WEBVTT

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Hello my friends! Welcome back to another episode

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of the CNS Podcast. Our guest today is Bob Cloutier.

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He is a retired business owner and a father.

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Today, we will discuss why money will never make

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you happy. Why Bob got kicked out of his house

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at 18 years old. His experience living out of

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his car. Why leaving his family saved him from

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a lot more suffering. How he overcame the worst

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moments of his life. How he started his first

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business. And much more. If you like this show

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and want to support it, the easy way to do that

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is to go ahead and subscribe and then share it

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your feed. Every share makes a difference. Thank

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you so much for your support. Enjoy the episode.

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the avenue that you did to get to the financial

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success that you've gotten to? Like, how did

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you get to where you are now? I will say when

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I was younger, I certainly thought life was everything

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that hard work and everything I did on my own.

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I certainly had that mentality and certainly

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relied on myself. and my own intuition and my

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hard work to get where I was, to where I am.

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What I began to realize as I was growing up and

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getting older, probably into my mid -30s, at

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that time I probably had 12 really cool cars

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similar to this. They weren't Dodge Vipers. They

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didn't make them back then. But I had a lot of

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cool cars. And I reflected. on life. Take time

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when you get older. And reflected, and I thought,

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wow, what's all this stuff I have? What does

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it really mean? How does it really impact anything

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we do and live our lives? And from that, became

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more of a consistent churchgoer and started going

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to services every week and sort of found that

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those things are really all meaningless because

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when we leave this place where we're living,

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and life here is short for all of us. It doesn't

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matter if you live here for one year or even

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if you live here for 100. In the big scheme of

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things, life is pretty short. And so what I began

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to realize was through my life, because of the

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things that were happening, it was just too coincidental.

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that good things were coming my way. And so you

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begin to realize that someone is there walking

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with you. And different people might have different

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views on that, but what I came to learn was that,

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hey, my relationship with Jesus is really something

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that helps me in my day -to -day life, and it

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helps me come to where I am today. Yeah. And

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what was the... How did you get to the point

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where you did have all this stuff, where you

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were a pretty poor boy before living out of your

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car? How did you go from that to having 12 supercars

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in your garage? Well, I didn't have 12 in my

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garage at that time, but I did have 12. My garage

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was a little smaller then. It wasn't in this

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house I was at. So back then, like I said, I

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thought it was everything I was doing. And so

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I was working hard. I'd worked two full -time

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jobs and a part -time job. And in some respect,

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when you're working like that, it's hard to get

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into a lot of trouble because you're busy from

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the moment you get up to the moment you go to

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bed. But I was always one of those that could

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think a little differently than others and sort

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of see that I could take some risk and I could

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see some long -term planning. I was never really

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short -sighted. And those are the type of things

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I think that are gifts that God gives us. Some

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people might say your guardian angel is with

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you at all times, and maybe that's true. I don't

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know 100 % for sure. But I will say that life

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worked out too well for me. There was too many

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bad things that could have happened that didn't.

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And I do attribute that to a power greater than

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just myself. So if you'd like to hear a life

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story from when I was first, you know, when I

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first graduated high school and left home to

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where I'm at today, we could step there or wherever

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you'd like to go. Yeah. I mean, first off, I'd

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like to comment what you said about material

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stuff doesn't matter. material stuff really does

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matter it seems like it matters but the best

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analogy i've ever heard for for money and stuff

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is we all sit down at a poker table and we we

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get our hand we play our chips and then at the

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end instead of cashing out our chips death knocks

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on your shoulder and he said it's time to go

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and you just push all the chips back onto the

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table and everyone continues to play without

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you you can't take any of it out with you which

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I really like that analogy that speaks to me

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into how the stuff doesn't really matter. It's

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so true what you just said. The thing I think

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most people don't realize is we hear society

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norms saying the ones with the most toys win.

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We hear a lot of cliches similar to that. What

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I found is, and the reason why I still have some

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cool cars, I have a number of them here, is because

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it allows me to meet. other people that I probably

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wouldn't meet if I didn't have these cars. And

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what it allows me to do is it allows me to show

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that you can have a cool car like this and still

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have faith. And so when we go on rallies and

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other road trips with other people, though the

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cars are what sort of our common denominator,

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what sort of sets us aside is I let people know

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that, hey, I plant a seed and I let them know

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that, hey, on Sundays we're churchgoers and we're

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going. And I invite others that are in our group,

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hey, if they'd like to go, hey, why don't you

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come with us and see? And it's surprising that

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typically on most rallies or most events we go,

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we'll get at least one other couple to go with

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us. And so it opens the door and it gives them

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an opportunity to see that, hey. This is going

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to be something that's going to be beneficial

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in your life, where if we didn't have these cars,

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we wouldn't have these interactions with these

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other people. Earlier you mentioned that, I don't

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remember exactly what you said, but you said

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it's hard for people with a lot of stuff or nice

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cars to be good Christians or something along

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those lines. Why do you say that? Well, what

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happens is, it depends what your focus is in

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life. And so obviously when people have money,

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often their focus is money -focused. And so instead

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of doing always the right thing, and I don't

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know if the right thing would be called the godly

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choice, what it is is they look at how do they

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maximize the money that they have or money potential

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they can gain. And so instead of making what

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I would call the... The right choice, the Christian

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choice, the right values with ethics. What people

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will sometimes do is they will cut that short

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because they're looking to maximize their profit.

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And I'm not saying that even myself in the early

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days that I did everything that I'm proud of,

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every choice I made. Knowing what I know today,

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I certainly would have done things differently.

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That was my life journey, and we're all on a

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journey, and all you can do is gain wisdom and

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reflect back and say, hey, I'm going to do it

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different moving forward. So to answer your question,

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the biggest thing is if people, and if you want

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to know what your real focus is, look at what

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you spend your money on. And if you spend your

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money on helping others, If you spend your money

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on buying more toys for yourself, that's really

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where your focus is. And I think that if people

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just took a step back and looked at that, that

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would give them some perspective on life. Unfortunately,

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what happens is, especially when we're younger,

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we're more in survival mode. And in survival

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mode, we're just trying to make it day to day.

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When you get to be a certain age where you finally

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have... I've never made a car payment, and when

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I bought a house, I'm the type that pays it off,

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so I pay it off five years or less. If you can

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live debt -free, it allows you to take some perspective

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and see what's going on in the world and what

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is important in life and in the world and what

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is meaningless and what has meaning in your life.

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Yeah. What were some of those things that you

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said you would have done differently? So when

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we spoke earlier yesterday, I told you when I

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first came to Denver back in 1974, I got a job

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at a fiberglass place. And at the fiberglass

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place, we worked on Corvettes. And the cars that

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came in were typically the 1963 to 1967 Corvettes.

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Now, we did get some of the... The next generation,

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I think it's like Generation 3, but it was typically

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mostly those. And we put flares and all types

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of things. And because I was working there, and

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at the time I was 19, everyone that left their

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car overnight, I told you, all of us guys would

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take them out for a joyride. Certainly not the

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thing to do. Certainly not condoned. Certainly

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I knew better not to do that, but it was just

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some of those things you do, and when you reflect

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back, well, why did you do it? Well, it was fun,

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but I certainly wouldn't do that today. I'm sure

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that there's people out there, I don't know specifically,

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but I'm sure there's people out there I could

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have done a helping hand or done some things

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better when I interacted with them, and I didn't.

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Was there anything in regards to money? You made

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the incorrect choice, as you said, or you didn't

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make the right choice because you were thinking

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about money or stuff? Well, I do know because

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I'm a business owner and I've owned a number

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of businesses. One of the things I did looking

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today, I was always looking at myself first.

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And the way I managed money in the early days

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as a business owner, I paid myself first and

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then my employees. And so what that meant to

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me was their salary was based on the profits

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that was left over from mine. Looking at today,

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I probably would have done that a little differently.

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I probably would have started their salary, hey,

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here's what your value is, and later in life...

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before I retired, most of my employees were commission

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-based. And by having them commission -based,

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it meant that the amount of effort they put in

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was directly proportional to the amount of salary

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they were paid. And to me, I really think that

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lets people be in charge of their own destiny.

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And knowing what I know today, that's probably

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something I should have done earlier on than

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when I did. Yeah, yeah. You also said that you

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had a life that went a little bit too well, but

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it also started not going well from the onset.

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When you were 18, you got kicked out of your

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house. What was your initial reaction to getting

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kicked out in regards to your parents or in regards

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to the world? What was that like? Oh, wow. That

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was a long time ago. So I was kicked out at 18.

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I graduated high school, luckily. And so at the

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time, I was one of those types of people that

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actually looked. And like I told you earlier,

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I felt probably from the age of 15, certainly

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by the age of 16, I felt I could make. better

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decision than my parents and better decisions

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than a lot of other adults. And so I was always

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looking and analyzing some of the choices they'd

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make. And if I ever asked them, why did they

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make this choice? You know, they just, you know,

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shut me down, give me some, you know, shut up

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or some other excuse. But those are the type

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things you learn that, you know, hey, that helps

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you to understand some of the choices you make.

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But anyways, to answer your question, when I

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was kicked out of the house, I was told on a

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Wednesday to leave, and I left that Saturday,

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and I had about $200 of money in hand, cash money.

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Back then, people did have checking accounts.

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They certainly didn't have credit cards back

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then. It was cash money is what most people used.

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and checking accounts. Well, I had cash money,

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about $200 that I left home with, and I left

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home with a Mustang that I'd bought, a 1965 Mustang

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that I bought from a junkyard there in Maine.

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And I fixed that car up before I left, and it

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was my daily driver. It was a six -cylinder with

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a three -speed. Really a junker of a car, but,

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you know, when you're a kid, that's all I could

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afford. But it was a Mustang. But it was a Mustang.

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And like I told you, when you're back in that

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generation, what was important to guys was having

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a cool car. You know, you wanted something. Mine

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was a six -cylinder, so it wasn't that cool.

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But back in Maine, I never knew a Mustang had

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a V8 because everyone I ever saw there. We're

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only six -cylinder ones. So anyways, but when

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I was told to leave, and at first I thought,

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well, maybe they're kidding, but being the way

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I was brought up, if my dad would say something

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and you ever said anything back or tried to push

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back a little bit, either you get backhanded

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across the face, get punched in the chest, get

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punched in the shoulder, get kicked, one of those

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things. When he said that, I didn't say anything,

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but I started getting prepared. And when Saturday

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came, I sort of said, hey, I'm leaving, expecting

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like, well, maybe he's going to say no, or, you

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know, I wasn't really that serious about this.

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But that wasn't the case. So I drove off, and

00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:17.340
we lived in northern Maine. Before we got to

00:16:17.340 --> 00:16:20.960
Maine, my... My dad was in the military. We lived

00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:24.360
in Okinawa, and I graduated high school in Okinawa

00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:28.799
in 1973. After I graduated high school, my dad

00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:32.440
got stationed in northern Maine, Loring Air Force

00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:39.019
Base. Very, very cold place to live. Not a great

00:16:39.019 --> 00:16:42.840
place for families, but, you know, it is what

00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:48.019
it is. And so when I left, As I'm driving away

00:16:48.019 --> 00:16:51.100
that day, I was crying, and I was thinking, wow,

00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:55.980
why is these things happening to me? But it's

00:16:55.980 --> 00:16:59.399
the way life was, and there wasn't any cell phones.

00:17:00.940 --> 00:17:03.159
I did have a girlfriend when I was in high school,

00:17:03.259 --> 00:17:06.259
and I felt we were pretty serious. At the time,

00:17:06.259 --> 00:17:08.140
we said we loved each other and all the rest

00:17:08.140 --> 00:17:12.660
of that. And we're married, and we'll be married

00:17:12.660 --> 00:17:17.349
almost 50 years coming up. segue into that story.

00:17:17.549 --> 00:17:20.890
So I left home, drove in my car, drove out to

00:17:20.890 --> 00:17:23.150
see my girlfriend. At the time, her folks got

00:17:23.150 --> 00:17:27.329
stationed in Riverside, California, which is

00:17:27.329 --> 00:17:31.190
a lot nicer than luring Air Force Base in Maine.

00:17:31.710 --> 00:17:38.990
I stayed with her a month, almost 30 days, and

00:17:38.990 --> 00:17:43.890
her parents wanted us to get married. And they

00:17:43.890 --> 00:17:46.289
weren't really pressuring us really bad, but

00:17:46.289 --> 00:17:48.569
they kept throwing the hints out. What's your

00:17:48.569 --> 00:17:51.569
plans? What's your idea? And when you have your

00:17:51.569 --> 00:17:56.029
girlfriend with you, it's really hard because

00:17:56.029 --> 00:17:58.970
you're comfortable. It's really hard to do the

00:17:58.970 --> 00:18:02.829
things you know you need to do. And so at that

00:18:02.829 --> 00:18:05.470
point, I knew I needed to leave, and I needed

00:18:05.470 --> 00:18:08.950
to leave because I just couldn't stay there.

00:18:09.470 --> 00:18:12.049
And live off of them. That was the way I was

00:18:12.049 --> 00:18:15.329
born. And the nice thing about being there was,

00:18:15.490 --> 00:18:17.650
you know, your girlfriend's doing your laundry.

00:18:17.750 --> 00:18:20.849
And, you know, you're getting fed. And you don't

00:18:20.849 --> 00:18:23.490
have to worry about any of that. When I drove

00:18:23.490 --> 00:18:27.509
from Maine out to California, you drive through

00:18:27.509 --> 00:18:29.710
the day. Heaven forbid you don't want to drive

00:18:29.710 --> 00:18:31.609
at night. Something might break down on your

00:18:31.609 --> 00:18:35.490
car and you can't see. So I would pull over and

00:18:35.490 --> 00:18:39.049
sleep in my car on the side of the road. on an

00:18:39.049 --> 00:18:42.750
off -ramp or an on -ramp or on some of the roads

00:18:42.750 --> 00:18:46.029
back east, the median between the interstate

00:18:46.029 --> 00:18:49.190
was really wide. I would just pull into the median

00:18:49.190 --> 00:18:54.390
and sleep in my car back then. So, like I said,

00:18:54.549 --> 00:18:58.089
it was a different time. And you'd stop at a

00:18:58.089 --> 00:19:02.559
gas station when you got gas. oil and water and

00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:05.660
you check your tire pressures and you'd always

00:19:05.660 --> 00:19:08.019
check the map and see about how close you were

00:19:08.019 --> 00:19:10.839
on target and sometimes you know it got a little

00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:13.619
off track but you sort of look at a paper map

00:19:13.619 --> 00:19:16.180
and some gas stations back then actually gave

00:19:16.180 --> 00:19:18.740
you the paper maps if i had to buy one i never

00:19:18.740 --> 00:19:21.420
did it was an expense i didn't want to spend

00:19:21.420 --> 00:19:26.289
it on so So I left my girlfriend's house. That

00:19:26.289 --> 00:19:29.009
was Joan, who's my wife. And like I said, we've

00:19:29.009 --> 00:19:32.710
been married almost 50 years. And I headed back

00:19:32.710 --> 00:19:36.289
east. I had a friend who lived next door to me

00:19:36.289 --> 00:19:39.950
when I lived in Okinawa. And his name was Rob.

00:19:40.690 --> 00:19:43.990
And he lived in Colorado Springs. So I thought,

00:19:44.089 --> 00:19:46.589
hey, I'm going to come out to visit him. And

00:19:46.589 --> 00:19:48.750
maybe we'll get an apartment or a place together.

00:19:49.710 --> 00:19:53.640
And which is surprising about this is, We all

00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:56.180
left at about the same time. Your tour of duty

00:19:56.180 --> 00:19:59.140
in Okinawa is about three years, is for a military

00:19:59.140 --> 00:20:01.759
guy. So every three years we were moving as a

00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:07.019
family. And when we came to, when I went to my

00:20:07.019 --> 00:20:09.619
friend's house, obviously no cell phone so you

00:20:09.619 --> 00:20:12.920
don't call. You just knock on the door. You just

00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:18.160
knock on the door, exactly. It was, people don't

00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:21.109
realize. How convenient your cell phone is. You

00:20:21.109 --> 00:20:24.369
text, hey, I'll be there in five minutes. That

00:20:24.369 --> 00:20:26.609
isn't the way it was. You would send a letter.

00:20:26.789 --> 00:20:31.410
They would get it maybe a week later. And I don't

00:20:31.410 --> 00:20:33.210
even remember if I sent him a letter. Obviously,

00:20:33.210 --> 00:20:36.250
I got his address somehow, so we must have corresponded

00:20:36.250 --> 00:20:41.009
by letter some way. But I did have his address.

00:20:41.369 --> 00:20:45.690
And so I drove from Riverside, California, all

00:20:45.690 --> 00:20:48.789
the way to Colorado Springs. And I did have his

00:20:48.789 --> 00:20:53.170
phone number. And so when I got to Colorado Springs,

00:20:53.470 --> 00:20:56.450
I stop at gas stations and get directions on

00:20:56.450 --> 00:20:58.910
where this address is and how to get there, look

00:20:58.910 --> 00:21:03.450
on a map. And I show up at his house, bang on

00:21:03.450 --> 00:21:08.809
his door, and it's like, hey, I'm here. And his

00:21:08.809 --> 00:21:11.069
parents were like, well, geez, what are you doing

00:21:11.069 --> 00:21:13.839
here? And this was probably about 11 o 'clock

00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:16.119
in the morning is what I remember. And I was

00:21:16.119 --> 00:21:17.960
thinking as I was driving there, oh, they're

00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:20.000
going to invite me to lunch and then we'll talk.

00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:24.180
And when her parents said that, it was like,

00:21:24.299 --> 00:21:28.140
wow. So what ended up for me, I think I stayed

00:21:28.140 --> 00:21:31.980
maybe 15 minutes after driving that far. You

00:21:31.980 --> 00:21:34.819
know, maybe I think it took me two or three days

00:21:34.819 --> 00:21:38.059
from Riverside, California to get there. I got

00:21:38.059 --> 00:21:39.960
back in my car and I said, geez, where should

00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:43.000
I go? And that's why I went to Denver because

00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:45.119
I thought, hey, I could get some opportunities

00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:52.319
in Denver. And then in Denver, what I did was

00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:54.920
is, you know, still staying in my car because

00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:57.059
that's all I really knew and had. That was my

00:21:57.059 --> 00:22:00.359
property. And every worldly possession I owned

00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:02.960
at that point was in the trunk of my car because

00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:04.680
that was the only thing in my car that locked.

00:22:06.269 --> 00:22:08.650
I could lock them on the inside if I was sitting

00:22:08.650 --> 00:22:10.549
inside, but if I was outside, I couldn't lock

00:22:10.549 --> 00:22:13.190
the inside of my doors because my key didn't

00:22:13.190 --> 00:22:16.069
work on the outside. It's just the way things

00:22:16.069 --> 00:22:19.930
were back then. And so what I went ahead and

00:22:19.930 --> 00:22:24.009
did is when I was there in Denver, the sort of

00:22:24.009 --> 00:22:29.369
industrial area was off about Santa Fe to Federal,

00:22:29.549 --> 00:22:32.750
from about Dartmouth to maybe Hampton. And that

00:22:32.750 --> 00:22:38.180
area was heavy. I will say manual labor type

00:22:38.180 --> 00:22:42.680
work. And so I stopped at a shop. I just walked

00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:44.900
in. I says, hey, are you looking for any help?

00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:48.259
I'm looking for a job. And the guy at the place

00:22:48.259 --> 00:22:50.240
said, well, hey, what can you do? I says, well,

00:22:50.299 --> 00:22:54.960
geez, whatever you need me to. Excuse me. And

00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:58.960
so I said, hey, I'm sure I can, whatever. And

00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:01.619
so they had me start on the night shift that

00:23:01.619 --> 00:23:05.289
day. And I was making, like, aluminum parts.

