Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education
teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything
communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson
ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged
4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in
the field answering your questions and sharing
our knowledge and experience working alongside
our beautiful young people. Let's get started.
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today. Now to the episode. Hello everybody and
welcome to the Sensory Classroom podcast. My
name is Jordan. Today I am thrilled to be joined
by Eliza Fricker, an illustrator and a huge advocate
and consultant for PDA, autism and learning.
She has published several books and we're going
to be talking about the school environment and
the impact of that on children and families today.
Hello Eliza. Hi, thanks for having me. You are
so welcome. I've really been looking forward
to this. I adore your illustrations and I adore
your social media. I suppose, are you okay introducing
yourself in a way of what came first? Was it
autism advocacy? Was it illustration? Was it
author or something else? Yeah, it was definitely
illustrating first because that was my processing
of. the experiences we'd had so once we were
at home and we were no longer able to go to school
I definitely had quite a lot I'm happy to admit
this now I had a lot of rage at the time I was
massively disappointed with how things had gone
I could see some elements that could have been
done better but I think sending emails that were
very emotional that I was sending was quite exposing
for me at the time I realized I was sending these
emails and they were kind of well often not even
getting a response or I would get a very kind
of unemotional response back they weren't able
to sort of offer what I was looking for so that
was kind of quite a quick learning lesson for
me and so the drawing was a way that I could
process that stuff those experiences but that
felt a lot safer I'd always been an illustrator
anyway. So for me to sort of have to stop doing
what I love because my child was now at home
would have been really impactful for me anyway.
So kind of shifting it into something that had
a purpose was just a really helpful tool. And
it felt quite powerful tool at the time. I sometimes
look back on the illustrations now and they look
quite angry. because I was you know I was angry
they've sort of shifted now I suppose a bit over
time as of you know healed and come come through
that um I think it's really important to address
all those emotions and I think parents need to
know that there is a space to do that and we
didn't have those spaces when I was going through
it um it was certainly the illustration first
and then as time went on I sort of made connections
and people wanted to talk to me and I think people
realised that I was kind of a safe space to do
that as well. Yeah absolutely are you all right
explaining a little bit about you said you were
let down are you all right talking a little bit
about what that entailed because I have so many
parents listening to this podcast that are exactly
where you were at then and they I'm sure relate
to that and that feeling of let down anger. lack
of any I mean yeah you said emotional feedback
but it's almost just any care or of being treated
like a human almost it's very robotic and yeah
I've felt that firsthand and I'm sure parents
can relate to that as well. Yeah I don't think
there were sort of many actual human beings that
were sort of causing harm I think it was more
the sort of bigger issue of the system we did
have one I can name, I won't name, but I could
name one specific person who was very much centred
on their job and was very unemotional at a time
that was hugely emotional for us. I now realise
that they had caused quite a lot of harm for
other parents as well at that time. It wasn't
just us. But overall, I didn't have that, luckily.
I didn't have a specific person or... difficulties
with lots of people. I would say the local authority
element is very difficult and I would say when
you're dealing with trying to sort out an EHCP
and you're trying to sort out your provision
when you're dealing with caseworkers that is
very difficult because caseworkers are just admin
assistants. They have no knowledge of neurodivergence.
they're not there to hold that space at all for
distressed parents. And that is very traumatising
because it's an exposure of yourself at the rawest
time and you're not going to get anything back
that supports you. Yeah, and for parents, that
is also that layer of advocating for a young
person that can't necessarily advocate for themselves.
So you're sharing your voice as your family,
aren't you? Because it's having an impact on
you and your family. But you're also their voice
too. And the responsibility of that is massive.
And I don't think it... I don't think local authority
understand the weight of that, of advocating
for yourself and for your child. No, and I think
people might think it's a bit kind of woo -woo
to talk about trauma informed. But I think when
it comes to the local authority and that side
of things, I think it would be so helpful for
parents to have some of that. I think, you know,
teachers and other professionals, ed psychs are
much more aware of that. And often you've built
up a relationship with them, particularly in
primary school. So they are able to hold a little
bit more. for you in those difficult times and
you will meet some that will really go the extra
mile to do that you know we had a brilliant educational
psychologist at the time who who really did do
that and was brave enough to to hold those difficult
times but yeah the local authority you are literally
talking to a cardboard cutout at the at the hardest
times in your life i mean their caseloads are
their caseloads are huge aren't they and they
burn out themselves you know that's the other
thing you know you'll see the turnover parents
will talk about you know you're emailing one
person then they leave and you'll get someone
else because their caseload is ridiculous Yeah,
I mean, why you would ever take that job on,
I have no idea. I don't know. I know in Cornwall,
I can't speak for you, but in Cornwall, I think
each caseworker has about 18 ,000 children on
their caseload. I mean, you couldn't possibly
know their EHCPs. You couldn't possibly meet
them or even understand or remember the details.
It really is as black or white as this date,
that date. And they're just meeting the bare
minimum. I mean, not even that, honestly, because
the times are going over and over. I've had four
year sixes leave now without a school placement.
And there's just been this just abyss of nothing.
Yeah. And it's strange, isn't it, when you've
been under that enormous pressure through that
sort of attendance narrative and then... Yes.
Once you drop out, there's this cruel irony that
suddenly there's no one there rushing around
to find you a school place. So true. And having
to meet the EHCP, yeah, having to get their attendance,
having to justify all of these time out, even
though they're completely justified because there's
hospital visits and all sorts that come along
with these diagnoses. Yeah, it's so true. And
maybe that is where some of the anger feels from.
It just feels so unfair. There's no leeway when
it's us that are... that are not meeting their
requirements. But then when they're not meeting
their legal requirements, there seems so much
time and leniency and we have to be so patient.
