Welcome back everyone to another episode of the
C &S podcast. Our guest today is Mitchell Hamilton.
He is a business owner and a father. Today we
will discuss the importance of culture within
a team. Why helping people helps you make more
money. The sacrifices it takes to raise a family
and build a business. His advice for young students
and entrepreneurs. Why work ethic is what makes
you great. The secret to building a culture of
ownership. And much more. If you like this show
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family man, and we met at business school, which
was great. But I want to lead into you founding
Three Point Mortgage. We just had a big celebration
with your logo launch party. And one of the things
that stood out to me the most was how community
involved it was. Like everyone there cared about
the vision. Everyone there. was on board with
it. Everyone there was really happy to be there.
It was like, we're doing great stuff. We're going
to keep doing it. We're going to build it bigger.
So I'm curious how, if you ever knew that was
going to happen, the huge community that you
built, and if so, how did you do that? No, and
I love it, man, because when we, when I first
kind of founded it, I took a very, very hard
approach on making sure that, you know, culture
is everything to us. Like culture is one of the
most important things. that we can possibly have
because it's, you know, um, I don't know if you
guys have seen this Simon Sinek talk about, uh,
his time with the Navy seals. Nope. Um, so he
said, um, you could think of like an X, Y axis
with like trust and performance and, you know,
performance, there's a thousand different ways
to measure it. There's almost no ways to measure
trust, trust. Um, they basically said it was
like the, you know, would I trust you this person
with my wife and kids? Yep. Um, so very easy.
Nobody wants low performance, low trust. Everybody
wants high performer, high trust. But what they
really found in the Seals, the high performer,
low trust is a toxic team member. So the Navy
Seals would even take that medium performer,
high trust, sometimes even low performer, high
trust over that high performer. So it's, you
know. That really kind of resonated with me and
Cassie in our office was the one who, you know,
when we first kind of launched this, she was,
gosh, employee number five or number six, something
like that. And she told me when we were interviewing,
she was like, you probably said the word culture
like 12 times in the first hour of our interview.
And she's like, I couldn't understand what that
really meant of just like, I guess, like no weirdos
in the office. Like, what does that really understand?
Now she kind of says like, it just goes so much
deeper than, you know, it just having good people
there. She was like, I even like when everybody
brings their spouses around, it's just like everybody,
it just has that energy where it's there. There's
no assholes in the room. Yep. And it's, that's
such an amazing thing where it's like, you know,
we've all, and that was the last piece of Simon
Sinek where he was just like. every office has
an asshole. If you don't think they are, you're
the last hole. And he was like, and then they're
very, very easy to pick out. He's like, walk
into it and say, who's the asshole. And everybody
will point at one person. And it's, we truly
don't have that here. Um, and that's why I would
be the asshole. I know, I know. Um, But that's
why when we have a celebration like that, I mean,
it's so funny. Like, you know, we were anticipating
we're like, are we going to have like 50 people
here? Are we going to have like 60 people? Like,
crap, what if only like 20 people come? We got
way too much pizza. And then it turns out we
ended up having to order pizza like three more
times. We end up having like over 200 people
show up, which is, you know, it's so humbling.
it's just so much fun honestly building this
and it's um it's almost funny like even you say
like the energy that we have that you know we
just put out everybody's been saying i know it's
the new wave of just saying the aura but it's
like everybody keeps saying that to us you guys
have aura yeah we have aura yeah um we were on
uh sean washington uh uwm it was a funny thing
like even he was talking to us and he was like
man like even your guys group out there i met
you guys out there he's like you guys just have
a little bit of an aura about you and it's the
you know i think when you have that big community
of people that are all bought in on the same
thing. And there's no assholes in the room. Yep.
When they talk about aura, that's what it is.
It's everybody just working their tails off and
there's no egos. No. Yeah. And everyone wants
to be involved too. Like even at the party, I
saw a bunch of people who. don't work for you
and are somehow connected to three point mortgage.
And they're like, Oh, I love three point mortgage.
This is like the best company ever. They do the
best service. I've never met a team like this,
which is so cool. And I love it, man. And I appreciate
you. I appreciate you being a customer. Um, but
it's like, um, you know, it's not, sometimes
it is hard to do the right thing, but it's the,
we just always take that high road always. Sure,
it costs a lot of money here and there. Taking
the high road every single time, it's expensive.
Can you give me some examples of that? Oh, yeah.
I mean, in our industry, it's very, very easy
where it's like you quote a client a rate, market
moves before you have a chance to lock, you go
to lock, the market shifted, rates are worse.
Are you going to call the client and be like...
I'm really sorry. It's going to cost you like
$4 ,800 more for that lock. Or are you going
to eat the $4 ,800? That's for us. It's never
been a question. It's the, you eat the, you eat
it. It's just, it sucks at times. And one thing
I've really learned, I know it just comes with
maturity too, but you know, what does getting
angry solve? Yeah. Like how does that move our
vision forward? So it's the, as difficult as
it can be at times, it's just the. And part of
that, I'll relay it back to basketball, just
that you've got to go next shot mode. And it's,
you know what? It is what it is. You've got to
move on. No sense in dwelling. It's the you win
or you learn mentality. And on to the next one.
What's your experience been like with assholes
at your company? Thankfully, at my company, we
don't have any. I truly, truly mean it from top
to bottom. But at our previous company, you know.
And not so many assholes. There's egos for sure.
And ego and asshole is a fine line. The second
that ego just gets a little bit too untethered,
you just go straight into asshole. You threaten
a little bit of the ego. They feel like they're
being attacked and then it all goes to the wall.
Exactly. And even my previous shop that I kind
of grew up in, I don't really think there were
any assholes in there. Everybody has their own
quirks. I've definitely heard stories of mortgage
is a dirty, slimy industry in so many ways. I
know other companies where you go in there and
it's a sweatshop almost. You go in a bullpen
and everybody's just screaming at you until you
make your calls. If you don't make your 50, 100
calls, they're just going to ream you and be
like... You're not a culture fit here. You're
lazy, whatever it is. And that's what the mortgage
industry used to be. I don't know if you guys
are young. I don't know if you've seen The Boiler
Room. No. Great movie, but that's what a lot
of sales used to be. It's just like everybody
in lines of desk, everybody on a headset just
hammering the phones. Thankfully, I missed that
part of the industry. Worked a fair amount out
of a bullpen, but never had to really work with
an asshole. you know, at least in the mortgage
space in my previous job. Yeah. There were plenty
of them, but that was at a gym. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
And how, how do you deal with bad hires or people
who come onto the team and you're like, they're
not the high performer, high trust that you're
looking for creating that culture? Well, and
I think we've really kind of found like, um,
high performer, high trust, of course, like,
you know, that's, that's the goal that we want
all of them. But, you know, we even have, um,
low performer, high trust that, um, kind of what
you said, like, they love the company. They bend
over backwards. They go above and beyond. They
take on additional responsibilities. It's, you
know, we have people in our company that maybe
they're not closing a crazy amount of loans,
but then all of a sudden, like they just love
everything we're doing that they chip into other
kind of places and just help out where they can.
And it's, that's why it's the, okay, that person
might not be closing a crazy amount of loans,
but. Now all of a sudden they're taking on all
these other duties. That's an invaluable member.
So it's the way we've really kind of avoided
bad hires. You've got to put the right people
in the right seats. That is, I swear, our key
to everything. That's our secret sauce. Obviously
when we met I was finishing up my MBA. My partner
DJ has his PhD in psychology. Josh Dutton, who
joined us, he's our Colorado state leader. He's
been in mortgages since like... 1998 or something
like that. Uh, Calvin Johnson, we call him the
soul of the company. I mean, he's probably the
most respected loan officer in Northern Colorado.
Um, and then Nami Pogen. I mean, he also joined
us. He's younger, uh, kind of closer to DJ and
I's age. So we have a good mix mix of kind of
the, uh, us with our younger energy and our ideas.
Then we got the old veterans that we give them
crap for being old, but we love them. Um, But
we actually have an absurd hiring process where
it's like the first time we actually had it,
DJ was actually pushing us to hire somebody.
And I met with him. I was like, dude, it's a
no for me. And we kind of had that realization
that we're like, not all money is good money.
Like we don't want every loan officer. So then
it was like a, you know, since we've continued
hiring and we have a leadership team that we
meet with our leadership team once a week. and
anybody that we consider bringing on actually
has to interview with myself, DJ, Nami, Calvin,
and Josh. And if one person says no, it's a no.
Yeah, if one person thinks the culture is bad,
they're out. Yep. And since we've been doing
that, I mean, we're knocking on the door of 40
between employees and contractors right now,
and there's no assholes in the room. That's amazing.
It's when you have to go through a five person
ringer. People have given a shit that they're
like, that's ridiculous. I'm like, if you think
it's ridiculous, you're probably not a good fit.
And you're probably not a good fit. Yeah, definitely.
But I mean, even in doing so, we actually, we
turned down a joint venture with a sizable company
here in Denver. You know, we've turned down quite
a few people that were like, this just. it's
not going to be a good culture fit and we won't
sacrifice the culture for anything because then
we won't have that same energy that same aura
going into uh those events like we had last night
it's like then everybody it just takes one person
and everybody's walking on eggshells yep once
once you lose i guess it muddies the waters a
little bit like i remember talking to to david
brown about culture and something he always brought
up was someone who's a bad culture fit is a weed
and they lower the bar for everyone else and
weed spread in a garden And your flowers can't
grow if you don't take out the weeds. So all
it takes is one and it ruins the entire network.
That's a great way of putting it. Yep. How do
you think about business school? You started
your own business. You also went to business
school. Do you think it's valuable? Do you think
people should do it? Do you think it added to
what you've built now? It's a funny thing. I
think from a credibility standpoint, it helped.
Being able to have NBA next to my name. I don't
have it in my email signature. I can't be that
guy. But it's being able to... Put it on LinkedIn,
being able to tell people, you know, when we
talk about our leadership team, it's yes, I do
have my MBA. It does have that, like, because
I am still younger to be a CEO, it's like a,
okay, maybe this kid actually knows what he's
doing. And it's, you know, I've been called the
kid so many times recently because the average
age of a loan officer is like in their 50s, like
late 50s. So it's, you know, we are very much
viewed as like the next generation, the young
kids coming through disrupting an industry. And
we're just like. guys like i'm in my 30s like
i'm in like nearing my mid -30s like i'm almost
10 years into this business i'm still the kid
yeah um but yeah man um it's just been fun navigating
that but business school it's tough it depends
on the teacher um you know and then we had uh
our communications teacher you know drier subject
but she did a fantastic job with it. We had a
marketing professor that was not great. You know,
when you have somebody trying to teach executives
that have never done it, that's why we love Brad.
Yep. Because he's... done it yep so many times
over um and we're blessed i mean that's where
um you know brad is really he's helped us out
so much i mean that's where uh i don't know if
you know brad's actually on our advisory board
yep um yeah so it's um you know blessed to have
his input so it's learned a lot in his class
a lot of it was kind of repetitive because so
much of brad's class was um do the work yep there's
not enough classes like that where it's like
we're gonna put you in the situation you're gonna
do the work yeah um there's still some stuff
like you know some of the accounting economics
quantitative analytics it's it's more just in
my mind it was like a mental exercise maybe part
of that's just because of the route i have taken
but i'm just like you know it's kind of like
when we were talking about math it was just like
when are you going to ever use this yeah um but
then one guy actually told me uh soyan shout
out soy um actually told me um the whole reason
behind teaching math is just to speed up your
processor in your brain He's like, that's just
how you learn how to problem solve. Yeah. That's
how it's like you might find different ways to
come to the same solution. Yeah. But just finding
that those different ways are really kind of
good after problem solving. Yeah. No, I was having
that conversation with actually Zeke Cameraman.
He was we were talking about philosophy and in
the same principle of learning how to think.
Yes. Not necessarily what to think. Right. And
our experience, at least at university, was that
so many people went in. not having the skill
of knowing how to critically think, not knowing
that all this information that's coming at you,
you can actually take it and disagree with it.
You don't have to agree with all the information
that's coming at you. And I think my argument
for that was philosophy is the foundation for
learning to think critically, breaking down logical
problems, and there's not really a focus on how
to think critically at university. There's just
not anymore. And it's a shame because I couldn't
agree more. I mean, you have to be able to think
outside the box and you have to be able to, you
know, nobody's, I feel like so many people just
like that creativity and it's, you know, I'm
the least artistic person that God has ever made.
Um, but it's the, you know, being able to find
creative solutions and think outside the box.
