WEBVTT 00:00:11.720 --> 00:00:15.060 Breaking free from the chains of the past Where 00:00:15.060 --> 00:00:18.820 truth moves faster than a Holstein calf No law 00:00:18.820 --> 00:00:21.660 waiting on some printed page We're charting new 00:00:21.660 --> 00:00:25.300 ground in the digital age From genomic codes 00:00:25.300 --> 00:00:29.120 to robot facts We cut through the noise, no hold 00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:32.460 them back not your daddy's dairy news tonight 00:00:32.460 --> 00:01:04.439 we're sparking That was Dr. Jeremy Hill, Fonterra's 00:01:04.439 --> 00:01:07.120 chief science and technology officer and author 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:10.060 of the book Legendary. If dairy was invented 00:01:10.060 --> 00:01:12.540 today by some agri -tech startup, it would be 00:01:12.540 --> 00:01:14.659 seen as the greatest blockbuster in the history 00:01:14.659 --> 00:01:17.799 of food. Hill said that. And the data backs him 00:01:17.799 --> 00:01:21.239 up. The full written feature is live now on thebullvine 00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:25.090 .com with the complete... DIAAS Protein Quality 00:01:25.090 --> 00:01:28.349 Table, the demand numbers from CoBank, and the 00:01:28.349 --> 00:01:31.030 new U .S. Dietary Guidelines, and what all of 00:01:31.030 --> 00:01:34.069 this means for your operation. If you think the 00:01:34.069 --> 00:01:36.269 dairy industry needs to get louder about its 00:01:36.269 --> 00:01:39.230 own protein quality story, share this episode 00:01:39.230 --> 00:01:42.469 with your MP, your congressman, or the next person 00:01:42.469 --> 00:01:45.450 who tells you oat milk is just as good. Whole 00:01:45.450 --> 00:01:49.430 milk scores 108. Oat scores 44. That's not a 00:01:49.430 --> 00:01:53.010 gap. That's a canyon. This is the bullvine. Cool. 00:01:53.129 --> 00:01:56.689 So let's begin with you've described the moment 00:01:56.689 --> 00:01:59.730 you chose dairy science over continuing a medical 00:01:59.730 --> 00:02:02.969 research or simply turning right instead of left 00:02:02.969 --> 00:02:06.849 at Massey University. Take me back to the crossroads. 00:02:07.090 --> 00:02:09.750 What was actually going through your mind? What 00:02:09.750 --> 00:02:12.689 did you see in dairy that you didn't see in medicine? 00:02:12.750 --> 00:02:17.550 And why did you choose dairy? Well, in reality. 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:21.840 I started my first postdoc for the dairy industry 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:25.860 in the UK. So I did my PhD in the UK in medical 00:02:25.860 --> 00:02:31.340 research. But I had a year -long honours project 00:02:31.340 --> 00:02:33.639 while I was doing my degree, which looked at 00:02:33.639 --> 00:02:36.879 the use of Candida cavatidae, which is an indigenous 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:41.159 yeast, and trying to modify that yeast using... 00:02:43.340 --> 00:02:45.879 various stone age techniques compared to today 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:49.520 so that it would produce a fat profile more similar 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:53.340 to cocoa butter using whey as a growth feedstock, 00:02:53.500 --> 00:03:01.580 right? And when I finished my PhD, the department 00:03:01.580 --> 00:03:05.300 I did my PhD in mainly did microbial biotechnology 00:03:05.300 --> 00:03:08.879 and biochemistry. The lab I did my PhD in was 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:10.560 a bit of an exception in doing medical research. 00:03:11.349 --> 00:03:13.349 So the head of the department said, hey, we've 00:03:13.349 --> 00:03:17.490 got this postdoc we'd like you to do. And it's 00:03:17.490 --> 00:03:21.710 based on your honest project. So I. I agree to 00:03:21.710 --> 00:03:25.849 do that. And that was my first foray into the 00:03:25.849 --> 00:03:28.169 New Zealand dairy industry. And it's essentially 00:03:28.169 --> 00:03:30.669 a forerunner of what you call precision fermentation 00:03:30.669 --> 00:03:34.710 today. Although, you know, obviously with, you 00:03:34.710 --> 00:03:36.949 know, techniques that were 20 or 30 years ago, 00:03:36.990 --> 00:03:42.770 the. That gave me a bit of knowledge of the