WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.700 Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education 00:00:02.700 --> 00:00:06.160 teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:09.119 communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson 00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:11.660 ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged 00:00:11.660 --> 00:00:15.300 4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in 00:00:15.300 --> 00:00:17.640 the field answering your questions and sharing 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:19.559 our knowledge and experience working alongside 00:00:19.559 --> 00:00:22.539 our beautiful young people. Let's get started. 00:00:28.300 --> 00:00:30.920 First of all, a message about our sponsor. Today's 00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:33.640 sponsor is Octopus Energy. 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Hello everybody and 00:01:07.500 --> 00:01:10.120 welcome to the Sensory Classroom podcast. My 00:01:10.120 --> 00:01:13.560 name is Jordan and today I am joined by Sammy 00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:17.120 for the third time, I think, from Spectrum Patronum 00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:19.840 on Instagram, on her business. And she is a special 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:24.329 education teacher. and we align on so many different 00:01:24.329 --> 00:01:26.790 topics and we're kind of having a recent discussion 00:01:26.790 --> 00:01:32.670 um in the dms recently about person appropriateness 00:01:32.670 --> 00:01:35.189 and i'd love to talk more with her about that 00:01:35.189 --> 00:01:38.290 today hi sammy hi jordan thank you so much for 00:01:38.290 --> 00:01:40.510 having me back because i absolutely love it and 00:01:40.510 --> 00:01:42.810 like you said you and i are just on the same 00:01:42.810 --> 00:01:45.730 wavelength with everything so and when you talked 00:01:45.730 --> 00:01:48.489 about this on your stories i was like We need 00:01:48.489 --> 00:01:51.189 to talk about this for sure. And I like how you 00:01:51.189 --> 00:01:52.890 said person appropriate as well because that's 00:01:52.890 --> 00:01:54.349 something that I was going to bring up. It's 00:01:54.349 --> 00:01:57.290 not always necessarily child appropriate, adult 00:01:57.290 --> 00:01:59.590 appropriate. It is person appropriate, isn't 00:01:59.590 --> 00:02:04.290 it? Yes, absolutely. Do you want to explain first, 00:02:04.430 --> 00:02:07.810 if people haven't seen previous episodes or know 00:02:07.810 --> 00:02:09.310 anything about you, do you want to explain a 00:02:09.310 --> 00:02:11.629 little bit about who you are and what you do 00:02:11.629 --> 00:02:15.129 before we get into this? Yeah. So I am Sammy. 00:02:15.310 --> 00:02:18.710 I am a special needs teacher of children with 00:02:18.710 --> 00:02:21.430 complex needs, especially complex communication 00:02:21.430 --> 00:02:27.719 needs. And I also... I own a business similar 00:02:27.719 --> 00:02:31.740 to Jordan, just massive advocate of all things 00:02:31.740 --> 00:02:35.120 AAC and all things communication. Yeah, so that's 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:38.319 what I do. I've been working with children with 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:42.719 special needs since I was 17 and I'm now 34 and 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:48.599 my maths is really bad. And yeah, but I've been 00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:50.900 teaching for, this will be my eighth year teaching. 00:02:51.300 --> 00:02:55.539 I took a long way to get to my teaching. career 00:02:55.539 --> 00:02:59.139 because I did my degree through the Open University 00:02:59.139 --> 00:03:01.780 whilst I was working in special needs school 00:03:01.780 --> 00:03:05.860 getting all that experience and I'm also neurodivergent 00:03:05.860 --> 00:03:09.599 myself which I feel really helps me understand 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:13.139 and support the children so yeah. Yeah absolutely 00:03:13.139 --> 00:03:15.479 it's definitely an asset especially talking about 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:18.539 this topic of aid or person appropriateness it 00:03:18.539 --> 00:03:21.120 also feels personal and I think that's definitely 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:24.409 going to come up today I'm sure about that. person 00:03:24.409 --> 00:03:27.909 what that subject means for us as neurodivergent 00:03:27.909 --> 00:03:30.669 people as well as what it means for the people 00:03:30.669 --> 00:03:33.250 in our classrooms absolutely and the people that 00:03:33.250 --> 00:03:37.639 we are allies for and that we advocate for So 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:40.379 let's talk about this term age appropriateness. 00:03:40.500 --> 00:03:43.539 When are we seeing it being used? When are we 00:03:43.539 --> 00:03:45.800 seeing it being thrown around, this word age 00:03:45.800 --> 00:03:49.060 appropriateness? One time springs to mind, it 00:03:49.060 --> 00:03:51.360 was a good few years ago, and I was working with 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:55.139 teenagers at the time, PMLD teenagers. And this 00:03:55.139 --> 00:03:58.740 one pupil was really into the Teletubbies. It 00:03:58.740 --> 00:04:02.280 really motivated them and it really excited them. 00:04:02.300 --> 00:04:04.960 It helped. The toys helped him transition and 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:08.259 God, he should have had a Taytubby timetable 00:04:08.259 --> 00:04:10.639 and a Taytubby curriculum. Like it was just really 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:13.840 motivating to him and really exciting and obviously 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:16.259 gave him a dopamine hit and just really felt 00:04:16.259 --> 00:04:20.339 good. And what we should have been doing was 00:04:20.339 --> 00:04:22.560 connecting with him over that, using that as 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:25.480 a tool to build those relationships, that trust, 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:28.000 that understanding and flavoured the curriculum 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:30.040 around that. That's what we should have been 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:32.860 doing. But from senior leadership team, all we 00:04:32.860 --> 00:04:36.180 were getting was it's inappropriate. He's 14. 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:39.420 These are Tate hubbies. It looks babyish. He'll 00:04:39.420 --> 00:04:42.860 be ridiculed. It's not the real world. It's not 00:04:42.860 --> 00:04:45.480 what he should be into. It's babyish. We should 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.680 help him broaden his horizons and help him broaden 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:51.379 his interests. It's not appropriate. That's what 00:04:51.379 --> 00:04:55.769 we were being fed. and it's happened a few times 00:04:55.769 --> 00:04:57.829 also things being celebrated and thinking of 00:04:57.829 --> 00:04:59.850 another child that was really into the cinema 00:04:59.850 --> 00:05:02.689 like just as obsessively at this first boy with 00:05:02.689 --> 00:05:04.850 and that was into the teletubbies really into 00:05:04.850 --> 00:05:06.829 the cinema would bring cinema magazines every 00:05:06.829 --> 00:05:08.949 week we talk about it's all he'd talk about but 00:05:08.949 --> 00:05:11.910 yeah that was celebrated because that seemingly 00:05:11.910 --> 00:05:14.110 even though he's another 14 year old boy and 00:05:14.110 --> 00:05:16.050 with just as much of this obsession and special 00:05:16.050 --> 00:05:18.110 interest it's not just much a distraction honestly 00:05:18.110 --> 00:05:21.350 from what we yeah But that was seen as age appropriate. 00:05:21.490 --> 00:05:23.470 So therefore that was, yeah, celebrated and encouraged. 