Like that's where, you know, I've really kind
of, um, grown in my career is just being able
to like. There's got to be another way. And just
constantly having that, well, I'm going to go
find the way. I'm going to go find it. I'm going
to do it better. I'm going to do it faster, whatever
it is. And that's what's kind of led to a lot
of kind of where we are, just that asking why.
Yeah. Not enough people ask why. Yeah. Just take
the information and agree with it wholeheartedly.
Oh, 100%. Somebody came to us and said, like,
you know, if they were to want to really kind
of get on our good side, like. What do DJ and
I really want our employees to do? And I'm like,
question everything. Yeah, even what I say. Oh,
absolutely. The last thing we want in here is
a yes man. We want people to come in here and
tell us the way we're doing this is absolutely
wrong and you have a way to do it better. I'm
like, we're all ears. We can't wait to find a
way. Thank you for telling us how to improve.
That constructive, critical, constructive feedback
is everything. That's how you get better. yeah
talk to me about your your i remember you telling
me about your ethos of helping 10 people every
day and that was part of how the philosophy of
how you built your business where'd you learn
that and why was that the thing you grabbed onto
um you know it's there it came from a couple
different things of um When I was trying to kind
of figure out what I wanted to do when I grew
up and was working with a startup was like my
startup went bust. And then you kind of wanted
to really kind of dive headfirst into lending
because and at the time, like, you know, when
I when I very first had to rewind. But when I
first got into lending, you know, I wasn't making
a great amount of money. It was, you know, I
got a twenty eight thousand dollar salary and
40 basis points, which. 100 basis points is 1%.
So 40 basis points is 0 .4%. Yeah. So my average
loan amount my first year was $180 ,000. So at
40 basis points, I was making like 900 bucks.
Yep. Not even a thousand. Nope. So it's, you
know, I found myself just constantly getting
distracted. You know, I found out about crypto
in 2016 and I suck. because I'm not retired.
I bought my first Bitcoin for 600 bucks and I
bought 100 Ethereum for $600 total and sold it
because I thought I made out like a bandit. And
now today, as it's about to break 100 ,000, just
could not have been more wrong and still have
some, but wish I would have had retirement money.
But it was between that, my startup, I went on
a bender trying to learn how to count cards.
Say more about that. Yeah, it's Blackjack Apprenticeship
on YouTube. Amazing. They break it down so well.
I downloaded their little app. Counting cards
is actually not that hard. But it's just wildly
dramatized. So there's still professional card
counters out there, but it's all about expected
value. So it's their expected value of return,
and it's like one unit an hour. So if you're
betting on a $5 table and you're a perfect professional
card counter, you will make $5 an hour if you
never make a mistake. very low it's not the hangover
yeah it's not you're not making out with 10 million
dollars and no no the whole and even like uh
you know love the movie 21 and it's like cool
if you have a team of people counting at different
tables and you can bounce to different tables
and i'm like yeah they wonder how they got caught
and eventually that whole thing got shut down
and it's like you know the stories of people
getting you know dragged in and beat up i'm like
it's more like we've seen it now where it's like
they just come up and they're like hey you can't
raise your bets Or, hey, we don't want you. You're
too good for us. Get out. But, yeah, just funny,
man. Went down that rabbit hole. Lost way too
much time. And then when my startup, it just
coincided where it was like my startup fell out.
This was like fall of 2019. I was like, what
am I going to do for money? And then I looked
back and now all of a sudden I was making, you
know, I think I was making like 80, 90, 100 basis
points depending on. It was like tiered out based
on how much volume I was closing that month.
And, um, then all of a sudden my average loan
amount was like 400 ,000. Yeah. So all of a sudden
I go from making 900 bucks to 3 ,200, sometimes
$4 ,000. Okay. Hey, maybe I should actually give
this lending thing a try that I've been doing
for like four years. Um, so kind of went head
first in that, started reading a ton of books.
Just, you know, I was always kind of, uh, a basher
of self -help books and kind of self -improvement
books. And it's funny, our boy Ty, I used to
say the exact same thing that Ty Silver said
of, you know, the last book I read was Green
Eggs and Ham. So stupid. I hate that joke. I
was so proud of that because I made it through
college without knowing. And I'm also an auditory
learner. You know, I'm dyslexic. I have ADHD.
Having me sit down and read a book, I'm like,
it's just not going to happen. And even then,
like listening to an audio book, I'm like, you
have my attention for four seconds and still
my brain starts wandering. I'm just like counting
the dots on the ceiling tile. Thinking about
your Bitcoin portfolio. Would have been. So it's,
you know, once I kind of saw that, you know.
how much money and how much potential there really
was there. Then it was just the, you know, the
couple of books I really read, the compound effect,
the go giver, the four agreements. Um, a lot
of these books that a lot of had the kind of
the same mindset and it was just a kind of came
to that conclusion where it was just a, you know,
as long as you find a way to help 10 people a
day, I also boiled it down. It's not the greatest
thing that people love to hear, but at the end
of the day, mortgages is just a data business.
It's, you know, the average American will have
11 mortgages in their lifetime. people move every
seven years on average so it's it was more of
how do i grow my database and have a higher number
on my database and understanding that like the
more people in my database the more business
i will do but how do you make those people not
feel like a number yeah so it's giving that high
level of service so that you can continue growing
that And that's where it really boiled down to
was it originally started with, like, how do
I add 10 people to my database every day? And
then I kind of recreated it to just find a way
to help 10 people every day and then just had
that mindset. I'm like, business will take care
of itself. And then it coincided with property
tax appeals. So I built my entire foundation
of my business on property tax appeals. Say more
about that. In the state of Colorado, every two
years is a reassessment year. So this next year
is a reassessment year. So I'm glad you and I
are talking about it because we'll help you out
with it. Come January, you're going to get your
new property tax bill. It's going to go up. You're
going to call me. You're going to be pissed off.
Why did my taxes go up? The counties just, they
cherry pick just the absolute highest comps they
could possibly find because that's in their best
interest and you can't hate on them for it. I
remember I found it because when I bought my
first home in 2017, I bought it in the window
for this reassessment period where they just
use a two -year rolling average to pull comps.
I bought it for $273 ,000. I get the property
tax bill, and they billed me for $330 ,000. I
bought it in the window. What do you mean it's
$330 ,000? I bought it for $273 ,000 in the window.
I sent that in. I sent all the appeal work in,
and they knocked it down to $300 ,000. appalling
to me um and i called them complaining and they're
like oh if you don't like it appeal i'm like
guys you don't understand how petty i am like
you don't understand how angry i am so it's i
just started helping everybody i could find appeal
it um and then with that goal it just ended up
being this you know it also coincided with we
did this amazing referral workshop um just learning
how to ask for open -ended referrals give people
the time to think yep um So we just started generating
referrals from tax appeals, just helping people
blindly. And then we realized you put that much
good into the world, whether it's God, the karma,
the universe, the order, whatever you want to
call it or attribute it to, you just put that
much good in the world, man. Business will take
care of itself. It'll come back to you. And then
it's just continue to grow and grow from there.
And I know Brad asked me, Brad and Betsy, when
we were going into the new venture challenge,
what's your big social mission? Yep. Like, do
you have a true, like one thing you want to change
in the world? And I just relayed back. I was
like, just find a way to help 10 people a day.
And they were like, no, think bigger. I was like,
you know, one day we could potentially grow this
company where we might have a hundred, 200, a
thousand employees one day. Yep. And if every
single person here has the mindset of find a
way to help 10 people a day. That scale. Then
we'll make some real change on the world. Yep.
Yep. And how did, I know Brad, Brad, we're talking
about Bradley Warner. He's an entrepreneurship
professor at CU Boulder. And he's also exited
a shit ton of companies. Very, very good entrepreneur.
But he would, he didn't really believe in the
vision or the stuff that was going on. How did
that feel? I love it. Yeah. I love it. It's,
you know, the same way, you know, I got cut from
my freshman year. I actually had to transfer
high schools because I got cut from the basketball
team. And I was like, but I'm going to play in
college. And they're like, my man, you're not
playing C team. So it's I ended up transferring
from Stanley Lake to random. I just had to continue
working my way up. I'm just like the walking
injury case of all injury cases and basketball.
I think I was meant to be like a world class
water polo player. Just never basketball. But,
you know, who wants to play water polo? Treading
water. I'm like. Shout out to every water polo
player ever. Can you imagine treading water while
playing? That's insane. That sounds horrible.
I remember taking swimming lessons. We had to
tread water for like five minutes, and I'd be
there with my head out, just like, oh, please
end, please end. Yeah, please end. But no, it
was funny. Like, so, you know, a lot of those
kind of memories and just emotions came back.
So I remember, I actually. Actually, Loki kind
of hit Brad up for some cash. I was like six
months removed from the program. I had this amazing
opportunity and put together a slide deck. But
I walked him through kind of the business model
where. You know, I showed him, I was like, look,
we have the chance to bring on this giant team.
I need like $250 ,000 to buy laptops and three
months reserves and, you know, all the equipment
to hire this team. And I was like, but then they're,
they're full commission employees. So, you know,
we'll make that money back really quick. And
I walked him through the business model and he
just didn't believe this existed. Where now he
loves it, where he's just cracking up at it.
yeah he was just like so you're telling me you
don't have to fund the money yourself you don't
have to put it up you just you know wholesale
the mortgage to like united wholesale mortgage
or one of our other uh investors and he's like
they pay you at closing and i'm like yeah he's
like i just there's no way i don't believe that
there's no chance it's that simple yeah it's
like I got receipts. We've been operating for
a while now. It was just funny. Then he told
me, I'm actually not even allowed to invest.
It was like he had a one -year cooling off at
a minimum thing. Protect the students. People
adore their professor and then they take a sharky
deal from their professor. The professor now
owns all their IP, part of their company. They're
like, wait, I thought you were a good person.
Exactly. When you're thinking about your journey
in entrepreneurship, how do you think about the
way you grew up and what impact that has had
on your journey? Absolutely. When I grew up,
I was born in St. Louis. My dad was in the Air
Force and he was one of the... Probably best
navigators in the country at the time. He was
actually navigator for the vice president. He
actually, the movie Argo with the Iranian hostages.
I remember calling my dad. I was like, yeah,
I've been meaning to watch this. Just watch this.
And he was like, oh, yeah, I was the nav. He
was like, I actually navigated in and got those
hostages out. And I was like, how have we never
talked about this? And that's just who my dad
is. Love him to death. He's very reserved. Uh,
you know, once he got out, you know, he got a
CPA and, you know, worked for quest and century
link. And, um, so, you know, that was my dad's
side. My mom's side. My mom was one of the top
criminal attorneys in the country. Um, and then
I am the youngest of all my cousins even. So
I don't even have a cousin. I didn't see a baby
until I was like 18 years old. Uh, which I know
for your background, it's like, it's mind blowing.
Um, but it's, so my conversations, you know,
even at the dinner table was just much more elevated.
Like, you know, There was no baby talk ever.
It was, you know, from a young age. It was just
a, you know, you know, just much more higher
level thinking, higher level, you know, conversations.
And, you know, even then they were just constantly
pushing me. You know, we didn't know so much
about ADHD and dyslexia back then. um, in the
early nineties. But it was like, you know, I
was in fifth grade doing like 11th grade or I
was in second grade doing 11th grade math. That's
crazy. It was doing like college algebra. And
then when we moved out here to be closer to my
dad's family, uh, went to public school out here.
Um, and from third grade to fifth grade, all
of my test levels went down. Why? Uh, because
when I was in public school, they were like,
um, it was dude, it was so bad. Again, I was
trying to do college algebra in second grade.
And by the time I'm even hitting fifth grade,
the first week they were teaching us how to count.
So as a kid with ADHD, you're like, count how
many blocks and bricks. I don't know if you remember
the giant thing that was 100 and then a skinny
thing for 10. Yeah, I know exactly. Yeah, so
it's like they'd put that on your desk. They're
like, look down and see how many it is. I'm like,
116. They're like, wait for everybody. I'm like.
what do you mean wait for everybody? It was like
five minutes goes by and I'm just sitting there
rocking like, well now I got to do bad shit.
Yeah. So it's, I just constantly got in trouble
and you know, grades went down because I was
like, I don't need to do this homework. Like
I already know how to do it. Exactly. Why would
I do it? Um, so then it was like, uh, my parents
got really pissed off and put me in a Catholic
school. So that's where I went to Holy Trinity.
Yep. Um, and where I met my wife, uh, funny enough.
