Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education
teacher from the UK. I share my passion for everything
communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson
ideas for my classroom of disabled pupils aged
4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in
the field answering your questions and sharing
our knowledge and experience working alongside
our beautiful young people. Let's get started.
Hello everybody and welcome back to the podcast.
Today I am joined by Chloe who is an SEN teacher
of secondary school children and I first started
following her maybe a year ago now and we're
just so aligned and every post that she says
about I'm like yeah I either do that or I need
to start doing that so I've been kind of nagging
her to get onto the podcast. I'm really pleased
she's finally joined me. Hello Chloe! Welcome.
I have been kind of nagging you, haven't I? Sorry
about that. I've not been in this world for very
long. Everything is so, like, new and scary.
When you said about the podcast, I was like,
no, no, that's really scary. But I'm glad that
I just went for it. Yeah, you got to, right?
When did you start your account? Literally this
time last year, January last year. So, yeah,
and I feel like I'm fangirling a little bit.
me and my tm like send each other your tiktoks
all the time and be like so cute i should do
this and then she convinced me to start my own
so literally yeah january last year definitely
yeah i started sensory i did our sensory kids
before that i only started sensory class in the
december okay so I only did like a month before
you I think I was I followed you almost straight
away then because it feels like I've been following
you for a really long time and we're just so
reliant everything you were sharing yeah it just
felt like finally someone that actually gets
it like I found it really confirming yes yeah
yeah it was like share like people people think
the same as I do Yeah, I'm not on my own. I'm
part of a mainstream school. So it can be incredibly
isolating, like doing this stuff and like coming
in with your bucket every Monday. And all the
other teachers, like just thinking I'm absolutely
mad. And it was really nice to think, no, I'm
doing this right. And actually, you've got some
most incredible attention autism ideas. I mean,
God, that's one reason to follow you alone, right?
So was it your teacher assistants that brought
you into the social media space then? Yeah, so
we obviously, like, followed loads of different
accounts for ages. And honestly, like, social
media is so good for ideas and new practices.
And you haven't got to read a million research.
Get it in a 10 -second video. So we were always
sending each other videos and stuff. And she
was like, do this. Like, you should set up an
account. Like, more attention to autism, we would
do it. Because I was learning on the go. And
it just blew from all these ideas. We did the
most beautiful, she nagged me for months. Come
on, you've got to do it. I was like, I'm just
going to go for it. So we did it. And yeah, I'm
so glad we did it. It's going so well, right?
Well, yeah. You're in. Daniel, you're on amazing.
But yeah, I'm enjoying it. And it's just nice.
It's a lovely. It's a lovely community as well,
isn't it? Like all of us are so. supportive and
understanding and there's a really nice little
group of us now that kind of like hold each other
I just love it I'm sure other social media groups
aren't like that it just feels really warm and
fuzzy doesn't it and I think like where else
would I have the opportunity to speak to so many
other professionals so many people that are in
the same situation as me or similar but like
we live so far apart we would never yeah without
this and also even if we didn't live close apart
it's so hard to get access to occupational therapists
now speech and language therapists physios like
it's so hard to get that face -to -face interaction
just because they're incredibly overworked you
know they've got such large caseloads even if
they do come into class you barely get five minutes
with them because they're with the kids and then
you know they're off you know and you're doing
your thing so yeah to have access to them in
your pocket at all times just like a question
just feels so great doesn't it Yeah, I have learned
so much from social media. I will gladly wear
a crown of TikTok teacher. Absolutely. Do you
ever do this? I always do it in a staff meeting.
I go to start a sentence with, on TikTok, I saw
this video that I kind of hid. I'm like, I just
saw this. I did this research. I'm like, oh,
yeah, I read this really interesting article.
Yeah. It was, you know, really long research
paper. It was a TikTok video. Absolutely. And
they're all looking at me like, we know it's
TikTok. So funny. Do you want to tell me a little
bit about your class then? Because it maybe sounds
a little bit like my old class, actually. So
yeah, tell me a little. Tell me a little bit.
Yeah, I think so. So I have the most gorgeous
class. I will be biased. They are the best in
the school. I love them so much. So I've got
nine students currently with PMLD, so profound
multiple learning difficulties. I've got a broad
range. So I've got a kind of really free group,
all the attention to autism, intensive interaction,
and all of that beautiful stuff. And then I've
got another couple that love that as well. But
then we're also trying to teach and things with
them as well. We need more. So, yeah, they're
gorgeous. We've got nine children, six adults,
sometimes seven if we're looking. And yeah, very
much autism, intense intervention, child led
as much as we can. Yeah. And lots of physio and
things as well. Do you have lots of? Yeah. It
takes a lot of time. I find I've got in my current
class, I've I kind of split the class a little
bit. I've got 10 total and I have four children
in the PMLD kind of group, if you will. And yet
lots of what takes most of their time in the
day is care needs and physio and meeting those
kind of given targets that aren't even our stuff,
you know, everything else. yeah so the attention
autism and the intensive interaction and the
sensory massage story type stuff when you get
it in there wherever you get it in just feels
really lovely doesn't it because it's just so
fun and it and why shouldn't these kids have
those those activities as well as the you know
or if you can combine them you know if you could
be in your physio chair and be doing attention
autism even better kind of doing it is you're
trying to fit everything in and overlapping things
absolutely yes so we have quite a few children
that need physios do so it's kind of working
around them and I find it we're so flexible like
we have a timetable we have you know we're in
secondary school we have all these you have to
do art you have to do cooking with us you have
to do English but if I can make a cooking lesson
an intensive in autism or if I can make an art
lesson an intensive interactive I will do it.
Yeah, and that's the great thing about attention
autism, right? You literally can. Yes, absolutely.
I've spoke to so many people on social media
and at my school that thought it was a standalone
thing and it was just about attention and it
was just for autistic people. I think the name
doesn't really lend itself, does it? No, it doesn't
at all. It needs to be renamed. I think so. Yeah,
because it's for everybody. Everybody loves it.
Everybody can benefit from it. We... We do it
at the start of the year when we're just doing
stage one, the box. It's a standalone thing.
