WEBVTT

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Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education

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teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything

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communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson

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ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged

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4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in

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the field answering your questions and sharing

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our knowledge and experience working alongside

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our beautiful young people. Let's get started.

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First of all, a message about our sponsor. Today's

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link in the description below to make the switch

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today. Now to the episode. This is a little bit

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different. I don't normally do a little extra

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introduction. But there are some topics that

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we talk about in the podcast this week that might

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be seen as controversial. I just wanted to make

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it really clear what my intentions were and what

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Victoria's intentions were before this conversation.

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I think Victoria actually handled it incredibly

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well. And I'd like to think that she made it

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very clear that these aren't suggestions for

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everybody and that looking at gut health and

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diet. And sensory needs and moving out of school

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and all of those quite extreme measures in order

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to support your child wouldn't be taken lightly

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and aren't a blanket rule for everybody. Also,

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her intention certainly wasn't to diminish her

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child's neurodiversity or autism. It was more

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so that her child feels comfortable and healthy

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and well. listen to the podcast it's incredibly

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interesting her story is incredibly interesting

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but just know that it does talk about diet and

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gut health in regards to sensory seeking behavior

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and and trying to kind of reduce that and reduce

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that anxiety and reduce those kind of extreme

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seeking needs that were making her son feel very

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unhappy but also just know that all children

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are individual and you really do need to know

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what's best for you and if you are looking at

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taking medication, not taking medication, changing

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your child's diet or doing anything like that,

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then do seek medical advice. Go to your GP, get

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a nutritionist like she did, you know, speak

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to your occupational therapist just to make sure

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that it is safe for you and your child and you

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as a family and it's the right thing for you.

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Okay, enough said. Enjoy the episode. Hello everybody

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and welcome to the Sensory Classroom podcast.

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My name is Jordan and today I'm joined by Victoria,

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who is actually a former police detective, although

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that's not what we're going to be talking about

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today. We're going to be talking about her experiences

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as a parent and particularly around the topic

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of gut health and what she has noticed in and

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around that. topic and conversation. I'm very

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excited to talk about this topic today. We haven't

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spoken about this topic yet on this podcast so

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I'm very excited to introduce Victoria. Hi Victoria.

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Thank you for having me. You are so welcome.

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I've been looking forward to this chat. Like

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I said in the introduction, we haven't even dabbled

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at all into the topic of food and the impact

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that that has on our lovely young people. Let's

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start with who you are, what your background

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is, because it all contributes to this conversation.

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Yeah, it does. Thank you. Yeah, I think, so as

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you said, my background is in investigation.

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I'm an investigator by nature, I think. I like

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to be a bit nosy. I like to understand and I

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like to feel informed. So with those few things

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in mind, when... Our youngest son was diagnosed

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with autistic spectrum disorder and a sensory

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processing disorder. But way before that diagnosis,

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way before that, as a tiny babe, he had a lactose

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intolerance when he was born. So feeding became

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quite challenging. We noticed this. We'd worked

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with it with our eldest. Funnily enough, same

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thing with our eldest, lactose intolerance. Something

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in the gut. completely incapable of digesting

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the sugars in milk. So lots of understanding,

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I think, in the medical profession that this

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was happening. It was happening more frequently,

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but I didn't really understand why. I just knew

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I needed to address it. So we were encouraged

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to use alternative milks or in our youngest son's

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case, the neutralizing of the lactose wasn't

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working. We had to go on to a very special milk

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for him. So just to help that. that gut. So what

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the symptoms were for him were extreme cramping

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at a feed. And they were what I got to observe

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is as soon as he was, he was hungry all the time.

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And when he was feeding, he was cramping and

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would pull off of a feed in pain. And this was

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really young, really, really young. Yeah, it's

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really, really young. Yeah, at that point. So

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a baby in arms, still feeding under six months.

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But for the first year, he had a supportive milk

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to try and help his gut progress. Right. As we

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got older, there was a lot of activity that we

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were observing. This is a very active child,

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desperately does not want to sit down and doesn't

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enjoy some surfaces that he's sitting on. So

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carpet and certain things became quite sensory.

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Leather, the differences, the exploration that

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would go into these surfaces was something else

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I had not witnessed before. So, yeah, it was

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just observing all of these things. It's the

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investigator, isn't it? It's like, what's happening

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with my child? Yeah, exactly. And you said he

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was the youngest child. So how many children

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had you had before him that you could kind of

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do the comparison with, I suppose? Yeah, no,

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I have just the one before him who is... Yeah,

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he's nine years older. So there was a bit of

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a gap as well. And I was thinking, well, let's

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see. Let's see, you know, what happens here.

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The beginning started the same. Both had transient

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lactose intolerance. One came out of it about

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a year. I don't think our youngest ever really

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came out of it. That lactose intolerance was

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trying to show itself as something else. So that

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was way before any autism diagnosis or any sensory

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processing diagnosis. But it became painfully

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clear just how important. the gut was to our

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son and how he was developing because I didn't

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realize that there was a connection until a nutritionist

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was working with us to say it looks like the

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gut, there's something in the gut that's aggravating

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him. I think we eat fairly common and relatively

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healthy foods. Most of what I was doing at the

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time, working full time there at school and nursery

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and everything I do goes in the slow cooker or

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gets ready in the oven. And when I come home

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from work and everybody's starving, you remember

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that time? And they all come in and it's like,

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right, feed me now. And I'm like, yeah, they

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just want crisps and biscuits. But you're like,

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I'm there going. From the oven. So it's the slow

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cooker queen, definitely. Was food something?

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I suppose it's maybe hard to answer this and

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hard to even know about him, really. But was

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food, even regardless of the gut health intolerances,

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was food as far as texture goes? Because you

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mentioned that his interest in texture, even

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just the texture of food, was that something

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that you noticed in him too? I noticed not so

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much texture, but volume in that there never

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seemed to be enough. You know, the normal sort

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of parameters you would expect for I'm full,

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that didn't happen. I'm just going to keep eating.

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Interoception, really knowing what's happening

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inside, not knowing if he's thirsty, full. For

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some children, it's not knowing if they're full

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or hungry or thirsty or not or hot or cold. I

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suppose for him, he just didn't feel that full

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feeling. No. There was a portion on his plate

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that was equivalent to his brother that was like

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nine years. older and and he was still going

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and reaching for more and I'm thinking you can't

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possibly be just rest for a minute have a drink

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try you know something thinking that's a lot

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of food for a little one and he wasn't he was

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tall and you know 90th centile as you on those

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measurement things and he's tall and he's broad

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uh but the appetite really surprised me I thought

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well I need to be a bit careful here because

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I'm not sure you know that it can be problematic

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if you get too big So it's like, no stop, you

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know, then yeah, you have to kind of monitor

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that, don't you? As soon as he could open a cupboard,

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he was in it. As soon as he could open a cupboard,

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he was constantly at the food. It's quite oral

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seeking as well. It would be often mouth things.

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So it was probably a bit of the like interoception,

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not feeling his full, but also that wonderful,

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like our tongue is. our exposed muscle right

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you get so much feedback if he's sensory seeking

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so much feedback through the tongue the tastes

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the textures the crunch that everything so if

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he's seeking that and doesn't feel full it's

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just a recipe for It's wonderful that you do

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that because it was a sensory observation that,

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like you say, it's not something... When he just

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started crawling, my husband was in the garden

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and he turned around because he heard a crunch.

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So he just crawled outside and he heard this

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crunch and thought, what was that? Turned around

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to find our youngest is on a garden snail. Oh

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no. A wonderful sensory experience. It was an

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instance and he didn't understand where that

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was coming from or anything. So it was really

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quite distressing for him. But everything went

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in the mouth. So I remember an intense period

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of time of everything on the floor was going

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in. It was a typical developmental stage. It's

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just lots of children then grow out of it after,

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what, 18 months? They start to learn what's edible

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and non -edible and then that stops, doesn't

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it? But obviously for some children, these sensory

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seeking or seeking children, he was exploring.

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Yeah, he would explore his world through his

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mouth. That was certainly what I felt he was

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doing at that point. There's a sensory seeking

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without a shadow of a doubt. But he's learning

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about the work by putting everything in. checking

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it out you know sometimes you take it back out

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again as well you know it's like oh no i don't

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want that i we tried to give him a dummy to try

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and help the whole but no no he wasn't having

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that what that was that was done it's instantly

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rejected yes the ear of a soft toy so there's

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a lot of sensory touch as well particular ear

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on a particular rabbit that you really don't

00:11:04.169 --> 00:11:06.429
want to lose do you as a parent do not lose their

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rabbit instantly calming instantly calming from

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the uh from the ear of the being in particular

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areas was really important to his regulation

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and sense of self sense of self -confirmation

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was pica ever mentioned by the nutritionist no

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no i just wonder i mean yeah i as um i've had

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lots of oral kind of seeking children through

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the years and only recently i've learned about

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pico it's spelled p -i -c and it's an intense

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interest in exploring the world through usually

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eating though not just mouthing usually eating

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it's like usually things that are natural earth

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type things like clay sand bark gravel stone

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soil that kind of talk those kind of things and

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that is also linked with yeah seem to be linked

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with a lack of zinc or you know in your diet

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so again it's coming back to yes anxiety yes

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sensory seeking but it's all coming back to this

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topic of what is missing in our system and what

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our body's trying to find and we would find it

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through vitamins and multivitamins or whatever

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it is but our children don't understand that

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and they're trying to find this sustenance their

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body is seeking through snails and Twigs and

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all the other things. And this is exactly what

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happened at A &E. One day we were picking up

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from nursery. There was some fear that there

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hadn't been an observation at a particular point

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and they weren't sure how many Lego bricks he'd

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managed to get in before. And so we were asked

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to take him to A &E and just check. Absolutely.

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Nothing was going to be causing a block in the

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tummy or anything else. As a result of that A

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&E appointment, the medical advice really was

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that he shouldn't be putting things in his mouth

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at this age and he's probably missing something.

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We had to push a little bit for a blood test

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to say, I can't work out what's missing from

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his diet. He has a very balanced diet of red

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meats, white meats, carbohydrates. For me, all

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the nutritional elements were present. Because

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that's not common with autism. You know, it's

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very common for autism. I suppose he's sensory

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seeking. If they were sensory avoiding with the

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textures and the taste, then they often have

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a very bland diet. I suppose if he's a very sensory

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seeking child, he'd probably quite like all the

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textures and the taste of a variety of food.

