WEBVTT 00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:09.580 Hey there. Welcome to Data Democracy, a podcast 00:00:09.580 --> 00:00:12.980 where we explore ways to make data and AI more 00:00:12.980 --> 00:00:15.980 accessible to everyone. I'm really excited about 00:00:15.980 --> 00:00:18.699 today's guest. We have Christopher Chin joining 00:00:18.699 --> 00:00:23.120 us. Chris is a communications coach, data storyteller, 00:00:23.260 --> 00:00:27.019 and a TEDx speaker, and someone who's doing really 00:00:27.019 --> 00:00:30.519 important work for people in data and tech. He 00:00:30.519 --> 00:00:37.619 focuses on A problem a lot of us know too well. 00:00:37.960 --> 00:00:41.320 Super smart, technically strong people with great 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:44.420 ideas, but the ideas don't always land because 00:00:44.420 --> 00:00:47.399 of communication. I've actually been following 00:00:47.399 --> 00:00:51.219 Chris's work for a couple years now, and we've 00:00:51.219 --> 00:00:53.979 exchanged a few messages on LinkedIn over time. 00:00:54.780 --> 00:00:57.659 The work he's doing is something that I personally 00:00:57.659 --> 00:01:00.899 relate to. English is not my first language, 00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:03.920 and growing up in India with British. version 00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:07.099 of English. I still spend a lot of time second 00:01:07.099 --> 00:01:10.040 -guessing the words I use. I've always admired 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:13.180 the simplicity and the directness of communication 00:01:13.180 --> 00:01:18.200 here in the US, but so his work really is helpful 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:22.760 to me personally. Chris is the founder of Hidden 00:01:22.760 --> 00:01:26.019 Speaker, where he helps people turn great ideas 00:01:26.019 --> 00:01:31.319 into insights and messages that actually land. 00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:35.000 This is only becoming more important as the world 00:01:35.000 --> 00:01:39.579 of AI is taking over, and AI does all the heavy 00:01:39.579 --> 00:01:43.719 lifting in terms of coding. So we're going to 00:01:43.719 --> 00:01:47.620 talk about communication as a real skill, storytelling 00:01:47.620 --> 00:01:52.400 with data, building trust and consensus, and 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:55.959 of course as TEDx experience, and just basically 00:01:55.959 --> 00:02:00.030 what it makes to... take your great idea and 00:02:00.030 --> 00:02:03.010 make it land. So Chris is grounded, he's amazing. 00:02:03.129 --> 00:02:05.989 We're going to have fun. Chris, welcome to Data 00:02:05.989 --> 00:02:08.610 Democracy. Thank you so much, Vin. Really appreciate 00:02:08.610 --> 00:02:15.030 it. No, I'm so grateful to have you on. I know 00:02:15.030 --> 00:02:18.490 we've been talking to each other for a couple 00:02:18.490 --> 00:02:21.530 of years over LinkedIn and other places, but 00:02:21.530 --> 00:02:27.770 I'm super excited. Likewise. Awesome. Yeah, let's 00:02:27.770 --> 00:02:32.129 start with your story, your path in tech and 00:02:32.129 --> 00:02:35.389 founding your company. But where did you get 00:02:35.389 --> 00:02:37.729 started? And tell me your story. Absolutely. 00:02:38.229 --> 00:02:41.889 My career journey began away from tech. Before 00:02:41.889 --> 00:02:45.830 that, my focus was on music composition. Totally 00:02:45.830 --> 00:02:49.289 different from what I eventually became. But 00:02:49.289 --> 00:02:54.139 at my core, I'm a creative person. I'm an experimental 00:02:54.139 --> 00:02:56.680 person. I like brainstorming. I like seeing different 00:02:56.680 --> 00:02:59.699 creative ways to bring things together. And music 00:02:59.699 --> 00:03:02.060 was a perfect outlet for me to express that. 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:05.659 Of course, music is also a difficult career to 00:03:05.659 --> 00:03:09.219 break into. You need to not only have the talent, 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:12.020 but also the connections to elevate yourself 00:03:12.020 --> 00:03:16.319 and make the big films and short films and soundtracks 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:18.680 that you want. So it wasn't as successful for 00:03:18.680 --> 00:03:21.300 me as a career because I was super introverted 00:03:21.300 --> 00:03:24.300 and shy. When I went into tech, I thought it 00:03:24.300 --> 00:03:27.219 was a perfect fit because now I found a career 00:03:27.219 --> 00:03:29.680 where there were many people like me, many people 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:31.719 that were also shy and introverted, that focused 00:03:31.719 --> 00:03:34.680 on the technical stuff. I felt perfectly at home. 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:37.439 But what I soon began to realize was communication 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:40.560 was essential here too. That we could have phenomenal 00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:43.680 technical work that's pristine, that's precise, 00:03:44.020 --> 00:03:46.830 but if you don't communicate it with... emotion 00:03:46.830 --> 00:03:49.689 with impact with an idea of its significance, 00:03:49.830 --> 00:03:52.110 then it's going to fall flat when it lands in 00:03:52.110 --> 00:03:54.990 the in the leaders ears. So what I decided to 00:03:54.990 --> 00:03:59.090 do for myself was to work on this skill to become 00:03:59.090 --> 00:04:01.689 masterful at it so that I could advance my career. 00:04:02.069 --> 00:04:04.090 And when I reached a point where I could then 00:04:04.090 --> 00:04:05.990 give back to the community and share everything 00:04:05.990 --> 00:04:08.189 I learned, that's when I decided to start my 00:04:08.189 --> 00:04:11.370 own company. And that became my mission since 00:04:11.370 --> 00:04:17.779 then. Amazing. I think it's It's it's really 00:04:17.779 --> 00:04:23.279 becoming more important as we Realize hey You 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:25.600 know machine can take over some of the technical 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:30.220 stuff. So I think building consensus Communicating 00:04:30.220 --> 00:04:33.160 is only getting more important. And of course, 00:04:33.300 --> 00:04:36.339 I look up to you know leaders like Simon Sinek 00:04:36.339 --> 00:04:40.160 Vin Zhang and honestly you to you know, we're 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:42.779 kind of leading the pack in terms of hey, we 00:04:42.779 --> 00:04:46.370 just in business, and also specifically in data, 00:04:46.810 --> 00:04:51.649 where we talk about it less and less in terms 00:04:51.649 --> 00:04:57.430 of communication. It's really important, but 00:04:57.430 --> 00:05:03.389 I appreciate the background. Why is this gap 00:05:03.389 --> 00:05:07.649 especially pronounced in technical roles, but 00:05:07.649 --> 00:05:10.100 more so in data? What do you think that is? I 00:05:10.100 --> 00:05:12.220 think there are a variety of reasons for it, 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:16.420 but one pronounced one for me is if you think 00:05:16.420 --> 00:05:19.259 of it spatially, for us as technical and data 00:05:19.259 --> 00:05:22.060 folks, we like to focus on the really nitty gritty 00:05:22.060 --> 00:05:25.759 stuff, the making sure every detail is correct, 00:05:25.819 --> 00:05:27.800 every comma is in place in the code, whatever 00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:31.040 it is. But in order to have impact on leadership, 00:05:31.860 --> 00:05:34.860 we need to also see the bigger picture. So you 00:05:34.860 --> 00:05:37.910 can imagine in that spatial world that Trying 00:05:37.910 --> 00:05:40.290 to paint you need to have the ground to walk 00:05:40.290 --> 00:05:42.589 on that's really solid You need to have really 00:05:42.589 --> 00:05:45.730 accurate and precise code or product or whatever 00:05:45.730 --> 00:05:48.230 it is But you also need the sky and the stars 00:05:48.230 --> 00:05:50.689 to give you direction You need to inform leadership 00:05:50.689 --> 00:05:53.430 not only what you've done But why does it matter 00:05:53.430 --> 00:05:55.569 to them and what should they do about it when 00:05:55.569 --> 00:05:57.569 you have all those pieces? And you've created 00:05:57.569 --> 00:05:59.990 the full world for them. Then that's when you 00:05:59.990 --> 00:06:03.850 have impact That's amazing. Yeah, I mean I've 00:06:03.850 --> 00:06:08.480 personally Struggle with this and getting better 00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:11.279 at it because so like you said we're so in the 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:13.279 nitty -gritty and then when you have to talk 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:15.279 to others you have to kind of wear a different 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:20.139 hand become a different person and actually not 00:06:20.139 --> 00:06:25.060 think about a nitty -gritties and think about 00:06:25.060 --> 00:06:29.899 the best way to tell your story and and a lot 00:06:29.899 --> 00:06:33.879 of times we've I've realized and tell me if this 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:39.980 works for you But we as data people go so much 00:06:39.980 --> 00:06:44.240 want to communicate all the details. But it's 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:46.540 I've learned over the years that that's not the 00:06:46.540 --> 00:06:50.519 key. It's like make them ask questions is kind 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:55.560 of the tool. So introduce it, introduce it, introduce 00:06:55.560 --> 00:07:01.720 ideas, make sure that people are intrigued and 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:04.100 come back with more questions. I think that that's 00:07:04.100 --> 00:07:06.319 something I've learned over the years. Absolutely. 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:08.699 I'm working with a client now, and one of her 00:07:08.699 --> 00:07:13.199 first questions to me was, how do I know how 00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:16.279 much detail to give? And it's a complex question. 00:07:16.660 --> 00:07:18.579 And the answer is it depends on your audience. 00:07:18.699 --> 00:07:21.540 If we are speaking to technical people, then 00:07:21.540 --> 00:07:24.399 we can give a lot of detail because that's familiar 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:26.839 to them. They're interested in it. But if we're 00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:29.379 talking to leadership who is not so much interested 00:07:29.379 --> 00:07:31.180 in the implementation, they're more interested 00:07:31.180 --> 00:07:34.379 in the strategy and execution, then we need to 00:07:34.379 --> 00:07:36.579 focus more high level. So it depends on your 00:07:36.579 --> 00:07:38.899 audience. And as you said, we have to listen. 00:07:39.139 --> 00:07:41.339 We have to observe their reaction to us. If they're 00:07:41.339 --> 00:07:43.779 starting to get overwhelmed and confused, then 00:07:43.779 --> 00:07:47.220 we stop. We change direction. But if it's just 00:07:47.220 --> 00:07:49.459 right and they're eager and listening, then that's 00:07:49.459 --> 00:07:53.899 the level that we go at. Yeah, absolutely. I 00:07:53.899 --> 00:07:57.920 think I think we have that's a underrated skill 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:03.180 to know your audience and speak to them, meet 00:08:03.180 --> 00:08:05.879 them where they are in terms of technical details 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:11.879 or even the project in general. I really like 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:18.819 that. Do you talk a lot about communication as 00:08:18.819 --> 00:08:24.279 a teachable skill? Why the work will speak for 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:29.540 itself? career limiting belief Can you can you 00:08:29.540 --> 00:08:33.240 tell us more about that? Yeah as an analogy you 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:35.759 can imagine when you're writing code like sequel 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:39.399 or Python Whatever it is. You need to use the 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:42.080 right language to speak to the computer. Otherwise, 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:45.279 it won't understand what to do in the same way 00:08:45.279 --> 00:08:47.580 when we communicate to people we have to use 00:08:47.580 --> 00:08:49.340 the right language and that doesn't just mean 00:08:49.340 --> 00:08:53.399 English or Chinese or Spanish, it means we have 00:08:53.399 --> 00:08:55.340 to use the language that the brain understands 00:08:55.340 --> 00:08:57.980 the best, and that language is emotion. Of course, 00:08:58.019 --> 00:09:00.279 logic plays a part in decision making, but emotion 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:03.000 plays a really primary role as well. There were 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:05.740 studies done by a researcher called Antonio de 00:09:05.740 --> 00:09:08.879 Mazio. He found that when he looked at patients' 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:11.220 brains that had damage to the emotional part, 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:13.639 those patients were not able to make decisions 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:16.820 very easily, like even what to eat or what clothes 00:09:16.820 --> 00:09:19.879 to wear. It became very difficult and that revealed 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:22.120 emotion to play a central part in decision making. 