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today. Now to the episode. Hello everybody and
welcome to the Sensory Classroom podcast. My
name is Jordan and today I am joined by Sammy
for the third time, I think, from Spectrum Patronum
on Instagram, on her business. And she is a special
education teacher. and we align on so many different
topics and we're kind of having a recent discussion
um in the dms recently about person appropriateness
and i'd love to talk more with her about that
today hi sammy hi jordan thank you so much for
having me back because i absolutely love it and
like you said you and i are just on the same
wavelength with everything so and when you talked
about this on your stories i was like We need
to talk about this for sure. And I like how you
said person appropriate as well because that's
something that I was going to bring up. It's
not always necessarily child appropriate, adult
appropriate. It is person appropriate, isn't
it? Yes, absolutely. Do you want to explain first,
if people haven't seen previous episodes or know
anything about you, do you want to explain a
little bit about who you are and what you do
before we get into this? Yeah. So I am Sammy.
I am a special needs teacher of children with
complex needs, especially complex communication
needs. And I also... I own a business similar
to Jordan, just massive advocate of all things
AAC and all things communication. Yeah, so that's
what I do. I've been working with children with
special needs since I was 17 and I'm now 34 and
my maths is really bad. And yeah, but I've been
teaching for, this will be my eighth year teaching.
I took a long way to get to my teaching. career
because I did my degree through the Open University
whilst I was working in special needs school
getting all that experience and I'm also neurodivergent
myself which I feel really helps me understand
and support the children so yeah. Yeah absolutely
it's definitely an asset especially talking about
this topic of aid or person appropriateness it
also feels personal and I think that's definitely
going to come up today I'm sure about that. person
what that subject means for us as neurodivergent
people as well as what it means for the people
in our classrooms absolutely and the people that
we are allies for and that we advocate for So
let's talk about this term age appropriateness.
When are we seeing it being used? When are we
seeing it being thrown around, this word age
appropriateness? One time springs to mind, it
was a good few years ago, and I was working with
teenagers at the time, PMLD teenagers. And this
one pupil was really into the Teletubbies. It
really motivated them and it really excited them.
It helped. The toys helped him transition and
God, he should have had a Taytubby timetable
and a Taytubby curriculum. Like it was just really
motivating to him and really exciting and obviously
gave him a dopamine hit and just really felt
good. And what we should have been doing was
connecting with him over that, using that as
a tool to build those relationships, that trust,
that understanding and flavoured the curriculum
around that. That's what we should have been
doing. But from senior leadership team, all we
were getting was it's inappropriate. He's 14.
These are Tate hubbies. It looks babyish. He'll
be ridiculed. It's not the real world. It's not
what he should be into. It's babyish. We should
help him broaden his horizons and help him broaden
his interests. It's not appropriate. That's what
we were being fed. and it's happened a few times
also things being celebrated and thinking of
another child that was really into the cinema
like just as obsessively at this first boy with
and that was into the teletubbies really into
the cinema would bring cinema magazines every
week we talk about it's all he'd talk about but
yeah that was celebrated because that seemingly
even though he's another 14 year old boy and
with just as much of this obsession and special
interest it's not just much a distraction honestly
from what we yeah But that was seen as age appropriate.
So therefore that was, yeah, celebrated and encouraged.
And that's kind of where I'm coming from is this
kind of, these two things and what was really
happening there. Was it age appropriate? What
does that turn even mean? And how can we navigate
that? So do you have similar ideas of like, when
I say that term, that those stories are called
that? Absolutely, absolutely. for me like age
appropriate I don't know if this is the way my
brain thinks has my my brain has always gone
age appropriate literal this is probably a literal
thinking is okay you've got to be 18 to be able
to be like to be exposed to like it's the harmful
stuff that I always think of you know when you
put um like age limits on things to protect children
that's where I feel like the age appropriateness
is appropriate do you know what I mean like so
I'm ensuring they're not exposed to like certain
like violence and drugs and alcohol etc etc that
is to protect children but I just don't see how
it can be used when it's against someone's interest
that is it's appropriate it wasn't like he he
was highly interested in serial killers or something
do you know like even though like you know and
it's like you say we should be like sort of leaning
into their interest -based you know and and I
know that um we've spoken about this previously
but like we are very much person -based approaches
individual on an individual basis in our classrooms
and we always go interest -based We always go
interest -based. And I don't think it's fair,
like you just said, that example that one child,
because it seemed more appropriate to society.
