Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education
teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything
communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson
ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged
4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in
the field answering your questions and sharing
our knowledge and experience working alongside
our beautiful young people. Let's get started.
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Hello everybody and welcome to the Sensory Classroom
podcast. My name is Jordan and today I am joined
by somebody that I think lots of you follow and
know of. It's Sarah Hall from Willow Sensory.
Hi Sarah. Hi. I really wanted you on because
I've been following you for some time now, maybe
five years. I really loved everything you were
doing through the pandemic, all your kind of
sensory story ideas. You always seem to find
the best ideas on the internet. I don't know
how you do it, but I get lots and lots of ideas
from everything you share on Facebook and yeah,
social media in general, really. Where do you
get your ideas from? Can we start there? Okay,
quite often they come from the people that I'm
working with. So someone likes something. like
a microfiber mitt, then that can become an alien
or a piece of grass or anything, some coral under
the sea. So it tends to come from them. One of
my favorite examples I use is the lady who liked
heavy things. So I filled a Pringles tube up
with compost and stones and things. She fancied
the dentist and he had a colour advert in the
free paper. So I cut that out and stuck it on
the outside. Anything to motivate? So it's not,
you know, it's not the sort of thing anyone else
will ever make. But it's quite often someone
does something and sort of like you or you get
ideas. Obviously, now with social media, it's...
I do spend a lot of time sort of like getting
ideas. So is it Inclusion Unlimited did Pringle
Tube painting. So you put a piece of paper in
the Pringle Tube and then the person shakes and
then you take it out and they've made a picture
by themselves. So I've got a man who loves to
shake. So in the sensory room, first of all,
we played with like the neon balls. Then we put
neon paint in them. Then we put them in the Pringle
Tube and I'd put like an outline, a black. black
card with a white outline of a zigzag Christmas
tree so when we took it out he'd made a Christmas
card so fantastic and completely independently
yeah so so there's loads of ideas online and
um yeah I get ideas I get ideas everywhere really
I think I do probably have quite a sort of sensory
sort of focus you know I could go in almost any
shop and you know, B &Q and they'd be like, you
know, guttering for rolling things down and sandpaper
for kinesthetic, you know, having sensory eyes.
Yeah, it's really hard to get rid of anything.
I'm going around the boot sales and looking on
Facebook marketplace and all these kind of things.
And yeah, you're exactly right. I can see opportunities
for learning in everything. Absolutely. It's
not great for my loft. No, no, my husband is
very tolerant. I do have a lot of stuff. So you
mentioned the people you work with. I suppose,
are you all right describing them a little bit
without, you know, giving, you know, obviously
without saying who they are. But you're all right
explaining a little bit about who it is you work
with? Yeah. Yeah. So I did, you know, about a
dozen years in special school. And then I set
up my business 21 years ago. And so it's open
to anybody. So babies to old people, absolutely
anybody and everybody. so yeah so I have a a
range of people come to me predominantly um with
PMLD and is that funded by parents or is that
kind of yeah yeah yeah I mean uh I have been
into schools to do things like um sensory days
um or play schemes and things um Which I just
want to say, which reminds me how hard a job
it is. And a big shout out to everybody out there
that's doing it. I mean, obviously, this is my
passion and I think it's great, great fun. But
I also do appreciate how hard it is. You know,
it's a lot easier for me, you know, sort of like
I do a sensory story, you know, with one lady
who's in a wheelchair, you know, and I line up
all my props in order that I'm going to use them.
It's like, oh, my God, that wouldn't happen in
a class. I'd be gone. It's funny, isn't it, when
people ask advice and then you have to remind
yourself, like, what the situation is that they're
using it in. You know, is it an early years classroom
where they've got 30 mainstream children and
maybe two, three SEND children? You know, what
is the setting? I suppose then that would make
a... advice a little bit very much so yeah i
mean we've just done some teacher training days
on children that aren't accessing national curriculum
but are in mainstream you know we've done some
this is with reach out asc up in preston and
we've been giving ideas of activities they can
do um you know sort of um using the equal semi
-formal curriculum but then After that, people
were asking, could they have one about just the
SEN kids in mainstream? So hopefully we're going
to do a course on that as well now. It's so needed.
I don't know any mainstream primary schools that
aren't calling out for this. support as there
are less special education schools as there is
more need I'm in Cornwall and we have two special
education schools in the whole of the county
and we are crying out for spaces and every single
mainstream school in our county is an SEN school
it just is we've got so much need in every school
in every class that every teacher is a SEND teacher
whether they've trained in it or not and they're
just crying out for any support and they want
to do what's best for the children they just
don't know what inclusion looks like And they're
scared to get it wrong. They're fearful that
they're not getting it right. And I think having
that kind of hands -on course training approach
might give them the confidence they need to know
how to do it. yeah they're probably doing it
you know right and how to access the curriculum
in their own way yeah i think there's a lot out
there to help with lots of the like formalities
of things and stuff but i haven't seen much out
there to say you know here's what you could be
teaching here's how you could be teaching it
here's a load of activities and ideas you know
here's um some sensory songs some sensory stories
you know here's some stuff that you could be
doing some practical hands -on activities that
we can share you know sort of so in one of the
sessions that that we did I think I put out about
90 sort of like activities for people to go around
and have a look and that was just in one of the
sessions wow I do tend to get carried away whatever
I'm doing. I do tend to get carried away. Because
that's, gosh, 90 ideas. That's months of ideas
for a teacher assistant or a teacher, isn't it?
