Hey there. Welcome to Data Democracy, a podcast
where we explore ways to make data and AI more
accessible to everyone. I'm really excited about
today's guest. We have Christopher Chin joining
us. Chris is a communications coach, data storyteller,
and a TEDx speaker, and someone who's doing really
important work for people in data and tech. He
focuses on A problem a lot of us know too well.
Super smart, technically strong people with great
ideas, but the ideas don't always land because
of communication. I've actually been following
Chris's work for a couple years now, and we've
exchanged a few messages on LinkedIn over time.
The work he's doing is something that I personally
relate to. English is not my first language,
and growing up in India with British. version
of English. I still spend a lot of time second
-guessing the words I use. I've always admired
the simplicity and the directness of communication
here in the US, but so his work really is helpful
to me personally. Chris is the founder of Hidden
Speaker, where he helps people turn great ideas
into insights and messages that actually land.
This is only becoming more important as the world
of AI is taking over, and AI does all the heavy
lifting in terms of coding. So we're going to
talk about communication as a real skill, storytelling
with data, building trust and consensus, and
of course as TEDx experience, and just basically
what it makes to... take your great idea and
make it land. So Chris is grounded, he's amazing.
We're going to have fun. Chris, welcome to Data
Democracy. Thank you so much, Vin. Really appreciate
it. No, I'm so grateful to have you on. I know
we've been talking to each other for a couple
of years over LinkedIn and other places, but
I'm super excited. Likewise. Awesome. Yeah, let's
start with your story, your path in tech and
founding your company. But where did you get
started? And tell me your story. Absolutely.
My career journey began away from tech. Before
that, my focus was on music composition. Totally
different from what I eventually became. But
at my core, I'm a creative person. I'm an experimental
person. I like brainstorming. I like seeing different
creative ways to bring things together. And music
was a perfect outlet for me to express that.
Of course, music is also a difficult career to
break into. You need to not only have the talent,
but also the connections to elevate yourself
and make the big films and short films and soundtracks
that you want. So it wasn't as successful for
me as a career because I was super introverted
and shy. When I went into tech, I thought it
was a perfect fit because now I found a career
where there were many people like me, many people
that were also shy and introverted, that focused
on the technical stuff. I felt perfectly at home.
But what I soon began to realize was communication
was essential here too. That we could have phenomenal
technical work that's pristine, that's precise,
but if you don't communicate it with... emotion
with impact with an idea of its significance,
then it's going to fall flat when it lands in
the in the leaders ears. So what I decided to
do for myself was to work on this skill to become
masterful at it so that I could advance my career.
And when I reached a point where I could then
give back to the community and share everything
I learned, that's when I decided to start my
own company. And that became my mission since
then. Amazing. I think it's It's it's really
becoming more important as we Realize hey You
know machine can take over some of the technical
stuff. So I think building consensus Communicating
is only getting more important. And of course,
I look up to you know leaders like Simon Sinek
Vin Zhang and honestly you to you know, we're
kind of leading the pack in terms of hey, we
just in business, and also specifically in data,
where we talk about it less and less in terms
of communication. It's really important, but
I appreciate the background. Why is this gap
especially pronounced in technical roles, but
more so in data? What do you think that is? I
think there are a variety of reasons for it,
but one pronounced one for me is if you think
of it spatially, for us as technical and data
folks, we like to focus on the really nitty gritty
stuff, the making sure every detail is correct,
every comma is in place in the code, whatever
it is. But in order to have impact on leadership,
we need to also see the bigger picture. So you
can imagine in that spatial world that Trying
to paint you need to have the ground to walk
on that's really solid You need to have really
accurate and precise code or product or whatever
it is But you also need the sky and the stars
to give you direction You need to inform leadership
not only what you've done But why does it matter
to them and what should they do about it when
you have all those pieces? And you've created
the full world for them. Then that's when you
have impact That's amazing. Yeah, I mean I've
personally Struggle with this and getting better
at it because so like you said we're so in the
nitty -gritty and then when you have to talk
to others you have to kind of wear a different
hand become a different person and actually not
think about a nitty -gritties and think about
the best way to tell your story and and a lot
of times we've I've realized and tell me if this
works for you But we as data people go so much
want to communicate all the details. But it's
I've learned over the years that that's not the
key. It's like make them ask questions is kind
of the tool. So introduce it, introduce it, introduce
ideas, make sure that people are intrigued and
come back with more questions. I think that that's
something I've learned over the years. Absolutely.
I'm working with a client now, and one of her
first questions to me was, how do I know how
much detail to give? And it's a complex question.
And the answer is it depends on your audience.
If we are speaking to technical people, then
we can give a lot of detail because that's familiar
to them. They're interested in it. But if we're
talking to leadership who is not so much interested
in the implementation, they're more interested
in the strategy and execution, then we need to
focus more high level. So it depends on your
audience. And as you said, we have to listen.
We have to observe their reaction to us. If they're
starting to get overwhelmed and confused, then
we stop. We change direction. But if it's just
right and they're eager and listening, then that's
the level that we go at. Yeah, absolutely. I
think I think we have that's a underrated skill
to know your audience and speak to them, meet
them where they are in terms of technical details
or even the project in general. I really like
that. Do you talk a lot about communication as
a teachable skill? Why the work will speak for
itself? career limiting belief Can you can you
tell us more about that? Yeah as an analogy you
can imagine when you're writing code like sequel
or Python Whatever it is. You need to use the
right language to speak to the computer. Otherwise,
it won't understand what to do in the same way
when we communicate to people we have to use
the right language and that doesn't just mean
English or Chinese or Spanish, it means we have
to use the language that the brain understands
the best, and that language is emotion. Of course,
logic plays a part in decision making, but emotion
plays a really primary role as well. There were
studies done by a researcher called Antonio de
Mazio. He found that when he looked at patients'
brains that had damage to the emotional part,
those patients were not able to make decisions
very easily, like even what to eat or what clothes
to wear. It became very difficult and that revealed
emotion to play a central part in decision making.
