Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education
teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything
communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson
ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged
4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in
the field answering your questions and sharing
our knowledge and experience working alongside
our beautiful young people. Let's get started.
First of all, a message about our sponsor. Today's
sponsor is Octopus Energy. I've recently signed
up and have been totally won over by their mega
low rates and 15p per kilowatt buyback scheme
for any solar power we aren't using. In just
a few minutes, I'd put in all my details and
they'd do the switch from your current provider
for you. It could not be simpler. Don't take
it from me though, over 6 million homes have
made the sustainable switch. When you sign up
today using my code, we both get £50. It keeps
me creating this free content for you guys and
you get cheaper energy. Double win. Head to the
link in the description below to make the switch
today. Now to the episode. Hello everybody and
welcome to the Sensory Classroom podcast. My
name is Jordan and today I am joined by Podrig
from The OT Coach. He is a clinical psychologist
and occupational therapist and psychological
coach. and with over 14 years of experience supporting
teenagers and adults. Since 2011, Pordrick has
specialized in trauma through strength -based
approach and attachment, guiding clients to reclaim
meaning and purpose in their lives. I'm so excited
to talk about anxiety with Pordrick today. Hi,
welcome. Jordan, thank you so much for having
me. I'm delighted to be here. And what a lovely
introduction. Thank you. I'm so excited to talk
about the topic of anxiety today. feels like
i'm i don't know if you know but i'm in a specialist
um setting uh but attached to a mainstream school
and across the entire school from adults all
the way through down to nursery seems to be a
bubbling of anxiety um and it seems to be getting
more and more year on year i'm really keen to
talk about this today because i'm sure it's something
that everyone else is noticing too yeah look
it was predominantly I would have, I might continue
to work with teens and adults, but we're seeing
it younger and younger and younger that anxiety
is running through into primary school, into
as young as five, six, seven, eight, where the
levels of anxiety to attend school have got so
high that parents don't know what to do. They're
trying to support their child. They're trying
to do the right thing. And by encouraging and
come on, let's go. And we got this giving some
safety before and after. It's extremely hard
for families. They're really struggling, but
there is a wave of anxiety now. Jonathan Hyde
has a great book called The Anxious Generation,
and I think he's predominantly speaking about
it from a teen perspective, but I am absolutely
seeing it as young as five, six, seven, eight
coming into schools. It's a pandemic of it. Yeah,
and is that, we're talking about pandemic, is
that since the pandemic or was that even happening
before? For me, when I watched COVID come and
looked at the response of the families, And the
response of children. There's a lot of adults
that are extremely anxious since then. But if
you think of the capacity of a child trying to
imagine that physical touch or proximity could
kill somebody, and for them to try to process
that, that if I hold my grandmother's hand, she
could die or I could die. For us to say the words
out loud, to try and fathom and process that
as an adult, what's that experience like for
a child? So how long will it be before they can...
get over that or like i have a little girl and
i remember walking through markets with her and
the response to people towards her because at
that time they said small children are carriers
of was adults were some screaming out loud and
jumping out of the way as if i was carrying a
knife and i was carrying a child and they're
interpreting that like i am something is wrong
something internally what did i do and trying
to make it as lighthearted and support her around
that. But we will be seeing the aftermath of
that for many years to come. And there is, I
think, other elements that are in play. I think
when we're quote Jonathan Hyde, I think we're
often overprotective in the real world and underprotective
in the online world. As parents and caring parents,
we want to be there. We're reading loads on psychology.
We want to be the best parent and be there for
our child and for maybe people in their 30s,
40s and 50s. We had the right amount of neglect,
the right amount of our parents being far too
busy to care for us that helped us develop skills
in this space, that helped us become resilient
because we had to fall and there wasn't somebody
there to pick us up and put a band -aid on us.
We had to fall and wipe our knees and get back
up. And through that process, we developed skills
and we learned a lot about ourselves where I
think there's a lot of young people at the moment
that are missing that. And it's all out of love.
It's all out of parents just being amazing and
doing the right thing and caring and loving.
But yeah, I think from my experience anyway,
I think the right amount of neglect to develop
those skills. That's so interesting to hear you
say that. I'm not a parent myself, so I find
it really difficult to navigate. that and like
almost have an opinion on how people should bring
up their children but it's hard not to as a teacher
when year on year more children are coming through
i can't speak to my sister though she won't mind
me mentioning it she said her worst fear is her
children needing therapy uh in as adults because
of her parenting and my answer was of course
they will we all do that's a hell you know no
matter how gentle parent or strict parent or
whatever parent you are ultimately like Therapy
is good for all and we all need therapies. I
just think that's really interesting and it goes
perfectly well with what you're saying. It's
almost like this fear of doing it our parents'
way, but then it kind of goes way the other way
to then not giving children opportunities to
fail or to be bored or to navigate things on
their own. Fail, be bored, navigate things on
their own. They're beautiful points and I couldn't
agree more with the three of them. niece or nephew
when they're older and that's okay. That's a
beautiful thing. We should all be engaging in
it to deepen our understanding. Nobody's in this
life that survives unscathed of hardship and
heartache and sadness. It's just part of our
human experience. So there's loads in that. I
think boredom is a lovely point to start. I think
we fear boredom. feel like we're not meeting
their needs when they're bored. And it's around
celebrating boredom. And I wonder what comes
with boredom and creativity comes with boredom.
