Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education
teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything
communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson
ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged
4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in
the field answering your questions and sharing
our knowledge and experience working alongside
our beautiful young people. Let's get started.
Hello everybody and welcome to the Sensory Classroom
podcast. My name is Jordan and you are here today
with Sunflower Autism, Julia, who is a consultant
based in Bromley for neurodiversity and is also
neurodivergent herself and I'd like to talk about
neurodivergent. in females because it can look
very different, it's very misunderstood and often
masked to the high heavens and our children in
our classes, our female neurodivergent children
in our classes are often missed and it's seen
as lots of different things and I'd like to discuss
that today with Julia and her wonderful business.
Hi Julia, welcome. Hi, thank you so much for
having me, it's an absolute pleasure. This is
my favourite thing to talk about so I'm really
happy. Awesome, it's lived experience right?
Yes, literally. We're just saying, even getting
on here today, getting through the tech, it was
a new app for me that I'd never used. Using headphones
I've never used before. Obviously, new things
change. Change to the routine is all challenging.
And it's interesting that you say that. It's
not always seen. And I think that sentence really
rings true, doesn't it? I'm one of those. maskers.
I'm one of those females that's a massive masker.
Usually a lot of people were very surprised when
I was diagnosed later on as being neurodivergent
because I'm that swan, you know, I'm the swan.
I look in control. I look, I'm always fairly
well presented -ish, you know, might talk about
that later. That's part of my OCD, but so I always
kind of look. You know, I've done my hair, I've
done my makeup, I'm clean -ish, you know, as
are my kids usually, not at the end of the day.
I'm usually managed to get around and do things
and, you know, I look like a very functioning
adult from the outside. Obviously, as a lot of
us know, I am kicking under the surface and behind
the scenes, it's really only, probably only my
husband, Nick. Salute Hero. Shout out to him.
He really helps me. And without him, to be honest,
I don't think I'd be where I am. I think a lot
of people talk about masking. It's almost a bit
of a buzzword. I'm not sure if everyone fully,
fully understands it. Do you want to explain
what that is for you? Because I guess it's different
for every individual. But what is masking to
you? When does it happen? Are you even conscious
that it's happening? Why is it happening? What
does it look like? And what does unmasking look
like as well? Because maybe that will help reveal
what the masking is, kind of masking, I suppose.
Yes, great questions. So I had no idea that I
was a masker. And so I must also say that I've
worked in a field of autism in particular and
neurodiversity for nearly 20 years. It's my absolute
passion in life. It's something I fell into when
I was younger by accident. I started working
in a school to get some experience and it turned
out the kids there were autistic and I was like,
this is amazing. And that was it. And it was
absolutely, that was nearly 20 years ago, showing
my age. It's been my absolute passion. I've also
then moved into ADHD. Did you know anything about
yourself at that stage 20 years ago? So 20 years
ago, I knew I was dyslexic. So the age of 11,
I was diagnosed with dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia,
mouthful. And I'd always struggled at school
academically. But looking back, I realised everything
was always blamed on the fact that I was an only
child. And I don't know if you've spoken to anyone
else that's had this, but I've spoken to a few
people that I've worked with, families I know
that I've either worked with or supported or
that I've just met. where this is the case. And
so I look back and realize now, I mean, A, it
was the 80s and the 90s. So obviously, as we've
already said, a lot of these things were missed
or underdiagnosed in girls because the diagnostic
criteria was based on the male presentation,
mostly, and because of masking, which I will
come back to, by the way. I'm going around. This
is a long way around. No, it's good. It's good
to know the background. Yeah, it's context. Yeah,
I think it's important information. So I was
always put in this bot. So I had these three
cousins as well, and they were all really academic.
Two of them went to Cambridge and one of them
went to Oxford, just to give you some background.
Comparison's very unfair right from the off,
isn't it? Yeah, it was immediately there. I was
always the creative one, quote unquote, because
I was into like singing and acting and whatever
else, because I wasn't. quote academic and so
for 38 years and like I say a lot of things were
very much blamed on the fact oh she's an only
child a lot of my childhood was I heard oh she's
got verbal diarrhea I heard she's um Julia's
showing off again was a phrase that my mum used
to use which now it makes me cringe you know
my late mum who you know I love very much but
obviously had no idea what yeah actually what
was going on so it looked quite like confidence
it looked quite in your face it was but actually
when you were so that this is quite useful for
the confident children that may be in our class
what was really happening there was there a lot
of anxiety and or a lot of trying to fit in and
those kind of things 100%. I think it was overcompensating
is the word I'd use. I think it was probably
low -level anxiety, although I didn't realise
it for years. I didn't realise it was anxiety.
