WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.680 Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education 00:00:02.680 --> 00:00:06.160 teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:09.119 communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson 00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:11.660 ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged 00:00:11.660 --> 00:00:15.300 4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in 00:00:15.300 --> 00:00:17.640 the field answering your questions and sharing 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:19.559 our knowledge and experience working alongside 00:00:19.559 --> 00:00:22.539 our beautiful young people. Let's get started. 00:00:28.359 --> 00:00:30.920 First of all, a message about our sponsor. Today's 00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:33.640 sponsor is Octopus Energy. 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Hello everybody and 00:01:07.659 --> 00:01:10.319 welcome to the Sensory Classroom podcast. My 00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:13.379 name is Jordan and today I'm joined by Dr. Naomi 00:01:13.379 --> 00:01:17.099 Fisher who is a clinical psychologist, EDMR trainer 00:01:17.099 --> 00:01:19.939 and author of several books. She specializes 00:01:19.939 --> 00:01:23.280 in autism, trauma and alternative education and 00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:25.659 I'm so excited to speak to her about screen time 00:01:25.659 --> 00:01:28.549 today. Hello Naomi. Hi Jordan and thanks for 00:01:28.549 --> 00:01:30.750 inviting me and I'm just going to correct you 00:01:30.750 --> 00:01:33.969 it's EMDR not EDMR and everybody makes that mistake 00:01:33.969 --> 00:01:37.829 all the time. So what is it? EMDR. EMDR. Oh my 00:01:37.829 --> 00:01:39.310 god I've even got that written I've even said 00:01:39.310 --> 00:01:41.349 it wrong. It's really easy to do and I don't 00:01:41.349 --> 00:01:42.450 know why. What does it stand for? So it stands 00:01:42.450 --> 00:01:45.909 for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing 00:01:45.909 --> 00:01:48.390 and it's a type of psychological therapy. It's 00:01:48.390 --> 00:01:52.920 a trauma therapy basically. So I have lots of 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:54.840 different specialities. I often say I have these 00:01:54.840 --> 00:01:57.260 different channels that run through my life. 00:01:57.400 --> 00:01:59.280 And at the time, I thought I had lots of different 00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:01.239 specialisms. And now it's kind of worked out 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:04.069 that... It's all come together. So I'm an EMDR 00:02:04.069 --> 00:02:07.069 specialist, which means I do trauma. I'm a trauma 00:02:07.069 --> 00:02:09.250 therapist. I work with people who've experienced 00:02:09.250 --> 00:02:13.449 trauma, but I also specialize in autism and particularly 00:02:13.449 --> 00:02:15.590 working with autistic children, young people 00:02:15.590 --> 00:02:18.750 and their families. And I actually did that before 00:02:18.750 --> 00:02:20.750 I trained as a clinical psychologist. So clinical 00:02:20.750 --> 00:02:22.969 psychologist, just for people who aren't clear, 00:02:23.030 --> 00:02:24.849 because often people aren't, is that I'm not 00:02:24.849 --> 00:02:27.050 a psychiatrist. So I'm not a medical doctor. 00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:29.919 have a doctorate, which is why I'm Dr. Naomi 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:32.699 Fisher, but I specialize in behavior and mental 00:02:32.699 --> 00:02:36.460 health. So I'm not using medical methods to help 00:02:36.460 --> 00:02:40.080 people. I'm using talking and EMDR in my case. 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:42.919 And I actually decided to PhD in autism before 00:02:42.919 --> 00:02:45.719 I did my clinical training. So I have kind of 00:02:45.719 --> 00:02:48.719 had an interest in autism. dating back to university, 00:02:48.860 --> 00:02:51.439 actually, all the way through. But then I've 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:53.259 also specialised in trauma and I worked in the 00:02:53.259 --> 00:02:55.659 NHS as a trauma therapist for quite a long time. 00:02:55.819 --> 00:02:59.180 And then in 2018, I stopped working in the NHS 00:02:59.180 --> 00:03:01.099 and I've been in private practice ever since. 00:03:01.419 --> 00:03:04.719 And now, and I also have an interest, which again, 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:07.120 kind of, I thought initially was separate, but 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:10.400 now has merged in alternative education. And 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:12.810 that really came about. actually because I home 00:03:12.810 --> 00:03:14.590 educated my own children when they were really 00:03:14.590 --> 00:03:17.990 young. And I was so naive when I started home 00:03:17.990 --> 00:03:21.330 education. I didn't realise that, of course, 00:03:21.330 --> 00:03:24.050 lots of children who struggle with the education 00:03:24.050 --> 00:03:26.409 system are going to end up being home educated 00:03:26.409 --> 00:03:28.830 because their parents can't find another way 00:03:28.830 --> 00:03:31.229 forward for them. When I did my PhD, I visited 00:03:31.229 --> 00:03:32.849 children with learning disabilities and autistic 00:03:32.849 --> 00:03:35.550 children all over London and I visited them all 00:03:35.550 --> 00:03:38.599 at school. I contacted schools. I recruited children 00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:40.840 through schools. I visited so many special schools. 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:43.020 And then it never occurred to me that actually 00:03:43.020 --> 00:03:45.340 a lot of these children wouldn't be at school. 00:03:45.500 --> 00:03:47.319 They would be home educated. And I think that's 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:49.259 increasingly been the case. So when I home educated 00:03:49.259 --> 00:03:52.439 my own children, I suddenly met all these children. 00:03:52.539 --> 00:03:55.580 And I was like, oh, this is where you are. This 00:03:55.580 --> 00:03:58.000 is where you are. And also you're completely 00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:01.699 missing from the research because it would not 00:04:01.699 --> 00:04:03.860 have occurred to me. And I've thought about myself 00:04:03.860 --> 00:04:06.560 as a... So I see myself as a developmental psychologist 00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:09.759 in my training and I've learned about how brain 00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:12.340 children develop and learning and educate and 00:04:12.340 --> 00:04:14.240 all that kind of thing. And I thought, you know, 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:17.120 I did so much learning about developmental psychology 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:20.459 and nobody ever said, you know what, this is 00:04:20.459 --> 00:04:22.860 development in the context of school that we're 00:04:22.860 --> 00:04:25.259 talking about. We're only really talking about 00:04:25.259 --> 00:04:28.759 child development for children who spend 30 hours 00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:33.220 a week every week in a school environment. It's 00:04:33.220 --> 00:04:35.519 like that's invisible to us. And so I was seeing 00:04:35.519 --> 00:04:37.360 these home educated children. I was saying, oh, 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:39.860 wow, actually things that look quite different 00:04:39.860 --> 00:04:41.579 when you're not at school. And of course, it's 00:04:41.579 --> 00:04:43.480 obvious that things look quite different when 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:45.600 you're not at school. It's a lot of time not 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:48.240 to be doing something different. But it's like 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:51.279 this invisible factor in developmental psychology 00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:54.199 or in how we think about childhood in general. 00:04:54.519 --> 00:04:57.120 Yeah, it's just assumed, isn't it? Of course, 00:04:57.120 --> 00:04:59.240 children are at school. And it wasn't until my 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:01.860 children weren't at school that I was like, oh. 00:05:02.900 --> 00:05:04.740 Maybe there's something really important that 00:05:04.740 --> 00:05:06.720 needs to be said here. So my first couple of 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:09.480 books are actually about home. Well, they're 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:12.160 about alternative educating outside the school 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:15.220 system. And there's one particularly about neurodivergent 00:05:15.220 --> 00:05:18.360 children being educated outside the school system 00:05:18.360 --> 00:05:20.240 and what that looks like, because often families. 00:05:21.019 --> 00:05:23.519 kind of pushed into home education because they 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:27.540 can't find an appropriate setting or they can't 00:05:27.540 --> 00:05:29.339 get an EHCP or, you know, you know the whole 00:05:29.339 --> 00:05:31.600 story of why people can't get the right kind 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:33.339 of education for their child. So they're kind 00:05:33.339 --> 00:05:35.360 of pushed into home education. And then everybody 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:37.160 tells them that this is going to be a disaster 00:05:37.160 --> 00:05:39.500 and that their children desperately need to be 00:05:39.500 --> 00:05:41.759 at school. I worked with one parent who was told 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:43.639 by their pediatrician, they said, we're going 00:05:43.639 --> 00:05:45.240 to home educate. And their pediatrician said, 00:05:45.339 --> 00:05:46.839 well, you're going to ruin their life and your 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:50.259 life. I mean, What a thing to be having held 00:05:50.259 --> 00:05:52.959 over you. I mean, it is such a big ask. I've 00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:55.259 been on both sides of this, actually. I'm a foster 00:05:55.259 --> 00:05:57.720 carer, disabilities foster carer. And we were 00:05:57.720 --> 00:06:00.699 looking after a boy for 10 or 11 months. And 00:06:00.699 --> 00:06:04.100 he was out of education for all of that time, 00:06:04.100 --> 00:06:08.439 bar six weeks. He just knew what to do. Well, 00:06:08.579 --> 00:06:10.720 he wanted to know that the school was concrete, 00:06:10.839 --> 00:06:13.600 is what he wanted. Because this was his eighth, 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:16.540 ninth school. He was 11 years old. So he wanted 00:06:16.540 --> 00:06:18.959 to know they were concrete. So he would do things 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:21.019 purposely to know, like, are you going to let 00:06:21.019 --> 00:06:23.040 me down too? That's where it was coming from. 00:06:23.259 --> 00:06:25.600 But he would purposely do these things. So he 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:28.660 knew in six weeks, you know, he knew how to test 00:06:28.660 --> 00:06:31.120 them and they were tested and didn't pass his 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:35.259 test and he was out again. So yeah, I have, I 00:06:35.259 --> 00:06:37.319 wasn't teaching at that time. I was, you know, 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:39.819 full -time foster carer for him. And so, yeah, 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:41.980 I've seen it both sides. Slightly different being 00:06:41.980 --> 00:06:44.920 a foster carer, but you know, we felt incredibly 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:47.970 isolated. I was also incredibly passionate about 00:06:47.970 --> 00:06:51.410 him having high, you know, good quality alternative 00:06:51.410 --> 00:06:55.329 education. But it's hard being the parent, the 00:06:55.329 --> 00:06:58.009 social worker, the teacher, the everybody, wearing 00:06:58.009 --> 00:07:01.509 so many hats. Yeah. It got muddy, honestly. It 00:07:01.509 --> 00:07:04.350 does. Absolutely. You're juggling so many different 00:07:04.350 --> 00:07:06.750 things. I'll bet even more as a foster carer. 00:07:06.829 --> 00:07:10.149 But also, you're juggling all those roles while 00:07:10.149 --> 00:07:12.329 often being told by other people that you're 00:07:12.329 --> 00:07:14.839 doing the wrong thing. You know, I mean, if a 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:17.100 child's excluded from school, at least, I mean, 00:07:17.100 --> 00:07:18.920 I know there are not many good things about being 00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:21.839 excluded. But one good thing is that it is the 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:24.779 school who has said no. Whereas in many cases 00:07:24.779 --> 00:07:27.680 of the children who I work with, the child has 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:30.819 been saying no for a long time. And the parents 00:07:30.819 --> 00:07:33.980 have been told you must insist. You must force 00:07:33.980 --> 00:07:35.759 them. And maybe not even verbally. They might 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:38.180 be showing no through their behaviours, through 00:07:38.180 --> 00:07:40.959 their mental health, through their burnout. Exactly. 00:07:40.980 --> 00:07:44.980 I worked with one girl. And she had stopped talking 00:07:44.980 --> 00:07:48.459 and stopped eating. Oh, I hate it. And she was 00:07:48.459 --> 00:07:52.560 a very articulate child and she was situationally 00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:54.740 mute at school, but also she had become unable 00:07:54.740 --> 00:07:57.560 to eat and was on a liquid diet at age eight. 