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Hi, my name is Jordan. I am a special education teacher from the UK. I share my passion for

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everything communication, sensory regulation and fun lesson ideas for my classroom of disabled

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pupils aged 4 to 11. Each week I am joined by experts in the field answering your questions

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and sharing our knowledge and experience working alongside our beautiful young people. Let's get started.

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Hello everybody and welcome to another live. Today I'm going to be joined by Simon,

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Inclusion teacher who's an SEN teacher, a supply teacher. So I'm going to pop him on now.

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Okay, I was just explaining that you are a SEN supply teacher, is that right?

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That's right. I mean, I did start by doing mainstream. I still do a lot of mainstream,

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but I do delve into SEND and sort of intervention type roles, which is being really rewarding.

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And how have you always been in a supply sense of things?

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I mean, I started off as a Key Stage 1 teacher 25 years ago. I've had a couple of periods of supply,

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but my main passion for SEND came when I was working in early years. I was early

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year space leader at my previous school. And it was then I realized that the more you get it right

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for those children, our very younger children, the more it then sort of creates that knock on effect

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as they sort of go further up through the school. Yeah, almost like meeting it early. Those little

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niggly issues that could be passed off as, oh, they're just not, they're not ready yet, or oh,

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they'll get there, could easily be kind of pushed aside, couldn't they? But actually, they become

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quite big, exclusive problems, don't they, further on, and they only become further away from their

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peers or on it and have the impact on the wider school. Is that what you witness?

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Yeah, I think the children that we work with, our very youngest children,

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it gives a real sense of satisfaction that you're starting almost their SEND pathway

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if it hasn't been started already. And, you know, being involved with the, you know, the outside

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agencies, doing all the paperwork towards the EHCP, it's, you realize how much goes into it for these

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children. And when, you know, when the EHCP, when I first EHCP went through that I was a part of,

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I was really satisfied. But on the other hand, I wasn't quite so satisfied with how much money

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came in to support that particular child. Yeah, the work in comparison to the budget doesn't

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really add up, does it? Yeah, the amount that you get, and actually what you want to do with the

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money, it's not equal there at all. And I think there's a lot to be done in terms of ensuring that

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these children are either SEND, diagnosed SEND children with any particular neuro-type,

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or children who I think are emerging neurodivergent. There's a big sort of part of me

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that wants these children to succeed, because I myself, I'm not formally diagnosed, but I'm on

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the pathway to be seen. And I really want those children who do identify as neurodivergent or

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fully neurodivergent, I want them to have the same sort of, the sort of better opportunities that

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I didn't have. Yeah, so with or without diagnosis, we're talking about what are you actually seeing

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in the classroom and what needs do they have right now, you know, regardless of the why almost, but

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what are you actually seeing? And maybe whether it's autism or anxiety because of an experience,

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maybe a similar method of offering visual insufficiency regulation breaks, all of those

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things, whether it's autism or not, will support that child. I'm a big believer in that those

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inclusive neuroaffirming strategies, we sometimes think that they're just for those particular

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children, but actually they benefit everybody. The best example I can think of is, you know,

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we probably think of this as given sometimes, but the visual timetable, you know, that's key for all

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children. You know, there's children who check that first thing in the morning, they need to know

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what's going on. I think those strategies that we put in place are really, really, really beneficial

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for all children. Yeah, what I suppose if there's teachers watching this now and thinking, okay,

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yes, I have a visual timetable, what else can I do? What else would be worth my time doing for all

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of the children in my class? Do you have kind of like a top few things that you would recommend

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that everyone does? I think this, you could almost split it into sort of organisational things

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and then things that, you know, facilitate inclusion or access to the curriculum.

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And I also think there's another strand there, it's things that we can do to ensure that our

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neurodivergent learners, that their wellbeing is paramount. And I think we've spoken before about

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play, I think play is one of my biggest things that I have, you know, we have at our disposal

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to help these children and play for me is, you know, when I was doing my teacher training,

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we were all taught that, you know, play goes through that sort of, it's almost like a checklist,

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so the children play by themselves, they then play alongside, etc. But actually, I don't agree

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with that at all. I think that if children are neurodivergent, then they have types of play

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that maybe we may not have thought of. So I draw from Kerry Murphy, I think I'm a huge fan of Kerry

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Murphy and her research into different types of neurodivergent plays, such as, you know, you may

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have a child who may, we may see it as a repetitive behaviour, such as, you know, going,

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obviously wants to go on a slide, so going down the slide, or then going up the steps again,

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and they might say again, and again, and again, as they're doing it. But that, for me, those sort

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of types of play that may be, I want to say a bit out of the box, but it's not out of the box,

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because it's what the children are doing. And I think that those sort of play types of play that

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maybe we don't consider enough of, we need to do those, because it's almost that the children

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who are neurodivergent, they almost have a slight, dare I say a slight advantage here, because

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they have, can present with sort of special interests or fixed interests. And I think you've

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got a golden opportunity there to take that motivating and interest, and then feeding it

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into the curriculum, which I know is a big challenge that if you're talking to say plants,

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and you've got someone who's interested, say in, let's say fish, for example, or let's say plants,

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or whatever it is, the challenge is trying to feed that interest into what you've got to teach.

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And I think that's something that I think needs a lot of consideration.

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Yeah, maybe not even just in the early years. I feel like early years in nursery are better at

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that as far as mainstream goes. And the other years, I feel like it gets a little bit discrete

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after that. I don't know if you agree with me. I'm attached to a mainstream school too,

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which is my reference for that. But yeah, it is, you're right, it's their styles of play as well.

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So it might be their special interest in a certain topic, whether it's dinosaurs or cars or pets or,

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you know, whatever, and Lego, Minecraft, whatever it is. But yeah, you're absolutely right, it could

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be a type of play as well. So for example, your slide one is perfect. If they are interested in

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that kind of repetitive behavior, it's about also not just assuming it's just the slide, but also

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looking deeper into that. Is it the feeling of the slide on their body? Is it the imbalance? Is it

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the feeling of climbing? Is it the vestibular balance side of things? Is it watching things

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slide down? There could be lots of different things happening there that is actually feeding

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that enjoyment of it. And then we can kind of try and broaden that, can't we? So what other

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things can we do to get that same vestibular feeling or that same climbing feeling or that same

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dropping feeling and kind of trying to extend it that way? And that is one of my favorite parts of

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my job. And it's such a luxury that SEN teachers have that we have the scope and the time and the

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trust, honestly, from the SRT team of just saying, go with it, just go with it, just experiment

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with stuff and just see what sticks, you know. And I really love and sometimes what you think,

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oh, they'll definitely gonna like this. And then it's absolutely no, it's obviously not meeting

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whatever that their need is. And other times you kind of hit the nail on the head and you

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really capture their interest. It's really rewarding part of the job, isn't it?

