Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education
teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything
communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson
ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged
4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in
the field answering your questions and sharing
our knowledge and experience working alongside
our beautiful young people. Let's get started.
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today. Now to the episode. Hello everybody and
welcome to the Sensory Cartoon Podcast. My name
is Jordan and today I'm joined by Dr. Morgan
who has worked in education for 18 years in special
education and also has a PhD in school and clinical
psychology. Always has supported in schools but
then in 2021 has began providing online support
through Instagram and courses. Hello Dr. Morgan.
You can just call me Morgan. It feels wrong to
not call you Dr. Morgan because it's such a huge
achievement honestly. When I was reading your
bio, I just thought, oh my goodness, this woman
is just such a powerhouse of knowledge. I have
to get her on the podcast. So thank you so much
for joining me today. Absolutely. And thank you.
Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit
on your journey from, you know, all those 18
years and what that has, how that has led you
to your business, what it looks like today? Sure.
I'm like, do you want the short or the long version?
Whatever you prefer. No, I don't. Sometimes people
are like, you've done it all. How did you do
all these things? And I don't feel like that.
I feel like I'm learning something new every
day, like multiple times a day. And when I look
back, I think. is when the journey is more clear.
I had had a job. My first career was in PR and
marketing, which is so not relevant, but also
oddly is. And I did that for a couple of years
in New York, in the States, and then in Seattle,
Washington. And I liked it, but it was not fulfilling
this core need, desire, purpose that I thought
that I... I just knew that I had a purpose that
was different than what I was doing. And I started
volunteering at this house in Seattle. It's actually
right by the airport. And it was for kids who
were in the foster care system but could not
be placed in family settings for whatever reason.
And I got there and literally it's like, you
know, all of us working there under 25. Sometimes
the kids that were supporting. are 18 and we're
21. You know, we are slightly above their age
and development and we're in many ways responsible
for so much of their care the way that a parent,
a true parent would be. And I somehow found myself
in this educational liaison. I'm using air quotes
here. Educational liaison role. I had no idea.
I knew nothing about education at all. And I
was going to. individualized education plan meetings
for these kids because they all had disabilities.
And I'm quickly figuring out what a disability
is and what constitutes a disability. in different
arenas, in the medical model versus the school
model. And I loved it. And so I decided to become
a teacher. And I did that job for about a year.
I had a really great boss in the marketing world
at the time. We used to have bagels and coffee
once a week. And his work was clearly his passion
in life. And he was really keen on mentoring
people into their passions. And he And I was
talking to him about this center and working
with these kids and all this stuff. And finally,
I said, I don't think I'm supposed to do this
work anymore. And he said, I don't think you
are either. I never tell this story. But he goes,
you're fired. Do you want to be fired now or
in six months? Wow. Amazing mental. Yeah. And
I was like, what? I've never been fired. Oh,
my goodness. And he's like, no, no, no. is like
you're in a bridge, like you're bridging two
worlds and I think you need help. And so I'm
going to give you that push. And so I got my
ducks in a row and I joined an organization to
kind of expedite your license and get you into
a master's program and teach full -time while
doing that. And so I moved to Hawaii and I taught
there and I ended up adopting two kids while
I was there in what would be called a Hanai adoption.
So it's not like I took them from their family.
It was more like we integrated our lives. From
there, it kind of snowballed, right? Like I was
a classroom teacher and then I was also raising
these two kids as a bonus mom. Then I got asked
to start a school in Denver and I started one
school and then I started another school. And
then I felt like I had this weird set of knowledge.
I had the special ed knowledge. This whole time
I had been supporting these kids, I was recognizing
that all these other things were happening in
their lives that were really impacting them.
And I felt like even there, yes, there was a
disability, but. Like there was a lot that could
be done to support that. But there was also this
mental health component. It was partly by being
neurodivergent and was partly by the way they're
moving through the world and what they're experiencing.
And that I wanted to know more about. And so
that's where I went and I got my PhD. And I started
in school psychology, but then expanded my training.
And so that's where we are. And that's how I
sit in the intersection of these kind of two
spaces. Amazing. you seem way too young to have
all that experience but I'm so pleased to like
absorb some of your knowledge right now a past
foster carer also been a foster carer for the
last for three years in total like in spaces
and yeah I have a huge heart for it too I feel
like there's so much overlap because so often
the children that need the most support and I
have the most lacking support in the foster care
system of the disabled and neurodivergent children
they're harder to place honestly but also some
of the trauma that children face it looks like
neurodivergence they're highly anxious or yeah
have all sorts of different trauma responses
that mean that they need extra support also so
there's kind of this weird overlap and I feel
like lots of people that are passionate about
one would naturally be passionate about the other
if they got the opportunity to be because yeah
there is so much. overlap if you have the heart
for one you'll probably have the heart for the
other so it's really lovely to have a kindred
spirit across the pond that um I can align so
much of my passions for both of those things
who do you support now then because obviously
that expands a huge range of children and need
and experience what does your kind of day -to
-day like people you work with look like yes
great question it I think my business kind of
reflects my own personality. And also, I think
I know too much now to be able to have a proper
diagnosis, but I am 99 .99999 % sure that I have
ADHD. I can think all the way back to my childhood,
definitely before the age markers that we would
need for determination. And I think that's reflected
in my business. So we have two sides, actually.
We have Reach Learning Services and those. are
for, that's an educational service for kids who
have. primarily learning disabilities and level
one autism. And they have trained educators that
are then trained in like Orton -Gillingham, which
is the gold standard really in terms of reading
intervention for dyslexia. They're in like a
bunch of these different programs essentially
that can support dyslexia, dyscalculia, dysgraphia.
So you're kind of like core three learning disabilities
in terms of reading, writing, and math. And then
they support kids with auditory processing disorders.
and helping kids with strategies around that.