Yeah. That's what it is, isn't it? It comes down
to it was more appropriate to society for that
child to be interested or that young person to
be interested in the cinema. But when it comes
to Teletubbies, it's not. But it's their interest.
So I don't see why that's a problem because it's
not harming anybody. Yeah, you've said some really
great points there. One thing I didn't even consider
was when the term age appropriate is actually
relevant, which is so true. It's about safety.
And I suppose even then age appropriate doesn't
work either because lots of my learners that
have been 18, 19 still wouldn't be safe for them
to watch an 18 or 19 rated movie. It would be
incredibly scary for them, really confusing.
And I would want to protect them from that because
of where they are at cognitively. Absolutely.
Even the term age appropriate does... seems ableist
in that too it's assuming that everybody at age
18 is ready for that when actually even without
neuro complexities and neurodiversity some 18
and 19 year olds still find that really scary
or not they're not ready for that I for one don't
watch scary movies I can't even watch scary adverts
of scary movies I'm watching Wednesday at the
moment and that's my limit like I love Wednesday
but that is honestly my limit um change of things
is just over the limit and I bear it because
it's so good but um that really is my limit like
I can't watch any horror or scary because because
it isn't appropriate for me and my tolerance
levels and I'm 36 yeah so like this term age
appropriate just seems so blanket statement like
when you're 18 it is appropriate too just doesn't
work for most people I can imagine no I completely
agree it is it's concerning really like when
you still when we and you know I'm fully aware
that there are still a lot of people out there
who like 14 I'm in a primary school so working
with children up to the age of 11 and I'm like
you know and I'm sure there'll be people thinking
oh you're too old for that at the age of nine
you know all you're too you know too young is
a bit different isn't it with like all the things
that we've just spoken about but you're you know
that all that's babyish you said that term and
I was like oh that's such it's almost like a
triggering term like when you can say it's babyish
to like something and another thing is sort of
like I know that you'll also probably be very
aware and probably agree with me on this is like
baby bottles no it's just a bottle Or like if
they've got a dummy and, oh, that's babyish,
you don't need that. Yeah, and pads. We don't
call pads babyish, so nappies or pads. We don't
call them babyish because it's needed and necessary.
We should be seeing their form of drinking, their
form of eating, the same as that, shouldn't we?
We should see it as just a necessary thing that
they need. Absolutely. We would never actually
say, oh, this pad's a bit babyish, would you
ever? No, we wouldn't. absolutely especially
when it comes to those basic needs like pads
and I don't know if you're there's a bottle and
yeah the dummy too sometimes yeah absolutely
and it's about at the end of the day it's about
supporting them to meet their needs isn't it
and actually if they're drinking from a bottle
of a bottle that may be that's fine that's okay
And I just it makes me sad that, you know, there's
some sometimes there may be people that would
be more concerned about moving them onto a cup
rather than them actually drinking. At the end
of the day, I just think as long as you're as
long as they're drinking, because that can be,
you know, for some children like with ARFID or
who really struggle, actually, let's not let's
not introduce. Let's not introduce anything else.
As long as they are drinking, that's what's important.
And that doesn't mean that you can't have other
options available or be modelling other options.