00:09:22.259 --> 00:09:25.139 If you don't have emotion, then you logically 00:09:25.139 --> 00:09:27.879 try to analyze every single option possible and 00:09:27.879 --> 00:09:30.419 that takes forever. Emotion lets you narrow down 00:09:30.419 --> 00:09:33.679 to exactly what you feel is best. That's not 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:36.279 always the best technically from a logical standpoint, 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:39.000 but that feeling allows you to finally make your 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:42.879 choice. So in order to have impact, we need emotion. 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:46.759 That's very important. And yeah, I think the 00:09:46.759 --> 00:09:50.840 brain wants to take the path of least resistance 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:54.379 and emotion is a hack that allows it to focus 00:09:54.379 --> 00:09:57.879 on what's important, right? So we have, we're 00:09:57.879 --> 00:10:00.259 processing so much information every day and 00:10:00.259 --> 00:10:03.860 more so now with TikToks and Instagram reels 00:10:03.860 --> 00:10:05.919 and everything. So I think, and that's where 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:10.899 you kind of see emotions being highlighted everywhere, 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:15.490 right? In your newsfeed and your TikTok and everywhere. 00:10:16.350 --> 00:10:20.370 So I think we need to, we need to bring that 00:10:20.370 --> 00:10:24.350 in our work, but put it into a better use, you 00:10:24.350 --> 00:10:28.210 know, more intentional and more altruistic. Hey, 00:10:28.389 --> 00:10:30.970 this is storytelling with data, not conceding 00:10:30.970 --> 00:10:35.129 or, you know, getting more views. yeah the difficult 00:10:35.129 --> 00:10:38.730 part is we live in a world where people understand 00:10:38.730 --> 00:10:41.110 emotion is what makes people pay attention so 00:10:41.110 --> 00:10:44.169 in every kind of media they're capitalizing on 00:10:44.169 --> 00:10:47.129 that tiktoks as you said or short form videos 00:10:47.129 --> 00:10:49.740 they have at the very beginning, the most emotionally 00:10:49.740 --> 00:10:52.799 alarming thing to grab you in. That's not necessarily 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:55.059 the most ethical approach always. And especially 00:10:55.059 --> 00:10:56.940 in business, we want to make sure we're doing 00:10:56.940 --> 00:10:59.259 things ethically, but also doing things purposefully 00:10:59.259 --> 00:11:01.220 and intentionally. As you said, we're not just 00:11:01.220 --> 00:11:04.419 using emotion to sell or whatever it is. We're 00:11:04.419 --> 00:11:08.539 using emotion to show people how we feel and 00:11:08.539 --> 00:11:10.759 then using that as an invitation for them to 00:11:10.759 --> 00:11:13.620 feel something similar. Yeah. Yeah. I think we 00:11:13.620 --> 00:11:17.169 can, we can definitely learn from other aspects 00:11:17.169 --> 00:11:20.610 of life and apply that to, you know, how do we 00:11:20.610 --> 00:11:29.549 make our jobs better? 100 percent. What does 00:11:29.549 --> 00:11:33.570 it mean to treat communication like a structured 00:11:33.570 --> 00:11:39.990 and learnable discipline? Something I found interesting 00:11:39.990 --> 00:11:43.769 when people try to learn a new skill is if it's 00:11:43.769 --> 00:11:47.750 technical, we approach it from a technical standpoint, 00:11:48.149 --> 00:11:50.350 from a very structured standpoint. We say, okay, 00:11:50.389 --> 00:11:52.470 I'm going to learn how to code. I'm going to 00:11:52.470 --> 00:11:54.629 go to this website and go into their environment. 00:11:54.830 --> 00:11:56.750 I'll type out the code. I'll test things out, 00:11:56.789 --> 00:11:59.350 get feedback, see how I'm doing and improve. 00:11:59.710 --> 00:12:01.830 But with communication, it's very different. 00:12:01.909 --> 00:12:04.590 We don't seek the same technical way of learning. 00:12:05.029 --> 00:12:08.029 We just talk and then we don't seek feedback. 00:12:08.149 --> 00:12:10.049 We don't seek improvement unless someone says 00:12:10.049 --> 00:12:12.549 to us, you need to work on communication skills. 00:12:12.870 --> 00:12:15.500 I think that's a big tragedy. because then people 00:12:15.500 --> 00:12:17.600 won't work on communication to a large extent. 00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:20.379 We'll go our entire lives talking the same way 00:12:20.379 --> 00:12:22.580 and never knowing how to improve. So the way 00:12:22.580 --> 00:12:25.360 that I recommend communicating and learning communication 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:27.820 is always seeking as much feedback as possible. 00:12:27.940 --> 00:12:30.179 Of course, in business, people are polite. They 00:12:30.179 --> 00:12:32.320 don't always want to give that feedback. But 00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:34.220 that's why having a coach is often sometimes 00:12:34.220 --> 00:12:36.740 necessary as a mentor or a guide to tell you, 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:39.000 here's where you have some gaps. Here's where 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:41.360 you can enhance that, tweak that, and then become 00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:43.830 overall. better and more masterful with your 00:12:43.830 --> 00:12:49.090 communication. That's really key. Do you think 00:12:49.090 --> 00:12:53.850 there are some tips, quick tips like the rule 00:12:53.850 --> 00:12:57.110 of three or something like that that you could 00:12:57.110 --> 00:13:00.370 share with the audience? The biggest tip I would 00:13:00.370 --> 00:13:03.090 give ties back to our earlier conversation about 00:13:03.090 --> 00:13:05.549 knowing your audience. Speak their language. 00:13:05.950 --> 00:13:09.250 Before you talk to anyone, take the time to understand 00:13:09.250 --> 00:13:12.279 two things. What are their pains? And what are 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:15.059 their priorities? If you understand their pains, 00:13:15.100 --> 00:13:16.879 that's what people care most about. They want 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:20.019 to get rid of the pain, alleviate it. Then if 00:13:20.019 --> 00:13:21.980 you address that as the very first thing you 00:13:21.980 --> 00:13:24.879 have their attention in a meaningful way, then 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:26.799 priorities, where do they want to go? So you 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:28.639 have this low point of pain, you have this high 00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:30.659 point of priority. And if your communication 00:13:30.659 --> 00:13:33.440 bridges that gap, that's something really solid. 00:13:36.659 --> 00:13:41.750 What makes data Making data sing you looks like 00:13:41.750 --> 00:13:44.789 I know you talked about this in your TEDx talk 00:13:44.789 --> 00:13:48.970 and other places What is the concept and you 00:13:48.970 --> 00:13:50.929 talked about it a little bit? But can you tell 00:13:50.929 --> 00:13:54.350 more about it in terms of real -life setting 00:13:54.350 --> 00:13:58.610 and how can real executives make data sing? Of 00:13:58.610 --> 00:14:01.649 course, it's the subject of my TEDx talk and 00:14:01.649 --> 00:14:05.909 it's that we need both data and emotion Which 00:14:05.909 --> 00:14:08.529 creates music together in order to have impact 00:14:08.509 --> 00:14:11.690 And I tied this in the talk to Daniel Kahneman's 00:14:11.690 --> 00:14:14.690 theory. He's a famous economist, I want to say, 00:14:14.870 --> 00:14:17.110 or he was a researcher as well. And his major 00:14:17.110 --> 00:14:19.370 theory was the dual processing theory of mind, 00:14:19.950 --> 00:14:21.529 which states there are two modes of thought. 00:14:22.149 --> 00:14:24.509 One is a quick and intuitive mode, the emotional 00:14:24.509 --> 00:14:26.970 mode. That's very instinctual based on feelings 00:14:26.970 --> 00:14:30.370 and sensations. And there's also the slower and 00:14:30.370 --> 00:14:33.090 more logical mode that we use to make analytical 00:14:33.090 --> 00:14:36.470 decisions. Once you have both working together, 00:14:36.750 --> 00:14:40.659 that's how you really impact and connect with 00:14:40.659 --> 00:14:43.600 an audience. So in my talk, I talk about how 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:46.899 when you present data, of course you need that 00:14:46.899 --> 00:14:49.059 level of the logical bit. Here's what's going 00:14:49.059 --> 00:14:50.860 on, but you also need to connect that to the 00:14:50.860 --> 00:14:52.960 emotional part. Why does it matter? What do we 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:55.220 need to do about it? As an example of that in 00:14:55.220 --> 00:14:57.679 an executive setting, early on in my career, 00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:00.639 when I was learning data storytelling, I was 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:02.940 tasked with analyzing some data for the Department 00:15:02.940 --> 00:15:06.679 of Transportation. My big role was to publicize 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:09.259 the Department's work to the public, get them 00:15:09.259 --> 00:15:12.279 interested in what we did. I analyzed some data 00:15:12.279 --> 00:15:15.519 related to kids going to school. And I found 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:18.360 some analysis about certain modes being more 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:20.720 popular than others I presented to the executive. 00:15:21.139 --> 00:15:24.100 And they said, that's not a story. I said, how 00:15:24.100 --> 00:15:25.740 could this not be a story? I'm talking about 00:15:25.740 --> 00:15:27.840 the different modes of transportation. They said, 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:31.279 you haven't included human beings in this story. 00:15:31.500 --> 00:15:34.210 All you focused on is the data. and the transportation 00:15:34.210 --> 00:15:36.610 modes. And I said, that's when it hit me, I had 00:15:36.610 --> 00:15:39.710 my light bulb moments. I said, oh, it's not good 00:15:39.710 --> 00:15:43.090 enough to put data into a structure. That's not 00:15:43.090 --> 00:15:46.149 a story. To be a story, you need relatable characters 00:15:46.149 --> 00:15:49.529 so that I can connect to it. I'm analyzing data 00:15:49.529 --> 00:15:51.490 about kids going to school, but I haven't even 00:15:51.490 --> 00:15:53.429 talked about the kids who are going to school. 00:15:53.669 --> 00:15:56.289 I need to include that. So I did more analysis 00:15:56.289 --> 00:15:59.330 and I found an interesting story related to lower 00:15:59.330 --> 00:16:01.330 income families who take their kids to school. 00:16:02.509 --> 00:16:05.070 By and large, the majority of lower -income families 00:16:05.070 --> 00:16:08.090 in that analysis many, many years ago had private 00:16:08.090 --> 00:16:10.950 vehicles. However, those families did not use 00:16:10.950 --> 00:16:12.870 private vehicles to take their kids to school. 