Magic happens with boredom. And this is what
I mean about the right level of neglect growing
up. Our parents weren't that invested into our
boredom when we were growing up. It was like,
get out, get out. We find something to do. We
don't care. Come back at seven o 'clock when
it's dinner. I just. So I think through that
process, we. We learned to sit with ourselves.
We learned to be uncomfortable. We learned a
lot. And I think when we're trying to fill those
times, we miss that skill. So a lot comes within
that. But for me, it's just parents wanting to
do the right thing. And that other component
about celebrating failure as well, that's so
important. We do fear it. We fear failure and
we sometimes build our children up to fear it
as well. It's just, it's a sign that you're trying,
you're in areas that are above your threshold
and you're pushing boundaries and sitting with
that is okay. There's loads of skills that come
with that, with failure, learning that I'm okay.
For me, when it comes to reducing anxiety symptoms,
I think what happens when we engage in talk therapy
is we can do so much. We can talk about their
experience. We can talk about how hard that is.
We can validate that. But I actually feel they
need to live. and have skills where they have
pushed themselves into certain areas and learned
that, okay, that didn't go well, but I'm okay.
I have a stream of evidence to say I'm in different
environments that do bring anxiety, and we can
manage that through working on the body, working
on some cognitive components as well. But it's
the stream of evidence from them trying things,
failing at things, and them saying, but I'm actually
okay. i'm fine like nothing bad happened but
they need that evidence without that evidence
they don't us telling them they'll be fine isn't
enough they need evidence to say that's true
so much sense is that the same for neurodivergent
children i mean gosh autism is such a huge umbrella
and i've worked with hundreds and hundreds of
autistic young people and children and young
adults and they're so different in so many ways
but one thing it seems that they all have in
common is this level of anxiety around certain
things and it looks different in every person
but it's kind of this that is what's that is
what the connector of autism from my experience
from what I've seen so is that the same is that
that they still need those kind of opportunities
to explore that work it out that nothing really
really bad happens or is it different it definitely
adds an area for more attention when there's
a diagnosis there of ADHD, autism. What I would
say is you're right about the anxiety. While
we have an occupational therapy, it's a mental
health occupational therapy service. We're open
to anyone who's struggling with their mental
health. I would say 90 % of the clients that
are coming through the door have a diagnosis
of autism. So they've heightened levels of anxiety
because they are hyper aware to their environment.
They feel so deeply. which is a beautiful thing,
but it's hard to switch that off sometimes. They
can experience the world in such an intense way.
They feel love, they experience touch, they experience
taste and smell in such a heightened way, but
so high sometimes that that causes distress.
So I think I'm always very cautious to say, you
know, get out there and just become more resilient
because that's not the reality. We have to put
adaptations in place, looking at their environments,
looking at their sensory systems, looking at
the occupation to make those adaptations. But
at the same front, I still think it's about...
creating a space where they can feel that they're
okay in those environments and rewrite that story.
Unfortunately, what anxiety does is it creates
this avoidant behavior. When you said avoiding,
whether that's avoiding school or avoiding going
out to friends, your world just becomes smaller
and smaller and smaller. And the only way to
open that up is to lean into that, making the
right amount of adaptations that things feel
a little bit uncomfortable, but I'm okay. I can
still cope. making those if we are making environments
that are i'm not gonna say perfect all the time
but where there's no level of distress or that's
it's an unrealistic environment it's just preparing
and building that awareness and empowerment that
they have the skills that they're going to be
okay if something maybe doesn't go as well yeah
i definitely see that it's interesting i kind
of battle with this actually in my classroom
to offer real world experiences because you know
the real world is full of telephone sounds and
you know all the kind of things that they don't
like and they're really fearful of and new foods
and all of those things whilst also on the other
hand wanting to create a safe enough environment
that their anxiety is so reduced that they can
then learn new skills and build friendships and
learn to communicate so i'm constantly battling
these two things of wanting to provide it all
but maybe not all at the same time it's a it's
a really good point and i think To have a neuroaffirmative
approach, we should be really looking at societal
changes. We should be looking at making sure
every environment meets the needs of our young
people. We need to be like really proactive in
advocating to make adaptations to whatever activity
they're doing because they deserve to have these
full opportunities to live the life that they
should be living. Unfortunately, the world isn't
there yet. And because of that, it's important
that we prepare them for when things... don't
go well and how can we support them not to stop
advocating for change but to support them that
change won't always be there and how do we manage
pre -going to environments that don't meet our
needs and then post when we come back i have
a young person in clinic yesterday they're in
adults now but they're still in um school secondary
school the amount of the amount of pressure that's
in their body to go into this environment it
just doesn't meet any of their sensory needs
But internally, they want to gain an education.
This is what they want. They want to feel, in
quotations, normal. They want to be with their
peers. They want opportunities to go to college.
And this is the path for them. So a lot of the
work that we're doing is priming and prepping
for an environment that isn't meeting their needs.