I did a year of ideas as well that I just pegged
up on the entrance. But I'm also, I'm talking
at the Sending Early Years Conference next month.
Yeah, so again, sort of like, you know, wanting
to help people in mainstream. Hopefully that
will be a way in there to, you know, sort of
like tell people about some of the resources
that are out there that can help them. Yeah,
and it doesn't have to be expensive either, does
it? What are your kind of go -to cheap resources
that always seem to work really well? Oh, resources.
My favourite resource that I always talk about
is the A4 envelopes that you get from Amazon.
Yeah. So what I do with those is I'll get some
A4 label paper and print out a sticker, usually
something related to flying or wind or something
like that. So like a picture of an owl and then
you stick it onto the paper and you've immediately
got a skin sensation flapper. And what I've started
doing now is I used to seal them, but I started
now popping in either the poem inside or sticking
the poem on the back and then adding sometimes
some extra props. So there was a... chick one
so i'll put in some fluorescent feathers and
a uv torch inside the envelope so you've got
a little prop there as well as yeah as my thing
so because i always i've always in my sensory
room there's always been a piece of cardboard
just on the shelf yeah you know just you know
sort of and again i found that out you know i'd
taken out a kid from my class years and years
and years ago and he was struggling to wait in
a queue so we were just like wafting him and
he thought that was really fun so again so i
like the ideas have come come from them I love
that it comes from them as well I think that's
so important it means it's so much more meaningful
and there are lots of children that would then
like that experience so then they would like
that resource yeah I feel like it has to come
from them to make it meaningful doesn't it another
thing that I always twitter on about is wafter
so because of my own mental health issues I have
a massage every week and my massage therapist
is also a massage tutor So the school saved me
all their tubes. So with a massage tube, I cover
it. I used to paint them, but I found it easier
to cover them in duct tape. So I cover them in
duct tape and then you tie on something. So it
could be just like one big piece of foil. So
it's like those dancing fans or the light up
autumn lights or some light up tinsel or some
chiffon scarves or even sort of a load of crepe
in a row. And I call these wafters and they are
usually very, very useful. And Alison, my friend
Alison, who works at Reach Out AAC, she made
one recently with pipe lagging. So with the pipe
lagging, another thing about pipe lagging, you
can use it to put to your mouth and your ear
and it does amplification. The same as whirlies,
you know whirlies that you spin round and round?
They also do that. So another thing I've used
pipe lagging for is to put... We did a Teletubby
story with Dipsy's hat that flies away. So I
stuck Dipsy's hat on the end and then it could
fly all the way around all the pupils in the
class. I love that. So it's about that. If you're
doing the story to more than one person, would
you have that many resources or would you kind
of share it around the group? How would you navigate
that? I think it depends because a lot of things
are... I really, really love those laser torches
that are really, really big. So you only need
one of them because everyone can access that.
A wafter, you can go around one at a time. But
then you might have something that you want to
be more hands -on. Like if you've got some snow
or something and it could be some instant mash,
then you could have a little tray each and they've
all got some instant mash. So I would just be
flexible, really, depending on what it is. It
depends on the prop. It depends on the kids,
people, you know. So, yeah. There's no hard and
fast rules. Yeah, I suppose it has to be that
way, doesn't it? Learners don't follow the rules,
so why should we? I like that. What was I going
to say? Yeah, setting up the space. And setting
up an actual sensory experience. Do you try,
and yes, you're thinking about your pupils, but
are you also thinking about trying to reach all
of their senses? Or are you not really thinking
as much as that? Are you thinking of like...
I need to make I don't know a frog story so then
you're thinking about what would make a really
good frog a really good pond a really good tadpole
or are you thinking actually we need some movement
we need some sound we need some sound you know
what is the balance of all of those kind of thoughts
yeah when you're creating it that's a bit like
what comes first the words or the music yeah
again I think it's just interchangeable I think
sometimes you can see something like um like
a frog jelly mold and think oh that'd be really
cool and then you could do like as a teacher
when I was in a class I remember buying five
of those pop -up frog umbrellas because it was
as a teacher it appeals to have the same but
now I think it's far more useful to have five
different frogs and I've got a great big kind
of bin bag of all different frogs just to demonstrate
on my music course all the different ways that
you can do five frogs um you know with shower
caps and um noisy ones and jelly ones and all
sorts and that way you can know um in your class
who who's likes what you know someone really
likes the tactile exploration or if someone would
like the you know find the noisy one funny you
know and then you could give them out to whoever
or you can all have a go at everything you know
as i say it's it's whatever i like that variety
is key isn't it because otherwise they if they
can't tell us what they like then it's really
important for them to have variety and offer
variety so that we can see what really resonates
with them Yeah, I would say with our PMLD people,
choice is absolutely paramount as much as possible
throughout the day, whether it's, you know, I've
got one man who I ask his carer to give him two
deodorants to choose from, you know, one we know
he likes and one he doesn't. It's empowering.