It was trying to fit in 100%. It was masking.
It was fawning, you know, this like extreme people
-pleasing that female neurodivergent people tend
to do. And it was, I think, and then a lot of
it was... I was actually obviously overwhelmed
and having meltdowns. But, you know, again, this
came out. It was also hyperactivity. I think
it was how I think hyperactivity can present
not just in girls, but in girls and boys. But
it can very much present as this kind of showing
off, quote unquote. Again, hate that saying that,
but that's what it looks like maybe or feels
like. This kind of, yes, this. acting showing
off the class clown we we talk about that yeah
those quick dopamine hits those like yeah because
those stimulants almost aren't they to kind of
keep your focus to keep I mean I could totally
relate to everything you're saying to keep almost
grounded in a way and stimulated and like in
the moment I have to kind of keep having those
dopamine hits and the making people laugh making
people react was a really great way of getting
that grounded like I am here I am in space I
am seen I am heard that kind of like here so
I can totally I could totally relate with everything
you're saying and then yet in other classes I
was so overwhelmed I was actually very lost and
I I don't think teachers ever questioned why
I had report cards And were constantly told off
and kept behind in some lessons. And yet totally
unseen and quiet and so timid to not even ask
a question in others. And they never noticed
that. And it was dependent on the peers around
me. It was dependent on the class structure,
who I was sat next to. It was a completely different
character. And that's what masking looked like
in one situation completely to another. And I
was a completely different person. I guess because
of secondary school, it being so many different
teachers that never communicate with each other.
They never could build that picture of what was
actually happening across my day. I suppose in
primary school, when you've got one teacher,
it might. have not happened as much as like obviously
as that could you relate to that kind of feeling?
100 % the spiky profile yeah 100 % never could
I just couldn't understand why no I literally
my GCSEs have got three A's four B's and three
D's and I could never understand why am I getting
A's in A's of course was like uh music and drama
which was my passions that i loved so obviously
i was really motivated i was working really hard
it was very practical side of it and then obviously
it was the maths and the science because i'm
very terrible dyscalculia even now taxes bring
me out in a cold sweat you know and so that was
where i was literally having panic attacks and
actually There was a couple of incidents where
the mask slipped, interestingly, and I remember
I stormed out the classroom a couple of times
during maths. Obviously, I now realise that was
overwhelming meltdown, really. And it was very
rare, but that mask, because you asked about
the masking, it did slip, you know, now and then.
And it definitely... I think it was coming off
at home because, like I say, I think I was having
these outbursts and these meltdowns and it was
always, oh, Julia's overtired because we've had
family to stay and she's an only child, she's
not used to it. It was always kind of blamed
on that, interestingly, I realise now. I've heard
in lots of females it's blamed on hormones as
well. They're over -emotional or they're hormonal
or it's that time of the month that's kind of
blamed on these external factors, which could
play a part. We've got all of those going on
as well. But it also can be overwhelmed, dysregulation
and that unmasking, can't it? So, yes, I'm one
of those people where, as you say, probably with
yourself, like looking back, it's really obvious
once you look back with the lens of, you know,
I had the same report cards. Lots of people have
talked too much. I remember I was quite sporty.
Well, I could have been quite sporty because
I'm quite tall. And like my sports teachers always,
always got quite frustrated with me and said,
oh, you could be so... sporty julia if you if
you tried and if you cared but i'm just not competitive
i'm only competitive with myself i'm not competitive
with other people and i just wasn't into it just
wasn't motivated by it you know so it just wasn't
my thing and you could there was a very clear
from very early on yeah you could really see
again that spiky profile like the things i was
interested in the things that kept the dopamine
going um and kept me motivated and interested
and stimulated did go okay which luckily for
me you know I'm I was lucky I suppose that some
I found some things that did go well but yes
like I say I was always put in this this box
I was the creative one that haunted me for years
and to be honest I always say I mean this is
true I really genuinely thought I was I was thick
until the age of 38 when I received my diagnosis
of ADHD which is sad isn't it looking back really
I genuinely thought even though by that time
I had a degree I had a master's degree I speak
fluent French. I'm bilingual because I lived
in Switzerland for six years. Lots to love a
story. That's a whole other therapy session.