dairy 00:03:42.770 --> 00:03:45.110 industry, but to be quite frank, I saw that as 00:03:45.110 --> 00:03:51.389 just a temporary gig before I would move back 00:03:51.389 --> 00:03:54.050 into medical research and then went in pursuit 00:03:54.050 --> 00:03:59.810 doing other postdocs, basically looking at this 00:03:59.810 --> 00:04:03.389 area I specialised in, which was the impact of 00:04:03.389 --> 00:04:08.210 a particular drug on the enzymes involved in 00:04:08.210 --> 00:04:12.659 the. degradation of alcohol in the liver. Anyway, 00:04:12.759 --> 00:04:16.360 that took me to Massey University, still doing 00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:18.300 the liver research, which happens to be across 00:04:18.300 --> 00:04:21.480 the road from what has become the Fonterra Research 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:24.699 and Development Centre. So that road is, you 00:04:24.699 --> 00:04:26.779 turn right to go to the Fonterra Research and 00:04:26.779 --> 00:04:29.480 Development Centre and left to go to Massey University. 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:32.500 Now, when I was at Massey, the Fonterra Research 00:04:32.500 --> 00:04:34.519 and Development Centre had a lot more equipment. 00:04:34.910 --> 00:04:37.629 the Massey University that I could utilise because 00:04:37.629 --> 00:04:39.750 of my relationships, actually the strong relationship 00:04:39.750 --> 00:04:41.889 between Massey and the centre anyway, but certainly 00:04:41.889 --> 00:04:44.910 the history I had with the dairy industry at 00:04:44.910 --> 00:04:47.189 that point. And so I went over there to use some 00:04:47.189 --> 00:04:49.790 of the equipment for my own research that I was 00:04:49.790 --> 00:04:52.670 doing at Massey. And I had coffees with people, 00:04:52.750 --> 00:04:55.069 got to know people a lot better. And the head 00:04:55.069 --> 00:04:57.550 of the protein chemistry department said, hey. 00:04:58.980 --> 00:05:02.079 We've got a job in a scientist role in protein 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:04.379 chemistry. Would you be interested in it? Well, 00:05:04.459 --> 00:05:06.560 my postdoc was coming to an end at that point. 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:10.019 And my wife had got a temporary teaching job 00:05:10.019 --> 00:05:12.959 in a museum at the time. Well, we'll give it 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:14.519 another couple of years because we quite like 00:05:14.519 --> 00:05:18.220 the lifestyle. And I thought the projects looked 00:05:18.220 --> 00:05:20.259 interesting. I thought I'd learned some new things. 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:22.779 But again, with the intention of eventually going 00:05:22.779 --> 00:05:27.439 back into medical research. i think 35 36 years 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:31.079 later i've probably uh i've become a dairy person 00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:35.199 um and it and it really you know turning right 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:37.899 was absolutely the right thing to do for me because 00:05:37.899 --> 00:05:41.220 i have learned so much at the opportunities to 00:05:41.220 --> 00:05:43.699 be involved in so much meaningful work through 00:05:43.699 --> 00:05:46.699 doing that uh progressed out of research into 00:05:46.699 --> 00:05:49.519 into research leadership and then executive research 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:53.509 and science leadership and not just with Fonterra, 00:05:53.550 --> 00:05:55.610 but obviously getting some opportunities on a 00:05:55.610 --> 00:05:59.610 global basis as well. Now, you mentioned about 00:05:59.610 --> 00:06:03.069 the studying of the biochemistry with the function 00:06:03.069 --> 00:06:06.970 in the liver and the function in disease. How 00:06:06.970 --> 00:06:10.110 do you feel that that has affected or changed 00:06:10.110 --> 00:06:13.709 or you bring a different perspective to dairy? 