It's minutes. It's just a thing that you do.
But as soon as we get on stage two, that is our
lesson. It's our English lesson. It's our maths
lesson. It's any lesson I can weave it into.
Because I think it's just the best way we learn.
Yeah. They pick up so much more from it. And
I've talked to a lot of staff at my school about
it. You can do... anything you can teach have
you tried the curiosity program with yours i
haven't but i really really want to you know
they're like in that intensive interaction and
bucket and the stage two that very visual stuff
it is all that the only thing the only difference
i've done for my pmld learners is i mean the
idea is that the on paper idea is that they come
into the tough tray and they kind of explore
the things as well whereas my learners aren't
able to do that like physically aren't able to
do that so they're in their corner chairs or
as low as I can get their chair so they're kind
of in it and then I come to them so I rather
than sprinkling the balls on the tough tray and
they come to the tough tray I just sprinkle the
balls on them you know this kind of thing so
I'm kind of I've changed it a little bit and
I'm bringing it to them but they absolutely love
it like it's an absolute joy we're seeing really
great anticipation really great collaboration
really great vocalizations like they find it
really exciting so yeah I'd highly recommend
having a look at curiosity yeah I really want
to I've seen a lot of stuff about it and researched
a little bit into it I think a few of my students
like it's them they need to do it lots of the
training I found like I had to kind of tune some
stuff out because it was they were talking lots
about 18 months and under and I had to kind of
tune it out a little bit and just think How could
this work for my learners? And what would I need
to change? You know, it's not all appropriate.
But lots of it is. And lots of it is exactly
what they're needing and where they're at. So
I just kind of handpick. So if you do do the
training, you might have to do that as well.
You have to tweak everything to make it bespoke
for all children. I mean, all teachers should
and probably do anyway, don't they? Is kind of
take bits and magpie bits and change things.
yeah students i think that's the luxury of special
ed isn't it yeah massively yeah i think you have
to take everything don't you and tweak it to
fit yours because no student is the same no class
is the same it's not a one -size -fits -all at
all that we know everything we do there are no
rules we can mix it up if we want to yeah exactly
and i was saying uh yesterday actually that we're
talking about communication And I was like, yeah,
I've got 10 learners in my class. And I think
I counted once that I've got 16 methods of communication
in my room. When you start counting. Yeah, I'm
sure I got to 16. I was like, oh, that's actually
quite a lot actually. So let's talk visual. Let's
talk communication. How are your learners communicating
with you and how are you communicating with them?
So we are kind of off the, and we're kind of.
because I feel like my class now are very different
to the I went into when I first started to do
and I feel like there's a whole shift at the
minute in special education about communication
and we are moving away from pets and exchanging
and snicking through symbols and withholding
and all of that and actually no any communication
is amazing and wonderful and if my child a child
in my class points to swing or points to the
door and I know what they're doing they're going
they're getting they're getting it take that
beautifully and we're really having a big kind
of emphasis on any communication all communication
is valid in our classroom we're trying to make
that possible make community accessible for everybody
so my classroom is covered in widget symbols
we're actually in the process of changing them
Because at the minute, I've got symbols. So on
the fridge, I've got a snack symbol. I've got
a side symbol on the door. I've got a toilet
symbol on the toilet. But they're just stuck
on. Students will go out or get an adult, take
them over and point to it. So we're in the process
of changing everything up. They can take them
off. They're kind of taken away. So they haven't
got to find an adult, take them to the thing.
and then get it, it can just bring me. It's a
barrier otherwise, isn't it? Yeah. Have you tried
sound buttons? Yes. Yes. Because they could be
good next to it as well. So they don't even have
to leave there and they can just be. Hang it.
Yeah. Put it here all day. Well, yeah, there
is that. But then, hey, that's their voice. It
doesn't mean you have to say yes. We use sound
points as part of our story. Lovely. Isn't that?
Quite small, some of ours, practicing the fine
motor skills. Right, okay. Big ones are quite
nice. Yeah, I've got ones maybe like this. They're
a little bit easy, but yeah, it still takes some
dexterity to do it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So
we're kind of practicing with those. And then
we're also creating some thick bit of cards.
I haven't got one to show you, but thick bit
of cards. And then we've got an object of reference.
So, for example, a pack of mini cheddars. And
then the symbol for mini cheddars. and then the
sound button so they can say it. So you're kind
of hitting them all. So we might still be on
objects of reference. They might still be using
objects of reference to communicate, but we're
still seeing the symbol and we're still... Right.
We're still modelling it. And at different times
of the day, like our learners get really tired
or if they're poorly or dysregulated or whatever,
they might need a different one at different
times of the day, mightn't they? Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, that's it. So we're kind of... We're going
with them all. All of our students have their
own communication book. Yeah. We've got a big
packet full in my classroom of all their books.
And at the start of the day, they'll go out and
we'll keep them with each student. They're all
personalized, which is really good. Yeah. And
then all staff wear one of our lovely hallboards.
There we go. We bring one home. Which this seems
to be quite popular on my park a lot. Right.
questions about these and a lot of people saying
where did you buy the folder from can I see more
in detail and it's so easy. My wonderful TA who
made me start TikTok she was the first person
that showed me this idea and I was like yes yeah
let's just carry it around. So I know that we've
downloaded these folders and we just made the
core board on Widget. My class have been using
them for years now and we've recently rolled
it out a lot of the other classes in school.
I can see everybody walking around with them
on now. And we've added extra. So you can slot
things in. We put a one, two, three, four on
the back. And then do you just whiteboard pens?
Whiteboard pens are my best friend. Great. So
it's just always got it. I've always got a whiteboard
pen on my lanyard. I've always got it attached
to me. I don't need to be stumbling around for
symbols. Because it's always that moment, isn't
it? And you haven't got what you need. And then
you're fumbling around for a pen and it's too
late. The moment's gone. Or they become dysregulated
and you can't then communicate in that way. Or
the moment's gone, that learning opportunity
has evaporated and you've lost your opportunity.