But you still thought you... I was running a
business, running my business. Yeah. And I really
genuinely thought I was creative because these
terms I've been, I feel, and I don't want to
blame people, you know, I'm... Labelled. So people
are talking about not labelling, but you're being
labelled anyway, aren't you? And I think that's
really important to mention that people are going
to label. no matter whether they're going to
label you as lazy or creative or not willing
to try or disruptive or class clown. They're
labelling you. Yeah, and I do feel it came from
family, from teachers. I'm not blaming anyone,
but that's just what I heard. When I heard you're
creative, the subtext of that was, but you're
not very clever. And what I took from that was
you're thick. And so that's really genuinely
what I thought. And I still have to battle those
thoughts even now. I really genuinely did. So
exactly, I always say to people, it's better,
I would have preferred to have the label of ADHD
than creative. Yeah, that's what it is. How did
that feel at 38? Because did you go for the private
diagnosis? Let's talk about that process. So
you must have lived all your life and into your
adult life of wondering. why you feel a little
bit different or how did that kind of come to
be that you would then go for the diagnosis and
then I was really interested in your feelings
having received that as well yes it's interesting
so well yes and no I think I always felt different
subconsciously but equally there was a lot of
things I just thought everybody did like I used
to have well still do sometimes unfortunately
i used to have like quite a lot of panic attacks
often on the side of the road one of my massive
triggers is directions like i know people say
oh i'm terrible with directions but i mean i
literally cannot get from a to b i'm following
a map on even now on my phone i can see it you
know right very clearly like it says go here
and i can't do it my brain just really struggles
is that linked with uh dyslexia and your way
of visualizing and and interpreting what you're
seeing and hearing yes i think so and my adhd
coach has said since that because i do see a
coach who says that um yeah it's it's definitely
an adhd thing as well that people we have this
thing where we can't visualize things you know
I'm terribly like decorating, random example,
but like, because I can't see in my mind, like
what that's going to look like. Like the end
result. Yeah, we struggle to see B. We know we're
at A, we know we need to get to B, but we can't
quite figure out how to get there or what that's
going to look like. So I would literally, and
I had this job, I mean, you can't believe it.
My job was literally to go to people's houses
to work with their... families you know because
they had autistic children and so every day i
was finding new people's houses and and i was
literally standing on this i mean i'm laughing
now but of course at the time it's one of those
ones where it was horrible i was standing on
the side of the street having panic attacks like
literally hyperventilating and vomiting from
panic attacks like and i thought everyone just
did that for quite a long time uh which sounds
silly now of course and it sounds silly given
i've worked in this field for so long but it
was one of those things where i just didn't recognize
it in myself for a very long time. And so then
what happened was, so I started Sunflower Autism
Consultancy in 2019 after having my two babies
and having worked in the field for a long time,
I thought, right, I'm going to take all of my
knowledge, all my studies, all my experience,
and I'm going to help as many people as I can,
basically, mostly parents, but also young people
and late diagnosed adults, sort of mentoring,
giving advice, strategy, support. And then it
was Autism Awareness Week. And I did a series
of interviews. I interviewed Temple Grandin.
Little shout out. That's a little claim to fame.
I know most people go, who? So I'm quite excited
that you know who that is. No, that's very exciting.
For me, that was big. Queen of autism. Yeah,
literally. For me, that was big. So that was
amazing. That was a highlight. Yeah, she's wonderful.
obviously wonderful must say anyway so I interviewed
I interviewed a series of women I decided to
focus on women so there is this theme I suppose
in my life where yeah there's this like I've
always been surrounded by neurodivergent women
in a way and that bring me on to my daughter
in a bit as well but so I interviewed all these
fascinating women from different walks of life
different professions and they were all neurodivergent
and it was I loved it anyway I spoke to this
woman and she does something similar to myself
just you know runs a similar organization and
she started She had a dual diagnosis. Now, this
was about five, six years ago. So bear in mind,
this was pre the spikes in us understanding ADHD,
particularly in women, I'd say. Especially in
women, yeah. Yeah. So even then, I was still,
I'll be honest and freely admit, like, embarrassingly,
that I still really had this picture of a little
boy being very hyper and running around, you
know. Yeah. Yeah, I'd really... focused on autism
mostly up until this point. So there I was thinking,
oh yeah, you know, I know loads about autism.