I am on the phone to the school regularly, offering
support and guidance from my clinical ends. but
aware that they have a classroom and they have
a system. It isn't an individual approach. They
have a school. They have a curriculum that they
have to teach. There's a lot of elements that
is up against them. It's not a lack of want on
their side. It might be a lack of resources or
a lack of whatever. They might not have the facilities.
So it's trying to meet that middle. But there's
no point in me waiting until the perfect environment
is ready for that person because they want to
obtain this goal. So it's that back and forth.
Exactly what you said. It's a push -pull all
the time. And for myself, it's an internal battle
for me wanting to prepare somebody to be as resilient
as they possibly can to cope with every environment
that's put upon them. But at the same time, wanting
to advocate for environmental changes to meet
the needs of the young person. So it is. Exactly
that. It's the difference of building resilience
and then being their safe space. And it's really
hard to balance the two. One thing that I found
really helpful is sensory stories, like through
the social stories kind of. perspective because
we can explore we can create a safe environment
it's predictable we do these often so the children
know that you know it's safe and they trust us
we've built trusting relationships but through
these sensory stories and through these social
stories we can explore new things but in that
safer way getting on a train the first time we
talk about trains i'm not going to take my class
onto a train but we might listen to the sound
of the train you might feel vibration might um
practice getting tickets and all of those things.
But in the safety of the classroom that they
know really well, they can leave at any time,
explore those things, explore those processes,
those smells, those sounds, those feelings. So
that in the real world, when they're out with
their parents or whatever, they could actually
go on a train and it won't be completely new
to them. They'd have smelt it before, felt it
before, heard the tannoy before, all of those
things. It will mean more. Do you have anything
else like that? We can, as parents and teachers,
put into our timetable of things to help better
prepare the children to feel less anxious for
these every day. environment supermarkets for
example is a classic one it's it's that's a great
example of what you gave as well and it is that
preparation it is that this is what the experience
might be like we might not be able to adapt everything
that we need for that but have a feel of what
this might be like what is your how is your body
responding and through those we learn a lot i
think it's very difficult to give Overall recommendations,
as you know, the individual needs from somebody
being so hypersensitive to something, to somebody
maybe having low registration, to somebody seeking
sensation. And for every individual, it is. But
knowing your child, knowing the things that cause
them discomfort, preparing their morning to be
as routined and as structured and meeting their
needs as best as possible before we enter these
environments. Having visuals like expressing
this is what's going to happen. Here are the
steps. Here's the time frame. If that is shopping,
this is what we're going to do. Here is the list.
Giving them a task to keep them occupied and
engaged in their environment. If it's the right
move for that young person, that they feel good,
that they feel empowered, that they're developing
a skill that they can be like, OK, this feels
really good. I know now as I'm getting through
my list, I am taking off a lot of these. I'm
getting closer to this stage. And I know how
long this process is going to take because my
mom has prepared me that this will be the cue
for five minutes. And I would say to often overestimate
the time, like if we're saying that we think
it's going to be 10 minutes in the shop. But
it could be 15 or 20, then say 20, 25, because
they are watching the clock. It's taking everything
in their body. And I would rather overestimate
the time of activity so that they are, if anything,
relieved when it's over a little bit earlier,
rather than them watching going, I have 10 minutes
in me. I can give you 10 minutes. Oh, no, we're
in here for 15. You said, you know. If it isn't
because of things that you don't have control
over, then that trust is gone, right? Next time
you say a time, it will mean nothing. It will
mean far less because they'll remember that last
time when it wasn't that. And that will only
breed more anxiety. I try and avoid times of
thought in my classroom. And I just say what's
next. Because then. I only have control over
that. I don't have control over the time. Just
as you said, there might be a cashier that's
missing or there's something might break or whatever.
Fire alarm might happen. You just don't know.
I try and say, this is finishing. This is next.
I have control over that. And then that's that.
Because I've seen it. I've tried to do things
a different way, like with timers and stuff.
And things sometimes just happen like a fire
alarm or something breaks and then they can't
have it. And then the trust to build back up
again takes so much longer than it does to break
it in the first place. Yeah, I try really hard
to any promises I make and giving, saying something's
next is a promise. Even if you don't say I promise,
it is a promise. Any promises you give to especially
anyone anxious, make sure that you can keep that
promise. agreed agreed as adults in their worlds
we are they look at us as we are responsible
for controlling everything so like they're looking
at us all the time you've got this so if something
goes wrong they're not looking at oh this happened
because of this they're like oh the trusted adult
has let me down it was actually your fault because
you're responsible for making sure the world
functions and keeps me safe and that's really
difficult for parents because parents do and
incredible if you have a neurodivergent young
person at home you are working so hard to make
sure their needs are met and something out of
that like something in a shopping center in a
school in a playground goes wrong they come back
and say you wronged me you you've let me down
you are the world in my eyes and they feel really
hurt by that may have nothing to do with them
but it's it's they seek that safety and with
safety then it comes like This is your responsibility.
You got this, have you? Because I'm struggling
here. So I'm looking at you to hold it all together.
So it's tough. Can we talk about the burden of
that? Can we hold that for a minute? I think
it's really important to acknowledge. We've got
lots of parents that listen to this podcast.
I think it's really important to acknowledge
the huge burden of being that safety for somebody.
Whether it's somebody you care for that's neurodivergent
or not, you know, somebody that's particularly
anxious, if you feel like you're their rock.
