WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.680
Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education

00:00:02.680 --> 00:00:06.160
teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything

00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:09.119
communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson

00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:11.660
ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged

00:00:11.660 --> 00:00:15.300
4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in

00:00:15.300 --> 00:00:17.640
the field answering your questions and sharing

00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:19.559
our knowledge and experience working alongside

00:00:19.559 --> 00:00:22.539
our beautiful young people. Let's get started.

00:00:28.489 --> 00:00:30.949
First of all, a message about our sponsor. Today's

00:00:30.949 --> 00:00:33.649
sponsor is Octopus Energy. I've recently signed

00:00:33.649 --> 00:00:35.810
up and have been totally won over by their mega

00:00:35.810 --> 00:00:38.729
low rates and 15p per kilowatt buyback scheme

00:00:38.729 --> 00:00:41.630
for any solar power we aren't using. In just

00:00:41.630 --> 00:00:43.710
a few minutes, I'd put in all my details and

00:00:43.710 --> 00:00:45.429
they do the switch from your current provider

00:00:45.429 --> 00:00:47.929
for you. It could not be simpler. Don't take

00:00:47.929 --> 00:00:50.229
it from me though, over 6 million homes have

00:00:50.229 --> 00:00:52.539
made the sustainable switch. When you sign up

00:00:52.539 --> 00:00:55.700
today using my code, we both get £50. It keeps

00:00:55.700 --> 00:00:57.899
me creating this free content for you guys and

00:00:57.899 --> 00:01:00.719
you get cheaper energy. Double win. Head to the

00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:02.560
link in the description below to make the switch

00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:07.739
today. Now to the episode. Hello everybody, my

00:01:07.739 --> 00:01:10.060
name is Jordan and welcome back to the Sensory

00:01:10.060 --> 00:01:13.180
Classroom podcast. Today I am joined by Samantha

00:01:13.180 --> 00:01:16.319
who is an education lawyer. She specialises in

00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:18.180
supporting children and families with special

00:01:18.180 --> 00:01:20.560
educational needs, particularly around securing

00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:22.799
the right support for neurodivergent children

00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:26.099
within the education system. Her expertise includes

00:01:26.099 --> 00:01:29.989
handling complex EHCP issues. resolving school

00:01:29.989 --> 00:01:33.310
placement disputes and appealing to the SEND

00:01:33.310 --> 00:01:36.450
Tribunal. So useful for us lot, I'm so pleased

00:01:36.450 --> 00:01:39.769
she's here. Hi Sam, welcome. Hi Jordan, thank

00:01:39.769 --> 00:01:42.469
you for having me. You are so welcome. So today

00:01:42.469 --> 00:01:44.609
we're going to be mainly focusing on understanding

00:01:44.609 --> 00:01:48.370
EHCPs. So demystifying the process and common

00:01:48.370 --> 00:01:50.349
pitfalls for parents seeking support and it is

00:01:50.349 --> 00:01:53.189
so needed because they so don't have access to

00:01:53.189 --> 00:01:55.409
education lawyers like yourself. Do you mind

00:01:55.409 --> 00:01:57.769
explaining a little bit about what you do and

00:01:57.769 --> 00:02:00.650
your why I suppose behind doing what you do?

00:02:01.069 --> 00:02:05.329
Yeah so I suppose... In terms of the why, from

00:02:05.329 --> 00:02:09.530
our perspective, we want to help educate parents

00:02:09.530 --> 00:02:12.189
and families so that they know their legal rights,

00:02:12.370 --> 00:02:15.469
so that they're able to pursue any sort of challenges

00:02:15.469 --> 00:02:18.449
themselves. We tend to find that a lot of people

00:02:18.449 --> 00:02:21.030
that come to us have been fighting this for years,

00:02:21.490 --> 00:02:23.530
sometimes even a couple of years just to get

00:02:23.530 --> 00:02:26.550
an EHCP issued. And when they finally get that

00:02:26.550 --> 00:02:28.650
EHCP, it's like building a ticket out of Charlie

00:02:28.650 --> 00:02:30.150
and the Chocolate Factory. They think it's brilliant,

00:02:30.250 --> 00:02:31.550
everything's perfect, everything's going to be

00:02:31.550 --> 00:02:34.250
okay. But that unfortunately isn't the case for

00:02:34.250 --> 00:02:36.610
a lot of families. Quite often families don't

00:02:36.610 --> 00:02:39.590
realise how poorly local authorities draft these

00:02:39.590 --> 00:02:44.069
and the impact it has. And we sometimes see cases

00:02:44.069 --> 00:02:46.129
where families aren't realising how bad things

00:02:46.129 --> 00:02:48.469
are until they're at a point of thinking that

00:02:48.469 --> 00:02:50.810
something isn't being provided that should be.

00:02:50.949 --> 00:02:53.370
But when you look at the EHCP, unfortunately,

00:02:53.490 --> 00:02:55.610
it's not worded as they thought it was or it's

00:02:55.610 --> 00:02:57.990
been worded really woolly. So the local authority

00:02:57.990 --> 00:03:00.650
able to get out of their legal duty and what

00:03:00.650 --> 00:03:03.520
makes it. difficult at that point is to challenge

00:03:03.520 --> 00:03:06.300
it so one of the things that we want to do is

00:03:06.300 --> 00:03:08.520
we want to help educate families so that they

00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:10.699
are hopefully able to spot these things early

00:03:10.699 --> 00:03:13.120
on the process so that if they're in that scenario

00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:16.280
and they need to challenge it then legally they

00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:18.080
can and that's what we can support them with

00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:20.060
and obviously we support families throughout

00:03:20.060 --> 00:03:22.840
the whole of the EHCP process anything linked

00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:25.599
to EHCPs and actually anything linked to education

00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:28.439
you know admissions, exclusions, school transport

00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:31.719
we do a lot. I was just thinking that, is there

00:03:31.719 --> 00:03:34.379
any way of supporting them before it goes wrong,

00:03:34.620 --> 00:03:36.580
supporting them through making sure that it is

00:03:36.580 --> 00:03:40.240
right before it's actually finalised? Yeah, from

00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:43.319
our perspective, what we can do is we can help

00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:46.379
parents go through the draft EHCP, either the

00:03:46.379 --> 00:03:48.099
first one or if they've got one following an

00:03:48.099 --> 00:03:50.680
annual review, and we can help them look at it

00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:52.520
and kind of say, OK, well, this isn't good because

00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:54.620
of that. what you need to do is get the local

00:03:54.620 --> 00:03:57.360
authority to try and put more information in

00:03:57.360 --> 00:03:59.539
and so at that stage where the parents are able

00:03:59.539 --> 00:04:01.639
to give parental comments within the 15 days

00:04:01.639 --> 00:04:04.439
of the draft and we can help them prepare that

00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:07.360
but what we sometimes find is that we can point

00:04:07.360 --> 00:04:09.020
all these things out to local authorities and

00:04:09.020 --> 00:04:11.180
they just ignore it even if the parents got evidence

00:04:11.180 --> 00:04:13.340
to say all these things need to be added to the

00:04:13.340 --> 00:04:15.500
plan if a local authority doesn't want to include

00:04:15.500 --> 00:04:18.060
it they're not going to include it So sometimes

00:04:18.060 --> 00:04:20.560
then parents find that they have to appeal to

00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:24.120
get those amendments to the EHCPs. And again,

00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:25.860
we can help them through the appeals process.

00:04:26.660 --> 00:04:28.459
Essentially we can help parents as much or as

00:04:28.459 --> 00:04:30.759
little as they want. The tribunal process is

00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:33.620
meant to be parent friendly. But one of the things

00:04:33.620 --> 00:04:36.300
that I've noticed over the years I've been doing

00:04:36.300 --> 00:04:38.199
this is that local authorities are becoming more

00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:40.980
litigious. They're arguing these kind of closer

00:04:40.980 --> 00:04:43.879
to hearings than they used to. They're instructing

00:04:43.879 --> 00:04:46.459
barristers more often. So I can appreciate for

00:04:46.459 --> 00:04:48.759
families, the idea of going to a tribunal anyway

00:04:48.759 --> 00:04:50.779
is going to be really daunting. But when you're

00:04:50.779 --> 00:04:53.160
up against an aggressive local authority lawyer

00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:55.360
or a barrister, it's going to feel even more

00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:57.620
daunting at that point. Yeah, especially if you

00:04:57.620 --> 00:04:59.879
haven't got the funds to fund that yourself.

00:05:00.019 --> 00:05:01.879
I mean, how would you do that? And you're already,

00:05:01.959 --> 00:05:04.040
you know, you're a carer, you're managing for

00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:07.139
a child with an AHCP or a young person with an

00:05:07.139 --> 00:05:10.259
AHCP. So it's not as easy as, oh, yeah, I can

00:05:10.259 --> 00:05:14.160
just, you know, combat that too. Yeah, and time

00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:16.600
is, that's a really good point. Actually, a lot

00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:18.100
of parents don't have the time to be doing this

00:05:18.100 --> 00:05:20.139
on top of all your other parental things that

00:05:20.139 --> 00:05:22.319
you are doing. The idea of having to fight the

00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:24.319
local authority to get what your child is legally

00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:27.529
entitled for is just awful. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:05:27.810 --> 00:05:30.269
I suppose for those that are listening that are

00:05:30.269 --> 00:05:33.889
new parents or mainstream teachers, maybe you

00:05:33.889 --> 00:05:35.490
may not really understand what we're talking

00:05:35.490 --> 00:05:39.949
about here. And EHCP is, in the UK, stands for

00:05:39.949 --> 00:05:42.930
Educational Healthcare Plan. And it came in,

00:05:42.930 --> 00:05:45.110
was it about 10 years ago, it changed from statement

00:05:45.110 --> 00:05:49.060
to EHCP? 2014. 2014 oh that was a good guess

00:05:49.060 --> 00:05:51.680
10 years ago uh and so it was called statement

00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:54.040
it's now called AHCP and it's supposed to be

00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:55.620
well you could probably explain better actually

00:05:55.620 --> 00:05:58.379
but in my understanding it is a it's a legally

00:05:58.379 --> 00:06:01.639
binding contract if you will on what the local

00:06:01.639 --> 00:06:04.540
authority will either provide or fund or what

00:06:04.540 --> 00:06:07.660
the child needs in order to access education

00:06:07.660 --> 00:06:12.319
health and care up until 25 would you like to

00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:14.379
explain a little bit better that yeah and and

00:06:14.379 --> 00:06:17.910
and that I tend to when I'm talking to clients

00:06:17.910 --> 00:06:19.709
actually refer to it as being like a contract

00:06:19.709 --> 00:06:21.490
and to kind of think about it like if you were

00:06:21.490 --> 00:06:23.850
in a work situation you would have a contract

00:06:23.850 --> 00:06:25.990
with your employer that would set out all the

00:06:25.990 --> 00:06:28.350
specifics that you would know that were your

00:06:28.350 --> 00:06:30.709
rights what you're able to do and that's almost

00:06:30.709 --> 00:06:33.550
what an EHCP does but only certain sections of

00:06:33.550 --> 00:06:37.709
it have that contractual element okay and that's

00:06:37.709 --> 00:06:39.649
why it's really important to make sure that when

00:06:39.649 --> 00:06:42.149
you've got an EHCP you're going through because

00:06:42.149 --> 00:06:44.769
one of the other sneaky things that local authorities