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Yeah, I think one of the sort of shifts I've had is, you know, when you look at behavior,

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and I think the play that we've spoken about links with behavior, I think it's really important

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to talk about links with behavior. I think the biggest shift for me is I used to see behavior as

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you know, something that you have to manage something you have to put, you know, put

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all the consequences in place for. And I think, you know, you obviously do need boundaries, you need

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some form of consequence in place. But when I shifted my thinking to seeing behavior

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as that communication, communicating the feelings and needs, but coupled with that,

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you know, your example of the particular and prospective input of the slide. Once I started

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thinking about sort of sensory considerations, you know, that was a real eye opener for me,

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because even in, you know, mainstream classes now, I can see the, you know, the sensory need of

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children is you can see if you're teaching whole class on the carpet, you can see children who

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are craving movement. And I think, you know, with movement, that's the pinnacle of what we

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offer children. If there's anything, if it looks like things are a bit wobbly, or things are a bit,

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something's needed, then moving is the key to any sort of movement, whether it's, you know,

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fidget, I call them sensory tools, instead of just to take the novelty away from calling it a toy,

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and, you know, taking them outside, dancing, moving, those sort of things, that sort of shift

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to thinking about if a child showing that distress behavior, why is it that they're showing that

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distress behavior? Is it, I automatically think now, right, I look around the room and say, right,

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is it too bright? Are they near someone? Is it too loud for them? Do they just need to go for a walk?

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Do they just need to come and sit with me for a little bit? And you referred visuals earlier,

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and you know, the amount of visuals I turn out now, I just think of something, you know,

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little things that I think, okay, that's a visual, I might use it, I might not, but I think the

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freedom that we have in terms of being in the roles that we are, I think is quite something that

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you've got as a supply teacher, you have time now, just to think about things, you know, I thought

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about something on the way home for tomorrow, for example, but I had the time there to do it,

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and I realized, you know, not everyone has that luxury. Absolutely. So about supply then, are you,

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because the one thing that I love most about my job is that I get to work with my children for

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seven years, and you get, I get to know them really intensely in the families. And I feel like

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the downside to being a supply teacher is, do you actually feel like you get to build those

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really strong connections? Do you have enough time with these children and families to feel like you

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get to know them? Or are you just seeing problem? Oh, no, I wish I had time to fix that. Oh, okay.

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And then another class. Oh, I can see that I could do something there, but actually, I'm not going

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to go out and see it through. And I feel like I would personally find that really frustrating,

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because I can never actually, you know, fully get my hands into, you know, helping them. But I don't

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know, how do you kind of feel about that? And how does it work for you? I mean, I'm lucky at the

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moment that I'm doing the long term. But the long term position isn't as a class teacher is as a

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intervention teacher. So I work primarily with early years children. I look at things like speech

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and language, emerging autism, any sort of neurotype or anything that may need dressing,

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I have my own space that I set up for the children. So I'm very lucky that when it's longer term,

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that connection, those relationships are really, really key, and they can be fully developed.

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However, when I do day to day supply, it's so much more, it could potentially be much more

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trickier, because sometimes you only have those children for a day. But I know, I've trusted myself

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now in thinking, why take really take so much stuff with me, I take a whole big bag of, I walk

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in my big sainsbury's bag full of stuff that I need. And not all not always, I need them for

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that particular day. But I think this will need the sort of security. I have stuff there just in case

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one of my big winners from actually one of your things that you use, Jordan is your, your countdown.

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So I, it didn't make sense to me until after you sort of explained it so clearly that,

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you know, counting down the timer, going like from 10 to zero, you're not in control,

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you're not in control of when it's going to happen. You've got to go according to the timer.

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Yeah, the sound is in control of when that thing's going to finish. Yeah, exactly.

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And interestingly, you know, today, I did work with a with a one particular class today, and I,

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I have, I don't know why I've got it on on the countdown strip. I've got like three yellow ducks

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on there at the moment. I don't know why it's on there, but that's what it is. And I explained

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what it was and how it works. And I literally took them off as and when they were needed.

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And I explained that when the three ducks come off, we get to finish, then we're moving on,

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then we're stopping what we're doing. And we're moving on to the next. And you can probably see

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visibly seen that room that, you know, there's probably children in there who were anxious,

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possibly what their normal routine is. But that countdown strip is an absolute winner for me.

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And it doesn't always work straight away. Sometimes for my learners are

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their diagnosed SLD or PMLD. And it sometimes can take a really long few months of repetitive

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using that until they realize when I take the third one off this finishes and they can either

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be reassured by that or frustrated by that, whatever it is, you know, they are obviously

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understanding it, you usually get to know that they're understanding it when they start refusing

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to take that third one off. Because then you know, oh, you do know that this is going to an end,

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you know, but sometimes that can take a few months of practice. But yeah, once they do understand it,

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and some children do get it straight away, it really does depend. It's interesting,

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I have lots of comments on videos where I talk about the countdown saying, oh, that would make

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my anxiety go up, not knowing the exact time that's going to finish that would that would

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raise my anxiety. And it's really interesting, isn't it that we as people that understand time

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and what what two minutes feels like what one minute feels like would find will find that not

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having a set time really anxiety breaking. But lots of these children guess time, they don't know

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what two minutes feels like they don't know what five minutes feel like the sand timer is just as

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unpredictable as the countdown. But the difference is the sand timer stops when actually I haven't

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quite finished my puzzle yet. All right, this song isn't quite finished yet. And for somebody with

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autism, that not feeling like something's not complete or not completely finished is so

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dysregulating. It's actually the worst of the worst. I would always rather take a little bit

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longer and be a little bit late for lunch or a little bit late for whatever it is we're doing

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next if it means we get to complete the puzzle because then they're not dysregulated, they're

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regulated and we can move on. Yeah, the idea of using timers actually gives me anxiety now because

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I just think oh no, the only time I think I would use them and I actually recommended them yesterday

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for the first time in a really long time. And this is why I recommended sand timers. The question was

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a child is wanting a toy that another child is playing with. How do I get them to wait for their

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turn? I said, Okay, well, you could have two exactly the same sound timers and give one to one child

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one to the other and say when the sound time runs out, your turn is finished and your turn is starting.

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I think because again, it's the exact time actually is helpful. But apart from that, I think I would

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always want to be more in control and work alongside and collaborate with the child as to when

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that finish time needs to be you can kind of feel it in the room, which is why yeah, like you're

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saying I really do like the counters. I didn't create a counter on by the way, it's a teach method.

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So I can't take credit. But I do I do really like it. And it does it does really support lots of

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learners, especially those with autism. Yeah, another point sounds like I'm your salesperson.

