WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.700 Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education 00:00:02.700 --> 00:00:06.160 teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:09.119 communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson 00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:11.660 ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged 00:00:11.660 --> 00:00:15.300 4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in 00:00:15.300 --> 00:00:17.640 the field answering your questions and sharing 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:19.559 our knowledge and experience working alongside 00:00:19.559 --> 00:00:22.539 our beautiful young people. Let's get started. 00:00:27.500 --> 00:00:30.359 Hello everybody and welcome back to the Sensory 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:33.020 Classroom podcast. Today I'm joined by Natalia, 00:00:33.140 --> 00:00:36.920 speech esteem on social media. Hello Natalia. 00:00:37.399 --> 00:00:40.679 Hello. So you're a speech and language therapist 00:00:40.679 --> 00:00:42.979 based in London, is that right? That's right, 00:00:43.119 --> 00:00:46.460 yes. And you work with autistic children, working 00:00:46.460 --> 00:00:50.759 with AEAC, guest -op language processing, minimally 00:00:50.759 --> 00:00:52.939 speaking children, non -speaking, that kind of 00:00:52.939 --> 00:00:56.179 thing? All of that. And sometimes I also work 00:00:56.179 --> 00:00:58.939 with children who have developmental language 00:00:58.939 --> 00:01:02.259 disorder, children who are selectively mute. 00:01:02.500 --> 00:01:05.579 And yes, like you said, predominantly autistic 00:01:05.579 --> 00:01:08.640 children who are non -speaking, but also autistic 00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:11.980 children who are verbal and speak. Is select 00:01:11.980 --> 00:01:15.260 mutism sometimes linked with autism? Only because 00:01:15.260 --> 00:01:18.060 in my experience it has been. Yeah, it can be 00:01:18.060 --> 00:01:21.280 for sure. Yeah, there is really... quite a big 00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:24.879 link between selective mutism and autism. But 00:01:24.879 --> 00:01:27.700 also selective mutism is linked very strongly 00:01:27.700 --> 00:01:32.060 to social anxiety as well. And sometimes there 00:01:32.060 --> 00:01:35.040 is a really beneficial link between speech therapists 00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:39.709 and psychologists. And it can make a huge impact 00:01:39.709 --> 00:01:42.329 on a child's life when that kind of little MDT 00:01:42.329 --> 00:01:45.650 is formed around a child who's selectively mute. 00:01:45.890 --> 00:01:47.909 I've seen that, actually. I've seen that with 00:01:47.909 --> 00:01:50.890 my very anxious learners. They build a really 00:01:50.890 --> 00:01:52.989 strong bond with the speech and language therapists 00:01:52.989 --> 00:01:56.530 more than anyone else. And I feel like however 00:01:56.530 --> 00:01:59.609 much we try to build that connection, I feel 00:01:59.609 --> 00:02:02.189 like speech and language therapists are so great 00:02:02.189 --> 00:02:06.170 and trained at building connections, listening. 00:02:06.909 --> 00:02:10.889 hearing what's being said or communicated and 00:02:10.889 --> 00:02:13.990 really boosting that their self -esteem and building 00:02:13.990 --> 00:02:15.810 that strong relationship that way is it's a really 00:02:15.810 --> 00:02:18.509 wonderful thing to witness as a teacher is these 00:02:18.509 --> 00:02:20.569 really strong bonds with therapists that visit 00:02:20.569 --> 00:02:23.610 my room with some students that on the outset 00:02:23.610 --> 00:02:26.389 seem quite hard to reach but speech therapists 00:02:26.389 --> 00:02:30.050 seem to do it. You said it so beautifully and 00:02:30.050 --> 00:02:33.639 I think It's nice to hear because sometimes when 00:02:33.639 --> 00:02:37.379 I'm in the classroom, I do work on that connection 00:02:37.379 --> 00:02:40.500 and the relationship, but I don't realise that 00:02:40.500 --> 00:02:44.539 other people are watching. So that's so nice 00:02:44.539 --> 00:02:47.000 to hear. I suppose if you're not based in a school, 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:49.919 it's hard to see what they're like without you 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:53.319 there. Yeah, yeah. I remember with a pupil, I 00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:55.719 think I worked with them about 10 years ago, 00:02:55.780 --> 00:02:58.960 but it just springs to mind. was very hesitant 00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:00.979 to be in the classroom. It was beautiful, beautiful. 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:03.280 But she found the classroom really, really overwhelming 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:06.099 and found transitions very difficult. A very 00:03:06.099 --> 00:03:08.539 anxious desktop language processor. I know now, 00:03:08.740 --> 00:03:11.319 but I didn't know that then. I knew he was autistic. 00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:16.419 Gorgeous boy. And the only time I saw his eyes 00:03:16.419 --> 00:03:20.979 light up, like physically and emotionally just 00:03:20.979 --> 00:03:24.500 lit up. was when he was doing and working with 00:03:24.500 --> 00:03:27.199 the speech and language therapist. And it showed 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:30.240 me that it was possible that we could make him 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:32.379 feel comfortable in the space and that he would 00:03:32.379 --> 00:03:35.620 come into the space and he would engage and join. 00:03:35.699 --> 00:03:38.379 And we could see what he was capable of because 00:03:38.379 --> 00:03:41.360 he built such a trusting connection. And ultimately 00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:44.639 it came down to she'd never let him down. She'd 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:48.139 never broken a promise. She'd never falsely said 00:03:48.139 --> 00:03:50.659 anything or pushed him to do anything that he... 00:03:50.889 --> 00:03:53.789 wasn't comfortable to do. And she listened to 00:03:53.789 --> 00:03:57.110 him and was his advocate and his voice. And ultimately, 00:03:57.270 --> 00:04:00.370 it was just so beautiful. And it taught everyone 00:04:00.370 --> 00:04:04.409 else to step up, basically, and to do it differently, 00:04:04.669 --> 00:04:07.610 to do it in a neuro firming way, which 10 years 00:04:07.610 --> 00:04:09.550 ago, I didn't have that language. I didn't know 00:04:09.550 --> 00:04:12.860 that I was still very much learning. but yeah 00:04:12.860 --> 00:04:16.480 speech and language therapists are angels because 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:19.319 of that I love working I've learned so much from 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:21.899 working with speech and language therapists I 00:04:21.899 --> 00:04:25.360 love how you put it and I feel like it's so important 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:28.480 to create that safe relationship like emotionally 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:31.480 safe connection with a child before you get any 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:33.860 communication out of them and before you even 00:04:33.860 --> 00:04:37.879 try to tap into communication opportunities with 00:04:37.879 --> 00:04:40.480 them because if you don't really have that connection 00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:43.500 if the child doesn't feel emotionally safe with 00:04:43.500 --> 00:04:48.060 you, it's unlikely they'll feel comfortable sharing 00:04:48.060 --> 00:04:50.899 who they truly are. So that's such a big thing. 00:04:51.060 --> 00:04:53.220 Sounds like an amazing speech therapist that 00:04:53.220 --> 00:04:54.939 you're working with. Yeah, I mean, they are all 00:04:54.939 --> 00:04:56.779 amazing. Every speech and language therapist 00:04:56.779 --> 00:04:58.980 I've worked with has been fabulous. I've learned 00:04:58.980 --> 00:05:01.019 so much from them. So how would you build that 00:05:01.019 --> 00:05:02.660 connection then? What would that look like in 00:05:02.660 --> 00:05:05.709 practice? You've met a child. For the first time, 00:05:05.730 --> 00:05:07.689 do you often work in schools or do you work in 00:05:07.689 --> 00:05:12.069 a clinic? So I worked in clinics, but now predominantly 00:05:12.069 --> 00:05:16.170 I work in schools, but I also visit families 00:05:16.170 --> 00:05:19.329 and I visit children at home. So I'm kind of 00:05:19.329 --> 00:05:23.029 dipping my toes into all settings. That's wonderful. 00:05:23.209 --> 00:05:25.889 You get a good mixture. Imagine you're seeing 00:05:25.889 --> 00:05:28.970 a child for the first time. How do you establish 00:05:28.970 --> 00:05:31.509 that initial connection? What kind of things 00:05:31.509 --> 00:05:34.839 are you doing, saying, thinking about? in order 00:05:34.839 --> 00:05:40.000 to start that positively? Yeah, the really first 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:42.879 thing that might be a little bit surprising is 00:05:42.879 --> 00:05:46.680 that I don't say anything at first, at least 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:49.779 the first 10 to 15 minutes of interaction with 00:05:49.779 --> 00:05:52.699 a child. Because I just want to see who they 00:05:52.699 --> 00:05:56.740 are, what they are interested in. You know, are 00:05:56.740 --> 00:05:59.959 they interested in me or not really? So really 00:05:59.959 --> 00:06:03.800 kind of realizing that silence is okay at first. 