1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,300 Hey there, welcome to Data Democracy. 2 00:00:10,300 --> 00:00:16,120 This is a podcast where we explore ways to make data and AI more accessible to everyone. 3 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:21,840 We do this by interviewing experts across industries, asking them how they think about 4 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:26,380 data, what are some of the challenges they face when it comes to data, and if they had 5 00:00:26,380 --> 00:00:31,560 a magic wand and time and resources were not constrained, what kind of intelligence and 6 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:33,480 models would they wish to have? 7 00:00:33,480 --> 00:00:36,000 We have a great guest today, Jim James. 8 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:42,280 Jim is a global entrepreneur, PR guru, author of multiple books, and a podcaster. 9 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:47,640 Jim has built businesses across three continents, has written fascinating books including The 10 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:52,760 Gap Year Cash, The Unnoticed Entrepreneur, Volume 1 and 2. 11 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:58,080 Jim hosts a podcast also called The Unnoticed Entrepreneur where he works with entrepreneurs 12 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,440 to help them grow and get noticed. 13 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,920 I'm super excited to welcome Jim to Data Democracy. 14 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:04,920 Jim, welcome. 15 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,600 Nidhi, thanks so much for the glowing introduction. 16 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,000 You've said it better than I could have said it myself. 17 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:12,760 I had to get you to do my PR. 18 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:14,800 Thank you for inviting me onto the show. 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:20,840 No, I'm super excited to have you on Learn From You. 20 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:21,840 Let's start with your story. 21 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,680 You've got an inspiring story. 22 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:30,920 You're more from the UK to Singapore at 28, founding your company, writing books and hosting 23 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:31,920 your podcast. 24 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:32,920 Tell us your story. 25 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:33,920 Well, thank you. 26 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:39,120 I think it all started when I jumped out of a plane at the age of 17, Nidhi, really. 27 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:45,960 I was trying to raise money to go overseas to Australia from the UK. 28 00:01:45,960 --> 00:01:49,000 Working by the hour, I knew I'd never make enough money. 29 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:54,360 So I jumped out of an aeroplane and got it sponsored by people in the toy department 30 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:59,560 that I was working in, actually selling toys to children. 31 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:04,760 And I really learned from that episode, the jumping out of a plane and raising enough 32 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:13,400 money to go to Australia and then getting the local newspapers to report me buying some 33 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:20,280 clothes and some boots and backpacks and so on from a local store in exchange for coverage. 34 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:25,520 I learned that actually you can make money not by earning it by the hour, but by creating 35 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,960 something from nothing. 36 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,640 And that's really, for me, the start. 37 00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:39,160 So at 27, after a few years of working for other people and finding, sitting in meetings, 38 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:44,360 not really for me, I moved to Singapore to start my first business, East West Public 39 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,040 Relations, which is still operating, in fact, EastWestPR.com. 40 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:57,920 And I sold it to a couple of young PR gurus that are now running the business. 41 00:02:57,920 --> 00:02:58,920 That's awesome. 42 00:02:58,920 --> 00:03:01,040 It's a really fascinating story. 43 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:10,240 I know you've got businesses across multiple countries and you've had a long career. 44 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:15,360 What are some of the unexpected challenges and surprises you've encountered in your global 45 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:16,360 career? 46 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:17,360 Yeah. 47 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:23,360 You mentioned about going on to other countries just to fill that in after Singapore for 12 48 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:29,920 years and moved to China, to start the public relations company, but also then started opening 49 00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:34,880 the import business for a sports car company, a drinks company and started the British Business 50 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:36,600 Awards in China. 51 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:42,200 And the other continent was India, actually, where I opened an office in Bangalore. 52 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:49,440 So I've been fortunate enough to start businesses on many continents and many different kinds 53 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:51,480 of businesses. 54 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:58,220 I think that one of the challenges that you face as an entrepreneur anywhere is the physical 55 00:03:58,220 --> 00:04:05,680 challenge because you have to be self-motivated and running a business is a marathon, not 56 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,440 a sprint. 57 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:17,760 And I think that for all of us, I'm 57 now, so I'm at the end of things. 58 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:23,400 The challenge of staying fit and healthy, when at the beginning, when you start an agency, 59 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,800 you don't feel like your health is that important because you think it's all about money and 60 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:29,000 ideas and networking. 61 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:36,600 So one of the challenges that I've had to overcome is change in the way that I address 62 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,880 and look after myself. 63 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:46,160 I actually had a tumor, grew a tumor, not intentionally, I can say, but I discovered 64 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,640 I had an amoblastoma when I was living in Beijing. 65 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,680 And that's kind of a rare disease, but it's fatal in 5% of people and it's not pleasant 66 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:59,160 part of your jaw disintegrates. 67 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:08,440 And that was really a wonderful, wrong word maybe, but a great reminder that there is 68 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,520 no wealth without your health. 69 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:17,520 So I think the first challenge as an entrepreneur is to recognize that the big goal is actually 70 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:22,080 your longevity, not your profitability. 71 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,160 So that'd be perhaps the first challenge. 72 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:31,480 Second challenge, I think, when you run a business is you're learning new things. 73 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:40,980 You're learning to do product marketing, maybe development, cashflow, HR, tax, finance. 74 00:05:40,980 --> 00:05:45,480 If you're trying to learn those things in your own country, then you can ask people 75 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,120 that you know, and the language may be the same. 76 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:57,680 I was a bit of a fool really, because I went to Singapore, so I learned how to run a business 77 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:58,680 in an entirely new culture. 78 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:05,400 This was back in 95, so we didn't really have the internet, just the beginnings of Yahoo 79 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:07,780 and no mobile phones. 80 00:06:07,780 --> 00:06:12,640 So that was a challenge, was, if you like, learning enough quickly enough. 81 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:17,960 And then when I went to China in 2006, I had to learn again. 82 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:24,800 So one of the challenges as an entrepreneur is that we have to continue to learn, and 83 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,060 we're learning while we're doing. 84 00:06:28,060 --> 00:06:34,120 And finding this balance between doing things that you know work and exploring new things 85 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:41,840 that you don't know will work yet is central to being an entrepreneur, because we're always 86 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:44,720 the ones who are leading a business and moving it forward. 87 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:50,280 Because if you are an employee, of course, you have someone, an organization or a boss 88 00:06:50,280 --> 00:06:52,160 who has made that decision for you. 89 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:59,000 So I think that constant challenge of learning and doing simultaneously is another challenge. 90 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:00,920 So that's two good challenges. 91 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,280 I don't want to put anybody off being an entrepreneur, so I don't want to say too many, but those 92 00:07:05,280 --> 00:07:07,000 are perhaps two. 93 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,760 Retaining your health and continuing to learn whilst doing. 94 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,280 Yeah, those are really great insights. 95 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,000 You did mention about longevity and health. 