And she was talking about being autistic. And
I was thinking, yeah, I know all of this. And
then, and then she started talking about having
ADHD. And you can see in this interview, I literally
go, my face starts going like halfway through.
I'm like, she's literally describing me. She's
describing my brain. I think she was talking
about uh the computer analogy where you have
lots of like tabs open yeah like tabs open and
i think she was talking about buzzy bees and
the feeling of just having a really busy brain
and struggling to do one thing and then how that
becomes overwhelming and she gets emotional and
i was literally like oh my god like a literal
light bulb moment i was like that is me and i
was like whoa i'd never ever ever it's never
crossed my mind And she must have explained it
very well. So I thought, wow. And of course started
the Googling, obsessive Googling, which was like,
ironically, probably another characteristic.
Exactly. And was like, wow, okay. So then I spoke
to a colleague of mine. I work alongside quite
a lot of psychologists, psychiatrists, various
professionals, and this psychologist friend.
I said, listen, what do you think about this?
And she sort of went, well, yeah, now you mention
it. I just wrote a few things down that came
to mind. You know, that I can't, I don't drive,
can't drive because, oh gosh, no way. I would
have panic attacks and kill people. Cooking,
I've set the house on fire. I mean, literally,
you name it. Ridiculous stories that honestly
sound like they're made up. I've spent thousands
of pounds getting on the wrong flights, you know,
et cetera. That again, my long suffering hero
of a husband is usually bailing me out, putting,
literally putting out the fires, literally. And
so when I started, of course, thinking about
my childhood, I was like, hang on a minute. I
did have these imaginary friends and I did have
a doorknob instead of a blanket. which I took
everywhere till I was 18. This is so embarrassing,
isn't it? But all these things. It's not embarrassing.
This is a real experience and you're not the
only one. And I think so many people listening
to this will have children or they themselves
will be able to relate to everything you're saying.
And it's actually very validating. It isn't ridiculous.
That's the point. I don't know what the figures
are right now because they're changing so dramatically
as females are learning. This is what new eye
divergence feels like and is. And we're not seeing
it in public because... I don't know, the low
support needs of us know to hide it. We know
that it looks ridiculous or that it should be
unseen. So our husbands, like you said right
at the beginning, are the only ones that are
seeing these problems, these disabilities, and
are supporting us to manage with life, even though
we are so capable and so incredible at other
things. Like you said, you've got a degree, you've
got a master's, and you're a consultancy business.
You are so capable at those other things. But
the reality of having this diagnosis is that
there are lots of things that are incredibly
difficult for us, which other people just take
for granted, like putting something in the oven
and remembering to take it out at the right time
and being focused enough to do that, you know?
That is something that people wouldn't even need
to think about, which is such a huge demand on
our whole system to do that. 100%. So, yeah,
so I did go down the private route because I'm
impatient and I thought, I just can't wait. I
need to know. I was just like, I need to, I want,
because I was literally at this point, I was
like, obviously about probably 85 % convinced.
And I just thought, I need to know. And you've
been waiting long enough. Yeah, I was like, I've
waited 38 years. I need to know now. I did have
to pay, but I thought, listen, for me, it's worth
it. And I had, I was a bit nervous, well, obviously
very nervous. And I had. You know, I don't want
to sound biased or anything, but sometimes I've
had some bad experiences with male doctors being
quite condescending. And so I was a bit nervous
because I could see it was a male consultant
psychiatrist. Were you nervous about judgment?
Or what were they, what was that nerve? Let's
talk about that. What were you nervous about?
Nervous that they wouldn't agree with you? Nervous
that you wouldn't see what you're seeing, believe
you? those things yes i think so i think i was
i was really nervous that he'd be really condescending
and just yes like not believe me completely invalidate
me um just from previous i'm not saying like
all doctors like that obviously not and but i
have had experiences lots of adults in your life
had been up to that point yes exactly i had been
dismissed I don't want to say I've been dismissed
by everyone because that's not fair because my
parents were very loving and very supportive
in other ways. But yes, when it came to this,
I had been completely, yeah, it felt like I felt
I'd not been believed. Yeah, so I was very worried
about that, I think. But he was lovely. I was
really lucky and he was absolutely lovely. And
actually, it was funny because I said, of course,
I used to do this thing and I'm trying not to
do it anymore, but where I would be very self
-critical and make comments, derogatory comments
about myself. in the middle of a sentence, I'd
sort of say, God, I'm not making any sense, am
I? Or sorry, it doesn't make any sense. Or because
I'd sort of panic. And which obviously, again,
is all kind of linked in, isn't it, with ADHD.