00:06:03.899 --> 00:06:07.819 And there is no pressure really to talk or really 00:06:07.819 --> 00:06:10.740 to communicate. with me at first. And it might 00:06:10.740 --> 00:06:13.180 look a little bit weird. It's like, you know, 00:06:13.180 --> 00:06:14.980 we're expecting the speech therapist to come 00:06:14.980 --> 00:06:17.379 in and really get started. And I'm there just 00:06:17.379 --> 00:06:21.120 like joining in their play very gently or just 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:24.079 being on the periphery. And I found that oftentimes 00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:27.860 it works the best when I'm this person who doesn't 00:06:27.860 --> 00:06:31.079 come in with an agenda, a person who comes in 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:33.300 with genuine interest in whatever they're doing 00:06:33.300 --> 00:06:37.040 already and not trying to take their attention 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:42.240 away from that thing. And I find this first step 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:46.620 is the best one. And it really helps me to start 00:06:46.620 --> 00:06:48.959 creating that connection. It's not the sole thing 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:52.019 that makes us feel connected, but it's kind of 00:06:52.019 --> 00:06:55.220 like opening the door a little bit and not kicking 00:06:55.220 --> 00:06:59.079 them out. Yeah, and scaring them off with demands 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:02.680 that maybe they can't. achieve maybe exactly 00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:07.100 yeah and I find that so important and I learned 00:07:07.100 --> 00:07:09.740 that through a couple of years of practicing 00:07:09.740 --> 00:07:13.060 because at first I was really excited and really 00:07:13.060 --> 00:07:15.540 the speech therapist who came in like what are 00:07:15.540 --> 00:07:19.759 you doing and wow can I do that as well but soon 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:22.620 i realized that's actually scaring the children 00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:26.439 my enthusiasm so i learned over the years that 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:29.600 actually silence is best at first so that the 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:32.850 child feels that they are safe this person this 00:07:32.850 --> 00:07:35.810 stranger really realizing about myself that actually 00:07:35.810 --> 00:07:38.250 i'm a stranger to them at first and becoming 00:07:38.250 --> 00:07:42.310 that safe adult in the space that over time they 00:07:42.310 --> 00:07:44.589 will start trusting because they will realize 00:07:44.589 --> 00:07:47.069 like you said before that um all of the things 00:07:47.069 --> 00:07:49.629 that i'm doing are consistent and are not really 00:07:49.629 --> 00:07:52.910 threatening their inner emotional safety so that's 00:07:52.910 --> 00:07:54.910 kind of the first thing that i really think about 00:07:54.910 --> 00:07:57.470 and really kind of accepting their presence and 00:07:57.470 --> 00:08:00.079 their interest And following that. And I find 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:02.139 that they teach me so much more than I would 00:08:02.139 --> 00:08:04.879 ever teach them through that strategy. I loved 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:07.360 it when you said genuine interest. And I think 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:11.560 it's really easy to seem interested in it. A 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:15.040 car rolling, the wheels turning, you know. But 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:18.339 to have genuine interest in it and see what it's 00:08:18.339 --> 00:08:21.389 a joy that they are getting out of that. makes 00:08:21.389 --> 00:08:25.230 such a difference they can feel it you can feel 00:08:25.230 --> 00:08:27.829 it that is what connection is isn't it it's not 00:08:27.829 --> 00:08:31.290 falsehood it's genuine interest in it whether 00:08:31.290 --> 00:08:33.649 it's interested in ocean animals or interested 00:08:33.649 --> 00:08:36.690 in spinning or interested in i've got a child 00:08:36.690 --> 00:08:38.830 in my class that's fingers and we're really interested 00:08:38.830 --> 00:08:41.769 what is it is it the fingers moving is it you 00:08:41.769 --> 00:08:43.429 know the physicality of it is it that they're 00:08:43.429 --> 00:08:45.470 seeing colors through the fingers is it counting 00:08:45.470 --> 00:08:48.049 is it songs in his head you're really interested 00:08:48.049 --> 00:08:52.019 so that we can also be genuinely interested and 00:08:52.019 --> 00:08:55.139 drawing his joy in that. I feel like being genuine 00:08:55.139 --> 00:08:58.340 is the biggest part of being affirming and building 00:08:58.340 --> 00:09:01.480 that connection, isn't it? I agree. And I love 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:04.399 how you said that. It's all that goes in my mind. 00:09:04.539 --> 00:09:07.500 Exactly that. Like, why? Why is it interesting? 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:11.200 And can I be interested in that in a genuine 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:13.940 way? And really investigating a little bit, being 00:09:13.940 --> 00:09:15.820 a little detective as well in the background 00:09:15.820 --> 00:09:19.919 whilst being silent and observing. yeah so you 00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:22.059 physically you are silent and probably quite 00:09:22.059 --> 00:09:25.879 still initially um to not scare them off but 00:09:25.879 --> 00:09:29.600 your head's probably working tenfold trying to 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:33.500 work it all out it's so true and i love how you 00:09:33.500 --> 00:09:36.480 mentioned that you know staying a bit still because 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:39.320 I don't try to move my body too abruptly in the 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:42.220 beginning just to see what their sensory regulation 00:09:42.220 --> 00:09:45.259 is like and really not to scare them off as well, 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:48.500 but also not to trigger any past traumas or anything 00:09:48.500 --> 00:09:51.320 like that. And I think that's also a big part 00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:53.879 of making them feel safe because a lot of the 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:56.960 time for children, we are these big humans with 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:00.250 big bodies and they are so tiny. And it can feel 00:10:00.250 --> 00:10:04.470 so condescending almost that we are so big and 00:10:04.470 --> 00:10:07.110 so above them. So really sitting down on the 00:10:07.110 --> 00:10:11.070 floor, a bit further away from them, being at 00:10:11.070 --> 00:10:14.629 eye level or below, never above. So those are 00:10:14.629 --> 00:10:17.570 the little things that over time I kind of gotten 00:10:17.570 --> 00:10:21.250 used to doing. But I don't realize that there 00:10:21.250 --> 00:10:24.190 are little steps towards the connection. So it 00:10:24.190 --> 00:10:26.149 made me realize right now. I think that's helpful 00:10:26.149 --> 00:10:28.450 for people to hear, though. We've got mainstream 00:10:28.450 --> 00:10:31.110 teachers, new teachers, parents, siblings listening 00:10:31.110 --> 00:10:33.190 to this podcast. I think this is the advice that 00:10:33.190 --> 00:10:36.009 people really need to hear is those, yeah, things 00:10:36.009 --> 00:10:37.809 that maybe you do naturally that you've learned 00:10:37.809 --> 00:10:41.110 over years to make yourself small, to be quite 00:10:41.110 --> 00:10:44.470 submissive in a way so that they can lead and 00:10:44.470 --> 00:10:47.139 feel in control of. the interaction i think is 00:10:47.139 --> 00:10:50.220 fantastic advice because we could have the best 00:10:50.220 --> 00:10:53.539 resources the best toys the best you know all 00:10:53.539 --> 00:10:56.399 of these strategies but if they're feeling out 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:59.159 of control or scared and not safe as you said 00:10:59.159 --> 00:11:02.379 nothing's gonna sit right it's not gonna feel 00:11:02.379 --> 00:11:04.679 neuroaffirming is it even if you're saying the 00:11:04.679 --> 00:11:07.159 right things and using the right strategies if 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:09.240 you're towering over them or even if you've got 00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:11.799 your arms crossed or you know you're very you're 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:14.940 very aware physically actually I feel when you're 00:11:14.940 --> 00:11:17.100 in these and especially the initial stages but 00:11:17.100 --> 00:11:19.820 actually in all interactions I feel very physically 00:11:19.820 --> 00:11:23.370 aware I used to be a dancer And I do wonder if 00:11:23.370 --> 00:11:25.730 that helps, actually. I've just realised that 00:11:25.730 --> 00:11:27.769 now. Because you're extra aware of where your 00:11:27.769 --> 00:11:30.330 body is in space and what your hands are doing 00:11:30.330 --> 00:11:32.509 and what your posture is. And I feel like it's 00:11:32.509 --> 00:11:34.350 almost like a dance, isn't