00:23:05.410 --> 00:23:10.230
So it was like you pour melted aluminum into

00:23:10.230 --> 00:23:16.309
a mold, and then it would harden and kick it

00:23:16.309 --> 00:23:18.490
out, and then you trim the flash off, put it

00:23:18.490 --> 00:23:21.269
in a box. And it was really hot. So this was

00:23:21.269 --> 00:23:27.809
probably now July, August, and it was hot even

00:23:27.809 --> 00:23:30.049
at night to do that. So I was thinking, how do

00:23:30.049 --> 00:23:32.589
the people do this through the day? So after

00:23:32.589 --> 00:23:35.430
I was doing that job a couple days, because it

00:23:35.430 --> 00:23:37.829
was at night, to the day I was looking for other

00:23:37.829 --> 00:23:41.869
jobs. And so what I found was I was driving down

00:23:41.869 --> 00:23:45.150
Colfax, and Colfax was a busy street even then

00:23:45.150 --> 00:23:49.690
here in the Denver area. There was a car place,

00:23:49.930 --> 00:23:54.490
and it was called Allied Fiberglass. And so I

00:23:54.490 --> 00:23:58.430
pulled up there with my Mustang, and I went inside,

00:23:58.630 --> 00:24:00.150
and they had a bunch of Corvettes around the

00:24:00.150 --> 00:24:03.849
place. And I asked them if they were hiring or

00:24:03.849 --> 00:24:08.710
if they needed any help. And they told me, because

00:24:08.710 --> 00:24:12.190
there was quite a few 63 to 67 Corvettes in the

00:24:12.190 --> 00:24:14.809
area. It was a pretty big place. And they said,

00:24:14.890 --> 00:24:17.349
hey, if I could fix the electric headlights where

00:24:17.349 --> 00:24:19.930
the headlights rocker, when you turn the headlights

00:24:19.930 --> 00:24:22.829
on, they rocker up and come on as opposed to

00:24:22.829 --> 00:24:27.650
into the body. They said I'd have a job. So they

00:24:27.650 --> 00:24:29.630
didn't offer me any money at the time. It was

00:24:29.630 --> 00:24:31.740
just, hey, if you can do this, hey, well. Well,

00:24:31.779 --> 00:24:34.779
why are you? So I went ahead and I had a few

00:24:34.779 --> 00:24:38.799
tools. I don't know. They might call them clubs

00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:40.839
today, but, you know, they were called tools

00:24:40.839 --> 00:24:44.019
to me back then. And they had some tools in the

00:24:44.019 --> 00:24:46.680
shop. And so I looked at my first Corvette. I

00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:48.140
don't remember what year it was, but I know it

00:24:48.140 --> 00:24:51.119
was a 63 to 67. Could have been, you know, any

00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:53.259
one of those years. All the headlights worked

00:24:53.259 --> 00:24:56.119
the same. And so after a couple hours, I had

00:24:56.119 --> 00:24:59.039
taken the headlight out. I saw it's an electric

00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:01.200
motor. You know, they get water in them, they

00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:04.240
corrode a little bit. And, you know, with a piece

00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:06.539
of like emery cloth, clean up the armature on

00:25:06.539 --> 00:25:09.140
them. It wasn't really that big a deal once you

00:25:09.140 --> 00:25:14.059
sort of saw how it works. And my car had a generator

00:25:14.059 --> 00:25:17.759
in it. It was an early 65 Mustang, had a generator.

00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:20.599
And I'd rebuilt the generator in it, and it was

00:25:20.599 --> 00:25:23.950
essentially the same type of... electrical device

00:25:23.950 --> 00:25:28.849
as those electric headlights and so it was really

00:25:28.849 --> 00:25:30.990
pretty easy once I got it apart I spent about

00:25:30.990 --> 00:25:34.170
two hours I got it working I showed them they

00:25:34.170 --> 00:25:39.309
were amazed and they said hey I was hired now

00:25:39.309 --> 00:25:45.440
back then this was 1974 they were paying me I

00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:47.579
don't even know if I got $2 an hour. I think

00:25:47.579 --> 00:25:50.160
it was $1 .60, but it might have been $2 an hour.

00:25:50.460 --> 00:25:52.619
And so I don't know what they were charging for

00:25:52.619 --> 00:25:55.599
my work. But anyways, that's what I was getting

00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:58.940
paid. And I did work on Corvettes, and it was

00:25:58.940 --> 00:26:02.319
fun. As a young guy, all those Corvettes that

00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:04.519
I worked on, if I remember, were all manual.

00:26:04.700 --> 00:26:07.920
They were all four -speed cars. And we put fender

00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:10.579
flares on them. We did all types of little different

00:26:10.579 --> 00:26:15.039
mechanical things. The cars were really pretty

00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:20.759
basic back then. So anyways, I mean, I could

00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:22.720
go a little further and deep on that if you're

00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:24.940
mechanically, you know, want to know more. But

00:26:24.940 --> 00:26:27.740
essentially, that was my job. And I worked there

00:26:27.740 --> 00:26:31.359
for a number of years. So that was where that

00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:36.119
was. Yeah. And then at some point during your

00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:39.859
time in Denver. You got a phone call. Yeah. So

00:26:39.859 --> 00:26:42.400
one thing to note, when I was working at that

00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:44.180
fiberglass place, people might want to know,

00:26:44.259 --> 00:26:47.240
well, where'd you live? Well, I still lived in

00:26:47.240 --> 00:26:50.500
my car. And what I did was, is just really quickly,

00:26:50.660 --> 00:26:55.480
through the day, I would work on the cars. And

00:26:55.480 --> 00:26:58.099
at night, after work, or if they had extra hours

00:26:58.099 --> 00:27:00.640
that I could work, I would actually stay and

00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:02.420
I would work later because I could make a little

00:27:02.420 --> 00:27:04.519
more money. But then I would go to either City

00:27:04.519 --> 00:27:07.880
Park, Cheeseman Park, Washington Park, and I'd

00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:09.799
just park my car on the side of the road there.

00:27:10.059 --> 00:27:12.839
And I would sleep in my car. And then in the

00:27:12.839 --> 00:27:16.000
morning, what I would do is I would run down

00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:21.819
off Colorado Boulevard at about just past I -70,

00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:26.170
probably at about... 60th Avenue, I'll say, 58th

00:27:26.170 --> 00:27:29.509
or 60th, there was a hotel on the west side of

00:27:29.509 --> 00:27:31.750
the street. And back then, they didn't use credit

00:27:31.750 --> 00:27:34.789
cards to open and close the doors. You actually

00:27:34.789 --> 00:27:37.329
had to have a key. And I would just pull up,

00:27:37.390 --> 00:27:39.849
and if a door was open, I'd just run in and take

00:27:39.849 --> 00:27:42.670
a shower. And most of the time, there was a dry

00:27:42.670 --> 00:27:46.869
towel, but sometimes there wasn't. And it was

00:27:46.869 --> 00:27:51.539
just... Back then, I was young, and... It was

00:27:51.539 --> 00:27:53.519
nice because they had a flush toilet and all

00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:57.519
the rest of that stuff. And it was just what

00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:00.339
you did. And they never gave me any grief about

00:28:00.339 --> 00:28:02.400
it. You know, they'd always have like a bar of

00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:04.119
soap, you know, one of those little small ones

00:28:04.119 --> 00:28:08.460
back then. And people don't believe it, but that's

00:28:08.460 --> 00:28:11.880
how it was back then. And the way I found that

00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:15.920
hotel was when I was working at the aluminum

00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:20.940
shop, I would go to... because I worked at night,

00:28:21.059 --> 00:28:23.779
to the day it gave me time. And so when I drive

00:28:23.779 --> 00:28:26.720
around in my car, I found that hotel. I saw a

00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:28.640
couple others, but that one really worked well.

00:28:29.220 --> 00:28:34.440
And I used that for probably... Well over a month,

00:28:34.500 --> 00:28:36.660
maybe close to two months. So anyways, the incident

00:28:36.660 --> 00:28:39.759
you're talking about, I'd probably been working

00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:43.220
at that fiberglass place for a few months. They

00:28:43.220 --> 00:28:44.980
liked me there because I was one of those hardworking

00:28:44.980 --> 00:28:47.640
guys, and if they needed anything extra done,

00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:50.339
I was always the one to do it because I was looking

00:28:50.339 --> 00:28:53.660
to make extra money because I wanted to move

00:28:53.660 --> 00:28:55.920
into some place, an apartment, because I knew

00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:58.119
in the wintertime when it gets cold, it's going

00:28:58.119 --> 00:29:02.000
to be a little tough to sleep in my car. So I

00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:04.819
just got in an apartment about a week later,

00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:07.319
and it was a one -bedroom, and they called it

00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:10.099
furnished. And furnished meant that it had a

00:29:10.099 --> 00:29:12.920
couch and maybe a chair or maybe a dining table

00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:16.019
in it. Furnished didn't mean it had a bed. So

00:29:16.019 --> 00:29:18.960
I had a sleeping bag because I was in the Boy

00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:20.920
Scouts from way back when, and so that's what

00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:24.319
I used as my bed at that time. There was no dressers

00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:26.359
or anything in that place. But anyways, I got

00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:29.450
a phone call. On that phone call, it was from

00:29:29.450 --> 00:29:34.009
the Red Cross, and I'd never had a phone call

00:29:34.009 --> 00:29:37.170
at work. So when the owners came and said, Bob,

00:29:37.210 --> 00:29:38.690
you have a phone call, I'm thinking like, what?

00:29:38.829 --> 00:29:42.150
Who even knows I work here? I'd certainly never

00:29:42.150 --> 00:29:44.789
given the phone number out because who's going

00:29:44.789 --> 00:29:47.829
to call me? But I answered the phone, and they

00:29:47.829 --> 00:29:51.829
asked to identify myself, which I did. And then

00:29:51.829 --> 00:29:57.599
they said, They said they were the Red Cross,

00:29:57.680 --> 00:29:59.460
and they said, hey, there was an accident in

00:29:59.460 --> 00:30:01.700
my family. I don't remember all the specifics,

00:30:01.779 --> 00:30:04.700
but I do know the key parts they told me. There

00:30:04.700 --> 00:30:06.440
was a number of people in my family that had

00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:11.880
died, and that I needed to get back to Maine

00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:16.099
to help sort through some of the issues. I realized

00:30:16.099 --> 00:30:19.880
I was just a kid. I didn't shave. I didn't have

00:30:19.880 --> 00:30:26.980
hair. You know, I was just, I cut my own hair

00:30:26.980 --> 00:30:28.880
with a pair of scissors. You know, I didn't,

00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:30.660
you know, I didn't, certainly didn't go to a

00:30:30.660 --> 00:30:32.720
barbershop or any of that. Do you still do that?

00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:37.380
No, I go to Greg Clips or my wife. If it gets

00:30:37.380 --> 00:30:41.940
too messy, I'll have her trim it. So anyways,

00:30:42.259 --> 00:30:44.799
when I was talking to them on the phone, they

00:30:44.799 --> 00:30:46.579
identified themselves as Red Cross, that there

00:30:46.579 --> 00:30:49.160
was this tragic accident or tragic problem that

00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:52.220
had happened back in Maine. I had no idea what

00:30:52.220 --> 00:30:55.160
it was. I hadn't had any communication with any

00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:59.680
of my family since I had left back in, we'll

00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:04.480
say, June 1st. And now this is already, this

00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:12.799
is October, I'll say this is. I said, well, geez,

00:31:12.920 --> 00:31:15.960
I don't have any money. I can't drive back. Because

00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:20.740
back then, the speed limit wasn't 75 where you

00:31:20.740 --> 00:31:25.500
could go 85 or 90. The speed limit was 55. And

00:31:25.500 --> 00:31:28.460
the cars back then, part of the reason why the

00:31:28.460 --> 00:31:30.599
speed limit was 55, that was about as fast as

00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:34.259
those. old cars would go. They just didn't have,

00:31:34.299 --> 00:31:37.059
you know, the reliability or the power to go

00:31:37.059 --> 00:31:40.740
a lot faster. Anyways, they said that they'd

00:31:40.740 --> 00:31:44.680
be more than happy, excuse me, to supply me a

00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:49.059
one -way plane ticket to Maine. And at the time,

00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:51.460
I was thinking, wow, one -way plane ticket, that

00:31:51.460 --> 00:31:53.079
sounds great, but how the heck am I going to

00:31:53.079 --> 00:31:55.960
get back? And then I think, what about my job

00:31:55.960 --> 00:31:58.099
here? I got a good thing going. I certainly don't

00:31:58.099 --> 00:32:00.160
want to mess that up. So I said, let me just

00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:02.099
take a minute here and let me see what I can

00:32:02.099 --> 00:32:05.279
find out. So I set the phone down. I talked to

00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:07.579
the owners. And the owners, I think, were Monty

00:32:07.579 --> 00:32:12.640
and Mark. They were two brothers. They were older

00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:15.059
than me, probably twice my age. Maybe they were

00:32:15.059 --> 00:32:19.279
30 and I was, you know, 19 at the time. And I

00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:20.960
asked them, I says, hey, could I be gone for

00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:23.519
a couple weeks for this? And they said, sure,

00:32:23.619 --> 00:32:26.099
take the time you need. And so they got back

00:32:26.099 --> 00:32:30.059
on the phone and I said, hey, my work here says

00:32:30.059 --> 00:32:34.359
it's going to be all right. Let me go ahead and

00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:37.039
take you up on that offer for a free ticket.

00:32:37.859 --> 00:32:41.220
And they said, I'm not 100 % sure, but I believe

00:32:41.220 --> 00:32:44.529
they said something to the effect. Just go to

00:32:44.529 --> 00:32:47.049
the airport, and it was Stapleton is what the

00:32:47.049 --> 00:32:51.650
one off about 35th and Quebec. Go to the airport,

00:32:51.809 --> 00:32:55.410
and at the TWA ticket counter, you'll have a

00:32:55.410 --> 00:32:57.849
ticket for you. And I think it was TWA. I'm not

00:32:57.849 --> 00:33:02.549
100 % sure, but I believe it was. And so right

00:33:02.549 --> 00:33:06.190
away, the clothes I was wearing, I just got in

00:33:06.190 --> 00:33:10.299
my car and left. and drove to the airport without

00:33:10.299 --> 00:33:13.220
a bag, without anything. I didn't go home, didn't

00:33:13.220 --> 00:33:15.599
anything. And it should be interesting to note,

00:33:15.740 --> 00:33:18.920
when I was growing up, I never learned how to

00:33:18.920 --> 00:33:21.660
do laundry, so I never did. What I would do is

00:33:21.660 --> 00:33:25.460
about once every few weeks, I'd go to Goodwill,

00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:28.660
and I'd buy five pairs of pants and five shirts,

00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:32.500
and the pants were like a quarter each. And the

00:33:32.500 --> 00:33:35.640
shirts were, I don't know, 10 or 15 cents. And

00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:38.440
I wasn't too picky on what I'd buy, just as long

00:33:38.440 --> 00:33:40.960
as it was sort of fit. I sort of put them on.

00:33:41.019 --> 00:33:43.339
But the pants weren't jeans that they sold back

00:33:43.339 --> 00:33:46.059
then. They were all dress pants. You know, they,

00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:48.319
you know, maybe would have plaid suit pants,

00:33:48.519 --> 00:33:51.839
bell bottoms, whatever. And I used those. And

00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:54.019
I'd mix and match the shirts and the pants as

00:33:54.019 --> 00:33:56.779
long as I could for a number of weeks. And when

00:33:56.779 --> 00:33:59.740
they got too dirty, too croaty, too whatever,

00:33:59.960 --> 00:34:04.049
I just threw them out. And buy another set. And

00:34:04.049 --> 00:34:06.750
that's what I sort of did. And so obviously no

00:34:06.750 --> 00:34:09.190
socks, no underwear, no T -shirts, you know,

00:34:09.230 --> 00:34:12.469
because they didn't sell that stuff there. And

00:34:12.469 --> 00:34:15.570
so anyways, here it is. I was at work. I have

00:34:15.570 --> 00:34:19.730
my work clothes. I'll call it on. Go to the airport.

00:34:21.909 --> 00:34:24.030
When I got there, I don't remember what it was,

00:34:24.250 --> 00:34:26.829
you know, 1, 2 in the afternoon. The flight was

00:34:26.829 --> 00:34:29.269
for the next day. So I didn't go home. I just

00:34:29.269 --> 00:34:31.630
stayed the night at the airport in Stapleton.

00:34:32.210 --> 00:34:34.809
And the next day, caught the flight. We flew

00:34:34.809 --> 00:34:38.690
from, it was nonstop from Denver to Boston. And

00:34:38.690 --> 00:34:44.190
then at Boston, it was a propeller, a crop duster

00:34:44.190 --> 00:34:46.550
plane is what I call it. And there was a handful

00:34:46.550 --> 00:34:50.329
of us on it. And we flew from Boston to Portland.

00:34:51.659 --> 00:34:55.219
Maine. And so we got into Portland. I remember

00:34:55.219 --> 00:34:57.699
it was at night. And I'm thinking, how the heck

00:34:57.699 --> 00:35:02.519
am I going to get to my grandparents? They told

00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:04.800
me it was Lewiston, Maine is where I was going.

00:35:05.260 --> 00:35:07.260
And I did have the address to my grandparents.

00:35:08.139 --> 00:35:10.300
And I knew their phone number. But I'm thinking,

00:35:10.340 --> 00:35:13.760
what the heck am I going to do? Anyways, I get

00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:17.760
off the plane. And I walk out. And I see my mom's

00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:20.340
brother. His name was Ray. And he was there.

00:35:20.829 --> 00:35:23.469
And it's a really, really small airport. The

00:35:23.469 --> 00:35:26.030
airports back then aren't like today. You didn't

00:35:26.030 --> 00:35:30.630
have security. You could walk around. That airport

00:35:30.630 --> 00:35:35.190
was probably the size of my current house. There

00:35:35.190 --> 00:35:39.449
wasn't anything special there. You landed on

00:35:39.449 --> 00:35:42.590
the pavement and you got out and you walked on

00:35:42.590 --> 00:35:44.409
the pavement to a door. You could walk inside

00:35:44.409 --> 00:35:46.670
and then you're inside what looked like maybe

00:35:46.670 --> 00:35:52.960
a farmhouse. Anyways, he was there. And I said

00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:54.300
something to him, and he says, here, we need

00:35:54.300 --> 00:35:56.340
to go. So we went to my grandparents' house.

00:35:56.699 --> 00:35:59.460
And he talked to me a little bit about it on

00:35:59.460 --> 00:36:04.800
the way, and he said, what I recall him saying

00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:09.739
was is, my dad was dead, my grandparents had

00:36:09.739 --> 00:36:13.059
died, and my mom and my three brothers that were

00:36:13.059 --> 00:36:15.800
still at home were all in the hospital from gunshot

00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:20.610
wounds. I didn't really know everything that

00:36:20.610 --> 00:36:23.650
was going on. And, you know, at my age, 19 at

00:36:23.650 --> 00:36:27.150
the time, you know, what do we really know about

00:36:27.150 --> 00:36:30.210
life? So anyways, I get to my grandparents' house,

00:36:30.309 --> 00:36:34.309
and my mom had had a total of seven kids in her

00:36:34.309 --> 00:36:38.070
family. So her parents had seven kids. And all

00:36:38.070 --> 00:36:41.150
seven of them, all seven with the exception of

00:36:41.150 --> 00:36:45.429
my mom, they were all there. And they were all

00:36:45.429 --> 00:36:48.280
upset. And I'm trying to sort out what's going

00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:51.659
on. So anyways, what I found out was is when

00:36:51.659 --> 00:36:54.900
I was gone, when I'd been kicked out of the house,

00:36:54.980 --> 00:36:58.500
and I got to say that life was never simple for

00:36:58.500 --> 00:37:04.260
us in the military because having a military

00:37:04.260 --> 00:37:08.440
life, my dad felt he was the king of the house.

