WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.140 Hello friends, welcome back to another episode 00:00:02.140 --> 00:00:05.980 of the C &S Podcast. Our guest today is Brian 00:00:05.980 --> 00:00:09.640 Kaplan. He is an economist, a New York Times 00:00:09.640 --> 00:00:13.099 bestseller, and a professor of economics at... 00:00:13.259 --> 00:00:15.619 george mason university today we will discuss 00:00:15.619 --> 00:00:19.140 how unfair regulations made housing prices sky 00:00:19.140 --> 00:00:21.640 high why young people are disproportionately 00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:25.699 affected by housing what can be done on a personal 00:00:25.699 --> 00:00:28.980 level about expensive housing why voters are 00:00:28.980 --> 00:00:32.520 so hesitant to deregulate housing the real reasons 00:00:32.520 --> 00:00:36.740 why deregulation can fix the housing crisis and 00:00:36.740 --> 00:00:39.420 much more if you are enjoying this show and you 00:00:39.420 --> 00:00:41.740 would like to show your support the best way 00:00:41.740 --> 00:00:44.039 you can do that is by sharing this episode with 00:00:44.039 --> 00:00:45.960 someone who you think would enjoy it. Whether 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:48.659 it be a friend, a family member, or a coworker, 00:00:48.679 --> 00:00:51.380 this show only grows from word of mouth referrals 00:00:51.380 --> 00:00:54.340 like these, and so I appreciate each and every 00:00:54.340 --> 00:00:56.840 one of you. Thank you for listening to the show, 00:00:56.859 --> 00:01:09.819 and enjoy the episode. Brian Kaplan, welcome 00:01:09.819 --> 00:01:13.250 to the show. Fantastic to be here, David. We're 00:01:13.250 --> 00:01:15.390 here to talk about your new book, Build Baby 00:01:15.390 --> 00:01:18.150 Build, which is all about housing regulation. 00:01:19.109 --> 00:01:21.689 Why is housing regulation such a big failure? 00:01:23.109 --> 00:01:26.530 Hmm. So that's the question of what's causing 00:01:26.530 --> 00:01:28.689 it rather than how do we know that it's causing 00:01:28.689 --> 00:01:31.890 harm or what do you have in mind? Um, more so 00:01:31.890 --> 00:01:33.670 like, well, how do we know it's causing harm? 00:01:33.709 --> 00:01:37.150 So break into housing regulation. Okay. So we 00:01:37.150 --> 00:01:40.150 can start with, we've seen this very large rise 00:01:40.150 --> 00:01:43.189 in housing prices, especially in desirable areas, 00:01:43.230 --> 00:01:45.750 much higher than you would expect from inflation. 00:01:46.170 --> 00:01:49.989 And then there is the question of why we see 00:01:49.989 --> 00:01:52.430 that the regulation is generally very strict. 00:01:52.750 --> 00:01:57.519 And then at least that is a plausible. But as 00:01:57.519 --> 00:01:59.739 to how we actually should be really confident 00:01:59.739 --> 00:02:02.719 here, most of the evidence comes down to this, 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:06.920 saying, look, in a free market, if prices rise 00:02:06.920 --> 00:02:09.759 above the physical cost of production, then people 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:11.840 would build more until prices fell back down 00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:14.120 to the physical cost of production. Yet if we 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:17.719 go and get a very good measure of, first of all, 00:02:17.740 --> 00:02:20.719 the raw value of land without any permission 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:23.500 attached, combined with physical structure costs, 00:02:24.090 --> 00:02:26.889 Prices are permanently way above that, and the 00:02:26.889 --> 00:02:28.650 regulation is really the only plausible story 00:02:28.650 --> 00:02:32.129 about how those prices could be kept that high. 00:02:32.650 --> 00:02:35.430 Because otherwise, basically, a building would 00:02:35.430 --> 00:02:38.669 be like having a printing press, just a license 00:02:38.669 --> 00:02:41.469 to print money. So that's what it really comes 00:02:41.469 --> 00:02:43.949 down to. We can just see that land that is pretty 00:02:43.949 --> 00:02:46.330 much worthless without a piece of paper allowing 00:02:46.330 --> 00:02:48.729 you to build, and those pieces of paper are hard 00:02:48.729 --> 00:02:50.770 to get. You get the piece of paper, and suddenly 00:02:50.770 --> 00:02:54.099 the land can be worth $100 million. is like that 00:02:54.099 --> 00:02:56.840 yeah so it's a it's a bit of artificial scarcity 00:02:56.840 --> 00:02:59.300 that's going on here you're not just a bit david 00:02:59.300 --> 00:03:02.599 it's an incredible amount of artificial scarcity 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:04.939 there's something it really like the system really 00:03:04.939 --> 00:03:07.800 is it's like charging for air we need the air 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:09.819 very badly there's plenty of air for everyone 00:03:09.819 --> 00:03:11.719 but the government will not allow you to breathe 00:03:11.719 --> 00:03:15.620 without a breathing permit yeah yeah so um there's 00:03:15.620 --> 00:03:18.219 so we're talking about housing regulation and 00:03:18.219 --> 00:03:19.780 a lot of people think that housing regulation 00:03:19.780 --> 00:03:23.930 makes things better So I can regulate my single 00:03:23.930 --> 00:03:26.569 family area. It's quieter. There's less crime. 00:03:26.810 --> 00:03:30.389 Like I'm able to get through traffic easier. 00:03:30.430 --> 00:03:33.930 It's not as populated. What about these benefits 00:03:33.930 --> 00:03:37.310 that people think are going on? Why are we going 00:03:37.310 --> 00:03:40.750 to like deregulate and lose those things? Right. 00:03:40.870 --> 00:03:43.430 So this is really the heart of any thoughtful 00:03:43.430 --> 00:03:47.169 approach to this question. First point is obviously 00:03:47.169 --> 00:03:50.689 when you let a lot more people bill, then normally 00:03:50.689 --> 00:03:53.710 parking and traffic and noise do get worse. So 00:03:53.710 --> 00:03:55.530 it's like, all right, so then what's the mistake? 00:03:55.849 --> 00:03:58.770 Well, there's two kinds of mistakes. So here 00:03:58.770 --> 00:04:02.169 is the one that is really obvious. There is another 00:04:02.169 --> 00:04:05.189 much cheaper, much more humane way of handling 00:04:05.189 --> 00:04:08.270 these complaints, which is to charge people for 00:04:08.270 --> 00:04:10.729 driving during peak times, to charge people for 00:04:10.729 --> 00:04:13.969 parking during busy times, and so on. We have 00:04:13.969 --> 00:04:16.149 the technology. It's totally possible to do this. 00:04:16.250 --> 00:04:18.810 And it's much better to make driving more expensive 00:04:18.810 --> 00:04:22.930 than to make housing more expensive. If the traffic 00:04:22.930 --> 00:04:26.189 is the problem, raise the price of causing traffic. 00:04:26.310 --> 00:04:29.430 Don't go and raise the price of housing, which 00:04:29.430 --> 00:04:32.370 is only partly related. And in fact, when you 00:04:32.370 --> 00:04:34.290 think about it more, it's like, well, one of 00:04:34.290 --> 00:04:36.329 the main responses to high housing prices is 00:04:36.329 --> 00:04:39.750 to live further away, which causes more traffic. 00:04:40.699 --> 00:04:43.420 It's a crazy system where a lot of what's happening 00:04:43.420 --> 00:04:45.040 is people are just exporting the traffic problem, 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:48.160 whereas charging really does solve the problem. 00:04:48.459 --> 00:04:50.779 And yet we have this atavistic notion, oh, no, 00:04:50.899 --> 00:04:53.040 driving should be free, parking should be free. 00:04:53.139 --> 00:04:55.899 Well, that really helps us a lot when we have 00:04:55.899 --> 00:04:59.120 something that is free and therefore barely usable. 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:02.759 So that's part of it. Now, the deeper answer. 00:05:03.149 --> 00:05:06.430 Deeper answer is that even if we don't go and 00:05:06.430 --> 00:05:08.810 have any way of improving the traffic and parking 00:05:08.810 --> 00:05:12.310 noise situations, we still have very strong evidence 00:05:12.310 --> 00:05:17.550 that on balance, more people lead to a higher 00:05:17.550 --> 00:05:19.610 standard of living according to most people. 00:05:19.870 --> 00:05:23.490 How do we know this? Because if you live in an 00:05:23.490 --> 00:05:26.189 area that is densely populated, you've got all 00:05:26.189 --> 00:05:28.410 these problems that you mentioned. Hardly any 00:05:28.410 --> 00:05:32.009 government will use. peak load pricing for parking 00:05:32.009 --> 00:05:35.990 traffic and so on. But here's the crazy thing. 