WEBVTT

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Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education

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teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything

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communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson

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ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged

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4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in

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the field answering your questions and sharing

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our knowledge and experience working alongside

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our beautiful young people. Let's get started.

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First of all, a message about our sponsor. Today's

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link in the description below to make the switch

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today. Now to the episode. Hello everybody and

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welcome to the Sensory Classroom podcast. My

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name is Jordan and today I am joined by Podrig

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from The OT Coach. He is a clinical psychologist

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and occupational therapist and psychological

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coach. and with over 14 years of experience supporting

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teenagers and adults. Since 2011, Pordrick has

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specialized in trauma through strength -based

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approach and attachment, guiding clients to reclaim

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meaning and purpose in their lives. I'm so excited

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to talk about anxiety with Pordrick today. Hi,

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welcome. Jordan, thank you so much for having

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me. I'm delighted to be here. And what a lovely

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introduction. Thank you. I'm so excited to talk

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about the topic of anxiety today. feels like

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i'm i don't know if you know but i'm in a specialist

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um setting uh but attached to a mainstream school

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and across the entire school from adults all

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the way through down to nursery seems to be a

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bubbling of anxiety um and it seems to be getting

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more and more year on year i'm really keen to

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talk about this today because i'm sure it's something

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that everyone else is noticing too yeah look

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it was predominantly I would have, I might continue

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to work with teens and adults, but we're seeing

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it younger and younger and younger that anxiety

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is running through into primary school, into

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as young as five, six, seven, eight, where the

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levels of anxiety to attend school have got so

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high that parents don't know what to do. They're

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trying to support their child. They're trying

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to do the right thing. And by encouraging and

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come on, let's go. And we got this giving some

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safety before and after. It's extremely hard

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for families. They're really struggling, but

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there is a wave of anxiety now. Jonathan Hyde

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has a great book called The Anxious Generation,

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and I think he's predominantly speaking about

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it from a teen perspective, but I am absolutely

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seeing it as young as five, six, seven, eight

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coming into schools. It's a pandemic of it. Yeah,

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and is that, we're talking about pandemic, is

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that since the pandemic or was that even happening

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before? For me, when I watched COVID come and

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looked at the response of the families, And the

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response of children. There's a lot of adults

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that are extremely anxious since then. But if

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you think of the capacity of a child trying to

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imagine that physical touch or proximity could

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kill somebody, and for them to try to process

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that, that if I hold my grandmother's hand, she

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could die or I could die. For us to say the words

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out loud, to try and fathom and process that

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as an adult, what's that experience like for

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a child? So how long will it be before they can...

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get over that or like i have a little girl and

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i remember walking through markets with her and

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the response to people towards her because at

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that time they said small children are carriers

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of was adults were some screaming out loud and

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jumping out of the way as if i was carrying a

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knife and i was carrying a child and they're

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interpreting that like i am something is wrong

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something internally what did i do and trying

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to make it as lighthearted and support her around

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that. But we will be seeing the aftermath of

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that for many years to come. And there is, I

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think, other elements that are in play. I think

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when we're quote Jonathan Hyde, I think we're

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often overprotective in the real world and underprotective

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in the online world. As parents and caring parents,

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we want to be there. We're reading loads on psychology.

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We want to be the best parent and be there for

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our child and for maybe people in their 30s,

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40s and 50s. We had the right amount of neglect,

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the right amount of our parents being far too

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busy to care for us that helped us develop skills

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in this space, that helped us become resilient

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because we had to fall and there wasn't somebody

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there to pick us up and put a band -aid on us.

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We had to fall and wipe our knees and get back

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up. And through that process, we developed skills

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and we learned a lot about ourselves where I

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think there's a lot of young people at the moment

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that are missing that. And it's all out of love.

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It's all out of parents just being amazing and

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doing the right thing and caring and loving.

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But yeah, I think from my experience anyway,

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I think the right amount of neglect to develop

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those skills. That's so interesting to hear you

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say that. I'm not a parent myself, so I find

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it really difficult to navigate. that and like

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almost have an opinion on how people should bring

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up their children but it's hard not to as a teacher

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when year on year more children are coming through

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i can't speak to my sister though she won't mind

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me mentioning it she said her worst fear is her

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children needing therapy uh in as adults because

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of her parenting and my answer was of course

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they will we all do that's a hell you know no

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matter how gentle parent or strict parent or

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whatever parent you are ultimately like Therapy

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is good for all and we all need therapies. I

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just think that's really interesting and it goes

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perfectly well with what you're saying. It's

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almost like this fear of doing it our parents'

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way, but then it kind of goes way the other way

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to then not giving children opportunities to

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fail or to be bored or to navigate things on

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their own. Fail, be bored, navigate things on

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their own. They're beautiful points and I couldn't

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agree more with the three of them. niece or nephew

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when they're older and that's okay. That's a

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beautiful thing. We should all be engaging in

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it to deepen our understanding. Nobody's in this

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life that survives unscathed of hardship and

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heartache and sadness. It's just part of our

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human experience. So there's loads in that. I

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think boredom is a lovely point to start. I think

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we fear boredom. feel like we're not meeting

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their needs when they're bored. And it's around

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celebrating boredom. And I wonder what comes

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with boredom and creativity comes with boredom.

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Magic happens with boredom. And this is what

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I mean about the right level of neglect growing

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up. Our parents weren't that invested into our

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boredom when we were growing up. It was like,

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get out, get out. We find something to do. We

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don't care. Come back at seven o 'clock when

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it's dinner. I just. So I think through that

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process, we. We learned to sit with ourselves.

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We learned to be uncomfortable. We learned a

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lot. And I think when we're trying to fill those

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times, we miss that skill. So a lot comes within

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that. But for me, it's just parents wanting to

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do the right thing. And that other component

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about celebrating failure as well, that's so

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important. We do fear it. We fear failure and

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we sometimes build our children up to fear it

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as well. It's just, it's a sign that you're trying,

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you're in areas that are above your threshold

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and you're pushing boundaries and sitting with

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that is okay. There's loads of skills that come

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with that, with failure, learning that I'm okay.

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For me, when it comes to reducing anxiety symptoms,

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I think what happens when we engage in talk therapy

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is we can do so much. We can talk about their

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experience. We can talk about how hard that is.

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We can validate that. But I actually feel they

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need to live. and have skills where they have

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pushed themselves into certain areas and learned

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that, okay, that didn't go well, but I'm okay.

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I have a stream of evidence to say I'm in different

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environments that do bring anxiety, and we can

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manage that through working on the body, working

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on some cognitive components as well. But it's

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the stream of evidence from them trying things,

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failing at things, and them saying, but I'm actually

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okay. i'm fine like nothing bad happened but

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they need that evidence without that evidence

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they don't us telling them they'll be fine isn't

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enough they need evidence to say that's true

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so much sense is that the same for neurodivergent

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children i mean gosh autism is such a huge umbrella

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and i've worked with hundreds and hundreds of

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autistic young people and children and young

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adults and they're so different in so many ways

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but one thing it seems that they all have in

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common is this level of anxiety around certain

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things and it looks different in every person

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but it's kind of this that is what's that is

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what the connector of autism from my experience

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from what I've seen so is that the same is that

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that they still need those kind of opportunities

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to explore that work it out that nothing really

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really bad happens or is it different it definitely

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adds an area for more attention when there's

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a diagnosis there of ADHD, autism. What I would

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say is you're right about the anxiety. While

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we have an occupational therapy, it's a mental

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health occupational therapy service. We're open

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to anyone who's struggling with their mental

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health. I would say 90 % of the clients that

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are coming through the door have a diagnosis

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of autism. So they've heightened levels of anxiety

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because they are hyper aware to their environment.

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They feel so deeply. which is a beautiful thing,

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but it's hard to switch that off sometimes. They

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can experience the world in such an intense way.

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They feel love, they experience touch, they experience

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taste and smell in such a heightened way, but

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so high sometimes that that causes distress.

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So I think I'm always very cautious to say, you

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know, get out there and just become more resilient

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because that's not the reality. We have to put

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adaptations in place, looking at their environments,

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looking at their sensory systems, looking at

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the occupation to make those adaptations. But

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at the same front, I still think it's about...

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creating a space where they can feel that they're

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okay in those environments and rewrite that story.

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Unfortunately, what anxiety does is it creates

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this avoidant behavior. When you said avoiding,

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whether that's avoiding school or avoiding going

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out to friends, your world just becomes smaller

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and smaller and smaller. And the only way to

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open that up is to lean into that, making the

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right amount of adaptations that things feel

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a little bit uncomfortable, but I'm okay. I can

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still cope. making those if we are making environments

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that are i'm not gonna say perfect all the time

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but where there's no level of distress or that's

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it's an unrealistic environment it's just preparing

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and building that awareness and empowerment that

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they have the skills that they're going to be

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okay if something maybe doesn't go as well yeah

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i definitely see that it's interesting i kind

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of battle with this actually in my classroom

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to offer real world experiences because you know

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the real world is full of telephone sounds and

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you know all the kind of things that they don't

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like and they're really fearful of and new foods

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and all of those things whilst also on the other

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hand wanting to create a safe enough environment

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that their anxiety is so reduced that they can

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then learn new skills and build friendships and

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learn to communicate so i'm constantly battling

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these two things of wanting to provide it all

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but maybe not all at the same time it's a it's

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a really good point and i think To have a neuroaffirmative

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approach, we should be really looking at societal

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changes. We should be looking at making sure

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every environment meets the needs of our young

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people. We need to be like really proactive in

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advocating to make adaptations to whatever activity

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they're doing because they deserve to have these

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full opportunities to live the life that they

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should be living. Unfortunately, the world isn't

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there yet. And because of that, it's important

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that we prepare them for when things... don't

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go well and how can we support them not to stop

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advocating for change but to support them that

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change won't always be there and how do we manage

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pre -going to environments that don't meet our

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needs and then post when we come back i have

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a young person in clinic yesterday they're in

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adults now but they're still in um school secondary

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school the amount of the amount of pressure that's

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in their body to go into this environment it

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just doesn't meet any of their sensory needs

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But internally, they want to gain an education.

