what

00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:53.619
I was looking for at the time. I got some advice

00:29:53.619 --> 00:29:56.380
a very, very long time ago by someone from the

00:29:56.380 --> 00:29:58.599
PDA Society. I don't know if they still have

00:29:58.599 --> 00:30:00.880
this, but they did have a kind of phone line

00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:04.319
that you could call. And I spoke to someone there

00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:07.339
and she said, look at everything out there. Just

00:30:07.339 --> 00:30:11.589
look at everything. And it was a really good

00:30:11.589 --> 00:30:13.690
bit of advice that I've carried on and I share

00:30:13.690 --> 00:30:16.130
with families now because looking at everything

00:30:16.130 --> 00:30:18.589
means that you can start to formulate a picture

00:30:18.589 --> 00:30:21.069
because often you don't know what you're actually

00:30:21.069 --> 00:30:23.710
looking for for your child. You could even be

00:30:23.710 --> 00:30:26.990
kind of sending long emails to your caseworker

00:30:26.990 --> 00:30:29.009
about, you know, wanting provision, but you've

00:30:29.009 --> 00:30:31.250
got no idea what you want. And I was certainly

00:30:31.250 --> 00:30:34.460
in that position. going around and looking at

00:30:34.460 --> 00:30:36.299
what was out there was really important because

00:30:36.299 --> 00:30:38.339
then I could see the bits that I did like and

00:30:38.339 --> 00:30:41.019
I didn't like and I'd also now had a child at

00:30:41.019 --> 00:30:43.880
home who I could really see was unmasking and

00:30:43.880 --> 00:30:45.640
I could start to build a picture of actually

00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:47.559
where they were at and what their needs were

00:30:47.559 --> 00:30:50.279
because I talk a lot about this kind of residual

00:30:50.279 --> 00:30:54.000
masking I think goes on with our children that

00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:56.559
even when you have them at home it takes a long

00:30:56.559 --> 00:30:59.410
time for that mask to come off because it's been

00:30:59.410 --> 00:31:02.230
going on for so long within school so it was

00:31:02.230 --> 00:31:04.630
a combination of seeing that sort of mask come

00:31:04.630 --> 00:31:07.549
off seeing her needs plus looking at other things

00:31:07.549 --> 00:31:11.450
out there um and it was such a broad range because

00:31:11.450 --> 00:31:14.150
you know you've got mainstream and specialists

00:31:14.150 --> 00:31:17.829
but there's so much going on within both of those

00:31:17.829 --> 00:31:23.579
every different isn't it absolutely and so It

00:31:23.579 --> 00:31:26.400
was actually, for all our kind of grumps about

00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:28.559
the local authority, we'd been at home for quite

00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:32.579
a long time. And I couldn't see, I'd seen some

00:31:32.579 --> 00:31:35.579
things, but nothing quite right. And I was thinking,

00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:38.799
well, we're going to have to do a EOTAS. But

00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:40.599
we were at a stage where we were both kind of

00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:42.880
plateauing. This comes up quite a lot with families

00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:44.460
where you've been at home for a long time and

00:31:44.460 --> 00:31:47.480
the energy's running out on this situation. And

00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:50.640
it was, I was going for EOTAS. Didn't really

00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:53.460
feel like we have many other options. And then

00:31:53.460 --> 00:31:58.240
it was the caseworker that said, have you thought

00:31:58.240 --> 00:31:59.960
about this setting? And I thought it's going

00:31:59.960 --> 00:32:02.240
to be rubbish. Because I thought if the local

00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:04.980
authority are offering it, it's probably rubbish.

00:32:05.140 --> 00:32:07.299
And it's going to be rubbish. Because I'd seen

00:32:07.299 --> 00:32:09.579
a few of their other options before and they

00:32:09.579 --> 00:32:13.480
were rubbish. I went full of cynicism to this

00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:16.900
setting and it wasn't even near us. It was sort

00:32:16.900 --> 00:32:20.319
of like a good 40 minutes in a taxi. And I went

00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:22.460
in really kind of prepped for this, you know,

00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:26.519
with all my child's needs and shown around by

00:32:26.519 --> 00:32:29.539
the headteacher. And as we were walking around.

00:32:30.380 --> 00:32:32.819
I started to sort of soften and think this feels

00:32:32.819 --> 00:32:34.920
really nice and this feels really different.

00:32:35.019 --> 00:32:37.140
And just the way she was interacting with the

00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:40.019
children and what she was saying. And she, at

00:32:40.019 --> 00:32:42.539
the end, she said, look, we're going to make

00:32:42.539 --> 00:32:45.160
mistakes, but we say sorry and we'll figure it

00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:48.140
out. We'll work this out. This is about parents

00:32:48.140 --> 00:32:51.099
being as ready for this as the child. We can't

00:32:51.099 --> 00:32:53.539
take your child if you're not ready for this

00:32:53.539 --> 00:32:57.160
because it's not going to work. And by the end

00:32:57.160 --> 00:32:59.799
of that, I broke down and I was completely in

00:32:59.799 --> 00:33:01.839
bits. And she said, I don't think I've seen someone

00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:05.279
this emotional about this before. And I said,

00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:08.400
it's because I feel like I can let go. I've been

00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:11.259
doing this for so long. Holding all the responsibility.

00:33:11.859 --> 00:33:14.660
Yeah. I was like, I need a break. And I actually

00:33:14.660 --> 00:33:17.200
believe they could do it. And we are however

00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:19.039
many years down the line and they're still doing

00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:21.299
it. I'm not saying it's perfect. And this is

00:33:21.299 --> 00:33:23.920
part of the healing process. She was absolutely

00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:26.619
right. We have to be healed ourselves. We have

00:33:26.619 --> 00:33:29.180
to be ready for this. We have to allow there

00:33:29.180 --> 00:33:31.059
are going to be bumps. I mean, we've had some

00:33:31.059 --> 00:33:33.119
real bumps along the way with this setting. You've

00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:35.519
got lots of trauma and triggers built up over

00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:38.660
your daughter's education system and your own

00:33:38.660 --> 00:33:42.140
too, haven't you? It's all a big amalgamation

00:33:42.140 --> 00:33:47.849
of stuff. To work out. Yeah. But part of the

00:33:47.849 --> 00:33:52.349
next step for us was taking that risk and allowing

00:33:52.349 --> 00:33:56.349
her to start accessing the outside world. This

00:33:56.349 --> 00:33:58.849
wasn't a rush. We'd had lots of time at home,

00:33:58.890 --> 00:34:02.309
but the world was out there and I'm just there

00:34:02.309 --> 00:34:05.029
to kind of shimmy along next to her and give

00:34:05.029 --> 00:34:07.549
her those opportunities. But that was part of

00:34:07.549 --> 00:34:09.969
it. Being a parent is to offer those opportunities

00:34:09.969 --> 00:34:12.869
as well, but obviously only when it feels right.