And it all ultimately affects the children that
we love most in the whole wide world that can't
advocate for themselves necessarily. And it's
just all fueling this fire, isn't it? Yeah, I
mean, that fire is passionate as well. And you're
the parent and you're seeing your child be let
down. Is there anything greater than that, I
think? wanting stuff for your child that isn't
happening. No. And it's also, I mean, it's so
unfair. I've seen highly intelligent, educated
women. I've seen lecturers that are parents of
these autistic children without a school place
and they are writing eloquent letters and doing
countless research and it's all cited and honestly
beautiful. This thing that I've seen could be
published. It is fantastic. And yet it made no
difference. So in my mind, when I was seeing
this happening as the teacher, the helpless teacher,
just so wanting to hold these families and hold
this local authority to account and seeing it
all happen in front of my eyes and being completely
helpless, only to just be the face of it all,
I suppose. And I talk about that a lot, the sort
of the trappedness that we have as the parents
and the trappedness that the teachers and professionals
have by this system. We're all kind of trapped
by it, aren't we? I suppose what's the answer?
Complete reform, is it? Yeah, and I think giving
back more autonomy to schools and to teachers.
So allowing teachers to make more flexible curriculums
based on their class and the needs of the children
in that class and bringing teachers in for the
skills that they have and why they wanted to
be a teacher. You know, I've got family members
that were teachers all their lives and I know
they said by the end of it, it was a very different
thing to what they had started out wanting to
do. Both of the family members I'm thinking of
at the minute, they're both very, very creative
people. That creativity was something they brought
to that class and brought a joy to those children,
I can imagine, because they certainly brought
a joy to my life. But they said by the end, there
was no time for any of that. They weren't able
to bring that. And that makes me really sad.
Yeah, what a loss. Are those creativity? Because
I can imagine you're incredibly creative. Is
that some of the benefits that you noticed, even
though you would, of course, rather a specialist
provision and education system that suited your
child? It obviously wasn't there, which is why
you were at home. Some of the benefits of that,
I'm not sure there are lots of benefits of being
at home, that ability to be creative and fit
that in, whereas teachers maybe not have the
time to be able to do that. Yeah, and I think
that engagement for particularly neurodivergent
students is very based on interests. And we do
see there's some schools doing that. If you look
at things like democratic schools or self -directed
learning, that's what the principle of it is
based on, is looking at those children's strengths
and working towards that. Now, I can already
hear the grey suits with their lanyards on saying,
well, how are they going to get a broad curriculum
doing that? Well, actually, you can shoehorn
a lot in by working around their interests first.
and foremost and i know that because we had a
tuition service who did very much that when they
came to our house so it's doable but obviously
you've got to be creative with it absolutely
i was a foster carer and we had virtual school
coming in um yeah two hours a day to support
our child who was out of education a very similar
story you know there wasn't a suitable place
and that kind of thing so i've kind of i've seen
it from teacher and parent kind of point of view
that frustration of wanting to advocate for a
child that had already been through so much But
yeah, absolutely as possible. They were really
into Marvel at the time and they managed to shoehorn
it into writing. Matthew, you just have to be
creative, don't you? But it felt like play to
him. It felt fun and motivating to him. There's
also so much trauma around these children and
education, if they have been in... a tricky situation
a wrong setting out for the parents actually
so being able to almost mask and disguise learning
through what feels really safe and good to them
might help rebuild some of that love of learning
I think you're absolutely right I think when
there's trauma involved It has to feel different.
That is so essential with it. If it feels like
school, when I speak to families, I think we
all are conditioned so much that we think it's
home or school. And then we think that home,
we replicate school in the home. There's never
going to be engagement doing that. If there's
trauma to that school environment, it has to
feel completely different. And that's how we
heal from that. Because when we have these new
experiences that feel different, we start to
think, OK, this is OK for me. This feels different.
This feels... okay. Yeah I couldn't agree more
and actually there's a kind of archaic understanding
of what that schoolwork is even looking like
like I often see lots of paperwork and lots of
pencils and writing and actually that isn't what
my teaching looks like for lots of my learners
it doesn't look like paperwork at all in fact
I think I get the prize in my school for doing
the least photocopying which the SLT love. Because
there just really isn't much on paper at all.
And if there is, it's for my team. It's not for
the kids. Just because of where they're at, it's
all puppets and toys and songs and musical instruments
and tangible physical items that we can mouth
and chew and manipulate. And I bet they remember
that. You know, they'll remember that stuff.
I don't remember so much from school because
it was all writing stuff down and remembering
dates and, you know, numbers. Which works for
some learners. I've also worked with other neurodivergent
learners that work really well. They have an
incredible memory, are classic academic learners,
and they like bookwork, paperwork, pencils. It's
just not what my class is like now. I suppose
that's the point, right? It's about individualizing
that learning and the benefit of specialist education
and home education is that we get the luxury
of doing that. Because ultimately, every child
would benefit. from that I suppose I mean it's
strange isn't it because it is a service for
children their autonomy in this is so well small
isn't it and actually what we should be thinking
about is for these children so much of their
learning is about what's in it for me and if
we start from that place like you said if they're
creative we go that route if they if they're
more academic and pen to paper we go that route
but we don't we just don't look at it that way
no it's one size fits all and maybe because it
there's now 30 children in a class and you know
you have to just do it one way and then adapt
from there and it yeah it does feel odd to me
I would be a rubbish mainstream school teacher
honestly um I went for one interview once and
uh it was a reception job so I thought oh that's
creative I can do that and it and even just in
the interview I could just tell it just It wasn't
diverse enough for me. It wasn't individualized
enough for me. They were celebrating the high
achievers and wanting to show me their books.