00:37:08.679 --> 00:37:13.590
And instead of us being children, we were more

00:37:13.590 --> 00:37:16.730
like his troops. And when he told us to do something,

00:37:16.789 --> 00:37:18.570
we were supposed to do it immediately. And if

00:37:18.570 --> 00:37:23.230
we didn't, we'd get some type of something painful

00:37:23.230 --> 00:37:26.269
happen to us. And it wasn't just for us, but

00:37:26.269 --> 00:37:28.989
it was also for my mom. And I remember when we

00:37:28.989 --> 00:37:31.429
were overseas in Okinawa, and I could drive a

00:37:31.429 --> 00:37:33.590
number of times, I'd take my mom to the hospital.

00:37:33.989 --> 00:37:36.750
But the military at the time didn't do anything

00:37:36.750 --> 00:37:39.869
about it, and there wasn't anything. about domestic

00:37:39.869 --> 00:37:42.949
violence or any of that that we have today. So

00:37:42.949 --> 00:37:45.650
those things are certainly better today, and

00:37:45.650 --> 00:37:48.469
those things wouldn't happen today. But anyways,

00:37:48.809 --> 00:37:51.030
what had happened was after I was kicked out

00:37:51.030 --> 00:37:57.309
of the house and left, my mom decided at a time

00:37:57.309 --> 00:38:00.230
when my dad was... out on tdy that was temporary

00:38:00.230 --> 00:38:03.170
duty he had to fly someplace and he was gone

00:38:03.170 --> 00:38:06.510
like for a month so she packed up herself and

00:38:06.510 --> 00:38:09.329
my three brothers and my three brothers was the

00:38:09.329 --> 00:38:11.969
one next younger than me he was two years younger

00:38:11.969 --> 00:38:16.449
the next one was four and the next one was close

00:38:16.449 --> 00:38:18.630
to 10 years younger than me i think 10 it was

00:38:18.630 --> 00:38:21.610
either 9 or 10 and she packed him and she moved

00:38:21.610 --> 00:38:24.449
into my grandparents and and Northern Maine,

00:38:24.570 --> 00:38:27.150
Loring to Lewiston. I should have looked this

00:38:27.150 --> 00:38:30.289
up, but it's probably 250 miles, maybe more,

00:38:30.469 --> 00:38:34.030
but it's quite a drive. And so I don't know how

00:38:34.030 --> 00:38:36.289
she did all that, but when I went to my grandparents'

00:38:36.570 --> 00:38:39.449
house, a lot of our personal effects were everywhere

00:38:39.449 --> 00:38:43.989
in the house. All the stuff that my parents had

00:38:43.989 --> 00:38:46.650
owned. And my mom took the things that she felt

00:38:46.650 --> 00:38:48.469
were hers and moved them to my grandparents'

00:38:48.730 --> 00:38:53.769
house. So my mom's siblings were understandably

00:38:53.769 --> 00:38:57.849
very upset. When you walk into my grandparents'

00:38:58.130 --> 00:39:01.570
house, you walk into the kitchen area, and what

00:39:01.570 --> 00:39:03.730
I remember was the kitchen carpet was tore up.

00:39:04.630 --> 00:39:07.630
The walls back then, a lot of people used wallpaper

00:39:07.630 --> 00:39:09.949
because the walls weren't finished the way they

00:39:09.949 --> 00:39:13.789
were, and the wallpaper was all tore down. You

00:39:13.789 --> 00:39:16.170
could see where some things had been broken and

00:39:16.170 --> 00:39:20.159
some things had been damaged in the house. Anyways,

00:39:20.420 --> 00:39:22.679
what I found out was because my mom had left

00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:25.539
and moved in with her grandparents, my dad, when

00:39:25.539 --> 00:39:28.320
he got home, he didn't like that or felt that,

00:39:28.380 --> 00:39:31.599
hey, the world had ended in the way he understood

00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:36.409
it. And so we had a couple of handguns. I don't

00:39:36.409 --> 00:39:37.869
know all the particulars because obviously I

00:39:37.869 --> 00:39:40.289
wasn't there. These are things I heard. Had a

00:39:40.289 --> 00:39:42.170
couple handguns, went to see my grandparents

00:39:42.170 --> 00:39:44.050
because that's where my mom and my brothers were.

00:39:44.630 --> 00:39:47.489
And when my grandparents opened the door, he

00:39:47.489 --> 00:39:49.570
came in and he shot and killed both of them.

00:39:50.369 --> 00:39:52.989
Well, then there was chaos in the house because

00:39:52.989 --> 00:39:55.369
my mom and my three brothers were there. So my

00:39:55.369 --> 00:39:57.610
dad went through the house and he shot my mom

00:39:57.610 --> 00:40:00.989
a few times, shot my brother just younger than

00:40:00.989 --> 00:40:03.639
me. The one who was two years younger, he shot

00:40:03.639 --> 00:40:06.300
him twice. My other two brothers each got shot

00:40:06.300 --> 00:40:12.980
once. And my mom left when my dad was chasing

00:40:12.980 --> 00:40:15.699
my brothers. My mom got up and ran to one of

00:40:15.699 --> 00:40:18.000
the neighbors. And the neighbor's house wasn't

00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:21.460
very close. It's not like they're 20, 40 feet

00:40:21.460 --> 00:40:25.000
or 50 feet from one door to the next. Because

00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:27.699
where they lived, it was more rural Maine. It

00:40:27.699 --> 00:40:31.150
was probably... I would say probably closer to

00:40:31.150 --> 00:40:36.250
maybe 100 yards. It was quite the distance to

00:40:36.250 --> 00:40:39.269
someone else's house. Anyways, my mom ran there,

00:40:39.469 --> 00:40:43.110
and my dad, when he saw her gone, he chased out

00:40:43.110 --> 00:40:47.309
after her. And when he chased out after her,

00:40:47.349 --> 00:40:48.730
when she got to the neighbor's, the neighbor

00:40:48.730 --> 00:40:51.010
came out to try to defuse or stop what was going

00:40:51.010 --> 00:40:53.630
on. My dad shot and killed that person also.

00:40:55.030 --> 00:40:58.599
That is what happened. And what I found out was

00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:01.000
that happened at least two or three days before

00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:04.659
I arrived. So it took the Red Cross a little

00:41:04.659 --> 00:41:07.699
bit of time to find me. My mom's brothers and

00:41:07.699 --> 00:41:10.960
sisters, I think there was only one of them that

00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:12.699
lived still in Maine. All the rest had moved

00:41:12.699 --> 00:41:15.820
out of state. But all of them were there. All

00:41:15.820 --> 00:41:18.139
of them had set themselves up in my grandparents'

00:41:18.420 --> 00:41:21.059
house. And because they had lived there as kids,

00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:25.929
they all had their rooms again. And what they

00:41:25.929 --> 00:41:27.969
had done in their rooms that I noticed was they

00:41:27.969 --> 00:41:30.590
had walked around the house and saw a lot of

00:41:30.590 --> 00:41:33.150
my mom's things, and they had picked up and put

00:41:33.150 --> 00:41:37.550
them in their rooms. I'm speculating that. It

00:41:37.550 --> 00:41:39.389
could have been my mom had decorated the house,

00:41:39.449 --> 00:41:41.690
but I sort of doubt it. I sort of think they

00:41:41.690 --> 00:41:43.469
had picked that up and sort of figured it was

00:41:43.469 --> 00:41:47.210
things they were going to take. So I see this,

00:41:47.210 --> 00:41:50.570
and I'm like, wow, what is really going on? And

00:41:50.570 --> 00:41:52.690
I find out my mom and my three brothers are at

00:41:52.690 --> 00:41:57.400
a hospital. And I'm told that my dad is at the

00:41:57.400 --> 00:41:59.800
coroner's office and I need to make some decisions.

00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:02.639
And my mom was in intensive care and so was my

00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:05.260
brother just younger than me. My other two brothers,

00:42:05.539 --> 00:42:08.179
because they'd just been shot once and their

00:42:08.179 --> 00:42:13.900
wounds weren't that severe, they were okay and

00:42:13.900 --> 00:42:16.179
they probably could have left the hospital, but

00:42:16.179 --> 00:42:19.119
who's going to take care of them? And so it's

00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:21.039
nighttime and I'm trying to think, oh my God,

00:42:21.099 --> 00:42:23.039
what type of a mess am I in? How am I going to

00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:26.170
get around? And so I look over at my mom's brother.

00:42:26.829 --> 00:42:32.769
And so at the time I was 19, so he was probably

00:42:32.769 --> 00:42:37.389
40, maybe 41. And I said to him, hey, that's

00:42:37.389 --> 00:42:40.070
my mom's car. I want the keys to it because that's

00:42:40.070 --> 00:42:41.550
going to be my car. And if you want to use it,

00:42:41.550 --> 00:42:44.150
you have to ask me. And it was a little bit of

00:42:44.150 --> 00:42:48.710
a power struggle at the time. And they did give

00:42:48.710 --> 00:42:50.449
me a lot of pushback, but I got the keys from

00:42:50.449 --> 00:42:52.710
him. And I says, if you need to use it, you need

00:42:52.710 --> 00:42:59.460
to come ask me. And so I went to like a room

00:42:59.460 --> 00:43:04.699
in the house where my mom had been. And now I'm

00:43:04.699 --> 00:43:06.840
trying to figure out what I'm going to do. But

00:43:06.840 --> 00:43:10.019
I had to get with the coroner. Luckily, there

00:43:10.019 --> 00:43:14.940
was two funeral homes. close in that town so

00:43:14.940 --> 00:43:17.699
one of them had my grandparents and a neighbor

00:43:17.699 --> 00:43:21.440
in that was that deceased and so it just made

00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:23.400
sense my dad went to the other one it was further

00:43:23.400 --> 00:43:27.320
away but it just made sense that you know from

00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:30.579
a small town and as horrific as it was so I had

00:43:30.579 --> 00:43:34.320
to do that I was then, the next morning when

00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:36.199
I got up, I was looking, where's my dad's car?

00:43:36.760 --> 00:43:40.340
My mom had a Pontiac station wagon, and my dad,

00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:43.440
and it was an older one, so this is 1974, and

00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:47.760
her car was a 1964 Pontiac station wagon. And

00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:53.869
my dad's car was a 1972 Plymouth Duster. So not

00:43:53.869 --> 00:43:56.010
a great car either, but it was what they had.

00:43:56.289 --> 00:43:58.829
And so I was looking for it. Didn't see it. My

00:43:58.829 --> 00:44:01.150
dad and I have the same first name and last name.

00:44:01.210 --> 00:44:05.309
Our middle name is different. And so I was looking

00:44:05.309 --> 00:44:08.210
around. I was told that I hadn't talked to any

00:44:08.210 --> 00:44:10.769
of his family yet because my mom and dad had

00:44:10.769 --> 00:44:12.309
gone to high school together and they were high

00:44:12.309 --> 00:44:15.329
school sweethearts and gotten married. My dad's

00:44:15.329 --> 00:44:19.039
family was also from. Lewiston, Maine. His mom

00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:21.940
still lived in town. His dad was already deceased.

00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:26.519
And he had two sisters. One of the sisters was

00:44:26.519 --> 00:44:28.519
still living in town. The other sister was living

00:44:28.519 --> 00:44:32.340
in New York and she had already come to town.

00:44:32.519 --> 00:44:34.980
His brother was in the military and he was already

00:44:34.980 --> 00:44:38.860
back in town also. So I found out my dad's car

00:44:38.860 --> 00:44:42.019
was over at his mom's house. So I call his mom

00:44:42.019 --> 00:44:43.519
and I said, hey, I want to come over and pick

00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:47.179
up. And I told her on the phone, my car. And

00:44:47.179 --> 00:44:49.980
she said it was her son's car. And I said, hey,

00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:53.760
listen, that car has my name. And in Maine, it's

00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:56.139
not a title state, so your car doesn't have a

00:44:56.139 --> 00:44:59.280
title. It's just based on the registration. And

00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:01.300
I still had my Maine driver's license. I never

00:45:01.300 --> 00:45:03.619
changed that to a Colorado one when I was here.

00:45:04.719 --> 00:45:06.440
So I said, hey, if I need to, I'm going to call

00:45:06.440 --> 00:45:09.980
the police. And they gave me some pushback. But

00:45:09.980 --> 00:45:12.059
anyways, long story short, I did call the police.

00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:14.079
I did say, hey, I want to go over and pick up

00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:18.210
my car. It was stolen. Obviously, everyone knew

00:45:18.210 --> 00:45:23.469
what was going on. So my dad's mom told me if

00:45:23.469 --> 00:45:27.849
I brought her his ring, his family ring, that

00:45:27.849 --> 00:45:30.630
I guess it was one his dad gave him, and I never

00:45:30.630 --> 00:45:34.730
knew this, that she would be okay. And I did

00:45:34.730 --> 00:45:37.750
talk to, I didn't talk to his brother, but I

00:45:37.750 --> 00:45:42.389
did talk to his sisters. And it was pretty sad

00:45:42.389 --> 00:45:44.269
because they were crying and all the rest of

00:45:44.269 --> 00:45:48.170
that. Here it is. I'm a 19 -year -old kid. Can't

00:45:48.170 --> 00:45:50.389
really take care of myself, and I'm trying to

00:45:50.389 --> 00:45:53.309
work through these things. Anyways, what I did

00:45:53.309 --> 00:45:56.869
is went over. I had my mom's brother drive me

00:45:56.869 --> 00:46:03.309
over in my mom's car. Went in myself. I gave

00:46:03.309 --> 00:46:07.250
my grandma on my dad's side his ring because

00:46:07.250 --> 00:46:10.190
I went and picked that up from the coroner and

00:46:10.190 --> 00:46:18.000
drove off in his car. I went back to my grandma's

00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:23.239
house that my mom was living in. And at the time,

00:46:23.320 --> 00:46:27.079
had I had a few dollars or if someone helped

00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:29.099
me or things would have been different, I probably

00:46:29.099 --> 00:46:31.019
would have stayed in a hotel just to be out from

00:46:31.019 --> 00:46:34.360
under all the stress and what was going on over

00:46:34.360 --> 00:46:43.820
there. But anyways, so at my dad's... My sister's

00:46:43.820 --> 00:46:45.659
brother and his mom said they wanted an open

00:46:45.659 --> 00:46:49.780
casket. And that was really pretty tough because

00:46:49.780 --> 00:46:52.099
my dad, when he killed himself, he didn't shoot

00:46:52.099 --> 00:46:54.119
himself in the heart. He shot himself in the

00:46:54.119 --> 00:46:59.719
side of his face. And when I went to, even though

00:46:59.719 --> 00:47:03.699
the police knew who they were, I still had to

00:47:03.699 --> 00:47:08.320
identify the body. And that was, it was, you

00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:11.489
know, it was, it's. Still scary thinking about

00:47:11.489 --> 00:47:15.769
how that was even today. It's not like they show

00:47:15.769 --> 00:47:19.730
it on TV is all I'll say. And so I went ahead

00:47:19.730 --> 00:47:23.389
and when he was at the funeral home and I told

00:47:23.389 --> 00:47:27.250
the staff there, I never realized they're more

00:47:27.250 --> 00:47:30.170
artists because they do the hair, they do the

00:47:30.170 --> 00:47:35.309
makeup, and they reconstructed his face essentially.

00:47:35.610 --> 00:47:39.360
I had to pick out a nose and an ear. They wanted

00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:42.119
some pictures. Luckily, my mom had a few pictures

00:47:42.119 --> 00:47:45.880
around our house. Pictures, another thing people

00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:48.219
don't realize, everyone probably has a thousand

00:47:48.219 --> 00:47:50.619
pictures of themselves and all their family on

00:47:50.619 --> 00:47:53.280
their phones. That wasn't the way it was back

00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:57.300
then. You know, you didn't develop all your pictures

00:47:57.300 --> 00:48:00.780
because it was expensive to do. If you took color

00:48:00.780 --> 00:48:05.800
pictures, you might have had the negatives done,

00:48:05.980 --> 00:48:08.039
and then you'd look through the negative of what.

00:48:08.250 --> 00:48:10.650
picture you thought was worth printing and then

00:48:10.650 --> 00:48:13.670
out of a roll of 36 that you took a year to to

00:48:13.670 --> 00:48:17.750
take 36 pictures you might print five because

00:48:17.750 --> 00:48:20.730
it was because it was expensive to do wasn't

00:48:20.730 --> 00:48:23.070
like it is today where it's like 10 cents a print

00:48:23.070 --> 00:48:27.230
or something uh anyways i took some pictures

00:48:27.230 --> 00:48:31.230
went down worked with him on trying to pick what

00:48:31.230 --> 00:48:36.869
parts would work on my dad's face and We had

00:48:36.869 --> 00:48:39.869
an open casket for his family because his family

00:48:39.869 --> 00:48:42.610
wanted it. We picked the funeral dates, different

00:48:42.610 --> 00:48:46.510
from my mom's parents, were from a Catholic family.

00:48:46.730 --> 00:48:50.710
Both families went to the same church, so they

00:48:50.710 --> 00:48:54.070
had the rosary service, the funeral. Obviously,

00:48:54.070 --> 00:48:58.070
my mom's family, the church was overflowing,

00:48:58.070 --> 00:49:01.809
was packed. At my dad's, it was not the same

00:49:01.809 --> 00:49:06.960
experience. I went to both. My mom was in the

00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:11.519
hospital probably close to two weeks because

00:49:11.519 --> 00:49:15.320
my one brother was still in intensive care, the

00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:18.500
one that was just younger than me. My other two

00:49:18.500 --> 00:49:21.760
brothers, even though they could leave the hospital,

00:49:21.940 --> 00:49:25.340
who was going to take care of them? And so the

00:49:25.340 --> 00:49:28.079
hospital wanted them out, but I told them there

00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:33.179
was no way I could take care of them. Like I

00:49:33.179 --> 00:49:34.840
said, it was a different time. So the hospital

00:49:34.840 --> 00:49:37.260
actually let my two brothers, my two youngest

00:49:37.260 --> 00:49:42.699
brothers, and one was probably 14, 15, and the

00:49:42.699 --> 00:49:47.920
other was probably 9, 8 or 9, and let them stay

00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:50.119
in the hospital where my mom was staying in the

00:49:50.119 --> 00:49:52.599
hospital room. So that was awfully nice of them.

00:49:54.860 --> 00:49:59.460
So just at about, my mom got out. She was able

00:49:59.460 --> 00:50:02.780
to get out at about two weeks. And that's when

00:50:02.780 --> 00:50:06.840
we had the funeral for my dad. Because he was

00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:09.059
active military, they did a military funeral.

00:50:09.780 --> 00:50:13.760
And for what it was worth, that was nice. The

00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:16.360
military did that. I did work with them a little

00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:19.760
bit because I worked with them and my mom. So

00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:21.440
they had someone from the military that came

00:50:21.440 --> 00:50:26.760
in. My mom, at the time, the military people

00:50:26.760 --> 00:50:28.980
were going over some benefits he had as a military

00:50:28.980 --> 00:50:33.889
person. And it was good that the military did

00:50:33.889 --> 00:50:36.929
all that because I had no money to spend, and

00:50:36.929 --> 00:50:39.030
I certainly couldn't do anything to try to help

00:50:39.030 --> 00:50:42.590
out. When I flew out there, I don't remember

00:50:42.590 --> 00:50:44.590
exactly how much, but I'm sure it might have

00:50:44.590 --> 00:50:48.090
been $50 I had in my pocket or maybe $80. But

00:50:48.090 --> 00:50:50.690
I certainly didn't have any money to spend on

00:50:50.690 --> 00:50:53.590
anything other than absolute necessities. So

00:50:53.590 --> 00:51:00.119
once my mom was out, I was hoping things would

00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:03.619
be better. Because of the way things were there

00:51:03.619 --> 00:51:05.480
in Maine, it's a small town, and what my dad

00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:09.539
did not only impacted our family, impacted a

00:51:09.539 --> 00:51:14.019
neighbor's family. My mom told me there was no

00:51:14.019 --> 00:51:15.860
way she was going to be able to stay in Maine.