And then they help kids with ADHD and kids with
primarily level one autism. These are the kids
that a lot of, they self -describe being more
impacted than any of the... the descriptors would
indicate you know a lot of times they're referred
to as low support needs or um you know level
one or high five years ago they would have been
called aspergers which is right because exactly
what you say like there is so much more they're
high maskers they have just as prevalent sensory
needs and i often feel Like I'm part of a special
education classroom, but it's attached to a mainstream
school. So lots of the level one autistics are
actually just part of the mainstream setting.
And I often think they struggle almost worse,
like harder than the kids in my class, because
the kids in my class, there's a innocence there.
There's an unawareness there of where they should
be or where they're at. They don't feel like
they're missing out because they're just having
the best time. And they're not, they are not
aware enough of where they could be or where
they should be. Whereas those with level one
autism, there is an awareness there. There's
awareness of there's loneliness there. It really
does affect their mental health because they
have a feeling of, well, I should have friends
or I should have a relationships or I should
have be able to do all these things and I can't.
And then that's where that low self -esteem comes
in. And I feel like they really struggle. There's
an awareness there of what they should or could
be. Mm -hmm. And yet they can't or find it more
difficult. And that awareness, I think, makes
it really, really difficult. And I almost hate
that it's called level one to three because it
makes it feel like the level one isn't so bad.
And I think they have a really tough time. Yes.
I mean, yes. We have so many kids that end up
because they start in the reach learning services.
And then a lot of our level one kiddos, they'll
then also see me because I oversee that side
because I was a special ed teacher. I was a special
ed director. I did it. much that'll work. And
I train them. I train all of the educators so
that they have additional training in neurodivergent
profiles and understanding and what could be
going on for these kids from a social perspective,
a sensory perspective. The idea almost that a
lot of those disabilities have like dimmer switches
and sometimes they look more present. They're
more symptomatic if we're using like that terminology.
But sometimes it just feels a lot, their day
feels a lot heavier. Their needs feel a lot heavier.
And then other days they're turned down really.
And that can also mess with yourself, too. If
you're like, I could do this yesterday. Why can't
I do this today? That can be such a hard place
to be. Them and their teachers and their parents,
there must be such high expectations on them
at all times because they sometimes can do these
things. But it depends on the environment, how
they're feeling in their body, what has happened
yesterday, what kind of sleep they've had, you
know, all of these things. But then to have the
same high expectations on them all the time.
Time must be so difficult. So difficult because
by definition, their disabilities are dynamic.
They don't show up the same way every day. And
then when you're little, you don't have language
for that. And in fact, I'm in my 40s and I didn't
have language for that until like three years
ago. And I would. I would argue that I have more
knowledge, more, and I should have, you know,
here I am shitting on myself, but like I should
have, air quotes, should have known that. And
I still didn't. So then we're expecting our kids
to. I don't think that's a fair ask. But what
is happening is that these kids are then wanting
to perform in a neurotypical way most of the
time. They're not understanding the ebb and flow
of having. a dynamic disability that shifts from
time to time based upon all these things that
you just mentioned. So then what they hear is
that they're not. that they were lazy that day,
that they're not being motivated, that they're
not trying hard enough, that they need to, I
don't know if the language is the same, but we've
got like locking in as like a major phrase here.
Like they just need to lock in. They need to
really focus. And they internalize that narrative
as something that is wrong with them, not recognizing
that it's literally part of a core component
of that disability and that we really want to
understand our own. profiles because mine's going
to be different from somebody else's, right?
And being able to figure out what you need in
any given moment. A lot of our kids, they'll
either engage with Reach Learning Services for
academic support from somebody who deeply understands
that. Right. And starts to talk about things
like, hey, where's your energy level today? Hey,
you know, where's your social battery today?
And and then talking about, well, what do you
need? Do you need an accommodation here? Do we
need to shift the way we work today? We need
to do like a dance party here at the beginning.
And the part of the reason that we're doing that
is, yes, to teach them for sure. We want to be
able to help teach them. But second, I would
really like for that to be a narrative that they
start to. to also say to themselves, what do
I need today? Where am I at? Essentially, what
accommodation would support me best right now
to get whatever I really need to get done? I
don't always have to walk in at 100%. That's
unrealistic. None of us are walking in in every
aspect of our day giving 100%. We don't have
it to give. And so we want our kids to have that.
It shouldn't be the expectation that they put
on themselves. It shouldn't be the expectation
that others put on them. But I think the dynamic
nature of it is what makes it particularly hard.
I don't think any parent or teacher is walking
around wanting to instill this narrative that
essentially can impact self -esteem and impact
anxiety and depression. They don't want to be
doing that, but it's that they don't know. They
don't understand the variability. that can happen
even within a day, let alone the course of a
week, a month, a year. Yes, definitely. And if
their children are able to vocalize that and
explain that, then that will only help others
to understand where they're at, won't it? Is
there a mix of females and males and how that
presents itself within REACH? Yes, absolutely.
We have, gosh, we have a lot more executive functioning
that's happened post -pandemic. I have a whole
wondering about that, much to our previous part
of our conversation. We're just seeing tons and
tons of kids diagnosed with ADHD. And I'm a little,
I have some trepidation about that because the
whole world experienced a trauma and every country
responded in its own way. But it was also like
no matter where you lived in the world, it was
probably something you had never experienced
before. And so that's. And nobody knew. There's
a lot of pieces to that that are kind of like
a global trauma. And I'm a little apprehensive
on if all of these diagnoses are actually ADHD
or if these are kids that were in a stage of
development and it was shifted, it was arrested,
it was paused and impacted pretty significantly
for depending upon where you are, you know, six
months, a year, two years. a nervous response,
a trauma response that is making you more hypervigilant
and looking like ADHD. I don't know, but I find
it odd. And I think that it would be worth studying
because I would hedge to bet that there's something
else in the mix and that not all of these kids
actually have ADHD. Yeah, that's so interesting.
