Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education
teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything
communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson
ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged
4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in
the field answering your questions and sharing
our knowledge and experience working alongside
our beautiful young people. Let's get started.
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today. Now to the episode. Hello everybody and
welcome to the Sensory Classroom podcast. My
name is Jordan and today I'm joined by Dr. Naomi
Fisher who is a clinical psychologist, EDMR trainer
and author of several books. She specializes
in autism, trauma and alternative education and
I'm so excited to speak to her about screen time
today. Hello Naomi. Hi Jordan and thanks for
inviting me and I'm just going to correct you
it's EMDR not EDMR and everybody makes that mistake
all the time. So what is it? EMDR. EMDR. Oh my
god I've even got that written I've even said
it wrong. It's really easy to do and I don't
know why. What does it stand for? So it stands
for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing
and it's a type of psychological therapy. It's
a trauma therapy basically. So I have lots of
different specialities. I often say I have these
different channels that run through my life.
And at the time, I thought I had lots of different
specialisms. And now it's kind of worked out
that... It's all come together. So I'm an EMDR
specialist, which means I do trauma. I'm a trauma
therapist. I work with people who've experienced
trauma, but I also specialize in autism and particularly
working with autistic children, young people
and their families. And I actually did that before
I trained as a clinical psychologist. So clinical
psychologist, just for people who aren't clear,
because often people aren't, is that I'm not
a psychiatrist. So I'm not a medical doctor.
have a doctorate, which is why I'm Dr. Naomi
Fisher, but I specialize in behavior and mental
health. So I'm not using medical methods to help
people. I'm using talking and EMDR in my case.
And I actually decided to PhD in autism before
I did my clinical training. So I have kind of
had an interest in autism. dating back to university,
actually, all the way through. But then I've
also specialised in trauma and I worked in the
NHS as a trauma therapist for quite a long time.
And then in 2018, I stopped working in the NHS
and I've been in private practice ever since.
And now, and I also have an interest, which again,
kind of, I thought initially was separate, but
now has merged in alternative education. And
that really came about. actually because I home
educated my own children when they were really
young. And I was so naive when I started home
education. I didn't realise that, of course,
lots of children who struggle with the education
system are going to end up being home educated
because their parents can't find another way
forward for them. When I did my PhD, I visited
children with learning disabilities and autistic
children all over London and I visited them all
at school. I contacted schools. I recruited children
through schools. I visited so many special schools.
And then it never occurred to me that actually
a lot of these children wouldn't be at school.
They would be home educated. And I think that's
increasingly been the case. So when I home educated
my own children, I suddenly met all these children.
And I was like, oh, this is where you are. This
is where you are. And also you're completely
missing from the research because it would not
have occurred to me. And I've thought about myself
as a... So I see myself as a developmental psychologist
in my training and I've learned about how brain
children develop and learning and educate and
all that kind of thing. And I thought, you know,
I did so much learning about developmental psychology
and nobody ever said, you know what, this is
development in the context of school that we're
talking about. We're only really talking about
child development for children who spend 30 hours
a week every week in a school environment. It's
like that's invisible to us. And so I was seeing
these home educated children. I was saying, oh,
wow, actually things that look quite different
when you're not at school. And of course, it's
obvious that things look quite different when
you're not at school. It's a lot of time not
to be doing something different. But it's like
this invisible factor in developmental psychology
or in how we think about childhood in general.
Yeah, it's just assumed, isn't it? Of course,
children are at school. And it wasn't until my
children weren't at school that I was like, oh.
Maybe there's something really important that
needs to be said here. So my first couple of
books are actually about home. Well, they're
about alternative educating outside the school
system. And there's one particularly about neurodivergent
children being educated outside the school system
and what that looks like, because often families.
kind of pushed into home education because they
can't find an appropriate setting or they can't
get an EHCP or, you know, you know the whole
story of why people can't get the right kind
of education for their child. So they're kind
of pushed into home education. And then everybody
tells them that this is going to be a disaster
and that their children desperately need to be
at school. I worked with one parent who was told
by their pediatrician, they said, we're going
to home educate. And their pediatrician said,
well, you're going to ruin their life and your
life. I mean, What a thing to be having held
over you. I mean, it is such a big ask. I've
been on both sides of this, actually. I'm a foster
carer, disabilities foster carer. And we were
looking after a boy for 10 or 11 months. And
he was out of education for all of that time,
bar six weeks. He just knew what to do. Well,
he wanted to know that the school was concrete,
is what he wanted. Because this was his eighth,
ninth school. He was 11 years old. So he wanted
to know they were concrete. So he would do things
purposely to know, like, are you going to let
me down too? That's where it was coming from.
But he would purposely do these things. So he
knew in six weeks, you know, he knew how to test
them and they were tested and didn't pass his
test and he was out again. So yeah, I have, I
wasn't teaching at that time. I was, you know,
full -time foster carer for him. And so, yeah,
I've seen it both sides. Slightly different being
a foster carer, but you know, we felt incredibly
isolated. I was also incredibly passionate about
him having high, you know, good quality alternative
education. But it's hard being the parent, the
social worker, the teacher, the everybody, wearing
so many hats. Yeah. It got muddy, honestly. It
does. Absolutely. You're juggling so many different
things. I'll bet even more as a foster carer.
But also, you're juggling all those roles while
often being told by other people that you're
doing the wrong thing. You know, I mean, if a
child's excluded from school, at least, I mean,
I know there are not many good things about being
excluded. But one good thing is that it is the
school who has said no. Whereas in many cases
of the children who I work with, the child has
been saying no for a long time. And the parents
have been told you must insist. You must force
them. And maybe not even verbally. They might
be showing no through their behaviours, through
their mental health, through their burnout. Exactly.
I worked with one girl. And she had stopped talking
and stopped eating. Oh, I hate it. And she was
a very articulate child and she was situationally
mute at school, but also she had become unable
to eat and was on a liquid diet at age eight.
And her parents made the decision, OK, this is
not something we can carry on with. We're going
to take her out. But everybody says. you're that's
a terrible decision how can you do that and I
think that's really difficult to hold you're
working you're working so hard to do what's right
for your child and nobody's saying great well
done go for it you're doing a massive amazing
job there so that was what I was trying to do
actually in my first couple of books I was trying
to say look this is a massive decision you've
you know this is a really brave decision to have
taken it's a sacrifice it's a huge sacrifice
yes people give up their careers people i mean
yeah and their respite everything everything
absolutely and only to have other people saying
well i wouldn't do that or you know aren't you
worried about gcses yeah yeah yeah so actually
it's that decision isn't made lightly you know
i've gosh i've had friends that have made a similar
decision and it is months or years of should
i but what if but what if but what if and if
they're if they can't ask their children either
like if their children yeah are showing signs
of not being happy but not able to have that
articulate it no yeah not able to have that conversation
of do you really know what this means you know
yeah they're having to have the They're holding
the whole thing. I know. And they're worried
that maybe in years to come, the child will look
at them and say, why didn't you make me go to
school? And I'm a huge advocate in alternative
education and home education. I think it is fantastic,
regardless of whether it is really, really needed
in what we're talking about or just wanted. Yeah,
that's fine too. luxury absolutely yeah but i
don't think it should be because of the failure
of counties and the government like i just don't
i just don't think that's fair i think these
children deserve the education that suits them
that honors them that where they can thrive and
be educated and if a parent then chooses to want
to Awesome. That's awesome. It should be a choice.