00:07:57.620 --> 00:08:00.879 And her parents made the decision, OK, this is 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:02.660 not something we can carry on with. We're going 00:08:02.660 --> 00:08:05.829 to take her out. But everybody says. you're that's 00:08:05.829 --> 00:08:07.910 a terrible decision how can you do that and I 00:08:07.910 --> 00:08:09.970 think that's really difficult to hold you're 00:08:09.970 --> 00:08:12.629 working you're working so hard to do what's right 00:08:12.629 --> 00:08:16.129 for your child and nobody's saying great well 00:08:16.129 --> 00:08:18.129 done go for it you're doing a massive amazing 00:08:18.129 --> 00:08:19.769 job there so that was what I was trying to do 00:08:19.769 --> 00:08:21.550 actually in my first couple of books I was trying 00:08:21.550 --> 00:08:24.689 to say look this is a massive decision you've 00:08:24.689 --> 00:08:27.750 you know this is a really brave decision to have 00:08:27.750 --> 00:08:30.129 taken it's a sacrifice it's a huge sacrifice 00:08:30.129 --> 00:08:33.429 yes people give up their careers people i mean 00:08:33.429 --> 00:08:36.409 yeah and their respite everything everything 00:08:36.409 --> 00:08:39.629 absolutely and only to have other people saying 00:08:39.629 --> 00:08:41.570 well i wouldn't do that or you know aren't you 00:08:41.570 --> 00:08:46.110 worried about gcses yeah yeah yeah so actually 00:08:46.110 --> 00:08:49.809 it's that decision isn't made lightly you know 00:08:49.809 --> 00:08:52.169 i've gosh i've had friends that have made a similar 00:08:52.169 --> 00:08:56.250 decision and it is months or years of should 00:08:56.250 --> 00:08:59.590 i but what if but what if but what if and if 00:08:59.590 --> 00:09:01.549 they're if they can't ask their children either 00:09:01.549 --> 00:09:04.169 like if their children yeah are showing signs 00:09:04.169 --> 00:09:06.629 of not being happy but not able to have that 00:09:06.629 --> 00:09:08.970 articulate it no yeah not able to have that conversation 00:09:08.970 --> 00:09:11.409 of do you really know what this means you know 00:09:11.409 --> 00:09:13.679 yeah they're having to have the They're holding 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:16.059 the whole thing. I know. And they're worried 00:09:16.059 --> 00:09:18.159 that maybe in years to come, the child will look 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:20.000 at them and say, why didn't you make me go to 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:22.519 school? And I'm a huge advocate in alternative 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:25.460 education and home education. I think it is fantastic, 00:09:25.700 --> 00:09:28.700 regardless of whether it is really, really needed 00:09:28.700 --> 00:09:31.639 in what we're talking about or just wanted. Yeah, 00:09:31.659 --> 00:09:35.059 that's fine too. luxury absolutely yeah but i 00:09:35.059 --> 00:09:37.679 don't think it should be because of the failure 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:41.340 of counties and the government like i just don't 00:09:41.340 --> 00:09:42.679 i just don't think that's fair i think these 00:09:42.679 --> 00:09:45.620 children deserve the education that suits them 00:09:45.620 --> 00:09:48.580 that honors them that where they can thrive and 00:09:48.580 --> 00:09:51.500 be educated and if a parent then chooses to want 00:09:51.500 --> 00:09:53.840 to Awesome. That's awesome. It should be a choice. 00:09:53.860 --> 00:09:55.480 That's the thing. And for lots of parents, it's 00:09:55.480 --> 00:09:57.399 not a choice. It isn't. It's not a choice at 00:09:57.399 --> 00:10:00.980 all. And it's so unfair that the EHCP is funding, 00:10:01.179 --> 00:10:03.080 you know, all of that funding and everything 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:07.419 has gone. I know. You know, the kids in my class, 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:10.779 it's tens of thousands that they get from the 00:10:10.779 --> 00:10:13.240 government for their education to cover one -to 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:15.740 -ones, to cover therapies, to cover the room, 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:17.340 to cover the teaching, to cover the provision. 00:10:17.580 --> 00:10:21.679 Everything is gone. Yeah. Because it... they 00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:23.820 you know they couldn't meet the needs of the 00:10:23.820 --> 00:10:27.120 child it just doesn't seem fair at all I think 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:29.179 and I think it does come down to the way that 00:10:29.179 --> 00:10:32.539 most people don't understand home education unless 00:10:32.539 --> 00:10:34.559 they've been really like I would count myself 00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:36.879 among that I absolutely didn't understand home 00:10:36.879 --> 00:10:39.000 education until we were doing it and I don't 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:41.019 you don't understand who these parents are and 00:10:41.019 --> 00:10:43.350 I think it's clear from The government says that 00:10:43.350 --> 00:10:45.429 they just, I don't know who they think home educators 00:10:45.429 --> 00:10:47.830 are, but they absolutely don't think that these 00:10:47.830 --> 00:10:50.049 are responsible parents taking the best decision 00:10:50.049 --> 00:10:52.210 that they can in the circumstances who are actually 00:10:52.210 --> 00:10:56.009 taking an enormous cost away from the system 00:10:56.009 --> 00:10:58.929 in order to do it. Costing more than just financial 00:10:58.929 --> 00:11:01.029 as well. Costing their relationships. Oh, cost 00:11:01.029 --> 00:11:04.250 on every level. Every level. Cost in energy, 00:11:04.570 --> 00:11:06.909 cost in, you know, I've had families that have 00:11:06.909 --> 00:11:09.929 lost their external family support network because 00:11:09.929 --> 00:11:11.690 they haven't agreed with the decisions they've 00:11:11.690 --> 00:11:16.009 made. You know, such a cost. Yeah. Yeah. And 00:11:16.009 --> 00:11:18.029 then to be kind of portrayed as if this is a 00:11:18.029 --> 00:11:20.269 feckless decision or if you're not doing the 00:11:20.269 --> 00:11:22.710 best for your child or it's, you know. gentle 00:11:22.710 --> 00:11:27.029 parenting yes exactly too permissive or i saw 00:11:27.029 --> 00:11:28.909 some some articles saying oh no it's because 00:11:28.909 --> 00:11:31.250 now that parents work from so many more parents 00:11:31.250 --> 00:11:33.470 work from home that you know when that it's much 00:11:33.470 --> 00:11:34.909 easier for them to keep their children at home 00:11:34.909 --> 00:11:37.669 and i was like clearly you have never worked 00:11:37.669 --> 00:11:41.309 from home with a child because i can tell you 00:11:41.309 --> 00:11:44.330 it is not easy to work for it is not easier to 00:11:44.330 --> 00:11:46.250 work from home if your child is happy in school 00:11:46.250 --> 00:11:48.730 you would much rather be working at home with 00:11:48.730 --> 00:11:51.320 your child at school Yeah, because I suppose, 00:11:51.379 --> 00:11:54.240 yeah, the thing is that if they're not happy 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:56.039 at school, you're constantly being brought in 00:11:56.039 --> 00:11:58.240 to come and collect them. You're constantly coming 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:00.580 in for meetings. And it is so much stress and 00:12:00.580 --> 00:12:02.860 pressure that I can totally see why the parent 00:12:02.860 --> 00:12:05.840 is like, why are we doing this? Absolutely. And 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:08.059 also it becomes impossible to hold down a job, 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:10.679 doesn't it? That's the thing. One parent I talked 00:12:10.679 --> 00:12:13.100 to, she's got three boys. I think they're all 00:12:13.100 --> 00:12:15.779 autistic. And she said, I would get into work, 00:12:15.879 --> 00:12:17.700 I would sit down and then there'd be a phone 00:12:17.700 --> 00:12:19.700 call from the school and they'd say, can you 00:12:19.700 --> 00:12:21.399 come in? He's on the port -a -cabin roof again. 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:24.559 And she said, my employer said, you're going 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:26.279 to have to choose between taking the calls from 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:28.000 school or keeping the job. And she's like, well, 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:30.399 there's no choice. Yeah, that isn't a choice. 00:12:30.740 --> 00:12:33.919 There's no choice. So now she has no job. I'm 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:36.159 also really, I mean, this might be a quite sexist, 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:38.039 feminist thing for me to say, but I also feel 00:12:38.039 --> 00:12:40.940 like it often falls, and not always, but it often 00:12:40.940 --> 00:12:42.879 falls on the women to pick up that free labour. 00:12:43.839 --> 00:12:46.360 Which I'm also really passionate about. You know, 00:12:46.379 --> 00:12:49.159 as two, we're very highly educated women. We 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:50.940 are so passionate about our jobs. We do such 00:12:50.940 --> 00:12:55.179 good work. That would be a huge loss to society. 00:12:55.220 --> 00:12:59.159 It's absolutely women. I agree. It was the mental 00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:02.639 load. I think women take it on. But women have 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:04.659 it put upon them all the time. There's the assumption, 00:13:04.779 --> 00:13:07.279 isn't there, that your job, you can put that 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:10.360 aside and go in. that'll always be all right. 00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:12.700 Yeah, that's not fair either. No, it's definitely. 00:13:12.820 --> 00:13:14.820 I mean, out of the people who follow me on my 00:13:14.820 --> 00:13:17.960 Facebook page, they're 95 % female, which I think 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:21.639 is quite indicative of itself, of who's doing 00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:24.399 this work, this invisible work. I always say 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:27.759 the invisible work of parenting. Unpaid, undervalued, 00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:30.320 and you only get noticed when it goes wrong. 00:13:30.929 --> 00:13:33.889 You know, if it's going well, everybody's like, 00:13:33.970 --> 00:13:35.710 why are you making such a fuss? You know, they're 00:13:35.710 --> 00:13:37.629 doing absolutely fine. I'm sure in the moment 00:13:37.629 --> 00:13:39.250 it goes wrong, it's like, oh, you haven't got 00:13:39.250 --> 00:13:42.269 to get that child under control. Yeah. Yeah. 00:13:43.629 --> 00:13:46.789 The mental load of it all. And I'm really passionate 00:13:46.789 --> 00:13:50.730 about that. I'm so encouraging of women, you 00:13:50.730 --> 00:13:54.049 know. doing what they where their passions lie 00:13:54.049 --> 00:13:56.450 where they thrive and that can look like so many 00:13:56.450 --> 00:13:59.090 different things you know maybe women do thrive 00:13:59.090 --> 00:14:01.330 not working and home educating their children 00:14:01.330 --> 00:14:05.090 amazing do that I wish that so much for you but 00:14:05.090 --> 00:14:07.190 also like I also want you to be a doctor if you 00:14:07.190 --> 00:14:09.909 want to be yeah exactly it should be okay to 00:14:09.909 --> 00:14:11.929 say no that isn't the right thing for me as well 00:14:11.929 --> 00:14:15.210 as yes this is the right thing for me yeah absolutely 00:14:15.210 --> 00:14:20.330 we've got to talk about screen time I was I was 00:14:20.330 --> 00:14:23.529 gonna say i was recommended you this is why i 00:14:23.529 --> 00:14:26.450 really wanted you here i'm so pleased um that 00:14:26.450 --> 00:14:29.389 you could be here we i had a question so lots 00:14:29.389 --> 00:14:32.289 of my audience are women and they are the most 00:14:32.289 --> 00:14:33.710 incredible women they could be teaching assistants 00:14:33.710 --> 00:14:37.070 teachers senkos and mothers but lots of them 00:14:37.070 --> 00:14:40.610 95 saying it are women and i get lots of questions 00:14:40.610 --> 00:14:45.769 asking the most questions and one was about screen 00:14:45.769 --> 00:14:50.289 time so it was a teacher with TAs who didn't 00:14:50.289 --> 00:14:54.490 agree with her. And she said, this one child 00:14:54.490 --> 00:14:58.929 is eating lunch and is used to watching Peppa 00:14:58.929 --> 00:15:03.269 Pig on the whiteboard whilst they eat. And the 00:15:03.269 --> 00:15:05.710 TA said, well, he has to, it's better that than 00:15:05.710 --> 00:15:07.610 eating. And she wasn't comfortable with that 00:15:07.610 --> 00:15:11.940 and wanted to know what I thought about it. Okay, 00:15:11.980 --> 00:15:13.759 so the TA wants him to be able to watch Peppa 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:16.299 Pig and she thinks that he should be... No. Yes, 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:18.440 yes, yes. Sorry, yes. The TA wants him to watch 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:20.419 Peppa Pig because better that than him not eating. 00:15:20.659 --> 00:15:24.779 Yeah, yeah. And she said he gets really overexcited 00:15:24.779 --> 00:15:27.139 and overstimulated watching it. It could be dangerous, 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:29.519 you know. Sometimes he paces around whilst watching 00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:31.639 it and that could be seen dangerous and she wanted 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:34.220 an alternative. And without me saying what I 00:15:34.220 --> 00:15:37.779 answered, I would love... to hear your thoughts 00:15:37.779 --> 00:15:39.840 is because in the comments below, your name came 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.419 up three, four, five times. So I'd love to hear 00:15:43.419 --> 00:15:46.419 one, why people are linking you with this topic 00:15:46.419 --> 00:15:49.340 and what your thoughts are on this particular 00:15:49.340 --> 00:15:53.200 question, really. Wow. Okay. So that's a, you've 00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:55.200 given me a big question and a small question 00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:58.460 together. Sorry. So I'd like, I'd like to start 00:15:58.460 --> 00:16:02.220 off by saying, I think that the concept of screen 00:16:02.220 --> 00:16:05.250 time has led us in an unhelpful direction. as 00:16:05.250 --> 00:16:08.909 a society I think there's a lot of focus on time 00:16:08.909 --> 00:16:12.610 amount of time a child spends on a screen and 00:16:12.610 --> 00:16:14.490 I remember this from when my own children were 00:16:14.490 --> 00:16:16.929 small panic about how much is all right when 00:16:16.929 --> 00:16:18.889 they're this age and how much is okay when they're 00:16:18.889 --> 00:16:23.990 this age and even then I was thinking this doesn't 00:16:23.990 --> 00:16:26.190 quite make sense to me as a psychologist because 00:16:26.190 --> 00:16:30.210 a screen is only a sheet of glass right that's 00:16:30.210 --> 00:16:33.059 it and Why are we putting everything that is 00:16:33.059 --> 00:16:35.340 done through this sheet of glass together and 00:16:35.340 --> 00:16:37.399 calling it screen time? We don't do that with 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:40.600 other stuff. We don't say reading, writing, drawing, 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:43.820 all paper time. Better put that together and 00:16:43.820 --> 00:16:47.240 limit how much paper time they have. Or, you 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:50.139 know, sofa time. Things we do on the sofa. We 00:16:50.139 --> 00:16:53.720 only really do that with screen time. And I think 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:57.120 that has had a detrimental effect. on lots and 00:16:57.120 --> 00:16:59.139 lots of levels. But one way I think it's had 00:16:59.139 --> 00:17:01.360 a detrimental effect is I think parents are highly 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:03.860 anxious about screen time, teachers as well. 00:17:04.259 --> 00:17:06.859 And that can prevent them from really thinking 00:17:06.859 --> 00:17:09.619 about what is this child actually doing here? 00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:11.839 And is it a problem or not? Because we think 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:13.579 it's done through a screen, it must be a problem. 