Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education
teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything
communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson
ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged
4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in
the field answering your questions and sharing
our knowledge and experience working alongside
our beautiful young people. Let's get started.
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today. Now to the episode. Hello everybody and
welcome to the Sensory Classroom podcast. My
name is Jordan and today I am joined by Sophie
from Sen Talk Tags. almost accidentally created
the most amazing communication products and we've
recently collaborated together on a product and
i am very excited to have her on podcast today
hello sophie hello hello i like that introduction
makes me seem more proper well you are i mean
on your introduction bio you sent to me you put
um a small sen business and actually It isn't
that small because it's absolutely blown up.
It's a new SEN business, but it's absolutely
blown up, hasn't it? I can't quite believe it.
Like if you'd have told me a few months ago,
I'd be where I am now. I'd be like. So when did
it start? Well, it started in February, March.
That's when I made the first set for Rex. And
then it's. Let's talk about that then. So let's
talk about your family because that wouldn't
help us understand where this. amazing business
has come from so yeah who are your children and
what does your family dynamic look like so I've
got Rex who is six who has been diagnosed with
autism and then they've got Rory who's two and
a half who is on the pathway the joyous pathway
that we're all dealing with and then I've also
got Tom my husband who is the biggest cheerleader
so yeah that's our little family and the dog
max who is training to be an assistance dog by
the way which is well we're trying but yeah so
lovely little family so rex and rory are autistic
what was life like before the business what was
what were you seeing in rex particularly where
you felt He needs something more. He needs some
kind of aid, some kind of communication. So I've
been using visuals with Rex all his life, really.
Very early on, kind of seven, eight, nine months,
we knew that there was something. different about
Rex and very quickly we had to start changing
and adapting our ways of communicating with him.
So I started laminating and I spent a long, long
period of our lives laminating and making visuals,
carrying around hundreds of communication aids
and supports. I would print lots of things for
him. Just a day out to see his auntie, we would
make visual communication. pages for him okay
so for things for things him to use to communicate
or for him for you to communicate with him so
he could understand like what was what was use
of those kind of visuals for everything really
so rex didn't really talk until he was he didn't
even try and talk until he was kind of three
and so really he likes he had meltdowns when
he didn't know what was going to happen so that
was a really big trigger for him when he was
little he wouldn't know what was coming next
and if it wasn't staying at home he was so uncomfortable
with it so I had to provide him with visuals
so he knew what was happening and it would be
weeks ahead so we might only be going we'd be
going to see his grandma but I'd have to provide
him with right so this is how a week is going
to look like and on that day this is going to
happen and that would help him so much because
it was I think the world was just too much for
him. And it was all... So we did use them for
communicating, but really the main thing for
Rex was knowing what was happening. It was kind
of like a social story to ease his anxiety so
he could anticipate and predict changes to routine
and what was going to happen. Yeah. Which is
amazing, isn't it? And actually... So autistic
children feel very anxious about what's going
to come. But also all children really are so
anxious about unknown and different changes to
their routine and decisions are made around them
and for them that they don't quite understand.
So visuals, I can imagine, were incredibly useful
to you at that point. Just they changed the game
for us. Like we were in such a place before I
really kind of got on board with making visuals
every day for him. We were in such a challenging
place where. It was just meltdown all the time.
And it was so hard. And it was like, what do
we do? What can we do to make this easier for
him and for us? And it did end up being visuals.
Also, baby sign as well. So that's been a big
one for us as well. And he still uses it today.
So lots of AAC, lots of alternative communication
methods. Yeah. Advanced speech that are... to
support him, his understanding of what's coming.
It maybe makes it more concrete because at the
same time it's tangible. You can actually feel
it and all of those things. So if that was working
so well, what was wrong? What need, I suppose,
weren't they meeting that you needed to make
them harder plastic, you know, 3D printed? What
was that transition? That I was making them all
the time. But I was having to replace them over
and over again. And it all started because I
was sat at this desk with a list of symbols that
I needed to reprint and relaminate for him. And
I had the printer. We had a little printer to
make mini figures for him because he likes dioramas
and making tiny little. yeah displays of little
people you already have a 3d printer you already
know how to use it well i yeah i knew i knew
how to download a file right but i then downloaded
the design software because i was sat here the
printer was going and i went maybe we could maybe
i could and that's when i made his because at
the time it was emotional communication that
was really challenging for us, especially when
we were out of the house. He would just, when
he was overwhelmed and regulation was out the
window, he couldn't verbalise anything. Language
was gone. So we were making a lot of emotion
symbols and finding ways for him to, without
the pressure of using his words, he could go,
that one. And yeah, so I designed a little square
with a little hook on it. put a face and at the
time we only had a single color printer so I
painted it I sat and hand painted this little
smiley face and this little sad face for him
and yeah that's where they were what was the
impact of that for him and you I suppose because
also he was already getting his needs met but
you were finding it overwhelming so what yeah
it was too much for me it was too much time for
me just constantly making his visuals he loved
them and it opened my eyes to the fact that I
think we're also used to using laminates. That's
just what we do. That's what you're told. You
know, you go, oh, well, you can print a laminate
and there you go. And we were so used to using
them. But then there was something tactile, something
that he could hold in his hand. And it has, you
know, it's raised. It's got some kind of sensory
feedback. I'm feeling one now. It's not rough.