So yeah, having everything on you is just great,
isn't it? I have the perfect scenario for when
this was needed. It was before we'd started that.
I didn't have one. We fired rail. And one of
my learners was so upset because he couldn't
go on the swing that we've got on the playground.
Because, you know, when we're on the playground,
he's allowed on the swings. Right, that's so
confusing. So he was down on the floor, quite
upset. I was lying on the floor next to him.
And I had a pen and I was about three seconds
away from drawing a now and next on my hand.
I could not find anything else. And then my TA
came running over with a scrappy little bit of
paper that she'd just found in her pocket and
was like, you need this. through an hour next
that said um waiting or line up and then swing
and it was like magic yeah and but if I'd had
that on me it would have been it is like magic
isn't it because you can be saying all of those
things you know but I've said all that it doesn't
go in does it when when they're sometimes it
doesn't go in at all just regardless but especially
if they're dysregulated they just can't process
that you know that receptive language they can't
receive it whereas a visual especially for those
learners that have a longer processing time or
autistic or for whatever reason, they're just
more visual learners. They seem to process that
a little bit easier, don't they? Also, I've also
found, I don't know if you've found this, I'd
be interested to know if you've found it. When
I give an instruction that they don't want to
do, for example, line up first, then swing, maybe,
then they're angry at me. But if my whiteboard
says it or my now and next board says it, they
kind of don't make... I don't know. They're annoyed
at me. They're not annoyed at me. I don't see
that. Have you noticed that? Absolutely. Yeah,
yeah. If I say, you know, come on, line up, it'll
be, what? No, thank you. No, it's different to
show the symbol. I think it takes that confrontation
away. It does. You know, the demand at home,
because as nice as you need to stay time to line
up, it's still a demand. Yeah, of course. You
become the deliverer of the bad news, don't you?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I've worked with lots
of different people, lots of different ages,
lots of different, you know, cognitive ability.
And it seems to always be the same that even
if I write a list, you know, whatever they can
understand, they read it, then it's the list
that's given the instruction. It's then not me.
It takes me out of the situation. So I can just
support them with it rather than being, yeah,
the deliverer of whatever demand. is that we
need to do i think it's just more concrete as
well isn't it like true your students have got
longer processing time by the you've you say
and it's gone it's disappeared into yeah whereas
if it's there in front of them then i forget
that by the time the process is still there they
know what they need to do next Yeah, and it reduces
anxiety because of that concreteness as well,
I suppose, doesn't it? It's definitely happening
because it's tangible. I can touch it. I can
feel it. I can hold it. Whereas, yeah, like you
say, when you say it, it just evaporates into
thin air. Well, how am I to know that, you know,
it's definitely going to happen because it doesn't
exist. I can see it, feel it. Yeah. And of course,
that's going to cause anxiety. And we all know
that anxious children are dysregulated children,
aren't they? I mean, God, we live our whole day
trying to... support that anxiety and reduce
that don't we in all things definitely I mean
no go on well I was gonna say I always use the
analogy of I see a flat pack furniture if I got
given a whole load of parts and pieces of wood
and a massive sheet of paper with just words
on I'd be like no I am not even attempting that
don't want to know but because it's got the little
picture I don't read the words I just look at
the pictures and build it easily It's true. We're
academic. We're, you know, we can read. And yet,
yeah, you're absolutely right. We look at the
pictures, don't we? Because it's easier to process.
It's easier to understand. It makes more sense
to us. It's more concrete. And even if we can
read the words, we can use the pictures to confirm
that what we've read is actually what it means.
And maybe they do the same as well. Yeah, definitely.
Yeah. Yeah, it does make, it makes a huge difference.
I harp on all the time about consistency. We
have got to be, if there's a particular behaviour
that we're talking about with a child or something,
we have got to be doing exactly the same thing,
saying exactly the same thing in exactly the
same way. It's got to be consistent, otherwise
it's not going to work. I always go on about
how we need to be using our visuals all the time.
We need to be using our visuals all the time,
even if they don't need it. When were you, if
I could say to one of my students, don't put
your coat on, and I know they're going to do
it when I've said it, but then they're not using
the now and next, they're not used to the rules.
So then when they do need it, if it's something
that they don't want to do much or they're in
a state of dysregulation, it's not going to work
then. Exactly that. So it works when you need
it. Exactly that. it's exactly that and it is
easy to forget isn't it when they just do it
oh they just did it I'm like yeah that's lovely
but what about tomorrow when we actually really
need them to leave assembly because that you
know whatever because they really need to go
and or they need to get out the swimming pool
and they don't you know what happens then yeah
swimming pools yeah I know they can leave the
group area they don't want to be there but let's
use it anyway because that's a really great practice
yeah that's it and they're on board now and next
that people like use this use this and also if
those now and next only come out when it when
they don't want to do something they will then
put the now and next with that negative feeling
won't they they will see it as this demand this
thing tells me i don't what i don't want to do
and i have to do it and that's when they don't
work that's when it then feels more like pecs
right that's they're not child led that's not
collaborative that's not supportive at all because
it only comes out as control and compliance really
is what it is and all these amazing tools can
be used in the wrong way if they if a now and
x is only brought out yeah for that sit down
be quiet get on with your work you know otherwise
you can't have this you know god i've seen it
that's the same lanyard could be used in that
sense but it can also then be used as come on
dude you know we've got this like the fire drill
thing perfect example you can have the swing
you can have the swing gotta do this and then
you can have this how exciting it's the same
visual but my god it's a different reaction it's
a different whole approach really isn't it yeah
absolutely yeah I just yeah my team must be so
bored of me but I have fun about it all the time
we've we've got to be consistent we've got to
be in them Yeah. And with that many adults as
well as seven, you know, seven adults. Yeah.