00:05:36.129 --> 00:05:38.529 In areas where they have horrible parking and 00:05:38.529 --> 00:05:41.290 driving noise problems, they normally also still 00:05:41.290 --> 00:05:44.329 have sky -high property values. Why do people 00:05:44.329 --> 00:05:46.670 pay so much money to have such horrible problems? 00:05:47.449 --> 00:05:50.509 The answer is there must be massive offsetting 00:05:50.509 --> 00:05:53.230 benefits of living near other people, benefits 00:05:53.230 --> 00:05:56.370 that are so great that they outweigh all the 00:05:56.370 --> 00:05:59.310 problems and a lot more because people pay all 00:05:59.310 --> 00:06:01.569 this extra money. And if you think about it a 00:06:01.569 --> 00:06:03.550 little bit more, you can realize, oh yeah, of 00:06:03.550 --> 00:06:06.189 course. You can get rid of all parking, traffic, 00:06:06.290 --> 00:06:07.730 and noise problems by moving to the middle of 00:06:07.730 --> 00:06:10.720 nowhere in America. But hardly anybody wants 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:13.259 to do that. Why not? Because you lose all the 00:06:13.259 --> 00:06:14.800 good things that come from living around other 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:18.000 people. You lose social opportunities. You lose 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:20.699 job opportunities, shopping opportunities, cultural 00:06:20.699 --> 00:06:23.920 opportunities. This is not just my opinion. It 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:28.360 is the opinion of the market that consumers are 00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:30.600 willing to pay a large premium to get a package 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:33.300 of all good things humans bring and all bad things 00:06:33.300 --> 00:06:36.319 together. That package fused together, people 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:39.540 pay a massive premium for. And what this means 00:06:39.540 --> 00:06:42.060 in economic terms is that governments are trying 00:06:42.060 --> 00:06:46.720 to stop something that has big positive externalities. 00:06:47.860 --> 00:06:50.759 So that's the deep story. So are people just 00:06:50.759 --> 00:06:53.160 bad at evaluating these things? Like most people 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:56.420 I talk to will be like, yeah, they won't mention 00:06:56.420 --> 00:06:59.100 any of those benefits of I'm living in New York 00:06:59.100 --> 00:07:01.220 City. I have more opportunity, more people, more 00:07:01.220 --> 00:07:04.600 everything else that comes with that. Are there 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:06.870 people just bad at it? Well, the answer is that 00:07:06.870 --> 00:07:09.050 as consumers, they're great. And that's why there's 00:07:09.050 --> 00:07:11.670 a big premium that people are paying. So as consumers, 00:07:11.769 --> 00:07:14.670 people demonstrate, actions speak louder than 00:07:14.670 --> 00:07:16.810 words, that they actually prefer the high -density 00:07:16.810 --> 00:07:19.670 package to the low -density package. But as voters, 00:07:19.910 --> 00:07:22.550 they are not using that knowledge. Instead, they 00:07:22.550 --> 00:07:26.250 are guided by simple -minded slogans of, I don't 00:07:26.250 --> 00:07:27.970 want any more traffic. I don't want any more 00:07:27.970 --> 00:07:33.829 parking. This is how psychologically normal people 00:07:33.829 --> 00:07:37.850 are. Their political thinking is at a level that 00:07:37.850 --> 00:07:40.310 makes one almost embarrassed to be part of the 00:07:40.310 --> 00:07:42.629 human race, but that's the way politics works. 00:07:42.870 --> 00:07:47.209 It brings out the worst in people, the most malevolence, 00:07:47.290 --> 00:07:53.069 the folly, the stupidity, the simple -mindedness. 00:07:53.110 --> 00:07:56.129 This is what is reflected in politics. If you 00:07:56.129 --> 00:07:58.490 go to another country during an election, it's 00:07:58.490 --> 00:08:00.310 hard not to think what a bunch of morons these 00:08:00.310 --> 00:08:02.639 are. But then, of course, in my country, the 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:04.879 politics are thoughtful, or at least my side 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:07.139 is thoughtful. At least in my own opinion. Like, 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:11.120 aren't they embarrassed to be Hungarians? I was 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:12.740 in Hungary during their election. It's like, 00:08:12.819 --> 00:08:16.420 look at these posters. Like, if you're not part 00:08:16.420 --> 00:08:18.560 of the culture, then you see it clearly. And 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:20.639 to see that people are operating at their lowest 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:26.189 possible level. So ugly. Just so... checked out 00:08:26.189 --> 00:08:30.129 the brains turned off just full emotion just 00:08:30.129 --> 00:08:33.769 a vomit a verbiage but in your own country normally 00:08:33.769 --> 00:08:35.590 you're attached to a side it's like well at least 00:08:35.590 --> 00:08:38.870 my own side isn't bad like they're all terrible 00:08:38.870 --> 00:08:42.330 look it is like politically even if i agree with 00:08:42.330 --> 00:08:45.370 someone like if i listen to a yimby like you 00:08:45.370 --> 00:08:47.450 said like the conclusion's good but the arguments 00:08:47.450 --> 00:08:49.929 are usually not very good and i'm like you're 00:08:49.929 --> 00:08:52.169 just saying a bunch of false things and i don't 00:08:52.169 --> 00:08:55.970 like like just speak strict truth strict truth 00:08:55.970 --> 00:08:58.450 only it's like well then we can't win damn it 00:08:58.450 --> 00:09:03.250 yeah it's always like you listen to someone else's 00:09:03.250 --> 00:09:04.970 argument even within your own country and you're 00:09:04.970 --> 00:09:07.419 like god Everyone's opinion sucks, but of course 00:09:07.419 --> 00:09:10.120 mine is like amazingly thought out and rational, 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:12.840 right? Okay. So I'm someone, I think that there 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:15.100 are some subcultures like the rationalist community 00:09:15.100 --> 00:09:17.840 where it is much easier to have a reasonable 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:20.799 conversation. Economics is another one. We've 00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:23.320 got ways of disciplining our thinking and ruling 00:09:23.320 --> 00:09:26.299 out some of the worst kinds of arguments, but 00:09:26.299 --> 00:09:30.080 in a normal public forum, it's not just anything 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:33.080 goes like anything except reason goes. Yeah. 00:09:33.100 --> 00:09:36.190 Yeah. Is there any reason people – or I guess 00:09:36.190 --> 00:09:38.309 you would think that people are voting in their 00:09:38.309 --> 00:09:41.190 self -interest when it comes to election time. 00:09:41.370 --> 00:09:43.190 But in the book, you mentioned that they really 00:09:43.190 --> 00:09:45.850 aren't voting in that direction. Why is that 00:09:45.850 --> 00:09:47.809 happening? That's right. So my book, The Myth 00:09:47.809 --> 00:09:49.570 of the Rational Voter, it's my first book, goes 00:09:49.570 --> 00:09:51.769 into this in a lot of detail. Here's the key 00:09:51.769 --> 00:09:54.450 thing to understand. If you go shopping and you 00:09:54.450 --> 00:09:56.509 buy a bunch of junk that you don't want and you 00:09:56.509 --> 00:09:59.330 pay for it, you go to the store and you are worse 00:09:59.330 --> 00:10:02.769 off. Yeah. And this is a reason to not do that 00:10:02.769 --> 00:10:05.070 in the first place. And if you ever do buy stuff 00:10:05.070 --> 00:10:06.730 that it turns out you don't like, don't buy it 00:10:06.730 --> 00:10:10.870 again. You are the person that bears the consequences 00:10:10.870 --> 00:10:13.049 of bad decisions. You are the person that benefits 00:10:13.049 --> 00:10:16.490 from learning from your own folly. Does this 00:10:16.490 --> 00:10:18.570 mean that nobody ever makes a bad decision, Marcus? 