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Another thing that you know, I took and it worked was your your green and red ovals for my turn

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and waiting. No, that was genius. When I saw that, I thought that's not I didn't mean to

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thought that's not going to quite work. But then I did it. And then I put like particularly with

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some groups that I take, I actually have my picture on my turn. When I'm playing with a

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particular group of children. But you know, it's so simple and so effective in the way that it,

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you know, it's color coded, it's visual. And you know, at some points, you know, you've got four

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children and an adult, each with these circles, these ovals, sorry. And you know, someone's having

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a turn with something, they, they move the toy on. And almost this ovals in the middle, if we're in

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a circle, they move around as well. And that's quite something. Yeah, and it seems so simple,

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doesn't it? Like, why? Why does that little bit of colored card make the difference between

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them understanding that their turn is coming up and not? I mean, I suppose, I suppose we're

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talking about autism a lot, but autistic learners in particular are so visual first. And as

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neurotypicals, it's usually auditory first. That's why we give instructions. That's why we use names

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first. That's why we're so chatty. But actually, for those autistic learners, it's all about visual.

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So that's why they like a calm environment and cluttered free. And that's why these visuals are

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so supportive, because they go visual first, it makes our language and what we're saying just make

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way more sense. So yeah, having even just the most simple tasks like wait and my turn, having it down

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as a visual does make a big bit of difference. And usually I use widget symbols, but particularly

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for the wait and my turn, I found yeah, just a green or red colored card with the text on on it

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is even more bold and obvious and even more simple to understand. And even my earliest of stage

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learners, it's helping them to wait and, and to teach it, you don't start by waiting 20 minutes

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for your turn, you very much wait seconds, and then with it off and they can have it and then you kind

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of build up from there just like everything you kind of, we call it backwards chaining. I don't

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know if you use that term as well. You kind of start with the end result and then work backwards,

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a bit like learning to tie your shoelaces is a really good example. You do all the tying for

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them and they just pull the two bows apart to tighten it. And then you go backwards. So then

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they might, you might loop it through, but they do the last little pull through and then they pull it

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apart. And by the end, you know, by the in a few months when you've been doing doing this, you

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backwards chain, backwards chain, backwards chain, they're doing the whole thing by themselves. And,

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and I like to do that with everything. Yeah, even the most basic tasks like waiting for your turn.

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Yeah. Somebody's asked if there's got a few questions, Simon, if that's okay.

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Yeah, go for it. Someone said, Hi, help. How do you make individual timetables work? I have 13

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children. I'm finding it really overwhelming. Have you had any experience of individual timetables

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and how to navigate that? So I'm trying to assume that, you know, the 13 children, I don't know if

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they're part of the mainstream class or whether it's a specialist. I'm assuming it's probably,

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well, let's assume that it's specialist provision and all 13 children need something a little bit

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different because that's quite common, isn't it? Yeah, you know, I've been in settings before where,

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you know, you've had a whole class of visual timetable, but that's not enough. I mean, I do

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carry around, here's another plug for one of your things, it's a little miniature timetable that you

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carry around your neck. So I don't know if you can see it, but this is my sort of adapted version

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of yours. And I have finished on the back of, I have finished on the back of it, stick them when

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they're finished with, but you know, that's not even enough for some children. It's almost now

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and next, it's good. Now next and then is also good. But I think in one of your videos, I think

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you had something in between now and next to motivate, I can't remember if that's correct.

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Yeah, so some of my class, some of my children are absolutely fine with just seeing what's next,

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and that's all they want to know. But I have a few particular learners that really need to see

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home time on their timetable. It's really important to them to know that the school day is finishing,

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and if it's not on there, they get really stressed. Because I think they assume then they won't go

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home. And then what happens then they'll never see their mum again, you know, let's not assume

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that they understand how time works again. And it's really important to them they see swimming on

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their home on their those key pillars of the data make Friday a Friday or make Monday and Monday,

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they need to see those all on there. So for all of my children that are able to access an individual

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timetable, which is about half of my room, I have a mini visual timetable just like our main class

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one with removable symbols on them. It's a visual so it goes from top to bottom. What is next is at

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the top and then going down and some of them go all the way down to home time. One of my children

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is about two meters long, because he needs to see every single step of his day from the moment he

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comes in to the moment he goes home. And we need to add a few little bit extras in there just to get

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him through to three o'clock. And it's so if that's a good way of individualizing the way it is

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overwhelming is because our whole system is embedded in everything we do. So in an English

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lesson, for example, we won't have English on the timetable, but we will have where we're going to

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English. I feel like that's kind of crucial for visual timetables. Sometimes it's the main class

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timetable in a mainstream room. Your children are perfectly fine with knowing what subject is next,

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and then next and then next and then next, because actually you only have one classroom.

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And unless you're going to the hall or playtime, and then you'd have those symbols, but they kind

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of understand that if it's a lesson subject, we're in the classroom. And then if it's the

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hall P, we're in the hall. And if it's playtime or outside, they understand that concept whereas in

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a special education room, often you'll have a sensory diet area, you will have a sensory room,

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you'll have tables, carpets, computer areas, you know, you will have all sorts of different areas

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in your room. So just calling it English doesn't actually mean anything to the children because

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English can look very much like science, can look very much like geography in a sensory classroom,

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because it's all kind of physical resources and things, doesn't actually mean anything. So for

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our main class timetable, I might have English, maths, science, but for the individual ones,

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it's all about location. So it would say something like snack table, computer area, group area,

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sensory diet area, playground, for example, might be English. And that's all the different places

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they need to go in the order they need to go to them to complete, you know, that round of lessons.

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And it makes so much more sense to the children. It doesn't become overwhelming, because it's either

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done right at the beginning of the day, we do it up until lunchtime or do up until break time. And

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then we add more. For some children, we do it as we go. The important thing is that when they take

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the symbol off of their timetable, what do they then do with that symbol? Because in the old days,

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we used to have a little box, I don't know if you remember this, Simon, a box or a bucket underneath

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each individual timetable, and they'd have a look at what the symbol was, and they'd put it in their

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bucket to say, you know, that one has finished. Actually, that is kind of a wasted opportunity,

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I feel, which is what we do in our classroom, is we take it off, and then we use that symbol as a

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reminder of where we are going. It's our transitional tool. And we walk with our symbol to where we are

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going to where it says on the symbol. So for example, it does say snack table on there,

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we will walk it from our table, from our timetable to the snack table, and then there will be a

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matching board on the snack table that we can match it to. And then when we've finished our snack table,

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the adult gives them a check schedule symbol to help them transition to their schedule. So it's

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kind of a little bit like a rotation, you go to the area, to the timetable, to the area, to the

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timetable. You've always got a symbol to help you transition to do that. Again, that is also a teach

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method, I cannot take credit for that. But it works really well. It keeps it very organized,

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all of the symbols should either be on their timetable or on the matching board. It means

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that they don't get as lost even sometimes they get chewed in between. But that's another thing.