00:34:13.469 --> 00:34:15.789
Yeah, of course. I definitely felt that when

00:34:15.789 --> 00:34:18.670
I was at home with my child in foster care. It

00:34:18.670 --> 00:34:20.809
was it was wonderful because I got to spend so

00:34:20.809 --> 00:34:22.769
much time with him and we knew each other incredibly

00:34:22.769 --> 00:34:26.510
well. But it was a lot. It was a lot of me looking

00:34:26.510 --> 00:34:30.650
back to be the parent and the teacher and the

00:34:30.650 --> 00:34:33.889
advocate and at times the social worker because

00:34:33.889 --> 00:34:36.809
they were doing their job. all of those things

00:34:36.809 --> 00:34:39.750
it's a lot to ask of one person and it definitely

00:34:39.750 --> 00:34:42.650
impacted my relationship to just be the parent

00:34:42.650 --> 00:34:46.750
which was ultimately my actual job to be absolutely

00:34:46.750 --> 00:34:50.110
and I see that when I speak to families and they

00:34:50.110 --> 00:34:52.369
will like I said earlier there'll be this sort

00:34:52.369 --> 00:34:54.610
of plateauing so you'll see it where they kind

00:34:54.610 --> 00:34:57.309
of everyone just kind of has reached a point

00:34:57.309 --> 00:35:01.230
they're kind of a bit over it you know um it's

00:35:01.230 --> 00:35:04.210
very hard to keep that energy up I mean Laura

00:35:04.210 --> 00:35:07.099
Kirby who I write quite a few books about um

00:35:07.099 --> 00:35:10.000
PDA with she runs a tutor company and she said

00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:11.659
you know it's the same with her tutors she has

00:35:11.659 --> 00:35:14.360
to change it up because energy level to sustain

00:35:14.360 --> 00:35:17.300
that is incredibly difficult doing it all yourself

00:35:17.300 --> 00:35:20.260
at home and I think also when you've got a child

00:35:20.260 --> 00:35:24.500
who's 10 it's very different when you have an

00:35:24.500 --> 00:35:27.000
adolescent naturally for adolescents they want

00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:29.340
to start to move away from us and they want to

00:35:29.340 --> 00:35:32.000
have different opportunities and it starts to

00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:36.130
shift yeah and so You want them to feel comfortable

00:35:36.130 --> 00:35:38.489
in their own world and in their own selves to

00:35:38.489 --> 00:35:41.769
be able to have that independence. And I suppose

00:35:41.769 --> 00:35:44.849
for you, that was, you know, finding at that

00:35:44.849 --> 00:35:47.309
right school. And for others, it might be joining

00:35:47.309 --> 00:35:49.789
a group or something. But I mean, for any parent,

00:35:49.789 --> 00:35:51.929
you want as much independence. I mean, let's

00:35:51.929 --> 00:35:53.690
be careful here, how we say this, but as much

00:35:53.690 --> 00:35:56.769
independence or as much fulfilled life as they

00:35:56.769 --> 00:35:59.889
can have within the realms of their disability

00:35:59.889 --> 00:36:04.869
and diagnose it. Yeah. And, you know, even I

00:36:04.869 --> 00:36:07.190
mean, I still get asked it now, the really generic

00:36:07.190 --> 00:36:10.349
questions. Well, are they doing GCSEs or are

00:36:10.349 --> 00:36:13.190
they doing A -levels or, you know, and I'm so

00:36:13.190 --> 00:36:16.409
far from that that I don't even think about it.

00:36:16.489 --> 00:36:19.250
In fact, someone asked me not longer. So do they

00:36:19.250 --> 00:36:21.550
do like A -level stuff? And I was like, I don't

00:36:21.550 --> 00:36:24.409
actually know. I mean, that sounds. It doesn't

00:36:24.409 --> 00:36:26.809
matter. It doesn't matter because they're so

00:36:26.809 --> 00:36:30.789
interested and safe and happy when they're there.

00:36:31.449 --> 00:36:34.369
Yeah. And I can tell you that any school, if

00:36:34.369 --> 00:36:38.110
she wants to and is ready, she will be able to

00:36:38.110 --> 00:36:40.929
do it. If she's not ready or can't for whatever

00:36:40.929 --> 00:36:43.289
reason, she won't. And I can tell you that now.

00:36:43.349 --> 00:36:45.309
I don't even know the school, but there is absolutely

00:36:45.309 --> 00:36:48.130
no school on this planet that if a child is wanting

00:36:48.130 --> 00:36:50.050
to and ready, that wouldn't put them through

00:36:50.050 --> 00:36:53.570
something. Like if they wanted to. Yeah. So I

00:36:53.570 --> 00:36:55.809
can tell you now. It's how wonderful that the

00:36:55.809 --> 00:36:58.949
school is not pressuring either. No, and I think

00:36:58.949 --> 00:37:01.230
what's really lovely is when you find something

00:37:01.230 --> 00:37:03.530
that kind of mirrors how you're doing it. So,

00:37:03.610 --> 00:37:06.070
you know, they're very side by side with this

00:37:06.070 --> 00:37:09.230
learning journey rather than, you know, telling

00:37:09.230 --> 00:37:12.190
what to do. And that's a wonderful thing because

00:37:12.190 --> 00:37:14.789
that's kind of how I'm doing this parenting journey

00:37:14.789 --> 00:37:18.090
as well. So it's the offering, it's side by side

00:37:18.090 --> 00:37:21.170
and it's curiosity, but it's certainly not, you

00:37:21.170 --> 00:37:24.480
know, with any expectation to do something. And

00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:26.659
having that communication, open communication

00:37:26.659 --> 00:37:28.860
between parent and school, I can imagine is incredibly

00:37:28.860 --> 00:37:31.900
important for your healing journey as well. Making

00:37:31.900 --> 00:37:35.460
sure that you are invested and you know what's

00:37:35.460 --> 00:37:37.820
happening, why it's happening, and that they

00:37:37.820 --> 00:37:39.739
can even say that they're doing something similar

00:37:39.739 --> 00:37:41.920
to you and that you know that must be really

00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:45.269
helpful. And just getting positive emails back,