You've got to be, haven't you? Absolutely. And
I find it hard sometimes because I'm the youngest
in our team. I'm the one going, you've got to
do this. Let's change this. And everyone's just
like, yeah, come on then. But yeah. It's a weird
dynamic, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I started
at 22 in a special school and yeah, I had six
teaching assistants, all middle -aged women that
have brought up their own children. They'd worked
there for years. And, yeah, you come in with
these ideas. I mean, I also, they completely
dragged me through my first two years. Like,
I didn't have a clue for a start. But then you
have this idea and, yeah, you just, they just
trust you, don't they? It is amazing. But it
is a weird dynamic in your 20s to be managing
all these middle -aged women that, you know,
have brought up children. It is quite odd. It's
a really weird part of the role, actually, is
that manager kind of role, straight into manager
role, as well as everything else that it entails.
Yeah, it really is. And I find that quite a little
bit harder as well because I actually only work
part -time. So I've got my own children. So I
have Thursdays and Fridays. And I feel like a
huge pressure to make sure that Thursdays and
Fridays run as smoothly as Monday, Tuesday, Wednesdays.
It's so much harder when you're not there. So
is another teacher not there for the Thursday
and Friday? They kind of have their external
forest school. Okay. where they move around school
for different lessons. And I have another teacher
who kind of covers the form tutor role on those
as well. But that's the dynamic it is, two people
to approach it. And it's just working together
to make sure it's consistent. Yeah, it's huge.
Yeah, so I'm the Thursday, Friday teacher, which
is why I asked. Yeah. And yeah, it is really
important, isn't it, to be on the same page.
Yeah, something came up earlier, actually. We
do the same hello song, the same warm up, you
know, all of those kind of things. Well, I thought
we did. I think it's Chinese whispers over the
last few months. And one of the teachers, I was
doing the hello song, one of the teaching assistants
says, you do a different tune than him, you know,
than my colleague. I thought, do what? I thought
I was doing the same. And I think it's just Chinese
whisper changed over the last few months. And
I thought, oh, I better, you know, I better get
him to record it so that I could. you know tune
back into it because things just slowly evolve
don't they and if you're not seeing each other
teach which when would you you're relying on
your team to kind of keep you accountable aren't
you to keep both parties accountable it's quite
important actually it really is yeah and I am
so impulsive and reflective that I will just
like in the moment be like oh well that didn't
work let's try it this way or let's do this or
somebody's description let's mix it up and i'm
constantly like change which is the job isn't
it so then sometimes it's hard to keep that consistency
when i've changed it and then i expect so what
i've changed well in the moment it doesn't feel
like a big change does it because of course that
didn't work so let's just shift this it could
be lots of little things couldn't it but when
you're writing your email on the wednesday saying
everything that's happened and getting ready
for thursday think oh god that was actually quite
a lot that we just did there every single child
has got something to work on you know that's
quite a lot when you see it all in one big massive
email list in the moment it just feels like little
yeah little things that you've just made a new
symbol or you've just you know shifted how you're
gonna say something it just seems like little
changes but yeah yeah it definitely does it like
a massive list on the day that you've got to
send on a Friday ready for Monday. That's quite
a lot that happened, actually. I was wondering
about your attention autism as well. I get lots
of questions about attention autism. And as you've
got such great sessions, and it was what first
drew me to your account, actually. What are your
go -to, oh my God, I've not got an idea, what
are we going to do, grabbable things? Okay, I
love this because there are so many that are
so adaptable to whatever you're doing. Probably
my favourite pull out of your back pocket is
flower shape. Okay. Because you can pretty much
always find a bag of flower, some icing sugar,
some corn flour, depending on what you use. Wonderful,
looks beautiful, but will tie -dye your street.
Great, good to know. And my floor is now pink.
But it's lovely. It's a lovely shade of pink.
But then you just sieve a load of flour or powder
paint into a tough tray. And just that is beautiful
to watch. And it just flows. And you can shake
high, shake low. And it's lovely. But then within
that, once you've shook it all in and it's good,
you can draw anything. Like you can draw shape.
You could draw facial expressions. You could
do different types of weather. We've been doing...
balls so we've been drawing the animal and then
pressing the sound button yeah you need to do
I think life cycle uh once told the story of
the hungry caterpillar while I was drawing the
flower everybody was just engrossed so visual
isn't it it's so much better than just sitting
there going and there once was a caterpillar
yes it's a really nice way to do it and yeah
I love our show um that's so affordable as well
isn't it so easy I've always got shaving foam,
flour, bicarb in my cupboard ready to go. They're
the must -haves, aren't they? And laminating
pouches. Definitely. And velcro. I swear we could
be paid in velcro and laminating pouches and
shaving foam and we would be happy. 100%. Yeah,
definitely. Is there anything else? So they're
your stage twos kind of thing, aren't they? What
about bucket items? What do you put in your bucket?
I love my bucket toys. I'm doing a bit of a refresh.
I've just made an order for loads of new things.
So I'm so excited. Dancing Llama was one of my
favourite ones. Okay, a bit like the cactus?
Yeah. My daughter got it for Christmas and I
borrowed it for school. But it's basically just
this llama. You press it and it wiggles and it's
bomb shaped. Amazing. Something like that, like
children's toys that just move. Dancing robots,
dancing, yeah. They're always my proud pleasers
because we've got a chicken that lays eggs. Oh,
I've seen that. Amazing. I've seen that. It makes
a really stupid noise when it does it as well,
doesn't it? It's so funny. I used to have that
in my older room. I wonder where that's gone.
Yeah, it's brilliant. But then, like, it also
doesn't have to be big, expensive toys. blow
up a balloon and let it go yeah that's a fun
one as the dancing llama um party poppers party
blowers like the long ones so yeah it doesn't
have to be anything do you know what i've recently
discovered actually i've just remembered i've
got it called silly string oh that's hilarious
that's so fun they still do that where do you
get that from no i don't know it appeared in
my box I reckon. Amazon. Yeah. I quite like the
party aisle in Tesco. You know, like the little
things you get in your pocket. Love it. Party
poppers. Balloons. Paper plates. Like, what are
they? Like the clacker things with the balls.
And they're also cheap and little, aren't they?
They're perfect for the bucket. I just took them
in. Weekly shop is dangerous, isn't it? There's
always a few items in there that just kind of
sneak in. They'll love that. And how about storing
everything? You know, where do you keep it all?