00:51:16.139 --> 00:51:19.119
Because I was living in Colorado, she thought

00:51:19.119 --> 00:51:23.260
she was going to move to Colorado. It might sound

00:51:23.260 --> 00:51:26.480
strange to do that, but realize we were in the

00:51:26.480 --> 00:51:29.239
military, and every three years you're constantly

00:51:29.239 --> 00:51:34.019
moving. So it wasn't like it was too, it didn't

00:51:34.019 --> 00:51:36.300
sound like it was too extreme of something to

00:51:36.300 --> 00:51:40.500
do. So what I did is I took my mom's car or station

00:51:40.500 --> 00:51:43.699
wagon. I loaded as much stuff as I could. I sort

00:51:43.699 --> 00:51:46.460
of upset some of her brothers and sisters because

00:51:46.460 --> 00:51:49.199
everything that I knew that belonged to my mom,

00:51:49.360 --> 00:51:52.000
I went through the rooms and took. And everything

00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:57.239
I could jam in that car, I took. And, you know,

00:51:57.239 --> 00:51:59.159
looking back today, I probably didn't need to

00:51:59.159 --> 00:52:01.960
because the military did move my mom out here.

00:52:02.139 --> 00:52:04.960
But I thought it was the right thing to do. And

00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:06.940
when you're young and a kid, you know, what do

00:52:06.940 --> 00:52:10.039
you really know? But anyways, I drove that car.

00:52:10.960 --> 00:52:13.800
Out to Colorado, and it was three days, and it

00:52:13.800 --> 00:52:17.099
was now the end of October, maybe November 1st.

00:52:17.099 --> 00:52:20.239
I don't remember the exact date. And, you know,

00:52:20.280 --> 00:52:24.059
so there's snow back east, icy roads, and I'm

00:52:24.059 --> 00:52:26.699
a kid. And so I'm driving, and when I'm tired,

00:52:26.760 --> 00:52:29.119
I pull over, stop, and sleep, and then start

00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:34.420
back up and drive. It was an experience, though

00:52:34.420 --> 00:52:36.340
I survived it and lived through it. It's not

00:52:36.340 --> 00:52:38.739
something you want to go through if you don't

00:52:38.739 --> 00:52:46.769
have to. Essentially, my mom and my three brothers

00:52:46.769 --> 00:52:51.590
actually moved out and actually lived in my apartment

00:52:51.590 --> 00:52:57.090
with me for probably a couple weeks. The furnished

00:52:57.090 --> 00:53:01.420
apartment. My furnished apartment. For a couple

00:53:01.420 --> 00:53:04.159
weeks when they were able to leave Maine. And

00:53:04.159 --> 00:53:06.860
they didn't leave Maine until probably sometime

00:53:06.860 --> 00:53:10.360
in January. But I had a carload of her stuff

00:53:10.360 --> 00:53:13.980
here. So that was November, December. So it was

00:53:13.980 --> 00:53:16.920
probably two and a half months before they could

00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:20.639
actually leave. And they flew out to Colorado.

00:53:20.920 --> 00:53:23.500
And I went and picked them up in their station

00:53:23.500 --> 00:53:28.489
wagon that I had. And they, all the rest of their

00:53:28.489 --> 00:53:31.210
stuff with their other car, the military shipped

00:53:31.210 --> 00:53:35.429
it to Colorado. And when my mom was here, and

00:53:35.429 --> 00:53:38.710
it was tough for her because she had been shot

00:53:38.710 --> 00:53:42.949
three times in the arm, a few times in the abdomen.

00:53:44.869 --> 00:53:47.309
She went looking for a house shopping right away,

00:53:47.369 --> 00:53:50.449
and she was able to find a place in Littleton,

00:53:50.489 --> 00:53:53.900
at the time my apartment was in. Aurora, and

00:53:53.900 --> 00:54:01.400
it was off of essentially I -225 and about Colfax,

00:54:01.400 --> 00:54:04.980
we'll say, you know, out east, Aurora. And so

00:54:04.980 --> 00:54:08.460
she found a house down south. I don't know why

00:54:08.460 --> 00:54:11.679
she picked that location, but she did. And she

00:54:11.679 --> 00:54:15.340
bought the house on the GI Bill. So, you know,

00:54:15.340 --> 00:54:18.219
essentially no money down, sign your name and

00:54:18.219 --> 00:54:21.119
you can move in. And what she did, which I thought

00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:23.420
was great because now I can get rid of all this

00:54:23.420 --> 00:54:28.679
stuff. And we never were the type of family.

00:54:28.719 --> 00:54:31.619
We had five kids in our family with my mom and

00:54:31.619 --> 00:54:34.760
dad. So there were seven of us. And because we

00:54:34.760 --> 00:54:37.039
were used to the military life, often there was

00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:40.360
only one bathroom in the house. The military

00:54:40.360 --> 00:54:43.920
houses weren't. like they are today, and they

00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:47.800
certainly, when you have five kids, you don't

00:54:47.800 --> 00:54:50.159
get a five -bedroom house with three bathrooms

00:54:50.159 --> 00:54:56.099
or anything really fancy. So we might have had,

00:54:56.239 --> 00:55:00.500
I remember most places we stayed at was two or

00:55:00.500 --> 00:55:03.980
three bedrooms, two or three bedrooms with one

00:55:03.980 --> 00:55:06.360
bathroom, most of the military housings we stayed

00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:09.840
at. So anyways, but it was good that my mom moved.

00:55:10.329 --> 00:55:12.789
And I helped her pack up and get all that stuff

00:55:12.789 --> 00:55:18.409
there. And essentially, I stayed in the apartment.

00:55:19.030 --> 00:55:26.050
And essentially, I don't know what else to talk

00:55:26.050 --> 00:55:28.309
on that. We could go into some other details.

00:55:28.570 --> 00:55:32.050
So one of the things we should have done. Another

00:55:32.050 --> 00:55:35.869
one of those hindsight things. Back then, they

00:55:35.869 --> 00:55:39.690
didn't do counseling. I think I told you a little

00:55:39.690 --> 00:55:42.710
bit about that. I don't know. I was going to

00:55:42.710 --> 00:55:46.510
ask you, how did you deal with all of what happened?

00:55:46.929 --> 00:55:50.329
I mean, I'm 23, and I can't imagine going through

00:55:50.329 --> 00:55:55.150
that at 19. I can't imagine you had a lot of

00:55:55.150 --> 00:55:57.929
friends either. You were mostly working in Denver

00:55:57.929 --> 00:56:01.309
on your own. How did you deal with it? You probably

00:56:01.309 --> 00:56:04.030
didn't have anyone to talk about it with. So

00:56:04.030 --> 00:56:07.710
another thing that's really different in our

00:56:07.710 --> 00:56:10.989
society today. So the society norm back then

00:56:10.989 --> 00:56:15.429
was if something bad happened to you, whatever

00:56:15.429 --> 00:56:19.110
it might be, there wasn't counseling. And the

00:56:19.110 --> 00:56:23.539
way it was for all of us. through school and

00:56:23.539 --> 00:56:25.340
you know bad things happen to some kids some

00:56:25.340 --> 00:56:28.119
kids had car accidents died or you know parents

00:56:28.119 --> 00:56:31.019
died they were in the military um it was you

00:56:31.019 --> 00:56:34.019
don't discuss the problems with others and what

00:56:34.019 --> 00:56:37.000
the the thinking was back then the reason why

00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:39.519
you didn't discuss it with anyone else is your

00:56:39.519 --> 00:56:43.179
life is a mess or not good why would you want

00:56:43.179 --> 00:56:46.599
to make someone else's life the same and so because

00:56:46.599 --> 00:56:51.840
of that It was just something that wasn't discussed.

00:56:52.440 --> 00:56:57.219
And so none of my brothers went to any counseling.

00:56:57.619 --> 00:57:01.300
And, you know, I wasn't shot, and I didn't have

00:57:01.300 --> 00:57:03.139
to spend any time in the hospital. Yes, I had

00:57:03.139 --> 00:57:06.880
to deal with a lot of things, but I had nothing

00:57:06.880 --> 00:57:09.460
of the experience my brothers did. And it's your

00:57:09.460 --> 00:57:13.780
dad that did these things. Same for my mom. My

00:57:13.780 --> 00:57:16.800
mom never remarried after this incident happened.

00:57:18.980 --> 00:57:24.000
My brothers, one of them did get married. The

00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:25.960
one just younger than me got married, and he

00:57:25.960 --> 00:57:28.659
was married for maybe a little over a month,

00:57:28.760 --> 00:57:31.760
and that didn't work out. And all my brothers

00:57:31.760 --> 00:57:38.989
died early in their lives. None of us know for

00:57:38.989 --> 00:57:42.050
sure, but I do believe that what occurred was

00:57:42.050 --> 00:57:45.530
definitely because of what had happened. Did

00:57:45.530 --> 00:57:47.550
you ever get a chance to talk to them about it?

00:57:49.010 --> 00:57:51.909
It was something we never spoke about. It was

00:57:51.909 --> 00:57:55.070
something that the things I'm telling you today

00:57:55.070 --> 00:57:58.010
of how I got my mom's car from my brother, how

00:57:58.010 --> 00:58:01.989
I got my dad's car from his mom and his sisters

00:58:01.989 --> 00:58:04.630
and brother, I never even told that to my mom.

00:58:05.739 --> 00:58:09.440
picking the things out from the funeral home,

00:58:09.559 --> 00:58:14.079
you know, it was just something we never spoke

00:58:14.079 --> 00:58:18.579
about. My wife and I have been married, you know,

00:58:18.599 --> 00:58:22.699
like I said, close to 50 years. You know, we

00:58:22.699 --> 00:58:24.400
might have discussed a few things, but we've

00:58:24.400 --> 00:58:28.900
never sat down like this and actually, you know.

00:58:29.490 --> 00:58:32.269
dissect at every little piece now she knows a

00:58:32.269 --> 00:58:34.210
lot of things because you know we've been married

00:58:34.210 --> 00:58:38.530
a long time but to sit down and discuss it we

00:58:38.530 --> 00:58:42.530
never did um we did try to reconcile like well

00:58:42.530 --> 00:58:44.829
geez why would your dad do something like this

00:58:44.829 --> 00:58:49.130
you know why why is it um what had happened with

00:58:49.130 --> 00:58:51.289
my dad my dad was in the military and he did

00:58:51.289 --> 00:58:54.250
two tours of duty in vietnam and vietnam we all

00:58:54.250 --> 00:58:57.369
know was not a popular war in the u .s for a

00:58:57.369 --> 00:59:00.199
number of reasons A number of reasons why it

00:59:00.199 --> 00:59:03.099
wasn't. We won't go into that. But when you're

00:59:03.099 --> 00:59:06.659
in the military and you're told your tour of

00:59:06.659 --> 00:59:09.699
duty is here, this is what you do. You don't

00:59:09.699 --> 00:59:16.420
get a choice. So my dad went to Vietnam both

00:59:16.420 --> 00:59:20.440
times for a year. And the first time he went,

00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:24.289
I think he was, I don't remember his grade. Tech

00:59:24.289 --> 00:59:26.510
sergeant, I would think. My dad, when this all

00:59:26.510 --> 00:59:30.070
occurred, was a tech sergeant in E -5, E -6,

00:59:30.210 --> 00:59:32.590
E -6. And when all this happened, my dad was

00:59:32.590 --> 00:59:36.289
an E -9, so highest you can be in the Air Force.

00:59:36.449 --> 00:59:39.750
He was Air Force. So what people don't realize

00:59:39.750 --> 00:59:42.929
is, and like I told you, David, bottled water

00:59:42.929 --> 00:59:49.409
is a fairly new phenomena for our society. Everyone

00:59:49.409 --> 00:59:53.480
just uses it like, hey, this is normal. We didn't

00:59:53.480 --> 00:59:56.599
have bottled water. We didn't have water jars.

00:59:56.820 --> 00:59:59.199
We didn't have water bottles. We didn't have

00:59:59.199 --> 01:00:02.360
any of that when we were growing up. You might

01:00:02.360 --> 01:00:04.519
have had a drinking fountain here or there. Most

01:00:04.519 --> 01:00:08.440
kids drank out of the hose. It was just the way

01:00:08.440 --> 01:00:11.260
it was. You had a cup. They weren't a sippy cup

01:00:11.260 --> 01:00:13.739
that you had. You just had a cup. You might have

01:00:13.739 --> 01:00:16.440
left that outside from the day before that's

01:00:16.440 --> 01:00:18.659
in the ground or on the grass. And if you wanted

01:00:18.659 --> 01:00:21.119
water, you might fill it with the hose or the

01:00:21.119 --> 01:00:23.559
spigot or whatever. But anyways, when my dad

01:00:23.559 --> 01:00:27.079
was in the military overseas in Vietnam, obviously

01:00:27.079 --> 01:00:31.090
they didn't have purified water. It wasn't readily

01:00:31.090 --> 01:00:34.429
available in a manner that people could drink.

01:00:34.750 --> 01:00:37.409
So what they did back then was all the military

01:00:37.409 --> 01:00:41.050
guys drank beer. Now, it was 3 -2 beer, so that

01:00:41.050 --> 01:00:44.110
means 3 .2 % as opposed to the full strength,

01:00:44.269 --> 01:00:46.650
whatever it is today, 6 -7%. Yeah, 5 -6. Yeah,

01:00:46.730 --> 01:00:48.670
or 5 or 6, whatever it is. I don't know. I don't

01:00:48.670 --> 01:00:52.329
drink because of what had happened. So my dad,

01:00:52.469 --> 01:00:55.230
that's all he drank was beer. And when you get

01:00:55.230 --> 01:00:57.809
up... You know, and he'd drink beer. And the

01:00:57.809 --> 01:01:01.670
first tour, he was okay. My recollection, I told

01:01:01.670 --> 01:01:05.329
you, I felt we had maybe not a perfect family,

01:01:05.349 --> 01:01:09.469
but I felt we had, there was happy times, is

01:01:09.469 --> 01:01:13.750
what I'll say. It wasn't always fighting. It

01:01:13.750 --> 01:01:16.789
wasn't always, you know, people, you know, having

01:01:16.789 --> 01:01:19.510
a bone broken or, you know, someone in the hospital

01:01:19.510 --> 01:01:21.650
because they got beat up or, you know, something

01:01:21.650 --> 01:01:26.409
bad happened. The second time when my dad went,

01:01:26.489 --> 01:01:28.909
when he came back, he was definitely an alcoholic.

01:01:29.309 --> 01:01:32.929
And there was, he would probably drink, I don't

01:01:32.929 --> 01:01:35.349
know, I would say a case of beer a day. I don't

01:01:35.349 --> 01:01:37.449
know if it was that much, but it probably was.

01:01:37.670 --> 01:01:40.489
And it wasn't three, two. And back then, they

01:01:40.489 --> 01:01:43.510
didn't drink the beer they have today. It was

01:01:43.510 --> 01:01:46.309
Schlitz or hams is what I seem to recall seeing

01:01:46.309 --> 01:01:50.840
all the time. What's interesting is, even when

01:01:50.840 --> 01:01:53.920
we lived in Okinawa and we left there in 1973,

01:01:54.260 --> 01:01:57.260
if you go to the barracks where the GIs were,

01:01:57.559 --> 01:02:02.219
and this is why I feel strongly for the veterans,

01:02:02.460 --> 01:02:04.619
that some of the things that's happened to them

01:02:04.619 --> 01:02:08.500
wasn't all their choice. So in the barracks...

01:02:08.889 --> 01:02:11.690
This was in 73 when we were over there and I

01:02:11.690 --> 01:02:13.690
was a dependent, so I was going to high school.

01:02:15.070 --> 01:02:17.030
If you go into the barracks and they had pop

01:02:17.030 --> 01:02:20.389
machines, and they'd have Choco, Pepsi, Mountain

01:02:20.389 --> 01:02:22.690
Dew, Dr. Pepper, I don't know, whatever all the

01:02:22.690 --> 01:02:25.550
Fresca, I think, was some of the, you know, orange

01:02:25.550 --> 01:02:28.010
or whatever they had. And you put your nickel

01:02:28.010 --> 01:02:30.510
or ten cents in and push the button. What came

01:02:30.510 --> 01:02:34.679
out was a beer. And it was always hams or slits.

01:02:34.699 --> 01:02:36.820
And it didn't seem to matter what pop you pushed.

01:02:36.900 --> 01:02:39.480
It was just a beer. And that's what they put

01:02:39.480 --> 01:02:43.079
in the machines. And so all the young guys that

01:02:43.079 --> 01:02:45.860
were in the military, now it probably wasn't

01:02:45.860 --> 01:02:47.760
the full -strength beer, but it was the 3 -2

01:02:47.760 --> 01:02:50.800
beer, but that's what they drank. And my jobs

01:02:50.800 --> 01:02:56.320
when I had over there, I'd work at some of the...

01:02:58.480 --> 01:03:00.360
I'm trying to think some of the military jobs.

01:03:00.659 --> 01:03:03.000
It was in warehouse work, most of it, you know,

01:03:03.000 --> 01:03:04.760
because they were moving stuff in and out of

01:03:04.760 --> 01:03:07.880
Vietnam. And I do have a lot of pictures that

01:03:07.880 --> 01:03:09.719
I'd taken back then. They were black and white,

01:03:09.780 --> 01:03:11.900
so I just did the negatives. You know, you don't

01:03:11.900 --> 01:03:15.820
print them. But you go to a dark room and print

01:03:15.820 --> 01:03:20.320
it yourself. But anyways, on Fridays, they bring

01:03:20.320 --> 01:03:23.119
cases of beer in. And if you wanted some water

01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:25.059
to drink through the day, they'd have a drinking

01:03:25.059 --> 01:03:28.539
fountain. But out of the half dozen drinking

01:03:28.539 --> 01:03:30.719
fountains there, there was always half of them

01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:35.019
that didn't work. And it was just the way things

01:03:35.019 --> 01:03:39.880
were. And so, you know, for me as a kid, the

01:03:39.880 --> 01:03:42.280
drinking containers we had back then was called

01:03:42.280 --> 01:03:45.480
a thermos. And you had a thermos generally was

01:03:45.480 --> 01:03:48.460
for you put your soup in or you put your coffee.

01:03:48.579 --> 01:03:52.829
You didn't have like a water bottle or... a water

01:03:52.829 --> 01:03:56.409
jug or any of that other type of stuff. It just,

01:03:56.630 --> 01:04:00.449
I just, it was just a different thing. So for

01:04:00.449 --> 01:04:05.829
me, because my dad was an alcoholic, I know that's

01:04:05.829 --> 01:04:09.730
at least I sort of feel that's why some of the

01:04:09.730 --> 01:04:13.489
things happen that did, unfortunately. So whenever

01:04:13.489 --> 01:04:15.530
you thought about your dad back then, what was

01:04:15.530 --> 01:04:17.969
your opinion of him? Like, did you like him?