If you don't have emotion, then you logically
try to analyze every single option possible and
that takes forever. Emotion lets you narrow down
to exactly what you feel is best. That's not
always the best technically from a logical standpoint,
but that feeling allows you to finally make your
choice. So in order to have impact, we need emotion.
That's very important. And yeah, I think the
brain wants to take the path of least resistance
and emotion is a hack that allows it to focus
on what's important, right? So we have, we're
processing so much information every day and
more so now with TikToks and Instagram reels
and everything. So I think, and that's where
you kind of see emotions being highlighted everywhere,
right? In your newsfeed and your TikTok and everywhere.
So I think we need to, we need to bring that
in our work, but put it into a better use, you
know, more intentional and more altruistic. Hey,
this is storytelling with data, not conceding
or, you know, getting more views. yeah the difficult
part is we live in a world where people understand
emotion is what makes people pay attention so
in every kind of media they're capitalizing on
that tiktoks as you said or short form videos
they have at the very beginning, the most emotionally
alarming thing to grab you in. That's not necessarily
the most ethical approach always. And especially
in business, we want to make sure we're doing
things ethically, but also doing things purposefully
and intentionally. As you said, we're not just
using emotion to sell or whatever it is. We're
using emotion to show people how we feel and
then using that as an invitation for them to
feel something similar. Yeah. Yeah. I think we
can, we can definitely learn from other aspects
of life and apply that to, you know, how do we
make our jobs better? 100 percent. What does
it mean to treat communication like a structured
and learnable discipline? Something I found interesting
when people try to learn a new skill is if it's
technical, we approach it from a technical standpoint,
from a very structured standpoint. We say, okay,
I'm going to learn how to code. I'm going to
go to this website and go into their environment.
I'll type out the code. I'll test things out,
get feedback, see how I'm doing and improve.
But with communication, it's very different.
We don't seek the same technical way of learning.
We just talk and then we don't seek feedback.
We don't seek improvement unless someone says
to us, you need to work on communication skills.
I think that's a big tragedy. because then people
won't work on communication to a large extent.
We'll go our entire lives talking the same way
and never knowing how to improve. So the way
that I recommend communicating and learning communication
is always seeking as much feedback as possible.
Of course, in business, people are polite. They
don't always want to give that feedback. But
that's why having a coach is often sometimes
necessary as a mentor or a guide to tell you,
here's where you have some gaps. Here's where
you can enhance that, tweak that, and then become
overall. better and more masterful with your
communication. That's really key. Do you think
there are some tips, quick tips like the rule
of three or something like that that you could
share with the audience? The biggest tip I would
give ties back to our earlier conversation about
knowing your audience. Speak their language.
Before you talk to anyone, take the time to understand
two things. What are their pains? And what are
their priorities? If you understand their pains,
that's what people care most about. They want
to get rid of the pain, alleviate it. Then if
you address that as the very first thing you
have their attention in a meaningful way, then
priorities, where do they want to go? So you
have this low point of pain, you have this high
point of priority. And if your communication
bridges that gap, that's something really solid.
What makes data Making data sing you looks like
I know you talked about this in your TEDx talk
and other places What is the concept and you
talked about it a little bit? But can you tell
more about it in terms of real -life setting
and how can real executives make data sing? Of
course, it's the subject of my TEDx talk and
it's that we need both data and emotion Which
creates music together in order to have impact
And I tied this in the talk to Daniel Kahneman's
theory. He's a famous economist, I want to say,
or he was a researcher as well. And his major
theory was the dual processing theory of mind,
which states there are two modes of thought.
One is a quick and intuitive mode, the emotional
mode. That's very instinctual based on feelings
and sensations. And there's also the slower and
more logical mode that we use to make analytical
decisions. Once you have both working together,
that's how you really impact and connect with
an audience. So in my talk, I talk about how
when you present data, of course you need that
level of the logical bit. Here's what's going
on, but you also need to connect that to the
emotional part. Why does it matter? What do we
need to do about it? As an example of that in
an executive setting, early on in my career,
when I was learning data storytelling, I was
tasked with analyzing some data for the Department
of Transportation. My big role was to publicize
the Department's work to the public, get them
interested in what we did. I analyzed some data
related to kids going to school. And I found
some analysis about certain modes being more
popular than others I presented to the executive.
And they said, that's not a story. I said, how
could this not be a story? I'm talking about
the different modes of transportation. They said,
you haven't included human beings in this story.
All you focused on is the data. and the transportation
modes. And I said, that's when it hit me, I had
my light bulb moments. I said, oh, it's not good
enough to put data into a structure. That's not
a story. To be a story, you need relatable characters
so that I can connect to it. I'm analyzing data
about kids going to school, but I haven't even
talked about the kids who are going to school.
I need to include that. So I did more analysis
and I found an interesting story related to lower
income families who take their kids to school.
By and large, the majority of lower -income families
in that analysis many, many years ago had private
vehicles. However, those families did not use
private vehicles to take their kids to school.
Most of the time, those kids took the school
bus, so I said, there's something interesting
there. Further analysis revealed a suspicion
of mine, which was, yes, those families have
private vehicles, but they may not have the time
and luxury to take kids to school despite that.
So that's something really interesting. We can
connect with that. Here are these kids who need
to get to school. All kids need to get to school.