I don't want people to listen to this and be
like, oh, like you're not even trying to move
them on. No, that's not what we're saying. Like
have all the options available, model all the
options, fill up the juice in all the options
and then let them choose. absolutely without
any demand or pressure even if they have offered
i think that's a really great example without
like don't get them to do it um don't have that
expectation but just have it available it doesn't
hurt or harm and if it seems distressing even
to look at it then that's fine like move it away
but but at least you know that you know what
this is then their choice yeah it's the options
isn't it it's um there's no harm in trying other
options however if it causes distress we're not
you know and that's the thing I think that we're
very similar on we we are never we never force
conformity for the sake of society for example
but we you know we have those options and we
make sure that we model when we we do this all
the time in class we have our own bottles we'll
bring in like a we'll bring in just like a like
a metal bottle then we might have carp and other
things and you know we're modeling as well um
that's another thing isn't it like how can we
expect the same with communication how can we
expect um the children to try these new things
if we're not modeling it to them as well do you
think that this comes from how their carer whether
that be a teacher teacher assistant parent whatever
feels judged from others because I've certainly
felt like that on paper and I really try and
practice to do exactly what you just said go
person approach person first choices and be led
by them but I've also I would be lying if I didn't
say that I've felt oh like they're judging me
like Do you know, like I felt that when we've
been gone on trips to the zoo and I don't know,
one of my learners is pushed in or has a dummy
in or whatever, whatever it is. I've definitely
been like, oh, like, yeah. And I don't want to
make an excuse, but you almost want to be like,
oh, they're just autistic or they're just, you
know, like it's like, and it's like, oh, I've
definitely felt that. And I'm the teacher. So
I can only imagine what it's like for parents
day in, day out to have that constant judgment
and shame put on them. for doing exactly the
right thing of putting their child's needs first.
Absolutely. Or that there's no judgment if, like,
that's your motivation to, like, try and make
a change. Because I get it. I have felt that.
Yeah. I'm not immune to that. I've definitely
felt judged by a child's behavior. I was a foster
carer for a few years, but we had this one boy
for about 11 months who had a disability, a cognitive
disability. And a lot of trauma as well. And
would have these kind of tantrum -like episodes
out in public. And I had to just really sit with
myself and let everything else that was on the
periphery go. All the looks, all the little comments,
all the judgment. And just know that I was doing
the right thing by, you know. Not telling you
off, for example, letting it ride out, you know,
all those kind of things. Trusting your instincts.
Doing the calm to the chaos and all of those
things. Whereas actually what I think they wanted
me to be was like, well, he was bigger than me,
but like pick him up and like march him off or
whatever. And that absolutely wasn't what I could
or would want to do. But I felt in some capacity
of like that judgment and knowing I was doing
the right thing, but that judgment must get exhausting
as well. Yeah. And this, this like stems down
to just acceptance, isn't it? And awareness.
And like every year in April, you know, you always
see these autism acceptance, autism awareness,
and we need both. But it's still, I think, built
into people to have, it is still built in that.
there's an expectation in society and if something's
on or if someone's not handling or managing something
in the way that you might manage it I think that's
another thing as well like you say it's there's
you're probably like feeling that you're feeling
the judgment when you're out but also those people
that are judging I think I don't know like have
they experienced have they experienced it how
would they handle it and actually that the way
they handle it at the end of the day it comes
down to the child doesn't it or that or that
person and what's best for them yet we are still
very much worried about other people and what
other people think and I do think it is valid
really it's you know what and what things look
like as well so you know a child or young person
may be self -harming or doing some behaviors
and other people might think why are you not
stepping in but actually there's a behavior plan
in place or there's you know you know this child
or young person so well you know what needs to
happen or what you that you need to wait and
there's a reason why you are or you are not stepping
in But again, it's just the judgment from other
people. And sometimes the judgment is real and
sometimes it's in our own heads too. Like I was
sitting there feeling judged, even if the other
people around me weren't even noticing or were
walking past or actually thinking, God, she's
doing well or whatever. Yeah. I don't know what
they were thinking. It's internal that I was
feeling shame and judged. And I don't think I've
ever turned around and thought, someone walked
past and thought I was doing a great job when
have we ever been positive about that actually
that's that's very yeah and I've never walked
past someone of of a clearly distressed you know
dysregulation and thought and judged the carer
for it ever yeah I've always thought oh my god
that looks challenging could I be helpful oh
no probably not and then walked on my thoughts
yeah sometimes I give them like a knowing smile
as like a comrade um in some ways but other times
sometimes it's best to just move on and just
trust that they know them and they've they've
got it in hand I'm certainly not judging no and
we've got that understanding and the experience
sometimes I've walked past like say a parent
in the shop and And like, they might have sunflower
lanyard or something and child may be having
a tricky time. And I want to almost go up to
the parent and be like, or whoever they are,
Kara, can I help you in any way? And I just think,
this is not my place. I don't know this child.