I also think that it's worth considering that
If they are high maskers and they've been at
school for that long and then COVID gave them
the opportunity to unwind, unmask, to rethink
their bodies, to eat when they want, go to the
toilet when they want, to move when they want.
And then they had to go back into the school
system. They're going to really struggle with
that too. So they were always ADHD. Maybe, you
know, I'm just being devil's advocate, but maybe
they were ADHD, but they were high maskers, faunas.
They wanted to please, but they didn't. their
interception was kind of off so they didn't listen
to their bodies because they would get told off
that would be seen as bad whereas at home i can
move when i want i can go outside i can have
a drink when i'm all of a sudden they started
listening to their body which is awesome that's
what we want that's what in special education
we celebrate right absolutely and having the
same expectations that they did before COVID,
but now they know their body so much better and
they know they need to move and they know what
their body needs and they're having to kind of
unlearn that must be really difficult. And I
can imagine that looks like an ADHD. Great point.
It definitely goes both ways. There are also
kids where I'm like, how on earth? Did we get
this far? And it's often your high maskers and
your kids that are your fauners, your high performers,
your perfectionistic kids that are really seeking
to please. Definitely, there is a lot of that.
We've seen a massive increase in homeschooling
since COVID. especially neurodivergent children
at all ages actually and I think parents just
realize like gosh you were so stressed you were
an absolute shell of yourself when you were in
the school system and I love this version of
you I love that you're more confident exploring
yourself you know exploring what you're interested
in. You've got your spark back. And I think lots
of parents saw that and don't want to send their
kids back into school. And gosh, it's a luxury
to homeschool that so many parents don't have.
But I can totally see why, if you can do that,
that you would make that choice, honestly. Absolutely.
I also see pods, homeschool pods here. And sometimes
they've hired a teacher and it's several families
that have gotten together. Yeah, there's some
really interesting ways of supporting kids. that
have come out of the pandemic. I'm like, man,
whatever works, if it, you know, I say this all
the time, if it works for your kid, it works,
right? If it works for you, it works. I've also,
interesting, I've done some support in schools
because I do a lot on helping teachers integrate.
This is funny. This is like none of the stuff
that I sent you for us to talk about, but it's
always fun. I love it. Me too. I'm like, I'm
just nerding out on teaching. But I do a lot
of support in schools where I go in and I do
professional development in schools all over.
But I also, because I was a teacher, right? So
I'm not a psychologist coming in and asking you
to do all of these things and not understanding
the realities of the classroom, right? I've been
in the classroom for a long time. Yeah. Yeah.
And and so I talk a lot with teachers and help
them integrate social and emotional work into
the academics, because I really think that that
is where the work is. It's not about doing 20
minutes and checking in on a mood meter and then
put that away. And now we're on to math. You
know, it's really about recognizing, like, where
am I at today? Do I need something right now
to be able to persevere through this? And man,
am I going to need a break? Do I need a drink
of water? There might be some. tough things in
here. Like I hate having to erase when I didn't
do the addition right. And that makes me so angry.
If that happens, that anticipatory thinking,
if that happens, like how am I going to manage
that frustration? That's what we really want
our kids doing. It needs to be embedded in everything.
It's music to my ears. You've reminded me of
an argument I once had with an old deputy head.
that I worked with for 10 years and she wanted
me to replace one of my, we call them PSED lessons,
it's like personal, social, emotional development
lessons with an English or a maths. And I was
like, no, I'm not doing that. We've already got
so much English and maths and this is the most
important lesson they learn. There is no point
them learning how to say I want a bus ticket
or be able to work out the change for their bus
ticket if they can't even get on the bus in the
first place. They need to have the confidence.
And the knowledge of like the world to be able
to access and wait for the bus and get on the
bus and feel confident enough to be able to communicate
what they want and know what they want and all
of those things and social and everything. Like
they can't. What's the point in the English and
maths if they can't do that? Be regulated enough
to leave the house, all of those things. So yeah,
music to my ears that I've been fighting this
for a very long time. But yeah, I totally agree
that those kind of social skills, that regulation
skills, knowing your own body and being grounded
in yourself is the fundamentals of everything.
It has to come first. Yes, yes, it really, really
does. And it's interesting because I have I've
been doing that work since 2016, 2017. And the
stress levels of teachers in the years again,
2022 forward, I think has just been really, really
high. And I think that. I don't know. Again,
this is an assumption on my part or a wondering
actually, even more than an assumption. I wonder
if so many of our teachers and people in other
professions as well, but I feel like teachers
just get a heavy load in a lot of ways. They
didn't have time to process everything. And then
they came back into the classrooms and felt a
sense of urgency. They felt like kids were behind.
They felt like they owed it to try and like catch
them up. I've heard that from a lot of teachers.
And in that, they... Sometimes, not all the time
by any means, I think that they have been so
worried about the academic performance for kids
and getting them back up to grade level or closer
to grade level that they have forgot about some
of like typical development factors. Like second
graders should be yapping all the time and you
should be like. will they just be quiet for a
minute? Like, you know, that's what we would
expect from that age group. And so, you know,
but I'll be in a classroom and they're like,
they just talk so much. I'm like, actually, we
want them to talk. How we want them to talk,
you know, and give them the space to talk. And
can you shift your classroom expectations so
that they have more voice and agency? And, you
know, but I think what. In some cases, what I
have seen happen is that there's a lot of anxiety,
tension, stress for those teachers. And so a
natural response for a lot of people in that
situation is to try and retake back control,
which means that they take agency from kids,
again, unintentionally. They're not trying to
do that. Their nervous systems are just vibrating.