01:04:18.170 --> 01:04:21.760
Do you think he was a good person? Like, What

01:04:21.760 --> 01:04:27.260
was your thoughts around him? So interesting

01:04:27.260 --> 01:04:31.360
question. So obviously things evolve. So when

01:04:31.360 --> 01:04:34.579
I was younger, I thought we had five kids, you

01:04:34.579 --> 01:04:38.300
know, and I thought my parents were good and

01:04:38.300 --> 01:04:40.860
I thought this was the norm. As I was growing

01:04:40.860 --> 01:04:46.639
up, I could see that, geez. I certainly don't

01:04:46.639 --> 01:04:48.880
want to live like this, and I certainly don't

01:04:48.880 --> 01:04:53.760
think this is the right way to be. Things that

01:04:53.760 --> 01:04:56.380
would occur when we were in North Dakota before

01:04:56.380 --> 01:04:58.760
we went to Okinawa, you know, so another freezing

01:04:58.760 --> 01:05:01.659
place to another. Okinawa is a tropical place

01:05:01.659 --> 01:05:05.400
where it's warm. When we were there, our family

01:05:05.400 --> 01:05:08.460
was made Catholic Family of the Year. And I used

01:05:08.460 --> 01:05:10.840
to think, how can they? And, you know, things

01:05:10.840 --> 01:05:14.469
weren't great. because that was when my dad had

01:05:14.469 --> 01:05:19.110
got back from the second tour of duty. And I'm

01:05:19.110 --> 01:05:22.190
thinking, how can they pick us as Catholic Family

01:05:22.190 --> 01:05:25.590
of the Year? Now, myself and my brother that

01:05:25.590 --> 01:05:27.590
was just younger than me, we were altar servers.

01:05:28.289 --> 01:05:31.750
And so we worked in the church, and my dad was

01:05:31.750 --> 01:05:35.349
a lector, so we did read scripture readings in

01:05:35.349 --> 01:05:38.670
the church. But all in all, if they had all saw

01:05:38.670 --> 01:05:41.900
what went on behind closed doors, I would call

01:05:41.900 --> 01:05:44.320
it like World War III most times. Because if

01:05:44.320 --> 01:05:46.139
you ever said anything, you know, you got punch,

01:05:46.280 --> 01:05:48.679
you got beat, you know, you got a black eye.

01:05:49.159 --> 01:05:52.179
And when you went to school looking like that,

01:05:52.320 --> 01:05:54.900
they never said a thing. They never said, geez,

01:05:55.099 --> 01:05:58.280
did anything happen? They never asked. And it

01:05:58.280 --> 01:06:00.519
wasn't just for me, but, you know, my mom was

01:06:00.519 --> 01:06:04.039
the same. So she'd be wearing sunglasses in the

01:06:04.039 --> 01:06:09.460
wintertime in North Dakota. But they did a write

01:06:09.460 --> 01:06:12.139
-up on us, our family, and that happened. Earlier

01:06:12.139 --> 01:06:14.940
years, I think things were good when my dad got

01:06:14.940 --> 01:06:19.860
mixed up with alcohol. He never did drugs, as

01:06:19.860 --> 01:06:23.840
long as I know. In the military, alcohol was

01:06:23.840 --> 01:06:26.659
sort of like something everyone had to drink.

01:06:27.699 --> 01:06:30.260
Here, have a beer with me. I don't know what

01:06:30.260 --> 01:06:35.409
the reason was, but it was. It's just... So from

01:06:35.409 --> 01:06:37.829
my standpoint, I saw that at an early age, and

01:06:37.829 --> 01:06:40.090
I said, geez, life is tough enough for me. I'm

01:06:40.090 --> 01:06:42.969
not going to drink ever. And I don't know, I

01:06:42.969 --> 01:06:45.170
might have had a sip of beer once or twice, but

01:06:45.170 --> 01:06:47.570
everyone that knows me knows that I just don't

01:06:47.570 --> 01:06:50.269
drink. I don't care what it is. I just don't

01:06:50.269 --> 01:06:55.210
need it. So anything else along those lines?

01:06:55.849 --> 01:06:57.989
My mom might have had a drink once in a while,

01:06:58.070 --> 01:07:01.719
but she never was. drunk or anything unfortunately

01:07:01.719 --> 01:07:05.179
that wasn't the case for my brothers they sort

01:07:05.179 --> 01:07:09.019
of saw drinking as something fun and unfortunately

01:07:09.019 --> 01:07:13.340
that's you know you know attributed to their

01:07:13.340 --> 01:07:17.300
early death also so um hopefully i answered that

01:07:17.300 --> 01:07:19.360
question okay i don't know i mean yeah i was

01:07:19.360 --> 01:07:22.489
just asking if If you liked him, I guess. So

01:07:22.489 --> 01:07:25.349
the answer was in the early years, I will say

01:07:25.349 --> 01:07:28.210
yes, you know, because I figured. But remember

01:07:28.210 --> 01:07:30.590
in the military, the dads are gone often. So

01:07:30.590 --> 01:07:33.269
you didn't see him that often and he was working.

01:07:35.030 --> 01:07:40.250
Certainly in the later years, didn't like him,

01:07:40.309 --> 01:07:45.309
would be saying something nice. So at the time,

01:07:45.389 --> 01:07:50.099
you know, certainly. certainly was worse and

01:07:50.099 --> 01:07:53.079
didn't like him yeah at the time because of some

01:07:53.079 --> 01:07:55.400
of the things he was doing not only to other

01:07:55.400 --> 01:07:59.480
family members but to myself and um you know

01:07:59.480 --> 01:08:04.079
so but such is life yeah yeah and how did you

01:08:04.079 --> 01:08:07.639
you carry all of this experience going forward

01:08:07.639 --> 01:08:10.860
like was this in the back of your mind when move

01:08:10.860 --> 01:08:14.059
back to colorado you're still working like or

01:08:14.059 --> 01:08:15.980
is this something that you just locked away and

01:08:15.980 --> 01:08:23.189
you didn't think about The way life was then,

01:08:23.369 --> 01:08:26.550
I mean, opening these doors today, but back then

01:08:26.550 --> 01:08:29.310
we just put it in a box and just put it away.

01:08:29.569 --> 01:08:34.170
And why even talk about it? So my mom moved out

01:08:34.170 --> 01:08:40.909
here, and she lived out here 10, 20, 30, 40 years,

01:08:41.109 --> 01:08:46.520
and none of her friends knew. what happened um

01:08:46.520 --> 01:08:51.060
you know she never said i never told them and

01:08:51.060 --> 01:08:55.680
um it was just the way life was back then most

01:08:55.680 --> 01:08:58.819
people have no idea the cross people carry through

01:08:58.819 --> 01:09:01.920
life yeah um they just see him on the surface

01:09:01.920 --> 01:09:07.439
and that's just what they believe it was um a

01:09:07.439 --> 01:09:14.119
tough tough time but back then the church and

01:09:14.119 --> 01:09:16.680
society as a whole was, hey, you stayed together.

01:09:16.920 --> 01:09:19.760
This was your family. It would have been nice

01:09:19.760 --> 01:09:23.100
had there been some men's group that could have

01:09:23.100 --> 01:09:25.380
been involved and maybe got my dad to change

01:09:25.380 --> 01:09:28.779
or have some accountability, but that wasn't

01:09:28.779 --> 01:09:31.279
the way it was back then. Your problems in your

01:09:31.279 --> 01:09:34.680
house stayed in your house, and you didn't share

01:09:34.680 --> 01:09:36.920
those problems with someone else, whatever they

01:09:36.920 --> 01:09:41.000
were, unfortunately. Do you think it did? Do

01:09:41.000 --> 01:09:42.720
you think it did impact the rest of your life,

01:09:42.779 --> 01:09:45.260
and how did it do that following those years?

01:09:45.840 --> 01:09:52.619
Well, obviously, everything impacts us. So I

01:09:52.619 --> 01:09:56.399
joined a number of different men's groups at

01:09:56.399 --> 01:10:00.000
our church. Because of what had happened, I was

01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:02.600
very concerned about getting married. But being

01:10:02.600 --> 01:10:07.420
a young guy, geez, I wanted to be married. There

01:10:07.420 --> 01:10:10.850
is some benefits there. Sort of the way life

01:10:10.850 --> 01:10:16.930
is. And so, but having kids, I was very, very

01:10:16.930 --> 01:10:19.850
concerned about having kids. And my wife and

01:10:19.850 --> 01:10:25.869
I, we were married seven years before we thought

01:10:25.869 --> 01:10:29.350
maybe we could overcome some challenges and have

01:10:29.350 --> 01:10:31.890
a child. And we did. We were blessed with one

01:10:31.890 --> 01:10:36.890
child. And, you know, sometimes you think, how

01:10:36.890 --> 01:10:42.539
does life? How did these things happen? How are

01:10:42.539 --> 01:10:45.619
opportunities given and not? And those are the

01:10:45.619 --> 01:10:47.659
ones when you get to be a little older and reflect

01:10:47.659 --> 01:10:52.000
on life, you realize someone's actually looking

01:10:52.000 --> 01:10:56.319
out for you because so many bad things could

01:10:56.319 --> 01:11:02.140
have happened so easily and for whatever reason

01:11:02.140 --> 01:11:07.279
they didn't. And there's so many things. So back

01:11:07.279 --> 01:11:12.079
then, On cars, you put new tires on a car. Back

01:11:12.079 --> 01:11:14.720
then, we didn't buy new tires. We bought recaps.

01:11:15.199 --> 01:11:19.760
And if your recap tire lasted a year, hey, it

01:11:19.760 --> 01:11:22.319
was a good one. And often the recap would come

01:11:22.319 --> 01:11:25.319
off. You might get a blowout. All types of bad

01:11:25.319 --> 01:11:29.800
things happened. And, you know, my old Mustang,

01:11:29.960 --> 01:11:32.880
it didn't have seatbelts. We didn't drive with

01:11:32.880 --> 01:11:37.489
seatbelts back then. It is just amazing that

01:11:37.489 --> 01:11:43.409
nothing really bad happened to myself or my wife.

01:11:43.710 --> 01:11:47.789
And it certainly could have. And so when you

01:11:47.789 --> 01:11:51.029
reflect on life, you see that, geez, somebody,

01:11:51.369 --> 01:11:56.390
and it wasn't just my choices, somebody was opening

01:11:56.390 --> 01:11:59.470
doors for me and allowing things to happen. And

01:11:59.470 --> 01:12:03.050
those are things you see differently when you

01:12:03.050 --> 01:12:05.609
get older. When you're younger and you're in

01:12:05.609 --> 01:12:08.170
survival mode, it's hard to actually get much

01:12:08.170 --> 01:12:11.310
perspective because you're just trying to survive

01:12:11.310 --> 01:12:13.989
the minute. You're just trying to make it through

01:12:13.989 --> 01:12:17.109
right now. So different time. I just know that

01:12:17.109 --> 01:12:19.409
when I left home, my folks were thinking I should

01:12:19.409 --> 01:12:21.970
have joined the military. But I felt I'd put

01:12:21.970 --> 01:12:27.590
my 18 years in and there was no way was I going

01:12:27.590 --> 01:12:33.399
into the military. I just couldn't do it. Maybe

01:12:33.399 --> 01:12:36.180
as an officer I would have. Yeah, but never in

01:12:36.180 --> 01:12:39.840
combat. Oh, well, never as enlisted. So another

01:12:39.840 --> 01:12:41.800
thing that people don't realize about the military,

01:12:41.960 --> 01:12:44.380
at least when I was in the military, because

01:12:44.380 --> 01:12:47.520
I was enlisted and I graduated high school, they

01:12:47.520 --> 01:12:50.460
did have school counselors. The school counselors

01:12:50.460 --> 01:12:54.460
were for the officer's kids. So if you were an

01:12:54.460 --> 01:12:57.659
officer and you had kids, the thinking was all

01:12:57.659 --> 01:13:00.939
the officer's kids are going to college. You're

01:13:00.939 --> 01:13:03.699
enlisted. you were going to go get a job. It

01:13:03.699 --> 01:13:06.859
was a total different way of thinking and looking

01:13:06.859 --> 01:13:12.100
at things. And even though I graduated high school,

01:13:12.159 --> 01:13:14.579
but I knew I was smarter than a lot of those

01:13:14.579 --> 01:13:17.060
other people. And back then I felt I wanted to

01:13:17.060 --> 01:13:20.140
be a physician, a doctor. But that wasn't in

01:13:20.140 --> 01:13:22.819
the cards because I didn't have any support to

01:13:22.819 --> 01:13:27.100
help me with that. It was life. There's nothing

01:13:27.100 --> 01:13:29.479
to complain about. It's just the way life was.

01:13:30.779 --> 01:13:32.159
Were you ever worried you were going to become

01:13:32.159 --> 01:13:38.079
like your dad? I was majorly concerned, and it

01:13:38.079 --> 01:13:40.720
was on the top of my mind, and I certainly did

01:13:40.720 --> 01:13:46.500
not want to let that happen. So something you

01:13:46.500 --> 01:13:52.840
think about often was that I wasn't going to

01:13:52.840 --> 01:13:55.600
go down that road. And so I didn't want to be

01:13:55.600 --> 01:13:58.170
like... I didn't want to be like that. I didn't

01:13:58.170 --> 01:14:03.329
want to fall into that rut. And so I stayed,

01:14:03.630 --> 01:14:08.050
you know, I really tried to make sure I didn't.

01:14:08.109 --> 01:14:13.710
And like I said, not perfect, but in reflecting

01:14:13.710 --> 01:14:17.810
back, I can't see any time that I did any of

01:14:17.810 --> 01:14:19.970
those things. You know, I certainly wasn't physically

01:14:19.970 --> 01:14:23.569
abusive to any of my kids or my one child, and

01:14:23.569 --> 01:14:26.520
I certainly wasn't physically abusive. to my

01:14:26.520 --> 01:14:30.579
wife but you might talk to her and might say

01:14:30.579 --> 01:14:33.279
i was mentally i don't know you know playing

01:14:33.279 --> 01:14:35.880
mind games i don't know i don't think so i tried

01:14:35.880 --> 01:14:39.239
to be a decent person but i'll tell you what

01:14:39.239 --> 01:14:42.640
it's tough yeah not every day is a sunny day

01:14:42.640 --> 01:14:46.920
yeah for any of us so yeah did did you ever find

01:14:46.920 --> 01:14:50.420
someone as a father figure or mentor that showed

01:14:50.420 --> 01:14:54.579
you maybe a different way of doing things I think

01:14:54.579 --> 01:14:58.300
we all find people that are friends. So a lot

01:14:58.300 --> 01:15:02.680
of our friends early on were older people. And

01:15:02.680 --> 01:15:05.520
I did have a really good friend. His name was

01:15:05.520 --> 01:15:11.220
Grady. And though I was always handy with cars

01:15:11.220 --> 01:15:14.060
and I could do things, he actually owned a few

01:15:14.060 --> 01:15:18.479
gas stations, service stations. And back then,

01:15:18.560 --> 01:15:21.359
gas stations just didn't... pump gas and sell

01:15:21.359 --> 01:15:25.220
uh bread eggs and milk and all that other stuff

01:15:25.220 --> 01:15:27.560
back then service stations you brought your car

01:15:27.560 --> 01:15:30.460
in because most of the cars were old and you

01:15:30.460 --> 01:15:33.039
know they all need something they fixed them

01:15:33.039 --> 01:15:37.609
there and so he owned a few and he he was pretty

01:15:37.609 --> 01:15:40.470
skilled and he taught me a lot of things and

01:15:40.470 --> 01:15:43.689
I thought he was a good guy and so him and I

01:15:43.689 --> 01:15:46.390
bought some cars together him and I guy him and

01:15:46.390 --> 01:15:49.949
I did some business things together and he was

01:15:49.949 --> 01:15:51.930
the age he's the age of what my dad would have

01:15:51.930 --> 01:15:54.630
been you know he's passed at this point but he

01:15:54.630 --> 01:15:57.329
was a good guy and him and I had a lot of good

01:15:57.329 --> 01:15:59.750
experience and did a lot of good things and I

01:15:59.750 --> 01:16:01.850
had some other older guys that we did some things

01:16:01.850 --> 01:16:06.239
with and um From my standpoint, I thought it

01:16:06.239 --> 01:16:11.619
was good. And, you know, see how life evolves

01:16:11.619 --> 01:16:15.319
for all of us. Yeah, yeah. And how did you end

01:16:15.319 --> 01:16:20.460
up going from 19 -year -old kid is living in

01:16:20.460 --> 01:16:22.239
Denver. You had your apartment. Your mom moved

01:16:22.239 --> 01:16:25.380
out. And then at some point you start a business

01:16:25.380 --> 01:16:28.079
or learned how to do business. So what I did

01:16:28.079 --> 01:16:31.279
is, like I said, I was always one of those type

01:16:31.279 --> 01:16:40.920
of people that could do things. People, so I'll

01:16:40.920 --> 01:16:44.239
give a perspective on work. The people today,

01:16:44.439 --> 01:16:47.159
and I shouldn't characterize everyone, but a

01:16:47.159 --> 01:16:50.899
lot of people today, what they look at a job.

01:16:51.420 --> 01:16:55.039
as something they have to do and what they want

01:16:55.039 --> 01:16:57.420
to do is more vacation time or more time away

01:16:57.420 --> 01:17:01.779
doing their own. So for me, what I saw as my

01:17:01.779 --> 01:17:08.140
job was more my lifestyle. So what I would do

01:17:08.140 --> 01:17:12.380
is when I was actually working, though I started

01:17:12.380 --> 01:17:16.319
in mechanics, and the reason why I did that was

01:17:16.319 --> 01:17:20.180
I was a high school graduate. Most mechanics

01:17:20.180 --> 01:17:24.039
back then were not. I thought, shoot, if they

01:17:24.039 --> 01:17:27.500
can work on cars, I'm a high school graduate.

01:17:27.680 --> 01:17:30.180
I can do at least what they do or better. That

01:17:30.180 --> 01:17:32.960
was the thinking, my mindset back then. And it

01:17:32.960 --> 01:17:35.640
served me well. What I wanted to do is I wanted

01:17:35.640 --> 01:17:40.300
to get into, I was good with soldering and I

01:17:40.300 --> 01:17:43.239
was good with electronics. No formal training

01:17:43.239 --> 01:17:46.180
that I had. But I could take things apart, see

01:17:46.180 --> 01:17:49.710
what was wrong and fix them. Um, a lot of things

01:17:49.710 --> 01:17:51.550
were just by visual cause you know, the things

01:17:51.550 --> 01:17:53.829
were soldered poorly or, you know, the workmanship

01:17:53.829 --> 01:17:56.710
was poor, but I did fix a number of things. Um,

01:17:56.869 --> 01:17:59.210
and so I wanted to do that. So I want, I knew

01:17:59.210 --> 01:18:01.869
being a mechanic all your life is a hard job.

01:18:02.130 --> 01:18:04.949
And so what I did is, is after my mom moved out

01:18:04.949 --> 01:18:08.409
here and because my dad died active military,

01:18:08.649 --> 01:18:12.029
uh, and I still had my ID card, I had it for

01:18:12.029 --> 01:18:16.649
a few years. So for health, so when I got hurt,

01:18:16.789 --> 01:18:18.529
various things happened to me. I actually went

01:18:18.529 --> 01:18:20.689
to a military hospital, and they patched me up

01:18:20.689 --> 01:18:24.949
there, even though I was living on my own. I

01:18:24.949 --> 01:18:28.810
went to a trade school here in Colorado, and

01:18:28.810 --> 01:18:30.630
it was called Denver Institute of Technology.

01:18:30.710 --> 01:18:33.569
They're no longer around, but they were over

01:18:33.569 --> 01:18:36.449
there off about Evans and Tejon. They had a facility

01:18:36.449 --> 01:18:41.220
there. And back then they weren't called computer

01:18:41.220 --> 01:18:43.039
techs, they were called electronic technicians.

01:18:43.399 --> 01:18:46.640
And what you did there is you actually fixed

01:18:46.640 --> 01:18:51.239
anything that, so it would be like TVs, VCRs,

01:18:51.239 --> 01:18:56.260
cassette recorders, radios, any of those things.