00:06:44.769 --> 00:06:47.790
sometimes do is they might put in what you want

00:06:47.790 --> 00:06:49.709
but they might put it in a section that means

00:06:49.709 --> 00:06:51.930
that actually it's not legally enforceable or

00:06:51.930 --> 00:06:54.350
that it's harder to enforce it legally and so

00:06:54.350 --> 00:06:55.930
that's the other thing when you are looking at

00:06:55.930 --> 00:06:58.790
any HCP is questioning should this information

00:06:58.790 --> 00:07:01.850
be in this section and so one of the things that

00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:04.199
i would like to sort of do with you today is

00:07:04.199 --> 00:07:06.980
to go through and say you know these the different

00:07:06.980 --> 00:07:08.899
sections what should be in them what are the

00:07:08.899 --> 00:07:11.420
common things to look out for that local authorities

00:07:11.420 --> 00:07:14.939
like to do um so that you can try and avoid being

00:07:14.939 --> 00:07:17.019
in that situation where you maybe have something

00:07:17.019 --> 00:07:19.269
good but it's in the wrong place Amazing. And

00:07:19.269 --> 00:07:21.189
maybe like me, you know, the SENCO and the teacher

00:07:21.189 --> 00:07:23.410
is trying their hardest in the review to get

00:07:23.410 --> 00:07:25.449
everything on there. But maybe they're putting

00:07:25.449 --> 00:07:28.310
it in the wrong section, you know, not even knowingly.

00:07:28.310 --> 00:07:30.709
And then county are maybe thinking, oh, brilliant,

00:07:30.930 --> 00:07:33.069
you know, I don't have to pay for that. And that's

00:07:33.069 --> 00:07:36.689
ultimately why a county council would make it

00:07:36.689 --> 00:07:38.269
difficult or put things in different places,

00:07:38.310 --> 00:07:40.930
because ultimately they need to fund this, don't

00:07:40.930 --> 00:07:44.029
they? And their budgets are very tight and they

00:07:44.029 --> 00:07:46.779
might not think the child is necessarily... high

00:07:46.779 --> 00:07:50.160
needs enough for that resource or the resource

00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:52.500
might not actually be accessible in the county.

00:07:52.579 --> 00:07:54.439
I mean, I'm in Cornwall and trying to get an

00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:56.939
occupational therapist is just like trying to

00:07:56.939 --> 00:07:59.079
find a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. So

00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:01.639
we cannot put that it's legally binding in the

00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:03.660
contract because they don't exist in this county

00:08:03.660 --> 00:08:06.839
for under local authority. They are private.

00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:10.660
So it's really difficult to... to navigate those

00:08:10.660 --> 00:08:12.779
things but i'd love to talk about yeah let's

00:08:12.779 --> 00:08:14.779
go through section by section let's talk about

00:08:14.779 --> 00:08:17.439
the rights and how we navigate getting access

00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:21.160
to this stuff that the children absolutely need

00:08:21.160 --> 00:08:24.819
and not need to we're not talking about needs

00:08:24.819 --> 00:08:27.600
as in wants we are talking about needs you know

00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:31.639
like as as important as food and water and air

00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:33.860
these children are needing this stuff that's

00:08:33.860 --> 00:08:37.100
why these contracts are so important aren't they

00:08:37.100 --> 00:08:40.240
they really are and I think actually one of the

00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:42.539
points you just made also helps summarize the

00:08:42.539 --> 00:08:45.090
situation in the sense that very easy to assume

00:08:45.090 --> 00:08:46.649
that these things are done deliberately by local

00:08:46.649 --> 00:08:48.950
authorities but actually some of it could be

00:08:48.950 --> 00:08:50.889
a lack of education and the lack of understanding

00:08:50.889 --> 00:08:53.710
of the system local authorities have huge workloads

00:08:53.710 --> 00:08:56.269
in terms of their case officers and i'm you know

00:08:56.269 --> 00:08:58.669
there are some send case officers who are you

00:08:58.669 --> 00:09:00.509
know more difficult than others and i think don't

00:09:00.509 --> 00:09:04.110
help things but as much as i am critical of a

00:09:04.110 --> 00:09:06.590
local authority i do also have some understanding

00:09:06.590 --> 00:09:09.169
that this isn't always deliberate and this sometimes

00:09:09.169 --> 00:09:12.429
is just a lack of resource or lack of education

00:09:12.429 --> 00:09:15.309
on their part Yeah, on that note, we've got,

00:09:15.309 --> 00:09:17.710
I think we've got 13, in the county, we've got

00:09:17.710 --> 00:09:20.470
13 SEND officers. And I think we've got something

00:09:20.470 --> 00:09:24.610
like 32 ,000 children with EHCPs in the county.

00:09:25.149 --> 00:09:28.529
So that explains the huge workload. I mean, you

00:09:28.529 --> 00:09:30.690
can't get to meet these children personally.

00:09:30.730 --> 00:09:33.649
You can't know their accounts and their needs

00:09:33.649 --> 00:09:36.169
personally. You have to just go on what's on

00:09:36.169 --> 00:09:37.889
paper and what SEND codes are providing, what

00:09:37.889 --> 00:09:39.830
teachers are providing, what evidence is there

00:09:39.830 --> 00:09:42.330
in front of them, and they can make a decision.

00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:46.120
ultimately they can't it's not like oh i don't

00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:48.899
like you you know it's not personal it is just

00:09:48.899 --> 00:09:51.500
we've got this budget have they given enough

00:09:51.500 --> 00:09:53.970
evidence For it to be, for them to be eligible,

00:09:54.230 --> 00:09:56.649
yes, no. It almost has to be as simple as that

00:09:56.649 --> 00:09:58.669
for them, doesn't it? So yeah, let's take the

00:09:58.669 --> 00:10:00.570
heat off of them for a second. It is an incredibly,

00:10:00.570 --> 00:10:03.929
incredibly hard job. So let's go section by section

00:10:03.929 --> 00:10:05.649
because if parents and teachers are listening,

00:10:05.730 --> 00:10:08.710
you know, I do annual reviews to my HTPs. I'd

00:10:08.710 --> 00:10:11.610
love to know more about, you know, am I doing

00:10:11.610 --> 00:10:13.570
the right thing and am I putting the things in

00:10:13.570 --> 00:10:15.090
the right places? I'm sure Senko is listening

00:10:15.090 --> 00:10:16.870
and teachers listening would love to know that.

00:10:17.250 --> 00:10:19.330
But then also there's parents out there that...

00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:21.559
are part of those reviews and they need to know

00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:25.220
what to look for and how to spot things that

00:10:25.220 --> 00:10:27.080
aren't in the right places or that need to be

00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:29.679
added. And there are also parents that are yet

00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:33.240
to start this process yet that have a toddler

00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:35.500
or two -year -old, three, four -year -old, you

00:10:35.500 --> 00:10:37.220
know, ready to start school and they're just

00:10:37.220 --> 00:10:40.080
kind of starting this, oh God, the children,

00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:42.679
you know, the setting isn't meeting their needs

00:10:42.679 --> 00:10:45.480
or they're needing some extra support and they're

00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:47.440
starting. It'll be really great for them to know

00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:52.200
right from the off. what to look for. Okay so

00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:54.919
section A is obviously the first bit on an EHCP

00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:58.019
and the idea behind section A is that it's to

00:10:58.019 --> 00:11:00.519
set up the child's views where they're able to

00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:04.080
give them or sort of a parent or carer giving

00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:06.559
them on their behalf and it's also where the

00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:08.559
parents views would go. You would think this

00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:11.899
is fairly straightforward section but quite often

00:11:11.899 --> 00:11:15.360
what local authorities would do is they'll put

00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:17.620
information in Section A that they don't want

00:11:17.620 --> 00:11:19.960
to put elsewhere in the plan and they'll say

00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:22.159
to the parent look it's in the plan we'll pop

00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:25.059
it in Section A so it's there is that okay and

00:11:25.059 --> 00:11:26.440
the parent thinks well yeah sure it's in the

00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:28.039
plan so that that's that's what that matters

00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:30.580
it's in the plan but as we go through the rest

00:11:30.580 --> 00:11:33.460
of the sections we'll go through why actually

00:11:33.460 --> 00:11:35.899
that makes a big difference and essentially what

00:11:35.899 --> 00:11:38.179
I would be saying is that Section A shouldn't

00:11:38.179 --> 00:11:41.450
be having any information that's detailed about

00:11:41.450 --> 00:11:44.289
the provision or about the child's special educational

00:11:44.289 --> 00:11:47.490
needs. Sometimes they refer to expert reports

00:11:47.490 --> 00:11:50.070
so sometimes parents might have gone and got

00:11:50.070 --> 00:11:52.769
independent expert reports and local authority

00:11:52.769 --> 00:11:56.090
may not want to include stuff from the independent

00:11:56.090 --> 00:11:58.789
report in the sort of the rest of the EHCP so

00:11:58.789 --> 00:12:00.789
sometimes they'll say we'll just pop it in A

00:12:00.789 --> 00:12:03.529
because it's in there but that is the local authority

00:12:03.529 --> 00:12:06.419
essentially saying we don't agree. with what

00:12:06.419 --> 00:12:08.139
you're asking us to put in and we're just putting

00:12:08.139 --> 00:12:11.200
it in section a so that you're happy section

00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:14.799
a has no legal enforceability to it you can't

00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:17.700
appeal to the tribunal against section a so section

00:12:17.700 --> 00:12:20.019
a whilst it's really important because it has

00:12:20.019 --> 00:12:22.639
the child and young person's views and the parents

00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:25.059
views that's all it should have it shouldn't

00:12:25.059 --> 00:12:27.740
have anything else in there okay that's really

00:12:27.740 --> 00:12:30.759
interesting because often if a child if a parent

00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:34.129
wants to appeal something that is often where

00:12:34.129 --> 00:12:36.769
it goes is in that section so that's really interesting