That's the thing. And for lots of parents, it's
not a choice. It isn't. It's not a choice at
all. And it's so unfair that the EHCP is funding,
you know, all of that funding and everything
has gone. I know. You know, the kids in my class,
it's tens of thousands that they get from the
government for their education to cover one -to
-ones, to cover therapies, to cover the room,
to cover the teaching, to cover the provision.
Everything is gone. Yeah. Because it... they
you know they couldn't meet the needs of the
child it just doesn't seem fair at all I think
and I think it does come down to the way that
most people don't understand home education unless
they've been really like I would count myself
among that I absolutely didn't understand home
education until we were doing it and I don't
you don't understand who these parents are and
I think it's clear from The government says that
they just, I don't know who they think home educators
are, but they absolutely don't think that these
are responsible parents taking the best decision
that they can in the circumstances who are actually
taking an enormous cost away from the system
in order to do it. Costing more than just financial
as well. Costing their relationships. Oh, cost
on every level. Every level. Cost in energy,
cost in, you know, I've had families that have
lost their external family support network because
they haven't agreed with the decisions they've
made. You know, such a cost. Yeah. Yeah. And
then to be kind of portrayed as if this is a
feckless decision or if you're not doing the
best for your child or it's, you know. gentle
parenting yes exactly too permissive or i saw
some some articles saying oh no it's because
now that parents work from so many more parents
work from home that you know when that it's much
easier for them to keep their children at home
and i was like clearly you have never worked
from home with a child because i can tell you
it is not easy to work for it is not easier to
work from home if your child is happy in school
you would much rather be working at home with
your child at school Yeah, because I suppose,
yeah, the thing is that if they're not happy
at school, you're constantly being brought in
to come and collect them. You're constantly coming
in for meetings. And it is so much stress and
pressure that I can totally see why the parent
is like, why are we doing this? Absolutely. And
also it becomes impossible to hold down a job,
doesn't it? That's the thing. One parent I talked
to, she's got three boys. I think they're all
autistic. And she said, I would get into work,
I would sit down and then there'd be a phone
call from the school and they'd say, can you
come in? He's on the port -a -cabin roof again.
And she said, my employer said, you're going
to have to choose between taking the calls from
school or keeping the job. And she's like, well,
there's no choice. Yeah, that isn't a choice.
There's no choice. So now she has no job. I'm
also really, I mean, this might be a quite sexist,
feminist thing for me to say, but I also feel
like it often falls, and not always, but it often
falls on the women to pick up that free labour.
Which I'm also really passionate about. You know,
as two, we're very highly educated women. We
are so passionate about our jobs. We do such
good work. That would be a huge loss to society.
It's absolutely women. I agree. It was the mental
load. I think women take it on. But women have
it put upon them all the time. There's the assumption,
isn't there, that your job, you can put that
aside and go in. that'll always be all right.
Yeah, that's not fair either. No, it's definitely.
I mean, out of the people who follow me on my
Facebook page, they're 95 % female, which I think
is quite indicative of itself, of who's doing
this work, this invisible work. I always say
the invisible work of parenting. Unpaid, undervalued,
and you only get noticed when it goes wrong.
You know, if it's going well, everybody's like,
why are you making such a fuss? You know, they're
doing absolutely fine. I'm sure in the moment
it goes wrong, it's like, oh, you haven't got
to get that child under control. Yeah. Yeah.
The mental load of it all. And I'm really passionate
about that. I'm so encouraging of women, you
know. doing what they where their passions lie
where they thrive and that can look like so many
different things you know maybe women do thrive
not working and home educating their children
amazing do that I wish that so much for you but
also like I also want you to be a doctor if you
want to be yeah exactly it should be okay to
say no that isn't the right thing for me as well
as yes this is the right thing for me yeah absolutely
we've got to talk about screen time I was I was
gonna say i was recommended you this is why i
really wanted you here i'm so pleased um that
you could be here we i had a question so lots
of my audience are women and they are the most
incredible women they could be teaching assistants
teachers senkos and mothers but lots of them
95 saying it are women and i get lots of questions
asking the most questions and one was about screen
time so it was a teacher with TAs who didn't
agree with her. And she said, this one child
is eating lunch and is used to watching Peppa
Pig on the whiteboard whilst they eat. And the
TA said, well, he has to, it's better that than
eating. And she wasn't comfortable with that
and wanted to know what I thought about it. Okay,
so the TA wants him to be able to watch Peppa
Pig and she thinks that he should be... No. Yes,
yes, yes. Sorry, yes. The TA wants him to watch
Peppa Pig because better that than him not eating.
Yeah, yeah. And she said he gets really overexcited
and overstimulated watching it. It could be dangerous,
you know. Sometimes he paces around whilst watching
it and that could be seen dangerous and she wanted
an alternative. And without me saying what I
answered, I would love... to hear your thoughts
is because in the comments below, your name came
up three, four, five times. So I'd love to hear
one, why people are linking you with this topic
and what your thoughts are on this particular
question, really. Wow. Okay. So that's a, you've
given me a big question and a small question
together. Sorry. So I'd like, I'd like to start
off by saying, I think that the concept of screen
time has led us in an unhelpful direction. as
a society I think there's a lot of focus on time
amount of time a child spends on a screen and
I remember this from when my own children were
small panic about how much is all right when
they're this age and how much is okay when they're
this age and even then I was thinking this doesn't
quite make sense to me as a psychologist because
a screen is only a sheet of glass right that's
it and Why are we putting everything that is
done through this sheet of glass together and
calling it screen time? We don't do that with
other stuff. We don't say reading, writing, drawing,
all paper time. Better put that together and
limit how much paper time they have. Or, you
know, sofa time. Things we do on the sofa. We
only really do that with screen time. And I think
that has had a detrimental effect. on lots and
lots of levels. But one way I think it's had
a detrimental effect is I think parents are highly
anxious about screen time, teachers as well.
And that can prevent them from really thinking
about what is this child actually doing here?
And is it a problem or not? Because we think
it's done through a screen, it must be a problem.
And I do think we have to get much more nuanced
because I think there are things that children
do on screens which are not good for them and
which... can raise safeguarding issues and all
sorts of things. And I think we have to be really
on that. But I think there are also lots of things
that children do on screens, which are really
beneficial for them, particularly autistic children,
children with special educational needs, but
actually all children, I think. And because we've
lumped it all together, we've got this kind of
fear of all of it. That fear has a few impacts.