00:05:23.689 --> 00:05:26.889 And that's kind of where I'm coming from is this 00:05:26.889 --> 00:05:30.050 kind of, these two things and what was really 00:05:30.050 --> 00:05:34.629 happening there. Was it age appropriate? What 00:05:34.629 --> 00:05:39.529 does that turn even mean? And how can we navigate 00:05:39.529 --> 00:05:43.290 that? So do you have similar ideas of like, when 00:05:43.290 --> 00:05:46.050 I say that term, that those stories are called 00:05:46.050 --> 00:05:50.970 that? Absolutely, absolutely. for me like age 00:05:50.970 --> 00:05:53.610 appropriate I don't know if this is the way my 00:05:53.610 --> 00:05:55.629 brain thinks has my my brain has always gone 00:05:55.629 --> 00:05:58.810 age appropriate literal this is probably a literal 00:05:58.810 --> 00:06:03.649 thinking is okay you've got to be 18 to be able 00:06:03.649 --> 00:06:06.750 to be like to be exposed to like it's the harmful 00:06:06.750 --> 00:06:09.569 stuff that I always think of you know when you 00:06:09.569 --> 00:06:14.649 put um like age limits on things to protect children 00:06:14.649 --> 00:06:18.290 that's where I feel like the age appropriateness 00:06:19.129 --> 00:06:21.430 is appropriate do you know what I mean like so 00:06:21.430 --> 00:06:23.649 I'm ensuring they're not exposed to like certain 00:06:23.649 --> 00:06:27.629 like violence and drugs and alcohol etc etc that 00:06:27.629 --> 00:06:32.970 is to protect children but I just don't see how 00:06:32.970 --> 00:06:37.490 it can be used when it's against someone's interest 00:06:37.490 --> 00:06:41.550 that is it's appropriate it wasn't like he he 00:06:41.550 --> 00:06:45.129 was highly interested in serial killers or something 00:06:45.129 --> 00:06:47.569 do you know like even though like you know and 00:06:47.569 --> 00:06:49.970 it's like you say we should be like sort of leaning 00:06:49.970 --> 00:06:53.610 into their interest -based you know and and I 00:06:53.610 --> 00:06:56.209 know that um we've spoken about this previously 00:06:56.209 --> 00:06:59.629 but like we are very much person -based approaches 00:06:59.629 --> 00:07:03.089 individual on an individual basis in our classrooms 00:07:03.089 --> 00:07:06.959 and we always go interest -based We always go 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:09.420 interest -based. And I don't think it's fair, 00:07:09.579 --> 00:07:12.300 like you just said, that example that one child, 00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:15.339 because it seemed more appropriate to society. 00:07:16.360 --> 00:07:18.660 Yeah. That's what it is, isn't it? It comes down 00:07:18.660 --> 00:07:20.819 to it was more appropriate to society for that 00:07:20.819 --> 00:07:23.139 child to be interested or that young person to 00:07:23.139 --> 00:07:25.860 be interested in the cinema. But when it comes 00:07:25.860 --> 00:07:29.620 to Teletubbies, it's not. But it's their interest. 00:07:30.019 --> 00:07:32.899 So I don't see why that's a problem because it's 00:07:32.899 --> 00:07:35.439 not harming anybody. Yeah, you've said some really 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:37.779 great points there. One thing I didn't even consider 00:07:37.779 --> 00:07:40.459 was when the term age appropriate is actually 00:07:40.459 --> 00:07:43.120 relevant, which is so true. It's about safety. 00:07:43.300 --> 00:07:45.579 And I suppose even then age appropriate doesn't 00:07:45.579 --> 00:07:47.639 work either because lots of my learners that 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:50.660 have been 18, 19 still wouldn't be safe for them 00:07:50.660 --> 00:07:54.819 to watch an 18 or 19 rated movie. It would be 00:07:54.819 --> 00:07:56.939 incredibly scary for them, really confusing. 00:07:57.040 --> 00:07:59.019 And I would want to protect them from that because 00:07:59.019 --> 00:08:01.240 of where they are at cognitively. Absolutely. 00:08:01.300 --> 00:08:04.250 Even the term age appropriate does... seems ableist 00:08:04.250 --> 00:08:07.410 in that too it's assuming that everybody at age 00:08:07.410 --> 00:08:10.550 18 is ready for that when actually even without 00:08:10.550 --> 00:08:14.189 neuro complexities and neurodiversity some 18 00:08:14.189 --> 00:08:16.310 and 19 year olds still find that really scary 00:08:16.310 --> 00:08:21.069 or not they're not ready for that I for one don't 00:08:21.069 --> 00:08:24.750 watch scary movies I can't even watch scary adverts 00:08:24.750 --> 00:08:28.610 of scary movies I'm watching Wednesday at the 00:08:28.610 --> 00:08:31.149 moment and that's my limit like I love Wednesday 00:08:31.149 --> 00:08:34.419 but that is honestly my limit um change of things 00:08:34.419 --> 00:08:37.419 is just over the limit and I bear it because 00:08:37.419 --> 00:08:39.759 it's so good but um that really is my limit like 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:41.860 I can't watch any horror or scary because because 00:08:41.860 --> 00:08:44.539 it isn't appropriate for me and my tolerance 00:08:44.539 --> 00:08:48.759 levels and I'm 36 yeah so like this term age 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:52.559 appropriate just seems so blanket statement like 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:56.240 when you're 18 it is appropriate too just doesn't 00:08:56.240 --> 00:09:01.019 work for most people I can imagine no I completely 00:09:01.019 --> 00:09:05.200 agree it is it's concerning really like when 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:07.720 you still when we and you know I'm fully aware 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:10.679 that there are still a lot of people out there 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:14.840 who like 14 I'm in a primary school so working 00:09:14.840 --> 00:09:16.659 with children up to the age of 11 and I'm like 00:09:16.659 --> 00:09:19.080 you know and I'm sure there'll be people thinking 00:09:19.080 --> 00:09:21.019 oh you're too old for that at the age of nine 00:09:21.690 --> 00:09:24.210 you know all you're too you know too young is 00:09:24.210 --> 00:09:26.909 a bit different isn't it with like all the things 00:09:26.909 --> 00:09:29.110 that we've just spoken about but you're you know 00:09:29.110 --> 00:09:31.330 that all that's babyish you said that term and 00:09:31.330 --> 00:09:33.429 I was like oh that's such it's almost like a 00:09:33.429 --> 00:09:36.769 triggering term like when you can say it's babyish 00:09:36.769 --> 00:09:39.669 to like something and another thing is sort of 00:09:39.669 --> 00:09:43.129 like I know that you'll also probably be very 00:09:43.129 --> 00:09:45.710 aware and probably agree with me on this is like 00:09:45.710 --> 00:09:49.399 baby bottles no it's just a bottle Or like if 00:09:49.399 --> 00:09:51.799 they've got a dummy and, oh, that's babyish, 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:54.440 you don't need that. Yeah, and pads. We don't 00:09:54.440 --> 00:09:57.379 call pads babyish, so nappies or pads. We don't 00:09:57.379 --> 00:09:59.740 call them babyish because it's needed and necessary. 00:09:59.860 --> 00:10:02.899 We should be seeing their form of drinking, their 00:10:02.899 --> 00:10:06.379 form of eating, the same as that, shouldn't we? 00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:08.279 We should see it as just a necessary thing that 00:10:08.279 --> 00:10:10.659 they need. Absolutely. We would never actually 00:10:10.659 --> 00:10:13.799 say, oh, this pad's a bit babyish, would you 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:16.500 ever? No, we wouldn't. absolutely especially 00:10:16.500 --> 00:10:19.240 when it comes to those basic needs like pads 00:10:19.240 --> 00:10:22.600 and I don't know if you're there's a bottle and 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:25.820 yeah the dummy too sometimes yeah absolutely 00:10:25.820 --> 00:10:29.360 and it's about at the end of the day it's about 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:32.500 supporting them to meet their needs isn't it 00:10:32.500 --> 00:10:35.960 and actually if they're drinking from a bottle 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:40.159 of a bottle that may be that's fine that's okay 00:10:41.019 --> 00:10:43.740 And I just it makes me sad that, you know, there's 00:10:43.740 --> 00:10:45.659 some sometimes there may be people that would 00:10:45.659 --> 00:10:47.919 be more concerned about moving them onto a cup 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:50.659 rather than them actually drinking. At the end 00:10:50.659 --> 00:10:52.179 of the day, I just think as long as you're as 00:10:52.179 --> 00:10:54.059 long as they're drinking, because that can be, 00:10:54.059 --> 00:10:56.399 you know, for some children like with ARFID or 00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:00.259 who really struggle, actually, let's not let's 00:11:00.259 --> 00:11:02.879 not introduce. Let's not introduce anything else. 00:11:02.899 --> 00:11:05.639 As long as they are drinking, that's what's important. 00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:07.840 And that doesn't mean that you can't have other 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:10.820 options available or be modelling other options. 