00:16:13.870 --> 00:16:15.389 Most of the time, those kids took the school 00:16:15.389 --> 00:16:16.850 bus, so I said, there's something interesting 00:16:16.850 --> 00:16:18.950 there. Further analysis revealed a suspicion 00:16:18.950 --> 00:16:21.889 of mine, which was, yes, those families have 00:16:21.889 --> 00:16:24.289 private vehicles, but they may not have the time 00:16:24.289 --> 00:16:26.789 and luxury to take kids to school despite that. 00:16:26.909 --> 00:16:29.049 So that's something really interesting. We can 00:16:29.049 --> 00:16:30.549 connect with that. Here are these kids who need 00:16:30.549 --> 00:16:32.529 to get to school. All kids need to get to school. 00:16:32.809 --> 00:16:34.870 But some families are limited in their ability 00:16:34.870 --> 00:16:37.309 to achieve that. That became the story. That's 00:16:37.309 --> 00:16:39.370 what impressed the executive. And in all the 00:16:39.370 --> 00:16:41.450 future situations I had, I found continually, 00:16:41.990 --> 00:16:43.830 it's when you include human beings in the story, 00:16:44.090 --> 00:16:46.149 connect that with the data that you have something 00:16:46.149 --> 00:16:49.950 very powerful. That is super powerful and something 00:16:49.950 --> 00:16:54.009 that's... I don't see that's been used in the 00:16:54.009 --> 00:16:56.730 business, right? So how do you, I mean, we all 00:16:56.730 --> 00:17:00.370 have customers, whether, you know, and customers, 00:17:00.450 --> 00:17:03.409 or even if you're just dealing with internal 00:17:03.409 --> 00:17:07.289 customers, that you have a human connection there. 00:17:07.529 --> 00:17:11.410 There's a, every day we go to work, we're solving 00:17:11.410 --> 00:17:14.750 human problems, right? So I think we need to 00:17:14.750 --> 00:17:19.069 bring those human stories along to the analysis. 00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:24.500 to make your story resonate more. Exactly. I 00:17:24.500 --> 00:17:27.079 was working with another client who was preparing 00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:29.779 a presentation with data, and I gave a similar 00:17:29.779 --> 00:17:32.000 argument to them that my executive gave to me. 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:33.720 I said, hey, there's a lot of good data here, 00:17:33.940 --> 00:17:36.019 but there's not yet a story because we need human 00:17:36.019 --> 00:17:38.140 beings. And their data was related to how many 00:17:38.140 --> 00:17:40.000 people have clicked on this part of the site. 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:42.740 And that was very analytical and very important. 00:17:42.859 --> 00:17:45.460 But I said, we need to also tie the customer. 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:48.710 How does this impact people? So they updated 00:17:48.710 --> 00:17:51.029 their story to say, these are the people who 00:17:51.029 --> 00:17:52.849 are clicking on our site because they're interested 00:17:52.849 --> 00:17:54.670 in buying something, but they're experiencing 00:17:54.670 --> 00:17:56.869 a friction. They're not able to find what they 00:17:56.869 --> 00:18:00.049 want. What we need to do is update the website 00:18:00.049 --> 00:18:02.809 so that people can find the information they're 00:18:02.809 --> 00:18:04.769 looking for and not get confused. So they changed 00:18:04.769 --> 00:18:07.450 a certain button. That became the story. It's 00:18:07.450 --> 00:18:10.190 so important to not forget whatever data we're 00:18:10.190 --> 00:18:12.309 working with, they're human somewhere in the 00:18:12.309 --> 00:18:17.369 value chain to include. Yeah. That's so super 00:18:17.369 --> 00:18:23.390 key. Yeah, I mean, I think just pulling in, you 00:18:23.390 --> 00:18:26.329 know, maybe a customer service call explaining 00:18:26.329 --> 00:18:29.670 that in the beginning of your presentation could 00:18:29.670 --> 00:18:33.750 add so much depth and relate ability to your 00:18:33.750 --> 00:18:37.009 analysis and presentation. That's something I'm 00:18:37.009 --> 00:18:40.690 going to borrow from this conversation. Amazing. 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:45.200 I have never thought of it that way, but it makes 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:50.779 so much sense once you talk about it. Yeah, it's 00:18:50.779 --> 00:18:53.720 easy when we work in tech to just focus on our 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:56.299 area of expertise, which is the numbers. But 00:18:56.299 --> 00:18:58.720 then we need to remember there are people involved 00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:00.579 in all aspects of business. That's what business 00:19:00.579 --> 00:19:05.339 is all about. I keep coming back to this, but 00:19:05.339 --> 00:19:09.279 this, your work is only getting more important 00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:15.029 as We had there's so much focus on AI and you 00:19:15.029 --> 00:19:19.789 know with With AI can do the analysis like AI 00:19:19.789 --> 00:19:25.130 can give you You know analysis at scale, right? 00:19:25.230 --> 00:19:28.269 So I think I think bringing in the human element 00:19:28.269 --> 00:19:32.910 is gonna be super important and I think I think 00:19:32.910 --> 00:19:37.089 our Jobs as data leaders are gonna be more about 00:19:37.089 --> 00:19:44.970 building consensus selling ideas Hypothesizing 00:19:44.970 --> 00:19:51.470 and proving Something with With these I you know, 00:19:51.470 --> 00:19:53.329 human connections is going to be more important 00:19:53.329 --> 00:19:57.809 than ever before Yeah, something that I've been 00:19:57.809 --> 00:19:59.730 thinking about a lot I'm currently writing an 00:19:59.730 --> 00:20:03.250 article about how AI is impacting the way that 00:20:03.250 --> 00:20:06.509 we communicate and something that I've considered 00:20:06.509 --> 00:20:11.230 is AI has made it possible to accelerate and 00:20:11.230 --> 00:20:14.029 optimize the way we write emails, that we write 00:20:14.029 --> 00:20:17.230 text messages, Slack messages. But what it cannot 00:20:17.230 --> 00:20:19.569 yet optimize is our verbal communication to each 00:20:19.569 --> 00:20:21.829 other. That's the thing that people are going 00:20:21.829 --> 00:20:24.190 to seek. Because when an executive is going to 00:20:24.190 --> 00:20:26.170 make a high -stakes decision, they're not going 00:20:26.170 --> 00:20:28.329 to go to their AI and say, what should I do? 00:20:28.589 --> 00:20:30.289 They're going to talk to people in the room and 00:20:30.289 --> 00:20:32.950 say, what should I do? And listen to them. The 00:20:32.950 --> 00:20:35.069 ability of those people to speak on the spot 00:20:35.069 --> 00:20:38.180 clearly and concisely. with their area of expertise 00:20:38.180 --> 00:20:41.299 and their voice spontaneously is going to determine 00:20:41.299 --> 00:20:43.539 what that executive does and who that executive 00:20:43.539 --> 00:20:46.480 trusts. So verbal communication on the spot speaking 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:49.480 spontaneous impromptu speaking is going to be 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:52.099 even more important as AI continues to proliferate 00:20:52.099 --> 00:20:56.460 in the workplace. Yeah, absolutely. And like 00:20:56.460 --> 00:21:00.799 I said, English is not my first language. So 00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:04.359 initially when Chad GPT came along, I'm like, 00:21:04.460 --> 00:21:08.299 okay, I can just use this, at least in my emails 00:21:08.299 --> 00:21:12.500 and all of that, but I soon realized it kind 00:21:12.500 --> 00:21:16.880 of takes away something, maybe the soul of the 00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:20.660 communication, right? So although it makes it 00:21:20.660 --> 00:21:25.799 really easy, it also takes away a little bit 00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:28.299 of humanity in a lot of ways, or a little bit 00:21:28.299 --> 00:21:31.900 of meaning in the email. So I think it's really 00:21:31.900 --> 00:21:35.200 important for us to How do you balance that? 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:40.700 So if you're struggling with grammar or sentence 00:21:40.700 --> 00:21:43.579 structure, use that to kind of think about how 00:21:43.579 --> 00:21:47.740 you present it versus just dumping it into chat 00:21:47.740 --> 00:21:50.180 GPT and sending that as an email or like you 00:21:50.180 --> 00:21:57.319 said, preparing to talk to your executive in 00:21:57.319 --> 00:21:59.619 a verbal communication setting in a meeting. 00:22:03.159 --> 00:22:08.119 It's a delicate balance how much you use AI to 00:22:08.119 --> 00:22:11.059 dictate how your conversation is going to be. 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:15.140 And also how much AI cannot help you when you're 00:22:15.140 --> 00:22:19.279 talking to people face to face. I recommend AI 00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:23.140 usually as a partner and not as a crutch or a 00:22:23.140 --> 00:22:26.920 replacement for you. What I see too often these 00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:29.539 days is a lot of professionals using it for everything. 00:22:30.089 --> 00:22:32.130 to write a script for their entire presentation, 00:22:32.269 --> 00:22:34.569 to generate all the slides, then where are you 00:22:34.569 --> 00:22:37.069 at Abor and all that? But as you indicated, there 00:22:37.069 --> 00:22:39.869 is a way to balance that and to use it as a partner. 00:22:40.230 --> 00:22:43.869 If you are trying to use it to refresh on your 00:22:43.869 --> 00:22:45.329 understanding of the language to make sure you 00:22:45.329 --> 00:22:47.250 get something correct, it's a good reference, 00:22:47.589 --> 00:22:49.069 but it should not replace everything that you 00:22:49.069 --> 00:22:51.650 do. I'm working with someone now who is a non 00:22:51.650 --> 00:22:54.210 -native English speaker, and her question to 00:22:54.210 --> 00:22:57.299 me was, how should I structure my sentences if 00:22:57.299 --> 00:22:59.259 I'm unfamiliar with the grammar like a native 00:22:59.259 --> 00:23:02.700 English speaker is and I said the thing that 00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:05.220 I found with her in her particular case was she 00:23:05.220 --> 00:23:09.220 was trying to sound more expert and more authoritative 00:23:09.220 --> 00:23:11.539 because she wanted to impress and that's the 00:23:11.539 --> 00:23:14.299 thing I want people to avoid I don't want you 00:23:14.299 --> 00:23:18.259 to speak in a more elevated way just to fit in 00:23:18.259 --> 00:23:21.250 and just to sound better Speak like yourself, 00:23:21.430 --> 00:23:22.849 what you're comfortable with, and that's what 00:23:22.849 --> 00:23:25.809 will come naturally. So I said to her, a very 00:23:25.809 --> 00:23:27.950 concise way to communicate that everyone will 00:23:27.950 --> 00:23:30.650 appreciate is just say, subject, verb, and object. 00:23:30.950 --> 00:23:34.750 I am doing this. That's very clear. Use short, 00:23:34.890 --> 00:23:37.009 concise sentences. Executives don't want to hear 00:23:37.009 --> 00:23:39.390 you going on and on and on about different things 00:23:39.390 --> 00:23:41.930 in tangential directions with complicated sentence 00:23:41.930 --> 00:23:44.630 structure. Stick simple, speak naturally, and 00:23:44.630 --> 00:23:47.829 use ChatGPT as you need to update that and reference 00:23:47.829 --> 00:23:51.400 it. But... don't use it to completely replace 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:55.480 what you're trying to say. No, 100%. I think, 00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:59.519 I think it resonates with me a lot because early 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:02.980 on in my career, I kind of did that, right? So 00:24:02.980 --> 00:24:08.559 hey, English is not my most strongest suit. And 00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:10.960 also, I mean, even technically, I wasn't really 00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:20.950 good. So you tend to use big words or big hard 00:24:20.950 --> 00:24:25.490 technical terms just so you can come across as 00:24:25.490 --> 00:24:29.650 an expert. But people can tell one, but also 00:24:29.650 --> 00:24:34.990 it doesn't feel natural. Right. So I think over 00:24:34.990 --> 00:24:40.329 the years. Communicating and relating to the 00:24:40.329 --> 00:24:43.839 person, like you said before. whoever they are, 00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:46.140 whether it's an executive or a product leader 00:24:46.140 --> 00:24:53.019 or a engineer or a customer care person. The 00:24:53.019 --> 00:24:57.039 goal is to communicate your ideas and not to 00:24:57.039 --> 00:25:02.420 sound impressive. Because if you do that well, 00:25:02.700 --> 00:25:05.539 if the work speaks for itself, when you communicate, 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:10.940 if the ideas can get through, that's more impressive 00:25:10.940 --> 00:25:15.569 than using big words and I'll add to that and 00:25:15.569 --> 00:25:18.769 I'll say when we're speaking to people we can 00:25:18.769 --> 00:25:21.069 at a very instinctual level tell if you're being 00:25:21.069 --> 00:25:24.329 authentic and genuine and something related to 00:25:24.329 --> 00:25:27.430 that is the delay that happens when we speak 00:25:27.690 --> 00:25:30.589 If people try to talk in a very complicated, 00:25:30.750 --> 00:25:32.690 expert fashion, there's going to be a large delay 00:25:32.690 --> 00:25:35.049 between their thought and then their actual execution. 