it? Especially if 00:11:34.350 --> 00:11:36.289 we're talking about that initial interaction, 00:11:36.450 --> 00:11:38.870 that kind of intensive interaction way. It kind 00:11:38.870 --> 00:11:41.769 of is a to and fro conversation physically, isn't 00:11:41.769 --> 00:11:43.370 it? And if we're wanting them to feel in control 00:11:43.370 --> 00:11:46.149 and safe, well, then we need to be the smaller, 00:11:46.190 --> 00:11:50.210 quieter, stiller ones following their lead, don't 00:11:50.210 --> 00:11:54.220 we? Yeah, absolutely. And oftentimes I feel like 00:11:54.220 --> 00:11:58.120 when I'm like very still and calm person in their 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:01.159 presence, they start to be curious and they start 00:12:01.159 --> 00:12:03.620 to like looking into my direction, be like, who's 00:12:03.620 --> 00:12:07.200 this person? Why aren't they there? And there 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:09.940 we go. That's communication. And it just opens 00:12:09.940 --> 00:12:13.620 up without me doing anything. So it's just so 00:12:13.620 --> 00:12:17.399 magical to be a calm person and like near a small 00:12:17.399 --> 00:12:21.360 child. You might be the first adult that they've 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:24.460 ever had enter their space and not put a demand 00:12:24.460 --> 00:12:28.840 on them ever. That's going to set you up for 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:32.740 intrigue at minimum, isn't it? It's definitely 00:12:32.740 --> 00:12:35.980 going to help. It's not going to hinder that 00:12:35.980 --> 00:12:38.860 connection building process. Do you often have 00:12:38.860 --> 00:12:41.320 other adults in the room with you, like other 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:44.690 teachers or parents? yeah i was just about to 00:12:44.690 --> 00:12:47.450 say that i'm almost never alone with a child 00:12:47.450 --> 00:12:50.490 so there is always this in the back of my mind 00:12:50.490 --> 00:12:54.990 it's not just about what i do where i'm at in 00:12:54.990 --> 00:12:58.289 the room but it's a lot about the environment 00:12:58.289 --> 00:13:01.990 as well and how safe is the environment in terms 00:13:01.990 --> 00:13:06.460 of sensory stimuli in terms of you know are we 00:13:06.460 --> 00:13:09.519 all emotionally regulated in the space are there 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:12.740 other children there and are they emotionally 00:13:12.740 --> 00:13:16.059 regulated what are their sensory needs it's a 00:13:16.059 --> 00:13:18.740 huge dynamic process of trying to figure it all 00:13:18.740 --> 00:13:21.899 out try and manage that or are you just managing 00:13:21.899 --> 00:13:24.419 yourself Do you try and move things out of the 00:13:24.419 --> 00:13:26.000 way? Do you try and turn off the lights? Do you 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:29.259 try and hush adults down? How actively are you 00:13:29.259 --> 00:13:31.500 managing everybody else in the space? I know 00:13:31.500 --> 00:13:32.840 you're not trying to control the child you're 00:13:32.840 --> 00:13:36.879 working with, but is there some scope to control 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:39.580 everything else? Or are you just focusing on 00:13:39.580 --> 00:13:42.919 yourself and you just being the safe space? I 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:45.620 think it depends on the type of team that I'm 00:13:45.620 --> 00:13:48.720 working with. But most of the time, yes, there 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:52.059 are discussions around what does an environment 00:13:52.059 --> 00:13:55.480 that's communication friendly look like and what 00:13:55.480 --> 00:13:59.440 can we do to make it a safe space at all times, 00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:02.860 not just when, you know. I try to create a new 00:14:02.860 --> 00:14:05.600 connection with the child. So definitely there 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:07.779 is a lot of conversations happening. I wouldn't 00:14:07.779 --> 00:14:10.200 say that they are happening at the moment when 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:12.720 I'm doing a session with the child, but they 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:15.259 are happening before and after, whether that's 00:14:15.259 --> 00:14:18.740 through informal chats or through training or 00:14:18.740 --> 00:14:21.679 through some modeling and coaching. There is 00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:24.779 always the ongoing discussion about how an environment 00:14:24.779 --> 00:14:27.980 that's affirming looks like. And through those 00:14:27.980 --> 00:14:30.220 discussions that are ongoing, it then... And 00:14:30.220 --> 00:14:33.480 makes whatever sessions start in the classroom 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:38.480 much easier and more easier, really, to be said. 00:14:38.779 --> 00:14:40.279 Yeah, I suppose because you all have the same 00:14:40.279 --> 00:14:42.580 expectation, don't you? They might be panicking, 00:14:42.580 --> 00:14:45.320 but nothing's happening, maybe. And actually, 00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:47.539 you're quite happy. So I suppose to come in with 00:14:47.539 --> 00:14:50.240 all the same expectation is helpful for everyone 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:53.720 to know what success looks like is helpful. Absolutely. 00:14:54.340 --> 00:14:57.529 So these conversations definitely happen. they 00:14:57.529 --> 00:15:00.429 do but i'm not not in that session so when i'm 00:15:00.429 --> 00:15:02.769 actually this quiet person that just entering 00:15:02.769 --> 00:15:05.710 gently entering a child's space i wouldn't necessarily 00:15:05.710 --> 00:15:08.250 start talking to an adult near me because i'd 00:15:08.250 --> 00:15:10.409 hope that we had the chance to have that discussion 00:15:10.409 --> 00:15:13.350 beforehand but if not we can talk about it later 00:15:13.350 --> 00:15:15.830 you know there's no problem in that or if the 00:15:15.830 --> 00:15:18.230 adult feels motivated to join you know i would 00:15:18.230 --> 00:15:21.889 let them to join um and maybe gently guide them 00:15:21.889 --> 00:15:24.690 but um not necessarily have a discussion with 00:15:24.690 --> 00:15:28.940 them about what we are doing yeah so if there's 00:15:28.940 --> 00:15:30.980 lots of supporting adults listening to this so 00:15:30.980 --> 00:15:33.100 what are some things that they could be doing 00:15:33.100 --> 00:15:36.580 to enable a safe space for when a child is working 00:15:36.580 --> 00:15:38.679 with a therapist or a teacher maybe maybe they're 00:15:38.679 --> 00:15:40.820 not the lead adult we've heard about what that 00:15:40.820 --> 00:15:42.940 can look like what about the supporting adults 00:15:42.940 --> 00:15:44.840 in the room what could they be doing to better 00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:47.620 enable this safe space that you're creating yeah 00:15:47.620 --> 00:15:51.139 so we do something called a learning walk together 00:15:51.139 --> 00:15:55.620 um oftentimes and it kind of goes through a lot 00:15:55.620 --> 00:15:59.379 of interesting concepts about how a classroom 00:15:59.379 --> 00:16:02.320 and supporting adults should really look like 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:05.919 and how it looks like. And I think the main thing 00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:10.379 is about their understanding of how to connect 00:16:10.379 --> 00:16:13.200 with a child in terms of, you know, understanding 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:16.159 what I'm doing and then if they want to join. 00:16:16.620 --> 00:16:19.480 joining in with the same strategies and if they 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:22.799 don't have the capacity to join promoting the 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:27.440 calmer space around in the classroom so for example 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:31.419 if there is a dysregulated child you know responding 00:16:31.419 --> 00:16:36.639 to that and oops responding to that and you know 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:39.360 being with that dysregulated child so that the 00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:41.179 child that I'm trying to work with doesn't get 00:16:41.179 --> 00:16:44.179 dysregulated if they're maybe sensitive to loud 00:16:44.179 --> 00:16:48.370 noises really I think the key is being emotionally 00:16:48.370 --> 00:16:54.269 available um and really just noticing how children 00:16:54.269 --> 00:16:57.769 feel across the day and monitoring it and responding 00:16:57.769 --> 00:17:00.289 to it and i think that's the biggest help really 00:17:00.289 --> 00:17:03.269 yeah that's so true and i feel like that is a 00:17:03.269 --> 00:17:05.769 big part of our job in school and parents as 00:17:05.769 --> 00:17:09.009 well is constantly you say oh i'm exhausted from 00:17:09.009 --> 00:17:10.190 today i thought we haven't actually done anything 00:17:10.190 --> 00:17:12.349 but what you're doing is constantly measuring 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:16.420 emotional regulation and constantly risk assessment 00:17:16.420 --> 00:17:20.099 risk assessing and even if nothing awful is happening 00:17:20.099 --> 00:17:23.299 everything's safe you're always thinking of every 00:17:23.299 --> 00:17:25.420 eventuality but this could happen and then