And all I could focus on was the three clearly
autistic learners that were fidgeting in the
corner that needs weren't being met. And I knew
right then that actually I'd be lost here. You
know, my skills would be wasted here because
actually I just care about these three children
whose needs aren't being met. And that's when
I knew, actually, no, I need to go back into
special education. Junior energy levels doing
it in a way that didn't, into by you yeah totally
I mean we're all we are like that aren't we um
even as adults we need to have we work best when
we are inspired and motivated and when we're
passionate about something I can imagine I mean
bringing it back to your illustrations and your
books they're of such high quality and so profound
for other people because they're profound for
you yeah you need that emotion behind it and
I think that's so true that You can really see
the difference between when you're really into
doing something and when you're not. I used to
get like that used to happen to me even when
I went to art college. You know, they could clearly
tell when I wasn't into it. It wasn't because,
you know, I wasn't able to do this stuff. I can
draw and but they could just tell. And I used
to get really frustrated because I think I think
I've really, you know, I've really won them over
with this. you know pulled the wool over their
eyes because I was trying to get out of stuff
I didn't want to do but they could tell you can
tell when people aren't into that yeah yeah totally
and I feel like the neurodivergence in us as
well it's even more obvious like for me I can
really it feels magnified for me in comparison
to my husband maybe that I really do need to
be passionate about something and then it's it's
hyper focused I'm I'm to the point of i'm obsessed
with it i can't let it go i have to do it but
also on the other side if i'm not interested
i just can't make myself do it no and i think
also the other element to that is the interactions
with the people that we're involved with within
that doing that project so i'm thinking about
um i've had some recent things with a work thing
and it's just not gelling for me and i can't
get i can't pull it out the bag because The communication
is different with the two people involved in
this. All of it, I'm just like, I can't pull
it out of the bag. Whereas the other people that
I work with, you know, I've got a fantastic editor
and people I co -author with. It just flows,
you know, there's no problem to it whatsoever.
And I can see that now so clearly. So for our
children, imagine being around. you know adults
teachers that they don't have that relationship
with how difficult that must be for them yeah
I suppose that's the answer isn't it for teachers
listening to this like how can I replicate this
I'm a mainstream teacher I've got first year
and how can I replicate this I get it I can hear
what you're saying how can I replicate it it
is about connection isn't it and that relationship
building I had a chat with somebody on the podcast
recently and said just take five you know ask
five questions do you know five things about
the child that is nothing to do with their learning
their levels or anything you know can you name
their pet do you know what football team they
support you know their favorite food you make
sure you do because if you don't you're not going
to know enough in how they learn and how they
work and just their relationship honestly to
actually be able to teach them effectively and
i thought that was really great advice I think
so. And I think it's got to come from a really
authentic place. I know that word gets banded
around authenticity, but it's something we feel,
isn't it? It's a genuine thing we feel. Is this
person just box ticking here or do they really,
are they genuinely interested in me? Yeah. And
everybody can feel that, can't they? And my non
-speaking high support needs learners can absolutely
feel that. You can see that we all doing intensive
interaction and yet. The adults that are really
trying hard to find what it is that they're finding
so interested about this stimming toy compared
to the ones that are just mimicking, they get
such a different response. That's really interesting.
Totally. It looks the same. You know, everybody's,
you know, mimicking. But you can really feel
it. It's tangible almost. when an adult is really
trying to enjoy what the child is enjoying. And
I can't put my finger on it, but my goodness,
the child knows totally. However high support
needs they are, you get such a different reaction.
It really is about investment of energy, I think,
in what they're interested in. Yeah. And what
would you say about the difference in communication
styles as well? You know, sometimes I think we
do just have different ways of communicating
and they don't work together. I mean, that's
human nature, right? Isn't it? Yeah, absolutely.
And yeah, different ways of even how you're positioned.
You know, there's so much nuance in it, isn't
there? Are you too close? Are you kind of...
looking too much are you not looking enough are
you touching not touching yeah everybody's different
and it is about knowing that individual which
again is such a luxury in special education I
really really do know my learners like so well
I have them for seven years for a start which
is just incredible we're really part of the family
by the time they they leave us and I wouldn't
want it any other way I can't imagine not having
it I can't imagine having it any other way. But
you've got that time, haven't you? Look at how
much time you get to invest in it. That's an
amazing thing. Yeah, and less children as well.
So it's more concentrated, isn't it? And I'm
just not the right person to, I suppose, tell
mainstream teachers how it is possible because
I haven't experienced that. I know it is possible
because I know some teachers do it really well.
But as for strategies, I don't know because it
just feels like a lot, doesn't it, when they're
already... I think that relationship underpinning
it, though, because when Naomi and myself and
her sister wrote What Can We Do When School's
Not Working, there were schools within that mainstream
system that were really going out on a limb to
do things differently. And a lot of the underpinning
of that was relationships. And like we were just
saying, it's making those students feel like
they've got a sense of worth, really. they mean
something and I think we all need that as humans
we all need to feel that we mean something to
people even if we it looks different you know
maybe it's maybe when mainstream school is focusing
too much on those results well the ones that
maybe aren't going to get those results still
putting the sense of worth and putting a bit
into that relationship anyway but in a different
way not looking at it because the grade aspect
It's so true. I saw one of your illustrations,
actually. I think you posted it recently about
the measure and what we're measuring. And I loved
that because it's so true. Mainstream are so
on measuring attendance or measuring levels.