It is very smooth. But there is a kind of texture
there. It's kind of fuzzy on your fingers, isn't
it? like the emotions yes can't tear it apart
because this is what i'm finding as well i'm
finding lots of my learners are sensory seekers
right um our children that often struggle with
communication also have all these sensory regulation
needs don't they it kind of goes hand in hand
especially in rooms like mine and homes like
yours so the children as they're using the symbols
They're not even realizing they're doing it,
but they're stimming with them. They're flapping
them. They're sucking them. They're biting them.
They're putting them apart. They're all of those
things. They're putting them behind the radiator.
They're getting locked. Throwing them across
the room. They're sticking them on the carpet
and losing all their velcro stick. You know,
all those things that teachers and parents, I'm
sure you're listening, can totally resonate with
that feeling. And how long it takes to replace
them. The one thing that drives me mad about
symbols is the separate symbols in comparison
to like a core board. is they just get lost all
the time and we are constantly having to remake
them. And in the meantime, the children have
lost their voice, haven't they? They've lost
all of those words whilst we're then replacing
them, which also isn't okay. No, no. And so we're
providing something that can give them that stimulation,
that sensory tactile feel while still giving
them their voice. Like Rex literally uses the
terminology, I'm sorry, mummy, I lost my voice
then. And he actually says that to me now. And
it's like, but when I've got things that he can
use, it doesn't matter because you can lose your
voice. I lose my voice all the time. I really
struggle sometimes to communicate how I'm feeling.
But if I was given something and it said, there
you go, you don't have, there's no pressure.
And I think that's the key. I really struggle
when people expect children to use language.
Put words to it. How are you? tell me tell me
when they're feeling dysregulated right yeah
that's the first thing to go that reasoning and
working it out is the first thing that gets shut
off yeah so having a visual there with options
might help yeah and if you can throw it it doesn't
get broken or bite it it doesn't get broken then
even better okay so that that definitely makes
me understand where it came from so emotions
symbols came first and that was just your son
So what was the transition like from making the
emotion tags for your son to having a fully fledged
business going on? Did you share it on like your
personal socials or something? No. So it was
at our local Senn group. I had them on my lanyard
and Rex was using them. And so at no point were
these a product. Right. I love that. No point.
Was this a business? This was not a let's make
a business. And, you know, it wasn't that. It
was literally I had them on my lanyard. And then
the lovely lady, Sharon, who runs the group,
said, what are those? And I showed her and then
it was like a little like a little everyone came
around. These are amazing. So I made them for
them all. And they all were like, yeah, you've
got something here. This is this isn't this isn't
just this is something. yeah this is needed this
is needed yeah and I kind of laughed it off and
said oh no it's I can't do that I can't put them
online that's you know no and I did because they
told me I should and I sold 30 in a week the
confirmation you needed to think yeah we need
to yeah this is something and then suddenly the
emails went and then I started making little
videos and yeah it just went very very quickly
you seem to come from nowhere like I remember
it I remember seeing those tags for the first
time and you creating videos saying like I accidentally
started a business and I could totally relate
to that because my business was absolutely accidentally
started as well yeah And again, just meeting
that need of like, oh, can you send me that?
Or can I have more information on this? I'm like,
oh, okay. You need this too, right? Oh, yeah,
I'm probably not the only one that needs that.