00:06:13.790 --> 00:06:15.790 Instead of saying, hey, it's a commodity, it's 00:06:15.790 --> 00:06:18.129 this, you come at it with a different lens. How 00:06:18.129 --> 00:06:20.230 has that affected your career? How do you feel 00:06:20.230 --> 00:06:24.389 that's helped? Although I'm very fortunate to 00:06:24.389 --> 00:06:27.029 have worked in a very broad range of areas that 00:06:27.029 --> 00:06:30.310 lets me look at opportunities and problems through 00:06:30.310 --> 00:06:33.110 a number of lenses. And I think that's some of 00:06:33.110 --> 00:06:35.490 the value I bring, but also a privilege that 00:06:35.490 --> 00:06:39.009 I've had to do that. And that includes looking 00:06:39.009 --> 00:06:43.829 at the things with that, if you want, biochemical 00:06:43.829 --> 00:06:49.009 or medical -facing lens. And again, it... you 00:06:49.009 --> 00:06:53.149 know the dairy is the world's number one commodity 00:06:53.149 --> 00:06:55.810 by value so there's no question about that but 00:06:55.810 --> 00:06:59.069 it's also the number one source of a wide range 00:06:59.069 --> 00:07:01.250 of nutrients which you know we we've published 00:07:01.250 --> 00:07:04.689 widely on and it's also got a lot of bioactive 00:07:04.689 --> 00:07:08.629 you know compounds you know for example lactoferrin 00:07:08.629 --> 00:07:11.569 which has got you know antiviral antibacterial 00:07:11.569 --> 00:07:14.649 immune stimulatory gut development and so on 00:07:14.649 --> 00:07:17.990 and so forth And when I say to people, we shouldn't 00:07:17.990 --> 00:07:20.509 be surprised at this because 60 million years 00:07:20.509 --> 00:07:25.069 of evolution has evolved this food to be the 00:07:25.069 --> 00:07:28.410 sole source of food when we're at most vulnerable 00:07:28.410 --> 00:07:33.610 from a developmental perspective of body, mind 00:07:33.610 --> 00:07:36.670 and everything. So it shouldn't be surprising, 00:07:36.790 --> 00:07:40.610 right? That it's full of these great nutrients 00:07:40.610 --> 00:07:47.129 and bioactivities. And you mentioned that, and 00:07:47.129 --> 00:07:49.129 you mentioned I go through and in doing the homework 00:07:49.129 --> 00:07:52.069 here, I see a lot of achievements that you've 00:07:52.069 --> 00:07:57.189 achieved over the years in a few different areas. 00:07:57.470 --> 00:08:00.589 But when you look back at your career, you look 00:08:00.589 --> 00:08:03.189 at what you've been able to achieve, what would 00:08:03.189 --> 00:08:05.430 you say is the one that you would say that you 00:08:05.430 --> 00:08:07.709 most want to be remembered for or you feel is 00:08:07.709 --> 00:08:09.629 the most impactful of the achievements you've 00:08:09.629 --> 00:08:12.350 been able to do while working in different groups 00:08:12.350 --> 00:08:17.420 and aspects? It's actually the people. So, you 00:08:17.420 --> 00:08:19.560 know, I've achieved quite a lot in terms of the 00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:21.879 things that I've been associated with. Quite 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:23.980 frankly, I've had a big hand in some of them, 00:08:23.980 --> 00:08:26.800 less in others. It's always a team effort these 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:30.019 days in most things you do. But the real legacy 00:08:30.019 --> 00:08:32.679 is the impact that you've had on the people and 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:35.340 perhaps the way they're thinking in the future. 00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:42.320 My son, when he was young, said to me, he was 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:45.460 a really, really good swimmer. I mean, setting 00:08:45.460 --> 00:08:49.500 New Zealand records and numerous titles. And 00:08:49.500 --> 00:08:52.980 he was only in his mid -teens, perhaps 14 or 00:08:52.980 --> 00:08:56.120 15. He said to me, you know, Dad, he said, all 00:08:56.120 --> 00:08:58.000 the sports people have forgotten, he said, but 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:00.340 those scientists that have something named after 00:09:00.340 --> 00:09:02.820 them, they're remembered. I thought, oh, my goodness, 00:09:02.980 --> 00:09:08.019 he wants to be Dalton or Newton or Kelvin. And 00:09:08.019 --> 00:09:11.379 I thought, wow, what a mature thing to say. Now, 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:14.899 joking aside, he's actually now graduated with 00:09:14.899 --> 00:09:16.799 two degrees. He's got a degree in biotechnology 