Yeah, and then also finances. I don't know if
America's had the same problem, but since COVID,
school budgets have... absolutely been thrashed
so all the support aides I know you call them
paraprofessionals we call them teaching assistants
has been slashed like the budget for that so
there's way less adults to support you so the
teachers are more on their own than ever with
needs in their class more diverse and more complex
than ever it's kind of a recipe that for no wonder
yeah you know this is happening right yeah yep
absolutely so then what is the answer you know
I suppose a good question to ask you is What
are some things that if you walk into a class
you would want to see that are accessible, easily
attainable, that are just good practice for all
children, I suppose? I would want to see real
regulation options for kids that are varied.
And I say real meaning that it's not just something
on a wall to refer to. You know, that could be
different seating options. It could be, you know,
having a space for standing or walking in the
back if you wanted to do that. It could be if
you needed, you know. depending upon age ranges
and things like that, different things to wait
on you. If you're in secondary school, like high
school, you know, being able to wear an AirPod,
but not, you know, not both. You need to be able
to listen. But if you, like, I have kids that
I work with that they're like, I put my hood
up because I just need to drown out the world
a little bit. And it actually helps them to focus
in on the teacher or the work that they're doing.
Maybe they'll... They'll listen and then when
it's time to do the actual schoolwork, they put
their hood up and they go. Teachers and spaces
have an understanding for those different kinds
of needs. And then the other one that I would
say are thinking frames. So ways for kids to
think through what their needs may be. Because
a lot of times we have things that say like identify
your feeling or this or that. Here's the deal.
If you are in any type of dysregulated state
or you are dysregulating, the prefrontal cortex
is the first part of your brain that goes offline.
Well, that's your decision making. That's your
good decision making, right? So if you don't
have something external that you can look at
that says, do this, think about this, like you
are, you are decreasing the likelihood of being
able to access those skills because the actual
mechanism that would do that is. is offline.
So making sure that kids have a way to process
that in real time is really helpful. And choices
in that process are helpful too, because when
a kid is making even just small choices, am I
going to sit or am I going to stand? Am I going
to, you know, am I going to grab this or am I
going to grab that? It's a little bit of a, you
know. an art form here you don't want too many
choices but you do want some because when they
do make those choices it kind of just crawls
their prefrontal cortex back online by just making
even small decisions could it be like this like
a way of making that easier would be with visuals
rather than spoken choices so you could be showing
the photos of the things or you could be showing
the actual objects so that they don't have to
process what you're asking them but they can
just see the two and make the choice that's really
interesting I haven't heard of that before that
you're kind of wanting to creep in that yeah
that those choices it makes so much sense I also
hear so much that oh they can they can they know
all the emotions they can say happy and sad and
angry and they can move all the things but they
just don't do it when they're feeling it and
you've explained beautifully why that would be
because they just don't have access to that part
of their brain when they're dysregulated So I
suppose, would you have stuff ready to go and
then to offer them when they're feeling that?
Or, you know, how would you make, support the
child to make those kind of helpful things accessible
to them in that moment when they're feeling it
or when they're bubbling up? Yes. So I would
actually back up and I would teach it when everybody
is regulated, right? Or the vast majority of
kids are regulated. And go through and have them.
If you have sensory materials that, you know,
or different things that they can use, let the
kids try them. You know, if you are doing a 20
minute lesson or something, this to me would
be a gold, golden opportunity. And that is, you
know, go through the, go through that framework,
practice it together, take out some of the tools,
use them, rate them. I would want a kid to be
like this, like one of the first questions I
would ask, especially if they're third graders
or older, I would say there's eight or older.
I would say, Which ones you absolutely not like?
Because nobody asked them that. Right. And so
starting with that one, like, yeah, this is not
for me. Great. Well, we're not going to use that
one. Right. That's probably not going to be some
of your go to's. Which ones feel really good?
Which one do you maybe you might not know the
feeling yet in your body, but you might go. And
then we can talk about how that means that there's
something that's soothing to your brain, your
body about that tool. So a lot of times I use
gestures at first with kids and actually even
young adults, too, because we we sometimes we
know intellectually words, but we don't know
how they feel. And so sometimes using a gesture.
that mimics how people respond when they're feeling
a certain emotion can actually help them tap
into that a little bit better. So I would do
that. I would teach it to all kids. And then
I would have them have their own plan where they're
like, these are my top tools, where they just
have that available to them. Obviously, I'm talking
more probably elementary primarily, just in terms
of... It makes sense though. I feel like my learners
are kind of cognitively age four and below, like
zero to four. But I feel like by having... the
stuff out and seeing what they gravitate towards,
adults could still build an idea of what they
like, what helps them, what they avoid, you know,
might take a little bit longer, but through observation,
you could kind of still build that kind of repertoire,
that kind of profile of what supports the child
and to have it written down, to have it available
to people that come into the room would be so
helpful. Yes, yes. The other thing that I would
say is we And I do this too. When I am not at
my best, I revert back to previous learnings,
right, and previous behaviors. And everybody
does. And I definitely did this in my classroom
for a long time until I learned a different way
where I would, when I would see the first sign
of dysregulation, which I don't think I even
knew that word at the time, to be really honest.
I would, you know, I would often say I would
see that something was happening and I would
wait and I would see if the kid handled it on
their own. And I was viewing it as a behavior.
And I was kind of like watching where this behavior
is going to go. Were they going to get it under
control was essentially what I was thinking.