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So in that sense, you were doing okay. You know,

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he was eating a... He was eating a very varied

00:13:43.149 --> 00:13:46.909
diet, which is probably in my ignorance in having

00:13:46.909 --> 00:13:49.809
a very, very basic understanding of the word

00:13:49.809 --> 00:13:53.049
autism before they mentioned it. I was expecting

00:13:53.049 --> 00:13:55.950
non -eye contact. I had it. Fussy foods. No,

00:13:56.029 --> 00:13:58.529
I didn't have that. Non -sleeping. No, I didn't

00:13:58.529 --> 00:14:02.009
have that. And the list I had, it didn't conform

00:14:02.009 --> 00:14:06.070
at all. Confusing, isn't it? When you've got

00:14:06.070 --> 00:14:08.669
an idea of what something should be in your head.

00:14:09.370 --> 00:14:11.230
And then you've got this child in front of you

00:14:11.230 --> 00:14:13.309
and these words are being fired at you. And there's

00:14:13.309 --> 00:14:16.110
a mismatch in your mind. It's really confusing.

00:14:16.230 --> 00:14:18.549
And then you're not given any maybe more information

00:14:18.549 --> 00:14:21.210
or anywhere to turn on what this means for your

00:14:21.210 --> 00:14:23.309
child. Because it is different. It's such an

00:14:23.309 --> 00:14:26.470
umbrella term. And there are things that are

00:14:26.470 --> 00:14:29.990
similar, which makes it autism. But there is

00:14:29.990 --> 00:14:32.090
so much difference. I've worked with about four

00:14:32.090 --> 00:14:34.610
or five hundred children in my career. And I

00:14:34.610 --> 00:14:37.529
could not tell you that one is the same as the

00:14:37.529 --> 00:14:40.519
other. They share similarities, might share similar

00:14:40.519 --> 00:14:42.940
interests or whatever. But they are, yeah, so,

00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:45.720
so varied and so different. So it's really confusing

00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:47.639
for parents to navigate that, isn't it? When

00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:50.720
you've got such a very basic level of understanding

00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:53.500
and it's headline, you know, it really isn't

00:14:53.500 --> 00:14:55.460
the depth or anything else. It is literally,

00:14:55.500 --> 00:14:58.580
like you say, the umbrella that everybody talks

00:14:58.580 --> 00:15:01.519
about. There's so much that we don't talk about

00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:03.539
that is actually happening here. Like you say,

00:15:03.580 --> 00:15:06.159
so it can be very confusing as a parent. For

00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:08.820
me, I thought, yes, he's very active. You know,

00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:11.240
he doesn't like to sit, but okay, he's just very

00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:13.639
active and he needs wearing out a little bit.

00:15:13.700 --> 00:15:16.259
He needs lots of activity. He wasn't picking

00:15:16.259 --> 00:15:20.039
those boxes that you knew of as autism. Yes.

00:15:20.259 --> 00:15:23.019
So I suppose, then where do you go with that?

00:15:23.240 --> 00:15:26.200
Do you go to Google? Like, what did you do? Well,

00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:28.899
it was the doctor at A &E that said, I'm going

00:15:28.899 --> 00:15:31.960
to refer you through to a pathway and see if

00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:33.700
you can have a look because he's not sitting

00:15:33.700 --> 00:15:36.899
here happily at all, is he? I was like, no, he's

00:15:36.899 --> 00:15:39.019
not sitting happily. They kind of put two and

00:15:39.019 --> 00:15:41.100
two together, the mouthing, the developmental

00:15:41.100 --> 00:15:44.919
stages kind of in that typical chronological

00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:48.440
age link, the sensory seeking. They were kind

00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:50.779
of thinking it themselves. A little bit of frustration

00:15:50.779 --> 00:15:55.379
and aggression that was possibly young for...

00:15:55.629 --> 00:15:58.730
you know, he's three, he's got good verbal skills.

00:15:59.309 --> 00:16:02.710
So why isn't he communicating? Why is he choosing

00:16:02.710 --> 00:16:05.269
to communicate this way? Exactly that. So that

00:16:05.269 --> 00:16:08.970
sort of ticked some boxes and we ended up very

00:16:08.970 --> 00:16:14.269
quickly in a diagnostic system, which was very

00:16:14.269 --> 00:16:16.490
full on for about six months, I think was very,

00:16:16.529 --> 00:16:19.080
very full on. But one of the major things that

00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:22.159
came out was his sensory seeking, sensory processing,

00:16:22.379 --> 00:16:26.299
how that is very, very different. Lots of sensitivity

00:16:26.299 --> 00:16:29.360
around the shoulders. Days where he just couldn't

00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:32.960
be touched there, could not. So when he was at

00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:34.659
school and someone puts their hand on his shoulders,

00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:37.200
he could react in a myriad of ways. That's so

00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:40.279
interesting. But in some ways, people can be

00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:44.179
so sensory seeking and yet in the same body,

00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:48.240
they're sensory avoiding. And that's really hard

00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:50.139
to navigate if you don't know their profile.

00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:52.200
So how useful to you, right, from the offer.

00:16:52.220 --> 00:16:54.419
I don't know if every parent gets that much information

00:16:54.419 --> 00:16:57.379
in that much detail, actually, that you're getting

00:16:57.379 --> 00:16:59.539
that understanding of your child that, OK, he's

00:16:59.539 --> 00:17:03.080
seeking in this area, but he's, you know, avoidant

00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:07.079
in, like, touch or... And hearing. So avoidant

00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:10.430
in touch and hearing and seeking with... some

00:17:10.430 --> 00:17:13.329
touch, you know, a bit very much on his terms,

00:17:13.349 --> 00:17:15.910
you know, it's very, very much on his terms.

00:17:16.009 --> 00:17:18.349
And it just took us a few years to really observe

00:17:18.349 --> 00:17:21.430
him and understand that. But what we could also

00:17:21.430 --> 00:17:25.690
see is that there wasn't a good bit for him where

00:17:25.690 --> 00:17:29.309
he was. So he couldn't manage, you know, everybody's

00:17:29.309 --> 00:17:31.410
doing the very best they can with everything

00:17:31.410 --> 00:17:34.250
they had. And we were just heading down the lines

00:17:34.250 --> 00:17:37.089
of, you know, we need ADHD type medication here

00:17:37.089 --> 00:17:38.759
or something like that. Because you were seeing

00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:42.480
that hyperactivity. Absolutely. We were putting

00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:45.039
the brakes on that a little bit to say, I think

00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:48.079
since day one, we've actually had an issue with

00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:51.140
the gut. And I'm exploring with a nutritionist

00:17:51.140 --> 00:17:55.680
about the gut and whether calming that will support

00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:58.240
the behaviors that we're seeing at the moment.

00:17:58.279 --> 00:18:00.619
So I'd really like to support that natural path

00:18:00.619 --> 00:18:04.319
first. I'm not saying no, I'm just saying it's

00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:06.430
not my first port of call. Yeah, and I suppose

00:18:06.430 --> 00:18:09.750
that makes sense if with all of his history from

00:18:09.750 --> 00:18:11.470
a young baby, it makes sense that you would go

00:18:11.470 --> 00:18:14.490
to that, that that was his difficulties early

00:18:14.490 --> 00:18:16.549
on. When you didn't know anything else, that

00:18:16.549 --> 00:18:19.839
was the main... thing your brain would go back

00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:23.220
to that yeah absolutely we those problems hadn't

00:18:23.220 --> 00:18:26.279
gone away they hadn't um they hadn't changed

00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:29.640
we were still having you know extremes with the

00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:32.019
bowel as well which is obviously where we see

00:18:32.019 --> 00:18:34.319
the you know the trouble with nutrition isn't

00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:37.119
it or the trouble with our digestive system is

00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.059
how the bowel is behaving and that you know we

00:18:40.059 --> 00:18:42.400
were we were having the either explosive bowel

00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:46.519
calcified bowel or very you know extreme difficulty

00:18:46.519 --> 00:18:49.180
and you think wow there's no it's a sign isn't

00:18:49.180 --> 00:18:51.480
it that something isn't right something isn't

00:18:51.480 --> 00:18:55.059
quite right so that's what we we were letting

00:18:55.059 --> 00:18:57.619
other parents know that if you've got this you

00:18:57.619 --> 00:19:00.059
might want to explore this if you if you want

00:19:00.059 --> 00:19:02.500
to this is open as well there's nutritionists

00:19:02.500 --> 00:19:05.119
to work with that for us were particularly helpful

00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:09.160
we took will's diet right back to bone broth

00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:10.819
we actually did it as a whole family i was not

00:19:10.819 --> 00:19:13.180
popular with my teenage son at that point don't

00:19:13.180 --> 00:19:15.299
you really you kind of have to do it all together

00:19:15.299 --> 00:19:18.779
to kind of do that yeah you have to do it together

00:19:18.779 --> 00:19:20.480
otherwise it would feel really cruel wouldn't

00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:24.200
it absolutely it for us it felt awful you know

00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:27.400
and i'm trying to get my teenage son in the end

00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:29.599
he ended up with fabulous results himself he

00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:31.500
said actually that's really really good everything

00:19:31.500 --> 00:19:35.559
right back so that as you're adding things you

00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:38.779
could then see what was flaring up certain the

00:19:38.779 --> 00:19:41.740
advice we had from the nutritionist is that yes

00:19:41.740 --> 00:19:43.339
you've cut out wheat you've cut out that you've

00:19:43.339 --> 00:19:46.039
cut out the usual suspects and you're not seeing

00:19:46.039 --> 00:19:48.839
any change but what people don't seem to understand

00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:51.680
first is what you must do is clear the gut first

00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:54.279
he said so what we do is we need to clear out

00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:57.019
the nasties and i wanted a an expert to help

00:19:57.019 --> 00:19:59.759
me because of his age thinking it's one thing

00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:02.000
to detox myself but it's something else with

00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:04.720
a small child that doesn't stop eating how am

00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:07.700
i gonna help him manage this How am I going to

00:20:07.700 --> 00:20:10.779
convince him that bone broth is a good thing

00:20:10.779 --> 00:20:13.920
for him? So how did you do that? Because I can

00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:15.940
imagine there's lots of parents of autistic children

00:20:15.940 --> 00:20:19.680
thinking, God, bone broth, I'd be lucky if I

00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:21.680
got, you know, chicken nuggets into my child.