It means you've got some control over your environment.
And conversely, we've got some of our people
who don't like making decisions. And, you know,
we've got to bear that in mind as well. You know,
you don't want to put anyone under any sort of
like stress or pressure. And we mentioned classes,
but as I say, I tend to work one -to -one now,
so it's an awful lot easier. It's just a luxury,
isn't it, to be able to work one -to -one because
it can be so bespoke to that individual person.
Yeah, well, having said that, one man that's
been coming to me for many, many years, almost
when I started, Solihull Library let me do a
session there for adults with PMLD. So he did
come with his friend. So that was really, really
lovely. That is really lovely. And I love that
you've got that really strong relationship, can't
you? If you're seeing them over years and years
and years, you could really, you probably know
his sensory system just as well as anyone that
works with him. Yeah, and his history as well.
Obviously, in our world, especially with the
adults, you know, people come and go out their
lives constantly, you know, whether it's... passing
away or if it's just you know changing changing
jobs you know people just sort of like come and
go so quite often we'll we'll have a people come
and people go song and and I can mention the
names that from the past because you know I've
been there that's really lovely we spoke about
bereavement and loss with PMLD before actually
because yeah like you say even if it's not them
passing away often there is lots of loss through
staff members or friends just moving on and and
change and that maybe not is isn't really explained
properly or understood yeah so there is a lot
of loss and bereavement how would you tackle
those kind of tricky subject matters with people
you work with In the same way that I tackle everything
with music and with sensory and with sensory
resources and sensory props and things like story
massage. So I do have a pack on bereavement for
£10 that people can buy, which includes, well,
lots of different people you can contact if need
be. And then hands on stuff that I've done. So
I did a session with one man who'd lost his mum
and dad. So I've put all the activities in that
we did. The man I've just mentioned, he did have
someone living with him who died. So we did sensory
sessions on that. Things like the man that died
liked motorbikes. So this man likes to shake.
So I made him a sensory bottle so he could shake
the motorbike thing. We used to do a thing with
the man that died, a poem about Harley Davidsons,
and we used to waft this flag. So we put his
aftershave on that in the session for the other
man. Because I think it's, you know, music and
smell, you know, because they bypass the hypothalamus
and go straight to the limbic system. Feeling,
emotion, our memory can take you straight back.
And, you know, I've got another young lady at
the minute and I found a perfume bottle in a
pet shop. So I've put her nanny's perfume. I
bought a sample of nanny's perfume and we put
nanny's perfume on that. And I wrote her a story
massage and a call and response story. And we
do a session about her nanny. But it's not always,
you know, sad. I think people are scared of the
whole bereavement thing. But, you know, doing
these sessions with all three of these people,
you know, we've had. lovely times as well you
know because we're having nice happy memories
or having fun you know one man do you remember
when you used to go to Skegness and we'd play
with a little coin toy where you put the coins
in and the coins come down and yeah so it's there
are some sort of like I don't know I think as
well It's really important that people buy it
now, not when somebody dies, because when somebody
dies, it's horrendous. You're so overwhelmed
and you're so upset. And because I'm this obsessive
person, first of all, I wrote a thing on bereavement
for creative education. And since then, I've
just added to it and adding to it and adding
to it. So it's enormous. It's really overwhelming,
you know, and you can't cope with that. When
you're grieving and it's harder to do things
like make decisions. But I've put things in there
like art and craft ideas that schools can do.
There's funeral ideas, memorial ideas. My godson's
funeral was kind of, couldn't have been better.
You know, in the thought and the effort, you
know, we'd got like Teletubbies and Rosie and
Jim painted on his coffin. And one of his mums
read The Hungry Caterpillar. And, you know, it
was just beautiful and a slideshow. You know,
lovely, lovely ideas. One of my kids from my
class, when he died, we had the school choir
come and sing, which was just, it was hilarious
because one of them was like a pub singer. But
it was, you know, there's lots of lovely ideas
that, you know, sort of, you don't want to be
Googling when you're grieving. And we, I can
attest to that firsthand. We lost a pupil last
year and we weren't prepared. We weren't ready.
And it was... a beautiful mess but trying to
navigate that with a class and support your team
and support the pupils and the parents you know
you're so close with the parents aren't you in
special education kind of trying to support everybody
whilst trying to also manage ourselves and find
suitable and appropriate things to do was just
an absolute minefield so if we'd have already
been doing that we already had the resource knew
the resource already practicing some of those
things you know like Like we said before, it
doesn't have to be somebody passing away. There's
lots of loss. So there's no reason why you couldn't
do regular, you know, activities on loss, on
staff members that have moved on, you know, friends
that are year six and they've gone to a new school,
you know, all of those kind of things and practice
that because then if and when it does happen,
and unfortunately it's really common in our field
of work that we would sadly lose some people
that we work with. It's one reason why you have
class pets. So that they experience some loss.