One of the impacts it has is that often parents
actually don't know very much about what their
children are actually doing on a screen because
they're just like, screen time, waste of time.
One parent I talked to, her little boy had strict
screen time limits. I think it was 30 minutes
a day or something. And I said to her, what's
he doing in those 30 minutes? She said, I have
no idea. I don't want to get involved. And I
was like, well, that's a real missed opportunity.
Because... Actually, what children do on screens
is vastly different. And there are amazing things
that you can do on a tablet, particularly a child
with learning disabilities can do on a tablet
that they cannot do in any other context because
it reduces barriers. You know, it becomes the
most, I see loads of children for whom something
they do on the tablet is the most complex thing
that they can do. They can play, they can build
houses. You can like Minecraft, one of my favorite
games of all time. It's so fantastic. It's an
amazing game. You can build. amazing things in
minecraft and you are much less limited by any
motor problems you might have than say lego which
requires really quite a lot of fine motor skills
and for a child with disabilities they can access
that joy of making stuff and things even if they
don't have the fine motor skills that they might
need to build Lego or something. And actually
that happens on so many levels that I see children
who are able to play with other children in something
like Minecraft when they really struggle to play
with other children in the outside world. because
there you've just again you reduce the barriers
like you can be playing with other children and
you can be at home with your mum and they might
be at home with their mum and so you can the
parents can really help facilitate that process
and i've heard some amazing conversations between
children playing something like minecraft or
another game And you're like, wow, there's so
much negotiation and stuff that's going on here.
And I just don't think they would be able to
manage that if that was in the quotes real world.
So that's kind of one area. And also the other
thing about it is I think that this kind of fear
of screen time creates a disconnect between adults
and children because lots of children, particularly
those with special needs. what they do on their
screen is what they love most. That's where they
feel most confident. It's where they feel most
themselves. It's where they feel really good
about themselves. And for a child who struggles
with school, life, academic stuff, it's really
important that they have a place where they feel
good about themselves. And I see that again,
I'm going to use the example of Minecraft again.
You know, in Minecraft, you can be, you are in
control of your own world. You are the person
who can make things happen. You can grow stuff.
You can breed animals. You can make, you know,
you make these things happen. And if you think
of how so many children with learning disabilities
or with other needs, they don't have many experiences
in their life where they're the person who makes
things happen and can see what they do and can
like, I want to do that. I'm going to do that.
Nobody's going to stop me. I'm going to do it.
They need help all the time. You know what I
mean? They always need support. This is an area.
where maybe they don't need that. And that, I
think, is actually magic. I think that's just
really important. Yeah. So I think there are
some really important developmental experiences
that our children can get through, particularly
video games, but other screen things as well.
And if parents see screen time as bad, then they're
going to disconnect themselves from that. So
I talked to the father of one autistic seven
-year -old, and he said, he said, I'm a gamer.
He said, I love playing video games. But my son
loves playing video games, but I never play them
with him because I don't want to encourage him.
And I was like, you've had such a strong message
there that your child shouldn't be playing lots
of video games that you've completely not. You
can't connect with him over it. It would be such
a perfect way of connecting with each other.
That's what I said. I said, it's okay. You know,
go and play video games with him. Because they
could be side on side, couldn't they? They don't
have to give eye contact. They're talking about
the game. It's the perfect icebreaker. It's perfect.
Exactly. And also, if you, well, no, hopefully
he now is playing video games with his son. Because
I said, go and play video games with him. But
also, if you become the person who... blaze those
things with your child, if you become the person
who does that kind of thing with them, rather
than the person who tries to stop them doing
that sort of thing, you can expand their world
through it. So when I meet children whose parents
are very anti -screen time and very controlling
about screen time, typically those children are
playing quite low quality games or Because they're
playing the free games, which are just the worst
games. So it's not valued. No, it's not valued.
And it's just like the parent is just seeing
it as, or they're just watching very repetitive.
Yeah, exactly. The parent sees it as a waste
of time. So they don't invest anything in it.
So the first thing that I usually suggest to
parents in that situation is find out what they're
playing. Find out what they're doing. Sit next
to them if they'll let you. Have a look at what
they're doing. If you can, get a device yourself
and join them if you can. And then think, how
can I improve the quality of what they're doing?
You know, if they are playing the free games,
they are terrible. They're designed to frustrate
you, annoy you, and they haven't got any gameplay
ability. But sometimes children are very attached
to them. So I would say Google things that like
those games. but are a proper game, a game with
playability. And really, you do want to be looking
for things you pay for. Always say, pay for it
upfront. It's much better than being constantly...
Yes, exactly. Asked for money to do this. And
try and create. You can create on a device, basically
a high quality experiences device. And then as
a parent, you can feel happier about that time
because you're like... Actually, I know that
they are building worlds or they are making stop
-motion animation or they're writing stories.
They do so many things. And I suppose the more
you know about it, the less fearful you're going
to be about it because you'll understand it more,
won't you? You'll see the benefits rather than
you'll just see this child that gets really dysregulated
when you come off it and actually it becomes
a barrier between your relationship, a battle.
People, parents have a kind of visceral response
to a child on a screen, don't they? Like I quite
often on my Facebook page post pictures of a
child on a screen. Almost always there will be
a couple of comments which say, oh, Jane, you
chose that photograph. You know, wouldn't it
be best to choose a picture of a child, you know,
doing real playing? And there's this division
between real play and screenplay. And I think
it's really unhelpful. And actually, I know I'm
going on a lot before I even get to Peppa Pig,
but. For autistic children in particular, I think
play in the real world can be quite hard for
them to access. And one of the things I noticed
when I started spending a lot more time around
home -educated children and looking at children
and how they developed over time was that there
are a lot of autistic children who did... exactly
what the diagnostic criteria sort of say that
autistic children do, which is that they didn't
play imaginatively in the same way when they
were really young. So like, you know, three,
four, five typically developing children might
be doing lots of pretending that this is this
and playing tea parties and mummies and daddies
and all that kind of thing. Autistic children
tend to be doing less of that. But what I saw
in the children that I met was that a lot of
those children were at the ages of, say, eight.