00:25:35.269 --> 00:25:37.109 And that will make the person feel, oh, maybe 00:25:37.109 --> 00:25:39.130 they're not being completely transparent in what 00:25:39.130 --> 00:25:41.130 they're trying to express to me. Just speaking 00:25:41.130 --> 00:25:43.769 naturally, intuitively, is what makes people 00:25:43.769 --> 00:25:45.549 feel, okay, this person is just speaking what's 00:25:45.549 --> 00:25:47.269 on their mind, what they feel. They're not trying 00:25:47.269 --> 00:25:51.009 to hide something from me. Yeah, that's a really... 00:25:51.009 --> 00:25:53.849 I hadn't thought about that, but yeah, that sounds 00:25:53.849 --> 00:26:04.680 very true. Amazing. Let's talk about building 00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:08.859 consensus, right? So I think it's becoming more 00:26:08.859 --> 00:26:14.700 important in this world of unless you're a CEO 00:26:14.700 --> 00:26:21.140 or the board of a company, I would suggest and 00:26:21.140 --> 00:26:23.980 I would hope not everybody is doing this, but 00:26:23.980 --> 00:26:30.269 being Just saying, hey, this is what I want and 00:26:30.269 --> 00:26:34.410 just go do this is not a really good way to lead, 00:26:34.509 --> 00:26:36.690 whether it's leading your team or leading your 00:26:36.690 --> 00:26:43.509 peers or managing upwards. I think building consensus 00:26:43.509 --> 00:26:48.289 and making a case for your ideas are really key. 00:26:49.289 --> 00:26:53.609 What are some of your... tips or things that 00:26:53.609 --> 00:26:56.250 you've learned about building consensus, bringing 00:26:56.250 --> 00:27:00.910 people along. I give a tip regarding the difference 00:27:00.910 --> 00:27:05.049 between passive, aggressive, and assertive communication. 00:27:05.150 --> 00:27:07.730 I'll tell a story related to this. I was working 00:27:07.730 --> 00:27:11.730 with a client and her major concern for me was 00:27:11.730 --> 00:27:14.529 her struggle with speaking on the spot. And the 00:27:14.529 --> 00:27:17.650 reason she had a struggle speaking on the spot 00:27:17.650 --> 00:27:20.809 was she was afraid of her boss. Her boss was 00:27:20.809 --> 00:27:23.349 a very critical person. She was working at Amazon 00:27:23.349 --> 00:27:25.769 at the time and within the culture of her team, 00:27:26.190 --> 00:27:27.910 her boss had a very authoritative leadership 00:27:27.910 --> 00:27:30.269 style. So as you were saying, this is what you 00:27:30.269 --> 00:27:32.269 do. I'm not going to take no for an answer. She 00:27:32.269 --> 00:27:35.170 was afraid to communicate because her personality 00:27:35.170 --> 00:27:38.490 was antithetical to that. She's a naturally more 00:27:38.490 --> 00:27:41.029 empathetic person, a more collaborative person 00:27:41.029 --> 00:27:43.200 and that There was just a lot of tension there. 00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:45.680 So she asked me, how should I communicate to 00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:48.140 this person when they're just telling me what 00:27:48.140 --> 00:27:50.920 to do and I can't really refuse that? I said, 00:27:50.980 --> 00:27:53.460 there is a difference between passive, aggressive, 00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:55.619 and assertive communication. Passive communication 00:27:55.619 --> 00:27:58.400 is what she was leading to at the moment, which 00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:01.000 was, okay, maybe I can do that. Let me see if 00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:04.079 I can just do this very hesitant language, hedging 00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:06.119 language that makes it seem like you're just 00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:08.420 going to do what the other person says. Now there 00:28:08.420 --> 00:28:10.880 are consequences to that. And there are also 00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:13.420 advantages. The advantage is you don't have to 00:28:13.420 --> 00:28:15.299 deal with the problem. You just do what the other 00:28:15.299 --> 00:28:17.460 person says. You create harmony in the environment. 00:28:17.779 --> 00:28:20.299 But the consequence is you are not able to do 00:28:20.299 --> 00:28:24.380 what you want. The other pole is aggressive communication. 00:28:24.519 --> 00:28:27.420 Now here, the other person can experience the 00:28:27.420 --> 00:28:29.640 consequences. As we see in the case of her boss 00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:32.740 talking down to her. If you are overly aggressive 00:28:32.740 --> 00:28:35.380 with someone, you may get your way. That's the 00:28:35.380 --> 00:28:37.759 advantage. But the disadvantage is you may lose 00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:39.880 the relationship. because now you rub them the 00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:42.339 wrong way. Assertive communication is something 00:28:42.339 --> 00:28:44.900 that seeks to balance those two extremes. With 00:28:44.900 --> 00:28:47.779 assertive communication, you can be direct, but 00:28:47.779 --> 00:28:50.259 you can also be respectful. There's a term for 00:28:50.259 --> 00:28:52.099 this in business called radical candor, and there's 00:28:52.099 --> 00:28:55.119 also a book that accompanies that. And the thesis 00:28:55.119 --> 00:28:58.380 of the book is you can have candor, you can be 00:28:58.380 --> 00:29:00.799 honest, and you can be radical and disruptive 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:03.099 with it, but you can still be respectful in the 00:29:03.099 --> 00:29:05.180 way you deliver that. And balancing all those 00:29:05.180 --> 00:29:08.099 things allows you to state what you want. but 00:29:08.099 --> 00:29:10.039 also respect the other person has an opinion. 00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:12.839 When you do all those things, people feel included. 00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:15.279 They understand what you want them to do still 00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:17.720 as a leader, but you create a more collaborative 00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:20.700 atmosphere. That's the balance, and I hope more 00:29:20.700 --> 00:29:24.720 leaders strike. I think that's a really important 00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:29.519 topic of communication. Could you give us an 00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:33.680 example about what does it look like in the real 00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:37.960 world? Yeah, of course. So let's do a mock. session 00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:41.579 now. Let's say you're a leader on your team. 00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:44.500 What's something that you would tell your team 00:29:44.500 --> 00:29:49.599 members about, like a directive? A direct report. 00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:56.099 So yeah, I've been thinking about performance 00:29:56.099 --> 00:29:58.539 reviews. It's the beginning of the year, right? 00:29:58.740 --> 00:30:05.900 So that's something that's on my mind. One of 00:30:05.900 --> 00:30:11.559 my team members is really I think one of the 00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:15.980 things that I and them all of us are not good 00:30:15.980 --> 00:30:22.920 at is Just doing the Documentation right like 00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:26.920 so many of us where we we just don't document 00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:30.160 really well I've learned over time that you know, 00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:33.380 it's important and it's key, but we just want 00:30:33.380 --> 00:30:36.690 to do our thing and just go on to the next next 00:30:36.690 --> 00:30:40.170 one, but it's really important to document so 00:30:40.170 --> 00:30:42.190 that we not end up doing the same things again 00:30:42.190 --> 00:30:44.470 and again. So I think that's something I want 00:30:44.470 --> 00:30:48.450 to communicate to my my team. Yeah, so we can 00:30:48.450 --> 00:30:51.710 go through that in various extremes of communication. 00:30:51.750 --> 00:30:54.089 So first is passive. If you wanted to deliver 00:30:54.089 --> 00:30:57.029 the message. to work on documentation to a team 00:30:57.029 --> 00:30:59.490 member. A passive way to do that would be, oh 00:30:59.490 --> 00:31:01.589 hey, I noticed you're doing a really great job 00:31:01.589 --> 00:31:03.829 with all your work. The coding is fantastic and 00:31:03.829 --> 00:31:05.829 all that. Documentation is something maybe you 00:31:05.829 --> 00:31:08.849 should look at as well. So that would be a really 00:31:08.849 --> 00:31:11.630 subtle and a way to indicate to them they should 00:31:11.630 --> 00:31:13.890 work on documentation. They might not get that 00:31:13.890 --> 00:31:15.710 message at all. All they heard was you're doing 00:31:15.710 --> 00:31:18.529 a great job. And the other end of the extreme 00:31:18.529 --> 00:31:20.650 is aggressive communication, where you say, your 00:31:20.650 --> 00:31:22.630 documentation is horrible, go fix it or you're 00:31:22.630 --> 00:31:25.710 fired. Something like that, of course. Some companies 00:31:25.710 --> 00:31:28.750 that might be the case. Now assertive communication 00:31:28.750 --> 00:31:32.470 would be a way where you are direct yet respectful 00:31:32.470 --> 00:31:35.170 and a framework I recommend to do that is known 00:31:35.170 --> 00:31:37.890 as situation behavior impact. You talk about 00:31:37.890 --> 00:31:41.130 a situation, a very specific situation the person 00:31:41.130 --> 00:31:44.210 has been in. You describe that situation to them 00:31:44.210 --> 00:31:46.329 so you're both on the same page, objective data. 00:31:46.730 --> 00:31:48.569 Then you say here's the behavior I noticed that 00:31:48.569 --> 00:31:50.630 you did in that situation and here was the impact 00:31:50.630 --> 00:31:53.859 on that. After that, you say, how can we work 00:31:53.859 --> 00:31:57.259 on that together? So example, I noticed that 00:31:57.259 --> 00:31:59.480 in the last project, the documentation that you 00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:01.960 wrote up, and then you describe the behavior, 00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:04.740 the documentation didn't have as much detail 00:32:04.740 --> 00:32:07.200 as the stakeholder wanted. The impact of that 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:08.799 was the stakeholder was confused. We weren't 00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:10.680 able to advance the project as much as we wanted. 