How do you organise it so that you can find everything
easily? Because it's something that I've really
been experimenting this year. I don't feel like
I've cracked it. Yeah. So we're kind of, we're
on a journey with it at the minute. We're in
the process. So I'm quite lucky in my classroom.
I've got a lot of space and I've got two very
long cupboards. So one of my cupboards is like
all of my boxes. It's like curriculum resource,
everything else. Yeah. process of converting
the other cupboard into the attention autism
cupboard and because we've recently rolled out
autism more throughout the school so the vision
is that people can come into my room my cupboard
and I would like them to see stage one stage
three stage four and all of the resources they
need are there so we'll kind of have loads of
baskets with all the exciting toys all the stage
And then we'll have Rose with, you know, your
black barb, your sugar. Yeah. It's going to be
like a roll in order. So it's always stocked
up. And then obviously all the things that you
need for the stage. Yeah, great. All ready to
go. In a pack. Sign it out. Out you go. Put it
back in. It will make for such better sessions,
won't it? Because then the time and energy can
be spent not in putting it all together. Because
it does take a lot of time. But in the delivery,
can't it? It can be so much more thought out.
So often I think I do a stage three and I've
done it and think, you know what, it would have
been so much better if I'd had symbols or it
would have been so much better if I had this.
And if it's all in the pack, it's all ready to
go, isn't it? And you'll always have those things.
Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I just want to make it
as accessible as I can for everybody because
it can be like a lot of work to get set up, you
know, you've got to do the activities and you've
got to gather all the resources that you need
and tidy it all the way up. it can be quite daunting
to even think of the ideas as well whereas if
you've got a cupboard full of them you can think
oh yeah i forgot that one i haven't done that
in ages let's just do that whereas otherwise
you kind of go to the same things don't you and
it can become a bit mundane only not meaning
to be just for lack of you know creative thinking
and energy really yes absolutely inspiration
yeah yeah definitely i find myself quite often
Even me in this, oh, we saw this toy like a couple
of days ago. That's boring. Let's find another
one. It's keeping it fresh, isn't it? Yeah, and
it's so easy. If I buy a toy, then my students
are going to be as well. Exactly, and because
I'm only teaching, and I don't know if you find
this as well, on a Thursday and Friday, I don't
definitely know what they've done on a Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday. I know what they've got in
the bucket on a Thursday, so I know what they
did on Wednesday, so I know that it could be
different from that. But I don't know what they
did on a Monday and Tuesday. Maybe I should do,
but you can't write everything, can you? So even
if I choose the same, I suppose I'd do it in
a bit of a different way just because I'm a different
person. But yeah, maybe it would be good to have
some kind of like system of in and out, like
an in and out tray. We know what's already been
and we can kind of rotate that way. A bit like
when you refresh your wardrobe and you put your
hanger the other way when you know that you haven't
used it or you have used it. Maybe we need a
system like that. I like that idea. That's a
really good idea. Yeah, I had a cupboard refresh
this year. We haven't got a whole attention autism
cupboard, although it is taking over. I've got
two shelves out of four now of attention autism
rather than just the one. But we kind of did
all that, put all the Gretmull's trays in and
we've got one per lesson. And yeah, two of the
whole trays is attention autism. And that has
definitely helped keep me accountable. It's definitely
helped keep me planned and ready and organized
for the session, which has definitely helped
deliver it far higher quality than. When you're
just chasing your tail, just grabbing something
five minutes before, it's never as good. It's
always fine. The kids always love it. It doesn't
matter too much, but it's so much better and
more effective if it's planned, isn't it? Absolutely.
I am the least organised teacher you've ever
met. I run around, grab what I can. I'm so unorganised
and I try so hard, but it's just not me. I'm
just not. Do you find sometimes... They go surprisingly
well. When you just make up a song on the fly,
like you're literally already running the session
and you think, I haven't got a song for this.
You just kind of run it on the fly. Really? What
else? Pretty much every single stage I ever do
was looked out of my head 0 .5 seconds before
I started. Same, same. It's the familiar tune
and I'm just like, just make it. It's always
Will's on the bus, though. I need to get a different
tune. It's always Will's on the bus. Mine is
always, this is the one. yeah that's a good one
that's a good one yeah that is a good one for
attention autism especially I feel like that's
a good go -to because you can kind of put any
words onto this is the way so then what are your
other lessons looking like then so you said you
do sensory stories so you do attention autism
and intensive interaction what what do you call
your other lessons or or you know do you call
them what they are do you call them you know
sensory method or do you call them or do you
have english math science you know what does
your curriculum look like feel like and so we
we've kind of got a bit of a hybrid you know
we we're a secondary school every class will
get a timetable and so my timetable for my class
looks like english math rebound cooking art and
it's it's just the subject okay and we also have
slots for five hours a week so quite a lot for
communicating but that's kind of my baseline
and then I've got quite freedom of what that
even looks like yeah okay communication lesson
one week will be an intensive interaction lesson
it will be child -led play attention to them
it's it's really flexible within that yeah then
our English lessons will generally either a story
or a story hold through and attention autism
which yes okay yeah it's always we're always
linked on a story we've got a few texts every
after yeah and maths is always attention autism
because i think it just self really well yeah
i don't think many people do that i think many
people think communication english but it really
really does you're right bigger smaller on off
inside it works so well for math it works so
well so English and maths, we will do an autism
or the sensory story as like a whole class. I'm
thinking about like make sure you like input,
that's your class input. Yeah. Then we split
off and we workstations or tables and that's
where they'll do the more kind, some of them
are more kind of teach style training and some
of them will be that more focused like one -to
-one work, working on specific targets. So it's
kind of, you've got the input. And then they
do all work. But then we'll have art lessons.
Art lessons, it depends on what the kind of topic
is for the half term. Generally, we're exploring
text. We're exploring colours. Okay. I really
try and get my art lessons very kind of free
-flowing, child -led. Yeah. So they're exploring.