00:20:21.779 --> 00:20:25.160
So how do you navigate that? So he would have

00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:28.759
been, where were we, about eight years old at

00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:30.559
this point. So he's been struggling with this

00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:33.339
tummy for quite some time. So we had a bit of

00:20:33.339 --> 00:20:36.230
buy -in. on the basis that he was distressed

00:20:36.230 --> 00:20:40.150
by his gut's behavior. And we couldn't work out

00:20:40.150 --> 00:20:42.569
if the anxiety he was struggling with was caused

00:20:42.569 --> 00:20:46.109
by the gut behavior or the gut behavior was because

00:20:46.109 --> 00:20:49.549
of the anxiety. So we encouraged him that we

00:20:49.549 --> 00:20:51.990
were all going to do it and that we made a big

00:20:51.990 --> 00:20:56.170
game of it, a big game of it, from buying the

00:20:56.170 --> 00:20:59.109
carrots and buying the, or finding an organic

00:20:59.109 --> 00:21:01.269
chicken in the first instance, you know, finding

00:21:01.269 --> 00:21:03.819
an organic chicken. Having it delivered to the

00:21:03.819 --> 00:21:07.019
hat, making just a big game of it and really

00:21:07.019 --> 00:21:10.579
allowing him to explore the things that go with

00:21:10.579 --> 00:21:13.200
it. So the washy hands and yeah, by all means,

00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:15.380
touch the carcass. I wouldn't ordinarily do that,

00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:16.859
but yeah, you need to touch the carcass, touch

00:21:16.859 --> 00:21:18.299
the carcass. Now we go back and wash our hands.

00:21:19.220 --> 00:21:23.079
Yeah. Yeah. Making it, allowing him some control

00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:26.480
over it, I suppose. That was the big buy -in

00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:28.700
from him was the fact that once we've made this

00:21:28.700 --> 00:21:33.529
big pot, huge pot of bone broth. that William

00:21:33.529 --> 00:21:35.930
could come to it at any point and help himself.

00:21:36.630 --> 00:21:39.529
So it gave him autonomy, which was quite a big

00:21:39.529 --> 00:21:42.930
buy -in from William to say, I can have as much

00:21:42.930 --> 00:21:44.569
of that as I like. No one's going to tell me

00:21:44.569 --> 00:21:48.029
no. If I'm hungry, I can have that. The bone

00:21:48.029 --> 00:21:50.769
broth thing lasted about a week. The guidance

00:21:50.769 --> 00:21:53.910
we'd had was to wait until the bowel firmed up.

00:21:54.349 --> 00:21:56.910
So once it was firmed up, but he was passing

00:21:56.910 --> 00:21:59.369
quite happily. We probably got rid of everything

00:21:59.369 --> 00:22:01.789
that we need to get rid of. It took about a week,

00:22:01.809 --> 00:22:05.750
six days to a week. Bowel firmed up and he started

00:22:05.750 --> 00:22:12.549
to calm. So the outbursts were less. The running

00:22:12.549 --> 00:22:16.349
off was less. The, you know, the thumpy hands

00:22:16.349 --> 00:22:19.789
was less. And I thought, okay, so let's just

00:22:19.789 --> 00:22:21.910
see what happens here. We started to introduce

00:22:21.910 --> 00:22:25.579
organic meats. Really stewed. So, you know, very

00:22:25.579 --> 00:22:28.420
minimal chewing, organic vegetables, kept it

00:22:28.420 --> 00:22:31.940
as clean as we could. And six weeks later, gradually

00:22:31.940 --> 00:22:35.579
introducing these, you know, last things were

00:22:35.579 --> 00:22:39.779
salads and fruits. So gradually introducing these

00:22:39.779 --> 00:22:43.279
things, we saw a big change. Is there anything

00:22:43.279 --> 00:22:46.160
that you added to his diet and then went back

00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:49.819
on it because you started to see, you know, some

00:22:49.819 --> 00:22:54.009
uncomfortable? in his body again yeah so we kept

00:22:54.009 --> 00:22:57.890
him clean for about a year completely clean and

00:22:57.890 --> 00:23:00.430
then of course he we moved we moved from the

00:23:00.430 --> 00:23:04.509
channel island no fast food to the uk quite a

00:23:04.509 --> 00:23:08.490
bit and of course peer support over a few friends

00:23:08.490 --> 00:23:13.269
that what's mcdonald's exactly like i don't want

00:23:13.269 --> 00:23:16.710
to ban you from these things i need to exactly

00:23:16.710 --> 00:23:19.910
that because the more i ban it the more you're

00:23:19.910 --> 00:23:22.480
going to want it We spoke about that last week

00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:25.440
in the podcast, actually. So yeah, exactly. So

00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:29.200
let's work with it and see, you know, try it

00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:32.339
and see how you feel. So after that year of keeping

00:23:32.339 --> 00:23:34.619
it very clean, I think it took that long for

00:23:34.619 --> 00:23:37.720
him to feel comfortable in his body again. So

00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:41.759
although he was much calmer for us to manage,

00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:46.240
it was so much easier to speak to him. That the

00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:48.440
difficulty we had in getting him to slow down

00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:51.380
so that we could talk. so that we could get it

00:23:51.380 --> 00:23:54.359
in it was much much simpler at that point understanding

00:23:54.359 --> 00:23:59.079
was improved as well as his whole absolutely

00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:02.400
and we all saw benefits they're cutting the dairy

00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:04.980
out i'd had a rash on my arm for as young as

00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:07.000
i can remember i've always had this rash on the

00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:09.559
back of my arm i didn't realize i had a slight

00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:11.859
reaction to dairy it's very slight some things

00:24:11.859 --> 00:24:13.880
you never brought back so something so things

00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:15.819
like dairy you never put back into your diet

00:24:15.819 --> 00:24:19.809
after the year we have Sorry, for the first year

00:24:19.809 --> 00:24:22.470
it was very, very clean. Now he experiments,

00:24:22.509 --> 00:24:25.210
but he does it in, again, he has an element of

00:24:25.210 --> 00:24:26.750
autonomy with this. It's like, right, I'm going

00:24:26.750 --> 00:24:29.990
to eat some chips. Okay, have some chips. And

00:24:29.990 --> 00:24:31.630
then the next day it's like, I'm going to have

00:24:31.630 --> 00:24:34.470
some bread. Just remind you he had chips yesterday.

00:24:35.089 --> 00:24:39.029
Potato seems to cause him a problem. Right. The

00:24:39.029 --> 00:24:42.369
wheat's in bread, depending if it's highly fermented,

00:24:42.470 --> 00:24:44.630
if it's a really good sourdough, he can just

00:24:44.630 --> 00:24:47.880
about manage it without having anything. You

00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:50.180
know, gluten -free breads even can cause him

00:24:50.180 --> 00:24:52.319
some difficulty. Processed, aren't they? There's

00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:54.960
quite a refined flour. I think it is a lot of

00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:57.900
the processing. The cleaner he is, the healthier,

00:24:58.180 --> 00:25:00.759
the happier he is, should I say that. I know

00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:03.099
he's healthier, but he's definitely happier.

00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:06.279
So that, I think there was just a very big connection

00:25:06.279 --> 00:25:08.480
there for him. It makes so much sense as well,

00:25:08.500 --> 00:25:10.480
doesn't it? That if somebody's feeling uncomfortable

00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:13.569
in their body, Let's imagine he does have interoception,

00:25:13.630 --> 00:25:15.829
you know, he doesn't feel full. So he's not really

00:25:15.829 --> 00:25:18.650
reading his body is what his body is needing.

00:25:18.890 --> 00:25:21.289
That's the first, like, that's the first kind

00:25:21.289 --> 00:25:24.730
of statement. But then also imagine that you've

00:25:24.730 --> 00:25:26.569
got an intolerance, so you're so uncomfortable

00:25:26.569 --> 00:25:28.109
in your body, but you're also not being able

00:25:28.109 --> 00:25:31.289
to read those signals as what they are. It makes

00:25:31.289 --> 00:25:33.490
so much sense to me that you would then, with

00:25:33.490 --> 00:25:36.589
all this going on in your body, just as a baseline,

00:25:36.990 --> 00:25:40.920
that then you would. struggle to receive and

00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:43.319
interpret information you would struggle to moderate

00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:45.960
your behaviors you would struggle to do all these

00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:48.160
things because you've already got so much going

00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:51.079
on as a baseline in your body it makes so much

00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:53.599
sense to me that almost clearing out that gut

00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:57.460
health issue for him yes means that he can then

00:25:57.460 --> 00:25:59.539
his body can focus on the other things that maybe

00:25:59.539 --> 00:26:01.619
he finds a little bit more tricky like receiving

00:26:01.619 --> 00:26:03.619
information interpreting information managing

00:26:03.619 --> 00:26:06.089
his regulation and all of those things Absolutely.

00:26:06.089 --> 00:26:09.750
He was open. He was more open before he was quite

00:26:09.750 --> 00:26:12.710
closed down to being in whatever was happening

00:26:12.710 --> 00:26:15.170
within him at that particular point that he couldn't.

00:26:15.190 --> 00:26:17.289
We didn't have the language to be able to express

00:26:17.289 --> 00:26:20.849
it. And I mean, whilst he's verbal, these are

00:26:20.849 --> 00:26:22.470
big feelings, aren't they, when they're in your

00:26:22.470 --> 00:26:24.970
body? How do we express those really big feelings?

00:26:25.089 --> 00:26:27.309
That's not easy when you're a little person,

00:26:27.390 --> 00:26:30.829
is it? you know, socially, in a socially acceptable

00:26:30.829 --> 00:26:34.069
manner, express those feelings. I know adults

00:26:34.069 --> 00:26:37.049
that struggle with that. When any of us are feeling

00:26:37.049 --> 00:26:39.150
in pain or uncomfortable, it's really, we find

00:26:39.150 --> 00:26:42.130
it difficult to moderate ourselves. So yeah,

00:26:42.250 --> 00:26:45.950
I mean, add autism on top of that and aid and

00:26:45.950 --> 00:26:48.970
everything. No wonder, you know, he was... Well,

00:26:48.970 --> 00:26:51.509
the reading we did was around the gut psychology.

00:26:51.809 --> 00:26:57.089
So it was the gut psychology diet that we followed.

00:26:57.630 --> 00:26:59.910
with the support of a nutritionist to make sure

00:26:59.910 --> 00:27:01.769
that we were completely safe all the way through

00:27:01.769 --> 00:27:03.769
it, that we wasn't going to be missing out on

00:27:03.769 --> 00:27:06.130
any essential nutrition at all just by going

00:27:06.130 --> 00:27:07.829
back to bone broth for six days, because that

00:27:07.829 --> 00:27:10.190
was breakfast, lunch and dinner for six days

00:27:10.190 --> 00:27:12.829
and whatever snacking he needed to in the meantime.