And it's that realisation of there's more than
just me out there or Rex out there that needs
this stuff. And what a lovely way to start a
business of meeting that need of a community
that you love so much. Yeah, and it's just me,
a mummy, helping. other families and i keep saying
it on my socials i keep saying it's so empowering
because i'm just a mummy i'm in a very neuro
you know neurodiverse household i'm living it
i'm in it and i'm helping other people that are
in it as well and it's yeah it's very powerful
yes very special powerful it is it's incredible
we've got an incredible community incredibly
supportive community and it is very empowering
i totally agree with that and it's really empowering
for I suppose let's talk about us working together
as well. I find it really empowering that within
this space of business women, that we're all
so supportive of each other. And I don't think
that happens in many communities, you know. Lots
of people would be quite competitive or like,
I don't know, there'd just be a vibe. And it
just isn't amongst all of these beautiful small
businesses in the community. I think because
maybe we've all got the same purpose. None of
us meant to start a business. We just... saw
a need in the community and we're going for it
and we're like boosting each other up i just
love it i love it it is i am amazed to be honest
at the community spirit of it all but i think
like most of us are either working in the sen
community or living the sen life and it's just
like we this is helping me so let me i want to
help you I think it's because we might not necessarily
get the support we need from elsewhere. And it
can feel quite lonely. And we're used to feeling
like, let's face it, we're all neurodivergent
ourselves. And I think we're used to feeling
ostracised. We know what it feels like to feel
all those things. And we're not outcasts in this
community. It's very much together. And there's
certainly space for all of us. Which brings me
on to our little collaboration, or not so little
collaboration. So this came out in September
and we sold 50 in the first two days. Is it 50
now? I'm so sorry. Well, it's 49 because I stole
this one. I'm going to be busy. And in two days,
two days after we released this, I asked for
another 100, didn't I? Yeah. Yeah, so this is
the now and export. Now, this is based on exactly
the same as your story, right? I was laminating
these. I've been laminating these for years.
I've been making them for years. And every single
term, at least, we have to make fresh ones because
they're ripped on the corners. They're torn.
They're bad because they're used. Ultimately,
I don't want fresh symbols. I want symbols that
look used. I want them to be used. But I don't
want them to be falling apart because I want
them to actually be useful. yeah so every 12
weeks i would pay my tas extra to make these
laminated now next for me and then that accidentally
became a product when people saw me wearing it
in my videos so my tas make these as a way of
me giving them uh extra ways they came up with
the idea yada yada yada but every 12 weeks we
were having to remake them now i saw your videos
and your products and i thought could work and
I messaged you and you were totally up for it
I was so pleased because is she too busy because
I know you're so busy with your own business
oh is she too busy to help me out and I know
you are so busy I'm so pleased that you jumped
on this well I am busy but I was just like no
I need to make that like I I can see how useful
it is. And I am passionate about getting into
schools with things like this. I think that they're
fantastic at home. And yeah, they really do work
very well at home. But in a school setting, you're
using them all the time. They are, like you say,
they're needing to be replaced. They are so highly,
I mean, I bet they get a bit manky in the corners.
They're so highly used. They get disgusting.
And I was just like. no this is somebody who
is found a product that's working for them but
i can make it a bit better we can make it last
yeah you absolutely i mean this will last years
and that's the difference you know rather than
buying it every 12 weeks well that's one thing
i didn't want my customers to have to keep buying
it so i used to send them digital copies so they
could make their own replacement But I also didn't
want them to be doing, having to be doing that.
So that's great that it will last ages. And yeah,
you buy it once and it just lasts forever. I'm
obsessed with it. I love it so much. I'm so pleased.
It took some designing. You did such a great
job. Bless you. I was so specific about the colors
and the design and everything. And it's perfect.
When it arrived, I looked like that. There's
a stack like that of... ones that didn't work
ones that didn't i had a problem with them snapping
in the middle or because of the different colors
because the different colors so i couldn't have
it one side green one side jelly because the
way the printer prints it would have made too
much what i call printer poo because it'd have
to every layer change the color so it would have
taken about 24 hours to print one so i had to
do it all one color but then the top layer different
but then it made a weak spot So you really challenged
my design skills, but we got there. I want to
say that about you, actually. Your products are
so high quality. You can really tell that you
are a send mum and you know how much these are
going to be used. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm so impressed
with the quality. Seriously, I'm so pleased that
we're doing this. And yeah, I suppose that leads
on to beautifully the collaboration between home
and school. Are lots of your customers parents
then rather than school -based staff? I would
say it's slowly shifting. Originally, I mean,
it's still mainly parents, but I've started to
get more education settings interested now. Quite
a lot of nursery and preschool interests, because
I think they use visuals for every child, not
necessarily neurodivergent children, because
like we said, every child learns through visuals.