Or are they going to lose it? Like, where is
this going to go? Yeah. Okay. And I know a lot
of teachers now that do the exact same thing
that I did. And so they wait and I would actually
suggest the opposite. So you don't even have
to know what happened if somebody gets louder
and bigger, right? Or smaller and quieter than
their typical baseline. I'm going to just go
check in with that kid or that young adult then,
right? And if they don't want to talk to me,
that's fine. That's totally fine. When we talk
about helping people build new habits and new
behaviors, the earlier we intervene, the earlier
we check in with them, the earlier we remind
them of this flowchart and this pathway through
and forward, the more likely they are to be able
to access it. Because the further dysregulated
they get, they have less language accessible.
So if you start talking to them, you can actually
make it worse, right? Because that language centers
are also going offline or they're shifting. If
they are older and they have language, they can
get accusatory. This is where you hear kids say,
like, I'm going to get you fired. Right. And
they get real threatening in their language.
And that's a defense mechanism that comes as
their language essentially lessens. And it's
it's part of that fight or flight response. So
being able to intervene earlier is usually helpful.
And I will when I've gone in and co -taught with
teachers, modeled lessons because I've gone in
and. co -taught several lessons with them. Whatever
they're teaching, I just go in and I kind of
model alongside them. And I will tell the kids
right away, hey, did you know that when people
are... kind of starting to get dysregulated.
And I have explained what that is, that all humans,
we have the same tendency as almost every other
animal, which is that we get bigger and louder
and I'll have everybody go, right? And then I'll
be like, no, they get smaller and quieter. And
then we have them kind of like tuck. And then
I give them, I ask them to give examples of.
how that usually sounds for them if they can
think of one when they get bigger and louder.
And so then I always give an example of me being
like, mom, you know, you packed what for lunch,
you know, or whatever it is, or dad, he's lonely
again. No, it's not bad to be angry. And I think
that's what this is undoing, right? It's making
it so. okay it is okay you just have to do this
and this to stay safe or keep your body safe
or to stop like so that you don't get hurt or
so others don't get hurt right it's it's not
the feeling that's the bad thing you know it's
at all it it's how we manage that and and we
can support you to do that when you said you
intervene early I love that what does that look
like sound like You know, what does that mean
when you're saying you're seeing a child that's
getting a little bit louder, a little bit bigger,
or maybe a bit quieter than their baseline and
you intervene? Yeah, what is that? Yes, usually
it's really, really simple, but I make sure to
shift my register into a casual register. I think
most teach myself as a teacher and as a psychologist,
I have a tendency to shift into the register
that I'm in now. And so if I am, if I have a
kid who is dysregulated, I have a certain register
that I tend to operate in. And I think most of
us do, especially when we're on for work or,
you know, or whatever it is. And so. And it tends
to be a little bit higher. And for me, it tends
to be a little bit higher, a little bit clipped.
And so when I have a kid who is dysregulating,
I will really purposely switch into a casual
register. And so I'll go over and I'll say, hey,
is something going on? And I really tried that.
And I tried to make it, I don't want to assume
what's going on. Or, you know, or I'll say like,
hey, it seems like something's up. Yeah. So it's
not accusatory. It's not a demand. It's not pressure,
but it's kind of like nuance, like something
good. Like it's like you're not giving them the
answer. You're not like saying something's wrong.
You're just giving them the opportunity to say
and to maybe just to recognize that in themselves.
Yeah. And sometimes kids are like, they'll recognize
it right away. And sometimes they'll say something
along the lines of like, no, everything's fine.
And I'm like, okay. I'm just checking in because
I noticed that it seemed like something changed.
And if you want to talk about it, you can. And
then if they don't, then I'll say, you can also
check out one of your tools. Which one do you
really like again? And immediately what I'm doing
is I'm... giving them choice. I'm asking them
a question. I'm seeing if they can answer me
because if they can answer me, there's a really
good chance that they'll probably opt into that
tool. If they can't and they say something like,
leave me alone, or if they are really agitated
and they curse, you know, or something like that,
then I know that that kid is more dysregulated
and I might. like then make a different decision.
If I know this kid and I might say like, and
I worked in behavioral classrooms for a long
time. So I might like, my first thought is like,
do I need to clear space for this kid to make
sure that this kid is safe and everyone else
is safe around them? That's usually my first
thought. And that's what I'm assessing for. And
how do I do that in a way that means that this
kid is also protected, that whatever they're
experiencing is not like on display for everybody
else. Yeah. And they're not like the bad kid
too, right? We have to leave our classroom because
he or she did this. It's like none that we'd
also don't want to build bad narrative either.
Do we? We want to like give them privacy to be
able to like co -regulate, ground themselves,
but also manage that kind of. peer -to -peer
judgment too because you can train the staff
team as much as you like but there's also that
peer -to -peer training that is needed right
yeah obviously starts with the adults too but
it's just there's so much to manage within this
situation right to try and combat all possible
means of like low self -esteem shame and all
of those other things that you're kind of trying
to battle yes yeah Yeah, absolutely. And, you
know, and then you're going into that situation.
And as you know, that kid, then you're kind of
running through your kind of mental protocols.
Right. When I was a teacher in those positions,
you know, we often would meet and we would talk
through, you know, how are we going to support
this kid? Often, if we could, we would bring
the kid into the conversation because I don't
want to talk about a kid without their knowledge
and without them having. the right to the information
if we're talking about you you have the right
to the information that's very respectful and
it gives them an opportunity also to feel seen
and heard I was certainly a child that was like
would have been troubled I suppose when I was
in when I was like that kind of age like primary
and I think ultimately for me just being heard
and seen and giving opportunities to regulate
or you know in the way that I wanted to would
have helped me feel so seen and validated that
actually I think it would have eased anything
that I was you know anything big that would have
ever happened because all I really wanted was
to feel seen and heard and understood that really
ultimately like when it comes down to everything
that I was feeling just you doing that it doesn't
take away the big things but just you fit just
you say like including them in the conversation
giving them autonomy helping them to feel seen
and heard nipping the little thing you know when
it's still small and making sure that you tap
in as soon as there you notice it All of those
things are so accessible to everybody. It doesn't
cost anything. All children will benefit from
it, whether they've got a diagnosis, neurodivergent
or not. Every child can go through something
in the morning and they need to feel seen or
heard or need some extra support. I love all
of these things and I love how accessible they
are. The fact that they don't cost anything,
that they are accessible for one teacher in the
room when you've got 30 plus children, you know,
you can do that. If you know your children, if
you have had those conversations before, if you've
taken the time to learn their profile and what
works for them. And I guess that's the point,
right? It comes in that foundation right at the
start of the year. Yes. And it can also be repaired.