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:16.720 And I do think we have to get much more nuanced 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:18.980 because I think there are things that children 00:17:18.980 --> 00:17:22.119 do on screens which are not good for them and 00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:25.640 which... can raise safeguarding issues and all 00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:27.680 sorts of things. And I think we have to be really 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:30.059 on that. But I think there are also lots of things 00:17:30.059 --> 00:17:32.960 that children do on screens, which are really 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:36.660 beneficial for them, particularly autistic children, 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:38.680 children with special educational needs, but 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:41.279 actually all children, I think. And because we've 00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:43.700 lumped it all together, we've got this kind of 00:17:43.700 --> 00:17:48.359 fear of all of it. That fear has a few impacts. 00:17:48.579 --> 00:17:51.220 One of the impacts it has is that often parents 00:17:51.220 --> 00:17:53.619 actually don't know very much about what their 00:17:53.619 --> 00:17:55.319 children are actually doing on a screen because 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:57.680 they're just like, screen time, waste of time. 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:02.880 One parent I talked to, her little boy had strict 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:04.779 screen time limits. I think it was 30 minutes 00:18:04.779 --> 00:18:06.720 a day or something. And I said to her, what's 00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:09.279 he doing in those 30 minutes? She said, I have 00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:14.259 no idea. I don't want to get involved. And I 00:18:14.259 --> 00:18:15.799 was like, well, that's a real missed opportunity. 00:18:16.619 --> 00:18:19.299 Because... Actually, what children do on screens 00:18:19.299 --> 00:18:23.039 is vastly different. And there are amazing things 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:26.140 that you can do on a tablet, particularly a child 00:18:26.140 --> 00:18:27.880 with learning disabilities can do on a tablet 00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:30.400 that they cannot do in any other context because 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:33.400 it reduces barriers. You know, it becomes the 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:35.819 most, I see loads of children for whom something 00:18:35.819 --> 00:18:38.059 they do on the tablet is the most complex thing 00:18:38.059 --> 00:18:40.619 that they can do. They can play, they can build 00:18:40.619 --> 00:18:43.279 houses. You can like Minecraft, one of my favorite 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:45.240 games of all time. It's so fantastic. It's an 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:47.970 amazing game. You can build. amazing things in 00:18:47.970 --> 00:18:51.490 minecraft and you are much less limited by any 00:18:51.490 --> 00:18:54.109 motor problems you might have than say lego which 00:18:54.109 --> 00:18:57.250 requires really quite a lot of fine motor skills 00:18:57.250 --> 00:19:01.269 and for a child with disabilities they can access 00:19:01.269 --> 00:19:04.970 that joy of making stuff and things even if they 00:19:04.970 --> 00:19:07.369 don't have the fine motor skills that they might 00:19:07.369 --> 00:19:10.150 need to build Lego or something. And actually 00:19:10.150 --> 00:19:12.750 that happens on so many levels that I see children 00:19:12.750 --> 00:19:15.690 who are able to play with other children in something 00:19:15.690 --> 00:19:18.490 like Minecraft when they really struggle to play 00:19:18.490 --> 00:19:21.339 with other children in the outside world. because 00:19:21.339 --> 00:19:23.059 there you've just again you reduce the barriers 00:19:23.059 --> 00:19:24.680 like you can be playing with other children and 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:26.940 you can be at home with your mum and they might 00:19:26.940 --> 00:19:29.240 be at home with their mum and so you can the 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:31.799 parents can really help facilitate that process 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:34.640 and i've heard some amazing conversations between 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:37.339 children playing something like minecraft or 00:19:37.339 --> 00:19:39.529 another game And you're like, wow, there's so 00:19:39.529 --> 00:19:41.529 much negotiation and stuff that's going on here. 00:19:41.589 --> 00:19:42.890 And I just don't think they would be able to 00:19:42.890 --> 00:19:45.789 manage that if that was in the quotes real world. 00:19:45.869 --> 00:19:49.170 So that's kind of one area. And also the other 00:19:49.170 --> 00:19:51.329 thing about it is I think that this kind of fear 00:19:51.329 --> 00:19:54.789 of screen time creates a disconnect between adults 00:19:54.789 --> 00:19:58.210 and children because lots of children, particularly 00:19:58.210 --> 00:20:01.099 those with special needs. what they do on their 00:20:01.099 --> 00:20:03.680 screen is what they love most. That's where they 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:06.339 feel most confident. It's where they feel most 00:20:06.339 --> 00:20:09.200 themselves. It's where they feel really good 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:11.119 about themselves. And for a child who struggles 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:15.440 with school, life, academic stuff, it's really 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:17.339 important that they have a place where they feel 00:20:17.339 --> 00:20:19.559 good about themselves. And I see that again, 00:20:19.619 --> 00:20:21.220 I'm going to use the example of Minecraft again. 00:20:21.420 --> 00:20:25.259 You know, in Minecraft, you can be, you are in 00:20:25.259 --> 00:20:29.109 control of your own world. You are the person 00:20:29.109 --> 00:20:31.569 who can make things happen. You can grow stuff. 00:20:31.690 --> 00:20:33.750 You can breed animals. You can make, you know, 00:20:33.789 --> 00:20:36.309 you make these things happen. And if you think 00:20:36.309 --> 00:20:39.990 of how so many children with learning disabilities 00:20:39.990 --> 00:20:42.990 or with other needs, they don't have many experiences 00:20:42.990 --> 00:20:45.210 in their life where they're the person who makes 00:20:45.210 --> 00:20:47.970 things happen and can see what they do and can 00:20:47.970 --> 00:20:49.849 like, I want to do that. I'm going to do that. 00:20:50.089 --> 00:20:51.890 Nobody's going to stop me. I'm going to do it. 00:20:51.970 --> 00:20:54.089 They need help all the time. You know what I 00:20:54.089 --> 00:20:56.569 mean? They always need support. This is an area. 00:20:57.180 --> 00:21:00.000 where maybe they don't need that. And that, I 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:02.160 think, is actually magic. I think that's just 00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:04.539 really important. Yeah. So I think there are 00:21:04.539 --> 00:21:06.559 some really important developmental experiences 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:09.440 that our children can get through, particularly 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:11.740 video games, but other screen things as well. 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:15.579 And if parents see screen time as bad, then they're 00:21:15.579 --> 00:21:18.240 going to disconnect themselves from that. So 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:20.920 I talked to the father of one autistic seven 00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:23.960 -year -old, and he said, he said, I'm a gamer. 00:21:24.059 --> 00:21:26.660 He said, I love playing video games. But my son 00:21:26.660 --> 00:21:28.519 loves playing video games, but I never play them 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:30.079 with him because I don't want to encourage him. 00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:33.940 And I was like, you've had such a strong message 00:21:33.940 --> 00:21:36.319 there that your child shouldn't be playing lots 00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:39.440 of video games that you've completely not. You 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:41.640 can't connect with him over it. It would be such 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:43.440 a perfect way of connecting with each other. 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:46.680 That's what I said. I said, it's okay. You know, 00:21:46.700 --> 00:21:49.099 go and play video games with him. Because they 00:21:49.099 --> 00:21:51.319 could be side on side, couldn't they? They don't 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:53.099 have to give eye contact. They're talking about 00:21:53.099 --> 00:21:55.460 the game. It's the perfect icebreaker. It's perfect. 00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:58.880 Exactly. And also, if you, well, no, hopefully 00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:00.900 he now is playing video games with his son. Because 00:22:00.900 --> 00:22:03.200 I said, go and play video games with him. But 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:07.819 also, if you become the person who... blaze those 00:22:07.819 --> 00:22:09.839 things with your child, if you become the person 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:11.440 who does that kind of thing with them, rather 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:13.440 than the person who tries to stop them doing 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:16.640 that sort of thing, you can expand their world 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:20.619 through it. So when I meet children whose parents 00:22:20.619 --> 00:22:23.140 are very anti -screen time and very controlling 00:22:23.140 --> 00:22:25.359 about screen time, typically those children are 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:28.950 playing quite low quality games or Because they're 00:22:28.950 --> 00:22:30.970 playing the free games, which are just the worst 00:22:30.970 --> 00:22:33.690 games. So it's not valued. No, it's not valued. 00:22:33.690 --> 00:22:35.589 And it's just like the parent is just seeing 00:22:35.589 --> 00:22:38.529 it as, or they're just watching very repetitive. 00:22:40.250 --> 00:22:41.549 Yeah, exactly. The parent sees it as a waste 00:22:41.549 --> 00:22:43.470 of time. So they don't invest anything in it. 00:22:43.569 --> 00:22:45.970 So the first thing that I usually suggest to 00:22:45.970 --> 00:22:48.769 parents in that situation is find out what they're 00:22:48.769 --> 00:22:51.130 playing. Find out what they're doing. Sit next 00:22:51.130 --> 00:22:53.690 to them if they'll let you. Have a look at what 00:22:53.690 --> 00:22:56.440 they're doing. If you can, get a device yourself 00:22:56.440 --> 00:23:00.119 and join them if you can. And then think, how 00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:02.339 can I improve the quality of what they're doing? 00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:04.759 You know, if they are playing the free games, 00:23:04.900 --> 00:23:08.660 they are terrible. They're designed to frustrate 00:23:08.660 --> 00:23:10.740 you, annoy you, and they haven't got any gameplay 00:23:10.740 --> 00:23:13.039 ability. But sometimes children are very attached 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:16.960 to them. So I would say Google things that like 00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:21.019 those games. but are a proper game, a game with 00:23:21.019 --> 00:23:22.920 playability. And really, you do want to be looking 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:25.059 for things you pay for. Always say, pay for it 00:23:25.059 --> 00:23:27.099 upfront. It's much better than being constantly... 00:23:27.099 --> 00:23:31.960 Yes, exactly. Asked for money to do this. And 00:23:31.960 --> 00:23:35.519 try and create. You can create on a device, basically 00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:40.720 a high quality experiences device. And then as 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:43.140 a parent, you can feel happier about that time 00:23:43.140 --> 00:23:45.920 because you're like... Actually, I know that 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:49.460 they are building worlds or they are making stop 00:23:49.460 --> 00:23:51.640 -motion animation or they're writing stories. 00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:54.940 They do so many things. And I suppose the more 00:23:54.940 --> 00:23:57.019 you know about it, the less fearful you're going 00:23:57.019 --> 00:23:59.140 to be about it because you'll understand it more, 00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:01.599 won't you? You'll see the benefits rather than 00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:04.940 you'll just see this child that gets really dysregulated 00:24:04.940 --> 00:24:06.460 when you come off it and actually it becomes 00:24:06.460 --> 00:24:08.759 a barrier between your relationship, a battle. 00:24:09.650 --> 00:24:11.529 People, parents have a kind of visceral response 00:24:11.529 --> 00:24:13.970 to a child on a screen, don't they? Like I quite 00:24:13.970 --> 00:24:16.250 often on my Facebook page post pictures of a 00:24:16.250 --> 00:24:18.289 child on a screen. Almost always there will be 00:24:18.289 --> 00:24:19.710 a couple of comments which say, oh, Jane, you 00:24:19.710 --> 00:24:22.130 chose that photograph. You know, wouldn't it 00:24:22.130 --> 00:24:23.970 be best to choose a picture of a child, you know, 00:24:23.970 --> 00:24:26.670 doing real playing? And there's this division 00:24:26.670 --> 00:24:32.150 between real play and screenplay. And I think 00:24:32.150 --> 00:24:34.069 it's really unhelpful. And actually, I know I'm 00:24:34.069 --> 00:24:35.769 going on a lot before I even get to Peppa Pig, 00:24:35.829 --> 00:24:41.519 but. For autistic children in particular, I think 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:44.779 play in the real world can be quite hard for 00:24:44.779 --> 00:24:47.839 them to access. And one of the things I noticed 00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:50.200 when I started spending a lot more time around 00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:53.000 home -educated children and looking at children 00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:55.960 and how they developed over time was that there 00:24:55.960 --> 00:24:59.789 are a lot of autistic children who did... exactly 00:24:59.789 --> 00:25:02.849 what the diagnostic criteria sort of say that 00:25:02.849 --> 00:25:04.829 autistic children do, which is that they didn't 00:25:04.829 --> 00:25:06.470 play imaginatively in the same way when they 00:25:06.470 --> 00:25:08.289 were really young. So like, you know, three, 00:25:08.650 --> 00:25:11.529 four, five typically developing children might 00:25:11.529 --> 00:25:13.690 be doing lots of pretending that this is this 00:25:13.690 --> 00:25:16.609 and playing tea parties and mummies and daddies 00:25:16.609 --> 00:25:18.369 and all that kind of thing. Autistic children 00:25:18.369 --> 00:25:21.750 tend to be doing less of that. But what I saw 00:25:21.750 --> 00:25:24.329 in the children that I met was that a lot of 00:25:24.329 --> 00:25:26.390 those children were at the ages of, say, eight. 