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:21.080 and a degree in chemical engineering. So I'm 00:09:21.080 --> 00:09:23.299 going to have to leave it to him if there's ever 00:09:23.299 --> 00:09:26.159 going to be a unit called a hill. But I do, my 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:28.480 cheeks swell up when I think about what that 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:32.929 might be, because if innovation... is a little 00:09:32.929 --> 00:09:35.509 bit of inspiration followed by a lot of perspiration, 00:09:35.649 --> 00:09:38.269 which quite frankly it is, then perhaps a unit 00:09:38.269 --> 00:09:40.710 of hill could be their level of perspiration 00:09:40.710 --> 00:09:46.690 associated with innovating. Just like your family, 00:09:46.769 --> 00:09:52.669 your son or your kids, your biggest legacy is 00:09:52.669 --> 00:09:54.870 what you leave, the impact that you have on the 00:09:54.870 --> 00:09:58.350 people, right? Proud of what I've done in milk, 00:09:58.370 --> 00:10:00.450 proud of what I've done in manufacturing products, 00:10:00.750 --> 00:10:04.289 food safety, insurance, etc. But quite frankly, 00:10:04.350 --> 00:10:05.909 at the end of the day, those are the biggest 00:10:05.909 --> 00:10:09.669 impacts anybody can have. Technology patents 00:10:09.669 --> 00:10:13.710 fundamentally changed quick service and fast 00:10:13.710 --> 00:10:18.649 food industry sources products. What would you 00:10:18.649 --> 00:10:26.490 say helped? I'm reading, as I said. How has that 00:10:26.490 --> 00:10:30.210 changed the artisan cheese? I've got to make 00:10:30.210 --> 00:10:32.429 a note of the time because I've got to make an 00:10:32.429 --> 00:10:38.429 edit because I'm humbled. Some would say you've 00:10:38.429 --> 00:10:41.470 turned artisan cheese craft into material science. 00:10:41.750 --> 00:10:47.549 How would you respond to those? How would you 00:10:47.549 --> 00:10:50.590 respond to those? That it's not a loss, but rather 00:10:50.590 --> 00:10:56.379 a gain. Okay. It's not the first time I've been 00:10:56.379 --> 00:11:00.320 asked a similar question. So Ontario's work on 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:03.860 cheese technology and turning that as much into 00:11:03.860 --> 00:11:07.519 a science based on fundamental principles as 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:12.720 an art or an artisan approach is important because 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:17.940 we can produce consistent, safe product doing 00:11:17.940 --> 00:11:22.320 that. That provides choice to consumers to buy 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:25.399 that product. it doesn't stop them buying artisan 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:28.100 produced cheese right they've still got the choice 00:11:28.100 --> 00:11:30.740 of doing that right so at the end of the day 00:11:30.740 --> 00:11:33.700 i think we added to the capability of the world 00:11:33.700 --> 00:11:37.059 in cheese and certainly we exploited right but 00:11:37.059 --> 00:11:39.279 at the end of the day people you know we've not 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:41.860 forced others to use our technology in fact we 00:11:41.860 --> 00:11:44.600 don't for some of it it's it's our trade secrets 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:47.200 as well as our patents right so it's not necessarily 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:50.100 something others can use uh they can use their 00:11:50.100 --> 00:11:52.080 own technology and of course it comes down to 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:56.549 choice So I don't think we've forced the world 00:11:56.549 --> 00:12:00.049 to adopt our technology at all. Right. We think 00:12:00.049 --> 00:12:02.529 it's brought some great advantages, both for, 00:12:02.629 --> 00:12:06.289 you know, efficiency of manufacture, consistency 00:12:06.289 --> 00:12:09.450 of manufacture, safety of manufacture, but also, 00:12:09.529 --> 00:12:15.590 you know, consumer choice. Now, you mentioned 00:12:15.590 --> 00:12:17.330 and you said earlier about some of the work you've 00:12:17.330 --> 00:12:20.049 done outside of Fonterra. One of the neat things. 