You know, I really like a process that we call
five before feedback. And I use it in my clinical
practice and I use it with my educators in, you
know, reach learning services because I have
Dr. Morgan Bidelman. That's my private mental
health practice. And then I have reach learning
services. And we use this strategy in both places,
which is five before feedback, which means I
know five relevant, recent and important to the
kid. pieces of information. It doesn't mean that
I know their grades. It doesn't mean that I know
how many people they live with in their home.
You know, it means that I know that they, you
know, love, they have two meals that they like
and it's mac and cheese or spaghetti with meatballs,
not ground beef meatballs. You know, like it's
knowing those things about a kid that are really
important. We think that they have to be these
long conversations. But really, if we think about
how rapport is built with anybody, aside from
maybe a podcast when you're sitting down and
you're like, here we go. Like in most normal
settings, you know, you don't sit down with a
coworker and have these really long conversations
and build rapport and intimacy in that way, right?
It's in all of these little moments over time,
right? And so the real way that you get to know
somebody is by talking to them in the hallway,
by recognizing what, you know, that they... hey
did you get new shoes right it's about listening
to something that they say and you're just waiting
kind of like gathering information about them
and also you can tell things about you too as
long as it's appropriate right but like we don't
have to be these just kind of like sidewalks
Yeah, like and our kids, they can smell that.
They don't want that. They want a real person.
And so if you know five relevant, recent and
important pieces of information about somebody,
then you're in a pretty good place to be able
to build from there. And there's lots of ways
to assess that. You know, if you have a small
group of kids that you're working with, see if
you can jot down five things. If you have a classroom
of kids, think about. When you write the list,
think about the person at the beginning or the
person at the end, because they might be the
person who's most triggering to you and you don't
have that strong of a relationship with. Or maybe
they're at the end and then try and go build
it with them. You know, I also do it in my clinical
practice, too. Sometimes I'll be like. okay,
I know the trauma, right? I know the trauma history,
but do I know what they did last weekend? That's
important too. Yeah. Yeah, because otherwise
they're not going to trust you or have that relationship
with you to trust you with their big feelings
or trust you with their all sorts of things.
I think any adult in a... position of authority
you know whether you're a teacher or senior leadership
team or run a sports team or anything I think
that's such great advice and gosh if any adult
that worked with children did work like that
god what a difference that would be like that's
the kind of education system that I want to see
and I want to work in I've always pride myself
that I have no idea what the children's levels
are and sometimes not even their diagnosis I'd
have to look it up but I do know like what team
their dad supports of football or what their
pet's name is or yeah their favorite texture
or their favorite food or whatever I know what
their random eclectic phrases mean and I've always
prided myself on that but that's that isn't it
in like a little way it's knowing them and their
soul rather than what's on paper and it takes
commitment to the person and there's certainly
children that I can do that easier with than
others and I think they're exactly the people
that you need to be just spending more time with
and maybe talking to your team you know let's
all write down the children that we always like
don't know as well. And let's just work with
those this week. Let's just like, and this week
is all about just building that relationship
with them. And I wonder if it's the same kids.
I wonder if all of us would say, actually, you
know what? We're really struggling with the relationship
with this child. And imagine how that feels for
that child. Right, to come into this building.
Right. Come into this building and no adult can
do a five for four feedback for me. I bet that
happens. yeah and I bet they feel it without
even realizing I bet they feel it and they might
even feel it at home too you know maybe because
it's maybe because it's of their diagnosis or
whatever that it may be harder to get that information
from or harder to build a relationship with you
know they've got these barriers up that doesn't
mean we don't do it And I think that's just a
really beautiful reminder and kind of homework,
I suppose, for me for this week of really thinking
about, you know, yeah, I have this great relationship
with, you know, 80 % of my class, but what about
that 20 %? You know, they're worthy too. And
I guess I don't know if parents would listen
to this podcast and think the same, you know,
that they know some of their children better
than others and maybe have a more open relationship
with some of their children than others and maybe
really listen to that and think about ways of
that they could utilize now they're thinking
about it. I'm like, hey, well, help me do about
it then. Yes. I mean, I'll speak for myself as
a parent. I feel like in those like middle high
school years, because my kids are now 27 and
28. And so granted, I was also very young when
I was raising them. I was raising them as teenagers.
And I was in my early 20s. And they... I felt
like I definitely got into this space, this rut
as a parent where most of our conversations were,
did you do your homework? Is your is your bag
packed? Where's that homework assignment? Is
it crumpled at the bottom of your backpack? You
know, those kind of things. Very, very kind of
both kind of task oriented and achievement oriented
in a lot of ways. And I share a lot of demands.
Yes. And there is time and place for that, for
sure. That's part of our job as parents. And
I think a regret that I have is that I felt like
that was, I felt like once I had done that, and
probably this is partly because of how young
I was, I was like, oh, I did my job. Like, yay.