And yeah, they just, beat the tar off us with
how much work they piled on to us it was ridiculous
um because did you go to where did you end up
going for i went to catholic school to nativity
nativity that's right that's right um which is
funny because the holy trinity was closer for
you at the time wasn't it no because we were
always in thornton i guess it's about the same
20 minutes 25 i got you yeah yeah but yeah so
it's you know Going through it all with just
my family, it was always just, you know, played
a lot of board games. It's Love Monopoly. I've
lost, like, my wife once. I'm, like, 98 and 2
overall. You're kind of cheating, though. You're
the real estate professional. It has nothing
to do with real estate. There's some negotiation,
but it's funny, man. Like, I realize in hindsight,
like, looking back on me, like, I probably always
thought differently than other kids because,
like, you know, I was... I was probably five,
six years old playing Monopoly and beating my
aunts and uncles and parents. I know I've seen
it where somebody actually broke down the statistically
best way to play Monopoly. No way you studied
that. I knew that I could have told you that
before I even read the article where it was like,
you know, the oranges are absolutely the best
monopoly because I was like, man, six, eight,
nine really seemed to come up a lot more than
all the other dice number. And it's, then I started
seeing like, there's a lot of things that send
you to jail. So that'll, you know, open up that
six, eight, nine. It's like, there's a lot of
stuff that send you to go. So the light blues
giving you that six, eight, nine again, it was
just, that's how my brain was working when I
was like five, six years old. And then learning
that I was like, Holy crap. I'm just doing stats.
Yeah. Yeah. Like just analyzing data on the fly
where I'm just like trying to find a way. I'm
like, how do I get these two monopolies above
all else? Because anything else is crap compared
to the oranges. It's just funny, man. So growing
up, you were always had a weird brain. Hey, I
had a weird brain, but also had, you know. a
good family that was just constantly pushing
the envelope of like, like I said, it wasn't
normal conversations. It was always very, very
high level. And just, you know, my parents and
my brother really pushed me because my brother
is just insanely smart. Just, um, just a ridiculous
amount of knowledge in his head. Um, but it's
the, you know, so it was always just, I don't
know, other people going to school. It wasn't
like a, like, like I said, the other thing is
just having no younger kids. I'm like, there
was no baby talk. There was no, I felt like so
much attention was on me because it was just
like, all right, as soon as we get through this
one, we're done. We made it. They were like,
we're just going to max him out. Yeah, exactly.
Did you know you were going to be an entrepreneur?
Probably deep down. It's so funny, too. Seeing
the Hamilton musical, I don't know if you guys
have, but that whole bit on never being satisfied.
You know, I can't tell you how much that began
to resonate and hit me that it was like a, you
know, I think it was one of the Schuyler sisters
screaming out at the end of the first act of
just that, bursting out. It was like, you'll
never be satisfied. I'm like, ah, just, you know,
that's me. That it's no matter what I did in
life, it just was never good enough. It was,
you know. When I made the freshman basketball
team, it was like, all right, how do I start
playing? Then, you know, got cut. So then I transferred.
I was like, all right, how do I make the C team
and actually get playing? Then I actually got
to play. Then it was, all right, how do I make
JV? Then all of a sudden I was one of the top
scorers on JV. Then it was like, all right, how
do I make varsity? I didn't play varsity until
I was a senior in high school. No day. And even
then I didn't. I got a concussion two days before
the first game because I'm the walking injury
case of all injury cases. Yep. Um, and barely
got to play as a senior in high school. And all
I could say was like, God, I gotta find a way
to still play in college. And just emailed, uh,
and cold called every single college coach in
Colorado, uh, until, um, coach at a Otero junior
college got back to me. Um, and yeah, invited
me out for a tryout. I don't know what it was.
It was like pressure makes diamonds, I guess.
I had a couple different tryouts. Every college
that I played for, I just tried out. And that
was always like the best I've ever played was
in those tryouts for no reason. Just couldn't
miss a shot. Just playing better than I've ever
done. So I ended up getting a small scholarship
to Otero. And then, of course, they saw my knees.
I ended up having knee surgery. Otero sucked.
It was so miserable. It was actually the year
before they won the – junior college national
championship so i was there i left then they
won the championship and then all of a sudden
i go back uh when my little brother -in -law
i helped him get a scholarship there and the
entire campus was remodeled new weight room new
dorms everything they're like yeah it's crazy
what winning a national championship does it
brings so much money into the school i'm like
if only i would have waited um but went out to
cerritos uh same thing it was just like a how
do i find a way i just want to get a jersey just
to be able to say i accomplished that goal and
played in college yep The second I got the jersey,
it was like, all right, I've got to find a way
to get minutes. And then as soon as I started
getting some minutes, it was just the, I've got
to find a way to play at a Division II at least.
And then I got a scholarship to play at Regis.
Again, walked on to Regis, got a small scholarship,
mainly academic. But as soon as I got there,
it was like, all right, I've got to find a way
to get minutes. I've got to find a way to go
play overseas. And then my body was like, just
stop. You have to stop. You know, that same kind
of mindset, you know, when I started, you know,
really focusing on originating. I just kept climbing
and climbing and climbing. And, you know, I hit
the top whatever 1%, the Scotsman guy. I don't
know what exactly percent I was. But, you know,
had a really great year, couple years, really
built up. And I'm just not a money -driven person.
It's, you know, clearly I wear very fancy labels.
Just the Nike Outlet store next to me. I love
it. But it's the, you know, it was just always
trying to climb and see that next level, just
trying to level up at all times. So it's, you
know, when I hit the Scotsman Guide and I told
my former mentor that, you know, if he had hired
me, because I didn't know what credit was, I
had 10 different mortgage companies turn me down.
I tried to actually go work for BBVA and they
said, you have the personality and the acumen
of a CEO. So we can't hire you to be a loan officer.
The lowest level we can hire you is a branch
manager. I was like, okay, cool. I'll take that.
I'll figure it out. And they're like, yeah, you
need two years experience. I'm like, start me
as a receptionist. Start me as a janitor. I'll
work my way up. I have no fear of that. I have
no fear of hard work. And they just refused to
hire me. And so he took a chance on me. I told
him, you know, if you take a chance on me, I
don't know how you measure anything in this industry,
but I'll break every record you have. Um, and
then it was a crazy thing. It was actually our
Christmas party. Um, uh, he announced that I
broke every record that they had, uh, highest
volume, highest units, everything. And it was
the most empty deflating moment imaginable because
I set that massive goal out for myself and then
it was gone. Yeah. You had nothing left to, to
beat. No, no goal to beat. There's just nothing.
So then I asked him, I was like, what's next?
I've always had that very clear vision of what
the next level is. So if there's no next level,
what do I do here? And he's like, you beat it
again. You do it again. You prove it wasn't a
fluke. I'm like, no. I know it wasn't a fluke,
so no. That was such a struggle for me. That's
why I think about how hard it is for professional
athletes to repeat as champions. You just accomplished
a life goal. There's nothing higher than that.
And you're supposed to just go do it again. You're
like, I already did it. It's the next level.
That's why the Spurs, I don't know if you know
this, the whole Tim Duncan, Ginobili, Parker,
they never won back -to -back. It's crazy. So
I knew I was getting to that point where I needed
to find that next step of, like, I have to level
up. I have to keep growing. Otherwise, I just
can't stay still. So I knew I was going to do
something else. And, you know, they pushed me
to be a branch manager. They showed me behind
the curtain. I took a couple recruiting meetings.
I talked to, like, probably eight or ten different
mortgage companies. And honestly, like, just
the amount of greed in this industry was... disgusting
appalling uh the lack of transparency um it was
just it was horrible to see yeah um and that's
where i just had this vision where i was like
you know i can do it better yeah um and it was
funny it was actually uh everybody thinks it's
a basketball thing that i named a three -point
mortgage was actually our insurance agent that
named us why So, I was trying for, like, two
weeks to name the company. And, again, least
creative person on earth. So, I'm, like, just
Googling, like, names. Like, I could not think
of anything. The mortgage company. Yes. Something.
We actually have, like, one of our vendors, the
licensing store. Oh, God. Shout out Ryan Kinch.
The loan store. Shout out John Lally. It's, you
know, it's too funny, like, seeing everybody
struggles with names. So, I was sitting there
talking to my insurance agent, Alex. And he's
like, well, what do you want this company to
be about? I was like, honesty and transparency.
Because what I went through, seeing the back
end of mortgages, seeing the greed, seeing the
lack of transparency, seeing it all, it infuriated
me. So then it was the, I was like, I've always
built my thing on like, right? Help 10 people
a day. Give a higher service. Just be better.
Give a better service than anyone. I also learned
that you give high service because you're selling
ridiculously high rates. So you have to give
a high service because if they focus on the rate,
you lose. So it was just a crazy thing that didn't
realize that's why I was giving such a high service
and trained on it. And I was like, and then we're
going to be like brokers. So we're going to be
really cheap. And he was like, cool. Don't say
cheap. He's like, you say value. He's like, call
a three -point mortgage. Get a good triangle
logo. Throw honesty, service, and value as a
tagline at the bottom. Call it good. He's like,
plays on your basketball background. He's like,
get some good blue color because that's good
for financial institutions. Like, this isn't
hard. I was like, dude, slow down. I'm writing.
And then sure enough, there's the logo. We got
on Fiverr. And designed it with Fiverr? Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Went straight to Fiverr. We went
to like, I think we contracted like 15 different
graphic artists. So is there 15 logos somewhere?
Yeah, yeah. In a folder. God, they're bad. So
bad. So it's, you know, just kept going with
different iterations until we found the one that
we dialed in on. And we were just like, we always
kind of thought it was like, you know, it was
okay. It was a placeholder. And then once a DJ
finally came, he was like, all right, the second
we have money, I'm going to go redo the logo.
It was like, again, me being the least creative
person, I was like, you know what? I think it's
best if you just keep me out of it. I'm like,
as long as you get something like a coin that
you can put on a hat or something, because we
tried to put this logo on there. I was like,
it's just a random triangle. Okay, something
that relays back to the brand that we could put
on a hat, put on a coin, something like that,
and then whatever you want. So I think you did
a fantastic job. I mean, you've seen the new
rebranded. What are your thoughts? It looks way
better than this. It looks way better. Way better.
Luke Peach was the designer that we brought on.
He just did such an amazing job. Yeah. You were
talking about never being satisfied with your
goals. Like you hit one, none to the next. Do
you ever get worried that you'll just like...
beyond this continuous cycle of breaking goals
and and not necessarily being satisfied with
any of them you know it's uh it is a dangerous
thing um because i know um You know, I've gotten
to know Matt Ishby a little bit. You know, we've
traded some emails. We've gotten to talk briefly.
But, you know, a lot of him, everything I hear
from him, we're very, very similar. And shout
out to Matt for signing my Nuggets championship
banner. It's a funny story, but it's, you know,
he had that same kind of mindset where it's the,
you know, even when I was just out there this
last week, he was like, he wants brokers to dominate
because we are so much better for the consumer
at the end of the day. He's like, you know, right
now brokers only actually have 24 % of the market.
It's all retail. It's all retail and correspondent
lending. So he's like, I want to push that boundary
to, you know, 25%. The second we have 25%, he's
like, I'll do the small celebration in the world.
And the back is, all right, how do we get to
30 %? Yep. It's like, and then what's your goal?
He's like, then we'll be like, well, how do we
get to 50 %? And it's that same mindset where
it is like, you know, I think. People like him,
people like myself, and, you know, I'm honored
to even, you know, I'm a humble person, so I
don't like my ego. I don't want to have an ego.
So it's like even trying to compare myself to
him when he's done so much, you know, just an
idle mentor of mine that I'll just look up to
him. You know, but even kind of saying that we
have those same characteristics and those same
traits that it's like, I know we're going to
do something big with this company because. I
eat, sleep, breathe. The second I wake up, I'm
working. Before I go to sleep, I have to fall
asleep to the office or Parks and Rec, something
to occupy my brain because I'm just thinking
about work. I think it is just going to continue
growing and growing and growing. I don't think
that's why I set my next goal on the moon. My
goal is to build the company big enough to buy
the Denver Nuggets. You know, it's funny because
when I set that goal, it was like because I love
NBA 2K. And I was always like, I can take over
the Nuggets and win a championship. So then me
getting to be there and watch them win it live
in person, I had an existential crisis because
I was like, oh my God, they did it without me.