this 00:17:25.420 --> 00:17:27.180 and this and this and this and this if that door 00:17:27.180 --> 00:17:28.799 opens then this might happen and then i'll do 00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:31.539 this so you've done your day a hundred times 00:17:31.539 --> 00:17:35.079 over in in every eventuality constantly to try 00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:38.460 and keep this safe and calm environment and i 00:17:38.460 --> 00:17:42.400 feel like it's a big part of being available 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:46.160 and working with these sensory learners, I suppose, 00:17:46.339 --> 00:17:50.019 is that trying to keep that regulation and calm 00:17:50.019 --> 00:17:54.380 throughout the day means that we are trying to 00:17:54.380 --> 00:17:58.609 read every situation. Yeah, what worked really 00:17:58.609 --> 00:18:01.869 well previously was splitting the classroom into 00:18:01.869 --> 00:18:05.750 zones, like a calming zone or interaction zone, 00:18:06.190 --> 00:18:11.049 exciting zone, movement zone, emotion zone, regulation 00:18:11.049 --> 00:18:14.569 zone. And each zone has like different sensory 00:18:14.569 --> 00:18:17.809 tools available. In each zone, there is an adult 00:18:17.809 --> 00:18:21.369 always present in that area. And over time, you 00:18:21.369 --> 00:18:24.279 start realizing... um that you're learning a 00:18:24.279 --> 00:18:26.660 lot about the profiles of the children in the 00:18:26.660 --> 00:18:29.680 classroom because for example maybe the active 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:32.819 zone might be flooded with children and the calming 00:18:32.819 --> 00:18:36.019 zone is not because everybody is a sensory seeker 00:18:36.019 --> 00:18:38.200 and that tells you a lot about your classroom 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:40.200 and it also tells you a lot about what kind of 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:42.960 strategies we can start working on next yeah 00:18:43.589 --> 00:18:46.549 And what motivates them? We could use that, couldn't 00:18:46.549 --> 00:18:49.470 we, as a way in to build connection. If they're 00:18:49.470 --> 00:18:52.349 seeking, jumping, running, wrestling, climbing, 00:18:52.450 --> 00:18:54.470 all of those kind of things, great, let's get 00:18:54.470 --> 00:18:56.089 them outside. Let's do some of that together. 00:18:56.210 --> 00:18:58.609 If they're seeking calming, they're liking ear 00:18:58.609 --> 00:19:01.369 defenders, weighted blankets and being swaddled 00:19:01.369 --> 00:19:04.670 maybe, then maybe we can facilitate that. That's 00:19:04.670 --> 00:19:06.950 also a great start to building that connection, 00:19:07.190 --> 00:19:10.079 isn't it? Yeah, I love that. And, you know, I 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:12.660 think a lot about special interests as well. 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:15.299 And like having little dips of special interests 00:19:15.299 --> 00:19:18.380 across the classroom and teaching assistants, 00:19:18.619 --> 00:19:22.880 I feel like they often know more than I do about 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:25.339 the special interests of the children in the 00:19:25.339 --> 00:19:27.740 classroom because, you know, they work with them 00:19:27.740 --> 00:19:30.900 every single day. They're such a good source 00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:33.759 of information for this. And they then know, 00:19:33.940 --> 00:19:36.660 oh, yes, this person, this child likes this. 00:19:37.230 --> 00:19:39.089 So putting it in the space and actually having 00:19:39.089 --> 00:19:41.690 it available, because if they gravitate towards 00:19:41.690 --> 00:19:44.410 that, you can create communication opportunities 00:19:44.410 --> 00:19:47.730 through. that type of interaction so that's also 00:19:47.730 --> 00:19:49.950 a really good thing to do yeah so it's a great 00:19:49.950 --> 00:19:52.009 way of utilizing the team around the child really 00:19:52.009 --> 00:19:53.930 isn't it whether it's a parent or a sporting 00:19:53.930 --> 00:19:56.369 adult it's asking them ahead of time like you 00:19:56.369 --> 00:19:58.950 said when we're giving the training also asking 00:19:58.950 --> 00:20:00.670 them about their expertise ultimately they're 00:20:00.670 --> 00:20:02.190 the expert in the child aren't they they're the 00:20:02.190 --> 00:20:05.390 ones that spend the most time with them day day 00:20:05.390 --> 00:20:08.329 in day out so they know you know what what is 00:20:08.329 --> 00:20:10.809 their what does heaven look like for them what 00:20:10.809 --> 00:20:13.869 is their ideal scenario what is their nightmare 00:20:13.869 --> 00:20:15.970 what are their true triggers yeah what are their 00:20:15.970 --> 00:20:18.849 special interests what could i bring and it would 00:20:18.849 --> 00:20:20.829 be irresistible to them they're all the kind 00:20:20.829 --> 00:20:23.910 of questions that i would be wanting to know 00:20:23.910 --> 00:20:26.309 because otherwise we could work it out ourselves 00:20:26.309 --> 00:20:29.109 but it might take us you know three four five 00:20:29.109 --> 00:20:32.099 weeks to establish that Whereas actually, if 00:20:32.099 --> 00:20:34.720 we know, we can kind of skip a few steps, can't 00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:37.740 we? A building connection. Exactly, 100%. I feel 00:20:37.740 --> 00:20:40.079 like special interests are such a beautiful way 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:42.599 to connect with a child, really. And it kind 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:45.299 of loops back to the genuine interest. Because 00:20:45.299 --> 00:20:48.799 if you really show interest in their special 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.319 interests, whether it's a non -speaking child 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:55.700 or a speaking child that communicates. through 00:20:55.700 --> 00:20:59.059 different means when you connect with them around 00:20:59.059 --> 00:21:00.920 their special interests and actually you know 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:03.180 the next time you come into school you start 00:21:03.180 --> 00:21:05.339 talking to them about it or you bring something 00:21:05.339 --> 00:21:08.039 that is of their interest you are nourishing 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:11.500 that relationship in a genuine way So I really 00:21:11.500 --> 00:21:14.539 like to learn about special interests of children 00:21:14.539 --> 00:21:16.740 I work with. Yeah, I think it's one of the best 00:21:16.740 --> 00:21:18.660 bits of the job. I've learned so much about Minecraft 00:21:18.660 --> 00:21:22.579 and animals and trains. You've become an expert. 00:21:22.819 --> 00:21:24.640 You've become an expert. And what a fantastic 00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:28.539 opportunity, you know. How lucky are we to be 00:21:28.539 --> 00:21:31.559 able to spend our days with experts in all these 00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:33.859 really interesting things, you know, once you 00:21:33.859 --> 00:21:37.079 get down to it. it is interesting they are all 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:39.539 interesting things and also things like fans 00:21:39.539 --> 00:21:43.220 or hoovers or you know whatever it is it can 00:21:43.220 --> 00:21:47.000 be or shiny material or dropping things and making 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:49.099 people laugh whatever it is throwing things whatever 00:21:49.099 --> 00:21:52.460 it is that is their thing it's gonna be there 00:21:52.460 --> 00:21:54.259 is something fun about it otherwise they wouldn't 00:21:54.259 --> 00:21:57.180 like it either so it's us just finding the joy 00:21:57.180 --> 00:22:00.140 in what they're finding the joy in isn't it and 00:22:00.140 --> 00:22:02.500 you know oftentimes it doesn't just have to be 00:22:03.019 --> 00:22:05.519 you know looking at something or doing something 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:07.880 of their special interest but it can also be 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:11.940 incorporating it into the curriculum and we don't 00:22:11.940 --> 00:22:16.039 need to do you know numbers we can do play -doh 00:22:16.039 --> 00:22:19.740 shapes in you know like numbers or we can just 00:22:19.740 --> 00:22:22.059 literally incorporate it into the curriculum 00:22:22.059 --> 00:22:24.799 and it doesn't have to be learning and then a 00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:27.519 special interest the special interest can actually 00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:29.759 be central of whatever we're trying to teach 00:22:30.509 --> 00:22:32.690 or whatever we're trying to do at home. Yeah, 00:22:32.690 --> 00:22:34.450 I think that's imperative, actually. I think 00:22:34.450 --> 00:22:36.769 it's, I mean, gosh, it is such a luxury of special 00:22:36.769 --> 00:22:39.410 education, isn't it? And that therapy practice 00:22:39.410 --> 00:22:42.869 that we have the capacity to do that. We don't 00:22:42.869 --> 00:22:45.190 have 34 children in a class and one adult, you 00:22:45.190 --> 00:22:48.710 know. we can facilitate that really bespoke and 00:22:48.710 --> 00:22:51.369 individualized sessions and sometimes some of 00:22:51.369 --> 00:22:53.529 the best sessions aren't planned for so yes you 00:22:53.529 --> 00:22:56.250 can plan for a session about around their special 00:22:56.250 --> 00:22:58.789 interests but sometimes things just happen and 00:22:58.789 --> 00:23:01.950 it's just us being open to that opportunity of 00:23:02.890 --> 00:23:05.150 Yeah, sometimes not forcing learning in there, 00:23:05.190 --> 00:23:07.569 but sometimes it just happens. And it's us grabbing 00:23:07.569 --> 00:23:10.190 those opportunities, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. 