00:10:18.649 --> 00:10:21.149 Of course not. But it does mean that it has basic 00:10:21.149 --> 00:10:25.210 functionality. On the other hand, when people 00:10:25.210 --> 00:10:28.350 vote, it's not like that. If you vote for really 00:10:28.350 --> 00:10:31.049 terrible stuff, what happens? The same thing 00:10:31.049 --> 00:10:32.389 that was going to happen anyway, because you're 00:10:32.389 --> 00:10:35.169 just one tiny person. What is your incentive 00:10:35.169 --> 00:10:37.870 to learn if something passes that you wanted 00:10:37.870 --> 00:10:40.429 and it devastates your country? Well, it's not 00:10:40.429 --> 00:10:42.250 like there's anything you personally can do. 00:10:42.370 --> 00:10:44.029 If you had voted differently, nothing would have 00:10:44.029 --> 00:10:45.409 changed. If you vote differently, the future, 00:10:45.490 --> 00:10:47.330 nothing will change. Because again, you're just 00:10:47.330 --> 00:10:51.899 one person. Everybody in this country who said 00:10:51.899 --> 00:10:53.639 that Trump would crash the stock market, there 00:10:53.639 --> 00:10:55.700 weren't that many, but everybody said he crashed 00:10:55.700 --> 00:10:57.779 the stock market, lived through the same stock 00:10:57.779 --> 00:10:59.940 market crash as everybody who said, thought things 00:10:59.940 --> 00:11:03.220 would be fine. It really did. This is a case 00:11:03.220 --> 00:11:05.559 where, interestingly, of course, you did have 00:11:05.559 --> 00:11:07.659 the option of shorting the stock market. And 00:11:07.659 --> 00:11:11.799 if you acted on your vision of doom, then you 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:15.480 are now fabulously rich. If you know anyone that 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:18.490 did this, my congratulations to them. On the 00:11:18.490 --> 00:11:20.649 other hand, anybody who claims they foresaw it 00:11:20.649 --> 00:11:22.909 but was not short in the market, you didn't foresee 00:11:22.909 --> 00:11:25.370 anything. You were just being hyper and got lucky. 00:11:25.710 --> 00:11:28.190 Yep, yep. And hindsight is 20 -20, of course. 00:11:29.049 --> 00:11:32.590 So let's say what you're telling us is true, 00:11:32.669 --> 00:11:36.389 that if we build more housing, we can actually 00:11:36.389 --> 00:11:39.549 price out roads and parking and make those two 00:11:39.549 --> 00:11:43.250 problems go away. What are just people misunderstanding 00:11:43.250 --> 00:11:45.610 about this whole housing situation that would 00:11:45.610 --> 00:11:48.259 actually convince them? to vote more rationally. 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.200 I mean, honestly, the biggest misunderstanding 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:55.320 is denying that building a lot more housing would 00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:59.179 bring prices down a lot. There is actual research 00:11:59.179 --> 00:12:01.279 just asking people, what do you think would happen 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:04.059 to prices if we build a lot more housing? And 00:12:04.059 --> 00:12:07.539 roughly speaking, U .S. public opinion divides 00:12:07.539 --> 00:12:10.220 as follows. One -third says if you build a lot 00:12:10.220 --> 00:12:12.559 more housing, prices go up. One -third says if 00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:14.100 you build a lot more housing, prices go down. 00:12:14.340 --> 00:12:15.960 One -third says if you build a lot more housing, 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:18.539 nothing happens to prices. If that's what you 00:12:18.539 --> 00:12:19.899 believe, then yeah, why do you want to build 00:12:19.899 --> 00:12:23.740 housing? So it's just like the most basic, fundamental, 00:12:24.220 --> 00:12:27.940 deep -seated economic illiteracy of just insisting 00:12:27.940 --> 00:12:30.539 there's no connection at all between supply and 00:12:30.539 --> 00:12:34.389 price. So what can you tell people about that? 00:12:34.409 --> 00:12:36.610 It's like, come on, man. If you're running a 00:12:36.610 --> 00:12:38.730 lemonade stand and you can't sell your lemonade, 00:12:38.970 --> 00:12:41.090 what are you going to do? Cut the price. Why 00:12:41.090 --> 00:12:42.970 do you think housing is different? If you build 00:12:42.970 --> 00:12:45.730 a massive apartment complex and you can't rent 00:12:45.730 --> 00:12:47.309 half your units, what are you going to do? You're 00:12:47.309 --> 00:12:49.789 going to cut the price. This is not ideology. 00:12:50.210 --> 00:12:53.370 It's common sense. And yet we're at a world where 00:12:53.370 --> 00:12:57.559 there is a whole ideology of... being angry at 00:12:57.559 --> 00:13:00.379 markets and business and rich people to the point 00:13:00.379 --> 00:13:02.259 where you're just willing to deny obvious facts 00:13:02.259 --> 00:13:05.080 of supply and price are very closely connected 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:09.759 in an intuitive way. And the ideology is denying 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:13.340 that. That is not ideology to affirm that. It 00:13:13.340 --> 00:13:15.820 is ideology to deny that. It's common sense to 00:13:15.820 --> 00:13:17.799 affirm it. So I think that's the really big one. 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:20.580 Again, probably the other big one, as I said, 00:13:20.620 --> 00:13:24.360 is to accept that the net... Effect of density 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:28.120 is positive not in my eyes in particular. I'm 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:30.200 a suburban person, but in the eyes of consumers 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:34.259 The net package of density the value people attached 00:13:34.259 --> 00:13:37.389 to density is very positive Actions speak louder 00:13:37.389 --> 00:13:39.330 than words. People could live in the middle of 00:13:39.330 --> 00:13:41.950 nowhere. Telework has made that super easy. We've, 00:13:42.009 --> 00:13:43.769 for a lot of people, gotten rid of those big 00:13:43.769 --> 00:13:48.409 benefits for jobs. But still, hardly anyone wants 00:13:48.409 --> 00:13:51.210 to live out in rural areas where your housing 00:13:51.210 --> 00:13:54.830 costs will be rock bottom because it messes up 00:13:54.830 --> 00:13:57.490 your in -person opportunities so badly that people 00:13:57.490 --> 00:14:00.190 would rather pay five times the price to live 00:14:00.190 --> 00:14:02.669 around people that will clog the roads and park 00:14:02.669 --> 00:14:04.649 up the streets. And that's just fact. It's not 00:14:04.649 --> 00:14:07.750 my opinion. Yeah, I mean the millions of people 00:14:07.750 --> 00:14:10.129 living in Manhattan and dealing with all of that. 00:14:11.669 --> 00:14:13.809 Yeah, it's funny because the classic Woody Allen 00:14:13.809 --> 00:14:15.830 New York City resident is like, oh God, this 00:14:15.830 --> 00:14:17.870 city is terrible. Oh no. Why do you live there? 00:14:19.889 --> 00:14:22.309 Sorry, what was that, David? It's like, why do 00:14:22.309 --> 00:14:25.269 you even live there? Oh, well, I couldn't stay 00:14:25.269 --> 00:14:27.409 and live over in those other places, all of those 00:14:27.409 --> 00:14:33.309 rednecks, Neanderthals. I remember when I was 00:14:33.309 --> 00:14:35.409 on the job market at Princeton, a bunch of my 00:14:35.409 --> 00:14:37.070 fellow students were like, I couldn't possibly 00:14:37.070 --> 00:14:41.159 live in the South. five and four thing there 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:43.620 are animals down there and it's like look you're 00:14:43.620 --> 00:14:45.940 not going to be living out in like the toothless 00:14:45.940 --> 00:14:48.379 part of West Virginia you're going to be in the 00:14:48.379 --> 00:14:52.340 highly cosmopolitan part of the states where 00:14:52.340 --> 00:14:55.039 you would never even hear a southern accent so 00:14:55.039 --> 00:14:59.179 like why don't you stop looking the mirror and 00:14:59.179 --> 00:15:01.860 complimenting your own incredible open -mindedness 00:15:01.860 --> 00:15:05.919 and realize that you are a giant bigot. And why 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:07.919 don't you actually go there to a Southern city 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:09.659 and see what it's really like and realize that 00:15:09.659 --> 00:15:11.500 you don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. 00:15:11.539 --> 00:15:14.740 Yeah. No. And, and cities are just disproportionately 00:15:14.740 --> 00:15:16.940 left -leaning anyways. So it's not like they'll 00:15:16.940 --> 00:15:19.419 find any of these rednecks in these populated 00:15:19.419 --> 00:15:22.340 cities. It's important to remember that the political 00:15:22.340 --> 00:15:25.940 separation is nowhere near as strict as stereotypes. 