But some families are limited in their ability
to achieve that. That became the story. That's
what impressed the executive. And in all the
future situations I had, I found continually,
it's when you include human beings in the story,
connect that with the data that you have something
very powerful. That is super powerful and something
that's... I don't see that's been used in the
business, right? So how do you, I mean, we all
have customers, whether, you know, and customers,
or even if you're just dealing with internal
customers, that you have a human connection there.
There's a, every day we go to work, we're solving
human problems, right? So I think we need to
bring those human stories along to the analysis.
to make your story resonate more. Exactly. I
was working with another client who was preparing
a presentation with data, and I gave a similar
argument to them that my executive gave to me.
I said, hey, there's a lot of good data here,
but there's not yet a story because we need human
beings. And their data was related to how many
people have clicked on this part of the site.
And that was very analytical and very important.
But I said, we need to also tie the customer.
How does this impact people? So they updated
their story to say, these are the people who
are clicking on our site because they're interested
in buying something, but they're experiencing
a friction. They're not able to find what they
want. What we need to do is update the website
so that people can find the information they're
looking for and not get confused. So they changed
a certain button. That became the story. It's
so important to not forget whatever data we're
working with, they're human somewhere in the
value chain to include. Yeah. That's so super
key. Yeah, I mean, I think just pulling in, you
know, maybe a customer service call explaining
that in the beginning of your presentation could
add so much depth and relate ability to your
analysis and presentation. That's something I'm
going to borrow from this conversation. Amazing.
I have never thought of it that way, but it makes
so much sense once you talk about it. Yeah, it's
easy when we work in tech to just focus on our
area of expertise, which is the numbers. But
then we need to remember there are people involved
in all aspects of business. That's what business
is all about. I keep coming back to this, but
this, your work is only getting more important
as We had there's so much focus on AI and you
know with With AI can do the analysis like AI
can give you You know analysis at scale, right?
So I think I think bringing in the human element
is gonna be super important and I think I think
our Jobs as data leaders are gonna be more about
building consensus selling ideas Hypothesizing
and proving Something with With these I you know,
human connections is going to be more important
than ever before Yeah, something that I've been
thinking about a lot I'm currently writing an
article about how AI is impacting the way that
we communicate and something that I've considered
is AI has made it possible to accelerate and
optimize the way we write emails, that we write
text messages, Slack messages. But what it cannot
yet optimize is our verbal communication to each
other. That's the thing that people are going
to seek. Because when an executive is going to
make a high -stakes decision, they're not going
to go to their AI and say, what should I do?
They're going to talk to people in the room and
say, what should I do? And listen to them. The
ability of those people to speak on the spot
clearly and concisely. with their area of expertise
and their voice spontaneously is going to determine
what that executive does and who that executive
trusts. So verbal communication on the spot speaking
spontaneous impromptu speaking is going to be
even more important as AI continues to proliferate
in the workplace. Yeah, absolutely. And like
I said, English is not my first language. So
initially when Chad GPT came along, I'm like,
okay, I can just use this, at least in my emails
and all of that, but I soon realized it kind
of takes away something, maybe the soul of the
communication, right? So although it makes it
really easy, it also takes away a little bit
of humanity in a lot of ways, or a little bit
of meaning in the email. So I think it's really
important for us to How do you balance that?
So if you're struggling with grammar or sentence
structure, use that to kind of think about how
you present it versus just dumping it into chat
GPT and sending that as an email or like you
said, preparing to talk to your executive in
a verbal communication setting in a meeting.
It's a delicate balance how much you use AI to
dictate how your conversation is going to be.
And also how much AI cannot help you when you're
talking to people face to face. I recommend AI
usually as a partner and not as a crutch or a
replacement for you. What I see too often these
days is a lot of professionals using it for everything.
to write a script for their entire presentation,
to generate all the slides, then where are you
at Abor and all that? But as you indicated, there
is a way to balance that and to use it as a partner.
If you are trying to use it to refresh on your
understanding of the language to make sure you
get something correct, it's a good reference,
but it should not replace everything that you
do. I'm working with someone now who is a non
-native English speaker, and her question to
me was, how should I structure my sentences if
I'm unfamiliar with the grammar like a native
English speaker is and I said the thing that
I found with her in her particular case was she
was trying to sound more expert and more authoritative
because she wanted to impress and that's the
thing I want people to avoid I don't want you
to speak in a more elevated way just to fit in
and just to sound better Speak like yourself,
what you're comfortable with, and that's what
will come naturally. So I said to her, a very
concise way to communicate that everyone will
appreciate is just say, subject, verb, and object.
I am doing this. That's very clear. Use short,
concise sentences. Executives don't want to hear
you going on and on and on about different things
in tangential directions with complicated sentence
structure. Stick simple, speak naturally, and
use ChatGPT as you need to update that and reference
it. But... don't use it to completely replace
what you're trying to say. No, 100%. I think,
I think it resonates with me a lot because early
on in my career, I kind of did that, right? So
hey, English is not my most strongest suit. And
also, I mean, even technically, I wasn't really
good. So you tend to use big words or big hard
technical terms just so you can come across as
an expert. But people can tell one, but also
it doesn't feel natural. Right. So I think over
the years. Communicating and relating to the
person, like you said before. whoever they are,
whether it's an executive or a product leader
or a engineer or a customer care person. The
goal is to communicate your ideas and not to
sound impressive. Because if you do that well,
if the work speaks for itself, when you communicate,
if the ideas can get through, that's more impressive
than using big words and I'll add to that and
I'll say when we're speaking to people we can
at a very instinctual level tell if you're being
authentic and genuine and something related to
that is the delay that happens when we speak
If people try to talk in a very complicated,
expert fashion, there's going to be a large delay
between their thought and then their actual execution.