Yeah. Yeah, because we all experience loss in
our lives, don't we? Yeah. I mean, it's too easy
to assume that our pupils aren't aware and don't
feel the loss. Even on a sensory level, even
if it is on a sensory level, they will miss the
sounds that are now not there or the smells that
now aren't there. And the love. I think they
miss the love. Yeah. yeah and I've noticed that
with my learners that um our guest language processors
so do have some phrases and some words they were
able to say that they missed this pupil which
told us that then all of them would you know
that was our little cue of you know no if the
ones that are speaking are speaking about him
then it means that the ones that aren't speaking
are thinking about him Yeah, and a healthy way
is to talk, isn't it? It's, you know, talking
therapy and stuff. So, you know, for our nonverbal
kids, we would just do however we communicate
with them normally. So, like, I've written story
message for, you know, losing grandad, losing
a pet, you know, breaking up with somebody, you
know, all sorts, you know, there's all sorts
of loss, you know. Even moving house, you know,
breaking her favourite toy, like it's... Yes,
yeah. It's all loss, isn't it? Yeah. We use the
book Rabbitiness. I don't know if you know it.
Oh, I've also put together a huge, huge book
list. Every time someone comments on social media,
oh, we use this one. I'm like, we'll add that
to the list. So there's a huge, huge list. Rabbitiness
is so perfect for us. He was particularly loved
being. It's obviously all about rabbits. And
this story is beautiful, all about loss, isn't
it? And how to share their legacy in few music
and colour. And it was so perfect. So every year
now we will have a rabbitiness day and to remember,
well, yeah, to remember our friend particularly,
obviously remember him every day, but yeah, to
remember him particularly. You can also do things
like, you know, autobiography umbrellas and autobiography
sensory bags and stuff. And so you're doing that,
you know, we're finding all about ourselves and
all about me while we're living. But, you know,
when someone passes, they're really useful because
you've got in a bag an all about me that's, you
know, their favourite things. You know, this
is the music I like. This is the smell I like.
You know, this is one of my favourite toys. I
really love this show, you know. I really like
that. And it's all created by them. It's their
choices. Yeah, their preferences. I mean, you
could do it for anything, you know. I did a sensory
umbrella for a dog one, you know. So I've got
an umbrella that's just got like paws on and
then hanging off like. certain toys or bits of
blankets or bits of smells and stuff and then
it's a it's a focal point to talk about the things
as well isn't it or remember he used to like
playing with this toy you know or here's his
little name tag how cute's that you know and
it gives you a little something to you know grieve
together over yeah well like we would with concrete
props and sensory resources you know 24 7 yeah
absolutely so why not do it with everything any
kind of tricky topic yeah Can it work for all
ages and stages? You know, thinking about age
appropriateness. Yeah, absolutely. Can we talk
about that for a second? Of course, yes. Because
I heard you talk about, you know, a Teletubby
story and things. Yeah. I'm sure you can guess
what I think about that, but I'd love to hear
your views on aid appropriateness. We have a
day centre by us and I asked them about the Teletubby
thing. And they said if my godson had turned
up with a Teletubby, they would take it off him
and give him a more appropriate soft toy, which
to me is absolutely ridiculous. It would mean
absolutely nothing to him. He was Teletubby obsessed.
You know, he could choose an episode of Teletubbies
that he wanted to watch, you know. I don't know,
a Minecraft figure or whatever it'd be these
days. It would be completely irrelevant and mean
absolutely nothing to him. And I think that's,
it's cruel. You know, I think. Yeah, and I know
lots of adults that are really into Disney. Absolutely.
Disney seems to be an acceptable one. Or, you
know, whatever. Like there were lots of things
that all of us like. Yeah, absolutely. Because
they just feel nice. They feel good. They feel
nostalgic. They bring us joy. Yeah. Who's to
put a number to that? Like I do think it's genuinely
bizarre. simply since we say stage not age yes
and Flo Longhorn says person appropriate yes
because it's really you know you might have someone
you know at a cognitive level that's that's quite
low but then they might you know sort of I don't
know have I don't know a relationship with someone
you know a boyfriend girlfriend type relationship
you know you can't sort of say they're at a particular
it's very hard to say that someone's at a particular
sort of level because there's so many different
sort of facets to our sort of personality aren't
there but you know I think if you are at that
level it's really important that whatever you
find comforting whatever makes you feel safe
is you're allowed to have and it should be utilized
to the absolute max if anybody anywhere in any
school has got any kind of interest or whatever
you would just use it not as a reward but use
it as part of your what you're doing you know
sort of like if you're counting so i've just
written this this morning actually if you're
counting something you might as well be counting
paw patrol you know compare that to a worksheet
you know if you've got something right in front
of you that's tangible and real you can touch
it you can hold it and it's your favorite characters
you know you need to use what's What's of interest
and what's motivating to encourage people to
learn and encourage them to remember. And I've
just done sensory drama actually at a care home
for some ladies with dementia. We did Strictly
Come Dancing and it was superb. They absolutely
loved it. playing with all the light -up stuff
and fiddling with the sand. And we'd got a big
disco balloon that we were playing with and instruments
and fluorescent stuff. We were all dancing to
all these different... We did story massage there
as well as sensory props. But yeah, it was superb.