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This is what they want. They want to feel, in

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quotations, normal. They want to be with their

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peers. They want opportunities to go to college.

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And this is the path for them. So a lot of the

00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:08.580
work that we're doing is priming and prepping

00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:10.460
for an environment that isn't meeting their needs.

00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:13.659
I am on the phone to the school regularly, offering

00:13:13.659 --> 00:13:16.309
support and guidance from my clinical ends. but

00:13:16.309 --> 00:13:18.730
aware that they have a classroom and they have

00:13:18.730 --> 00:13:21.230
a system. It isn't an individual approach. They

00:13:21.230 --> 00:13:23.509
have a school. They have a curriculum that they

00:13:23.509 --> 00:13:25.629
have to teach. There's a lot of elements that

00:13:25.629 --> 00:13:27.590
is up against them. It's not a lack of want on

00:13:27.590 --> 00:13:29.750
their side. It might be a lack of resources or

00:13:29.750 --> 00:13:32.809
a lack of whatever. They might not have the facilities.

00:13:33.049 --> 00:13:35.639
So it's trying to meet that middle. But there's

00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:37.940
no point in me waiting until the perfect environment

00:13:37.940 --> 00:13:40.200
is ready for that person because they want to

00:13:40.200 --> 00:13:42.659
obtain this goal. So it's that back and forth.

00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:44.759
Exactly what you said. It's a push -pull all

00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:48.720
the time. And for myself, it's an internal battle

00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:52.279
for me wanting to prepare somebody to be as resilient

00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:55.600
as they possibly can to cope with every environment

00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:59.299
that's put upon them. But at the same time, wanting

00:13:59.299 --> 00:14:01.740
to advocate for environmental changes to meet

00:14:01.740 --> 00:14:04.649
the needs of the young person. So it is. Exactly

00:14:04.649 --> 00:14:07.110
that. It's the difference of building resilience

00:14:07.110 --> 00:14:09.809
and then being their safe space. And it's really

00:14:09.809 --> 00:14:12.070
hard to balance the two. One thing that I found

00:14:12.070 --> 00:14:14.049
really helpful is sensory stories, like through

00:14:14.049 --> 00:14:16.179
the social stories kind of. perspective because

00:14:16.179 --> 00:14:18.679
we can explore we can create a safe environment

00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:20.980
it's predictable we do these often so the children

00:14:20.980 --> 00:14:23.679
know that you know it's safe and they trust us

00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:25.879
we've built trusting relationships but through

00:14:25.879 --> 00:14:27.720
these sensory stories and through these social

00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:30.519
stories we can explore new things but in that

00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:33.600
safer way getting on a train the first time we

00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:35.360
talk about trains i'm not going to take my class

00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:37.820
onto a train but we might listen to the sound

00:14:37.820 --> 00:14:40.940
of the train you might feel vibration might um

00:14:41.870 --> 00:14:43.909
practice getting tickets and all of those things.

00:14:43.929 --> 00:14:46.149
But in the safety of the classroom that they

00:14:46.149 --> 00:14:48.370
know really well, they can leave at any time,

00:14:48.490 --> 00:14:51.129
explore those things, explore those processes,

00:14:51.330 --> 00:14:54.490
those smells, those sounds, those feelings. So

00:14:54.490 --> 00:14:57.250
that in the real world, when they're out with

00:14:57.250 --> 00:14:59.830
their parents or whatever, they could actually

00:14:59.830 --> 00:15:01.690
go on a train and it won't be completely new

00:15:01.690 --> 00:15:03.429
to them. They'd have smelt it before, felt it

00:15:03.429 --> 00:15:05.529
before, heard the tannoy before, all of those

00:15:05.529 --> 00:15:08.070
things. It will mean more. Do you have anything

00:15:08.070 --> 00:15:11.490
else like that? We can, as parents and teachers,

00:15:11.610 --> 00:15:17.090
put into our timetable of things to help better

00:15:17.090 --> 00:15:20.029
prepare the children to feel less anxious for

00:15:20.029 --> 00:15:23.200
these every day. environment supermarkets for

00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:26.759
example is a classic one it's it's that's a great

00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:29.360
example of what you gave as well and it is that

00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:31.879
preparation it is that this is what the experience

00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:34.919
might be like we might not be able to adapt everything

00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:38.139
that we need for that but have a feel of what

00:15:38.139 --> 00:15:40.100
this might be like what is your how is your body

00:15:40.100 --> 00:15:43.379
responding and through those we learn a lot i

00:15:43.379 --> 00:15:46.230
think it's very difficult to give Overall recommendations,

00:15:46.289 --> 00:15:48.950
as you know, the individual needs from somebody

00:15:48.950 --> 00:15:51.169
being so hypersensitive to something, to somebody

00:15:51.169 --> 00:15:53.570
maybe having low registration, to somebody seeking

00:15:53.570 --> 00:15:57.269
sensation. And for every individual, it is. But

00:15:57.269 --> 00:15:59.850
knowing your child, knowing the things that cause

00:15:59.850 --> 00:16:02.610
them discomfort, preparing their morning to be

00:16:02.610 --> 00:16:04.850
as routined and as structured and meeting their

00:16:04.850 --> 00:16:07.470
needs as best as possible before we enter these

00:16:07.470 --> 00:16:10.450
environments. Having visuals like expressing

00:16:10.450 --> 00:16:12.250
this is what's going to happen. Here are the

00:16:12.250 --> 00:16:15.009
steps. Here's the time frame. If that is shopping,

00:16:15.110 --> 00:16:17.470
this is what we're going to do. Here is the list.

00:16:17.590 --> 00:16:20.470
Giving them a task to keep them occupied and

00:16:20.470 --> 00:16:22.799
engaged in their environment. If it's the right

00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:25.159
move for that young person, that they feel good,

00:16:25.220 --> 00:16:27.299
that they feel empowered, that they're developing

00:16:27.299 --> 00:16:29.419
a skill that they can be like, OK, this feels

00:16:29.419 --> 00:16:31.840
really good. I know now as I'm getting through

00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:34.539
my list, I am taking off a lot of these. I'm

00:16:34.539 --> 00:16:37.080
getting closer to this stage. And I know how

00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:39.460
long this process is going to take because my

00:16:39.460 --> 00:16:41.399
mom has prepared me that this will be the cue

00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:45.340
for five minutes. And I would say to often overestimate

00:16:45.340 --> 00:16:48.320
the time, like if we're saying that we think

00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:50.799
it's going to be 10 minutes in the shop. But

00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:54.419
it could be 15 or 20, then say 20, 25, because

00:16:54.419 --> 00:16:56.600
they are watching the clock. It's taking everything

00:16:56.600 --> 00:16:59.539
in their body. And I would rather overestimate

00:16:59.539 --> 00:17:02.259
the time of activity so that they are, if anything,

00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:04.099
relieved when it's over a little bit earlier,

00:17:04.220 --> 00:17:07.440
rather than them watching going, I have 10 minutes

00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:10.150
in me. I can give you 10 minutes. Oh, no, we're

00:17:10.150 --> 00:17:13.269
in here for 15. You said, you know. If it isn't

00:17:13.269 --> 00:17:15.170
because of things that you don't have control

00:17:15.170 --> 00:17:18.390
over, then that trust is gone, right? Next time

00:17:18.390 --> 00:17:20.329
you say a time, it will mean nothing. It will

00:17:20.329 --> 00:17:22.970
mean far less because they'll remember that last

00:17:22.970 --> 00:17:25.390
time when it wasn't that. And that will only

00:17:25.390 --> 00:17:29.049
breed more anxiety. I try and avoid times of

00:17:29.049 --> 00:17:31.490
thought in my classroom. And I just say what's

00:17:31.490 --> 00:17:34.619
next. Because then. I only have control over

00:17:34.619 --> 00:17:36.759
that. I don't have control over the time. Just

00:17:36.759 --> 00:17:39.440
as you said, there might be a cashier that's

00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:41.380
missing or there's something might break or whatever.

00:17:41.859 --> 00:17:44.319
Fire alarm might happen. You just don't know.

00:17:45.180 --> 00:17:49.220
I try and say, this is finishing. This is next.

00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:52.799
I have control over that. And then that's that.

00:17:53.460 --> 00:17:57.579
Because I've seen it. I've tried to do things

00:17:57.579 --> 00:17:59.579
a different way, like with timers and stuff.