00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:12.980 I don't want people to listen to this and be 00:11:12.980 --> 00:11:15.220 like, oh, like you're not even trying to move 00:11:15.220 --> 00:11:17.159 them on. No, that's not what we're saying. Like 00:11:17.159 --> 00:11:19.360 have all the options available, model all the 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:21.820 options, fill up the juice in all the options 00:11:21.820 --> 00:11:24.870 and then let them choose. absolutely without 00:11:24.870 --> 00:11:27.330 any demand or pressure even if they have offered 00:11:27.330 --> 00:11:29.330 i think that's a really great example without 00:11:29.330 --> 00:11:32.409 like don't get them to do it um don't have that 00:11:32.409 --> 00:11:35.370 expectation but just have it available it doesn't 00:11:35.370 --> 00:11:37.129 hurt or harm and if it seems distressing even 00:11:37.129 --> 00:11:39.570 to look at it then that's fine like move it away 00:11:39.570 --> 00:11:41.610 but but at least you know that you know what 00:11:41.610 --> 00:11:44.690 this is then their choice yeah it's the options 00:11:44.690 --> 00:11:48.419 isn't it it's um there's no harm in trying other 00:11:48.419 --> 00:11:52.019 options however if it causes distress we're not 00:11:52.019 --> 00:11:53.799 you know and that's the thing I think that we're 00:11:53.799 --> 00:11:56.240 very similar on we we are never we never force 00:11:56.240 --> 00:12:00.779 conformity for the sake of society for example 00:12:00.779 --> 00:12:05.200 but we you know we have those options and we 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:09.759 make sure that we model when we we do this all 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:12.539 the time in class we have our own bottles we'll 00:12:12.539 --> 00:12:15.480 bring in like a we'll bring in just like a like 00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:17.860 a metal bottle then we might have carp and other 00:12:17.860 --> 00:12:20.980 things and you know we're modeling as well um 00:12:20.980 --> 00:12:22.820 that's another thing isn't it like how can we 00:12:22.820 --> 00:12:25.139 expect the same with communication how can we 00:12:25.139 --> 00:12:29.000 expect um the children to try these new things 00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:31.440 if we're not modeling it to them as well do you 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:37.080 think that this comes from how their carer whether 00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:39.240 that be a teacher teacher assistant parent whatever 00:12:39.950 --> 00:12:42.690 feels judged from others because I've certainly 00:12:42.690 --> 00:12:46.690 felt like that on paper and I really try and 00:12:46.690 --> 00:12:50.389 practice to do exactly what you just said go 00:12:50.389 --> 00:12:55.429 person approach person first choices and be led 00:12:55.429 --> 00:12:59.429 by them but I've also I would be lying if I didn't 00:12:59.429 --> 00:13:03.789 say that I've felt oh like they're judging me 00:13:03.789 --> 00:13:07.639 like Do you know, like I felt that when we've 00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:10.139 been gone on trips to the zoo and I don't know, 00:13:10.139 --> 00:13:12.919 one of my learners is pushed in or has a dummy 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:15.580 in or whatever, whatever it is. I've definitely 00:13:15.580 --> 00:13:19.120 been like, oh, like, yeah. And I don't want to 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:20.799 make an excuse, but you almost want to be like, 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:22.600 oh, they're just autistic or they're just, you 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:24.340 know, like it's like, and it's like, oh, I've 00:13:24.340 --> 00:13:26.620 definitely felt that. And I'm the teacher. So 00:13:26.620 --> 00:13:29.600 I can only imagine what it's like for parents 00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:32.960 day in, day out to have that constant judgment 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:35.980 and shame put on them. for doing exactly the 00:13:35.980 --> 00:13:38.340 right thing of putting their child's needs first. 00:13:38.779 --> 00:13:41.679 Absolutely. Or that there's no judgment if, like, 00:13:41.700 --> 00:13:44.100 that's your motivation to, like, try and make 00:13:44.100 --> 00:13:46.360 a change. Because I get it. I have felt that. 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:49.940 Yeah. I'm not immune to that. I've definitely 00:13:49.940 --> 00:13:53.659 felt judged by a child's behavior. I was a foster 00:13:53.659 --> 00:13:56.700 carer for a few years, but we had this one boy 00:13:56.700 --> 00:14:01.240 for about 11 months who had a disability, a cognitive 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:04.820 disability. And a lot of trauma as well. And 00:14:04.820 --> 00:14:08.120 would have these kind of tantrum -like episodes 00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:11.980 out in public. And I had to just really sit with 00:14:11.980 --> 00:14:17.419 myself and let everything else that was on the 00:14:17.419 --> 00:14:20.940 periphery go. All the looks, all the little comments, 00:14:21.059 --> 00:14:24.340 all the judgment. And just know that I was doing 00:14:24.340 --> 00:14:28.460 the right thing by, you know. Not telling you 00:14:28.460 --> 00:14:31.080 off, for example, letting it ride out, you know, 00:14:31.100 --> 00:14:33.139 all those kind of things. Trusting your instincts. 00:14:33.139 --> 00:14:34.940 Doing the calm to the chaos and all of those 00:14:34.940 --> 00:14:36.899 things. Whereas actually what I think they wanted 00:14:36.899 --> 00:14:38.840 me to be was like, well, he was bigger than me, 00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:40.940 but like pick him up and like march him off or 00:14:40.940 --> 00:14:43.580 whatever. And that absolutely wasn't what I could 00:14:43.580 --> 00:14:47.419 or would want to do. But I felt in some capacity 00:14:47.419 --> 00:14:50.740 of like that judgment and knowing I was doing 00:14:50.740 --> 00:14:53.580 the right thing, but that judgment must get exhausting 00:14:53.580 --> 00:14:57.240 as well. Yeah. And this, this like stems down 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:01.360 to just acceptance, isn't it? And awareness. 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:05.399 And like every year in April, you know, you always 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:07.820 see these autism acceptance, autism awareness, 00:15:08.019 --> 00:15:12.679 and we need both. But it's still, I think, built 00:15:12.679 --> 00:15:16.980 into people to have, it is still built in that. 00:15:17.419 --> 00:15:21.240 there's an expectation in society and if something's 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:24.919 on or if someone's not handling or managing something 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:28.779 in the way that you might manage it I think that's 00:15:28.779 --> 00:15:30.639 another thing as well like you say it's there's 00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:32.240 you're probably like feeling that you're feeling 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:35.840 the judgment when you're out but also those people 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:40.179 that are judging I think I don't know like have 00:15:40.179 --> 00:15:42.340 they experienced have they experienced it how 00:15:42.340 --> 00:15:44.259 would they handle it and actually that the way 00:15:44.259 --> 00:15:46.440 they handle it at the end of the day it comes 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:48.200 down to the child doesn't it or that or that 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:52.559 person and what's best for them yet we are still 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:56.659 very much worried about other people and what 00:15:56.659 --> 00:15:59.480 other people think and I do think it is valid 00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:02.919 really it's you know what and what things look 00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:06.799 like as well so you know a child or young person 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:11.059 may be self -harming or doing some behaviors 00:16:11.059 --> 00:16:14.139 and other people might think why are you not 00:16:14.139 --> 00:16:16.360 stepping in but actually there's a behavior plan 00:16:16.360 --> 00:16:19.620 in place or there's you know you know this child 00:16:19.620 --> 00:16:22.940 or young person so well you know what needs to 00:16:22.940 --> 00:16:27.059 happen or what you that you need to wait and 00:16:27.059 --> 00:16:30.159 there's a reason why you are or you are not stepping 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:33.659 in But again, it's just the judgment from other 00:16:33.659 --> 00:16:36.159 people. And sometimes the judgment is real and 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:39.779 sometimes it's in our own heads too. Like I was 00:16:39.779 --> 00:16:42.679 sitting there feeling judged, even if the other 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:45.179 people around me weren't even noticing or were 00:16:45.179 --> 00:16:47.379 walking past or actually thinking, God, she's 00:16:47.379 --> 00:16:51.700 doing well or whatever. Yeah. I don't know what 00:16:51.700 --> 00:16:54.220 they were thinking. It's internal that I was 00:16:54.220 --> 00:16:57.740 feeling shame and judged. And I don't think I've 00:16:57.740 --> 00:17:00.389 ever turned around and thought, someone walked 00:17:00.389 --> 00:17:03.190 past and thought I was doing a great