96 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:23,360 It reminded me of an interview I was watching of Robert Downey Jr. 97 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:30,120 He basically said, I've got my acting down and I know how to emote and all that, but 98 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:38,840 the best thing I can bring, the best value that I can bring is to bring my A game and 99 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,080 make sure that I'm healthy and in the right mindset. 100 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:46,920 I think that's really, that spoke to me. 101 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:56,160 Yeah, so continuing on, like you said, you've got a unique vantage point of starting businesses 102 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:01,200 and running it in multiple countries and cultures. 103 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:07,140 When it comes to business, what are the things that work across cultures and countries? 104 00:08:07,140 --> 00:08:13,040 What should entrepreneurs focus on no matter where they're doing their business? 105 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:18,780 The universal truths in running a business, probably a couple. 106 00:08:18,780 --> 00:08:26,040 One is that central to any company, whether it's a software or a hardware, you're selling 107 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:31,880 fruit, you're delivering medical supplies, you have to add value. 108 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:37,720 It seems an obvious thing to say, but often people get caught up with what they want to 109 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:43,880 produce and forget that what's most important is what people want to buy. 110 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:48,520 Now I know this is antithetical to the Steve Jobs or even the Ford. 111 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,880 If I asked people what they wanted, they want faster horses. 112 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:59,640 But actually, if you look at it this way, people wanted transport. 113 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:06,720 The intuition was that they would do that through cars or people wanted mobile telephony. 114 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:12,320 Okay, so actually people did want those things. 115 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,840 It's just how we would have them that's different. 116 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,680 So first of all, I think that we have to remember that we're adding value because if we're not, 117 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:22,440 no one's going to give us any money. 118 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,480 Universal. 119 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:30,320 The second element about business, again, I don't know that I'm teaching anybody anything 120 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,320 new here, but it really does come down to people. 121 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:41,320 It comes down to the people that you sell to, liking what you offer them, trusting you, 122 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,760 working with you if things aren't quite right and not trying to make life difficult for 123 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:45,760 you. 124 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:50,240 It comes down to the people that help you to deliver that good in service. 125 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,960 So whether it's in Singapore or India or China, and I've worked in America and lived in Africa 126 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:59,800 as well, you can't create anything on your own. 127 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,400 Business is a team sport. 128 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:09,000 And even if you are a solo printer, you need vendors, you need suppliers. 129 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,760 Even if you're buying everything software as a service, you need someone who's on a 130 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:17,400 help desk that can help you figure out your domain name. 131 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:24,560 So the second point really, Mitty, is that business really relies on people. 132 00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:33,640 And so no matter where you are in your entrepreneur life, you should enjoy and take comfort in 133 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:39,880 that because essentially as people, building relationships with other people is actually 134 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,880 the most joyful thing in the world. 135 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,600 And as an entrepreneur, really everybody and anyone can do that. 136 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,840 There is no barrier to having relationships. 137 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:55,040 It's not a technical, it's not a financial, it's not a legal barrier. 138 00:10:55,040 --> 00:11:01,640 So the universal truth really is that we are all in relationships trading with one another. 139 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,200 And the rest is an application, it's an approach and so on. 140 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:12,240 But those would be two universal truths that I've learned over the last 25, 30 years. 141 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,600 Yeah, that's a really good point. 142 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:26,120 You mentioned about bringing customers or actually asking entrepreneurs to solve problems, 143 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,200 not necessarily how to. 144 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:32,760 That's the engineer's and entrepreneur's job to understand how to. 145 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:41,200 But like you said, people were asking faster, quicker way of transportation, not necessarily 146 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,880 the intuition, like you said, was, okay, just improve what we have. 147 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:53,040 Maybe that's a problem solving issue that the engineers and entrepreneurs need to solve. 148 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:54,040 Exactly, Mithi. 149 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:55,680 So people were racing faster and faster horses. 150 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:57,040 They were trying to get faster and faster. 151 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,960 They were feeding them better grain instead of grass. 152 00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:02,840 So people were innovating around faster transport. 153 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:07,000 So the entrepreneur's role is to see that gap. 154 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:13,600 And the joy of being an entrepreneur is you try and build, create, innovate something 155 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:20,880 that solves the need that the market has, but hasn't yet fulfilled the need for. 156 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:31,240 So it's not that customers cannot tell you about your next product. 157 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:37,640 Entrepreneurs about customers do not necessarily need to tell you how to build your product. 158 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:43,040 They just need to tell you, you just need to understand what are the problems that they 159 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:44,520 want solved. 160 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:45,720 Exactly. 161 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:54,600 And that's really what our role as entrepreneurs is to watch what people do, listen to what 162 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,840 people say and be sensitive to those needs. 163 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:04,720 And that's why I say business comes down to people, because if you have empathy around 164 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:10,680 what people are struggling with, what their aspirations are, then you can understand what 165 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:15,280 kind of product, good or service that you can deliver to that need. 166 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,440 That's a great point. 167 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:26,680 In my work, I've helped businesses, business teams, marketing teams, sales operations, 168 00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:34,800 and lots of teams with data and AI, but I've never dived into public relations. 169 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,720 We're just starting to do dipping our toes into it. 170 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:45,480 So for a novice like me, how would you explain the world of PR? 171 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:54,880 Public relations is really about how a company or an individual communicates to those people 172 00:13:54,880 --> 00:14:00,920 actually inside and outside the organization, as opposed to intimate relations, I suppose, 173 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:05,000 where you talk to maybe a friend about what you would like to tell them about your emotional 174 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:06,000 wellbeing. 175 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:12,680 So public relations really is about sharing with those different communities, what we 176 00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:20,440 call stakeholders, internal and external and partners, what you're trying to accomplish 177 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:26,320 and what your vision is, and maybe what's going right with that vision and what's not 178 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:27,760 going quite right with that vision. 179 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:34,880 So the way I look at public relations is it's a way to engage those stakeholders in the 180 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,480 forward progress of the company. 181 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:44,400 And we do that through communicating through the media, through traditional press, through 182 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,640 podcasts, which is a growing medium as we're doing now. 183 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:52,360 And I've just launched a podcast guest blueprint, which is a course for anyone that wants to 184 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:58,360 be on a podcast, how to get on a podcast, but also how to create connections so that 185 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,360 you get leads from those podcasts as well. 186 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:08,000 So public relations is about taking that thought that you have as an entrepreneur and putting 187 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:15,600 into different formats, be it a video, be it a written press release, being an article, 188 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:20,480 being it a podcast and audio, or even going out and speaking to people. 