00:37:45.369 --> 00:37:47.570
you know, and this isn't toxic positivity where,

00:37:47.650 --> 00:37:49.869
you know, you're really in the dumps with everything

00:37:49.869 --> 00:37:52.110
and send those emails and you'd be like, well,

00:37:52.190 --> 00:37:54.269
we've had the worst week. I mean, this is genuine

00:37:54.269 --> 00:37:57.150
stuff. And I often share, there's a presentation

00:37:57.150 --> 00:37:59.929
I do and I often share the first school report

00:37:59.929 --> 00:38:03.650
that we got. And, you know, a lot of it, you

00:38:03.650 --> 00:38:05.969
know, a lot of it's emotional to read it because

00:38:05.969 --> 00:38:10.409
it's. it's all strength -based and when you know

00:38:10.409 --> 00:38:12.590
that about your child but no one else gets to

00:38:12.590 --> 00:38:14.829
see it because the environment is so impactful

00:38:14.829 --> 00:38:18.050
it's such a wonderful thing when it's actually

00:38:18.050 --> 00:38:21.650
seen by other people somewhere else I suppose

00:38:21.650 --> 00:38:23.389
that's the biggest that's the biggest thing I

00:38:23.389 --> 00:38:25.449
think when other people see your child like that

00:38:25.449 --> 00:38:28.489
totally because since birth you've maybe been

00:38:28.489 --> 00:38:30.130
the only one that's fully understood them and

00:38:30.130 --> 00:38:32.409
seen them for who they are and There's weight

00:38:32.409 --> 00:38:35.409
in that too. There's weight in love and trauma,

00:38:35.530 --> 00:38:38.309
isn't there? There's weight of it all. And yeah,

00:38:38.389 --> 00:38:40.530
I can totally relate to that. I've had conversations

00:38:40.530 --> 00:38:43.630
like that with parents of, you actually get it.

00:38:43.630 --> 00:38:46.849
Like you understand their voice. You get it.

00:38:46.849 --> 00:38:49.329
And also somebody to be able to celebrate the

00:38:49.329 --> 00:38:51.849
small wins with. Because actually sometimes your

00:38:51.849 --> 00:38:53.889
own support network or your own family don't

00:38:53.889 --> 00:38:56.929
even really get it. Absolutely. And honestly,

00:38:57.170 --> 00:39:01.219
we treasure those people. You know, we absolutely

00:39:01.219 --> 00:39:03.820
treasure those people because it's so few and

00:39:03.820 --> 00:39:05.940
far between that there's other people that get

00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:08.699
to see our children just how we see them. And

00:39:08.699 --> 00:39:11.400
it was funny, actually, because I've started

00:39:11.400 --> 00:39:14.260
to talk a little bit about love now. And people

00:39:14.260 --> 00:39:17.739
think that's a bit funny to talk about another

00:39:17.739 --> 00:39:21.239
environment other than you as the parent showing

00:39:21.239 --> 00:39:24.739
love to your child. But honestly, I see that

00:39:24.739 --> 00:39:31.380
in that setting. I see. That that's not expected.

00:39:32.219 --> 00:39:36.099
It actually makes me quite teary thinking that

00:39:36.099 --> 00:39:42.360
that isn't a thing. I know. I call my class my

00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:45.139
kids, like, for a reason. Yeah, and they'll know

00:39:45.139 --> 00:39:48.380
that. They will absolutely know that. It makes

00:39:48.380 --> 00:39:51.460
me quite teary thinking that, that a setting

00:39:51.460 --> 00:39:53.320
would have a child, even if it's just for a year,

00:39:53.360 --> 00:39:57.739
and not love them, just breaks my heart. but

00:39:57.739 --> 00:40:00.159
I know you can feel it when it's there and you

00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:02.340
know when it's not there yeah I'm a children

00:40:02.340 --> 00:40:06.280
now right yeah and I think that's what we're

00:40:06.280 --> 00:40:09.019
paid for like why are you in this job if you

00:40:09.019 --> 00:40:10.820
aren't loving the children like surely that's

00:40:10.820 --> 00:40:14.219
the fundamental it's like surely And I think

00:40:14.219 --> 00:40:16.239
that that goes back to what we were saying earlier.

00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:18.559
When it feels like you're kind of never meeting

00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:21.079
that mark, you're always not quite good enough.

00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:23.860
This is a very different basis, isn't it? Because

00:40:23.860 --> 00:40:26.320
when it's based on love, you're invested in those

00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:29.500
people, whatever. Yeah, and it is missing the

00:40:29.500 --> 00:40:31.800
mark. I know you call yourself missing the mark,

00:40:31.820 --> 00:40:33.860
but it is. It is missing the mark. It's missing

00:40:33.860 --> 00:40:36.059
the whole point of this. You could be getting

00:40:36.059 --> 00:40:38.880
all the levels and results in the world, but

00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:41.739
if you're not loving the children, you've completely

00:40:41.739 --> 00:40:45.019
missed the point. You really have. I mean, even

00:40:45.019 --> 00:40:48.579
caseworkers, there should be some kind of love

00:40:48.579 --> 00:40:50.559
for these families there, but especially as a

00:40:50.559 --> 00:40:53.079
teacher. I just don't think there's any excuse.

00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:57.880
No, and I think that these children have not

00:40:57.880 --> 00:41:00.500
felt good enough. I mean, can you imagine being

00:41:00.500 --> 00:41:03.519
a child who ends up not being in school with

00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:06.380
their friends? Yeah, because no child wants that.

