WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.680 Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education 00:00:02.680 --> 00:00:06.139 teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything 00:00:06.139 --> 00:00:09.119 communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson 00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:11.660 ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged 00:00:11.660 --> 00:00:15.300 4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in 00:00:15.300 --> 00:00:17.640 the field answering your questions and sharing 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:19.579 our knowledge and experience working alongside 00:00:19.579 --> 00:00:22.559 our beautiful young people. Let's get started. 00:00:28.489 --> 00:00:30.949 First of all, a message about our sponsor. Today's 00:00:30.949 --> 00:00:33.649 sponsor is Octopus Energy. 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Head to the link in the description below 00:01:04.400 --> 00:01:07.200 to make the switch today. Now to the episode. 00:01:09.060 --> 00:01:11.599 Hello everybody and welcome back to the Sensory 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:14.140 Classroom podcast. My name is Jordan and today 00:01:14.140 --> 00:01:16.760 I'm joined by Marissa Webb, speech and language 00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:19.400 therapist. And we're going to talk about AAC 00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:22.780 and total communication today. Hi Marissa. Hello. 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:27.739 Welcome. Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Absolutely. 00:01:27.780 --> 00:01:29.859 I am so excited to have you. We've been chatting 00:01:29.859 --> 00:01:31.659 in the DMs a little bit about what we're going 00:01:31.659 --> 00:01:34.439 to talk about today and I can already feel fire 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:36.599 burning in my belly about the topics that we're 00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:40.159 going to talk about. Me too, definitely. It's 00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:41.879 so what I'm passionate about. I mean, I think 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:43.879 you can see across all my social media, I'm incredibly 00:01:43.879 --> 00:01:46.459 passionate about communication, but communication 00:01:46.459 --> 00:01:49.980 done in a neuro firming way. And I think that's 00:01:49.980 --> 00:01:52.260 what we're going to talk about today. So what 00:01:52.260 --> 00:01:54.819 does that mean to you when I say talking about 00:01:54.819 --> 00:01:56.439 communication in a neuroaffirming way? Some people 00:01:56.439 --> 00:01:58.239 will be like, well, how can you communicate not 00:01:58.239 --> 00:02:00.459 that way? So what does that mean to you? Exactly. 00:02:00.459 --> 00:02:03.099 Well, that's really interesting because, so as 00:02:03.099 --> 00:02:04.219 you mentioned, I'm a speech and language therapist. 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:06.680 So this is what I do all day long with children. 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:09.419 My favorite type of children are the kinds who 00:02:09.419 --> 00:02:12.240 need that total communication neuroaffirming 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:13.900 approach because they're the most exciting to 00:02:13.900 --> 00:02:17.400 work with. challenging, head scratching, all 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:19.759 kinds of just make your brain work and really 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:22.699 fun. But really, it's about honoring the other 00:02:22.699 --> 00:02:26.199 person. So I know that sounds really sort of 00:02:26.199 --> 00:02:28.539 big and profound, but it's also very simple. 00:02:28.620 --> 00:02:31.819 It's just like allowing the other person to be 00:02:31.819 --> 00:02:35.460 who they are and doing your utmost best that 00:02:35.460 --> 00:02:39.879 you can to tune into them in whatever way they're 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:42.919 communicating. We do this as human beings. all 00:02:42.919 --> 00:02:44.879 of the time. You're doing it right now. I can 00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:47.960 see you. You're smiling. You're nodding. It's 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:50.280 all what we do all the time. And that's telling 00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:54.120 me that you're listening. It's telling me that 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:57.400 you possibly, it resonates with you. But you 00:02:57.400 --> 00:02:59.539 and I are communicating completely differently 00:02:59.539 --> 00:03:02.379 in spoken language than many, many people do 00:03:02.379 --> 00:03:04.719 communicate. Some people don't communicate in 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:07.000 spoken language at all. And we need to understand, 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:10.159 learn the nuances of how to communicate in many 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:12.969 different ways. is what total communication is 00:03:12.969 --> 00:03:15.430 all about so i suppose let's start from the beginning 00:03:15.430 --> 00:03:19.509 why wouldn't somebody be able to communicate 00:03:19.509 --> 00:03:23.469 through verbal speech what are the physical mental 00:03:23.469 --> 00:03:26.569 like what are the reasons behind that yeah there 00:03:26.569 --> 00:03:29.550 are quite a few so a lot of the A lot of the 00:03:29.550 --> 00:03:31.490 children that I work with that we would be talking 00:03:31.490 --> 00:03:33.849 about this kind of total communication approach, 00:03:34.009 --> 00:03:36.949 we also, as you mentioned, neuroaffirming, it's 00:03:36.949 --> 00:03:39.009 because many of them have neurodevelopmental 00:03:39.009 --> 00:03:43.689 conditions such as autism, ADHD, and generally 00:03:43.689 --> 00:03:47.030 their social communication is an area of difficulty. 00:03:47.229 --> 00:03:51.349 So for them, understanding how to make this work, 00:03:51.449 --> 00:03:54.449 to do those things and those things come out, 00:03:54.469 --> 00:03:57.020 what does that, how does that? work and it's 00:03:57.020 --> 00:03:58.439 not because they're not intelligent it's not 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:01.860 because they they can't figure it out it's their 00:04:01.860 --> 00:04:03.939 brain is wired differently so it's kind of like 00:04:03.939 --> 00:04:06.419 we're speaking a different language to them not 00:04:06.419 --> 00:04:09.180 a language as in spoken language but a completely 00:04:09.180 --> 00:04:11.400 different dimension of language if that makes 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:14.699 sense it's like even bigger than that um so a 00:04:14.699 --> 00:04:17.240 lot of children with autism will have difficulty 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:20.279 many of them process language in different ways 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:23.839 so such as gestalt language processors they might 00:04:24.089 --> 00:04:26.050 process language in big chunks and not really 00:04:26.050 --> 00:04:28.370 see how does it break down into these little 00:04:28.370 --> 00:04:30.509 bits of little words and then the sounds. And 00:04:30.509 --> 00:04:33.209 also as part of that, many of these children 00:04:33.209 --> 00:04:36.089 will have real difficulty with processing the 00:04:36.089 --> 00:04:38.910 auditory information that's coming in. So even 00:04:38.910 --> 00:04:41.269 just processing the sound of someone's voice 00:04:41.269 --> 00:04:43.670 and all the speech sounds involved in their spoken 00:04:43.670 --> 00:04:45.470 language makes it almost impossible for them 00:04:45.470 --> 00:04:47.290 to figure out how to break that down and respond. 00:04:47.610 --> 00:04:50.050 And then there's also motor planning, like sensory 00:04:50.050 --> 00:04:52.230 motor planning from the brain to tell the mouth 00:04:52.230 --> 00:04:56.490 what to do. It makes that task so onerous for 00:04:56.490 --> 00:04:58.529 them. They can't actually be able to do that. 00:04:58.670 --> 00:05:01.389 So they have to use things like eye gaze. So 00:05:01.389 --> 00:05:03.290 they have to use their eyes to point or they 00:05:03.290 --> 00:05:05.509 might be able to still have more gross motor 00:05:05.509 --> 00:05:07.730 movement so they can point with their finger, 00:05:07.970 --> 00:05:09.709 even though that is a little bit fine motor, 00:05:09.790 --> 00:05:13.250 but not quite as fine motor as speech. So all 00:05:13.250 --> 00:05:18.149 of these things can kind of combine in an individual. 00:05:18.250 --> 00:05:20.790 And there isn't just one like, oh, that's it. 00:05:21.050 --> 00:05:22.689 we'll just put our finger on that button right 00:05:22.689 --> 00:05:24.889 that that brain cell right there that's the one 00:05:24.889 --> 00:05:28.410 it doesn't work like that so we we have to be 00:05:28.410 --> 00:05:30.970 able to look at all of the different things that 00:05:30.970 --> 00:05:33.589 are the barriers and total communication is about 00:05:33.589 --> 00:05:37.079 removing those those barriers i mean I guess 00:05:37.079 --> 00:05:40.720 another example would be some children with situational 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:42.660 mutism used to be called selective mutism, but 00:05:42.660 --> 00:05:45.939 it is a phobia around speaking and using your 00:05:45.939 --> 00:05:49.779 voice. And actually an AAC device, electronic 00:05:49.779 --> 00:05:52.420 device can sometimes get around that issue for 00:05:52.420 --> 00:05:56.959 that student because they can feel more comfortable 00:05:56.959 --> 00:05:58.920 putting their ideas in and they're listening 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:01.680 to an electronic voice. They're not having to 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:05.839 share their own voice. And it's not to replace 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:08.420 their communication forever. Obviously, we'd 00:06:08.420 --> 00:06:11.040 love and they would probably love to be able 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:14.000 to not have that intense psychological fear of 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:15.639 speaking in front of other people. And that's 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:18.160 why it's called situational mutism. I haven't 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:20.319 heard that term before. I way prefer it because 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:22.319 it's not selective almost feels like they're 00:06:22.319 --> 00:06:25.019 choosing to. It does. It sounds like I'm choosing 00:06:25.019 --> 00:06:26.800 not to talk to you, but I'm choosing to talk 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:29.899 to you. It's basically I can speak in front of 00:06:29.899 --> 00:06:32.879 you, you know, mum, dad, whoever, but I can't. 00:06:33.209 --> 00:06:35.170 speak in front of these other people or these 00:06:35.170 --> 00:06:38.189 other situations in terms of environment, location, 00:06:38.389 --> 00:06:40.310 people that are present. So it can be useful 00:06:40.310 --> 00:06:42.370 for that, you know. So there's lots of those 00:06:42.370 --> 00:06:44.810 kinds of reasons why people can't communicate. 