And that will make the person feel, oh, maybe
they're not being completely transparent in what
they're trying to express to me. Just speaking
naturally, intuitively, is what makes people
feel, okay, this person is just speaking what's
on their mind, what they feel. They're not trying
to hide something from me. Yeah, that's a really...
I hadn't thought about that, but yeah, that sounds
very true. Amazing. Let's talk about building
consensus, right? So I think it's becoming more
important in this world of unless you're a CEO
or the board of a company, I would suggest and
I would hope not everybody is doing this, but
being Just saying, hey, this is what I want and
just go do this is not a really good way to lead,
whether it's leading your team or leading your
peers or managing upwards. I think building consensus
and making a case for your ideas are really key.
What are some of your... tips or things that
you've learned about building consensus, bringing
people along. I give a tip regarding the difference
between passive, aggressive, and assertive communication.
I'll tell a story related to this. I was working
with a client and her major concern for me was
her struggle with speaking on the spot. And the
reason she had a struggle speaking on the spot
was she was afraid of her boss. Her boss was
a very critical person. She was working at Amazon
at the time and within the culture of her team,
her boss had a very authoritative leadership
style. So as you were saying, this is what you
do. I'm not going to take no for an answer. She
was afraid to communicate because her personality
was antithetical to that. She's a naturally more
empathetic person, a more collaborative person
and that There was just a lot of tension there.
So she asked me, how should I communicate to
this person when they're just telling me what
to do and I can't really refuse that? I said,
there is a difference between passive, aggressive,
and assertive communication. Passive communication
is what she was leading to at the moment, which
was, okay, maybe I can do that. Let me see if
I can just do this very hesitant language, hedging
language that makes it seem like you're just
going to do what the other person says. Now there
are consequences to that. And there are also
advantages. The advantage is you don't have to
deal with the problem. You just do what the other
person says. You create harmony in the environment.
But the consequence is you are not able to do
what you want. The other pole is aggressive communication.
Now here, the other person can experience the
consequences. As we see in the case of her boss
talking down to her. If you are overly aggressive
with someone, you may get your way. That's the
advantage. But the disadvantage is you may lose
the relationship. because now you rub them the
wrong way. Assertive communication is something
that seeks to balance those two extremes. With
assertive communication, you can be direct, but
you can also be respectful. There's a term for
this in business called radical candor, and there's
also a book that accompanies that. And the thesis
of the book is you can have candor, you can be
honest, and you can be radical and disruptive
with it, but you can still be respectful in the
way you deliver that. And balancing all those
things allows you to state what you want. but
also respect the other person has an opinion.
When you do all those things, people feel included.
They understand what you want them to do still
as a leader, but you create a more collaborative
atmosphere. That's the balance, and I hope more
leaders strike. I think that's a really important
topic of communication. Could you give us an
example about what does it look like in the real
world? Yeah, of course. So let's do a mock. session
now. Let's say you're a leader on your team.
What's something that you would tell your team
members about, like a directive? A direct report.
So yeah, I've been thinking about performance
reviews. It's the beginning of the year, right?
So that's something that's on my mind. One of
my team members is really I think one of the
things that I and them all of us are not good
at is Just doing the Documentation right like
so many of us where we we just don't document
really well I've learned over time that you know,
it's important and it's key, but we just want
to do our thing and just go on to the next next
one, but it's really important to document so
that we not end up doing the same things again
and again. So I think that's something I want
to communicate to my my team. Yeah, so we can
go through that in various extremes of communication.
So first is passive. If you wanted to deliver
the message. to work on documentation to a team
member. A passive way to do that would be, oh
hey, I noticed you're doing a really great job
with all your work. The coding is fantastic and
all that. Documentation is something maybe you
should look at as well. So that would be a really
subtle and a way to indicate to them they should
work on documentation. They might not get that
message at all. All they heard was you're doing
a great job. And the other end of the extreme
is aggressive communication, where you say, your
documentation is horrible, go fix it or you're
fired. Something like that, of course. Some companies
that might be the case. Now assertive communication
would be a way where you are direct yet respectful
and a framework I recommend to do that is known
as situation behavior impact. You talk about
a situation, a very specific situation the person
has been in. You describe that situation to them
so you're both on the same page, objective data.
Then you say here's the behavior I noticed that
you did in that situation and here was the impact
on that. After that, you say, how can we work
on that together? So example, I noticed that
in the last project, the documentation that you
wrote up, and then you describe the behavior,
the documentation didn't have as much detail
as the stakeholder wanted. The impact of that
was the stakeholder was confused. We weren't
able to advance the project as much as we wanted.
Now, let's talk about ways where we can make
sure the documentation is updated in the future
to whatever standard that you've set. In that
way, yes, it's direct. But you're still respectful
the other person you open the conversation up
to hear their perspective And when you want to
understand how they would be proactive in fixing
the problem Yeah, that's a really good way to
balance both assertive and passive Set of communication
Something on my mind I Think I mean like you
said situation behavior and impact. I think it
takes away from saying, hey, you are the problem
to giving a specific scenario. Hey, this thing
that we did was the problem and not really, it's
not the entire person. You as a person is just
one thing within what the whole, just improve
that 2 % and we'll be great. Exactly. Yeah, the
thing that often happens when it comes to feedback
is we take it personally. and when you take it
personally you're unable to let go of ego you
don't want to work on it but if you can distance
from that as much as possible by saying here's
the situation the behavior and impact you say
here's one very specific action that you took
that we can update it's not all of you as a person
as you said that needs to be fixed that's what
lets people be more receptive to actually fixing
it amazing Yeah, I think the balance and nuances
are so key when communication, communicating.