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So I feel like individual timetables that that would become less overwhelming because

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everybody's doing the same thing and everything is quite structured in in that way.

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One sort of additional thing I sometimes put in place is, if you're talking about like a subject,

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if you've got subjects like English, Math, Science, whatever on the visual timetable, as you said,

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some children don't understand the whole thing. So sometimes with a subject, you need to break it

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down into the bits of the subject. So that, you know, if it's English, for example, you know,

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like today I had to break it down into, you know, one part we were doing like word work. So I had to

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do a whiteboard and literally write, sort of draw a picture of word work on it. Then I had to draw

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a picture of like the shared, we're doing shared writing. And then I had to do a picture of what's

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coming next. But some of that I even had to break that down even further, because sometimes for all

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children, sometimes if we take a step back and, you know, think about what we're asking children,

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you know, some of that overwhelm can be caused by, you know, the amount of stuff, I'm going to call

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it stuff, that they have to, you know, process in order to learn to achieve what we're asking them

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to do. And I think it's, it's quite something if, you know, you're personalising all these timetables,

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these visual timetables for children. And I think my solution would be exactly you, what you said,

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that these 13 children are all going to need some kind of their own personalised timetable,

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they're all going to need different things, you know. It's interesting that you said about,

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you know, the timetable going from, you know, vertical, I always do them horizontal,

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and I don't know why I do them horizontal. But for me, I've always done…

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It's not just going left to right, it's like reading a book, I can't imagine it makes too

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much difference left to right, as long as it's consistent, so they understand it's either left

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to right or up, up and down. I'd like to make some research on it, but I haven't read any research

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that it makes a difference. Well, you know, there's a comment,

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there's a comment I can see on the screen about, you know, something about what happens next and

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sort of those sort of behaviours that may come out or may be exhibited when, you know, transitions

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happen. And I think that, you know, transitions, that can be a bit of a sticky moment for a lot

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of children in terms of, you know, if they don't know what's coming next, then it could potentially

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cause stress, anxiety, it could cause, you know, all that sort of behaviour that you'll see is the

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iceberg. I was thinking about the iceberg, you'll see those behaviours, but it's thinking about and

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knowing what may cause those behaviours. So, if a child's, you know, hitting out, you know,

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those sort of behaviours that are happening at a particular time, it's taking a step back,

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like, why are these… why do you think these things are happening? And what can we do to

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help the child? You know, these children aren't… children aren't showing these behaviours on purpose,

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not showing them to upset people. They cannot regulate, they cannot… they don't always have

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the strategies available to them, because when they're in the moment of crisis, they can't access

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the memory part of the brain to remember what to do when these things happen. And because the

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prefrontal cortex has taken over… so not the prefrontal cortex, the amygdala has gone, the alarm

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has gone, as it were, the prefrontal cortex can't make a decision. So, we've got to think about what to do

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to help them. And you know that it's that age-old thing that the regulation has to come before the

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learning to a child, and actually we've anchored ourselves in that sometimes. If we're not regulated

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and children are not regulated, then you're not going to get learning. And I think sometimes,

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I'm going to say it, that sometimes we think about how that looks to others, so it may look like to

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our… no, our senior leaders, as it were, if the child hasn't done something or how the child

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hasn't completed the task. Well, I don't think there's anything in saying that, you know, if a

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child wasn't regulated, if something had affected that child, we could say so. We should say,

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this is what happened and this is what we did to help that child. I think that's what we should be

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saying. Yeah, and it's what kind of learning are we prioritising? Yes, there's academic learning,

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but there's also emotional learning as well, isn't there? And just because you're not writing

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things down on paper or just because you're not, you know, completing the upset work task doesn't

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mean that learning isn't taking place. I feel like learning about your own regulation and emotions

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and seeing that being modelled to you, seeing those emotions being named to you, learning what

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resources help you to feel calm, building that relationship with the adult and building trust

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the adult is also learning and that needs to be valued, doesn't it? If you look at, you know,

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the early years, you know, if you take what's called the primaries of early years, it's more

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social development, personal, social, emotional development, physical development and communication

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areas, I don't see why they get stopped at the end of reception. They should be in everyone's

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form for months as these children move through school because these areas are biologically

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driven. If these areas are not there, if they're not nurtured and developed, then things like

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literacy, numeracy, science, all the academic subjects, they can't flourish until these three

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particular areas and that the child's going to be ever-changing. They're going to be ever-changing

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in terms of, you know, a child may have echolalia, for example, and then it might change into

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something else, may change into sort of non-verbal communication. It's hard because, you know,

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it's having that sort of secure knowledge of child development and how that works because that's

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another key change for me. I didn't know that about child development on my teacher training.

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No, I wonder why we don't because we have to know what the next stage is, don't we,

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in the previous stage to know where we're heading? I agree. I think, you know, you look at, you know,

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babies, for example, you know, babies, they have tummy time and then, you know, as they get up to

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walk, the development that's happening is in their neck because they're having to lift their head up

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off the floor in to be able to walk and then the development from that comes through the shoulder,

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shoulder, elbow, wrist and hand, that for writing and I think, you know, we push children

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to write too quickly sometimes. We need to be doing all that gross motor provision. We need to give

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them fine motor development. We need to give them opportunities to go outside and run. We need to

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give them opportunities to develop that sort of bilateral coordination and by that I mean

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where we're doing things like taking cloths and we're dropping them over, we're moving our

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hands back and forth to activate both sides of our brain. If we add music to that, that's even

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better because we've got one side of our brain that's musically driven and one that's more

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language driven. So I think, you know, those three areas, those three sort of early years areas

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shouldn't actually just be early years areas at all. It should be actually the areas that we develop

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on. I think there's a big argument that when we think about writing, for example, like we always

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think that, you know, children have to sort of develop a tripod. Well, actually they don't. You

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know, a child can write by holding it in a, I still call it a fish grip, but it's actually called

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a pro-damp grip. Is it? I always call it a palm grip. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, if you

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see children holding the implement, the mark-making implement in a particular way, that gives us the

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clue to what's needed in terms of their development. You know, I'd say holding it in a fish grip or

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a fist grip or something like that. And we know that if they're not putting enough pressure on it,

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they're going to need things like, you know, like Play-Doh, they need to have a slide where they can

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activate both, you know, sets of hands. And it's those little things that I didn't know, I didn't

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know that at teacher training. I've probably only learned one within the past few years or so, but

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it's that sort of, it's almost that evidence-based, you know, people are very big on their evidence

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bases. And I think child development and physical development, all those other things I've just

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spoken about, that's really, really key to be able to justify to your, to people what you're doing,

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not that you should have to justify to what you're doing. You do, don't you? You do, it's true. I