00:12:20.570 --> 00:12:24.149 I saw was that you were one of the first or I 00:12:24.149 --> 00:12:29.409 think even the only IDF president from New Zealand. 00:12:29.649 --> 00:12:33.250 And so it's kind of neat. But in looking in some 00:12:33.250 --> 00:12:36.250 of the stuff you did with IDF, I noticed the 00:12:36.250 --> 00:12:38.970 DIAS protein quality standard that you helped 00:12:38.970 --> 00:12:42.490 champion while you're there. A lot of people 00:12:42.490 --> 00:12:46.769 kind of credit that for the greatest tool against 00:12:46.769 --> 00:12:51.220 plant based competitors. it's been described 00:12:51.220 --> 00:12:53.899 as saying you didn't win the war the nutrition 00:12:53.899 --> 00:12:57.539 war you helped change the battlefield um in doing 00:12:57.539 --> 00:12:59.539 that what was the strategy from the beginning 00:12:59.539 --> 00:13:02.379 how do you respond to the charge that the timing 00:13:02.379 --> 00:13:06.159 uh or how do you respond to what it did and the 00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:10.240 timing of it and what it's contributed so um 00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:15.059 i think it it it's rather convenient that it's 00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:18.980 available as the plant -based movement had started 00:13:18.980 --> 00:13:21.220 to take off and alternatives etc but actually 00:13:21.220 --> 00:13:24.460 the work started 15 to 20 years ago so it was 00:13:24.460 --> 00:13:28.379 so it's not something that is sort of being cooked 00:13:28.379 --> 00:13:30.960 up or delivered you know in a short period of 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:33.379 time it's involved a lot of work right and it's 00:13:33.379 --> 00:13:36.419 it's something that uh we supported through a 00:13:36.419 --> 00:13:38.700 partnership with the riddett institute at massey 00:13:38.700 --> 00:13:41.740 university uh that we made part of a big program 00:13:41.740 --> 00:13:44.139 of work that we did as part of the public private 00:13:44.139 --> 00:13:46.000 partnership with the new zealand government called 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:47.720 the primary growth partnership which developed 00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:53.980 it further we then uh sponsored it into the global 00:13:53.980 --> 00:13:57.240 dairy platform to globalize this uh approach 00:13:57.899 --> 00:13:59.860 And it requires a lot of work because you've 00:13:59.860 --> 00:14:02.259 got to for it to be credible. It can't just be 00:14:02.259 --> 00:14:05.100 this is how it works with milk. You have to do 00:14:05.100 --> 00:14:08.559 it across different sources of food and you have 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:11.299 to move it from, you know, if you want animal 00:14:11.299 --> 00:14:14.539 models into into confirm that it works from a 00:14:14.539 --> 00:14:17.100 human nutrition perspective, et cetera, et cetera. 00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:19.720 That takes a lot of time. It's also expensive. 00:14:20.379 --> 00:14:22.440 It's something you do in collaboration with not 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:24.259 just the rest of the global dairy sector, but 00:14:24.259 --> 00:14:26.039 what you would do with the food industry overall. 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:30.860 That took a lot of time. So really, the timing 00:14:30.860 --> 00:14:35.179 of its arrival and being able to be used to to 00:14:35.179 --> 00:14:38.480 provide a more accurate assessment of the quality 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:41.200 of at least the protein component that is in 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:46.029 is in foods and that that. is useful today is 00:14:46.029 --> 00:14:48.850 is is not that it was planned to be available 00:14:48.850 --> 00:14:51.509 today it's actually evolved over a very long 00:14:51.509 --> 00:14:54.970 period of time through quality science discussions 00:14:54.970 --> 00:14:57.490 with the food and agricultural organization of 00:14:57.490 --> 00:15:02.450 the un etc another key topic is sustainability 00:15:02.450 --> 00:15:06.570 uh one of the key parts of that is methane methane 00:15:06.570 --> 00:15:09.750 vaccines and i read a quarter