But actually, maybe that's not the real data
here. Maybe we need to measure relationships,
I know you said, or measure creativity, measure
trying. There's, I hate the attendance thing
anyway, but I loved your illustration of that
because it's so true that we just need to change
what we're focusing on. So often it isn't even
up to the children about attendance for a start,
or it's about their medical needs, or it's about
parent setup, you know, it's nothing to do with
the child. So they shouldn't be publicly shamed
on the edge. not on the 100 % attendance register
or these awful traffic light systems that we
get in classes, which still exist. Teachers always
DM me when I mention them and say, they don't
exist anymore. They do. I've seen them. People
have traffic light, awful public shaming. displays
of who's on green and who's on red and who's
on this and I just think we're measuring the
wrong thing what if we were to measure kindness
or trying or really knowing their body my learners
really know their body they really do advocate
for themselves they are incredible at that they
know exactly what their bodies need why aren't
we measuring that I think that's a wonderful
I mean I have to draw that I'm gonna have to
draw measuring trying I think that is such an
amazing like I actually feel really emotional
hearing that because We just don't really think
about what children are struggling with underneath
and how hard they might be trying. And I think
that's such an important thing. I've just finished
my follow on to Thumbsucker about my childhood,
which is my secondary school years. And it's
called Could Try Harder. And it's all about that
because I was a top set student, but they didn't
see how hard that was for me. And so. You know,
there was this constant push, push, push, push.
And I was never quite enough. And that's really
impactful, you know, because they're not seeing
what's going on underneath for those young people.
There is an assumption that they can just get
more out of you. And I think, you know, if we
actually just, you know, celebrated people for
where they're at a lot more than we do. Yeah,
and it's classic female neurodivergence, isn't
it? That fawn response, that people -pleasing
response. And for teachers, they look like, yeah,
model student, always doing well. But the problem
is you are asking so much of them. And the bar
keeps raising, I find, that, you know, okay,
they've got 99 % attendance, we want 100. Or
they've got this score, we need more. We need
more quiet, more responsible, more still, more
focused, you know. And there's so much pressure.
And I say females, I hate to say that, but it
is so common with females. And the problem is,
is that they are burning out. They're burning
out at home. They're burning out afterwards.
It ends up as school refusal. It looks like eating
disorders, any way of trying to manage their
body and have a sense of control because they
cannot hold it together anymore. Yeah, it leads
to school refusal. Well, and I think that's a
really important point because a psychologist
has written the afterword to this book and it
was really hard to read as she sort of unpicked
this story of my adolescence going through this.
And I think what you're saying is really important
is... Because what we're not looking at when
we think about school is that school is a short
term investment. And for parents, we're looking
at a long term investment in our child. And we
need to see that how impactful that can potentially
be long term. This is why we have women doing
too much, women doing parenting. and working
and doing the housework. And it's still happening.
And it's particularly ramped up for neurodivergent
women because we have become, like you said,
the people pleasers and perfectionists ultimately.
We must be what that sort of message sends of
not good enough and you can try harder is that
ultimately we become these people that try and
be everything and that's not sustainable. Oh,
and it's setting up our young people to be incredibly
vulnerable in situations, either a work situation.
I've certainly felt that relationship situation.
You know, if you're constantly people pleasing
and ignoring your own gut feeling about a situation
in order to please others, to be that perfect
response, that can only put you in a really vulnerable
position. And we certainly don't want that for
our young people. I don't think any schools,
local authority or parents would want that for
their young people. But that's kind of what we're
asking them. We're asking them to ignore your
body. ignore what feels good for you ignore that
you need um I mean it starts out with ignore
that you need a movement break ignore that you
need the toilet right now because you've just
been and all those things that's what we're asking
them to which on the surface seems like oh yeah
of course that's a big thing but then what that
turns into as adults is ignore that whistleblowing
thing that you probably should have counted ignore
that safeguarding issue ignore when your boyfriend
actually isn't talking to you very well or treating
you very well you know because actually they're
the authority figure and actually your job is
to just ignore your gut feelings and think that's
incredibly dangerous and I can see it happening
in my the team I work with my teaching assistants
I can see that in all the way filtering down
all through the mainstream school that I'm attached
to I can just see that language of and it starts
with attendance it starts with sitting still
and focusing but it really is incredibly dangerous
Well, it creates a complete disconnect from your
own self and needs, even in times of deep distress.
So, of course, that leads on to very harmful
things as an adult. Yeah, this is why these things
need to be lifelong. This is lifelong learning,
what we're kind of advocating for, isn't it?
Yeah, absolutely. And I suppose if you've got
trauma at school, then you've almost learned
that learning isn't for you, it doesn't feel
good for you. And then you won't look for more.
Whereas how maybe I'm doing in my class, and
you're doing in your home, that kind of special
interest subjects, child led learning, it breeds
that sense of love of learning, lifelong learning.
It means that they'll then be adults that will
research things, look things up, be open minded,
be open to change, open to grow. Yeah, that's
the kind of world I want to live in. Yeah, and
I think I've had, I haven't had a huge pushback
about it, but I definitely have had some parents
sort of ask me about my child returning to school
and, you know, why did I do that? What's that?
That's the ultimate aim. Yeah. And they sort
of thought, oh, why, you know, why have you done
that? You know, why have you put them back into
something? But I made sure it was a very different
environment. And the point as well of that is
that I wanted them to have that experience to
be a positive one ultimately, and to know that
there are other ways of learning and it can feel
quite different. That was really important, actually.