189 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:26,240 So public relations is really about how you communicate what your company is doing. 190 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,200 That's not a sales message. 191 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:34,440 It's about how you as an organization are addressing an issue or a community, for example, 192 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:40,360 as opposed to this is what I'm selling, which is quite tactical and a transfer of value. 193 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:44,200 So I hope that explains where it's about then trying to help people to move from maybe a 194 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:48,880 lack of understanding to a fuller understanding of what you're doing. 195 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,840 And ultimately you want people to engage in what you're doing, because if they engage 196 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,520 with what you're doing, then they will become customers and advocates and help you to do 197 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:57,520 that. 198 00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:58,840 Got it. 199 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:09,560 It's more organic or more natural than a sales transaction in a lot of ways because you're 200 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:16,800 not going, maybe down the line, but in that specific interaction, you're not really asking 201 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:18,320 the customers for something else. 202 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:23,320 You're just trying to educate them or bring awareness to your product. 203 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:27,920 Yeah, but in a way, I mean, in the marketing tool, we do our funnels, right? 204 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:33,360 And public relations really is helping people to understand which funnels they're going 205 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,080 to be comfortable getting into. 206 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:41,600 And the sale is you like the company, you believe in the company, you've done your due 207 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,840 diligence and now you're going to have a transaction that buys that good or service that fits 208 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:51,440 into your company or your home, right? 209 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,880 But if you haven't understood what the company stands for, that the company will be around 210 00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:01,080 for a long period of time and that they have integrity and they have authenticity, these 211 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:08,280 are values, if you like, that you ascribe to a company which go ahead if you wanted 212 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:09,960 to buy from them. 213 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:11,960 That's really what public relations is doing. 214 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:16,640 So it's helping people to understand the company better. 215 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,840 Do PR and brand awareness come under the same umbrella? 216 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,920 Are they tangential but separate or the same? 217 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,000 What's the relationship between the two? 218 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,600 Brand awareness, Mitty, really is the objective, right? 219 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:37,120 Brand awareness is what you're hoping to get from public relations, advertising, maybe 220 00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:47,320 seminar speaking, podcasts, outdoor signage, where if people see the brand, it creates 221 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:53,880 a response within the person because a brand is a promise and it creates an emotional response 222 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,280 to people and that brand. 223 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:02,400 And because people will associate that brand with different aspects of their lives or different 224 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:08,000 meanings, one brand can have a positioning, but it won't mean the same to everybody. 225 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:14,720 McDonald's means one set of values and promises to one person and maybe something else to 226 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:16,800 somebody else. 227 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:22,160 Public relations is one of the ways that you can communicate the brand values. 228 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:32,680 Okay, so public relations, even direct media, social media, outdoor events, speaking, podcasts, 229 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,800 these all contribute to the brand. 230 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:41,240 And where you have an advert, for example, will build an impression, a visual impression. 231 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:46,980 I like the look of that, for example, but it doesn't really create any context. 232 00:18:46,980 --> 00:18:52,440 The public relations helps you to understand the context of that image and that brand and 233 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:53,520 that message. 234 00:18:53,520 --> 00:19:02,320 So one actually needs to have an integrated approach, which is why you'll see big companies 235 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:07,480 will have product launches, they'll have customer loyalty programs, they'll have after sales 236 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:14,120 care, they'll have AI bots on their websites, they have customer reviews, they'll do trade 237 00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:15,120 shows. 238 00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:19,480 So actually need an integrated approach to build a brand. 239 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:20,600 Got it. 240 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:28,960 So PR is one of the levers you have to reach the objectives, which would be brand awareness. 241 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:29,960 Exactly. 242 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:30,960 Got it. 243 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:32,920 Got it. 244 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:40,620 This may be a very broad question, but how do you improve PR or a brand of a company 245 00:19:40,620 --> 00:19:42,160 or a product? 246 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,280 How do you measure the impact of your PR efforts? 247 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,560 You've got two questions in there. 248 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:56,200 One is how do you improve the, let's call it the awareness or the understanding really. 249 00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:02,320 So in public relations, we'll first of all look at how you do that. 250 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,760 Your second question was about measurement. 251 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:11,880 So the first question is how do you communicate about your company, your brand? 252 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,600 The first is really to understand what the company stands for. 253 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,440 And we've all heard of the missions and visions and so on. 254 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:24,080 And then what public relations does is it looks for different ways for spokespeople 255 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,040 in the organization to articulate those. 256 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:33,340 It could be, for example, as an article that appears in a magazine or a newspaper. 257 00:20:33,340 --> 00:20:38,120 It could be appearing on TV, especially if there's a crisis management, for example, 258 00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:40,720 then someone needs to speak, for example, like Boeing. 259 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:48,280 So a great example of the COO of Alaska Airlines, for example, was sitting on the Boeing MAX 260 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:56,080 737 on its first flight after the door had flown out. 261 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:01,280 So that's a classic case for public relations because they know that the perception of that 262 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,320 airplane is that it's unsafe. 263 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:10,800 So you have the COO of one of the biggest airlines flying next to the emergency exit 264 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:11,800 on a plane, right? 265 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:12,800 It's not advertising. 266 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,280 It's not direct mail. 267 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:16,280 That's PR. 268 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:21,200 That's saying we as a customer, me as an individual, I trust this brand. 269 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:26,420 I'm willing to literally sit next to the door to make sure it works. 270 00:21:26,420 --> 00:21:34,460 So PR is about going out and being seen, whether it's in writing or in person and articulating 271 00:21:34,460 --> 00:21:39,440 the values of that company. 272 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:44,600 And the way to do that is through consistency. 273 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:52,240 I have a strapline for my podcast, The Unnoticed Entrepreneur and on the book and in the podcast 274 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,960 guest blueprint course, keep on communicating. 275 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:04,200 It's very simple, but we are actually all required to keep on communicating because 276 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:09,440 if we don't communicate, it's the time when people say no comment, for example, if they're 277 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:17,480 asked after a trial, the assumption from everybody is if they're not commenting, there must be 278 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,080 something wrong. 