00:23:10.250 --> 00:23:12.910 It's not just grabbing them, but also actually 00:23:12.910 --> 00:23:16.069 realizing and noticing that they're there. Because 00:23:16.069 --> 00:23:18.829 I'm definitely, you know, guilty of this. Like 00:23:18.829 --> 00:23:21.829 when I started working, I just didn't notice 00:23:21.829 --> 00:23:24.109 children were communicating with me and they 00:23:24.109 --> 00:23:27.119 were trying to. tell me something like just for 00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:29.460 example I would bring bubbles and I would expect 00:23:29.460 --> 00:23:33.740 you know them to try to grab the bubbles or say 00:23:33.740 --> 00:23:37.000 they want more but actually them just glancing 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:39.819 at me or maybe moving a bit closer and then leaving 00:23:39.819 --> 00:23:43.119 really still communication realizing those subtle 00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:46.259 things that yes that is them trying to connect 00:23:46.259 --> 00:23:49.819 in their own way yeah and also if they move away 00:23:49.819 --> 00:23:53.109 or if they say no or push them away it's that's 00:23:53.109 --> 00:23:55.670 also communication that rejection that protest 00:23:55.670 --> 00:23:58.009 and rejection exactly it's something that I've 00:23:58.009 --> 00:24:03.049 only recently realized is really exciting that's 00:24:03.049 --> 00:24:05.789 still a connection that is still them coming 00:24:05.789 --> 00:24:08.309 to you and feeling safe enough to protest and 00:24:08.309 --> 00:24:11.950 and reject that that's it yeah yeah exactly what 00:24:11.950 --> 00:24:15.029 you said feeling safe to say no Natalia I'm not 00:24:15.029 --> 00:24:18.329 interested in you today goodbye Yeah. And that's 00:24:18.329 --> 00:24:20.869 amazing. Like, yes, our session ended because 00:24:20.869 --> 00:24:23.109 I'm going to respect their no and their boundaries 00:24:23.109 --> 00:24:26.609 and try to plant a seed about consent. But, you 00:24:26.609 --> 00:24:28.829 know, even though the session ended early, it's 00:24:28.829 --> 00:24:31.549 still a win for me because they said no. And 00:24:31.549 --> 00:24:36.269 that's huge. That is confidence. Yeah. And you 00:24:36.269 --> 00:24:38.710 respecting that and honoring that no is only 00:24:38.710 --> 00:24:40.849 going to help develop that relationship and that 00:24:40.849 --> 00:24:44.089 trust even stronger. Whereas if you ignore that 00:24:44.089 --> 00:24:46.470 and push through that, you're kind of losing. 00:24:46.569 --> 00:24:49.069 and breaking that trust in a way, aren't you? 00:24:49.349 --> 00:24:52.170 You've probably worked weeks to build. Yeah, 00:24:52.170 --> 00:24:55.509 yeah. And oftentimes the first few sessions might 00:24:55.509 --> 00:24:57.950 be, you know, rejections because they don't know 00:24:57.950 --> 00:25:00.470 me and that's okay. But if I'm, like you said, 00:25:00.549 --> 00:25:02.609 you know, honoring that no multiple times in 00:25:02.609 --> 00:25:04.529 a row, the next time I show up, they might be 00:25:04.529 --> 00:25:07.339 like... all right, well, if I say no, this person 00:25:07.339 --> 00:25:09.299 will leave. So why don't I just try a little 00:25:09.299 --> 00:25:12.460 bit to see what they'll do if I drop this thing 00:25:12.460 --> 00:25:14.880 on the floor, right? And it's that feeling safe 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:17.599 and starting to explore a bit more. So where 00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:21.000 do you find the boundaries in that? Because we 00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:24.200 can't allow everything. It would be, well, one, 00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:27.119 they like to know where the boundary is. That 00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:29.559 feels safe. Boundaries are safe. Structure is 00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:32.140 safe. Rules are safe. They keep us. We like to... 00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:34.920 predict them we like to know where we stand with 00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:38.500 all of that so how do you navigate that how can 00:25:38.500 --> 00:25:40.640 you make sure that the children are safe and 00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:42.539 they have clear boundaries in their predictable 00:25:42.539 --> 00:25:46.940 routine whilst also being neuroaffirming and 00:25:46.940 --> 00:25:50.579 being led by them how do you navigate that yeah 00:25:50.579 --> 00:25:54.160 so I think it really again starts with the team 00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:56.660 in terms of everybody being on the same page 00:25:56.660 --> 00:26:00.640 and agreeing what is the boundary Because inconsistent 00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:03.799 messages can sometimes be really tricky to navigate, 00:26:04.180 --> 00:26:08.160 especially for autistic children that are not 00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:12.309 yet speaking or non -speaking. or autistic children 00:26:12.309 --> 00:26:14.230 that communicate in different ways and prefer 00:26:14.230 --> 00:26:18.710 and consistency. So really being on the same 00:26:18.710 --> 00:26:21.829 page is the first step. So having a good conversation 00:26:21.829 --> 00:26:24.950 going on in the team about what the boundary 00:26:24.950 --> 00:26:28.170 is in each situation. So what is the boundary 00:26:28.170 --> 00:26:31.289 about if a child is throwing something onto another 00:26:31.289 --> 00:26:34.069 child or a person? What is the boundary about 00:26:34.069 --> 00:26:37.009 trying to go out of the classroom? When is it 00:26:37.009 --> 00:26:39.490 okay and when is it not okay? And things like 00:26:39.490 --> 00:26:42.650 that. that is very very clear then for me it's 00:26:42.650 --> 00:26:45.990 very easy and also for the teaching assistants 00:26:45.990 --> 00:26:48.869 and class teachers and all the other staff present 00:26:48.869 --> 00:26:52.210 it's quite easy to then follow up on those boundaries 00:26:52.210 --> 00:26:54.990 because we all know in the space that that is 00:26:54.990 --> 00:26:57.490 our boundary and the children over time learn 00:26:57.490 --> 00:27:00.390 it as well so you know obviously if it's throwing 00:27:00.390 --> 00:27:03.109 something at another child Depending on their 00:27:03.109 --> 00:27:06.529 communication level, we would communicate that 00:27:06.529 --> 00:27:09.410 boundary, whether it's with a visual, whether 00:27:09.410 --> 00:27:13.130 it's with verbal words, whether it's with, you 00:27:13.130 --> 00:27:16.890 know, talking to them through a story and just 00:27:16.890 --> 00:27:19.930 talking about safety in general, if they're able 00:27:19.930 --> 00:27:23.069 to talk about that and just, you know, benchmarking 00:27:23.069 --> 00:27:24.910 it, where are they at? What are they going to 00:27:24.910 --> 00:27:28.109 be able to kind of process? And really starting 00:27:28.109 --> 00:27:31.490 from that point and being consistent within force. 00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:34.180 the boundaries because sometimes it might be 00:27:34.180 --> 00:27:37.440 hard if it's a busy classroom but trying your 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:39.799 best it's never gonna be perfect but trying your 00:27:39.799 --> 00:27:42.759 best to really stick without that boundary and 00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:45.720 I think the same really applies to home environment 00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:48.920 and you can use a lot of strategies such like 00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:52.460 I said you know visual stories YouTube videos 00:27:52.460 --> 00:27:55.859 all of those type of things you can go into depth 00:27:55.859 --> 00:27:59.160 around boundaries so it's not just about the 00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:01.609 adults knowing it but it's also about the children 00:28:01.609 --> 00:28:05.349 and really scaffolding towards their understanding 00:28:05.349 --> 00:28:08.289 of communicating the boundaries. To make it appropriate 00:28:08.289 --> 00:28:12.119 for wherever they're at. If they're working developmentally 00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:14.440 at six months, it's going to look very different 00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:16.420 than if they're working developmentally at six 00:28:16.420 --> 00:28:20.079 or seven age stage, isn't it? Yes, yeah. So for 00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:23.019 an example, if, you know, developmentally they're 00:28:23.019 --> 00:28:26.460 operating at a six -month level and they throw 00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:28.799 something at a child or at me, I would really 00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:31.500 just say single words or something very simple 00:28:31.500 --> 00:28:36.319 like, uh -oh, out. and try to, you know, redirect 00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:39.480 at that stage. Yeah, and