00:12:36.769 --> 00:12:38.889
that's really useful to know. And there's nothing

00:12:38.889 --> 00:12:41.529
to say that you know you can't ask for amendments

00:12:41.529 --> 00:12:43.870
in section A when you're appealing because when

00:12:43.870 --> 00:12:45.669
you do an appeal and you're appealing against

00:12:45.669 --> 00:12:47.730
the contents of the plan you do submit called

00:12:47.730 --> 00:12:50.269
a working document which is a word version of

00:12:50.269 --> 00:12:53.490
the EHCP you go in and you make changes to it

00:12:53.490 --> 00:12:54.970
and say look this is what we want it to look

00:12:54.970 --> 00:12:56.789
like and there's nothing to stop you saying to

00:12:56.789 --> 00:12:58.610
the local authority look we want these changes

00:12:58.610 --> 00:13:01.629
in section A at the same time. but if you don't

00:13:01.629 --> 00:13:04.169
get those changes agreed the tribunal won't look

00:13:04.169 --> 00:13:07.649
at them so it's really important to know that

00:13:07.649 --> 00:13:10.450
actually any chance for any changes you've got

00:13:10.450 --> 00:13:12.149
are basically through the goodwill of the local

00:13:12.149 --> 00:13:14.190
authority because you're not going to get tribunal

00:13:14.190 --> 00:13:17.269
just look at that okay interesting okay that's

00:13:17.269 --> 00:13:20.090
really really useful to know for section a because

00:13:20.090 --> 00:13:23.529
often that's the bit that um regularly gets up

00:13:23.529 --> 00:13:26.549
you know a full update every year so that's interesting

00:13:27.159 --> 00:13:30.179
yeah and we see some that are sort of up to 15

00:13:30.179 --> 00:13:33.019
pages long because you know special families

00:13:33.019 --> 00:13:34.879
have got these really good independent reports

00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:37.340
and they're wanting huge chunks of the information

00:13:37.340 --> 00:13:40.179
included it's like local authorities just do

00:13:40.179 --> 00:13:43.679
that to try and appease them but as i said parents

00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:46.539
don't necessarily realize that that means that

00:13:46.539 --> 00:13:47.980
they're essentially saying we don't agree with

00:13:47.980 --> 00:13:51.519
this yeah section that has no bite to it so yeah

00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:55.289
how would they know it's Yeah, it's so important,

00:13:55.409 --> 00:13:57.789
isn't it? Okay, so that's section A. That's important.

00:13:57.929 --> 00:14:01.490
That's good to know. I suppose equally as important,

00:14:01.610 --> 00:14:04.129
even though it's not legally binding, it's really

00:14:04.129 --> 00:14:06.450
crucial that parents do give their correspondence.

00:14:07.090 --> 00:14:10.679
I've had a few meetings. where parents have been

00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:12.779
a bit hesitant to or it's been a bit lacking

00:14:12.779 --> 00:14:15.500
in what's really going on it's been quite thin

00:14:15.500 --> 00:14:17.639
and actually yes okay it may not be legally binding

00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:19.340
but it's still really important for things like

00:14:19.340 --> 00:14:21.700
transitions from class to class or school to

00:14:21.700 --> 00:14:24.080
school it gives so much information there about

00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:27.299
the child and family's journey through the years

00:14:27.299 --> 00:14:30.659
and you can see the previous correspondence all

00:14:30.659 --> 00:14:33.419
throughout the years as part of the document

00:14:33.419 --> 00:14:35.759
so it's it's really useful as a new teacher or

00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:39.110
a new SENCO that's taking on that child. to have

00:14:39.110 --> 00:14:40.470
that information so even though it's not legally

00:14:40.470 --> 00:14:42.549
binding it's really it really tells a really

00:14:42.549 --> 00:14:44.929
good picture of the story and the child i would

00:14:44.929 --> 00:14:47.809
say is really it's a really important section

00:14:47.809 --> 00:14:50.470
because of those views and there are times where

00:14:50.470 --> 00:14:51.850
sometimes we'll say look the local authority

00:14:51.850 --> 00:14:54.830
will only put it in a technically it should be

00:14:54.830 --> 00:14:57.529
saying b but sometimes you will just agree to

00:14:57.529 --> 00:15:00.029
the odd thing going in a as a concession because

00:15:00.029 --> 00:15:02.110
it you're right it's better than not having it

00:15:02.330 --> 00:15:04.450
anything because people are going to be seeing

00:15:04.450 --> 00:15:06.889
it as the first thing they read in the EHCP and

00:15:06.889 --> 00:15:09.490
so sometimes you'll say it's not great but we'll

00:15:09.490 --> 00:15:12.190
agree to it. I think my concern comes when local

00:15:12.190 --> 00:15:14.610
authorities are doing it on vast amounts of information

00:15:14.610 --> 00:15:18.149
in the hope of just appeasing parents out of

00:15:18.149 --> 00:15:21.610
appealing about trying to make the EHCP tighter

00:15:21.610 --> 00:15:24.929
which is one of those things that section 8 is

00:15:24.929 --> 00:15:27.789
always worthwhile checking to see actually if

00:15:27.789 --> 00:15:30.350
all of that stuff should be in there. Great okay

00:15:30.350 --> 00:15:36.580
fantastic. Okay, so section B is the educational

00:15:36.580 --> 00:15:38.740
needs of the child. So any special educational

00:15:38.740 --> 00:15:42.779
needs should be described in section B. They

00:15:42.779 --> 00:15:45.940
need to be detailed so that it's clear to anybody

00:15:45.940 --> 00:15:49.440
reading what that child's needs are. There is

00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:53.639
no set way in how any of these sections should

00:15:53.639 --> 00:15:56.659
be set out. Currently, there is discussion about

00:15:56.659 --> 00:15:58.419
that potentially changing as part of sort of

00:15:58.419 --> 00:16:00.259
wider changes that have been discussed, but as

00:16:00.259 --> 00:16:03.960
it stands. apart from the specific sections which

00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:06.399
we're going through there isn't any template

00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:08.700
on how they are meant to draft that so local

00:16:08.700 --> 00:16:11.240
authorities do vary in how they set out section

00:16:11.240 --> 00:16:15.200
b and kind of the subheadings that they use within

00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:17.860
that one thing to look out for with section b

00:16:17.860 --> 00:16:22.240
is the word parent report Local authorities quite

00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:24.799
often use that as a way of saying we don't agree

00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:27.000
that there's this need, it hasn't been seen in

00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.240
school, there's no evidence but we're putting

00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:31.659
it in to basically keep parents happy. So parents

00:16:31.659 --> 00:16:34.360
report, ideally you don't want that wording in

00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:38.720
section B if you can help it. Section B should

00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:41.120
be relatively straightforward. Some of the stuff

00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:44.059
that is in section A may need to move into section

00:16:44.059 --> 00:16:47.179
B depending on how much local authorities put

00:16:47.179 --> 00:16:50.389
in. It is a section that can be appealed to the

00:16:50.389 --> 00:16:52.769
tribunal. It's not legally enforceable because

00:16:52.769 --> 00:16:54.870
it's only describing the child's needs, but it's

00:16:54.870 --> 00:16:57.470
the kind of building blocks or the foundation

00:16:57.470 --> 00:17:01.389
for what will become the legally enforceable

00:17:01.389 --> 00:17:03.190
bit in Section F, which we'll come to in a bit.

00:17:03.330 --> 00:17:06.009
And it's also then when a local authority is

00:17:06.009 --> 00:17:08.690
naming a placement in Section I, they're meant

00:17:08.690 --> 00:17:11.210
to name a placement based on what can meet the

00:17:11.210 --> 00:17:13.990
needs described in Section B, provide the provision

00:17:13.990 --> 00:17:16.670
in Section F. So it's a really important sort

00:17:16.670 --> 00:17:20.210
of foundation to the EHCP to make sure that all

00:17:20.210 --> 00:17:23.410
the needs are described in Section B. Okay. And

00:17:23.410 --> 00:17:25.869
sometimes they're a bit sneaky and they put some

00:17:25.869 --> 00:17:29.150
in health and social care, which we'll go over

00:17:29.150 --> 00:17:32.630
in a moment. But it's just a case of making sure

00:17:32.630 --> 00:17:34.849
there's lots of detail in there, those needs

00:17:34.849 --> 00:17:38.250
are described. I know lots of children have ended

00:17:38.250 --> 00:17:40.730
up with EHCPs before they are actually officially

00:17:40.730 --> 00:17:43.339
diagnosed with. anything because it doesn't you

00:17:43.339 --> 00:17:46.059
don't need a diagnosis for an EHCP and just because

00:17:46.059 --> 00:17:48.220
of the long pathway for that as well it just

00:17:48.220 --> 00:17:50.079
it seems to be that children are on the pathway

00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:52.079
for I don't know an autism diagnosis for example

00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:54.019
or genetic diagnosis and they've gone through

00:17:54.019 --> 00:17:55.799
tests and they don't actually know you know what

00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:57.680
genetic disorder it is but it is something something

00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:00.140
like that they can still have an EHCP if they

00:18:00.140 --> 00:18:03.299
need that extra funding and extra support so

00:18:03.299 --> 00:18:06.319
in that case what would you put on section B

00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:10.940
if it's just thoughts and almost a it's not been

00:18:10.940 --> 00:18:13.680
proven almost would you just put the things that

00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:15.740
they're then struggling with or what you've noticed

00:18:15.740 --> 00:18:18.140
or do you put pathway to autism you know what

00:18:18.140 --> 00:18:22.140
what would you put there um you could put the

00:18:22.140 --> 00:18:25.779
pathway to autism in there what i would tend

00:18:25.779 --> 00:18:28.140
to find is it's actually the same information

00:18:28.140 --> 00:18:32.039
that would be going in um as you know compared

00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:34.099
to somebody with a diagnosis or without a diagnosis

00:18:34.099 --> 00:18:36.160
because just because somebody's got a diagnosis

00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:39.150
doesn't mean that they've got specific needs

00:18:39.150 --> 00:18:40.990
that display in a certain way every child is

00:18:40.990 --> 00:18:43.029
different their needs present differently even

00:18:43.029 --> 00:18:46.009
children with the same diagnosis so you are always

00:18:46.009 --> 00:18:48.730
going to see that actually yes sometimes they

00:18:48.730 --> 00:18:52.190
refer to the diagnosis but that isn't telling

00:18:52.190 --> 00:18:53.630
you what their needs are so you're always going

00:18:53.630 --> 00:18:55.390
to get that description and that's always going

00:18:55.390 --> 00:18:58.349
to be based on what evidence there is what evidence

00:18:58.349 --> 00:19:01.589
has been gathered as part of that EHC needs assessment

00:19:01.589 --> 00:19:04.450
now when you've got younger children and perhaps

00:19:04.450 --> 00:19:08.390
children who are still going through that diagnosis

00:19:08.390 --> 00:19:12.250
process then there may be less information and

00:19:12.250 --> 00:19:14.390
in that if that's the scenario then you're probably

00:19:14.390 --> 00:19:16.130
going to be relying more on things like school

00:19:16.130 --> 00:19:20.029
observations what school are saying um any experts

00:19:20.029 --> 00:19:21.990
if we've got an educational psychology assessment

00:19:21.990 --> 00:19:24.130
which really should be done as part of an EHC

00:19:24.130 --> 00:19:26.329
needs assessment so there should be things that

00:19:26.329 --> 00:19:29.109
they should be gathering in terms of evidence

00:19:29.109 --> 00:19:31.589
that can help detail that so from my point of

00:19:31.589 --> 00:19:35.339
view whilst the diagnosis is good to have it

00:19:35.339 --> 00:19:37.380
actually makes no difference to the the kind

00:19:37.380 --> 00:19:38.740
of the level of information that we're going

00:19:38.740 --> 00:19:40.759
to section b yeah it makes sense to me because

00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:42.920
just because somebody has autism it really doesn't