00:25:26.589 --> 00:25:29.890 nine or ten were starting to play imaginatively 00:25:29.890 --> 00:25:32.890 through something like minecraft because minecraft 00:25:32.890 --> 00:25:36.269 is essentially a role -playing sandbox you you 00:25:36.269 --> 00:25:39.490 go and act out roles and you are but open isn't 00:25:39.490 --> 00:25:42.470 it it's totally open exactly it's like a set 00:25:42.470 --> 00:25:45.029 of toys really you know when we set up a set 00:25:45.029 --> 00:25:47.890 of toys for a child in the real world we think 00:25:47.890 --> 00:25:50.529 that's good parents have really bought into the 00:25:50.529 --> 00:25:53.170 idea imaginative play is good small world play 00:25:53.170 --> 00:25:56.170 is good dress -up play is good but when a child 00:25:56.170 --> 00:25:59.529 does very similar kinds of play but in minecraft 00:25:59.529 --> 00:26:03.309 parents tend to say it's not it's not good it's 00:26:03.309 --> 00:26:05.470 not real it must be limited and i think it's 00:26:05.470 --> 00:26:08.309 as a psychologist i'm like it's imaginative play 00:26:08.309 --> 00:26:13.819 both kinds are imaginative play and this I can 00:26:13.819 --> 00:26:16.519 see that this kind of imaginative play is accessible 00:26:16.519 --> 00:26:19.299 for lots of children for whom actually the more 00:26:19.299 --> 00:26:23.259 traditional imaginative play wasn't accessible, 00:26:23.480 --> 00:26:26.240 but we don't value it. I guess it takes away 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:28.099 the barriers for lots of the children. Lots of 00:26:28.099 --> 00:26:31.140 the children would want to still keep control 00:26:31.140 --> 00:26:33.700 because they're a bit anxious about giving up 00:26:33.700 --> 00:26:35.539 that control. So if they've got their own controller 00:26:35.539 --> 00:26:37.200 and they can choose where they go in their world, 00:26:37.220 --> 00:26:40.039 they can play alongside a friend. Yeah. Even 00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:41.220 if they're not in the same room, they can play 00:26:41.220 --> 00:26:43.079 alongside a friend, but they still keep that 00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:45.259 control. So I can totally see why that reduces 00:26:45.259 --> 00:26:47.900 that barrier massively, which enables them to 00:26:47.900 --> 00:26:51.740 do that. And the expectations. I think, no, I 00:26:51.740 --> 00:26:53.319 think it's really true. And I think the expectations 00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:56.259 are lower as well. Like, you know, I don't know 00:26:56.259 --> 00:26:58.519 if you've ever seen these, but people sometimes 00:26:58.519 --> 00:27:01.299 post things on social media where it's like setting 00:27:01.299 --> 00:27:04.059 up little invitations to play for children. You 00:27:04.059 --> 00:27:06.839 know, so like you'll set up. Yeah, exactly. Like 00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:09.380 a snow landscape or something. And it never works 00:27:09.380 --> 00:27:11.660 that way. It never works. The children never 00:27:11.660 --> 00:27:14.460 want to do the thing. But also when I look at 00:27:14.460 --> 00:27:18.140 those, I'm like, this is so adult led. It's, 00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:21.140 you know. It's got this idea of free imaginative 00:27:21.140 --> 00:27:23.680 play, but actually the adult has decided. It's 00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:25.619 decided that these animals play here. It's very 00:27:25.619 --> 00:27:28.460 tidy and very neat. Exactly. It's neat and tidy 00:27:28.460 --> 00:27:31.140 imaginative play. It's beautiful on Instagram 00:27:31.140 --> 00:27:33.430 and Pinterest or whatever, but it... When you 00:27:33.430 --> 00:27:37.430 come to real children, it's like those stay and 00:27:37.430 --> 00:27:40.329 plays, isn't it? When children are really small 00:27:40.329 --> 00:27:42.049 and you go to stay and plays and there's like 00:27:42.049 --> 00:27:44.650 the water corner and the sand corner and the 00:27:44.650 --> 00:27:47.410 small world corner. And what the children really 00:27:47.410 --> 00:27:50.950 want to do is mix up the water and the sand and 00:27:50.950 --> 00:27:53.650 put the small play into it and make the most 00:27:53.650 --> 00:27:57.210 almighty mess. Yeah. But that is frowned upon. 00:27:57.569 --> 00:28:01.119 Well, I love the EYFS teachers that... but that 00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:04.279 embrace that and embrace that yeah it was i had 00:28:04.279 --> 00:28:06.799 a post maybe last year actually and i said the 00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:10.140 one thing that i'd always been envious of eyfs 00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:12.119 teachers for is that they can have those beautiful 00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:14.940 role play areas and beautiful pathways and all 00:28:14.940 --> 00:28:18.259 of the comments were no we can't yes no real 00:28:18.259 --> 00:28:21.359 children real children don't play that way it's 00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:24.160 it's like we've got this kind of mindset of adults 00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:28.019 of this is what imaginative play should be like 00:28:28.750 --> 00:28:30.930 And we're imposing it on children. It's like 00:28:30.930 --> 00:28:32.690 we've standardised it. I think we forget, don't 00:28:32.690 --> 00:28:34.869 we? We're so rigid in our thinking. We kind of 00:28:34.869 --> 00:28:38.670 lose that fluidity of what can be, will be. And 00:28:38.670 --> 00:28:42.390 we kind of get so stuck in our expectations of 00:28:42.390 --> 00:28:44.450 it. And then we put that on them. Yeah, we want 00:28:44.450 --> 00:28:46.730 them to be doing something, a particular kind 00:28:46.730 --> 00:28:48.630 of play, where it's a particular kind of play 00:28:48.630 --> 00:28:51.230 which like hits our button as, yes, good play. 00:28:51.549 --> 00:28:54.569 Yeah, good parenting. Yes, it really is. It's 00:28:54.569 --> 00:28:57.289 imaginative play of a particular type without 00:28:57.289 --> 00:29:00.190 too much mess, without mixing everything together, 00:29:00.349 --> 00:29:03.170 without, yeah, it is. It's very orderly play. 00:29:03.309 --> 00:29:05.009 And actually, if you think about barriers again, 00:29:05.109 --> 00:29:08.529 with a lot of play, a big barrier for many autistic 00:29:08.529 --> 00:29:11.440 children. all children with special needs or 00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:14.579 just young children is setting stuff up and clearing 00:29:14.579 --> 00:29:17.880 it away again. You know, often if a child will 00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:19.819 say, I'd like, if they want to play with whatever, 00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:23.960 dolls or something, the barrier of actually having 00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:27.000 to go and get out those toys and put them out 00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:29.099 could be enough that they don't want to do it 00:29:29.099 --> 00:29:31.839 anymore because actually they can't quite manage 00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:34.740 that bit of setting up. And then often, of course, 00:29:34.740 --> 00:29:37.099 we saw you do this in schools. Everybody is taught 00:29:37.099 --> 00:29:39.640 to do this with their small children. afterwards 00:29:39.640 --> 00:29:41.740 you make them tidy it up you're like it's tidy 00:29:41.740 --> 00:29:45.359 up time so triggering and yes so you've got two 00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:48.380 big barriers there and a savvy child i've met 00:29:48.380 --> 00:29:50.839 several savvy children who are like you'd be 00:29:50.839 --> 00:29:52.000 like would you like to play with this and they'd 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:54.720 be like no i don't want to tidy it up so you 00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:57.240 say okay so we have created an adult barrier 00:29:57.240 --> 00:29:59.180 here with this expectation that you're going 00:29:59.180 --> 00:30:00.960 to tidy up and that we have to teach you how 00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:05.980 to tidy up no tidying up in my craft yes no no 00:30:05.980 --> 00:30:09.519 setup so there are so many barriers that it's 00:30:09.519 --> 00:30:11.500 just there and you can just stop whenever you 00:30:11.500 --> 00:30:14.579 want and you can leave it however and nobody's 00:30:14.579 --> 00:30:16.220 going to come and mess it up afterwards because 00:30:16.220 --> 00:30:17.500 that's the other thing that happens in the real 00:30:17.500 --> 00:30:19.779 world isn't it you have your play just exactly 00:30:19.779 --> 00:30:21.920 how you want it and it turns out it's on the 00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:26.210 dining room table Yes. Or your parent. Yes. It's 00:30:26.210 --> 00:30:29.210 time to clear up now. And your world is destroyed. 00:30:29.289 --> 00:30:33.009 I actually know quite a few families whose homes 00:30:33.009 --> 00:30:35.630 become increasingly limited as they cannot get 00:30:35.630 --> 00:30:38.369 rid of stuff. Lego in particular. You build an 00:30:38.369 --> 00:30:40.509 amazing Lego thing and then it has to stay like 00:30:40.509 --> 00:30:45.309 that for the next three years. Anyway. Add PDA 00:30:45.309 --> 00:30:48.559 to that as well. So that's another barrier. Totally. 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:50.660 The parents or teachers having the expectation 00:30:50.660 --> 00:30:52.559 that a child will play with a certain thing in 00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:55.460 a certain place in a certain time. The barriers 00:30:55.460 --> 00:31:00.200 to that for a child with PDA is unbearable to 00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:03.420 even imagine, isn't it? Of course they're going 00:31:03.420 --> 00:31:06.059 to not want to play with that. The demand of 00:31:06.059 --> 00:31:07.839 that is huge. And also if you think you're doing 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:10.240 it wrong and you're worried about that. I mean, 00:31:10.279 --> 00:31:12.579 yes, in some ways I think maybe someone, well, 00:31:12.660 --> 00:31:15.059 I think some of the reasons why maybe children 00:31:15.059 --> 00:31:18.059 with PDA. like screen so much is because there 00:31:18.059 --> 00:31:20.359 are so few demands attached to them like nobody 00:31:20.359 --> 00:31:23.000 is interested which is i don't think a great 00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:25.640 thing in the longer term but there's that yeah 00:31:25.640 --> 00:31:28.500 definitely yeah but there's also what you were 00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:31.099 talking about with your peppa pig example so 00:31:31.099 --> 00:31:34.339 the other so i think we have to think way beyond 00:31:34.339 --> 00:31:36.319 time with screen time we have to think about 00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:38.500 what is this child actually doing what is the 00:31:38.500 --> 00:31:41.380 function of what they're doing and is that something 00:31:41.380 --> 00:31:43.619 that is good and we can get alongside with and 00:31:43.619 --> 00:31:46.940 encourage with them Or is it actually a problem? 00:31:47.579 --> 00:31:49.980 And the example of Peppa Pig is a really interesting 00:31:49.980 --> 00:31:53.779 example because for some children, having their 00:31:53.779 --> 00:31:56.400 attention on two things at the same time can 00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:59.539 make it easier to do something. And actually, 00:31:59.559 --> 00:32:01.779 this is part of EMDR, which is really strange. 00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:05.279 So the therapy I do is all about dual attention. 00:32:05.700 --> 00:32:07.880 So actually, when you're helping someone process 00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:10.880 their trauma, you get them to think about the 00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:13.099 traumatic thing that happened. And then you get 00:32:13.099 --> 00:32:15.819 them to do something else at the same time. So 00:32:15.819 --> 00:32:18.799 we actually just use eye movements or tapping. 00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:20.980 So it's quite a basic thing. But actually with 00:32:20.980 --> 00:32:25.420 autistic children, they'll often be playing something 00:32:25.420 --> 00:32:30.259 on an iPad whilst we sort of address the trauma. 00:32:31.579 --> 00:32:35.839 And this dual attention, we don't know quite 00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:38.819 how it works in EMDR, but it seems to sort of, 00:32:38.819 --> 00:32:41.619 it enables us to process information in a slightly 00:32:41.619 --> 00:32:43.940 different way. is what I think happens. And I 00:32:43.940 --> 00:32:46.680 think for a child who's highly anxious about 00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:49.240 something, having something else that they can 00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:52.220 focus on can just take away the demand enough 00:32:52.220 --> 00:32:54.480 so that they can manage something like eating. 00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:57.440 And I think you'll probably find a lot of parents 00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:00.380 will say that their children eat much better 00:33:00.380 --> 00:33:02.640 if they are not all sitting around the table, 00:33:02.660 --> 00:33:05.099 for example, with everybody. Again, that's so 00:33:05.099 --> 00:33:09.029 much pressure. Or are you going to have another? 00:33:09.130 --> 00:33:11.230 Are you going to have this? Are you only eating 00:33:11.230 --> 00:33:13.750 that? Oh, don't you want a bit of this? Pressure, 00:33:13.750 --> 00:33:15.710 pressure, pressure. Or say please. I'm like, 00:33:15.730 --> 00:33:18.230 don't make them say please. I know, that will 00:33:18.230 --> 00:33:21.130 be gone. Yes, please and thank you. All just 00:33:21.130 --> 00:33:24.750 pressure. And actually, the moment you've got 00:33:24.750 --> 00:33:27.490 that device there, you've taken the pressure 00:33:27.490 --> 00:33:31.109 off because now it's... that's okay we're doing 00:33:31.109 --> 00:33:33.769 that and that means it's more safe the ipad has 00:33:33.769 --> 00:33:37.049 never asked them something that it can't do they 00:33:37.049 --> 00:33:39.630 can't do you know they are in control of it so 00:33:39.630 --> 00:33:42.930 of course they're going to opt for that over 00:33:42.930 --> 00:33:46.069 a social demand pressure from an adult or their 00:33:46.069 --> 00:33:50.079 peers exactly and it can also be a familiarity 00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:52.900 thing so i think when you have children who like 00:33:52.900 --> 00:33:54.779 to watch the same thing over and over again because 00:33:54.779 --> 00:33:56.319 sometimes when i talk to parents about this they'll 00:33:56.319 --> 00:33:58.779 say well i can see the value in minecraft but 00:33:58.779 --> 00:34:01.279 what my child wants to do is they want to watch 00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:04.200 the same videos again and again and again and 00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:06.779 i just can't see what they're getting out of 00:34:06.779 --> 00:34:10.059 it um i was talking to a parent actually it was 00:34:10.059 --> 00:34:12.739 um yeah i was talking to a parent recently who 00:34:12.739 --> 00:34:15.539 was talking about her son really liking computerized 00:34:15.539 --> 00:34:19.070 marble runs Apparently there are videos on YouTube 00:34:19.070 --> 00:34:20.110 of computerised marginal. They're really satisfying 00:34:20.110 --> 00:34:22.530 to watch. Have you seen them? Yeah. No, I haven't. 00:34:22.530 --> 00:34:24.289 She told me that I should watch them. They're 00:34:24.289 --> 00:34:27.710 really satisfying. So I think, and I think with 00:34:27.710 --> 00:34:32.349 things like that, we have to think, okay, not 00:34:32.349 --> 00:34:36.670 everything a child does has to be learning or 00:34:36.670 --> 00:34:39.989 educational. Some things that children do on 00:34:39.989 --> 00:34:42.530 their devices, particularly autistic children, 00:34:42.710 --> 00:34:44.510 but probably loads of other children too. I just 00:34:44.510 --> 00:34:47.840 know more about autistic children. can be soothing, 00:34:48.179 --> 00:34:53.139 can be familiarity, can be safe. breathe out 00:34:53.139 --> 00:34:55.900 you know i know where this is while this is going 00:34:55.900 --> 00:34:58.800 and we kind of demonize that as well like i've 00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:01.480 had parents say you know my child when my child 00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:03.500 gets really really unhappy about something the 00:35:03.500 --> 00:35:05.519 only thing that will calm them down is watching 00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:08.559 surprise ed videos on youtube but i don't want 00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:10.420 them to do that because that's a prop and i don't 00:35:10.420 --> 00:35:12.320 want them to have a prop for regulating their 00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:14.900 emotions i'm like we all use props to regulate 00:35:14.900 --> 00:35:18.119 our emotion all the time you know like squishies 00:35:18.119 --> 00:35:20.380 or fidget toys they're all props there's nothing 00:35:20.380 --> 00:35:23.900 that's inherently worse about watching computerized 00:35:23.900 --> 00:35:26.960 marble runs than there is. Very safe, actually. 