00:41:06.659 --> 00:41:10.170
And I think there's this... rhetoric as well

00:41:10.170 --> 00:41:13.949
of children families choosing to right students

00:41:13.949 --> 00:41:17.789
choosing to not no all of them want to be there

00:41:17.789 --> 00:41:20.269
why would you not want to be with your friends

00:41:20.269 --> 00:41:23.090
and learning and thriving away from your family

00:41:23.090 --> 00:41:25.190
and coming why would you not want that that isn't

00:41:25.190 --> 00:41:29.010
a thing they're not choosing to they can't do

00:41:29.010 --> 00:41:31.869
it i can't not won't is one of your things right

00:41:31.869 --> 00:41:35.929
yeah one of your books that is exactly it it's

00:41:35.929 --> 00:41:39.090
not that they won't do it They haven't been given

00:41:39.090 --> 00:41:42.849
the environment or the tools or the system in

00:41:42.849 --> 00:41:46.690
order to be able to access it. And them accessing

00:41:46.690 --> 00:41:51.070
it might look very different as well. I think

00:41:51.070 --> 00:41:54.469
that's a really important point that that will

00:41:54.469 --> 00:41:57.269
look different. Same as our parenting will look

00:41:57.269 --> 00:42:01.750
different. Absolutely. And inclusion doesn't

00:42:01.750 --> 00:42:06.300
have to mean 100 % attendance. No. included in

00:42:06.300 --> 00:42:09.179
every subject in every environment in everything

00:42:09.179 --> 00:42:11.639
that that isn't what we mean by inclusion it

00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:15.300
is belonging it is accepting and that could mean

00:42:15.300 --> 00:42:18.780
one afternoon a week if it's not to benefit the

00:42:18.780 --> 00:42:21.659
school it's to benefit the child i think that's

00:42:21.659 --> 00:42:25.340
the difference isn't it is a reduced timetable

00:42:25.340 --> 00:42:30.079
to benefit the family to benefit the child then

00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:33.769
that's inclusion if it's school because they're

00:42:33.769 --> 00:42:35.309
a bit distracting from the rest of the class

00:42:35.309 --> 00:42:38.050
that's exclusion and yet it can look exactly

00:42:38.050 --> 00:42:41.329
the same on paper that's a really important point

00:42:41.329 --> 00:42:44.650
and i speak to families who say they've had you

00:42:44.650 --> 00:42:46.989
know months and months and months of just driving

00:42:46.989 --> 00:42:49.369
up to the school dragging this child in so they

00:42:49.369 --> 00:42:51.769
can take the attendance at school and then off

00:42:51.769 --> 00:42:54.989
they go i mean what's the point and what trauma

00:42:54.989 --> 00:42:58.429
are you causing doing that and also that trauma

00:42:58.429 --> 00:43:01.570
between breaking down the parent and charge relationship

00:43:02.199 --> 00:43:04.900
Not just the school and the child. That's asking

00:43:04.900 --> 00:43:09.619
the parent to lose trust, lose loyalty, you know,

00:43:09.639 --> 00:43:12.480
huge breakdown of relationship. And then what

00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:14.679
has the child got? If you haven't even got trust

00:43:14.679 --> 00:43:17.360
with the parent and you feel like you're not

00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:20.139
even being understood by your own parents, I

00:43:20.139 --> 00:43:22.760
mean, that poor child, they really haven't got

00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:26.280
anyone that then gets it. And that's just awful.

00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:28.980
And I know that pressure comes from. the school

00:43:28.980 --> 00:43:31.440
and then above that it comes from the local authority

00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:33.099
and above that it comes from the government to

00:43:33.099 --> 00:43:35.900
the school to the parent and that's why I talk

00:43:35.900 --> 00:43:38.179
about this repair and restore when we're at home

00:43:38.179 --> 00:43:40.239
that's often what we're having to do as well

00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:42.980
it's not just you know repairing that child from

00:43:42.980 --> 00:43:45.739
those experiences but it's also repairing our

00:43:45.739 --> 00:43:48.639
relationship with our child because we have often

00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:51.300
broken their trust and it's a really good point

00:43:51.300 --> 00:43:54.059
that if you are in the position where you have

00:43:54.059 --> 00:43:56.760
a school refuser or you know you're not at attending

00:43:56.760 --> 00:43:59.440
school for whatever reason please please please

00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:02.440
from a teacher from the bottom of my heart don't

00:44:02.440 --> 00:44:07.199
even think about work for ages just focus on

00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:09.119
building that relationship again that is enough

00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:12.460
that actually is what's needed I think for both

00:44:12.460 --> 00:44:15.219
the parents and the teachers when you are trying

00:44:15.219 --> 00:44:18.039
to repair something you have to be really mindful

00:44:18.039 --> 00:44:20.780
of sticking to your word and not breaking promises

00:44:20.780 --> 00:44:24.099
because one of the thing I hear is that parents

00:44:24.099 --> 00:44:26.340
will often tell me They'll have an agreement

00:44:26.340 --> 00:44:29.199
with school that that child goes in for an hour

00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:31.920
and then school will say to them, oh, they seem

00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:34.360
fine. Don't worry. We'll keep them here all day.

00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:37.559
That's broken it. And that child will remember

00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:39.760
that you broke your promise. School broke their

00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:42.059
promise. Parents broke their promise. When we're

00:44:42.059 --> 00:44:44.139
doing this repairing, we must stick to that.

00:44:44.219 --> 00:44:46.460
If we are parenting and we say we're popping

00:44:46.460 --> 00:44:48.920
out, we're just going to the shop, I'll be 20

00:44:48.920 --> 00:44:52.579
minutes. Just be 20 minutes. These are all really

00:44:52.579 --> 00:44:56.000
important. commitments that we make to our child

00:44:56.000 --> 00:44:59.260
to say i'm sticking to my word because when historically

00:44:59.260 --> 00:45:01.579
those words have been broken that trust has been

00:45:01.579 --> 00:45:04.039
broken we have to rebuild that by absolutely

00:45:04.039 --> 00:45:07.480
sticking to that what we say what we say we mean

00:45:07.900 --> 00:45:10.860
And even if you don't say, I promise, any statement

00:45:10.860 --> 00:45:13.260
you give is a promise, especially with any anxious

00:45:13.260 --> 00:45:15.800
child. They will be looking for that. They need

00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:17.940
you to be concrete. And there is a huge weight

00:45:17.940 --> 00:45:20.699
to that as parents and teachers and those kind

00:45:20.699 --> 00:45:23.280
of advocates in your child's life. You can't

00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:26.340
over -egg it though. You can't do too much of

00:45:26.340 --> 00:45:29.159
that, particularly in the beginning. It's okay

00:45:29.159 --> 00:45:31.559
to be really preemptive with this stuff and say,

00:45:32.039 --> 00:45:34.000
You know, talking out loud, for example, is a

00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:36.199
great way of doing it. Sort of talking out loud.

00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:37.960
Oh, I'm just going into the kitchen to make a

00:45:37.960 --> 00:45:40.500
sandwich. They can hear you, even in the house.