You did. You did. Like they were safe. They were
in school. They did what they had to do. Like
ultimately, that is your responsibility. But
there's more than that. There's more. satisfaction
than that isn't there with with the other star
the extra stuff it seems extra but actually it's
the foundation star right right you know and
then and so I worked really hard to shift that
because I I basically, before I had language
of five before feedback, I did not have five
before feedback with my own kids. I knew their
grades. I knew which things they hadn't turned
in. I knew what days they had football practice,
you know, but I didn't know the girl that they
liked and I didn't know what their favorite shows
were. And I didn't know why they thought their
science teacher was so annoying, you know, or
like whatever it was. It's an interest, isn't
it? Again, it's helping them feel seen and heard
and worthy. and then maybe they'll be more interested
in understanding of you and how satisfying is
that as a parent or a teacher or an adult in
their life to have that reciprocal relationship
with a child especially a teenager let's face
it it's hard to get receptacle anything from
a teenager yeah but it starts with us doesn't
it it starts with us being interested maybe we
listen to their album that they're playing on
repeat even though we don't really like it but
we're listening to it because we're like well,
what is it about this that's so interesting?
Or maybe we're testing out a stim that one of
our high support needs students like, you know,
what is it about this that they love so much?
You know, it's not something I would do naturally,
but that doesn't mean that we can't be experimenting
with it and intrigued by it and interested ultimately,
I suppose. Yes. I mean, I'm not a huge fan of
Minecraft, but man, do I know a lot about it
now? Like, you know, isn't it? It's really important
to them. And I feel like when you... do talk
about obsidian their eyes light up doesn't it
and I love that it feels good doesn't it when
you have a little fact yeah we had a boy who
was um year six actually and um he was really
really into like certain animals and I would
go home and I'd research about the animal when
I came in with a new fact that he didn't know
like his eyes would just light up because that
he liked to know the fact certainly I think it
was more than that. He liked to know that I was
thinking of him even away from the class. And
it's that, isn't it? It's those extra that doesn't
take much. It doesn't cost much, but it's a genuine
interest in them and their interest and what
they enjoy. Yes. Yeah. And it meant that when
he was dysregulated, he trusted me because we'd
already built that relationship. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Absolutely. I think when I was in the classroom,
we would teach your core subject and then you'd
switch. So I was reading and writing and social
studies and then somebody else was math and science
and have half day, half day and then switch.
And a lot of times the kids would come back to
my room if they were dysregulated. And it was
actually also something that the teacher and
I had worked out because she was like, I don't
really understand what's going on over there.
But if it works, great. And I was like, I don't
care. They can come in and go back. and forth.
And like, I didn't have a sensory bin. I didn't
have like, this was almost 20 years ago. Like
that was not on the radar, but I have beanbag
chairs in my room. I hated the overhead lightings
for myself. So I never had them on. We had lamps
all over the room. I'm a tea drinker. We had
a kettle in my classroom and there was tea. And
I was like, well, if I'm drinking, you can drink
tea. We always had all of those. We had a refrigerator
that had tortillas and cheese. You could make
a quesadilla for yourself. There was all of these
ways that now I'm like, oh, I get it. Yeah. You're
ahead of the curve and you didn't even know why.
No clue why. Well, in reality, I was doing things
that made me want to spend nine hours in that
room. yeah yeah and yeah I guess that's how that
is the foundations right we are adults if we're
as a teacher feeling like we need to pace and
move around when we're talking well maybe that's
a reasonable adjustment to offer your students
or if we're needing a break for 15 minutes in
the morning and a sit down and a hot drink maybe
that's something that your students you know
it's like remember almost remembering that we're
all human and like looking at yourself and feeling
what you need and then offering that to your
students we've become blind to it though I've
noticed that since um naming emotions in myself
so modeling that for my students I'm much more
aware of what I'm feeling and I realized how
not aware I was before we started doing that
like oh I'm feeling blue god yeah I am feeling
blue like I need to pick me up and before I wouldn't
have even kind of really acknowledged it I'd
have just kind of tried to push it down um but
yeah it's interesting how much we try and ignore
and we're masking as adults and then they're
asking them to also Yes, yes. Yeah, I mean, going
back all the way to kind of the beginning. When
we were talking about level one autism and, you
know, some of those profiles, like those those
can it can be so hard because the regulation
needs can be so intense because they are high
masking. Right. And a lot of times they don't
even realize what's been going on for them because
they weren't diagnosed early. They missed early
intervention in the supports in a lot of ways.
They didn't get a lot of the even like the sensory
experiences in the past. us with those things
because either they were so high masking right
or they were at I hear this a lot too where they
were at school but then at home they would fall
apart and so then they people were brought in
from a behaviorism perspective to try and like
you know essentially reward and and train the
behavior like around the behavior and in reality
a lot of those kids probably needed sensory swings
and, you know, and these different types of like
jumping on a trampoline and all of these things
that would have soothed their nervous systems
a lot more. And so they're just, they are so,
they are so, I think a lot, they have a lot of
anxiety and they're just kind of like anxious.
They're little, like, I mean, I know I just said
that, but their bodies, like you can see how
much tension that they're holding in their bodies
at all times. And it can sometimes come out in,
I have a lot of. teenagers and young adults who
bite their nails, who pull their hair. And a
lot of it is stemming from unmet needs over years
that are kind of like pushed out in other ways
now. And that can be really, really hard as well,
because then they don't like the result of that.
You know, I have a couple of people that I work
with, they have like really bloody fingers, you
know, and we're like, we got to deal with these
needs that we have here because that is not helping
you. That is, you know, and they're like, well,
could we wear gloves or could we do this or that?
Yes, for the immediate, right? To make sure that
this doesn't get infected and that you're not
causing more harm. And also, let's also address
this underlying. Yeah, let's find a way of you
meeting whatever need that is in a more safe
way or why you have that need in the first place.