you were saying 00:15:09.750 --> 00:15:12.690 that how methane vaccines are a game changer 00:15:13.070 --> 00:15:15.429 for our industries but some people are critical 00:15:15.429 --> 00:15:18.169 of the vaccines and the effect that they will 00:15:18.169 --> 00:15:21.750 have what are your comments or how do you answer 00:15:21.750 --> 00:15:25.429 the charge that this is a beneficial progress 00:15:25.429 --> 00:15:31.129 versus a bigger issue for the industry um well 00:15:31.129 --> 00:15:34.509 the advantage of a vaccine is its ubiquity of 00:15:34.509 --> 00:15:38.289 use so um Many of the other solutions may be 00:15:38.289 --> 00:15:41.750 more specific to a species or a particular farming 00:15:41.750 --> 00:15:44.669 system. So they're very context specific. So 00:15:44.669 --> 00:15:46.990 the vaccine has the potential to work across 00:15:46.990 --> 00:15:49.450 different ruminant species. So if you think in 00:15:49.450 --> 00:15:52.830 dry stock as well as dairy, it also has the opportunity, 00:15:52.909 --> 00:15:55.029 you know, the potential to work in, you know, 00:15:55.029 --> 00:15:58.509 scaled farming systems. So, you know, the, you 00:15:58.509 --> 00:16:02.759 know, the big. scale pasture systems that we 00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:05.080 have here in New Zealand or even dry stock based, 00:16:05.220 --> 00:16:07.419 you know, containment systems elsewhere in the 00:16:07.419 --> 00:16:09.440 world. I mean, but it can work in smallholder 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:11.440 systems and there's very, very few solutions 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:15.100 for smallholders, you know. As you're probably 00:16:15.100 --> 00:16:17.860 aware, one of the big vaccine, animal vaccine 00:16:17.860 --> 00:16:23.179 developing entities is in India and sponsored 00:16:23.179 --> 00:16:25.480 through the Indian, National Indian Dairy Development 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:31.970 Body. uh you know i i see that as as why a vaccine 00:16:31.970 --> 00:16:36.029 has a powerful potential probably not the only 00:16:36.029 --> 00:16:38.830 tool right we we may need a number of tools to 00:16:38.830 --> 00:16:40.970 stack them and of course in concert with practice 00:16:40.970 --> 00:16:44.710 improvements um but i i think that the root of 00:16:44.710 --> 00:16:46.830 this though is is is something else i'm particularly 00:16:46.830 --> 00:16:49.029 passionate about is is the role of dairy and 00:16:49.029 --> 00:16:52.350 nutrition and the fact that it plays such an 00:16:52.350 --> 00:16:55.899 important role nutritionally in society Also, 00:16:55.980 --> 00:16:59.500 in terms of economics and livelihoods, and, you 00:16:59.500 --> 00:17:03.779 know, not my figures, you know, when we did the 00:17:03.779 --> 00:17:06.460 Dairy Declaration of Rotterdam, the figures from 00:17:06.460 --> 00:17:09.279 FAO that there's probably a billion livelihoods 00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:12.779 supported to a large extent globally by dairy. 00:17:13.019 --> 00:17:18.319 I mean, that's huge. But also, you know, it's 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:21.019 the number one source of half a dozen nutrients 00:17:21.019 --> 00:17:23.180 in our diet, essential nutrients, right, not 00:17:23.180 --> 00:17:27.059 ones that can be replaced. uh it's in the um 00:17:27.059 --> 00:17:33.960 top five for um or of the modeling work i've 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:37.039 been involved in involving you know dozens of 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:41.400 nutrients it's in the top five for 20 to 30 of 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:45.140 them so this this has a disproportionate contribution 00:17:45.140 --> 00:17:47.839 to nutrition it's really interesting that when 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:51.140 i i wrote my book legendary i did a bit of background 00:17:51.140 --> 00:17:53.680 work and there was a paper in the 1800s by a 00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:56.480 gentleman called lancaster and he talked about 00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:59.380 the role that milk played in society and it's 00:17:59.380 --> 00:18:03.720 it's you know um it's like a modern read And, 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.460 you know, 150 years later, we published a paper 00:18:07.460 --> 00:18:10.099 on when we analyse the role of dairy in the global 00:18:10.099 --> 00:18:13.700 food system that really echoes those points made 00:18:13.700 --> 00:18:16.359 by Lancaster. You know, so over those 150 or 00:18:16.359 --> 00:18:20.019 more years, it's continued to sort of have that 00:18:20.019 --> 00:18:23.779 role. Now, it's not a role we can take for granted, 00:18:23.819 --> 00:18:26.599 though, right? We need to be improving. And that's 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:29.019 certainly something I've been a strong advocate 00:18:29.019 --> 00:18:32.019 for. but you've got to recognize the role and 00:18:32.019 --> 00:18:36.319 with that the fact that we need to recognize 00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:38.259 the importance of the dairy sector the importance 00:18:38.259 --> 00:18:40.740 for it to improve including environmental performance 00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:43.380 and therefore we do need practice improvements 00:18:43.380 --> 00:18:46.339 but we only also need techn technological fixes 00:18:46.339 --> 00:18:50.599 where they can step change what we do and you 00:18:50.599 --> 00:18:53.200 know whether it's whether it's a vaccine or some 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:57.089 of the other solutions i I think I would be a 00:18:57.089 --> 00:18:59.829 strong advocate that we need those in order to 00:18:59.829 --> 00:19:03.390 enable dairy to continue to play the role it 00:19:03.390 --> 00:19:07.390 plays in society. And in that Rotterdam Declaration, 00:19:07.789 --> 00:19:11.730 you frame dairy as an essential component to 00:19:11.730 --> 00:19:15.130 nutrition. And with that, there's both the scientific 00:19:15.130 --> 00:19:19.130 significance of that, but also kind of the political 00:19:19.130 --> 00:19:23.740 or the perception significance of that. Why do 00:19:23.740 --> 00:19:25.980 you think it was important to get that message 00:19:25.980 --> 00:19:27.859 out there? And what do you believe that true 00:19:27.859 --> 00:19:34.559 message is? So it's important that we, you know, 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:37.380 we're in a world. Why? I think that why would 00:19:37.380 --> 00:19:40.599 we do that? The world's bombarded with messages 00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:42.900 these days, particularly with social media. And, 00:19:42.900 --> 00:19:46.460 you know, it's changed from, you know, it's changed 00:19:46.460 --> 00:19:49.039 from when I first started communicating, you 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:52.900 know. And therefore, it is always important to 00:19:52.900 --> 00:19:55.980 keep the broader context in the headlights, right? 00:19:56.099 --> 00:20:00.140 And the Dairy Declaration of Rotterdam was a 00:20:00.140 --> 00:20:04.880 step towards that. It's not the end of the process, 00:20:05.019 --> 00:20:07.200 right? We need to continually do this. But it 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:10.700 was an important recognition. And it wasn't a 00:20:10.700 --> 00:20:12.740 self -declaration. It was a joint declaration 00:20:12.740 --> 00:20:15.079 with the UN, which was very important, right? 00:20:16.460 --> 00:20:19.619 So having the statistics that are associated 00:20:19.619 --> 00:20:23.500 with the dairy declaration essentially vetted 00:20:23.500 --> 00:20:26.339 and committed to by the UN agency was an important 00:20:26.339 --> 00:20:30.259 part of this process. And it's the context for 00:20:30.259 --> 00:20:32.640 improvement. It's not a commitment. It's a declaration 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.859 on the role that dairy plays and therefore why 00:20:35.859 --> 00:20:38.700 it is important to consider how we improve it. 00:20:39.220 --> 00:20:43.579 And another aspect of this is some people would 00:20:43.579 --> 00:20:47.210 argue dairy is optional. individuals can manage 00:20:47.210 --> 00:20:50.069 without dairy I would argue the world will struggle 00:20:50.069 --> 00:20:52.549 from a nutritional point of view and other points 00:20:52.549 --> 00:20:59.569 of view and I am open to evidence that that might 00:20:59.569 --> 00:21:02.430 not be the case but I need to see something that 00:21:02.430 --> 00:21:05.829 has that can make a difference to that amount 00:21:05.829 --> 00:21:10.109 of impact within a practical time frame with 00:21:10.109 --> 00:21:12.470 practical solutions and I've yet to see that 00:21:14.579 --> 00:21:17.460 One of the things, the key subject that we've 00:21:17.460 --> 00:21:21.400 come across a few times is the feeding the world 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:23.819 or feeding the world with efficient proteins. 