00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:45.420
mean much at all you know i've had children with

00:19:45.420 --> 00:19:49.619
autism that have taken their gcses and i've got

00:19:49.619 --> 00:19:51.799
children with autism that are learning to count

00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:54.519
to three you know like as far as and or a safe

00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:57.079
on the road or is quite independent or a verbal

00:19:57.079 --> 00:19:59.940
non -speaking you know it doesn't really mean

00:19:59.940 --> 00:20:01.619
anything about what funding and support they

00:20:01.619 --> 00:20:03.599
need and ultimately that's what the hdp is isn't

00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:08.680
it Is it also important in Section B to put all

00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:11.259
the things they can't do, all the things they

00:20:11.259 --> 00:20:14.839
can do, or a bit of both? That's a really important

00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:17.420
question, actually. Actually, this is reminding

00:20:17.420 --> 00:20:19.059
me that I should have distinguished something

00:20:19.059 --> 00:20:23.440
at the start. Section B is split into the needs

00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:25.220
and the strengths. And actually, when I said

00:20:25.220 --> 00:20:27.079
Section B is appealable, it's only actually the

00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:29.960
need part of Section B that's appealable. So

00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:33.009
the strengths part isn't appealable. It's a bit

00:20:33.009 --> 00:20:35.490
like Section A, you can ask for changes to it

00:20:35.490 --> 00:20:37.809
as part of the working document process and hope

00:20:37.809 --> 00:20:39.890
that the local authority will agree to them but

00:20:39.890 --> 00:20:41.690
strictly speaking when the tribunal looks at

00:20:41.690 --> 00:20:43.569
it they're only going to be looking at the needs

00:20:43.569 --> 00:20:46.930
section. Now I completely appreciate for a parent

00:20:46.930 --> 00:20:50.569
it's a bit probably uncomfortable to be focusing

00:20:50.569 --> 00:20:54.109
on the difficulties your child has and in particular

00:20:54.109 --> 00:20:56.269
when parents are new to the system they want

00:20:56.269 --> 00:20:57.710
to put a lot of focus into what the strengths

00:20:57.710 --> 00:21:00.549
are. But if you make the strengths top heavy,

00:21:00.670 --> 00:21:02.450
then you are going to struggle to get the provision

00:21:02.450 --> 00:21:04.769
that is needed. So the important thing about

00:21:04.769 --> 00:21:07.269
these EHCPs, yes, it's important to acknowledge

00:21:07.269 --> 00:21:09.549
their strengths. And strengths can be useful

00:21:09.549 --> 00:21:12.230
to tell us kind of they've got a strength using

00:21:12.230 --> 00:21:14.309
this one system, for instance, or this one strategy.

00:21:14.410 --> 00:21:16.230
And that could be really important for helping

00:21:16.230 --> 00:21:19.349
you sort of teach. But actually what is going

00:21:19.349 --> 00:21:21.089
to be really important is actually just focusing

00:21:21.089 --> 00:21:24.839
on that needs section. and focusing on what they

00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:26.900
can't do and the difficulties they have which

00:21:26.900 --> 00:21:28.859
I completely appreciate is not a comfortable

00:21:28.859 --> 00:21:32.319
thing to do but if you are not quite blunt about

00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:34.539
that then you're going to struggle to get the

00:21:34.539 --> 00:21:36.759
provision that you actually need for that trial.

00:21:37.280 --> 00:21:39.420
And is that things they can't do in comparison

00:21:39.420 --> 00:21:42.759
to their chronological age, like typically would

00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:44.119
be doing? Because I suppose if you're doing it

00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:45.880
for a two -year -old, you'd have very different

00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:48.279
expectations with or without, you know, needs

00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:50.519
as you would with a 13 -year -old you were doing

00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:52.180
it to be. So would you kind of think, well, what

00:21:52.180 --> 00:21:54.740
would a typical two -year -old be doing at that

00:21:54.740 --> 00:21:57.470
point? what is this two -year -old not able to

00:21:57.470 --> 00:21:59.470
do or what do they need extra support to access

00:21:59.470 --> 00:22:01.210
is is that kind of the right way of thinking

00:22:01.210 --> 00:22:04.170
about it some of it is that and sometimes we

00:22:04.170 --> 00:22:07.269
see in section b about them being delayed and

00:22:07.269 --> 00:22:09.910
hitting milestones or there being a gap between

00:22:09.910 --> 00:22:12.029
them and their peers and perhaps that gap is

00:22:12.029 --> 00:22:14.349
widening but actually what you also have to think

00:22:14.349 --> 00:22:17.190
about as well is actually what is that child

00:22:17.190 --> 00:22:19.450
or young person's potential because it may be

00:22:19.450 --> 00:22:23.470
that they're currently at a certain level um

00:22:23.470 --> 00:22:27.259
and that might not actually be seen to be out

00:22:27.259 --> 00:22:29.559
of kilter with their peers it might be that they're

00:22:29.559 --> 00:22:32.640
actually on paper doing really well but they

00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:35.359
may have potential to do even better yes and

00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:37.759
that's another thing that needs to be kind of

00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:40.740
considered is you are not meeting somebody's

00:22:40.740 --> 00:22:43.980
needs say somebody who is high functioning you're

00:22:43.980 --> 00:22:45.740
not meeting their needs if you're not helping

00:22:45.740 --> 00:22:49.200
them reach their potential I'm really pleased

00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:51.359
you said that and in all areas as well yes they

00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:53.660
could you know I can just imagine pupils at the

00:22:53.660 --> 00:22:55.819
moment in my school actually they've read a million

00:22:55.819 --> 00:22:59.859
words in a year and they are incredible in so

00:22:59.859 --> 00:23:02.279
many ways you know their memory is just incredible

00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:05.279
but they really struggle to understand when they're

00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:08.460
hot and cold or they go to the toilet or they

00:23:08.460 --> 00:23:11.400
are completely vulnerable to peer pressure or

00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:13.079
strangers because they just believe everything

00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:15.759
they're told so yes there are those strengths

00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:18.400
but actually And they are way above their peers

00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:21.700
academically. However, they still are eligible

00:23:21.700 --> 00:23:23.819
for this EHCP to keep them safe and to keep them

00:23:23.819 --> 00:23:26.359
thriving and to reach their full potential, which

00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:28.680
is maybe far beyond what a typical eight -year

00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:30.700
-old would be doing. So I'm really pleased you

00:23:30.700 --> 00:23:32.940
said that. And they're still eligible for an

00:23:32.940 --> 00:23:37.359
EHCP. Yeah, but the reality is if a child is

00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:39.759
doing relatively well academically, it's always

00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:41.900
going to be harder to get an EHCP because...

00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:44.640
Quite often the schools and the local authority

00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:47.460
will just see that that child actually academically,

00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:49.980
they're in line with peers, they're not causing

00:23:49.980 --> 00:23:52.980
any trouble in the classroom. So those types

00:23:52.980 --> 00:23:55.460
of cases, so we see quite often high functioning

00:23:55.460 --> 00:23:58.980
dyslexia cases in particular, where parents are

00:23:58.980 --> 00:24:00.960
struggling because actually the local authority

00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:03.460
is failing to think about all the other needs

00:24:03.460 --> 00:24:05.700
that that child has. It's not just limited to

00:24:05.700 --> 00:24:09.559
academic needs. um and you've quite rightly pointed

00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:11.279
out you know there are other areas of litany

00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:15.380
social communication physical and sensory social

00:24:15.380 --> 00:24:17.740
and emotional and all these are areas that local

00:24:17.740 --> 00:24:19.759
authorities should be taking into consideration

00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:22.319
when they're deciding whether or not to do an

00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:23.819
assessment when they're deciding whether or not

00:24:23.819 --> 00:24:25.680
to issue a plan but also when they're drafting

00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:28.799
that plan yeah and in that case i suppose If

00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:31.240
the parents are concerned with what they're seeing

00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:33.440
at home or in the local community, you know,

00:24:33.460 --> 00:24:34.900
maybe they're not seeing at school, maybe they're

00:24:34.900 --> 00:24:37.940
masking at school, keep that evidence, keep anything

00:24:37.940 --> 00:24:40.339
you've got written, any assessment reports or

00:24:40.339 --> 00:24:43.299
anything, just because when they are 12, 13,

00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:46.240
14, they might not be coping as well at school,

00:24:46.339 --> 00:24:48.180
quite obviously, and then you've got all that

00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:51.119
evidence to back up when you are eligible for

00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:54.119
that EHCP. Yeah, and also in particular if you've

00:24:54.119 --> 00:24:56.079
got a child that's perhaps masking at school

00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:58.319
and then almost sort of exploding when they get

00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:00.440
home. I've heard parents describe their children

00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:01.940
as being like a bottle of fizzy pop that's sort

00:25:01.940 --> 00:25:04.119
of been shaking all day and just explodes open

00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:06.140
at the end of the day when they get home. Those

00:25:06.140 --> 00:25:08.579
children, the schools are going to say, oh actually

00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:10.160
when they're in class they're fine, we don't

00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:12.019
see any problems. Whereas the parents are seeing

00:25:12.019 --> 00:25:15.380
all of these behavioural issues which is essentially

00:25:15.380 --> 00:25:17.680
a result of not being able to manage throughout

00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:19.920
the day. Yeah, not having their needs met. Yeah.

00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:22.519
maskings the school haven't realized and with

00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:24.779
those cases i quite often tell parents to start

00:25:24.779 --> 00:25:27.559
doing a log to say okay i picked them up at this

00:25:27.559 --> 00:25:30.180
time already by time we're in the car they were

00:25:30.180 --> 00:25:32.240
starting to have a meltdown or they were starting

00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:35.539
to show signs that they were um really really

00:25:35.539 --> 00:25:38.859
stressed and dysregulated um and then to keep

00:25:38.859 --> 00:25:40.559
a log of these things because then when you're

00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:43.339
going through the ehcp process you've got some

00:25:43.339 --> 00:25:45.500
evidence even if it's just a week or two to say

00:25:45.500 --> 00:25:50.490
actually this is what i see And it gives the

00:25:50.490 --> 00:25:53.029
school, the local authority, an insight into

00:25:53.029 --> 00:25:54.650
what's happening when that child's not at school.

00:25:54.750 --> 00:25:57.109
And if you've got something like a log, yes,

00:25:57.130 --> 00:25:58.750
they may not accept it because it's evidence.

00:25:59.089 --> 00:26:02.609
But it's hard evidence. It's written there. Rather

00:26:02.609 --> 00:26:04.170
than just parents saying, well, you don't see

00:26:04.170 --> 00:26:06.069
what they're like at home. If you spell it out

00:26:06.069 --> 00:26:08.069
to them, that can sometimes help. Absolutely.