I don't have a relationship with this child.
Like, you know, if the parent looks extremely
distressed and like they need some moral support,
then yes, but otherwise. You know, it's just
no judgment from us, obviously. No, no, being
a parent in that situation, because I only was
for 11 months, but I don't know if I can speak
a little bit. Yeah. I wouldn't have felt bad
if someone did say, like, Judy felt, because
the worst I could say is no. Yeah. Or even a
gestured no, I've got it. but actually in some
instance it was really helpful when people did
step in for that change of face even if it was
a stranger so like I had shopkeepers come out
and offer my child a drink and just the fact
that it was a change of face a man and a stranger
meant that it kind of did snap him out of it
and it kind of really did calm him down I couldn't
have done that because I was the like I was the
one that they were angry at you know actually
someone else going in was really helpful genuinely
or sometimes you just like could you just put
this toy back on the shelf or could you just
grab a bag for me or actually I've left my handbag
two miles down that way could you grab it for
me yeah like for my husband's in the car could
you could you try and get here like or whatever
it is like actually asking that even though you
can't help with the child or the young person
directly is still helpful and ultimately even
if all it does is show them like you're not alone
in this like we are not against you we're not
judging you like is there anything we can do
and yeah actually I've just had like that realization
from this conversation There's us saying how
when we're in that situation, you're feeling
judged. Actually, if you just went up to that
person and was like, is there anything I can
do to help you? Not your child, but can I help
you? If someone came up to say that to me, then
I probably wouldn't feel judged. I'd feel like,
oh, okay. You might feel embarrassed. But then
if that's the worst that can come of that, then
I feel like that's still okay, isn't it? than
like nobody wants to like some people don't like
charity or help do they even if they need it
and that's fine you know but at least you've
given them an opportunity to say yes or no and
the more people are doing that the easier it
might be for them to accept some help because
it's really hard when you're used to doing it
on your own as a foster carer this boy was out
of school yeah excluded for those 11 months i
was we didn't see a social worker for three months
so i was social worker teacher parent all of
the things and i only did that for 11 months
like these parents that we're talking about have
been doing it for 9 10 11 12 13 14 years and
they are that sole person that teacher it's not
easy for them to accept help from other people
because they've had to do it on their own for
so long so you might not get it yes straight
away but that's not a reason to stop asking no
i think it's even more the reason to like keep
asking honestly yeah and I just think well the
worst that can come of it is like they feel a
little bit embarrassed they say no and then you
walk on with your day like yeah they might reflect
on that later yeah and feel a little bit like
comforted maybe I don't know I don't know I'd
love to hear from parents actually on this yeah
it would that would yeah it would be interesting
to hear from parents and actually and that that
also comes down to what you as a parent prefer
would you prefer to someone come along and there's
and that's also probably a situation based but
some situations probably like oh no I'm fine
other situations yes I actually could do could
you go and do this that and the other for me
yeah I know that's such a good point and I suppose
like whenever I think I would always be worried
I think this is like my brain now. I'd always
be worried that they think, oh, what, so you
think you can do a better job? Yeah. No one's
ever said that to me. You definitely need to
be careful about how it comes across. Yeah. Like
you say, asking if they need help, not the child.