00:35:27.099 --> 00:35:30.880 Yes, very safe. Much, much better than some of 00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:32.639 the things that people do to regulate their emotions 00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:35.780 as they get older, which might be things like 00:35:35.780 --> 00:35:39.110 alcohol, drugs. And we have to be able to mention 00:35:39.110 --> 00:35:41.449 that, right? There's always an alternative. I 00:35:41.449 --> 00:35:43.429 mean, this is linked, but it kind of is. Whereas 00:35:43.429 --> 00:35:46.510 I often also get messages about how to stop swearing. 00:35:46.510 --> 00:35:49.190 And I think they need an outlet. What is the 00:35:49.190 --> 00:35:52.090 alternative? Self -harm, hurting others, running 00:35:52.090 --> 00:35:55.829 away, you know, really safe. It is probably one 00:35:55.829 --> 00:35:58.929 of the safest ways. And ripping work is another 00:35:58.929 --> 00:36:04.300 one. it's so safe to be able to like exhaust 00:36:04.300 --> 00:36:07.159 that emotion of anger frustration whatever it 00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:09.679 is let them rip paper you know but it's just 00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:11.679 it's linked isn't it because it's like actually 00:36:11.679 --> 00:36:13.460 there needs to be an alternative we can't just 00:36:13.460 --> 00:36:16.500 lock it all up that isn't safe we know we all 00:36:16.500 --> 00:36:18.199 know that we don't have to be a clinical psychologist 00:36:18.199 --> 00:36:19.840 to know that locking emotions away is not safe 00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:23.900 so no so if they're not going to show it in those 00:36:23.900 --> 00:36:27.320 ways then We have to ask ourselves, well, how 00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:30.039 else are they? And actually, is this the safest, 00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:32.599 most appropriate way they have available to them? 00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:34.320 And is it a completely functional way to manage 00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:36.320 your emotions? And I sometimes feel that we have 00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:39.280 these expectations for children. I think when 00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:41.739 we put them into a school environment, we take 00:36:41.739 --> 00:36:45.139 away a lot of the things, a lot of the ways that 00:36:45.139 --> 00:36:48.000 us as adults actually regulate our emotions. 00:36:48.059 --> 00:36:52.340 So, for example, I find being in a classroom 00:36:52.340 --> 00:36:54.599 for more than about an hour with somebody talking 00:36:54.599 --> 00:36:58.010 at me, intolerable honestly I just get to the 00:36:58.010 --> 00:36:59.710 point where I'm just I can't do this anymore 00:36:59.710 --> 00:37:02.510 and if I'm at a conference and I have to do this 00:37:02.510 --> 00:37:03.889 obviously it doesn't happen to me in the same 00:37:03.889 --> 00:37:06.449 way anymore but if I if I'm at a conference or 00:37:06.449 --> 00:37:09.090 a training I'll do things like stand up out of 00:37:09.090 --> 00:37:10.989 my chair I might stand at the back I might do 00:37:10.989 --> 00:37:13.409 a bit of stretching I'll go to the toilet just 00:37:13.409 --> 00:37:16.130 to get myself a bit of just to regulate myself 00:37:16.130 --> 00:37:18.690 because I just stop being able to process if 00:37:18.690 --> 00:37:21.050 I'm sitting in that chair for too long listening. 00:37:21.230 --> 00:37:24.690 Or I start doing things like playing on an iPad, 00:37:25.010 --> 00:37:28.690 taking notes. Yeah, you do. We all do those kind 00:37:28.690 --> 00:37:30.789 of things because it's actually a difficult situation 00:37:30.789 --> 00:37:35.480 for us. And yet with children. We mark all of 00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:38.739 those things as bad behavior. We take away all 00:37:38.739 --> 00:37:41.159 their attempts to regulate themselves. And I 00:37:41.159 --> 00:37:42.920 think one of the things that I do really see 00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:45.579 with children who are out of school environments 00:37:45.579 --> 00:37:48.280 or who are in very, very free school environments, 00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:50.380 and this is particularly autistic children again, 00:37:50.500 --> 00:37:53.860 is that they learn. They learn how to regulate 00:37:53.860 --> 00:37:56.599 themselves in a different way. Like they learn, 00:37:56.659 --> 00:37:58.820 for example, I really need to go out and run 00:37:58.820 --> 00:38:01.260 around right now. They don't necessarily say 00:38:01.260 --> 00:38:04.800 that, but they're like, need to go or they learn 00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:08.099 I need to bounce for a while now you know whereas 00:38:08.099 --> 00:38:11.420 the child who's been kind of boxed in and it's 00:38:11.420 --> 00:38:13.320 been like well you can have 15 minutes movement 00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:16.519 break every morning but we decide when that is 00:38:16.519 --> 00:38:19.019 and you know you go and do it they don't have 00:38:19.019 --> 00:38:21.760 a chance to learn those skills. I definitely 00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:26.159 see that in relation to my class who on paper 00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:29.619 are academically way behind the main their mainstream 00:38:29.619 --> 00:38:31.960 peers that are in the same school but my goodness 00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:33.780 are they so much better at reading and regulating 00:38:33.780 --> 00:38:37.000 their bodies yeah mainstream yeah i see mainstream 00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:39.179 like like you could just see they're about to 00:38:39.179 --> 00:38:41.860 explode yeah when we're walking down the corridor 00:38:41.860 --> 00:38:43.920 and my kids are flappy and tiptoeing walking 00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:46.909 they just know what to do And they really are 00:38:46.909 --> 00:38:48.630 experts in reading their body. So I definitely 00:38:48.630 --> 00:38:51.210 see that firsthand. That's really interesting. 00:38:51.489 --> 00:38:54.010 And I think that's so valuable because those 00:38:54.010 --> 00:38:56.750 are skills which we completely undervalue in 00:38:56.750 --> 00:38:59.150 the school system. Because we, you know, it's 00:38:59.150 --> 00:39:01.289 one of the things I often think about is carpet 00:39:01.289 --> 00:39:03.329 time. You know, small children, four and five 00:39:03.329 --> 00:39:06.570 year olds, we sit them on the carpet, cross -legged, 00:39:06.710 --> 00:39:09.769 really uncomfortable, scratchy carpet, right 00:39:09.769 --> 00:39:12.530 next to the other children. and you have to stay 00:39:12.530 --> 00:39:15.230 there, it's basically, it's like an exercise 00:39:15.230 --> 00:39:17.670 in repression. We're setting them up to fail 00:39:17.670 --> 00:39:19.889 as well, aren't we? We are, because when they 00:39:19.889 --> 00:39:22.469 move, it's bad. Whereas actually, what we need 00:39:22.469 --> 00:39:25.349 to be doing is appreciating that some of them 00:39:25.349 --> 00:39:28.909 need to do headstands and roll around, and some 00:39:28.909 --> 00:39:31.349 of them need to put their hands over their ears, 00:39:31.349 --> 00:39:33.829 and that's their... They're learning how to regulate 00:39:33.829 --> 00:39:35.230 themselves. I suppose it comes from needing, 00:39:35.409 --> 00:39:37.929 because they've got one adult maybe and 32 children. 00:39:38.010 --> 00:39:40.110 It's control and compliance, isn't it? If they're 00:39:40.110 --> 00:39:42.769 all rolling around, we can't have that. Therefore, 00:39:43.030 --> 00:39:45.329 they all need to be sitting. And I feel that's 00:39:45.329 --> 00:39:48.469 the danger, isn't it? Is that fear of losing 00:39:48.469 --> 00:39:52.710 control. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. And it is 00:39:52.710 --> 00:39:55.090 also, it's interesting, it's this mix. I think 00:39:55.090 --> 00:39:58.210 there's often a... kind of strange mixture in 00:39:58.210 --> 00:40:01.769 children where we confuse being controlled with 00:40:01.769 --> 00:40:04.690 self -control. A control, you know, so people 00:40:04.690 --> 00:40:06.730 will often say they have to develop self -control. 00:40:06.849 --> 00:40:08.769 And what they mean is they have to do what I 00:40:08.769 --> 00:40:11.829 tell them. So, you know, self -control would 00:40:11.829 --> 00:40:13.630 mean being able to sit quietly on the carpet, 00:40:13.789 --> 00:40:16.449 for example, when you are told to do so. But 00:40:16.449 --> 00:40:18.909 that isn't actually self -control at all. That 00:40:18.909 --> 00:40:22.780 is being controlled. self -control is something 00:40:22.780 --> 00:40:25.639 like knowing I can't actually sit on this carpet 00:40:25.639 --> 00:40:27.920 anymore because it's really making me uncomfortable 00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:31.579 and I need to wriggle and move my body that self 00:40:31.579 --> 00:40:34.139 could you don't know me there's a and that will 00:40:34.139 --> 00:40:36.239 help me feel better and that's what you're seeing 00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:38.579 in your kids who aren't being forced to sit on 00:40:38.579 --> 00:40:40.880 the carpet because because there is something 00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:45.269 about being less academically able which enables 00:40:45.269 --> 00:40:47.630 people to start to think a bit differently about 00:40:47.630 --> 00:40:49.829 education i mean unfortunately it takes that 00:40:49.829 --> 00:40:53.630 all sensory beings we're all yeah people i mean 00:40:53.630 --> 00:40:55.449 autistic or not we're all sensory beings but 00:40:55.449 --> 00:40:58.869 there are autistic people in the mainstream school 00:40:58.869 --> 00:41:01.690 that are incredibly academically able that are 00:41:01.690 --> 00:41:04.750 just as sensory seeking or sensory avoiding as 00:41:04.750 --> 00:41:06.570 the children in my class and it's just not seen 00:41:06.570 --> 00:41:09.269 because they can read talk right and these are 00:41:09.269 --> 00:41:11.349 the children these are the in -betweeners that 00:41:11.349 --> 00:41:13.280 i'll end up being homeschooled or alternatively 00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:16.159 educated because, yes, the school are meeting 00:41:16.159 --> 00:41:19.659 their academic needs. Great. But they can't access 00:41:19.659 --> 00:41:22.940 those academic lessons. Also, the cost to them 00:41:22.940 --> 00:41:27.079 is so great. That's it as well. The cost to them 00:41:27.079 --> 00:41:29.440 in terms of how they are after school, what the 00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:31.760 impact on them, that's the problem, I think. 00:41:31.820 --> 00:41:36.039 And unfortunately, there is no alternative that 00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:39.889 is provided. Yeah. It's either you are academic 00:41:39.889 --> 00:41:44.469 or you are, you know, send. Yeah. But you can't 00:41:44.469 --> 00:41:48.829 be academic and sensory seeking. No. But I actually 00:41:48.829 --> 00:41:50.809 think that it's a kind of like a Pandora's box 00:41:50.809 --> 00:41:56.070 because I think it's a massive number of children 00:41:56.070 --> 00:42:00.309 who fall into that box of the cost of what's, 00:42:00.309 --> 00:42:02.449 you know, the cost of what is being done to them. 00:42:04.119 --> 00:42:07.059 We just don't see it until it starts to, until 00:42:07.059 --> 00:42:09.460 they're teenagers, really. And I think all the 00:42:09.460 --> 00:42:11.579 way through teenage years, we see it. And then 00:42:11.579 --> 00:42:13.880 we see it in young adulthood as well. And we 00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:15.340 kind of see it. Do you think it's more obvious 00:42:15.340 --> 00:42:18.539 because it shows up more against what they should 00:42:18.539 --> 00:42:21.300 be doing? Whereas we expect three, four, five 00:42:21.300 --> 00:42:23.699 year olds to be a little bit more wiggly, fidgety. 00:42:23.719 --> 00:42:27.440 We allow for more. Yeah. Maybe. I think, well, 00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:29.699 I think a lot of secondary schools are extremely 00:42:29.699 --> 00:42:33.579 controlling. So the stories I hear about what 00:42:33.579 --> 00:42:36.000 I call high control school environments, the 00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:38.579 kind of schools where you have to walk in silence 00:42:38.579 --> 00:42:41.280 in single file along the corridor. You have to 00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:43.079 be sitting in your, you know, you have to come 00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:44.800 into the classroom. There's no chat. You have 00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:46.780 to sit down. You have to immediately do the task 00:42:46.780 --> 00:42:48.980 that's written on the board. The kind of schools 00:42:48.980 --> 00:42:52.320 where you get attention. It's becoming more. 00:42:52.539 --> 00:42:54.719 It seems to over the last 10 years or so, it 00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:57.219 seems to have really expanded. And I think those 00:42:57.219 --> 00:43:00.260 kind of environments, you get more and more kids. 00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:02.760 who cannot cope with that. You get kids who would 00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:05.760 have struggled through a secondary school, more 00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:08.199 like the secondary schools I went to, which were 00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:09.940 quite controlling, but they were nothing like 00:43:09.940 --> 00:43:13.239 that. And then these kids, you get more casualties, 00:43:13.260 --> 00:43:16.199 basically. The way I see it is a lot of these 00:43:16.199 --> 00:43:18.699 children are casualties of the school system 00:43:18.699 --> 00:43:22.019 because the school system is not a place that 00:43:22.019 --> 00:43:25.639 they can thrive. and they crash sometimes you 00:43:25.639 --> 00:43:28.320 get faunas as well which is so common in females 00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:31.400 where the school don't even see anything no the 00:43:31.400 --> 00:43:33.360 school often don't see anything they are compliant 00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:37.559 they get on they're model students yeah But the 00:43:37.559 --> 00:43:39.980 parents see it. Yeah, absolutely. They see the 00:43:39.980 --> 00:43:42.539 burnout, the meltdown. Yeah, the self -harm. 00:43:42.539 --> 00:43:45.440 The self -harm through all sorts of different 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:50.619 ways. And yeah, it's just as damaging and just 00:43:50.619 --> 00:43:53.920 as important to acknowledge. And they're also 00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:55.760 the parents that are choosing to take their children 00:43:55.760 --> 00:43:57.539 out. Out of school. They're not being believed. 