They're initiating the creativity rather than
it being, you're going to copy this or you're
going to copy that. over product absolutely I
always say to my staff at the start of specifically
art lessons and cooking lessons they're the ones
aren't they they're on the ceiling I don't care
if they've made a beautiful skewer with all the
fruit lined up I don't care if they've squinted
it in their hands that's great yeah I just don't
care about the output and what would at the end
it's the process isn't it art lessons will I'll
fill up a toast tray with farmyard theme or whatever
it is with all these lovely textures and i'll
play it staff will play with it and if they want
to come over and join in with it amazing and
then they're exploring that and some of them
might take a little more a little bit more coaxing
and some of our students that really don't like
the pressure of everybody's able everybody around
the tuesday will put it into a little trade for
them and take it to them but it's very much on
their terms um because I think just giving their
learning yeah especially with something well
any lesson of course but anything like art you're
not going to get your best work if you're feeling
pressured to do it I mean I certainly wouldn't
if I went into a classroom and someone said right
you're going to do this art and this way I'll
just be like I feel so much pressure because
I can't do that whereas if someone said oh here's
all the stuff choose what you want just have
a little explore this is what I'm doing you could
do it with me if you want yeah they're like That
would be so much more enjoyable. It's perilous,
isn't it? Perilous learning. Absolutely, yeah,
that's it. I once invited my mother -in -law.
She was staying up with us for a couple of weeks
and she used to be an occupational therapist
so she's really intrigued by what I do. And I
invited her into my classroom. She just really
wanted to see my class and we were doing cooking
and she came out saying... that wasn't cooking,
that was sensory play. And I was like, yeah,
exactly. She was going in expecting to do some
proper baking and stuff. It was very much like
squishing and rolling and smooshing and tasting.
Yeah, that's what it sort of is. But it did make
me laugh. That wasn't cooking, that was sensory
play. Most of my chicken leggings are sensory
play. You know, we do, I love how we do our cooking
at the minute because we kind of do the whole
process. So on a Tuesday in our independence
lesson, we write a shopping list. So we choose
the symbols. If it's something like, say, for
example, fruit kebabs, the students will choose
the fruit that they want and they'll get the
symbol and put it on their shopping list. or
if it's maybe further on in the year we'll look
at a recipe and we'll pull out the symbols for
the ingredients we need and put them on our shopping
list so that on the Wednesday morning we go on
the bus we go into the shop we buy the things
off the list and check them off And then on a
Wednesday afternoon, we come back and then we
cook what it is that we've done. It's so much
more meaningful, doesn't it? And then wash up
at the end. It makes it so much more meaningful.
It's real life, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. And
these are teenagers. We want them to be as independent
as possible. And even if they have a carer all
their lives or live in independent living and
have that support all their lives. What if they
can like write a simple recipe? What if they
can go into the shop and, you know, beep through
the items and hand over their card? You know,
how exciting. Just going on the bus and leaving
the classroom is so huge for our learners. It's
such great practice. It's almost the biggest
lesson that you'll teach that year, isn't it?
Is going on the bus, going into a shop, managing
public, managing yourself in public, coping with
all those sounds and sensory experiences and
coming back with something, cooking it, washing
up. yeah you know it's so important isn't it
so important it's the whole kind of real life
experience and yeah if they can do something
for themselves then absolutely why shouldn't
they it's so much better like since we're a primary
school and I feel like everything all our whole
base of everything is why are we doing this you
know what what will it enable them to do and
if it doesn't if it like then it seems kind of
pointless yeah doesn't it yeah I don't know like
why do we take them swimming well it's not to
teach them how to swim even though that's a great
skill it's really not it's about walking to the
place being safe on the road getting dressed
getting changed you know being in the environment
being with the public waiting for your turn it's
all one of those things around that and then
swimming is just a bonus we get to splash in
the water and it's really fun But yeah, it's
probably one of our most important and useful
lessons, actually, because it's teaching them
about life outside of the safety parameters of
home and school. Because we are very safe, aren't
we? I mean, God, the whole thing is catered to
them and the world isn't. There's not widget
symbols stuck on everything in the real world.
There's not loving members of staff and adults
that will... attend to every need and will try
really hard to understand what you say and will
accept you and love you no matter what that doesn't
exist in the world i really hope it does one
day but it doesn't and how wonderful they can
be nurtured in these safe environments and that's
equally as important but not to be too sheltered
and to experience the real world and and to get
used to how to navigate that as well when you
haven't got the widget symbols when you haven't
got the safety of an area that you always go
to or den that you always go to when you're dysregulated
you know what happens then it's really important
isn't it yeah a thousand percent I've got some
parents that say to me you know I don't don't
mind if they never learn to read I want them
to know how to ask for help or how to get on
a bus or get themselves home if they need to
like it's those important life skills and safety
skills that are so much more important than learning
phonics or like obviously that's important too
but not I don't think as important no I agree
You just reminded me of an argument I had with
my old deputy head, actually. She was trying
to take away a PSED lesson, so a personal, social
and health lesson from me and replace it with
maths or English. And I could have done it. I
would have just turned it into whatever I wanted
to do. But I felt it was really important. Like,
why are you taking away? That's probably one
of the most important lessons we teach. You know,
I get that in mainstream, maths and English is
really important. But in special ed... PSEG is
the most important. It's about independence and
emotions and self -care and all of those things.
It's so important. There's no point in them knowing
how to give money and get change back if they
can't actually go outside and get on a bus and
buy a ticket. If they can't actually have the
confidence and the social skills and the awareness
and the regulation to be able to do that, what's
the point of them being able to count change?
Honestly, there is no point, is there? And that
was my learners on that year I had. I was working
with 14 to 16 year olds and they were incredible
at math. Like incredible. We were doing age appropriate,
year nine math papers. They were just whizzing.
They could just do it. But they couldn't leave
the classroom because they were so anxious. There
was absolutely no way they'd be able to speak
to a stranger and be able to communicate that
they wanted to go somewhere. There's no way they
could be able to get off at the right stop. So
what's the point? Yeah. That's it. You've got
to get that first, haven't you, before we...