279 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:21,680 We can't help but communicate. 280 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,960 We're actually always communicating even when we're not saying something. 281 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:34,560 So to build a public relations campaign, it needs to be consistent over time. 282 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,440 Consistency doesn't necessarily mean frequency, by the way. 283 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:42,240 It doesn't mean that you have to produce content every day. 284 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:49,640 Great music bands, movie franchises like James Bond, they don't come out every day or every 285 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:55,920 week, but there is consistent communication when they do come out that you have expectations 286 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:56,920 around them. 287 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,000 So you have to be consistent. 288 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:04,160 And what you also have to do is to be consistent with the language. 289 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:14,000 You know, public relations requires consistency of language because people will hear something 290 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:19,680 and it'll take seven or eight times for them to believe it. 291 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:24,640 So if you say at one time, people may have not even heard it the second time, maybe they 292 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,240 have, third or fourth time, it becomes repetition to you. 293 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,760 But to the audience, it becomes reinforcement. 294 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:37,880 So we have to bear in mind when we do public relations that we actually need to be almost 295 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:43,760 consistently dull and keep on communicating and move the conversation along at the pace 296 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:49,520 that the audience is ready to, not the pace that the internal organisation believes is 297 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,800 going to be right. 298 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:58,440 Even the people inside a company think, oh, I shared that last week, I can move on. 299 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:04,160 But actually people outside the organisation haven't necessarily heard it, haven't necessarily 300 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,720 bought into it, haven't necessarily processed it. 301 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:13,400 So keep on communicating consistently over time. 302 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,460 That's the essence of public relations. 303 00:24:16,460 --> 00:24:23,240 If we look at measurement, measurement used to be back in the early days in column inches, 304 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:31,520 we used to literally buy newspapers and measure the column inches and clients would pay us 305 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,280 for the amount of column inches. 306 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,560 Or they'd certainly motivate you and incentivise you, say if you don't get this many column 307 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,680 inches, you're not doing your job. 308 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,000 Another agency can get that for me. 309 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:49,120 So it used to be that companies like Karma, which is actually started in Australia, there 310 00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:59,400 are measurement companies like Karma and they would in the old days buy the newspapers and 311 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,520 clip them for you. 312 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:10,040 Now of course, we've moved into digital and technology is doing, listening, there are 313 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,840 companies like Karma is still doing it. 314 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:20,360 We have people like Ramiqi and Curtis doing it, but also some new entrants like Talkwalker 315 00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:28,240 are doing not just the how often your company is mentioned, but what we call sentiment analysis. 316 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:36,100 And sentiment analysis is the new, if you like, the new part that is enabled by AI. 317 00:25:36,100 --> 00:25:40,920 We used to read a newspaper article back in the mid 90s when I did this. 318 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,160 You'd look for keywords and say it's positive or negative and you'd manually put it into 319 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,920 a spreadsheet. 320 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:55,540 But on my podcast, the unnoticed entrepreneur, I have some of the originators of these technologies. 321 00:25:55,540 --> 00:26:04,240 And these really sort of technopreneurs have built the software now that helps basically 322 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:12,640 review audio, video, text, and look for not just the keywords anymore, but the context 323 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,360 and the structure. 324 00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:18,960 So now we can measure in real time what people are saying about our company or about our 325 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,480 competitors, whether it's positive, negative. 326 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:30,880 And in the case of one company called Serrano out of America, they can then use that to 327 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:37,280 see whether people have got buying intent, whether those people that are on social media 328 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,040 should be targeted with an advert. 329 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:47,160 So we're seeing now the joining up, Mitty, of commentary online with buying intent. 330 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:54,560 So measurement of public relations now is absolutely a core part of any strategy. 331 00:26:54,560 --> 00:27:00,520 And it's really, really exciting because you can then alter the strategy, frequency, messaging, 332 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:01,520 type. 333 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:09,760 Also by geography, for example, now you can have websites that are location specific or 334 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,760 even customer journey specific. 335 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:20,120 There's a company in Holland that's got a software that depending on where you have 336 00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:28,280 come from, your customer journey will serve you different content on the website. 337 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,080 So they've also been on my podcast. 338 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:38,560 So the unnoticed.cc you'll find actually 750 plus episodes with interviews of entrepreneurs 339 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:47,240 that are really shaking up the territory when it comes to public relations. 340 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:48,240 That is fascinating. 341 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:56,440 Yeah, you're really, I think you're on the top 3% of the podcast. 342 00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,880 So I mean, I definitely encourage our customers to check it out. 343 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,600 It's a really good listen. 344 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:04,600 Thank you very much indeed. 345 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,060 And it's as good as the people I have on the show. 346 00:28:07,060 --> 00:28:10,760 So I'm very blessed that people from around the world, entrepreneurs come on the show 347 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:18,440 and will share with me their innovations on really ways that entrepreneurs can use free 348 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:23,280 and creative tools to get noticed. 349 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,320 Very useful. 350 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:37,400 Going back to your answer, I think it's really, like I said, I'm really dipping into it. 351 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:43,800 And I think we have a tool called YouGov, which is a British company that we're using 352 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:45,680 for brand awareness measurement. 353 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:55,960 And they kind of do some of those things like measure the sentiment of people across the 354 00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:05,600 globe about our company, or depending on what area geography that we cater to. 355 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:12,260 I think one of the important things that came to my head was with the digital tools, it's 356 00:29:12,260 --> 00:29:17,960 so easy to change strategies in real time. 357 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:23,400 You're getting feedback in real time versus newspaper clipping and things like that. 358 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:34,640 So it's much more robust and helpful, but also it ties back to the other insight that 359 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:41,360 you don't want to change the messaging or consistency of messaging. 360 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:49,300 You got to keep the messaging consistent, but you can't change the strategy. 361 00:29:49,300 --> 00:29:53,480 How you reach out to them could be changed, but not really the messaging itself. 362 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:59,320 Well, Misha, the way I'm looking at it is that the company isn't changing dramatically 363 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:00,320 that quickly. 364 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:06,760 If you think about a big company, it hasn't overnight decided to have a new business model 365 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,000 or a new customer focus. 366 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:17,760 So what we're looking for in creative public relations is about finding new ways to illustrate 367 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:23,800 that message or that proposition, finding maybe new case studies, finding new applications, 368 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,800 finding new ways that it might resonate. 