00:26:08.109 --> 00:26:10.250
Well, it won't hurt, certainly, will it? Amazing.

00:26:10.329 --> 00:26:12.609
It might support the HGP process. It might support

00:26:12.609 --> 00:26:14.049
the same code put in support in place. It might

00:26:14.049 --> 00:26:15.589
support the teacher understanding. You know,

00:26:15.589 --> 00:26:19.529
I really hope that. When a teacher or a SENCO

00:26:19.529 --> 00:26:21.690
is receiving evidence like that from a parent,

00:26:21.769 --> 00:26:23.829
it's really taken seriously and it's believed

00:26:23.829 --> 00:26:25.789
and they're putting supports in place. With or

00:26:25.789 --> 00:26:27.509
without an EACP, you can put supports in place.

00:26:27.710 --> 00:26:29.650
Sometimes you don't need any funding in order

00:26:29.650 --> 00:26:32.269
to put those things in place. Amazing, that's

00:26:32.269 --> 00:26:34.509
section B, that's really important. So it's the

00:26:34.509 --> 00:26:37.490
needs to focus on, that's the binding bit. And

00:26:37.490 --> 00:26:39.009
yes, it might feel really uncomfortable, but

00:26:39.009 --> 00:26:42.890
just like your DLA forms, you know, you have

00:26:42.890 --> 00:26:47.150
to just... swallow your heart and your you know

00:26:47.150 --> 00:26:50.549
how emotional it is and really think about what

00:26:50.549 --> 00:26:52.869
what you're doing for them daily and often parents

00:26:52.869 --> 00:26:55.250
do things naturally they've they've been doing

00:26:55.250 --> 00:26:58.009
this a long time and you forget oh yeah I don't

00:26:58.009 --> 00:26:59.910
they don't ever ask for a drink or they yeah

00:26:59.910 --> 00:27:01.349
I do have to remind them to go to the toilet

00:27:01.349 --> 00:27:02.890
because you've just got into habit so sometimes

00:27:02.890 --> 00:27:05.309
it's really important to also talk about to extended

00:27:05.309 --> 00:27:07.690
family or friends because they might notice things

00:27:07.690 --> 00:27:09.470
that you don't even notice that you're doing

00:27:09.470 --> 00:27:12.289
yeah and that's a good point because actually

00:27:13.369 --> 00:27:15.750
parents just get on with it they they do the

00:27:15.750 --> 00:27:19.390
best they can they yeah and and you know some

00:27:19.390 --> 00:27:22.009
of the parents that we work with are sort of

00:27:22.009 --> 00:27:23.910
superheroes themselves like the stuff that they

00:27:23.910 --> 00:27:26.950
just pick up they do it's like like it's just

00:27:26.950 --> 00:27:28.970
to do yeah and they just get so into the habit

00:27:28.970 --> 00:27:31.390
of it i don't think they even realize you know

00:27:31.390 --> 00:27:35.069
what how much they're actually doing for their

00:27:35.069 --> 00:27:38.089
children yeah okay that's section b amazing okay

00:27:38.089 --> 00:27:41.930
so section c is the start of our kind of tricky

00:27:41.930 --> 00:27:44.970
sections. And the tricky bits are basically health

00:27:44.970 --> 00:27:47.750
and social care. So Section C is where the health

00:27:47.750 --> 00:27:50.450
needs are meant to be recorded. And what we quite

00:27:50.450 --> 00:27:53.730
often see is local authorities being a bit naughty

00:27:53.730 --> 00:27:57.230
and they're putting into Section C needs relating

00:27:57.230 --> 00:28:02.150
to sensory, gross motor, speech and language.

00:28:02.529 --> 00:28:06.009
Now, if you think about those needs, then you

00:28:06.009 --> 00:28:08.309
could say, well, arguably there might be a health

00:28:08.309 --> 00:28:11.619
link to them. but they are deemed to be educational

00:28:11.619 --> 00:28:14.480
needs we've got lots of case law that says that

00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:17.619
these kind of things are a special educational

00:28:17.619 --> 00:28:21.339
need so they have to go into section b and the

00:28:21.339 --> 00:28:23.440
reason again what's really important is going

00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:25.259
back to that point about section b being like

00:28:25.259 --> 00:28:28.359
a building block and if those needs relate stay

00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:31.259
in section c when we get to the provision section

00:28:31.980 --> 00:28:34.700
then they don't normally get transferred over

00:28:34.700 --> 00:28:38.579
to the education provision. And so what we want

00:28:38.579 --> 00:28:41.660
to avoid doing is having those needs recorded

00:28:41.660 --> 00:28:45.759
as health needs. And I would always fight a local

00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:49.019
authority if I see them, anything in the slightest

00:28:49.019 --> 00:28:52.839
about them in Section C. Sometimes we see duplications,

00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:56.069
so they're in B and C. they don't need to be

00:28:56.069 --> 00:28:59.009
duplicated and actually EHCPs need to try and

00:28:59.009 --> 00:29:01.029
avoid duplication because if you think about

00:29:01.029 --> 00:29:02.490
it some of these things could go into various

00:29:02.490 --> 00:29:05.410
different sections and your document would be

00:29:05.410 --> 00:29:08.029
100 pages long you know if you keep duplicating

00:29:08.029 --> 00:29:09.849
things so you want to keep it nice and simple

00:29:09.849 --> 00:29:14.150
so my biggest piece of advice is if you see anything

00:29:14.150 --> 00:29:16.650
in relation to speech and language communication

00:29:16.650 --> 00:29:21.730
interaction and gross motor skills sensory needs

00:29:21.730 --> 00:29:25.660
should be only appeal it you can appeal to the

00:29:25.660 --> 00:29:29.519
tribunal against section c but when the tribunal

00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:33.059
makes their decision so be section b when they

00:29:33.059 --> 00:29:34.640
make their decision they're making a legally

00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:36.960
binding order to say these are the amendments

00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:39.740
that are needed to section b when it comes to

00:29:39.740 --> 00:29:41.740
section c they can only make recommendations

00:29:41.740 --> 00:29:45.279
which means that the um they don't need to be

00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.619
complied with on the whole we find authorities

00:29:48.619 --> 00:29:50.660
do comply with that. So it's just being aware

00:29:50.660 --> 00:29:52.680
that technically there's a difference in power

00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:54.960
and what the tribunal can do with educational

00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:58.940
needs. To be really clear about what is covered

00:29:58.940 --> 00:30:00.900
under health, I suppose, is it all of the things

00:30:00.900 --> 00:30:03.259
that you would see a nurse, a GP or a paediatrician

00:30:03.259 --> 00:30:06.180
about that would go in the health section? Yeah,

00:30:06.220 --> 00:30:07.779
so if somebody's got like a heart condition,

00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:10.559
I'd expect that to be in there. If they've got

00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:13.359
allergies that impact, you know, severe nut allergy

00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:16.279
or something, if they've got asthma. And there

00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:18.519
may be some crossover because you might have

00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:21.240
somebody who's got diabetes, which is obviously

00:30:21.240 --> 00:30:24.339
a medical condition, but diabetes will have an

00:30:24.339 --> 00:30:26.880
impact on a child or young person's education.

00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:29.900
So you would also expect to see in section B

00:30:29.900 --> 00:30:33.589
a description of those needs arising. because

00:30:33.589 --> 00:30:37.170
of the diet the diabetes so sometimes it's fine

00:30:37.170 --> 00:30:39.410
to have duplication but what i would be expecting

00:30:39.410 --> 00:30:41.869
when there is duplication is for section b to

00:30:41.869 --> 00:30:44.150
basically have all the detail to explain these

00:30:44.150 --> 00:30:46.190
are all the ways it impacts on their education

00:30:46.190 --> 00:30:51.029
and then section c just to simply say what about

00:30:51.029 --> 00:30:56.230
something like incontinence so where would that

00:30:56.230 --> 00:31:00.900
fall i would put that in Yeah, that's a need

00:31:00.900 --> 00:31:03.779
rather than a health need. Unless it is about

00:31:03.779 --> 00:31:08.339
something, like an actual physical health reason,

00:31:08.680 --> 00:31:12.420
it would go in needs. I would say, yeah. And

00:31:12.420 --> 00:31:14.940
the difficulty is, is there is nothing saying

00:31:14.940 --> 00:31:17.920
what all these different things need to go into.

00:31:18.650 --> 00:31:20.910
So it is sometimes that there's a difference

00:31:20.910 --> 00:31:23.069
of opinion and it may be that, for instance,

00:31:23.150 --> 00:31:25.349
a tribunal judge might decide that something

00:31:25.349 --> 00:31:27.670
needs to go somewhere that I disagree with. You

00:31:27.670 --> 00:31:29.269
know, these things happen because there is an

00:31:29.269 --> 00:31:31.210
A prescribed list. And when we're looking at

00:31:31.210 --> 00:31:34.670
whether things are educational or not educational,

00:31:34.910 --> 00:31:37.950
you are looking at the very case specific details

00:31:37.950 --> 00:31:40.089
because every child is different. All of the

00:31:40.089 --> 00:31:42.109
needs are different. And that's why there isn't

00:31:42.109 --> 00:31:45.049
anything in law saying. these must go in B these

00:31:45.049 --> 00:31:47.769
must go in C and there's no clear -cut answer

00:31:47.769 --> 00:31:50.210
to it and from the case law we have you know

00:31:50.210 --> 00:31:52.410
it describes there being a fine line between

00:31:52.410 --> 00:31:54.730
this definition of what's educational and what's

00:31:54.730 --> 00:31:57.089
not and it's a case of looking at actually what

00:31:57.089 --> 00:32:00.410
is the reason for that incontinence how is it

00:32:00.410 --> 00:32:04.279
impacting on their day And actually, I would

00:32:04.279 --> 00:32:06.440
probably, in the majority of cases, say that

00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:08.880
needs to be in section B. Yeah, and then something

00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:11.900
a bit more like epilepsy might be duplicated

00:32:11.900 --> 00:32:14.140
because the epilepsy would be affecting them

00:32:14.140 --> 00:32:15.819
in their education. It would have to go and be

00:32:15.819 --> 00:32:18.920
in needs. Obviously, if they're having vacancies

00:32:18.920 --> 00:32:23.200
or if they are missing school even because of

00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:26.180
their epilepsy or up at night, then that would

00:32:26.180 --> 00:32:29.319
be an absolute educational need. But then a little

00:32:29.319 --> 00:32:31.500
sentence about... you know they have nighttime

00:32:31.500 --> 00:32:34.079
seizures or or they are on vacation for this

00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:36.980
yeah yeah because because there will be a medical

00:32:36.980 --> 00:32:39.279
element in that they will probably need medication

00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:43.059
and they might even have a health care plan separate

00:32:43.059 --> 00:32:46.019
to the EHCP saying that when they have a seizure

00:32:46.019 --> 00:32:49.059
these are the steps that you need to take but

00:32:49.059 --> 00:32:50.920
you're absolutely right the way that it impacts

00:32:50.920 --> 00:32:53.740
on education so if they've been at seizing all

00:32:53.740 --> 00:32:56.519
night they're likely to be tired um going to

00:32:56.519 --> 00:32:58.819
impact on their ability to learn people have

00:32:58.819 --> 00:33:01.039
seizures more frequently if they are stressed

00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:03.240
or if they're tired so again those are things

00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:07.099
to be flagging in section b so you want to have

00:33:07.099 --> 00:33:09.200
as much of the information as possible in section

00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:11.460
b so that's really helpful that's really helpful

00:33:11.460 --> 00:33:13.859
and i suppose all of this is evidence in section

00:33:13.859 --> 00:33:17.799
c with links to like the actual reports actual

00:33:17.799 --> 00:33:21.200
or is it just you simply just write it so I would

00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:23.759
just put in Section C, say the example of epilepsy,

00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:27.740
I would just put epilepsy. If there's any further

00:33:27.740 --> 00:33:30.140
information about the type of seizures they have,

00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:33.539
then maybe put that into C. But all the bits

00:33:33.539 --> 00:33:35.720
that impact on their education where you're saying,

00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:38.359
well, because they have this diagnosis, these

00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:40.859
are the difficulties they're having. All of that,

00:33:40.859 --> 00:33:42.680
from my perspective, would go into Section B.