00:27:13.089 --> 00:27:15.349
The other thing that came with that was he seemed

00:27:15.349 --> 00:27:18.549
to not so much fill up, but he seemed to understand

00:27:18.549 --> 00:27:21.630
sufficient at that point. So it's almost like

00:27:21.630 --> 00:27:23.890
he was trying to get something out of his food

00:27:23.890 --> 00:27:27.069
that just wasn't there. When we kept it very

00:27:27.069 --> 00:27:30.470
clean and very organic, that changed. He was

00:27:30.470 --> 00:27:34.509
able to feel I've had enough, you know, but he

00:27:34.509 --> 00:27:37.849
will be back an hour later. That was absolutely

00:27:37.849 --> 00:27:41.190
fascinating to me is to look at his body craving

00:27:41.190 --> 00:27:46.990
sincere nutrition. So we look at those sorts

00:27:46.990 --> 00:27:50.029
of foods. We keep him predominantly there. But

00:27:50.029 --> 00:27:52.049
yes, he's now a teenage boy and he's going to

00:27:52.049 --> 00:27:56.589
experiment. He's also playing rugby. And funnily

00:27:56.589 --> 00:27:58.750
enough, food and nutrition has become such a

00:27:58.750 --> 00:28:01.970
big thing for him that he's fascinated by it.

00:28:02.009 --> 00:28:05.069
And that's the field that he's looking at. He's

00:28:05.069 --> 00:28:08.230
studying. He's massively interested in how to

00:28:08.230 --> 00:28:11.190
keep his body well and everything. It gave him

00:28:11.190 --> 00:28:12.970
a connection with himself that I just don't think

00:28:12.970 --> 00:28:15.430
he had before. He was very young, but it's become

00:28:15.430 --> 00:28:18.250
an interest. He's fascinated in what's happened

00:28:18.250 --> 00:28:21.769
to him as much as anything. If that makes sense.

00:28:22.259 --> 00:28:25.339
Yeah, it didn't. Initially, when we were looking

00:28:25.339 --> 00:28:28.619
at medication, it was an effort to help him fit.

00:28:28.819 --> 00:28:31.440
And that's when we wrote our book. There's actually

00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:34.099
a bit of magic in not fitting sometimes is that

00:28:34.099 --> 00:28:36.740
it gives you another path. If even when you've

00:28:36.740 --> 00:28:40.180
got some diagnoses and everything else, don't

00:28:40.180 --> 00:28:42.670
forget to look at the whole picture. of your

00:28:42.670 --> 00:28:45.289
child you know it is about knowing your child

00:28:45.289 --> 00:28:47.490
isn't it I wouldn't profess to know every other

00:28:47.490 --> 00:28:49.930
every other child as you've said they're as different

00:28:49.930 --> 00:28:52.970
as each other to say in this podcast actually

00:28:52.970 --> 00:28:54.829
that it's fantastic that this worked for your

00:28:54.829 --> 00:28:58.150
son it's so fantastic and it's one case and it's

00:28:58.150 --> 00:29:00.710
amazing and we're certainly not saying that his

00:29:00.710 --> 00:29:03.349
autism was cured that's not what we're saying

00:29:03.349 --> 00:29:05.349
that's not what we're talking about here he's

00:29:05.349 --> 00:29:07.890
still very much autistic and very much you know

00:29:07.890 --> 00:29:09.890
have those sensory needs but what we're saying

00:29:09.890 --> 00:29:14.319
is by um having it's just really interesting

00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:16.079
to me that when his body didn't have to think

00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:18.440
about trying to heal itself and trying to manage

00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:20.779
all of this digestion that it could focus on

00:29:20.779 --> 00:29:25.259
other things yeah and i think similarly i think

00:29:25.259 --> 00:29:28.599
to if a child is incredibly anxious in an environment

00:29:28.599 --> 00:29:31.079
then they can't receive information they can't

00:29:31.079 --> 00:29:32.759
interpret information they can't moderate their

00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:35.420
behavior and you'll see outburst kind of crisis

00:29:36.609 --> 00:29:39.109
behaviors if they're feeling anxious well you

00:29:39.109 --> 00:29:40.930
know take the anxiety away they're not no longer

00:29:40.930 --> 00:29:43.710
autistic it's just they can moderate their body

00:29:43.710 --> 00:29:45.130
that little bit better because they're not having

00:29:45.130 --> 00:29:48.269
to use all their energy just to combat and work

00:29:48.269 --> 00:29:51.269
out the anxiety and it's the same internally

00:29:51.269 --> 00:29:54.430
too isn't it it's knowing ourselves isn't it

00:29:54.430 --> 00:29:56.470
i think for every single one of us knowing ourselves

00:29:56.470 --> 00:29:59.920
and what works for us is As individual as we

00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:02.920
all are, it's great to kind of share this information

00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:05.000
to say that, you know, if you're having the same

00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:07.700
experiences, you may have some success here.

00:30:07.740 --> 00:30:09.359
But I'm not saying for a minute that it will

00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:11.220
definitely work for everybody else. That is not

00:30:11.220 --> 00:30:13.859
what I'm saying. I'm just saying that I noticed

00:30:13.859 --> 00:30:16.539
the gut was an issue way before anything else.

00:30:17.259 --> 00:30:21.259
I was fascinated by this gut -brain connection

00:30:21.259 --> 00:30:24.240
that is being made by clinical psychologists

00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:27.740
and doctors, medical practitioners. And I thought.

00:30:28.029 --> 00:30:30.430
that could be something for us to look at because

00:30:30.430 --> 00:30:33.150
the gut was showing itself to be the first issue.

00:30:33.349 --> 00:30:38.910
So maybe if the gut is aggravated, the behaviours

00:30:38.910 --> 00:30:42.029
could follow, you know, maybe some of the behaviours

00:30:42.029 --> 00:30:44.750
could follow. And that was certainly the case

00:30:44.750 --> 00:30:48.170
for us. That's not that he's not autistic. Of

00:30:48.170 --> 00:30:51.349
course he is. And he still has very much sensory

00:30:51.349 --> 00:30:53.950
processing thing, but he's not reaching for,

00:30:54.089 --> 00:30:56.630
we notice now when he reaches for food for comfort.

00:30:57.420 --> 00:31:00.259
And it's that, how are you feeling? And we have

00:31:00.259 --> 00:31:03.140
that discussion instead of him grabbing the food

00:31:03.140 --> 00:31:06.539
to try and eat his feelings. You know, like that's

00:31:06.539 --> 00:31:08.619
okay because there are, again, there are plenty

00:31:08.619 --> 00:31:10.940
of people who do that. But I'm trying to teach

00:31:10.940 --> 00:31:13.660
you how not to eat your feelings so you have

00:31:13.660 --> 00:31:16.339
the body shape that you care about. Yeah, and

00:31:16.339 --> 00:31:18.700
general health and that you're understanding

00:31:18.700 --> 00:31:22.079
how to name your emotions and ultimately manage

00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:26.720
those. in a safe way, I suppose, which is what

00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:29.019
we want for everybody, isn't it? Just managing

00:31:29.019 --> 00:31:31.599
your body, knowing your body, regulating your

00:31:31.599 --> 00:31:34.319
body. And meeting his sensory needs was that

00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:36.539
appointment with the occupational therapists

00:31:36.539 --> 00:31:39.640
were just absolutely fabulous. They were letting

00:31:39.640 --> 00:31:42.519
me know what I was observing, what it meant.

00:31:42.740 --> 00:31:45.140
That was wonderful. So every time he's spinning

00:31:45.140 --> 00:31:47.779
like this, he's winding himself up. He needs

00:31:47.779 --> 00:31:50.799
to be this way to calm it down. I'm thinking,

00:31:50.859 --> 00:31:53.019
oh, thank you for that nugget of brilliance.

00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:56.200
because I now understand what he's doing when

00:31:56.200 --> 00:31:58.960
he's spinning. I now understand that he's trying

00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:01.319
to give himself energy to keep going. But actually,

00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:04.640
let's bring you back here. Maybe it will be a

00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:09.779
little calmer for you. Rugby was fantastic. He's

00:32:09.779 --> 00:32:12.880
passionate about rugby now, absolutely passionate

00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:15.839
about it. Occupational therapists said he's going

00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:19.240
to need impact here. So for a while we had weighted

00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:22.799
blankets. We had rucksacks. you know, to go everywhere

00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:24.640
so that we've got some weight on these shoulders.

00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:26.259
He doesn't like the shoulders being touched,

00:32:26.259 --> 00:32:28.880
but he needs something there. Now it's rugby.

00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:33.160
It's contact. You watch him, his whole system,

00:32:33.240 --> 00:32:37.799
he's that much calmer. Amazing. It's fascinating.

00:32:38.259 --> 00:32:40.400
It's what I'm saying to teachers and parents

00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:43.339
a lot of the time, actually, is if your child

00:32:43.339 --> 00:32:46.279
is, you know, doing a certain, meeting their

00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:49.359
needs in an unsafe way, it's not about stopping

00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:52.069
them. It's about... Being an investigator, as

00:32:52.069 --> 00:32:53.910
you absolutely started this conversation with,

00:32:54.009 --> 00:32:56.730
and thinking, why are they doing this? So the

00:32:56.730 --> 00:32:59.130
spinning, for example, why are they doing that?

00:32:59.170 --> 00:33:01.849
Okay, so they're trying to, yeah, get their energy

00:33:01.849 --> 00:33:04.569
up or they're trying to, you know, whatever it

00:33:04.569 --> 00:33:07.990
is. They like that sensation, that vestibular

00:33:07.990 --> 00:33:10.089
sensation, their inner ear. Maybe they're seeking

00:33:10.089 --> 00:33:11.650
that kind of inner ear because they're a bit

00:33:11.650 --> 00:33:13.950
low in that. How else could we do that that's

00:33:13.950 --> 00:33:16.130
not in the middle of the road? Or how else could

00:33:16.130 --> 00:33:19.240
we do that? You know, very young, we're hitting

00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:21.160
people. It was getting to the point where he's

00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:23.099
very strong and he's actually hurting me. And

00:33:23.099 --> 00:33:26.619
I thought, oh, this is really hard. Yeah. And

00:33:26.619 --> 00:33:29.660
going in for a hug, he needed to dig his elbows

00:33:29.660 --> 00:33:31.700
in really hard. And you think, I actually can't

00:33:31.700 --> 00:33:34.259
breathe right now. This is, you know, as much

00:33:34.259 --> 00:33:37.279
as I'm loving hugging you, ow, this is really.