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always also go back to the pyramid of learning. I don't know if you've seen that. At the base,

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it was developed by an occupational therapist, actually, not a teacher, but it perfectly aligns

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with what you're saying. At the base is basic needs, you know, sensory regulation, and it goes

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through as you work up the pyramid, everything that a child needs to learn to get to the top of the

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pyramid, which is academic learning. And I show teachers this and say, well, one of the questions,

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for example, on this chat is, why is my child throwing? Well, it could be throwing, but it

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could be throwing. Well, it could be they're just at, you know, this stage, and they need to develop

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their fine motor skills, gross motor skills, listening skills, attentive behavior skills,

374
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before they can sit and focus in your, in your lesson. It might be that, as well as what happens

375
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,320
when they throw, you know, what's the motivation behind that? What's the why? What sensory needs is

376
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:12,000
it meeting and all of those things? It could be where they're developmentally at, at the stage of

377
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:18,320
learning. They're just not at that learning stage yet. And another thing to add to that is,

378
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:24,240
you know, I, you know, I was speaking to someone the other day about schemas and schematic behavior.

379
00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:28,640
I haven't spoken about that probably since, you know, I first worked in early years, about 20

380
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,040
years ago. And it reminded me when you're talking about when someone was asked about the throwing

381
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:39,600
bit, throwing behavior, that potentially could be a schematic behavior. Projectory. Yeah, exactly,

382
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:46,640
exactly that. I feel like the schemas is a great starting point for understanding the why behind

383
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:52,960
behavior. Yeah, so if a child is lining up, why are they doing that? It could be, you know, part

384
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,440
of the schema. If they're mixing things, have a look at the schema for that, because it really

385
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,920
could give clues as to not only what they, why they're doing it, but also what they're learning

386
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,440
through and what the learning opportunities come from that. You were talking right at the beginning,

387
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:12,000
so perfectly about play and not using seeing certain play behaviors as behaviors to change,

388
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:17,680
but actually as motivators to get alongside them. And okay, how can we use this interest

389
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:22,560
to motivate them in play? Well, schemas is exactly that, isn't it? If a child likes to hide under

390
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:27,840
blankets, okay, right, how can we use that? What for their learning? What, where does that fit

391
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,000
in learning and into the curriculum? There's a really good book literally just called schemas,

392
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,960
actually, and it's on Amazon. It's bright yellow. You can't miss it. That's exactly the one I've

393
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:41,280
got. It's really helpful, isn't it? And it's actually Schemas in the Earliers, I think it's

394
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:47,600
called. And it goes through each schema and how it fits into each of the early years, you know,

395
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:54,320
headings and what it can look like. It's a really brilliant and easily digestible book that I highly

396
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,880
recommend. Like you say, not just in early years, not just in SEND, but actually for all teachers

397
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:04,080
to understand, or parents actually to understand their child's behaviours and where they might be

398
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:09,120
coming from. I mean, just to expand on your point a bit further, if we're talking about schemas and

399
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,360
using that to inform our planning, you know, it's not something like throwing, you know, I've done

400
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,920
it where I've seen children, I've got a particular child that does like throwing, not dangerously

401
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:23,200
but likes throwing. So we end up getting some of those, you know, like two litre Coke bottles,

402
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:28,560
lemonade bottles, and we did put the phonics on the bottles. And because it's what you can wipe on

403
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:34,080
and wipe off it, and they get the ball or get it on the throw, they just take the ball at the

404
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:41,840
particular phonics. And it gives them, it appears to give them the satisfaction that they need through

405
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:50,320
why is it needed to throw. And I appreciate that, no, trying to fit or trying to use a schema to plan

406
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:56,240
it can be quite difficult. But I suppose the sort of more, it's almost I want to say more out of the

407
00:38:56,240 --> 00:39:01,520
box you think, the more you're going to, the more creative you're going to come, the creative ideas

408
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:06,080
you're going to come up with, like your blanket, if they're enveloping themselves into a blanket,

409
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:11,680
you know, be daring, like let them go under a table, you know, give them a little den

410
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:18,080
under the table with some likely twinkly lights, or get some of that. It's like a stickable mirror,

411
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:22,480
it's almost like a stickable mirror that you can put under a table. Because I have a child that

412
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,960
loves going under the table. And that's their thing. They absolutely love, love to love doing

413
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:32,320
that. But I think, you know, it's almost we've got quite in our discussion so far, there's lots

414
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:39,680
of things like schemas, play, development. And that's what early years, I think that potentially

415
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:45,040
would work with not just early years children, I think would work with older children as well.

416
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:51,520
Yeah, I mean, I suppose I'm not the right person to comment on that. I mean, I think I agree.

417
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:57,760
But having only worked with in SEN, I have worked with ages three to 19. So I've worked with a huge

418
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:03,360
range of ages. But as far as mainstream children, my actual experience isn't there, I only did my

419
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,680
teacher training with in mainstream and then we've gone straight into SEN. But I'd be really

420
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:12,880
interested to know if any mainstream teachers have key stage one or key stage two teachers,

421
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:18,160
have you schemas to inform their understanding of their, of their learners or have used play

422
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:22,800
based strategies? I know somebody commented on this sounds like a lot like monster story. I know

423
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:27,760
you can get monster story secondary schools, and they're obviously quite practical and play based

424
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:35,600
learning. So I know it happens. It's just I wonder what it looks like in reality and what

425
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:41,680
teachers findings have been as far as learning goes and regulation goes. I'd be really keen to learn

426
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:48,640
that. There's a comment just I've just seen about someone said about child breaking things, and I

427
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:54,640
can't remember that comes under a schema. But I just think breaking things, depending on what it

428
00:40:54,640 --> 00:41:01,920
is, and if it's dangerous, then you need to do well, probably think about health and safety first.

429
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:07,040
But I have a, I had a child maybe a couple of years ago who we introduced,

430
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:12,400
which are the entry tools or fidgets in the class, you know, are very effective, but it seems to be

431
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:19,520
that any sort of like a stretchy thing that you could stretch and break, that child would just do

432
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:25,440
it. And the child was, I don't think the child was what was, you know, meaning in a sort of

433
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:32,640
unkind manner, you know, sitting there, you know, stretching, you know, a new one,

434
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:38,080
those little plastic noodles, as far as they could, they broke it, they pulled it in half.

435
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:43,200
So I don't know with breaking things, I don't know whether that's... Yeah, there is, there is,

436
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,200
well, there's a couple that it could be depending on how they're breaking, but there is a kind of

437
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:52,000
destructive kind of one working out how things work and fit together. I've got a student in my

438
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:57,520
class who loves puzzles and breaking things, and I feel like they're linked. It's the separation of

439
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:02,000
things and the putting back together of things. However, sometimes the break in thing doesn't

440
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,280
actually fit back together, but they're still learning that, right? But yeah, we've got a child,

441
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:12,000
any soft toy gets ripped, you know, at the seam. It's almost like they're wanting to work out

442
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:17,600
how it works. And also it's really satisfying because it goes, and it just feels good. You know,

443
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:23,520
I think everybody is a liar if they say that ripping things doesn't feel actually quite good.