You're not coming in as a hero with a cape. You're
just saying like, is there anything I can do
to help you in this situation? And I think that's
like. that's just my brain then probably like
going at each other like shall we ask she asks
them if they need support oh no you don't want
to come across like you know what you're doing
because you don't know this child and it's like
a little bit of an internal like fight with itself
but I definitely you know I definitely think
like you say like I think giving the option and
then the parent can make that decision is yeah
what's better and even better if you're working
at the establishment this is happening i think
it's one thing that a customer would like a fellow
customer us as a fellow customer would go up
and we can support but if you're somebody in
uniform that's like working at that establishment
i just feel like it's your duty to ask if they
need any assistance even if you feel like you
can't help with the child directly because i
don't think the parent or carer will ever ask
you to interact with the child directly i just
don't think that's going to happen no it might
like actually do you know what like can you just
put some cones around us please or can you just
close off the aisle or can you just dim the lights
or can you stop the music please or whatever
it is like you might have control over something
that could really really help this situation
that's yeah that is very true so yeah if if you're
listening to this and don't have any experience
in autism I don't know why you're here but if
you do if you're one of these people but you
and you work in an establishment that this could
happen in then then there are still things that
you could do to help even if even if you're not
sure about you know the disability itself and
that also goes for invisible disabilities and
all ages and this comes back to age appropriateness
again you might see a seemingly like 40 year
old man with no seemingly disabilities on the
outset acting in a certain way and they are also
judged as a drug user or an alcoholic or unhinged
or all those kind of terms that we hear but it
really might be in a visible disability and they
need to be treated in the same way are you okay
can i help you you know don't put yourself maybe
in a in harm's way but you could certainly ask
somebody that works at the establishment or work
somewhere close by to check in on them and check
that they are okay and that and that everything's
okay for them i would say as well absolutely
i totally agree i'm bringing it back to that
age appropriateness conversation I think you
know it is important that when you see people
walking around you know you're not judging what
they what they're well I'd hope you know there's
a lot more awareness now but you're not judging
what they're wearing or if they're carrying like
a like a cuddly toy or something even if they
are 40 years old I think you know it's so I think
something that I think isn't it like this again
this is a kind of a bit different but I think
there's some things that that are accepted in
society and one of those things and if you know
me you know I'm a big fan is Disney like Disney
adults is a big thing and it's kind of like oh
they just love they love Disney oh they love
Disney but when it's a child liking Teletubbies
but like Disney like was I mean it is family
orientated but a lot of it is for children and
a lot of people still believe it's for children
yet you've got loads of adults who walk around
with Disney like different well if you saw me
in the street so when I wasn't working I'd usually
be wearing a Disney t -shirt or something and
but that's something that's a bit more accepted.
Yeah so what makes that okay in comparison is
it just perception is it is it that people see
more of that so it becomes more socially acceptable?
What is it? I do. I think I think you're right
there. I think it's everywhere. It's it's and
you get mainstream shops and supermarkets selling
Disney T -shirts, Disney pajamas for adults.
So it it's like mainstream is like almost like
saying it's OK. It's almost like here you go.
We're selling this and because we're selling
this and people are buying it, it's accepted.