00:33:37.579 --> 00:33:41.740
We're understanding the why behind that and unpicks

00:33:41.740 --> 00:33:45.160
it, doesn't it? And it's not. a aggressive behavior

00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:48.839
it's not a naughty behavior it's him trying to

00:33:48.839 --> 00:33:51.220
meet his sensory needs how he knows how absolutely

00:33:51.220 --> 00:33:55.019
through trial and error and it's our job isn't

00:33:55.019 --> 00:33:56.799
it to unpick that as well as the professionals

00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:59.299
get the professionals involved really understand

00:33:59.299 --> 00:34:02.279
what's really going on there and then find maybe

00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:06.039
safer well like you said we redirected the hitting

00:34:06.039 --> 00:34:09.630
to pillows on the floor build an angry mountain

00:34:09.630 --> 00:34:12.429
and you can hit that as much as you like until

00:34:12.429 --> 00:34:15.690
you're really tired there you go is that better

00:34:15.690 --> 00:34:18.309
as he got a bit older it's a punch bag it's not

00:34:18.309 --> 00:34:20.829
people sweetie it's a punch bag you know we don't

00:34:20.829 --> 00:34:23.989
we don't hit people we don't hit things and it's

00:34:23.989 --> 00:34:26.769
a learning process isn't it of what's it's not

00:34:26.769 --> 00:34:29.070
that these boundaries aren't here it's just where

00:34:29.070 --> 00:34:31.250
do you fit in them and without making yourself

00:34:31.250 --> 00:34:33.389
feel bad because you know if he hurts you he

00:34:33.389 --> 00:34:35.710
feels bad it didn't mean to hurt you he just

00:34:35.710 --> 00:34:38.110
meant to deal with the the need he had you know

00:34:38.110 --> 00:34:40.409
he doesn't understand that it's actually that's

00:34:40.409 --> 00:34:42.809
quite painful and also he might quite like a

00:34:42.809 --> 00:34:45.210
hard hit for him but he doesn't it's a lot of

00:34:45.210 --> 00:34:47.329
understanding to understand how that might not

00:34:47.329 --> 00:34:50.150
be pleasurable for somebody else quite a lot

00:34:50.150 --> 00:34:51.949
of learning going on there isn't there so much

00:34:51.949 --> 00:34:54.650
learning this is why we withdrew because we understood

00:34:54.650 --> 00:34:57.090
that we withdrew from the school environment

00:34:57.090 --> 00:34:59.449
and came to a home education environment because

00:35:00.409 --> 00:35:03.190
we could see the intense need for what he needed

00:35:03.190 --> 00:35:05.929
to learn was currently not a curriculum thing

00:35:05.929 --> 00:35:08.510
it was a it was going to be quite a bit of time

00:35:08.510 --> 00:35:10.969
with the self of like let's let's understand

00:35:10.969 --> 00:35:13.230
you and then we'll go back in that environment

00:35:13.230 --> 00:35:15.929
when you're ready was it a similar time that

00:35:15.929 --> 00:35:18.190
you were out of the school system as that you

00:35:18.190 --> 00:35:21.570
were also doing the changes in yes it was we

00:35:21.570 --> 00:35:25.530
really everybody involved tried their very best

00:35:25.530 --> 00:35:28.539
to do everything they could to have will in that

00:35:28.539 --> 00:35:30.460
school environment, myself included. I was very

00:35:30.460 --> 00:35:32.920
much stuck on the, you have to go to school because

00:35:32.920 --> 00:35:35.360
I have to go to work. And that's the thing is

00:35:35.360 --> 00:35:37.159
he's a school age and I have a mortgage, you

00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:39.539
know, what do I do here? So everybody was quite

00:35:39.539 --> 00:35:44.300
keen for this to work. It was very clear that

00:35:44.300 --> 00:35:47.519
it was driving him down. He started to have a

00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:51.400
very poor image of himself. And that, I think,

00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:53.679
goes too far at that particular point. You realise

00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:56.639
how far you can push. And when your child is

00:35:56.639 --> 00:35:59.079
saying, no, I'm absolutely done, where it showed

00:35:59.079 --> 00:36:02.639
us was in lockdown. Will was at the bottom of

00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:04.480
the car loss and really, really struggling. When

00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:06.800
I said, you won't be going in whilst we're essential

00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:08.699
workers, you won't be going in because I could

00:36:08.699 --> 00:36:11.059
see him having real trouble with the masks and

00:36:11.059 --> 00:36:13.679
Will was still licking things. So it's not going

00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:16.059
to be particularly welcome in a pandemic, you

00:36:16.059 --> 00:36:17.980
know, the child that licks people. I'm like,

00:36:18.059 --> 00:36:20.880
OK, so, you know, maybe not. Maybe we'll keep

00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:23.340
you home and it's nicer for everybody. You can

00:36:23.340 --> 00:36:27.630
lick this window because I clean it. Love him.

00:36:27.730 --> 00:36:30.530
I love him so much. He said to me, mommy, I will

00:36:30.530 --> 00:36:33.869
do anything not to go back in there. And I said,

00:36:33.909 --> 00:36:36.269
okay, I think you're at a high level of distress

00:36:36.269 --> 00:36:38.829
now. He'd already spoken about wanting to die

00:36:38.829 --> 00:36:41.849
because he didn't fit. He didn't understand how

00:36:41.849 --> 00:36:44.090
to get on this rainbow. He just did not understand

00:36:44.090 --> 00:36:46.690
it. He didn't understand that he was actually

00:36:46.690 --> 00:36:50.150
moving when he's being told to sit still. And

00:36:50.150 --> 00:36:54.150
it was incredibly, and he turned that all inwards

00:36:54.150 --> 00:36:57.619
as well. So it was showing itself in a really

00:36:57.619 --> 00:36:59.960
unhealthy way for him to continue to develop

00:36:59.960 --> 00:37:05.460
from this negative sense of self. When we started

00:37:05.460 --> 00:37:07.699
education from home, I think the same as everybody

00:37:07.699 --> 00:37:10.559
else, the lessons were coming in from his teacher

00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:13.360
and very, very quickly he worked out that at

00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:15.960
8am, if he is on the computer, he can do his

00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:18.639
work in about two hours and the rest of the day

00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:21.739
is his. And I saw it. Different part of my son

00:37:21.739 --> 00:37:24.300
at that point was this need for autonomy. The

00:37:24.300 --> 00:37:28.400
pressure sensitivity he had to being on task

00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:31.480
and demand, that was really showing itself. People

00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:34.179
had spoken about demand avoidance at a very young

00:37:34.179 --> 00:37:37.159
age with William. We could see it as a need to

00:37:37.159 --> 00:37:39.639
lead. That's what I saw in him was this need

00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:43.260
to be first at the front to lead. He'd go on

00:37:43.260 --> 00:37:45.079
in where angels fear to tread, that one. And

00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:47.420
I'm thinking, okay, so, but if you need to do

00:37:47.420 --> 00:37:50.329
that, you need to understand that mistakes. are

00:37:50.329 --> 00:37:52.289
A, definitely going to happen if you're going

00:37:52.289 --> 00:37:54.849
first. Mistakes are going to happen. You're going

00:37:54.849 --> 00:37:56.829
to get a lot of learning. And if you're turning

00:37:56.829 --> 00:38:00.570
that all in on yourself, suddenly you're feeling

00:38:00.570 --> 00:38:02.150
really bad about yourself because you're making

00:38:02.150 --> 00:38:04.030
mistakes and you've got this idea that mistakes

00:38:04.030 --> 00:38:07.230
are bad. It's not what the school were teaching,

00:38:07.349 --> 00:38:10.110
but it's what he learned unintentionally that

00:38:10.110 --> 00:38:13.090
mistakes are a very bad thing. And I thought,

00:38:13.230 --> 00:38:16.750
okay, we need to unpick some of this. When he

00:38:16.750 --> 00:38:19.860
learned, I've done my work. He went from the

00:38:19.860 --> 00:38:21.460
bottom of the class to the top of the class.

00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:23.739
And his teacher said to me, are you doing much

00:38:23.739 --> 00:38:25.760
of that work? And I said, with the greatest respect,

00:38:25.880 --> 00:38:29.800
I've got more than enough of my own. So I'm just

00:38:29.800 --> 00:38:34.500
fascinated at how he has shifted from, and it's

00:38:34.500 --> 00:38:38.039
my time, and how he was exploring. It wasn't

00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:40.739
led by me. You know, my husband and I were working

00:38:40.739 --> 00:38:44.889
as well. It wasn't led by me. This was his own

00:38:44.889 --> 00:38:46.969
personal exploration. He was coming in with a

00:38:46.969 --> 00:38:51.329
lot of joy of, look what I found. Come and share

00:38:51.329 --> 00:38:54.030
this with me. And suddenly that's when we could

00:38:54.030 --> 00:38:59.690
get in. Again, he could be interested in it.

00:38:59.730 --> 00:39:02.269
He could choose topics of interest. He could

00:39:02.269 --> 00:39:07.389
work at times that were suited to his. rhythm

00:39:07.389 --> 00:39:10.190
i suppose like if it was yeah 8 a .m to 10 a

00:39:10.190 --> 00:39:12.150
.m if that's when he works best then that works

00:39:12.150 --> 00:39:16.409
for him yeah 8 a .m to 10 a .m if somebody's

00:39:16.409 --> 00:39:19.329
asking me to do something i can do that after

00:39:19.329 --> 00:39:21.909
sort of 10 a .m and even now sort of after midday

00:39:21.909 --> 00:39:25.369
in the afternoons it's very like he really needs

00:39:25.369 --> 00:39:28.389
his own space and his own ability to explore

00:39:28.389 --> 00:39:31.429
he needs limited instruction at that particular

00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:34.599
point in time so we're quite careful about the

00:39:34.599 --> 00:39:36.800
language we use around instruction i tend to

00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:39.500
wonder if i wonder if someone could get that

00:39:39.500 --> 00:39:42.000
bin for me it's fine we'll we'll get the bin

00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:47.300
quite happily with those with pda so pathological

00:39:47.300 --> 00:39:49.820
demand avoidance is that kind of i wonder if

00:39:49.820 --> 00:39:51.599
questions and we're hearing them a lot actually

00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:54.320
as parents are doing podcasts it just makes me

00:39:54.320 --> 00:39:57.179
smile because i know exactly what you mean you're

00:39:57.179 --> 00:40:01.420
trying isn't it yeah to keep the demand i mean

00:40:01.849 --> 00:40:05.989
If you think for a minute, I'm a former police

00:40:05.989 --> 00:40:08.750
officer. I'm pretty used to being quite direct

00:40:08.750 --> 00:40:12.369
with my communication, not indirect. So it was

00:40:12.369 --> 00:40:15.969
a huge learning change for us. I can't ask him

00:40:15.969 --> 00:40:18.630
to do anything. Hang on. It's very difficult.