job when 00:17:03.190 --> 00:17:05.230 have we ever been positive about that actually 00:17:05.230 --> 00:17:08.930 that's that's very yeah and I've never walked 00:17:08.930 --> 00:17:13.430 past someone of of a clearly distressed you know 00:17:13.430 --> 00:17:16.869 dysregulation and thought and judged the carer 00:17:16.869 --> 00:17:19.930 for it ever yeah I've always thought oh my god 00:17:19.930 --> 00:17:23.170 that looks challenging could I be helpful oh 00:17:23.170 --> 00:17:26.410 no probably not and then walked on my thoughts 00:17:27.710 --> 00:17:30.029 yeah sometimes I give them like a knowing smile 00:17:30.029 --> 00:17:34.190 as like a comrade um in some ways but other times 00:17:34.190 --> 00:17:37.029 sometimes it's best to just move on and just 00:17:37.029 --> 00:17:38.730 trust that they know them and they've they've 00:17:38.730 --> 00:17:43.869 got it in hand I'm certainly not judging no and 00:17:43.869 --> 00:17:47.470 we've got that understanding and the experience 00:17:47.470 --> 00:17:51.289 sometimes I've walked past like say a parent 00:17:51.289 --> 00:17:54.150 in the shop and And like, they might have sunflower 00:17:54.150 --> 00:17:56.430 lanyard or something and child may be having 00:17:56.430 --> 00:17:59.609 a tricky time. And I want to almost go up to 00:17:59.609 --> 00:18:01.990 the parent and be like, or whoever they are, 00:18:02.009 --> 00:18:05.430 Kara, can I help you in any way? And I just think, 00:18:05.490 --> 00:18:07.549 this is not my place. I don't know this child. 00:18:07.630 --> 00:18:09.910 I don't have a relationship with this child. 00:18:11.490 --> 00:18:15.089 Like, you know, if the parent looks extremely 00:18:15.089 --> 00:18:17.450 distressed and like they need some moral support, 00:18:17.569 --> 00:18:20.390 then yes, but otherwise. You know, it's just 00:18:20.390 --> 00:18:23.890 no judgment from us, obviously. No, no, being 00:18:23.890 --> 00:18:26.509 a parent in that situation, because I only was 00:18:26.509 --> 00:18:28.210 for 11 months, but I don't know if I can speak 00:18:28.210 --> 00:18:32.349 a little bit. Yeah. I wouldn't have felt bad 00:18:32.349 --> 00:18:35.089 if someone did say, like, Judy felt, because 00:18:35.089 --> 00:18:40.390 the worst I could say is no. Yeah. Or even a 00:18:40.390 --> 00:18:43.740 gestured no, I've got it. but actually in some 00:18:43.740 --> 00:18:46.079 instance it was really helpful when people did 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:48.400 step in for that change of face even if it was 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:51.640 a stranger so like I had shopkeepers come out 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:55.019 and offer my child a drink and just the fact 00:18:55.019 --> 00:18:58.859 that it was a change of face a man and a stranger 00:18:58.859 --> 00:19:01.599 meant that it kind of did snap him out of it 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:04.059 and it kind of really did calm him down I couldn't 00:19:04.059 --> 00:19:07.160 have done that because I was the like I was the 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:10.180 one that they were angry at you know actually 00:19:10.180 --> 00:19:12.519 someone else going in was really helpful genuinely 00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:15.079 or sometimes you just like could you just put 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:17.039 this toy back on the shelf or could you just 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:19.819 grab a bag for me or actually I've left my handbag 00:19:19.819 --> 00:19:22.559 two miles down that way could you grab it for 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:25.420 me yeah like for my husband's in the car could 00:19:25.420 --> 00:19:28.420 you could you try and get here like or whatever 00:19:28.420 --> 00:19:31.500 it is like actually asking that even though you 00:19:31.500 --> 00:19:33.400 can't help with the child or the young person 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:37.990 directly is still helpful and ultimately even 00:19:37.990 --> 00:19:41.410 if all it does is show them like you're not alone 00:19:41.410 --> 00:19:44.589 in this like we are not against you we're not 00:19:44.589 --> 00:19:47.210 judging you like is there anything we can do 00:19:47.210 --> 00:19:50.029 and yeah actually I've just had like that realization 00:19:50.029 --> 00:19:54.140 from this conversation There's us saying how 00:19:54.140 --> 00:19:55.960 when we're in that situation, you're feeling 00:19:55.960 --> 00:19:58.519 judged. Actually, if you just went up to that 00:19:58.519 --> 00:19:59.599 person and was like, is there anything I can 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:02.240 do to help you? Not your child, but can I help 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:06.660 you? If someone came up to say that to me, then 00:20:06.660 --> 00:20:09.200 I probably wouldn't feel judged. I'd feel like, 00:20:09.299 --> 00:20:13.259 oh, okay. You might feel embarrassed. But then 00:20:13.259 --> 00:20:15.819 if that's the worst that can come of that, then 00:20:15.819 --> 00:20:23.490 I feel like that's still okay, isn't it? than 00:20:23.490 --> 00:20:25.549 like nobody wants to like some people don't like 00:20:25.549 --> 00:20:27.509 charity or help do they even if they need it 00:20:27.509 --> 00:20:29.670 and that's fine you know but at least you've 00:20:29.670 --> 00:20:33.190 given them an opportunity to say yes or no and 00:20:33.190 --> 00:20:35.430 the more people are doing that the easier it 00:20:35.430 --> 00:20:37.470 might be for them to accept some help because 00:20:37.470 --> 00:20:39.289 it's really hard when you're used to doing it 00:20:39.289 --> 00:20:42.789 on your own as a foster carer this boy was out 00:20:42.789 --> 00:20:46.480 of school yeah excluded for those 11 months i 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:48.579 was we didn't see a social worker for three months 00:20:48.579 --> 00:20:50.920 so i was social worker teacher parent all of 00:20:50.920 --> 00:20:52.480 the things and i only did that for 11 months 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:54.160 like these parents that we're talking about have 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:57.779 been doing it for 9 10 11 12 13 14 years and 00:20:57.779 --> 00:21:00.279 they are that sole person that teacher it's not 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:02.920 easy for them to accept help from other people 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:05.319 because they've had to do it on their own for 00:21:05.319 --> 00:21:07.740 so long so you might not get it yes straight 00:21:07.740 --> 00:21:10.660 away but that's not a reason to stop asking no 00:21:10.660 --> 00:21:13.969 i think it's even more the reason to like keep 00:21:13.969 --> 00:21:18.730 asking honestly yeah and I just think well the 00:21:18.730 --> 00:21:20.569 worst that can come of it is like they feel a 00:21:20.569 --> 00:21:22.269 little bit embarrassed they say no and then you 00:21:22.269 --> 00:21:25.150 walk on with your day like yeah they might reflect 00:21:25.150 --> 00:21:29.849 on that later yeah and feel a little bit like 00:21:29.849 --> 00:21:31.970 comforted maybe I don't know I don't know I'd 00:21:31.970 --> 00:21:34.589 love to hear from parents actually on this yeah 00:21:34.589 --> 00:21:36.990 it would that would yeah it would be interesting 00:21:36.990 --> 00:21:41.289 to hear from parents and actually and that that 00:21:41.289 --> 00:21:44.559 also comes down to what you as a parent prefer 00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:48.400 would you prefer to someone come along and there's 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:50.900 and that's also probably a situation based but 00:21:50.900 --> 00:21:53.119 some situations probably like oh no I'm fine 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:55.660 other situations yes I actually could do could 00:21:55.660 --> 00:21:58.079 you go and do this that and the other for me 00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:01.019 yeah I know that's such a good point and I suppose 00:22:01.019 --> 00:22:03.900 like whenever I think I would always be worried 00:22:04.569 --> 00:22:07.130 I think this is like my brain now. I'd always 00:22:07.130 --> 00:22:09.109 be worried that they think, oh, what, so you 00:22:09.109 --> 00:22:12.349 think you can do a better job? Yeah. No one's 00:22:12.349 --> 00:22:15.589 ever said that to me. You definitely need to 00:22:15.589 --> 00:22:18.670 be careful about how it comes across. Yeah. Like 00:22:18.670 --> 00:22:21.809 you say, asking if they need help, not the child. 