nine or ten were starting to play imaginatively
through something like minecraft because minecraft
is essentially a role -playing sandbox you you
go and act out roles and you are but open isn't
it it's totally open exactly it's like a set
of toys really you know when we set up a set
of toys for a child in the real world we think
that's good parents have really bought into the
idea imaginative play is good small world play
is good dress -up play is good but when a child
does very similar kinds of play but in minecraft
parents tend to say it's not it's not good it's
not real it must be limited and i think it's
as a psychologist i'm like it's imaginative play
both kinds are imaginative play and this I can
see that this kind of imaginative play is accessible
for lots of children for whom actually the more
traditional imaginative play wasn't accessible,
but we don't value it. I guess it takes away
the barriers for lots of the children. Lots of
the children would want to still keep control
because they're a bit anxious about giving up
that control. So if they've got their own controller
and they can choose where they go in their world,
they can play alongside a friend. Yeah. Even
if they're not in the same room, they can play
alongside a friend, but they still keep that
control. So I can totally see why that reduces
that barrier massively, which enables them to
do that. And the expectations. I think, no, I
think it's really true. And I think the expectations
are lower as well. Like, you know, I don't know
if you've ever seen these, but people sometimes
post things on social media where it's like setting
up little invitations to play for children. You
know, so like you'll set up. Yeah, exactly. Like
a snow landscape or something. And it never works
that way. It never works. The children never
want to do the thing. But also when I look at
those, I'm like, this is so adult led. It's,
you know. It's got this idea of free imaginative
play, but actually the adult has decided. It's
decided that these animals play here. It's very
tidy and very neat. Exactly. It's neat and tidy
imaginative play. It's beautiful on Instagram
and Pinterest or whatever, but it... When you
come to real children, it's like those stay and
plays, isn't it? When children are really small
and you go to stay and plays and there's like
the water corner and the sand corner and the
small world corner. And what the children really
want to do is mix up the water and the sand and
put the small play into it and make the most
almighty mess. Yeah. But that is frowned upon.
Well, I love the EYFS teachers that... but that
embrace that and embrace that yeah it was i had
a post maybe last year actually and i said the
one thing that i'd always been envious of eyfs
teachers for is that they can have those beautiful
role play areas and beautiful pathways and all
of the comments were no we can't yes no real
children real children don't play that way it's
it's like we've got this kind of mindset of adults
of this is what imaginative play should be like
And we're imposing it on children. It's like
we've standardised it. I think we forget, don't
we? We're so rigid in our thinking. We kind of
lose that fluidity of what can be, will be. And
we kind of get so stuck in our expectations of
it. And then we put that on them. Yeah, we want
them to be doing something, a particular kind
of play, where it's a particular kind of play
which like hits our button as, yes, good play.
Yeah, good parenting. Yes, it really is. It's
imaginative play of a particular type without
too much mess, without mixing everything together,
without, yeah, it is. It's very orderly play.
And actually, if you think about barriers again,
with a lot of play, a big barrier for many autistic
children. all children with special needs or
just young children is setting stuff up and clearing
it away again. You know, often if a child will
say, I'd like, if they want to play with whatever,
dolls or something, the barrier of actually having
to go and get out those toys and put them out
could be enough that they don't want to do it
anymore because actually they can't quite manage
that bit of setting up. And then often, of course,
we saw you do this in schools. Everybody is taught
to do this with their small children. afterwards
you make them tidy it up you're like it's tidy
up time so triggering and yes so you've got two
big barriers there and a savvy child i've met
several savvy children who are like you'd be
like would you like to play with this and they'd
be like no i don't want to tidy it up so you
say okay so we have created an adult barrier
here with this expectation that you're going
to tidy up and that we have to teach you how
to tidy up no tidying up in my craft yes no no
setup so there are so many barriers that it's
just there and you can just stop whenever you
want and you can leave it however and nobody's
going to come and mess it up afterwards because
that's the other thing that happens in the real
world isn't it you have your play just exactly
how you want it and it turns out it's on the
dining room table Yes. Or your parent. Yes. It's
time to clear up now. And your world is destroyed.
I actually know quite a few families whose homes
become increasingly limited as they cannot get
rid of stuff. Lego in particular. You build an
amazing Lego thing and then it has to stay like
that for the next three years. Anyway. Add PDA
to that as well. So that's another barrier. Totally.
The parents or teachers having the expectation
that a child will play with a certain thing in
a certain place in a certain time. The barriers
to that for a child with PDA is unbearable to
even imagine, isn't it? Of course they're going
to not want to play with that. The demand of
that is huge. And also if you think you're doing
it wrong and you're worried about that. I mean,
yes, in some ways I think maybe someone, well,
I think some of the reasons why maybe children
with PDA. like screen so much is because there
are so few demands attached to them like nobody
is interested which is i don't think a great
thing in the longer term but there's that yeah
definitely yeah but there's also what you were
talking about with your peppa pig example so
the other so i think we have to think way beyond
time with screen time we have to think about
what is this child actually doing what is the
function of what they're doing and is that something
that is good and we can get alongside with and
encourage with them Or is it actually a problem?
And the example of Peppa Pig is a really interesting
example because for some children, having their
attention on two things at the same time can
make it easier to do something. And actually,
this is part of EMDR, which is really strange.
So the therapy I do is all about dual attention.
So actually, when you're helping someone process
their trauma, you get them to think about the
traumatic thing that happened. And then you get
them to do something else at the same time. So
we actually just use eye movements or tapping.
So it's quite a basic thing. But actually with
autistic children, they'll often be playing something
on an iPad whilst we sort of address the trauma.
And this dual attention, we don't know quite
how it works in EMDR, but it seems to sort of,
it enables us to process information in a slightly
different way. is what I think happens. And I
think for a child who's highly anxious about
something, having something else that they can
focus on can just take away the demand enough
so that they can manage something like eating.
And I think you'll probably find a lot of parents
will say that their children eat much better
if they are not all sitting around the table,
for example, with everybody. Again, that's so
much pressure. Or are you going to have another?
Are you going to have this? Are you only eating
that? Oh, don't you want a bit of this? Pressure,
pressure, pressure. Or say please. I'm like,
don't make them say please. I know, that will
be gone. Yes, please and thank you. All just
pressure. And actually, the moment you've got
that device there, you've taken the pressure
off because now it's... that's okay we're doing
that and that means it's more safe the ipad has
never asked them something that it can't do they
can't do you know they are in control of it so
of course they're going to opt for that over
a social demand pressure from an adult or their
peers exactly and it can also be a familiarity
thing so i think when you have children who like
to watch the same thing over and over again because
sometimes when i talk to parents about this they'll
say well i can see the value in minecraft but
what my child wants to do is they want to watch
the same videos again and again and again and
i just can't see what they're getting out of
it um i was talking to a parent actually it was
um yeah i was talking to a parent recently who
was talking about her son really liking computerized
marble runs Apparently there are videos on YouTube
of computerised marginal. They're really satisfying
to watch. Have you seen them? Yeah. No, I haven't.
She told me that I should watch them. They're
really satisfying. So I think, and I think with
things like that, we have to think, okay, not
everything a child does has to be learning or
educational. Some things that children do on
their devices, particularly autistic children,
but probably loads of other children too. I just
know more about autistic children. can be soothing,
can be familiarity, can be safe. breathe out
you know i know where this is while this is going
and we kind of demonize that as well like i've
had parents say you know my child when my child
gets really really unhappy about something the
only thing that will calm them down is watching
surprise ed videos on youtube but i don't want
them to do that because that's a prop and i don't
want them to have a prop for regulating their
emotions i'm like we all use props to regulate
our emotion all the time you know like squishies
or fidget toys they're all props there's nothing
that's inherently worse about watching computerized
marble runs than there is. Very safe, actually.