00:33:42.839 --> 00:33:46.640
Great. Okay. Fantastic. Section C. Fantastic.

00:33:47.460 --> 00:33:50.920
Section D is a bit like... see in that it's a

00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:52.859
bit of a tricky one and you need to keep an eye

00:33:52.859 --> 00:33:55.220
on it in particular if you've got older children

00:33:55.220 --> 00:33:57.740
and young people because this is the section

00:33:57.740 --> 00:34:01.660
that looks at social care needs in particular

00:34:01.660 --> 00:34:04.000
when you've got young people and you're potentially

00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:07.319
considering them going into some kind of residential

00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:12.320
school you will be likely saying in section b

00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:15.400
that they have difficulties with daily living

00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:18.900
skills independence these are things that perhaps

00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:22.440
a 20 year old would typically start learning

00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:25.380
when they go to university or move out of home

00:34:25.380 --> 00:34:29.760
and some young people have difficulty sort of

00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:31.900
learning and they need to receive education and

00:34:31.900 --> 00:34:34.820
training specifically to help with those areas

00:34:34.820 --> 00:34:38.480
of need so those are those needs themselves would

00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:42.099
be in section b but quite often local authorities

00:34:42.099 --> 00:34:45.690
will write those in section dates so and it potentially

00:34:45.690 --> 00:34:47.789
is because of the way this all builds and it

00:34:47.789 --> 00:34:49.869
may be a deliberate decision to class and the

00:34:49.869 --> 00:34:51.889
social care needs because then they can argue

00:34:51.889 --> 00:34:53.929
that a residential school placement isn't needed

00:34:53.929 --> 00:34:56.849
for instance but a bit like how thigh would be

00:34:56.849 --> 00:34:58.710
saying that as much of the information about

00:34:58.710 --> 00:35:01.190
how they have difficulties in those specific

00:35:01.190 --> 00:35:05.639
areas they should be going in section b Sometimes

00:35:05.639 --> 00:35:07.860
we also see the local authorities putting provision

00:35:07.860 --> 00:35:11.199
in section D, which isn't right at all. It's

00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:13.480
a section that can be appealed to the tribunal.

00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:16.239
But again, like C, it's a section that the tribunal

00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:18.139
can only make recommendations on. They can't

00:35:18.139 --> 00:35:20.940
do a legally binding order on. But again, most

00:35:20.940 --> 00:35:23.260
local authorities will make any amendments to

00:35:23.260 --> 00:35:25.250
D. that come in that tribunal recommendation

00:35:25.250 --> 00:35:28.550
usually for section d i usually put if they've

00:35:28.550 --> 00:35:31.010
got a family worker i'll put that if they get

00:35:31.010 --> 00:35:34.110
respite care i'll put that if they have a social

00:35:34.110 --> 00:35:36.130
worker i'll put that or if they're adopted or

00:35:36.130 --> 00:35:38.909
under any kind of um social care register i'll

00:35:38.909 --> 00:35:41.570
i'll put that is there anything else i should

00:35:41.570 --> 00:35:44.429
be aware of about when thinking about what should

00:35:44.429 --> 00:35:47.610
go in there well some of the stuff you just mentioned

00:35:47.610 --> 00:35:50.130
is actually provision so you think about respite

00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:54.420
isn't a social care need necessarily it's potentially

00:35:54.420 --> 00:35:58.219
the provision so the need will normally be for

00:35:58.219 --> 00:36:00.500
the parents to have a break yeah or even for

00:36:00.500 --> 00:36:04.139
the the child or young person to have some kind

00:36:04.139 --> 00:36:08.239
of time outside the family unit um so respite's

00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:10.719
usually your provision and that's again you need

00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:12.360
to think about it the same way that you do with

00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:15.960
b is you're not thinking about what is needed

00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:20.070
at this stage you're just thinking actually what

00:36:20.070 --> 00:36:23.070
the difficulties are so you may see things like

00:36:23.070 --> 00:36:26.530
they are fully dependent on parents for all care

00:36:26.530 --> 00:36:29.309
which when they're younger isn't so bad being

00:36:29.309 --> 00:36:32.210
in section d but again when they get a bit older

00:36:32.210 --> 00:36:35.469
practically speaking it could help a local authority

00:36:35.469 --> 00:36:38.190
argue that they don't need a residential school

00:36:38.190 --> 00:36:40.489
placement if it stays there okay so if you're

00:36:40.489 --> 00:36:42.570
is it worth putting that when you're starting

00:36:42.570 --> 00:36:45.349
an ehcp with a younger one is it worth putting

00:36:45.349 --> 00:36:49.039
that because it's true so that it is there for

00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:51.119
when they still have it when they're older or

00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:52.739
is it something that will need to be added really

00:36:52.739 --> 00:36:56.079
when it becomes well I suppose if you've got

00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:58.420
someone who's really small then being totally

00:36:58.420 --> 00:37:02.519
dependent on their parents may not be a social

00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:04.639
care need it may just be because of their age

00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:08.559
and so you need to have a think about their age

00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:11.860
if you've got a 13 year old who's completely

00:37:11.860 --> 00:37:14.280
dependent on their parents then you would be

00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:15.900
saying well I should have a social care need

00:37:15.900 --> 00:37:19.400
yeah because okay they are of an age where they

00:37:19.400 --> 00:37:21.619
shouldn't necessarily have the independent skills

00:37:21.619 --> 00:37:24.000
to be able to do everything themselves but they

00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:25.940
also shouldn't be so fully dependent on their

00:37:25.940 --> 00:37:29.920
parents and when you are looking at section d

00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:33.360
you look at the wider family so you are able

00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:36.860
to take into consideration sort of the if the

00:37:36.860 --> 00:37:42.679
parents are having to look after a child 24 7

00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:45.300
and we have some some parents that do have to

00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:47.949
do that and in particular one of the reasons

00:37:47.949 --> 00:37:50.030
why it's important to consider things like this

00:37:50.030 --> 00:37:52.489
in the actual need is because when you get to

00:37:52.489 --> 00:37:55.150
the school holiday you've got children and young

00:37:55.150 --> 00:38:01.949
people at home 24 7 and again sections c and

00:38:01.949 --> 00:38:04.969
d build foundations for their counterparts in

00:38:04.969 --> 00:38:07.489
the provision sections you're going to want to

00:38:07.489 --> 00:38:09.570
make sure in particular if you've got a child

00:38:09.570 --> 00:38:12.449
that needs 24 7 care over the school holidays

00:38:12.449 --> 00:38:14.889
there may be an argument they don't need any

00:38:14.889 --> 00:38:18.130
education during the holidays but that you are

00:38:18.130 --> 00:38:19.989
going to need some social care support because

00:38:19.989 --> 00:38:22.989
you're going to need respite. You are going to

00:38:22.989 --> 00:38:25.889
want them to be able to go out and to, you know,

00:38:25.889 --> 00:38:27.809
go out into the community and do things that

00:38:27.809 --> 00:38:30.230
perhaps children their age might do independent

00:38:30.230 --> 00:38:33.170
of their family. And rather than thinking about

00:38:33.170 --> 00:38:34.869
the provision at this stage, you're going to

00:38:34.869 --> 00:38:38.170
be thinking about what needs underlie. Is that

00:38:38.170 --> 00:38:41.590
just if the child has needs? Because sometimes

00:38:41.590 --> 00:38:45.179
we have... layers of things in families where

00:38:45.179 --> 00:38:47.639
actually it isn't a social care need as far as

00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:50.139
the child's needs however the child is vulnerable

00:38:50.139 --> 00:38:54.519
do like within the social care realm because

00:38:54.519 --> 00:38:56.840
of maybe a parent's mental health or a parent's

00:38:56.840 --> 00:38:59.559
physical health or a lack of support network

00:38:59.559 --> 00:39:02.739
i suppose but that's not the child's i suppose

00:39:02.739 --> 00:39:04.659
it's impacting the child but it's not the child's

00:39:04.659 --> 00:39:07.219
stuff could that still go in there or does that

00:39:07.219 --> 00:39:10.820
go somewhere else so it could in theory go that

00:39:10.820 --> 00:39:13.719
but A parent might not be comfortable with that.

00:39:13.780 --> 00:39:16.599
I've seen an EHCP recently that referred to some

00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:19.599
private things about the parents and there was

00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:21.500
no need to make that reference to it. It didn't

00:39:21.500 --> 00:39:24.280
add anything to section D. So we actually said

00:39:24.280 --> 00:39:26.420
you should be removing that because that's not

00:39:26.420 --> 00:39:30.039
relevant to the child's needs. It doesn't impact

00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:32.360
on the child in any way. I don't really know

00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:34.900
why it was in there. So it's again, it's one

00:39:34.900 --> 00:39:38.219
of those sections where. or actually the whole

00:39:38.219 --> 00:39:40.719
of EHCPs, you have to consider the individual

00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:44.920
circumstances. There's no blanket policy on what

00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:47.219
should and shouldn't be in there and how much

00:39:47.219 --> 00:39:51.239
of a parent sort of need should impact on that.