00:22:21.930 --> 00:22:24.990 You're not coming in as a hero with a cape. You're 00:22:24.990 --> 00:22:27.230 just saying like, is there anything I can do 00:22:27.230 --> 00:22:30.650 to help you in this situation? And I think that's 00:22:30.650 --> 00:22:33.059 like. that's just my brain then probably like 00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:35.599 going at each other like shall we ask she asks 00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:37.859 them if they need support oh no you don't want 00:22:37.859 --> 00:22:39.839 to come across like you know what you're doing 00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:42.900 because you don't know this child and it's like 00:22:42.900 --> 00:22:45.640 a little bit of an internal like fight with itself 00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:48.619 but I definitely you know I definitely think 00:22:48.619 --> 00:22:51.319 like you say like I think giving the option and 00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:54.659 then the parent can make that decision is yeah 00:22:54.659 --> 00:22:57.099 what's better and even better if you're working 00:22:57.099 --> 00:22:59.380 at the establishment this is happening i think 00:22:59.380 --> 00:23:02.220 it's one thing that a customer would like a fellow 00:23:02.220 --> 00:23:04.420 customer us as a fellow customer would go up 00:23:04.420 --> 00:23:06.359 and we can support but if you're somebody in 00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:08.279 uniform that's like working at that establishment 00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:12.180 i just feel like it's your duty to ask if they 00:23:12.180 --> 00:23:13.940 need any assistance even if you feel like you 00:23:13.940 --> 00:23:15.319 can't help with the child directly because i 00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:17.180 don't think the parent or carer will ever ask 00:23:17.180 --> 00:23:19.440 you to interact with the child directly i just 00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:21.099 don't think that's going to happen no it might 00:23:21.099 --> 00:23:23.759 like actually do you know what like can you just 00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:25.980 put some cones around us please or can you just 00:23:25.980 --> 00:23:28.660 close off the aisle or can you just dim the lights 00:23:28.660 --> 00:23:30.400 or can you stop the music please or whatever 00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:32.480 it is like you might have control over something 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:34.359 that could really really help this situation 00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:38.920 that's yeah that is very true so yeah if if you're 00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:41.140 listening to this and don't have any experience 00:23:41.140 --> 00:23:42.900 in autism I don't know why you're here but if 00:23:42.900 --> 00:23:44.799 you do if you're one of these people but you 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:46.859 and you work in an establishment that this could 00:23:46.859 --> 00:23:49.559 happen in then then there are still things that 00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:52.049 you could do to help even if even if you're not 00:23:52.049 --> 00:23:55.589 sure about you know the disability itself and 00:23:55.589 --> 00:23:58.569 that also goes for invisible disabilities and 00:23:58.569 --> 00:24:00.750 all ages and this comes back to age appropriateness 00:24:00.750 --> 00:24:04.470 again you might see a seemingly like 40 year 00:24:04.470 --> 00:24:10.710 old man with no seemingly disabilities on the 00:24:10.710 --> 00:24:14.250 outset acting in a certain way and they are also 00:24:14.250 --> 00:24:21.410 judged as a drug user or an alcoholic or unhinged 00:24:21.410 --> 00:24:24.029 or all those kind of terms that we hear but it 00:24:24.029 --> 00:24:26.990 really might be in a visible disability and they 00:24:26.990 --> 00:24:29.250 need to be treated in the same way are you okay 00:24:29.250 --> 00:24:31.710 can i help you you know don't put yourself maybe 00:24:31.710 --> 00:24:35.509 in a in harm's way but you could certainly ask 00:24:35.509 --> 00:24:37.210 somebody that works at the establishment or work 00:24:37.210 --> 00:24:39.950 somewhere close by to check in on them and check 00:24:39.950 --> 00:24:43.069 that they are okay and that and that everything's 00:24:43.069 --> 00:24:46.369 okay for them i would say as well absolutely 00:24:46.369 --> 00:24:49.529 i totally agree i'm bringing it back to that 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:54.759 age appropriateness conversation I think you 00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:57.579 know it is important that when you see people 00:24:57.579 --> 00:25:00.319 walking around you know you're not judging what 00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:03.259 they what they're well I'd hope you know there's 00:25:03.259 --> 00:25:05.660 a lot more awareness now but you're not judging 00:25:05.660 --> 00:25:08.200 what they're wearing or if they're carrying like 00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:12.079 a like a cuddly toy or something even if they 00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:17.519 are 40 years old I think you know it's so I think 00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:20.630 something that I think isn't it like this again 00:25:20.630 --> 00:25:24.349 this is a kind of a bit different but I think 00:25:24.349 --> 00:25:27.890 there's some things that that are accepted in 00:25:27.890 --> 00:25:32.210 society and one of those things and if you know 00:25:32.210 --> 00:25:34.650 me you know I'm a big fan is Disney like Disney 00:25:34.650 --> 00:25:37.109 adults is a big thing and it's kind of like oh 00:25:37.109 --> 00:25:38.849 they just love they love Disney oh they love 00:25:38.849 --> 00:25:43.089 Disney but when it's a child liking Teletubbies 00:25:43.089 --> 00:25:45.579 but like Disney like was I mean it is family 00:25:45.579 --> 00:25:48.140 orientated but a lot of it is for children and 00:25:48.140 --> 00:25:49.740 a lot of people still believe it's for children 00:25:49.740 --> 00:25:52.460 yet you've got loads of adults who walk around 00:25:52.460 --> 00:25:55.759 with Disney like different well if you saw me 00:25:55.759 --> 00:25:57.960 in the street so when I wasn't working I'd usually 00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:00.920 be wearing a Disney t -shirt or something and 00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:02.960 but that's something that's a bit more accepted. 00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:07.220 Yeah so what makes that okay in comparison is 00:26:07.220 --> 00:26:10.079 it just perception is it is it that people see 00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:13.000 more of that so it becomes more socially acceptable? 00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:18.019 What is it? I do. I think I think you're right 00:26:18.019 --> 00:26:22.000 there. I think it's everywhere. It's it's and 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:27.019 you get mainstream shops and supermarkets selling 00:26:27.019 --> 00:26:30.619 Disney T -shirts, Disney pajamas for adults. 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:35.500 So it it's like mainstream is like almost like 00:26:35.500 --> 00:26:38.819 saying it's OK. It's almost like here you go. 00:26:39.450 --> 00:26:41.609 We're selling this and because we're selling 00:26:41.609 --> 00:26:43.750 this and people are buying it, it's accepted. 00:26:44.250 --> 00:26:50.509 Whereas on some of the Lego sets, it says like 00:26:50.509 --> 00:26:53.930 16 plus on it. Therefore, they're saying that 00:26:53.930 --> 00:26:56.509 this is okay for young adults and adults. It's 00:26:56.509 --> 00:26:58.309 also, and that's another thing, isn't it? Lego, 00:26:58.410 --> 00:27:02.390 like that's seemingly ageless. But, and yet, 00:27:02.450 --> 00:27:06.690 actually, why is that in comparison to some other 00:27:06.690 --> 00:27:10.660 things? Other toys. as well because like you're 00:27:10.660 --> 00:27:13.119 so right with lego and obviously again i'm a 00:27:13.119 --> 00:27:16.019 big lego fan got lots of the big sets like my 00:27:16.019 --> 00:27:19.759 dad's a big lego fan he's got the titanic like 00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:22.740 people like oh my gosh that's so cool or they 00:27:22.740 --> 00:27:24.259 go over and they see like all these big star 00:27:24.259 --> 00:27:26.940 wars ships oh that's amazing that's so cool if 00:27:26.940 --> 00:27:30.420 you saw a 50 60 year old playing with play -doh 00:27:30.420 --> 00:27:34.299 you're gonna probably be like hmm yeah but then 00:27:34.299 --> 00:27:36.799 yet after seeing an air -dried clay isn't appropriate 00:27:37.769 --> 00:27:40.009 yeah it's like we make these weird little social 00:27:40.009 --> 00:27:42.549 rules for ourselves that we can fit into and 00:27:42.549 --> 00:27:44.670 be accepted and I feel like that's a very human 00:27:44.670 --> 00:27:48.789 trait to kind of to slot our likes and interests 00:27:48.789 --> 00:27:52.329 into these like socially accepted things yeah 00:27:52.329 --> 00:27:54.410 and it