When they say rock, right, concrete, you can't
give an inch because you have to be solid for
them. That is such a huge weight to bear. I'm
interested in what's going on there and how we
can better protect ourselves if we find ourselves
in that position. Unfortunately, what I see with
teens and adults is sometimes the relationship
has been so broken down and not through a lack
of want of love or care, but it's that we could
say. black and white thinking or right or wrong
and you have wronged me and it can be really
difficult to rebuild that relationship and parents
are doing everything they are going above and
beyond what what a parent of a neurotypical child
would have to do they are working so hard so
it's really difficult i just think keeping conversations
open, looking for moments for connection and
in any way we can. And often it's just true play.
It's true moments of joy and just keeping that
alive just because we can switch into this carer
role or we can switch into this giving advice
role a lot. And we are telling somebody off saying
you shouldn't be doing this or this is how it
should be done. And we miss the opportunity for
play and connection. So always coming back to
that, finding moments of joy, finding moments
where they can just build that. that strong rapport
and connection with you and keep that love as
strong as the parent deserves it to be, as well
as the child. So let's come back to that for
teenagers then, because that's tricky with teenagers.
I mean, give me a four -year -old and I can play
cars, I can play animals, I can play dress up,
easy, easy peasy. I've really struggled to relate
to a teenager that doesn't want me to be in their
space and doesn't think I'm cool. How do you
start to build those connections? What does that
look like for a teacher or a parent trying to
build a relationship with a teenager? So I have
predominantly worked with teens and I work alongside
lots of therapists and they always say, oh my
God, teens, I can't cope. I just, I can't. And
for me, it's humor. If anything, I'm like slagging
them and giving them a bit of grief about something
and really not taking the core of our relationship
too seriously, except just kind of trying to
build that kindness and rapport. And it can be
slower. But as soon as they feel that space and
it feels less clinician or less authoritative
and less I'm telling you what to do and I'm more
interested in. a joyous connection humor fun
let's just give each other a little bit of crap
about something and then we build that connection
so people ask me like how do you connect and
i say i just give them a little bit of crap and
then that relationship is there and then you're
in a space where there's trust and then they
can feel like ah okay he sees me and i'm not
You're always mindful of this. If somebody comes
in completely low and distressed, it's not the
time to start making jokes. You support them,
you meet them where they're at. But it is everything
is humor and connection. When that is there,
there's some type of joint relationship. And
then when you have that and you build on that,
then you can sit with them and then be super
curious of what's going on for them. We rush
for an answer to meet our own need. I know what
to say and I know what to do. And this will fix
your problem. They've heard it all before. They
actually want to feel like someone's listening
to what they're saying, feeling that that experience
must be really hard. And always remember, while
they want to be adults, they are not. While they
might portray that they're adults, they are not.
And we see things in a very different lens. So
if they fight with their friend Shauna down the
street, and it might be something what we identify
as small, it's their whole world. So we need
to see it as that. This is something that is.
so detrimental, so serious that we can hone in
and say, oh, wow, that experience versus it'll
be fine. You're not even going to think about
this in six months. That's just not the approach.
So validating their experience, connecting with
them, and then the recommendations when they're
ready for it. But stay curious, stay curious
and stay trying to empower them to find the answers.
as well try to empower them to say i wonder what
like what would that look like and how could
if if that was different what would that feel
like and how could we make things differently
the empowerment is helping them design their
own life and often they will move in that direction
but just humor and joy and finding what's meaningful
and building on that connection like first foremost
but most people fear the teens they're like oh
i don't know what to do i don't know what to
say Yeah. I love that answer so much. Is there
anything that we should be learning from teenagers?
Is there anything that teenagers are particularly
good at that actually we forget in adulthood
and it would be a far better people if we remembered
something that teenagers are really good at?
It's a really good question. And I think I need.
time to think when I see teens come through the
door. Can I say what I would want to be more
of? I love that teenagers haven't decided choices
yet. I love how experimental they are. I love
that one month they like one music and then this,
like they're experimenting with who they are
and their identity. And I feel like that doesn't
have to stop. And yet it somehow does. We somehow
in, you know, Adelaide. 20s even so quite early
on kind of get set in our friendship groups our
clothing our music choices what we like and in
some ways that's really lovely because it's our
security and identity I feel like it means that
we miss out on the opportunity to find new things
new music new hobbies new friends and we're not
very good at finding new as adults I feel like
we lose that So one thing I like, and I live
in Cornwall and it's so smart here as people
that you end up with friends of all different
ages. So I have friends that are from 16 to like
retirement age. And one thing I really love about
hanging out with these young people is the opportunity
to just be transient and be fluid and be open
-minded to new ideas, new conversations. kind
of be a bit more spongy and flexible in that
way. I find that for myself has been really,
really useful. And I do agree as we... I don't
know why it happens in society, but we tend to
disconnect from play as we get older. And it
feels like it's not appropriate to. And having
children around helps us as adults to always
engage in play. My life is full of play. Not
only with my daughter, but with my work and with
my friends. And so I think not to lose that joy
that that play can give us. And I know we change
it to going running and cycling. And that's now
how we play. age appropriate but we can still
have fun and mess around and paint and be creative
and and be free flowing and that i was reflecting
on where i see the teens the things that we can
learn from teens i think the importance that
they put on friendships and those connections
we can lose as we become adults but it is their
world and The reality for us is we are here to
connect. We're here to be our authentic self
and we're here to connect with people. And we
can shift into, I would say, hyper -independence
when we become older. That I don't need anyone.