00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:01.139 No. No, exactly. And also they just, I think 00:44:01.139 --> 00:44:02.739 they see the long -term impact. And I think it 00:44:02.739 --> 00:44:04.199 gets to the point where parents are like, this 00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:07.159 payoff isn't worth it. Because what school offers, 00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:09.599 mainstream school, this I'm talking about here, 00:44:09.820 --> 00:44:12.920 is really exam results. I think that's, unfortunately, 00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:14.340 I don't think it should be like that. I think 00:44:14.340 --> 00:44:16.360 education should be promising much more. But 00:44:16.360 --> 00:44:18.960 I think at the moment, it's almost like a pick 00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:21.320 that you have to make as a parent of, I will 00:44:21.320 --> 00:44:23.900 put my child into this highly controlling environment, 00:44:24.039 --> 00:44:25.960 which often I feel really uncomfortable about. 00:44:27.079 --> 00:44:29.079 the payoff should be that they'll get good exam 00:44:29.079 --> 00:44:32.820 results and they will have a future. Yes, yes, 00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:34.619 it is. And sometimes it's put really explicitly 00:44:34.619 --> 00:44:37.579 like that. Sometimes schools will say, you know, 00:44:37.579 --> 00:44:41.019 yeah, basically follow our rules and they will 00:44:41.019 --> 00:44:44.340 do well. So that puts, and parents get to the 00:44:44.340 --> 00:44:45.739 point at some point where they're like, you know 00:44:45.739 --> 00:44:48.360 what, it's not worth it. We can't put them through 00:44:48.360 --> 00:44:51.539 this for this promise of sort of future that 00:44:51.539 --> 00:44:54.820 might not even happen because. you might not 00:44:54.820 --> 00:44:56.679 get those exam results. But also exam results 00:44:56.679 --> 00:44:59.519 don't necessarily predict a glittering future, 00:44:59.579 --> 00:45:01.900 do they? Or predict that you're happier. No. 00:45:02.019 --> 00:45:05.420 And if a child can't even get into the exam because 00:45:05.420 --> 00:45:08.619 they're so distraught and anxious, then it's 00:45:08.619 --> 00:45:11.280 all worthless, isn't it? It is completely pointless. 00:45:11.460 --> 00:45:14.159 Yeah. Yeah. And we put them under so much pressure. 00:45:14.239 --> 00:45:15.940 Anyway, we've moved away from screen time again. 00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:17.659 Should we go back to screen time? Of course. 00:45:18.380 --> 00:45:22.900 I love it. This is what I love about these podcasts. 00:45:23.340 --> 00:45:25.639 It's all important though and it is such an important 00:45:25.639 --> 00:45:29.820 topic and I think it then will help others to 00:45:29.820 --> 00:45:32.559 understand why we feel the way we do about screen 00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:35.099 time and in this particular situation. I remembered 00:45:35.099 --> 00:45:36.460 as well there was another part to the question 00:45:36.460 --> 00:45:39.460 which I didn't add which was instead she wants 00:45:39.460 --> 00:45:41.880 lunch to be an opportunity to teach communication. 00:45:42.900 --> 00:45:45.860 Okay. So that was just another layer that kind 00:45:45.860 --> 00:45:48.699 of like made this really important. So I think 00:45:48.699 --> 00:45:51.960 I would say that Probably for this child at this 00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:55.079 point, making lunch an opportunity to teach something 00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:58.300 else is probably too far. And I think actually 00:45:58.300 --> 00:46:02.239 all of us need a lunch break. And this child 00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:05.099 is probably trying to be taught communication 00:46:05.099 --> 00:46:08.320 all the time because that's what happens in school. 00:46:08.639 --> 00:46:11.920 And I think the expectation that you then spend 00:46:11.920 --> 00:46:15.099 your lunch break also being taught something 00:46:15.099 --> 00:46:17.880 else that you find difficult is... potentially 00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:19.739 the kind of thing that pushes that child over 00:46:19.739 --> 00:46:23.480 hey you know i want a sandwich yes i don't have 00:46:23.480 --> 00:46:25.820 to press that button point to that and guide 00:46:25.820 --> 00:46:27.880 you to it in order to get myself i can tell you 00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:29.800 know what i want you know exactly they wonder 00:46:29.800 --> 00:46:32.360 why they're getting dysregulated yes well exactly 00:46:32.360 --> 00:46:35.340 and when a child is hungry is the worst time 00:46:35.340 --> 00:46:37.920 to try and make anything a teachable moment and 00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:41.219 also to potentially make food dependent on that 00:46:41.219 --> 00:46:43.920 talking about eating disorders before exactly 00:46:45.130 --> 00:46:48.309 set it you've set something up where this child 00:46:48.309 --> 00:46:51.190 has to do something has to do something differently 00:46:51.190 --> 00:46:54.150 in order to actually have their food so you potentially 00:46:54.150 --> 00:46:56.329 risk a situation where that child stops eating 00:46:56.329 --> 00:46:59.429 and then you've got a hungry child all afternoon 00:46:59.429 --> 00:47:03.510 nobody wins in that situation so i mean when 00:47:03.510 --> 00:47:06.630 i talk to parents about eating it's always about 00:47:06.630 --> 00:47:10.340 just let Just reduce barriers. You want this 00:47:10.340 --> 00:47:13.300 child to be eating. If they're not eating, nothing 00:47:13.300 --> 00:47:15.559 else is going to happen. It's like sleep and 00:47:15.559 --> 00:47:18.320 eating. You need those things to be happening 00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:20.780 or it does not matter what else you're going 00:47:20.780 --> 00:47:23.579 to do because a hungry, tired child. They're 00:47:23.579 --> 00:47:27.099 not going to learn anything. And speak to any 00:47:27.099 --> 00:47:30.400 parent of a child with an eating disorder, whether 00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:32.340 it's ARFID or other, which is so common with 00:47:32.340 --> 00:47:34.960 autism. Regardless of academic ability, it's 00:47:34.960 --> 00:47:37.679 very, very common. For exactly the reasons that 00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:39.780 you've described, I think, and textures and all 00:47:39.780 --> 00:47:41.739 of the things. There's so many barriers for autistic, 00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:45.300 sensory people around food anyway. If you speak 00:47:45.300 --> 00:47:48.139 to any of them. They would just laugh at you 00:47:48.139 --> 00:47:50.019 if you think that you're going to add any more 00:47:50.019 --> 00:47:52.179 barriers onto that. Because all they want is 00:47:52.179 --> 00:47:55.199 their child to eat. You know, they don't care 00:47:55.199 --> 00:47:58.219 if they're under the table with their 10 iPads 00:47:58.219 --> 00:48:01.519 around them. joy and sing and dance yeah their 00:48:01.519 --> 00:48:03.400 child eats of course they do that quietly somewhere 00:48:03.400 --> 00:48:06.099 else so it wasn't pressure but yes but inside 00:48:06.099 --> 00:48:07.780 you could tell these parents that are just like 00:48:07.780 --> 00:48:10.079 oh my god they've just eaten like i know and 00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:11.960 you know that's so interesting what you've just 00:48:11.960 --> 00:48:13.820 said there as well about eating because a lot 00:48:13.820 --> 00:48:16.360 of parents that i talk to of younger children 00:48:16.360 --> 00:48:19.159 they often have a kind of idea in their head 00:48:19.159 --> 00:48:21.480 of what meal times should look like a bit like 00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:24.639 maybe this teacher has and it's everybody sitting 00:48:24.639 --> 00:48:27.079 at the table having nice conversations together 00:48:27.079 --> 00:48:28.840 and there are these studies that show that you 00:48:28.840 --> 00:48:31.380 know families that eat together it's good for 00:48:31.380 --> 00:48:33.000 you and all this kind of thing and it's a thing 00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:35.019 to beat yourself up about really if you're not 00:48:35.019 --> 00:48:37.159 achieving it family meals are something that 00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:39.119 people think they should be doing and also of 00:48:39.119 --> 00:48:40.239 course there's a whole thing about what they 00:48:40.239 --> 00:48:42.559 should be eating and getting fruit and vegetables 00:48:42.559 --> 00:48:44.539 and all that kind of thing there's so much stuff 00:48:44.539 --> 00:48:47.860 around food and so usually When I meet a family 00:48:47.860 --> 00:48:49.860 and they say things like, well, they'll only 00:48:49.860 --> 00:48:52.519 eat chicken nuggets and they'll only eat it on 00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:55.760 the sofa whilst watching their iPad. And I feel 00:48:55.760 --> 00:48:58.500 terrible about it. And what, you know, how are 00:48:58.500 --> 00:49:01.360 they ever going to learn any other way? And I 00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:03.139 think it's often this kind of projecting into 00:49:03.139 --> 00:49:05.760 the future that people get concerned about. They're 00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:09.059 like, what if they're still doing this when they're 00:49:09.059 --> 00:49:12.239 25? And, you know, that's possible. Some people 00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:18.059 that will happen too. force our young children 00:49:18.059 --> 00:49:20.539 into doing things that we would like them to 00:49:20.539 --> 00:49:24.019 be doing as adults in case they don't do it as 00:49:24.019 --> 00:49:26.760 an adult. Because right now, you just need to 00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:30.489 think about eating right now. Because the more 00:49:30.489 --> 00:49:32.789 you can reduce the pressure on that child right 00:49:32.789 --> 00:49:34.889 here and now, the more they're going to learn, 00:49:35.110 --> 00:49:38.210 the more life will be pleasant for everybody 00:49:38.210 --> 00:49:40.349 and enjoyable. And that's really what you want 00:49:40.349 --> 00:49:42.110 for their childhoods. You don't want to look 00:49:42.110 --> 00:49:44.929 back on their childhood. We spent the whole time 00:49:44.929 --> 00:49:46.969 fighting about whether they were going to sit 00:49:46.969 --> 00:49:50.840 at the table or not. and why and I do know I 00:49:50.840 --> 00:49:53.159 do meet parents I do meet quite a few parents 00:49:53.159 --> 00:49:56.579 actually who have older teenagers and they will 00:49:56.579 --> 00:49:58.719 talk about the difference between how those older 00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:00.920 teenagers are and how they they were when they 00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:02.480 were younger children and they'll be like I just 00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:04.940 don't even hardly can't recognize the difference 00:50:04.940 --> 00:50:08.760 you know so we had younger children who are devoted 00:50:08.760 --> 00:50:11.480 to their devices, only want to play games, will 00:50:11.480 --> 00:50:13.219 only eat if they're watching something, all that 00:50:13.219 --> 00:50:15.059 kind of thing. And they'll be like, and now they'll 00:50:15.059 --> 00:50:17.139 come and sit at the table with us. Growing up 00:50:17.139 --> 00:50:19.639 is an amazing thing. It makes a massive difference 00:50:19.639 --> 00:50:22.659 to everybody. No matter whether you have autistic, 00:50:22.980 --> 00:50:25.119 special education needs, no matter what, growing 00:50:25.119 --> 00:50:26.920 up makes a difference. And I suppose the less 00:50:26.920 --> 00:50:29.139 pressure they've got around sitting at the table 00:50:29.139 --> 00:50:30.400 and the less trauma they'll have around that, 00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:32.849 the more likely they are to come. Exactly. The 00:50:32.849 --> 00:50:35.210 more you make it, you must sit at the table. 00:50:35.250 --> 00:50:36.949 The more likely you are that when they're teenagers, 00:50:37.170 --> 00:50:38.929 they'll be like, no, I'm not doing that. And 00:50:38.929 --> 00:50:41.429 it will have other adverse effects like it will 00:50:41.429 --> 00:50:43.429 ruin your relationship between you and your child 00:50:43.429 --> 00:50:45.389 or the trust or the bonds of the feeling understood 00:50:45.389 --> 00:50:48.329 or feeling heard, you know. it will have huge 00:50:48.329 --> 00:50:51.670 detrimental effects in other areas. Absolutely. 00:50:51.710 --> 00:50:53.750 And I often actually draw the analogy between 00:50:53.750 --> 00:50:57.449 food and screens because I say really what we 00:50:57.449 --> 00:51:00.289 want for our children, I think, with both food 00:51:00.289 --> 00:51:03.809 and with screens, is we want them to have an 00:51:03.809 --> 00:51:06.210 uncomplicated relationship with them. We want 00:51:06.210 --> 00:51:08.409 them to, with food, we want them to grow up thinking, 00:51:08.550 --> 00:51:10.929 I'll eat when I'm hungry, I can choose what I 00:51:10.929 --> 00:51:14.309 eat and I can stop when I've had enough. That's 00:51:14.309 --> 00:51:16.530 really what I consider to be a healthy relationship 00:51:16.530 --> 00:51:19.570 with food. I do the same with screens. I think 00:51:19.570 --> 00:51:23.489 a healthy relationship with screens is I do it 00:51:23.489 --> 00:51:26.429 when I want to, I choose what I do, and I stop 00:51:26.429 --> 00:51:29.050 when I've had enough. And we know with food, 00:51:29.070 --> 00:51:31.449 there's a lot more research with food, that if 00:51:31.449 --> 00:51:33.929 parents get in there and start being very controlling 00:51:33.929 --> 00:51:36.769 about... food, for example, having sugar bans 00:51:36.769 --> 00:51:39.110 or all kinds of things like that, you can mess 00:51:39.110 --> 00:51:41.010 up that child's relationship with food because 00:51:41.010 --> 00:51:43.530 no longer are they eating biscuits, for example, 00:51:43.530 --> 00:51:45.809 because they like biscuits. They're eating biscuits 00:51:45.809 --> 00:51:48.090 because it's this special limited thing that 00:51:48.090 --> 00:51:50.210 they're only allowed to eat on Sundays at three 00:51:50.210 --> 00:51:52.650 o 'clock or whatever it is. And it's hidden away 00:51:52.650 --> 00:51:55.050 the rest of the time. And so they start doing 00:51:55.050 --> 00:51:56.829 things like going through the cupboards, looking 00:51:56.829 --> 00:51:58.349 for the biscuits. You know, there's a whole sort 00:51:58.349 --> 00:52:01.190 of set of behaviors that come into play. when 00:52:01.190 --> 00:52:04.170 there's too much control around food. And I think 00:52:04.170 --> 00:52:06.630 the same stuff happens with screens. If you're 00:52:06.630 --> 00:52:09.750 too controlling around screens, your child will 00:52:09.750 --> 00:52:13.829 start hunting out the iPad. They will start having 00:52:13.829 --> 00:52:17.050 massive meltdowns when they don't get it. It 00:52:17.050 --> 00:52:21.429 becomes this super special thing. And that isn't 00:52:21.429 --> 00:52:23.130 going to be helpful for either food or screens. 