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:30.299 make us imagine so like trump got like over what 00:15:30.299 --> 00:15:34.000 like 30 35 of the vote in california yeah and 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:36.039 it's like living in california you think that 00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:38.179 there's like no republicans there i mean i'm 00:15:38.179 --> 00:15:40.759 from there and it's easy to just think that and 00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:42.799 then you realize look it's like people like my 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:45.379 dad and all his buddies like the fact they live 00:15:45.379 --> 00:15:47.779 in california despite hating all the politics 00:15:47.779 --> 00:15:50.820 of the state It's because they like the weather 00:15:50.820 --> 00:15:52.360 and it's where they're from and their friends 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:55.779 are there. And there isn't the strict separation 00:15:55.779 --> 00:16:00.480 that you might imagine, in fact. Yeah. It seems 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:02.580 like the housing problem is disproportionately 00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:06.419 affecting young people. There's something like 00:16:06.419 --> 00:16:08.740 half of Americans that are below 30 are still 00:16:08.740 --> 00:16:12.740 living with their parents. Sounds a bit high, 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:15.519 but let's run with it. It might be wrong, but 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:18.659 it's very, very high. proportionally to everywhere 00:16:18.659 --> 00:16:22.360 else but scott galloway talks about how these 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:25.519 older people who have houses are building these 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:27.360 regulation modes basically to keep themselves 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:29.860 rich so why would all these people vote against 00:16:29.860 --> 00:16:32.039 themselves like the we can't really make a convincing 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:35.840 argument for them so that is a very common misperception 00:16:35.840 --> 00:16:38.539 again we got public opinion data in it is not 00:16:38.539 --> 00:16:40.679 true that this is an owners versus renters issue 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:43.840 renters generally favor a lot of regulation too 00:16:44.789 --> 00:16:46.830 Probably about not even much of a difference, 00:16:46.850 --> 00:16:49.269 if any difference. What's going on? And then 00:16:49.269 --> 00:16:52.629 why would tenants favor regulation? Because they 00:16:52.629 --> 00:16:54.809 think that regulation makes life better and solves 00:16:54.809 --> 00:16:58.500 problems. Because they have these crazy views 00:16:58.500 --> 00:17:01.179 about, first of all, denying that there's a connection 00:17:01.179 --> 00:17:02.919 between supply and price. And second of all, 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:06.619 denying that on balance, the net package of all 00:17:06.619 --> 00:17:08.799 the good and bad of density is good, even though 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:10.799 by their own actions, they're trying to get density. 00:17:11.500 --> 00:17:14.279 But then how would it be in the self -interest 00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:18.279 of current owners to go and deregulate? So for 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:20.200 some, it is not in their interest. And we'll 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:22.259 just be honest about that. But for a lot, it 00:17:22.259 --> 00:17:25.660 is. Why? First of all, if you're an owner, but 00:17:25.660 --> 00:17:28.700 you want to upgrade, you don't want housing prices 00:17:28.700 --> 00:17:31.119 to be sky high. If you're in your starter home, 00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:33.200 yes, it's wonderful. There's high regulation 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:35.339 that makes the sale price of your starter home 00:17:35.339 --> 00:17:38.039 sky high. But if you want to move to a better 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:40.579 home, then in fact, on balance, you'd be better 00:17:40.579 --> 00:17:42.279 off if housing prices were cheap because you're 00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:44.920 trying to get more housing. And so you're a net 00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:47.380 loser from regulation, even if you're an owner, 00:17:47.420 --> 00:17:50.549 if you want to upgrade. A second, if you want 00:17:50.549 --> 00:17:53.450 to subdivide or otherwise improve on your property, 00:17:53.630 --> 00:17:57.190 then regulation is bad for you because it's preventing 00:17:57.190 --> 00:18:00.049 you from making money off of your property. Really, 00:18:00.210 --> 00:18:01.869 in terms of self -interest, what you want is 00:18:01.869 --> 00:18:04.869 to be the only person in your city that's allowed 00:18:04.869 --> 00:18:08.750 to build anything he wants. Right? And then you 00:18:08.750 --> 00:18:11.039 sell it and you build a skyscraper. Yeah, yeah. 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:14.000 Next best thing is if only your neighborhood 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:16.819 had no regulation. That would be the next best 00:18:16.819 --> 00:18:19.140 thing. Then you sell out to a bunch of developers 00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:22.839 and you make a killing. If you could be in the 00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:25.380 one neighborhood in San Francisco that was unregulated, 00:18:25.579 --> 00:18:28.519 you would make tens of millions of dollars, maybe 00:18:28.519 --> 00:18:32.440 like $100 million from one stupid townhouse. 00:18:32.980 --> 00:18:36.859 All right. Now, then third point. If you have 00:18:36.859 --> 00:18:39.400 kids that you would like to live within 100 miles 00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:44.099 of you, you are losing in a very important way 00:18:44.099 --> 00:18:47.619 from regulation. It's basically either your kids 00:18:47.619 --> 00:18:50.440 are going to live far away from you if the prices 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:52.640 are sky high, or they're going to keep living 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:54.019 in your basement, which means they don't get 00:18:54.019 --> 00:18:57.160 married and don't give you grandkids. Alternately, 00:18:57.180 --> 00:18:59.900 you could go and get a big home equity loan against 00:18:59.900 --> 00:19:01.599 the inflated value of your house and give it 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:03.160 to your kid to let them make the down payment. 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:06.900 Why not just have low prices if that's what it's 00:19:06.900 --> 00:19:09.579 going to be? It is not in the interest of anyone 00:19:09.579 --> 00:19:12.259 who wants their kids to live close to have a 00:19:12.259 --> 00:19:16.599 lot of regulation. Instead, even if your housing 00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:19.059 price will fall, but you have this offsetting 00:19:19.059 --> 00:19:20.700 gain of your kids living nearby because they 00:19:20.700 --> 00:19:23.519 can afford it. And if you are the kind of person 00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:25.700 that cares about your kids and wants to see them 00:19:25.700 --> 00:19:27.960 and wants to know your grandkids, then it totally 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:31.420 makes sense self -interestedly to be in favor 00:19:31.420 --> 00:19:34.950 of a pile of deregulation. Yeah, yeah. But if 00:19:34.950 --> 00:19:36.450 any of those three arguments don't apply, then 00:19:36.450 --> 00:19:39.970 yeah, then the system benefits you. But we're 00:19:39.970 --> 00:19:41.630 down to a pretty small number of people, actually. 00:19:42.029 --> 00:19:45.269 Yeah, yeah. Do you see any downstream effects 00:19:45.269 --> 00:19:48.910 from this housing problem that is affecting young 00:19:48.910 --> 00:19:52.890 people apart from housing prices? So, I mean, 00:19:52.950 --> 00:19:54.869 I see almost nothing but downstream effects. 