01:18:56.380 --> 01:18:58.680
And one of the things with me, because I had

01:18:58.680 --> 01:19:01.979
like mechanical experience and I knew how to

01:19:01.979 --> 01:19:05.699
solder and look at things, I could excel at that,

01:19:05.779 --> 01:19:09.079
and I did very well. And so like my first real,

01:19:09.199 --> 01:19:13.579
I'll say real paying job, is I worked at AT &T

01:19:13.579 --> 01:19:20.859
as an electronics technician. And so, but remember,

01:19:20.960 --> 01:19:22.600
I was one of those that always had more than

01:19:22.600 --> 01:19:25.340
one job. And so there was a small computer company

01:19:25.340 --> 01:19:29.199
called Computer System Dynamics that I ran into

01:19:29.199 --> 01:19:33.260
that just was a startup. They had four owners.

01:19:33.919 --> 01:19:38.060
And I was like employee one. And so I was their

01:19:38.060 --> 01:19:43.939
computer technician, fixing computers. So it's

01:19:43.939 --> 01:19:47.079
changed today. Back then, computers, what was

01:19:47.079 --> 01:19:49.300
expensive was the hardware. The software was

01:19:49.300 --> 01:19:55.600
low cost. So when you bought hardware, the way

01:19:55.600 --> 01:19:57.359
that they sold it back then was whatever the

01:19:57.359 --> 01:20:00.659
cost of it was. So if it cost $1 ,000, you sold

01:20:00.659 --> 01:20:03.899
it typically at least to... You'd try to get

01:20:03.899 --> 01:20:06.640
three times. So if you paid $1 ,000, you'd sell

01:20:06.640 --> 01:20:09.180
it for $3 ,000. That isn't where it's at today.

01:20:09.300 --> 01:20:12.520
The margins today is cost plus. So if you bought

01:20:12.520 --> 01:20:16.300
it for $1 ,000, you might be able to get 10%,

01:20:16.300 --> 01:20:20.220
might be able to get $100, maybe $1 ,100 you

01:20:20.220 --> 01:20:24.920
sell it for. So anyways, so I worked there, and

01:20:24.920 --> 01:20:29.220
they flew me around to fix computers. And what

01:20:29.220 --> 01:20:31.279
I would do is I'd go out there with my soldering

01:20:31.279 --> 01:20:35.260
iron. I'd go out there, my oscilloscope, my vacuum

01:20:35.260 --> 01:20:39.380
tube, voltmeter, and a handful of tools. And

01:20:39.380 --> 01:20:43.960
I would fix circuit boards. I would fix power

01:20:43.960 --> 01:20:48.460
supplies. It was component -level troubleshooting.

01:20:48.579 --> 01:20:52.399
And what I found pretty quickly was the same

01:20:52.399 --> 01:20:54.659
components are the ones that typically fail.

01:20:55.319 --> 01:20:59.439
And so to fix the first one might have taken

01:20:59.439 --> 01:21:03.369
a while. But if it was the same board to fix

01:21:03.369 --> 01:21:06.810
the second one, I was quick. You know, like 15

01:21:06.810 --> 01:21:08.369
minutes, where the first one might have taken

01:21:08.369 --> 01:21:11.069
a few hours. And because I had done so many,

01:21:11.329 --> 01:21:13.390
you know, a lot of people thought I was really

01:21:13.390 --> 01:21:15.989
good. Anyways, long story short on that, because

01:21:15.989 --> 01:21:18.109
I was employee one, that company probably had

01:21:18.109 --> 01:21:22.289
75 employees at one time. And like in a lot of

01:21:22.289 --> 01:21:26.909
small companies, owners get greedy. And owners

01:21:26.909 --> 01:21:29.090
got greedy and tried to force one owner out.

01:21:30.110 --> 01:21:32.350
So there's four owners, two in Salt Lake, two

01:21:32.350 --> 01:21:35.470
in Colorado. So the two in Salt Lake, they spun

01:21:35.470 --> 01:21:37.109
off and did their own thing. They broke with

01:21:37.109 --> 01:21:39.350
the company here in Colorado, so obviously I

01:21:39.350 --> 01:21:42.050
was here. So there was two owners here. For whatever

01:21:42.050 --> 01:21:44.189
reason, one owner thought he was the smarter

01:21:44.189 --> 01:21:46.090
one or whatever, so he kicked the other owner

01:21:46.090 --> 01:21:48.789
out. And they do that in small companies, by

01:21:48.789 --> 01:21:50.850
the way. They manipulate the stock and a number

01:21:50.850 --> 01:21:53.590
of other things. And because I was in that company,

01:21:53.850 --> 01:21:59.140
and, you know, cash flow is always tough. I took

01:21:59.140 --> 01:22:02.460
a lot of my salary as stock. And at the time,

01:22:02.479 --> 01:22:04.520
it seemed like it was a smart thing to do. But

01:22:04.520 --> 01:22:07.180
in small companies, if it's not a publicly held

01:22:07.180 --> 01:22:09.819
company, what you have in stock isn't even worth

01:22:09.819 --> 01:22:13.039
the paper it's printed on. So anyways, at the

01:22:13.039 --> 01:22:16.539
time, I probably owned, I don't know, I'll say

01:22:16.539 --> 01:22:20.020
10 % of the company because they were using my

01:22:20.020 --> 01:22:24.859
money. And so the two owners, one owner wanted

01:22:24.859 --> 01:22:27.100
the other out. I thought it was unfair. I made

01:22:27.100 --> 01:22:30.140
a big stink about it. We probably had 25, 30

01:22:30.140 --> 01:22:32.979
employees. And the one owner said, well, if that's

01:22:32.979 --> 01:22:35.119
the way you feel, you're gone too. Okay. Hey,

01:22:35.199 --> 01:22:39.300
so I left. And so my wife, Joan, was working.

01:22:39.420 --> 01:22:42.659
At the time, she was working at AT &T. And so

01:22:42.659 --> 01:22:45.300
even though I was working at AT &T full -time

01:22:45.300 --> 01:22:47.659
and working at this computer company also full

01:22:47.659 --> 01:22:52.279
-time. 80 hours a week. Yeah. What I did is I

01:22:52.279 --> 01:22:55.600
quit AT &T when my wife went there. Got a job

01:22:55.600 --> 01:22:58.420
there. And I went to work for the computer company

01:22:58.420 --> 01:23:02.119
working more hours. And so that's why I was more

01:23:02.119 --> 01:23:05.239
like 60 to 80 hours at that company. And then

01:23:05.239 --> 01:23:07.119
I had like a side thing that I did with my friend

01:23:07.119 --> 01:23:12.100
Grady doing car stuff on weekends. And so what

01:23:12.100 --> 01:23:16.199
happened was when the two of them split, I made

01:23:16.199 --> 01:23:18.659
a stink, like I said. So that guy was fired.

01:23:18.840 --> 01:23:21.819
And so I said, well, geez. What do the people

01:23:21.819 --> 01:23:23.380
there know? They don't know anything because

01:23:23.380 --> 01:23:26.220
I was the, you know, employee one. And I was

01:23:26.220 --> 01:23:29.640
the guy that, you know, I'll say to myself, I

01:23:29.640 --> 01:23:33.880
knew everything, you know. So I thought. But

01:23:33.880 --> 01:23:37.039
I said to the other guy, hey, why don't we start

01:23:37.039 --> 01:23:40.670
our own company? All those things, all those

01:23:40.670 --> 01:23:42.890
installations and all those repairs at those

01:23:42.890 --> 01:23:45.710
sites, those were all the things I did. It wasn't

01:23:45.710 --> 01:23:47.470
they did. And we worked at a lot of big companies

01:23:47.470 --> 01:23:51.170
here in Denver. They were our account. And so

01:23:51.170 --> 01:23:57.510
what I did is, with him and I, we formed a company.

01:23:57.550 --> 01:24:00.970
He was 60 % owner. I was 40. We probably got

01:24:00.970 --> 01:24:05.600
up to, I don't know, 15 employees. And where

01:24:05.600 --> 01:24:08.319
we set up our office was right where that other

01:24:08.319 --> 01:24:11.840
company had been in the same business park. And

01:24:11.840 --> 01:24:14.119
so, because it was close, you know, it was a

01:24:14.119 --> 01:24:18.279
good location off of 71st and Broadway is where

01:24:18.279 --> 01:24:22.699
we were. And so we were there for a number of

01:24:22.699 --> 01:24:26.380
years. Things were good. Our business was good.

01:24:26.420 --> 01:24:31.239
I was making good money. You know, I always have

01:24:31.239 --> 01:24:33.899
my house paid off, all our cars paid off type

01:24:33.899 --> 01:24:38.479
stuff. I'd never owned a new car. I'd always

01:24:38.479 --> 01:24:41.020
drove old cars because, hey, and so did my wife.

01:24:41.539 --> 01:24:44.720
And so I said, so things were good for us, making

01:24:44.720 --> 01:24:48.140
good money. And for whatever reason, my partner,

01:24:48.340 --> 01:24:52.020
his name was George, for whatever reason, he

01:24:52.020 --> 01:24:56.460
thought, hey, he should have all this. And that

01:24:56.460 --> 01:24:59.539
business, our run rate back then, we were probably

01:24:59.539 --> 01:25:02.779
doing maybe a million five a year. This isn't

01:25:02.779 --> 01:25:05.560
huge money. But this was in the 80s. It was good

01:25:05.560 --> 01:25:09.380
money. And so he just told me, he said, hey,

01:25:09.479 --> 01:25:12.640
I had like a meeting with all the employees.

01:25:12.699 --> 01:25:14.859
And he says, hey, I'm just letting you know I'm

01:25:14.859 --> 01:25:18.319
letting Bob go. And he's just an employee. He's

01:25:18.319 --> 01:25:21.619
not an owner. I was like, what? And I mean, it

01:25:21.619 --> 01:25:24.550
was. traumatic to say the least because geez

01:25:24.550 --> 01:25:31.329
what the heck here um so um went home didn't

01:25:31.329 --> 01:25:33.390
say anything to Joan that day the next day I

01:25:33.390 --> 01:25:35.569
said geez you know what happened to me yesterday

01:25:35.569 --> 01:25:38.710
and she was now she was working and we're the

01:25:38.710 --> 01:25:40.770
type of very conservative in how we live our

01:25:40.770 --> 01:25:44.090
life we always lived on only one of ours paycheck

01:25:44.090 --> 01:25:46.850
the other one we always saved and so Joan when

01:25:46.850 --> 01:25:50.600
she was there at AT &T you could save 10 % of

01:25:50.600 --> 01:25:53.720
your salary. And when you save 10 % of your salary,

01:25:53.859 --> 01:25:57.239
the company matched another 10%, and it was called

01:25:57.239 --> 01:25:59.619
ESOPs. Another one of those, even though it was

01:25:59.619 --> 01:26:02.720
a big company, and you think a big company owning

01:26:02.720 --> 01:26:05.680
all their stock is great, another one of those

01:26:05.680 --> 01:26:08.720
things that didn't work out so great. I'll tell

01:26:08.720 --> 01:26:11.159
you about that later. Anyways, so what happened

01:26:11.159 --> 01:26:16.920
was, my partner George, probably his best friend,

01:26:17.079 --> 01:26:20.000
and he was 10 years older than me, George. So

01:26:20.000 --> 01:26:23.039
at the time I was 35, George was probably 45.

01:26:23.520 --> 01:26:26.899
His best friend was named Lloyd, a really nice

01:26:26.899 --> 01:26:30.380
guy. He had his own business also in town, did

01:26:30.380 --> 01:26:32.800
a printer, more printer stuff, not really computer.

01:26:33.319 --> 01:26:37.020
And Lloyd called me and he says, you know, what

01:26:37.020 --> 01:26:39.619
George did to you was dirty. And he says, that

01:26:39.619 --> 01:26:42.720
wasn't right. And he says, And this was maybe

01:26:42.720 --> 01:26:45.020
like three days later. He says, I'm just not

01:26:45.020 --> 01:26:48.079
feeling good about this, and I just can't sit

01:26:48.079 --> 01:26:53.159
back. And he says, I'm going to pay for you to

01:26:53.159 --> 01:26:56.579
go talk to our corporate attorney. And I'll tell

01:26:56.579 --> 01:26:58.680
you what, for someone to go out and do that for

01:26:58.680 --> 01:27:01.100
you, especially with George's friend, not mine,

01:27:01.279 --> 01:27:03.579
and I'm thinking, geez, what am I going to do?

01:27:03.699 --> 01:27:06.100
These are the little things that you see God

01:27:06.100 --> 01:27:09.859
is looking out for you. At the time, I thought,

01:27:09.899 --> 01:27:12.880
boy, am I a lucky guy. But when you reflect back

01:27:12.880 --> 01:27:16.460
on life, that's just too coincidental. People

01:27:16.460 --> 01:27:19.739
just don't do that. Someone was thumping on him,

01:27:19.779 --> 01:27:22.119
you need to do this, and go do this for Bob.

01:27:22.600 --> 01:27:26.100
Anyways, he set me up with his attorney. His

01:27:26.100 --> 01:27:30.760
attorney's name was Jules Orenstein. Put a name.

01:27:31.899 --> 01:27:35.640
And talked to him a few times. He said, you know,

01:27:37.340 --> 01:27:39.260
And I went over all the facts up front. He says,

01:27:39.260 --> 01:27:41.960
if you want to go to trial on this, I'm sure

01:27:41.960 --> 01:27:43.739
they'll go to trial. You're going to spend a

01:27:43.739 --> 01:27:48.119
lot of money, but I'm sure we can win this. And

01:27:48.119 --> 01:27:53.420
so, you know, back in that time. And so what

01:27:53.420 --> 01:27:56.079
I did is I went off and did my own thing. I started

01:27:56.079 --> 01:27:58.699
another computer company. And my computer company

01:27:58.699 --> 01:28:01.640
I started was ProTech Computer Systems. And it's

01:28:01.640 --> 01:28:04.319
still in operation today. I don't. work there

01:28:04.319 --> 01:28:06.479
and I don't own anything there, but it's still

01:28:06.479 --> 01:28:09.100
there today. And I started that by myself in

01:28:09.100 --> 01:28:11.859
the house, my house, my basement. One of my guys

01:28:11.859 --> 01:28:13.739
that worked with me at the other company, he

01:28:13.739 --> 01:28:16.260
quit that company and that company's name was

01:28:16.260 --> 01:28:19.460
Phoenix. He quit, came to work with me. He was

01:28:19.460 --> 01:28:22.239
like my employee one. He was going to school.

01:28:22.399 --> 01:28:25.979
And what we did was is because I was the guy

01:28:25.979 --> 01:28:29.539
that sold all the service contracts. I was the

01:28:29.539 --> 01:28:31.319
guy when there was a problem, I fixed things.

01:28:31.880 --> 01:28:34.600
So what I did is I went to all the customers

01:28:34.600 --> 01:28:37.880
from the company that I started with my friend

01:28:37.880 --> 01:28:41.819
George, and I said, hey, George forced me out.

01:28:43.699 --> 01:28:45.399
If you want to stay with him, that's up to you.

01:28:45.520 --> 01:28:47.100
If you want to come with me, just come with me.

01:28:47.720 --> 01:28:50.300
I'm not going to be a lower price because I need

01:28:50.300 --> 01:28:52.920
to make money. This needs to be a professional

01:28:52.920 --> 01:28:55.560
relationship where it needs to be win -win, not

01:28:55.560 --> 01:28:58.399
only for you, but for me. I'm just starting off,

01:28:58.439 --> 01:29:00.060
but I'm letting you know that, hey, if you do

01:29:00.060 --> 01:29:03.420
this, I'll keep things going for you. And so

01:29:03.420 --> 01:29:07.380
I had a few companies jump ship right away. The

01:29:07.380 --> 01:29:09.239
majority of them, they didn't want to go with

01:29:09.239 --> 01:29:10.800
me because they thought, geez, what's going to

01:29:10.800 --> 01:29:14.140
happen? But what made sense was as time went

01:29:14.140 --> 01:29:17.609
on and they had a computer problem, they'd call

01:29:17.609 --> 01:29:20.409
me. And I'd say, well, geez, I'm not going to

01:29:20.409 --> 01:29:21.970
come over and fix their mess. If you want to

01:29:21.970 --> 01:29:24.229
sign up with me, I'll fix it. But you're going

01:29:24.229 --> 01:29:27.810
to have to be working with me. And probably,

01:29:28.069 --> 01:29:32.189
I'm not going to say every customer, but I would

01:29:32.189 --> 01:29:35.130
certainly say 90 % of them left him and went

01:29:35.130 --> 01:29:37.409
to work with me. Anyways, within three years,

01:29:37.470 --> 01:29:40.270
he went out of business. And obviously, my business

01:29:40.270 --> 01:29:44.689
was running. And we did go to court. At the time,

01:29:44.710 --> 01:29:48.779
I probably spent I don't know, probably $60 ,000.

01:29:49.220 --> 01:29:52.039
It doesn't sound like a big number today, but

01:29:52.039 --> 01:29:55.880
back then it was a big number. And he probably

01:29:55.880 --> 01:29:59.680
got a high -priced attorney, Denver attorney.

01:29:59.819 --> 01:30:02.319
He probably spent closer to $100 ,000. I won

01:30:02.319 --> 01:30:04.960
a judgment, and that's another thing when you

01:30:04.960 --> 01:30:08.920
win a judgment. And my judgment was 40 % of the

01:30:08.920 --> 01:30:11.479
company. They valued the company at the time.

01:30:11.479 --> 01:30:15.369
He ejected me not at the time. of the of this

01:30:15.369 --> 01:30:20.029
case and it was valued at that 360 ,000 he owed

01:30:20.029 --> 01:30:23.510
me at the time of this of our case when we went

01:30:23.510 --> 01:30:27.270
there he didn't have 360 ,000 in assets or anything

01:30:27.270 --> 01:30:31.890
and so um our attorney put a lien on his house

01:30:31.890 --> 01:30:33.970
and started you know clamping down on him on

01:30:33.970 --> 01:30:38.109
a few things and I told and you know obviously

01:30:38.109 --> 01:30:42.069
we won not a little but big time and so his wife

01:30:42.069 --> 01:30:44.949
was all upset called and threatened us. I mean,

01:30:44.970 --> 01:30:47.670
a whole list of things. Anyways, he finally called

01:30:47.670 --> 01:30:50.750
me and he says, hey, I really want to put this

01:30:50.750 --> 01:30:56.329
behind us. Sorry for what I did. And long story

01:30:56.329 --> 01:30:59.010
short, I mean, this was really a disaster and

01:30:59.010 --> 01:31:01.310
a mess. But long story short, I said, hey, listen,

01:31:02.090 --> 01:31:04.090
I'm not looking to drive you out of business.

01:31:04.449 --> 01:31:07.010
What do you think you want to do? And so he said,

01:31:07.130 --> 01:31:11.069
hey, I'll pay you $100 ,000. I wanted to make

01:31:11.069 --> 01:31:14.800
it sort of painful for him. And, um, anyways,

01:31:15.180 --> 01:31:19.579
uh, he paid me a hundred thousand over, uh, maybe

01:31:19.579 --> 01:31:22.619
six months. And I did get the, he wrote checks

01:31:22.619 --> 01:31:25.220
that weren't good at the time, you know, and

01:31:25.220 --> 01:31:26.800
I call him, Hey, when's the check going to be

01:31:26.800 --> 01:31:30.779
good? Otherwise, you know, but to wrap that up

01:31:30.779 --> 01:31:33.119
and that chapter up, did get my money from him.