I know we kind of alluded to this in the past,
especially in role of data communicating. How
do you What's the difference between informing
persuading and aligning? With data If we just
show what's going on like this is the sales that
went up 90 % That's great. But we also need to
as you said persuade and align we need to tell
people what to do about that information and
align with what they know and what they prioritize
what their pain is. So for that 90 % increase,
where did we start? Did we start at a really
low point and then the 90 % increase is very
minimal? Or did we start at a high point and
now we're reaching our goals? So when you put
things into context when it comes to data communication,
then it's clear why things matter. Perhaps let's
say as in another example, we made $10 ,000 in
sales last quarter. Okay, great. That's just
the what now. Why is that important? Well last
quarter the previous Quarter before that we made
only one dollar now the $10 ,000 seems incredibly
significant. Why did that happen? We can go into
the root causes. Maybe we had a new marketing
campaign or new product, and that's what we should
continue doing to make more money for the company.
Alternatively, if you were to say we made $10
,000 last quarter and the quarter before that
we made a million dollars, something is horribly
wrong. Now I need to indicate to you, align with
your priority and pain, which would be what happened.
Why are we doing so poorly now? And let's fix
that so it doesn't happen in the quarter that
follows this one. That's true. Let's talk about
public speaking. I know you do such a good job
and you're an expert in teaching people how to
do it well. So I'd love to learn from you. Why
is communication anxiety so common among technical
leaders in general and also in a public speaking
setting. I'd say for technical leaders specifically,
our mindset is very technical as well. We like
things to go as we planned. But what often happens
in public speaking is things don't go according
to plan. And one very unfortunate case of that
was in a keynote I gave last year. It was abroad
in Portugal. It was a communication skills keynote.
I had everything prepared. All my slides, I had
all the talking points and the talk track. I
was going through it, everything was going perfectly,
and then on the stage, I could feel in my stomach
there was this pain. I had just eaten lunch before
this portion of the keynote, so I said, okay,
maybe I didn't eat something... that my stomach
agreed with. So I was like, OK, maybe that will
go away. Let me just keep going. I need to get
through this because this is important. Then
the pain starts to intensify and then I start
to see blurry blurriness in my vision. I start
to get lightheaded and I say, OK, I can't ignore
this anymore. I can't will this away with sheer
willpower. So now I need to do something about
this. This is going to require me to go off script.
So I said, all right, everybody, I am not feeling
well. I need to go to the bathroom. In the meantime,
we're going to segue to a group activity where
you implement what I just taught you. So, I went
to the bathroom, I came back, I felt much better.
It was food poisoning. And everything went fine
after that. Nobody batted an eye. If you handle
a situation with grace and composure, and you
adapt as needed, everybody's going to respect
the fact you can't anticipate everything bad
things happen. We all had a laugh about it after
the keynote. They said, yeah. Can't believe that
happened in the middle of something so important.
But because I handled it and because we had a
successful event afterwards, nobody's going to
remember that except for the fact that it was
handled well. Yeah, that's amazing. And I think
that's I'm so glad you handle it really well.
And that's a really good example of it. And nobody
I think we. Like you said, we think about. everything
has to go so perfectly like as it is in my head.
So I think that's not real life. I think all
of us technical leaders are a bit of control
freaks and want things to go as we have in our
minds. For many of the clients I work with who
are technical leaders, that is the number one
thing that we tackle from lesson one that I have
with them, is we need to let go of the mindset
of perfection because perfection is not possible
in communication. Communication, especially verbal
communication, by nature is messy and improvisational.
It's not like writing. which AI can automate
to be perfect. But in speaking, it's on the spot.
You're required to come up with something instantaneously.
It's going to be a little messy, and you're not
going to find the best idea. You have to work
with whatever you have. And that's what I teach,
is to adapt to whatever your mind gives to you,
adapt to the situation, adapt to your audience.
Especially in some presentations, I'm talking
about something. It's not clicking. So I say,
OK, we need to change gears. This is something
I didn't prepare. But because my audience wants
something else, I have to give that to them.
So being able to adapt is a key skill for communication.
And that's something that I work with technical
leaders to a great extent with. That's very important.
Do you know? I know you work with a lot of leaders
who are not native English speakers, who are
probably bilingual or trilingual. Speaking of
myself, I feel like there are multiple languages
running in my head every time and me having to
find the best words or sentence structures in
a way that, you know, sits well with English.
What are the tips for non -native speakers or
is there a framework to think about? What I do
especially with some clients I'm working with
now who are non -native English speakers is it's
very important to Diagram visually what you know,
this is not something that we do But if you can
think about it like this when we're speaking
all these thoughts are going through our head
that we cannot see So it's hard to fix something
that you cannot see What if you could put all
of that down on a piece of paper? Create a mind
map for example a diagram. Here's a topic I usually
speak on. Let's say it's software engineering.
Let me diagram all the things I know related
to software engineering. I can see it in one
place. I can see what gaps I have. So I can fill
in those gaps. Then if someone asks me about
software engineering, I know what to pull in
because I can see it. As another example, when
it comes to vocabulary, like you mentioned, you
want to find the right word to express your intent.
Take a word or a concept that you need to talk
about. Let's say it's the concept of something
being previous. So you put the word previous,
you diagram, okay, what synonyms are there related
to previous, beforehand, maybe preceding, and
then you can do some things related to that.