00:06:45.009 --> 00:06:48.009 And I mainly work with children. And most of 00:06:48.009 --> 00:06:49.610 these things are sort of developmental conditions 00:06:49.610 --> 00:06:52.529 and things like that. But there's also, we haven't 00:06:52.529 --> 00:06:54.889 even talked about, you know, trauma. brain damage 00:06:54.889 --> 00:06:58.470 and an actual an actual insult or injury stroke 00:06:58.470 --> 00:07:01.670 etc etc that causes somebody to lose their ability 00:07:01.670 --> 00:07:04.550 to communicate and obviously we want people to 00:07:04.550 --> 00:07:06.529 be able to communicate their needs no matter 00:07:06.529 --> 00:07:08.670 what their difficulties are because they still 00:07:08.670 --> 00:07:10.509 have value even if they're not communicating 00:07:10.509 --> 00:07:14.300 in spoken language which is it sounds like why 00:07:14.300 --> 00:07:16.399 would a speech therapist because it's not it's 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:18.180 not the right exact it's more like a communication 00:07:18.180 --> 00:07:20.500 therapist i like to think of it as it's all about 00:07:20.500 --> 00:07:22.379 total communication which is why this is one 00:07:22.379 --> 00:07:24.699 of my favorite topics and i'm so glad you decided 00:07:24.699 --> 00:07:27.360 to be called communication therapist because 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:31.439 it's speech has is an iota of what you guys cover 00:07:32.110 --> 00:07:34.790 you cover so much let's talk about that then 00:07:34.790 --> 00:07:37.709 what does total communication cover people have 00:07:37.709 --> 00:07:40.189 heard communication before they might have seen 00:07:40.189 --> 00:07:43.310 symbols before they might have think okay well 00:07:43.310 --> 00:07:45.170 you said something about eye contact you said 00:07:45.170 --> 00:07:47.810 something about reaching what does what does 00:07:47.810 --> 00:07:51.269 total communication cover yeah so we in terms 00:07:51.269 --> 00:07:54.430 of being able to provide a total communication 00:07:54.430 --> 00:07:56.769 environment we'd look at the whole environment 00:07:56.769 --> 00:07:59.300 and say right we need to be able to offer all 00:07:59.300 --> 00:08:01.980 these ways that somebody could access somebody 00:08:01.980 --> 00:08:03.920 else's messages because that's basically what 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:06.180 it is it's accessing messages from my brain to 00:08:06.180 --> 00:08:08.300 your brain and how could I communicate I could 00:08:08.300 --> 00:08:10.879 do this and you know that I've just given you 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:12.819 a nod I'm agreeing with you whatever it is I 00:08:12.819 --> 00:08:15.959 could do this I could send you an emoji all of 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:18.339 those things are ways for me to communicate a 00:08:18.339 --> 00:08:20.699 message to you so you want to make sure that 00:08:20.699 --> 00:08:23.899 classrooms therapy settings everywhere that this 00:08:23.899 --> 00:08:25.879 child has access to especially in the home as 00:08:25.879 --> 00:08:28.699 well They have access to all of these different 00:08:28.699 --> 00:08:34.159 ways and means to communicate. So we offer them 00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:37.000 by using our spoken language alongside things 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:40.399 like Makaton signing. Like you said, symbols. 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:43.720 It could just be like objects of reference. So 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:46.559 a lot of children will bring their cup or plate 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:48.919 when they're feeling hungry and realize that 00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:51.620 they're really smart. They figured out that's 00:08:51.620 --> 00:08:53.279 obviously going to make somebody know I want 00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:56.080 something, some food or drink in that item. It's 00:08:56.080 --> 00:08:58.639 really, you know, it's a no brainer, really. 00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:02.740 And what we talk about when we put all those 00:09:02.740 --> 00:09:05.679 things on offer is we. see what they're going 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:08.779 to resonate with because we can't really impose 00:09:08.779 --> 00:09:11.340 just one we're not going to go okay we've decided 00:09:11.340 --> 00:09:13.080 we're going to pick signing for you we're going 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:15.220 to pick this for you no we we can't do that because 00:09:15.220 --> 00:09:18.600 we don't know I hear that in my messages a lot 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.100 a scary amount of saying actually one yesterday 00:09:22.100 --> 00:09:26.399 said um I've learned all about Makaton I think 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:28.179 I'm going to change all of our communication 00:09:28.179 --> 00:09:32.120 symbols to be Makaton symbols and because that's 00:09:32.120 --> 00:09:34.299 the way we're gonna go and i was like whoa whoa 00:09:34.299 --> 00:09:35.940 whoa like that's awesome that you've learned 00:09:35.940 --> 00:09:38.840 makaton but like you need like other symbols 00:09:38.840 --> 00:09:42.320 too or photos or objects like have it all but 00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:44.019 it's just really fascinating to me of like okay 00:09:44.019 --> 00:09:47.059 we've learned this new thing it feels and sounds 00:09:47.059 --> 00:09:50.500 good like let's go with that one route it just 00:09:50.860 --> 00:09:54.059 Yeah, it does sound interesting. Yeah, and I 00:09:54.059 --> 00:09:57.139 think you're right about thinking about how important 00:09:57.139 --> 00:10:00.340 it is to learn these different modes, but also 00:10:00.340 --> 00:10:02.899 having them all on offer to see what somebody 00:10:02.899 --> 00:10:05.279 will resonate with. And then you can lean in 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:07.240 to those specific things for that individual, 00:10:07.340 --> 00:10:09.259 which may be slightly different from person to 00:10:09.259 --> 00:10:12.080 person. Private to moment as well, right? Absolutely. 00:10:12.340 --> 00:10:16.139 You could have a learner that is incredibly eloquent 00:10:16.139 --> 00:10:19.120 on their AAC, but actually when they're dysregulated, 00:10:19.259 --> 00:10:21.940 they... don't even want to look at it in fact 00:10:21.940 --> 00:10:24.179 maybe they throw it because they just it's too 00:10:24.179 --> 00:10:26.360 much it's the noise of it i don't know maybe 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:29.240 whatever triggering they can't access the visual 00:10:29.240 --> 00:10:30.980 because when they're dysregulated that's right 00:10:30.980 --> 00:10:33.139 so maybe they actually just need well i've had 00:10:33.139 --> 00:10:35.860 students before that need just objects at that 00:10:35.860 --> 00:10:38.320 moment or not even any choices at all actually 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:41.559 so often but they may just give you their choice 00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:43.600 which could be hands in the face you know exactly 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:45.620 exactly or use their body to communicate exactly 00:10:45.620 --> 00:10:47.460 yeah like turning away and that doesn't mean 00:10:47.460 --> 00:10:50.049 they can't it just means they can't write now 00:10:50.049 --> 00:10:54.350 so having the um having those available to you 00:10:54.350 --> 00:10:57.009 in your environment in all those moments on those 00:10:57.009 --> 00:10:59.470 bad days on those tired days on those poorly 00:10:59.470 --> 00:11:02.509 days will really help as well so that they can 00:11:02.509 --> 00:11:06.529 get their needs and wants understood in all those 00:11:06.529 --> 00:11:10.070 moments and i think the key with that is to whatever 00:11:10.070 --> 00:11:13.470 they come with that tells you a what they can 00:11:13.470 --> 00:11:15.610 handle that in that moment and what resonates 00:11:15.610 --> 00:11:17.590 with them the most and you need to honor that 00:11:17.590 --> 00:11:20.070 by accepting it And supporting them, right, okay, 00:11:20.210 --> 00:11:22.289 this is where you're at today. You can only just 00:11:22.289 --> 00:11:24.210 about manage this. Fine. We're going to go with 00:11:24.210 --> 00:11:26.669 that. I'm going to help you to make sure that 00:11:26.669 --> 00:11:29.190 you get what you need. And then we'll worry about, 00:11:29.269 --> 00:11:31.990 you know, encouraging that signing. A different 00:11:31.990 --> 00:11:33.330 day. We're not going to be like, nope, that's 00:11:33.330 --> 00:11:35.529 it. I'm not going to give it to you. Sign more, 00:11:35.669 --> 00:11:37.789 sign more. You will, you will sign more. I've 00:11:37.789 --> 00:11:40.370 seen it though. We laugh about it, but I see 00:11:40.370 --> 00:11:43.470 it. I see it all the time. I see a dysregulated 00:11:43.470 --> 00:11:48.259 child or a bubbly child. It's clearly wanting 00:11:48.259 --> 00:11:51.139 something, actually making it really obvious 00:11:51.139 --> 00:11:53.820 what they want, actually. That's right. Just 00:11:53.820 --> 00:11:56.340 maybe not in a safe way or not in a, I don't 00:11:56.340 --> 00:12:00.259 know, simple way. Yeah, I mean like this. And 00:12:00.259 --> 00:12:02.519 then the adult is making them more dysregulated 00:12:02.519 --> 00:12:07.299 by saying, give me this, or say this. Yeah, say 00:12:07.299 --> 00:12:10.340 that. For goodness sake. They are communicating 00:12:10.340 --> 00:12:12.700 so clearly. You clearly know what they understand 00:12:12.700 --> 00:12:15.559 because you are literally like. mirroring what 00:12:15.559 --> 00:12:18.519 they want and i think one of the one of the myths 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:21.299 that causes that issue is that if they use a 00:12:21.299 --> 00:12:25.820 different means more often they will not use 00:12:25.820 --> 00:12:31.360 spoken language it's fear of them yeah um but 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:34.720 the blip side of that is if you only allow spoken 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:37.940 you get this much compared to what their total 00:12:37.940 --> 00:12:39.500 communication is that's why it's called total 00:12:39.500 --> 00:12:41.620 communication because it's the full It's the 00:12:41.620 --> 00:12:43.899 fullness of what they want to communicate and 00:12:43.899 --> 00:12:47.320 they can communicate. And also it's the reasons 00:12:47.320 --> 00:12:49.519 that we communicate. It's not just asking for 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:51.899 things. It could be commenting on things or sharing 00:12:51.899 --> 00:12:54.360 a moment together. And those things are much, 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:58.460 much harder to get a symbol for. Yes. Or a sign. 00:12:58.620 --> 00:13:01.600 Yeah, exactly. A bit of eye contact, a lovely 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:04.820 tone of voice that shows someone I'm enjoying 00:13:04.820 --> 00:13:09.409 you being around or alerting an adult. that they're 00:13:09.409 --> 00:13:11.570 not happy, they're dysregulated, something's 00:13:11.570 --> 00:13:13.750 gone on, or they might be in pain and they can't 00:13:13.750 --> 00:13:15.289 communicate that, but you can hear the change 00:13:15.289 --> 00:13:18.169 in the tone of voice. That's really key. So it's 00:13:18.169 --> 00:13:21.149 about, it all goes back to honoring what they 00:13:21.149 --> 00:13:23.710 can bring, but providing all of those avenues 00:13:23.710 --> 00:13:25.909 as well. And I think that's why it's so exciting 00:13:25.909 --> 00:13:28.570 because I think I like to be able to go, okay, 00:13:28.649 --> 00:13:30.389 well, that's not working for you. Fine, we'll 00:13:30.389 --> 00:13:31.929 try something else. We'll try everything else. 00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:35.299 We'll literally try anything because it has to 00:13:35.299 --> 00:13:37.980 work for that individual. And when they choose 00:13:37.980 --> 00:13:41.460 something that then they are able to be successful 00:13:41.460 --> 00:13:44.840 with, they are not going to stop that. They're 00:13:44.840 --> 00:13:46.759 not going to stop that and go, oh, actually, 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:48.779 I've decided I no longer want to speak because 00:13:48.779 --> 00:13:51.059 although I can do it. So I've had parents say 00:13:51.059 --> 00:13:53.440 to me, you know, oh, they're just lazy. And I'm 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:57.100 like, no, that doesn't exist. That does not exist 00:13:57.100 --> 00:14:00.259 because how difficult is it to go and get your 00:14:00.259 --> 00:14:03.039 object and your symbol and use your body language 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:04.960 and bounce up and down and point and gesture 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:08.200 when you could just say book, juice, whatever. 