I think after... you know a few years of being
at home when they were well again but I could
see we needed something else and I could see
that that experience of being away from me was
also really important at this next stage there's
so much more that's taught at school that is
way beyond academics I think that's actually
more important I think um a intellectual home
you know you could do all that stuff that's that's
almost not the thing that she's learning at school
but it's those socials skills isn't it it's those
rules it's being part of a community that isn't
part of your home community there's so much more
that's taught at school that that are the benefits
of that I'm sure how what's different now compared
to before in the new setting and what kind of
things were you looking for I suppose to ensure
her safety in that I didn't actually know what
I was looking for at the time. I got some advice
a very, very long time ago by someone from the
PDA Society. I don't know if they still have
this, but they did have a kind of phone line
that you could call. And I spoke to someone there
and she said, look at everything out there. Just
look at everything. And it was a really good
bit of advice that I've carried on and I share
with families now because looking at everything
means that you can start to formulate a picture
because often you don't know what you're actually
looking for for your child. You could even be
kind of sending long emails to your caseworker
about, you know, wanting provision, but you've
got no idea what you want. And I was certainly
in that position. going around and looking at
what was out there was really important because
then I could see the bits that I did like and
I didn't like and I'd also now had a child at
home who I could really see was unmasking and
I could start to build a picture of actually
where they were at and what their needs were
because I talk a lot about this kind of residual
masking I think goes on with our children that
even when you have them at home it takes a long
time for that mask to come off because it's been
going on for so long within school so it was
a combination of seeing that sort of mask come
off seeing her needs plus looking at other things
out there um and it was such a broad range because
you know you've got mainstream and specialists
but there's so much going on within both of those
every different isn't it absolutely and so It
was actually, for all our kind of grumps about
the local authority, we'd been at home for quite
a long time. And I couldn't see, I'd seen some
things, but nothing quite right. And I was thinking,
well, we're going to have to do a EOTAS. But
we were at a stage where we were both kind of
plateauing. This comes up quite a lot with families
where you've been at home for a long time and
the energy's running out on this situation. And
it was, I was going for EOTAS. Didn't really
feel like we have many other options. And then
it was the caseworker that said, have you thought
about this setting? And I thought it's going
to be rubbish. Because I thought if the local
authority are offering it, it's probably rubbish.
And it's going to be rubbish. Because I'd seen
a few of their other options before and they
were rubbish. I went full of cynicism to this
setting and it wasn't even near us. It was sort
of like a good 40 minutes in a taxi. And I went
in really kind of prepped for this, you know,
with all my child's needs and shown around by
the headteacher. And as we were walking around.
I started to sort of soften and think this feels
really nice and this feels really different.
And just the way she was interacting with the
children and what she was saying. And she, at
the end, she said, look, we're going to make
mistakes, but we say sorry and we'll figure it
out. We'll work this out. This is about parents
being as ready for this as the child. We can't
take your child if you're not ready for this
because it's not going to work. And by the end
of that, I broke down and I was completely in
bits. And she said, I don't think I've seen someone
this emotional about this before. And I said,
it's because I feel like I can let go. I've been
doing this for so long. Holding all the responsibility.
Yeah. I was like, I need a break. And I actually
believe they could do it. And we are however
many years down the line and they're still doing
it. I'm not saying it's perfect. And this is
part of the healing process. She was absolutely
right. We have to be healed ourselves. We have
to be ready for this. We have to allow there
are going to be bumps. I mean, we've had some
real bumps along the way with this setting. You've
got lots of trauma and triggers built up over
your daughter's education system and your own
too, haven't you? It's all a big amalgamation
of stuff. To work out. Yeah. But part of the
next step for us was taking that risk and allowing
her to start accessing the outside world. This
wasn't a rush. We'd had lots of time at home,
but the world was out there and I'm just there
to kind of shimmy along next to her and give
her those opportunities. But that was part of
it. Being a parent is to offer those opportunities
as well, but obviously only when it feels right.
Yeah, of course. I definitely felt that when
I was at home with my child in foster care. It
was it was wonderful because I got to spend so
much time with him and we knew each other incredibly
well. But it was a lot. It was a lot of me looking
back to be the parent and the teacher and the
advocate and at times the social worker because
they were doing their job. all of those things
it's a lot to ask of one person and it definitely
impacted my relationship to just be the parent
which was ultimately my actual job to be absolutely
and I see that when I speak to families and they
will like I said earlier there'll be this sort
of plateauing so you'll see it where they kind
of everyone just kind of has reached a point
they're kind of a bit over it you know um it's
very hard to keep that energy up I mean Laura
Kirby who I write quite a few books about um
PDA with she runs a tutor company and she said
you know it's the same with her tutors she has
to change it up because energy level to sustain
that is incredibly difficult doing it all yourself
at home and I think also when you've got a child
who's 10 it's very different when you have an
adolescent naturally for adolescents they want
to start to move away from us and they want to
have different opportunities and it starts to
shift yeah and so You want them to feel comfortable
in their own world and in their own selves to
be able to have that independence. And I suppose
for you, that was, you know, finding at that
right school. And for others, it might be joining
a group or something. But I mean, for any parent,
you want as much independence. I mean, let's
be careful here, how we say this, but as much
independence or as much fulfilled life as they
can have within the realms of their disability
and diagnose it. Yeah. And, you know, even I
mean, I still get asked it now, the really generic
questions. Well, are they doing GCSEs or are
they doing A -levels or, you know, and I'm so
far from that that I don't even think about it.
In fact, someone asked me not longer. So do they
do like A -level stuff? And I was like, I don't
actually know. I mean, that sounds. It doesn't
matter. It doesn't matter because they're so
interested and safe and happy when they're there.
Yeah. And I can tell you that any school, if
she wants to and is ready, she will be able to
do it. If she's not ready or can't for whatever
reason, she won't. And I can tell you that now.
I don't even know the school, but there is absolutely
no school on this planet that if a child is wanting
to and ready, that wouldn't put them through
something. Like if they wanted to. Yeah. So I
can tell you now. It's how wonderful that the
school is not pressuring either. No, and I think
what's really lovely is when you find something
that kind of mirrors how you're doing it. So,
you know, they're very side by side with this
learning journey rather than, you know, telling
what to do. And that's a wonderful thing because
that's kind of how I'm doing this parenting journey
as well. So it's the offering, it's side by side
and it's curiosity, but it's certainly not, you
know, with any expectation to do something. And
having that communication, open communication
between parent and school, I can imagine is incredibly
important for your healing journey as well. Making
sure that you are invested and you know what's
happening, why it's happening, and that they
can even say that they're doing something similar
to you and that you know that must be really
helpful. And just getting positive emails back,
you know, and this isn't toxic positivity where,
you know, you're really in the dumps with everything
and send those emails and you'd be like, well,
we've had the worst week. I mean, this is genuine
stuff. And I often share, there's a presentation
I do and I often share the first school report
that we got. And, you know, a lot of it, you
know, a lot of it's emotional to read it because
it's. it's all strength -based and when you know
that about your child but no one else gets to
see it because the environment is so impactful
it's such a wonderful thing when it's actually
seen by other people somewhere else I suppose
that's the biggest that's the biggest thing I
think when other people see your child like that
totally because since birth you've maybe been
the only one that's fully understood them and
seen them for who they are and There's weight
in that too. There's weight in love and trauma,
isn't there? There's weight of it all. And yeah,
I can totally relate to that. I've had conversations
like that with parents of, you actually get it.