Yes, very safe. Much, much better than some of
the things that people do to regulate their emotions
as they get older, which might be things like
alcohol, drugs. And we have to be able to mention
that, right? There's always an alternative. I
mean, this is linked, but it kind of is. Whereas
I often also get messages about how to stop swearing.
And I think they need an outlet. What is the
alternative? Self -harm, hurting others, running
away, you know, really safe. It is probably one
of the safest ways. And ripping work is another
one. it's so safe to be able to like exhaust
that emotion of anger frustration whatever it
is let them rip paper you know but it's just
it's linked isn't it because it's like actually
there needs to be an alternative we can't just
lock it all up that isn't safe we know we all
know that we don't have to be a clinical psychologist
to know that locking emotions away is not safe
so no so if they're not going to show it in those
ways then We have to ask ourselves, well, how
else are they? And actually, is this the safest,
most appropriate way they have available to them?
And is it a completely functional way to manage
your emotions? And I sometimes feel that we have
these expectations for children. I think when
we put them into a school environment, we take
away a lot of the things, a lot of the ways that
us as adults actually regulate our emotions.
So, for example, I find being in a classroom
for more than about an hour with somebody talking
at me, intolerable honestly I just get to the
point where I'm just I can't do this anymore
and if I'm at a conference and I have to do this
obviously it doesn't happen to me in the same
way anymore but if I if I'm at a conference or
a training I'll do things like stand up out of
my chair I might stand at the back I might do
a bit of stretching I'll go to the toilet just
to get myself a bit of just to regulate myself
because I just stop being able to process if
I'm sitting in that chair for too long listening.
Or I start doing things like playing on an iPad,
taking notes. Yeah, you do. We all do those kind
of things because it's actually a difficult situation
for us. And yet with children. We mark all of
those things as bad behavior. We take away all
their attempts to regulate themselves. And I
think one of the things that I do really see
with children who are out of school environments
or who are in very, very free school environments,
and this is particularly autistic children again,
is that they learn. They learn how to regulate
themselves in a different way. Like they learn,
for example, I really need to go out and run
around right now. They don't necessarily say
that, but they're like, need to go or they learn
I need to bounce for a while now you know whereas
the child who's been kind of boxed in and it's
been like well you can have 15 minutes movement
break every morning but we decide when that is
and you know you go and do it they don't have
a chance to learn those skills. I definitely
see that in relation to my class who on paper
are academically way behind the main their mainstream
peers that are in the same school but my goodness
are they so much better at reading and regulating
their bodies yeah mainstream yeah i see mainstream
like like you could just see they're about to
explode yeah when we're walking down the corridor
and my kids are flappy and tiptoeing walking
they just know what to do And they really are
experts in reading their body. So I definitely
see that firsthand. That's really interesting.
And I think that's so valuable because those
are skills which we completely undervalue in
the school system. Because we, you know, it's
one of the things I often think about is carpet
time. You know, small children, four and five
year olds, we sit them on the carpet, cross -legged,
really uncomfortable, scratchy carpet, right
next to the other children. and you have to stay
there, it's basically, it's like an exercise
in repression. We're setting them up to fail
as well, aren't we? We are, because when they
move, it's bad. Whereas actually, what we need
to be doing is appreciating that some of them
need to do headstands and roll around, and some
of them need to put their hands over their ears,
and that's their... They're learning how to regulate
themselves. I suppose it comes from needing,
because they've got one adult maybe and 32 children.
It's control and compliance, isn't it? If they're
all rolling around, we can't have that. Therefore,
they all need to be sitting. And I feel that's
the danger, isn't it? Is that fear of losing
control. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. And it is
also, it's interesting, it's this mix. I think
there's often a... kind of strange mixture in
children where we confuse being controlled with
self -control. A control, you know, so people
will often say they have to develop self -control.
And what they mean is they have to do what I
tell them. So, you know, self -control would
mean being able to sit quietly on the carpet,
for example, when you are told to do so. But
that isn't actually self -control at all. That
is being controlled. self -control is something
like knowing I can't actually sit on this carpet
anymore because it's really making me uncomfortable
and I need to wriggle and move my body that self
could you don't know me there's a and that will
help me feel better and that's what you're seeing
in your kids who aren't being forced to sit on
the carpet because because there is something
about being less academically able which enables
people to start to think a bit differently about
education i mean unfortunately it takes that
all sensory beings we're all yeah people i mean
autistic or not we're all sensory beings but
there are autistic people in the mainstream school
that are incredibly academically able that are
just as sensory seeking or sensory avoiding as
the children in my class and it's just not seen
because they can read talk right and these are
the children these are the in -betweeners that
i'll end up being homeschooled or alternatively
educated because, yes, the school are meeting
their academic needs. Great. But they can't access
those academic lessons. Also, the cost to them
is so great. That's it as well. The cost to them
in terms of how they are after school, what the
impact on them, that's the problem, I think.
And unfortunately, there is no alternative that
is provided. Yeah. It's either you are academic
or you are, you know, send. Yeah. But you can't
be academic and sensory seeking. No. But I actually
think that it's a kind of like a Pandora's box
because I think it's a massive number of children
who fall into that box of the cost of what's,
you know, the cost of what is being done to them.
We just don't see it until it starts to, until
they're teenagers, really. And I think all the
way through teenage years, we see it. And then
we see it in young adulthood as well. And we
kind of see it. Do you think it's more obvious
because it shows up more against what they should
be doing? Whereas we expect three, four, five
year olds to be a little bit more wiggly, fidgety.
We allow for more. Yeah. Maybe. I think, well,
I think a lot of secondary schools are extremely
controlling. So the stories I hear about what
I call high control school environments, the
kind of schools where you have to walk in silence
in single file along the corridor. You have to
be sitting in your, you know, you have to come
into the classroom. There's no chat. You have
to sit down. You have to immediately do the task
that's written on the board. The kind of schools
where you get attention. It's becoming more.
It seems to over the last 10 years or so, it
seems to have really expanded. And I think those
kind of environments, you get more and more kids.
who cannot cope with that. You get kids who would
have struggled through a secondary school, more
like the secondary schools I went to, which were
quite controlling, but they were nothing like
that. And then these kids, you get more casualties,
basically. The way I see it is a lot of these
children are casualties of the school system
because the school system is not a place that
they can thrive. and they crash sometimes you
get faunas as well which is so common in females
where the school don't even see anything no the
school often don't see anything they are compliant
they get on they're model students yeah But the
parents see it. Yeah, absolutely. They see the
burnout, the meltdown. Yeah, the self -harm.
The self -harm through all sorts of different
ways. And yeah, it's just as damaging and just
as important to acknowledge. And they're also
the parents that are choosing to take their children
out. Out of school. They're not being believed.