00:19:54.990 --> 00:19:56.829 So there's almost no issue this doesn't matter 00:19:56.829 --> 00:20:02.279 for. It matters for equality because... renters 00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:07.200 are poorer than owners, and also because renters... 00:20:07.690 --> 00:20:10.910 Just really cannot lose from deregulation. So 00:20:10.910 --> 00:20:13.170 whereas owners at least can, not necessarily, 00:20:13.390 --> 00:20:16.230 but they can. So there is some downside for owners 00:20:16.230 --> 00:20:18.349 in terms of capital value. So young people tend 00:20:18.349 --> 00:20:20.690 to be in that group of people that don't own 00:20:20.690 --> 00:20:22.569 homes and have lower incomes. So it's making 00:20:22.569 --> 00:20:24.769 inequality worse. It's making social mobility 00:20:24.769 --> 00:20:27.710 worse. It's making family formation worse because 00:20:27.710 --> 00:20:29.730 people either have to live in the middle of nowhere 00:20:29.730 --> 00:20:32.710 or they live in a very small space or they live 00:20:32.710 --> 00:20:34.809 in with their parents. All right. So there's 00:20:34.809 --> 00:20:37.440 that. And in the book, I go over a lot of other 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:39.839 problems that don't immediately seem to be related 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:42.180 to housing regulation, but actually they are 00:20:42.180 --> 00:20:46.039 very tightly related to housing regulation. It 00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:49.240 just requires that people just look in a mirror 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:52.259 and just say, yeah, like, most people are just 00:20:52.259 --> 00:20:54.380 really wrong about this. I used to be one of 00:20:54.380 --> 00:20:55.880 them. I'm not going to be one of them anymore. 00:20:55.980 --> 00:20:59.359 I'm going to go against my society. Yeah. Which 00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:03.900 is hard for people to do, but it's... It is the 00:21:03.900 --> 00:21:07.660 rationalist path. Almost everyone else in human 00:21:07.660 --> 00:21:10.319 history has lived in a crazy, screwed up society. 00:21:10.940 --> 00:21:15.039 Probably you do too. And a lot of it is just 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:17.640 the courage to be a nonconformist and to go and 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:19.380 say, I'm not going to believe it just because 00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:22.380 it's widely believed. I'm going to ask questions. 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:24.579 I'm going to be open to arguments and evidence. 00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:27.940 And I think if you read my Build Baby Build and 00:21:27.940 --> 00:21:29.559 you're open to arguments and evidence, you will 00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:33.720 be highly convinced. Yeah, yeah. I mean, 100%. 00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:36.640 It made it pretty clear that there's basically 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:40.599 mostly only benefits for most people. Yes. Yeah. 00:21:40.660 --> 00:21:43.339 Which is pretty convincing as long as you're 00:21:43.339 --> 00:21:45.319 not in one of those camps where you don't benefit 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:50.220 from housing deregulation. Most of the real opposition 00:21:50.220 --> 00:21:53.799 just comes from fanatics, people who just love 00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:56.099 the idea of using government to solve problems 00:21:56.099 --> 00:21:58.920 and just imagine that they are the voice of God 00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:02.240 and if they are the ones saving our society from 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:05.519 horrible things and all the while demonizing 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:09.099 developers of all people, which is like one step 00:22:09.099 --> 00:22:10.880 away from thinking that farmers are the root 00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:14.470 of all evil. They're not evil. They are supplying 00:22:14.470 --> 00:22:17.529 the most essential product for human existence, 00:22:17.730 --> 00:22:20.589 food. And real estate developers are supplying 00:22:20.589 --> 00:22:23.589 the second most essential product for human survival, 00:22:23.750 --> 00:22:27.250 which is shelter. So get off your high horse. 00:22:27.470 --> 00:22:29.829 You're the bad guy if you're trying to stop housing 00:22:29.829 --> 00:22:32.750 from being built, not the developers. They're 00:22:32.750 --> 00:22:36.410 doing the Lord's work. Yep. Yep. It's like complaining 00:22:36.410 --> 00:22:38.470 about the price of eggs and blaming the farmers. 00:22:38.750 --> 00:22:42.490 Yeah. Yeah. Are people doing that? I don't think 00:22:42.490 --> 00:22:44.869 they are, but it would be – Yeah, it's more of 00:22:44.869 --> 00:22:47.210 like deflation or something or bird flu. Yeah, 00:22:47.230 --> 00:22:50.210 I've not heard much vitriol against farmers. 00:22:50.569 --> 00:22:53.069 No, no. So that wouldn't make any sense just 00:22:53.069 --> 00:22:55.509 like in this case. Yeah, well, I mean when does 00:22:55.509 --> 00:23:00.369 that stop people? True. I was actually surprised 00:23:00.369 --> 00:23:03.009 when I was reading your book that this is actually 00:23:03.009 --> 00:23:06.730 pretty equal in terms of left and right and what 00:23:06.730 --> 00:23:08.329 they believe about housing regulation because 00:23:08.329 --> 00:23:11.509 my instinct would be to say – oh, probably most 00:23:11.509 --> 00:23:14.789 people on the right or libertarians are anti 00:23:14.789 --> 00:23:17.369 -regulation of the housing market and then liberals 00:23:17.369 --> 00:23:22.710 are a lot pro -regulation. Well, it's more complicated 00:23:22.710 --> 00:23:24.730 than that. So here is the fact. First of all, 00:23:24.769 --> 00:23:28.210 a large majority, maybe 90 % of professional 00:23:28.210 --> 00:23:30.829 pro -housing activists are left -wing. The YIMBY 00:23:30.829 --> 00:23:33.210 movement is very left -wing. All right, so... 00:23:33.549 --> 00:23:36.670 First truth. Second truth. Left -wing areas tend 00:23:36.670 --> 00:23:39.049 to have much stricter housing regulation than 00:23:39.049 --> 00:23:41.390 right -wing areas because those YIMBYs are just 00:23:41.390 --> 00:23:45.190 one small part of the left -wing coalition. And 00:23:45.190 --> 00:23:47.250 a much bigger and more important part is just 00:23:47.250 --> 00:23:50.109 the anti -market, anti -business local activist 00:23:50.109 --> 00:23:53.190 group. And they outnumber those YIMBYs, Lord 00:23:53.190 --> 00:23:56.809 only knows, five to one, ten to one. So California 00:23:56.809 --> 00:23:59.950 has very strict housing regulation and it's a 00:23:59.950 --> 00:24:02.049 big part of this general left -wing attitude. 00:24:03.069 --> 00:24:05.690 The YIMBYs are left -wing also, and they're against 00:24:05.690 --> 00:24:07.809 it, and they're the most vocal and effective 00:24:07.809 --> 00:24:11.130 opponents. But still, they are a minority in 00:24:11.130 --> 00:24:14.289 that coalition. On the other hand, intellectually, 00:24:14.690 --> 00:24:17.109 among right -wing people, there's especially 00:24:17.109 --> 00:24:20.609 a feeling of single -family housing is precious, 00:24:20.650 --> 00:24:22.210 and we should protect that, and government shouldn't 00:24:22.210 --> 00:24:23.789 just allow people to be building multifamily 00:24:23.789 --> 00:24:27.210 homes. And yet, in general, red states have way 00:24:27.210 --> 00:24:31.619 less housing regulation than blue states. And 00:24:31.619 --> 00:24:33.319 as to what's going on, I think a lot of it is 00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:36.140 just they got a lot fewer of those bad left -wing 00:24:36.140 --> 00:24:39.279 activists, and they also just respect them less. 00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:42.240 They don't regard them as the conscience of their 00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:45.380 movement. Look, I think that in a place like 00:24:45.380 --> 00:24:48.220 California, like the angry people that want to 00:24:48.220 --> 00:24:50.380 save a bird nest at the expense of a billion 00:24:50.380 --> 00:24:53.259 -dollar building, I think that mainstream Democrats 00:24:53.259 --> 00:24:57.859 feel kind of... awe of the activists and feel 00:24:57.859 --> 00:24:59.799 like they're the ones that are really living 00:24:59.799 --> 00:25:03.460 a righteous life and I'm like a corrupt bargainer. 