369 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:32,520 What may change is an innovation, an iteration, for example, new software release, or there 370 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,040 may be something that happens in the marketplace where then people are using the product in 371 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:37,500 a different way. 372 00:30:37,500 --> 00:30:43,440 So if we look at mobile phones, when we got the camera on the phone, all of a sudden people 373 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,440 were, oh, that's useful, but what would you use it for? 374 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,640 And we just took pictures and then TikTok came along and all of a sudden there's a whole 375 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:51,640 new category. 376 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:58,120 Well, if you're providing phones, the marketing changes from, we have a camera on the phone 377 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:03,280 that you can take a picture of yourself to, you can do streaming to your social media 378 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,160 channels. 379 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:11,840 Same product, the market's changed, so the message evolves as well. 380 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:16,040 But that consistency that you're innovating, that you've got a camera would remain the 381 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,040 same, right? 382 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,280 So that's really what we're looking at. 383 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:24,560 And that is kind of the joy of public relations is it's such a dynamic, such a dynamic field, 384 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,760 as indeed all the marketing fields are very, very exciting. 385 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,040 Yes, absolutely. 386 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:38,880 Like I said, I'm still dipping into PR and brand awareness efforts. 387 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:44,300 Can you please tell us the difference between aided and unaided surveys, which is a tool 388 00:31:44,300 --> 00:31:46,880 used to measure brand awareness? 389 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:55,460 Yes, I think there you're talking about really whether you've got somebody taking a test 390 00:31:55,460 --> 00:31:58,040 or a quiz online, for example. 391 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,720 And we've all got those, I've just gone actually from the British government to help them understand 392 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,560 demographics in my area. 393 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:09,800 And you can use tools like ScoreApp, for example, now where if you're running a survey, you 394 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:15,080 can create a survey for people and it gives them real time kind of responses and configured 395 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,080 responses to their questions. 396 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:23,160 That's leaving the individual to make decisions about their responses. 397 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:28,980 And you really have to structure the questions very carefully because the questions in an 398 00:32:28,980 --> 00:32:34,560 unaided survey are literally open to interpretation. 399 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:39,600 If you're guided in the same way, maybe you go is doing or it's us, Marie, for example, 400 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:46,760 who also came on the show on the on the I noticed entrepreneur podcast. 401 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:52,720 They are doing guided surveys where they're going to people and they're asking people 402 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,040 what their thoughts are about a particular subject. 403 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:03,240 And depending on the response, then they're taking that person that respondent to, if 404 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:10,240 you like down the decision tree, a or a decision tree B. So the guided response gives much 405 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,720 more depth of understanding. 406 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:20,580 And so presumably, it's either costs more money or you survey fewer people. 407 00:33:20,580 --> 00:33:27,080 There is a company in America called Pick For You that also came on the I noticed entrepreneur 408 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:28,960 podcast. 409 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,520 They're quite interesting because it's almost a hybrid, Mitty. 410 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:38,400 So what happens there is that if you're going to launch a new product or a service, you 411 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:44,240 put it on the Pick For You website and you can choose the demographics and you can create 412 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,400 options and you can leave a video. 413 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:55,240 And actually, you can let the survey base make decisions and respond to your product. 414 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,660 And it's been used, for example, product packaging on Amazon. 415 00:33:58,660 --> 00:34:04,400 So we're getting this blend really, because of digital technology of the guided and the 416 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:13,020 unguided becoming kind of overlapping in a way. 417 00:34:13,020 --> 00:34:16,480 What you really obviously have to do is to look for the output. 418 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:22,480 Are you looking for a statistical justification of a theory or are you looking for guidance 419 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,160 on the theory? 420 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:29,200 The unguided will give you some statistical result that you can interpret. 421 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:34,600 The guided, you could listen more and watch more and that will give you more intuitive 422 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:35,600 results. 423 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:36,600 Got it. 424 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:44,680 Like you said, guided is more in depth, knowing a little more about what the customers are 425 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:54,200 wanting, the feedback from the customers versus unaided or that will be more about what is 426 00:34:54,200 --> 00:35:00,240 the measure of your brand awareness or any theory or hypothesis that you have. 427 00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:02,640 Yeah, and it may be more open questions. 428 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:08,160 So for example, a guided question could be, how do you feel about my brand? 429 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,520 Because most people are not necessarily going to want to write that down for you. 430 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,360 Maybe they don't have the time, don't have the interest. 431 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:22,040 If you're doing inquiry rather than validation is the way I'd look at it, Mitty. 432 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:27,000 Inquiry is who, what, why, where, when and how open questions. 433 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,020 And then unguided is on a scale of one to five. 434 00:35:30,020 --> 00:35:31,320 Do you agree with this statement? 435 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:32,320 Yes or no? 436 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:33,320 Okay. 437 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:38,480 So you have a different structure of question because actually your objectives are different 438 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:44,520 depending on the kind of interview that you want to hold. 439 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:45,520 That makes sense. 440 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,440 That makes sense. 441 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,680 What's the role of data in PR? 442 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:55,560 We talked about measurement and what is the role of data in PR? 443 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:56,800 How important is it? 444 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,840 And how do you use data to drive your decisions? 445 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:06,760 Well, data has become more and more important, I think, across all marketing disciplines. 446 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:12,560 And the real issue here now in PR and others is in attribution. 447 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:17,400 So in the old days, Mitty, you'd say get an article in the Wall Street Journal, for 448 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,280 example, and it would be anecdotal. 449 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:25,680 You know, I used to get my clients on Bloomberg or CNBC and it'd be like, oh, somebody mentioned 450 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:26,680 they saw me. 451 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,000 It would be anecdotal. 452 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:39,680 Now because we can track where people have seen or read and the behavior through software, 453 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:44,800 I had the founder of a company called Funnelytics on my show, for example. 454 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:51,720 Funnelytics can track all the sources of traffic to your funnel, right? 455 00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:55,780 Because you have more than one landing page and more than one funnel. 456 00:36:55,780 --> 00:37:01,560 And it tracks it across the entire universe, whether it's you've been found on a website 457 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:08,360 from a blog post or a TV show that someone's streamed and watched on CNN, all the way back 458 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,320 to maybe the Facebook account that they tracked it on to where they shared it. 459 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:20,560 So the digital customer journey that we all have now, the footprint that we leave across 460 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:29,720 devices, even though now, of course, we have more and more privacy rules in place, attribution 461 00:37:29,720 --> 00:37:36,320 has come to public relations as it has to every other discipline, whether it's advertising 462 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:41,520 or events where we used to do lead capture on the trade show booth. 