I can't do it anymore. The goal is gone. What
is life? My goal is meaningless. So it's like
I still want to, maybe I'll buy the Hornets and
try and turn them around. I'm like, I'm better
than Jordan at running a team. Yeah, yeah. Something
like that. But, you know, it truly is. Like,
you know, I feel like I really had to put that
ridiculous of a goal out there so that, you know,
I have something to chase. And it's crazy that,
you know, that goal's on the moon, but it still
feels attainable to me. I think, you know, I
really think, you know, you give us 10, 15 years,
I think that's kind of the timeline. And Matt
Ishby, I mean, he bought the Phoenix Suns cash
at 44 years old. Yeah. It's going to be you.
If he can do it, why not me? You just got to
work harder. And how are you able to do all of
this while also raising a family? You're going
to buy a basketball team and you have a few kids,
a wife, working all the time. The most understanding,
patient, and loving wife God has ever created.
And we have such a good balance. I mean, we've
taken more of a traditional role where, you know,
she does do a lot of, you know, raising the kids.
She worked her ass off to graduate from Regis
with her BSN. And, you know, it took her six
years to do it the same way, you know, it took
me six years to get my bachelor's degree. She
graduated at the top of her class and passed
the NCLEX on the first try. There's a big need
for bilingual nurses. I know if she wanted to
go make six figures tomorrow, she can go make
six figures, but she's choosing to stay home
with our kids. I'm so grateful for that. We'll
always be grateful for that because it's the
who better to raise their kid than their mom
or their dad. She just has such a level of patience
with the boys. Um, I know I don't have, she's
such a better parent than me. Um, I can't wait
until like, because again, I was never around
kids. So it's, it's all so foreign to me, but,
uh, I can't wait for kids to be, you know, like
when Derek is five or Damien's five and we can
actually like play a board game. Yep. I'm going
to beat the crap out of them until they beat
you. It'll never happen. It's, it'll never happen.
Uh, But even like we play basketball now in our
little mini hoop in the living room, and it's
like Sander gets mad at me because I've like
blocked Eric nonstop. I just won't let him score,
and he's just throwing a tantrum, and I'm just
like laughing at him, dribbling around him, dunking
him. He just gets so angry, and I love it. And
Sander's like, you're going to make him hate
it. I'm like, no. He keeps coming back. Yep.
I'm like, I recognize that in him. He's getting
his ass kicked, but he keeps coming back. Yep.
He's got that competitive edge. He does. Yeah.
So it's, I can't wait. It's going to flourish.
We tried T -ball. It was the worst experience
imaginable. Like he just didn't want to go on
the field. It was like, like. And herding sheep
doesn't begin to describe because I think herding
sheep would be easier than three -year -old T
-ball. It was so bad. It was cute as hell and
it was funny. But yeah, once kids are a little
bit older, I'm so excited to spend more time
with them. And that's where we kind of looked
at it right now. Like these are the grind years
where it's, you know, this is a chance to really
kind of lay the foundation and continue to build.
And that's the craziest part, man, is now like.
We brought DJ coming on as my president, Josh
and Nami and Calvin coming on. Now Galena just
came on as our director of business development.
It's growing without me. I don't have to be the
main engine. I don't have to be the main driver.
We laid such a foundation. And now that we have
Connor, who is just a machine, we've just been
so blessed to build this amazing team. I think
if I were to stop and step away for six months,
I'd come back and the company grew. So then it's
just a scary thing when it's like, you know,
if I'm pouring all myself in and everybody's
pouring all themselves in, how fast are we really
going to grow this thing? And it's all just the
same thing based on word -of -mouth referrals.
You know, we've grown to the size we are. Not
one person in this company has ever made one
outbound call trying to recruit somebody to the
company. All 100 % word -of -mouth referrals.
What have you learned about human psychology,
about people being on the phone all the time,
selling? Yeah, it's a funny thing that I think
any good salesperson... Even when you and I are
having a conversation on the phone, I picture
you and I picture what you're doing on the phone.
You said high empathy always. You have to really
kind of put yourself in their shoes. I mean,
that's what the good salespeople do. It has nothing
to do with, you know, sell me this pen crap.
It's the, you know. You've got to get deep with
them. You've got to be able to figure out what
their goals are, who they are as people, what
are they trying to accomplish, what are their
motivations, what are their hesitations, and
really go deep in trying to understand how can
you help this person. It has nothing to do with
selling. When you truly kind of focus on that,
and the same way we translate it to employees,
where it's like there's so many other shops and
mortgage companies that they want everybody to
be a $100 million producer. which is great for
the company, but what if they don't want to be
a $100 million producer? We have people in our
office where it's like, Cassie, we love Cassie.
She doesn't want to be a $100 million producer
and work 80 hours a week. That's not her goals.
She loves being an amazing mom, being an amazing
wife, going to church and being involved in her
community and her faith, and work comes after
all of that. So if we were to try and turn her
into a $100 million producer, how's that going
to go? Horribly. So that's what we've really
found is that going back to the Simon Sinek,
we'd rather have the high trust for everything.
And regardless of what your kind of production
is, if you're profitable, even a few dollars
to the company, but you're high trust, you're
good for the culture, we're like, you have a
place here. It has nothing to do with just, you
know. demanding everybody be these ridiculous
high performers. I was sat with Philip Folsom,
and he was talking about having a shared mission,
shared vision, shared values, and how all of
those have to be aligned within an organization,
within a family. And what you're talking about
goes along with that same line of thinking, which
is, oh, someone on the team might have this goal.
Someone on the other team might have this very,
very different goal. 100 million producer versus
I just want to make enough money to help my community.
And how do you fit that into that larger org?
It's a really good question because you've got
to think that we all have this common goal that
has nothing to do with personal production. So
it has nothing to do with even company production.
It truly is so much more about building a community
and building something much bigger than ourselves
that, you know, and to show it like DJ and I,
I don't know if I shared this with you, DJ and
I actually. So we took a pledge. It's funny.
I'm trying to give DJ ownership in the company
because right now on paper, I still own 100 percent.
But we found out, like, if I just gave him ownership
today at our current setup, it would be all like
capital gains, taxable income. Really? Yeah,
so he's like, okay, so please don't give me...
He's like, I don't want to pay that. Yeah, he's
like, please don't give me ownership right now.
So we're trying to launch an ESOP, an employee
stock option purchase plan. Turns out those are
wildly expensive to launch. It's like... about
40 to $50 ,000 to go through pro formas, 10 year
feasibility analysis, restructuring into a C
corp, um, doing so much stuff like that. And
then you have to self fund it for minimum $175
,000. And it's like, I don't know if all these
are a hundred percent facts. These are just what
the attorneys kind of that we worked with told
us. And, um, And then it's going to be another
$10 ,000 of annual maintenance. So we realized
this is going to cost us $250 ,000 to be able
to give stock options to our company. But we're
so excited to do that in Q3, Q4 next year. It's
just when the time comes for it, and we have
that in the budget. But DJ and I took a pledge
that we can't say we're the least greedy people.
We can't say it's all about transparency. We
can't say that we're not here for the money and
then not. do something big to stand behind that.
So we actually took a pledge that we don't make
money on the backs of others. Every single dollar
that anybody makes the company goes directly
back to improving the company. When the company
can no longer be improved by money, we're building
our reserves. Once we hit a six month reserve,
we're launching our real estate hedge fund. Then
I think we're going to do something like 50 %
of the profits of that real estate hedge fund
get directly re like a profit sharing and redistributed
back to the employees. And on top of that, we're
putting 20 % of the company into the ESOP. So
that way, employees will have ownership in the
company. They'll see profit sharing from the
company. When we say we're here to disrupt and
we're not here to be greedy, it's one of our
favorite things. I'm like, stand on business.
Go be about it. And what's the hardest lesson
you've learned on your journey as a business
owner? It sucks, man, but it's like realizing
we have a lot of people and we have an amazing
culture that everybody cares deeply about the
company, and I don't question anybody's kind
of how much they care, but there is an element
where at least early on it was like realizing
why doesn't everybody care as much as I care?
Again, maturity comes through two years later,
and it's like, well, yeah, they didn't have any
ownership. Yeah, I own the entire company. Why
doesn't somebody work as hard as I work for my
company? I don't understand. Of course they don't.
And that's part of why the ESOP is so important
to us. Let them have ownership. Let your employees
be bought in. I think it's a no -brainer. And
we haven't seen, I don't really, at least there's
no mortgage company that I know of that has really
taken that approach. And it baffles me why nobody
has. But it's just this steel curtain of just
hiding behind in this industry that nobody wants
to talk about what's there, what kind of money
is there on the back end. It's just not really
showing anybody. It's like you start asking questions
about, hey, where's our margin? It's like, why
are you asking about my margin? That's none of
your business. So we're just trying to burn that
to the ground. So you would say the hardest lesson
you learned was people not being aligned in the
same way as you are? Exactly. Tampering expectations.
Because for me, it was the... Again, I don't
think about anything but work at this point.
It's like work and family. So the second my kids
are down and Sandra's like, hey, I had a rough
day. I'm going to go to bed. I'm like, oh, sick.
I can get back on the phone. Who can I call at
8 .30 p .m. to talk shop and talk about how we
can grow this business? And I'm like, what do
you mean nobody wants to talk at 8 .30 p .m.?
And it's one of those realizations where it was
like, okay. you know if they don't have ownership
in the company if they don't have you know not
not everybody has those same goals that same
drive that same you know uh that same fire to
just constantly work and do nothing but work
like i know that's where dj and i you know we
we've gone on trips together and it's like our
wives really ask us like you guys really talk
about work for like 20 straight hours we're like
fuck yeah yeah like yep Hell yeah, that's all
we talk about. And now Jaden Hansen who came
into our lives. It's like we go to Phoenix and
it's like, okay, we're literally in Matt Ishvia's
suite and sitting courtside and all we're talking
about is work. And it's, you know, now it's like
I've aligned myself with those guys. So it's
like, you know, DJ and I and Jaden were like
texting each other back and forth at like 9 p
.m. Like, what if we did this? What if we did
that? So it's, you know, early on it was. It
was difficult because I didn't have that true
partner. It's so trying to find the initial people
of, you know, why doesn't anybody care as much
as I care? That's a really hard thing that I
know. Like I watched my aunt, my aunt owned a
honey baked ham store up in Grand Junction. And
I saw the same kind of thing where I was like,
why don't people care? Like it blew my mind that.
I was like, you know, grown adults, like, you
know, I'm going in there and I'm working harder
than I was like 11 years old. Yeah. Working harder
than grown people getting paid to do this when
I'm getting paid like $3 an hour. Yep. Like,
why isn't everybody working as hard as this?
And it's, I think that truly is like trying to,
and again, it's, it's the cult. And that's probably
why looking back, like why I say culture is everything.
Yep. It's finding those people that are bought
in as much as you are. Yeah. No, I've definitely
had that thought process before where. You just
see people around you. I guess especially in
my generation, it feels like a lot of people
are just giving up. There's a lot of hopelessness,
I think. Yeah, and that's sad because there's
so much opportunity out there. Yeah, definitely.
And then it's easy to get upset at the world,
get upset at other people for not wanting to
try hard, for not wanting to put in effort to
achieve their goals. It doesn't really do anything
for you other than make you angry. Right. And
then again, going back, what does anger solve?
Nothing. Then don't get angry. Just move forward.
And that's the craziest thing. I've seen so many
young entrepreneurs, even younger than myself,
that there's so many, especially in today's age,
so many industries are just ripe to be disrupted.
there's so many opportunities you just got to
be able to go out there and look for it that
it's and then once you have that mindset of going
in there and trying to always be open and stay
looking for opportunities you just find them
everywhere like there's so much opportunity everywhere
you go and that was the next kind of big problem
I think I found the second biggest issue was
like When I opened the mortgage company, I think
you even came in and I showed you my master plan
of like, all right, we have mortgage. And then
we're going to do title. Then we're going to
do insurance. Then we're going to do property
management. Then we're going to do these 11 of
the other sister companies and subsidiaries.
And then when we got up with Sean, I was like,
then we're going to do three -point health. And
I found a weight loss person. I found a gym guy.
I found everything. I'm like, I'm going to build
like 15 businesses at once. And it's being able
to, you know, put blinders on and maybe I should
actually focus on standing up one business first.