They're budgeting for it already. It's not an
extra. Exactly. But I'm finding also that a lot
of parents are buying their sets and then going,
I'm going to put another order in for the teacher
and things like that. So it is starting that
people are kind of going, actually know her TA
wants one as well. So they're kind of like, it
is so interesting. I certainly have a view on
this. In your view, what are the benefits of
using the same system at home and at school?
Continuity. I think that children, especially
neurodivergent children. rely on structure and
things being the same so if they are learning
if that's your way of communicating if you're
using visuals to communicate if you suddenly
get a different visual at home and a different
visual at school then there's going to be it's
going to be hard I don't know what do you like
yeah I've always wondered if it's similar to
having to learn two languages and when you're
in dysregulation having to think right where
am I what language is understood here. A bit
like, you know, some children use mummy's language,
daddy's language, which actually in theory, the
theory and research is that actually that helps
communication if they have dual languages. However,
for our neurodivergent children, when they're
dysregulated, they lose all language, let alone
where they are in space and who they're with
and how they're going to talk. So they might
not be able to. know what language they need
to use in each setting or what word to use. So
I think we need to be seeing all visuals as languages.
So if you've got a language on your talking tablet
and you've got a different language on your visuals
and you've got a different language on your lanyard,
it can be really confusing for children because
they're having to, wait, well, that sad face,
those shapes like that look like a sad face.
But those shapes like that also mean sad. And
that one is so beautiful. I also like with my
experience with Rex, his eye for detail is ridiculous.
So if it's slightly the same symbol, but it's
slightly to the left of where it used to be,
he'll let you know. So it's that kind of even
the smallest change to your visuals, to your
symbols could mean. oh that's different oh i
don't like that and it's not that we can't provide
any change to routine for these children it's
just that in those moments where they need these
these this most actually the least change the
better because they're probably already feeling
anxious about a change to come anyway but at
least the have the support systems as secure
and concrete yeah yeah and i think the predictability
of it is is crucial because I think the world
overwhelmed if you're overwhelmed if it's all
so much it's you need to know what you're going
to see because if that what's in front of you
is the way that you communicate you tell you
express yourself if you don't have if it's suddenly
all completely alien to them then that's going
to be really hard to adjust and it's just going
to compound really for them yeah I feel the same
and I suppose that's the benefit I didn't even
think about of something lasting so long is that
it actually doesn't change like even the velcro
dots are in exactly the same place because we're
not having to remake them you know we might think
it's the same thing that we're showing them but
they might not see it as the same yeah so it
might not be secure in that they might have to
relearn what it means even though to us of course
it means that actually they might think as laterally
as as that and actually the same so I suppose
if you're a parent and you're finding that send
talk tags are helping at home then let your teacher
know write it in the home school book share it
on dojo or however you communicate with your
school and just you know share the information
and say have you seen this this is really helping
us at home or if you're a teacher and you're
finding that these are really helping at school
share it with parents be um yeah they can you
can uh all all get something that's the same
because If a system is working in one area, it's
more likely to be even more successful in everywhere
if everyone's saying the same thing, using the
same thing or using the same system. It's just
going to be so much easier to navigate for our
learners that already find the world so confusing.
It's hard. It's very hard. But yeah, let's get
send talk tags everywhere. yeah exactly and yeah
you're gonna have to uh upscale aren't you you're
gonna have to move out of your office and i've
got five printers already they're going 24 7
so we're gonna have to have i did have a carpenter
come and have a look to build some more racking
for me so yeah i reckon i can get two lots in
there but i might need a ladder To change the
filament. It's just so exciting, isn't it? And
it's certainly exciting for me because it means
all that time I was spending cutting, laminating,
recutting, because remember, we have to cut twice,
and printing and all of those things, all of
that time that I've spent can then be spent on
planning really amazing lessons, preparing really
fantastic sensory stories, writing sensory profiles
that meet their needs, you know. organizing team
around the child meetings that is really impactful
organizing staff training that's really impactful
all of those things fall to the wayside because
we're just doing the basics all the time yeah
and it's repetitive and it's you know your time
got time restraints as it is and especially like
even in the home setting you're you know you're
not necessarily going to have the time to sit
down and print out and like you say double cut
and all of this it reduces the need for that
um I think it's a huge barrier for parents as
well. You know, they don't have a laminator or
a printer or even a computer at home. Lots of
families don't. It's a huge barrier to then even
be able to start communication with your children
in any sense. I often hear that at home. I say,
oh, I'll just send you the PDF and you can print
it now. And they say, no, I can't. Can you make
it? And I'm like, oh, yeah, of course. Yeah.