doesn't just go with interests and hobbies 00:27:54.410 --> 00:27:58.069 it goes on to food preferences like I would feel 00:27:58.069 --> 00:28:00.269 really judged if I ordered from the kids menu 00:28:00.759 --> 00:28:03.299 often that's something that I want to do and 00:28:03.299 --> 00:28:06.019 if I didn't feel judged by others I would just 00:28:06.019 --> 00:28:08.220 order two lots of whatever's on the kids menu 00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:10.240 because that's ultimately what I want I don't 00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:13.920 want any of your like salads or like mixed up 00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:16.140 posh food like I just want fish fingers and chips 00:28:16.140 --> 00:28:19.180 or whatever it is I just have two of them because 00:28:19.180 --> 00:28:21.000 I don't want child portions I just want child 00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:24.819 choices um but it goes into all of these things 00:28:24.819 --> 00:28:26.559 doesn't it so it's not just hobbies it's like 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:30.140 in it's like interwoven into like when do we 00:28:30.140 --> 00:28:32.220 learn this I feel like it maybe it's younger 00:28:32.220 --> 00:28:34.319 and younger I'm watching the mainstream kids 00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:38.559 that are attached to my school and um they seem 00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:41.940 aware of it really young now like age six they'll 00:28:41.940 --> 00:28:45.079 be saying that's babyish I'm not doing I'm even 00:28:45.079 --> 00:28:46.920 younger than that to be fair I've heard people 00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:49.259 in earlier years saying like that's babyish I 00:28:49.259 --> 00:28:52.000 don't do that and it's like wow like you are 00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:55.619 children you are young children and you are using 00:28:55.619 --> 00:28:59.049 that term baby at all that's girly that's the 00:28:59.049 --> 00:29:02.549 other thing isn't it what is learn isn't it what 00:29:02.549 --> 00:29:04.769 kind of like learn about these social norms of 00:29:04.769 --> 00:29:07.069 what's acceptable what's not acceptable and it 00:29:07.069 --> 00:29:10.450 is learned so young now that it's kind of like 00:29:10.450 --> 00:29:13.690 embedded in our psyche and i just don't know 00:29:13.690 --> 00:29:16.730 how to unlearn that but it's really important 00:29:16.730 --> 00:29:20.769 for neurodivergent friends that we really try 00:29:20.769 --> 00:29:23.960 to because god yeah we talk about acceptance 00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:27.160 and that is the start of it is just accepting 00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:30.099 them for who they are like that is it it's basics 00:29:30.099 --> 00:29:32.180 and it starts with this stuff it starts with 00:29:32.180 --> 00:29:35.240 accepting their likes and dislikes and interests 00:29:35.240 --> 00:29:39.460 that that is all okay absolutely and even if 00:29:39.460 --> 00:29:42.500 you don't think that something is appropriate 00:29:42.500 --> 00:29:46.940 for them I think reflecting on yourself and what 00:29:46.940 --> 00:29:51.259 you think is appropriate and is it it probably 00:29:51.259 --> 00:29:53.960 is appropriate for them but we've just like you 00:29:53.960 --> 00:29:56.819 said been brought up in a world and in a society 00:29:56.819 --> 00:29:59.980 that says it isn't but also that kind of dictates 00:29:59.980 --> 00:30:02.740 what isn't what toys are appropriate for adults 00:30:02.740 --> 00:30:06.099 like lego for example like we just said and what 00:30:06.099 --> 00:30:09.680 cartoons essentially are appropriate for all 00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:12.099 you know pokemon's another one you have a lot 00:30:12.099 --> 00:30:14.759 of adults who love pokemon and then that's also 00:30:14.759 --> 00:30:18.680 i found like quite a common interest in a lot 00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:21.039 of autistic children and autistic adults but 00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:24.700 also neurotypical people as well absolutely what's 00:30:24.700 --> 00:30:31.039 happening there so why do autistic people hang 00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:35.880 on to those early childhood likes and interests 00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:37.960 what's your feeling on that because it seems 00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:40.140 really common doesn't it like they like thomas 00:30:40.140 --> 00:30:42.079 the tank engine when they're younger they like 00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:44.930 it still at 30 they liked in the night garden 00:30:44.930 --> 00:30:47.130 at, you know, three years old, they still like 00:30:47.130 --> 00:30:51.970 it when they're 30. What is that? I'm not sure. 00:30:52.029 --> 00:30:54.650 However, I know that I still have a lot of interests 00:30:54.650 --> 00:30:58.450 from when I was a child that I have held on to. 00:30:58.769 --> 00:31:04.470 And I think it might just stem down to your focused 00:31:04.470 --> 00:31:07.049 interests, special interests, whatever your preferred 00:31:07.049 --> 00:31:10.400 terminology is. whatever your interest is like 00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:13.400 we can sometimes I think you might grow out of 00:31:13.400 --> 00:31:16.980 some things but I think a lot of it with neurodivergent 00:31:16.980 --> 00:31:21.900 people it even manifests into like that real 00:31:21.900 --> 00:31:26.099 focused interest but also I think it grows like 00:31:26.099 --> 00:31:29.539 Disney was as a child I mean I grew up in a Disney 00:31:29.539 --> 00:31:32.519 household and that's just continued to be a lot 00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:35.900 a lot of like my interests is around Disney but 00:31:35.900 --> 00:31:39.779 also like I don't know what it is but I say like 00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:42.140 you don't grow out of it but then I don't feel 00:31:42.140 --> 00:31:43.960 like you obviously don't have to grow out of 00:31:43.960 --> 00:31:47.200 things you don't have to grow out of things that 00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:51.599 you that you like but then you do pick up new 00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:54.319 stuff along the way so like similar to Disney 00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:56.660 I then I liked Pokemon when I was little and 00:31:56.660 --> 00:31:59.519 then I kind of didn't because also I kind of 00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:01.140 I was like I went to an all -girls school and 00:32:01.140 --> 00:32:04.480 I was like oh it's not cool and and I was like 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:07.309 oh I've got to fit in And then literally like 00:32:07.309 --> 00:32:09.650 Pokemon Go came out however many years ago. Actually, 00:32:09.670 --> 00:32:12.869 before that, I was like, I got a DS and I was 00:32:12.869 --> 00:32:14.609 playing Pokemon on that. And I was like in my 00:32:14.609 --> 00:32:16.789 early 20s and I was like, I can just do it again. 00:32:16.970 --> 00:32:21.009 And now I'm like back in like happily just back 00:32:21.009 --> 00:32:24.990 into playing all the games on my Switch and still 00:32:24.990 --> 00:32:28.869 collecting cards and just. And I think there 00:32:28.869 --> 00:32:32.089 is a bit of a collector for me personally as 00:32:32.089 --> 00:32:34.029 a neurodivergent person, as a collector's aspect. 00:32:34.519 --> 00:32:38.980 around certain things so like I liked to I like 00:32:38.980 --> 00:32:41.059 to collect things and pins are one of my things 00:32:41.059 --> 00:32:44.140 and obviously Disney have like big Disney Disney 00:32:44.140 --> 00:32:47.140 trading pin thing is a big thing in Disney cards 00:32:47.140 --> 00:32:49.799 as well it's gotta catch them all yeah exactly 00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:54.079 and then it's and I think also for those sorts 00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:55.960 of things like the cards it's like quite like 00:32:55.960 --> 00:33:00.380 for me I'm like it's like a system and it's kind 00:33:00.380 --> 00:33:03.890 of Like, I've got this card, that card, that 00:33:03.890 --> 00:33:06.049 card. I need that one. And I know what I need 00:33:06.049 --> 00:33:08.289 to do. And it's predictable as well with things 00:33:08.289 --> 00:33:10.630 like that. And obviously, the Pokemon are all 00:33:10.630 --> 00:33:13.950 numbered. And there's a bit of a routine and 00:33:13.950 --> 00:33:17.329 a system. But obviously, that's just that. Yeah, 00:33:17.329 --> 00:33:19.390 no, I think predictable is exactly the word, 00:33:19.430 --> 00:33:22.450 isn't it? Like, think about it. The world is 00:33:22.450 --> 00:33:25.430 not predictable or controlled or safe for so 00:33:25.430 --> 00:33:30.130 many of our new Idovergent friends. But... They 00:33:30.130 --> 00:33:32.230 know these episodes. They know these characters. 