00:40:19.010 --> 00:40:23.219
It's like a puzzle, isn't it? Yeah. But watching

00:40:23.219 --> 00:40:26.940
him over this period of time, lead himself through

00:40:26.940 --> 00:40:30.420
his own learning and come and ask the questions

00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:32.780
and state what he needs. Mum, I need to go to

00:40:32.780 --> 00:40:34.559
Greece. I have to see this place. And he's like,

00:40:34.659 --> 00:40:36.880
OK, yeah, I'll put it on the list. You know,

00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:39.179
it's fine. I feel well for that. You know, let's

00:40:39.179 --> 00:40:41.739
do an enterprise thing. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:44.539
And, you know, or I'm fascinated by this. Can

00:40:44.539 --> 00:40:47.500
I buy this so that I can go into this class and

00:40:47.500 --> 00:40:49.360
find out what this is all about? I really want

00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:51.239
to know. It's an entrepreneurial skills class.

00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:53.340
I really want, this sounds fascinating. I would

00:40:53.340 --> 00:40:55.500
really like to do this. That's wonderful. Then

00:40:55.500 --> 00:40:59.059
here we go. There's my card. Life long learner.

00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:02.199
He hasn't lost that love of learning. That's

00:41:02.199 --> 00:41:04.280
been a big pivot. A big change is to understand

00:41:04.280 --> 00:41:06.320
that no, well, you don't have to have this figured

00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:10.090
out by 16, 18, 25. You just don't. It takes as

00:41:10.090 --> 00:41:12.590
long as it takes. You will find your path. If

00:41:12.590 --> 00:41:14.730
there's a test to be taken for you to be able

00:41:14.730 --> 00:41:16.550
to evidence your learning, I'm sure you'll take

00:41:16.550 --> 00:41:18.710
it at the point that is absolutely right for

00:41:18.710 --> 00:41:21.570
you. And it was letting go of an awful lot of

00:41:21.570 --> 00:41:24.489
things for us. It's not easy because there's

00:41:24.489 --> 00:41:28.730
a lot of conflicting views out there. And it's

00:41:28.730 --> 00:41:32.130
very difficult when... When the behaviours modify,

00:41:32.369 --> 00:41:35.829
people think, oh, he's fine now. Because of all

00:41:35.829 --> 00:41:37.849
these changes and strategies in place that he

00:41:37.849 --> 00:41:42.550
is managing, he's now being given or learning

00:41:42.550 --> 00:41:45.710
from a whole bunch of tools to put in his kit

00:41:45.710 --> 00:41:49.269
bag for walking onto the rugby pitch and feeling

00:41:49.269 --> 00:41:51.789
a little anxious. So he goes to the kitchen here

00:41:51.789 --> 00:41:55.309
and he makes a cacao and banana smoothie. So

00:41:55.309 --> 00:41:57.469
he knows he's got a game. He knows he wants to

00:41:57.469 --> 00:41:59.869
perform well. Up comes his personal pressure

00:41:59.869 --> 00:42:01.949
at that particular point. No matter what I do,

00:42:02.130 --> 00:42:05.250
performing well is really important to him. Personal

00:42:05.250 --> 00:42:07.150
pressure comes in. I haven't had anything to

00:42:07.150 --> 00:42:08.909
do with it, but I've got to help him manage it.

00:42:09.030 --> 00:42:10.710
I didn't want to go down the line of medication

00:42:10.710 --> 00:42:14.570
to start with for what I would say was chronic

00:42:14.570 --> 00:42:17.590
anxiety at the point that we discovered cacao.

00:42:17.769 --> 00:42:22.210
Now, cacao has really high properties for phenyethylamine

00:42:22.210 --> 00:42:25.889
and anandamide, which are your self -love. the

00:42:25.889 --> 00:42:27.889
chemicals that release in your body naturally

00:42:27.889 --> 00:42:30.590
when you fall in love. I mean, if you can do

00:42:30.590 --> 00:42:32.269
that with yourself, that's kind of great, isn't

00:42:32.269 --> 00:42:34.710
it? So you can love yourself a little easier.

00:42:35.230 --> 00:42:37.809
It's a little, and it calms because it works

00:42:37.809 --> 00:42:40.309
in your cardiovascular system rather than coffee

00:42:40.309 --> 00:42:42.889
in your central nervous system. I use it myself

00:42:42.889 --> 00:42:46.429
to keep calm. It's a way of, I'm calm. I can

00:42:46.429 --> 00:42:49.050
manage this. If he's throwing out some unpleasant

00:42:49.050 --> 00:42:51.590
stuff right now, it's not about me and I can

00:42:51.590 --> 00:42:54.239
manage it because I'm not full of caffeine. I'm

00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:57.239
full of cacao. So down it comes, down comes my

00:42:57.239 --> 00:43:00.440
anxiety and down comes his. And it's amazing.

00:43:00.900 --> 00:43:03.599
So important, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. You

00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:05.559
want to be a role model for your children, don't

00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:07.820
you? And it's like, well, I can't tell him to

00:43:07.820 --> 00:43:10.880
calm down if his behavior is triggering me. And

00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:13.679
I'm like, hang on, I can't get there yet. If

00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:17.000
you're homeschooling as well, then you've got

00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.099
no respite from each other or very little. So

00:43:19.099 --> 00:43:22.179
it's even more important, I feel, to try and

00:43:22.179 --> 00:43:25.809
co -regulate in that way. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm

00:43:25.809 --> 00:43:27.889
going to play devil's advocate. I hope you don't

00:43:27.889 --> 00:43:31.210
mind. I know some listeners will be thinking

00:43:31.210 --> 00:43:39.530
this too. How do you know if you started unschooling,

00:43:39.530 --> 00:43:42.730
homeschooling at the same time that you started

00:43:42.730 --> 00:43:49.030
changing the diet? How do you know that it was

00:43:49.030 --> 00:43:52.610
gut health that was making the impact and not?

00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:56.280
the school system changes and i just think that's

00:43:56.280 --> 00:43:59.119
good that i have to ask it yeah absolutely it's

00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:01.219
a really relevant question it's really really

00:44:01.219 --> 00:44:04.960
relevant the first thing we changed what so if

00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:08.780
you imagine we're coming into the um the school

00:44:08.780 --> 00:44:12.880
refusal phase and that is when we started to

00:44:12.880 --> 00:44:15.780
change the diet at the lockdown as well so all

00:44:15.780 --> 00:44:18.539
of these things happened at once yeah i had the

00:44:18.539 --> 00:44:21.190
time to change the diet, to focus on cooking

00:44:21.190 --> 00:44:23.550
differently and all the things I had to learn

00:44:23.550 --> 00:44:26.949
as well because of that lockdown period. But

00:44:26.949 --> 00:44:30.389
when we first went into it, he was still very

00:44:30.389 --> 00:44:33.710
dysregulated, you know, and running and banging

00:44:33.710 --> 00:44:36.610
and all kinds of things. So when I changed the

00:44:36.610 --> 00:44:41.710
food, that was after the lockdown. So the lockdown

00:44:41.710 --> 00:44:45.550
happened. We were two or three days into what

00:44:45.550 --> 00:44:47.409
does work look like? What does home look like?

00:44:47.429 --> 00:44:50.340
Everybody figuring that. out when I said I'm

00:44:50.340 --> 00:44:52.860
going to use the time to try and do this um this

00:44:52.860 --> 00:44:55.719
dietary thing with uh with William and I'm going

00:44:55.719 --> 00:44:58.639
to cook for all of us so we still had that period

00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:01.860
of time where he was quite dysregulated within

00:45:01.860 --> 00:45:05.659
that week of it coming down he was still having

00:45:05.659 --> 00:45:09.260
the online contact with his teacher and you know

00:45:09.260 --> 00:45:11.579
so yes there is a there's definitely a crossover

00:45:11.579 --> 00:45:16.869
here what what is undeniable was the The change

00:45:16.869 --> 00:45:20.170
in his bathroom habit of running to the bathroom,

00:45:20.289 --> 00:45:23.769
not being able to leave the bathroom, and it

00:45:23.769 --> 00:45:26.150
clearly was distressing him. So that's probably

00:45:26.150 --> 00:45:28.269
the bit that I would say was solely addressed

00:45:28.269 --> 00:45:31.869
by food. The anxiety, we still see it. It's not

00:45:31.869 --> 00:45:35.789
gone. It's just managed. We help him with the

00:45:35.789 --> 00:45:39.230
tools to manage the anxiety. And the anxiety,

00:45:39.289 --> 00:45:43.110
I would say, has reduced because he is out of

00:45:43.110 --> 00:45:46.730
the... testing environment that creates the pressure

00:45:46.730 --> 00:45:50.309
so one thing was about his gut bowel behavior

00:45:50.309 --> 00:45:52.989
so i think you know if you're seeing that and

00:45:52.989 --> 00:45:54.909
you're doing that you you know that that's a

00:45:54.909 --> 00:45:58.170
good thing to that was very much about that and

00:45:58.170 --> 00:46:00.389
you you could definitely see the links between

00:46:00.389 --> 00:46:02.630
i don't want to go out because i might need the

00:46:02.630 --> 00:46:04.690
bathroom and i don't want to be here because

00:46:04.690 --> 00:46:08.469
i might need that anxiety i'm worried about somebody

00:46:10.190 --> 00:46:12.670
Inadvertently, somebody had said that, oh, he's

00:46:12.670 --> 00:46:14.710
had a terrible incident in the bathroom. And

00:46:14.710 --> 00:46:16.769
of course, he's taken that on. It's like, terrible?