And so at one point, I sort of said to him, oh,
am I rambling up complete rubbish? This doesn't
make any sense. And he said, no, this makes complete
sense. And actually, all your answers were very
good and quite detailed. Because you have to
fill in, you know, like the questionnaire and
everything. And that was really... Very validating.
Very emotional, actually. I got quite emotional.
I did shed a tear. Shed a few tears even during
the assessment. Just at the fact that he was
lovely and kind and validating. And seeing you,
yeah. And hearing. It's a very vulnerable position
to be in, to put yourself all out there. You
know, nobody wants to... do that you've been
hiding all these things about yourself and feeling
shame i suppose about all these things about
yourself and all of a sudden you're putting them
out there to a stranger that's going to judge
you on them of course you're going to be feeling
a million percent and even though now i realize
this has made me a million times better at my
job and like supporting other neurodivergent
people of course it does because i realize i
have a lot of lived experience and it's helped
me with my daughter but at the time i felt yeah
very embarrassed that i don't know it sounds
silly now but at the time yes i felt very embarrassed
very like you say you are very vulnerable you're
basically admitting you know aren't you really
to the world that you do struggle and because
i had masked i think so much i really showing
any weakness is is a big deal to me and so it
was yeah it was a lot of emotions and then there
was definitely soon quite soon did they tell
you yes he basically said yeah on the spot yeah
well partly because there wasn't I'm quite lucky
in my life in that I hadn't like suffered any
huge traumas or any bad mental health there was
no sort of like what's the word like comorbid
conditions or do you know what I mean like it
hadn't been a misdiagnosis so it could only be
a neurodivergence it couldn't have come from
any experience exactly although obviously sad
things have happened to me in my life like everybody
but there wasn't anything do you know what I
mean that else it could have been yeah really
he said it's a clear cut case that it's not like
anxiety from from an environmental situation
or a familial situation it's it's that and also
because you could see some very clear examples
from childhood which all came flooding back to
me once i started honestly blocked out so much
stuff i'd blocked out because i'm quite good
at compartmentalizing and blocking things out
i now realize and all these things came flooding
back from my childhood um which made complete
sense with this lens and then hearing him say
that what was going through your head you know
you've got validation but what else have you
got going on when you're hearing those words
you have adhd i think some anger and some frustration
looking back particularly at my teachers so one
of my memories that came back to me was really
my first ever memory of school which was i think
i was i was in reception you know i was so four
or five and i remember this really really clearly
and i was in the classroom and i had this awful
teacher she was horrid and i did find out she
was actually later sacked for bullying children
so it wasn't just me um and she was one of those
like older people she'd been there for 40 years
man and boy and had obviously her way of doing
things and this would have been i don't know
the late 80s so i suppose you know and she was
just berate me and we had every friday we had
a spelling test and a maths test out of 10 with
little books i remember it so well and everyone
was getting eight or nine out of ten and i was
getting two or three out of ten This was also
my dyslexia, my dyspraxia, my dyscalculia. God,
it's asking you to do everything you can't do.
Very unfair. Sit still, concentrate, be quiet.
Yeah, right. All of the things. And literally,
yeah, literally talk about setting me up to fail.
And so instead of thinking, oh, this child. might
need some help she's not doing very well she
literally made me stand up in front of the you
know 25 children and berated me every friday
which yeah it was pretty awful four and five
is so well at any age i mean i i would struggle
coping with that as an adult yeah quite as a
child Who's so vulnerable. That must have had
such an impact on everything moving forward.
Yeah, I think that really stayed with me. And
that's one of the reasons why I had this image
of myself and all these, yeah, very negative.
So yes, so some interesting things came back.