You know, maybe the lights just need to be dim
or maybe this noise just needs to be awful. Yeah,
being curious is a definite. the good uh start
isn't it um you've got some courses haven't you
uh coming out do you want to explain a little
bit about those who they're for and how and who
can access those sure we have an evaluation course
that is for parents i really kind of think about
it in three ways because these are the most common
that i hear but one is that the they're concerned
about their child and the teacher isn't. And
so how to kind of navigate that, if you're concerned
about your kid and your teacher is also concerned,
or if you're not concerned about your child and
then the teacher is, right? And so those are
kind of three spaces where I hear families get
into kind of just a little bit of a roadblock
around like, what do I do? How do I move forward?
And there are opportunities for support and evaluation
through the school. school there's opportunities
for evaluation through the medical model and
potential supports there you could do both you
could do neither and so that can just feel like
a lot of decision fatigue and the course is really
designed to walk parents through each of those
kind of pathways. And there's also prototypes
of different situations. So learning disability
versus autism. And you can go through and hear
the profiles and the families and how they went
through a decision -making process and gives
parents the same decision -making process that
they can use for themselves. And then there's
also just a ton of resources. There's a form
letter that you can use. There's a note -taking
template when you go and meet with a doctor so
that you can make... sure that you get all the
information. Because I don't know if you're anything
like me and many parents that I've seen, they'll
come and they'll have pages of packets of paper
and they're like, hold on, it's somewhere. Let
me find, I think I saw a note here. And it kind
of can help organize your thinking for you. We've
had our own team members use some of the forms
and things. Like they asked us after we made
them to use them. So that felt like a good time
for helpful. So that's available. I would say
that that's a resource that's really for families
that are kind of at the beginning of this journey
where they're saying like, maybe my kid needs
something more. And then we also have some group
parenting courses. I'm sorry, group, just like
group parenting workshops that are going to be
running in January. And those are for middle
schoolers and high schoolers. So kind of those
middle grades. These, I feel like I keep hearing
from. so many families that they read the books,
but a lot of the books are for younger kids who
are neurodivergent, right? Or they're about teenagers
in general, but not for the neurodivergent teen.
And so this was really a hope to fill that need
for people and give them a space to talk about
the big things that are coming up for them and
get resources. We talk about relationships, romantic
relationships and friendships. We talk about
technology, social media, ways to navigate that.
We talk about getting ready for. transitions
and how to help our kids in the middle years
kind of get ready for whatever that next phase
of life is, if they're going to continue to live
at home, but they're going to work, if they're
going to go to some type of university, if they
are going to go into the workforce, you know,
and how to help kind of prepare them in a way
that doesn't feel like they're just being, you
know, kicked out of the nest, but really that
they are ready. A lot of our parents have anxiety
about their child being ready to leave the home
and what that looks like for them. And then they're
also in this kind of place where it's like, I
do all these things for my kid. I support my
kid. And how do I transfer some of that onto
them, but in a way that doesn't leave them feeling
more overwhelmed, right? Right. And weird transition
for parents to get out of that. role too. And
what that looks like, it's definitely a question
I get asked all the time. It's so neat. I mean,
God, the teenage years is so hard to navigate
anyway, let alone if you have a neurodivergent
child. So yeah, I can imagine that would be incredibly
useful for so many parents. And where can they
find more information on these things if it's
of interest? Sure. They can go to drmorganbeitelman
.com. They can join our newsletter to see when
the next round. of groups come out because we're
going to do them one in January and we'll do
one in March more than likely. And then we might
do one in April. We're not going to do anything
in May because May is a crazy, crazy month. And
so really we want to be incredibly responsive
to the needs of families. If we get to the end
of January and someone's like, I don't want to
wait till March. Can we do one in February and
we have enough interest? We'll do one in February
also. And so, yeah. So if you're interested.
You can go to drmorganbibleman .com if you're
at the beginning of this journey and you're trying
to figure out evaluation. The course is also
available there and that you can buy at any time.
And if you are further along, but you're like,
those resources sound great. You could also just
download the resources. I don't think that that
would be great if you're brand new to the journey
because I think you'll get the resources and
be like, what do I do? yeah yeah definitely the
list will overwhelm the better at that stage
there's so much absolutely i'll also leave any
of your links and website in the description
below this podcast so it's easily findable for
everybody thank you gosh morgan i could talk
to you for so long we're gonna have to get you
on again I was like, I would love to talk again.
We didn't even get to talk teenagers. No, maybe
in the new year we can talk about neurodivergent
teenagers because that is a huge topic on its
own. I really love talking to you about the,
you know, the neurodivergence in children and
how to navigate that as a teacher and actually
having such. accessible steps that are doable
manageable affordable for anybody who can start
today and it will make a massive difference to
all of the children in the class and I think
we have to start there it makes sense that this
conversation started there because without that
how can we then support you know developing children
and teenagers so um yeah I'm so grateful for
this conversation and I'm certainly taking a
lot from it this week and I hope everybody else
is is too that's been listening Thank you. It's
been such a joy talking with you. I could just
keep blabbing. I loved it. Also, I know if people
obviously can join your courses and see your
website, but if people want to find you just
to ask the odd question about what we've been
talking about today too, I know I'll leave the
stuff in the description below because they might
want to reach out to you with a question. Is
that okay? Yes, please. Please reach out anytime.
I also do professional development training.
I do them all over the place. So happy to do
that as well. And I do one -on -one coaching
for neurodivergent teens and young adults. And
so if that's something that somebody is interested
in and we have availability and our calendars
align, like happy to support or refer to other
people that might be a good fit. Amazing. Thank
you so much, Morgan. I am so pleased that we've
had this conversation today. And my homework,
as well as everybody else listening, is going
to be starting off with those five things. You
know, can we name those things about all of our
children that we support? I think that is a great
start. Thank you, Morgan. Thank you.