So the concept something being after. subsequent,
consequent. If you do that for every typical
concept you need to talk about, suddenly you
have all this rich treasure trove of associations
to work with visually. You can see what gaps
exist. You can fill them in. So the biggest advice
I would give to anyone listening, non -native
speaker or native speaker is to visually diagram
your knowledge and your vocabulary so that you
can fill in those gaps and be proactive about
it. Yeah, that's very powerful. I think spending
some time to think about and building a mind
map of, or even put it on a paper or a document,
the concepts and creating that visually is, I
think, that would be super important. I hadn't
thought about that. So I typically just write
it down. That's helpful, but probably visualizing
maybe even more powerful. The thing that is advantageous
about this approach is it aligns with the way
a lot of us as technical people think. We like
charting things out and being precise, but the
other advantage of it is it develops associative
thinking. When we just write what we want to
say, like in a script, that's for one instance
only. But if you chart out your knowledge and
find all the associations between different related
topics, you start to see creative connections
between things you didn't see before. Then in
the next conversation, you can bring those associations
and you're no longer stuck, but you can see all
the corners of your mind. That's very true. That's
very true. And yeah, we love charts, don't we?
Yes. Cool. Let's talk about your TEDx experience
and the lessons, some of the lessons that you
may have learned. What motivated you to pursue
a TEDx talk and how did that come about? When
I was younger, I was the shyest, most introverted
person in my high school, by far at large. I
couldn't muster the courage or the willpower
to talk to anyone, teacher, let alone a classmate.
And I had this dream of mine. And one day I could
overcome that. and I could give a TEDx talk one
day. That was my earliest dream. So fast forward
many years, I say to myself, I need to work on
this skill. A teacher told me in high school,
Chris, you have such brilliant ideas. You have
great hard work ethic. But if you do not communicate,
people will never see that. So she inspired me
to really, really hone in on working on this
skill. I began to practice every single day,
recording myself, watching it back, seeing what
I can improve. I watched videos of people I read
books and over time I noticed that I was improving
because I was practicing and I was actually doing
it when it eventually came time for me two years
ago to apply for TEDx event I had some imposter
syndrome I said okay I've never done something
as big as this before maybe I shouldn't even
apply they'll just reject me but I said no I
had a good feeling about this the theme of the
event was rethinking innovation it was looking
for experts who have creatively combined different
fields. And for me, the biggest life journey
I underwent was a combination between my music
and my data fields of expertise. So I said, this
is perfect. I applied and I was accepted. I was
incredibly shocked that I was. And I gave a TEDx
talk in August of 2024. It was one of the most
momentous moments of my life because I looked
back and I said, I did overcome. that past challenge
I faced of being shy and introverted. Now I'm
speaking on a stage to people all around the
world, and now I hope to inspire and encourage
others to go on a similar journey for themselves.
That's amazing. Yeah, I think it was momentous
both professionally and personally for you. That's
amazing. What surprised you about the presentation
process itself? Was there help in collaboration
from TEDx itself? There was. I don't know about
all the events, but for the one I spoke at, TEDx
Logan Circle in DC, there was a tremendous amount
of support. I worked with a team of three or
four coaches who listened to my talk, gave feedback,
That is invaluable. To get that many diverse
perspectives in one room, letting you know how
you can improve, I was very grateful for that.
It lets me take the talk to another level I didn't
even expect. And to get perspectives about the
pacing, about the content, about if they understood
it, that was so important because when we do
anything, whether it's communication or something
technical, we get lost in the weeds because it's
too close to us. We did it. So we can't be objective
anymore and say, here's what's wrong. I was able
to see that with the feedback from my coaches.
And I would recommend for anyone who's working
on communication or presentation, get as much
feedback as possible. It's amazing. What's one
feedback that you have brought with you from
your TEDx talk? The biggest piece of feedback
that I got was related to managing my nerves
and pacing. Because I was so nervous to impress
these coaches. This was the first time I presented
to such an audience in a private setting I said,
okay, I need to impress them. I need to knock
their socks off with how good this is So I spoke
so fast They could barely understand what I was
saying and I I reflected on the situation and
I said yes I did not manage my nerves properly.
I Teach this to my clients but to implement to
myself. That's my blind spot. So I worked on
myself. I worked on regulating my emotions were
worked on rehearsing the speech so well that
I could say it even now to you probably if I
was required to. And with all that preparation,
emotionally and content wise, I was able to go
on the stage on the big day and not have those
nerves and speak at the pace that I wanted. So
that's the piece of feedback I'll always carry
with me. That's amazing and super important for
public speaking. Great. And how has it impacted
your, how did the TEDx talk impact your business
and career? For instance, I think it's been more
than a year now. I wouldn't be able to say it's
direct impact from a causal standpoint, but I
will say it has given a degree of recognition
and something that I teach when it comes to communication,
especially when you're talking to leaders. It's
important to get social validation. TEDx for
me is a form of social validation. It's saying,
Hey, this external organization trusts this person
in the same way. When we communicate to leaders,
we would like to demonstrate the same. It's not
just me telling you, this is my recommendation.
I have people who you trust. who are recommending
this as well. That makes your argument much stronger.
So I would say that aspect has helped me professionally.
And that's what I also recommend to people who
are pursuing something similar. Yeah. Yeah, I
think social proof is an important part of our
work. And I think one of the topics that we have
is AI, like we touched on it before. There's
so much talk about AI. Where does AI help in
technical communication? I know we touched on
this a little bit before, but generally, I know
you said think of AI as your partners. How do
you use it on a daily basis? For me, I'm currently
writing a book on communication skills and influence
skills, persuasion skills. And I am often asked
when I bring this up, how much are you using
AI to write the book? And my answer to them is
as little as possible. The only instance I'll
use AI is if I'm stuck brainstorming. Then I
go to AI and say, hey, I'm stuck. I'm trying
to think of X thing. give me some ideas, then
I am the one who chooses the idea eventually.