00:32:11.019 --> 00:32:13.059 Now, let's talk about ways where we can make 00:32:13.059 --> 00:32:15.539 sure the documentation is updated in the future 00:32:15.539 --> 00:32:18.660 to whatever standard that you've set. In that 00:32:18.660 --> 00:32:21.509 way, yes, it's direct. But you're still respectful 00:32:21.509 --> 00:32:23.490 the other person you open the conversation up 00:32:23.490 --> 00:32:25.710 to hear their perspective And when you want to 00:32:25.710 --> 00:32:27.910 understand how they would be proactive in fixing 00:32:27.910 --> 00:32:32.109 the problem Yeah, that's a really good way to 00:32:32.109 --> 00:32:38.289 balance both assertive and passive Set of communication 00:32:38.289 --> 00:32:43.710 Something on my mind I Think I mean like you 00:32:43.710 --> 00:32:47.549 said situation behavior and impact. I think it 00:32:47.549 --> 00:32:53.210 takes away from saying, hey, you are the problem 00:32:53.210 --> 00:32:59.210 to giving a specific scenario. Hey, this thing 00:32:59.210 --> 00:33:02.569 that we did was the problem and not really, it's 00:33:02.569 --> 00:33:05.390 not the entire person. You as a person is just 00:33:05.390 --> 00:33:11.269 one thing within what the whole, just improve 00:33:11.269 --> 00:33:14.430 that 2 % and we'll be great. Exactly. Yeah, the 00:33:14.430 --> 00:33:17.190 thing that often happens when it comes to feedback 00:33:17.190 --> 00:33:19.740 is we take it personally. and when you take it 00:33:19.740 --> 00:33:22.819 personally you're unable to let go of ego you 00:33:22.819 --> 00:33:25.900 don't want to work on it but if you can distance 00:33:25.900 --> 00:33:28.039 from that as much as possible by saying here's 00:33:28.039 --> 00:33:30.400 the situation the behavior and impact you say 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:32.539 here's one very specific action that you took 00:33:32.539 --> 00:33:35.059 that we can update it's not all of you as a person 00:33:35.059 --> 00:33:36.980 as you said that needs to be fixed that's what 00:33:36.980 --> 00:33:39.539 lets people be more receptive to actually fixing 00:33:39.539 --> 00:33:47.049 it amazing Yeah, I think the balance and nuances 00:33:47.049 --> 00:33:52.569 are so key when communication, communicating. 00:33:56.849 --> 00:34:02.690 I know we kind of alluded to this in the past, 00:34:02.789 --> 00:34:09.050 especially in role of data communicating. How 00:34:09.050 --> 00:34:13.059 do you What's the difference between informing 00:34:13.059 --> 00:34:21.619 persuading and aligning? With data If we just 00:34:21.619 --> 00:34:25.739 show what's going on like this is the sales that 00:34:25.739 --> 00:34:30.519 went up 90 % That's great. But we also need to 00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:33.480 as you said persuade and align we need to tell 00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:36.110 people what to do about that information and 00:34:36.110 --> 00:34:38.190 align with what they know and what they prioritize 00:34:38.190 --> 00:34:41.550 what their pain is. So for that 90 % increase, 00:34:41.869 --> 00:34:44.389 where did we start? Did we start at a really 00:34:44.389 --> 00:34:46.750 low point and then the 90 % increase is very 00:34:46.750 --> 00:34:48.690 minimal? Or did we start at a high point and 00:34:48.690 --> 00:34:51.010 now we're reaching our goals? So when you put 00:34:51.010 --> 00:34:53.349 things into context when it comes to data communication, 00:34:53.429 --> 00:34:56.210 then it's clear why things matter. Perhaps let's 00:34:56.210 --> 00:35:00.190 say as in another example, we made $10 ,000 in 00:35:00.190 --> 00:35:03.340 sales last quarter. Okay, great. That's just 00:35:03.340 --> 00:35:06.340 the what now. Why is that important? Well last 00:35:06.340 --> 00:35:09.239 quarter the previous Quarter before that we made 00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:13.199 only one dollar now the $10 ,000 seems incredibly 00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:15.300 significant. Why did that happen? We can go into 00:35:15.300 --> 00:35:17.340 the root causes. Maybe we had a new marketing 00:35:17.340 --> 00:35:19.920 campaign or new product, and that's what we should 00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:22.199 continue doing to make more money for the company. 00:35:22.780 --> 00:35:24.840 Alternatively, if you were to say we made $10 00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:27.340 ,000 last quarter and the quarter before that 00:35:27.340 --> 00:35:29.039 we made a million dollars, something is horribly 00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:32.079 wrong. Now I need to indicate to you, align with 00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:34.980 your priority and pain, which would be what happened. 00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:37.460 Why are we doing so poorly now? And let's fix 00:35:37.460 --> 00:35:39.900 that so it doesn't happen in the quarter that 00:35:39.900 --> 00:35:50.659 follows this one. That's true. Let's talk about 00:35:50.659 --> 00:35:54.800 public speaking. I know you do such a good job 00:35:54.800 --> 00:36:00.739 and you're an expert in teaching people how to 00:36:00.739 --> 00:36:07.139 do it well. So I'd love to learn from you. Why 00:36:07.139 --> 00:36:13.389 is communication anxiety so common among technical 00:36:13.389 --> 00:36:19.530 leaders in general and also in a public speaking 00:36:19.530 --> 00:36:23.989 setting. I'd say for technical leaders specifically, 00:36:24.710 --> 00:36:27.409 our mindset is very technical as well. We like 00:36:27.409 --> 00:36:30.309 things to go as we planned. But what often happens 00:36:30.309 --> 00:36:32.989 in public speaking is things don't go according 00:36:32.989 --> 00:36:37.679 to plan. And one very unfortunate case of that 00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:40.539 was in a keynote I gave last year. It was abroad 00:36:40.539 --> 00:36:43.480 in Portugal. It was a communication skills keynote. 00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:46.400 I had everything prepared. All my slides, I had 00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:48.699 all the talking points and the talk track. I 00:36:48.699 --> 00:36:50.699 was going through it, everything was going perfectly, 00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:54.059 and then on the stage, I could feel in my stomach 00:36:54.059 --> 00:36:57.920 there was this pain. I had just eaten lunch before 00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:00.320 this portion of the keynote, so I said, okay, 00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:02.929 maybe I didn't eat something... that my stomach 00:37:02.929 --> 00:37:05.230 agreed with. So I was like, OK, maybe that will 00:37:05.230 --> 00:37:07.469 go away. Let me just keep going. I need to get 00:37:07.469 --> 00:37:09.510 through this because this is important. Then 00:37:09.510 --> 00:37:11.690 the pain starts to intensify and then I start 00:37:11.690 --> 00:37:15.010 to see blurry blurriness in my vision. I start 00:37:15.010 --> 00:37:17.769 to get lightheaded and I say, OK, I can't ignore 00:37:17.769 --> 00:37:20.630 this anymore. I can't will this away with sheer 00:37:20.630 --> 00:37:23.170 willpower. So now I need to do something about 00:37:23.170 --> 00:37:25.909 this. This is going to require me to go off script. 00:37:26.730 --> 00:37:30.090 So I said, all right, everybody, I am not feeling 00:37:30.090 --> 00:37:33.050 well. I need to go to the bathroom. In the meantime, 00:37:33.130 --> 00:37:35.570 we're going to segue to a group activity where 00:37:35.570 --> 00:37:38.570 you implement what I just taught you. So, I went 00:37:38.570 --> 00:37:41.690 to the bathroom, I came back, I felt much better. 00:37:42.170 --> 00:37:44.949 It was food poisoning. And everything went fine 00:37:44.949 --> 00:37:48.329 after that. Nobody batted an eye. If you handle 00:37:48.329 --> 00:37:51.210 a situation with grace and composure, and you 00:37:51.210 --> 00:37:53.730 adapt as needed, everybody's going to respect 00:37:53.730 --> 00:37:56.210 the fact you can't anticipate everything bad 00:37:56.210 --> 00:37:58.590 things happen. We all had a laugh about it after 00:37:58.590 --> 00:38:01.219 the keynote. They said, yeah. Can't believe that 00:38:01.219 --> 00:38:02.780 happened in the middle of something so important. 00:38:02.920 --> 00:38:06.159 But because I handled it and because we had a 00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:08.500 successful event afterwards, nobody's going to 00:38:08.500 --> 00:38:10.260 remember that except for the fact that it was 00:38:10.260 --> 00:38:13.920 handled well. Yeah, that's amazing. And I think 00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:17.780 that's I'm so glad you handle it really well. 00:38:17.780 --> 00:38:22.380 And that's a really good example of it. And nobody 00:38:22.380 --> 00:38:29.500 I think we. Like you said, we think about. everything 00:38:29.500 --> 00:38:36.699 has to go so perfectly like as it is in my head. 00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:43.340 So I think that's not real life. I think all 00:38:43.340 --> 00:38:46.260 of us technical leaders are a bit of control 00:38:46.260 --> 00:38:51.360 freaks and want things to go as we have in our 00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.900 minds. For many of the clients I work with who 00:38:53.900 --> 00:38:56.280 are technical leaders, that is the number one 00:38:56.280 --> 00:38:58.659 thing that we tackle from lesson one that I have 00:38:58.659 --> 00:39:00.820 with them, is we need to let go of the mindset 00:39:00.820 --> 00:39:04.380 of perfection because perfection is not possible 00:39:04.380 --> 00:39:07.719 in communication. Communication, especially verbal 00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:10.579 communication, by nature is messy and improvisational. 00:39:10.780 --> 00:39:13.389 It's not like writing. which AI can automate 00:39:13.389 --> 00:39:16.369 to be perfect. But in speaking, it's on the spot. 00:39:16.429 --> 00:39:18.809 You're required to come up with something instantaneously. 00:39:19.010 --> 00:39:20.829 It's going to be a little messy, and you're not 00:39:20.829 --> 00:39:22.949 going to find the best idea. You have to work 00:39:22.949 --> 00:39:26.010 with whatever you have. And that's what I teach, 00:39:26.409 --> 00:39:29.010 is to adapt to whatever your mind gives to you, 00:39:29.250 --> 00:39:31.289 adapt to the situation, adapt to your audience. 00:39:31.789 --> 00:39:33.630 Especially in some presentations, I'm talking 00:39:33.630 --> 00:39:35.579 about something. It's not clicking. So I say, 00:39:35.739 --> 00:39:38.199 OK, we need to change gears. This is something 00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:40.340 I didn't prepare. But because my audience wants 00:39:40.340 --> 00:39:42.440 something else, I have to give that to them. 00:39:42.920 --> 00:39:45.659 So being able to adapt is a key skill for communication. 00:39:45.699 --> 00:39:47.239 And that's something that I work with technical 00:39:47.239 --> 00:39:51.679 leaders to a great extent with. That's very important. 00:39:52.659 --> 00:39:58.039 Do you know? I know you work with a lot of leaders 00:39:58.039 --> 00:40:01.840 who are not native English speakers, who are 00:40:01.840 --> 00:40:07.739 probably bilingual or trilingual. Speaking of 00:40:07.739 --> 00:40:12.320 myself, I feel like there are multiple languages 00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:16.280 running in my head every time and me having to 00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:19.760 find the best words or sentence structures in 00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:22.219 a way that, you know, sits well with English. 00:40:23.340 --> 00:40:27.019 What are the tips for non -native speakers or 00:40:27.019 --> 00:40:30.989 is there a framework to think about? What I do 00:40:30.989 --> 00:40:33.130 especially with some clients I'm working with 00:40:33.130 --> 00:40:36.070 now who are non -native English speakers is it's 00:40:36.070 --> 00:40:39.690 very important to Diagram visually what you know, 00:40:40.329 --> 00:40:43.030 this is not something that we do But if you can 00:40:43.030 --> 00:40:45.230 think about it like this when we're speaking 00:40:45.230 --> 00:40:47.409 all these thoughts are going through our head 00:40:47.409 --> 00:40:51.090 that we cannot see So it's hard to fix something 00:40:51.090 --> 00:40:54.150 that you cannot see What if you could put all 00:40:54.150 --> 00:40:57.150 of that down on a piece of paper? Create a mind 00:40:57.150 --> 00:41:00.329 map for example a diagram. Here's a topic I usually 00:41:00.329 --> 00:41:03.010 speak on. Let's say it's software engineering. 