Yeah, you've got to do it progressively, haven't
you, in the right order? Yeah, and that comes
with time, doesn't it? Because there's new teachers.
I mean, I don't know what your teaching was like.
Actually, you did mainstream, didn't you? I did
as well. Did you do mainstream primary? I did,
yeah. I trained. I did the three -year primary
education, which I think is wild, but there's
hardly any sense. like there's probably like
a token session and dyslexia like not even anything
like yeah yeah it's wild um but I was so lucky
that I just got I didn't ask to and because I
didn't know but I was so lucky that I got put
into a SEND placement for my second year placement
and that's what made me want to be a SEND teacher
that was just it was beautiful and I was like
this is this is me this is it just felt right
so how long were you in mainstream before you
moved over and so Five years. Okay. However,
kind of penultimate year was lockdown slash maternity
leave. Okay. In school, probably four. Yeah.
But yeah. So you've nearly been in SEM as long
as you've been in mainstream. Yeah. Yeah, that's
it. Yeah. So yeah, I started. Did you always
know that you were going to move over? I did.
You felt it? It was that like, gosh, I've just
graduated. I need to get a job. And it was just
like, hey, the office is coming to me. Which
is good. Because you do just need that experience,
don't you? Absolutely. And I loved it. And I
was in, I started in year two. I taught in year
five for a little bit. And then I went back to
year two. And I always said, you know, I do not
want to teach key stage two. I am an early year.
Key stage one, the big ones, they scare me. And
then I spoke to my deputy head now. she was like
how would you feel about special needs secondary
and I was like the word secondary scares me but
like let's go for it and I had they working at
that kind of year one yeah early years level
anyway level yeah so it's kind of the best of
both worlds really like we've got older students
in our school we have different strands so we've
got such a variety of needs such a difference
we've got sixth formers sitting gtse's and that
got complex pml sensory it's very similar to
my old school yeah so it's a wild difference
and i am like do not do not put me up in sixth
form do not give me the big kids i do not want
to be up there early nursery rhymes and fairytales
yeah that's all the same i don't care how big
they are i don't care what age they are but i'm
a singer and i do dancing and i do puppets and
i do balloons And I do mark making. So when I
was put in this 14 year old, you know, year nine
maths thing, I thought, oh my God, I've got,
you know, I only got a, just got a C at GCSE.
You know, how am I going to do this? I mean,
you just Google it, don't you? But I'm very much
in my comfort zone now with the songs and the
essentialism. Yeah. Yeah. I actually, I had to
cover a GCSE biology class for a period of about,
it was about. five or six months I had to cover
this class and I was like oh my god like I did
I haven't done biology since my GCSE and so I
had to cover it but my complex need sensory head
took over and I took them play -doh and we made
models of the cells but they loved it right loved
it they learned so much and I do think that a
lot can be learned from that approach it's not
just for your complex needs learners it's not
for younger learners like If I went to a staff
meeting and they got the Play -Doh out, yes,
please. Sometimes I look around, I don't know
if you do, sometimes I look around the staff
training and think we all need fidgets here because
this is boring and it's long and we've been sitting
here far too long still and trying to concentrate.
Yeah, we need to get up and move around and do
a bit of a break. Yeah, so you're so right. We're
all sensory beings, aren't we? Some need it,
obviously, and rely on it. other people to help
them regulate more than most but we're all sensory
beings and we all have that sensory baseline
um I was speaking to um one adopter actually
on the podcast quite early on I think the podcast
came out this Sunday actually but it was a couple
of months ago it's just beautiful isn't she and
so so wise so wise and she was talking about
the difference between PMLD and PMBL so it's
profound and multiple learning difficulties which
is how you describe the children in your class
or profound and multiple barriers to learning
and she explained the difference as cognitively
they are academic learners they can understand
just as we can you know they're not at that sensory
level they learn at that academic level but their
barrier to learning is their physical barrier
maybe their body doesn't do what it what they
want it to do and then and that's their barrier
and often these people can look the same on the
outside so it can be assumed that they're not
as competent yeah and yet and yet you know they
need to learn in this more academic way and not
a sensory way but what she was saying was offer
both because actually if we're not sure if we're
not sure if they are an academic learner or a
sensory learner for them both There's no harm
in offering them the sensory multitude of things,
you know, a multi -sensory way of exploring.
And there's also no harm in using long scientific
language and explaining this alongside the sensory
things or using visuals to say along it. And
I just thought that was really lovely. She explained
it with a sensory story about the birth of a
star and she was using lots of scientific language
and it was all very accurate. But we were popping
confetti and exploring, you know, different things
and spelling different things. And I thought,
yeah, because that's assuming confidence, isn't
it? It's meeting all your learners where they're
at. And it doesn't matter where they're at. I
don't mind if they're a sensory learner. They
make no difference to me. I would love them and
teach them no matter what, you know. But I want
to make sure that I'm reaching where they're
at. I don't want to be patronizing, but I also
don't want to be way above their heads and not
meeting them and them being. bored and not feeling
like they're being heard it's it's a mix isn't
it and I feel like we're we're battling that
as special ed teachers constantly is are we doing
enough are we doing too much are we are they
understanding or are we patronizing you know
it's a constant flow of that do you feel that
as well 100 % like we can never fully know what
they do and don't understand kind of like where
they are in some cases so it's like you think
you've got to assume competence assume that they
can assume that they do know and if they do great
and if not you've scaffolded and got there anyway
so they've had all of the yeah almost offer them
everything offer them all the scaffolding and
if they can then great and if they can't it's
also great because they've got they've got a
lovely sensory experience out of it yeah and
it's the same with the communication isn't it
we offer all the types because they've got to
tell us they've got to choose what's the best
way for them so we're gonna offer them all and
you would never just say oh yes they use objects
of reference so we're only asking them objects
of reference i don't know if you get that in
your dms as well like oh we're thinking of moving
on to you know talking ipads or we're thinking
of moving on to symbols and we have been using
photos or whatever i think oh no no just Just
overlap it. Just use it is what I often say,
actually. Leave them doing what they're doing
and what they already know. Don't take their
voice away from them. But why don't you just
try this as well as that? But yeah, it looks
like it's almost spoken like a linear ladder,
isn't it? Yeah, it is. Yeah, when I first started,
I was really impressed from what I'd learned
just kind of on the job of you do objects of
reference and then it's on to symbols and then
it's on to this and then you see it. But actually,
just use it all. Offer it them all and they'll
tell you what they... Yeah, and they're so spiky
and all over the place and da -da -da -da -da
that actually, who knows? I had a child that
didn't seem like he was understanding object
of reference at all and we were trying sound
buttons, we were trying all sorts. And now he's
writing on a whiteboard and typing out what he
wants. You know, all of a sudden, it's just kind
of maybe he's kind of processed it or worked
out that he... Or we've worked out that he can
do it. I don't know. I don't know what's happened.