00:18:00.349 --> 00:18:02.950
And things sometimes just happen like a fire

00:18:02.950 --> 00:18:05.630
alarm or something breaks and then they can't

00:18:05.630 --> 00:18:09.190
have it. And then the trust to build back up

00:18:09.190 --> 00:18:12.029
again takes so much longer than it does to break

00:18:12.029 --> 00:18:14.730
it in the first place. Yeah, I try really hard

00:18:14.730 --> 00:18:19.750
to any promises I make and giving, saying something's

00:18:19.750 --> 00:18:21.869
next is a promise. Even if you don't say I promise,

00:18:22.029 --> 00:18:25.630
it is a promise. Any promises you give to especially

00:18:25.630 --> 00:18:28.990
anyone anxious, make sure that you can keep that

00:18:28.990 --> 00:18:33.059
promise. agreed agreed as adults in their worlds

00:18:33.059 --> 00:18:35.880
we are they look at us as we are responsible

00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:38.559
for controlling everything so like they're looking

00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:40.759
at us all the time you've got this so if something

00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:43.420
goes wrong they're not looking at oh this happened

00:18:43.420 --> 00:18:45.519
because of this they're like oh the trusted adult

00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:48.279
has let me down it was actually your fault because

00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:50.480
you're responsible for making sure the world

00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:53.140
functions and keeps me safe and that's really

00:18:53.140 --> 00:18:56.259
difficult for parents because parents do and

00:18:56.559 --> 00:18:58.480
incredible if you have a neurodivergent young

00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:01.339
person at home you are working so hard to make

00:19:01.339 --> 00:19:03.660
sure their needs are met and something out of

00:19:03.660 --> 00:19:05.960
that like something in a shopping center in a

00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:10.119
school in a playground goes wrong they come back

00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:13.079
and say you wronged me you you've let me down

00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:16.319
you are the world in my eyes and they feel really

00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:18.519
hurt by that may have nothing to do with them

00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:21.859
but it's it's they seek that safety and with

00:19:21.859 --> 00:19:24.579
safety then it comes like This is your responsibility.

00:19:24.700 --> 00:19:26.779
You got this, have you? Because I'm struggling

00:19:26.779 --> 00:19:29.019
here. So I'm looking at you to hold it all together.

00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:31.420
So it's tough. Can we talk about the burden of

00:19:31.420 --> 00:19:33.440
that? Can we hold that for a minute? I think

00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:34.740
it's really important to acknowledge. We've got

00:19:34.740 --> 00:19:36.279
lots of parents that listen to this podcast.

00:19:36.420 --> 00:19:37.400
I think it's really important to acknowledge

00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:41.680
the huge burden of being that safety for somebody.

00:19:42.700 --> 00:19:44.980
Whether it's somebody you care for that's neurodivergent

00:19:44.980 --> 00:19:46.720
or not, you know, somebody that's particularly

00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:48.960
anxious, if you feel like you're their rock.

00:19:49.470 --> 00:19:51.730
When they say rock, right, concrete, you can't

00:19:51.730 --> 00:19:55.049
give an inch because you have to be solid for

00:19:55.049 --> 00:19:58.630
them. That is such a huge weight to bear. I'm

00:19:58.630 --> 00:20:01.029
interested in what's going on there and how we

00:20:01.029 --> 00:20:03.869
can better protect ourselves if we find ourselves

00:20:03.869 --> 00:20:07.210
in that position. Unfortunately, what I see with

00:20:07.210 --> 00:20:09.210
teens and adults is sometimes the relationship

00:20:09.210 --> 00:20:14.150
has been so broken down and not through a lack

00:20:14.150 --> 00:20:16.910
of want of love or care, but it's that we could

00:20:16.910 --> 00:20:19.420
say. black and white thinking or right or wrong

00:20:19.420 --> 00:20:21.339
and you have wronged me and it can be really

00:20:21.339 --> 00:20:23.720
difficult to rebuild that relationship and parents

00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:26.799
are doing everything they are going above and

00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:30.500
beyond what what a parent of a neurotypical child

00:20:30.500 --> 00:20:32.759
would have to do they are working so hard so

00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:35.640
it's really difficult i just think keeping conversations

00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:38.319
open, looking for moments for connection and

00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:41.019
in any way we can. And often it's just true play.

00:20:41.140 --> 00:20:43.779
It's true moments of joy and just keeping that

00:20:43.779 --> 00:20:46.900
alive just because we can switch into this carer

00:20:46.900 --> 00:20:49.339
role or we can switch into this giving advice

00:20:49.339 --> 00:20:52.940
role a lot. And we are telling somebody off saying

00:20:52.940 --> 00:20:54.539
you shouldn't be doing this or this is how it

00:20:54.539 --> 00:20:56.799
should be done. And we miss the opportunity for

00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:59.599
play and connection. So always coming back to

00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:01.960
that, finding moments of joy, finding moments

00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:05.230
where they can just build that. that strong rapport

00:21:05.230 --> 00:21:08.329
and connection with you and keep that love as

00:21:08.329 --> 00:21:10.970
strong as the parent deserves it to be, as well

00:21:10.970 --> 00:21:13.049
as the child. So let's come back to that for

00:21:13.049 --> 00:21:15.250
teenagers then, because that's tricky with teenagers.

00:21:15.430 --> 00:21:18.250
I mean, give me a four -year -old and I can play

00:21:18.250 --> 00:21:21.349
cars, I can play animals, I can play dress up,

00:21:21.430 --> 00:21:26.009
easy, easy peasy. I've really struggled to relate

00:21:26.009 --> 00:21:28.269
to a teenager that doesn't want me to be in their

00:21:28.269 --> 00:21:32.619
space and doesn't think I'm cool. How do you

00:21:32.619 --> 00:21:34.500
start to build those connections? What does that

00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:38.660
look like for a teacher or a parent trying to

00:21:38.660 --> 00:21:41.460
build a relationship with a teenager? So I have

00:21:41.460 --> 00:21:44.079
predominantly worked with teens and I work alongside

00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:46.400
lots of therapists and they always say, oh my

00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:49.799
God, teens, I can't cope. I just, I can't. And

00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:54.079
for me, it's humor. If anything, I'm like slagging

00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:56.519
them and giving them a bit of grief about something

00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:01.000
and really not taking the core of our relationship

00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:03.200
too seriously, except just kind of trying to

00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:06.059
build that kindness and rapport. And it can be

00:22:06.059 --> 00:22:09.680
slower. But as soon as they feel that space and

00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:13.500
it feels less clinician or less authoritative

00:22:13.500 --> 00:22:16.319
and less I'm telling you what to do and I'm more

00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:20.680
interested in. a joyous connection humor fun

00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:23.559
let's just give each other a little bit of crap

00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:25.819
about something and then we build that connection

00:22:25.819 --> 00:22:27.900
so people ask me like how do you connect and

00:22:27.900 --> 00:22:29.500
i say i just give them a little bit of crap and

00:22:29.500 --> 00:22:33.480
then that relationship is there and then you're

00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:35.180
in a space where there's trust and then they

00:22:35.180 --> 00:22:38.819
can feel like ah okay he sees me and i'm not

00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:41.220
You're always mindful of this. If somebody comes

00:22:41.220 --> 00:22:43.819
in completely low and distressed, it's not the

00:22:43.819 --> 00:22:45.619
time to start making jokes. You support them,

00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:47.859
you meet them where they're at. But it is everything

00:22:47.859 --> 00:22:50.240
is humor and connection. When that is there,

00:22:50.339 --> 00:22:53.720
there's some type of joint relationship. And

00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:55.460
then when you have that and you build on that,

00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:57.900
then you can sit with them and then be super

00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:00.819
curious of what's going on for them. We rush

00:23:00.819 --> 00:23:03.680
for an answer to meet our own need. I know what

00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:06.099
to say and I know what to do. And this will fix

00:23:06.099 --> 00:23:08.819
your problem. They've heard it all before. They

00:23:08.819 --> 00:23:11.160
actually want to feel like someone's listening

00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:13.039
to what they're saying, feeling that that experience

00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:16.339
must be really hard. And always remember, while

00:23:16.339 --> 00:23:19.859
they want to be adults, they are not. While they

00:23:19.859 --> 00:23:22.380
might portray that they're adults, they are not.

00:23:22.539 --> 00:23:25.880
And we see things in a very different lens. So

00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:29.059
if they fight with their friend Shauna down the

00:23:29.059 --> 00:23:31.680
street, and it might be something what we identify

00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:34.619
as small, it's their whole world. So we need

00:23:34.619 --> 00:23:37.039
to see it as that. This is something that is.

00:23:37.670 --> 00:23:41.289
so detrimental, so serious that we can hone in

00:23:41.289 --> 00:23:44.329
and say, oh, wow, that experience versus it'll

00:23:44.329 --> 00:23:45.950
be fine. You're not even going to think about

00:23:45.950 --> 00:23:47.990
this in six months. That's just not the approach.

00:23:48.049 --> 00:23:50.950
So validating their experience, connecting with

00:23:50.950 --> 00:23:53.670
them, and then the recommendations when they're

00:23:53.670 --> 00:23:56.529
ready for it. But stay curious, stay curious

00:23:56.529 --> 00:23:59.410
and stay trying to empower them to find the answers.

00:23:59.900 --> 00:24:02.460
as well try to empower them to say i wonder what

00:24:02.460 --> 00:24:04.700
like what would that look like and how could

00:24:04.700 --> 00:24:08.079
if if that was different what would that feel

00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:10.180
like and how could we make things differently

00:24:10.180 --> 00:24:12.920
the empowerment is helping them design their

00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:15.640
own life and often they will move in that direction

00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:19.700
but just humor and joy and finding what's meaningful

00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:23.960
and building on that connection like first foremost

00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:26.539
but most people fear the teens they're like oh

00:24:26.539 --> 00:24:28.039
i don't know what to do i don't know what to

00:24:28.039 --> 00:24:31.569
say Yeah. I love that answer so much. Is there

00:24:31.569 --> 00:24:34.609
anything that we should be learning from teenagers?