444
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:28,960
So that soft behavior, but yeah, also really loves puzzles. And I find, I think that's quite

445
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:33,680
interesting there, the fixing and breaking. I can't remember what schema it is, but it might

446
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:42,080
be the connecting schema actually, that that's linked to. But I've also had the children that

447
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,600
are breaking things, but it's actually not the connecting schema at all. It's more the trajectory.

448
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:51,600
They like seeing things up in the air and then clattering down to the ground. And the aftermath

449
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:56,240
is breaking things, but it's actually the trajectory, the up and the down that they're

450
00:42:56,240 --> 00:43:01,760
actually getting a lot out of. So I suppose it's really looking at what they are doing

451
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:07,920
and what they are getting out of it and then kind of, and then putting it together that way.

452
00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:13,360
Sort of facilitating all of that. And just, I've had a thought, I just had a thought sort of like

453
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:18,880
planning and getting this all together in sort of manageable form for people in that, you know,

454
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:23,760
I used to, and I'm still used to as well, you know, when you plan, you have all these boxes

455
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:29,200
and grids to fit in. I remember that's all my last year of school in sort of early years, full time,

456
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:34,720
is that one of my small display balls, I ended up just putting white paper on it and tacky backing

457
00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:40,800
it all over. And like key children, I'd have a coloured pen for those particular children

458
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,920
and I would initial them so that they would know, no one would know who it was about. But

459
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:50,560
I ended up using my display balls as, you know, the sort of conversations that we're having.

460
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:58,800
So if one of my adults, for example, said that this particular child was repeatedly getting

461
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:03,680
blocked and making that particular sort of form with them, we make a note of that. So then we

462
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:08,480
thought tomorrow, then we think tomorrow we have the same, or do we add something to it? So then

463
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:13,920
you just have it all up there and then we take a photo of it at the end of the week. But this were

464
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:19,840
our own personal records and it's quite a fluid way out of planning because you're not,

465
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:26,240
you find, I find on supply, you are planning, you know, planning for you. I look at it and I have to

466
00:44:26,240 --> 00:44:32,000
sort of think about how it works and then mine's sort of like a bit of glitter, I find a personal

467
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:38,080
glitter throughout it to make it how I want it to be. But I'm just thinking that this sort of,

468
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:44,800
almost this special interest or thematic planning, I mean, we probably do it in our heads more than

469
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:50,720
anything, but I'm just, if you want it more organised or you want it, you know, you just want

470
00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:56,400
to see the process through. If you're lucky enough to have a small display board in your room,

471
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:02,400
there's nothing on it, just tack your packet over and get your colour whiteboard, if you've got any.

472
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,920
And just, you know, have it, you sort of be wild with, you know, putting your little, you know,

473
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:13,760
your notes on there, your, it's for the benefit of the children, I think.

474
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:20,080
It would be a lovely way of including your supporting adults in that workout as well,

475
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:26,240
wouldn't it? Almost getting them on board, because also, if it's all in your head, then you could be

476
00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:30,800
having one agenda, but then your supporting adults have got another agenda and then things

477
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:35,520
don't really match up. So if you've got it really out there, visual, in the classroom, you're all

478
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,840
adding to it and then you can maybe come at it, you know, when you have a meeting or whatever,

479
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:44,080
and see what you've got and kind of come pick out bits together. Okay, well, how can we do that?

480
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:48,960
Okay, what do you think this means? How can we get that working in the classroom? It could be a really

481
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:56,160
lovely starting point for teamwork and building those strategies as a whole. And then ultimately,

482
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:00,960
then they're actually going to happen, aren't they? Because everyone's on board with it and you've

483
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,000
feel like you've come up with it together. Therefore, you feel a little bit more committed

484
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:09,440
to the cause, maybe. Yeah, I think that it brings, it brings that shared ownership

485
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:16,400
or the provision, you know, the, you know, it's valuing what people say, it's bringing it all

486
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:22,960
together. It takes a lot of work, because, you know, getting the process up and started and like,

487
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:27,920
you know, getting sort of fluid with it and then making the time to talk about it. But you have,

488
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,760
I think you have those conversations quite naturally, at the end of the day, anyway,

489
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,600
you talk about things that happened during the day, or you talked about things that may not have

490
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:41,840
gone so well, but it's almost an actual extension of that. And I think that it's almost, you know,

491
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:48,480
you're sort of reviewing your provision, what's worked, what hasn't worked, what can we add to it,

492
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:53,440
what needs altering? It's that sort of adaptive teaching, I think, is sort of being adaptive. I

493
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:58,400
think that's more the sort of where I'm coming from now. It's rather than, rather than sort of

494
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:03,040
that, that, the model of differentiation, when you're going, I'm planning this for the higher

495
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:09,280
achievers, this for the lower achievers and whatever, is what can you do to ensure these

496
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:14,080
children have access to the curriculum, whether it's things like, you know, we actually haven't

497
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:21,120
talked about yet, things like, you know, flexible seating, which I thought was a bit silly, that

498
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:26,560
sort of flexible seating. When I first heard about it, when I started doing it, though, I,

499
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,680
well, that stopped me straight away. I really, really did see, you know,

500
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:36,160
I'm quite new to the whole flexible seating thing. I've used a couple of things in my room,

501
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:42,800
and mostly just wobble cushions, though, for those, like, rockers. And then in the past,

502
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:49,280
I had an OT prescribe an exercise ball, like, within a chair for a child, but that's really,

503
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:53,360
is it. So can you describe to me what kind of flexible seating you're using and what kind of

504
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:59,520
impact it's had in your room? So with flexible seating, you know, I'm thinking particularly,

505
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:04,320
you know, when it comes to, it's either carpet, if you're doing whole class teaching, or

506
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:09,440
when they're, when the children are working, I think when it comes to whole class teaching,

507
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:15,120
you know, some children, actually, some adults would think, you know, if children sit on a chair

508
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:20,400
where they should be, should be sitting on the carpet, that's unfair. Well, actually, it's not.