Like you understand their voice. You get it.
And also somebody to be able to celebrate the
small wins with. Because actually sometimes your
own support network or your own family don't
even really get it. Absolutely. And honestly,
we treasure those people. You know, we absolutely
treasure those people because it's so few and
far between that there's other people that get
to see our children just how we see them. And
it was funny, actually, because I've started
to talk a little bit about love now. And people
think that's a bit funny to talk about another
environment other than you as the parent showing
love to your child. But honestly, I see that
in that setting. I see. That that's not expected.
It actually makes me quite teary thinking that
that isn't a thing. I know. I call my class my
kids, like, for a reason. Yeah, and they'll know
that. They will absolutely know that. It makes
me quite teary thinking that, that a setting
would have a child, even if it's just for a year,
and not love them, just breaks my heart. but
I know you can feel it when it's there and you
know when it's not there yeah I'm a children
now right yeah and I think that's what we're
paid for like why are you in this job if you
aren't loving the children like surely that's
the fundamental it's like surely And I think
that that goes back to what we were saying earlier.
When it feels like you're kind of never meeting
that mark, you're always not quite good enough.
This is a very different basis, isn't it? Because
when it's based on love, you're invested in those
people, whatever. Yeah, and it is missing the
mark. I know you call yourself missing the mark,
but it is. It is missing the mark. It's missing
the whole point of this. You could be getting
all the levels and results in the world, but
if you're not loving the children, you've completely
missed the point. You really have. I mean, even
caseworkers, there should be some kind of love
for these families there, but especially as a
teacher. I just don't think there's any excuse.
No, and I think that these children have not
felt good enough. I mean, can you imagine being
a child who ends up not being in school with
their friends? Yeah, because no child wants that.
And I think there's this... rhetoric as well
of children families choosing to right students
choosing to not no all of them want to be there
why would you not want to be with your friends
and learning and thriving away from your family
and coming why would you not want that that isn't
a thing they're not choosing to they can't do
it i can't not won't is one of your things right
yeah one of your books that is exactly it it's
not that they won't do it They haven't been given
the environment or the tools or the system in
order to be able to access it. And them accessing
it might look very different as well. I think
that's a really important point that that will
look different. Same as our parenting will look
different. Absolutely. And inclusion doesn't
have to mean 100 % attendance. No. included in
every subject in every environment in everything
that that isn't what we mean by inclusion it
is belonging it is accepting and that could mean
one afternoon a week if it's not to benefit the
school it's to benefit the child i think that's
the difference isn't it is a reduced timetable
to benefit the family to benefit the child then
that's inclusion if it's school because they're
a bit distracting from the rest of the class
that's exclusion and yet it can look exactly
the same on paper that's a really important point
and i speak to families who say they've had you
know months and months and months of just driving
up to the school dragging this child in so they
can take the attendance at school and then off
they go i mean what's the point and what trauma
are you causing doing that and also that trauma
between breaking down the parent and charge relationship
Not just the school and the child. That's asking
the parent to lose trust, lose loyalty, you know,
huge breakdown of relationship. And then what
has the child got? If you haven't even got trust
with the parent and you feel like you're not
even being understood by your own parents, I
mean, that poor child, they really haven't got
anyone that then gets it. And that's just awful.
And I know that pressure comes from. the school
and then above that it comes from the local authority
and above that it comes from the government to
the school to the parent and that's why I talk
about this repair and restore when we're at home
that's often what we're having to do as well
it's not just you know repairing that child from
those experiences but it's also repairing our
relationship with our child because we have often
broken their trust and it's a really good point
that if you are in the position where you have
a school refuser or you know you're not at attending
school for whatever reason please please please
from a teacher from the bottom of my heart don't
even think about work for ages just focus on
building that relationship again that is enough
that actually is what's needed I think for both
the parents and the teachers when you are trying
to repair something you have to be really mindful
of sticking to your word and not breaking promises
because one of the thing I hear is that parents
will often tell me They'll have an agreement
with school that that child goes in for an hour
and then school will say to them, oh, they seem
fine. Don't worry. We'll keep them here all day.
That's broken it. And that child will remember
that you broke your promise. School broke their
promise. Parents broke their promise. When we're
doing this repairing, we must stick to that.
If we are parenting and we say we're popping
out, we're just going to the shop, I'll be 20
minutes. Just be 20 minutes. These are all really
important. commitments that we make to our child
to say i'm sticking to my word because when historically
those words have been broken that trust has been
broken we have to rebuild that by absolutely
sticking to that what we say what we say we mean
And even if you don't say, I promise, any statement
you give is a promise, especially with any anxious
child. They will be looking for that. They need
you to be concrete. And there is a huge weight
to that as parents and teachers and those kind
of advocates in your child's life. You can't
over -egg it though. You can't do too much of
that, particularly in the beginning. It's okay
to be really preemptive with this stuff and say,
You know, talking out loud, for example, is a
great way of doing it. Sort of talking out loud.
Oh, I'm just going into the kitchen to make a
sandwich. They can hear you, even in the house.