00:24:34.789 --> 00:24:36.630
Is there anything that teenagers are particularly

00:24:36.630 --> 00:24:38.730
good at that actually we forget in adulthood

00:24:38.730 --> 00:24:43.069
and it would be a far better people if we remembered

00:24:43.069 --> 00:24:45.210
something that teenagers are really good at?

00:24:45.789 --> 00:24:48.109
It's a really good question. And I think I need.

00:24:48.970 --> 00:24:51.549
time to think when I see teens come through the

00:24:51.549 --> 00:24:56.869
door. Can I say what I would want to be more

00:24:56.869 --> 00:24:59.950
of? I love that teenagers haven't decided choices

00:24:59.950 --> 00:25:03.750
yet. I love how experimental they are. I love

00:25:03.750 --> 00:25:07.349
that one month they like one music and then this,

00:25:07.349 --> 00:25:09.410
like they're experimenting with who they are

00:25:09.410 --> 00:25:11.289
and their identity. And I feel like that doesn't

00:25:11.289 --> 00:25:15.309
have to stop. And yet it somehow does. We somehow

00:25:15.309 --> 00:25:18.900
in, you know, Adelaide. 20s even so quite early

00:25:18.900 --> 00:25:24.019
on kind of get set in our friendship groups our

00:25:24.019 --> 00:25:27.220
clothing our music choices what we like and in

00:25:27.220 --> 00:25:29.140
some ways that's really lovely because it's our

00:25:29.140 --> 00:25:32.420
security and identity I feel like it means that

00:25:32.420 --> 00:25:35.559
we miss out on the opportunity to find new things

00:25:35.559 --> 00:25:39.299
new music new hobbies new friends and we're not

00:25:39.299 --> 00:25:42.640
very good at finding new as adults I feel like

00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:46.849
we lose that So one thing I like, and I live

00:25:46.849 --> 00:25:50.150
in Cornwall and it's so smart here as people

00:25:50.150 --> 00:25:51.769
that you end up with friends of all different

00:25:51.769 --> 00:25:54.009
ages. So I have friends that are from 16 to like

00:25:54.009 --> 00:25:57.289
retirement age. And one thing I really love about

00:25:57.289 --> 00:26:00.950
hanging out with these young people is the opportunity

00:26:00.950 --> 00:26:07.210
to just be transient and be fluid and be open

00:26:07.210 --> 00:26:11.880
-minded to new ideas, new conversations. kind

00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:14.140
of be a bit more spongy and flexible in that

00:26:14.140 --> 00:26:17.940
way. I find that for myself has been really,

00:26:17.980 --> 00:26:21.920
really useful. And I do agree as we... I don't

00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:24.700
know why it happens in society, but we tend to

00:26:24.700 --> 00:26:27.000
disconnect from play as we get older. And it

00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:30.039
feels like it's not appropriate to. And having

00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:32.839
children around helps us as adults to always

00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:35.680
engage in play. My life is full of play. Not

00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:37.519
only with my daughter, but with my work and with

00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:40.960
my friends. And so I think not to lose that joy

00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:43.900
that that play can give us. And I know we change

00:26:43.900 --> 00:26:46.039
it to going running and cycling. And that's now

00:26:46.039 --> 00:26:49.119
how we play. age appropriate but we can still

00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:51.900
have fun and mess around and paint and be creative

00:26:51.900 --> 00:26:54.920
and and be free flowing and that i was reflecting

00:26:54.920 --> 00:26:58.819
on where i see the teens the things that we can

00:26:58.819 --> 00:27:01.380
learn from teens i think the importance that

00:27:01.380 --> 00:27:04.000
they put on friendships and those connections

00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:07.259
we can lose as we become adults but it is their

00:27:07.259 --> 00:27:10.940
world and The reality for us is we are here to

00:27:10.940 --> 00:27:12.660
connect. We're here to be our authentic self

00:27:12.660 --> 00:27:14.680
and we're here to connect with people. And we

00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:19.160
can shift into, I would say, hyper -independence

00:27:19.160 --> 00:27:21.180
when we become older. That I don't need anyone.

00:27:21.299 --> 00:27:25.160
I'm good. I can do A, B, C and D. They need and

00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:27.599
they are hungry for and they know when there's

00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:30.259
good connections there. it becomes everything

00:27:30.259 --> 00:27:32.460
to them. And I think we need to learn a little

00:27:32.460 --> 00:27:35.019
bit like of the importance of what they're identifying.

00:27:35.140 --> 00:27:37.299
And it's about the importance of human connection.

00:27:37.460 --> 00:27:40.039
They know what intrinsically they needed to survive.

00:27:40.279 --> 00:27:42.519
And I think we could do with remembering that.

00:27:43.099 --> 00:27:45.660
Yeah, I completely agree. That's so true. Like

00:27:45.660 --> 00:27:50.019
school and social dynamics are so up high on

00:27:50.019 --> 00:27:53.019
the pedestal. what a teenager is isn't it and

00:27:53.019 --> 00:27:56.200
um and I can totally relate to that feeling of

00:27:56.200 --> 00:27:58.359
my social circles getting much smaller as I get

00:27:58.359 --> 00:28:01.400
older and actually sometimes that's nice because

00:28:01.400 --> 00:28:04.079
you feel saved and comfort in that yeah they're

00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:06.279
much more maybe steady than teenage friendships

00:28:06.279 --> 00:28:09.880
and relationships but but yeah I definitely feel

00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:12.519
that draw for sure and I suppose then going back

00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:15.660
to teenagers that are feeling that have lots

00:28:15.660 --> 00:28:18.920
of experience trauma school -based trauma but

00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:21.140
then aren't wanting to go to school that's a

00:28:21.140 --> 00:28:24.259
huge loss isn't it yes it's like protecting them

00:28:24.259 --> 00:28:26.279
from that school -based environment that maybe

00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:29.319
isn't suited to them for whatever reason but

00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:30.779
they're missing out on those social dynamics

00:28:30.779 --> 00:28:33.099
which is so important for that age can we talk

00:28:33.099 --> 00:28:38.599
about um either exclusion or and alongside school

00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:42.880
refusal yeah so the language that i see come

00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:44.799
through the door with the teenage teachers that

00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:47.880
arrive to my clinic is There's a strong want

00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:50.700
to go to school. So it's not that I don't want

00:28:50.700 --> 00:28:53.460
to go. And then it's like, I can't. And for me,

00:28:53.599 --> 00:28:56.680
working within complex trauma for this length

00:28:56.680 --> 00:28:59.319
of time, prior to becoming an occupational therapist,

00:28:59.420 --> 00:29:02.180
I worked as a social care worker for about eight

00:29:02.180 --> 00:29:04.380
years, working with teenagers who've experienced

00:29:04.380 --> 00:29:06.720
trauma and now residential homes. And I supported

00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:08.940
them around that. So really interested in that

00:29:08.940 --> 00:29:12.779
line of work and kind of moved into working with

00:29:12.779 --> 00:29:15.549
occupational therapy and working with. general

00:29:15.549 --> 00:29:18.349
anxiety and then depressive symptoms and heightened

00:29:18.349 --> 00:29:21.230
levels of anxiety eating disorders so forth but

00:29:21.230 --> 00:29:24.130
i see a common thread with them and their body

00:29:24.130 --> 00:29:26.309
is responding before they can cognitively make

00:29:26.309 --> 00:29:29.009
that decision so that the neuro their neuroception

00:29:29.009 --> 00:29:31.349
in other words their body is saying i'm not safe

00:29:31.349 --> 00:29:33.869
in this environment cognitively they know there's

00:29:33.869 --> 00:29:35.569
a teacher there there's students there they're

00:29:35.569 --> 00:29:39.769
like it's fine like people are like fine but

00:29:39.769 --> 00:29:43.000
their body has said The demands that that environment

00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:45.799
is going to put on me is above what I can physically

00:29:45.799 --> 00:29:49.099
cope with. So when they go to the school gate,

00:29:49.339 --> 00:29:53.119
they can't put that foot over. They know I'm

00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:55.559
going to be okay. They've said the mantra, they've

00:29:55.559 --> 00:29:57.740
done all of that, but they have a trauma response

00:29:57.740 --> 00:30:00.759
where their body shuts down and all their body

00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:02.880
is trying to do is keep them safe. So it's around

00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:04.839
connecting their mind to their body as well and

00:30:04.839 --> 00:30:07.039
allowing them to connect with their body and

00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:09.380
allowing them to feel safe in different environments.

00:30:10.060 --> 00:30:12.960
I would, the first question I ask when a teenager

00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:15.759
comes in, the parents are like, how do we get

00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.039
them to school? And when the teenager comes down,

00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:20.420
I'm like, do you want to go to school? If you

00:30:20.420 --> 00:30:22.880
don't want to go to school, I can't be another

00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:24.920
adult to try and get you to something that you

00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:27.339
don't want. I'm wasting your time and I'm wasting

00:30:27.339 --> 00:30:31.079
your mom and dad's time. And they often, 90 %

00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:33.480
of the time say, I really want to go back. I

00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:35.920
just can't. So I'm like. Let's go. Let's see

00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:37.839
how we can get there. And then that's where we

00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:39.880
look at everything. We're like, what is their

00:30:39.880 --> 00:30:42.819
lived experience of school? So why is that environment

00:30:42.819 --> 00:30:45.660
overwhelming? Is it the bells ringing? Is it

00:30:45.660 --> 00:30:48.099
having the transitions of changing rooms? Is

00:30:48.099 --> 00:30:50.000
it not knowing who they're going to sit beside?