It's still my product, it's still my thought
process, but I'm using AI to help me get out
of my blind spot. That's the only thing I will
ever use AI for in this writing process. I want,
when I write this book or when I communicate
to anyone, for it to be my voice entirely. Yes,
it's going to take longer. AI could make that
10 times faster, probably. But I want this to
come from me. I want when people read this book
for it to feel like a conversation with my thoughts
and my ideas, not something that's been optimized.
Yes, it might be more messy, but that's what
I want. And the same thing would be true for
when we communicate in business. I would recommend.
that when you communicate, yes, we can use AI
to optimize our emails and whatever it is, but
we have to apply the critical thinking at the
end to say, yes, I approve of this output or
no, this no longer sounds like me. We still have
to be part of the process. That's how I'd recommend
using AI. Yeah, I think like we talked about
too. You put it very well where. You're still
leading the conversation. You're still leading
the idea space. You're just getting AI to help
you get unstuck or the last few steps in the
way, if you need it. If you just use AI in the
beginning, you could kind of use AI to brainstorm,
but you still have to pick something that resonates
with you the most. and then develop on your own
versus just use AI everywhere. Absolutely. I
think one dangerous way to view AI is don't use
it at all because it's clear it's going to stay
here for a very long time and it would put you
at a disadvantage to not know how to use it.
But use it well and wisely. I relate AI or any
other technology like social media similar to
something like junk food. Yes, it's nice to indulge
in it once in a while, but don't have it all
the time. be proactive about using it purposefully
and don't get lost in using it all the time.
Amazing. Really good and important tip for viewers.
Let me find my notes. So I know we've been talking
about originality or authenticity and AI. What's
the best way to, I think that's a struggle that
a lot of people will have, right? So how do I
still be authentic when using AI? We talked a
little bit about, hey, when to use AI, how to
use AI, are there any things that you see leaders
doing it the wrong way and some examples of other
leaders doing it the right way? I would give
an example that I gave in a recent keynote about
how to use AI the right way. Rather than thinking
of it as a way to just simplify manual repetitive
tasks, Think of it as the thought partner that
we've been talking about. Have it be that person,
unjudgmental person in the room who can tell
you what gaps that you missed. So for example,
I'll recommend to leaders, if you're going to
give a presentation, use AI not to design the
whole thing for you, you can use it to supplement
what you do. But once you've created the thing,
ask AI, tell me what I missed. Pretend to be
my audience. act as my audience of executives
or technical team, tell me what they would think
if they heard this presentation. Would they be
inspired for my call to action? Would they not
be as inspired? How can I improve my presentation
to fill in those spaces? That's what AI is really
good at, is letting you see your blind spots.
That's a really cool example. Kind of use AI
as your... sounding board or, you know, get some
feedback. Because often we don't have access
to that kind of person in our professional circle,
someone who will take as much time as they want
to review our presentation and give honest feedback.
That's what AI can do. And of course, we have
to prompt AI and say, hey, be critical with this.
Don't just give me the nice sweet version that
you do by default, but be critical with me. That's
what's really useful. Don't glaze me AI. Yes.
Yeah, I think prompting is really key to just
say, hey, do not just agree with me. Be more
critical. I'm here to learn. Are there specific
AI tools that you use for communication or is
ChatGPT or Gemini or Claw one of those help you?
I'd say when it comes to brainstorming for things
like my book, I'll use ChatGPT. When it comes
to teaching AI for communication, I'll work with
whatever the company has. So one company I worked
with recently to teach data storytelling, their
company uses Gemini. So I said, okay, here's
how you could use Gemini to prompt, create images
for the data, visualizations that you want, give
you ideas, not necessarily do all the work for
you. And that usually is what determines how
I teach is what the company uses. Yeah, that's
a really good way to think about it. In your
mind, what, when a company goes through this
transition, you go there and tell them the importance
of communication skills or data, not just data,
but data storytelling. What does the ideal world
look like? What changes when communication becomes
the first -class citizen in a data organization?
The biggest change I like to see post -training
is very simple. I want people to have the three
what's in their communication, not just what
is going on, which is what communication usually
stays at, just the data. what it says. I want
to see in the communication following, I'm also
telling you why it matters. So I'm providing
the context we talked about before. Why does
the data point that I mentioned, why is it so
significant? And then the last point, the most
important one, what do we do about it? Often,
when it comes to data presentation, I see them
limited to updates. Here is what we found. But
what's more important, much more aligned with
leadership is saying not just why it matters,
but here's what I recommend you do. That's what
turns data teams from being cost centers to profit
centers. Now you're actually providing value
to the business that's forward thinking. Yeah,
I think that's a really big struggle for data
teams. We often and now we're being honest when
we think this, but we think of ourselves as cost
centers and we are. But the biggest. push or
biggest goal is to kind of become those profits
and become those people that go beyond dashboards
or data pipelines and go to becoming an important
part of the organization who's kind of delivering
actual business value versus just being report
runners or dashboard creators. Data teams have
such potential. because they have access to information
from all these departments in the company. They
can pull creative insights that can dictate how
companies can improve to a very significant scale.
I feel bad seeing data teams limited to just
being call centers because they can be so much
more. And that's why the skill of storytelling
and communication I teach, I feel, can really
assist with that mission. Yeah, especially with,
like, the theme comes back again and again. some
of the technical analysis and technical coding
can be offloaded to AI. So it's becoming more
democratic, right? So the analysis is becoming
more democratic. So I think we have to go learn
the storytelling aspect and not just live in
the data world because that's becoming, it's
not going to go away, of course, but it's becoming
more accessible to everybody. right, which is
great, which is amazing. So we have to go to
other areas, data storytelling, building consensus,
build, you know, collaborating. So I think those
human skills, soft skills, what we refer to as
soft skills are going to become more important
as this happens. Absolutely. AI has dominated
the digital space. It's got that hands down.
need to dominate the non -digital spaces in between.