00:52:23.289 --> 00:52:25.230 You don't want them to be something special that 00:52:25.230 --> 00:52:27.750 you can only have sometimes when you're really 00:52:27.750 --> 00:52:30.639 good, for example. Yeah, because it becomes a 00:52:30.639 --> 00:52:33.199 treat. Yes. And then as adults, they'll find 00:52:33.199 --> 00:52:35.019 it difficult when they have got that adult around 00:52:35.019 --> 00:52:37.920 them to like moderate that use. They will. I 00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:40.840 suppose, I mean, foods as well, like foods and 00:52:40.840 --> 00:52:44.000 screens are also created to sometimes be addictive. 00:52:44.340 --> 00:52:47.280 Like it was certain foods and certain screens. 00:52:47.300 --> 00:52:51.539 So it's about as adults modelling good, healthy 00:52:51.539 --> 00:52:53.260 use of that as well. And a good, healthy use 00:52:53.260 --> 00:52:56.170 means using it. Yes, exactly. But also putting 00:52:56.170 --> 00:52:58.389 it down and adjusting that. So maybe we need 00:52:58.389 --> 00:53:01.670 to start with ourselves and model that too. Yes, 00:53:01.670 --> 00:53:03.690 and I think make it visible. One of the things 00:53:03.690 --> 00:53:07.550 I often say is for autistic children in particular, 00:53:07.570 --> 00:53:10.070 it's really helpful to make the invisible visible. 00:53:10.250 --> 00:53:13.389 So things that you're doing, it's helpful to 00:53:13.389 --> 00:53:15.409 tell them that you're doing it. So you might 00:53:15.409 --> 00:53:17.989 say, I sometimes say this actually when I'm working 00:53:17.989 --> 00:53:20.130 with children, I'll be like, oh, I've been spending 00:53:20.130 --> 00:53:22.750 a bit too much time on Facebook. I'm going to 00:53:22.750 --> 00:53:25.320 stop. And that's going to be tricky for me to 00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:27.559 stop because I've got used to doing it. I don't 00:53:27.559 --> 00:53:29.360 use the term addiction really with some screens 00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:31.840 because I find that it's one of these fear -based 00:53:31.840 --> 00:53:34.179 words. Again, with parents, it gets them really, 00:53:34.219 --> 00:53:37.940 really anxious really quickly. And I think out 00:53:37.940 --> 00:53:41.219 of all the children I have seen, autistic children 00:53:41.219 --> 00:53:44.380 who are very, very devoted to their screens, 00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:47.000 I can think of none for whom the term addiction 00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:49.519 really fits. I don't think it's helpful. They're 00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:51.739 attached to it. They love it. They feel safety 00:53:51.739 --> 00:53:54.429 in that. It might be the thing they enjoy doing 00:53:54.429 --> 00:53:57.530 most in the world, but that's not the same as 00:53:57.530 --> 00:54:00.710 being addicted. And I'm not saying there aren't 00:54:00.710 --> 00:54:02.429 some children who might not be addicted, but 00:54:02.429 --> 00:54:05.750 I think we have a way overinflated fear of addiction 00:54:05.750 --> 00:54:07.090 when it comes to screens. Would the difference 00:54:07.090 --> 00:54:11.369 of that be that an... addiction would be you 00:54:11.369 --> 00:54:14.289 want to stop and can't but yeah so there are 00:54:14.289 --> 00:54:16.110 a few there are a few things that would make 00:54:16.110 --> 00:54:18.130 something an addiction kind of on a psychological 00:54:18.130 --> 00:54:20.309 basis but one would be that there are diminishing 00:54:20.309 --> 00:54:23.210 joys so you enjoy it like if you think about 00:54:23.210 --> 00:54:25.449 something like drug addiction for example you 00:54:25.449 --> 00:54:27.989 take a drug for a high and then as you continue 00:54:27.989 --> 00:54:29.909 to take it the highs are lower and lower and 00:54:29.909 --> 00:54:32.090 lower and you can you need to take it anyway 00:54:32.090 --> 00:54:34.630 because your body is now addicted to it but you're 00:54:34.630 --> 00:54:36.630 not really getting anything out of it anymore 00:54:37.329 --> 00:54:40.010 Whereas if you see a child who really loves Minecraft, 00:54:40.210 --> 00:54:43.170 for example, they're getting loads out of it. 00:54:43.230 --> 00:54:45.610 They're still getting loads out of it. And the 00:54:45.610 --> 00:54:47.369 reason why parents are worried that they're addicted 00:54:47.369 --> 00:54:49.510 is because when they say, I want you to stop 00:54:49.510 --> 00:54:52.309 now, the children go ballistic and they think 00:54:52.309 --> 00:54:54.369 that's a sign of addiction. And also because 00:54:54.369 --> 00:54:56.510 of things like when the parents say things like, 00:54:56.550 --> 00:54:58.730 you know, you can only play this for half an 00:54:58.730 --> 00:55:01.730 hour a day, the children will do things like 00:55:01.730 --> 00:55:05.449 prioritize that over everything else. You know, 00:55:05.449 --> 00:55:07.570 so I've talked to parents sometimes who say, 00:55:07.610 --> 00:55:09.190 well, we have rules that it's half an hour a 00:55:09.190 --> 00:55:11.070 day and it has to happen before five o 'clock 00:55:11.070 --> 00:55:12.690 in the evening so we have time to wind down. 00:55:12.909 --> 00:55:14.429 And they say, and the effect of this is we can 00:55:14.429 --> 00:55:17.690 never go out for the day because the child will 00:55:17.690 --> 00:55:19.869 be like, are we going to be back before five? 00:55:20.030 --> 00:55:21.130 Because if we're not going to be back before 00:55:21.130 --> 00:55:23.989 five, so I get my half out, I'm not going, which 00:55:23.989 --> 00:55:25.449 makes perfect sense. There's so much fear around 00:55:25.449 --> 00:55:27.630 that, isn't there? Yeah. And they're like, oh 00:55:27.630 --> 00:55:29.820 my goodness, they're addicted. Unpredictable, 00:55:29.980 --> 00:55:32.360 yeah. But actually, it makes perfect sense. If 00:55:32.360 --> 00:55:34.400 there's something you love doing, you're only 00:55:34.400 --> 00:55:36.059 allowed to do it for half an hour a day between 00:55:36.059 --> 00:55:38.480 certain times, you're going to prioritise that, 00:55:38.519 --> 00:55:40.440 aren't you? And so hard if it's used as a treat 00:55:40.440 --> 00:55:45.099 as well because then all day, one, it's put on 00:55:45.099 --> 00:55:48.239 a pedestal as you've just said, but also what 00:55:48.239 --> 00:55:50.820 does good look like? That can change every day. 00:55:51.420 --> 00:55:53.880 And then I'd rather, and I see this in lots of 00:55:53.880 --> 00:55:55.500 children, lots of children with PDA, but lots 00:55:55.500 --> 00:55:57.539 of children in general, regardless of diagnosis. 00:55:58.409 --> 00:56:00.570 I'd rather know I definitely wasn't going to 00:56:00.570 --> 00:56:03.369 have it than it being hovered over me as a maybe. 00:56:03.530 --> 00:56:06.489 So they purposefully do things. It's awful, actually. 00:56:06.750 --> 00:56:09.389 For kids, for demand -avoidant kids, I think 00:56:09.389 --> 00:56:11.710 that is the worst. Being in this state of, is 00:56:11.710 --> 00:56:13.909 it going to happen? Is it not? It brings them 00:56:13.909 --> 00:56:17.789 up into a frenzy of anxiety. And it's, as you 00:56:17.789 --> 00:56:20.869 say, much better just to know, no. And for some 00:56:20.869 --> 00:56:23.489 kids, actually, I sometimes, obviously, when 00:56:23.489 --> 00:56:26.690 I work with parents individually. Like I'm very 00:56:26.690 --> 00:56:28.989 nuanced. It's always I don't have a kind of blanket 00:56:28.989 --> 00:56:31.329 set of you should be doing this. But with some 00:56:31.329 --> 00:56:33.789 kids and some games, if they're playing a game 00:56:33.789 --> 00:56:36.090 which they are really enjoying, but it clearly 00:56:36.090 --> 00:56:39.050 is making them really unhappy. Like, you know, 00:56:39.050 --> 00:56:41.309 some of these games are deeply frustrating or 00:56:41.309 --> 00:56:42.909 they might be playing a game which clearly is 00:56:42.909 --> 00:56:45.309 developmentally just a bit out of sync with what 00:56:45.309 --> 00:56:47.409 they can manage. And they are furious all the 00:56:47.409 --> 00:56:49.449 time. But at the same time, they love it. And 00:56:49.449 --> 00:56:51.010 then then I will sometimes say to parents, you 00:56:51.010 --> 00:56:52.469 know what? Actually, it's probably going to be 00:56:52.469 --> 00:56:55.409 easier if you go cold turkey on that. game and 00:56:55.409 --> 00:56:58.230 you're like i'm sorry it's going i'm gonna and 00:56:58.230 --> 00:57:01.190 you find other games which are more suited to 00:57:01.190 --> 00:57:04.050 them right now that give them that same give 00:57:04.050 --> 00:57:07.690 them the same joy and they exactly and they will 00:57:07.690 --> 00:57:09.909 probably go ballistic when you tell them sorry 00:57:09.909 --> 00:57:12.789 this game's going but you might have to do it 00:57:12.789 --> 00:57:15.110 because that might be the only way to do it but 00:57:15.110 --> 00:57:16.530 what we were just talking about addiction i feel 00:57:16.530 --> 00:57:18.090 i didn't finish what i was saying about addiction 00:57:18.090 --> 00:57:20.469 yeah so there's diminishing returns but also 00:57:21.750 --> 00:57:25.369 Yeah, the reward. It's not just making it a reward. 00:57:25.449 --> 00:57:28.650 It's withdrawing it as punishment. So there are 00:57:28.650 --> 00:57:31.309 two things which, as a psychologist, are bound 00:57:31.309 --> 00:57:33.829 to make something more attractive to somebody. 00:57:34.050 --> 00:57:36.449 You're basically forming associations in their 00:57:36.449 --> 00:57:39.070 brain. If you make something a reward, you're 00:57:39.070 --> 00:57:41.750 pairing it with approval, feeling good about 00:57:41.750 --> 00:57:45.889 myself. It's like a gold star. There's nothing 00:57:45.889 --> 00:57:48.070 about a gold star that is inherently rewarding. 00:57:48.289 --> 00:57:51.070 It's just like a sticky... It feels really good 00:57:51.070 --> 00:57:54.730 because it's been paired with good boy, good 00:57:54.730 --> 00:57:56.989 girl. Like the green tick, like all those kind 00:57:56.989 --> 00:57:58.449 of things. The green tick's exactly the same. 00:57:58.510 --> 00:58:01.170 I'm proud of you. Well done. If you're pairing 00:58:01.170 --> 00:58:03.510 screen time with that, the child's going to want 00:58:03.510 --> 00:58:05.730 it more. Absolutely, they're going to want it 00:58:05.730 --> 00:58:07.570 more. And then parents see that as addiction. 00:58:08.210 --> 00:58:10.170 And then if you do the other thing, which is 00:58:10.170 --> 00:58:12.389 because you behave so badly, I'm going to withdraw 00:58:12.389 --> 00:58:14.789 your screen time and I'm going to take that away 00:58:14.789 --> 00:58:19.070 from you. That does the same thing. So now you've 00:58:19.070 --> 00:58:21.389 paired having it taken away with feeling bad. 00:58:21.829 --> 00:58:24.250 And the more you pair those things together, 00:58:24.469 --> 00:58:26.650 the more they're going to resist having it taken 00:58:26.650 --> 00:58:29.130 away because it's now associated with being bad. 00:58:29.389 --> 00:58:31.469 So there are quite a few things that... I think 00:58:31.469 --> 00:58:34.369 we're pushed to do by this whole concept of screen 00:58:34.369 --> 00:58:37.429 time and the way it's been sort of presented, 00:58:37.670 --> 00:58:41.190 which then lead to this kind of behaviour which 00:58:41.190 --> 00:58:43.190 parents see as addictive. And when they see it 00:58:43.190 --> 00:58:45.809 as addictive, they tend to panic. And I suppose 00:58:45.809 --> 00:58:49.309 these are only the first, maybe second generation 00:58:49.309 --> 00:58:51.610 of parents that have had to even manage screen 00:58:51.610 --> 00:58:52.929 time, but definitely the first generation of 00:58:52.929 --> 00:58:54.730 parents have had to manage screen time in the 00:58:54.730 --> 00:58:58.110 same way. So it's kind of like we're rewriting. 00:58:58.860 --> 00:59:02.820 Totally. Individualized devices are the big thing 00:59:02.820 --> 00:59:05.219 for this generation, aren't they? Yeah. But if 00:59:05.219 --> 00:59:08.400 you think back, there was a lot of fear of TV. 00:59:08.639 --> 00:59:11.559 Yeah. Actually, for our generation, it was all 00:59:11.559 --> 00:59:13.880 about how are they watching you? Are they going 00:59:13.880 --> 00:59:16.380 to get square eyes? And even though now parents 00:59:16.380 --> 00:59:18.679 write in the books, you know, not the books, 00:59:18.739 --> 00:59:20.320 like there are articles in things like the Daily 00:59:20.320 --> 00:59:22.860 Mail about electronic babysitters, you know, 00:59:22.880 --> 00:59:24.920 which I think is a really derogatory term. Again, 00:59:24.960 --> 00:59:27.079 it just feeds that narrative, doesn't it? Totally. 00:59:27.079 --> 00:59:29.280 You are a neglectful parent for letting your 00:59:29.280 --> 00:59:31.099 child on this. Oh, I've seen people post like 00:59:31.099 --> 00:59:33.480 photographs of children in restaurants with headphones 00:59:33.480 --> 00:59:36.400 on and a device and basically condemning the 00:59:36.400 --> 00:59:39.739 parents. And I'm like, that child is probably 00:59:39.739 --> 00:59:42.619 only able to be there because of that device 00:59:42.619 --> 00:59:46.079 and those headphones. But also, why do we have 00:59:46.079 --> 00:59:48.139 this requirement of children that they should 00:59:48.139 --> 00:59:50.400 come to a restaurant, behave in an adult way, 00:59:50.519 --> 00:59:53.760 listen to boring adult conversations and just 00:59:53.760 --> 00:59:56.860 be fine and be fine with that? It's like, again, 00:59:57.059 --> 00:59:59.159 it's completely unrealistic and not something 00:59:59.159 --> 01:00:01.239 we would expect of an adult. If you had an adult 01:00:01.239 --> 01:00:03.400 who wasn't really interested in the conversation, 01:00:03.619 --> 01:00:06.039 didn't really. didn't really like the food you 01:00:06.039 --> 01:00:07.860 wouldn't expect them just to sit there and be 01:00:07.860 --> 01:00:09.900 good would you but that's what we require children 01:00:09.900 --> 01:00:12.480 like if even as a couple so i don't have children 01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:14.000 but it's just me and my husband as soon as he 01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:16.360 goes to the toilet or whatever yeah first thing 01:00:16.360 --> 01:00:18.420 i do is get out my phone i'm gonna be sat there 01:00:18.420 --> 01:00:20.300 just staring at a wall you need to be you need 01:00:20.300 --> 01:00:24.239 to learn to tolerate boredom better jordan boredom 01:00:24.239 --> 01:00:27.239 is good for you didn't you know like we just 01:00:27.239 --> 01:00:29.280 put all this stuff on children and we're not 01:00:29.280 --> 01:00:31.920 even able to do it ourselves are we no we're 01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:35.269 not and also Again, we think of different things 01:00:35.269 --> 01:00:36.469 in different ways, because like if you have a 01:00:36.469 --> 01:00:39.409 child who brings out a book to distract themselves, 01:00:39.690 --> 01:00:42.269 that is generally seen as quite good. You know, 01:00:42.269 --> 01:00:44.570 that's a worthy thing to be doing. We like children 01:00:44.570 --> 01:00:47.849 reading. But for children who can't read and 01:00:47.849 --> 01:00:51.289 who may never learn to read even, then where 01:00:51.289 --> 01:00:53.289 does that leave them? Why should they not also 01:00:53.289 --> 01:00:54.969 have something interesting that they're allowed 01:00:54.969 --> 01:00:57.010 to draw out that they have their own control? 