01:31:33.640 --> 01:31:38.520
And shortly after he went bankrupt. And so I

01:31:38.520 --> 01:31:41.319
don't know. You know, that was his problem. But

01:31:41.319 --> 01:31:43.819
my business, when I left it, our run rate was

01:31:43.819 --> 01:31:46.699
a little over $6 million a year. So I've been

01:31:46.699 --> 01:31:50.479
retired now three years. I had about 12 employees.

01:31:50.779 --> 01:31:53.380
And with my employees, what I did is when I left,

01:31:53.399 --> 01:31:56.640
I signed my stock over to the employees. and

01:31:56.640 --> 01:31:58.979
I left them some money in the company so they

01:31:58.979 --> 01:32:01.800
could still be successful. And the business is

01:32:01.800 --> 01:32:03.699
still running today, and I hope things are good

01:32:03.699 --> 01:32:05.739
for them. Once in a while they call me and I

01:32:05.739 --> 01:32:08.220
go over and help them out. I don't get compensated

01:32:08.220 --> 01:32:10.300
at all. I just do it, you know, as goodwill.

01:32:12.479 --> 01:32:16.039
And, you know, I hope things stay well. I mean,

01:32:16.060 --> 01:32:18.100
it's a tough time right now to be in business,

01:32:18.140 --> 01:32:21.819
and living in Colorado, it's a tough time. It's

01:32:21.819 --> 01:32:24.840
not really a pro -business climate here in Colorado

01:32:24.840 --> 01:32:29.000
either. So that's tough. But, you know, we all

01:32:29.000 --> 01:32:33.039
got challenges. And all I'll say is I've had

01:32:33.039 --> 01:32:37.239
one, two, three, four. So that Phoenix, I started

01:32:37.239 --> 01:32:39.380
with that partner, George, after that. You know,

01:32:39.380 --> 01:32:41.479
I started ProTech on my own. It was a few years

01:32:41.479 --> 01:32:45.859
later. Had that since 1989. And I left three

01:32:45.859 --> 01:32:50.800
years ago. So I'd be 2022 was my last. day there.

01:32:51.300 --> 01:32:54.140
Um, and I was the sole owner, no partner, just,

01:32:54.279 --> 01:32:58.939
you know, myself and fronted cashflow to everything

01:32:58.939 --> 01:33:04.399
myself. Um, then my, I also, uh, had a business

01:33:04.399 --> 01:33:06.939
as an auto wrecking business to me. That was

01:33:06.939 --> 01:33:10.720
a nice business to have really, you know, different

01:33:10.720 --> 01:33:12.739
clientele, but you know, a nice business, really

01:33:12.739 --> 01:33:16.640
all cash business. I did some internet selling

01:33:16.640 --> 01:33:21.359
bandwidth, did that. with a friend, and that

01:33:21.359 --> 01:33:23.739
was good. We didn't do that really to make money,

01:33:23.800 --> 01:33:27.619
but just do some things. And so, you know, that's

01:33:27.619 --> 01:33:31.300
essentially, you know, where life has been and

01:33:31.300 --> 01:33:35.000
where life has taken me. And like I said, when

01:33:35.000 --> 01:33:38.279
I was probably maybe about 40 when I bought my

01:33:38.279 --> 01:33:41.189
first, when I bought this house, I was... 39,

01:33:41.489 --> 01:33:45.109
I had it built. And so when I turned 40, you

01:33:45.109 --> 01:33:47.109
start reflecting on life and I had a bunch of

01:33:47.109 --> 01:33:49.689
stuff. And I said, why do I have all this? And

01:33:49.689 --> 01:33:52.149
you become slaves to your stuff. So when you

01:33:52.149 --> 01:33:55.109
have a bunch of stuff, you know, you're worried

01:33:55.109 --> 01:33:57.550
about, you know, the upkeep, the maintenance,

01:33:57.890 --> 01:34:01.310
the taxes, insurance, just a bunch of stuff.

01:34:01.569 --> 01:34:04.029
And we had rental property too. And, you know,

01:34:04.050 --> 01:34:07.369
it just, so I make your life simple, get rid

01:34:07.369 --> 01:34:12.310
of all that. And Then you sort of get a, you

01:34:12.310 --> 01:34:16.810
look inward and you look at what's God, what's

01:34:16.810 --> 01:34:21.909
your role or what's your relationship with, you

01:34:21.909 --> 01:34:26.470
know, God. And then I think that's when you sort

01:34:26.470 --> 01:34:31.159
of simplify your life and you sort of look. And

01:34:31.159 --> 01:34:33.420
you sort of come to some realizations that a

01:34:33.420 --> 01:34:35.699
lot of this stuff, yeah, it's fun to have and

01:34:35.699 --> 01:34:38.920
have some good, but it's just really a boat anchor

01:34:38.920 --> 01:34:41.880
to you. And it's a ball and chain in your life.

01:34:41.979 --> 01:34:44.079
And do you really need or want that? Does that

01:34:44.079 --> 01:34:49.220
really make you more happy? So, and what, you

01:34:49.220 --> 01:34:52.539
know, some of the fruits of the Spirit is, you

01:34:52.539 --> 01:34:55.159
know, joy. We want peace in our life and we want

01:34:55.159 --> 01:35:00.479
joy. And those are things that... You can work

01:35:00.479 --> 01:35:04.600
on when you're not running in the rat race. Yeah.

01:35:04.939 --> 01:35:10.180
How did Joan feel about just the amount you were

01:35:10.180 --> 01:35:13.359
working throughout all of your career? I mean,

01:35:13.380 --> 01:35:15.600
I guess she was working as well, but you were

01:35:15.600 --> 01:35:18.979
working really long hours. So one of the things

01:35:18.979 --> 01:35:26.399
that they say equally yoked on things. So one

01:35:26.399 --> 01:35:29.590
of the things that people. sometimes don't really

01:35:29.590 --> 01:35:33.829
see or understand is if you have a lot of money

01:35:33.829 --> 01:35:38.909
and you have a lot of time, chances are you're

01:35:38.909 --> 01:35:41.409
going to get in trouble, bad things. You're going

01:35:41.409 --> 01:35:45.250
to think, you know, you see all these people

01:35:45.250 --> 01:35:48.569
with money, some of the poor choices they make.

01:35:49.989 --> 01:35:53.210
For me, because I was busy doing all these things,

01:35:53.329 --> 01:35:58.560
busy working and providing for family, I didn't

01:35:58.560 --> 01:36:01.159
have a lot of time to try to get into any. So

01:36:01.159 --> 01:36:07.779
I think it was okay. Did Joan like it? I think

01:36:07.779 --> 01:36:11.260
she was okay with it. It was just the way life

01:36:11.260 --> 01:36:15.460
was. We took vacations. My first vacation I took,

01:36:15.479 --> 01:36:22.739
we were probably later 20s. We had our house

01:36:22.739 --> 01:36:27.550
paid off. We had no car payments. And here's

01:36:27.550 --> 01:36:29.289
what it is. That's our first vacation we took.

01:36:30.829 --> 01:36:33.590
You know, my neighbors all had second mortgages

01:36:33.590 --> 01:36:36.390
on their house, all high car payments. That wasn't

01:36:36.390 --> 01:36:39.409
the way it was for us. I bought our first new

01:36:39.409 --> 01:36:45.689
car in probably 1996. Joan would probably remember.

01:36:46.210 --> 01:36:50.050
And it was a Toyota 4Runner and paid cash for

01:36:50.050 --> 01:36:53.550
it. I've never bought a car that I've not paid

01:36:53.550 --> 01:36:57.350
cash. And, you know, I do have a car that's,

01:36:57.350 --> 01:37:01.430
you know, I have a Lamborghini. And mine's, you

01:37:01.430 --> 01:37:03.210
know, one of the 12 -cylinder ones, so they're

01:37:03.210 --> 01:37:06.850
not the low -end cars to buy. And every car I

01:37:06.850 --> 01:37:09.329
ever bought, I always paid cash. I put my daughter

01:37:09.329 --> 01:37:13.430
through med school, paid money for that, cash

01:37:13.430 --> 01:37:19.560
for that. So all those things, I think. God gave

01:37:19.560 --> 01:37:22.000
me those opportunities. And I think one of the

01:37:22.000 --> 01:37:25.119
things God taught me early on was if you're making

01:37:25.119 --> 01:37:27.640
payments on something, you're a slave to that

01:37:27.640 --> 01:37:32.260
item. And if you're making payments on it, whatever

01:37:32.260 --> 01:37:34.619
the purchase price was that you paid for it,

01:37:34.659 --> 01:37:37.039
that's not what you're paying. That's not the

01:37:37.039 --> 01:37:41.619
amount you're paying for it. And so you hear

01:37:41.619 --> 01:37:44.260
some evangelists, as I'll call them, like Dave

01:37:44.260 --> 01:37:46.979
Ramsey and some others that talk about, hey,

01:37:47.060 --> 01:37:51.260
get out from under debt. it's a mindset, and

01:37:51.260 --> 01:37:56.500
it really is. And like I told you early on, I

01:37:56.500 --> 01:38:00.779
lived like a poor person, lived in my car. I

01:38:00.779 --> 01:38:04.579
took free showers at hotels. I bought my clothes

01:38:04.579 --> 01:38:09.539
at Goodwill. You've been to my house and you've

01:38:09.539 --> 01:38:12.899
sort of seen me, and I'm not a flashy dresser.

01:38:12.960 --> 01:38:16.479
I don't wear a lot of fancy clothes. And I'm

01:38:16.479 --> 01:38:19.760
okay with that. And what happens is the only

01:38:19.760 --> 01:38:22.560
one who cares what type of car you drive is you.

01:38:22.819 --> 01:38:25.979
No one else cares. No one else cares what year

01:38:25.979 --> 01:38:28.560
it is. They might walk up and say, cool car,

01:38:28.800 --> 01:38:31.520
but really they don't care because that's not

01:38:31.520 --> 01:38:35.220
theirs. The only one who cares or worries about

01:38:35.220 --> 01:38:37.000
that or the house you're living in or whatever

01:38:37.000 --> 01:38:39.859
is you, and you might think it's a big deal,

01:38:39.960 --> 01:38:45.300
but you know what? It's just stuff. When you're

01:38:45.300 --> 01:38:47.779
gone, like you said, with those poker chips,

01:38:47.920 --> 01:38:51.460
you just push them in and away you go. And when

01:38:51.460 --> 01:38:53.039
you're called, you don't know what day that's

01:38:53.039 --> 01:38:57.060
going to be either. So lots of, you know, life

01:38:57.060 --> 01:39:00.720
is what you make it. I did throw out that I had,

01:39:00.800 --> 01:39:03.880
there was five siblings in my family. Of the

01:39:03.880 --> 01:39:07.640
five, my sister was married for less than a year,

01:39:07.720 --> 01:39:10.300
never got remarried. She never had any kids.

01:39:11.260 --> 01:39:13.579
And I told you my three brothers, they've already

01:39:13.579 --> 01:39:17.359
passed. They all passed very early in life. My

01:39:17.359 --> 01:39:19.239
brother that was two years younger than me, he

01:39:19.239 --> 01:39:22.800
passed at age 32. My brother that was 10, and

01:39:22.800 --> 01:39:25.100
he died here in Aurora. It was tragic. He was

01:39:25.100 --> 01:39:30.819
shot and killed with a knife. My brother that

01:39:30.819 --> 01:39:35.640
was, and him, his name was David, that was lifestyle.

01:39:36.520 --> 01:39:40.340
And for what it was worth, And the police never

01:39:40.340 --> 01:39:44.260
found who did that. And at the time when he passed,

01:39:44.600 --> 01:39:47.199
you know, paid for his funeral, paid for a lot

01:39:47.199 --> 01:39:52.439
of things back then. The police just said, well,

01:39:52.479 --> 01:39:55.699
he was a bartender and he was doing drugs. And,

01:39:55.699 --> 01:39:57.739
you know, hey, even though he was killed in his

01:39:57.739 --> 01:40:00.420
own place, they did nothing. My next brother

01:40:00.420 --> 01:40:02.720
that died was my youngest brother, 10 years younger

01:40:02.720 --> 01:40:05.859
than me. He died right about the age of 40, never

01:40:05.859 --> 01:40:10.329
married either. He died in a plane crash. Had

01:40:10.329 --> 01:40:13.630
his girlfriend in the plane with him. He was

01:40:13.630 --> 01:40:17.170
a heavy drinker at his place where he worked.

01:40:17.170 --> 01:40:19.470
He had a refrigerator with a beer tap on it.

01:40:19.869 --> 01:40:25.050
And just as their lifestyle. And I used to talk

01:40:25.050 --> 01:40:28.909
to them about it, but when you're an adult, you

01:40:28.909 --> 01:40:32.130
make your own choices. So he died in a plane

01:40:32.130 --> 01:40:35.489
crash. He was a pilot. You know, that wasn't

01:40:35.489 --> 01:40:38.329
what his job was, but he had an airplane with

01:40:38.329 --> 01:40:41.050
a pilot. Unfortunately, he passed and so did

01:40:41.050 --> 01:40:44.170
his girlfriend that was in the plane. And that

01:40:44.170 --> 01:40:46.689
was sort of a mess here in Denver because he

01:40:46.689 --> 01:40:50.590
lived in Denver and it was just a mess. His name

01:40:50.590 --> 01:40:55.510
was Jim. My third brother was my middle, he was

01:40:55.510 --> 01:40:58.750
two brothers down from me, Mike, and he died.

01:40:59.189 --> 01:41:02.010
He felt life was meaningless in a lot of ways.

01:41:02.289 --> 01:41:04.529
I actually had him work for me for a short while,

01:41:04.750 --> 01:41:07.670
maybe about a year or so. His perspective on

01:41:07.670 --> 01:41:12.130
life was not straight. He felt really entitled

01:41:12.130 --> 01:41:14.390
on a lot of things. Anyways, long story short,

01:41:14.470 --> 01:41:19.210
he died at about the age of 50, maybe 55, and

01:41:19.210 --> 01:41:25.260
what he did is he committed suicide. But because

01:41:25.260 --> 01:41:28.260
he was so dead set against guns, he did it with

01:41:28.260 --> 01:41:30.479
a knife, killed himself with a knife. Pretty

01:41:30.479 --> 01:41:36.279
brutal. So, you know, you pay for funerals. I

01:41:36.279 --> 01:41:40.140
paid for three funerals. I paid for a private

01:41:40.140 --> 01:41:43.500
investigator on my brother with the plane crash.

01:41:43.899 --> 01:41:48.319
It was, you know, it's life. Everyone has a story.

01:41:49.140 --> 01:41:55.779
Nothing's easy. It's how we see things. You know,

01:41:55.800 --> 01:41:58.319
with those things happening to my brother, I

01:41:58.319 --> 01:42:01.619
look back today and reflect and say, even though

01:42:01.619 --> 01:42:04.220
when my dad told me to leave, I thought it was

01:42:04.220 --> 01:42:07.140
so terrible, really it was the best thing he

01:42:07.140 --> 01:42:10.920
did for me. Yeah. Because he saved my life. Had

01:42:10.920 --> 01:42:16.220
I been there when he was shooting people, chances

01:42:16.220 --> 01:42:21.789
are I'd be dead today. Chances are I wouldn't

01:42:21.789 --> 01:42:24.050
have had the life I have. And those are the things

01:42:24.050 --> 01:42:26.529
that all people should take time and reflect

01:42:26.529 --> 01:42:30.710
and reflect on the good things in life. The bad

01:42:30.710 --> 01:42:35.630
things, you know, we've been told different things.

01:42:35.710 --> 01:42:38.250
Maybe those are given to us, put in our life

01:42:38.250 --> 01:42:41.470
to show us how good the good things really are.

01:42:42.029 --> 01:42:46.390
And so what we need to do is we need to be thankful

01:42:46.390 --> 01:42:50.310
for the blessings we've all been given. Yeah,

01:42:50.310 --> 01:42:54.069
I think you say a lot that that's the way things

01:42:54.069 --> 01:42:56.409
are, but I think it also overlooks the fact that

01:42:56.409 --> 01:43:00.149
you're very resilient, I think. I think a lot

01:43:00.149 --> 01:43:03.029
of the stuff that you went through could have

01:43:03.029 --> 01:43:06.449
been very traumatic, probably was, and had a

01:43:06.449 --> 01:43:09.430
lot of impact on your life. And I think we just

01:43:09.430 --> 01:43:12.750
see a lot of young people who might have anxiety

01:43:12.750 --> 01:43:17.329
or are scared of certain things and think that

01:43:17.329 --> 01:43:20.960
the world sucks, right? And you could have had

01:43:20.960 --> 01:43:22.720
so many times in your life where you could have

01:43:22.720 --> 01:43:24.699
said the world sucks. It's not my fault. Cause

01:43:24.699 --> 01:43:26.880
it wasn't your fault. None of it was, it was

01:43:26.880 --> 01:43:29.859
all just life. What happens is called life. Yeah.

01:43:29.920 --> 01:43:33.060
You, you could have at any point taken the position

01:43:33.060 --> 01:43:36.460
of being a victim and just allowed it to, to

01:43:36.460 --> 01:43:38.500
take over your life. And somehow you did it,

01:43:38.539 --> 01:43:41.600
which I think is very impressive and is underspoken

01:43:41.600 --> 01:43:45.399
in the way you talk about it. Well, like I said,

01:43:48.520 --> 01:43:52.239
Life is different today. You hear the young people

01:43:52.239 --> 01:43:56.760
say they have anxiety over this. That wasn't

01:43:56.760 --> 01:43:59.199
a word that was used very often when I was growing

01:43:59.199 --> 01:44:05.199
up. Deal with it. And bad things happened not

01:44:05.199 --> 01:44:07.560
only to me but to other people, other people

01:44:07.560 --> 01:44:13.399
in school and ours where we were at. And it was,

01:44:13.539 --> 01:44:17.010
I'll just. A little side note, when I lived in

01:44:17.010 --> 01:44:19.869
New Jersey, I remember my dad was in the military.

01:44:19.970 --> 01:44:24.529
He was at Otis Air Force Base. And I was in elementary

01:44:24.529 --> 01:44:26.869
school, went there until I was sixth grade. In

01:44:26.869 --> 01:44:29.149
sixth grade, we moved then to North Dakota. But

01:44:29.149 --> 01:44:32.510
I remember someone died at the Vietnam War. I

01:44:32.510 --> 01:44:34.109
don't remember who it was, but it was a kid that

01:44:34.109 --> 01:44:36.590
was in my class in school. And I think they had

01:44:36.590 --> 01:44:40.750
three kids. Three... I don't remember, three

01:44:40.750 --> 01:44:43.630
kids. I know one of them was a boy. And someone

01:44:43.630 --> 01:44:45.970
died in a family where it sort of makes sense

01:44:45.970 --> 01:44:48.949
it was the dad. I think it was the mom that died.

01:44:49.130 --> 01:44:52.550
And the reason why I say that was the three kids

01:44:52.550 --> 01:44:55.470
got split up and they got put into someone else's

01:44:55.470 --> 01:44:58.529
houses and they all of a sudden were living in

01:44:58.529 --> 01:45:03.250
a different family. And it wasn't adoption and

01:45:03.250 --> 01:45:05.689
they weren't living with family. They were just

01:45:05.689 --> 01:45:08.409
living in someone else's house. And that's the

01:45:08.409 --> 01:45:11.729
way things were done back then. It's such a different

01:45:11.729 --> 01:45:16.949
time and the way things are. And I never knew

01:45:16.949 --> 01:45:18.630
what happened to any of those kids because when

01:45:18.630 --> 01:45:20.369
you're in the military and constantly moving,

01:45:20.569 --> 01:45:23.550
you know, your friends are just friends for a

01:45:23.550 --> 01:45:25.689
few years. But I know that on that situation.