463 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,520 So public relations now is very measurable. 464 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,320 And that's a good thing. 465 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:52,760 It's a good thing because public relations plays a very valuable role at building credibility 466 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:57,660 for a brand and starting conversations for a brand. 467 00:37:57,660 --> 00:38:04,480 So really, we've got now tools, I say, like Funnelytics that are helping with attribution 468 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,080 all the way through. 469 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:12,440 And there are some platforms like Taboola, for example, where it's syndicated, it's called 470 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:17,640 syndicated discovery content, where if you have an article, for example, you want to 471 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:23,960 appear on CNN or BBC, you can put it onto Taboola. 472 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:29,040 And you'll often see at the bottom of, for example, the BBC or CNN, it says syndicated 473 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,840 content that it may say Taboola or Outbrain. 474 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,260 Outbrain was acquired by Taboola. 475 00:38:35,260 --> 00:38:43,720 And so public relations now is going into some content platforms as original content, 476 00:38:43,720 --> 00:38:52,600 as articles, but as actually as part of a syndicated content platform, which then has 477 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:58,800 the full trail of where it appeared, how many times you got read, where people read it and 478 00:38:58,800 --> 00:38:59,800 so on. 479 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:05,080 So it's been tremendous to see in the last 25 years. 480 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:10,740 I first met Jim McNamara in Singapore in 1996 when he started Karma. 481 00:39:10,740 --> 00:39:13,760 And he brought in a big stack of magazines and newspapers. 482 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:18,720 And we went through it together and looked at how he was scanning those and then showing 483 00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:22,860 me in real time, the kind of attribution. 484 00:39:22,860 --> 00:39:27,420 Now it's real time Jim McNamara can stay in Australia, not travel around the world with 485 00:39:27,420 --> 00:39:28,980 stack of newspapers. 486 00:39:28,980 --> 00:39:33,760 But public relations agencies can demonstrate to their clients the impact of what they do. 487 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:38,320 And clients can see if the budget was well worth spending on public relations. 488 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:46,460 Yeah, it's a great tool to have or great place to be and time to be able to measure all your 489 00:39:46,460 --> 00:39:50,480 marketing efforts, especially with attribution. 490 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,240 I mean, as a data guy, I think it's a double edged sword. 491 00:39:54,240 --> 00:40:00,240 I want to just say everybody else just stay quiet for three weeks. 492 00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:02,760 We're testing Jim's PR effort. 493 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,280 We can't do anything on your end. 494 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,720 We just want the data to be clean, but that never happens. 495 00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:09,200 But one day, I try. 496 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,760 We never have three weeks to wait because the world keeps moving on, right? 497 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,100 Competitors do something, the market does something. 498 00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:20,480 So we're trying to get to real time and we're getting very close, right? 499 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,600 As you know, Mitty. 500 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:29,120 So yeah, data attribution, I think every marketing discipline, frankly, every function of the 501 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:38,200 business, be it HR, whether finance, production, internet of things in manufacturing has changed 502 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,960 as well how we monitor production processes. 503 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:48,960 So data, as you know, because this is your field, not mine, is ubiquitous and mobile 504 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,560 and constant. 505 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:53,440 Absolutely. 506 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:59,960 It's really fascinating the world of our digital marketing data. 507 00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:02,840 There's so much and it's always evolving. 508 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:04,680 So it keeps me on my toes. 509 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:11,160 Yes, you're never going to be out of a job, Mitty, I think that's for sure. 510 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:17,900 Is there a difference in your approach when you're helping out an entrepreneur versus 511 00:41:17,900 --> 00:41:20,400 a small business versus a large company? 512 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:25,480 You did mention about consistent messaging. 513 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:30,840 So yeah, is there a difference in approach that you would have? 514 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:38,120 The fundamental necessity to be consistent and authentic is the same regardless of the 515 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:44,820 organization because ultimately you're trying to build a level of understanding and trust 516 00:41:44,820 --> 00:41:49,240 in the minds and hearts of all those people you need to deal with. 517 00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:53,600 And that's regardless of company size. 518 00:41:53,600 --> 00:42:00,120 The beauty of technology now really is that it democratizes the process. 519 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:07,520 So the small company, the solopreneur now has access to tools that can create content 520 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:12,880 of a caliber that a big company would have spent thousands of dollars on. 521 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:23,880 So there are tools like Descript, for example, or Veed.io or Lumen5 that enable entrepreneurs 522 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:33,020 to make videos or articles using platforms like Claude, for example, on Anthropic that 523 00:42:33,020 --> 00:42:39,260 really enable the entrepreneur to create content of a level and a speed that they couldn't 524 00:42:39,260 --> 00:42:40,520 have done before. 525 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:49,720 And the distribution tools like repurpose.io and then schedulers like Zoho or Buffer. 526 00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:55,180 Putting in place the infrastructure for a smaller company is harder for sure. 527 00:42:55,180 --> 00:43:01,920 So I think the challenge when I work with clients, so I consult Mitty for business owners 528 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:08,480 and I help them to get these systems set up, the challenge for them is bandwidth because 529 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:15,920 they're trying to manage this along with maybe HR and finance and delivering things to customers. 530 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,320 So that's really the difference, whereas bigger companies maybe have an in-house marketing 531 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:23,720 manager or they can pay for an agency. 532 00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:30,880 So the principles are the same, but of course what a smaller company has to think about 533 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:36,200 is the earlier point I made about frequency. 534 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:40,480 It's essential to still be consistent, but the bigger company can have more frequency 535 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:42,840 across more channels. 536 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:47,600 Whereas the solopreneur can choose one channel and be consistent. 537 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:54,880 So for example, the solopreneur may have LinkedIn and a LinkedIn post once a week on a Thursday 538 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,340 at 12 o'clock. 539 00:43:56,340 --> 00:44:01,020 They turn up every week on a Thursday with an article that maybe they wrote, or as I'm 540 00:44:01,020 --> 00:44:07,080 working with one client, we're using ChatGPT to help the beginnings of the article. 541 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,480 And then we're using Dali to create the images. 542 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:16,960 And then we put that into Claude because Claude's actually quite a good long form writer. 543 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:24,000 And then into Grammarly because neither of those two platforms are as good at the grammar. 544 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:28,440 So in the space of an hour, the entrepreneur can have an article that on a Thursday at 545 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,520 12 o'clock they place into LinkedIn with a nice image. 546 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,240 And that could be enough for them. 547 00:44:34,240 --> 00:44:38,320 But for the bigger company, maybe they're doing that twice a week on LinkedIn, but maybe 548 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,080 they're also putting that onto Medium. 549 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:47,080 And maybe they're also putting into YouTube, for example, a video. 550 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:52,480 So as companies get bigger, they can approach more channels with more content. 551 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,220 And almost by definition, they're going to have more customers. 552 00:44:56,220 --> 00:44:59,840 So they're going to need to be seen against more channels and with more content, but they'll 553 00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:01,160 also have more things going on. 554 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:08,320 So I think the message to entrepreneurs is to start with what is manageable and not get 555 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:15,280 overwhelmed by the need to be on Facebook or LinkedIn or X every day, all day. 556 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:19,320 Because it's more than your customers really need anyway. 