00:14:08.740 --> 00:14:13.019 If they can get it out quicker, they will. And 00:14:13.019 --> 00:14:15.580 I think that's where it comes in a little bit 00:14:15.580 --> 00:14:17.139 of the kind of, well, spoken language is the 00:14:17.139 --> 00:14:18.919 top. That's the gold standard of communication. 00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:20.179 Yeah, there's like a hierarchy, isn't there? 00:14:20.419 --> 00:14:23.240 Yeah, but it's all changing now with technology. 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:27.019 I mean, we do so much on technology. We are all 00:14:27.019 --> 00:14:31.659 AAC users. We text, we voice note. Like I said, 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:34.639 we do emojis, all this kind of stuff. GIFs, what 00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:38.220 is up with that? Like that's a whole little gestalt 00:14:38.220 --> 00:14:40.220 right there. You know, if you think about it, 00:14:40.220 --> 00:14:42.340 it's like a moment with a message, with a video, 00:14:42.460 --> 00:14:45.039 something exciting. You know, if we're allowed 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:48.179 to do that, why are they not allowed to? And 00:14:48.179 --> 00:14:50.940 I think they should be allowed to use any means, 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:53.659 any means that they can. And it will help them 00:14:53.659 --> 00:14:56.039 to progress and to try different things. Yeah. 00:14:56.139 --> 00:14:58.620 They won't know and you won't know unless it's 00:14:58.620 --> 00:15:01.019 offered to give it a try. You really never know. 00:15:01.059 --> 00:15:03.379 I've been so surprised so many times. What does 00:15:03.379 --> 00:15:08.879 it look like to accept that they're... What does 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:11.320 it look like? What can it look like in the classroom? 00:15:11.820 --> 00:15:14.600 What would they be doing? And what does your 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:17.840 accepting that communication attempt look like? 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:22.820 Yeah, so I think a lot of times it's about noticing 00:15:22.820 --> 00:15:26.860 what they're doing before the words might come 00:15:26.860 --> 00:15:30.539 or before the official mode of the sign or the 00:15:30.539 --> 00:15:33.120 pointing to something. It's, okay, you can see 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:35.179 that they're body language and you want to support 00:15:35.179 --> 00:15:38.629 that. So you want to make sure that... their 00:15:38.629 --> 00:15:41.090 talkers nearby, not in a cupboard, you know, 00:15:41.110 --> 00:15:42.970 somewhere else. Well, how are they going to use 00:15:42.970 --> 00:15:45.110 that to communicate? So you want to have all 00:15:45.110 --> 00:15:47.769 these things available. And there have been many 00:15:47.769 --> 00:15:50.129 times when I can see that somebody's having trouble. 00:15:50.289 --> 00:15:54.450 So this is a child who can't understand what's 00:15:54.450 --> 00:15:56.789 going to happen and maybe why. We may not be 00:15:56.789 --> 00:15:58.649 able to explain the why, but they're not even 00:15:58.649 --> 00:16:00.330 understanding what's happening. So we're all 00:16:00.330 --> 00:16:02.049 grabbing. We'll just reach for our symbol or 00:16:02.049 --> 00:16:04.049 on your lanyard. We're like, right, this is what 00:16:04.049 --> 00:16:06.379 we're talking about. I know you're upset. this 00:16:06.379 --> 00:16:08.279 is what we're talking about and showing them 00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:11.759 that. So we're responding to them from a, they're 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:15.139 showing that they're upset and we're responding 00:16:15.139 --> 00:16:17.080 to them in a way that maybe they can't access 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:19.200 the spoken language. It's going over their head. 00:16:19.220 --> 00:16:21.299 It's too much simulation. They're already crying. 00:16:21.419 --> 00:16:23.940 They're already distressed. So it kind of goes 00:16:23.940 --> 00:16:25.659 both ways, whether they want to say something 00:16:25.659 --> 00:16:27.419 or whether you need to communicate something 00:16:27.419 --> 00:16:30.440 to them. But a lot of times it's accepting as 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:34.950 in acknowledging, noticing. and letting them 00:16:34.950 --> 00:16:36.330 know that you are there and you understand what 00:16:36.330 --> 00:16:38.509 they're trying to say and then maybe going you 00:16:38.509 --> 00:16:41.490 know modeling it back you're saying you need 00:16:41.490 --> 00:16:43.870 this you know whatever it is whether it whether 00:16:43.870 --> 00:16:46.370 they or you're you can sign it you could say 00:16:46.370 --> 00:16:48.950 oh you want more of you know biscuit whatever 00:16:48.950 --> 00:16:52.690 it is you you can model it without the expectation 00:16:52.690 --> 00:16:56.009 that they imitate it straight away because I 00:16:56.009 --> 00:16:58.730 think that's where the thing comes in that can 00:16:58.730 --> 00:17:02.129 cause problems where The expectation is there 00:17:02.129 --> 00:17:03.769 that they model it. Therefore, they wait for 00:17:03.769 --> 00:17:06.750 that prompt in order to do that because they 00:17:06.750 --> 00:17:08.930 think that's part of the routine. Not that they're 00:17:08.930 --> 00:17:11.430 being lazy. They just think it's part of the 00:17:11.430 --> 00:17:12.650 routine. They think that's what you're supposed 00:17:12.650 --> 00:17:14.710 to do. It's not like they're like, I'm just going 00:17:14.710 --> 00:17:16.869 to sit here and wait. Just be lazy. They're not. 00:17:17.009 --> 00:17:19.289 They think it's part of the routine and that's 00:17:19.289 --> 00:17:21.250 what's expected. So they wait for that bit and 00:17:21.250 --> 00:17:22.970 then they do it in the right order. They're trying 00:17:22.970 --> 00:17:26.089 to follow that rule desperately. So it's that 00:17:26.089 --> 00:17:28.589 kind of modeling, little bit of pausing, little 00:17:28.589 --> 00:17:32.170 bit of, you know. expectant waiting you know 00:17:32.170 --> 00:17:35.430 using your visual body language as well because 00:17:35.430 --> 00:17:37.890 they might actually be looking at you and going 00:17:37.890 --> 00:17:40.890 why the heck is she not doing the thing I need 00:17:40.890 --> 00:17:43.109 and you're like I know what you're trying to 00:17:43.109 --> 00:17:45.730 say I know you want this let's give it a try 00:17:45.730 --> 00:17:50.349 so it is very fine line and I always say to parents 00:17:50.349 --> 00:17:53.930 like you can accept it model it and then give 00:17:53.930 --> 00:17:56.289 it straight away so that they've been successful 00:17:57.079 --> 00:17:59.960 with their small attempt, if they could say it 00:17:59.960 --> 00:18:02.839 quicker, next time they might. They might say 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:04.759 it. Yeah, so it doesn't feel like a test. We're 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:08.839 not testing them. We're not. Absolutely not. 00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:12.680 Yeah, we're not giving them an unreasonable expectation. 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:17.319 That's right. But maybe just giving them a chance 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:19.960 of processing time, a chance to try, a chance 00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:21.819 to do it. And there's a fine balance there, isn't 00:18:21.819 --> 00:18:24.950 there, of long enough. To give them a chance, 00:18:25.029 --> 00:18:27.349 but not long enough they don't feel heard. That's 00:18:27.349 --> 00:18:29.250 right. And maybe it's different for every child, 00:18:29.309 --> 00:18:31.450 I assume. And also, you know, I've said to parents, 00:18:31.529 --> 00:18:34.069 oh, does he know that word for that thing? And 00:18:34.069 --> 00:18:35.630 they're like, oh, no, he's never said it. I'm 00:18:35.630 --> 00:18:37.349 like, well, then why would you try and wait for 00:18:37.349 --> 00:18:40.450 him to say it, to get it? If you know for sure 00:18:40.450 --> 00:18:42.890 that child's never said that word, then why are 00:18:42.890 --> 00:18:44.690 we holding out for that? Why don't we just go, 00:18:44.769 --> 00:18:46.630 oh, yeah, dinosaur, whatever it is. And whatever 00:18:46.630 --> 00:18:49.369 he's using, maybe it's teeth. you know showing 00:18:49.369 --> 00:18:52.630 the teeth or rough yeah exactly so it has to 00:18:52.630 --> 00:18:54.849 be something you know the child that can do in 00:18:54.849 --> 00:18:57.690 order for you to pause that nanosecond longer 00:18:57.690 --> 00:19:00.490 to allow them that time to give them that like 00:19:00.490 --> 00:19:03.150 this is this is my cue I gotta do something I'll 00:19:03.150 --> 00:19:04.970 try that thing that I tried that time and it 00:19:04.970 --> 00:19:06.809 worked before and oh look it's worked again because 00:19:06.809 --> 00:19:09.710 you're showing them by allowing them to be successful 00:19:09.710 --> 00:19:12.769 you're not making them be successful you're allowing 00:19:12.769 --> 00:19:16.240 them and it means you have to wait for them It 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:18.339 also means you have to use their language just 00:19:18.339 --> 00:19:20.420 as much as you're expecting them to use ours, 00:19:20.579 --> 00:19:24.960 right? So their gestalt phrases, their animal 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:28.039 sounds rather than the animal names maybe, their 00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:31.660 flaps, their stims maybe, their reaching, their 00:19:31.660 --> 00:19:34.539 jumping, that they're excited, you know, that 00:19:34.539 --> 00:19:37.339 to them is speaking their language. So there's 00:19:37.339 --> 00:19:41.039 far less pressure on them to fail because actually, 00:19:41.140 --> 00:19:45.700 have you ever tried to mimic a vocal stim? It 00:19:45.700 --> 00:19:49.099 is so difficult. Like what I've got, I'm thinking 00:19:49.099 --> 00:19:52.039 of one particular pupil and he did this like 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:54.180 kind of thing, right, right at the back of his 00:19:54.180 --> 00:19:57.549 throat. And me and my team, I was like, let's 00:19:57.549 --> 00:20:00.109 try and speak his language. And I could not do 00:20:00.109 --> 00:20:04.190 it. We could not physically do it. And God, this 00:20:04.190 --> 00:20:06.630 is exactly what we are asking them to do when 00:20:06.630 --> 00:20:08.309 we're asking them to sign, when we're asking 00:20:08.309 --> 00:20:10.109 them to give eye contact, when we're asking them 00:20:10.109 --> 00:20:13.170 to whatever it is. It just feels, I know what 00:20:13.170 --> 00:20:14.970 I have to do. I know what I want it to sound 00:20:14.970 --> 00:20:18.069 like. I can't make my mouth do it. And he is 00:20:18.069 --> 00:20:20.789 an expert in that. He could do it. Yeah. And 00:20:20.789 --> 00:20:24.009 it was just a really lovely reminder of actually 00:20:24.009 --> 00:20:27.650 their language is hard to learn too. And if we 00:20:27.650 --> 00:20:29.210 kind of try and meet in the middle, meet on that 00:20:29.210 --> 00:20:33.690 bridge. Yeah. Then it feels more neuro affirming 00:20:33.690 --> 00:20:36.309 to me because we're both feeling challenged. 