It just kind of... It seemed to happen overnight.
But it's only because those options were there
to him and we hadn't given that was ever a thing.
They were just there. I mean, it's great that
we've got 10 learners that all do different things.
So they're all there. Yeah. That was an on offer
to him. But that wasn't the expectation. It was
just modeled. It was just we were just using
it anyway. And attention autism helped for that,
actually, because we were writing on the whiteboard.
He was watching us every day writing on the whiteboard
and he learned that it meant something and it
meant something fun because often it. it came
with something fun after it yeah yeah i think
that's so important for us as all teachers but
like we're the facilitators we can offer the
resources we can offer the experiences we can
offer the communication but it's up to them to
take it and use it and yeah i wonder if mainstream
teachers i mean maybe you could answer this because
i've never been a mainstream teacher i did mainstream
training but always been special ed so i can
never answer this question but i wonder i always
just feel like a facilitator and not a teacher
i very very rarely Do I finish a session and
think, I taught them something that day. Usually
I'm just facilitating and finding out what they
already know. It feels like I'm just observing,
can they do this? Do they know this? Rather than
today, kids, we're going to learn this. And by
the end of the session, they know it. I don't
know. Is that a thing to do? Yeah. So obviously
every school is different. I only worked in one
mainstream school. What do we want them to know
by the end of the session? Like, that was the
goal. What are they going to learn at the end
of it? What are they going to know? How can we
assess it? It's very much that kind of rigid,
yeah. Whereas, like you say, I'm observing the
children. I'm saying, they've done this. They've
done this independently. Oh, I didn't know they
could do that. How did I pull those blocks? It's
very more, it's more child -led, isn't it? Yeah,
I think maybe that's what it is. Yeah, my aim
definitely isn't I'm going to use these resources
to teach them this. It's more I'm going to use
these resources because they're going to be motivated
by it and they might show me that they can do
it. It's more that. So you've got an idea of
this is what I might be able to, yeah. I'd like
to see, but it's up to them. I know they can't
do it in cubes, but can they do it with number
blocks? Like maybe they can. you give them the
resources to show that don't you yeah it is very
different and it must be really difficult i mean
it was a long time ago now i can't really remember
it must be really difficult for teachers that
are coming across or starting afresh because
it's such a different way of teaching we're called
teachers but it really is just facilitating and
observing and and learning your children isn't
it yeah i'm kind of using this podcast as cpd
actually like chatting to you all and all the
time all the time when we're chatting to everybody
I'm thinking oh yeah I need to do more of this
or I need to add on to this because we're always
trying to improve our practice aren't we I'm
just wondering right is there anything that you're
focusing on this year with your team to like
something that you are trying to improve and
and really work on so I think our biggest thing
at the minute is making sure that we're always
using the visuals the visuals and they're available
for everything and and just being aware of that
I'm also after listening to the the podcast about
the sensory stories I really want to develop
them because I've really resonated with the whole
you can grab a box of leaves you can grab the
things but actually is it meaningful and are
you in all of those senses and and the processing
time like I'm not setting time and I'll give
my learners an instruction and I'll wait But
in a sensory story, it's like, oh, the leaves
are falling down. Quick, look at the leaves.
You've got to get it round. Yeah, and even the
processing time after a story is something that
we're working on. Not just packing it up and
then moving on. We're so bad for that. And intentional
autism is bad for that as well. Pack it up and
move on. Let's just sit and just see what happens.
Yeah. What a language. If they do take four minutes
to process, like I think she was saying, that
one of her pupils did. what happens in four minutes
will they suddenly look up will they suddenly
yeah yeah that's definitely something we're working
on is is maybe assessing individual processing
times and working alongside that and using that
to inform our practice she was saying i did a
one -to -one with her as well actually more recently
and she said if you put something in their hand
and then they count how long it takes for them
to close their hand on it and that's their processing
time of from visual to body and so some of the
some of them might be instantly so then you know
some of them might be 10 seconds like we say
to wait but she had a girl once that did it was
four minutes wow and then she closed and she
said okay great now we know four minutes you're
gonna have to have this resource for four minutes
for you to process get your body working in order
to engage with this item and it was really informative
isn't it to know that about our pupils yeah yeah
i'm gonna try that yeah so that's our mission
then great i love it i love a bit of homework
absolutely homework for adults no homework for
children i don't like homework for children but
homework for adults i like so okay let's do that
then let and everybody listening as well get
your pupils put something exciting in their hands
or something nice and textured something that
wakes their palm up because palms are really
sensitive as well and just see just count and
let's and let's come back and find out and use
that to inform our practice yeah i love that
awesome thank you so much for everybody listening
when can where can everybody find your wonderful
ideas so most of my content goes onto tiktok
and that's kind of where i remember to post all
of my content i did I have got an Instagram page,
which I set up purely for one of my friends at
work who was not on TikTok and refused to download
it. Instagram just for her. But I do forget to
post things on there. So the TikTok is where
you'll find the most of it. Wonderful. Thank
you. Definitely go and follow her over there.
She's so inspiring. And yeah, follow her journey
as she builds on her TikTok and maybe Instagram
as well. Our final bed. Thank you so much, Chloe.
And I can't wait to hear about your children's
processing times. Thanks so much for having me.
Bye. Bye -bye.