509
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:24,800
If the child needs to sit on a chair, they need to sit on a chair. And if it's still, if they're

510
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:30,000
fully focused and engaged in what they're doing, I think that's absolutely fine. I'm a big fan of

511
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:39,760
putting the gym bands on the bottom of the... I actually have one at the moment, which I'm

512
00:48:40,720 --> 00:48:48,960
using. I find that very therapeutic, doing that. I sometimes have the most, you know,

513
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:54,800
the most sort of way out there, one I've had is, you know, those things you go swimming with, what

514
00:48:54,800 --> 00:49:01,120
they call those big, like foam noodles. Oh, the noodles, yeah. I sort of chopped one in half,

515
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:09,600
and then super glued it so it made a circle. And I had it on the carpet for a particular

516
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:15,120
reason. I didn't know the word for it, but I would love to. Is it just like a, I guess it feels like

517
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:20,080
a kind of hug in a way. It gives them that proprioceptive, like, this is where I am sitting.

518
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:24,480
I suppose the carpet is a little bit of too open space, isn't it? Whereas that kind of,

519
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:30,400
it hugs them in that set spot, I suppose. I've done that in a slightly larger scale. I use a

520
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:38,080
tractor tire as seating. I put some cushions in the hole of a tractor tire, and a student sat in

521
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:44,720
that on the carpet. Again, just to feel that hug kind of grounded feeling, because otherwise,

522
00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:49,920
they just wouldn't settle. They couldn't settle in the space. They used to have a tractor tire,

523
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:54,480
and it just kind of used to kind of, yeah, just ground them in a way. And then they were quite

524
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:59,440
happy paying attention for a long time, just because they could settle into their bodies.

525
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:05,760
I think also, think, if you extend that a bit further and think about, well, actually, you know,

526
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:12,800
how we're working. So children don't always have to sit down at a table to be able to,

527
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:18,320
you know, take part in the learning. When I think about standing up, having the paper on the wall,

528
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:24,400
children standing up, children lying down on the floor to be able to work. And, you know,

529
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:29,360
I've also had like, you know, a big yoga ball, child sitting on the yoga ball, and they're quietly

530
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:36,640
bouncing up and down while they're working. It's not distracting. It's not noisy. But I think,

531
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:44,160
I think the flexible seating for me is guided by what I can see the children doing. So if I see a

532
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:51,840
child moving, then I think they need something different. So if it's a chair, if it's, I've seen

533
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:55,360
those wobble stools. I've never had one in the class.

534
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:59,280
No, I haven't either. I know a child in my class would need it though. At the moment,

535
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:04,080
she's really rocking on her chair right back and right forward, right back. And I think,

536
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:08,160
right back and I think, oh my goodness, you're gonna hit your head. As soon as I put this wobble

537
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:12,560
cushion, which I think does the same job as a wobble stool, to be fair, it's like a pumped up

538
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:18,560
balloon like spiky circle. Lots of schools have them somewhere in the cupboards. Pop that under

539
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:23,760
her, all of a sudden she can wiggle and wobble on that, but the chair legs stays on the ground. So

540
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:28,800
she's so much safer. And I think because it's spiky, so she doesn't need to rock quite so much

541
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:34,160
to get the same input. So yeah, you're exactly right. It's about seeing what are you seeing?

542
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:39,040
Are you seeing jumping kind of motions or then they might need an exercise ball? Are you seeing

543
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:43,520
standing up and walking around and wandering to get a water bottle every few seconds? Then they

544
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:48,960
might need some kind of standing up situation or more movement in their learning situation. Yeah,

545
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:53,440
are you seeing floor like rock, you know, when they just lay back all the way back down and their

546
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:57,360
bottoms are nearly on the floor, they're kind of, they're so far off their chair. Well, yeah,

547
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:02,800
do they need to just be sitting on the carpet? It's exactly that, isn't it? And then being prepared

548
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:08,560
for if children say, well, that person's doing that, why can't I, which I can imagine lots of

549
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:13,840
mainstream teachers are thinking, well, yeah, that's definitely going to happen. Having that equality

550
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:20,320
versus equity conversation in your head, ready, right up your sleeve, ready to go to explain,

551
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:27,120
you know, however you want to explain equality versus equity and why one child may need something

552
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:33,920
that another child doesn't. But also, we were speaking a couple of weeks ago on a live about

553
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:38,800
maybe, how do we know that they don't need it? They might be masking to the high heavens. Maybe

554
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:43,840
they would genuinely benefit from being on the floor as well or standing up as well. Let's just

555
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:49,040
assume competence, let's try it. And if it becomes too distracting, it's clearly not working,

556
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,880
then we can have a conversation with them and say, do you think that helps you focus? Do you

557
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:57,440
think that helps you learn? Yeah, I don't either. Let's try something else. I feel like children

558
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:03,360
are pretty good at that, but they might want to just try it. They might not know what it feels

559
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:08,400
like in their bodies. So assuming competence is always a good idea, I would say.

560
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:13,360
There's a question there that actually follows on from what you said, that how would you explain

561
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:21,200
that to other neurotypical children? And interestingly with that, I think one of the

562
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:28,640
best ways of explaining things to all children, I think there's been a big increase in terms of

563
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:36,160
particularly like picture books, storybooks that feature children who are neurodivergent. And I

564
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:43,040
use those quite a lot on my travels. And children are very inquisitive about it. There's one book

565
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:49,920
I read by a lot called When Things Get Too Loud. And it's about a child who finds everything too

566
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:55,840
loud. It's sparked a lot of discussion because children were saying things like the dinner hall

567
00:53:55,840 --> 00:54:01,280
is too loud, or it's loud outside, it's loud at the playground and so on. And I think that

568
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:08,560
I find that picture books and storybooks are a very powerful way of explaining things

569
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:17,680
like that to all of them. And sometimes I have the sunflower lanyard there because I have anxiety.

570
00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:24,000
I hate being on the train, having lots of people on there. It gives me a lot of anxiety. And

571
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:30,800
when I relate it to myself and the experiences that I have, children generally, even really

572
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:39,040
young children, they don't laugh at it. They don't dismiss it. They're okay. They're quite

573
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:45,360
understanding of it. Yeah, I feel like lots of children would be. It's more inquisitiveness

574
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:50,640
than judgment, I would say, with children. I think judgment is learned. I think inquisitiveness is

575
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:55,920
just a natural thing with children. I saw an idea on TikTok of how to explain it, which I thought

576
00:54:55,920 --> 00:55:01,840
was really clever, actually, and any class could do this. She put a whiteboard pen quite high on

577
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:07,360
the whiteboard and asked the smallest child in class to reach it for her. And they couldn't

578
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:11,760
because they were short and the pen was quite high. And she said, Yeah, I shouldn't have asked

579
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:16,800
you to do that. So sorry, and then asked one of the tallest children in the class to reach the pen.

580
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:21,440
And obviously they could. And she said, See, like it wasn't that the child didn't know what I was

581
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:26,080
asking. It wasn't that they weren't trying hard enough. It was just unfair of me to ask them to

582
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:31,920
do that in that way. This person is really great at something else, but they're not great at getting

583
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:35,760
the pen from a really high board. And that's okay. That's my fault. That's not their fault.