00:20:36.650 --> 00:20:39.430 We're both struggling and we're both really trying 00:20:39.430 --> 00:20:42.430 to hear each other equally rather than pulling 00:20:42.430 --> 00:20:45.470 them over to our side of the bridge fully. Yeah. 00:20:45.549 --> 00:20:49.210 I really like that analogy. yeah are there any 00:20:49.210 --> 00:20:51.930 communication attempts that you wouldn't accept 00:20:51.930 --> 00:20:55.109 or that you would maybe react differently to 00:20:55.109 --> 00:20:58.130 or how yeah that's an interesting question like 00:20:58.130 --> 00:21:02.210 I think I would always accept and notice and 00:21:02.210 --> 00:21:05.390 acknowledge whatever behavior is coming out um 00:21:05.390 --> 00:21:07.950 because that behavior whether they intentionally 00:21:07.950 --> 00:21:11.420 mean it to say something to you directly It's 00:21:11.420 --> 00:21:13.940 giving me information about their mental state, 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:19.099 their emotional state, what's going on. And actually, 00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:21.079 it may give me more information that I need to 00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:22.960 ask more or find out more to explore with them 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:25.299 because they might not even know. So a lot of 00:21:25.299 --> 00:21:29.920 the children who are non -speaking will have 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:33.630 so much trouble, even just... feeling the feelings 00:21:33.630 --> 00:21:35.950 inside their own body from a sensory point of 00:21:35.950 --> 00:21:38.170 view and then translating that into some kind 00:21:38.170 --> 00:21:40.450 of language of like spoken language or signing 00:21:40.450 --> 00:21:42.890 or anything just it's almost impossible and then 00:21:42.890 --> 00:21:45.369 there's also that sometimes they get overwhelmed 00:21:45.369 --> 00:21:48.730 by sensory things they can't tease it out or 00:21:48.730 --> 00:21:52.029 they're actually seeking that that sensory sensation 00:21:52.029 --> 00:21:53.990 because they're not they're not their body's 00:21:53.990 --> 00:21:55.750 not giving them that feedback so they're trying 00:21:55.750 --> 00:21:58.309 to get it so there may be like there's definitely 00:21:58.309 --> 00:21:59.849 been times when children have done something 00:21:59.849 --> 00:22:03.759 where it's you realize it it's because they they're 00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:05.740 having that unmet need and they're doing something 00:22:05.740 --> 00:22:08.180 that you would say that that's not safe and you 00:22:08.180 --> 00:22:11.240 can tell them i mean obviously if a child's gonna 00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:14.099 you know run into a road you absolutely can't 00:22:14.099 --> 00:22:15.619 just go right i'll just you know wait and see 00:22:15.619 --> 00:22:17.339 what they know like you just you have to grab 00:22:17.339 --> 00:22:19.839 them and go you know this isn't safe but it's 00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:22.640 things like it's things like you know biting 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:25.859 you're there or they go to pull your hair okay 00:22:25.859 --> 00:22:28.180 that's Is that telling you I hate you or want 00:22:28.180 --> 00:22:30.900 you to die? No, it's telling you I need something 00:22:30.900 --> 00:22:33.400 and I really can't figure out how to tell you 00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:36.579 what it is. Or I might not even know exactly 00:22:36.579 --> 00:22:39.160 what it is myself. This is the quickest way I 00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:41.799 know to get help or to get support or to get 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:44.279 you out of my space or whatever it is that you're 00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:46.319 needing at that time. Exactly. And then sometimes 00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:48.819 you've got to think about. combination of things 00:22:48.819 --> 00:22:50.640 sort of making them safe using their language 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:52.599 of touch as well so obviously if they're touching 00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:55.700 to show you know they're upset whether they're 00:22:55.700 --> 00:22:57.319 doing something that could be injuring somebody 00:22:57.319 --> 00:23:00.460 else you can use your touch in a gentle way but 00:23:00.460 --> 00:23:03.140 also you can remove that touch so that it might 00:23:03.140 --> 00:23:05.220 be that it's too much for them you have to know 00:23:05.220 --> 00:23:08.079 your child and that just comes from spending 00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:10.839 loads and loads of time with them yeah yeah i 00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:13.079 think that's the point isn't it it's it has to 00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:15.099 come relationship building has to come first 00:23:15.099 --> 00:23:20.000 they have to trust you so If, you know, ignoring 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:22.339 any attempt of communication, however unsafe 00:23:22.339 --> 00:23:25.920 it could be or ineffective or inappropriate, 00:23:26.259 --> 00:23:28.640 it could be on a social level. More likely inappropriate. 00:23:28.940 --> 00:23:32.380 Yeah, exactly. However it is, it's still an attempt 00:23:32.380 --> 00:23:34.500 to meet their needs or be understood, isn't it? 00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:37.819 That's ultimately what it is. And I've never, 00:23:37.859 --> 00:23:41.660 ever seen malicious or calculated, ever. I've 00:23:41.660 --> 00:23:44.140 worked for 16 years in autistic children. It 00:23:44.140 --> 00:23:47.329 is always to do with... seeking a need trying 00:23:47.329 --> 00:23:49.390 to get their needs met trying to be understood 00:23:49.390 --> 00:23:52.029 trying to get the quickest way like you say they're 00:23:52.029 --> 00:23:55.329 not lazy trying to get the most effective way 00:23:55.329 --> 00:23:57.990 of creating the environment that they need right 00:23:57.990 --> 00:24:00.069 there and sometimes that looks unsafe and inappropriate 00:24:00.069 --> 00:24:02.490 doesn't it yeah yeah yeah like i suddenly need 00:24:02.490 --> 00:24:04.490 to climb super high you know yeah yeah because 00:24:04.490 --> 00:24:06.470 you actually i just need to get out of here and 00:24:06.470 --> 00:24:10.049 sometimes up is the quickest way out Yeah. For 00:24:10.049 --> 00:24:12.589 example, exactly that. Exactly that. And it's 00:24:12.589 --> 00:24:14.910 not well thought out. Sometimes it's just in 00:24:14.910 --> 00:24:16.990 the moment. I mean, these kids are very present. 00:24:17.109 --> 00:24:19.549 It's second by second, isn't it? Especially in 00:24:19.549 --> 00:24:22.210 my class, it's very second by second. But you 00:24:22.210 --> 00:24:26.329 can acknowledge it without, with also offering 00:24:26.329 --> 00:24:29.309 a safer alternative. That's right, yeah. Or you 00:24:29.309 --> 00:24:32.910 can be there for them and show that you're here 00:24:32.910 --> 00:24:35.819 and ready for them when they're ready. Without 00:24:35.819 --> 00:24:39.920 any verbal, without any physical, without offering 00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:42.440 anything, just by being there, just your body 00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:46.420 language in the space and having had, like I 00:24:46.420 --> 00:24:48.640 was just saying, having had that strong relationship 00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:51.180 built before. So when they're not in that five 00:24:51.180 --> 00:24:55.319 mode, you've played together, you've related 00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:58.220 to each other, you've had those lovely cuddles, 00:24:58.220 --> 00:25:02.140 tickles, eye contact. moments you've built those 00:25:02.140 --> 00:25:04.819 up so that when these moments do happen where 00:25:04.819 --> 00:25:06.920 it's maybe inappropriate maybe safe maybe hurting 00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:10.140 behaviors then you've still built that trust 00:25:10.140 --> 00:25:13.000 that you've got that strong foundation that you 00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:15.579 know it's the tower's not going to come crashing 00:25:15.579 --> 00:25:18.880 down it's okay we can manage this this is this 00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:21.779 is tiny in comparison to all this wonderful stuff 00:25:21.779 --> 00:25:24.240 that we've built up it's okay i'm here you remember 00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:27.180 that time just before i was here for you i'm 00:25:27.180 --> 00:25:30.670 here exactly so ignoring behaviors doesn't feel 00:25:30.670 --> 00:25:34.089 right for me yeah no and also what you're saying 00:25:34.089 --> 00:25:37.529 is about the memory like they're going to remember 00:25:37.529 --> 00:25:41.190 the previous experiences and we do not we can 00:25:41.190 --> 00:25:45.329 really underestimate how amazing how like rich 00:25:45.329 --> 00:25:48.390 these children's memories are for things that 00:25:48.390 --> 00:25:50.640 are almost something we wouldn't even be able 00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:52.440 to articulate ourselves in words like the memories 00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:55.539 of the feelings of experiences of moments when 00:25:55.539 --> 00:25:58.160 something has like utterly calmed them and all 00:25:58.160 --> 00:25:59.940 of those those those things because if you think 00:25:59.940 --> 00:26:01.559 about it they're not spending all of their time 00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:03.559 putting that into language all the time that 00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:05.619 they're just remembering they're holding it as 00:26:05.619 --> 00:26:08.279 that that like like a core memory this is all 00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:10.460 i can think of is like these core memories and 00:26:10.460 --> 00:26:13.180 they come they come back to that so if every 00:26:13.180 --> 00:26:16.059 time they do something that could be something 00:26:16.059 --> 00:26:18.160 you want you don't really want to happen or could 00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:20.940 be unsafe or could be hurting if you respond 00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:24.839 in a really negative way that could be for them 00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:28.700 scary and actually causing them to be really 00:26:28.700 --> 00:26:31.079 worried about that situation then they're only 00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:33.559 going to ever associate those two things together 00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:36.259 so you've got to figure out a way of being close 00:26:36.259 --> 00:26:38.480 like you said with your body just proximity just 00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:42.390 being close to them i'm not gonna leave you but 00:26:42.390 --> 00:26:44.490 I'm going to keep myself safe from you, but I'm 00:26:44.490 --> 00:26:47.190 going to be available for you. That really is 00:26:47.190 --> 00:26:51.690 the thing. And I think it's so individual and, 00:26:51.710 --> 00:26:54.049 like you say, moment to moment that there's no 00:26:54.049 --> 00:26:56.809 quick, oh, yes, just follow steps one to six. 00:26:57.089 --> 00:27:00.210 It's also so hard to not want to just fix it. 00:27:00.569 --> 00:27:02.569 I know. Because sometimes it's really hard to 00:27:02.569 --> 00:27:04.630 understand what they need and sometimes offering 00:27:04.630 --> 00:27:08.029 all the choices makes it worse. And it's so hard 00:27:08.029 --> 00:27:11.369 to see somebody you care so deeply about so stressed 00:27:11.369 --> 00:27:14.650 and emotional. I mean, God, I'm just a teacher. 