I'm good. I can do A, B, C and D. They need and
they are hungry for and they know when there's
good connections there. it becomes everything
to them. And I think we need to learn a little
bit like of the importance of what they're identifying.
And it's about the importance of human connection.
They know what intrinsically they needed to survive.
And I think we could do with remembering that.
Yeah, I completely agree. That's so true. Like
school and social dynamics are so up high on
the pedestal. what a teenager is isn't it and
um and I can totally relate to that feeling of
my social circles getting much smaller as I get
older and actually sometimes that's nice because
you feel saved and comfort in that yeah they're
much more maybe steady than teenage friendships
and relationships but but yeah I definitely feel
that draw for sure and I suppose then going back
to teenagers that are feeling that have lots
of experience trauma school -based trauma but
then aren't wanting to go to school that's a
huge loss isn't it yes it's like protecting them
from that school -based environment that maybe
isn't suited to them for whatever reason but
they're missing out on those social dynamics
which is so important for that age can we talk
about um either exclusion or and alongside school
refusal yeah so the language that i see come
through the door with the teenage teachers that
arrive to my clinic is There's a strong want
to go to school. So it's not that I don't want
to go. And then it's like, I can't. And for me,
working within complex trauma for this length
of time, prior to becoming an occupational therapist,
I worked as a social care worker for about eight
years, working with teenagers who've experienced
trauma and now residential homes. And I supported
them around that. So really interested in that
line of work and kind of moved into working with
occupational therapy and working with. general
anxiety and then depressive symptoms and heightened
levels of anxiety eating disorders so forth but
i see a common thread with them and their body
is responding before they can cognitively make
that decision so that the neuro their neuroception
in other words their body is saying i'm not safe
in this environment cognitively they know there's
a teacher there there's students there they're
like it's fine like people are like fine but
their body has said The demands that that environment
is going to put on me is above what I can physically
cope with. So when they go to the school gate,
they can't put that foot over. They know I'm
going to be okay. They've said the mantra, they've
done all of that, but they have a trauma response
where their body shuts down and all their body
is trying to do is keep them safe. So it's around
connecting their mind to their body as well and
allowing them to connect with their body and
allowing them to feel safe in different environments.
I would, the first question I ask when a teenager
comes in, the parents are like, how do we get
them to school? And when the teenager comes down,
I'm like, do you want to go to school? If you
don't want to go to school, I can't be another
adult to try and get you to something that you
don't want. I'm wasting your time and I'm wasting
your mom and dad's time. And they often, 90 %
of the time say, I really want to go back. I
just can't. So I'm like. Let's go. Let's see
how we can get there. And then that's where we
look at everything. We're like, what is their
lived experience of school? So why is that environment
overwhelming? Is it the bells ringing? Is it
having the transitions of changing rooms? Is
it not knowing who they're going to sit beside?
Is it I don't know where my locker is? Is it
I'm sitting at the back of the class and there's
so much noise going on here, I can't hear what's
going on? Is it I want to be loved and recognized
by everybody and I'm loved and recognized by
nobody and I'm lonely and isolated and I can't
cope with that anymore? So finding out specifically
what that young person needs and seeing what
adaptations we can make from an environmental
perspective and personal perspective. And then
again, really working with them on like building
them up to be the best version of themselves
so that they can be like as regulated as they
possibly can. So when they come to the door,
we're looking at environment and we're looking
at their occupation or their activity. The first
and foremost is I'm looking at them. Are you
eating good food? Are you eating something that's
going to make you feel good? Are you sleeping?
Are you moving your body? Are you doing something
that's meaningful for you? Do you have any good
connections? What are the relationships like
at home? If all of those things aren't going
well or one of those things aren't going well,
they have a negative knock on effect on everything
else. And in turn, they present at school fatigued,
upset, like hungry, overly energized or under
energized because of a lack of movement without
putting the building blocks in place. before
we go we're already at the back foot so it's
like really putting that investigating hat on
and saying like how is everything at home how
do we build up everything and then we move into
these adaptations there's no point in changing
anything without making sure that everything
is solid and we're the best version when we land
at the door Do you find that's well received
by schools? And how do you navigate that to try
and make sure that schools are alongside these
reasonable adjustments? I think most schools
are pretty good. And I'm trying to say it in
a politically correct way. Most schools are really
nice. Some don't really understand the neuroaffirmative
approach. For an example, I have a young person
in and many of the communications that I have
is just trying to help. teachers support this
young person in as respectful and as kind way
because i have my lens because i have i'm listening
to books and i've done all of like from an educational
perspective i'm immersed in this it's unfair
for me to assume that somebody else is going
to be so it's like here's all the knowledge here
is everything that i've learned here is some
evidence -based tools that is actually really
helpful and really new or affirmative so if you
have a teacher a teacher has maybe like we have
an education that this young person needs to
hear end of they need to come in they need to
sit down and they need to do well that's it and
that's maybe a limited approach or perspective
but it's reframing what we're looking at if i
have a young person that's attending school and
we're pushing for attendance and they're already
overflowing we need to pull back in attendance
and we need to celebrate reducing that we and
that's the difficult part because I think it's
all well -intended. Teachers are just saying,
oh my God, you're doing so well. Do you know
what? How about we push to stay a little bit
longer today? And how about like, I'll give you
a little KitKat at the end of the day, if you
can just stay for a full day. And I was like,
that KitKat, that one for KitKat, and throw them
over the edge. And not even the one for KitKat.