00:30:50.259 --> 00:30:52.559
Is it I don't know where my locker is? Is it

00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:54.079
I'm sitting at the back of the class and there's

00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:55.839
so much noise going on here, I can't hear what's

00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:58.259
going on? Is it I want to be loved and recognized

00:30:58.259 --> 00:31:00.299
by everybody and I'm loved and recognized by

00:31:00.299 --> 00:31:02.799
nobody and I'm lonely and isolated and I can't

00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:05.539
cope with that anymore? So finding out specifically

00:31:05.539 --> 00:31:08.119
what that young person needs and seeing what

00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:10.680
adaptations we can make from an environmental

00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:13.000
perspective and personal perspective. And then

00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:15.559
again, really working with them on like building

00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:17.240
them up to be the best version of themselves

00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:19.980
so that they can be like as regulated as they

00:31:19.980 --> 00:31:22.099
possibly can. So when they come to the door,

00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:24.480
we're looking at environment and we're looking

00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:27.799
at their occupation or their activity. The first

00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:29.900
and foremost is I'm looking at them. Are you

00:31:29.900 --> 00:31:32.140
eating good food? Are you eating something that's

00:31:32.140 --> 00:31:33.599
going to make you feel good? Are you sleeping?

00:31:33.819 --> 00:31:35.960
Are you moving your body? Are you doing something

00:31:35.960 --> 00:31:38.099
that's meaningful for you? Do you have any good

00:31:38.099 --> 00:31:39.599
connections? What are the relationships like

00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:41.380
at home? If all of those things aren't going

00:31:41.380 --> 00:31:43.339
well or one of those things aren't going well,

00:31:43.380 --> 00:31:45.960
they have a negative knock on effect on everything

00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:49.740
else. And in turn, they present at school fatigued,

00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:53.140
upset, like hungry, overly energized or under

00:31:53.140 --> 00:31:55.180
energized because of a lack of movement without

00:31:55.180 --> 00:31:57.579
putting the building blocks in place. before

00:31:57.579 --> 00:32:00.299
we go we're already at the back foot so it's

00:32:00.299 --> 00:32:02.940
like really putting that investigating hat on

00:32:02.940 --> 00:32:04.920
and saying like how is everything at home how

00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:07.559
do we build up everything and then we move into

00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:10.160
these adaptations there's no point in changing

00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:13.200
anything without making sure that everything

00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:15.220
is solid and we're the best version when we land

00:32:15.220 --> 00:32:17.940
at the door Do you find that's well received

00:32:17.940 --> 00:32:21.859
by schools? And how do you navigate that to try

00:32:21.859 --> 00:32:23.700
and make sure that schools are alongside these

00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:26.880
reasonable adjustments? I think most schools

00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:31.539
are pretty good. And I'm trying to say it in

00:32:31.539 --> 00:32:34.559
a politically correct way. Most schools are really

00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:38.339
nice. Some don't really understand the neuroaffirmative

00:32:38.339 --> 00:32:40.799
approach. For an example, I have a young person

00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:43.880
in and many of the communications that I have

00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:47.059
is just trying to help. teachers support this

00:32:47.059 --> 00:32:49.460
young person in as respectful and as kind way

00:32:49.460 --> 00:32:52.259
because i have my lens because i have i'm listening

00:32:52.259 --> 00:32:54.599
to books and i've done all of like from an educational

00:32:54.599 --> 00:32:57.299
perspective i'm immersed in this it's unfair

00:32:57.299 --> 00:32:59.279
for me to assume that somebody else is going

00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:01.660
to be so it's like here's all the knowledge here

00:33:01.660 --> 00:33:03.220
is everything that i've learned here is some

00:33:03.220 --> 00:33:05.339
evidence -based tools that is actually really

00:33:05.339 --> 00:33:07.960
helpful and really new or affirmative so if you

00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:10.980
have a teacher a teacher has maybe like we have

00:33:10.980 --> 00:33:13.079
an education that this young person needs to

00:33:13.079 --> 00:33:15.990
hear end of they need to come in they need to

00:33:15.990 --> 00:33:18.609
sit down and they need to do well that's it and

00:33:18.609 --> 00:33:21.450
that's maybe a limited approach or perspective

00:33:21.450 --> 00:33:25.230
but it's reframing what we're looking at if i

00:33:25.230 --> 00:33:27.269
have a young person that's attending school and

00:33:27.269 --> 00:33:29.349
we're pushing for attendance and they're already

00:33:29.349 --> 00:33:32.029
overflowing we need to pull back in attendance

00:33:32.029 --> 00:33:35.829
and we need to celebrate reducing that we and

00:33:35.829 --> 00:33:38.940
that's the difficult part because I think it's

00:33:38.940 --> 00:33:40.779
all well -intended. Teachers are just saying,

00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:41.980
oh my God, you're doing so well. Do you know

00:33:41.980 --> 00:33:44.200
what? How about we push to stay a little bit

00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:46.160
longer today? And how about like, I'll give you

00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:47.799
a little KitKat at the end of the day, if you

00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:49.779
can just stay for a full day. And I was like,

00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:53.640
that KitKat, that one for KitKat, and throw them

00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:55.299
over the edge. And not even the one for KitKat.

00:33:55.339 --> 00:33:57.279
What they want is the approval and the recognition

00:33:57.279 --> 00:34:00.220
that I'm doing enough. by you i want to see that

00:34:00.220 --> 00:34:02.619
you can see that i'm trying really hard because

00:34:02.619 --> 00:34:04.759
many of the neurodivergent young people that

00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:07.200
come to the door they are high achievers they

00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:09.440
want to be the best and they want to prove to

00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:12.699
the world that they're worthy enough and when

00:34:12.699 --> 00:34:15.500
we push that we're saying you're worthy enough

00:34:15.500 --> 00:34:17.559
if you can cope in an environment that doesn't

00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:20.139
meet your needs and that's not right and also

00:34:20.139 --> 00:34:22.199
that attendance is more important to me than

00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:24.320
your mental health or your well -being that's

00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:26.679
the underlying message there isn't it absolutely

00:34:27.230 --> 00:34:30.570
And then that breeds adults that are then workaholics

00:34:30.570 --> 00:34:34.150
and people pleasers and faunas. And it also breeds

00:34:34.150 --> 00:34:36.610
people that are in relationships that are faunas,

00:34:36.630 --> 00:34:38.070
that puts them in really vulnerable positions.

00:34:38.250 --> 00:34:40.829
And we don't want for our young people that we

00:34:40.829 --> 00:34:42.710
love so much and want the best for. We want them

00:34:42.710 --> 00:34:46.170
to be thriving, advocate for themselves, listen

00:34:46.170 --> 00:34:49.510
to their bodies. I see adults, I mean, I have...

00:34:49.630 --> 00:34:51.929
11 kids in my classroom I also have 14 teaching

00:34:51.929 --> 00:34:54.769
assistants so it's really interesting watching

00:34:54.769 --> 00:34:57.769
they're all rubbish at advocating for themselves

00:34:57.769 --> 00:34:59.849
and their bodies and their needs and putting

00:34:59.849 --> 00:35:01.469
their mental health first all of them are in

00:35:01.469 --> 00:35:03.909
fact the kids are better my high support needs

00:35:03.909 --> 00:35:06.849
non -speaking autistic children are far better

00:35:06.849 --> 00:35:09.409
communicators and people that listen to their

00:35:09.409 --> 00:35:12.630
body and advocate for themselves than my 14 teaching

00:35:12.630 --> 00:35:15.630
assistants um just because of their upbringing

00:35:15.630 --> 00:35:17.670
their environment their experiences and all of

00:35:17.670 --> 00:35:20.409
those things So as a teacher navigating that,

00:35:20.570 --> 00:35:24.650
I'm kind of using the same tactics for both.

00:35:24.789 --> 00:35:27.190
Honestly, I'm like naming what I'm seeing. I'm

00:35:27.190 --> 00:35:29.889
giving opportunities. I'm modeling what I would

00:35:29.889 --> 00:35:32.230
want to see taking a full lunch break, you know,

00:35:32.230 --> 00:35:35.829
using movement rates myself, you know, sharing

00:35:35.829 --> 00:35:38.349
what happened at the weekend so that I can relate

00:35:38.349 --> 00:35:41.170
to all of those things. Because as adults, how

00:35:41.170 --> 00:35:44.429
can I expect my support team to be supportive

00:35:44.429 --> 00:35:48.079
and co -regulating with my children? If they

00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:51.400
aren't putting themselves first, they're dysregulated.

00:35:51.500 --> 00:35:53.679
Their mind's somewhere else. They've not had

00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:57.280
breakfast, for example. I think as adults in

00:35:57.280 --> 00:36:01.900
that position, it has to start with us. Like

00:36:01.900 --> 00:36:04.079
a bit like on the airplane, right? You put your

00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:06.719
own mask on before the kids. It has to be that.