00:46:16.949 --> 00:46:18.429
I'm terrible? There's something terrible about

00:46:18.429 --> 00:46:20.849
me? Because it's literal, huh? It can be such

00:46:20.849 --> 00:46:23.769
a literal receiving. So actually, his gut health

00:46:23.769 --> 00:46:28.070
and anxiety and schooling, it's hard to unpick

00:46:28.070 --> 00:46:31.170
it as separate because it's all this jumble of

00:46:31.170 --> 00:46:37.079
anxiety, self -esteem, gut health. it was actually

00:46:37.079 --> 00:46:39.679
because the gut health was going so well it was

00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:41.719
one of the reasons one of the other reasons we

00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:43.119
didn't want to return to school because nuts

00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:45.440
became quite an important part of his diet and

00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:47.340
it can't be in that environment and you think

00:46:47.340 --> 00:46:49.480
this is really this is now really challenging

00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:52.239
so we're making dates and nut bars because he

00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:55.269
wasn't having the wheat the usual kind of biscuit

00:46:55.269 --> 00:46:57.449
or anything else we weren't having any of that

00:46:57.449 --> 00:46:59.469
and i didn't want the gluten -free stuff from

00:46:59.469 --> 00:47:01.489
the shop because it is as you say it's still

00:47:01.489 --> 00:47:04.050
highly processed and i don't know what's in it

00:47:04.050 --> 00:47:08.869
and so for that first year um i was pretty fanatical

00:47:08.869 --> 00:47:12.289
about what was in his diet because we were seeing

00:47:12.289 --> 00:47:15.969
a much calmer happier person that was able to

00:47:15.969 --> 00:47:18.530
tackle things outside of the house so initially

00:47:18.530 --> 00:47:22.340
i think that leaving the house was leaving his

00:47:22.340 --> 00:47:25.059
private bathroom now that i need to be in here

00:47:25.059 --> 00:47:27.380
for as long as i need to be in here and i don't

00:47:27.380 --> 00:47:29.119
know what's going to happen and i can't seem

00:47:29.119 --> 00:47:32.500
to work that out and i don't like the smell and

00:47:32.500 --> 00:47:34.599
i don't like all the other stuff that comes with

00:47:34.599 --> 00:47:36.780
that the hand washing rule either i don't like

00:47:36.780 --> 00:47:38.460
that very much i'm like yeah that's essential

00:47:38.460 --> 00:47:41.159
so you know this one we're not letting go of

00:47:41.159 --> 00:47:44.039
there's a lot of anxiety around all of it isn't

00:47:44.039 --> 00:47:47.019
there i suppose your home in your in your safe

00:47:47.019 --> 00:47:48.519
environment people around you that understand

00:47:48.519 --> 00:47:50.650
you that won't rush you that won't asked to do

00:47:50.650 --> 00:47:52.610
anything that you can't do like physically do

00:47:52.610 --> 00:47:55.690
then that is going to ease your anxiety isn't

00:47:55.690 --> 00:47:58.050
it and therefore and it's not measured in the

00:47:58.050 --> 00:48:00.429
same way at home is it's not measured in the

00:48:00.429 --> 00:48:03.409
same way he of course he does you know his workbooks

00:48:03.409 --> 00:48:05.329
and bits and pieces like that but he tests himself

00:48:05.329 --> 00:48:07.429
when he's ready to test himself very different

00:48:07.429 --> 00:48:10.889
and he's comparing himself to himself and not

00:48:10.889 --> 00:48:13.710
his peers which i also think is really it's been

00:48:13.710 --> 00:48:16.510
really helpful to him I mean, I heard him talking

00:48:16.510 --> 00:48:19.269
to his peers and friends at Rugby and Scout and

00:48:19.269 --> 00:48:21.730
it's very much sort of, that's fine. I'm sorry

00:48:21.730 --> 00:48:24.269
you feel like that, but I know me. And I think,

00:48:24.289 --> 00:48:26.650
yeah, that's fine. You know you. I know me and

00:48:26.650 --> 00:48:29.869
this is better for me. Great. Oh God, if we could

00:48:29.869 --> 00:48:32.230
all do that, it would be a much better place.

00:48:33.150 --> 00:48:35.550
He sounded quite powerful, bless him. He really

00:48:35.550 --> 00:48:38.829
did. He sounds like a wonderful young man. Yes,

00:48:38.829 --> 00:48:42.610
he does. He really does. I'm completely smitten.

00:48:42.869 --> 00:48:45.190
Completely smitten. I just need it as a challenge

00:48:45.190 --> 00:48:49.429
to work out where are we? What's this mean? What's

00:48:49.429 --> 00:48:51.130
this new language? And what's this new way of

00:48:51.130 --> 00:48:52.909
being? And it did, in the end, it did require

00:48:52.909 --> 00:48:54.929
me to give up. Committed. You committed as an

00:48:54.929 --> 00:48:59.940
entire family to... make a massive change you

00:48:59.940 --> 00:49:02.960
know food's a really social and important part

00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:07.340
of our human existence and socially and everything

00:49:07.340 --> 00:49:12.059
and it's a huge commitment to step that back

00:49:12.059 --> 00:49:13.940
and work that food together and i suppose the

00:49:13.940 --> 00:49:16.639
pandemic let you do that didn't it because you

00:49:16.639 --> 00:49:19.500
know there wasn't any social invites or gatherings

00:49:19.500 --> 00:49:22.599
so you could you gave me a preview It gave me

00:49:22.599 --> 00:49:25.639
a preview of the possibility. When we left, we

00:49:25.639 --> 00:49:27.059
didn't know how we were going to do that. My

00:49:27.059 --> 00:49:28.980
husband and I have always worked. We've always

00:49:28.980 --> 00:49:31.119
worked in services like government services.

00:49:31.340 --> 00:49:34.280
We've always worked there. So, you know, how

00:49:34.280 --> 00:49:36.780
do you go from that? Having a regular and consistent

00:49:36.780 --> 00:49:39.460
salary? Well, we'd worked there for long enough

00:49:39.460 --> 00:49:41.960
that we weren't a million miles away from a pension.

00:49:42.219 --> 00:49:45.099
And we thought, can we hobble over these next

00:49:45.099 --> 00:49:48.239
few years for the few gains that we've made in

00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:50.949
lockdown? Could we make it a lifestyle? Could

00:49:50.949 --> 00:49:54.650
we actually do that? And so we started to look

00:49:54.650 --> 00:49:57.590
at other ways that you could fund a change like

00:49:57.590 --> 00:49:59.769
that. How do you do it? How do you take all of

00:49:59.769 --> 00:50:02.650
your assets, put them together, and look at how

00:50:02.650 --> 00:50:07.030
you can redistribute those to make it viable?

00:50:07.369 --> 00:50:09.949
For us, that's what we had to do. We rented out

00:50:09.949 --> 00:50:12.349
our house. Parents, in your position, it's just

00:50:12.349 --> 00:50:16.070
not a choice. No. As in, lots of parents are

00:50:16.070 --> 00:50:20.480
ought to have... their children at home because

00:50:20.480 --> 00:50:23.019
they cannot cope in school. So it's not even

00:50:23.019 --> 00:50:26.639
a logical financial choice. They just are home

00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:28.980
and you just have to manage that because the

00:50:28.980 --> 00:50:32.519
school system isn't meeting their needs. I'm

00:50:32.519 --> 00:50:35.139
looking at the progressive education space and

00:50:35.139 --> 00:50:39.380
there are definitely developments afoot. So I'm

00:50:39.380 --> 00:50:43.860
really hopeful that we're crossing that area.

00:50:43.940 --> 00:50:46.599
I do believe that in school we're doing... you

00:50:46.599 --> 00:50:48.420
know, the very best they could with what they

00:50:48.420 --> 00:50:53.000
had. And it just wasn't possible for, you know,

00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:56.699
inclusion. Sometimes we focus so much on someone's

00:50:56.699 --> 00:50:58.739
absolute right to be included. We don't actually

00:50:58.739 --> 00:51:01.800
ask them if they'd like to be. And that sometimes

00:51:01.800 --> 00:51:03.780
can be really, it can be really challenging to

00:51:03.780 --> 00:51:05.539
put that in the hands of a child that's saying,

00:51:05.579 --> 00:51:07.860
I can't be in this room. They can be in the same

00:51:07.860 --> 00:51:09.699
room as the others and they're very much included.

00:51:10.119 --> 00:51:12.139
But it doesn't mean they're thriving. It doesn't

00:51:12.139 --> 00:51:15.010
mean they're learning. Exactly. And everything

00:51:15.010 --> 00:51:17.530
that he loves isn't on a current curriculum.

00:51:18.190 --> 00:51:20.909
We really are at complete odds with what's happening.

00:51:20.909 --> 00:51:23.769
He's still learning and he still loves learning.

00:51:24.030 --> 00:51:26.750
Yes, he's accessing it through different methods

00:51:26.750 --> 00:51:30.269
in a different way. And it is just very much

00:51:30.269 --> 00:51:32.989
led by him and supported by us. We become like

00:51:32.989 --> 00:51:36.590
coaches and support people rather than... regular

00:51:36.590 --> 00:51:38.849
parents, I think, at that particular point. It

00:51:38.849 --> 00:51:40.989
definitely does change the dynamic, doesn't it?

00:51:41.010 --> 00:51:43.849
And the relationship and your role in the upbringing

00:51:43.849 --> 00:51:46.309
of your child, for sure. You wear a lot more

00:51:46.309 --> 00:51:49.510
hats, I think, as a homeschool parent. One of

00:51:49.510 --> 00:51:52.530
the things I really felt like at the very beginning,

00:51:52.730 --> 00:51:55.750
I really believed, oh, I don't want to do this

00:51:55.750 --> 00:51:59.389
because I'm nervous about being his everything.

00:52:00.429 --> 00:52:03.530
Really. Sounds crazy. I think that's potentially

00:52:03.530 --> 00:52:07.579
harmful for him. As it was, I was, but only for

00:52:07.579 --> 00:52:09.739
a short period of time, only until he was stable

00:52:09.739 --> 00:52:12.900
again. And once he was stable, he was happy to

00:52:12.900 --> 00:52:16.179
explore. And we just, we modelled what it was

00:52:16.179 --> 00:52:19.260
to explore and get things wrong. And say, you

00:52:19.260 --> 00:52:21.139
know, yeah, look at me making these mistakes.

00:52:21.340 --> 00:52:24.559
Whoops, it's fine. The more it's modelled, I

00:52:24.559 --> 00:52:27.400
mean, modelling is such a beautiful tool. an

00:52:27.400 --> 00:52:29.699
affirming tool of teaching those things isn't

00:52:29.699 --> 00:52:32.340
it if we're doing them ourselves if somebody's

00:52:32.340 --> 00:52:36.880
listening to this and is on that cusp of you

00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:40.320
know medication and all these kind of conversations

00:52:40.320 --> 00:52:44.900
and have paused to listen to this podcast what

00:52:44.900 --> 00:52:47.719
would you say to them about their journey and

00:52:47.719 --> 00:52:51.199
and how um and what your advice i suppose would

00:52:51.199 --> 00:52:55.269
be on who they include in order to navigate I

00:52:55.269 --> 00:52:57.650
think you hit the nail on the head there. It's

00:52:57.650 --> 00:53:00.590
very much their journey. It won't always look

00:53:00.590 --> 00:53:02.610
like somebody else's. And in fact, there may

00:53:02.610 --> 00:53:04.630
be similarities, but it's not going to look exactly

00:53:04.630 --> 00:53:08.389
like everybody else's. But if you're noticing

00:53:08.389 --> 00:53:10.829
some of these things, then find the people that

00:53:10.829 --> 00:53:12.809
are going through it and don't be afraid to try.