Whereas on some of the Lego sets, it says like
16 plus on it. Therefore, they're saying that
this is okay for young adults and adults. It's
also, and that's another thing, isn't it? Lego,
like that's seemingly ageless. But, and yet,
actually, why is that in comparison to some other
things? Other toys. as well because like you're
so right with lego and obviously again i'm a
big lego fan got lots of the big sets like my
dad's a big lego fan he's got the titanic like
people like oh my gosh that's so cool or they
go over and they see like all these big star
wars ships oh that's amazing that's so cool if
you saw a 50 60 year old playing with play -doh
you're gonna probably be like hmm yeah but then
yet after seeing an air -dried clay isn't appropriate
yeah it's like we make these weird little social
rules for ourselves that we can fit into and
be accepted and I feel like that's a very human
trait to kind of to slot our likes and interests
into these like socially accepted things yeah
and it doesn't just go with interests and hobbies
it goes on to food preferences like I would feel
really judged if I ordered from the kids menu
often that's something that I want to do and
if I didn't feel judged by others I would just
order two lots of whatever's on the kids menu
because that's ultimately what I want I don't
want any of your like salads or like mixed up
posh food like I just want fish fingers and chips
or whatever it is I just have two of them because
I don't want child portions I just want child
choices um but it goes into all of these things
doesn't it so it's not just hobbies it's like
in it's like interwoven into like when do we
learn this I feel like it maybe it's younger
and younger I'm watching the mainstream kids
that are attached to my school and um they seem
aware of it really young now like age six they'll
be saying that's babyish I'm not doing I'm even
younger than that to be fair I've heard people
in earlier years saying like that's babyish I
don't do that and it's like wow like you are
children you are young children and you are using
that term baby at all that's girly that's the
other thing isn't it what is learn isn't it what
kind of like learn about these social norms of
what's acceptable what's not acceptable and it
is learned so young now that it's kind of like
embedded in our psyche and i just don't know
how to unlearn that but it's really important
for neurodivergent friends that we really try
to because god yeah we talk about acceptance
and that is the start of it is just accepting
them for who they are like that is it it's basics
and it starts with this stuff it starts with
accepting their likes and dislikes and interests
that that is all okay absolutely and even if
you don't think that something is appropriate
for them I think reflecting on yourself and what
you think is appropriate and is it it probably
is appropriate for them but we've just like you
said been brought up in a world and in a society
that says it isn't but also that kind of dictates
what isn't what toys are appropriate for adults
like lego for example like we just said and what
cartoons essentially are appropriate for all
you know pokemon's another one you have a lot
of adults who love pokemon and then that's also
i found like quite a common interest in a lot
of autistic children and autistic adults but
also neurotypical people as well absolutely what's
happening there so why do autistic people hang
on to those early childhood likes and interests
what's your feeling on that because it seems
really common doesn't it like they like thomas
the tank engine when they're younger they like
it still at 30 they liked in the night garden
at, you know, three years old, they still like
it when they're 30. What is that? I'm not sure.
However, I know that I still have a lot of interests
from when I was a child that I have held on to.
And I think it might just stem down to your focused
interests, special interests, whatever your preferred
terminology is. whatever your interest is like
we can sometimes I think you might grow out of
some things but I think a lot of it with neurodivergent
people it even manifests into like that real
focused interest but also I think it grows like
Disney was as a child I mean I grew up in a Disney
household and that's just continued to be a lot
a lot of like my interests is around Disney but
also like I don't know what it is but I say like
you don't grow out of it but then I don't feel
like you obviously don't have to grow out of
things you don't have to grow out of things that
you that you like but then you do pick up new
stuff along the way so like similar to Disney
I then I liked Pokemon when I was little and
then I kind of didn't because also I kind of
I was like I went to an all -girls school and
I was like oh it's not cool and and I was like
oh I've got to fit in And then literally like
Pokemon Go came out however many years ago. Actually,
before that, I was like, I got a DS and I was
playing Pokemon on that. And I was like in my
early 20s and I was like, I can just do it again.
And now I'm like back in like happily just back
into playing all the games on my Switch and still
collecting cards and just. And I think there
is a bit of a collector for me personally as
a neurodivergent person, as a collector's aspect.
around certain things so like I liked to I like
to collect things and pins are one of my things
and obviously Disney have like big Disney Disney
trading pin thing is a big thing in Disney cards
as well it's gotta catch them all yeah exactly
and then it's and I think also for those sorts
of things like the cards it's like quite like
for me I'm like it's like a system and it's kind
of Like, I've got this card, that card, that
card. I need that one. And I know what I need
to do. And it's predictable as well with things
like that. And obviously, the Pokemon are all
numbered. And there's a bit of a routine and
a system. But obviously, that's just that. Yeah,
no, I think predictable is exactly the word,
isn't it? Like, think about it. The world is
not predictable or controlled or safe for so
many of our new Idovergent friends. But... They
know these episodes. They know these characters.
They're safe. They make them feel good. They
feel comforting. They feel like home. They feel
safe. They feel predictable. Why wouldn't they
like that routine or that thing, that song, that
food type, that whatever it is? It feels comfortable.