That's another good point, isn't it? take be
inspired by what they're really interested in
and obviously don't not do that but also maybe
try and broaden their interest you know maybe
they're into strictly come dancing well maybe
they'll also be into different types of music
and different types of dancing and different
types of fabrics and you know kind of expand
off of that too like say if they're into paw
patrol well maybe they'll like other type of
animal based cartoons or other yeah maybe it's
the colors maybe it's the big eyes maybe it's
that they're animal based explore and experiment
with that too with no you know it's not bad if
they don't like whatever yeah it's good to kind
of just experiment and it's offering stuff isn't
it it's offering invitations to yeah new experiences
and stuff I remember the first time I heard about
galaxies when I was a teacher you know when I
first started teaching and I thought that's ridiculous
thing to do with PMLD they should be learning
about themselves about their bodies about their
own likes and preferences but then I did a galaxies
session and completely and utterly 180 degrees
turn around I'm completely literally converted
you know because doing sensory dramas like that
as you say you can include things that people
like because you know them but you can also introduce
a whole new load of stuff that you might not
I mean who knew that someone was gonna like you
know sort of like the I don't know a ball with
jingles in you know if we hadn't had that for
a planet you know because you might not always
worry I don't know if you agree But my fear as
a special education teacher is always that I
underestimated the understanding of the learners
in my class. You know, have they got PMLD or
have they got PMBL? So profound barriers to learning.
Maybe they do understand scientific concepts.
Maybe they do understand the concept of a galaxy
better than I do. Maybe. But they just can't
show or tell us because, you know, they're physically
disabled in multiple and profound ways. So, yeah,
I kind of like to try and mix it up. I like to
offer like a sensory based. So that everybody
that learns through the sensory system has something
like that. But then, yeah, why not use words
like bioluminescence? And, you know, Joanna Grace
does it beautifully with her how to create a
star sensory story. And why not do that? Because,
you know, my learners might understand the concept.
Who's to say they won't? And then if they don't,
then we've just got a really cool sensory space
story. Then I can go home and sleep well at night
knowing that. You know, whatever they do know,
I've kind of captured them. Yeah, I think Jonathan
Bryan as well also sort of like showed us how
effective the low -tech eye gaze can be. So,
you know, sort of like, and then you can assess
someone's comprehension. Would that be with like
an e -tram board? Yeah, yeah. We had a volunteer
at Camp Jojo. I should give them a shout out,
shouldn't I? So Camp Jojo is a camp for children
with complex needs who wouldn't ordinarily go
camping. So, you know, they might have oxygen
or be in wheelchairs or whatever. So I volunteer
at that every year. So I've done one camp so
far, but another two camps to go. And I can't
remember why I was telling you that. What was
I saying about Camp Jojo? We were talking about
e -tram. Oh, yeah. There was a lad, when we were
at Camp Jojo, we do Camp Jojo's Got Talent. And
so kids get up and we had one kid come up and
tell us why 4G was better than 5G. Or someone
was learning to walk on his Zimmer. So he did
that with loads of bubbles and a car wash song.
You know, whatever. You know, we just celebrate
whatever. they want to celebrate really and we
had um a kid there and one of the incredible
incredible volunteers the volunteers are amazing
they come from all over and she made him one
of these boards and he could just blink and he
planned the whole of his camp jojo's got talent
down to One of these, this man, one of the original
founders of Camp Jojo, her dad, who's never got
up to do Camp Jojo, he's got talent, doesn't
like it. He got him wearing a baseball cap backwards.
It was very, very specific. Just by blinking,
he got all these instruments and made him get
up and do the dance to this rap song. So was
it like, yes, no? Yeah. Well, no, letters. It
was letters for him. But I think, you know, you
would start, yes, no, wouldn't you? And then.
same as you would with like an AAC or anything
imagine if they were never shown that AAC imagine
if they were never shown that e -tran you know
like we would just never know and then no wonder
there's such high poor mental health within the
disability disabled community I think I'm also
very wary the other way. I also feel really,
really strongly because Jonathan Bryan wrote
about sort of, you know, how we were just doing
nursery rhymes and sensory and special ed. And
it's not just if that's where our PMLD kids are
at, that is what we need to do. And we need to
love them and appreciate them and accept them.
where they are and what they're doing and and
how they you know just for themselves to be themselves
you know and if that's what they need that is
absolutely fine and that's important too we have
to love them for who they are yeah so absolutely
I do feel like really strongly about that as
well yeah I totally I totally agree and I also
feel equally strongly which is such a juxtaposition
that sometimes we are most comfortable there
Sometimes we're most comfortable doing we're
going on a bear hunt story. Sometimes we're more
comfortable just doing the nursery rhymes that
we know rather than learning new ones. So I think
it's also good to question, is it the children
that want this? Or is it the team that are just
a bit stuck and stagnant and aren't researching?