So definitely some frustration, I think, and
some anger. You know, really every emotion, you
do go through a lot of emotions, don't you? And
you process it. And even now I have good weeks
and bad weeks. Weeks where I think, oh, this
is... So annoying. It's just frustrating. But
also weeks where I smash it. I guess that's the
nature of it, isn't it? It's so extreme. And
it is that spiky profile. But it definitely has
shaped me and shaped the support I provide for
families, shaped my parenting, and made me passionate
about helping people understand the neurodiversity.
I just did a talk last week for a group of parents
online about... talking to your child about their
neurodiversity and the amount of people who don't
really think to do that is actually unbelievable
and I'm really passionate and exactly for these
reasons we've just discussed. So what's the benefit
of that so you've got your daughter haven't you
and obviously you've got lived experience as
well what is the benefit of talking to your child
about their diagnosis and and what kind of tips
would you have around navigating that conversation?
Yeah, great question. So I think the main things
are that their wellbeing and their mental health
are going to be better because Exactly as we've
said with my lived experience, you know, I thought
I was thick. I thought I was stupid. And I'm
lucky that I didn't have like terrible depression
or anxiety, but it wasn't great, you know. And
so certainly in terms of mental health and well
-being, it can really help a lot of neurodivergent
people have this strong feeling of, you know,
I'm not good enough. What's wrong with me? Why
aren't I? Why are my peers able to do this? And
I'm not. Why is it so easy for them? And so it's
certainly. massive in terms of that and just
other things is like maybe finding your tribe
finding people like -minded people with similar
interests who have similar lived experiences
you know and especially we know a lot of neurodivergent
young people and people maybe either need some
help or support with friendships and social situations
so i think finding other people like you, whether
it's Minecraft or Lego or, you know, whatever
it is. And just having that lived experience,
like I'll never forget my daughter came home
and one of her best friends had been diagnosed
with ADHD. And she said, so -and -so told me
that, you know, they've been diagnosed. And I
said, all right, what do you think about that
then? Just having no idea what she was going
to say. And she said, it was great, isn't it?
We're twins, you know, we're the same. And so
she sort of welcomed her into the club. And imagine
that positive experience the other child has
had, being welcomed into the club by my daughter.
And fully understood. Yeah, as opposed to what
people are scared of, which is it's going to
be a stigma. It's going to be a negative experience,
which, of course, unfortunately, maybe in the
past was the case. But I think it's just such
an important thing to, yeah, to help children
understand themselves and who they are going
forward. And for the adults around them to understand
who they are and what supports them as well.
They can all read that report if the child is
willing, or at least a summary of the report.
To find out, yeah, what can support this child
from the experts that have seen and assessed
them and their whole profile to know, you know,
would they need movement breaks? Would they need
fidgets? Would they need a quiet area if there
is any exams? Would they need a note take or
anything? You know, that goes for any diagnosis,
not just ADHD. That goes for anything, for the
adults involved, teachers, parents, extended
family, to all be aware of the child's... and
abilities and everything in between so that they
can adapt the environment to suit them best.
100%, yeah. And I think my daughter, she's given
me permission to talk about her. She doesn't
mind. Okay, I was going to ask that. I didn't
want to ask too much because it's her story to
tell. I know it is, but yes, so I've got two
children. So Lily is eight and she's diagnosed
with ADHD and my little boy Elias, he's six.
He's neurotypical, far as we know. They're chalk
and cheese. He's super chilled. And Lily, yeah,
again, she's a great example of what you've just
said, I think, because she can be impulsive.
She can be disruptive, quote unquote, because
she does really struggle to not shout out, not
talk in class. And yeah, she struggles to sit
still. She needs to be busy all the time. She
struggles with unstructured time. I mean, I could
go on, but all these things obviously are challenging
in a classroom where there's 25 other children
in there. And I think she's definitely one of
those children who, back in the day when I was
at school, would have been probably in the corridor.
She'd have been thrown out. But now they understand
her needs because we went down that route. We
were very lucky. A teacher actually, funnily
enough, picked up on it when she was six, so
two years ago now, so quite young. And because
we... went down that path and everything. I'm
pleased we did because it's not always easy,
of course, but she knows herself. She can advocate
for herself. That's another thing about somebody
understanding themselves that's so important.