And, um, it's so funny. It was actually, uh,
so David Mackin's brother, Dan, uh, he was actually
sitting right here and he and I were talking
and he was like, you know, when David first joined
me, cause he joined me like 45 days after we
opened the company and he was watching me go
through this phase of trying to figure out, you
know, how to stay focused and what I wanted to
do. he was just cracking up and he was like will
this guy ever just fucking pick a thing and go
with it yeah and he's like whenever he does it's
going to be amazing he's like but until then
he's trying to do you know 20 things at once
which means you're a master of none yep yep um
so it's you know being able to put blinders on
and truly only focus on three point has been
tough because you know then opportunities come
like kushong where i'm like dude seeing cloud
nine and seeing cld9 and he was like hey do you
want to come get involved i'm like And once again,
I'm like, fuck, yeah. Like, I do. Hell, yeah,
I want to get involved. And then I'm just like,
I don't have the time. Yep. As badly as I'm like,
oh, I have so many ideas, so much vision. I'm
just like, I can't do it. Yep. Because then you
go back to, like, at least having some semblance
of a balance. I'm like, I guess I could do it,
but then I just have to abandon my kids and my
family. Yeah. Yeah. Then the priorities come
in a little bit that it's like, okay, I'm already
working, you know, a healthy amount of hours
on three -point mortgage. maybe don't pick up
a second job yep um but yeah it's been you know
a fun time of like you know watching the kids
grow trying to be involved but still understand
like what we're trying to build yeah oh yeah
and everything comes at a cost every opportunity
you say yes to you're saying no to something
else it's that opportunity cost that you miss
out on and i think it's i struggle a lot with
just wanting to do everything all at once and
being able to actually focus in on one thing
say no to everything else like it costs you a
lot to say no to everything else it does because
you're sitting there and you're like oh but this
opportunity over here could be even better than
my own right like it's this mentality of the
grass is greener where i'm not yep and then you're
like well let's just do a podcast yep well now
this is the only thing i'm saying yes to there
you go yeah yeah Like apart from I have my full
time job and I have my investments and that podcast
is the one thing that I care a lot about right
now. And I'm I'm doing a lot of work on trying
to stay just focused in on this for a really
long period of time, because like with three
point mortgage, what are you going to do in 10
years versus if you built it for one year, went
off to do three point insurance, went off to
do three point whatever, you're going to sit
there and build. mediocre companies it's just
like they they have some success but they're
not going to to blow up and be what they could
be right absolutely it's like uh for a while
i was just calling it like a shiny object syndrome
yeah just constantly bouncing one thing to the
next and never able to stay focused just build
one thing. It's a little bit of that ADHD too.
I think I suffered from it a little bit. For
sure. It's like, everything sounds so interesting.
So I want to learn this. I want to learn that.
I want to learn everything. It's so hard. Yeah.
It's so hard to stay on. It's really, really
hard to, to dial in on one thing. Um, what was
the most recent thing you had to say no to? Most
recent thing. Uh, honestly, I think it was, uh,
cloud nine was the most exciting recent thing
because I remember, uh, I introduced him to my
buddy, Eric. Um, they couldn't, uh, come to terms
on anything, but I think I'm, I still have faith
that they can come back together. Um, cause I
think they could blow it up together. But, um,
you know, that was only a few months ago that
we kind of reengaged on it and, you know, um,
cause it was, it was right around when, shortly
before you bought your house, right? So it was
probably like five months ago that we, a little
bit before. Yeah, something like that. And it's
like time is such an enigma now that it's I can't
believe we're, you know, about to have Thanksgiving
next week. Yeah, it's already almost the end
of 2024. It feels like it just blinked and it
was 2022. So it's. It was a hard thing to say
no to, man, because, you know, my one of my undergrads
is in exercise science. I worked at a gym and
I knew all about supplements. And, you know,
I take the supplements myself. So, you know,
I'm a user of a product. I enjoy them. It's such
an easy sale. So I'm like, dude, how do you not
just go knock down doors? How do you not go to
the gym and get five people every day? Yeah.
Like, dude, I was like, if I'm running this marketing
side, I'm like. I'm not going to go to sleep
today until I add 10 new subscribers. I will
go find 10 new subscribers every day very easily
just by going to the gym and just putting the
box down on my bench and just going to talk to
people. There's so many people afraid, especially
your generation. Dude, nobody wants to just go
talk to people. Everybody's so afraid. I'm like,
just go engage. Go sit in the sauna and be like,
what are you using for recovery? I think it's
a fear of awkwardness, too. A fear of, like,
just, like, not even completely the fear of talking
to anyone. But everyone's afraid of discomfort.
Like, the discomfort of having interaction that
maybe was, like, awkward. That maybe they said
no. Because no, like, conversation with anyone
is going to end with, like, them just, like,
fighting you and yelling at you. They could.
But the likelihood of that happening from you
just saying, oh, hello, I'm selling you. this
thing or this is my company right it's so low
it's so low and uh i think one of the biggest
things that like changed uh my tone on that and
where it's like just don't have fear on approaching
anyone because um when we learned that uh that
referral workshop i talked to it's like learning
how to ask in an open -ended manner yeah because
when you talk about the psychology behind uh
asking for referral there's a southwestern coaching
southwestern consulting one of the two that um
came in and showed us the statistics behind it
and it was phenomenal data where it was like
it was something like 88 percent of people that
had a good experience said they would refer out
only like 12 percent did yeah But if you asked
for the referral, it went from 12 % to like 82%.
But you have to ask in an open -ended question.
Because if you ask close -ended, do you know
anyone looking to buy a home? Very easy to say,
no. All right, move on. Whereas if you say, who's
the next person in your circle who's going to
buy a home? Shut up. Let them think. Then all
of a sudden, their brain just starts triggering.
You start thinking of names. And then it almost
becomes that old school, like first person to
talk loses. But it's... When you do that, you
learn how to be uncomfortable in that uncomfortable
silence while I'm staring at somebody think.
Once I've done that a few hundred times, it's
asking somebody at the gym what they use as their
recovery drink or, hey, I'm looking to gain mass,
whatever it is. I don't go to the gym anymore.
It's just such an easy approach. It was something
that I was like... it was a really hard thing
to say, say no to. And even, uh, Sandra was just
sitting there watching me. She's like, please
say no to this. Please say no. Don't take more
opportunities, please. Please stop. Um, but it's,
you know, it was a really hard thing to say no.
Um, but there's always more that come out there.
And, um, I think just because I knew him as well
and knew him as a friend and your connection
to him, it was like, uh, you know, more, more
vested. wanting to see him succeed. And it was
just, again, more of like a, I can really help
this kid. Yep. But at the end of the day, like
me helping him is just taking away from the time
of me helping my son. Yeah. And it's, that's
when it really boils down to like a, like when
my son was born, that was the first time I stopped
coaching. It was the first year of my life since,
you know, I was like 12 years old that I didn't
have a basketball season. Yeah. But I realized
it was like, I can either go coach some high
school kids that I love or I can spend time with
my son. Yeah. Can't do both. yeah yeah and again
opportunity cost yeah except the opportunity
cost gets much higher when it comes to family
like it's oh i'm not gonna sit in my bed by myself
and watch anime or is it oh i'm not gonna see
my son right like those are two completely different
opportunity costs um and one of the uh it was
actually um A really good realtor that we met
with, Chris Caldwell, gave us an amazing piece
of advice that really resonated with me. He's
a great guy. And he said he was like, someone
told him, because he was climbing the ladder
at Chase. And he said, one of his mentors told
him, he was like, when you're in life, we're
all juggling multiple balls. And he's like, you
got to know that there's like five balls, four
of them are rubber and one of them is glass.
And he's like, when you think of those, they're
very easy to identify between your work, your
faith, your health, your... I forget what the
other one was, but one of them was family. And
he was like, four of them will bounce right back.
If you drop your work ball, it'll bounce right
back the second you start working hard again.
Like, you know, you drop your faith ball, God
will always be there for you. But you drop that
family ball, that's a glass one. You drop it,
it shatters, it's done. So he's like, no matter
what you're doing in life, just always make sure
you know which ball you're dropping. And it's
like, you know, real estate and lending, it's
such a high stress. industry uh loan officers
got not actually got named to be a top 10 most
stressful job in the country um you know our
emails are down today actually they've been down
since yesterday at like 4 p .m and you know the
old me would have just been in an absolute panic
throwing a fit on calls with squarespace and
our it company demanding fixes be done immediately
and then i'm just like now this i'm like if it's
really that big of an emergency like they'll
pick up the phone and call me yeah yeah It's,
there's nothing that's an emergency that can't
wait an hour a day. You know, unless somebody's
like sitting at the closing table and the wire
is not there or something like that, but that's,
we would have gotten a phone call about that.
So it's just truly understanding, like, you know,
even when everybody else is stressing out, you
got to be that calm. especially you know leading
the company now it's like everybody looks at
me to be that calm and i think it's pushed me
to mature in that way where it's like you don't
get to panic because if i'm the ceo and panicking
what's the rest of the company yeah yeah that
that reminds me of you know diogenes right the
full he was a philosopher back probably during
the same time as socrates played all those guys
except he was had a way different philosophy
on life his philosophy on life was that everything
was bullshit people were stupid and he was like
there's not really a point to anything and one
of the stories about him was what there was a
city i think athens potentially one of those
cities and they're about to be under attack by
like some other city and he's sitting there watching
everyone go into a panic just like oh we're gonna
die all this stuff like everyone's just panicking
and so he starts pushing a boulder up a hill
and just letting it go back down he does it again
And then it lets it go back down. Everyone's
like, what are you doing? He's like, I'm being
as useful as you guys panicking is. That's awesome.
Yeah. It's, it's true, man. It's, it's so much
of what we've been talking about of just that.
What is getting angry? What is panic? What does
that solve? Yeah. It's so many people. It's like,
they just don't have, I'm not saying that I'm
perfect on it, but it's just like having that
good control over your emotions. Yeah. Just don't
get emotional. Don't make emotional decisions.
Even when we've had some, we're going through
some crazy growth and we're kind of in the mindset
where we have a chance to truly disrupt an industry.
And you can't expect to disrupt an industry without
the industry fighting back. It's not like a $10
trillion industry. It's like, oh no, a 33 -year
-old is going to come. mop the floor with us.
Like, no, they're going to fight back and fight
to keep the status quo and keep things the way
they were. So now as we're starting to grow and
get some of that pushback, it's one thing I've
really started to do is like, you know, we've
had some really, really intense moments and heated
conversations. And then it's just become the,
you know what? No good is going to come from
this. Yep. It's, you know. We can talk internally.
We can blow off steam to each other. And then
it's like, hey, cool. Nobody's going to send
an email for the rest of the day. Nobody's going
to send a text. Nobody's going to make a phone
call. We keep it internal. Let tempers cool down.
That good old write the email that you want to
write, delete it. But do something like that
and then come back the next day. it truly is
and it's hard to be able to say like I'm not
gonna make an emotional decision right now when
it's like in the heat of the moment like to be
able to recognize that and that's where like
you know DJ has really come in you know being
the psychologist of the group and just being
like alright guys how about we all calm down
and he really is kind of that you know some of
that like that North Star that true calm that
center of the company that you know between him
and Calvin I really kind of resonate with those
two guys of like Those are the guys that know
how to stay calm under pressure. And no matter
what's going on around them, just this too shall
pass. And one of my old friends that I used to
work with, Brandon Schneider, he always had the
saying of, it's always sunny above the clouds.
And I had one of those moments where it was like,
man, when you're in it, I was just in the shit.
And it was just everything that could go wrong
went wrong. I was like, God, dude, this is just,
I need a sign, like something. has to be coming
from all this good. And, um, I think it was Jocko
was the one that was like, um, said every time
it was like, his dad was like, every time something
bad happened, he was like, good, good, good.
And just, you know, kept that mindset of it.
And then, so I was trying to have that mindset,
but when you're in the shit and you just kind
of keep getting kicked when you're down. Um,
and I just kept trying to hear myself. I was
like, God, I'm getting so stressed. I'm going
back to my boy's mantra. That's always sunny
above the clouds. And then I'm just losing my
mind. I click the car to turn it on and come
to work. And then the song comes on by the Beatles,
Here Comes the Sun. And it just, you know, it's
hard not to even just like break down and cry.
Just like, okay, like it's going to get better.
Like it is always sunny above the clouds. It's
just the, it's so funny, man, because now it's
like, you know, that whole saying of when it
rains, it pours. Yeah. It goes both ways. Yeah.
And it's now it's like Dean was the one who said
he's like, congratulations, you're in the blessed
rain. And it's, you know, we were talking to
another high level executive, another company
that we're in talks with. And she just said,
she's like, congratulations, you're in the gold
zone. Yeah. She's like, I've only seen like two
people ever enter the gold zone. And she's like,
I can't believe I'm in your presence. I'm honored.