So it's just as a teacher or as the leader or
manager of your own thing, it's always good to
just question, you know, why are we doing this
the same every time? Is it to ease their anxiety?
Is it because they want to? Or is it just because
we're a little bit stuck? Absolutely, yeah. Penny
Lacey was absolutely instrumental in drumming
into me, you know, we must, must be reflective
teachers. So all the time just thinking about,
you know, what you're doing and why you're doing
it and stuff. And I know... somebody with a child
with PMLD who sort of claims he's into 80s music
and gets to meet all the 80s pop stars and the
kid isn't into his music. But then on the other
hand, I don't know if you follow Hugh on social
media, Hugh's mum is into 80s stuff and he was
grown up and he now likes heavy metal. But that's
fantastic because she's listening to what he
really wants and what he really likes and respecting
his wishes. Yeah. Yeah, and if you didn't have
the opportunity to listen to all types of music,
then you wouldn't know that. Absolutely, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to, yeah. It's all
trial and error, isn't it, really? I love sensory
massage stories for that, actually. That kind
of, and that tack -pack kind of style. Because
it gives you an opportunity to hear a range of
sounds, a range of music, and then you can see
how your learners are reacting to that. You know,
one of our learners loves classical music. And
we wouldn't know that if... you know we didn't
explore that yeah side of things one of my clients
is so musically bent you know but I sing my hello
song he has um because I'm also a complementary
therapist as well as a teacher so I go to this
man with PMLD um going this evening actually
and he has full body aromatherapy massage and
as soon as I get that I sing my hello song as
fast as I possibly can because I know I'm tone
deaf and he doesn't like my singing Do you know
what? I've had a few students that do that, that
really just don't want me to sing. Make it very
obvious that they do not want me to sing. It's
just the CD. They don't want my voice. And I'm
like, okay. Yeah, I've seen that. But he loves
all sorts, you know, from opera to, you know,
musicals to Disney, all sorts, you know. Music
that's in the charts, soul music, you know, he's
got a massive range. And that's because he's
been, you know, exposed to it. If you were working
with somebody that seems very, you know, you're
pulling out all the stops, you've got your best
things, you've got your best music, sound, action,
everything, and they seem really uninterested,
what would you do? Okay, so the first thing,
if anyone wants to make a booking, because as
I say, most of the people I work with are non
-verbal, so I would be talking to people who
know, not many family members or carers or whatever,
to see what they like, what they dislike, even
in my... you know massage and reflexology forms
it's like a what do you like what do you dislike
what what are your triggers what are your glimmers
you know um so yeah so that's where I would start
and with anybody and everybody in my world probably
intensive interaction is just absolutely magic
a really simple concept that's hugely powerful
yeah and really does build bonds relationships
get you gets you into their you know, world and
sees the world how they see it. And you can really
find what they enjoy with their stims and what
they enjoy with their sounds. And actually, ultimately,
they are the leader. So they are showing you
what they're an expert in. And it's sometimes
really difficult. And it reminds you that, you
know, they are experts at things too. And it's
not all about them meeting us where we're at.