00:36:07.789 --> 00:36:10.809
doesn't it and there's so much in that and i

00:36:10.809 --> 00:36:13.630
couldn't agree more and like when we do have

00:36:13.630 --> 00:36:15.849
somebody who is able to advocate for those needs

00:36:15.849 --> 00:36:18.030
those skills translate into adults and i often

00:36:18.030 --> 00:36:20.289
work with lots of adults that are struggling

00:36:20.289 --> 00:36:22.170
in their own life because of the fawn response

00:36:22.170 --> 00:36:25.909
it's if i express my own needs and i'm rejected

00:36:25.909 --> 00:36:28.429
you know what does that make me feel like that

00:36:28.429 --> 00:36:31.460
they don't love who i actually am and Therefore,

00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:33.239
you know what, I'm just going to be quiet or

00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:35.820
I'll shape myself to be the version that this

00:36:35.820 --> 00:36:37.820
person needs me to be. And I would say highly

00:36:37.820 --> 00:36:40.260
anxious people or neurodivergent people are masters

00:36:40.260 --> 00:36:43.039
of that. They're masters at adapting and masking

00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:46.300
who they are. to portray whatever version that

00:36:46.300 --> 00:36:48.400
person needs. They are skilled. Highly anxious

00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:50.920
people read rooms and traumatized young people

00:36:50.920 --> 00:36:53.440
read rooms like I've never seen because they

00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:55.280
need to. They need to come into a room and it's

00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:57.199
not easy for them to walk through the room. So

00:36:57.199 --> 00:36:59.380
they're looking around and they can feel people's

00:36:59.380 --> 00:37:02.500
emotions, needs, wants, and they can really cleverly

00:37:02.500 --> 00:37:06.940
adapt to whatever that needs be. And the phone

00:37:06.940 --> 00:37:10.070
response is a really important one. A lot of

00:37:10.070 --> 00:37:12.730
the training that I would do in schools, delivering

00:37:12.730 --> 00:37:15.409
training, is I'm speaking about making sure we're

00:37:15.409 --> 00:37:18.429
looking at that fawn response, that young person

00:37:18.429 --> 00:37:20.050
that's coming and sitting on the front and they're

00:37:20.050 --> 00:37:21.969
nodding and they're smiling and they're doing

00:37:21.969 --> 00:37:24.269
everything when they are falling apart in the

00:37:24.269 --> 00:37:27.409
inside. And even for parents to hear this and

00:37:27.409 --> 00:37:30.170
foster families to hear this, the fawn response

00:37:30.170 --> 00:37:32.750
makes things easy for us because it's like, great,

00:37:32.889 --> 00:37:34.369
they're fine. Oh, they're brilliant. Should they

00:37:34.369 --> 00:37:35.650
brought me up everything? They did everything.

00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:38.860
But the long term of that behavior means none

00:37:38.860 --> 00:37:41.320
of their needs actually get met. They're often

00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:44.159
at risk of poor mental health, poor relationships,

00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:47.219
because they're never able to advocate. So when

00:37:47.219 --> 00:37:50.320
teens are fighting back with us and they're arguing

00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:52.079
and they're saying, I'm not doing that, I'm not.

00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:54.920
We need to reframe that they're learning a lot

00:37:54.920 --> 00:37:57.059
about themselves and like, actually, this doesn't

00:37:57.059 --> 00:37:59.179
feel right for me. And I'm safe enough with you.

00:37:59.260 --> 00:38:01.739
I love you enough that I can fight with you over

00:38:01.739 --> 00:38:04.559
this. And I know that our relationship is going

00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:07.489
to be fine. Even if I storm out and I bang, that's

00:38:07.489 --> 00:38:09.929
a beautiful thing. You've created a safe space

00:38:09.929 --> 00:38:12.849
for that person to advocate their needs and express

00:38:12.849 --> 00:38:14.630
themselves. It doesn't feel good at the time

00:38:14.630 --> 00:38:16.230
because you're like, come on, just do as I say.

00:38:16.349 --> 00:38:18.630
But actually what you're doing is you've created

00:38:18.630 --> 00:38:21.610
somebody who can advocate for themselves. That's

00:38:21.610 --> 00:38:23.809
wonderful. And we want to encourage that. What

00:38:23.809 --> 00:38:25.269
we don't want to encourage is that fawning behavior

00:38:25.269 --> 00:38:28.570
with the KitKat reward or whatever it is. We

00:38:28.570 --> 00:38:31.090
don't want to encourage that kind of masking.

00:38:31.250 --> 00:38:32.989
It's what we're asking them to do, right? We're

00:38:32.989 --> 00:38:35.070
asking them to bottle it all up and get through

00:38:35.070 --> 00:38:37.210
the day because that's what I'm pleased with

00:38:37.210 --> 00:38:40.030
you. That's my expectation of you. And it's just

00:38:40.030 --> 00:38:42.690
not a smart target. It's not realistic in any

00:38:42.690 --> 00:38:45.570
way. They might be able to do it for a day, a

00:38:45.570 --> 00:38:48.309
week, a month, but it's just unfair. And I suppose

00:38:48.309 --> 00:38:50.619
what will happen there. If they do achieve that

00:38:50.619 --> 00:38:53.440
day and get that kick out, well then what will

00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:55.320
happen the next day? You're not then going to

00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:57.420
let that go. The barrier is going to keep rising

00:38:57.420 --> 00:39:01.199
until they fail. That's just not fair. When we

00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:03.599
realise that's what we're doing, I feel like

00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:06.719
it will quickly, I hope, quickly get unpicked

00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:09.340
and fall apart and we have to realise, okay,

00:39:09.420 --> 00:39:11.159
we need to be really realistic about what we're

00:39:11.159 --> 00:39:16.210
asking for our students. and um set realistic

00:39:16.210 --> 00:39:19.789
expectations of them and praise effort all effort

00:39:19.789 --> 00:39:24.230
rather than the outcome agreed and it's that's

00:39:24.230 --> 00:39:26.889
very well said and i and that's the reality it's

00:39:26.889 --> 00:39:30.750
like how do we support you to like obtain an

00:39:30.750 --> 00:39:34.110
education If we can think about it from that

00:39:34.110 --> 00:39:37.670
component, if the core of what teachers, SNAs,

00:39:37.670 --> 00:39:39.949
principals want for the students is that they're

00:39:39.949 --> 00:39:42.829
going to sustain and obtain an education, how

00:39:42.829 --> 00:39:45.369
do we meet that target? And if we keep pushing

00:39:45.369 --> 00:39:47.929
for these higher targets, which they want to

00:39:47.929 --> 00:39:51.409
achieve, they will burn out. And that is so common,

00:39:51.489 --> 00:39:55.059
I would say. 80 % of the teens, maybe 90 % of

00:39:55.059 --> 00:39:56.659
the teens that first come through the door of

00:39:56.659 --> 00:39:59.300
the clinic are not in school. They haven't been

00:39:59.300 --> 00:40:01.659
able, they've burnt out. And often that's actually

00:40:01.659 --> 00:40:04.260
where their diagnosis comes, is they're like,

00:40:04.340 --> 00:40:07.199
what's going on? Because they were the best of

00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:10.119
the class. They played all of the sports. They

00:40:10.119 --> 00:40:12.780
were incredible. If I said, we're going to go

00:40:12.780 --> 00:40:15.559
here, they would say, yes, can't wait. They were...

00:40:15.769 --> 00:40:18.050
the best. And you'd hear that sentence because

00:40:18.050 --> 00:40:21.070
they had to be, they had to always turn up and

00:40:21.070 --> 00:40:23.869
show up and do everything and do it to the highest

00:40:23.869 --> 00:40:25.809
level to the point that their body just said,

00:40:25.869 --> 00:40:28.449
you know what? I can't play this game anymore.

00:40:28.849 --> 00:40:31.289
I'm gone. I'm done. And their bodies sign out.

00:40:31.369 --> 00:40:33.670
It's not a lack of want. And always remember

00:40:33.670 --> 00:40:37.429
in that component, we might have an idea that,

00:40:37.429 --> 00:40:39.050
oh, they've a lack of motivation or they don't

00:40:39.050 --> 00:40:41.829
want to. That has not been my experience. Motivation

00:40:41.829 --> 00:40:44.510
is super high. Their bodies physically cannot

00:40:44.510 --> 00:40:47.070
sustain environments that don't meet their needs.

00:40:47.170 --> 00:40:49.929
It just can't. So yeah, it's just remembering

00:40:49.929 --> 00:40:52.329
that behind the scenes, we might think we'll

00:40:52.329 --> 00:40:54.570
encourage their motivation by giving them a KitKat

00:40:54.570 --> 00:40:58.070
or rewards or praise or gold stars. They want

00:40:58.070 --> 00:41:00.010
all of that. They want that recognition, but

00:41:00.010 --> 00:41:02.130
it isn't a lack of motivation. It's just, it's

00:41:02.130 --> 00:41:03.630
actually the environment that's not meeting their

00:41:03.630 --> 00:41:05.769
needs. So what are the adaptations we can make

00:41:05.769 --> 00:41:07.789
to the environment to suit their educational

00:41:07.789 --> 00:41:11.500
needs? Absolutely. And on that topic of attendance,

00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:16.400
it's such a, we could have a whole podcast on

00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:19.440
just attendance and my feelings on that. Because

00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:22.960
when I'm working with more disabled young people,

00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:26.000
just getting them to school in the first case

00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:28.719
through hospital appointments or whatever, regulation,

00:41:28.840 --> 00:41:31.000
all those things is so challenging for parents.