So it stops that. You've already made. Yeah,
with everything's on our phone. So who has a
laptop anymore, really? Like, you know, the likelihood
of having a printer, having a laminator, having
ink. Having ink that's actually like not dried
out because you haven't printed. And then the
time on top of that. Yeah, no, I know. And I
think, you know, you can, I've found a lot that
people are, as you know, waiting long times to
see speech therapists and might be on waiting
lists for ages. And then often they. just send
you a pdf or you know and it's like or they just
send you one laminated visual card and it's that's
okay for that week but when you know if you can't
produce things like this yeah i just feel like
all of our communication systems that we put
in place have to be robust for our children yeah
children are very busy often sometimes very messy
they need to go to horse riding they need to
go to swimming i loved your post about your tags
in the swimming pool about um all yours with
your swimming um instructions on there i think
why not have all of the instructions in the swimming
pool no not it doesn't have to be about swimming
be all of them i think that is so exciting you
know all of our countdowns are so soggy and so
i mean gosh the amount of them that have been
in the swimming pool i couldn't even tell you
but yeah horse riding and out and about you want
them at the snack table you want them for lunch
you want but they just get messy you know and
um if they're wipeable and robust then and they
can be disinfected like we use a we use like
an alcohol spray to clean them up before they
go so and they're fine we've got a swim teacher
who i designed the swim flag for the fan for
They're in chlorinated water. They're fine. So
we've had, actually recently, I've had a nurse
get in touch, a paramedic, because these in a
medical setting could be massive because you
can disinfect them. Yeah, of course, you can't
have chlorinated symbols in with their liquids.
No. Yeah. So although there's so many places
where these, I think, will be useful, and especially
as places are kind of realising that they need
to be a bit more inclusive. Yeah. Or a lot more,
yeah. Yeah, I was trying to be polite. You were
being very polite. Places need to be a lot more
inclusive. And I think it's on a lot of people's
agendas that, you know, that they need these
resources to be accessible to people. you know,
big businesses and hospitals and places like
that don't want to have someone basically 24
hours laminating. And like you say, they can't.
Hopefully these. So look at your products that
you offer them. So you mentioned the emotion
symbols. We've mentioned the swimming fan. Not
got a set. We're going to do the nail next. Yes.
You've also got some like core word ones. You've
got like drink and... Yeah. So I use, call it
my action set. Okay. It's just like a stop. and
go one with an eat and drink yeah yeah just kind
of for really simple they're just your quick
kind of things you would need things you say
all the time yeah the things you need so there's
that one which is really popular actually but
then the big one the toilet one toilet yeah the
toilet set's been huge and I think I've been
selling these a lot not to send parents to just
people who are toilet training their children.
Yeah. Because they can be, like we say, can be
cleaned and disinfected and dropped down the
toilet, which I have a set that has been dropped
down the toilet and it's fine because we just
cleaned it up. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I love
this one. That's my favourite type of wall. Brilliant.
I mean, I saw that. I just loved it. Yeah, it's
such a great idea and it's often really tricky
for children to understand and navigate. You
know, learning to toilet, food time, stopping,
going, my turn, your turn. I know you've got
all my turn and wait symbols, which are fantastic.
They might have been stolen off of you. They're
fantastic. So they're, because they're also like
3D bridges to the heart. Yeah, we have a stop
and go. They're going to be backwards, aren't
they? Sorry. No, they're not actually. I couldn't
see them happening. again they're robust aren't
they whilst somebody's waiting for their turn
they can be fiddling with the weight symbol and
it doesn't matter whereas for mine they might
get torn and you have to keep remaking them every
time I love it Sophie you know I love your products
so much yeah and I'm so pleased to see that so
many people are finding you and buying from you
it's just it's just awesome It is amazing. I
want to see them in every household and every
school, honestly. I don't know if I've got enough
time for that at the moment. We're going to get
there. We'll get there. I have no doubt that
you will. I have no doubt. I have big plans.
If people are listening or watching at home,
where can they find more about you on social
media and your website? So I am on Instagram
and TikTok and Facebook on just send talk tags.
So S -E -N talk tags. And then my website is...
just you can just google send talk tags and I
pop up but yeah great branding for somebody that
didn't know what they were doing you've done
an amazing job and all of your branding and everything
is so great and your visuals are amazing and
I just think you've obviously got such a well
you always got such passion for it personally
yeah anyway but um you've also got such a great
eye for detail and yeah I'm excited to see what
this next year is going to look like for you
yeah I'm very excited I think you know we're
gonna we're gonna do big things you are i'm excited
to see thank you so much for joining me on the
podcast today