That feels good. It gives you a dopamine hit
because it feels good. It feels comforting. And
I think having positive experiences around that.
As well as the predictability. Like you say,
it's comforting. It helps that attachment, doesn't
it? Yeah, absolutely. And it maybe feels like
friends in a way. Like it's known and it's, yeah,
like a hug. And you also find, I think, with
certain interests, you find your people as well.
So I think, again, this is just... talking from
like lived experiences personal experiences but
you find other people who like the same interests
as you and because socializing and it can be
so tricky for our neurodivergent people it makes
it a bit easier because then if you've got an
interest with pokemon and someone else has got
an interest in pokemon you've got a conversation
you've got days of conversation there that you
can really you know go to town and like connect
with someone over a shared interest because the
reality is neurodivergent people don't want to
talk about the weather they don't want to talk
about the small things they want to really get
into like their interests and it's so true weddings
are my nightmare short snap like short conversations
well they're not short they're all day where
you're sat with somebody that you don't know
and you're never going to see again you don't
actually care about and you have to make conversation
with them all day and you have to act interested
is my worst nightmare I hate it but if I found
out like that they were a special education teacher
all of a sudden I'm loving life I've got loads
to talk to them about or any of my other interests
all of a sudden it's easier so yeah if you're
going to a comic con convention it's way less
scary because you know that you won't bore these
people and you can ask the questions that you
actually want to know about and and know it will
be received and you might even learn something
about official interest which is really exciting
I mean that's why I love these podcasts honestly
because it's me chatting to people that have
the same interests as me and it's so exciting
I get to really absorb that and talk about it
in really like deep detail and learn more and
it's really exciting it really stretches that
interest for me whereas if this I couldn't have
a podcast about another subject the general thing
I couldn't I wouldn't know what to say I wouldn't
enjoy it no so yeah yeah I think that's a community
that's a really really good benefit isn't it
of having those really clear obvious special
interests and another reason why we want to encourage
that You know, if there's a few children in your
school, even if they're at different ages, that
have similar interests, maybe we have a Lego
club or maybe we have a Disney club or maybe
we have a burrito train set club, whatever it
is that your children are interested in. Maybe
you have a cooking club, whatever it is, because
then they can have shared interests. fundamental
basis of friendship isn't it regardless of age
I've certainly learned that getting older and
older like my friends are all sorts of ages now
I've got teenage friends and I've got retired
friends and really really really good friends
and it's because as an adult you're almost allowed
to be friends with who you want to be friends
with rather than at school the same year group
with those same people isn't it absolutely also
uh I think when you're in like say a club or
like a group with a group of people who have
those same interests you don't feel judged it's
actually like what we said about before about
feeling judged or you know you may you know you
may feel you may feel that judgment you don't
like you say like for example you said comic
-con you can go there and people are not judging
you at comic -con because you're celebrating
say absolutely the things that you actually might
be judged for walking to your supermarket or
down to your local village are celebrated and
that's huge that is huge because actually if
everyone if everyone acted like that all the
time and no one ever judged anyone then people
would people's interests I think would come out
and be more surface level like you're not going
to be hiding it because I'd hate to think that
people out there loving certain things but don't
want to but kind of keep them keep that part
of them hidden because of the fear of being judged
but actually there's a lot of you know a lot
of people out there that do do that because they
think oh it's not age appropriate like you can
even see I've got like loads of pop figures pop
figures is something else that I collect and
it's like oh pop figures are for children are
they why you know why I think that's what to
say right because that was going to be my final
closing question was If people are listening
to this and they've started the school term and
you've got a couple of children in your class
and they have these kind of interests that are
deemed not age appropriate for their chronological
age and you've got maybe part of your team or
some of your senior leadership team are kind
of really putting pressure on you to make a change
with that. Or the school are and you're the parent,
whatever. We feel feeling that pressure. What's
a good tactic? What's a good strategy? What's
something to say or do? in that situation to
ensure that you are protecting that young person
as their advocate that's really hard isn't it
when I think like we can talk about this because
we both have the same understanding and if we
had children coming to our class where that would
something would be deemed inappropriate or not
age appropriate we would treat that the same
and I think if my staff we're like oh well that's
babyish we would reflect we'd have a conversation
around that we do some training you know we do
some training we'd have a chat and I think also
I'd always try and bring it back to like I always
try and bring things back to like people's own
personal yeah even if you're neurotypical like
I'm like there's gonna be something that you
enjoy doing or that actually someone might go
you know like you really like Taylor Swift or
whatever like whatever there's something like
what people call them guilty pleasures don't
they which is so which is also such an interesting
term to me like you could almost ask them okay
well what's your guilty pleasure like I'm sure
there's something maybe like a type of children's
party food or maybe you like a type of music
or maybe you like wearing certain things whatever
it is like you like fancy earrings like brightly
colored whatever yeah maybe spring it back to
that and say well that makes you feel good doesn't
it Like, do you think you could do more of that?