And because she was just able to recognize it
right away. And we're developing our relationship.
And it was just a. You know, seeing that now
that's what we're just running around like, we're
gold zone, baby. Yeah, yeah. You know, that's
where we're in it of just the, now how do we
stay in the gold zone? Yeah. How do you keep
it going? And that's where, I don't know. Yeah,
yeah. We're just banking on do the right thing.
Just eat the frog. Just take the shit. Just,
you know, keep calm and just keep trucking along
and just pray that it continues. Yeah. Which,
I mean, it has been for a while now, so it's.
But even then, it's like the whole motto is always
being that duck on top of the water and just
having those feet kicking like crazy underneath
it but staying calm to the outsiders. Yeah, yeah.
No, yeah, and you're talking about kind of just
leaning into the fear, leaning into the discomfort,
just keep it going. And one of my friends was
talking about the way that cows react to storms
is that they run away from them. But the way
that buffaloes react is they run straight through
it. I just love that analogy so much. And what
you were saying about the referrals, that's actually
one of the best pieces of advice I've ever gotten
from you is just who do you know? And then sit
there. And I tell it to all my friends all the
time. It's like it carries over to everything,
be it business, be it relationships, be it anything
you ever want to accomplish. There is probably
the right person that you're going to meet like
three referrals away. A hundred percent. I've
built my entire business where it's like, I don't
have social media really. Like I have a Facebook
where it's like my wife tags me on stuff. I don't
really post. Um, I have never spent a dollar
on marketing. I've never spent a dollar on advertising.
It's, it is 100 % word of mouth referrals. And
now it's like, as we're growing with all these
real estate partnerships, they're like, well,
how are you going to expand in other States?
I'm like referrals. Yeah. Like, what do you mean?
Like that, that the referrals can only take you
so far. I'm like, No. Yeah. Referrals can take
you everywhere. Yeah. It's, uh, I was like top
producers, no top producers in other States.
So now it's where he talks with people in Minnesota,
South Dakota, Texas, California, Nevada, um,
Florida. Like we're now already starting to expand
into all these different States. Yeah. Solely
from referrals. Yeah. Because it's just learn
how to ask for a referral, sit there, let them
think, take it, run with it. And it's so funny.
Like you even, uh mentioning like that's such
a thing i was like the second you even put that
like that who do you know my brain starts racing
and i'm just like god who do i know that i can
introduce you for your podcast like just starts
flushing through i'm like i was like oh i don't
know don quick yep he's a district attorney he's
like uh the head of he's uh i think he's the
like head legal authority for like Broomfield
County now. Yeah. Matt LaCrue, who's a good lobbyist.
Like my brain just starts racing. Like, who can
I introduce you to? Yep. You shouldn't, dude,
we got to get Jaden on the podcast so you can,
you know, he built up mile high lifestyles. One
of the top 10 real estate teams in the entire
state. Yep. So it's, it's, it's just that power
you trigger to make people think about, you know,
how they can help you. And it's at our core,
like we all want to help each other. Yep. I don't
think there's anybody that really is just innately
like, I want to see you fail. Yeah. Like, I just
don't believe that. Like, everybody deep down
wants to help others. Yep, yep. And along with
that, I was on the phone with one of my friends
yesterday. I was like, I'm trying to get really
cool people on the podcast. Do you have any advice
for me? And he sits there and he's like, well,
everyone wants to feel good about themselves.
Yep. It's like... And how do you make people
feel good about themselves? Well, they feel like
they're giving back there. They're giving to
the community. So literally just ask someone
for advice. What was your journey like? What
was your experience? How did you learn that?
And people are like, oh, I get to help people.
I get to feel good about myself for doing that.
And you don't even have to give them money. You
can literally just ask them for advice and make
them feel good about themselves. God, you know,
now it is now that you even mentioned that it's
like a we talk about. It's different levels of
opportunities that you have to let go. Going
back to that, one of the hardest things for me
is the power of no is amazing, and I suck at
it. It's something I really need to get better
at because I know I overcommit. I know I say
yes to way too many things, but there's a lot
of it I just can't help myself because I see
people that come to me asking for help, and it's
like, how do you just outright say no? Somebody
comes to you and is like, hey, can you help me?
And you know you have the ability to help them
and you have to say no. That's hard as shit.
And I have no idea. I have no advice on how to
do that because I'm just terrible at it. I'm
like, I'll bend over backwards. I'll just figure
it out and I'll apologize to my wife. But it
truly is like now it's like I have a lot of people
who are looking to get into the industry and
they're like, hey, could you mentor me? I'm like.
No, like as much as badly as I want to say yes,
it's like David Mackin is probably one of the
things I'm most proud of in this world. And it
has nothing to do with me, but it's like he just
took the advice and he ran with it. But I gave
him really hands on mentorship. But then he did
the work. And it's so it's like there's nothing
more I love than seeing how successful he has
become and continuing to grow. I was like, how
do you not want to do that more? how do you say
like, I don't want more of that. I don't want
to recreate David. And it's the, because at the
end of the day, it's just the, that would take
away from us growing. It's, it's sad that it's
hit that, that it's like, that's too small of
an impact. Um, and it's funny, like somebody
told me, they're like, Oh, I could probably get
you 10, 15 minutes a month with Matt Ishpia.
And as excited as I am, I immediately was just
like, you know damn well he doesn't have the
time for that yeah it's as respectful as it is
and as honored as i would be it's just that it's
almost just like me understanding to him like
almost feeling like i don't want to take that
from him because i know that's 15 minutes i'd
be taking from his family or i'd be taking from
yeah something else that he's trying to grow
so it's you know it it's so hard continuing to
grow that it's like you know the second year
podcast starts getting a lot of traction yep
everybody's gonna be hitting you up hey can you
help me with my podcast you're like Well, that
means I'm going to spend time working on yours
and not mine. But I know you. You're going to
be like, of course I can help you. Yep. And you're
just stuck in that game of playing, helping other
people while also trying to build your own thing.
And then it's just the hardest thing where it's
like you say no because you know you just don't
have enough time or you know the sacrifices you're
going to have to make for it. And now you've
created someone's villain origin story because
you turned them down. And now you're a jerk to
somebody because you prioritize yourself and
your own lives over them. And it's the, it's
just so hard because we're all people pleasers.
Like I know you are just as much as I am. And
it's a guy trying to help people. Cause again,
now we're going back to the help 10 people a
day. It's like the. It's like, but no more than
10. We're capping it right there. No more. Nobody
else can get help. Yeah, exactly. And it's like
at a certain point, you have so many people coming
to you for help that it's like you have to decide
which avenue you want to help in. And for example,
your business, it's like I'm helping people through
my business, but you're also getting external
requests for help. And you're like. but I can
do more impact in my business. But you can't
explain that to someone who you're telling no
to. No, but there are the exceptions to the rule
that get made. Like, we love this kid, Carter
Gregory. We love this kid to death. He's going
to come back and work here. He calls me out of
the blue, and he says, he's like, hey, I want
to be an intern for you. I was like, absolutely
not. Like, you're still in school. He lives in
North Carolina. I was like, dude, no. It's just
a no. He calls me back the next day. He's like,
hey, I want an internship. I'm like, dude, I
could not have been more clear. Respectfully,
we don't have that position. He calls me back
a week later. He's like, all right, so I'm booking
my plane tickets. I'm going to be out there.
I'm like, what the hell are you talking about?
The answer is no. We don't have that. I legitimately
don't know what you would be doing. I was like,
you'd be shadowing. I have no idea. We're not
doing it. calls me like a month later and he's
like, all right, man, I just got in here. When's
my first day? Like I can start on Friday. And
I was like, I genuinely don't know what you would
be doing here. Like, I'm sorry. Like you have
to know the answers. No shows up to work. Everybody's
like, who is this? I'm like, I guess we have
an intern. I don't know. Like, they're like,
you can't do that. You don't have time for an
intern. I'm like, I told him that. I can't get
rid of him. He's in the office. So now he's hired.
Tenacity right there. I walk out of the office.
I was like, all right, man, you can show up.
I have a meeting. I don't know what you're going
to be doing. You're going to be shadowing people.
I have no idea. So I go leave for a meeting.
He's sitting on the couch, and Cassie looks over
at him, and she was just like, did Mitch really
just hire this poor kid and just abandon him
on the couch with nothing to do? And she was
like, I'm sorry, who are you? He was like, I'm
the intern. She's like, did Mitch give you any
kind of tasks or direction or anything? He's
like, well, verbatim, he said, I don't know what
you would be doing, but if you want to come hang
out in shadow, I guess. So he's kind of living
up to the expectation, and I don't really know
what to do. And then she just cracks up. She's
like, am I allowed to leave him alone in the
office? How are we in this position? Like what
is going on here? And then sure enough, like
two days later, I was like, hey, how about this?
Like go get your NMLS license. That's something
for you to do. He finishes the education in like
two weeks. He's like, yeah, I scheduled my test
for next week. I'm like three weeks in. He's
like, all right, I passed my test. So how can
you teach me how to go like find loans? I'm like,
dude, no. how are you doing all this? And it's
sure enough. He's like, then he comes back. He's
like, so I decided to go to this networking event.
So I got a loan in like, can you help me put
it together? I'm like, Oh my God. Like, yeah,
we can, we can do that. And it's, I'm like, that's
the perfect definition of like how you turn that
no into a yes. And now it's like, um, he really
is. He's moving from North Carolina back here
when he graduates in December. So next month
he graduates, he'll be here in January and we're
hiring him full time. That's crazy. He won't
take no for an answer. No. And now we're like,
he's going to come work here. And I'm like, we
don't have room. And he's like, that's fine.
I'll take a little corner of Connor's office.
And we're like, all right, Connor, he's your
dog. You can have him. Yeah, he's your problem
now. But it's like, you know, one thing that
we always joked about of like, what do you need
to be successful in anything you do? And it's
like. Ricky Bobby level irrational confidence.
Yep. Shake and bake, baby. Hell yeah. I wake
up in the morning and piss excellence. If you
have that level of irrational confidence, you
can do anything. And then Carter shows up. We
have no idea. And just coming in here, crushing
it. He's already has like, I think he has one
or two loans on a contract right now while in
school, while helping Connor build out our broker
matrix. Like kid ran a painting business because
he was just like, it's like saw the opportunity.
And again, so we talked about the opportunity.
He was like, he was in North Carolina. He's like
storm hit. Everybody's deck is torn to shit.
So we just go knock on doors. Like, Hey, I'll
do, I'll repaint your deck thousand bucks. And
they're like 800. He's like done. He's like,
yeah, I'd show up and I'd spend the entire day
and I'd paint their deck and make 800 bucks.
I'm like, how do you not hire that kid? Yeah.
Yeah. You have to hire him. It's, and we're so
blessed. We're so lucky to have him. We're so
excited for him to be here, but it's like that,
that, that irrational confidence and that just
willingness to just, you know, I'll outwork you.
Yeah. And it's, that's what, uh, you know, Matt
Ishby, like one of the big things he really talks
about was, um, you know, he said everybody else
had more resources than him. He's like, you know,
he always compared himself to like Rocket and
Flagstar and all the big banks out there and
all the big mortgage companies. And he was like,
you know, I don't have the same resources. I
don't honestly have the same intelligence levels
as a lot of these guys, but I'll work harder.
And he was like, you know, I learned, I think
he was saying, I'm probably going to get it wrong,
but he was like, you know, if I set my alarm
an hour earlier, he's like, I get an extra two
weeks of work every single year. so he's like
so i set my alarm two hours earlier so now that
man wakes up at like 3 30 in the morning oh god
dude is like in a suit and tie showered shaved
in the car he's like 22 minutes from the time
my alarm goes off until i'm in the car every
morning and he's just a machine like and then
he's he says he's like he's like i put my minutes
against anybody's minutes in this country yeah
so he's like so you might be smarter you might
have more money than me but if i'm getting two
more hours of work in every single day And I'm
more efficient with those minutes. I don't take
breaks. It's like, you give me 10 years of an
extra month a year. He's like, I'll catch up.
I'll get there. I'll beat you. And now he is
buying the suns and stealing my dream. And that's
where it's like, we had, like I said, we had
some fun back and forth, some banter. And I pulled
a prank on him and he had him sign the jersey.