then if they were age 00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:42.619 six or seven, maybe you do a social story or 00:28:42.619 --> 00:28:48.000 a visual prompt or a verbal prompt or get them 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:50.299 to go and pick it up and say sorry even, you 00:28:50.299 --> 00:28:51.839 know, like those kind of things, depending on 00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:56.750 where the child is at. It has to be appropriate 00:28:56.750 --> 00:28:58.650 for them. So when we're talking about consistency, 00:28:58.890 --> 00:29:00.630 it's consistency across the adults. It's not 00:29:00.630 --> 00:29:03.309 consistency across all children. I think that's 00:29:03.309 --> 00:29:05.059 the difference, isn't it? That's the difference 00:29:05.059 --> 00:29:08.099 between equity and equality. Equality in the 00:29:08.099 --> 00:29:10.440 classroom would treat everybody the same. So 00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:13.859 nobody can throw in the classroom. Well, that 00:29:13.859 --> 00:29:15.640 doesn't work in a classroom like mine because 00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:17.759 I have students that are working at zero months 00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:20.019 that their learning is actually to throw and 00:29:20.019 --> 00:29:22.680 drop an item. Like that is their math is to learn 00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:24.940 to release. So it would be really wrong of me 00:29:24.940 --> 00:29:27.900 to have that consistent boundary across all children. 00:29:28.019 --> 00:29:31.339 Whereas I have children that understand they 00:29:31.339 --> 00:29:34.670 can't throw in the classroom. Because of their 00:29:34.670 --> 00:29:36.970 sensory needs, they do. But they know where they 00:29:36.970 --> 00:29:42.089 should be throwing outside or in the sensory 00:29:42.089 --> 00:29:43.809 room or whatever. And they know what they should 00:29:43.809 --> 00:29:45.849 be throwing. So it's very different across my 00:29:45.849 --> 00:29:49.150 learners. I'm consistent with each child individually 00:29:49.150 --> 00:29:51.230 with my adults. Well, I try to be, obviously. 00:29:51.690 --> 00:29:54.869 We try to be. But what we don't mean is that 00:29:54.869 --> 00:29:57.019 we're... consistent classroom. We don't have 00:29:57.019 --> 00:29:59.420 the same expectations for all children necessarily, 00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:02.799 unless your children are randomly just all the 00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:05.579 same, which I don't think I've ever, I've worked 00:30:05.579 --> 00:30:08.650 with these classes for about 16 years now. And 00:30:08.650 --> 00:30:11.250 I have never had a class with all of the children 00:30:11.250 --> 00:30:13.170 with the same sensory profile, the same needs, 00:30:13.210 --> 00:30:15.430 same understanding, same receptive, same expressive. 00:30:15.650 --> 00:30:17.430 It just doesn't work like that. That's the beauty 00:30:17.430 --> 00:30:19.509 of it really, isn't it? Working with these lovely 00:30:19.509 --> 00:30:21.809 children is the beauty of that. And I think you 00:30:21.809 --> 00:30:24.410 raise a really interesting point that is, yes, 00:30:24.470 --> 00:30:26.930 the consistencies around the boundary agreement 00:30:26.930 --> 00:30:30.289 within the team, but not necessarily across children. 00:30:30.630 --> 00:30:33.809 And I've worked with a couple of throwers before. 00:30:33.950 --> 00:30:37.230 And sometimes what works well is also giving 00:30:37.230 --> 00:30:40.819 them a... safe object to throw right um and really 00:30:40.819 --> 00:30:44.019 honoring that fun that they're having but teaching 00:30:44.019 --> 00:30:47.140 them how to throw safely because there's nothing 00:30:47.140 --> 00:30:49.960 wrong with throwing it's just that the consequence 00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:53.210 of it if it's an object that can be unsafe can 00:30:53.210 --> 00:30:56.210 be you know yeah yeah exactly and I suppose it's 00:30:56.210 --> 00:30:58.529 also asking the question is this the biggest 00:30:58.529 --> 00:31:02.329 thing to tackle right now as well so it's being 00:31:02.329 --> 00:31:05.509 consistent but if they are also incredibly dysregulated 00:31:05.509 --> 00:31:08.849 because it's photo day and it's raining and they've 00:31:08.849 --> 00:31:10.210 just been dropped off so they've had a tricky 00:31:10.210 --> 00:31:12.029 transition and they haven't slept the night before 00:31:12.029 --> 00:31:14.890 they're feeling poorly and it's non -uniform 00:31:14.890 --> 00:31:17.309 day I mean these things happen I'm not going 00:31:17.309 --> 00:31:20.039 to bring up Also the throwing. I'm going to ignore 00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:23.059 the throwing on this day and I'm going to manage 00:31:23.059 --> 00:31:25.660 the rest of the thing. So yes, it's being consistent, 00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:28.200 but it's being flexible in that structure of 00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:30.059 consistency. And that's where it gets tricky, 00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:33.740 isn't it? That's where years of experience come 00:31:33.740 --> 00:31:36.240 into play, where it's kind of a gut feeling. 00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:38.900 Yes, we know we shouldn't throw. Yes, this child 00:31:38.900 --> 00:31:40.640 knows we shouldn't throw. Yes, we know the rules. 00:31:40.779 --> 00:31:44.359 However, in this situation, it is the least of 00:31:44.359 --> 00:31:47.200 our worries. This is a minimal behavior in this 00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:49.019 situation. situation we're going to tackle the 00:31:49.019 --> 00:31:52.119 big thing in the room which is that they feel 00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:54.440 unsafe and triggered because of this transition 00:31:54.440 --> 00:31:57.519 if I tell them off and go through all the steps 00:31:57.519 --> 00:31:59.980 that we normally do for throwing it's going to 00:31:59.980 --> 00:32:02.019 make it worse it's going to make him more unsafe 00:32:02.019 --> 00:32:04.160 more dysregulated it's going to upset the room 00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:06.119 even more in fact it's going to throw even more 00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:08.240 and going to be even more unsafe so what are 00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:10.440 we actually doing this for are we doing this 00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:13.500 to control him and make him compliant to the 00:32:13.500 --> 00:32:17.069 rules or are we doing it to support him in this 00:32:17.069 --> 00:32:20.569 moment exactly so that's a good question to ask 00:32:20.569 --> 00:32:23.470 yourself yes it might look inconsistent and often 00:32:23.470 --> 00:32:25.450 i get my staff saying oh i thought we were gonna 00:32:25.450 --> 00:32:29.089 do yes we were yes we are but in this moment 00:32:29.089 --> 00:32:32.569 this child needs to know we are safe and we are 00:32:32.569 --> 00:32:35.650 understanding him and we are for him that he 00:32:35.650 --> 00:32:37.430 won't even remember that he's just thrown that 00:32:37.430 --> 00:32:40.690 he is in a complete fog of dysregulation reasoning 00:32:40.690 --> 00:32:42.910 with him we can't reason with him right now this 00:32:42.910 --> 00:32:46.220 isn't the moment this isn't the time so It is 00:32:46.220 --> 00:32:48.359 having that concrete structure. It is having 00:32:48.359 --> 00:32:50.000 those consistent boundaries that everybody knows. 00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:52.980 But once they ask it and once everybody does 00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:56.160 know it, it's having that then flexibility. And 00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:57.859 I think that's what makes it neuroaffirming. 00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:00.480 That's the difference, isn't it? Yes, it's that 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:04.160 flexibility. That ability to be flexible and 00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:06.779 to just be constantly asking yourself as a bit 00:33:06.779 --> 00:33:09.579 of a mantra, what would be the most supportive 00:33:09.579 --> 00:33:11.960 thing for this child in this moment right now? 00:33:12.339 --> 00:33:14.799 Sometimes it is to keep to the boundary. And 00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:16.220 the structure, because that's almost what they're 00:33:16.220 --> 00:33:19.059 asking us to do. They want to know that that 00:33:19.059 --> 00:33:20.880 is the boundary and they feel safe and secure 00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:23.079 in that. Other times, like I've just described, 00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:25.720 it isn't. And actually that isn't helpful in 00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:28.599 that moment. And I know that can be really, really 00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:32.099 confusing. And you have just got to feel it. 00:33:32.140 --> 00:33:34.740 And it's different for every child in every moment. 00:33:35.779 --> 00:33:41.019 But that's how I navigate it, is I just ask myself, 00:33:41.339 --> 00:33:45.130 what is the... What is the child needing the 00:33:45.130 --> 00:33:48.309 most right now? What is the child's backstory? 