Because for those children where that attachment
has been very much broken, it's about making
that attachment again. Yeah. And you can't overdo
it. Micro promises, can't it? All throughout
the day. I'm going to do this and then I'm going
to do that and stick to it. And it could be tiny
little things that you always do. But it's a
little promise. And then gradually. Those promises
can build and build and it can be bigger and
bigger and bigger, can't it? Yeah, that's, it's
so true. And it's so important because so many
promises have been broken. And for the schools
that, yes, I know I could understand totally
what happened there. Oh, they're fine. They could
just stay. But we've broken that promise. And
what we're asking of that child is your everything,
because it probably gave everything to get through
that first hour, isn't enough. That's what we're
telling them. That's the narrative that we're
saying is, I know you've given me everything.
We want more from you. It just, that isn't okay.
Stop on the positive as well. Don't wait until
the children are forced to hurt themselves or
others or damage the environment in order to
actually listen to them. Because they will. If
they can't say it because they're masking or
they're non -speaking or whatever reason. then
they're going to show it in their bodies. And
what does that look like? It looks like, you
know, hurting behaviours. And we don't want to
force children to do that. We want to go slowly.
Yeah, we've had it before. I've had a couple
of school refusers in my class that have got
to the school gate, didn't want to get through,
didn't want to leave the car. It's a really big
one. So I've showed the timetable and I've really
reduced it. I've said, you just need to do these
two things and then you go home. So that could
have lasted 30 seconds. That could last half
days up to them, you know. And when we've got
to them, they've seemed fine. Oh, the TAs, they're
having their sack now. They seem fine. I've called
the parent. Oh, if they're okay. No, no, no,
no. Because then it won't work tomorrow. We've
lost them. Yeah. We have to take them home. And
there's quite a lot of, I have to take quite
a lot of confidence with that because I'm trying
to justify to my senior leadership team why we're
sending this perfectly happy child home. But
I knew that tomorrow, yes, they are fine. And
they probably did want to stay. that tomorrow
morning is going to be the same and then I can't
use that visual timetable again because they
it means nothing and I'll have to think of a
different strategy a different strategy different
strategy I have to stick to it well what also
that's doing is that's giving that child that
sense that they have some control over this often
children will be saying things it comes up a
lot they'll say things like I felt trapped um
and you know I felt like I couldn't leave and
actually to build up they've got to feel like
they can leave you know we often talk about sort
of saying things like we can leave when you want
to leave and when they say I want to leave now
cool we'll leave now even if we have to rejuggle
everything you know that is what we have to do
in the beginning and that's teaching the children
that then become adults exactly what we were
speaking about before of leaving a situation
that doesn't feel good to them we want them to
be able to do that we want them to leave a job
that is toxic we want them to be able to leave
a relationship that is toxic it's teaching them
those skills isn't it and it's saying We will
listen to you. If we've said something doesn't
feel good and it doesn't feel good and you advocate
for yourself, whether that's through speaking,
visual, whatever communication methods you use,
you will be heard. My God, how much that is just
teaching our children everything they need. And
how much would that immediately as well dissipate
that distress as well? Because we often think
that if we listen and validate that, then we're
compounding the issue, don't we? Oh, it'll get
worse. If I agree. If I agree when they say the
teacher, their new teacher's too shouty, then
they're never going to go and interact with that
teacher. But if actually you can do that, you
can say to them, that must be horrible when they
shout. Or talk about one of your experiences
that immediately lessens that thing for them,
doesn't it? Absolutely. It validates them. It's
believing them. And whether they're able to say,
I mean, I know I keep bringing it back to non
-speaking, but I think it's important that this
happens with all children. When your non -speaking
children are saying they don't like something.
um in whatever way they show believe them there
is a reason there's something happening there
if they're not if they're refusing to want to
go into the school building there is a reason
they are communicating something to you um it
could be easily fixed in the environment or whatever
but they are communicating things they believe
them um ultimately and yeah validate that communication
because there will be a reason like we said at
the start it's can't not won't it's not they
don't want to be there there will be a reason
yeah Thank you so much, Eliza. What current projects
are you working on? So the final, final, final
edits, I have to say this as someone who is ADHD
and autistic neurodivergent, there's always a
lot of mistakes in my work, grammatical. mistakes
so final final final edits have gone into my
publisher so we now have a publication date of
may for my follow -up to thumbsucker which is
very exciting so that's could try harder about
your teenage all about my teenage years it was
really hard to write i have to say i don't know
if it's because we're open for you it's very
brave to share your own experience like that
yeah it was much harder than i thought because
I suppose we're nearer to our teenage years.
I went to another person, a friend's book launch,
and they were talking about teenage years. And
apparently there's a reason we remember our teenage
years more is also because there's a lot of new
experiences that we're having as well. So we
kind of, they stick in our memory a lot more.
But it was a going to places I probably hadn't
gone to. So there's a kind of... protectiveness
I suppose that we all do around ourselves we
kind of tell the same stories and you know they
keep us safe don't they well this had to be a
kind of really deep dive into lifting the lid
if you like on those experiences. What pushed
you to want to share that story with the public
was it for your own benefit was it because you
feel like actually these are the stories that
need to be told what was that push to want to?
share that I always do it from a sort of self
-exploration first and foremost and for me I
find that medium is a way I can do it much more
than talking I mean I've done therapy for years
on and off but I still find that the writing
and the drawing is a way that I can formulate
a lot more than I can verbally but also I wanted
to suppose show You know, I'm kind of in that
next stage of perimenopause, menopause. And I'm
seeing, as I always see patterns in things, being
neurodivergent, I'm seeing women like me. And
I want to explore what that is before we are
what we are now. Why we are getting to this place
of suddenly wanting to lift the lid on things
and rewrite things and do it a different way
going forward. And I think... we are those women
that we were talking about earlier we were we
were those high achieving girls where that distress
and those difficulties were absolutely not seen
and led us on a very tricky path of perfectionism
and people pleasing and a and a big loss of self
doing that i always sort of stuck to because
i've always had Very strong interests, reading,
writing, drawing, art. I've always sort of said,
oh no, you know, I've got a really strong sense
of self. I kind of really held on to that. But
actually unpicking it, I've realised behind that,
it was very much about the validation of others
first and foremost over my own self. That became
more important. Absolutely. I really hope the
more, it is a conversation that we're having
now, isn't it? With females and with neurodivergence
that are realizing in adulthood, what, why has
been always the way that we've been. And we're
finally understanding how our brains work and
what that is, because actually we can mask so
much that we're even masking from our own selves.