00:33:32.369 --> 00:33:34.529 They're safe. They make them feel good. They 00:33:34.529 --> 00:33:36.349 feel comforting. They feel like home. They feel 00:33:36.349 --> 00:33:39.250 safe. They feel predictable. Why wouldn't they 00:33:39.250 --> 00:33:44.490 like that routine or that thing, that song, that 00:33:44.490 --> 00:33:49.470 food type, that whatever it is? It feels comfortable. 00:33:49.630 --> 00:33:51.529 That feels good. It gives you a dopamine hit 00:33:51.529 --> 00:33:54.230 because it feels good. It feels comforting. And 00:33:54.230 --> 00:33:58.210 I think having positive experiences around that. 00:33:58.829 --> 00:34:01.309 As well as the predictability. Like you say, 00:34:01.349 --> 00:34:04.130 it's comforting. It helps that attachment, doesn't 00:34:04.130 --> 00:34:07.849 it? Yeah, absolutely. And it maybe feels like 00:34:07.849 --> 00:34:13.269 friends in a way. Like it's known and it's, yeah, 00:34:13.329 --> 00:34:17.829 like a hug. And you also find, I think, with 00:34:17.829 --> 00:34:22.969 certain interests, you find your people as well. 00:34:23.190 --> 00:34:27.050 So I think, again, this is just... talking from 00:34:27.050 --> 00:34:29.369 like lived experiences personal experiences but 00:34:29.369 --> 00:34:33.690 you find other people who like the same interests 00:34:33.690 --> 00:34:37.349 as you and because socializing and it can be 00:34:37.349 --> 00:34:41.550 so tricky for our neurodivergent people it makes 00:34:41.550 --> 00:34:43.329 it a bit easier because then if you've got an 00:34:43.329 --> 00:34:46.449 interest with pokemon and someone else has got 00:34:46.449 --> 00:34:48.610 an interest in pokemon you've got a conversation 00:34:48.610 --> 00:34:51.469 you've got days of conversation there that you 00:34:51.469 --> 00:34:53.849 can really you know go to town and like connect 00:34:53.849 --> 00:34:57.429 with someone over a shared interest because the 00:34:57.429 --> 00:34:59.130 reality is neurodivergent people don't want to 00:34:59.130 --> 00:35:00.869 talk about the weather they don't want to talk 00:35:00.869 --> 00:35:04.030 about the small things they want to really get 00:35:04.030 --> 00:35:07.469 into like their interests and it's so true weddings 00:35:07.469 --> 00:35:13.460 are my nightmare short snap like short conversations 00:35:13.460 --> 00:35:15.400 well they're not short they're all day where 00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:17.059 you're sat with somebody that you don't know 00:35:17.059 --> 00:35:18.159 and you're never going to see again you don't 00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:20.139 actually care about and you have to make conversation 00:35:20.139 --> 00:35:21.840 with them all day and you have to act interested 00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:27.320 is my worst nightmare I hate it but if I found 00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:29.940 out like that they were a special education teacher 00:35:29.940 --> 00:35:33.239 all of a sudden I'm loving life I've got loads 00:35:33.239 --> 00:35:36.320 to talk to them about or any of my other interests 00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:39.980 all of a sudden it's easier so yeah if you're 00:35:39.980 --> 00:35:43.079 going to a comic con convention it's way less 00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:45.760 scary because you know that you won't bore these 00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:48.019 people and you can ask the questions that you 00:35:48.019 --> 00:35:51.260 actually want to know about and and know it will 00:35:51.260 --> 00:35:53.340 be received and you might even learn something 00:35:53.340 --> 00:35:55.320 about official interest which is really exciting 00:35:55.320 --> 00:35:58.340 I mean that's why I love these podcasts honestly 00:35:58.340 --> 00:36:00.480 because it's me chatting to people that have 00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:03.159 the same interests as me and it's so exciting 00:36:03.159 --> 00:36:06.440 I get to really absorb that and talk about it 00:36:06.440 --> 00:36:09.940 in really like deep detail and learn more and 00:36:09.940 --> 00:36:12.340 it's really exciting it really stretches that 00:36:12.340 --> 00:36:15.000 interest for me whereas if this I couldn't have 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:17.980 a podcast about another subject the general thing 00:36:17.980 --> 00:36:19.760 I couldn't I wouldn't know what to say I wouldn't 00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:23.599 enjoy it no so yeah yeah I think that's a community 00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:27.739 that's a really really good benefit isn't it 00:36:27.739 --> 00:36:30.059 of having those really clear obvious special 00:36:30.059 --> 00:36:32.260 interests and another reason why we want to encourage 00:36:32.260 --> 00:36:35.369 that You know, if there's a few children in your 00:36:35.369 --> 00:36:38.309 school, even if they're at different ages, that 00:36:38.309 --> 00:36:41.429 have similar interests, maybe we have a Lego 00:36:41.429 --> 00:36:43.969 club or maybe we have a Disney club or maybe 00:36:43.969 --> 00:36:47.269 we have a burrito train set club, whatever it 00:36:47.269 --> 00:36:49.489 is that your children are interested in. Maybe 00:36:49.489 --> 00:36:51.530 you have a cooking club, whatever it is, because 00:36:51.530 --> 00:36:55.260 then they can have shared interests. fundamental 00:36:55.260 --> 00:36:58.679 basis of friendship isn't it regardless of age 00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:00.519 I've certainly learned that getting older and 00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:02.760 older like my friends are all sorts of ages now 00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:04.920 I've got teenage friends and I've got retired 00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:07.119 friends and really really really good friends 00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:09.519 and it's because as an adult you're almost allowed 00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:11.960 to be friends with who you want to be friends 00:37:11.960 --> 00:37:15.199 with rather than at school the same year group 00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:18.840 with those same people isn't it absolutely also 00:37:18.840 --> 00:37:24.050 uh I think when you're in like say a club or 00:37:24.050 --> 00:37:27.230 like a group with a group of people who have 00:37:27.230 --> 00:37:29.929 those same interests you don't feel judged it's 00:37:29.929 --> 00:37:31.750 actually like what we said about before about 00:37:31.750 --> 00:37:35.630 feeling judged or you know you may you know you 00:37:35.630 --> 00:37:38.530 may feel you may feel that judgment you don't 00:37:38.530 --> 00:37:40.110 like you say like for example you said comic 00:37:40.110 --> 00:37:43.329 -con you can go there and people are not judging 00:37:43.329 --> 00:37:45.489 you at comic -con because you're celebrating 00:37:45.489 --> 00:37:48.789 say absolutely the things that you actually might 00:37:48.789 --> 00:37:52.769 be judged for walking to your supermarket or 00:37:52.769 --> 00:37:56.050 down to your local village are celebrated and 00:37:56.050 --> 00:37:59.889 that's huge that is huge because actually if 00:37:59.889 --> 00:38:02.769 everyone if everyone acted like that all the 00:38:02.769 --> 00:38:05.329 time and no one ever judged anyone then people 00:38:05.329 --> 00:38:07.829 would people's interests I think would come out 00:38:07.829 --> 00:38:11.070 and be more surface level like you're not going 00:38:11.070 --> 00:38:13.670 to be hiding it because I'd hate to think that 00:38:13.670 --> 00:38:18.150 people out there loving certain things but don't 00:38:18.150 --> 00:38:20.650 want to but kind of keep them keep that part 00:38:20.650 --> 00:38:23.570 of them hidden because of the fear of being judged 00:38:23.570 --> 00:38:26.349 but actually there's a lot of you know a lot 00:38:26.349 --> 00:38:28.969 of people out there that do do that because they 00:38:28.969 --> 00:38:31.010 think oh it's not age appropriate like you can 00:38:31.010 --> 00:38:33.510 even see I've got like loads of pop figures pop 00:38:33.510 --> 00:38:36.030 figures is something else that I collect and 00:38:36.030 --> 00:38:38.630 it's like oh pop figures are for children are 00:38:38.630 --> 00:38:42.050 they why you know why I think that's what to 00:38:42.050 --> 00:38:43.929 say right because that was going to be my final 00:38:43.929 --> 00:38:46.389 closing question was If people are listening 00:38:46.389 --> 00:38:49.130 to this and they've started the school term and 00:38:49.130 --> 00:38:51.250 you've got a couple of children in your class 00:38:51.250 --> 00:38:52.809 and they have these kind of interests that are 00:38:52.809 --> 00:38:55.789 deemed not age appropriate for their chronological 00:38:55.789 --> 00:38:58.550 age and you've got maybe part of your team or 00:38:58.550 --> 00:39:00.489 some of your senior leadership team are kind 00:39:00.489 --> 00:39:03.230 of really putting pressure on you to make a change 00:39:03.230 --> 00:39:06.170 with that. Or the school are and you're the parent, 00:39:06.269 --> 00:39:08.570 whatever. We feel feeling that pressure. What's 00:39:08.570 --> 00:39:11.610 a good tactic? What's a good strategy? What's 00:39:11.610 --> 00:39:15.710 something to say or do? in that situation to 00:39:15.710 --> 00:39:19.070 ensure that you are protecting that young person 00:39:19.070 --> 00:39:23.769 as their advocate that's really hard isn't it 00:39:23.769 --> 00:39:27.550 when I think like we can talk about this because 00:39:27.550 --> 00:39:30.670 we both have the same understanding and if we 00:39:30.670 --> 00:39:33.750 had children coming to our class where that would 00:39:33.750 --> 00:39:37.090 something would be deemed inappropriate or not 00:39:37.090 --> 00:39:40.530 age appropriate we would treat that the same 00:39:40.530 --> 00:39:43.349 and I think if my staff we're like oh well that's 00:39:43.349 --> 00:39:45.670 babyish we would reflect we'd have a conversation 00:39:45.670 --> 00:39:47.690 around that we do some training you know we do 00:39:47.690 --> 00:39:50.429 some training we'd have a chat and I think also 00:39:50.429 --> 00:39:54.130 I'd always try and bring it back to like I always 00:39:54.130 --> 00:39:56.289 try and bring things back to like people's own 00:39:56.289 --> 00:40:00.630 personal yeah even if you're neurotypical like 00:40:00.630 --> 00:40:02.230 I'm like there's gonna be something that you 00:40:02.230 --> 00:40:05.050 enjoy doing or that actually someone might go 00:40:05.050 --> 00:40:07.369 you know like you really like Taylor Swift or 00:40:07.369 --> 00:40:10.630 whatever like whatever there's something like 00:40:10.630 --> 00:40:12.769 what people call them guilty pleasures don't 00:40:12.769 --> 00:40:14.849 they which is so which is also such an interesting 00:40:14.849 --> 00:40:17.769 term to me like you could almost ask them okay 00:40:17.769 --> 00:40:19.769 well what's your guilty pleasure like I'm sure 00:40:19.769 --> 00:40:21.909 there's something maybe like a type of children's 00:40:21.909 --> 00:40:24.030 party food or maybe you like a type of music 00:40:24.030 --> 00:40:26.269 or maybe you like wearing certain things whatever 00:40:26.269 --> 00:40:28.329 it is like you like fancy earrings like brightly 00:40:28.329 --> 00:40:31.329 colored whatever yeah maybe spring it back to 00:40:31.329 --> 00:40:33.250 that and say well that makes you feel good doesn't 00:40:33.250 --> 00:40:35.789 it Like, do you think you could do more of that? 00:40:35.889 --> 00:40:38.530 Yeah, well, let's create a really safe environment. 00:40:38.969 --> 00:40:40.409 Because it's the other thing, isn't it? People 00:40:40.409 --> 00:40:42.170 say, well, that isn't the real world. And I'm 00:40:42.170 --> 00:40:43.849 like, well, nor is the classroom. This classroom 00:40:43.849 --> 00:40:46.730 is safe. And God, they're not safe anywhere else. 00:40:46.769 --> 00:40:48.130 They might as well be safe in this classroom. 00:40:48.369 --> 00:40:50.309 Let's not create a real world classroom. Let's 00:40:50.309 --> 00:40:52.690 create a really safe place where they can be 00:40:52.690 --> 00:40:55.250 their true selves and it's celebrated. Let's 00:40:55.250 --> 00:40:57.250 show the world what we actually want to see. 00:40:57.309 --> 00:40:59.010 Let's not make our classroom the world. Let's 00:40:59.010 --> 00:41:01.489 make the world our classroom. And let's start 00:41:01.489 --> 00:41:04.690 from there. could you use that special interest 00:41:04.690 --> 00:41:07.010 to connect with them? Maybe it's quite good. 00:41:07.110 --> 00:41:09.630 Like one of my ex -peoples was really interested 00:41:09.630 --> 00:41:12.269 in axolotls. I think it stemmed from Minecraft 00:41:12.269 --> 00:41:14.670 and then like was really interested in axolotls. 00:41:14.769 --> 00:41:16.989 And I learned so much about axolotls. They're 00:41:16.989 --> 00:41:19.670 the most awesome animals and we really connected 00:41:19.670 --> 00:41:22.010 on that and I learned so much and we had a really 00:41:22.010 --> 00:41:25.929 great friendship. and relationship on his interest 00:41:25.929 --> 00:41:28.510 in axolotls whereas actually if i was actually 00:41:28.510 --> 00:41:30.030 bored about them and didn't want to learn about 00:41:30.030 --> 00:41:31.630 them they might have really missed an opportunity 00:41:31.630 --> 00:41:33.530 to get to know him and connect with him which 00:41:33.530 --> 00:41:36.730 would feel really sad to me what a loss yeah 00:41:36.730 --> 00:41:40.269 absolutely agree and kind of just the one one 00:41:40.269 --> 00:41:41.989 thing i just thought like flipping it on its 00:41:41.989 --> 00:41:44.829 head like completely turning it around people 00:41:44.829 --> 00:41:47.750 used to say to me oh you've got really old lady 00:41:48.389 --> 00:41:51.269 activities or interests when I like focus on 00:41:51.269 --> 00:41:55.030 like knitting and crocheting obviously now it's 00:41:55.030 --> 00:41:57.650 definitely like something like I can write that 00:41:57.650 --> 00:42:01.250 down people do but like say back in the day it 00:42:01.250 --> 00:42:04.230 was a granny time it was a granny activity right 00:42:04.230 --> 00:42:06.829 like knitting and but like that's like almost 00:42:06.829 --> 00:42:08.329 like the other way around rather than saying 00:42:08.329 --> 00:42:10.070 oh that's too babyish it's like oh well that's 00:42:10.070 --> 00:42:12.130 what old people do they're like well if it makes 00:42:12.130 --> 00:42:15.630 you happy yeah and you enjoy doing it, then why 00:42:15.630 --> 00:42:17.130 would you not do it? And it's safe and not harming 00:42:17.130 --> 00:42:18.389 anyone. I think ultimately that's what it comes 00:42:18.389 --> 00:42:20.550 down to, doesn't it? So age appropriateness, 00:42:20.570 --> 00:42:23.610 this term age appropriateness, is only relevant 00:42:23.610 --> 00:42:27.570 if there is harm attached to it. Yeah, agreed. 00:42:27.809 --> 00:42:30.130 End of. Like, that's it. Maybe that can be our 00:42:30.130 --> 00:42:32.949 answer. Like, is it safe? Is it causing harm? 00:42:33.110 --> 00:42:36.550 If the answer is no, then we let it go. Maybe 00:42:36.550 --> 00:42:40.789 that needs to be on a T -shirt. Yes. Do it. Look 00:42:40.789 --> 00:42:45.139 alive. thank you so much for joining me again 00:42:45.139 --> 00:42:47.559 today you're just awesome and I could talk to 00:42:47.559 --> 00:42:50.619 you forever if people want to learn more about 00:42:50.619 --> 00:42:53.500 your amazing resources you've got so many amazing 00:42:53.500 --> 00:42:56.380 communication tools and resources on your website 00:42:56.380 --> 00:42:59.340 I always send people to you when they ask anything 00:42:59.340 --> 00:43:03.039 colorful semantics anything communication I'm 00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:05.940 like Sammy's gonna have it where can they find 00:43:05.940 --> 00:43:10.929 you um so I am on Instagram at Spectrum Patronum 00:43:10.929 --> 00:43:14.869 and I also have a website which is www .spectrumpatronum 00:43:14.869 --> 00:43:18.150 .com I recently also got TikTok which is a bit 00:43:18.150 --> 00:43:20.809 scary I'm still trying to find my feet there 00:43:20.809 --> 00:43:23.869 but um and I also have a page on Facebook as 00:43:23.869 --> 00:43:26.309 well but no thank you so much for having me I 00:43:26.309 --> 00:43:28.349 like you and I are just so on the same level 00:43:28.349 --> 00:43:30.590 and we could just chat for hours so I really 00:43:30.590 --> 00:43:32.530 appreciate you um having me on again for the 00:43:32.530 --> 00:43:36.070 third time oh I always learn so much coming from 00:43:36.070 --> 00:43:38.610 our chats it's yeah it kind of brings up questions 00:43:38.610 --> 00:43:40.849 for me I think what I love about our conversations 00:43:40.849 --> 00:43:43.929 is they're so open -minded yes we come with our 00:43:43.929 --> 00:43:46.530 own ideas but we're also so open to them being 00:43:46.530 --> 00:43:48.750 questions and shifted and I think that's a really 00:43:48.750 --> 00:43:51.809 great healthy place to start and yeah I love 00:43:51.809 --> 00:43:53.829 that yeah we always reflect I always find like 00:43:53.829 --> 00:43:56.809 I reflect during our chats which is what we should 00:43:56.809 --> 00:43:58.929 always be doing isn't it always be reflective 00:43:58.929 --> 00:44:02.150 practitioners so yeah thank you so good luck 00:44:02.150 --> 00:44:04.170 if you're listening And you're going to make 00:44:04.170 --> 00:44:06.730 a change in your classroom and reach out to either 00:44:06.730 --> 00:44:08.949 of us, DM either of us, if you need an extra 00:44:08.949 --> 00:44:12.409 guided hand with anything. Thanks, Sammy. Thank 00:44:12.409 --> 00:44:14.989 you so much. Bye. Bye.