00:33:49.230 --> 00:33:52.109 Yeah. What are the roots of the day? You know, 00:33:52.109 --> 00:33:54.569 a bit like an iceberg analogy. You know, we just 00:33:54.569 --> 00:33:56.349 see the iceberg. We just see the throwing and 00:33:56.349 --> 00:33:58.789 the dysregulation. But all that ice is under 00:33:58.789 --> 00:34:02.710 the water, all that stuff of illness and dysregulation. 00:34:02.809 --> 00:34:05.509 Maybe mum was a bit moany this morning and maybe 00:34:05.509 --> 00:34:07.130 they didn't have their breakfast and maybe they 00:34:07.130 --> 00:34:09.250 didn't, you know, all those things that they're 00:34:09.250 --> 00:34:11.329 coming in with. That's the real thing that we 00:34:11.329 --> 00:34:13.989 need to tackle right now. It isn't actually the 00:34:13.989 --> 00:34:15.829 throwing. The throwing is just an aftermath of 00:34:15.829 --> 00:34:19.820 the actual real. thing that's going on yes sometimes 00:34:19.820 --> 00:34:22.960 it is absolutely and I think that kind of nicely 00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:25.960 ties into the social story as well because the 00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:28.639 purpose of the social story is not going to be 00:34:28.639 --> 00:34:31.260 compliance with the rules and we're not going 00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:34.340 to be using sentences like I will have calm hands 00:34:34.340 --> 00:34:36.920 and not throw things it's just going to be about 00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:39.780 really self -advocacy and trying to understand 00:34:39.780 --> 00:34:42.719 you know you know how I feel when I want to throw 00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:46.639 and why I throw and what I can throw and what's 00:34:46.699 --> 00:34:50.460 It's not super safe to throw and how to ask for 00:34:50.460 --> 00:34:53.719 help with throwing. I love that. Do you know 00:34:53.719 --> 00:34:55.260 what? That's something that we don't do very 00:34:55.260 --> 00:34:57.480 well. We've just started using social stories 00:34:57.480 --> 00:34:59.179 with them. I've used them in the past, but we 00:34:59.179 --> 00:35:00.780 just started using social stories at my class. 00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:03.800 We've just recently got a pupil that was able 00:35:03.800 --> 00:35:05.820 to access those. We haven't had that for a while. 00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:09.159 and actually you're right we have gone down the 00:35:09.159 --> 00:35:12.000 accidentally down the control and compliance 00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:14.000 route we're talking about inside voices we're 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:15.719 talking about safe hands we're talking about 00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:17.900 respecting our friends we're talking about being 00:35:17.900 --> 00:35:20.679 safe and you're so right actually what is more 00:35:20.679 --> 00:35:25.119 helpful to her would be feel like my ears ring 00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:28.219 when it is loud i don't know like yeah i can 00:35:28.219 --> 00:35:30.260 find an adult where my or i've been going at 00:35:30.260 --> 00:35:32.199 my ear defenders when i'm feeling yeah so it's 00:35:32.199 --> 00:35:34.750 that That is, I'm going to rewrite them because 00:35:34.750 --> 00:35:37.389 that is so crucial and a really great reminder 00:35:37.389 --> 00:35:40.269 of being affirming, not only when what we're 00:35:40.269 --> 00:35:42.150 doing, but also what we're writing, what we're 00:35:42.150 --> 00:35:45.510 giving the children. Our messaging is really 00:35:45.510 --> 00:35:48.050 important and that's something we aren't doing 00:35:48.050 --> 00:35:50.489 very well, actually. So we can improve that. 00:35:50.630 --> 00:35:53.949 So thank you for that. For sure. And I think 00:35:53.949 --> 00:35:56.730 also kind of realizing that maybe social stories 00:35:56.730 --> 00:36:00.559 can be accessible too. non -speaking children 00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:03.559 as well you can make them really simple it can 00:36:03.559 --> 00:36:07.420 be simple photos or some you know symbols if 00:36:07.420 --> 00:36:10.739 they can access symbols so for example we have 00:36:10.739 --> 00:36:13.239 been preparing a child for a transition about 00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:16.860 actually a small transition a new classmate and 00:36:16.860 --> 00:36:20.340 this child is non -speaking but we've made a 00:36:20.340 --> 00:36:23.239 very simple two -page social story about you 00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:26.500 know my name is and these are my classmates and 00:36:26.500 --> 00:36:30.219 there is a new picture And we are like, that's 00:36:30.219 --> 00:36:32.739 it. We're just recognizing that there is a change. 00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:35.199 And let's regulate about that change together. 00:36:35.260 --> 00:36:38.579 It prepares them. Moving house, I've used them 00:36:38.579 --> 00:36:40.500 for. Transitions are really great, actually. 00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:42.219 Social stories are fantastic for transitions. 00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:45.239 Transitioning of, I don't know, starting periods, 00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:49.420 moving house, change in, it's a fire alarm. So, 00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:52.239 you know, preparing them for an eventual situation 00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:55.210 or event is. really they're really really great 00:36:55.210 --> 00:36:57.570 and yeah i've used them with quite you know high 00:36:57.570 --> 00:37:01.309 needs minimally speaking children as well and 00:37:01.309 --> 00:37:03.550 yeah have had really good success and also it 00:37:03.550 --> 00:37:06.170 doesn't hurt even if they can't receive that 00:37:06.170 --> 00:37:10.880 information um It is helpful. I've also done 00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:14.099 it through sensory stories and play as well. 00:37:14.139 --> 00:37:16.059 So we were going to the trampoline park, for 00:37:16.059 --> 00:37:18.159 example, and I was really panicked that they 00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:20.420 had to wear these stupid sticky socks. Do you 00:37:20.420 --> 00:37:23.699 know the ones? And I thought, this is going to 00:37:23.699 --> 00:37:26.179 be a huge barrier for us enjoying this trampoline 00:37:26.179 --> 00:37:27.760 park. They're going to love the trampoline park, 00:37:27.820 --> 00:37:29.960 but if they don't wear the socks, we aren't allowed 00:37:29.960 --> 00:37:33.079 to come in. And I was really anxious, actually, 00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:36.159 stemming from my anxiety. That this is going 00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:37.940 to be a huge barrier for them. So we're going 00:37:37.940 --> 00:37:40.159 to practice wearing socks. So what we did is 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:42.900 every day for the week leading up, we practice 00:37:42.900 --> 00:37:44.400 wearing our socks. And then we jumped on the 00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:47.099 little trampette in my class. So they would learn, 00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:49.420 if I want to jump, I have to wear the socks. 00:37:49.579 --> 00:37:51.579 So that when we went to the trip and we show 00:37:51.579 --> 00:37:54.039 them the socks, they would have seen it. They'd 00:37:54.039 --> 00:37:56.280 have felt it. They'd know that we have to put 00:37:56.280 --> 00:37:58.239 it on. They know that we have to put it on in 00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:00.860 order to bounce. That concept would make sense 00:38:00.860 --> 00:38:05.139 to them. Like I said, very high needs children, 00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:07.739 some working at six months, and yet it helped 00:38:07.739 --> 00:38:09.719 them because they'd already felt the socks. They 00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:11.960 weren't brand new. And also we'd worn the socks 00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:14.239 in a little bit. They got used to the smell, 00:38:14.300 --> 00:38:17.300 the feeling, all of that. That's a social story. 00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:20.719 It doesn't have to be written. Yeah, exactly. 00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:23.679 I want to say that. Amazing. Because a lot of 00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:26.039 times, you know, when we do like, you've mentioned 00:38:26.039 --> 00:38:29.260 it before, definitely like sensory stories. You 00:38:29.260 --> 00:38:31.159 can do social stories the way you do sensory 00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:33.420 stories, exactly what you described. And you 00:38:33.420 --> 00:38:36.480 can share a message without like a book. So that's 00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:38.920 such a powerful way to really allow them to experience 00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:40.840 everything beforehand and decide whether they 00:38:40.840 --> 00:38:43.400 like it or not and whether they feel safe in 00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:46.739 it or not. And actually, it's a very powerful 00:38:46.739 --> 00:38:49.449 example you gave because they were able to. Try 00:38:49.449 --> 00:38:52.210 something new in a known environment, in a safe 00:38:52.210 --> 00:38:55.710 environment. That's really a powerful strategy 00:38:55.710 --> 00:38:58.050 that you're using there. I've got some coming 00:38:58.050 --> 00:39:00.530 out next year, actually. This year, all my sensory 00:39:00.530 --> 00:39:03.289 stories coming out are all to do with my curriculum. 