00:41:31.670 --> 00:41:33.409
So naturally they're going to have lower attendance

00:41:33.409 --> 00:41:36.730
anyway. But also I feel like any kind of time

00:41:36.730 --> 00:41:39.590
that you reward children, or the opposite of

00:41:39.590 --> 00:41:42.510
that, for attendance, it just seems so unfair

00:41:42.510 --> 00:41:44.670
because so often it is nothing to do with the

00:41:44.670 --> 00:41:46.730
children. The children may want to go to school,

00:41:46.750 --> 00:41:49.250
but they may be... They can't get to school for

00:41:49.250 --> 00:41:51.010
whatever reason. Maybe it's a parent thing. Maybe

00:41:51.010 --> 00:41:53.989
it's a finance thing. Maybe it's a time thing.

00:41:54.269 --> 00:41:56.750
Maybe it's an organization thing. Maybe they're

00:41:56.750 --> 00:41:58.349
just feeling really sick. Maybe they're getting

00:41:58.349 --> 00:42:00.070
burnt out because when they are at school, they're

00:42:00.070 --> 00:42:02.610
working so hard. Actually, they need that time

00:42:02.610 --> 00:42:06.369
to respite and recuperate from the week before

00:42:06.369 --> 00:42:09.780
again. It doesn't need sticker charts, reward

00:42:09.780 --> 00:42:12.860
charts, public shame or public praise at all.

00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:15.079
I feel like it needs good relationships with

00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:17.860
parents, really open relationships with parents,

00:42:17.980 --> 00:42:20.639
really strong relationships with the parents

00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:23.340
and guardians, because ultimately that's when

00:42:23.340 --> 00:42:25.920
attendance gets improved. It's nothing to do

00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:28.079
with the children. Same for reading as well.

00:42:28.260 --> 00:42:31.300
You know, these reading charts, this public praise

00:42:31.300 --> 00:42:33.500
for reading has nothing to do with the children.

00:42:34.269 --> 00:42:37.070
all to do with the parents understanding how

00:42:37.070 --> 00:42:40.289
to do it when to do it the importance of it and

00:42:40.289 --> 00:42:42.690
more training in that regard and i think there's

00:42:42.690 --> 00:42:46.050
so much that happens in mainstream schools like

00:42:46.050 --> 00:42:49.190
that where it's then put on the children to feel

00:42:49.190 --> 00:42:53.010
shame for not doing that thing that has actually

00:42:53.010 --> 00:42:56.150
nothing to do with them in any way it's such

00:42:56.150 --> 00:42:58.630
a good point because we do put it on them if

00:42:58.630 --> 00:43:00.730
they can't attend they've let themselves down

00:43:00.730 --> 00:43:03.010
and you've done the wrong thing and that's why

00:43:03.010 --> 00:43:05.510
i'm always cautious of the idea of like you know

00:43:05.510 --> 00:43:07.949
encouraging resilience when it comes to being

00:43:07.949 --> 00:43:10.349
neurodivergent like it's that often it is those

00:43:10.349 --> 00:43:12.750
adaptations that need to be made if i'm working

00:43:12.750 --> 00:43:16.409
with a family and there's an awful lot of stuff

00:43:16.409 --> 00:43:19.679
going on at home and i Take that young person.

00:43:19.719 --> 00:43:22.239
I'm doing individual therapeutic work. I can't

00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:24.059
put them back in that home environment that doesn't

00:43:24.059 --> 00:43:25.960
meet their needs and think that their well -being

00:43:25.960 --> 00:43:28.820
is going to improve. It's the environment that

00:43:28.820 --> 00:43:31.119
they're in and how they react to that is everything

00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:33.539
from a school setting to a home setting. And

00:43:33.539 --> 00:43:35.059
there's another lovely point that you made there.

00:43:35.690 --> 00:43:38.250
I really think that collaborative piece with

00:43:38.250 --> 00:43:41.510
teachers and school is so important that when

00:43:41.510 --> 00:43:43.690
we are coming to the school, that we're keeping

00:43:43.690 --> 00:43:46.429
those positive relationships going. Not only

00:43:46.429 --> 00:43:48.570
are we modeling it for our kids, but when those

00:43:48.570 --> 00:43:50.829
relationships are there, it becomes a really

00:43:50.829 --> 00:43:53.929
positive working relationship. versus you need

00:43:53.929 --> 00:43:56.090
to do, you have to do. We just know that language

00:43:56.090 --> 00:43:58.809
doesn't work and we need to lead with empathy

00:43:58.809 --> 00:44:01.489
on both sides from a parent perspective of the

00:44:01.489 --> 00:44:03.590
limitations of what schools might have, that

00:44:03.590 --> 00:44:06.530
we're meeting a teacher that is navigating 15,

00:44:06.809 --> 00:44:11.769
20, 25, 30 students with varied needs, varied

00:44:11.769 --> 00:44:14.010
learning styles, and they have a curriculum that

00:44:14.010 --> 00:44:16.050
they have to deliver. That's who we're meeting.

00:44:16.289 --> 00:44:19.710
So imagine us in that situation trying to navigate

00:44:19.710 --> 00:44:22.059
30 when we're struggling with. like to navigate

00:44:22.059 --> 00:44:25.179
our own so like how then do we meet them with

00:44:25.179 --> 00:44:28.019
empathy and vice versa for the parents to say

00:44:28.019 --> 00:44:30.280
or for the teachers to say okay this is the real

00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:33.199
professional here they know the deep needs of

00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:36.219
my child of their own child so let me hear what

00:44:36.219 --> 00:44:38.539
they're saying just because my child might that

00:44:38.539 --> 00:44:41.280
their child might sit in classroom and fawn and

00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:43.800
say yes or no surgery bags full and then go home

00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:46.559
and be completely dysregulated i need to hear

00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:48.820
that as that's the truth so what adaptations

00:44:48.820 --> 00:44:51.849
can i make to make their life a little bit easier

00:44:51.849 --> 00:44:55.250
at home as well so it is and that positive relationship

00:44:55.250 --> 00:44:58.789
isn't it for that meeting coming with an open

00:44:58.789 --> 00:45:00.889
mind that this other person whether it's the

00:45:00.889 --> 00:45:02.170
parent or the teacher or depending on which one

00:45:02.170 --> 00:45:04.789
you are is believe them listen to what they're

00:45:04.789 --> 00:45:06.809
actually saying listen to the subtext of what

00:45:06.809 --> 00:45:08.670
they're actually saying and then meet together

00:45:08.670 --> 00:45:11.110
as to try and find a resolution because otherwise

00:45:11.110 --> 00:45:12.769
you have nothing if you're both pulling in different

00:45:12.769 --> 00:45:15.349
directions both could be right both could work

00:45:15.349 --> 00:45:17.110
but if you're both pulling in different directions

00:45:17.110 --> 00:45:19.119
is not going to help Still the same about the

00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:20.559
team around the child. I'm sure as an occupational

00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:23.199
therapist, you work with big teams around certain

00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:25.619
young people that you work with. And we've all

00:45:25.619 --> 00:45:27.920
got our own targets. We've all got our own things

00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:29.760
that we think are the most important. And they're

00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:32.639
all right. But you can't do it all at once. This

00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:35.860
poor child or parent often having to navigate

00:45:35.860 --> 00:45:37.380
all of these different targets, all of these

00:45:37.380 --> 00:45:40.920
different objectives and feelings on what's best

00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:45.119
for them and themselves. It can be so hard to

00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:47.679
navigate. So coming together as a team and deciding,

00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:49.280
look, I know these things are all important,

00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:51.460
but actually what are we focusing on this week,

00:45:51.619 --> 00:45:53.900
this term? And letting it go, but letting your

00:45:53.900 --> 00:45:56.420
ego go as the teacher, as the speech and language

00:45:56.420 --> 00:45:58.079
therapist, or as the occupational therapist to

00:45:58.079 --> 00:46:00.019
like, maybe your thing isn't actually the most

00:46:00.019 --> 00:46:03.280
important right now. I couldn't agree more. And

00:46:03.280 --> 00:46:07.059
absolutely leaving the ego at the door. And that

00:46:07.059 --> 00:46:10.079
doesn't matter who you are sometimes. Walking

00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:12.320
into a room, believing that you probably know

00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:14.340
the least in the room is a beautiful place to

00:46:14.340 --> 00:46:15.940
start because that's where learning happens.

00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:18.500
And if we all did that, wouldn't that be so wonderful?