00:27:14.670 --> 00:27:17.690 I don't know how parents manage it. God, that's 00:27:17.690 --> 00:27:20.569 a whole other level, isn't it? Seeing your most 00:27:20.569 --> 00:27:25.430 loved person in the world so stressed, so anxious 00:27:25.430 --> 00:27:29.650 and not being able to know what to do to fix 00:27:29.650 --> 00:27:32.119 it. And knowing that even if you attempt it, 00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:34.279 it's going to make it worse is just the worst. 00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:37.220 Yeah. It's the worst. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you 00:27:37.220 --> 00:27:39.039 know, then you get all the guilt of like, you 00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:40.480 know, you've got to get them out of the house 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:42.099 and you've got to get them to these things. And 00:27:42.099 --> 00:27:44.339 it's like, actually, that's not a battle that 00:27:44.339 --> 00:27:46.359 you want to have to worry about when you're just 00:27:46.359 --> 00:27:50.380 trying to, both of you, keep yourself sane and 00:27:50.380 --> 00:27:53.500 safe and happy and comfortable and, you know, 00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:56.819 connected and not, you know, because that's really, 00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:59.960 that's the security that. that is needed in that 00:27:59.960 --> 00:28:01.799 moment and like you said it comes from that relationship 00:28:01.799 --> 00:28:05.259 and it comes from experience um of being together 00:28:05.259 --> 00:28:07.480 and relating in lots of different ways so you 00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:10.319 know it's safe yeah an example of this i'm just 00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:13.500 aware we're we're both aware of lots of in lots 00:28:13.500 --> 00:28:16.640 of situations and i i know we can kind of get 00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:18.019 ahead of ourselves a little bit so people are 00:28:18.019 --> 00:28:20.579 listening kind of what i'm talking about and 00:28:20.579 --> 00:28:21.680 i don't know if you'd agree actually marissa 00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:23.259 it'd be interesting to see what you think about 00:28:23.259 --> 00:28:26.599 this we had a pupil in my class who was headbanging 00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:31.700 a lot And we weren't sure if it was pain or migraines 00:28:31.700 --> 00:28:34.119 or seizures even, or we weren't sure if it was 00:28:34.119 --> 00:28:36.500 communication. And after observing for a few 00:28:36.500 --> 00:28:38.740 months of this, it was clear it was communication. 00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:42.599 It was when there was an unmet need or when we 00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:44.680 weren't going fast enough, when they needed to 00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:47.619 wait or when it was a no or when there was a 00:28:47.619 --> 00:28:49.859 barrier in place for whatever reason. So it was 00:28:49.859 --> 00:28:51.940 communication. We ruled out pain. I think it's 00:28:51.940 --> 00:28:54.400 always important to... to work out if there's 00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:56.619 a medical need. So we rolled out pain. We had 00:28:56.619 --> 00:28:59.539 the approval from GPs, pediatricians, that it 00:28:59.539 --> 00:29:02.440 wasn't pain, it's communication. So we thought, 00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:05.980 okay, right, great. And what they wanted was 00:29:05.980 --> 00:29:08.359 to be swaddled and wrapped. That's what they 00:29:08.359 --> 00:29:11.720 wanted. And the quickest way to get our attention 00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:16.559 was to headbang, both fists in the temples, really 00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:20.220 hard. And of course we came running. Of course 00:29:20.220 --> 00:29:23.259 you do, because... You want to fix it. Like I 00:29:23.259 --> 00:29:25.420 was just saying, you want to fix it. But all 00:29:25.420 --> 00:29:28.299 this was doing was it was reinforcing. This is 00:29:28.299 --> 00:29:30.819 the fastest way and the most effective way that 00:29:30.819 --> 00:29:35.779 you can get us. So what we had to do as a team 00:29:35.779 --> 00:29:41.220 was act really fast, like emergency. It is like, 00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:44.970 let's go. When she first looked at the swaddle 00:29:44.970 --> 00:29:47.990 blanket or when she started moving towards the 00:29:47.990 --> 00:29:50.230 swaddle blanket before she'd done the hitting. 00:29:50.329 --> 00:29:53.529 Or when she was just doing a slight little flicker 00:29:53.529 --> 00:29:54.710 of the finger. I mean, this means you need to 00:29:54.710 --> 00:29:57.690 know the children so well. Because there's tiny 00:29:57.690 --> 00:30:02.150 little moments we were noticing just before. 00:30:02.250 --> 00:30:05.150 And we would try and treat those as way more 00:30:05.150 --> 00:30:07.930 emergent than the head banging. Because then 00:30:07.930 --> 00:30:11.099 that told her. If you gesture or if you come 00:30:11.099 --> 00:30:12.680 and get us or if you reach for your blanket, 00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:15.160 that's an even faster and more effective way 00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:19.279 of getting us to help you than headbanging. So 00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:24.000 it's been 18 months now and now she will walk 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:27.339 over to her blanket. She will pick it up. She 00:30:27.339 --> 00:30:29.400 will walk and find the nearest adult, sometimes 00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:32.500 even the child in our class, and hold it up and 00:30:32.500 --> 00:30:38.480 wait like this. And it's only because... We were 00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:43.019 so consistent and tried to be so understanding, 00:30:43.140 --> 00:30:47.079 so vigilant with her cues and tried not to fix. 00:30:47.259 --> 00:30:50.160 We tried so hard. We believed ourselves. We trusted 00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:53.440 ourselves. I trusted our gut. Actually, she didn't 00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:55.440 want to be hurting herself either. We know she 00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:58.720 didn't. It was just the most effective way. And 00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:02.000 now looking at her, I just couldn't be prouder. 00:31:02.180 --> 00:31:06.230 I really couldn't. Like on Friday. She got through 00:31:06.230 --> 00:31:09.089 the whole day and there was no self -harm at 00:31:09.089 --> 00:31:12.829 all. And she had the best day. And I could just 00:31:12.829 --> 00:31:16.450 tell she feels so understood because her needs 00:31:16.450 --> 00:31:18.130 are met. So I think when we're talking about 00:31:18.130 --> 00:31:21.349 total communication, that has to come into it 00:31:21.349 --> 00:31:25.130 too, that we acknowledged her communication attempt, 00:31:25.470 --> 00:31:29.730 however unsafe it was. We saw it as communication. 00:31:29.750 --> 00:31:33.269 We saw it as really important. And then we worked 00:31:33.269 --> 00:31:36.430 as a team to help her find an even more effective 00:31:36.430 --> 00:31:41.150 way. But it didn't feel nice at first, I have 00:31:41.150 --> 00:31:43.890 to say. It really didn't. Because there were 00:31:43.890 --> 00:31:47.109 moments where we had to, where she was hitting 00:31:47.109 --> 00:31:49.170 herself and we were stood there with the blanket, 00:31:49.289 --> 00:31:52.829 just waiting until she put her hands down and 00:31:52.829 --> 00:31:55.569 then went, blanket. You know, you did it. You 00:31:55.569 --> 00:31:58.069 did it. You know, blanket. Oh my gosh. You know, 00:31:58.069 --> 00:32:01.109 and... and it was really hard we had to really 00:32:01.109 --> 00:32:04.369 trust ourselves to know that like she's gonna 00:32:04.369 --> 00:32:07.410 get this she's gonna get this and the team had 00:32:07.410 --> 00:32:11.210 to trust each other too because if a few people 00:32:11.210 --> 00:32:14.490 wavered it would only reinforce that you know 00:32:14.490 --> 00:32:17.289 the best way you can do is self -harm which is 00:32:17.289 --> 00:32:19.970 so hard and we're teachers as well like the parents 00:32:19.970 --> 00:32:21.349 were incredible as well parents were doing it 00:32:21.349 --> 00:32:24.500 everyone was doing it around her was trying to 00:32:24.500 --> 00:32:26.960 acknowledge these tiny little things that she 00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:28.940 was doing beforehand. And those little tiny things 00:32:28.940 --> 00:32:31.440 were those little tiny bits of communication 00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:35.220 that she was able to do prior to that. Because 00:32:35.220 --> 00:32:38.779 for her, it was quite quick. For her, it was 00:32:38.779 --> 00:32:41.660 like, I need it and I need it now. Or maybe for 00:32:41.660 --> 00:32:44.880 her, it was really bubbling. But for us, it looked 00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:47.480 like it went from zero to 60 in seconds. But 00:32:47.480 --> 00:32:49.720 maybe for her, she could feel it. But it took 00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:53.319 that long to... Yeah, for her to get to that 00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:56.359 point. So you helped her kind of to the point 00:32:56.359 --> 00:32:58.839 where she can even develop her awareness so that 00:32:58.839 --> 00:33:01.339 she can plan so far ahead that she can go and 00:33:01.339 --> 00:33:02.940 get it and go and bring it. It's incredible. 00:33:03.740 --> 00:33:06.319 And not only that, so now that's the blanket, 00:33:06.380 --> 00:33:08.460 but now she does it with the cup. Now she does 00:33:08.460 --> 00:33:09.859 it with snack. Now she does it with object of 00:33:09.859 --> 00:33:11.680 reference. Now she does it with her chair. She 00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:13.980 does it, you know, and she will do it with, she's 00:33:13.980 --> 00:33:18.880 using a GoTalk. So like AAC, digital AAC. She's 00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:20.720 started to use it with that. And it's like, god 00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:24.259 this you know just by acknowledging those attempts 00:33:24.259 --> 00:33:30.019 it has shown her that you know she can communicate 00:33:30.019 --> 00:33:32.599 and be understood because before that the only 00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:35.039 way she could be understood was hurting herself 00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:37.279 and she didn't want to hurt herself i mean think 00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:40.319 how desperate a person has to be to be understood 00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:43.559 and not lazy to be understood to hurt yourself 00:33:43.559 --> 00:33:46.650 to the extent that Finally, people come and listen 00:33:46.650 --> 00:33:50.349 to me. I mean, gosh. And this isn't an isolated 00:33:50.349 --> 00:33:55.029 case. I mean, most of my messages are about very 00:33:55.029 --> 00:34:00.369 similar situations. And the teachers are trying 00:34:00.369 --> 00:34:03.029 to fix it quickly without actually thinking of 00:34:03.029 --> 00:34:06.329 the why. Yeah, absolutely. And you've highlighted 00:34:06.329 --> 00:34:08.829 one of the key things there. She's now got multiple 00:34:08.829 --> 00:34:13.030 means of communicating. She'll bring the blanket. 