00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:55.579
But arguably, if a child is, say, fully dependent

00:39:55.579 --> 00:39:59.760
on the parent, but the parent... has their own

00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:02.099
difficulties then that's the kind of thing that

00:40:02.099 --> 00:40:05.039
you maybe see worked into section d but again

00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:08.260
just describing it more on the focus of the child's

00:40:08.260 --> 00:40:12.360
needs yes then just an outright because parents

00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:14.920
will be entitled to their own social care assessments

00:40:14.920 --> 00:40:20.800
um both as a service user and also as a parent

00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:24.119
carer so it's thinking about what's appropriate

00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:28.159
and the child that the report is actually linked

00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:30.099
to i suppose that's a similar if it was siblings

00:40:30.099 --> 00:40:32.119
i suppose if there was if there was lots of needs

00:40:32.119 --> 00:40:34.599
amongst the siblings it's how it impacts the

00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:37.119
child that the report is about and not about

00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:40.300
them and their needs because and if you think

00:40:40.300 --> 00:40:42.380
about it if you went to tribunal and you were

00:40:42.380 --> 00:40:45.239
to say to the tribunal were their siblings and

00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:47.880
they've got these needs and that's not included

00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:50.530
in section d tribunal judge is going to say well

00:40:50.530 --> 00:40:52.769
i can't make a decision about their siblings

00:40:52.769 --> 00:40:55.969
because the appeal isn't about them i don't have

00:40:55.969 --> 00:40:58.630
any information about them this appeal is focused

00:40:58.630 --> 00:41:00.849
on this this child so it's getting a balance

00:41:00.849 --> 00:41:03.590
and again sometimes you may put things or local

00:41:03.590 --> 00:41:05.630
authority may put things in section d that you

00:41:05.630 --> 00:41:07.829
may think you know what it technically shouldn't

00:41:07.829 --> 00:41:09.630
be there but it's helpful information so i'm

00:41:09.630 --> 00:41:12.210
happy for it to be there what we're talking about

00:41:12.210 --> 00:41:14.809
today is the technicalities of what absolutely

00:41:14.809 --> 00:41:16.829
should and shouldn't be in there but there is

00:41:16.829 --> 00:41:19.469
always that ability to try and agree different

00:41:19.469 --> 00:41:21.230
with the local authority if you want to okay

00:41:21.230 --> 00:41:24.269
amazing that's really helpful thank you okay

00:41:24.269 --> 00:41:28.389
so section e is the outcome they should be smart

00:41:28.389 --> 00:41:31.590
they should be measurable they are something

00:41:31.590 --> 00:41:35.090
that technically cannot be appealed but there

00:41:35.090 --> 00:41:38.539
is case law that says that if consequential amendments

00:41:38.539 --> 00:41:41.780
are needed to it essentially because the needs

00:41:41.780 --> 00:41:45.579
that are in b have changed then in theory a tribunal

00:41:45.579 --> 00:41:48.840
can consider making changes to section e to be

00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:50.860
honest we don't tend to see many problems with

00:41:50.860 --> 00:41:56.000
section a um the outcomes are usually fine you

00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:57.780
know it may be that we think that they're not

00:41:57.780 --> 00:42:00.780
quite accurate or there may be some additional

00:42:00.780 --> 00:42:03.280
ones that need to be included more often than

00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:06.010
anything it will be that because they haven't

00:42:06.010 --> 00:42:07.829
described all the needs in section b perhaps

00:42:07.829 --> 00:42:10.469
they haven't got all the outcomes that are needed

00:42:10.469 --> 00:42:13.849
so we might be asking to make change to changes

00:42:13.849 --> 00:42:16.070
to section e because we've asked for more needs

00:42:16.070 --> 00:42:18.369
to be included the the biggest thing is just

00:42:18.369 --> 00:42:20.570
to be aware that technically the tribunal can't

00:42:20.570 --> 00:42:25.570
deal with section a okay great okay um section

00:42:25.570 --> 00:42:29.070
f section f should include all of the special

00:42:29.070 --> 00:42:32.570
educational provision um i'm actually gonna bring

00:42:32.570 --> 00:42:34.969
g and h into this at the same time because it's

00:42:34.969 --> 00:42:37.190
easier to talk about the three of them as a whole

00:42:37.190 --> 00:42:40.530
so section f is the educational provision section

00:42:40.530 --> 00:42:44.250
g is your health provision and section is your

00:42:44.250 --> 00:42:47.210
social care provision now the reason why it's

00:42:47.210 --> 00:42:50.869
really a lot easier to talk about these in one

00:42:50.869 --> 00:42:53.909
go is because there is within the legislation

00:42:53.909 --> 00:42:58.369
um a bit of it that says that if provision educate

00:42:59.079 --> 00:43:03.400
or trained regardless of whether or not it comes

00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:06.699
into health or social care if it educates or

00:43:06.699 --> 00:43:09.559
trains and it's to be deemed to be special educational

00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:12.800
provision which means it goes into section f

00:43:12.800 --> 00:43:16.800
now the reason that this is really important

00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:19.619
is because when we were talking at the start

00:43:19.619 --> 00:43:22.260
about that contract the legally enforceable bit

00:43:22.260 --> 00:43:26.219
section f is your legally enforceable bit So

00:43:26.219 --> 00:43:28.139
it's the bit where you want all the provision

00:43:28.139 --> 00:43:31.980
to be included, you want it to be worded nice

00:43:31.980 --> 00:43:34.920
and clear. Things like speech and language therapy

00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:38.480
and occupational therapy, local authorities will

00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:42.679
quite often try and put them in Section G. Long

00:43:42.679 --> 00:43:45.880
-standing, there's been very old case law on

00:43:45.880 --> 00:43:49.139
this, they are special educational provision,

00:43:49.480 --> 00:43:53.849
they go into Section F. And a lot of local authorities,

00:43:53.989 --> 00:43:56.309
to be fair, are really good at not putting them

00:43:56.309 --> 00:43:59.090
in Section G. We still see it on rural cases

00:43:59.090 --> 00:44:01.469
and we should. But things like after -school

00:44:01.469 --> 00:44:04.289
care or like holiday clubs, could they be classed

00:44:04.289 --> 00:44:07.449
as education? It depends because if it is an

00:44:07.449 --> 00:44:09.570
after -school club because parents are working

00:44:09.570 --> 00:44:11.710
and the parents can't pick the child up, then

00:44:11.710 --> 00:44:13.869
it's probably unlikely. But more like if it's

00:44:13.869 --> 00:44:17.090
respite? If it's respite, respite itself would

00:44:17.090 --> 00:44:19.690
probably be classed to be social care provision.

00:44:19.730 --> 00:44:23.059
Yeah, okay. Whereas if it is that somebody needs

00:44:23.059 --> 00:44:26.199
an extended curriculum teaching outside of the

00:44:26.199 --> 00:44:28.519
school hours that would and it would normally

00:44:28.519 --> 00:44:31.760
be say and what we quite often look at this in

00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:34.760
relation to is older sort of young people who

00:44:34.760 --> 00:44:38.079
may be moving away from home you're trying to

00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:40.079
get them into a residential school placement

00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:43.099
you may be saying that they've got that need

00:44:43.099 --> 00:44:45.659
to actually learn beyond just school hours because

00:44:45.659 --> 00:44:49.039
actually daily living and independent skills

00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:52.260
they aren't just. Those activities don't just

00:44:52.260 --> 00:44:54.480
take place during school hours. You need to be

00:44:54.480 --> 00:44:56.360
able to do them in different settings. You need

00:44:56.360 --> 00:44:59.440
to be able to generalise. So those kind of provisions

00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:02.119
which a local authority might argue are social

00:45:02.119 --> 00:45:04.559
care, I would be saying that that's educational.

00:45:04.679 --> 00:45:06.639
There's a need for an extended day curriculum,

00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:10.820
which is an educational need. Just respite as

00:45:10.820 --> 00:45:13.579
parents need a break, that would just be social

00:45:13.579 --> 00:45:15.519
care provision. But this is why it's really important

00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:17.739
actually to think about the three sections together.

00:45:18.570 --> 00:45:21.789
Because there can be a crossover and it can sometimes

00:45:21.789 --> 00:45:24.909
be a really fine line between what is educational

00:45:24.909 --> 00:45:27.869
and what's not. And again, it's going to depend

00:45:27.869 --> 00:45:30.289
on the individual child. But when it comes to

00:45:30.289 --> 00:45:32.170
therapies like speech and language therapy and

00:45:32.170 --> 00:45:34.809
occupational therapy, I really would not ever

00:45:34.809 --> 00:45:38.250
expect to see them in Section G. In my perspective,

00:45:38.369 --> 00:45:42.079
they should always be in Section F. The Code

00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:44.119
of Practice says that they should normally be

00:45:44.119 --> 00:45:47.099
in Section F. And we've got lots of case law

00:45:47.099 --> 00:45:49.539
that confirms that as well. So from my perspective,

00:45:49.659 --> 00:45:51.519
that isn't something that local authorities should

00:45:51.519 --> 00:45:53.320
be getting wrong, but they still do. And they

00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:55.460
will sometimes just split it. So sometimes they'll

00:45:55.460 --> 00:45:58.300
put some occupational therapy in Section F. And

00:45:58.300 --> 00:46:00.199
in particular with sensory needs, we quite often

00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:03.559
see that sneak into provision in Section G, like

00:46:03.559 --> 00:46:05.880
provision to meet that, which shouldn't be split.

00:46:05.960 --> 00:46:08.159
It should all be in Section F. There's no reason

00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:11.329
to split that provision. like I said, is legally

00:46:11.329 --> 00:46:15.409
enforceable, local authorities have a duty to

00:46:15.409 --> 00:46:17.650
ensure that provision is in place. So even though

00:46:17.650 --> 00:46:19.969
it would technically be a school that would be

00:46:19.969 --> 00:46:22.050
the ones that would be implementing the EHCP

00:46:22.050 --> 00:46:25.210
day to day, if something in Section F is nice

00:46:25.210 --> 00:46:27.289
and clear, for instance, if it says that they

00:46:27.289 --> 00:46:31.110
should get 45 minutes a week of speech and language

00:46:31.110 --> 00:46:33.730
therapy and they're not getting it, then there

00:46:33.730 --> 00:46:36.230
is something that we can do legally to challenge

00:46:36.230 --> 00:46:40.389
them if it is in Section F. it's really hard

00:46:40.389 --> 00:46:42.429
to challenge it if it's in Section G because

00:46:42.429 --> 00:46:44.929
it doesn't, the same duty isn't on the local

00:46:44.929 --> 00:46:47.369
authority for Section G as it is for Section

00:46:47.369 --> 00:46:50.829
F. So that's one of the reasons why that's really

00:46:50.829 --> 00:46:53.530
important. That's really important. And so as

00:46:53.530 --> 00:46:56.670
a school accepting a child, because obviously

00:46:56.670 --> 00:47:00.050
you would receive their EHCP to see if you can

00:47:00.050 --> 00:47:02.570
meet the need. If you see something like that

00:47:02.570 --> 00:47:04.909
on Section F that says they need to receive 45

00:47:04.909 --> 00:47:06.869
minutes of speech and language therapy and you

00:47:06.869 --> 00:47:08.429
don't have a speech and language therapy on,

00:47:08.699 --> 00:47:11.539
pissed on site by accepting that child are you

00:47:11.539 --> 00:47:16.159
accepting as a school the cost of that or does

00:47:16.159 --> 00:47:18.260
that have to be part of the negotiation of accepting

00:47:18.260 --> 00:47:20.420
the child with the county or how does that then

00:47:20.420 --> 00:47:22.719
work because we want as schools we want to say

00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:24.579
yes to these children but we also want to make

00:47:24.579 --> 00:47:28.829
sure that we can afford the cost of that And

00:47:28.829 --> 00:47:30.630
obviously, the way that the funding is split

00:47:30.630 --> 00:47:33.190
up sort of is that schools will have a little

00:47:33.190 --> 00:47:35.750
bit of the funding going directly to them and

00:47:35.750 --> 00:47:37.710
schools will be expected to use that funding

00:47:37.710 --> 00:47:40.909
towards the overall cost. But you're absolutely

00:47:40.909 --> 00:47:43.269
right. A lot of the things that go into Section

00:47:43.269 --> 00:47:46.670
F, you know, the therapies, one to ones, they

00:47:46.670 --> 00:47:51.210
can't all be funded just from that pot of money

00:47:51.210 --> 00:47:54.369
that the school has directly. And from my perspective.