01:45:26.090 --> 01:45:28.770
Whatever happened to them, if the parents or

01:45:28.770 --> 01:45:34.760
grandparents or whatever, but, you know. It's

01:45:34.760 --> 01:45:36.760
just a different time. And there wasn't any,

01:45:36.819 --> 01:45:40.119
well, I got anxiety, I have to counseling. We

01:45:40.119 --> 01:45:42.760
didn't have any of that. And if someone died,

01:45:42.859 --> 01:45:44.579
and I remember in high school someone did die,

01:45:44.739 --> 01:45:49.300
they went on the intercom and they said whatever

01:45:49.300 --> 01:45:54.239
it was, David died in a car accident or died

01:45:54.239 --> 01:45:57.100
in this or whatever it was. They just gave it

01:45:57.100 --> 01:45:59.500
a high level, and we're no longer going to see

01:45:59.500 --> 01:46:04.239
him in school. That's all that was said. There

01:46:04.239 --> 01:46:07.460
was no crying. There was no one, we're going

01:46:07.460 --> 01:46:09.359
to send, everyone's going to sign a sympathy

01:46:09.359 --> 01:46:13.760
card. We're going to do a vigil. It was just

01:46:13.760 --> 01:46:18.960
amazing how things were then as to how it is

01:46:18.960 --> 01:46:21.680
today. Yeah, and of course, I don't want to gloss

01:46:21.680 --> 01:46:25.319
over that. There is some value in people being

01:46:25.319 --> 01:46:28.199
able to be open about their emotions, be vulnerable,

01:46:28.359 --> 01:46:31.579
get therapy, and take all of these things in

01:46:31.579 --> 01:46:34.300
stride. But there is some portion of it where

01:46:34.300 --> 01:46:38.699
humanity in general just is resilient and some

01:46:38.699 --> 01:46:41.399
things don't always need to be dealt with. Some

01:46:41.399 --> 01:46:45.539
things can be taken, take the hit, and then go

01:46:45.539 --> 01:46:50.880
forward. If you look at what I always reflected

01:46:50.880 --> 01:46:55.340
on and thought, we all think whatever we're going

01:46:55.340 --> 01:46:57.840
through in life is difficult. We all do, and

01:46:57.840 --> 01:47:00.119
it's just human nature. But if you look at the

01:47:00.119 --> 01:47:02.449
guy next to you and you see that... the cross

01:47:02.449 --> 01:47:04.649
he's carrying, you think, geez, maybe it isn't

01:47:04.649 --> 01:47:07.569
so bad. And you might say, oh, geez, Bob, look

01:47:07.569 --> 01:47:10.090
how bad yours was. But I used to reflect back

01:47:10.090 --> 01:47:14.289
then, look at the Holocaust survivors. Choke

01:47:14.289 --> 01:47:16.710
up a little bit on some of that. Those people

01:47:16.710 --> 01:47:20.630
had horrendous, and it wasn't just something

01:47:20.630 --> 01:47:23.689
that happened for this moment or something that

01:47:23.689 --> 01:47:28.590
happened for a day. It went on for a long time.

01:47:28.699 --> 01:47:33.039
years they suffered family members killed and

01:47:33.039 --> 01:47:35.880
so my wife and i we've been to germany and been

01:47:35.880 --> 01:47:39.460
to dachau and saw some of that and it's just

01:47:39.460 --> 01:47:44.600
amazing how those people and you don't hear them

01:47:44.600 --> 01:47:48.840
uh shouting out or getting angry or anything

01:47:48.840 --> 01:47:51.899
and it's because like i told you at the time

01:47:51.899 --> 01:47:56.279
um those were bad things that happened but you

01:47:56.279 --> 01:47:58.819
don't want to ruin anyone else's life, so you

01:47:58.819 --> 01:48:02.020
just kept it to yourself. And those people had

01:48:02.020 --> 01:48:06.199
quite the cross to carry. And what we heard when

01:48:06.199 --> 01:48:09.680
we went to Germany from these people, it's just

01:48:09.680 --> 01:48:15.180
amazing how everyone in Germany knew what was

01:48:15.180 --> 01:48:17.819
going on. And we think on concentration camps,

01:48:17.939 --> 01:48:20.140
there's only a handful that we think about, but

01:48:20.140 --> 01:48:24.739
there was thousands of concentration camps. They

01:48:24.739 --> 01:48:28.020
didn't like Jewish criminals, et cetera, were

01:48:28.020 --> 01:48:30.399
involved in these. So it's really a horrendous

01:48:30.399 --> 01:48:32.960
time in society. And if we can learn anything

01:48:32.960 --> 01:48:35.760
from it, we can learn that, hey, we're all just

01:48:35.760 --> 01:48:38.239
people. We're all on this journey. None of us

01:48:38.239 --> 01:48:40.399
are better than anyone else. What we need to

01:48:40.399 --> 01:48:42.840
try to do is love and care for one another. And

01:48:42.840 --> 01:48:45.140
that is what Jesus preached the whole time he

01:48:45.140 --> 01:48:48.619
was here on this earth. When you think back at

01:48:48.619 --> 01:48:53.000
a high level, at the life you've lived, and I

01:48:53.000 --> 01:48:56.399
guess seeing the younger generation, modern context,

01:48:56.460 --> 01:49:00.579
what are some unexpected lessons that you think

01:49:00.579 --> 01:49:08.460
can be reapplied for the youth today? So back

01:49:08.460 --> 01:49:11.920
when we were younger, we sort of made our own

01:49:11.920 --> 01:49:17.239
fun times. So if we had a ball, it sounds so

01:49:17.239 --> 01:49:20.619
crazy, if we had a ball, that's all we had, and

01:49:20.619 --> 01:49:23.460
we'd all play with that ball. Kick it, throw

01:49:23.460 --> 01:49:27.340
it, you know, hit it up in the air. And we didn't

01:49:27.340 --> 01:49:29.359
all have baseball bats. Maybe it would be a stick

01:49:29.359 --> 01:49:34.000
or whatever. Today, we have too much, and the

01:49:34.000 --> 01:49:37.819
kids are too much, in my opinion, in their phones,

01:49:37.899 --> 01:49:44.500
their iPads, as opposed to interacting more with

01:49:44.500 --> 01:49:47.760
each other. Obviously, like I said, I have one

01:49:47.760 --> 01:49:51.039
daughter. She's now 41. We have two grandkids,

01:49:51.239 --> 01:49:54.159
two of her kids. One of them is 10, and the other

01:49:54.159 --> 01:49:57.279
is 6, 9, 9 and 6. She hasn't turned 10 yet. Going

01:49:57.279 --> 01:50:02.619
to do that soon. And what I see as parents, so

01:50:02.619 --> 01:50:05.300
from my standpoint, we have to raise our children

01:50:05.300 --> 01:50:09.140
to the best of our ability. I think parents try

01:50:09.140 --> 01:50:12.380
that. Maybe they're not perfect at it. But then

01:50:12.380 --> 01:50:14.880
again, as grandparents, we also need to take

01:50:14.880 --> 01:50:18.180
time and try to invest in our grandkids and try

01:50:18.180 --> 01:50:20.520
to teach them some things that they need to do

01:50:20.520 --> 01:50:25.159
and try to guide them on the path. And so whenever

01:50:25.159 --> 01:50:28.479
we're out there where we see it's of real value

01:50:28.479 --> 01:50:32.619
to be a church, a consistent churchgoer, we feel

01:50:32.619 --> 01:50:35.979
bad if we don't miss church, is what I'm going

01:50:35.979 --> 01:50:39.909
to say. So when we're back... visiting with our

01:50:39.909 --> 01:50:43.890
daughter and her family, they don't take the

01:50:43.890 --> 01:50:47.909
same approach, same value in going to services

01:50:47.909 --> 01:50:51.369
as we do. And so we always take the grandkids

01:50:51.369 --> 01:50:55.729
with us to church. And we're trying to get them

01:50:55.729 --> 01:50:58.670
to see that, but young people don't. It's hard

01:50:58.670 --> 01:51:00.810
for them, and it would be nice if they would.

01:51:01.369 --> 01:51:07.189
And though we're Catholic, like we saw, Jesus

01:51:07.189 --> 01:51:14.359
was Jewish. And St. Paul, he was also Jewish,

01:51:14.460 --> 01:51:16.739
but he was not the same Jewish faith as Jesus.

01:51:17.140 --> 01:51:21.319
There was Zealots. There was Sadducees. There

01:51:21.319 --> 01:51:26.199
was Pharisees. There was the Essenes. And John

01:51:26.199 --> 01:51:28.500
the Baptist, being the way he lived his life,

01:51:28.539 --> 01:51:32.699
he was probably of the Essene sect. So you look

01:51:32.699 --> 01:51:35.619
at all these different things, and I do think

01:51:35.619 --> 01:51:40.220
people need to look and, Try to understand that

01:51:40.220 --> 01:51:42.279
there is something bigger than just them in this

01:51:42.279 --> 01:51:48.079
place. We call earth. Yeah. We have a tradition

01:51:48.079 --> 01:51:50.960
on the podcast where at the end of the episode,

01:51:51.039 --> 01:51:54.279
we ask the guest to participate in a carrots

01:51:54.279 --> 01:51:56.720
and sticks challenge. And as you know, the podcast

01:51:56.720 --> 01:52:00.539
is about living courageously. And so the guest

01:52:00.539 --> 01:52:02.939
usually challenges themselves with a one to two

01:52:02.939 --> 01:52:05.939
week challenge, which is about living courageously.

01:52:06.600 --> 01:52:08.560
And that can be personal for yourself. It can

01:52:08.560 --> 01:52:10.819
be more broad. Maybe it's something you're avoiding.

01:52:11.960 --> 01:52:15.979
And then the stick is your own self -chosen punishment

01:52:15.979 --> 01:52:19.420
if you don't do it. And you can have some time

01:52:19.420 --> 01:52:22.039
to think if you want as well. I had a guest on

01:52:22.039 --> 01:52:24.520
who was like, I've been avoiding going to the

01:52:24.520 --> 01:52:27.140
gym for the past year and I'm starting to do

01:52:27.140 --> 01:52:31.039
that now. So he went three times for the following

01:52:31.039 --> 01:52:34.899
two weeks. Go to the gym. Yeah. But that's just

01:52:34.899 --> 01:52:37.239
like that can be impersonal. And then for some

01:52:37.239 --> 01:52:39.859
people, it's very personal. Like with one guest,

01:52:39.979 --> 01:52:42.979
we had her talk about how she's mean to herself.

01:52:43.180 --> 01:52:46.119
And her challenge was to pay attention to those

01:52:46.119 --> 01:52:48.359
moments when she has negative self -talk and

01:52:48.359 --> 01:52:52.720
write them down. Yeah. Good. So based on a challenge,

01:52:52.960 --> 01:52:57.680
I think what I'm going to try and do is I have

01:52:57.680 --> 01:53:00.960
a number of friends. that I haven't seen or visited

01:53:00.960 --> 01:53:05.020
with in some period of time. And what happens

01:53:05.020 --> 01:53:07.720
is, even though you're older and retired, you

01:53:07.720 --> 01:53:09.979
think, oh, I have all this time on my hands.

01:53:10.159 --> 01:53:12.800
But instead of getting things done quicker, for

01:53:12.800 --> 01:53:17.039
whatever reason, it seems to take longer. They

01:53:17.039 --> 01:53:20.520
always say, give busy people a task and they

01:53:20.520 --> 01:53:24.600
can get it done. So what my challenge is, is

01:53:24.600 --> 01:53:28.560
I'm going to try and visit some friends. that

01:53:28.560 --> 01:53:31.840
I've known their spouse has passed or other family

01:53:31.840 --> 01:53:34.239
members has passed, just to let them know I care.

01:53:34.399 --> 01:53:39.020
We do send cards, but I do feel that, just based

01:53:39.020 --> 01:53:41.699
on our little short talk here, I'm certainly

01:53:41.699 --> 01:53:44.119
going to do that. And this is a good time of

01:53:44.119 --> 01:53:46.500
year, and I have reached out to some of them

01:53:46.500 --> 01:53:54.180
already. But I do think we just need to share

01:53:54.180 --> 01:53:57.449
time. And that is probably the biggest gift you

01:53:57.449 --> 01:54:00.550
can give to anyone is some of your time. So that's

01:54:00.550 --> 01:54:03.350
what I'm going to try and do. I've belonged to

01:54:03.350 --> 01:54:08.770
a number of different men's groups. And I do

01:54:08.770 --> 01:54:12.010
think that's a good challenge for guys to do.

01:54:12.390 --> 01:54:14.710
And what it does is it helps keep you on the

01:54:14.710 --> 01:54:18.050
straight path. And it's really easy to get off

01:54:18.050 --> 01:54:22.659
the path because life gets messy. And life gets

01:54:22.659 --> 01:54:25.220
messy, our marriages, our relationships get messy.

01:54:25.720 --> 01:54:28.159
And I do think if you can stay on the right path,

01:54:28.359 --> 01:54:31.399
and men's groups do help you do that, and they

01:54:31.399 --> 01:54:34.779
do challenge you to stay there. So I'm going

01:54:34.779 --> 01:54:36.920
to say that's what I got. Okay. And what does

01:54:36.920 --> 01:54:38.960
that look like, a few phone calls, or does that

01:54:38.960 --> 01:54:40.119
look like planning out a date? Oh, I'm going

01:54:40.119 --> 01:54:42.579
to have a phone call. Okay, so ours look like

01:54:42.579 --> 01:54:44.520
I'm certainly going to reach out to these people.

01:54:44.600 --> 01:54:48.319
I have probably like three or four that I know

01:54:48.319 --> 01:54:52.260
of for sure. And I'm going to not only phone

01:54:52.260 --> 01:54:55.699
calls, but I'm going to meet them for lunch and

01:54:55.699 --> 01:55:00.060
let them know that, hey, I care. And, you know,

01:55:00.140 --> 01:55:03.460
hey, if you need something, give me a call. And

01:55:03.460 --> 01:55:05.979
that way I can stay in touch with them. And it

01:55:05.979 --> 01:55:09.020
is things we need to do more to one another and

01:55:09.020 --> 01:55:13.779
for one another. And it's things for whatever

01:55:13.779 --> 01:55:16.319
reason, we just don't. We just get comfortable.

01:55:17.460 --> 01:55:22.600
It's just. It's just surprising how life is,

01:55:22.680 --> 01:55:28.460
you know. So just in wrapping, summing up, when

01:55:28.460 --> 01:55:31.119
I was younger, I used to think, geez, when I'm

01:55:31.119 --> 01:55:34.899
20 or 21, life's going to be so much simpler

01:55:34.899 --> 01:55:37.779
for me. And then there was a whole list of other

01:55:37.779 --> 01:55:40.680
problems. And I did go to college, and I did

01:55:40.680 --> 01:55:42.260
get a four -year degree. I did that at night

01:55:42.260 --> 01:55:45.770
school. My wife and I did it together. I graduated

01:55:45.770 --> 01:55:48.850
at age 40 with that. But I used to think life

01:55:48.850 --> 01:55:52.250
was so much simpler. Then I thought, well, maybe

01:55:52.250 --> 01:55:55.710
when I get to be 40, it's got to be easier. Well,

01:55:55.750 --> 01:55:57.510
then maybe once my daughter is out of the house.

01:55:57.609 --> 01:56:02.989
It's got to be. But for some reason, life never

01:56:02.989 --> 01:56:06.229
gets what I will call simple. Life is what I

01:56:06.229 --> 01:56:10.329
will call messy, and there is always challenges

01:56:10.329 --> 01:56:14.390
day to day. So not every day is a sunny day,

01:56:14.569 --> 01:56:17.310
even though some are and enjoy those. And those

01:56:17.310 --> 01:56:20.289
are the days that are blessings and make the

01:56:20.289 --> 01:56:24.989
most of them. But even at my age, I'll be 70

01:56:24.989 --> 01:56:29.609
here in a few months, we're all faced with challenges.

01:56:29.649 --> 01:56:31.729
And the challenges you're faced when you get

01:56:31.729 --> 01:56:34.449
older is generally health challenges. And it's

01:56:34.449 --> 01:56:37.489
surprising how those challenges... where you

01:56:37.489 --> 01:56:39.270
never thought of them when you were younger,

01:56:39.390 --> 01:56:41.989
is now challenges that are real in your life

01:56:41.989 --> 01:56:46.409
today that require attention. But I'm going to

01:56:46.409 --> 01:56:49.729
certainly reach out to those friends. I have

01:56:49.729 --> 01:56:52.010
one whose name is Craig, one whose name is Sig.

01:56:54.350 --> 01:56:56.789
We have a lady friend named Marge that her husband

01:56:56.789 --> 01:57:00.649
had passed. Craig, his wife, had passed. And

01:57:00.649 --> 01:57:05.600
make sure and let them know that I care. Spend

01:57:05.600 --> 01:57:07.920
time with them. That's awesome. What is your

01:57:07.920 --> 01:57:10.739
stick, your self -chosen punishment if you don't

01:57:10.739 --> 01:57:15.119
do it? I'm a driven person, so it's going to

01:57:15.119 --> 01:57:17.920
happen. You could say whatever. But it won't

01:57:17.920 --> 01:57:19.579
matter because you'll do it. I'm going to matter

01:57:19.579 --> 01:57:23.180
and do it. I don't know. I'll say penance. I'll

01:57:23.180 --> 01:57:26.180
say do the rosary. But, you know, I don't consider

01:57:26.180 --> 01:57:28.159
that penance because my wife and I, we try to

01:57:28.159 --> 01:57:33.159
do that daily anyways. But we'll say that. Okay.

01:57:33.399 --> 01:57:36.350
Cool. Well, where can people find you if you

01:57:36.350 --> 01:57:39.010
want to be found, if you want people to talk

01:57:39.010 --> 01:57:41.850
to you? Oh, you mean on, give them an email address?

01:57:42.010 --> 01:57:45.670
Yeah, social, email. I am on Facebook, but I

01:57:45.670 --> 01:57:48.729
don't post much. I'm probably the wrong generation

01:57:48.729 --> 01:57:54.189
for that. I am in some car hobbies. And so if

01:57:54.189 --> 01:57:55.829
you want to find me, I could give you my email

01:57:55.829 --> 01:57:57.710
address. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Okay.

01:57:58.970 --> 01:58:01.829
My email address is pretty simple. It's Bob,

01:58:01.949 --> 01:58:06.520
B -O -B. And my domain name for the email is

01:58:06.520 --> 01:58:10.199
one I use for my company, ProTech. So it is P

01:58:10.199 --> 01:58:18.800
-R -O -T -S -Y -S .com. So Bob at the first four

01:58:18.800 --> 01:58:21.119
characters in the word ProTech, that's P -R -O

01:58:21.119 --> 01:58:24.460
-T, the first three in the word system, altogether

01:58:24.460 --> 01:58:29.600
.com. So Bob at ProTechSys .com. Awesome. So,

01:58:29.680 --> 01:58:33.060
yeah, hopefully. And back in the day when you

01:58:33.060 --> 01:58:36.079
had computers way back when, domain names couldn't

01:58:36.079 --> 01:58:38.399
be greater than the seven characters. They all

01:58:38.399 --> 01:58:41.920
had to be a dot com. And so they were all, today

01:58:41.920 --> 01:58:44.340
it's all changed, but I've had that email address

01:58:44.340 --> 01:58:51.380
since 1989. Dang. Yeah, so that's what it is.

01:58:51.520 --> 01:58:53.479
So if someone wants to reach out to me, and anyone

01:58:53.479 --> 01:58:56.659
who does, I'll certainly respond. Awesome. Well,

01:58:56.720 --> 01:58:58.239
thanks for coming on, Bob. This has been great.

01:58:58.460 --> 01:59:03.159
Thank you. Yeah, thanks for coming by and visiting.