No. No, exactly. And also they just, I think
they see the long -term impact. And I think it
gets to the point where parents are like, this
payoff isn't worth it. Because what school offers,
mainstream school, this I'm talking about here,
is really exam results. I think that's, unfortunately,
I don't think it should be like that. I think
education should be promising much more. But
I think at the moment, it's almost like a pick
that you have to make as a parent of, I will
put my child into this highly controlling environment,
which often I feel really uncomfortable about.
the payoff should be that they'll get good exam
results and they will have a future. Yes, yes,
it is. And sometimes it's put really explicitly
like that. Sometimes schools will say, you know,
yeah, basically follow our rules and they will
do well. So that puts, and parents get to the
point at some point where they're like, you know
what, it's not worth it. We can't put them through
this for this promise of sort of future that
might not even happen because. you might not
get those exam results. But also exam results
don't necessarily predict a glittering future,
do they? Or predict that you're happier. No.
And if a child can't even get into the exam because
they're so distraught and anxious, then it's
all worthless, isn't it? It is completely pointless.
Yeah. Yeah. And we put them under so much pressure.
Anyway, we've moved away from screen time again.
Should we go back to screen time? Of course.
I love it. This is what I love about these podcasts.
It's all important though and it is such an important
topic and I think it then will help others to
understand why we feel the way we do about screen
time and in this particular situation. I remembered
as well there was another part to the question
which I didn't add which was instead she wants
lunch to be an opportunity to teach communication.
Okay. So that was just another layer that kind
of like made this really important. So I think
I would say that Probably for this child at this
point, making lunch an opportunity to teach something
else is probably too far. And I think actually
all of us need a lunch break. And this child
is probably trying to be taught communication
all the time because that's what happens in school.
And I think the expectation that you then spend
your lunch break also being taught something
else that you find difficult is... potentially
the kind of thing that pushes that child over
hey you know i want a sandwich yes i don't have
to press that button point to that and guide
you to it in order to get myself i can tell you
know what i want you know exactly they wonder
why they're getting dysregulated yes well exactly
and when a child is hungry is the worst time
to try and make anything a teachable moment and
also to potentially make food dependent on that
talking about eating disorders before exactly
set it you've set something up where this child
has to do something has to do something differently
in order to actually have their food so you potentially
risk a situation where that child stops eating
and then you've got a hungry child all afternoon
nobody wins in that situation so i mean when
i talk to parents about eating it's always about
just let Just reduce barriers. You want this
child to be eating. If they're not eating, nothing
else is going to happen. It's like sleep and
eating. You need those things to be happening
or it does not matter what else you're going
to do because a hungry, tired child. They're
not going to learn anything. And speak to any
parent of a child with an eating disorder, whether
it's ARFID or other, which is so common with
autism. Regardless of academic ability, it's
very, very common. For exactly the reasons that
you've described, I think, and textures and all
of the things. There's so many barriers for autistic,
sensory people around food anyway. If you speak
to any of them. They would just laugh at you
if you think that you're going to add any more
barriers onto that. Because all they want is
their child to eat. You know, they don't care
if they're under the table with their 10 iPads
around them. joy and sing and dance yeah their
child eats of course they do that quietly somewhere
else so it wasn't pressure but yes but inside
you could tell these parents that are just like
oh my god they've just eaten like i know and
you know that's so interesting what you've just
said there as well about eating because a lot
of parents that i talk to of younger children
they often have a kind of idea in their head
of what meal times should look like a bit like
maybe this teacher has and it's everybody sitting
at the table having nice conversations together
and there are these studies that show that you
know families that eat together it's good for
you and all this kind of thing and it's a thing
to beat yourself up about really if you're not
achieving it family meals are something that
people think they should be doing and also of
course there's a whole thing about what they
should be eating and getting fruit and vegetables
and all that kind of thing there's so much stuff
around food and so usually When I meet a family
and they say things like, well, they'll only
eat chicken nuggets and they'll only eat it on
the sofa whilst watching their iPad. And I feel
terrible about it. And what, you know, how are
they ever going to learn any other way? And I
think it's often this kind of projecting into
the future that people get concerned about. They're
like, what if they're still doing this when they're
25? And, you know, that's possible. Some people
that will happen too. force our young children
into doing things that we would like them to
be doing as adults in case they don't do it as
an adult. Because right now, you just need to
think about eating right now. Because the more
you can reduce the pressure on that child right
here and now, the more they're going to learn,
the more life will be pleasant for everybody
and enjoyable. And that's really what you want
for their childhoods. You don't want to look
back on their childhood. We spent the whole time
fighting about whether they were going to sit
at the table or not. and why and I do know I
do meet parents I do meet quite a few parents
actually who have older teenagers and they will
talk about the difference between how those older
teenagers are and how they they were when they
were younger children and they'll be like I just
don't even hardly can't recognize the difference
you know so we had younger children who are devoted
to their devices, only want to play games, will
only eat if they're watching something, all that
kind of thing. And they'll be like, and now they'll
come and sit at the table with us. Growing up
is an amazing thing. It makes a massive difference
to everybody. No matter whether you have autistic,
special education needs, no matter what, growing
up makes a difference. And I suppose the less
pressure they've got around sitting at the table
and the less trauma they'll have around that,
the more likely they are to come. Exactly. The
more you make it, you must sit at the table.
The more likely you are that when they're teenagers,
they'll be like, no, I'm not doing that. And
it will have other adverse effects like it will
ruin your relationship between you and your child
or the trust or the bonds of the feeling understood
or feeling heard, you know. it will have huge
detrimental effects in other areas. Absolutely.
And I often actually draw the analogy between
food and screens because I say really what we
want for our children, I think, with both food
and with screens, is we want them to have an
uncomplicated relationship with them. We want
them to, with food, we want them to grow up thinking,
I'll eat when I'm hungry, I can choose what I
eat and I can stop when I've had enough. That's
really what I consider to be a healthy relationship
with food. I do the same with screens. I think
a healthy relationship with screens is I do it
when I want to, I choose what I do, and I stop
when I've had enough. And we know with food,
there's a lot more research with food, that if
parents get in there and start being very controlling
about... food, for example, having sugar bans
or all kinds of things like that, you can mess
up that child's relationship with food because
no longer are they eating biscuits, for example,
because they like biscuits. They're eating biscuits
because it's this special limited thing that
they're only allowed to eat on Sundays at three
o 'clock or whatever it is. And it's hidden away
the rest of the time. And so they start doing
things like going through the cupboards, looking
for the biscuits. You know, there's a whole sort
of set of behaviors that come into play. when
there's too much control around food. And I think
the same stuff happens with screens. If you're
too controlling around screens, your child will
start hunting out the iPad. They will start having
massive meltdowns when they don't get it. It
becomes this super special thing. And that isn't
going to be helpful for either food or screens.
You don't want them to be something special that
you can only have sometimes when you're really
good, for example. Yeah, because it becomes a
treat. Yes. And then as adults, they'll find
it difficult when they have got that adult around
them to like moderate that use. They will. I
suppose, I mean, foods as well, like foods and
screens are also created to sometimes be addictive.
Like it was certain foods and certain screens.