00:46:19.059 --> 00:46:22.559
Absolutely. How quiet would rooms be? Everyone's

00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:24.639
sitting listening. Somebody's going to say something

00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:27.409
good here and it's not going to be me. I think

00:46:27.409 --> 00:46:30.010
that's when real work happens is when we all

00:46:30.010 --> 00:46:33.570
sit back and actually listen. And I love bringing

00:46:33.570 --> 00:46:35.889
videos and photos of the children to meetings

00:46:35.889 --> 00:46:38.030
like that because it just brings it back. Like,

00:46:38.030 --> 00:46:40.309
look, we all have our own ideas, our own experience,

00:46:40.429 --> 00:46:43.150
our own education. But actually, what does this

00:46:43.150 --> 00:46:44.769
young person want? If they could speak, because

00:46:44.769 --> 00:46:47.070
all of my young people can't speak. If they could

00:46:47.070 --> 00:46:48.690
speak and advocate for themselves, what would

00:46:48.690 --> 00:46:50.769
they be saying? Actually, they don't want to

00:46:50.769 --> 00:46:52.469
do that, that and that. They just want to be

00:46:52.469 --> 00:46:54.889
able to. ask for a tv program they want okay

00:46:54.889 --> 00:46:57.190
well that's the target you know and it just brings

00:46:57.190 --> 00:47:00.309
it back down to this young person advocating

00:47:00.309 --> 00:47:02.530
for them and you can't argue with that really

00:47:02.530 --> 00:47:06.150
because it's what they want yeah and we would

00:47:06.150 --> 00:47:08.650
often say and the research reflects this it's

00:47:08.650 --> 00:47:11.030
when we are all coming together and looking at

00:47:11.030 --> 00:47:14.489
the client -centered goals When we're there differently

00:47:14.489 --> 00:47:17.349
and we all have different goals, as you said,

00:47:17.349 --> 00:47:19.889
we're all trying to work in a very different

00:47:19.889 --> 00:47:22.610
way. But if we can collectively get the goal

00:47:22.610 --> 00:47:25.369
that the client, the person, the student wants,

00:47:25.570 --> 00:47:27.389
and then instead of using a multidisciplinary

00:47:27.389 --> 00:47:29.210
approach where there's lots of different people,

00:47:29.329 --> 00:47:31.429
it's an interdisciplinary approach. Okay, so

00:47:31.429 --> 00:47:34.289
this is the goal. I actually think I can help

00:47:34.289 --> 00:47:36.250
with this part. Okay, well, I can help with this

00:47:36.250 --> 00:47:39.409
part. And the success rate is completely different.

00:47:39.590 --> 00:47:41.429
In Ireland, we have a lot of multidisciplinary

00:47:41.429 --> 00:47:43.630
approaches. So there's a lot of, there's a speech

00:47:43.630 --> 00:47:45.010
and language, there's an OT, there's psychology,

00:47:45.230 --> 00:47:47.250
and we're all working on our own individual.

00:47:47.389 --> 00:47:49.269
And we miss the component of coming together

00:47:49.269 --> 00:47:51.349
saying, who is this person? What do they need

00:47:51.349 --> 00:47:53.670
and want? And what is my role to help them get

00:47:53.670 --> 00:47:55.940
to that end goal? okay i can i can step in there

00:47:55.940 --> 00:47:58.219
and do that and i think we need to we need to

00:47:58.219 --> 00:48:00.059
look at that what is the goal we're looking for

00:48:00.059 --> 00:48:02.659
and what's my role in supporting that process

00:48:02.659 --> 00:48:06.480
not my goal for them i love that so much and

00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:09.119
as teachers and parents we could definitely be

00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:11.539
an advocate for that you know pulling it all

00:48:11.539 --> 00:48:13.480
together reminding everybody that we're working

00:48:13.480 --> 00:48:18.179
with for one thing And that's really great homework

00:48:18.179 --> 00:48:20.480
for me, actually, and everybody else listening,

00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:22.559
that if you're leading an EHCP meeting or an

00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:24.480
IEP meeting or a team around the child meeting

00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:29.400
this upcoming term, maybe that's your role. Maybe

00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:31.539
your role isn't to come with new targets, but

00:48:31.539 --> 00:48:33.940
it's just to collate it all and to put everybody

00:48:33.940 --> 00:48:37.519
into one goal and all working for the same thing.

00:48:37.559 --> 00:48:40.179
And I totally agree with you. Of course, that

00:48:40.179 --> 00:48:43.079
would mean better results for our young people

00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:48.369
that we all want. the best for. And the joy that

00:48:48.369 --> 00:48:50.510
everyone's going to get in the process of doing

00:48:50.510 --> 00:48:52.510
that. And that's when we can keep those positive

00:48:52.510 --> 00:48:54.650
relationships going. We know from a work context,

00:48:54.690 --> 00:48:57.170
we are going to work harder for the person we

00:48:57.170 --> 00:48:59.590
adore and we connect with and we love. Like that's

00:48:59.590 --> 00:49:02.570
parent, that's a colleague. We want to go above

00:49:02.570 --> 00:49:04.969
and beyond what we can, above our role, when

00:49:04.969 --> 00:49:07.809
we feel good about the interaction. So let's

00:49:07.809 --> 00:49:09.750
keep it as optimistic and positive and let's

00:49:09.750 --> 00:49:11.989
move further. The ultimate goal, which is what

00:49:11.989 --> 00:49:14.150
we're all there for, that parents want to make

00:49:14.150 --> 00:49:16.239
sure that their children have it. beautiful experience,

00:49:16.539 --> 00:49:19.760
beautiful memories and are as independent and

00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:22.480
feel good about themselves in this setting as

00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:25.159
possible. Teachers want the same. They want the

00:49:25.159 --> 00:49:26.900
same outcome. SNAs want the same. They want the

00:49:26.900 --> 00:49:29.519
same outcome. People just, so we all know and

00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:31.960
we all have a role to play. So let's collaborate

00:49:31.960 --> 00:49:34.420
and work together in that space. And that was

00:49:34.420 --> 00:49:37.639
a beautiful sentiment to finish our podcast today.

00:49:37.900 --> 00:49:40.619
You have a workshop all about the stuff that

00:49:40.619 --> 00:49:41.599
we've been talking about today. Do you want to

00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:43.900
tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, so I have

00:49:43.900 --> 00:49:46.400
a workshop coming up with Dr. Jennifer Cupbage

00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:48.980
and we work together, we collaborate together

00:49:48.980 --> 00:49:51.679
a lot. And what we're seeing, and we actually

00:49:51.679 --> 00:49:54.340
are both, our waiting lists are closed. We don't

00:49:54.340 --> 00:49:56.559
have the ability to support the parents that

00:49:56.559 --> 00:49:59.389
we... that need the support so they can support

00:49:59.389 --> 00:50:01.429
their teens. So we're seeing heightened levels

00:50:01.429 --> 00:50:03.510
of anxiety. We're seeing self -harm, suicidal

00:50:03.510 --> 00:50:06.250
ideation, eating disorders, mobile phone addictions.

00:50:06.250 --> 00:50:10.989
We're seeing isolation. It's so heavy, some of

00:50:10.989 --> 00:50:13.389
the cases here at the moment. So what we're doing

00:50:13.389 --> 00:50:15.230
is we're doing a workshop on the 5th of October

00:50:15.230 --> 00:50:18.949
in the Kingsley in Cork in Ireland. And it's

00:50:18.949 --> 00:50:22.889
from 4pm to 7 .30. So it's just going to be all

00:50:22.889 --> 00:50:26.199
around anxiety, but actually empowering. parents

00:50:26.199 --> 00:50:29.159
and carers and professionals of what tools do

00:50:29.159 --> 00:50:31.719
I need so I can support teens so that they can

00:50:31.719 --> 00:50:34.599
maybe reduce screen time, live a more meaningful

00:50:34.599 --> 00:50:36.519
life, get that social connection that they're

00:50:36.519 --> 00:50:40.059
starving and craving. So we're going to talk

00:50:40.059 --> 00:50:42.860
about lots and keep the space open so people

00:50:42.860 --> 00:50:45.099
can ask questions. That's why it's the blend

00:50:45.099 --> 00:50:46.820
that it is so that we can have that back and

00:50:46.820 --> 00:50:49.480
forth. So yeah, it'd be great if anyone wants

00:50:49.480 --> 00:50:53.880
to join. Yeah, join the party. I'll leave a link

00:50:53.880 --> 00:50:55.679
down in the description below if that's okay.

00:50:55.900 --> 00:50:59.199
And is the workshop format something that you

00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:03.980
will want to do regularly? I would say it's commonly

00:51:03.980 --> 00:51:06.519
what's asked. There's a lot of people around

00:51:06.519 --> 00:51:08.619
Ireland that are saying, oh, you're coming to

00:51:08.619 --> 00:51:10.260
the north of Ireland, could you do it here? It's

00:51:10.260 --> 00:51:12.699
probably the most common topics that we talk

00:51:12.699 --> 00:51:15.400
about in clinic. And then it's probably, it's

00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:16.940
the one that's sought after. So we're debating

00:51:16.940 --> 00:51:19.500
now, okay, how do we maybe record this, use webinars?

00:51:20.190 --> 00:51:22.289
what does this look like but for now it's in

00:51:22.289 --> 00:51:25.110
person in cork but i would say like i've done

00:51:25.110 --> 00:51:28.969
similar ones to this regularly ad anxiety they're

00:51:28.969 --> 00:51:30.750
they're the two ones that seem that people are

00:51:30.750 --> 00:51:32.610
like i just need more information how do i support

00:51:32.610 --> 00:51:35.929
families amazing thank you so much that's so

00:51:35.929 --> 00:51:38.809
useful i yeah all the links uh in the description

00:51:38.809 --> 00:51:42.139
to find out more about that and about hadro and

00:51:42.139 --> 00:51:45.039
all of his website and all of the things will

00:51:45.039 --> 00:51:47.199
be down below. Thank you so much for joining

00:51:47.199 --> 00:51:49.519
me today. I have loved this conversation so much.

00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:51.760
I've personally got a lot out of it, so I hope

00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:53.679
everybody listening has too. I'm sure they have.

00:51:54.960 --> 00:51:55.840
That's awesome. Thank you.