557 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,520 They're just looking for reassurance. 558 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,000 So I think that would be the difference. 559 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:29,400 It's really about scale that the fundamental strategy of showing up consistently and authentically 560 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,160 has to stay the same. 561 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:38,240 The frequency changes, the channels change, Mitty. 562 00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:41,240 That's a really good point. 563 00:45:41,240 --> 00:45:42,240 Yeah. 564 00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:43,240 Okay. 565 00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:44,240 Yeah. 566 00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:55,640 So let's change gears and talk about Unnoticed Entrepreneur, your book and your podcast. 567 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:59,840 What is your book, The Unnoticed Entrepreneur, about? 568 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:04,040 Just a second. 569 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,840 My AI assistant. 570 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:08,840 I don't know. 571 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:10,320 Google picked up something. 572 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:11,800 I don't know what it did. 573 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,400 I'll cut this off. 574 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:15,400 Okay. 575 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,520 Well, that's why I don't talk in between because it makes it easier to edit. 576 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,520 Appreciate it. 577 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,600 So Mitty, you asked about my book. 578 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:28,400 This is the first edition called The Unnoticed Entrepreneur. 579 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,120 Step into the spotlight. 580 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:36,600 This is published by Wiley under the Capstone imprint. 581 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:43,160 And a big part of my view is that I'm really a facilitator, Mitty. 582 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:47,240 I know a little bit about entrepreneurship and about public relations, but there are 583 00:46:47,240 --> 00:46:49,680 many people who know much more. 584 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:57,320 But also the people that really entrepreneurs need to hear from are from fellow entrepreneurs. 585 00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:02,080 So what I've done with my podcast now with 900 episodes on the video and also the audio 586 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:10,000 and nearly 400 interview guests is to take a selection of those interviews and make them 587 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:17,740 into articles using actually some AI and some human interaction, and then to compile those 588 00:47:17,740 --> 00:47:20,240 into books. 589 00:47:20,240 --> 00:47:28,080 Because my view is if I can help an entrepreneur to have, in effect, 50 conversations with 590 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:36,160 entrepreneurs in the space of a book, that's hugely, hugely productive. 591 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:42,960 I started the entrepreneurs organization, the EO Network in Beijing when I was living 592 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,080 there with a good pal called Rich Robinson. 593 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,920 And this is back in 2007. 594 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:57,360 And the most powerful thing we've done together and that I've learned is that it's peer sharing. 595 00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:01,800 It's learning from someone that's either in the same position or has been in the same 596 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:06,120 position as you and how they solve the problems you're facing. 597 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:11,680 So the book series is entrepreneurs sharing how they got noticed. 598 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:16,160 And it covers some technology, it covers some theory. 599 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:21,740 And the first book that I published, I did on my own. 600 00:48:21,740 --> 00:48:26,760 And the second book I published on my own and I entered the British Business Book Awards, 601 00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,760 which is a great prize for a great book. 602 00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:34,600 And I was a finalist in the book category. 603 00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:39,640 And as a result, Wiley reached out to me on LinkedIn and said, would you be interested 604 00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:41,480 to publish under Wiley? 605 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,680 So a couple of lessons in there. 606 00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:51,960 One is to enter awards, great PR, if you meet people, but also you might have a chance to 607 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,920 win or get nominated. 608 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,480 And the second is to then let people know you've done it. 609 00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:03,640 So actually it was through PR, putting it on LinkedIn, that my book was found. 610 00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:08,800 So the second volume is coming out in April of this year and it's available on Amazon 611 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:10,480 now for pre-order actually. 612 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:15,080 So the unnoticed entrepreneur volume one and then volume two is another 50 conversations. 613 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,920 And then there'll be a volume three, I think in another year's time. 614 00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:24,880 So the idea is to take these amazing conversations I have with entrepreneurs that are all trying 615 00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:29,000 to be 20 to 25 minutes long. 616 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:36,360 Take them into text and make them accessible so they really become lessons that fellow 617 00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,760 entrepreneurs can learn from. 618 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:46,360 Yeah that's like distilled down lessons that we can learn from in a shorter time span. 619 00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,940 That's awesome. 620 00:49:48,940 --> 00:49:59,720 It's fascinating and it's so helpful for entrepreneurs and even people in professional jobs. 621 00:49:59,720 --> 00:50:00,720 I think so. 622 00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:04,880 The response has been really good to the book because it's accessible and because it's 50 623 00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:11,280 interviews, people can read one chapter at a time and it takes the length of a cup of 624 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:12,280 coffee. 625 00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,480 So the idea is that you can dip in and out because entrepreneurs don't have a lot of 626 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:20,800 time and actually they might just find one story. 627 00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:26,200 For example, like there's a photographer in India who during lockdown decided that he 628 00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:33,440 would take a picture of himself every day for 365 days because they couldn't go out. 629 00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:38,520 So he took pictures of himself every day and as a result then built a calendar. 630 00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:44,760 And as a result of that on Instagram people said, hey, I love your work. 631 00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:46,880 Can we have you come and work with us? 632 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:53,000 So really great stories of people doing things that are just creative and innovative, not 633 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:57,640 expensive but help them to get noticed. 634 00:50:57,640 --> 00:50:58,640 That's awesome. 635 00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:06,400 In your book you teach leaders and entrepreneurs about ways to be seen as an authority in the 636 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:07,400 industries. 637 00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,000 Can you please talk to us about it? 638 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,320 What are some of the ways to be a thought leader in an industry? 639 00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,280 First of all, you have to think of something, Mitty. 640 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:23,440 I know it sounds an obvious point, but in Venezuela people say they want to get rich, 641 00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,280 but you have to do the work to get rich. 642 00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:31,960 And if you want to be known as an authority, you have to do something or believe in something 643 00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:37,960 or articulate something that establishes you as a thought leader. 644 00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:40,640 Sounds an obvious thing to say. 645 00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:46,880 But first of all, define what it is and not too broad and not too narrow either ideally. 646 00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:53,200 So have some kind of a thesis that you believe in. 647 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:59,440 I worked with my sister, Dr. Shelley James, and what we did, we took her thesis, which 648 00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:03,760 was about the benefit of light, natural light on wellness. 649 00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:10,620 And then what we did, Mitty, was we gave her a title, we called her a Luminologist. 650 00:52:10,620 --> 00:52:16,360 So the second thing you can do is think of some kind of brand positioning for yourself. 651 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:23,480 It's great you can have your own name, that works too, and you can create your own domain, 652 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,720 own your own domain name, for example. 