So it's about as adults modelling good, healthy
use of that as well. And a good, healthy use
means using it. Yes, exactly. But also putting
it down and adjusting that. So maybe we need
to start with ourselves and model that too. Yes,
and I think make it visible. One of the things
I often say is for autistic children in particular,
it's really helpful to make the invisible visible.
So things that you're doing, it's helpful to
tell them that you're doing it. So you might
say, I sometimes say this actually when I'm working
with children, I'll be like, oh, I've been spending
a bit too much time on Facebook. I'm going to
stop. And that's going to be tricky for me to
stop because I've got used to doing it. I don't
use the term addiction really with some screens
because I find that it's one of these fear -based
words. Again, with parents, it gets them really,
really anxious really quickly. And I think out
of all the children I have seen, autistic children
who are very, very devoted to their screens,
I can think of none for whom the term addiction
really fits. I don't think it's helpful. They're
attached to it. They love it. They feel safety
in that. It might be the thing they enjoy doing
most in the world, but that's not the same as
being addicted. And I'm not saying there aren't
some children who might not be addicted, but
I think we have a way overinflated fear of addiction
when it comes to screens. Would the difference
of that be that an... addiction would be you
want to stop and can't but yeah so there are
a few there are a few things that would make
something an addiction kind of on a psychological
basis but one would be that there are diminishing
joys so you enjoy it like if you think about
something like drug addiction for example you
take a drug for a high and then as you continue
to take it the highs are lower and lower and
lower and you can you need to take it anyway
because your body is now addicted to it but you're
not really getting anything out of it anymore
Whereas if you see a child who really loves Minecraft,
for example, they're getting loads out of it.
They're still getting loads out of it. And the
reason why parents are worried that they're addicted
is because when they say, I want you to stop
now, the children go ballistic and they think
that's a sign of addiction. And also because
of things like when the parents say things like,
you know, you can only play this for half an
hour a day, the children will do things like
prioritize that over everything else. You know,
so I've talked to parents sometimes who say,
well, we have rules that it's half an hour a
day and it has to happen before five o 'clock
in the evening so we have time to wind down.
And they say, and the effect of this is we can
never go out for the day because the child will
be like, are we going to be back before five?
Because if we're not going to be back before
five, so I get my half out, I'm not going, which
makes perfect sense. There's so much fear around
that, isn't there? Yeah. And they're like, oh
my goodness, they're addicted. Unpredictable,
yeah. But actually, it makes perfect sense. If
there's something you love doing, you're only
allowed to do it for half an hour a day between
certain times, you're going to prioritise that,
aren't you? And so hard if it's used as a treat
as well because then all day, one, it's put on
a pedestal as you've just said, but also what
does good look like? That can change every day.
And then I'd rather, and I see this in lots of
children, lots of children with PDA, but lots
of children in general, regardless of diagnosis.
I'd rather know I definitely wasn't going to
have it than it being hovered over me as a maybe.
So they purposefully do things. It's awful, actually.
For kids, for demand -avoidant kids, I think
that is the worst. Being in this state of, is
it going to happen? Is it not? It brings them
up into a frenzy of anxiety. And it's, as you
say, much better just to know, no. And for some
kids, actually, I sometimes, obviously, when
I work with parents individually. Like I'm very
nuanced. It's always I don't have a kind of blanket
set of you should be doing this. But with some
kids and some games, if they're playing a game
which they are really enjoying, but it clearly
is making them really unhappy. Like, you know,
some of these games are deeply frustrating or
they might be playing a game which clearly is
developmentally just a bit out of sync with what
they can manage. And they are furious all the
time. But at the same time, they love it. And
then then I will sometimes say to parents, you
know what? Actually, it's probably going to be
easier if you go cold turkey on that. game and
you're like i'm sorry it's going i'm gonna and
you find other games which are more suited to
them right now that give them that same give
them the same joy and they exactly and they will
probably go ballistic when you tell them sorry
this game's going but you might have to do it
because that might be the only way to do it but
what we were just talking about addiction i feel
i didn't finish what i was saying about addiction
yeah so there's diminishing returns but also
Yeah, the reward. It's not just making it a reward.
It's withdrawing it as punishment. So there are
two things which, as a psychologist, are bound
to make something more attractive to somebody.
You're basically forming associations in their
brain. If you make something a reward, you're
pairing it with approval, feeling good about
myself. It's like a gold star. There's nothing
about a gold star that is inherently rewarding.
It's just like a sticky... It feels really good
because it's been paired with good boy, good
girl. Like the green tick, like all those kind
of things. The green tick's exactly the same.
I'm proud of you. Well done. If you're pairing
screen time with that, the child's going to want
it more. Absolutely, they're going to want it
more. And then parents see that as addiction.
And then if you do the other thing, which is
because you behave so badly, I'm going to withdraw
your screen time and I'm going to take that away
from you. That does the same thing. So now you've
paired having it taken away with feeling bad.
And the more you pair those things together,
the more they're going to resist having it taken
away because it's now associated with being bad.
So there are quite a few things that... I think
we're pushed to do by this whole concept of screen
time and the way it's been sort of presented,
which then lead to this kind of behaviour which
parents see as addictive. And when they see it
as addictive, they tend to panic. And I suppose
these are only the first, maybe second generation
of parents that have had to even manage screen
time, but definitely the first generation of
parents have had to manage screen time in the
same way. So it's kind of like we're rewriting.
Totally. Individualized devices are the big thing
for this generation, aren't they? Yeah. But if
you think back, there was a lot of fear of TV.
Yeah. Actually, for our generation, it was all
about how are they watching you? Are they going
to get square eyes? And even though now parents
write in the books, you know, not the books,
like there are articles in things like the Daily
Mail about electronic babysitters, you know,
which I think is a really derogatory term. Again,
it just feeds that narrative, doesn't it? Totally.
You are a neglectful parent for letting your
child on this. Oh, I've seen people post like
photographs of children in restaurants with headphones
on and a device and basically condemning the
parents. And I'm like, that child is probably
only able to be there because of that device
and those headphones. But also, why do we have
this requirement of children that they should
come to a restaurant, behave in an adult way,
listen to boring adult conversations and just
be fine and be fine with that? It's like, again,
it's completely unrealistic and not something
we would expect of an adult. If you had an adult
who wasn't really interested in the conversation,
didn't really. didn't really like the food you
wouldn't expect them just to sit there and be
good would you but that's what we require children
like if even as a couple so i don't have children
but it's just me and my husband as soon as he
goes to the toilet or whatever yeah first thing
i do is get out my phone i'm gonna be sat there
just staring at a wall you need to be you need
to learn to tolerate boredom better jordan boredom
is good for you didn't you know like we just
put all this stuff on children and we're not
even able to do it ourselves are we no we're
not and also Again, we think of different things
in different ways, because like if you have a
child who brings out a book to distract themselves,
that is generally seen as quite good. You know,
that's a worthy thing to be doing. We like children
reading. But for children who can't read and
who may never learn to read even, then where
does that leave them? Why should they not also
have something interesting that they're allowed
to draw out that they have their own control?