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:09.539 I'm a sellout. Whereas in a red state, there 00:25:09.539 --> 00:25:13.160 is a distaste for those activists. And it is 00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:15.880 a healthy distaste, which just, yeah, all of 00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:22.619 you tree -hugging, blue -haired, cat ladies. 00:25:25.220 --> 00:25:29.019 I don't have a lot of proof for this, but it 00:25:29.019 --> 00:25:31.220 just seems very plausible to me that that's what's 00:25:31.220 --> 00:25:33.960 going on, is that your typical left -wing anti 00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:35.859 -housing activists, if they just go to Texas 00:25:35.859 --> 00:25:37.940 and try to get their way, they don't have the 00:25:37.940 --> 00:25:41.720 same... guilt that they can prey on for local 00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:43.339 governments which are going to be a lot more 00:25:43.339 --> 00:25:45.299 republican and they will just have there'll be 00:25:45.299 --> 00:25:47.680 a cultural chasm between them such that even 00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:49.400 if the left -wing activists are saying something 00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:51.640 which if they said it in the right way would 00:25:51.640 --> 00:25:54.500 resonate they just refuse to change the way they 00:25:54.500 --> 00:25:56.759 talk in order to be effective and thank god for 00:25:56.759 --> 00:25:59.259 that yeah they can play the performative empathy 00:25:59.259 --> 00:26:02.039 game and then get some support just from people 00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:04.559 who feel guilty for some reason Yeah, I mean, 00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:06.799 it's like there's this old thing in the 1972 00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:10.299 election of I'm going clean for Gene, where basically 00:26:10.299 --> 00:26:12.579 you've got Senator, I believe, Eugene McCarthy, 00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:15.720 who's a left wing guy. And then there's a bunch 00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:17.960 of hippies that like him. And then they say, 00:26:18.019 --> 00:26:19.859 OK, but we want you to do to help your candidate 00:26:19.859 --> 00:26:22.299 win is get a nice haircut, wear a suit, stop 00:26:22.299 --> 00:26:25.680 being a hippie and sell regular people on him. 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:28.279 And they were supposedly at least the slogan 00:26:28.279 --> 00:26:30.000 suggests they were able to get some hippies to 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:32.400 go and change their look in order to be more 00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:35.299 effective. But at the same time, it doesn't seem 00:26:35.299 --> 00:26:37.119 like many left -wing people are willing to go 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:39.519 and change their look just to appeal to normal 00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:43.279 Americans like my dad. It's so important to them 00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:46.440 to go and keep looking weird and using odd jargon 00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:48.740 that the fact that if they would just compromise 00:26:48.740 --> 00:26:50.900 on superficial stuff, they could win on fundamentals 00:26:50.900 --> 00:26:53.740 isn't important to them. Yeah, yeah. It's a little 00:26:53.740 --> 00:26:56.140 bit like your concept that you talked about, 00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:59.630 just appeasing. a little bit yeah and then having 00:26:59.630 --> 00:27:01.309 an easier time getting what you want if you're 00:27:01.309 --> 00:27:04.789 just willing to appease yeah look it's just it's 00:27:04.789 --> 00:27:07.049 just reality and like so appeasement is this 00:27:07.049 --> 00:27:10.130 terrible name all because of the munich conference 00:27:10.130 --> 00:27:15.589 and yet everyone appeases every day when they 00:27:15.589 --> 00:27:19.130 live in a society yep Why? Because appeasement 00:27:19.130 --> 00:27:22.329 normally works really well. If someone bumps 00:27:22.329 --> 00:27:25.109 into you, you could just go and flip out at them 00:27:25.109 --> 00:27:27.509 and say, I demand you get on your knees and apologize 00:27:27.509 --> 00:27:31.190 to me or I will call the police over this affront. 00:27:31.269 --> 00:27:34.490 You could go and live that way and your life 00:27:34.490 --> 00:27:36.869 will actually be terrible. Yeah, yeah. Or you 00:27:36.869 --> 00:27:39.650 could have a stranger bump into you and you just 00:27:39.650 --> 00:27:45.420 say, oh, sorry. Right? That's what I do. It works 00:27:45.420 --> 00:27:48.460 wonders for me. And I do know people who are 00:27:48.460 --> 00:27:50.940 more confrontational than me. They're making 00:27:50.940 --> 00:27:55.039 their own lives worse. They say, oh, I'm playing 00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:57.500 a great public good. I'm deterring bad behavior. 00:27:57.779 --> 00:27:59.619 And it's like, I don't think you're deterring 00:27:59.619 --> 00:28:02.319 bad behavior. You're just randomly terrifying 00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:06.680 people and causing conflict. Don't congratulate 00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:10.450 yourself too much. Yeah. Yeah. No, that always 00:28:10.450 --> 00:28:12.190 reminds me of the quote, would you rather be 00:28:12.190 --> 00:28:16.509 right or rather be loved? Basically. So look, 00:28:16.609 --> 00:28:19.250 like as a professor, I have chosen to be right 00:28:19.250 --> 00:28:24.230 in a bunch of cases over being loved, but that's 00:28:24.230 --> 00:28:28.470 something that I circumscribed to my work. And, 00:28:28.470 --> 00:28:29.930 you know, like a lot of things, it's not really 00:28:29.930 --> 00:28:32.930 about truth or not. It's just about like, can 00:28:32.930 --> 00:28:35.890 you go and be nice to people and smile and say, 00:28:35.930 --> 00:28:39.119 sure, not a big deal. Right. And it's like, look, 00:28:39.220 --> 00:28:41.279 if you say it's not a big deal, that makes it 00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:43.480 not a big deal. So just cultivate that attitude. 00:28:43.640 --> 00:28:45.420 You don't have to be a liar to be a nice person. 00:28:45.779 --> 00:28:49.440 Yeah. Yeah. Is there is there anything that young 00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:52.019 people can do in the face of this regulation 00:28:52.019 --> 00:28:55.019 problem on an individual or a genetic level to 00:28:55.019 --> 00:28:57.980 help themselves? Yeah. Good question. So be more 00:28:57.980 --> 00:28:59.660 flexible about where you're willing to live. 00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:03.180 That's the main thing you can do. So get rid 00:29:03.180 --> 00:29:05.000 of this idea. The only place in the world worth 00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:06.859 living is the Bay Area. If that's your idea, 00:29:07.059 --> 00:29:09.119 then you're in a lot of trouble. Yeah, yeah. 00:29:09.319 --> 00:29:11.440 So yeah, if you're agentic, again, basically 00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:16.900 shop around and be looking for underlooked trade 00:29:16.900 --> 00:29:19.700 -offs. So it's like if I just go 45 minutes away, 00:29:19.859 --> 00:29:21.980 then the price falls a lot, but it's actually 00:29:21.980 --> 00:29:24.880 not that different in terms of what my day is 00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:28.259 like. So there's that. So other things you can 00:29:28.259 --> 00:29:31.660 do. If you're like, there are alternative lifestyles 00:29:31.660 --> 00:29:33.559 of, you know, nothing extreme, but just like 00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:36.180 having a shared house, things like that. Some 00:29:36.180 --> 00:29:38.240 people are really uncomfortable with that. I 00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:41.579 mean, like I personally, you know, in a way, 00:29:41.619 --> 00:29:44.440 like if all of our wives could be