He was such a good sport about it. And we told
him we're so blessed and grateful to have him
being such. such you know a supporter of us and
you know he just spent money to fly out um our
account executive our avp rocky and tatiana came
out of here and i don't know if you got to meet
them or hang out with them at all but you know
they came out here just fully to support us and
our growth and um they they recognize our vision
the same way um you know others recognize matt
and just passing that opportunity along and um
it's just been so much fun man yeah Yeah. You've
done some pretty amazing stuff. It was really
cool just watching you start out three point
mortgage. You had maybe what, two, three employees
when I met you and you were like, this is going
to be huge. Yeah. Yeah. We had a, at one point
we were down to one. It was just David to me.
Yep. It was just you two. We're sitting there
having beers and you're like, this is going to
be massive. Oh yeah. It's going to be huge. I'm
going to buy the nuts. Yep. And then you'd give
me business advice while I was working on my
startup. Yep. And I'd be like, okay, this guy,
it seems like he knows what he's talking about.
And then just watching you take all the advice
that you were giving out to me and doing it,
every single thing you said, you were doing it.
And now seeing that massive success, it's just
been so, so cool to watch. I appreciate that,
man. It's so funny. Like, you know, I still,
I battle with imposter syndrome like no other.
Yeah. It's the, you know, I, I very, very much
view myself to like the, I am just this very
normal guy. Yeah. Um, even right, right before
this podcast, you're like, Oh, I don't have anything
to talk about. I'm a normal dude. Exactly. Exactly.
And I still think I'm like, we didn't talk about
anything real. We didn't talk about anything
serious. I'm like, you compare this episode to
your other podcasts. I'm like, I'm sure you're
getting way more out of all the other podcasts.
Like I still believe that right now. Yeah. Um,
because it's just the, You know, I'm just, at
the end of the day, man, I'm just a grinder.
It's the, you know, even from the basketball
days, it's the, you know, I started playing,
and again, it's so funny. You got to look at
everything in hindsight. Like, you know, I can't
believe I got cut as a freshman. I didn't start
playing basketball seriously until I was a freshman
in high school, and I shot the ball like it was
a soccer ball because I was a soccer player.
I was like 6 '3", 110 pounds, soaking wet, and
I couldn't bench the bar. And I was just the
most uncoordinated human being alive. And I'm
like, I can't believe they cut me. I'm like,
I sucked. Like, I would have cut me in hindsight.
How was I so mad at them? I was terrible. But
the same thing was just like everybody else is
going out partying. And it's like, I'm in the
gym. I'll work harder than you. And that was
one of the biggest things that my uncle taught
me. My Uncle Henry sat me down and was like,
I was dating a girl. And he was like, are you
going to marry this girl? And I was like. I'm
14 years old. Probably not. Yeah. And he was
like, then why would you waste your time and
money on this girl? He says, you said you want
to play basketball in college. Yeah. What's more
important to you? Playing basketball in college
or dating a girl? Playing basketball in college.
He's like, I think you have an easy decision
to make. So I broke up with her. Yeah. Went to
the gym every single day. I thought I was so
cool because like homecoming came. I was in the
gym. Prom. Didn't go to prom. You were the guy
in the gym who was fighting demons. Big demons.
Just not good enough. It was just that level
of work ethic. It's so funny, man. We got to
fly out. My best friend in the world, Darren
Lockett. We were in Disneyland and we realized
he took me to a completely different level that
I didn't even know existed. I was a hard worker,
but he just unlocked this level of ungodly work
ethic that that's just who I am that like you
know he had such a ridiculous upbringing and
he ended up moving in with me at my grandma's
house and I would wake up to the sound of just
like him doing push -ups and I'd walk out and
I just like you know it's like six in the morning
I walk out and I just see him doing push -ups
like like dude what are you doing and he's like
I got 20 push -ups stronger than you this morning
you suck And I was like, oh, my God, this guy.
All right. I'm going to go do pushups. So I dropped
to the ground to start doing pushups. And he
just like falls to the ground. He's like, nope,
nope. You're not going to get stronger than me.
And then it's like we go to practice that day.
And it was the funniest thing. Like we get there.
So we start. Coach says, you know, miss a layup.
Everybody in the gym drops and drop and do 10
pushups. Yeah. So I do 10 pushups and I look
up and Darren's still doing fucking pushups.
And I look back at him. I was like, why did that
take you so long? He's like, I did 16. I got
six push -ups stronger than you today. I was
like, oh, my God. Like, you've got to be kidding
me. You won't stop. No. I was like, bullshit.
So then all of a sudden it was like, coach would
be like, all right, Miss Layup, everybody do
10 push -ups. Him and I would literally just
be cranking out push -ups, staring at each other
until the coach was like. You morons, like, what
are you doing? Everyone thought you were having
some weird romantic thing going on. Yeah, they
said they're like, oh, your boyfriend's not here.
I'm just like, oh, Darren, I know he's sick today.
But it was just like, he came over. He's like,
will you guys stop? And I was like, you tell
him to stop first. And we're just still going.
We pop up. And then eventually, then it was like
other people on the team started catching on.
And then all of a sudden, like, Dom, Willie,
all these guys started doing it where it was
just like. coach is like do 10 push -ups and
we're all just like doing eventually he had to
stop he's like all right 10 seconds of push -ups
because you guys are idiots and you won't stop
doing but we have shit to do so as we pop up
and everybody just say how many they got um and
then at the end of the day we'd be like getting
uh darren would like keep count of how many push
-ups he did versus everybody else so then everybody
else is like you know drying off getting changed
and he's just like no Dama won today he did seven
more push -ups than everyone so he'd like drop
down and do like eight push -ups real quick he's
like I'll be damned if anybody's gonna get stronger
than me today and then it but like just that
insane level of competitiveness that and just
pure like we it was like when two people that
both refused to be like I'll never let anyone
outwork me and he was the same way so you put
us living together for a year and it was just
It really just unlocked something where it was
like, dude, we had 6 a .m. yoga, 7 a .m. Pilates,
went straight to the weight room until 10, went
home, ate, came back, went to track conditioning,
then went to practice. Then the second practice
was done. We would go find another gym to go
work out at. And then the second we were done
with that, we would go to my uncle's house for
a pool workout. So we were legitimately working
out for like 13 hours a day. Dude, it's been
like two months. Can we like take a day off?
He was like, you are so soft. It was just like
this, you know. Constant devil on your shoulder.
Yes. It was like, and then one day we were like,
all right, all right, all right. It's been like
90 days. Let's take the day off. And then it
hit, like, noon. And when you put guys like that
that were working out, like, 13 hours a day for
90 straight days, it's, like, noon. We're, like,
all right, fuck this. And it's, like, we just
went straight to the gym. I was, like, let's
just do a light workout today. But it's, you
know, I owe so much to him because he just unlocked
that completely. Like, it doesn't matter what's
hurting. We're all hurt. It doesn't matter what's
going on. And that's where when we were joking
earlier, right before we started, it's like,
oh, something's going on. You're depressed. You
have anxiety. Work harder. It's, oh, anything
happens. It's like nothing can't be solved with
hard work. It's like hard work is the trump card
that beats everything. Yeah. The harder I work,
the luckier I get. It feels weird. Yeah. How
does that happen? It's crazy. Yeah. I find that
a lot of. entrepreneurs, high performers, people
who are striving for a lot, a lot of times have
a chip on their shoulder from something they
got like, do they just have a memory of something
happening to them that made them just want to
work harder than everyone else? Did you ever
have a moment like that? For sure, for sure.
I think there was an element in my upbringing,
like, there started to be a feeling of, like,
not being good enough. Yeah. It was like, you
know, I got to somehow, someway earn parental
approval kind of thing. So I always had that
little bit of a chip. Then getting cut from the
basketball team. Then, you know, coming back
from surgery. Then meeting Darren. And I was
like, I was already a hard worker. Then just
being ratcheted up to just completely different
levels. I think there was that chip. And then...
And then getting turned down by 10 different
mortgage companies, begging for a job out of
college. It was hard, man. I mean, you've experienced
it. Never mind. Hell no, you didn't experience
it. I got a job out of college. You got it right
out of college. You had your job lined up. You
didn't go through that, man, where it's like,
man, interviewing sucks. I don't know how many
job applications I filled out, interviews I went
on. I wore the same suit every single time, and
I never washed it. That definitely had no impact
on me not getting hired. That's disgusting. You
wear an undershirt. Like, well, come on. It's
fine. But, dude, you're 23 years old. That's
why you work for yourself. Yeah, exactly. But
it was just that, you know, I had no money for
dry cleaning. Crazy. It's expensive. You could
either go to get your clothes, your suit dry
cleaned, or you can go to Chipotle. So it's,
you know, that's where I just spent so much time,
where it was just. getting just denied left and
right. And then it's, you know, my startup going
bust, um, that sucked, but you know, it just,
you learned a lot. I got to, you know, talk high
level with a lot of really, really smart people
and, um, just open me to new experiences and
that kind of thing. And just really kind of test
the boundaries of like what you can actually
do if you put your mind to stuff and actually
learn how to do things. And it's like, just get
out of your comfort zone. So it's, um, And then
for sure, everything that happened, me having
a fallout with my mentor and that chip that got
put on my shoulder, I mean, that'll never go
away. Between that, I already have my work ethic,
and then you add that in, it's over. There's
nobody in this country that I would not stack
my minutes up against. you know you can come
shadow me for a day you can come work out of
here anytime you want and it's like a i don't
it's funny like dj connor they all know like
if i call them and they don't answer they can
call me back like four seconds later and i'm
not answering because i'm already on the next
call yeah they're like damn it i miss him now
i gotta wait 45 minutes until he's off that call
and maybe i catch him again yeah but it's like
i am just like i there is no wasted minutes yeah
because i learned it's like that you know the
pursuit of happiness where he's just like i learned
if i don't have the action of hanging up the
receiver if i just go straight to the next phone
call i can get like 12 more phone calls in a
day it's like that's the kind of mindset where
it's like i've just been working at that clip
with you know it doesn't matter if i'm sick it
doesn't matter like i've had covet i had hand
foot mouth disease uh which is like Only babies
should get hand -foot -mouth disease unless,
like, an adult is under extreme stress and their
immune system is at, like, an all -time, like,
absurdly low level. Then they could be susceptible
to it. I got hand -foot -mouth disease and was
still just cranking away. I was like, all right,
I can't go anywhere, so I guess I'm working from
home because it's crazy contagious. But it was
just that, you know, there's just nothing that's
going to stop me or slow me down. It's like a
stack my minutes up against anyone, and that's
where it really just... It compounds over time.
That's what Kobe always talked about that. He
was like, you know, you might be better than
me right now, but with me continuing to work
that much harder, he's like, eventually if you're
here and I'm here, but I'm working that much
harder, eventually I'll catch up and then I'm
not going to stop. And eventually I'll just surpass
you. It's just, that's the mindset, man. Yeah.
Yeah. After everything we've talked about, do
you have any advice for, for young people going
to college? looking for jobs, maybe they want
to start their own business. What advice would
you give to those people? Man, so much. The biggest
one is like people forget to budget. I mean,
when you're starting a business, I've seen it
happen way too many times, even in this industry
where it's like. people don't understand how
to budget. Um, so it's being very, very conscious
of that and understand your expenses, understand
your cashflow, have a base level of accounting
knowledge. Um, if you're really going to go into
the entrepreneurship route, because like, I mean,
even every, all the equipment you bought in here,
it's expensive. Like it adds up very quickly.
Um, and you gotta understand like the, the, how
long it's going to take you to get your money
back. So it's, um, you know, being able to stay
conscious of that and then, you know, There's
nobody on this planet that can't teach you one
thing. So it's go into everything with an open
mind where it's a, you know, even if you don't
love that subject, even if you don't love that
professor, it's like, they'd still do no more
than you on that one subject. Because that's
the one thing I really learned. I'm like, you
know, I used to judge like, you know, a teacher,
you know, I had an ego in like high school and
I was like, I'm so much smarter than this teacher.
I'm like, okay, but that teacher is smarter than
me on that one subject guaranteed. Like, but
I didn't see that in the time. So it's understand
that kind of concept on it and just don't be
afraid to take risks. I see way too many people
taking that, you know, base level entry, safe,
cushy job. It's, it's almost, it just feels like
a trap in today's world where I'm like, just
go bet on yourself and just go find a skill,
bet on it. just go obsess over one thing and
put your damn blinders on and don't try and do
11 things. It's go find one thing that you're
passionate about and go all in on it. It's that
good old Ron Swanson quote of don't half -ass
two things, whole -ass one thing. It's so funny
and simple, but it's true. It's just when you
put that whole focus and attention into one thing,
it's... At least give it that full effort. At
least give it six months, a year, something like
that. And then if you give it six months and
you're at 90 episodes on your podcast and you
have four people watching it, okay, maybe the
podcast sucked. If all of a sudden it's the,
holy crap, I'm battling Joe Rogan, shit, man,
congratulations. You might be on to something.