00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:42.760
Because for those children where that attachment

00:45:42.760 --> 00:45:45.679
has been very much broken, it's about making

00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:49.219
that attachment again. Yeah. And you can't overdo

00:45:49.219 --> 00:45:51.940
it. Micro promises, can't it? All throughout

00:45:51.940 --> 00:45:53.840
the day. I'm going to do this and then I'm going

00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:55.420
to do that and stick to it. And it could be tiny

00:45:55.420 --> 00:45:57.380
little things that you always do. But it's a

00:45:57.380 --> 00:45:59.780
little promise. And then gradually. Those promises

00:45:59.780 --> 00:46:01.880
can build and build and it can be bigger and

00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:04.380
bigger and bigger, can't it? Yeah, that's, it's

00:46:04.380 --> 00:46:07.380
so true. And it's so important because so many

00:46:07.380 --> 00:46:10.039
promises have been broken. And for the schools

00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:12.300
that, yes, I know I could understand totally

00:46:12.300 --> 00:46:13.920
what happened there. Oh, they're fine. They could

00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:16.360
just stay. But we've broken that promise. And

00:46:16.360 --> 00:46:19.039
what we're asking of that child is your everything,

00:46:19.139 --> 00:46:20.880
because it probably gave everything to get through

00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:23.949
that first hour, isn't enough. That's what we're

00:46:23.949 --> 00:46:25.630
telling them. That's the narrative that we're

00:46:25.630 --> 00:46:27.710
saying is, I know you've given me everything.

00:46:27.849 --> 00:46:31.949
We want more from you. It just, that isn't okay.

00:46:33.030 --> 00:46:35.690
Stop on the positive as well. Don't wait until

00:46:35.690 --> 00:46:39.269
the children are forced to hurt themselves or

00:46:39.269 --> 00:46:41.489
others or damage the environment in order to

00:46:41.489 --> 00:46:43.710
actually listen to them. Because they will. If

00:46:43.710 --> 00:46:47.190
they can't say it because they're masking or

00:46:47.190 --> 00:46:50.280
they're non -speaking or whatever reason. then

00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:51.780
they're going to show it in their bodies. And

00:46:51.780 --> 00:46:53.440
what does that look like? It looks like, you

00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:56.139
know, hurting behaviours. And we don't want to

00:46:56.139 --> 00:46:58.760
force children to do that. We want to go slowly.

00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:01.579
Yeah, we've had it before. I've had a couple

00:47:01.579 --> 00:47:04.039
of school refusers in my class that have got

00:47:04.039 --> 00:47:05.960
to the school gate, didn't want to get through,

00:47:06.039 --> 00:47:08.460
didn't want to leave the car. It's a really big

00:47:08.460 --> 00:47:10.460
one. So I've showed the timetable and I've really

00:47:10.460 --> 00:47:12.019
reduced it. I've said, you just need to do these

00:47:12.019 --> 00:47:13.920
two things and then you go home. So that could

00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:15.659
have lasted 30 seconds. That could last half

00:47:15.659 --> 00:47:18.219
days up to them, you know. And when we've got

00:47:18.219 --> 00:47:20.619
to them, they've seemed fine. Oh, the TAs, they're

00:47:20.619 --> 00:47:21.980
having their sack now. They seem fine. I've called

00:47:21.980 --> 00:47:24.539
the parent. Oh, if they're okay. No, no, no,

00:47:24.559 --> 00:47:25.960
no. Because then it won't work tomorrow. We've

00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:28.199
lost them. Yeah. We have to take them home. And

00:47:28.199 --> 00:47:30.079
there's quite a lot of, I have to take quite

00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:31.880
a lot of confidence with that because I'm trying

00:47:31.880 --> 00:47:33.880
to justify to my senior leadership team why we're

00:47:33.880 --> 00:47:35.880
sending this perfectly happy child home. But

00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:38.960
I knew that tomorrow, yes, they are fine. And

00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:41.300
they probably did want to stay. that tomorrow

00:47:41.300 --> 00:47:43.539
morning is going to be the same and then I can't

00:47:43.539 --> 00:47:45.239
use that visual timetable again because they

00:47:45.239 --> 00:47:47.619
it means nothing and I'll have to think of a

00:47:47.619 --> 00:47:49.159
different strategy a different strategy different

00:47:49.159 --> 00:47:52.099
strategy I have to stick to it well what also

00:47:52.099 --> 00:47:54.019
that's doing is that's giving that child that

00:47:54.019 --> 00:47:56.639
sense that they have some control over this often

00:47:56.639 --> 00:47:59.420
children will be saying things it comes up a

00:47:59.420 --> 00:48:03.260
lot they'll say things like I felt trapped um

00:48:03.260 --> 00:48:06.889
and you know I felt like I couldn't leave and

00:48:06.889 --> 00:48:09.090
actually to build up they've got to feel like

00:48:09.090 --> 00:48:11.489
they can leave you know we often talk about sort

00:48:11.489 --> 00:48:13.469
of saying things like we can leave when you want

00:48:13.469 --> 00:48:16.030
to leave and when they say I want to leave now

00:48:16.489 --> 00:48:19.070
cool we'll leave now even if we have to rejuggle

00:48:19.070 --> 00:48:21.769
everything you know that is what we have to do

00:48:21.769 --> 00:48:24.429
in the beginning and that's teaching the children

00:48:24.429 --> 00:48:26.570
that then become adults exactly what we were

00:48:26.570 --> 00:48:28.829
speaking about before of leaving a situation

00:48:28.829 --> 00:48:30.710
that doesn't feel good to them we want them to

00:48:30.710 --> 00:48:32.469
be able to do that we want them to leave a job

00:48:32.469 --> 00:48:34.449
that is toxic we want them to be able to leave

00:48:34.449 --> 00:48:37.550
a relationship that is toxic it's teaching them

00:48:37.550 --> 00:48:39.869
those skills isn't it and it's saying We will

00:48:39.869 --> 00:48:41.989
listen to you. If we've said something doesn't

00:48:41.989 --> 00:48:43.670
feel good and it doesn't feel good and you advocate

00:48:43.670 --> 00:48:45.590
for yourself, whether that's through speaking,

00:48:45.710 --> 00:48:48.070
visual, whatever communication methods you use,

00:48:48.289 --> 00:48:52.050
you will be heard. My God, how much that is just

00:48:52.050 --> 00:48:53.690
teaching our children everything they need. And

00:48:53.690 --> 00:48:55.730
how much would that immediately as well dissipate

00:48:55.730 --> 00:48:58.329
that distress as well? Because we often think

00:48:58.329 --> 00:49:01.889
that if we listen and validate that, then we're

00:49:01.889 --> 00:49:03.929
compounding the issue, don't we? Oh, it'll get

00:49:03.929 --> 00:49:07.539
worse. If I agree. If I agree when they say the

00:49:07.539 --> 00:49:10.480
teacher, their new teacher's too shouty, then

00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:12.780
they're never going to go and interact with that