And she's got the support she needs in place
now. And like you say, the adults around her,
they know she's not. doing these things maliciously
she's not doing them on purpose she's a kind
lovely person but she just gets a bit you know
overstimulated or understimulated or she's looking
her brain's looking for dopamine her brain is
wired differently it's not a choice in this it
is it is it looks physically different there
is a physical difference and a chemical difference
in somebody with ADHD or somebody with autism
in comparison to somebody without it is uncontrollable
It's quite an unfair comparison, isn't it really?
Yeah. And I can see it in my children because
I look at Elias, like I say, he's neurotypical.
Obviously, he's a six -year -old boy, so now
and then he's like a bit hyper. Generally speaking,
he's really, really calm. And so if we were to
compare the two of them, it's just completely
unfair because he's super calm, super chilled,
like rarely, I can count the amount of meltdowns
he's had on one hand. You know, I mean, I'm touching
wood as I'm saying these words, obviously, but
he's just not like that. He can entertain himself.
He's very self -directed. He'll just take himself
off, start doing his drawing. Lily is not like
that. Because the world around us is built for
people like him. So he... can feel settled in
his body and he can feel like everything makes
sense because everything is built around him
if the world was built for yeah your daughter
or you or me of the world then maybe your son
wouldn't cope so well exactly 100 so that's kind
of the point isn't it it's not it's it's only
disabling because of the environment around us
and i think that's why labels and diagnosis is
so important because it enables the adults around
us to create an environment in which these children
and adults can thrive exactly right exactly right
not change them no that's not what we're saying
i'll give you one example as we went for a family
lunch recently uh with you know grandpa my dad
and and family members and it was quite a long
lunch because there was some uh people are not
so mobile so they couldn't walk too much and
but it was fine because elias sat at the table
he did his coloring he played his games he chatted
he did whatever he sat at that table the entire
time i mean it was probably a three hour we were
there but it was fine because lily got up she
walked around i'd brought activities for her
she came to sit on my knee and get some physical
contact she went we let her go outside and we
let her wander around basically in a safe way
obviously and not getting in other people's ways
but um let her just she just had movement breaks
whenever she needed whenever she was getting
a bit hyper i might say oh shall i come with
you for a minute and we'll do this or do you
want to make me a bracelet should we bring her
loom bands everywhere we go so exactly as you
say about not trying to mold her and make her
sit still and be quiet but it was about changing
the environment and the supports and our understanding
and nobody battered an eyelid because they know
her really well by now and also you managed that
situation really well how do you have been different
in that situation and had different expectations
of her it could have looked very different and
felt very different for her which before her
diagnosis i might have done I'll be honest. I
look back and there's things I regret doing because
I was trying to, I now realize. Well, you had
different unfair expectations of her, but you
had realistic expectations of someone that you
thought was neurotypical, I suppose. Exactly.
But again, so important to know, isn't it? Because
knowledge is power. Yeah, to make those reasonable
adjustments. Exactly. And you probably did do
it before naturally just because she's your child
and you did do, would just naturally like. molding
to do things in a certain way doing things in
a certain way naturally but gosh having that
actual concrete answer and reason just helps
you her knowing what i'm also really passionate
about is not just children understanding their
neurodiversity but her knowing what works for
her so For example, I teach parents these types
of strategies, but what I realized is they're
not passing them on to their child. And for me,
that's the next step, but that's almost the most
important step. So what I do with Lily is I'm
not just saying, let's go for a movement break.
I'm saying. Or is your brain feeling a bit fizzy?
You're a bit amber fizzy, aren't you? Like, what
do you think? Shall we go and get some dopamine?
Your brain, maybe it's a bit low on dopamine.
We need to have a movement break to help you
feel better. She'll be like, oh yeah, definitely.
And then after, she'll be like, are you feeling
better now? And she'll be like, yeah. So again,
this transparency and this openness, I feel is
helping her. Because then when I'm not there,
I'm not always going to be there. When she's
out with her mates or she's at the soft play
and I'm not there every second of the day, because
she's already eight, we all know it goes so quickly.
when she's at school or when she's at day camp
or wherever else she's going to be she can advocate
for herself she can say oh miss I think I need
a bit of a movement break now can I go you're
giving her that language aren't you and those
tools to be able to manage her needs so that
yeah as she grows up you want her to be as empowered
and independent as possible to be able to advocate
for herself and and meet her needs safely appropriately
whatever that means you know adapt her environment
so that she can instead of maybe how undiagnosed
people have in the past where we know that there's
a lot of like there's higher like addiction rates
you know and there's alcohol and drug abuse vulnerable
in relationship yes exactly especially for girls
it's such a worry people please inform kind of
behavior that need exactly love attention connection
can be very be abused they're very vulnerable
to that and that's something that i think is
quite common when females with neurodivergence
is that is almost innocence and easily manipulated
vulnerability as far as sexual relationships
and sexual relationships as well. So friendship
relationships and partners as well. Incredibly
vulnerable because of that masking, want to please,
want to fit in, want for connection, but also
not really understanding that it can be incredibly
easily manipulated. 100%. and not realising why.