00:41:03.289 --> 00:41:05.469 Let me diagram all the things I know related 00:41:05.469 --> 00:41:07.809 to software engineering. I can see it in one 00:41:07.809 --> 00:41:10.750 place. I can see what gaps I have. So I can fill 00:41:10.750 --> 00:41:13.329 in those gaps. Then if someone asks me about 00:41:13.329 --> 00:41:15.590 software engineering, I know what to pull in 00:41:15.590 --> 00:41:18.760 because I can see it. As another example, when 00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:20.719 it comes to vocabulary, like you mentioned, you 00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:23.059 want to find the right word to express your intent. 00:41:23.579 --> 00:41:25.980 Take a word or a concept that you need to talk 00:41:25.980 --> 00:41:28.460 about. Let's say it's the concept of something 00:41:28.460 --> 00:41:30.900 being previous. So you put the word previous, 00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:34.579 you diagram, okay, what synonyms are there related 00:41:34.579 --> 00:41:38.480 to previous, beforehand, maybe preceding, and 00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:40.320 then you can do some things related to that. 00:41:40.360 --> 00:41:43.599 So the concept something being after. subsequent, 00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:46.539 consequent. If you do that for every typical 00:41:46.539 --> 00:41:48.420 concept you need to talk about, suddenly you 00:41:48.420 --> 00:41:51.079 have all this rich treasure trove of associations 00:41:51.079 --> 00:41:53.699 to work with visually. You can see what gaps 00:41:53.699 --> 00:41:55.940 exist. You can fill them in. So the biggest advice 00:41:55.940 --> 00:41:58.599 I would give to anyone listening, non -native 00:41:58.599 --> 00:42:01.440 speaker or native speaker is to visually diagram 00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:03.860 your knowledge and your vocabulary so that you 00:42:03.860 --> 00:42:06.400 can fill in those gaps and be proactive about 00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:10.460 it. Yeah, that's very powerful. I think spending 00:42:10.460 --> 00:42:15.059 some time to think about and building a mind 00:42:15.059 --> 00:42:18.880 map of, or even put it on a paper or a document, 00:42:20.500 --> 00:42:25.320 the concepts and creating that visually is, I 00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:28.639 think, that would be super important. I hadn't 00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:31.079 thought about that. So I typically just write 00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:35.280 it down. That's helpful, but probably visualizing 00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:40.250 maybe even more powerful. The thing that is advantageous 00:42:40.250 --> 00:42:42.210 about this approach is it aligns with the way 00:42:42.210 --> 00:42:44.909 a lot of us as technical people think. We like 00:42:44.909 --> 00:42:47.570 charting things out and being precise, but the 00:42:47.570 --> 00:42:50.130 other advantage of it is it develops associative 00:42:50.130 --> 00:42:52.849 thinking. When we just write what we want to 00:42:52.849 --> 00:42:55.570 say, like in a script, that's for one instance 00:42:55.570 --> 00:42:58.150 only. But if you chart out your knowledge and 00:42:58.150 --> 00:43:00.590 find all the associations between different related 00:43:00.590 --> 00:43:02.769 topics, you start to see creative connections 00:43:02.769 --> 00:43:04.909 between things you didn't see before. Then in 00:43:04.909 --> 00:43:07.429 the next conversation, you can bring those associations 00:43:07.429 --> 00:43:09.989 and you're no longer stuck, but you can see all 00:43:09.989 --> 00:43:14.289 the corners of your mind. That's very true. That's 00:43:14.289 --> 00:43:18.269 very true. And yeah, we love charts, don't we? 00:43:18.449 --> 00:43:26.909 Yes. Cool. Let's talk about your TEDx experience 00:43:26.909 --> 00:43:29.230 and the lessons, some of the lessons that you 00:43:29.230 --> 00:43:33.030 may have learned. What motivated you to pursue 00:43:33.030 --> 00:43:36.829 a TEDx talk and how did that come about? When 00:43:36.829 --> 00:43:41.750 I was younger, I was the shyest, most introverted 00:43:41.750 --> 00:43:44.730 person in my high school, by far at large. I 00:43:44.730 --> 00:43:46.570 couldn't muster the courage or the willpower 00:43:46.570 --> 00:43:49.690 to talk to anyone, teacher, let alone a classmate. 00:43:49.949 --> 00:43:53.429 And I had this dream of mine. And one day I could 00:43:53.429 --> 00:43:55.599 overcome that. and I could give a TEDx talk one 00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:58.739 day. That was my earliest dream. So fast forward 00:43:58.739 --> 00:44:01.119 many years, I say to myself, I need to work on 00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:04.099 this skill. A teacher told me in high school, 00:44:04.260 --> 00:44:07.380 Chris, you have such brilliant ideas. You have 00:44:07.380 --> 00:44:10.400 great hard work ethic. But if you do not communicate, 00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:13.380 people will never see that. So she inspired me 00:44:13.380 --> 00:44:15.599 to really, really hone in on working on this 00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:17.920 skill. I began to practice every single day, 00:44:17.940 --> 00:44:20.460 recording myself, watching it back, seeing what 00:44:20.460 --> 00:44:23.820 I can improve. I watched videos of people I read 00:44:23.820 --> 00:44:28.159 books and over time I noticed that I was improving 00:44:28.159 --> 00:44:30.440 because I was practicing and I was actually doing 00:44:30.440 --> 00:44:33.559 it when it eventually came time for me two years 00:44:33.559 --> 00:44:37.940 ago to apply for TEDx event I had some imposter 00:44:37.940 --> 00:44:40.079 syndrome I said okay I've never done something 00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:42.099 as big as this before maybe I shouldn't even 00:44:42.099 --> 00:44:44.280 apply they'll just reject me but I said no I 00:44:44.280 --> 00:44:47.199 had a good feeling about this the theme of the 00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:50.780 event was rethinking innovation it was looking 00:44:50.780 --> 00:44:53.559 for experts who have creatively combined different 00:44:53.559 --> 00:44:57.280 fields. And for me, the biggest life journey 00:44:57.280 --> 00:45:00.320 I underwent was a combination between my music 00:45:00.320 --> 00:45:03.139 and my data fields of expertise. So I said, this 00:45:03.139 --> 00:45:07.019 is perfect. I applied and I was accepted. I was 00:45:07.019 --> 00:45:10.480 incredibly shocked that I was. And I gave a TEDx 00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:15.199 talk in August of 2024. It was one of the most 00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:17.800 momentous moments of my life because I looked 00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:21.039 back and I said, I did overcome. that past challenge 00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:23.139 I faced of being shy and introverted. Now I'm 00:45:23.139 --> 00:45:24.860 speaking on a stage to people all around the 00:45:24.860 --> 00:45:27.800 world, and now I hope to inspire and encourage 00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:29.780 others to go on a similar journey for themselves. 00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:36.940 That's amazing. Yeah, I think it was momentous 00:45:36.940 --> 00:45:41.599 both professionally and personally for you. That's 00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:48.559 amazing. What surprised you about the presentation 00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:58.900 process itself? Was there help in collaboration 00:45:58.900 --> 00:46:02.460 from TEDx itself? There was. I don't know about 00:46:02.460 --> 00:46:04.940 all the events, but for the one I spoke at, TEDx 00:46:04.940 --> 00:46:07.960 Logan Circle in DC, there was a tremendous amount 00:46:07.960 --> 00:46:10.500 of support. I worked with a team of three or 00:46:10.500 --> 00:46:13.920 four coaches who listened to my talk, gave feedback, 00:46:14.090 --> 00:46:17.409 That is invaluable. To get that many diverse 00:46:17.409 --> 00:46:19.630 perspectives in one room, letting you know how 00:46:19.630 --> 00:46:21.989 you can improve, I was very grateful for that. 00:46:22.030 --> 00:46:24.449 It lets me take the talk to another level I didn't 00:46:24.449 --> 00:46:28.050 even expect. And to get perspectives about the 00:46:28.050 --> 00:46:30.670 pacing, about the content, about if they understood 00:46:30.670 --> 00:46:33.969 it, that was so important because when we do 00:46:33.969 --> 00:46:36.269 anything, whether it's communication or something 00:46:36.269 --> 00:46:40.369 technical, we get lost in the weeds because it's 00:46:40.369 --> 00:46:43.679 too close to us. We did it. So we can't be objective 00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:46.639 anymore and say, here's what's wrong. I was able 00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:48.500 to see that with the feedback from my coaches. 00:46:48.980 --> 00:46:51.119 And I would recommend for anyone who's working 00:46:51.119 --> 00:46:53.380 on communication or presentation, get as much 00:46:53.380 --> 00:46:57.260 feedback as possible. It's amazing. What's one 00:46:57.260 --> 00:47:01.340 feedback that you have brought with you from 00:47:01.340 --> 00:47:04.599 your TEDx talk? The biggest piece of feedback 00:47:04.599 --> 00:47:08.460 that I got was related to managing my nerves 00:47:08.460 --> 00:47:12.860 and pacing. Because I was so nervous to impress 00:47:12.860 --> 00:47:14.880 these coaches. This was the first time I presented 00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:17.519 to such an audience in a private setting I said, 00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:20.019 okay, I need to impress them. I need to knock 00:47:20.019 --> 00:47:22.960 their socks off with how good this is So I spoke 00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:25.579 so fast They could barely understand what I was 00:47:25.579 --> 00:47:28.360 saying and I I reflected on the situation and 00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:30.980 I said yes I did not manage my nerves properly. 00:47:32.239 --> 00:47:34.260 I Teach this to my clients but to implement to 00:47:34.260 --> 00:47:37.380 myself. That's my blind spot. So I worked on 00:47:37.380 --> 00:47:40.170 myself. I worked on regulating my emotions were 00:47:40.170 --> 00:47:42.590 worked on rehearsing the speech so well that 00:47:42.590 --> 00:47:45.289 I could say it even now to you probably if I 00:47:45.289 --> 00:47:48.309 was required to. And with all that preparation, 00:47:48.710 --> 00:47:50.929 emotionally and content wise, I was able to go 00:47:50.929 --> 00:47:53.630 on the stage on the big day and not have those 00:47:53.630 --> 00:47:55.909 nerves and speak at the pace that I wanted. So 00:47:55.909 --> 00:47:57.809 that's the piece of feedback I'll always carry 00:47:57.809 --> 00:48:02.190 with me. That's amazing and super important for 00:48:02.190 --> 00:48:12.150 public speaking. Great. And how has it impacted 00:48:12.150 --> 00:48:17.630 your, how did the TEDx talk impact your business 00:48:17.630 --> 00:48:22.090 and career? For instance, I think it's been more 00:48:22.090 --> 00:48:25.469 than a year now. I wouldn't be able to say it's 00:48:25.469 --> 00:48:27.789 direct impact from a causal standpoint, but I 00:48:27.789 --> 00:48:30.070 will say it has given a degree of recognition 00:48:30.070 --> 00:48:32.690 and something that I teach when it comes to communication, 00:48:32.869 --> 00:48:35.329 especially when you're talking to leaders. It's 00:48:35.329 --> 00:48:37.969 important to get social validation. TEDx for 00:48:37.969 --> 00:48:40.269 me is a form of social validation. It's saying, 00:48:40.329 --> 00:48:43.809 Hey, this external organization trusts this person 00:48:43.809 --> 00:48:46.170 in the same way. When we communicate to leaders, 00:48:46.230 --> 00:48:48.789 we would like to demonstrate the same. It's not 00:48:48.789 --> 00:48:50.969 just me telling you, this is my recommendation. 00:48:51.130 --> 00:48:54.699 I have people who you trust. who are recommending 00:48:54.699 --> 00:48:57.159 this as well. That makes your argument much stronger. 00:48:57.599 --> 00:49:01.039 So I would say that aspect has helped me professionally. 