Yeah, well, let's create a really safe environment.
Because it's the other thing, isn't it? People
say, well, that isn't the real world. And I'm
like, well, nor is the classroom. This classroom
is safe. And God, they're not safe anywhere else.
They might as well be safe in this classroom.
Let's not create a real world classroom. Let's
create a really safe place where they can be
their true selves and it's celebrated. Let's
show the world what we actually want to see.
Let's not make our classroom the world. Let's
make the world our classroom. And let's start
from there. could you use that special interest
to connect with them? Maybe it's quite good.
Like one of my ex -peoples was really interested
in axolotls. I think it stemmed from Minecraft
and then like was really interested in axolotls.
And I learned so much about axolotls. They're
the most awesome animals and we really connected
on that and I learned so much and we had a really
great friendship. and relationship on his interest
in axolotls whereas actually if i was actually
bored about them and didn't want to learn about
them they might have really missed an opportunity
to get to know him and connect with him which
would feel really sad to me what a loss yeah
absolutely agree and kind of just the one one
thing i just thought like flipping it on its
head like completely turning it around people
used to say to me oh you've got really old lady
activities or interests when I like focus on
like knitting and crocheting obviously now it's
definitely like something like I can write that
down people do but like say back in the day it
was a granny time it was a granny activity right
like knitting and but like that's like almost
like the other way around rather than saying
oh that's too babyish it's like oh well that's
what old people do they're like well if it makes
you happy yeah and you enjoy doing it, then why
would you not do it? And it's safe and not harming
anyone. I think ultimately that's what it comes
down to, doesn't it? So age appropriateness,
this term age appropriateness, is only relevant
if there is harm attached to it. Yeah, agreed.
End of. Like, that's it. Maybe that can be our
answer. Like, is it safe? Is it causing harm?
If the answer is no, then we let it go. Maybe
that needs to be on a T -shirt. Yes. Do it. Look
alive. thank you so much for joining me again
today you're just awesome and I could talk to
you forever if people want to learn more about
your amazing resources you've got so many amazing
communication tools and resources on your website
I always send people to you when they ask anything
colorful semantics anything communication I'm
like Sammy's gonna have it where can they find
you um so I am on Instagram at Spectrum Patronum
and I also have a website which is www .spectrumpatronum
.com I recently also got TikTok which is a bit
scary I'm still trying to find my feet there
but um and I also have a page on Facebook as
well but no thank you so much for having me I
like you and I are just so on the same level
and we could just chat for hours so I really
appreciate you um having me on again for the
third time oh I always learn so much coming from
our chats it's yeah it kind of brings up questions
for me I think what I love about our conversations
is they're so open -minded yes we come with our
own ideas but we're also so open to them being
questions and shifted and I think that's a really
great healthy place to start and yeah I love
that yeah we always reflect I always find like
I reflect during our chats which is what we should
always be doing isn't it always be reflective
practitioners so yeah thank you so good luck
if you're listening And you're going to make
a change in your classroom and reach out to either
of us, DM either of us, if you need an extra
guided hand with anything. Thanks, Sammy. Thank
you so much. Bye. Bye.