00:34:13.690 --> 00:34:15.869 she'll bring the cup she'll bring the objects 00:34:15.869 --> 00:34:18.650 of reference but she's also starting to use a 00:34:18.650 --> 00:34:21.150 talker that she can communicate with where she 00:34:21.150 --> 00:34:23.690 can do that as well it may be that when she's 00:34:23.690 --> 00:34:25.670 feeling that dysregulation she will literally 00:34:25.670 --> 00:34:27.489 just grab the blanket and that's but that also 00:34:27.489 --> 00:34:30.739 is that's fine because it's equal It's equal. 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:32.699 It's absolutely equal. It's not like, oh, but 00:34:32.699 --> 00:34:34.960 now that you can press buttons on your talker, 00:34:35.019 --> 00:34:37.239 now you have to go and get the talker and then 00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:39.820 go to page with the blanket on it. No, you can 00:34:39.820 --> 00:34:44.699 just bring the blanket. We do. So we wrap her 00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:46.699 in the blanket and then we get her talker and 00:34:46.699 --> 00:34:49.780 we sign blanket on her talker. But that's not 00:34:49.780 --> 00:34:52.300 a barrier to her getting the blanket. She's already 00:34:52.300 --> 00:34:55.400 wrapped in it. She's got it. Yeah, but you're 00:34:55.400 --> 00:34:57.730 just modelling. Then we model, yeah. So it's 00:34:57.730 --> 00:35:01.929 almost like accept the communication attempt, 00:35:02.309 --> 00:35:07.150 meet the need, and then once they've got their 00:35:07.150 --> 00:35:09.130 needs met. So if it's drink, okay, I'm reaching 00:35:09.130 --> 00:35:10.969 for the cupboard, I'm reaching for orange juice, 00:35:11.010 --> 00:35:12.829 or maybe I'm going to climb onto the worktop, 00:35:12.829 --> 00:35:14.809 I get that a lot, to get the orange juice because 00:35:14.809 --> 00:35:16.389 that's how I'm going to ask for it. That's the 00:35:16.389 --> 00:35:19.789 most effective way of getting what I want. Okay, 00:35:19.869 --> 00:35:23.550 do you... Do you go and get their iPad and sign 00:35:23.550 --> 00:35:25.909 orange juice and then make it? Or do you make 00:35:25.909 --> 00:35:28.550 it and then sign it? I mean, I would make the 00:35:28.550 --> 00:35:31.030 orange juice and then I would show it. Also, 00:35:31.150 --> 00:35:34.269 I would use what you have to hand. I'd be signing, 00:35:34.469 --> 00:35:37.010 drinking at the same time and then get the talk 00:35:37.010 --> 00:35:40.730 around. And so that is a way of you saying, I'm 00:35:40.730 --> 00:35:42.230 allowing all of these forms of communication. 00:35:42.449 --> 00:35:45.369 They're all equally accepted. And therefore, 00:35:45.530 --> 00:35:48.030 I want to give you the opportunity to use what 00:35:48.030 --> 00:35:51.199 you can. when you can and maybe put something 00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:54.139 else in place like where they normally climb 00:35:54.139 --> 00:35:56.519 onto the worktop maybe put a sound button on 00:35:56.519 --> 00:35:59.599 there or maybe put a symbol or maybe put a voice 00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:02.000 it's about being creative i mean you're looking 00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:04.039 at so creative don't you yeah you're looking 00:36:04.039 --> 00:36:06.420 at like that's where they climb okay well let's 00:36:06.420 --> 00:36:08.380 look at the situation and and part of that is 00:36:08.380 --> 00:36:10.440 that is part of total communication as well which 00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:13.929 is you know it's all about it's all about tuning 00:36:13.929 --> 00:36:16.750 in and if you pay attention you have to like 00:36:16.750 --> 00:36:18.829 kind of chuck your own agenda out the window 00:36:18.829 --> 00:36:21.369 and go right i'm gonna tune into you first and 00:36:21.369 --> 00:36:24.590 then we're gonna work our way towards and that's 00:36:24.590 --> 00:36:28.090 that's the best way that i've ever found so right 00:36:28.090 --> 00:36:29.989 from right at the beginning you said it starts 00:36:29.989 --> 00:36:34.710 with observation and you will, I hope that after 00:36:34.710 --> 00:36:37.050 you've listened to this, so it's September, you've 00:36:37.050 --> 00:36:38.469 listened to this, you've maybe got a new class, 00:36:38.510 --> 00:36:39.670 maybe you've got a couple of new students in 00:36:39.670 --> 00:36:41.710 your class. I really hope that next time you're 00:36:41.710 --> 00:36:44.650 in your class or in your home, you sit back and 00:36:44.650 --> 00:36:47.769 you observe what they are communicating or what 00:36:47.769 --> 00:36:49.449 they're not able to communicate, like just climbing 00:36:49.449 --> 00:36:51.769 on the worktop and getting their drink or then 00:36:51.769 --> 00:36:54.550 they didn't attempt to communicate with you because, 00:36:54.590 --> 00:36:56.349 but they're still trying to find their needs. 00:36:56.429 --> 00:37:00.429 So you've observed that. And then the next question 00:37:00.429 --> 00:37:03.269 is, What can I put in place in order to make 00:37:03.269 --> 00:37:05.809 that easier for them to access that or communicate 00:37:05.809 --> 00:37:08.010 that? Also, something that gives them the opportunity 00:37:08.010 --> 00:37:10.530 to communicate. Because if they haven't got a 00:37:10.530 --> 00:37:13.429 symbol and they're non -speaking, how are they 00:37:13.429 --> 00:37:16.489 going to get you to get the drink? They're like, 00:37:16.570 --> 00:37:18.210 well, I'm just going to get the quickest way 00:37:18.210 --> 00:37:21.070 to do it. We should be honoring the very cleverness 00:37:21.070 --> 00:37:23.949 of going, that's how to problem solve. I mean, 00:37:24.010 --> 00:37:28.039 that is a solution, right? I think, you know, 00:37:28.039 --> 00:37:30.460 I've seen a lot of times where it's like, oh, 00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:32.280 no, no, we don't climb on cobblers. That's not 00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:34.780 the aim. The aim was to, you know, get the drink. 00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:38.320 It's to be at the top. Everybody knows that. 00:37:38.440 --> 00:37:40.420 Also, sometimes that is the aim, but just in 00:37:40.420 --> 00:37:43.679 this situation. Also, that can be the aim. And 00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:46.500 then we go, and you need to climb. Let's do some 00:37:46.500 --> 00:37:49.099 climbing. I suppose the only thing we need to 00:37:49.099 --> 00:37:52.280 be careful about when we're saying, like, let's. 00:37:52.510 --> 00:37:54.010 I can't remember what you just said. You didn't 00:37:54.010 --> 00:37:55.969 say, let's not make it easy. You said, let's 00:37:55.969 --> 00:37:59.110 create opportunities. The only thing that doesn't 00:37:59.110 --> 00:38:01.630 mean, and I need to be really clear about this, 00:38:01.730 --> 00:38:05.010 is purposefully putting barriers in place to 00:38:05.010 --> 00:38:06.969 force communication. So I just need to be really 00:38:06.969 --> 00:38:08.849 careful, really clear about that. I know that's 00:38:08.849 --> 00:38:10.829 not what you meant at all. I know that. I just 00:38:10.829 --> 00:38:13.510 don't want people to hear create opportunities 00:38:13.510 --> 00:38:17.130 because... In my, not that long ago, 10 years 00:38:17.130 --> 00:38:20.590 ago in my career, I was putting snack in lidded 00:38:20.590 --> 00:38:23.469 clear boxes and getting children to give eye 00:38:23.469 --> 00:38:27.610 contact to open it. Like there is no way I shudder 00:38:27.610 --> 00:38:29.650 at the thought, but I did it. And lots of us 00:38:29.650 --> 00:38:31.969 did it because that was what we were taught back 00:38:31.969 --> 00:38:35.309 then. That is also putting in opportunities to 00:38:35.309 --> 00:38:38.269 communicate. However, that is not total communication 00:38:38.269 --> 00:38:40.989 because that child was already reaching for the 00:38:40.989 --> 00:38:43.909 snack or that child was already. I don't know, 00:38:43.929 --> 00:38:46.630 yeah, guiding me to the box. That was enough. 00:38:46.710 --> 00:38:49.550 That should have been enough for me to open the 00:38:49.550 --> 00:38:51.010 packet for them and give them one. And meet the 00:38:51.010 --> 00:38:53.090 need and then model the, like you said. And then 00:38:53.090 --> 00:38:55.329 model it. And that's how it's changed, I think, 00:38:55.409 --> 00:38:58.989 over the last decade. I really think that it 00:38:58.989 --> 00:39:01.650 has changed a lot from what is common practice. 00:39:01.829 --> 00:39:04.989 Obviously, not everybody's doing the same things. 00:39:05.030 --> 00:39:09.070 I think there are still a lot of more. traditional 00:39:09.070 --> 00:39:10.949 old -fashioned kind of ways of doing things that 00:39:10.949 --> 00:39:13.030 people are slowly like making changes but change 00:39:13.030 --> 00:39:17.170 takes time I mean even your example of your student 00:39:17.170 --> 00:39:20.570 who you're you the way that you described it 00:39:20.570 --> 00:39:22.409 is like she really struggled with that and now 00:39:22.409 --> 00:39:25.570 18 months later she we need to we need to think 00:39:25.570 --> 00:39:29.929 about what that means right so what often people 00:39:29.929 --> 00:39:32.769 will think is well you're gonna start to fix 00:39:32.769 --> 00:39:34.949 something and tomorrow it's gonna be different 00:39:34.949 --> 00:39:38.000 you know We're celebrating that it was 18 months 00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:41.760 later and she's now doing what this is her pace 00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:45.780 that she can handle and what was needed. So we 00:39:45.780 --> 00:39:51.119 really need to stop imposing our timeline. Yeah, 00:39:51.139 --> 00:39:53.280 our timelines, because we really don't know. 00:39:53.500 --> 00:39:56.000 And it's one of the questions that as a speech 00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:59.059 therapist, I get a lot from parents. When is 00:39:59.059 --> 00:40:00.860 it going to happen? When are they going to talk? 00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:02.639 When are they going to communicate more? When 00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:04.539 are they going to start doing this? How do you 00:40:04.539 --> 00:40:06.619 navigate that? Because I have questions like 00:40:06.619 --> 00:40:09.280 that. And I want to have high expectations of 00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:11.360 my students. But because I see communication 00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:15.599 as equal, my aim is for them to be able to communicate 00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:19.179 effectively. Whereas often the parents' aim is 00:40:19.179 --> 00:40:22.619 to get them to speak. And I really struggle to 00:40:22.619 --> 