That's our goal. That's very profound. We have
to lead the human connections. We have to lead
the human aspects of our business building. What's
your vision for leaders who can pair inside with
influence. What does it look like when they do
that? I'll give an example of what this could
look like. It would boil down to the point we
talked about before when it comes to meeting
an audience where they are. That's when you can
deliver an insight and have influence. There
was one talk I was giving to open a conference
and it was on presentation skills, something
that I usually talk about to great length in
many, many settings. What would have been easy
to do is just give the same presentation I always
do. But something that I promised to myself early
on when I started public speaking is don't go
on autopilot because every audience needs something
different. So I customized this presentation
to the audience. It was a group of audit professionals,
a field I didn't know much about beforehand.
So I did the work to understand what this audience's
pains and priorities are, as we talked about
earlier in the podcast. And that let me know
what case studies and examples to include. delivering
that presentation was that much more impactful
because it used things they know and care about.
And I was approached by people afterwards who
said, I can't believe you don't have an audit
background. And that showed to me that the key
to influence really is speaking people's language.
That's how you connect. And that's how you have
an impact. That's a really, yeah, I think. That's
one thing that I'm going to bring with me from
this conversation, take with me from this conversation,
right? So it's, how do you humanize your analysis?
How do you, I think probably providing an example,
having a key character, what we talk about in
filmmaking or, you know, what we learn in filmmaking
and storytelling outside of. our professional
corporate jobs is key, right? So you have a main
character, you're taking the audience through
their journey and from their lens. I think that
would be so powerful in addition to the data
which we're all so good at, right? So hey, this
is happening. And this is not just an anecdote,
one single example, but that ties your, you can
bring your emotional core and your data insights.
Hey, this is not just happening to one person,
but this is happening at a scale that is not
just a couple of handful of stories. Exactly.
One tip I usually give that's a little bit. different
from the usual to work on communication is to
read stories or observe yourself as you're consuming
entertainment. We all consume entertainment to
some extent. We watch movies, we're on TikTok,
we go on YouTube to watch longer form videos.
When you watch those things, it's important to
reflect what is catching my attention. It's usually
going to be some character going through a pain,
transforming as a result of the journey and emerging
with some impact and lesson learned at the end.
That's what engages our attention. The reason
why audiences often tune out and just get bored
listening to data presentations is it doesn't
have any of that. We need to bring those lessons
from other media, from storytelling, from videos,
to the data world so that we can not only say
something important, but make sure that people
understand it and want to take action on it.
Yeah. I think that's really important. Do you
see your 3W framework as kind of the three -part
structure? Is that analogous in some ways? I'd
say it's similar but not complete in the sense
that you could structure a presentation to say
what's going on, why it matters, what to do about
it. But a framework I use to teach storytelling
is more along these lines. You start with the
context. So you talk about the data. You build
up to a cusp. So you talk about, in a sense,
why it matters, why this is so important. You
indicate the problem and its agitation so people
feel compelled to act on it. And then you relieve
that tension with the conclusion and the solution.
So yes, the three what structure gives you the
ingredients to do that, but organizing it in
the shape of an arc. with the narrative momentum
and the emotional momentum going to a peak and
then subsiding, that's what creates a compelling
story. That's really promising for me. Yeah,
I'm going to take that with me. I know we're
coming to the top of the hour, so this is one
of our staple questions here in dream state.
AI, right? So if money and resources were not
constraints, what kind of AI models or data models
would you like, would you build and what would
you do with it? I'd give to every leader an AI
model that they could type in what they're working
on, especially when it comes to communication,
and get the critical honest feedback that we
talked about earlier. That, I think, is one of
the most invaluable things that we don't often
have enough of, is critical, honest feedback.
I want AI to fill that gap for us, unjudgmentally.
That's amazing. And I think there's a large consensus
that, hey, I don't want to see myself. I don't
want to look at myself after I've recorded. So
I think we're doing a disservice to ourselves.
It's horrible. to begin with, but I think we
need to get over that hump. Yes. It's, I frame
it usually like this. If you record yourself,
you're able to see exactly what your audience
is going to see. You're able to hear exactly
what they're going to hear. Why not make that
an honest reflection of yourself? That way you
can show all of you in your best form to your
audience. Recording is uncomfortable. Yes, but
essential. So you're saying watching just myself,
uh, recorded videos of myself is not really narcissistic.
It's just learning. Okay. Maybe it could be both,
but yeah. But I think it's really key because
that's a really direct form of feedback that
we can get for free in today's world. Right.
So I think it's important to take advantage of
that. Um, No, I think I appreciate you coming
in and giving us so much insights about data
storytelling, telling us about your experience
with TEDx. And this was really fascinating and
enlightening to me. Is there anything we've not
covered that you wanted to add to our data and
AI community? I think we covered a really good
Series of topics the thing I'd want to leave
listeners with and viewers with is that last
tip we gave to record yourself The only way that
you're going to get better at something is if
you do it So I know a lot of people ask me what
books can I read on communication? What videos
should I watch I tell them? You need to practice.
It's like learning swimming. You're not going
to learn swimming if you read about swimming
or you watch people swim. You're going to learn
swimming when you actually go in the water and
you swim. So I tell people you need to swim.
You need to practice communication, watch yourself
back, get critical, honest feedback. That's the
way to improve. That's amazing. Yeah. No, thank
you so much. Appreciate you, Chris. It was fascinating
and I had so much fun. Thank you so much. the
opportunity.