00:49:12.780 --> 00:49:15.239
teacher. But if actually you can do that, you

00:49:15.239 --> 00:49:17.320
can say to them, that must be horrible when they

00:49:17.320 --> 00:49:20.039
shout. Or talk about one of your experiences

00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:22.300
that immediately lessens that thing for them,

00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:24.300
doesn't it? Absolutely. It validates them. It's

00:49:24.300 --> 00:49:27.000
believing them. And whether they're able to say,

00:49:27.059 --> 00:49:28.199
I mean, I know I keep bringing it back to non

00:49:28.199 --> 00:49:29.579
-speaking, but I think it's important that this

00:49:29.579 --> 00:49:32.400
happens with all children. When your non -speaking

00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:34.239
children are saying they don't like something.

00:49:34.920 --> 00:49:37.800
um in whatever way they show believe them there

00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:39.699
is a reason there's something happening there

00:49:39.699 --> 00:49:41.380
if they're not if they're refusing to want to

00:49:41.380 --> 00:49:43.199
go into the school building there is a reason

00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:46.139
they are communicating something to you um it

00:49:46.139 --> 00:49:48.000
could be easily fixed in the environment or whatever

00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:49.619
but they are communicating things they believe

00:49:49.619 --> 00:49:55.500
them um ultimately and yeah validate that communication

00:49:55.500 --> 00:49:58.199
because there will be a reason like we said at

00:49:58.199 --> 00:50:00.260
the start it's can't not won't it's not they

00:50:00.260 --> 00:50:02.539
don't want to be there there will be a reason

00:50:02.539 --> 00:50:08.199
yeah Thank you so much, Eliza. What current projects

00:50:08.199 --> 00:50:12.639
are you working on? So the final, final, final

00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:15.320
edits, I have to say this as someone who is ADHD

00:50:15.320 --> 00:50:20.340
and autistic neurodivergent, there's always a

00:50:20.340 --> 00:50:23.530
lot of mistakes in my work, grammatical. mistakes

00:50:23.530 --> 00:50:27.170
so final final final edits have gone into my

00:50:27.170 --> 00:50:30.530
publisher so we now have a publication date of

00:50:30.530 --> 00:50:33.010
may for my follow -up to thumbsucker which is

00:50:33.010 --> 00:50:36.090
very exciting so that's could try harder about

00:50:36.090 --> 00:50:40.010
your teenage all about my teenage years it was

00:50:40.010 --> 00:50:42.710
really hard to write i have to say i don't know

00:50:42.710 --> 00:50:44.449
if it's because we're open for you it's very

00:50:44.449 --> 00:50:48.289
brave to share your own experience like that

00:50:48.289 --> 00:50:51.389
yeah it was much harder than i thought because

00:50:52.139 --> 00:50:54.719
I suppose we're nearer to our teenage years.

00:50:54.820 --> 00:50:57.539
I went to another person, a friend's book launch,

00:50:57.659 --> 00:50:59.539
and they were talking about teenage years. And

00:50:59.539 --> 00:51:02.539
apparently there's a reason we remember our teenage

00:51:02.539 --> 00:51:05.760
years more is also because there's a lot of new

00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:08.219
experiences that we're having as well. So we

00:51:08.219 --> 00:51:10.219
kind of, they stick in our memory a lot more.

00:51:10.340 --> 00:51:14.260
But it was a going to places I probably hadn't

00:51:14.260 --> 00:51:17.159
gone to. So there's a kind of... protectiveness

00:51:17.159 --> 00:51:20.219
I suppose that we all do around ourselves we

00:51:20.219 --> 00:51:22.860
kind of tell the same stories and you know they

00:51:22.860 --> 00:51:25.920
keep us safe don't they well this had to be a

00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:29.260
kind of really deep dive into lifting the lid

00:51:29.260 --> 00:51:31.880
if you like on those experiences. What pushed

00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:35.860
you to want to share that story with the public

00:51:35.860 --> 00:51:38.880
was it for your own benefit was it because you

00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:41.019
feel like actually these are the stories that

00:51:41.019 --> 00:51:44.059
need to be told what was that push to want to?

00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:47.360
share that I always do it from a sort of self

00:51:47.360 --> 00:51:51.659
-exploration first and foremost and for me I

00:51:51.659 --> 00:51:56.219
find that medium is a way I can do it much more

00:51:56.219 --> 00:51:58.780
than talking I mean I've done therapy for years

00:51:58.780 --> 00:52:03.340
on and off but I still find that the writing

00:52:03.340 --> 00:52:05.760
and the drawing is a way that I can formulate

00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:11.000
a lot more than I can verbally but also I wanted

00:52:11.000 --> 00:52:15.400
to suppose show You know, I'm kind of in that

00:52:15.400 --> 00:52:19.199
next stage of perimenopause, menopause. And I'm

00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:22.840
seeing, as I always see patterns in things, being

00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:26.960
neurodivergent, I'm seeing women like me. And

00:52:26.960 --> 00:52:30.980
I want to explore what that is before we are

00:52:30.980 --> 00:52:33.900
what we are now. Why we are getting to this place

00:52:33.900 --> 00:52:36.219
of suddenly wanting to lift the lid on things

00:52:36.219 --> 00:52:38.679
and rewrite things and do it a different way

00:52:38.679 --> 00:52:41.500
going forward. And I think... we are those women

00:52:41.500 --> 00:52:43.760
that we were talking about earlier we were we

00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:46.539
were those high achieving girls where that distress

00:52:46.539 --> 00:52:49.699
and those difficulties were absolutely not seen

00:52:49.699 --> 00:52:54.179
and led us on a very tricky path of perfectionism

00:52:54.179 --> 00:52:57.699
and people pleasing and a and a big loss of self

00:52:57.699 --> 00:53:00.019
doing that i always sort of stuck to because

00:53:00.019 --> 00:53:02.440
i've always had Very strong interests, reading,

00:53:02.719 --> 00:53:05.619
writing, drawing, art. I've always sort of said,

00:53:05.639 --> 00:53:07.400
oh no, you know, I've got a really strong sense

00:53:07.400 --> 00:53:09.820
of self. I kind of really held on to that. But

00:53:09.820 --> 00:53:13.559
actually unpicking it, I've realised behind that,

00:53:13.699 --> 00:53:16.920
it was very much about the validation of others

00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:21.139
first and foremost over my own self. That became