It's about us. meeting them where they're at
and yeah you're right it's such a such a such
a beautifully simple concept you don't need any
resources all you just need is you and them yeah
well there's the hanging out program are you
familiar with that i've only just heard about
it okay yeah yeah so i have sent that to uh to
a care home recently yeah it's new on me i haven't
tested out yet but that's that's going to be
my yeah lovely lovely lovely concept do you want
to explain a little bit about it uh it's from
a lady who in I think she's in Australia and
she was she's a speech therapist and it really
worried her things like you know sort of like
they might walk past someone in a care home and
say hello and by the time our kids had responded
with the process in time and then you know and
then formulating the speech you know that person's
long gone you know they're just whizzed past
because you know they're busy so she she recommends
that we have 10 minutes just quality time just
10 minutes just sitting with someone and just
being with them and you know being led by them
um and just having that really important just
being yeah every day 10 minutes every day yeah
it's lovely you know and you know I do a session
over zoom and and even then sort of like I'll
pause and we'll say you know let's just have
like whatever three minutes five minutes and
you know if he's in a chatty mood it flies by
but sometimes you know you don't speak and that
three minutes seems really long i saw i saw a
lady on youtube once 10 minutes she waited for
the man she was working with to initiate and
make a sound 10 minutes it's incredible which
is long when say if you're being paid by the
parents and they're watching and they're thinking
hang on yeah but it comes with some confidence
doesn't it to wait that long and I feel the same
with intensive interaction as well you know you've
got to be confident to just wait like don't force
anything don't make anything happen don't come
with an agenda just wait and it's harder than
yes it seems it is yeah but so much more rewarding
if you do wait yeah yeah yeah lovely and there's
also you know sort of physical interaction and
musical interaction as well you know they're
all approaches that I would embrace yeah definitely
so let so get the team around the child you know
talking about what that motivates them what they
enjoy and work off of that as a starting point
and then yeah ultimately intensive interaction
so they kind of maybe trust you a little bit
more and you can learn a little bit more about
what they enjoy doing and their language as it
were yeah how would you get your team or wider
school or parents on board with things that you're
wanting to do with the the learners because ultimately
if you're going in and out you know that's a
great session you're having a fantastic session
but then ultimately it'd be even better if they
were doing it every day so yeah how do you get
those on the floor I do have um a sensory course
which is a day course um so we spend a lot of
the morning thinking about why why we're doing
this and why we're using senses and then in the
afternoon we do loads of activities like sensory
pass the parcel sensory umbrellas sensory mats
sensory drama sensory stories so it's a whole
day A head teacher from one school saw somebody
doing something after my course and said, oh,
is that one of Sarah's ideas? And she said, oh,
no, it's mine. And that is what I want. I want
to empower people to go and do their own sensory
stories, their own, you know, whatever, sensory
songs. Story Massage is a classic one, I think,
at the moment. Lots of people. sort of like join
in when someone leads a story massage session
where to me it can be used in so many different
ways i mean it's absolutely fantastic you know
sort of like for families and siblings to do
or to do just like if as you're chatting you
know it doesn't have to be a story it could just
be you know a conversation that you're doing
or a nursery rhyme you know it's um it can be
used in lots of different ways and at lots of
different times or lots of different people rather
than just like joining in when the teacher does
a a story massage session having that initial
structure helps build confidence to know what
to do and to get them doing that and then hopefully
the idea is then that they'd feel comfortable
enough to then leave the structure a little bit
and be led by them but sometimes it's nice to
have some kind of massage story or sensory story
as a bit of structure as a bit of cushioning
and a buffer really for our benefit not for theirs
absolutely yeah but i think it's a case of training
both for any settings any any schools any parents
at camp jojo the camp that i've just done um
i sat doing story massage on a mom and the husband
sat in front of her on the floor as we talked
about lots of different ways that they could
use it when they got home. So, and again, if
you, any kind of training for people, I would
make sure it's very, very sort of prop heavy.
You know, I went to one school and didn't take
a single slideshow. I'm not, I say I'm not a
fan of slideshows. You know, it depends where
and when and what you're doing. Get the stuff
out and get working. Rather than talking about
it, let's just do it. So that they can get their,
the appreciation of the fact that, you know,
when we are using our senses if you use your
senses you learn better you remember better and
if you're actually doing that with them i like
to demonstrate that so that they can see that
in action you know i like to you know about a
call and a response about call and response i've
written a story massage about story massage you
know so it's all very sort of like um here's
a demonstration with a little bit of information
but yeah people need to know why they're doing
what they're doing as well. Yes, because then
that gives it longevity then, doesn't it? And
also when a senior leadership team comes in and
questions, you know, why are you just waiting
when they're on the other side of the room? Why
are you just sitting watching them or sitting,
not even looking at them, in silence for 10 minutes?
Why are you doing that? How is that useful? You
can then explain to them. Wow, well. I've you
know I'm here I'm ready to receive when they're
willing to give you know you can you can say
we're doing intensive direction or we're doing
whatever it is we're just doing hanging out and
and this is the space he needs in order to accept
that whatever it is but if you know justify it
yeah then you can justify it and then I think
I'm guaranteed they'll say oh okay and then walk
away but if you don't know your why then that's
going to be really difficult to then justify
and unfortunately you often do need to, especially
in schools, justify the time spent doing those
things. We had a head and he said we had to put
how much time we were like in the bathroom with
our kids, you know, put how much time on all
the different subjects and including the bathroom.
But obviously I was in nursery at the time, so
we were in the bathroom 90 % of the time. And
we said what percent we were and he was like,
can you make it any less? And I'm like, no. And
he said, right, then we'll justify that to Astrid
when they come. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, gosh, so
much is easily done. So much learning is done
in the bathroom, I think. Yeah. There is so much
consent, choices, communication. It's so intimate.
You have to give time. Somebody that we had on,
I think a couple of weeks ago, works with PMOD,
PMOD teacher. And she said, again, it's a crazy
amount of time spent in the bathroom. You know,
we have one lay on bed, one hoist, you know,
somebody's always in there. But she said, I really
don't want to rush it because it's so intimate.
And I really want to have that, give off that
opportunity of space, time, processing time,
consent, choices, narration of what you're doing.