What they want is the approval and the recognition
that I'm doing enough. by you i want to see that
you can see that i'm trying really hard because
many of the neurodivergent young people that
come to the door they are high achievers they
want to be the best and they want to prove to
the world that they're worthy enough and when
we push that we're saying you're worthy enough
if you can cope in an environment that doesn't
meet your needs and that's not right and also
that attendance is more important to me than
your mental health or your well -being that's
the underlying message there isn't it absolutely
And then that breeds adults that are then workaholics
and people pleasers and faunas. And it also breeds
people that are in relationships that are faunas,
that puts them in really vulnerable positions.
And we don't want for our young people that we
love so much and want the best for. We want them
to be thriving, advocate for themselves, listen
to their bodies. I see adults, I mean, I have...
11 kids in my classroom I also have 14 teaching
assistants so it's really interesting watching
they're all rubbish at advocating for themselves
and their bodies and their needs and putting
their mental health first all of them are in
fact the kids are better my high support needs
non -speaking autistic children are far better
communicators and people that listen to their
body and advocate for themselves than my 14 teaching
assistants um just because of their upbringing
their environment their experiences and all of
those things So as a teacher navigating that,
I'm kind of using the same tactics for both.
Honestly, I'm like naming what I'm seeing. I'm
giving opportunities. I'm modeling what I would
want to see taking a full lunch break, you know,
using movement rates myself, you know, sharing
what happened at the weekend so that I can relate
to all of those things. Because as adults, how
can I expect my support team to be supportive
and co -regulating with my children? If they
aren't putting themselves first, they're dysregulated.
Their mind's somewhere else. They've not had
breakfast, for example. I think as adults in
that position, it has to start with us. Like
a bit like on the airplane, right? You put your
own mask on before the kids. It has to be that.
doesn't it and there's so much in that and i
couldn't agree more and like when we do have
somebody who is able to advocate for those needs
those skills translate into adults and i often
work with lots of adults that are struggling
in their own life because of the fawn response
it's if i express my own needs and i'm rejected
you know what does that make me feel like that
they don't love who i actually am and Therefore,
you know what, I'm just going to be quiet or
I'll shape myself to be the version that this
person needs me to be. And I would say highly
anxious people or neurodivergent people are masters
of that. They're masters at adapting and masking
who they are. to portray whatever version that
person needs. They are skilled. Highly anxious
people read rooms and traumatized young people
read rooms like I've never seen because they
need to. They need to come into a room and it's
not easy for them to walk through the room. So
they're looking around and they can feel people's
emotions, needs, wants, and they can really cleverly
adapt to whatever that needs be. And the phone
response is a really important one. A lot of
the training that I would do in schools, delivering
training, is I'm speaking about making sure we're
looking at that fawn response, that young person
that's coming and sitting on the front and they're
nodding and they're smiling and they're doing
everything when they are falling apart in the
inside. And even for parents to hear this and
foster families to hear this, the fawn response
makes things easy for us because it's like, great,
they're fine. Oh, they're brilliant. Should they
brought me up everything? They did everything.
But the long term of that behavior means none
of their needs actually get met. They're often
at risk of poor mental health, poor relationships,
because they're never able to advocate. So when
teens are fighting back with us and they're arguing
and they're saying, I'm not doing that, I'm not.
We need to reframe that they're learning a lot
about themselves and like, actually, this doesn't
feel right for me. And I'm safe enough with you.
I love you enough that I can fight with you over
this. And I know that our relationship is going
to be fine. Even if I storm out and I bang, that's
a beautiful thing. You've created a safe space
for that person to advocate their needs and express
themselves. It doesn't feel good at the time
because you're like, come on, just do as I say.
But actually what you're doing is you've created
somebody who can advocate for themselves. That's
wonderful. And we want to encourage that. What
we don't want to encourage is that fawning behavior
with the KitKat reward or whatever it is. We
don't want to encourage that kind of masking.