00:53:12.889 --> 00:53:16.030
Maybe don't attach too much to the outcome, as

00:53:16.030 --> 00:53:20.150
was an exploration of would this help you right

00:53:20.150 --> 00:53:22.829
now? Would this support you? No? Okay. We ditched

00:53:22.829 --> 00:53:25.559
that one and find that. That works. Okay, tube

00:53:25.559 --> 00:53:27.699
body works. Brilliant. So tube bodies are great

00:53:27.699 --> 00:53:30.199
for us. Dummy doesn't work. This works. You know,

00:53:30.260 --> 00:53:34.659
it's that personal journey. And it is the, I'm

00:53:34.659 --> 00:53:36.400
really grateful for the investigative background

00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:40.519
I have to be able to genuinely take a step back

00:53:40.519 --> 00:53:43.039
and have a more eagle -eyed view of what's going

00:53:43.039 --> 00:53:46.900
on here without judgment. And that's the great

00:53:46.900 --> 00:53:48.699
thing is if you're not aiming for a particular

00:53:48.699 --> 00:53:51.159
goal, if you're not attached to the outcome,

00:53:51.340 --> 00:53:54.300
you can remove judgment. really easily and not

00:53:54.300 --> 00:53:56.940
worry about it to say okay let's just see what

00:53:56.940 --> 00:53:59.579
this is revealing you can't be disappointed either

00:53:59.579 --> 00:54:02.420
because you haven't set yourself up like ultimately

00:54:02.420 --> 00:54:05.199
we don't know we are literally investigating

00:54:05.199 --> 00:54:08.239
i think that's in really really wise advice and

00:54:08.239 --> 00:54:12.139
that covers all topics and all areas of parenting

00:54:12.139 --> 00:54:15.099
and teaching is that we need to put our investigator

00:54:15.099 --> 00:54:18.409
hat on and experiment and always test our own

00:54:18.409 --> 00:54:20.869
theories it's all well and good coming up with

00:54:20.869 --> 00:54:22.829
a million things of what we could be doing and

00:54:22.829 --> 00:54:24.829
saving all these posts on instagram what we could

00:54:24.829 --> 00:54:26.349
be doing and reading all these books about what

00:54:26.349 --> 00:54:28.550
we could be doing actually sometimes you just

00:54:28.550 --> 00:54:31.130
need to test your own theories and in a controlled

00:54:31.130 --> 00:54:33.150
environment which is exactly what you did whether

00:54:33.150 --> 00:54:35.050
it's got help or not you know even it's sensory

00:54:35.050 --> 00:54:37.980
whatever teaching Organise your controlled environment

00:54:37.980 --> 00:54:40.460
and then experiment. Test your theory. Does this

00:54:40.460 --> 00:54:44.300
work? How I, you know, how it seems to be. Okay,

00:54:44.400 --> 00:54:46.780
that does. Okay, we'll keep that. That doesn't.

00:54:46.780 --> 00:54:50.280
And work out what's best for your child or your

00:54:50.280 --> 00:54:53.719
student. And that not yet thing, it's so powerful,

00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:56.679
isn't it? It doesn't work yet. But actually he's

00:54:56.679 --> 00:54:58.639
going to access that a little bit later and it

00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:01.980
will work. One of the good ways. Yeah, he'll

00:55:01.980 --> 00:55:03.980
come across it himself. And you think. We've

00:55:03.980 --> 00:55:05.519
been talking about this for three years, but

00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:07.000
here you go. You've found it yourself. It's a

00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:09.739
self -discovery. So you're really there, aren't

00:55:09.739 --> 00:55:13.019
you? You're running. Brilliant. Off we go. That's

00:55:13.019 --> 00:55:15.900
a good moment as a mother to see that and witness

00:55:15.900 --> 00:55:18.760
that. Yeah, it's been amazing. It's been an amazing

00:55:18.760 --> 00:55:22.380
journey. I'm happy to talk about it with anybody.

00:55:22.519 --> 00:55:24.300
And that's why we have our... How would people

00:55:24.300 --> 00:55:27.239
find you if they did want to extend this conversation

00:55:27.239 --> 00:55:30.079
with you or learn a little bit more about you

00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:33.409
and your story and your journey? Amazing. So

00:55:33.409 --> 00:55:35.849
we have a website called Gemini Directions, which

00:55:35.849 --> 00:55:38.389
is a new way of working for us that came up.

00:55:38.429 --> 00:55:40.170
My husband concentrates very much on physical

00:55:40.170 --> 00:55:43.389
well -being and I concentrate on the coaching

00:55:43.389 --> 00:55:47.349
mental health well -being. But on the side from

00:55:47.349 --> 00:55:49.929
that, we have a safe circle space for parents

00:55:49.929 --> 00:55:54.309
that are exploring neurodivergence or difference

00:55:54.309 --> 00:55:57.969
or a child school refusal. It's just a safe space

00:55:57.969 --> 00:56:00.909
for them to be, come share, get rid of it so

00:56:00.909 --> 00:56:03.449
that. You can put it in the space that says,

00:56:03.489 --> 00:56:05.230
you know, this is overwhelming me right now without

00:56:05.230 --> 00:56:07.650
feeling bad about it. Because we all need that,

00:56:07.690 --> 00:56:09.670
don't we, as parents, when you're exploring it

00:56:09.670 --> 00:56:13.130
too. The idea that you've got this is sometimes

00:56:13.130 --> 00:56:16.690
lost on you, is that actually this is hard right

00:56:16.690 --> 00:56:19.630
now. And I've tried 20 things and none of them

00:56:19.630 --> 00:56:21.369
are working. I'm starting to lose hope. That's

00:56:21.369 --> 00:56:24.050
okay. You know, you need a space at that point.

00:56:24.090 --> 00:56:27.530
I think we can sometimes lose focus of the fact

00:56:27.530 --> 00:56:29.630
that the parents are the first support for this

00:56:29.630 --> 00:56:32.210
child. And then they've got all these other people

00:56:32.210 --> 00:56:33.989
around them to support their learning. And we

00:56:33.989 --> 00:56:36.170
can all move with the greatest of intentions,

00:56:36.369 --> 00:56:39.610
but sometimes it's just not happening. Having

00:56:39.610 --> 00:56:41.769
a safe space where you can put that and say,

00:56:41.869 --> 00:56:45.110
right, it's not happening. If you want to, you

00:56:45.110 --> 00:56:47.769
can ask. Anybody else got this experience? What

00:56:47.769 --> 00:56:49.969
did you do? Are you happy to share? Or could

00:56:49.969 --> 00:56:52.070
you just keep this for me because I don't know

00:56:52.070 --> 00:56:54.050
where to put that right now and it can't be around

00:56:54.050 --> 00:56:56.150
my child. Yeah, it can't be around my child or

00:56:56.150 --> 00:56:57.630
it can't be around my extended family members

00:56:57.630 --> 00:56:59.329
who don't understand it or it can't be around

00:56:59.329 --> 00:57:00.969
the other professionals because I'll feel judged.

00:57:02.369 --> 00:57:05.250
it's a safe way to just leave it yeah just leave

00:57:05.250 --> 00:57:07.250
it and you can come back to it if you need to

00:57:07.250 --> 00:57:09.610
it's uh but that's it's completely free it's

00:57:09.610 --> 00:57:11.590
a circle space that's developing on the website

00:57:11.590 --> 00:57:13.869
at the moment so you can just jump in and uh

00:57:13.869 --> 00:57:16.389
and have a uh and have a share because it's also

00:57:16.389 --> 00:57:18.949
hard to be out sometimes you know depending on

00:57:19.440 --> 00:57:23.360
the small wins as well so many parents end up

00:57:23.360 --> 00:57:25.719
in my dms because they know i'll get how big

00:57:25.719 --> 00:57:28.760
this small win is yes and they can't share it

00:57:28.760 --> 00:57:30.219
with anybody else because they don't understand

00:57:30.219 --> 00:57:32.099
the significance of it so it's every it's all

00:57:32.099 --> 00:57:34.719
of that isn't it absolutely it's the whole thing

00:57:34.719 --> 00:57:38.280
is i just want to say this week he sat at the

00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:40.900
table yeah you know he sat at the table with

00:57:40.900 --> 00:57:44.260
the family the weight of that and the enormity

00:57:44.260 --> 00:57:47.179
of what that means You see the other mums smile.

00:57:47.340 --> 00:57:49.659
The other mums and dads just smile and you think,

00:57:49.719 --> 00:57:51.920
yeah, they get it. You know, they get it. This

00:57:51.920 --> 00:57:56.219
is huge for me, you know. I can do it. Or he

00:57:56.219 --> 00:57:57.760
actually would like to go back into the school

00:57:57.760 --> 00:58:00.739
place. Brilliant. What does that look like? You

00:58:00.739 --> 00:58:04.099
know, where are you? It's... I think it's important

00:58:04.099 --> 00:58:06.539
that we have that kind of support as well because

00:58:06.539 --> 00:58:09.360
it was definitely a little lacking on our journey.

00:58:09.420 --> 00:58:11.960
We had parents that were really, really well

00:58:11.960 --> 00:58:13.840
-meaning and everything else, but that safe place

00:58:13.840 --> 00:58:16.360
that you could just go, I just need to put that

00:58:16.360 --> 00:58:19.619
there. Somebody completely not in your circle,

00:58:19.659 --> 00:58:24.039
not related, but that safe person that can...

00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:26.820
just be a listening ear sometimes. That sounds

00:58:26.820 --> 00:58:29.780
really wonderful and incredibly needed. I'll

00:58:29.780 --> 00:58:31.480
make sure that all the links to all the things

00:58:31.480 --> 00:58:33.579
that you've just suggested is in the description

00:58:33.579 --> 00:58:35.760
below so that if people are listening and want

00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:37.739
to find it, then it will be down there. Thank

00:58:37.739 --> 00:58:41.530
you so much, Victoria, for this really... enlightening

00:58:41.530 --> 00:58:43.550
conversation thank you so much for sharing so

00:58:43.550 --> 00:58:46.489
honestly and openly about yours and your son's

00:58:46.489 --> 00:58:49.750
story and journey and I wish him every luck in

00:58:49.750 --> 00:58:52.190
his life it sounds like he's an incredible young

00:58:52.190 --> 00:58:55.010
man and has a very bright future ahead of him

00:58:55.010 --> 00:58:57.550
so thank you so much for yeah sharing your story

00:58:57.550 --> 00:59:00.230
and I really hope it's helpful to those listening

00:59:00.230 --> 00:59:02.969
thank you thank you very much for having me I

00:59:02.969 --> 00:59:05.650
really I hope it helps I'm sure it will thank

00:59:05.650 --> 00:59:05.969
you