00:53:21.139 --> 00:53:24.210
more important. Absolutely. I really hope the

00:53:24.210 --> 00:53:26.429
more, it is a conversation that we're having

00:53:26.429 --> 00:53:29.250
now, isn't it? With females and with neurodivergence

00:53:29.250 --> 00:53:33.150
that are realizing in adulthood, what, why has

00:53:33.150 --> 00:53:36.570
been always the way that we've been. And we're

00:53:36.570 --> 00:53:38.630
finally understanding how our brains work and

00:53:38.630 --> 00:53:41.050
what that is, because actually we can mask so

00:53:41.050 --> 00:53:43.750
much that we're even masking from our own selves.

00:53:43.789 --> 00:53:46.389
You know, it's subconscious masking, I find,

00:53:46.449 --> 00:53:49.030
which is just really interesting. And now we're

00:53:49.030 --> 00:53:51.900
having that conversation now. there's books and

00:53:51.900 --> 00:53:53.719
people talk about and social media is in our

00:53:53.719 --> 00:53:56.460
pocket and we can learn this stuff about ourselves

00:53:56.460 --> 00:53:59.099
and others and find that community in that way

00:53:59.099 --> 00:54:04.739
i really i'm hopeful um that in generations to

00:54:04.739 --> 00:54:08.280
come other women coming through can start that

00:54:08.280 --> 00:54:10.619
journey a little bit earlier have less trauma

00:54:10.619 --> 00:54:12.340
understand a little bit more about themselves

00:54:12.340 --> 00:54:16.900
have advocates and mentors that get it and understand

00:54:16.900 --> 00:54:18.539
and have lived that like you know all those kind

00:54:18.539 --> 00:54:21.360
of things that we maybe didn't have I'm hopeful

00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:24.300
that by you writing your books and having your

00:54:24.300 --> 00:54:26.539
illustrations and other people sharing the same

00:54:26.539 --> 00:54:29.400
that we can have that for young yeah the next

00:54:29.400 --> 00:54:31.699
generation really I hope so and I hope that we

00:54:31.699 --> 00:54:33.760
can get to a place where we can feel comfortable

00:54:33.760 --> 00:54:37.349
to share difficult bits and I nearly said faults

00:54:37.349 --> 00:54:39.489
then that's the wrong word but I mean to show

00:54:39.489 --> 00:54:42.489
we make mistakes you know I think that there's

00:54:42.489 --> 00:54:45.510
such a fear of showing mistakes and particularly

00:54:45.510 --> 00:54:47.869
when we've got children that we need to parent

00:54:47.869 --> 00:54:50.190
differently and we feel under a lot of scrutiny

00:54:50.190 --> 00:54:52.789
with that all of that ramps it ramps up those

00:54:52.789 --> 00:54:55.349
early experiences doesn't it and I think we just

00:54:55.349 --> 00:54:57.909
need to kind of lift the lid on all of that stuff

00:54:57.909 --> 00:55:00.690
and feel okay to do that but it's going to take

00:55:01.289 --> 00:55:03.869
lots more people doing that and i think i i'm

00:55:03.869 --> 00:55:07.389
still sort of struggling with the there's still

00:55:07.389 --> 00:55:11.349
a kind of thing out there around neurodivergence

00:55:11.349 --> 00:55:13.750
where things have you have to be wonderful brilliant

00:55:13.750 --> 00:55:16.710
or gifted or something and i want to say what

00:55:16.710 --> 00:55:19.190
if you're not what if you just want to be really

00:55:19.190 --> 00:55:22.570
average and watch crappy telly and that's exactly

00:55:22.570 --> 00:55:26.769
okay yeah it's so true i think it's in the media

00:55:26.769 --> 00:55:31.159
isn't it that if autism is mentioned, it has

00:55:31.159 --> 00:55:34.159
to be, they have to have a gift in something,

00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:38.039
almost to be worthy of being seen or having the

00:55:38.039 --> 00:55:39.619
story written about them. They kind of have to

00:55:39.619 --> 00:55:42.719
be gifted. The Disney, the recent Disney film

00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:45.880
with the girl using AAC, the high -tech AAC,

00:55:45.980 --> 00:55:49.260
really frustrated me because she was an AAC user

00:55:49.260 --> 00:55:51.619
and incredibly gifted and intelligent. And I

00:55:51.619 --> 00:55:53.380
think, well, yeah, that's awesome for her. Like

00:55:53.380 --> 00:55:56.269
she's found her voice. But my kids are worthy

00:55:56.269 --> 00:55:59.150
too. And they have cognitive disabilities and

00:55:59.150 --> 00:56:02.909
they can't do that. But they're still worthy

00:56:02.909 --> 00:56:05.389
of a whole Disney film made about them. I felt

00:56:05.389 --> 00:56:06.889
the same about the telepathy tapes. I don't know

00:56:06.889 --> 00:56:08.230
if you've heard about the telepathy tapes. I

00:56:08.230 --> 00:56:10.710
have, yeah. I felt the same about them. That's

00:56:10.710 --> 00:56:12.309
wonderful for these kids that they're finding

00:56:12.309 --> 00:56:14.670
a voice and being understood. But my kids deserve

00:56:14.670 --> 00:56:17.070
a whole podcast about them too. And they can't

00:56:17.070 --> 00:56:20.250
do that. They're just as worthy. So yeah, it's

00:56:20.250 --> 00:56:23.639
that weird like... being I'm totally I'm really

00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:27.039
playing with that at the moment as well of um

00:56:27.039 --> 00:56:31.219
of that that feeling of being worthy of that

00:56:31.219 --> 00:56:34.179
story is just yeah something I'm playing with

00:56:34.179 --> 00:56:36.559
right now because I'm yeah incredibly passionate

00:56:36.559 --> 00:56:39.489
that well it feels like it's other people saying

00:56:39.489 --> 00:56:41.789
what is acceptable isn't it as well with that

00:56:41.789 --> 00:56:44.030
you know because we've got a lot of sort of high

00:56:44.030 --> 00:56:46.590
profile people now talking about their neurodivergence

00:56:46.590 --> 00:56:48.489
and they all look really polished and really

00:56:48.489 --> 00:56:51.090
brilliant and you're like well what about that

00:56:51.090 --> 00:56:53.610
person I remember I worked with for a bit who

00:56:53.610 --> 00:56:56.289
used to you know, I don't know, chew the sleeves

00:56:56.289 --> 00:56:58.769
of their jumper or didn't actually talk to anyone.