584
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:41,440
Just like sometimes, children are brilliant at sitting on their chairs and getting with their

585
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:46,240
paperwork and other children aren't. And that's unfair for me to ask you to do that. I just need

586
00:55:46,240 --> 00:55:49,760
to find a different way to do that. And I thought, what a simple, beautiful way of explaining that

587
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:56,400
visually for them to see that everyone is accepted as that you're not picking your pointing fingers

588
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:01,360
of who's neurodivergent, who's not the children can work out that out for themselves. But it's

589
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:06,720
just that, you know, we're all different. We all need different accommodations. And that's what

590
00:56:06,720 --> 00:56:11,920
equity is. This child needs sunglasses on in the classroom. This child needs the lights off this

591
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:17,680
child can't cope with music on, etc, etc. I suppose the tricky thing is, is when you've got lots of

592
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:22,240
different needs in your room, and how to manage all of those, I suppose it's just really, it's

593
00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:27,760
carefully and picking your moments, isn't it? And trying to embed a really honest environment in your

594
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:32,320
room, where they can feel like they can be honest about when they're struggling. And you can have

595
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:37,840
those conversations either individually or together and work it out as a class. I think that's right.

596
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:43,840
I think you've got to be, it's almost you're safe, how it is and allow, you know, children will say

597
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:50,000
inquisitive things. And it's, you know, it's what you do with it. As the teacher, you know, I equate

598
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:55,120
it with things like, you know, when we talk about inclusion, I think a lot of the time we talk about

599
00:56:55,120 --> 00:57:01,520
send when it's inclusion, actually, inclusion just isn't send, you know, you link it to gender,

600
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:07,200
you link it to race, you link it to your sexuality, you link it to all of those things. And I think

601
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:12,720
it's, you know, it's bringing that conversation to the fore depending on what's coming from the

602
00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:19,680
children. I think it's really important that, you know, we are, we talk about representation,

603
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:26,240
we talk about diversity, we talk about how we are built from our lived experience. I think that's

604
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:31,760
really powerful. Yeah, absolutely. Somebody has asked, you mentioned earlier, our older children,

605
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:36,480
I see a lot of mainstream schools where school uniform is a must and schools are really strict

606
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:40,560
on this, even when a diagnosis is there. And I feel like this question could be a lot of things,

607
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:46,640
it doesn't have to just be uniform, but it's any kind of unrealistic expectation. And it comes down

608
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:51,600
to I think it's a really great topic to finish on is reasonable adjustments. I feel like maybe

609
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:58,000
lots of this conversation about inclusion in class is about reasonable adjustments, you know,

610
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:04,400
what can we shift really easily and reasonably to support all learners in our classroom, whether

611
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:08,960
that be visual timetables, as you were saying at the beginning, whether that be using a timer,

612
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:13,600
whether that be using an hour next board, whether that be changing your seating, having movement

613
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:19,120
breaks, all of these things are very reasonable adjustments that you can make for a child,

614
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:24,000
not wearing your shoes, wearing jogging bottoms instead of uncomfortable uniform trousers,

615
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:29,200
having your buttons undone, not needing a jumper, leaving your coat on with a hood, I don't know,

616
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:33,680
whatever it is, sometimes they're unreasonable, sometimes it's not needed, but sometimes it's a

617
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:38,000
reasonable adjustment. And that can change for a child to child, it can change day to day, minute

618
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:42,320
by minute, a child that didn't need to wear their coat yesterday might need to wear it today because

619
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:46,560
it's something that's happened in the morning or something they're going through, they're not

620
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:52,000
feeling well, whatever. So it's just all about those reasonable adjustments, isn't it? And making

621
00:58:52,000 --> 00:59:01,200
that decision as a class in that moment. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, in response to this question that

622
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:06,400
I think, you know, some people might not see it, but you know, like a school uniform, you know,

623
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:12,640
with a tag at the back to be, you know, causing such irritation for our child or, you know,

624
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:19,520
the colour of the jumper or, you know, the feel of the material. I think I find it sad that,

625
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:25,920
you know, if some schools are really strict on those things when actually they're little things.

626
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:31,680
Yeah, yeah, I think schools are so up on this is the way we do things, we don't want to get out of

627
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:37,440
control because we want to be proud of our school and we want to look respectful and ready for

628
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:42,560
learning. But in doing so, by not having those reasonable adjustments, you're not actually ready

629
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:47,520
for learning at all. In fact, you're only thinking about that label in the back of your jumper,

630
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:54,400
aren't you? Or the seam in your socks or whatever it is. So it's about thinking beyond whole school

631
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:59,440
and thinking about that individual and ultimately thinking about what's the main goal here. We're a

632
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:06,480
school, we're here to educate and for children to learn and feel safe and to learn. It is not a

633
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:13,920
conform place. It's not a place to learn how to behave and conform. It is about learning and

634
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:19,200
thriving, isn't it? And I feel like it's really important to remember that day to day when we're

635
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:24,160
having these kind of conversations, isn't it? Yeah, that regulation has to come first before

636
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:30,080
learning happens. That's as simple as that. Yeah, I completely agree and I'll die on that hill

637
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:35,680
until you will as well. Thank you so much for joining me this evening, Simon. This has been

638
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:40,800
such a joy. I knew it would be and we've covered a lot of things, re-inclusion and things. And I

639
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:46,320
think with all my guests, I try and take something from this into the next week for my own practice

640
01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:51,120
as I'm speaking to such experts every week. And I think for me, it's that reminder that actually

641
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:55,520
there is a lot to gain from learning more about early years that we can take into our practice

642
01:00:55,520 --> 01:01:00,240
and using those fundamental pillars from early years through play and communication,

643
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:06,400
these personal, social skills and physical is a really great starting point. And I'm going to

644
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:10,720
take that into my practice this week and kind of use that with my team. So thank you for that.

645
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:15,120
There's no coincidence why it's called the Early Years Foundation State. It provides the

646
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:21,120
foundation for children in their school life. It's simple as that. Yeah, that's right. Yeah,

647
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:25,440
it's exactly right. And I think it's a really good reminder to keep coming back to that and not

648
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:29,280
forget what's happened in the foundation because it's there for a reason. And it's actually a

649
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:37,200
really brilliant curriculum, isn't it? It allows you a lot of flexibility. And if you follow

650
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:44,560
particularly the Birth to Five Matters curriculum, that one for me is my preferred one. It contains

651
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:53,920
so much other stuff to do it as well related to inclusion, related to lots of other things.

652
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:58,400
Definitely recommend have a look at Birth to Five Matters. Amazing. I'll get on that. Thank you so

653
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:15,360
much, Simon. Thank you so much. And I hope you have a lovely weekend. Thanks, Jordan. Thank you.