on board with 00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:46.220 it, I would actually be very happy living in 00:29:46.220 --> 00:29:48.200 intentional community with all my friends and 00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:50.339 where we could save on housing costs and have 00:29:50.339 --> 00:29:52.160 common areas and everything. And really just 00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:54.660 comes down to, well, just worried that our wives 00:29:54.660 --> 00:29:56.839 wouldn't get along. Like me and my buddies, I 00:29:56.839 --> 00:29:58.859 think we're. doing great. And like, we're at 00:29:58.859 --> 00:30:01.039 least my very best friends. I feel like we're 00:30:01.039 --> 00:30:04.819 so simpatico and like, it's just, you know, it's 00:30:04.819 --> 00:30:07.960 brotherhood really. Sisterhood I have found is 00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:12.440 just less achieved. So you're like, prove me 00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:14.700 wrong kids, but that's what I've seen. So like 00:30:14.700 --> 00:30:17.160 the one friend you made in like sixth grade and 00:30:17.160 --> 00:30:19.519 then you're just friends with forever. Yes. Yes. 00:30:19.859 --> 00:30:22.200 So there's that, but you're like, if you can 00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:24.359 find people that are actually on board with a 00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:26.980 different kind of housing arrangement, then that 00:30:26.980 --> 00:30:30.859 seems reasonable to me. Honestly, I personally 00:30:30.859 --> 00:30:33.440 would be totally cool with multi -generational 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:37.039 living with my kids and their spouses. My kids 00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:38.740 are great people. I wouldn't want to live with 00:30:38.740 --> 00:30:41.599 my parents because they're crazy, but my kids 00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:45.420 are reasonable people. Maybe they think the same 00:30:45.420 --> 00:30:48.559 thing about you at some point. Look, they're 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:52.579 the ones with bad tempers. Yeah. I've had my 00:30:52.579 --> 00:30:55.440 dad explode on me for not exploding when he wants 00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:59.420 me to explode. That's a little bit. You wouldn't 00:30:59.420 --> 00:31:02.519 care about that, would you? Like, can we just 00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:05.019 like, look, you're going to yell at me for not 00:31:05.019 --> 00:31:09.839 getting angry. Yeah. So like, yep. Like my kids, 00:31:09.940 --> 00:31:12.079 like everybody's got a good, everyone's got a 00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:15.519 good temper as long as they were to go and marry 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:19.160 people that also were. on board with that, then 00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:21.299 I would feel very comfortable sharing a house 00:31:21.299 --> 00:31:22.960 with them and having multi -generational living. 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:27.039 Yeah. My wife wouldn't be. Yeah. That's the issue. 00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:31.000 Yeah. So I guess something very agentic is for 00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:32.920 the long run, you got to marry someone who's 00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:37.079 just totally chill. Yeah. Find someone, find 00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:40.579 your guy, like find a chill woman who sees the 00:31:40.579 --> 00:31:44.380 good in people. And someone who's not that keen 00:31:44.380 --> 00:31:46.960 on getting their way. So someone says it's more 00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:49.920 important just to be really liked than to get 00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:54.779 your details satisfied. Yeah, yeah. Good advice. 00:31:56.099 --> 00:31:58.079 We only have a little bit of time left, but I 00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:00.180 wanted to turn the direction a little bit. I 00:32:00.180 --> 00:32:02.599 really liked your book, Self -Help is Like a 00:32:02.599 --> 00:32:05.119 Vaccine. Oh, good. I think it's a really good, 00:32:05.220 --> 00:32:07.359 just filled with a lot of simple ways that you 00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:10.470 found out to make your life better. I try. And 00:32:10.470 --> 00:32:12.930 this podcast is mainly aimed at young people 00:32:12.930 --> 00:32:14.509 who are trying to improve themselves, learn about 00:32:14.509 --> 00:32:16.950 the world, and figure out a way to be more agentic 00:32:16.950 --> 00:32:19.130 and courageous in the world. Yep, great word. 00:32:19.589 --> 00:32:22.650 Agentic. Be agentic. Yeah, it is a great word. 00:32:22.769 --> 00:32:25.710 It's both a blessing and a curse to be agentic. 00:32:25.950 --> 00:32:28.849 But we have a tradition on the podcast where 00:32:28.849 --> 00:32:32.289 we ask the guests to share a little bit of maybe 00:32:32.289 --> 00:32:34.609 vulnerability or a way in which they still struggle 00:32:34.609 --> 00:32:38.019 with personal development. All right. They share 00:32:38.019 --> 00:32:40.319 that thing and then they make a commitment to 00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:44.180 be a little bit better at it in some way. So 00:32:44.180 --> 00:32:47.740 the big life lesson that I'm always pushing is 00:32:47.740 --> 00:32:50.319 just to be friendlier to people. And I'll just 00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:53.059 say, like, in my misspent youth, I was the opposite 00:32:53.059 --> 00:32:55.839 of this. The number of people I just harangued. 00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:59.880 It's like, what your problem is? The number of 00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:02.599 times I told my mom, like, this is a quote. When 00:33:02.599 --> 00:33:04.920 will you get it through your thick skull, vet? 00:33:07.820 --> 00:33:10.099 I talked to people like that when I was young. 00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:13.819 And here's the crazy thing. When I was 17, I 00:33:13.819 --> 00:33:15.759 read Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence 00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:17.640 People. And he said, do the opposite of all this. 00:33:17.940 --> 00:33:20.119 And I read the book and realized he was right. 00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:21.799 And I just said, no, I'm not going to change. 00:33:25.779 --> 00:33:27.839 The wheel. And then like six years ago, I read 00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:31.460 the book and like, why, Brian? Brian, why didn't 00:33:31.460 --> 00:33:34.000 you just listen? Why didn't you just do it? You 00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:37.460 know, so. That is something I'll say, look, I 00:33:37.460 --> 00:33:42.700 struggle with it, but to me, honestly, at this 00:33:42.700 --> 00:33:44.980 point, I've really gamified it. And when I'm 00:33:44.980 --> 00:33:47.700 in a social situation, I actually get a lot of 00:33:47.700 --> 00:33:50.000 fun out of saying, all right, so what's the right 00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:52.299 thing to say? How can I do it? How can I do it? 00:33:52.299 --> 00:33:54.880 How can I do it? Right. And like yesterday I 00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:56.619 was in a very high stress situation. I was actually 00:33:56.619 --> 00:33:58.319 speaking before the most hostile audience of 00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:02.940 my entire life. It was DEI hearings at GMU and 00:34:02.940 --> 00:34:04.480 there were a bunch of protesters in the room. 00:34:06.349 --> 00:34:09.730 I lost sleep over it the night after, actually, 00:34:09.889 --> 00:34:12.489 because it was sufficiently traumatic. But the 00:34:12.489 --> 00:34:14.010 whole time I was there, like, all right, so how 00:34:14.010 --> 00:34:16.550 can I? Look, I know I can't actually do it, but 00:34:16.550 --> 00:34:19.349 how would I present myself? How would I talk 00:34:19.349 --> 00:34:21.909 if I was trying to win over the angriest protester 00:34:21.909 --> 00:34:24.590 in the room? And that did make it more fun to 00:34:24.590 --> 00:34:28.010 me. So if you want to say something like, what 00:34:28.010 --> 00:34:32.849 do I really struggle with? I guess, like, forgiveness. 