It's what we're asking them to do, right? We're
asking them to bottle it all up and get through
the day because that's what I'm pleased with
you. That's my expectation of you. And it's just
not a smart target. It's not realistic in any
way. They might be able to do it for a day, a
week, a month, but it's just unfair. And I suppose
what will happen there. If they do achieve that
day and get that kick out, well then what will
happen the next day? You're not then going to
let that go. The barrier is going to keep rising
until they fail. That's just not fair. When we
realise that's what we're doing, I feel like
it will quickly, I hope, quickly get unpicked
and fall apart and we have to realise, okay,
we need to be really realistic about what we're
asking for our students. and um set realistic
expectations of them and praise effort all effort
rather than the outcome agreed and it's that's
very well said and i and that's the reality it's
like how do we support you to like obtain an
education If we can think about it from that
component, if the core of what teachers, SNAs,
principals want for the students is that they're
going to sustain and obtain an education, how
do we meet that target? And if we keep pushing
for these higher targets, which they want to
achieve, they will burn out. And that is so common,
I would say. 80 % of the teens, maybe 90 % of
the teens that first come through the door of
the clinic are not in school. They haven't been
able, they've burnt out. And often that's actually
where their diagnosis comes, is they're like,
what's going on? Because they were the best of
the class. They played all of the sports. They
were incredible. If I said, we're going to go
here, they would say, yes, can't wait. They were...
the best. And you'd hear that sentence because
they had to be, they had to always turn up and
show up and do everything and do it to the highest
level to the point that their body just said,
you know what? I can't play this game anymore.
I'm gone. I'm done. And their bodies sign out.
It's not a lack of want. And always remember
in that component, we might have an idea that,
oh, they've a lack of motivation or they don't
want to. That has not been my experience. Motivation
is super high. Their bodies physically cannot
sustain environments that don't meet their needs.
It just can't. So yeah, it's just remembering
that behind the scenes, we might think we'll
encourage their motivation by giving them a KitKat
or rewards or praise or gold stars. They want
all of that. They want that recognition, but
it isn't a lack of motivation. It's just, it's
actually the environment that's not meeting their
needs. So what are the adaptations we can make
to the environment to suit their educational
needs? Absolutely. And on that topic of attendance,
it's such a, we could have a whole podcast on
just attendance and my feelings on that. Because
when I'm working with more disabled young people,
just getting them to school in the first case
through hospital appointments or whatever, regulation,
all those things is so challenging for parents.
So naturally they're going to have lower attendance
anyway. But also I feel like any kind of time
that you reward children, or the opposite of
that, for attendance, it just seems so unfair
because so often it is nothing to do with the
children. The children may want to go to school,
but they may be... They can't get to school for
whatever reason. Maybe it's a parent thing. Maybe
it's a finance thing. Maybe it's a time thing.
Maybe it's an organization thing. Maybe they're
just feeling really sick. Maybe they're getting
burnt out because when they are at school, they're
working so hard. Actually, they need that time
to respite and recuperate from the week before
again. It doesn't need sticker charts, reward
charts, public shame or public praise at all.
I feel like it needs good relationships with
parents, really open relationships with parents,
really strong relationships with the parents
and guardians, because ultimately that's when
attendance gets improved. It's nothing to do
with the children. Same for reading as well.
You know, these reading charts, this public praise
for reading has nothing to do with the children.
all to do with the parents understanding how
to do it when to do it the importance of it and
more training in that regard and i think there's
so much that happens in mainstream schools like
that where it's then put on the children to feel
shame for not doing that thing that has actually
nothing to do with them in any way it's such
a good point because we do put it on them if
they can't attend they've let themselves down
and you've done the wrong thing and that's why
i'm always cautious of the idea of like you know
encouraging resilience when it comes to being
neurodivergent like it's that often it is those
adaptations that need to be made if i'm working
with a family and there's an awful lot of stuff
going on at home and i Take that young person.
I'm doing individual therapeutic work. I can't
put them back in that home environment that doesn't
meet their needs and think that their well -being
is going to improve. It's the environment that
they're in and how they react to that is everything
from a school setting to a home setting. And
there's another lovely point that you made there.
I really think that collaborative piece with
teachers and school is so important that when
we are coming to the school, that we're keeping
those positive relationships going. Not only
are we modeling it for our kids, but when those
relationships are there, it becomes a really
positive working relationship. versus you need
to do, you have to do. We just know that language
doesn't work and we need to lead with empathy
on both sides from a parent perspective of the
limitations of what schools might have, that
we're meeting a teacher that is navigating 15,
20, 25, 30 students with varied needs, varied
learning styles, and they have a curriculum that
they have to deliver. That's who we're meeting.
So imagine us in that situation trying to navigate
30 when we're struggling with. like to navigate
our own so like how then do we meet them with
empathy and vice versa for the parents to say
or for the teachers to say okay this is the real
professional here they know the deep needs of
my child of their own child so let me hear what
they're saying just because my child might that
their child might sit in classroom and fawn and
say yes or no surgery bags full and then go home
and be completely dysregulated i need to hear
that as that's the truth so what adaptations
can i make to make their life a little bit easier
at home as well so it is and that positive relationship
isn't it for that meeting coming with an open
mind that this other person whether it's the
parent or the teacher or depending on which one
you are is believe them listen to what they're
actually saying listen to the subtext of what
they're actually saying and then meet together
as to try and find a resolution because otherwise
you have nothing if you're both pulling in different
directions both could be right both could work
but if you're both pulling in different directions
is not going to help Still the same about the
team around the child. I'm sure as an occupational
therapist, you work with big teams around certain
young people that you work with. And we've all
got our own targets. We've all got our own things
that we think are the most important. And they're
all right. But you can't do it all at once. This
poor child or parent often having to navigate
all of these different targets, all of these
different objectives and feelings on what's best
for them and themselves. It can be so hard to
navigate. So coming together as a team and deciding,
look, I know these things are all important,
but actually what are we focusing on this week,
this term? And letting it go, but letting your
ego go as the teacher, as the speech and language
therapist, or as the occupational therapist to
like, maybe your thing isn't actually the most
important right now. I couldn't agree more. And
absolutely leaving the ego at the door. And that
doesn't matter who you are sometimes. Walking
into a room, believing that you probably know
the least in the room is a beautiful place to
start because that's where learning happens.