00:39:03.630 --> 00:39:05.409 Next year, they're all to do with social stories. 00:39:05.429 --> 00:39:08.230 So we've got bath time, haircuts, dentists, hospital 00:39:08.230 --> 00:39:11.190 visits, all of those terrifying things that parents 00:39:11.190 --> 00:39:15.170 think, how are we going to get them there? i'm 00:39:15.170 --> 00:39:17.989 hoping that yeah through sensory stories they 00:39:17.989 --> 00:39:20.170 can have already experienced all of the things 00:39:20.170 --> 00:39:22.489 that they're going to feel and hear and smell 00:39:22.489 --> 00:39:26.489 and experience too so it's not as much of a shock 00:39:26.489 --> 00:39:29.449 when they actually do the thing is my hope so 00:39:29.449 --> 00:39:32.969 they're coming next year don't you're gonna nag 00:39:32.969 --> 00:39:34.610 me for them now but yeah they're coming next 00:39:34.610 --> 00:39:36.489 year because i think it's really important to 00:39:36.489 --> 00:39:39.869 have accessible social stories for high needs 00:39:39.869 --> 00:39:44.360 people not just children but all people It reminds 00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:46.679 me of a conversation I just had recently with 00:39:46.679 --> 00:39:49.619 a parent who really wanted to take her child 00:39:49.619 --> 00:39:53.579 on a holiday. And she was like... But I'm so 00:39:53.579 --> 00:39:56.099 worried about the whole sensory aspect of it. 00:39:56.219 --> 00:40:00.000 How is it going to go? You know, so we explored 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:03.780 trying on the headphones and going to the Natural 00:40:03.780 --> 00:40:06.400 History Museum, Natural, I'm sorry, the Museum 00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:09.699 of Transport to go and sit in a plane because 00:40:09.699 --> 00:40:12.139 there is a model plane you can sit in and trying 00:40:12.139 --> 00:40:14.460 to touching it from the outside, from the inside. 00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:17.500 So really trying to use the environment, whatever 00:40:17.500 --> 00:40:21.630 you've got available. to prepare your sensory 00:40:21.630 --> 00:40:24.489 system for that in one thing at a time rather 00:40:24.489 --> 00:40:27.670 than it all at once yes and when there's a deadline 00:40:27.670 --> 00:40:29.630 there's not a deadline if you do it beforehand 00:40:29.630 --> 00:40:32.269 we could wait 20 minutes for children to put 00:40:32.269 --> 00:40:35.269 on their sticky socks when we were in our safe 00:40:35.269 --> 00:40:38.289 environment but when you're yeah when you're 00:40:38.289 --> 00:40:40.389 on the holiday there's deadlines there's timelines 00:40:40.389 --> 00:40:43.630 you can't have this regulation and freeze mode 00:40:44.380 --> 00:40:47.099 for two hours in the airport whilst you're trying 00:40:47.099 --> 00:40:49.539 to regulate yourself again because you've got 00:40:49.539 --> 00:40:51.780 a plane to catch. That's stressful, isn't it? 00:40:51.820 --> 00:40:55.260 So do those things beforehand. So one at a time 00:40:55.260 --> 00:40:58.119 and get used to it is, yeah, really wonderful 00:40:58.119 --> 00:41:00.940 advice. And actually this podcast is coming out 00:41:00.940 --> 00:41:03.659 in June, I believe. So people will be preparing 00:41:03.659 --> 00:41:06.480 for and thinking about their upcoming holidays 00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:08.480 or even a trip to the beach, a trip to the park, 00:41:08.679 --> 00:41:11.280 a trip to now and granddad's new house, whatever 00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:13.980 it is that you're planning on doing. maybe have 00:41:13.980 --> 00:41:16.219 an experiment with this maybe if it's a written 00:41:16.219 --> 00:41:20.380 story or a photo story or even a sensory story 00:41:20.380 --> 00:41:22.719 about what is that experience for them what are 00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:24.659 the steps that we're going to have to go to from 00:41:24.659 --> 00:41:28.059 their safety in the home all the way to achieving 00:41:28.059 --> 00:41:30.400 this thing and then back again what does that 00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:32.199 look like what does that smell like what does 00:41:32.199 --> 00:41:36.059 that feel like to them and then yeah practicing 00:41:36.059 --> 00:41:38.500 that and reading that through that i hope that 00:41:38.500 --> 00:41:41.500 it would oh it's not gonna hurt but i hope that 00:41:41.500 --> 00:41:45.829 it would make it a really positive and more accessible 00:41:45.829 --> 00:41:48.170 experience because they feel like they've already 00:41:48.170 --> 00:41:50.289 done it. And I think what I want to highlight 00:41:50.289 --> 00:41:52.949 here is that we're not trying to achieve sensory 00:41:52.949 --> 00:41:56.659 desensitization. We're just trying to achieve 00:41:56.659 --> 00:41:59.579 kind of trying out the accommodations that are 00:41:59.579 --> 00:42:02.519 available. So, you know, for example, the plane 00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:05.559 example, we were trying out the feeling of the 00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:07.940 headphones that will block out the sounds because 00:42:07.940 --> 00:42:11.579 we know this child was sound sensitive. And then 00:42:11.579 --> 00:42:13.900 obviously trying to see how the plane looks like 00:42:13.900 --> 00:42:16.260 so that it's. Obviously not a shop for the first 00:42:16.260 --> 00:42:18.139 time because that was for them to go for the 00:42:18.139 --> 00:42:20.420 first time. But what we weren't doing is that 00:42:20.420 --> 00:42:22.539 we were not exposing the child to loud noises 00:42:22.539 --> 00:42:24.440 so that they're okay with it on the flight day. 00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:27.739 Yeah, that's so important to say. We are preparing 00:42:27.739 --> 00:42:31.800 them for what's happening. We're not desensitizing 00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:35.119 them because that isn't neuroaffirming, is it? 00:42:36.909 --> 00:42:39.510 that pushing through, masking. We're not asking 00:42:39.510 --> 00:42:41.989 them to mask their needs. We're just asking them 00:42:41.989 --> 00:42:45.329 to, we're just helping them know what is going 00:42:45.329 --> 00:42:48.010 to happen so they can be better prepared for 00:42:48.010 --> 00:42:50.389 it. I think that is, that's the difference, isn't 00:42:50.389 --> 00:42:53.409 it? Yes, that's the difference for sure. Amazing. 00:42:53.590 --> 00:42:55.250 On that note, that's going to be my homework. 00:42:55.429 --> 00:42:57.949 I'm going to rewrite my social stories. Thank 00:42:57.949 --> 00:43:00.409 you for that. That's brilliant. That's amazing 00:43:00.409 --> 00:43:03.110 too. I love using these as homework. I often 00:43:03.110 --> 00:43:05.070 give myself homework in these podcasts. So that 00:43:05.070 --> 00:43:07.679 will be mine for this week. having a think about 00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:10.300 my social stories and my messaging to my children 00:43:10.300 --> 00:43:12.340 and making sure that's just as affirming as everything 00:43:12.340 --> 00:43:14.820 else we do um i think we could do a better job 00:43:14.820 --> 00:43:18.309 than that so thank you so much amazing You've 00:43:18.309 --> 00:43:20.429 got a new website, haven't you? Do you want to 00:43:20.429 --> 00:43:22.289 share about that? Yeah, I've been building my 00:43:22.289 --> 00:43:25.289 new website lately and I just finally launched 00:43:25.289 --> 00:43:28.369 it. I'm such a huge perfectionist. Honestly, 00:43:28.429 --> 00:43:30.630 I need to let go of that. It was great fun building 00:43:30.630 --> 00:43:34.329 it. So yeah, it's at www .speechesteem .com. 00:43:34.530 --> 00:43:36.869 So if anybody's interested in working with me, 00:43:36.949 --> 00:43:39.869 they can have a look to see when I work with 00:43:39.869 --> 00:43:42.710 children who are autistic, but also I'm able 00:43:42.710 --> 00:43:46.590 to support children who have developmental language. 00:43:46.829 --> 00:43:50.750 disorder, language delays, little ones that might 00:43:50.750 --> 00:43:53.630 not yet be so confident in using communication 00:43:53.630 --> 00:43:59.050 and supporting through emotional regulation as 00:43:59.050 --> 00:44:02.289 well. So really excited to see what it brings. 00:44:02.670 --> 00:44:04.989 Amazing. And if you're not local to London, then 00:44:04.989 --> 00:44:08.349 definitely also check out Natalia's social media 00:44:08.349 --> 00:44:10.889 as well, which has got loads of information in 00:44:10.889 --> 00:44:14.860 there. And it's at self. at speech esteem isn't 00:44:14.860 --> 00:44:17.880 it speech esteem yes speech esteem on social 00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:20.280 media thank you so much for joining me it's been 00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:22.940 an absolute joy and I personally have gotten 00:44:22.940 --> 00:44:25.260 a lot out of it so I hope that everybody listening 00:44:25.260 --> 00:44:28.119 has as well thank you so much for having me it 00:44:28.119 --> 00:44:28.860 was great fun