00:40:25.760 answer that question without just simply saying, 00:40:25.860 --> 00:40:30.320 I just want them to communicate. you know however 00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:32.059 that is but i know that's not what they want 00:40:32.059 --> 00:40:34.900 to hear yeah i know and i think you're right 00:40:34.900 --> 00:40:37.539 and i think i think there's two things that i 00:40:37.539 --> 00:40:40.000 often say like first of all i will say i don't 00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:42.800 know because i'm not gonna lie i have no idea 00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:46.800 what's gonna happen um i'm actually it's so weird 00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:49.639 that i'm genuinely almost surprised when it does 00:40:49.639 --> 00:40:51.659 happen and you're like even i've been trying 00:40:51.659 --> 00:40:53.809 at this for like you know as you say 18 months 00:40:53.809 --> 00:40:55.489 and it's finally worked and we surprise ourselves 00:40:55.489 --> 00:40:57.849 like they surprise us and we're like of course 00:40:57.849 --> 00:41:00.230 it works because we did try all the things but 00:41:00.230 --> 00:41:02.630 it's a wonderful moment but like I think also 00:41:02.630 --> 00:41:06.829 that if we change if we change what the goal 00:41:06.829 --> 00:41:10.289 is right if we if we go not just the spoken language 00:41:10.289 --> 00:41:12.789 bit which is just here if we bring it out ripple 00:41:12.789 --> 00:41:15.489 it out what do they really really want because 00:41:15.489 --> 00:41:19.550 actually what they really want is to have a relationship 00:41:19.550 --> 00:41:21.789 with their child that's what they really want 00:41:22.170 --> 00:41:24.769 And you can get that whilst you're working on 00:41:24.769 --> 00:41:27.570 all kinds of communication. And you can still 00:41:27.570 --> 00:41:29.449 value that. And I think that's where the thing 00:41:29.449 --> 00:41:33.250 is. And there is a sense of like, maybe they 00:41:33.250 --> 00:41:37.429 might not use full, just spoken language and 00:41:37.429 --> 00:41:40.130 get rid of all these other things. Maybe they'll 00:41:40.130 --> 00:41:44.389 use this, you know, talker. They might use some 00:41:44.389 --> 00:41:46.960 sign. They might. They might use some spoken 00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:48.900 language, but it might not be massively clear. 00:41:48.980 --> 00:41:50.860 But you might be able to then use it within your 00:41:50.860 --> 00:41:52.940 family. Others might struggle, which is why they 00:41:52.940 --> 00:41:55.440 still need these additional supports in place. 00:41:55.719 --> 00:41:59.099 But it might be that they do all of those things 00:41:59.099 --> 00:42:01.480 forever. And I do say that to parents. It may 00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:04.300 be that they are a total communicator for life. 00:42:04.739 --> 00:42:06.360 And there's not like they're going to pick one 00:42:06.360 --> 00:42:08.039 and they're going to go, right, that's my favorite 00:42:08.039 --> 00:42:09.860 mode. I'm going to only use that mode. We don't 00:42:09.860 --> 00:42:13.699 do that either. It's just that we are in a predominantly 00:42:13.699 --> 00:42:19.769 speaking. world us us speakers that is yeah I 00:42:19.769 --> 00:42:21.710 think they want me to I think they want to hear 00:42:21.710 --> 00:42:24.530 from me that it's at least possible yes and I 00:42:24.530 --> 00:42:26.610 would say I would always say it's possible because 00:42:26.610 --> 00:42:30.190 yeah honestly it's so hard though isn't it because 00:42:30.190 --> 00:42:32.530 I don't want them no absolutely but I also don't 00:42:32.530 --> 00:42:34.070 want that to be the sole aim because I think 00:42:34.070 --> 00:42:36.170 then you're losing sight of what really matters 00:42:36.170 --> 00:42:39.679 to the child like is the child's main aim to 00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:41.920 be speaking i don't know not always actually 00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:44.280 probably their main aim is to be understood more 00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:46.380 often yeah i think it's better to like maybe 00:42:46.380 --> 00:42:50.519 have goals aimed at what the child yeah and actually 00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:53.420 if you talk to any adult who's looking after 00:42:53.420 --> 00:42:55.739 a child in any capacity they're going to say 00:42:55.739 --> 00:42:58.599 i want them to feel like they're understood and 00:42:58.599 --> 00:43:00.579 valued as a human being yeah and actually you 00:43:00.579 --> 00:43:03.239 can achieve that without getting to that so if 00:43:03.239 --> 00:43:05.059 we can bring it back to those really fundamental 00:43:05.059 --> 00:43:08.440 goals that are underneath Yeah. It just feels 00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:12.079 quite ableist, doesn't it? For your absolute 00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:15.099 hope, wants and wishes to be speaking. It's almost 00:43:15.099 --> 00:43:17.000 like your hopes, wants and wishes to be walking, 00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:21.840 you know, for a non -ambulant student. It feels 00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:25.199 unfair, doesn't it? That should be the be all 00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:26.539 and end all. That should be the ultimate hope 00:43:26.539 --> 00:43:28.980 and dream. It just feels a bit ableist to me. 00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:32.360 And actually, I'd love to be living in a world 00:43:32.360 --> 00:43:36.260 where everyone sees it as literally equal. And 00:43:36.260 --> 00:43:38.079 yeah, they come down to the fundamentals of, 00:43:38.139 --> 00:43:40.099 yeah, I want a relationship. I want them to feel 00:43:40.099 --> 00:43:42.440 understood. I want them to feel fulfilled in 00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:45.380 life. I want them to be safe. And I'm not having 00:43:45.380 --> 00:43:48.659 low expectation. No. Denuinely not. It really 00:43:48.659 --> 00:43:50.820 isn't. It's just about, yeah, thinking about 00:43:50.820 --> 00:43:54.320 person first and what they actually want. Yeah. 00:43:54.519 --> 00:43:58.480 Yeah. It's hard. I mean, and I think that's one 00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:03.599 of the things that that whole struggle. for parents 00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:06.900 and people like yourselves educators speech therapists 00:44:06.900 --> 00:44:10.320 who are working day in day out with children 00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:12.980 and loved ones who they really want that connection 00:44:12.980 --> 00:44:15.659 with they really want that communication um and 00:44:15.659 --> 00:44:18.900 there is something out there that obviously we've 00:44:18.900 --> 00:44:22.079 talked about already which is high -tech AAC 00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:26.599 devices like and it's like that this is we're 00:44:26.599 --> 00:44:30.500 in such an exciting time of life right now because 00:44:31.279 --> 00:44:35.219 Technology has moved like so quickly. When I 00:44:35.219 --> 00:44:38.380 was younger, nobody had cell phones. I know. 00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:40.460 There you go. I'm American. I'm out of myself 00:44:40.460 --> 00:44:42.739 now. Sorry. Nobody had the mobile phones, right? 00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:44.800 Now we have mobile phones. We can connect to 00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:46.880 anybody. We can use all these means to communicate, 00:44:47.019 --> 00:44:50.840 right? And that hasn't quite caught up to mainstream 00:44:50.840 --> 00:44:54.719 non -speaking children. But like you say. It 00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:56.519 is moving in that direction. You've got children 00:44:56.519 --> 00:44:58.820 who use objects and symbols and just all these 00:44:58.820 --> 00:45:00.219 robust AACs. It's only going to get more affordable 00:45:00.219 --> 00:45:02.340 as well, isn't it? More accessible, more affordable. 00:45:02.860 --> 00:45:04.679 It's so different now, yeah. And I think this 00:45:04.679 --> 00:45:06.179 will probably be a good time for me to talk about 00:45:06.179 --> 00:45:07.159 the campaign. Yeah, I was going to say, you've 00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:09.760 got an AAC campaign, right? Yeah. Can you tell 00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:12.079 us a bit about that? Yeah, it's called Let Them 00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:15.340 Have Their Voices. And we basically started it, 00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:18.719 myself and Dan Harris, who is the founder of 00:45:18.719 --> 00:45:21.639 Neurodiversity in Business. via social media 00:45:21.639 --> 00:45:24.199 because he's got a son who is called the joshy 00:45:24.199 --> 00:45:28.039 man and he's a non -speaking autistic boy he's 00:45:28.039 --> 00:45:32.800 11 and he um he uses a talker to communicate 00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:35.519 now he only got this a few years ago prior to 00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:40.320 this he had situations where he was really frustrated 00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:43.460 like your students like you've talked about and 00:45:43.460 --> 00:45:45.400 like some of my students that i've worked with 00:45:45.400 --> 00:45:49.059 and they obviously were trying all these total 00:45:49.059 --> 00:45:51.679 communication things. And what they found was 00:45:51.679 --> 00:45:54.960 that there are actually a lot of barriers around 00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:59.139 access to these devices, which as you say, they 00:45:59.139 --> 00:46:02.079 are more affordable now. So they should be something 00:46:02.079 --> 00:46:04.719 that is readily available, but we still haven't 00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:07.099 caught up from that kind of, from a infrastructure 00:46:07.099 --> 00:46:08.940 from the government and the NHS and all of that. 00:46:09.619 --> 00:46:12.780 So his parents purchased a device for him, got 00:46:12.780 --> 00:46:14.679 him some software and they've worked with their 00:46:14.679 --> 00:46:15.920 speech and language therapists and they've... 00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:18.280 They've got him using it. It's brought on so 00:46:18.280 --> 00:46:20.760 much communication, not just through the talker. 00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:24.159 He's now spelling. He's now using his voice more, 00:46:24.219 --> 00:46:26.260 saying a lot of words, approximating a lot of 00:46:26.260 --> 00:46:28.039 words that may be hard to understand sometimes 00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:30.820 by some people. But he's he's trying everything. 