00:47:55.210 --> 00:47:56.889
if a school is saying well we're not putting

00:47:56.889 --> 00:47:58.809
this provision in place because we can't afford

00:47:58.809 --> 00:48:01.610
it we say okay that's fine we'll communicate

00:48:01.610 --> 00:48:03.929
that to the local authority so when we challenge

00:48:03.929 --> 00:48:06.550
the local authority we'll say look the school

00:48:06.550 --> 00:48:08.269
isn't implementing it because they haven't got

00:48:08.269 --> 00:48:11.230
the resources to do it you as a local authority

00:48:11.230 --> 00:48:14.030
have the legal duty to make sure that provision

00:48:14.030 --> 00:48:16.570
is in place so if the school is saying they don't

00:48:16.570 --> 00:48:18.730
have the resources from my perspective the local

00:48:18.730 --> 00:48:20.489
authority needs to make sure that funding is

00:48:20.489 --> 00:48:23.460
in place Now, I'm sure there will be some instances

00:48:23.460 --> 00:48:25.360
where local authorities will say to a school,

00:48:25.519 --> 00:48:27.860
you've got the money, we expect you to use it,

00:48:27.900 --> 00:48:29.119
we're not giving you any extra money. Because

00:48:29.119 --> 00:48:31.320
it might be that the school are using that on

00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:33.139
other things that are deemed maybe less legally

00:48:33.139 --> 00:48:35.059
binding, less important, and then the local authority

00:48:35.059 --> 00:48:38.199
can negotiate in that way. However, if the school

00:48:38.199 --> 00:48:42.059
literally do not have the money and they're already

00:48:42.059 --> 00:48:46.260
spending far beyond their means on this child,

00:48:46.659 --> 00:48:48.820
then yeah, it's up to the local authority to

00:48:48.820 --> 00:48:52.010
pick up that slack, isn't it? Yeah. And what

00:48:52.010 --> 00:48:54.630
I tend to find is because if a local authority

00:48:54.630 --> 00:48:56.530
isn't putting in place the provision that's in

00:48:56.530 --> 00:49:00.269
an EHCP, they can potentially be challenged by

00:49:00.269 --> 00:49:02.170
something called judicial review, which is a

00:49:02.170 --> 00:49:04.070
type of legal claim where you take the local

00:49:04.070 --> 00:49:06.329
authority to the High Court and you say, look,

00:49:06.389 --> 00:49:09.070
they're acting in breach of their duty. The EHCP

00:49:09.070 --> 00:49:11.369
is really nice and clear. They should be providing

00:49:11.369 --> 00:49:14.090
these 45 minutes of speech and language therapy.

00:49:14.289 --> 00:49:18.329
They're not. Judicial review is actually quite

00:49:18.329 --> 00:49:21.380
an expensive legal process. parents should be

00:49:21.380 --> 00:49:23.440
put up for off by it pursuing it because there

00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:26.980
are legal aid rules that quite often at the point

00:49:26.980 --> 00:49:28.860
where you are wanting to take that support that

00:49:28.860 --> 00:49:31.440
allow the means to be assessed on the child's

00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:34.260
um means so actually quite often families can

00:49:34.260 --> 00:49:36.599
get legal aid for that process or just want to

00:49:36.599 --> 00:49:38.260
say that from the outset because i don't want

00:49:38.260 --> 00:49:40.480
parents to be put off by looking at this potential

00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:41.940
challenge because i've said it's very costly

00:49:41.940 --> 00:49:44.500
there is potentially legal aid available to help

00:49:44.500 --> 00:49:46.820
but from local authorities perspective they don't

00:49:46.820 --> 00:49:49.579
get legal aid so these judicial review claims

00:49:49.579 --> 00:49:53.360
they are very expensive if they lose then they

00:49:53.360 --> 00:49:55.860
could be ordered to pay the parental cost or

00:49:55.860 --> 00:49:59.199
pay that legal aid they are when it's black and

00:49:59.199 --> 00:50:01.659
white they know that they're probably going to

00:50:01.659 --> 00:50:03.500
lose you know it's the cases where the wording

00:50:03.500 --> 00:50:06.019
is more woolly where they may think well we're

00:50:06.019 --> 00:50:07.400
going to take it all the way to court because

00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:09.420
actually we think it's not crystal clear and

00:50:09.420 --> 00:50:11.699
we wouldn't really advise somebody do a judicial

00:50:11.699 --> 00:50:14.500
review on wording that's really woolly which

00:50:14.500 --> 00:50:16.199
again is why you want to make sure it's nice

00:50:16.199 --> 00:50:18.460
and clear in section f so you know what should

00:50:18.460 --> 00:50:21.880
be provided but ease for challenging it. But

00:50:21.880 --> 00:50:23.679
because local authorities know this is an expensive

00:50:23.679 --> 00:50:25.719
process, what you tend to find is that if the

00:50:25.719 --> 00:50:27.719
school say they need more money, local authority

00:50:27.719 --> 00:50:29.820
sorts that out. Because what they want to happen

00:50:29.820 --> 00:50:32.119
is any threat of judicial review to go away quickly.

00:50:32.380 --> 00:50:34.599
They don't want to have to be paying the cost

00:50:34.599 --> 00:50:37.539
involved with defending a judicial review claim.

00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:40.199
So if a parent is in that situation where the

00:50:40.199 --> 00:50:42.340
school's saying, look, we can't afford it, not

00:50:42.340 --> 00:50:44.420
a problem. Go after the local authority. That's

00:50:44.420 --> 00:50:47.010
who you're meant to go after. And if the school

00:50:47.010 --> 00:50:49.030
say they need more money, then the local authority

00:50:49.030 --> 00:50:50.829
essentially needs to make sure that they do.

00:50:51.170 --> 00:50:53.349
Yeah. And is that where somebody that gets in

00:50:53.349 --> 00:50:55.369
contact with you, you could kind of support them

00:50:55.369 --> 00:50:58.389
with that process and how to navigate that? So

00:50:58.389 --> 00:51:00.869
before you're allowed to take it to court, you

00:51:00.869 --> 00:51:02.610
have to draft something called a letter before

00:51:02.610 --> 00:51:04.650
claim, which is also known as a pre -action protocol

00:51:04.650 --> 00:51:07.929
letter, PAT, letter before action. It's all sorts

00:51:07.929 --> 00:51:12.139
of names, basically the same thing. and we can

00:51:12.139 --> 00:51:14.699
help parents draft those letters and actually

00:51:14.699 --> 00:51:17.659
in the majority of the cases when it is nice

00:51:17.659 --> 00:51:20.320
and clearly written in an EHCP those letters

00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:23.179
will usually resolve things so the funding will

00:51:23.179 --> 00:51:25.380
be in place or the local authority will have

00:51:25.380 --> 00:51:27.300
that conversation with school and you know there

00:51:27.300 --> 00:51:29.179
is a case that they've got the funding then that

00:51:29.179 --> 00:51:31.780
will be sorted out but what we do tend to find

00:51:31.780 --> 00:51:33.659
when we've had schools say to us before because

00:51:33.659 --> 00:51:37.059
we have had situations where the parents and

00:51:37.059 --> 00:51:39.469
the school are on the same page And the school's

00:51:39.469 --> 00:51:41.250
saying, look, whatever you need, just let us

00:51:41.250 --> 00:51:44.050
know. And then the schools will come back and

00:51:44.050 --> 00:51:45.570
report it, that they have then been given the

00:51:45.570 --> 00:51:47.570
extra funding to put that provision in place.

00:51:47.730 --> 00:51:50.110
So it's always worth challenging. You have to

00:51:50.110 --> 00:51:53.610
make sure your plan is nice and clear. This podcast

00:51:53.610 --> 00:51:56.690
is like gold dust, I cannot tell you. It's amazing.

00:51:57.110 --> 00:52:00.170
And so many, I get so many questions regularly

00:52:00.170 --> 00:52:03.869
about this stuff because it is. so scary there

00:52:03.869 --> 00:52:06.030
is such big wording it's really important to

00:52:06.030 --> 00:52:07.869
get right but parents aren't told this stuff

00:52:07.869 --> 00:52:10.670
so all teachers or say lots of senkos even are

00:52:10.670 --> 00:52:12.889
really not sure about this stuff so this This

00:52:12.889 --> 00:52:15.070
podcast is gold dust and will be pinned to the

00:52:15.070 --> 00:52:17.610
top of everywhere, I can assure you. If people

00:52:17.610 --> 00:52:19.550
have listened to this and think, right, I need

00:52:19.550 --> 00:52:21.829
to know more. We're exactly in this process.

00:52:21.969 --> 00:52:24.369
It's been years now of fight, fight, fight and

00:52:24.369 --> 00:52:26.369
not getting anywhere. I need to get in touch

00:52:26.369 --> 00:52:28.750
with Samantha. I'm going to have your Facebook

00:52:28.750 --> 00:52:32.570
page information down below. And it's the HCB

00:52:32.570 --> 00:52:36.650
solicitors group, isn't it? To get in contact

00:52:36.650 --> 00:52:39.090
with you and yeah, to see if you can help. But

00:52:39.090 --> 00:52:40.349
there'll likely be a lot of information on the

00:52:40.349 --> 00:52:43.400
Facebook page. Hopefully this podcast gives you

00:52:43.400 --> 00:52:46.340
the tools you need and the wording you need and

00:52:46.340 --> 00:52:49.079
that you know you're right so that you can yourself

00:52:49.079 --> 00:52:52.719
tackle this stuff. So thank you so much, Samantha.

00:52:53.559 --> 00:52:55.699
That's okay. Thank you for having me. Amazing.

00:52:55.800 --> 00:52:57.159
We'll have to have you back for talk about other

00:52:57.159 --> 00:52:59.500
things because there's so many more. But yeah,

00:52:59.539 --> 00:53:00.980
I'm really pleased that we started with this

00:53:00.980 --> 00:53:03.559
EHCP process. It's really important. So thank

00:53:03.559 --> 00:53:04.519
you. Thank you.