01:00:57.230 --> 01:01:00.119 Again, it's emotion regulation. And it's a functional 01:01:00.119 --> 01:01:02.219 way of emotional regulating. It's much better 01:01:02.219 --> 01:01:04.519 than running around the restaurant and smashing 01:01:04.519 --> 01:01:07.539 plates. Or not feeling like you can go out as 01:01:07.539 --> 01:01:10.280 a family. Which also could happen, yes. Absolutely. 01:01:10.380 --> 01:01:12.539 Which does happen. To lots and lots of families. 01:01:12.699 --> 01:01:16.559 Yes, exactly. Yeah. Ultimately, I suppose this 01:01:16.559 --> 01:01:18.960 whole conversation from start to finish has been 01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:22.599 about... parent guilt and just letting that go 01:01:22.599 --> 01:01:25.139 and you knowing what's best for your child whether 01:01:25.139 --> 01:01:27.420 that's you know keeping them in school removing 01:01:27.420 --> 01:01:29.159 them from school whether that's screen time whether 01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:32.239 that's food you know ultimately your gut will 01:01:32.239 --> 01:01:35.960 be right as to what your child needs so I know 01:01:35.960 --> 01:01:38.079 it's easier said than done but like it's the 01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:40.920 other people's problem like it is not yours and 01:01:40.920 --> 01:01:43.880 it is not your child's to bear that yeah I think 01:01:43.880 --> 01:01:46.699 it's also about starting where your child is 01:01:46.699 --> 01:01:48.900 and joining them where they are. So with that 01:01:48.900 --> 01:01:51.380 child who's playing Peppa, who's watching Peppa 01:01:51.380 --> 01:01:54.059 Pig, for example, I guess, you know, I would 01:01:54.059 --> 01:01:56.820 be interested in what is it about Peppa Pig that 01:01:56.820 --> 01:01:58.300 they get out of it? I'm interested that Peppa 01:01:58.300 --> 01:02:00.059 Pig is overstimulating because frankly, Peppa 01:02:00.059 --> 01:02:01.880 Pig is not one of the things that I generally 01:02:01.880 --> 01:02:04.019 think of as overstimulating. There are some things 01:02:04.019 --> 01:02:05.960 that children watch which might be rather exciting. 01:02:06.539 --> 01:02:11.280 Yeah. I think like, I'm just imagining my, the 01:02:11.280 --> 01:02:12.760 kids in my class, I don't know if this is, I 01:02:12.760 --> 01:02:14.079 don't have a see how to see this child, but. 01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:16.719 Maybe there's like, I don't know, Bing, for example, 01:02:16.820 --> 01:02:19.500 you can go down a slide and splash in the water 01:02:19.500 --> 01:02:21.199 and it's watching that over and over again. It's 01:02:21.199 --> 01:02:23.099 like, it's quite emotive. It's quite exciting. 01:02:23.199 --> 01:02:26.139 That's true. It is quite exciting. Yes, yes. 01:02:26.320 --> 01:02:29.659 Now I see what you mean. But also it's okay for 01:02:29.659 --> 01:02:31.840 a child to be, it's basically, again, it's about 01:02:31.840 --> 01:02:33.719 being engaged with that thing, isn't it? You 01:02:33.719 --> 01:02:35.820 know, if you are really engaged with a TV program 01:02:35.820 --> 01:02:38.719 and I love watching kids who are really immersed 01:02:38.719 --> 01:02:41.230 in what they're watching, they act it out. they 01:02:41.230 --> 01:02:44.230 do it they live it and that's fantastic you know 01:02:44.230 --> 01:02:46.409 because again it's this thing we talked about 01:02:46.409 --> 01:02:50.230 how they'll they are they're following the bit 01:02:50.230 --> 01:02:53.170 of their brain which is saying move move your 01:02:53.170 --> 01:02:57.449 body follow this live in it get into it and for 01:02:57.449 --> 01:03:00.190 so many children we we try and squash that we 01:03:00.190 --> 01:03:02.789 think yeah you know even watching something should 01:03:02.789 --> 01:03:05.150 be done properly you should sit still and it's 01:03:05.150 --> 01:03:08.769 like you know Actually, the vast majority of 01:03:08.769 --> 01:03:12.349 people, not everybody, but most people, as they 01:03:12.349 --> 01:03:14.590 go through puberty and they become teenagers 01:03:14.590 --> 01:03:17.610 and then adults, things like sitting still gets 01:03:17.610 --> 01:03:20.730 a lot easier. Even if you have ADHD, it's a lot 01:03:20.730 --> 01:03:23.230 easier as an adult than it is as a four and a 01:03:23.230 --> 01:03:26.380 five -year -old. And yet we fear... for our four 01:03:26.380 --> 01:03:28.739 and five year olds if we don't make them do it 01:03:28.739 --> 01:03:31.599 now they'll never do it later and i think we've 01:03:31.599 --> 01:03:33.300 just got that really wrong we need to really 01:03:33.300 --> 01:03:36.860 just embrace that sort of childhood period for 01:03:36.860 --> 01:03:39.920 what it is yeah Because it goes so quick. It 01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:42.019 does. And once it's gone, you can't ever go back. 01:03:42.260 --> 01:03:44.519 You know, when we were, people often say to me, 01:03:44.559 --> 01:03:46.239 oh, aren't you worried about gaps? You know, 01:03:46.260 --> 01:03:48.179 if we don't make them do things like sit at the 01:03:48.179 --> 01:03:50.800 table, maybe, you know, aren't we going to, aren't 01:03:50.800 --> 01:03:52.679 we going to regret later on that we didn't do 01:03:52.679 --> 01:03:55.920 it now? And I always think the gap I'm most worried 01:03:55.920 --> 01:03:59.440 about actually is not giving them the full time 01:03:59.440 --> 01:04:03.239 to kind of play and... express themselves and 01:04:03.239 --> 01:04:05.699 move and everything when they're children, because 01:04:05.699 --> 01:04:08.579 actually you can never go back to that. So, you 01:04:08.579 --> 01:04:12.179 know, if you have a 30 year old who isn't sitting 01:04:12.179 --> 01:04:14.199 at the table for meals and you'd quite like them 01:04:14.199 --> 01:04:16.139 to be, you can actually work on that at whatever 01:04:16.139 --> 01:04:18.599 age you are. You know, there's no reason why 01:04:18.599 --> 01:04:20.800 you couldn't do that with a 30 year old as opposed 01:04:20.800 --> 01:04:23.079 to a five year old. But that 30 year old is not 01:04:23.079 --> 01:04:26.119 going to be able to go back and be like a five 01:04:26.119 --> 01:04:27.820 year old and play like a five year old. Like 01:04:27.820 --> 01:04:31.039 we can't do that. Even if we wanted to, we can't. 01:04:31.019 --> 01:04:34.400 we can't go and play in that way that young children 01:04:34.400 --> 01:04:37.840 play again it's gone such a beautiful time it's 01:04:37.840 --> 01:04:40.460 amazing yeah and it's sad that we can't go back 01:04:40.460 --> 01:04:42.880 and do it again and we can pretend but we can't 01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:44.599 you know that's why we fall into the kind of 01:04:44.599 --> 01:04:46.659 jobs that we have fallen into to get the chance 01:04:46.659 --> 01:04:49.500 to pretend my day looks like that yeah yeah but 01:04:49.500 --> 01:04:51.619 it's different isn't it though you're not immersed 01:04:51.619 --> 01:04:53.920 in it you're thinking about it you're developed 01:04:53.920 --> 01:04:57.469 you're you're doing it for other people It's 01:04:57.469 --> 01:04:59.590 not what you would naturally be doing, I'm guessing. 01:04:59.789 --> 01:05:02.929 No, it is different. I do feel like adults should 01:05:02.929 --> 01:05:05.250 find opportunities to play though. I totally 01:05:05.250 --> 01:05:07.969 think we should. And actually video games is 01:05:07.969 --> 01:05:11.550 a really good place to do that. Video games are 01:05:11.550 --> 01:05:15.590 about the one socially acceptable place where 01:05:15.590 --> 01:05:18.579 you can. play more as an adult because in an 01:05:18.579 --> 01:05:20.519 adulthood the other kind of things that we call 01:05:20.519 --> 01:05:24.780 play are usually highly structured things like 01:05:24.780 --> 01:05:28.019 playing tennis or playing a board game you know 01:05:28.019 --> 01:05:31.039 i mean we've like co -opted that word play to 01:05:31.039 --> 01:05:34.239 mean following the rules actually or doing something 01:05:34.239 --> 01:05:38.840 competitive doing well and actually It's not 01:05:38.840 --> 01:05:41.639 that free, imaginative exploration. You can just 01:05:41.639 --> 01:05:44.000 follow a lead, go wherever. It doesn't matter 01:05:44.000 --> 01:05:45.880 whether you win or not. It doesn't matter how 01:05:45.880 --> 01:05:48.400 skilled you are or not. And actually for parents, 01:05:48.460 --> 01:05:50.900 when they've got a child who's really into video 01:05:50.900 --> 01:05:53.900 games, I often say this is a really great opportunity 01:05:53.900 --> 01:05:57.079 for you to be the newbie, for you to be the one 01:05:57.079 --> 01:05:59.599 who isn't good at things, who can't work out 01:05:59.599 --> 01:06:02.639 how it works, and for your child to be the competent 01:06:02.639 --> 01:06:05.440 one. And that's so important for children who 01:06:05.440 --> 01:06:08.440 don't get that opportunity. particularly important 01:06:08.440 --> 01:06:12.199 for children with special needs who don't get 01:06:12.199 --> 01:06:14.460 that chance in the rest of the world. They don't 01:06:14.460 --> 01:06:16.619 get that chance to be the expert, but they can 01:06:16.619 --> 01:06:19.179 be the expert in the game that they play. I think 01:06:19.179 --> 01:06:22.179 adults find that really difficult. We find it 01:06:22.179 --> 01:06:24.960 really difficult to not be able to do something. 01:06:25.059 --> 01:06:28.079 Yes, we do. Or we give up really quickly or else 01:06:28.079 --> 01:06:30.039 we say, you need to tell me what to do or I need 01:06:30.039 --> 01:06:32.429 the instructions. But that's good too, isn't 01:06:32.429 --> 01:06:34.130 it? It's good to remember what we are asking 01:06:34.130 --> 01:06:36.369 these children to do. It's good to put ourselves 01:06:36.369 --> 01:06:38.730 in that position of finding something difficult. 01:06:38.949 --> 01:06:41.469 And certainly if it's putting them as the expert, 01:06:41.530 --> 01:06:44.789 I love intensive interaction for that. My learners 01:06:44.789 --> 01:06:47.170 can't play video games in the same way that some 01:06:47.170 --> 01:06:48.630 of the children we've been talking about, but 01:06:48.630 --> 01:06:52.269 they can stim or make vocal sounds that are incredibly 01:06:52.269 --> 01:06:55.210 difficult for us to mimic. And I love trying 01:06:55.210 --> 01:06:57.869 because ultimately they're the experts in that 01:06:57.869 --> 01:07:00.019 and we can't. do that either but it's a beautiful 01:07:00.019 --> 01:07:02.820 way of connecting just like you were saying it's 01:07:02.820 --> 01:07:05.139 a beautiful way of connecting with them and and 01:07:05.139 --> 01:07:07.900 honoring their expertise in whatever it is that 01:07:07.900 --> 01:07:11.739 they are choosing to do yeah I have loved this 01:07:11.739 --> 01:07:13.539 conversation I feel like we're gonna have to 01:07:13.539 --> 01:07:15.320 have you back because I could speak to you for 01:07:15.320 --> 01:07:17.940 hours this has been so exciting and I know I'm 01:07:17.940 --> 01:07:19.920 going to be inundated with questions about how 01:07:19.920 --> 01:07:21.800 to get children off of screen time so just prepare 01:07:22.190 --> 01:07:23.789 Be prepared in the comments to answer all of 01:07:23.789 --> 01:07:26.190 those for me. That would be great. Fine. Thank 01:07:26.190 --> 01:07:28.449 you so much. The first thing there is shift your 01:07:28.449 --> 01:07:30.989 priorities from getting them off it. Yeah. And 01:07:30.989 --> 01:07:33.369 instead think about it, join them there. Use 01:07:33.369 --> 01:07:35.630 them as an opportunity. It's an opportunity for 01:07:35.630 --> 01:07:38.289 connection, not for disconnection. Love it. But 01:07:38.289 --> 01:07:40.230 that doesn't mean that there aren't some things 01:07:40.230 --> 01:07:42.690 where you're going to have to say, no, this actually 01:07:42.690 --> 01:07:44.510 isn't the right thing for you. But I think you 01:07:44.510 --> 01:07:48.340 gain power to do that. by joining them and actually 01:07:48.340 --> 01:07:50.320 i think parents often fear that it's like all 01:07:50.320 --> 01:07:52.780 or nothing it's like if i play stuff with them 01:07:52.780 --> 01:07:55.539 then i have to also let them free in the world 01:07:55.539 --> 01:07:57.880 of social media which i would not recommend i 01:07:57.880 --> 01:07:59.599 don't think like you said right at the beginning 01:07:59.599 --> 01:08:01.539 there are certain rules around screen time and 01:08:01.539 --> 01:08:03.119 it's really important to and there are things 01:08:03.119 --> 01:08:05.099 you need to be keeping an eye on and you need 01:08:05.099 --> 01:08:07.300 to be aware of and actually i think the whole 01:08:07.300 --> 01:08:10.139 blanket screen time thing acts against that as 01:08:10.139 --> 01:08:12.159 well so it doesn't even work on that level because 01:08:12.159 --> 01:08:14.619 actually if you are doing something on your screen 01:08:14.619 --> 01:08:18.289 which is dangerous for you or which means that 01:08:18.289 --> 01:08:19.909 you you know there are sorts there are things 01:08:19.909 --> 01:08:21.270 we won't go into them now but i think it's a 01:08:21.270 --> 01:08:23.470 whole other podcast about the things children 01:08:23.470 --> 01:08:25.930 might be doing on their screens that really they 01:08:25.930 --> 01:08:28.229 absolutely should not be doing it's not okay 01:08:28.229 --> 01:08:30.350 then to do it for 30 minutes a day you should 01:08:30.350 --> 01:08:32.270 have been screen time doesn't address that either 01:08:32.779 --> 01:08:35.140 yeah do we know what our children are doing and 01:08:35.140 --> 01:08:37.359 using the screens for i suppose is the first 01:08:37.359 --> 01:08:39.479 question and then how can we use that as an opportunity 01:08:39.479 --> 01:08:43.159 to connect and how can we if inappropriate can 01:08:43.159 --> 01:08:45.739 we research a safer way of them accessing those 01:08:45.739 --> 01:08:48.239 things getting the same joy out of it but without 01:08:48.239 --> 01:08:51.380 the without the danger Amazing. So helpful. And 01:08:51.380 --> 01:08:53.640 yeah, it's amazing. If you want to hear more 01:08:53.640 --> 01:08:56.060 from Naomi, then head to her website and she's 01:08:56.060 --> 01:08:58.539 got some most incredible courses that are so 01:08:58.539 --> 01:09:01.119 accessible as well. So yeah, definitely head 01:09:01.119 --> 01:09:02.819 over to there. I've got the link in the description 01:09:02.819 --> 01:09:04.359 below if you would like to check that out. Thank 01:09:04.359 --> 01:09:06.579 you so much for joining me. Thank you, Jordan, 01:09:06.619 --> 01:09:08.359 for inviting me. It's been lovely to talk to 01:09:08.359 --> 01:09:08.520 you.