00:34:34.879 --> 00:34:37.980 I struggle with that. Right. You know, especially 00:34:37.980 --> 00:34:41.139 if the person really clearly has no intention 00:34:41.139 --> 00:34:43.300 of ever changing. You can't talk to them. They 00:34:43.300 --> 00:34:46.039 just keep doing it. And it's like, all right, 00:34:46.039 --> 00:34:48.159 well, the person is in my life. I'm like, so 00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:50.780 being upset with them isn't going to help anything. 00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:55.920 And yet it's just hard to do. I mean, the kind 00:34:55.920 --> 00:34:59.119 of thing that I've actually tried is just in 00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:01.480 my mind, imagining the conversation that would 00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:05.300 make me feel better. So it's just like you just 00:35:05.300 --> 00:35:07.539 visualize and imagine the conversation where 00:35:07.539 --> 00:35:09.739 the person just says, like, I'm so sorry that 00:35:09.739 --> 00:35:11.400 I could have ever treated you that way. What 00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:13.980 I did was wrong. And it's just a fantasy in your 00:35:13.980 --> 00:35:17.300 head, but I think that that does help. I'm a 00:35:17.300 --> 00:35:19.300 big fan, as you would know from the book, of 00:35:19.300 --> 00:35:21.579 exposure therapy, of if something's really bothering 00:35:21.579 --> 00:35:25.670 you, the solution is to... Start off with low 00:35:25.670 --> 00:35:27.789 doses of what's bothering you and just ramp the 00:35:27.789 --> 00:35:29.809 dose up until it doesn't bother you anymore. 00:35:30.150 --> 00:35:33.070 So usually that's for things like spiders, right? 00:35:33.150 --> 00:35:36.150 If you have spider phobia, arachnophobia, but 00:35:36.150 --> 00:35:40.429 totally works for like any kind of persistent 00:35:40.429 --> 00:35:43.880 obsessive thoughts. It hurts, right? If there's 00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:45.320 something that's really bothering you, try to 00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:47.539 pushing out of your mind. But yeah, this is like 00:35:47.539 --> 00:35:50.619 a major problem in my life that I've had is with 00:35:50.619 --> 00:35:54.159 intrusive, unpleasant, obsessive thoughts. And 00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:57.099 this exposure therapy has really worked wonders 00:35:57.099 --> 00:36:01.360 for me. But it requires a lot of painful work. 00:36:01.500 --> 00:36:02.840 It's just like every day, I'm just going to set 00:36:02.840 --> 00:36:05.500 up some time to deliberately think about something 00:36:05.500 --> 00:36:08.480 that is horribly unpleasant on purpose, right? 00:36:08.699 --> 00:36:10.400 And basically, you know, it's worked when you 00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:13.869 get bored. during your time no emotion comes 00:36:13.869 --> 00:36:16.630 up yeah yeah it's just like what wait what was 00:36:16.630 --> 00:36:18.869 i thinking about oh yeah like what about death 00:36:18.869 --> 00:36:22.030 or whatever what about getting horrible dementia 00:36:22.030 --> 00:36:24.429 and ending up like my mom and like i visualize 00:36:24.429 --> 00:36:27.349 this for three minutes now and it's like okay 00:36:27.349 --> 00:36:29.309 my mind is wandering because i just don't care 00:36:29.309 --> 00:36:31.369 anymore yeah all right that's what you're going 00:36:31.369 --> 00:36:34.949 for yeah that's powerful yeah you you've heard 00:36:34.949 --> 00:36:37.610 of victor frankl's paradoxical intention it's 00:36:37.610 --> 00:36:39.469 a little bit similar to the like don't think 00:36:39.469 --> 00:36:42.929 of an elephant uh it's kind of like the thing 00:36:42.929 --> 00:36:45.389 that you're afraid of happening basically intend 00:36:45.389 --> 00:36:47.449 for it to happen when you're taking the action 00:36:47.449 --> 00:36:50.110 so if you're like scared of talking to someone 00:36:50.110 --> 00:36:53.070 you intend for it to be awkward on purpose and 00:36:53.070 --> 00:36:55.860 then it ends up not being awkward Oh, I see. 00:36:55.880 --> 00:36:57.800 So you deliberately try to make it awkward. Like 00:36:57.800 --> 00:36:59.340 in your head, you're like, it's going to be awkward. 00:36:59.340 --> 00:37:00.500 It's going to be awkward. I'm going to intend 00:37:00.500 --> 00:37:02.219 for it to be awkward. And you'll even be like, 00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:04.719 hey, I'm really awkward. I'm sorry, but this 00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:07.039 might be awkward. And you'll just like go all 00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:09.579 in into intending. I mean, like I can believe 00:37:09.579 --> 00:37:11.639 that that could work for some people in some 00:37:11.639 --> 00:37:14.039 cases. Yeah, yeah. It's for chronic overthinking 00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:16.400 and stuff like that. Right. I mean, definitely 00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:18.760 a big piece of advice that I give to grad students 00:37:18.760 --> 00:37:21.400 when they're. presenting their work is don't 00:37:21.400 --> 00:37:23.400 start by apologizing and definitely don't start 00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:25.679 by apologizing for being late or for your slides 00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:27.219 aren't in order or anything like that. You're 00:37:27.219 --> 00:37:29.440 just calling attention to your failure, trying 00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:31.619 to impress people, put your best foot forward. 00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:34.360 It's the, uh, I'm sorry I'm late versus thank 00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:37.320 you for your patience. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Great. 00:37:37.619 --> 00:37:39.860 All right. You got wisdom, David, at a young 00:37:39.860 --> 00:37:42.679 age. Congratulations. Hey, thank you, man. Um, 00:37:42.760 --> 00:37:44.880 yeah, you talked about forgiveness. So my, my 00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:48.110 final question would be, What's a small way that 00:37:48.110 --> 00:37:50.849 you can maybe get better at that within one or 00:37:50.849 --> 00:37:52.989 two weeks or just be intentional about thinking 00:37:52.989 --> 00:37:55.329 about it? Yeah, I mean, I think I was just going 00:37:55.329 --> 00:37:57.769 to double down on what I said is visualize the 00:37:57.769 --> 00:37:59.349 conversation that would make you feel better 00:37:59.349 --> 00:38:02.190 in detail. Cool. And then not just once. You 00:38:02.190 --> 00:38:04.489 got to do it a bunch of times. Yeah. So just 00:38:04.489 --> 00:38:06.969 like, what would that person have to say to make 00:38:06.969 --> 00:38:10.469 you cry tears of joy and relief? And then imagine 00:38:10.469 --> 00:38:14.630 that. Not just for a second, but just visualize 00:38:14.630 --> 00:38:17.480 it like you're watching a movie. Or like if you're 00:38:17.480 --> 00:38:19.820 inclined, you could even write it out as a dialogue. 00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:22.820 And then the next time, write it again. Don't 00:38:22.820 --> 00:38:25.059 just reread it. But each time, write it out and 00:38:25.059 --> 00:38:26.500 just say, okay, I'm starting from scratch. What 00:38:26.500 --> 00:38:29.099 conversation do I want to happen that would make 00:38:29.099 --> 00:38:31.739 me feel better? Yeah, that's great advice, man. 00:38:32.750 --> 00:38:34.409 Thank you for your time. Where can people find 00:38:34.409 --> 00:38:36.809 you if they're interested in finding your book 00:38:36.809 --> 00:38:39.110 or what you do? All right. So all my books, Build 00:38:39.110 --> 00:38:41.969 Baby Build and Self -Help is Like a Vaccine and 00:38:41.969 --> 00:38:46.289 Over 10 Others are all on Amazon. And then my 00:38:46.289 --> 00:38:50.369 website is bkappa .com and my sub stack is BetOnIt. 00:38:51.650 --> 00:38:54.190 Cool. Awesome. Thank you so much, man. This has 00:38:54.190 --> 00:38:56.070 been great. Thanks a lot. All right. Fantastic 00:38:56.070 --> 00:38:57.730 meeting you, David. Hope to meet you this summer 00:38:57.730 --> 00:39:00.489 at Kaplicon. I know. It'll be great. Okay.