00:49:01.219 --> 00:49:03.199 And that's what I also recommend to people who 00:49:03.199 --> 00:49:06.199 are pursuing something similar. Yeah. Yeah, I 00:49:06.199 --> 00:49:11.099 think social proof is an important part of our 00:49:11.099 --> 00:49:20.280 work. And I think one of the topics that we have 00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:27.929 is AI, like we touched on it before. There's 00:49:27.929 --> 00:49:38.389 so much talk about AI. Where does AI help in 00:49:38.389 --> 00:49:40.989 technical communication? I know we touched on 00:49:40.989 --> 00:49:46.210 this a little bit before, but generally, I know 00:49:46.210 --> 00:49:51.639 you said think of AI as your partners. How do 00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:56.980 you use it on a daily basis? For me, I'm currently 00:49:56.980 --> 00:49:59.880 writing a book on communication skills and influence 00:49:59.880 --> 00:50:03.260 skills, persuasion skills. And I am often asked 00:50:03.260 --> 00:50:05.579 when I bring this up, how much are you using 00:50:05.579 --> 00:50:09.420 AI to write the book? And my answer to them is 00:50:09.420 --> 00:50:13.460 as little as possible. The only instance I'll 00:50:13.460 --> 00:50:16.320 use AI is if I'm stuck brainstorming. Then I 00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:18.559 go to AI and say, hey, I'm stuck. I'm trying 00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:21.949 to think of X thing. give me some ideas, then 00:50:21.949 --> 00:50:24.269 I am the one who chooses the idea eventually. 00:50:24.469 --> 00:50:26.449 It's still my product, it's still my thought 00:50:26.449 --> 00:50:29.070 process, but I'm using AI to help me get out 00:50:29.070 --> 00:50:32.070 of my blind spot. That's the only thing I will 00:50:32.070 --> 00:50:34.869 ever use AI for in this writing process. I want, 00:50:35.329 --> 00:50:37.110 when I write this book or when I communicate 00:50:37.110 --> 00:50:40.630 to anyone, for it to be my voice entirely. Yes, 00:50:40.630 --> 00:50:43.699 it's going to take longer. AI could make that 00:50:43.699 --> 00:50:46.320 10 times faster, probably. But I want this to 00:50:46.320 --> 00:50:48.800 come from me. I want when people read this book 00:50:48.800 --> 00:50:51.159 for it to feel like a conversation with my thoughts 00:50:51.159 --> 00:50:54.539 and my ideas, not something that's been optimized. 00:50:55.039 --> 00:50:56.440 Yes, it might be more messy, but that's what 00:50:56.440 --> 00:50:59.099 I want. And the same thing would be true for 00:50:59.099 --> 00:51:01.659 when we communicate in business. I would recommend. 00:51:02.110 --> 00:51:04.530 that when you communicate, yes, we can use AI 00:51:04.530 --> 00:51:06.889 to optimize our emails and whatever it is, but 00:51:06.889 --> 00:51:08.590 we have to apply the critical thinking at the 00:51:08.590 --> 00:51:11.289 end to say, yes, I approve of this output or 00:51:11.289 --> 00:51:13.710 no, this no longer sounds like me. We still have 00:51:13.710 --> 00:51:15.789 to be part of the process. That's how I'd recommend 00:51:15.789 --> 00:51:21.349 using AI. Yeah, I think like we talked about 00:51:21.349 --> 00:51:28.590 too. You put it very well where. You're still 00:51:28.590 --> 00:51:30.769 leading the conversation. You're still leading 00:51:30.769 --> 00:51:35.789 the idea space. You're just getting AI to help 00:51:35.789 --> 00:51:42.130 you get unstuck or the last few steps in the 00:51:42.130 --> 00:51:48.110 way, if you need it. If you just use AI in the 00:51:48.110 --> 00:51:51.309 beginning, you could kind of use AI to brainstorm, 00:51:51.309 --> 00:51:54.269 but you still have to pick something that resonates 00:51:54.269 --> 00:51:57.260 with you the most. and then develop on your own 00:51:57.260 --> 00:52:00.539 versus just use AI everywhere. Absolutely. I 00:52:00.539 --> 00:52:04.179 think one dangerous way to view AI is don't use 00:52:04.179 --> 00:52:06.820 it at all because it's clear it's going to stay 00:52:06.820 --> 00:52:10.199 here for a very long time and it would put you 00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:12.199 at a disadvantage to not know how to use it. 00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:16.119 But use it well and wisely. I relate AI or any 00:52:16.119 --> 00:52:18.579 other technology like social media similar to 00:52:18.579 --> 00:52:21.079 something like junk food. Yes, it's nice to indulge 00:52:21.079 --> 00:52:23.099 in it once in a while, but don't have it all 00:52:23.099 --> 00:52:26.320 the time. be proactive about using it purposefully 00:52:26.320 --> 00:52:29.739 and don't get lost in using it all the time. 00:52:31.119 --> 00:52:37.360 Amazing. Really good and important tip for viewers. 00:52:41.099 --> 00:52:52.800 Let me find my notes. So I know we've been talking 00:52:52.800 --> 00:53:02.699 about originality or authenticity and AI. What's 00:53:02.699 --> 00:53:06.579 the best way to, I think that's a struggle that 00:53:06.579 --> 00:53:09.820 a lot of people will have, right? So how do I 00:53:09.820 --> 00:53:15.519 still be authentic when using AI? We talked a 00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:19.420 little bit about, hey, when to use AI, how to 00:53:19.420 --> 00:53:24.000 use AI, are there any things that you see leaders 00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:30.579 doing it the wrong way and some examples of other 00:53:30.579 --> 00:53:33.219 leaders doing it the right way? I would give 00:53:33.219 --> 00:53:35.960 an example that I gave in a recent keynote about 00:53:35.960 --> 00:53:40.239 how to use AI the right way. Rather than thinking 00:53:40.239 --> 00:53:44.880 of it as a way to just simplify manual repetitive 00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:47.429 tasks, Think of it as the thought partner that 00:53:47.429 --> 00:53:50.670 we've been talking about. Have it be that person, 00:53:50.929 --> 00:53:53.449 unjudgmental person in the room who can tell 00:53:53.449 --> 00:53:56.210 you what gaps that you missed. So for example, 00:53:56.269 --> 00:53:58.050 I'll recommend to leaders, if you're going to 00:53:58.050 --> 00:54:01.710 give a presentation, use AI not to design the 00:54:01.710 --> 00:54:04.610 whole thing for you, you can use it to supplement 00:54:04.610 --> 00:54:07.289 what you do. But once you've created the thing, 00:54:07.610 --> 00:54:11.070 ask AI, tell me what I missed. Pretend to be 00:54:11.070 --> 00:54:13.849 my audience. act as my audience of executives 00:54:13.849 --> 00:54:16.329 or technical team, tell me what they would think 00:54:16.329 --> 00:54:19.289 if they heard this presentation. Would they be 00:54:19.289 --> 00:54:21.829 inspired for my call to action? Would they not 00:54:21.829 --> 00:54:25.230 be as inspired? How can I improve my presentation 00:54:25.230 --> 00:54:28.050 to fill in those spaces? That's what AI is really 00:54:28.050 --> 00:54:30.829 good at, is letting you see your blind spots. 00:54:31.929 --> 00:54:38.030 That's a really cool example. Kind of use AI 00:54:38.030 --> 00:54:41.630 as your... sounding board or, you know, get some 00:54:41.630 --> 00:54:46.010 feedback. Because often we don't have access 00:54:46.010 --> 00:54:49.010 to that kind of person in our professional circle, 00:54:49.190 --> 00:54:51.730 someone who will take as much time as they want 00:54:51.730 --> 00:54:54.750 to review our presentation and give honest feedback. 00:54:55.010 --> 00:54:56.909 That's what AI can do. And of course, we have 00:54:56.909 --> 00:54:59.190 to prompt AI and say, hey, be critical with this. 00:54:59.349 --> 00:55:01.590 Don't just give me the nice sweet version that 00:55:01.590 --> 00:55:04.750 you do by default, but be critical with me. That's 00:55:04.750 --> 00:55:07.630 what's really useful. Don't glaze me AI. Yes. 00:55:08.980 --> 00:55:13.840 Yeah, I think prompting is really key to just 00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:18.900 say, hey, do not just agree with me. Be more 00:55:18.900 --> 00:55:22.159 critical. I'm here to learn. Are there specific 00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:27.179 AI tools that you use for communication or is 00:55:27.179 --> 00:55:31.079 ChatGPT or Gemini or Claw one of those help you? 00:55:31.579 --> 00:55:34.780 I'd say when it comes to brainstorming for things 00:55:34.780 --> 00:55:38.469 like my book, I'll use ChatGPT. When it comes 00:55:38.469 --> 00:55:41.550 to teaching AI for communication, I'll work with 00:55:41.550 --> 00:55:43.949 whatever the company has. So one company I worked 00:55:43.949 --> 00:55:47.730 with recently to teach data storytelling, their 00:55:47.730 --> 00:55:51.170 company uses Gemini. So I said, okay, here's 00:55:51.170 --> 00:55:53.929 how you could use Gemini to prompt, create images 00:55:53.929 --> 00:55:56.369 for the data, visualizations that you want, give 00:55:56.369 --> 00:55:58.769 you ideas, not necessarily do all the work for 00:55:58.769 --> 00:56:01.550 you. And that usually is what determines how 00:56:01.550 --> 00:56:05.269 I teach is what the company uses. Yeah, that's 00:56:05.269 --> 00:56:14.769 a really good way to think about it. In your 00:56:14.769 --> 00:56:19.530 mind, what, when a company goes through this 00:56:19.530 --> 00:56:24.889 transition, you go there and tell them the importance 00:56:24.889 --> 00:56:28.909 of communication skills or data, not just data, 00:56:29.030 --> 00:56:35.719 but data storytelling. What does the ideal world 00:56:35.719 --> 00:56:38.579 look like? What changes when communication becomes 00:56:38.579 --> 00:56:43.179 the first -class citizen in a data organization? 00:56:44.500 --> 00:56:46.960 The biggest change I like to see post -training 00:56:46.960 --> 00:56:52.019 is very simple. I want people to have the three 00:56:52.019 --> 00:56:54.739 what's in their communication, not just what 00:56:54.739 --> 00:56:58.019 is going on, which is what communication usually 00:56:58.019 --> 00:57:01.530 stays at, just the data. what it says. I want 00:57:01.530 --> 00:57:04.429 to see in the communication following, I'm also 00:57:04.429 --> 00:57:06.329 telling you why it matters. So I'm providing 00:57:06.329 --> 00:57:08.449 the context we talked about before. Why does 00:57:08.449 --> 00:57:10.809 the data point that I mentioned, why is it so 00:57:10.809 --> 00:57:12.869 significant? And then the last point, the most 00:57:12.869 --> 00:57:15.449 important one, what do we do about it? Often, 00:57:15.909 --> 00:57:17.750 when it comes to data presentation, I see them 00:57:17.750 --> 00:57:20.469 limited to updates. Here is what we found. But 00:57:20.469 --> 00:57:22.489 what's more important, much more aligned with 00:57:22.489 --> 00:57:24.510 leadership is saying not just why it matters, 00:57:24.710 --> 00:57:26.960 but here's what I recommend you do. That's what 00:57:26.960 --> 00:57:29.980 turns data teams from being cost centers to profit 00:57:29.980 --> 00:57:32.320 centers. Now you're actually providing value 00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:36.679 to the business that's forward thinking. Yeah, 00:57:36.679 --> 00:57:39.539 I think that's a really big struggle for data 00:57:39.539 --> 00:57:45.119 teams. We often and now we're being honest when 00:57:45.119 --> 00:57:49.440 we think this, but we think of ourselves as cost 00:57:49.440 --> 00:57:54.880 centers and we are. But the biggest. push or 00:57:54.880 --> 00:57:59.039 biggest goal is to kind of become those profits 00:57:59.039 --> 00:58:02.800 and become those people that go beyond dashboards 00:58:02.800 --> 00:58:07.760 or data pipelines and go to becoming an important 00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:10.780 part of the organization who's kind of delivering 00:58:10.780 --> 00:58:15.039 actual business value versus just being report 00:58:15.039 --> 00:58:20.300 runners or dashboard creators. Data teams have 00:58:20.300 --> 00:58:23.619 such potential. because they have access to information 00:58:23.619 --> 00:58:26.039 from all these departments in the company. They 00:58:26.039 --> 00:58:28.840 can pull creative insights that can dictate how 00:58:28.840 --> 00:58:31.440 companies can improve to a very significant scale. 