It's really important. And self -awareness and
body awareness. The lady from Chely Heritage
recommends we should have like full length mirrors
in our... in our bathrooms for our PMLD kids
so they see their whole body so they learn things
like the concept of you know that foot belongs
to me I control that foot we never do that do
we they've never maybe never seen their whole
self yeah yeah it's thought -provoking isn't
it yeah I love that that's why I love these podcast
chats I really do selfishly use these for my
own training by the way so thank you for that
but again you know training is expensive so things
like I mean if I If someone was interested in,
say, sensory stories, you know, just listen to
Pete Wells' podcast. You know, he deconstructs
his sensory story. He talks about the props and
why he's using them. And he interviews someone
from the, you know, special ed world every week.
And, you know, you could just learn while you're
in the car, you know. And he's, you know, obviously
now there's lots of podcasts to choose from about
our field. You know, it's a really simple and
cheap way in. yeah absolutely talking about courses
I feel like your courses are incredibly affordable
they were live ones for 12 pounds then 40 pounds
for the pre -recorded do you want to talk a little
bit about what courses you offer because I'm
sure that people after listening to this will
be really interested to learn more yeah subject
yeah that would that would be really yeah thank
you um yeah so then what I did was when I first
set up I wrote um about eight different courses
like a play one and a sensory one and stuff and
autism one and then What happened was the schools
would phone me and say, oh, can you do a mixture
of this and this? So what I tend to do now is
bespoke courses. So I can do you a course on
anything sort of sensory based. So long as you
give me some kind of like remit, I can do a bespoke
course. Pulling on those eight courses as well
as, you know, other things that I've done over
the past few years. So I can come, I can travel
to. Anyway, I've got a little camper van so I
can come to your settings or we can do stuff
over Zoom. So that could be any kind of talk,
consultancy or any talk. So the sensory ideas
course has been the one that's been the most
booked, you know, sort of how to use the equipment,
why to use the equipment. And I would say as
well, Joe Grace did a book called Myth Bust in
Sensory Rooms. And one of the most important
things that came out of that was that people
want a sensory room. They go buy a sensory room
and they don't have training. They don't think
about beforehand how they're going to use it,
how they're going to timetable it, who's going
to use it, why they're using it. So, yeah, I
feel really strongly that you should have sensory
training before you spend all that money, you
know, because sometimes, you know, my man that
likes to shake things once, the best thing that
we used was just like a three pound torch. because
he needs to have it within like 90 centimeters
from his eye. Yeah, I find that we changed our
sensory room a lot when I came in because it
was very overwhelming. There was sounds, there
was movement, there was light, there was loads
of resources. Like the whole room was filled
with resources to choose from. And I was like,
whoa, whoa, whoa, two to three things max. Like
this is, you know, this isn't chill out. This
isn't regulation. This is so overstimulating.
And it would have worked for some pupils, but
it certainly didn't work for the class we had
in practice. No, what happens then is they just
shut down. Yeah. They're just shut down. But
I think one of the problems with that is the
catalogs because the catalogs want to sell everything.
This is what Jo says. So everything's turned
on. Whereas in my room, it says all over my room
and whenever people come and I have a sensory
room at my house, which is where I work. So I've
got a converted garage, which is a sensory room
with, you know, bubble tubes and fiber optics
and UV and everything. So if someone comes and
wants to hire the room, I show them round and
I say, you know, just one piece at a time. And
when you finish with that piece, you turn it
off and you put something else on. It's really...
simple to use it's still just plugs and switches
you know because that's another issue I have
with sensory rooms is senior management think
they're wonderful and then the staff don't know
how they work yeah yeah and then what's the point
yeah yeah so um courses wise as well I've got
um sensory outdoor ideas you know sort of like
for working outside or playing outside sensory
walls that I've either seen ideas that have been
done or I've invented myself like um A sensory
bubble wall, for example. So, you know, the tube
ones, you sort of duct tape half a dozen of those
to a part of your school fence. And that's for
blowing so that the kids have to do some deep
breathing. Really, really keen on the whole holistic
thing. So sensory meditation or massage or story
massage. I can do talks on or sensology. The
latest one I've just done is dance massage. So
I've just written a course on dance massage if
anyone wanted to book that. I could do it over
Zoom, but it would be much better in person because
obviously it's very interactive and you've got
to join in and you've got to do it. Yeah, and
amazing that you can travel all over the UK.
That's just so awesome. I saw some information
on, yeah, oh gosh, you've got so many courses
on there. I will leave your website down below
and people can check it out so that they can,
yeah, get planning what. courses they would like
for their settings I better find out how it works
and maybe update it then yeah yeah you've got
to talk very much thank you so much Sarah for
joining me today it's been absolute joy this
topic is so where my heart is at gosh i could
talk about senses and meeting prd learners where
they're at forever and i'm just so pleased that
you're doing what you're doing and yeah that
is just making it a little bit easier for all
of these mainstream schools that would want to
do this stuff just don't know where to turn and
so thank you so much for for giving them somewhere
safe that gives very knowledgeable very wise
and very experienced answers so thank you Thank
you very much.