I'd love to be a repeat guest. But it's that,
take that chance. If you're passionate about
it and you enjoy this, go bet on it and go hard.
Go learn how to promote this. Go learn how to
push it out. I can actually introduce you to
some marketing people that are coming to mind.
That'd be great. But it's, you know, go all in
on what you're passionate about and just bet
on yourself, but stay conscious of the budget.
Yep. Yep. A hundred percent. No, I think even
with this, it's, it's, I guess it's, it's, it's
hard to, to put in all this work into something
without seeing. any type of return right like
and that's the scary part when it comes to taking
risks is oh i could just do this for a year and
nobody ever listens to it yep and like sure maybe
down the line three years down the line people
are listening to it but at this point in time
i don't know what the future looks like right
so i have to put in all the upfront work the
money all of those things without having any
promise of anything in the future yep yeah well
i mean it's the same thing with anything right
like I go to the gym tomorrow and I don't see
any results. Should I quit? Yep. Everybody's
just so quick to quit. You've got to give it
the time. You've got to let it succeed. I firmly
believe if any human gives 100 % effort to one
task, they can be successful in it. They just
fail too quickly or they give up too quickly.
It's just... And they just don't have that work
ethic to obsess over it and be like, there's
nothing you're going to do that's going to stop
me from being the number one podcaster in the
world. You have that mindset going into it, and
you obsess over it. You learn, how do I get my
content out there? How do I grow this channel?
How do I get more guests? How do I draft off
them? You know, all of a sudden you start getting
some people on the podcast that you can draft
off of their audience. That's how you truly grow
in my mind. Yep. You know, so it's, you know,
you interviewing me. Damn, bro, I don't really
have that big of a following. You know, I appreciate
you. You know, it's an honor to be on it. But
it's the, you know, going and finding those people
that you can really grow with. Yep. Yep. So it's,
I mean, for you, what's the next, what is your
plan with this podcast? What are the goals? I
mean. Right now, it's just stick at it for a
year. Do as many episodes as I can during that
time and just get really good at podcasting because
I can't expect to be an overnight success without
first just acquiring the skill, get better at
interviewing, get better at drafting the questions,
get better at finding better guests. All of these
things are higher profile guests. All of those
things don't just... come right like i have to
work at that so i guess that's the goal in the
midterm and the long term it's yeah become one
of the top podcasts on spotify youtube apple
podcast all the platforms like top 100 if not
top 10 and so yeah i think a lot of it just comes
down to having vision having knowing that if
i take it seriously if i treat it professionally
that i will get there the biggest thing man uh
And I guarantee, I bet this accelerates it like
no other. Every single time you end a podcast,
you got to do this for me. I'd say even do it
on camera. Ask them, who is somebody that you
know? Who would be the best person in your contact
list that I should interview? Who has the biggest
audience that you have? Who do you think would
be the coolest person you know that I could bring
on the podcast? It'll grow like crazy. I bet
you skipped so many stops. Yeah, definitely.
I mean, I've got some pretty good, decently high
-profile guests in the pipeline through referrals.
There you go. So that's actually been, like I
said, the most valuable piece of advice that
you gave me was the referral. Just during that
same day after the interview, who do you know
that would be on the podcast? Put them on the
spot. Do it live. I'll do it live. Do it live
and put them on. It's amazing the names that
will come out, I guarantee it, because especially
it's a funny thing where it's like even me thinking
myself, it starts going through. I'm like, ooh,
I could potentially drop this person's name.
And I'm like, ah, wait, I don't know if they
would actually be willing to do that. But you're
going to get people to name drop. People are
like, wait, how do you know that person? And
it's like, I guarantee it'll start spiraling
out. because you know i have some crazy people
in my contacts list but then i'm like you know
i haven't talked to them in 10 years so you're
probably not going to be able to get in front
of them but it's the you know there there's other
people like when you talk about jaden when you
talk about dj like you talk about how it seems
like everybody's like one or two steps removed
i remember when we talked about your startup
and it was like a i was like You know you're
connected to so many famous musicians, right?
Yep. You're like two levels away at all times
from just ridiculous levels of talent. Yep. So
it's the same thing in this where it's just like,
just go ask. Yep. But put their ass on the spot.
Yep. That's a good tip. I know. Yeah. But as
we close up the podcast, we have a tradition
on the podcast. It's called Carrots and Sticks.
Every time that someone comes on to the podcast,
the last question we ask them is to... What is
something within the next two weeks that you
could do to live more courageously? And obviously
we make it specific, achievable, all the smart
goals type of thing. But the ethos behind it
is that even people who are really successful,
who are high performers, really do struggle with
fear, with limiting beliefs, with all these different
things that come in. And everybody's got something.
So we always ask the guests to think of a challenge
for themselves. God, that's the funniest thing.
Maybe this is the only time where it's like I'll
let my ego show, but I'm like, dude, I don't
have any limiting beliefs. I swear to the depths
of my soul, I believe everything is possible.
I truly believe I am going to buy the Denver
Nuggets. Cronky might not sell it, so I might
buy the Hornets, like I said, but I will buy
an NBA team in my life. I firmly believe that.
And it's a fear. It's a funny thing that it's
like, you know, from my time in Cerritos and
Long Beach and all my teammates from Compton,
they taught me that phrase of, you know, I fear
God. And it's I fear God and God only. So it's,
you know, you live that life with no limiting
beliefs, no fear. The thing I know I can really
do better, and it's something that, you know.
And what's really kind of happened to us, and
I hope you see the same level of success. Like
our biggest fear now, I guess if we have one,
is being crushed by too much success, by growing
too fast. Because you can absolutely lose by
growing too fast. So it's the biggest thing that
we always constantly push off is that pipeline
management, that data management of like. throwing
everybody in that CRM. We're really, really good
with that for our clients, but as far as everyone
that we're in talks with, partnering with, it's
like, how do you keep all these straight when
everybody's referring it out and you just have
so many referrals? Because we keep asking for
referrals. It's the craziest thing. When somebody
gives you a referral, they are then 200 % or
300 % more likely to give you a second. So it's
all of a sudden like people that we asked for
one referral have come back and given us a second,
a third, a fourth, a fifth. But we've put out
that spider web and it's just going in so many
different directions. So it's the biggest thing
I'd say is like, you know, for us, that SMART
goal is to be able to, you know, get everything
hyper organized. And we were just talking about
having like a leadership summit for the. the
team and just kind of bring them in and being
like, guys, we got to keep them all straight.
It's awesome that we're growing as fast as we
are, but if we don't keep every single one of
these straight and dialed in, it's like, cool.
We talked to 50 people, but we only closed one
or two because we just try to do it all too fast,
too quickly. So it's, it's, it is that beautiful
thing of being, you know, crushed by success,
but limiting beliefs. Come on. Yeah. It's, you
know, that it's. There's no point in having any
limiting beliefs or fear. Do you feel like you
still have limiting beliefs? Oh, definitely.
Really? Yeah. Like what? I mean, I have them
all the time. I'm probably the meanest person
to myself than other than other. Like other people
aren't mean to me. I'm more mean to myself than
anyone else. Like I wouldn't call them limiting
beliefs, but it's more like just like an ambient.
fear of random things and it comes up sometimes
it's like like you were talking about the feeling
of not being good enough right and just like
pushing forward on something i'll see some success
and it's like oh i haven't done enough like and
it detracts from my life and that mentally i
just am never happy with myself oh man you can't
be happy with stuff just work harder no i know
but i work harder and i still don't i achieve
the goal and then I still don't feel happy. Exactly.
But then you just work harder even more. It's
and that's the vicious circle that, you know,
I hope to rub off on you. But then it is it's
hard. Like I know people have told me they're
like, you know, that sounds exhausting. That
sounds horrible that you're never fulfilled.
You're never happy. And I'm like, you know, it's
it's a real battle that it's just the, you know,
when you have that level of just pure, no fear
and no limiting beliefs, it is like it is a crazy
thing that I'll say, like. that means you're
never happy. That means you're never satisfied.
That means you never celebrate the moment. And
I know those are things I really struggle with
because, because I don't have those. So it's
like, even when we hit an achievement, I'm like,
that was coming. Yep. Like that's a certainty.
So then it's just like the constant feeling like
you said, okay, you win a championship. I want
to win. Okay. Who won the most? I want to win
more. Yeah. You know, what's the high, we found
out who the, you know, it's end credit union.
Who's the. highest producing lender in the state
of Colorado. Year to date, they're like 1 .3
billion. I'm like, give me two years. Give me
two years, I'll beat the crap out of them. And
then it's a, okay, two years from now, I'll be
the largest in Colorado. Give me four years,
I'll be the largest in the country. And that's
where you just have that mindset where you're
like, I'm going to do it. It's a fact. Because
I know I'll work. harder than anyone and more
efficiently what happens when you combine that
work harder and work smarter so it's when you
constantly hit that level and that's where i'm
like i truly believe i'm just a guy that i just
i work harder than you yep like that's what it
all boils down to is just that so many people
are just afraid of putting in the work yeah and
you can't get away from it nope nope oh yeah
i guess the final closing thoughts is you talked
about suffering from success what is what would
that next two weeks look like to to bring that
in and not suffer from too much success or get
crushed by it absolutely um getting that uh we
use pipe drive for our crm so have our pipe drive
100 dialed in with Every single person we have
talked to, every realtor, every potential joint
venture, every potential affiliated partnership,
every potential loan officer that we've talked
to, go through our leadership summit and build
out that entire list of everyone that we know,
flush it out, and build that strategic plan.
It's the same thing. I know we talked about it
a little bit, but you still have to go in with
a plan. I know that is something that... you
know we're not perfect at that's somewhere where
you can for sure improve because you know there's
some times where it does feel like you know we're
just going in there and it's like cool i'm just
going to work out you know at a thousand percent
intensity but it's the if there's no true defined
plan behind it you're not accomplishing as much
as you can so it's you know we do need to take
this and it's so hard to take that step back
to like slow down to speed up yeah so it's that
that's what i would say is like truly get all
that a hundred percent dialed in so that we can
but then you know you're asking me to slow down
yeah it's hard to slow down yeah but you can
accelerate faster if you slow down a little bit
i hear you yeah but i appreciate that who do
you know that would want to come on the podcast
largest following yeah jayden hansen for sure
um because he has he has i mean he's been uh
amazing for us and it's like you know jayden
has no ownership in three point yep he doesn't
get paid anything, but he has opened up so many
doors for us because he sees us and he sees our
vision and he believes in us. Um, so he's been
unbelievable and the doors that he's opened for
us and truly one of my best friends now, um,
DJ, um, you gotta have DJ on. Um, he's just amazing.
Uh, you know, I have such a man crush on him.
It's my work husband, um, that it's, you know,
that's my partner for life. Um, and he truly
is, um, you know, he has a lot of connections
too, but he was also just, he's such a wealth
of knowledge. Um, honestly, uh, Connor would
be a really good one too. You can go through
a lot of the three point family where it's like,
you know, Connor, uh, he got promoted like something
ridiculous, like eight times in six years at
Comcast. It's crazy. Um, like built out revenue
models for us that, you know, I think he single
handedly changed the way the Comcast does some
analytics and reporting when he was like 24 years
old. Yeah. Like I said, kid, he's 29. He's an
absolute genius, and we love him to death. And
then when I think of people kind of outside of
this industry, you know, next time you're in
California, I can introduce you to Darren, and
you can hear his version of, you know, what it
was like going through it. And a lot of those,
you know, again, it's just continuing to open
doors, open doors, open doors. And then if you
want to get into, and it depends, like. When
you think of your podcast guest, is it truly
just interesting people? What's your kind of
target of who do you want to talk to? There's
no necessarily niche of person. We talk to entrepreneurs.
We talk to philosophers. We talk to researchers.
Talk to anyone who I think is interesting, has
value to share to the target audience, and is
also on board with the values and the mission
of the podcast. Okay. No, there's quite a few
people I can introduce you to. And again, you've
just got to keep it going. I've always been the
guy that knows the guy. So I can introduce you
to the guy, and they know the guy. So it would
be cool to see what doors they can open. I can
get you in front of a lot of people that know
a lot of people. I just don't know them. They're
close, though. They're close. Second level, baby.
Cool. Well, thank you for coming on, Mitchell.
This was a great time. This was awesome.