00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:35.179 And I had an experience with a client of mine 00:46:35.179 --> 00:46:38.059 who inspired me in that way. So that's how I 00:46:38.059 --> 00:46:39.980 kind of met Dan. And we're like, I was talking 00:46:39.980 --> 00:46:41.380 about this client I was working with. He was 00:46:41.380 --> 00:46:42.840 talking about his son. I was just like, oh, my 00:46:42.840 --> 00:46:45.219 gosh. And we were sitting there like, well, what 00:46:45.219 --> 00:46:47.900 are we going to do about it? We can't just sit 00:46:47.900 --> 00:46:49.219 here complaining about it. What are we going 00:46:49.219 --> 00:46:50.940 to do about it? Okay, let's do something about 00:46:50.940 --> 00:46:53.739 it. Okay. And then we did. So it was November 00:46:53.739 --> 00:46:59.199 last year. We said, well, we'll just start this 00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:01.500 campaign. Let's raise some money. Let's just 00:47:01.500 --> 00:47:03.599 start with that. We'll raise some money. We'll 00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:07.559 get people to, we'll get companies to donate 00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:12.090 some iPads. funds in and we'll purchase software, 00:47:12.210 --> 00:47:14.530 put it on them, get people to apply so that they 00:47:14.530 --> 00:47:16.349 can work with their local team, whoever they've 00:47:16.349 --> 00:47:19.110 got, teachers, speech therapists, parents, carers, 00:47:19.130 --> 00:47:21.710 all of that to help them get this, to try it 00:47:21.710 --> 00:47:24.849 out. Because what we found was, and we did some, 00:47:24.849 --> 00:47:27.449 we did some research around, like we did some 00:47:27.449 --> 00:47:30.150 surveys with parents and carers and it was heartbreaking. 00:47:30.269 --> 00:47:31.789 And also with speech and language therapists 00:47:31.789 --> 00:47:35.829 about these barriers. And, you know, on the one 00:47:35.829 --> 00:47:38.409 hand you have the, we've managed to get it. It's 00:47:38.409 --> 00:47:41.360 amazing. Our life has changed. absolutely change 00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:44.760 things that doesn't mean the child is like reciting 00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:47.380 sonnets on their AAC that's not what it means 00:47:47.380 --> 00:47:50.539 it means they could be saying I like pink it's 00:47:50.539 --> 00:47:55.099 healthy pizza please you know more tickles it 00:47:55.099 --> 00:47:57.500 could be that that's the life -changing they're 00:47:57.500 --> 00:47:59.500 talking about and on the other hand you have 00:47:59.500 --> 00:48:02.480 the the current like the kind of the way that 00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:05.239 the criteria is sometimes the process is that 00:48:05.239 --> 00:48:07.039 you've got to sort of demonstrate that you can 00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:10.800 do a lot more But these children haven't got 00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:13.980 to that point of doing the whole sentence within. 00:48:14.239 --> 00:48:17.380 But if you think about it, that's also imposing 00:48:17.380 --> 00:48:21.380 our spoken language format. I'm seeing it in 00:48:21.380 --> 00:48:24.920 my car. So one of the barriers to get AAC in 00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:28.039 our county is they need to show distance and 00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:30.400 persistence. So it means they need to travel 00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:36.250 and transition across an area to a person. with 00:48:36.250 --> 00:48:41.210 something to communicate. Now, with an iPad that 00:48:41.210 --> 00:48:42.789 speaks for you, even with spoken, you wouldn't 00:48:42.789 --> 00:48:45.110 have to do that. You could shout and be communicated 00:48:45.110 --> 00:48:46.909 and heard. You wouldn't have to show distance 00:48:46.909 --> 00:48:49.610 and persistence. And I'm blessed enough to have 00:48:49.610 --> 00:48:52.269 everyone's got an iPad in my room because we've 00:48:52.269 --> 00:48:55.969 fundraised for them. But it's proven to us that 00:48:55.969 --> 00:48:58.090 those children that weren't showing distance 00:48:58.090 --> 00:49:01.030 and persistence have shown great skills and progress 00:49:01.030 --> 00:49:05.829 with the high -tech AAC. poppycock it's not it's 00:49:05.829 --> 00:49:07.889 not a prerequisite from a clinical or evidence 00:49:07.889 --> 00:49:11.070 -based practice it's just currently it's a prerequisite 00:49:11.070 --> 00:49:14.489 for the funding aspect yeah but we want all that 00:49:14.489 --> 00:49:17.949 to change so we are not hoping to raise all the 00:49:17.949 --> 00:49:19.710 funds for all the people that will ever need 00:49:19.710 --> 00:49:23.420 AIC because we that's not That's not the solution. 00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:25.659 The solution is to change the system so that 00:49:25.659 --> 00:49:27.760 it works better. From the foundation, yeah. That's 00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:30.179 it. So we're just trying to help in the meantime 00:49:30.179 --> 00:49:32.199 to show, oh my goodness, look at the difference. 00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:34.460 Because a lot of people don't realize, like you 00:49:34.460 --> 00:49:36.719 and I see these kinds of people all the time. 00:49:37.139 --> 00:49:39.420 So what does the campaign look like? What are 00:49:39.420 --> 00:49:41.719 you doing? How can people find out more about 00:49:41.719 --> 00:49:45.219 it? How can people get involved? Okay, so excitingly, 00:49:45.219 --> 00:49:49.699 we have literally today, Dan has delivered, Dan 00:49:49.699 --> 00:49:52.079 Harris. Father of the Joshy Man. Joshy is amazing. 00:49:52.179 --> 00:49:54.000 You can follow him on Instagram. I will put all 00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:56.739 the details in the show notes for you or wherever 00:49:56.739 --> 00:49:58.599 you put them. Definitely include this. But anyway, 00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:02.559 Joshy Man. So Dan delivered a letter to 10 Downing 00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:05.719 Street to push this issue. But also off the back 00:50:05.719 --> 00:50:09.460 of this, he's actually just come back from... 00:50:09.800 --> 00:50:14.719 earlier doing a giving giving evidence for the 00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:18.260 at the house of lords for the 2009 autism act 00:50:18.260 --> 00:50:21.719 committee so basically he talked about the non 00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:23.739 -speaking autistic population and then we started 00:50:23.739 --> 00:50:25.679 talking about the campaign and that that had 00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:29.139 some really positive kind of impact so from that 00:50:29.139 --> 00:50:31.039 side of things we're we're talking to the right 00:50:31.039 --> 00:50:33.599 people we're raising little bits of money we 00:50:33.599 --> 00:50:36.539 definitely need more but what we want to do is 00:50:36.539 --> 00:50:40.269 make the most change that we can. And I think 00:50:40.269 --> 00:50:42.969 what we'd love is for people to check out our 00:50:42.969 --> 00:50:45.530 website, which is freetalker .org. There's a 00:50:45.530 --> 00:50:48.110 lot of information about AAC, about the campaign, 00:50:48.230 --> 00:50:50.309 about our socials and stuff like that. We're 00:50:50.309 --> 00:50:53.429 a very small, teeny tiny team of very passionate 00:50:53.429 --> 00:50:57.130 people, mostly teachers, speech therapists, parents, 00:50:57.769 --> 00:51:01.929 all round passionate, crazy people that cannot 00:51:01.929 --> 00:51:05.539 sit by and wait for somebody else to do it. So 00:51:05.539 --> 00:51:07.599 we are doing our little bit in our little part 00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:10.739 of the world. However, the campaign has actually 00:51:10.739 --> 00:51:13.320 been able to donate devices in other countries 00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:15.860 as well. So we've got USA, Dan's off to Brazil 00:51:15.860 --> 00:51:19.280 soon. You know, we really want to make a big 00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:22.519 change. We know it's going to happen. We know, 00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:24.599 know, know, because obviously everybody's using 00:51:24.599 --> 00:51:27.250 the telephone now, right? And we all have smartphones 00:51:27.250 --> 00:51:29.309 and we all have Alexas in our house, you know, 00:51:29.329 --> 00:51:31.929 that kind of thing. It's coming. So it is going 00:51:31.929 --> 00:51:34.050 to happen. But we just want to keep pushing that 00:51:34.050 --> 00:51:36.130 forward. And we don't want to stop. Because in 00:51:36.130 --> 00:51:38.070 the meantime, we could be missing all these amazing 00:51:38.070 --> 00:51:40.190 people and what they've got to say. Which isn't 00:51:40.190 --> 00:51:43.889 good enough. Absolutely. No. So, yeah. And the 00:51:43.889 --> 00:51:45.550 reason it's called Let Them Have Their Voices 00:51:45.550 --> 00:51:47.309 is we're not giving them a voice. They've got 00:51:47.309 --> 00:51:50.010 a voice. We just need to be able to listen to 00:51:50.010 --> 00:51:53.329 it in a way that we can understand it. having 00:51:53.329 --> 00:51:55.929 that AAC like you said these students weren't 00:51:55.929 --> 00:51:59.150 able to go across the room but yet they can tap 00:51:59.150 --> 00:52:02.409 it and go and because they've got that immediate 00:52:02.409 --> 00:52:05.889 feedback because it's such a nice it's like cause 00:52:05.889 --> 00:52:08.110 and effect feeling of tapping that thing hearing 00:52:08.110 --> 00:52:10.849 that noise that gives them that patterned routine 00:52:10.849 --> 00:52:13.610 that they need to feel confident with the kind 00:52:13.610 --> 00:52:16.630 of process and that is the voice is the same 00:52:16.630 --> 00:52:19.969 every time yeah exactly it's so autism friendly 00:52:19.969 --> 00:52:23.030 isn't it it screens it's there's no eye contact 00:52:23.030 --> 00:52:25.510 needed the voice is the same every time so it's 00:52:25.510 --> 00:52:28.489 predictable it's all of that yeah yeah i can 00:52:28.489 --> 00:52:31.969 totally see why um why it works and if in the 00:52:31.969 --> 00:52:33.590 meantime obviously check them out and if in the 00:52:33.590 --> 00:52:36.639 meantime you're interested to communicate with 00:52:36.639 --> 00:52:38.820 your child, but you can't afford an iPad or an 00:52:38.820 --> 00:52:41.880 app, don't let that be a barrier. There are one 00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:43.599 loads of great organizations out there. You can 00:52:43.599 --> 00:52:45.059 go to a speech and language therapist. You can 00:52:45.059 --> 00:52:49.000 go to your GP. You can use low -tech AAC. Just 00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:51.860 use something. Use objects around you. Use photos. 00:52:53.400 --> 00:52:56.019 anything it's okay it's like we said before it's 00:52:56.019 --> 00:52:58.940 all equal that's it's just about having everything 00:52:58.940 --> 00:53:01.840 accessible as an even an option and that's what 00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:04.039 this is about isn't it it's having it as an option 00:53:04.039 --> 00:53:07.699 yeah um yeah thank you so much marissa this has 00:53:07.699 --> 00:53:11.800 been so important i would love everybody to head 00:53:11.800 --> 00:53:15.400 over to the all the stuff in the description 00:53:15.400 --> 00:53:17.860 in the show notes to check you out the campaign 00:53:17.860 --> 00:53:20.980 joshie all of it and thank you so much we haven't 00:53:20.980 --> 00:53:22.820 spoken this deeply about total communication 00:53:22.820 --> 00:53:25.039 before and it's really needed so thank you i'm 00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:27.099 so glad yeah anytime it is literally my favorite 00:53:27.099 --> 00:53:30.929 topic even though i'm definitely a speaker yes 00:53:30.929 --> 00:53:33.789 i also use my face i'm using my face it's so 00:53:33.789 --> 00:53:37.230 important um yeah thank you so much for the opportunity 00:53:37.230 --> 00:53:40.070 it's been a great conversation and i really hope 00:53:40.070 --> 00:53:42.269 that it's helpful for your listeners i really 00:53:42.269 --> 00:53:45.170 do i know it will be yeah thank you so much marissa 00:53:45.170 --> 00:53:46.929 take care thank you bye