You know, it's subconscious masking, I find,
which is just really interesting. And now we're
having that conversation now. there's books and
people talk about and social media is in our
pocket and we can learn this stuff about ourselves
and others and find that community in that way
i really i'm hopeful um that in generations to
come other women coming through can start that
journey a little bit earlier have less trauma
understand a little bit more about themselves
have advocates and mentors that get it and understand
and have lived that like you know all those kind
of things that we maybe didn't have I'm hopeful
that by you writing your books and having your
illustrations and other people sharing the same
that we can have that for young yeah the next
generation really I hope so and I hope that we
can get to a place where we can feel comfortable
to share difficult bits and I nearly said faults
then that's the wrong word but I mean to show
we make mistakes you know I think that there's
such a fear of showing mistakes and particularly
when we've got children that we need to parent
differently and we feel under a lot of scrutiny
with that all of that ramps it ramps up those
early experiences doesn't it and I think we just
need to kind of lift the lid on all of that stuff
and feel okay to do that but it's going to take
lots more people doing that and i think i i'm
still sort of struggling with the there's still
a kind of thing out there around neurodivergence
where things have you have to be wonderful brilliant
or gifted or something and i want to say what
if you're not what if you just want to be really
average and watch crappy telly and that's exactly
okay yeah it's so true i think it's in the media
isn't it that if autism is mentioned, it has
to be, they have to have a gift in something,
almost to be worthy of being seen or having the
story written about them. They kind of have to
be gifted. The Disney, the recent Disney film
with the girl using AAC, the high -tech AAC,
really frustrated me because she was an AAC user
and incredibly gifted and intelligent. And I
think, well, yeah, that's awesome for her. Like
she's found her voice. But my kids are worthy
too. And they have cognitive disabilities and
they can't do that. But they're still worthy
of a whole Disney film made about them. I felt
the same about the telepathy tapes. I don't know
if you've heard about the telepathy tapes. I
have, yeah. I felt the same about them. That's
wonderful for these kids that they're finding
a voice and being understood. But my kids deserve
a whole podcast about them too. And they can't
do that. They're just as worthy. So yeah, it's
that weird like... being I'm totally I'm really
playing with that at the moment as well of um
of that that feeling of being worthy of that
story is just yeah something I'm playing with
right now because I'm yeah incredibly passionate
that well it feels like it's other people saying
what is acceptable isn't it as well with that
you know because we've got a lot of sort of high
profile people now talking about their neurodivergence
and they all look really polished and really
brilliant and you're like well what about that
person I remember I worked with for a bit who
used to you know, I don't know, chew the sleeves
of their jumper or didn't actually talk to anyone.
You know, there's still an acceptable version
is what I'm trying to say of what that should
look like. And actually, I think we should just
accept anyone. for who they are and where they're
at and what they're doing it just stops there
doesn't it it reminds me I once had a visitor
in my class it was a supply teaching assistant
and I was showing them you know who the way got
in our class and they said to this one child
oh so what are they good at you know always like
there's a thing like and I was just completely
dumbfounded by this question I was like um well
they're really really great at finding shiny
paper and stimming it to particularly bit in
the light that they really enjoy like was what
I found and I Which is true. They're brilliant
at doing that. But I was a bit like, why is that
the question? Like, I just find that, I just
thought that was just, yeah, it really just took
me back. So yeah, what you were saying there
just reminds me of that. I'm like, I'm sure.
I don't know. Well, that's the other thing that
I've been working on. So that's out in May, that
book. But what I've been working on that's still
at proposer stage is I'm working on a children's
book because I met someone when I was doing my
work at Cambridge University and they were doing
their PhD about autonomy in children's books.
And they were talking about how obviously they're
written by adults. So there's always a hidden
agenda to that. And I get sent so many books
to read and review. And, you know, sometimes
there's children's books in that around kind
of neurodiversity. divergence and I have to say
that most of them I cannot I cannot bear them
because I can see this agenda that is you know
to get this well -behaved child to do what parents
want that is still that kind of Victorian narrative
but you know written in a jolly way and and they
really they bug me and um luckily I've worked
with Chelsea Luca and I'm doing her second book
which is much more um she gets it and she's on
the right page but there was a reason I wanted
to write my own children's book because I thought
I don't I don't like this icky feeling that these
children books give me you know and what are
we telling our children that we're reading that
to if that's our story of what neurodivergence
is yeah yeah so true yeah it's definitely something
I haven't worked out yet but I'm definitely playing
with this idea of of um yeah something to do
with well often it is it starts with that doesn't
it it starts with this sense of i've got this
sense of something's not quite right right and
i don't know what it is but i will do something
about it yeah at the moment it's just rants on
my instagram story but i'm sure it will end up
Thank you so much for joining me today, Eliza.
It's been an absolute joy talking to you. I resonate
so much with what you've said and I really hope
that listeners do as well. Where can people find
you if they wanted to find your books and illustrations,
just more information about what's to come? Yeah,
so I've got a website, missingthemark .co .uk
and you can just look me up. Just look up Eliza
Fricker or Missing the Mark and you'll find me
lurking about. and yeah definitely follow your
illustrations are fantastic highly shareable
and yeah i just every single one just makes me
smile or angry it just makes me feel something
which i i love that about your stuff um thank
you so much eliza have a good day