And if we all did that, wouldn't that be so wonderful?
Absolutely. How quiet would rooms be? Everyone's
sitting listening. Somebody's going to say something
good here and it's not going to be me. I think
that's when real work happens is when we all
sit back and actually listen. And I love bringing
videos and photos of the children to meetings
like that because it just brings it back. Like,
look, we all have our own ideas, our own experience,
our own education. But actually, what does this
young person want? If they could speak, because
all of my young people can't speak. If they could
speak and advocate for themselves, what would
they be saying? Actually, they don't want to
do that, that and that. They just want to be
able to. ask for a tv program they want okay
well that's the target you know and it just brings
it back down to this young person advocating
for them and you can't argue with that really
because it's what they want yeah and we would
often say and the research reflects this it's
when we are all coming together and looking at
the client -centered goals When we're there differently
and we all have different goals, as you said,
we're all trying to work in a very different
way. But if we can collectively get the goal
that the client, the person, the student wants,
and then instead of using a multidisciplinary
approach where there's lots of different people,
it's an interdisciplinary approach. Okay, so
this is the goal. I actually think I can help
with this part. Okay, well, I can help with this
part. And the success rate is completely different.
In Ireland, we have a lot of multidisciplinary
approaches. So there's a lot of, there's a speech
and language, there's an OT, there's psychology,
and we're all working on our own individual.
And we miss the component of coming together
saying, who is this person? What do they need
and want? And what is my role to help them get
to that end goal? okay i can i can step in there
and do that and i think we need to we need to
look at that what is the goal we're looking for
and what's my role in supporting that process
not my goal for them i love that so much and
as teachers and parents we could definitely be
an advocate for that you know pulling it all
together reminding everybody that we're working
with for one thing And that's really great homework
for me, actually, and everybody else listening,
that if you're leading an EHCP meeting or an
IEP meeting or a team around the child meeting
this upcoming term, maybe that's your role. Maybe
your role isn't to come with new targets, but
it's just to collate it all and to put everybody
into one goal and all working for the same thing.
And I totally agree with you. Of course, that
would mean better results for our young people
that we all want. the best for. And the joy that
everyone's going to get in the process of doing
that. And that's when we can keep those positive
relationships going. We know from a work context,
we are going to work harder for the person we
adore and we connect with and we love. Like that's
parent, that's a colleague. We want to go above
and beyond what we can, above our role, when
we feel good about the interaction. So let's
keep it as optimistic and positive and let's
move further. The ultimate goal, which is what
we're all there for, that parents want to make
sure that their children have it. beautiful experience,
beautiful memories and are as independent and
feel good about themselves in this setting as
possible. Teachers want the same. They want the
same outcome. SNAs want the same. They want the
same outcome. People just, so we all know and
we all have a role to play. So let's collaborate
and work together in that space. And that was
a beautiful sentiment to finish our podcast today.
You have a workshop all about the stuff that
we've been talking about today. Do you want to
tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, so I have
a workshop coming up with Dr. Jennifer Cupbage
and we work together, we collaborate together
a lot. And what we're seeing, and we actually
are both, our waiting lists are closed. We don't
have the ability to support the parents that
we... that need the support so they can support
their teens. So we're seeing heightened levels
of anxiety. We're seeing self -harm, suicidal
ideation, eating disorders, mobile phone addictions.
We're seeing isolation. It's so heavy, some of
the cases here at the moment. So what we're doing
is we're doing a workshop on the 5th of October
in the Kingsley in Cork in Ireland. And it's
from 4pm to 7 .30. So it's just going to be all
around anxiety, but actually empowering. parents
and carers and professionals of what tools do
I need so I can support teens so that they can
maybe reduce screen time, live a more meaningful
life, get that social connection that they're
starving and craving. So we're going to talk
about lots and keep the space open so people
can ask questions. That's why it's the blend
that it is so that we can have that back and
forth. So yeah, it'd be great if anyone wants
to join. Yeah, join the party. I'll leave a link
down in the description below if that's okay.
And is the workshop format something that you
will want to do regularly? I would say it's commonly
what's asked. There's a lot of people around
Ireland that are saying, oh, you're coming to
the north of Ireland, could you do it here? It's
probably the most common topics that we talk
about in clinic. And then it's probably, it's
the one that's sought after. So we're debating
now, okay, how do we maybe record this, use webinars?
what does this look like but for now it's in
person in cork but i would say like i've done
similar ones to this regularly ad anxiety they're
they're the two ones that seem that people are
like i just need more information how do i support
families amazing thank you so much that's so
useful i yeah all the links uh in the description
to find out more about that and about hadro and
all of his website and all of the things will
be down below. Thank you so much for joining
me today. I have loved this conversation so much.
I've personally got a lot out of it, so I hope
everybody listening has too. I'm sure they have.
That's awesome. Thank you.