Again, it's emotion regulation. And it's a functional
way of emotional regulating. It's much better
than running around the restaurant and smashing
plates. Or not feeling like you can go out as
a family. Which also could happen, yes. Absolutely.
Which does happen. To lots and lots of families.
Yes, exactly. Yeah. Ultimately, I suppose this
whole conversation from start to finish has been
about... parent guilt and just letting that go
and you knowing what's best for your child whether
that's you know keeping them in school removing
them from school whether that's screen time whether
that's food you know ultimately your gut will
be right as to what your child needs so I know
it's easier said than done but like it's the
other people's problem like it is not yours and
it is not your child's to bear that yeah I think
it's also about starting where your child is
and joining them where they are. So with that
child who's playing Peppa, who's watching Peppa
Pig, for example, I guess, you know, I would
be interested in what is it about Peppa Pig that
they get out of it? I'm interested that Peppa
Pig is overstimulating because frankly, Peppa
Pig is not one of the things that I generally
think of as overstimulating. There are some things
that children watch which might be rather exciting.
Yeah. I think like, I'm just imagining my, the
kids in my class, I don't know if this is, I
don't have a see how to see this child, but.
Maybe there's like, I don't know, Bing, for example,
you can go down a slide and splash in the water
and it's watching that over and over again. It's
like, it's quite emotive. It's quite exciting.
That's true. It is quite exciting. Yes, yes.
Now I see what you mean. But also it's okay for
a child to be, it's basically, again, it's about
being engaged with that thing, isn't it? You
know, if you are really engaged with a TV program
and I love watching kids who are really immersed
in what they're watching, they act it out. they
do it they live it and that's fantastic you know
because again it's this thing we talked about
how they'll they are they're following the bit
of their brain which is saying move move your
body follow this live in it get into it and for
so many children we we try and squash that we
think yeah you know even watching something should
be done properly you should sit still and it's
like you know Actually, the vast majority of
people, not everybody, but most people, as they
go through puberty and they become teenagers
and then adults, things like sitting still gets
a lot easier. Even if you have ADHD, it's a lot
easier as an adult than it is as a four and a
five -year -old. And yet we fear... for our four
and five year olds if we don't make them do it
now they'll never do it later and i think we've
just got that really wrong we need to really
just embrace that sort of childhood period for
what it is yeah Because it goes so quick. It
does. And once it's gone, you can't ever go back.
You know, when we were, people often say to me,
oh, aren't you worried about gaps? You know,
if we don't make them do things like sit at the
table, maybe, you know, aren't we going to, aren't
we going to regret later on that we didn't do
it now? And I always think the gap I'm most worried
about actually is not giving them the full time
to kind of play and... express themselves and
move and everything when they're children, because
actually you can never go back to that. So, you
know, if you have a 30 year old who isn't sitting
at the table for meals and you'd quite like them
to be, you can actually work on that at whatever
age you are. You know, there's no reason why
you couldn't do that with a 30 year old as opposed
to a five year old. But that 30 year old is not
going to be able to go back and be like a five
year old and play like a five year old. Like
we can't do that. Even if we wanted to, we can't.
we can't go and play in that way that young children
play again it's gone such a beautiful time it's
amazing yeah and it's sad that we can't go back
and do it again and we can pretend but we can't
you know that's why we fall into the kind of
jobs that we have fallen into to get the chance
to pretend my day looks like that yeah yeah but
it's different isn't it though you're not immersed
in it you're thinking about it you're developed
you're you're doing it for other people It's
not what you would naturally be doing, I'm guessing.
No, it is different. I do feel like adults should
find opportunities to play though. I totally
think we should. And actually video games is
a really good place to do that. Video games are
about the one socially acceptable place where
you can. play more as an adult because in an
adulthood the other kind of things that we call
play are usually highly structured things like
playing tennis or playing a board game you know
i mean we've like co -opted that word play to
mean following the rules actually or doing something
competitive doing well and actually It's not
that free, imaginative exploration. You can just
follow a lead, go wherever. It doesn't matter
whether you win or not. It doesn't matter how
skilled you are or not. And actually for parents,
when they've got a child who's really into video
games, I often say this is a really great opportunity
for you to be the newbie, for you to be the one
who isn't good at things, who can't work out
how it works, and for your child to be the competent
one. And that's so important for children who
don't get that opportunity. particularly important
for children with special needs who don't get
that chance in the rest of the world. They don't
get that chance to be the expert, but they can
be the expert in the game that they play. I think
adults find that really difficult. We find it
really difficult to not be able to do something.
Yes, we do. Or we give up really quickly or else
we say, you need to tell me what to do or I need
the instructions. But that's good too, isn't
it? It's good to remember what we are asking
these children to do. It's good to put ourselves
in that position of finding something difficult.
And certainly if it's putting them as the expert,
I love intensive interaction for that. My learners
can't play video games in the same way that some
of the children we've been talking about, but
they can stim or make vocal sounds that are incredibly
difficult for us to mimic. And I love trying
because ultimately they're the experts in that
and we can't. do that either but it's a beautiful
way of connecting just like you were saying it's
a beautiful way of connecting with them and and
honoring their expertise in whatever it is that
they are choosing to do yeah I have loved this
conversation I feel like we're gonna have to
have you back because I could speak to you for
hours this has been so exciting and I know I'm
going to be inundated with questions about how
to get children off of screen time so just prepare
Be prepared in the comments to answer all of
those for me. That would be great. Fine. Thank
you so much. The first thing there is shift your
priorities from getting them off it. Yeah. And
instead think about it, join them there. Use
them as an opportunity. It's an opportunity for
connection, not for disconnection. Love it. But
that doesn't mean that there aren't some things
where you're going to have to say, no, this actually
isn't the right thing for you. But I think you
gain power to do that. by joining them and actually
i think parents often fear that it's like all
or nothing it's like if i play stuff with them
then i have to also let them free in the world
of social media which i would not recommend i
don't think like you said right at the beginning
there are certain rules around screen time and
it's really important to and there are things
you need to be keeping an eye on and you need
to be aware of and actually i think the whole
blanket screen time thing acts against that as
well so it doesn't even work on that level because
actually if you are doing something on your screen
which is dangerous for you or which means that
you you know there are sorts there are things
we won't go into them now but i think it's a
whole other podcast about the things children
might be doing on their screens that really they
absolutely should not be doing it's not okay
then to do it for 30 minutes a day you should
have been screen time doesn't address that either
yeah do we know what our children are doing and
using the screens for i suppose is the first
question and then how can we use that as an opportunity
to connect and how can we if inappropriate can
we research a safer way of them accessing those
things getting the same joy out of it but without
the without the danger Amazing. So helpful. And
yeah, it's amazing. If you want to hear more
from Naomi, then head to her website and she's
got some most incredible courses that are so
accessible as well. So yeah, definitely head
over to there. I've got the link in the description
below if you would like to check that out. Thank
you so much for joining me. Thank you, Jordan,
for inviting me. It's been lovely to talk to
you.