00:56:59.110 --> 00:57:02.389
You know, there's still an acceptable version

00:57:02.389 --> 00:57:04.210
is what I'm trying to say of what that should

00:57:04.210 --> 00:57:07.250
look like. And actually, I think we should just

00:57:07.250 --> 00:57:10.599
accept anyone. for who they are and where they're

00:57:10.599 --> 00:57:12.719
at and what they're doing it just stops there

00:57:12.719 --> 00:57:14.980
doesn't it it reminds me I once had a visitor

00:57:14.980 --> 00:57:17.420
in my class it was a supply teaching assistant

00:57:17.420 --> 00:57:19.980
and I was showing them you know who the way got

00:57:19.980 --> 00:57:22.260
in our class and they said to this one child

00:57:22.260 --> 00:57:24.380
oh so what are they good at you know always like

00:57:24.380 --> 00:57:28.480
there's a thing like and I was just completely

00:57:28.480 --> 00:57:30.960
dumbfounded by this question I was like um well

00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:32.920
they're really really great at finding shiny

00:57:32.920 --> 00:57:35.039
paper and stimming it to particularly bit in

00:57:35.039 --> 00:57:37.019
the light that they really enjoy like was what

00:57:37.019 --> 00:57:39.980
I found and I Which is true. They're brilliant

00:57:39.980 --> 00:57:42.159
at doing that. But I was a bit like, why is that

00:57:42.159 --> 00:57:44.539
the question? Like, I just find that, I just

00:57:44.539 --> 00:57:46.579
thought that was just, yeah, it really just took

00:57:46.579 --> 00:57:47.900
me back. So yeah, what you were saying there

00:57:47.900 --> 00:57:50.360
just reminds me of that. I'm like, I'm sure.

00:57:51.130 --> 00:57:54.309
I don't know. Well, that's the other thing that

00:57:54.309 --> 00:57:55.909
I've been working on. So that's out in May, that

00:57:55.909 --> 00:57:58.210
book. But what I've been working on that's still

00:57:58.210 --> 00:58:00.369
at proposer stage is I'm working on a children's

00:58:00.369 --> 00:58:02.369
book because I met someone when I was doing my

00:58:02.369 --> 00:58:05.369
work at Cambridge University and they were doing

00:58:05.369 --> 00:58:08.469
their PhD about autonomy in children's books.

00:58:08.710 --> 00:58:11.090
And they were talking about how obviously they're

00:58:11.090 --> 00:58:13.190
written by adults. So there's always a hidden

00:58:13.190 --> 00:58:15.789
agenda to that. And I get sent so many books

00:58:15.789 --> 00:58:18.210
to read and review. And, you know, sometimes

00:58:18.210 --> 00:58:20.070
there's children's books in that around kind

00:58:20.070 --> 00:58:22.139
of neurodiversity. divergence and I have to say

00:58:22.139 --> 00:58:25.360
that most of them I cannot I cannot bear them

00:58:25.360 --> 00:58:28.920
because I can see this agenda that is you know

00:58:28.920 --> 00:58:31.960
to get this well -behaved child to do what parents

00:58:31.960 --> 00:58:34.820
want that is still that kind of Victorian narrative

00:58:34.820 --> 00:58:38.099
but you know written in a jolly way and and they

00:58:38.099 --> 00:58:41.179
really they bug me and um luckily I've worked

00:58:41.179 --> 00:58:43.400
with Chelsea Luca and I'm doing her second book

00:58:43.400 --> 00:58:46.539
which is much more um she gets it and she's on

00:58:46.539 --> 00:58:48.679
the right page but there was a reason I wanted

00:58:48.679 --> 00:58:50.260
to write my own children's book because I thought

00:58:50.260 --> 00:58:52.800
I don't I don't like this icky feeling that these

00:58:52.800 --> 00:58:55.500
children books give me you know and what are

00:58:55.500 --> 00:58:57.840
we telling our children that we're reading that

00:58:57.840 --> 00:59:00.440
to if that's our story of what neurodivergence

00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:04.360
is yeah yeah so true yeah it's definitely something

00:59:04.360 --> 00:59:07.639
I haven't worked out yet but I'm definitely playing

00:59:07.639 --> 00:59:11.590
with this idea of of um yeah something to do

00:59:11.590 --> 00:59:13.590
with well often it is it starts with that doesn't

00:59:13.590 --> 00:59:15.670
it it starts with this sense of i've got this

00:59:15.670 --> 00:59:18.110
sense of something's not quite right right and

00:59:18.110 --> 00:59:20.289
i don't know what it is but i will do something

00:59:20.289 --> 00:59:22.610
about it yeah at the moment it's just rants on

00:59:22.610 --> 00:59:24.590
my instagram story but i'm sure it will end up

00:59:26.760 --> 00:59:30.400
Thank you so much for joining me today, Eliza.

00:59:30.420 --> 00:59:33.340
It's been an absolute joy talking to you. I resonate

00:59:33.340 --> 00:59:36.159
so much with what you've said and I really hope

00:59:36.159 --> 00:59:40.780
that listeners do as well. Where can people find

00:59:40.780 --> 00:59:43.139
you if they wanted to find your books and illustrations,

00:59:43.159 --> 00:59:45.300
just more information about what's to come? Yeah,

00:59:45.300 --> 00:59:47.980
so I've got a website, missingthemark .co .uk

00:59:47.980 --> 00:59:51.579
and you can just look me up. Just look up Eliza

00:59:51.579 --> 00:59:53.460
Fricker or Missing the Mark and you'll find me

00:59:53.460 --> 00:59:57.440
lurking about. and yeah definitely follow your

00:59:57.440 --> 01:00:00.059
illustrations are fantastic highly shareable

01:00:00.059 --> 01:00:02.860
and yeah i just every single one just makes me

01:00:02.860 --> 01:00:04.940
smile or angry it just makes me feel something

01:00:04.940 --> 01:00:08.420
which i i love that about your stuff um thank

01:00:08.420 --> 01:00:10.079
you so much eliza have a good day