653 00:52:26,720 --> 00:52:31,600 You can create a logo for your personality if you like, but it's quite a good idea to 654 00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:35,580 create some kind of a nomenclature. 655 00:52:35,580 --> 00:52:42,720 So I call myself the champion of the unnoticed entrepreneur, for example. 656 00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:44,200 What do you stand for? 657 00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:48,760 And once you've got that, then you start to articulate that in terms of messaging. 658 00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:55,000 So with Shelley, for example, which is about the impact of light on wellness in schools, 659 00:52:55,000 --> 00:53:04,220 in hospitals, in prisons, in all people's homes, same content, you know, rays of light, 660 00:53:04,220 --> 00:53:06,600 but in different verticals. 661 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:11,280 And then what we can do is we can position that thought leader, in this case, Shelley, 662 00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:19,960 Dr. Shelley James, onto podcasts, writing articles on LinkedIn. 663 00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:25,200 So this is then where we get into the content production, all starting with that central 664 00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:32,000 premise, ideally with some kind of a brand proposition, and then start to create the 665 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:35,040 content and go to the different channels. 666 00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:39,280 And it comes back down to creating content consistently over time. 667 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:40,280 Okay. 668 00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:44,560 So that really is the way to start to build a brand. 669 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,440 Then, of course, there are different hierarchies, if you like. 670 00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:52,360 So creating a blog on your own website, that's great. 671 00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,960 Ideally, what you do is you start to do public speaking. 672 00:53:55,960 --> 00:54:02,640 And then what we did with Shelley was then we moved her up to be a TEDx speaker. 673 00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:08,600 So then we got her onto TEDx and her speech was seen over 300,000 times in the first month. 674 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:10,680 So she became a top speaker worldwide. 675 00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:13,360 So we went to the TED stage. 676 00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:15,820 And then it's the book. 677 00:54:15,820 --> 00:54:20,640 So actually, I have mapped out a journey, if anyone's interested in getting in touch 678 00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:27,400 with me, of the different steps that are required from going from being obscure to being in 679 00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:32,860 demand of being paid for sharing that central proposition that you've got. 680 00:54:32,860 --> 00:54:37,260 So there really is a workflow and a methodology. 681 00:54:37,260 --> 00:54:42,720 And it's very, very possible for anyone to do it. 682 00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:49,360 That is, yeah, that was so fascinating when I learned that from your work. 683 00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:55,040 But yeah, you've developed a methodology around it and that was super fascinating to read 684 00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:56,040 through it. 685 00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,240 There is a science to it. 686 00:54:58,240 --> 00:55:03,040 I know we're coming short on time. 687 00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:14,020 So let me go to questions I'm interested to learn more about. 688 00:55:14,020 --> 00:55:20,240 What excites you about the current advancements in AI and data? 689 00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:25,600 You talked a lot about how you use some of these AI tools. 690 00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:27,080 Can you tell us more about it? 691 00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:32,640 I think AI is so exciting because it's such an enabler really, Mitty. 692 00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:40,240 For people like me that can't draw or create images very well using AI like Dali or Mid-Journey, 693 00:55:40,240 --> 00:55:43,800 give me a superpower that otherwise I wouldn't have. 694 00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:51,480 They enable me to create content for courses at a speed that I couldn't hope to type. 695 00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:55,320 That's selfish though, in that sense, I'm talking about me. 696 00:55:55,320 --> 00:56:00,360 But I think AI is also really, really exciting for all those people that have maybe some 697 00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:01,360 challenges. 698 00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:09,360 So for example, if you are visually impaired, AI is now helping people to take text into 699 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:11,520 audio, for example. 700 00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:16,960 So it's possible now then to put text in and text to audio. 701 00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:23,120 You can have text on screens, for example, e-readers. 702 00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:27,200 So that's an enablement part as well, I think, AI. 703 00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:34,640 I think AI is also enabling people to bring goods and ideas to market at a speed and with 704 00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:38,260 such a reduced level of risk. 705 00:56:38,260 --> 00:56:44,840 So I met some young people that have got a business plan evaluator and you put the ideas 706 00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:53,880 in and it finds other businesses that are similar or not and evaluates the risks. 707 00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:59,560 So we're going to get into ideation and accessibility in a way that isn't possible. 708 00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:05,120 And I think it's very liberating because people in other markets, maybe for example, maybe 709 00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:09,840 India, for example, where they may not have access to capital or infrastructure, they 710 00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:15,520 can create goods and services that can compete globally using the technology. 711 00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:21,080 So I think it's really, really exciting on lots of levels, selfishly, but I also think 712 00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:25,960 in other applications around the world, it's going to be very, very exciting. 713 00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:26,960 Absolutely. 714 00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:36,600 It's democratizing a lot of tools that we've never had before. 715 00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:39,000 This is one of our staple questions. 716 00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:44,380 If money and resources were not constraints, what kind of intelligence and models would 717 00:57:44,380 --> 00:57:48,680 you wish to have and what would you do with it? 718 00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:50,880 When you say models, do you mean as a human model? 719 00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:51,880 AI too. 720 00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:57,600 I think as a human model, I wouldn't mind taking 20 years off my body. 721 00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:59,560 That would be great, but I don't think AI can do that. 722 00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:05,160 Nothing could do that, I think probably. 723 00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:14,800 An AI tool that helps young people to navigate some of the stresses and the strains that 724 00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:15,920 they're facing now. 725 00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:25,280 I have two daughters and I just see how much the young people are struggling with the future 726 00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:31,680 and even the present because a lot of what we're teaching them in schools is irrelevant 727 00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:38,680 because it's dated and they're facing such uncertainty and at the same time, so much 728 00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:39,680 social scrutiny. 729 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:43,640 I think it's a very toxic mix. 730 00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:51,520 If I didn't have a budgetary constraint, I would like to find ways to create an AI that 731 00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:58,280 would reassure young people that at the end of the day, life comes down to people and 732 00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:03,320 those relationships that I mentioned at the very, very beginning and that the technology 733 00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:07,880 is there to serve us, not to enslave us. 734 00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:10,560 That's what my AI would do. 735 00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:13,840 That is such a profound answer. 736 00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:19,480 I totally agree with you. 737 00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:25,640 In their growing up years, they've been bombarded with so much negativity on one side, uncertainty 738 00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:34,400 with the climate crisis and changes in technology and there's so much to unpack there. 739 00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:36,840 That's a really great answer. 740 00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:37,840 Thank you. 741 00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:45,160 And world peace, of course, and end human suffering. 742 00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:46,160 Absolutely. 743 00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:49,160 But I have a nice, simple answer. 744 00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:50,160 That's absolutely. 745 00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:53,640 That's a great way to end our discussion here. 746 00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:57,440 I appreciate you so much for taking the time. 747 00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:08,120 Thank you for being here, Jane.