And a great example recently of her advocating
for herself was she goes to this day camp and
we'd never really told them just purely because
it hadn't really come up and it wasn't like a
conscious decision. But then she said to me,
oh, could you let them know about my diagnosis?
And I said, oh, yeah, no problem. Why is that?
And she said, well, I just feel that they might
understand me a bit better. So I said, yeah,
no problem. So I let them know. They were like,
great, no problem. We'll tell everyone discreetly,
obviously. in a discreet way and then she came
home like the next day and said oh thanks for
telling them that was great because um when we
were doing I can't remember what sport they were
doing you know a sport um I just was feeling
a bit overwhelmed and needed a little bit of
a break and they let me have a bit of a break
whereas before they were sort of a bit more pushy
and kind of not making me do it but you know
a bit more less uh open to me having a bit of
a break and so I thought Amazing. This is it.
Because I've modeled that for her and we've been
so open and transparent about it. She's advocating
for herself. And like you say, hopefully she's
already advocating for herself now in that situation.
She'd be more likely to do that later on when
she's feeling vulnerable. And understand those
things. And if you've got that open communication
with her and she's got that open communication
with friends that have a similar diagnosis, she's
got people to question like, this happened. Is
this okay? Or I was feeling like this. How was
that? And she can question that as well. She's
open to... that with safe people that she knows
that she can get realistic and understanding
guidance from which is also setting her up to
succeed and understand the world and understand
herself and keep herself safe in that moment
which is also a reason for diagnosis and labels
100 do you have if somebody's listening to this
and thinking yep yep yep this is my child or
yes yes this is me is there any like reading
or other research they could do or where where
do they turn to kind of find out more about this
or to kind of support themselves? Yeah. Well,
first of all, I'd say come and find me and come
and find Sunflower Autism Consultancy. I've got
a big Facebook group. I'm on Instagram as well.
And I share a lot of information about this kind
of stuff on there. Not only that, but I do a
lot of either free or low cost group workshops
online via Zoom to help as many people as I can
on various different topics, autism, PDA, ADHD.
understanding neurodiversity, talking to your
child about it, all these things we've covered.
And feel free to get in touch with me as well,
because like I said, I do support families one
-to -one. The other thing I'd say is, yeah, you
know, knowledge is power. The great thing is
there's a lot of great books out there now. I'm
just looking in my little shelves here. So this
one's Neurodiversity, What's That? And you can
just get this on Amazon. And this is a great
one if you're kind of starting out and maybe...
You're on a waiting list, as lots of people are,
and so you're not quite 100 % sure what the diagnosis
is going to be, but you're pretty sure they're
neurodivergent. I think the word neurodivergent
is quite a good term to start with, to kind of
maybe have that drip feed approach and just start
having those casual, discreet conversations.
Some children are really not as open to it as
others. Usually children who have more of a PDA
profile are quite discreet, private people. So
in which case, maybe just leave a book like around
and they can look at it on their own terms when
they feel they've got autonomy over it. Or, you
know, suggest a video. There's some great videos
on YouTube. Again, they're shared in my Facebook
group somewhere, if you searched in that group.
And the great thing is there's a lot more sort
of resources out there now, isn't there? ADHD
Foundation, I don't know if you've ever shared
that. It's really good for ADHD and PGA Society,
UK for PGA. There's people out there if you need
support and you're not alone, for sure. Sounds
amazing. So definitely go and follow Sunflower
Autism and Julia over on Instagram and then sunflowerautismconsultancy
.co .uk is her website and she'll have all the
things on there. Thank you so much for joining
me, Julia, and talking so openly and honestly
about your lived experience. And I know it's
going to support people out there. So thank you.
thank you so much for having me