00:58:32.639 --> 00:58:35.519 I feel bad seeing data teams limited to just 00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:37.340 being call centers because they can be so much 00:58:37.340 --> 00:58:39.639 more. And that's why the skill of storytelling 00:58:39.639 --> 00:58:42.639 and communication I teach, I feel, can really 00:58:42.639 --> 00:58:46.820 assist with that mission. Yeah, especially with, 00:58:46.820 --> 00:58:50.199 like, the theme comes back again and again. some 00:58:50.199 --> 00:58:54.780 of the technical analysis and technical coding 00:58:54.780 --> 00:58:58.019 can be offloaded to AI. So it's becoming more 00:58:58.019 --> 00:59:00.360 democratic, right? So the analysis is becoming 00:59:00.360 --> 00:59:05.360 more democratic. So I think we have to go learn 00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:08.960 the storytelling aspect and not just live in 00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:12.219 the data world because that's becoming, it's 00:59:12.219 --> 00:59:15.119 not going to go away, of course, but it's becoming 00:59:15.119 --> 00:59:17.989 more accessible to everybody. right, which is 00:59:17.989 --> 00:59:23.590 great, which is amazing. So we have to go to 00:59:23.590 --> 00:59:26.670 other areas, data storytelling, building consensus, 00:59:27.050 --> 00:59:31.010 build, you know, collaborating. So I think those 00:59:31.010 --> 00:59:35.829 human skills, soft skills, what we refer to as 00:59:35.829 --> 00:59:37.869 soft skills are going to become more important 00:59:37.869 --> 00:59:42.650 as this happens. Absolutely. AI has dominated 00:59:42.650 --> 00:59:45.250 the digital space. It's got that hands down. 00:59:46.380 --> 00:59:48.840 need to dominate the non -digital spaces in between. 00:59:49.199 --> 00:59:55.840 That's our goal. That's very profound. We have 00:59:55.840 --> 00:59:59.300 to lead the human connections. We have to lead 00:59:59.300 --> 01:00:08.880 the human aspects of our business building. What's 01:00:08.880 --> 01:00:15.860 your vision for leaders who can pair inside with 01:00:15.860 --> 01:00:21.159 influence. What does it look like when they do 01:00:21.159 --> 01:00:25.699 that? I'll give an example of what this could 01:00:25.699 --> 01:00:28.199 look like. It would boil down to the point we 01:00:28.199 --> 01:00:30.280 talked about before when it comes to meeting 01:00:30.280 --> 01:00:33.239 an audience where they are. That's when you can 01:00:33.239 --> 01:00:35.500 deliver an insight and have influence. There 01:00:35.500 --> 01:00:37.880 was one talk I was giving to open a conference 01:00:37.880 --> 01:00:39.940 and it was on presentation skills, something 01:00:39.940 --> 01:00:42.320 that I usually talk about to great length in 01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:44.480 many, many settings. What would have been easy 01:00:44.480 --> 01:00:47.260 to do is just give the same presentation I always 01:00:47.260 --> 01:00:49.619 do. But something that I promised to myself early 01:00:49.619 --> 01:00:52.639 on when I started public speaking is don't go 01:00:52.639 --> 01:00:54.820 on autopilot because every audience needs something 01:00:54.820 --> 01:00:57.099 different. So I customized this presentation 01:00:57.099 --> 01:00:59.760 to the audience. It was a group of audit professionals, 01:00:59.860 --> 01:01:01.719 a field I didn't know much about beforehand. 01:01:01.980 --> 01:01:05.139 So I did the work to understand what this audience's 01:01:05.139 --> 01:01:07.039 pains and priorities are, as we talked about 01:01:07.039 --> 01:01:09.780 earlier in the podcast. And that let me know 01:01:09.780 --> 01:01:13.050 what case studies and examples to include. delivering 01:01:13.050 --> 01:01:15.309 that presentation was that much more impactful 01:01:15.309 --> 01:01:18.289 because it used things they know and care about. 01:01:18.429 --> 01:01:20.130 And I was approached by people afterwards who 01:01:20.130 --> 01:01:22.590 said, I can't believe you don't have an audit 01:01:22.590 --> 01:01:25.949 background. And that showed to me that the key 01:01:25.949 --> 01:01:28.210 to influence really is speaking people's language. 01:01:28.289 --> 01:01:30.329 That's how you connect. And that's how you have 01:01:30.329 --> 01:01:37.309 an impact. That's a really, yeah, I think. That's 01:01:37.309 --> 01:01:39.309 one thing that I'm going to bring with me from 01:01:39.309 --> 01:01:41.650 this conversation, take with me from this conversation, 01:01:41.849 --> 01:01:47.849 right? So it's, how do you humanize your analysis? 01:01:48.110 --> 01:01:54.369 How do you, I think probably providing an example, 01:01:54.630 --> 01:01:58.849 having a key character, what we talk about in 01:01:58.849 --> 01:02:01.769 filmmaking or, you know, what we learn in filmmaking 01:02:01.769 --> 01:02:05.820 and storytelling outside of. our professional 01:02:05.820 --> 01:02:10.260 corporate jobs is key, right? So you have a main 01:02:10.260 --> 01:02:14.139 character, you're taking the audience through 01:02:14.139 --> 01:02:18.519 their journey and from their lens. I think that 01:02:18.519 --> 01:02:25.719 would be so powerful in addition to the data 01:02:25.719 --> 01:02:29.159 which we're all so good at, right? So hey, this 01:02:29.159 --> 01:02:32.340 is happening. And this is not just an anecdote, 01:02:32.659 --> 01:02:36.860 one single example, but that ties your, you can 01:02:36.860 --> 01:02:41.940 bring your emotional core and your data insights. 01:02:42.099 --> 01:02:43.820 Hey, this is not just happening to one person, 01:02:43.820 --> 01:02:47.920 but this is happening at a scale that is not 01:02:47.920 --> 01:02:52.639 just a couple of handful of stories. Exactly. 01:02:52.800 --> 01:02:56.119 One tip I usually give that's a little bit. different 01:02:56.119 --> 01:02:58.820 from the usual to work on communication is to 01:02:58.820 --> 01:03:01.980 read stories or observe yourself as you're consuming 01:03:01.980 --> 01:03:04.019 entertainment. We all consume entertainment to 01:03:04.019 --> 01:03:06.260 some extent. We watch movies, we're on TikTok, 01:03:06.820 --> 01:03:09.300 we go on YouTube to watch longer form videos. 01:03:09.639 --> 01:03:12.199 When you watch those things, it's important to 01:03:12.199 --> 01:03:15.650 reflect what is catching my attention. It's usually 01:03:15.650 --> 01:03:18.130 going to be some character going through a pain, 01:03:18.210 --> 01:03:20.570 transforming as a result of the journey and emerging 01:03:20.570 --> 01:03:22.670 with some impact and lesson learned at the end. 01:03:22.849 --> 01:03:25.150 That's what engages our attention. The reason 01:03:25.150 --> 01:03:28.090 why audiences often tune out and just get bored 01:03:28.090 --> 01:03:30.090 listening to data presentations is it doesn't 01:03:30.090 --> 01:03:32.610 have any of that. We need to bring those lessons 01:03:32.610 --> 01:03:35.449 from other media, from storytelling, from videos, 01:03:35.769 --> 01:03:38.170 to the data world so that we can not only say 01:03:38.170 --> 01:03:40.389 something important, but make sure that people 01:03:40.389 --> 01:03:42.929 understand it and want to take action on it. 01:03:43.469 --> 01:03:49.699 Yeah. I think that's really important. Do you 01:03:49.699 --> 01:03:55.300 see your 3W framework as kind of the three -part 01:03:55.300 --> 01:03:59.420 structure? Is that analogous in some ways? I'd 01:03:59.420 --> 01:04:03.119 say it's similar but not complete in the sense 01:04:03.119 --> 01:04:05.559 that you could structure a presentation to say 01:04:05.559 --> 01:04:07.780 what's going on, why it matters, what to do about 01:04:07.780 --> 01:04:11.159 it. But a framework I use to teach storytelling 01:04:11.159 --> 01:04:15.329 is more along these lines. You start with the 01:04:15.329 --> 01:04:18.630 context. So you talk about the data. You build 01:04:18.630 --> 01:04:21.869 up to a cusp. So you talk about, in a sense, 01:04:21.949 --> 01:04:24.030 why it matters, why this is so important. You 01:04:24.030 --> 01:04:27.329 indicate the problem and its agitation so people 01:04:27.329 --> 01:04:29.429 feel compelled to act on it. And then you relieve 01:04:29.429 --> 01:04:31.789 that tension with the conclusion and the solution. 01:04:32.849 --> 01:04:34.949 So yes, the three what structure gives you the 01:04:34.949 --> 01:04:37.389 ingredients to do that, but organizing it in 01:04:37.389 --> 01:04:41.710 the shape of an arc. with the narrative momentum 01:04:41.710 --> 01:04:43.630 and the emotional momentum going to a peak and 01:04:43.630 --> 01:04:45.369 then subsiding, that's what creates a compelling 01:04:45.369 --> 01:04:51.630 story. That's really promising for me. Yeah, 01:04:51.650 --> 01:04:56.889 I'm going to take that with me. I know we're 01:04:56.889 --> 01:05:00.789 coming to the top of the hour, so this is one 01:05:00.789 --> 01:05:05.929 of our staple questions here in dream state. 01:05:08.030 --> 01:05:11.630 AI, right? So if money and resources were not 01:05:11.630 --> 01:05:17.150 constraints, what kind of AI models or data models 01:05:17.150 --> 01:05:20.329 would you like, would you build and what would 01:05:20.329 --> 01:05:24.150 you do with it? I'd give to every leader an AI 01:05:24.150 --> 01:05:28.130 model that they could type in what they're working 01:05:28.130 --> 01:05:30.530 on, especially when it comes to communication, 01:05:30.809 --> 01:05:32.949 and get the critical honest feedback that we 01:05:32.949 --> 01:05:35.079 talked about earlier. That, I think, is one of 01:05:35.079 --> 01:05:37.440 the most invaluable things that we don't often 01:05:37.440 --> 01:05:39.460 have enough of, is critical, honest feedback. 01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:42.960 I want AI to fill that gap for us, unjudgmentally. 01:05:43.619 --> 01:05:50.400 That's amazing. And I think there's a large consensus 01:05:50.400 --> 01:05:54.559 that, hey, I don't want to see myself. I don't 01:05:54.559 --> 01:05:57.400 want to look at myself after I've recorded. So 01:05:57.400 --> 01:06:00.699 I think we're doing a disservice to ourselves. 01:06:01.900 --> 01:06:05.119 It's horrible. to begin with, but I think we 01:06:05.119 --> 01:06:08.599 need to get over that hump. Yes. It's, I frame 01:06:08.599 --> 01:06:12.039 it usually like this. If you record yourself, 01:06:12.320 --> 01:06:14.659 you're able to see exactly what your audience 01:06:14.659 --> 01:06:16.579 is going to see. You're able to hear exactly 01:06:16.579 --> 01:06:18.860 what they're going to hear. Why not make that 01:06:18.860 --> 01:06:21.719 an honest reflection of yourself? That way you 01:06:21.719 --> 01:06:24.800 can show all of you in your best form to your 01:06:24.800 --> 01:06:28.480 audience. Recording is uncomfortable. Yes, but 01:06:28.480 --> 01:06:33.500 essential. So you're saying watching just myself, 01:06:33.500 --> 01:06:37.360 uh, recorded videos of myself is not really narcissistic. 01:06:37.500 --> 01:06:41.480 It's just learning. Okay. Maybe it could be both, 01:06:41.820 --> 01:06:45.980 but yeah. But I think it's really key because 01:06:45.980 --> 01:06:50.039 that's a really direct form of feedback that 01:06:50.039 --> 01:06:54.159 we can get for free in today's world. Right. 01:06:54.400 --> 01:06:57.000 So I think it's important to take advantage of 01:06:57.000 --> 01:07:04.030 that. Um, No, I think I appreciate you coming 01:07:04.030 --> 01:07:07.889 in and giving us so much insights about data 01:07:07.889 --> 01:07:10.429 storytelling, telling us about your experience 01:07:10.429 --> 01:07:14.570 with TEDx. And this was really fascinating and 01:07:14.570 --> 01:07:19.510 enlightening to me. Is there anything we've not 01:07:19.510 --> 01:07:23.690 covered that you wanted to add to our data and 01:07:23.690 --> 01:07:26.969 AI community? I think we covered a really good 01:07:27.150 --> 01:07:29.809 Series of topics the thing I'd want to leave 01:07:29.809 --> 01:07:32.849 listeners with and viewers with is that last 01:07:32.849 --> 01:07:37.550 tip we gave to record yourself The only way that 01:07:37.550 --> 01:07:39.570 you're going to get better at something is if 01:07:39.570 --> 01:07:42.110 you do it So I know a lot of people ask me what 01:07:42.110 --> 01:07:44.269 books can I read on communication? What videos 01:07:44.269 --> 01:07:47.260 should I watch I tell them? You need to practice. 01:07:47.619 --> 01:07:49.300 It's like learning swimming. You're not going 01:07:49.300 --> 01:07:51.079 to learn swimming if you read about swimming 01:07:51.079 --> 01:07:53.119 or you watch people swim. You're going to learn 01:07:53.119 --> 01:07:54.980 swimming when you actually go in the water and 01:07:54.980 --> 01:07:57.059 you swim. So I tell people you need to swim. 01:07:57.199 --> 01:07:59.199 You need to practice communication, watch yourself 01:07:59.199 --> 01:08:01.099 back, get critical, honest feedback. That's the 01:08:01.099 --> 01:08:05.760 way to improve. That's amazing. Yeah. No, thank 01:08:05.760 --> 01:08:11.699 you so much. Appreciate you, Chris. It was fascinating 01:08:11.699 --> 01:08:14.980 and I had so much fun. Thank you so much. the 01:08:14.980 --> 01:08:15.500 opportunity.