00:21:24.259 --> 00:21:27.480 And obviously, dairy is an efficient protein. 00:21:29.140 --> 00:21:32.240 And there's a lot of people who will highlight 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:35.319 the alternatives. And they say that these are 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:38.059 a better option to feed the world. But one of 00:21:38.059 --> 00:21:39.900 the key things I think comes up, and I would 00:21:39.900 --> 00:21:41.980 be interested to see your perspective on this, 00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:47.019 They may, I say may, offer similar nutritional 00:21:47.019 --> 00:21:49.220 values, but I really don't think they offer the 00:21:49.220 --> 00:21:53.180 same efficiency of protein production as dairy 00:21:53.180 --> 00:21:56.859 does. And how efficiently we can help feed people 00:21:56.859 --> 00:21:59.299 is kind of one of the biggest challenges this 00:21:59.299 --> 00:22:01.279 world faces. And I think dairy will have a key 00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:03.759 part in that. And I wonder how you see that happening 00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:07.720 and why you would say it is key. Absolutely. 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:09.940 First, though, I think it's really important. 00:22:10.059 --> 00:22:13.160 I actually gave a keynote. address at the international 00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:15.339 union of food science and technology on this 00:22:15.339 --> 00:22:17.420 topic it's called narratives for nutrition it 00:22:17.420 --> 00:22:23.900 was in october 22 in singapore and the and the 00:22:23.900 --> 00:22:27.380 point of my talk was this protein is super important 00:22:27.380 --> 00:22:31.220 right it's it's uh we can't you know uh we synthesize 00:22:31.220 --> 00:22:33.380 proteins in our body but we can't synthesize 00:22:33.380 --> 00:22:36.079 10 of the 20 amino acids right so we have to 00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:37.880 consume protein in order to get the essential 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:41.309 amino acids you know we can synthesize A lot 00:22:41.309 --> 00:22:43.250 of other things that we obviously can't synthesize 00:22:43.250 --> 00:22:46.490 vitamins. That's why they vital. Right. So you've 00:22:46.490 --> 00:22:48.369 got to think of the essential amino acids in 00:22:48.369 --> 00:22:50.690 protein in the same way that you consider, you 00:22:50.690 --> 00:22:52.809 know, vitamins. Right. If you don't have them. 00:22:53.109 --> 00:22:56.049 And also the most limiting one limits protein 00:22:56.049 --> 00:22:58.589 synthesis. When you run out of one, you can't 00:22:58.589 --> 00:23:00.630 make protein because that one can't be present. 00:23:00.710 --> 00:23:03.150 And therefore you can't you can't make proteins. 00:23:04.450 --> 00:23:09.000 But we need dozens of nutrients. Right. And so 00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:12.940 the reason dairy is so powerful and again, pointing 00:23:12.940 --> 00:23:15.160 out to the fact that it is the sole source of 00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:17.319 nutrition when we're most vulnerable from a developmental 00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:19.720 point of view. So we shouldn't be surprised it's 00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:21.880 full of all this great stuff, including the quality 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:25.119 of protein. But I said, as I said, in narratives 00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:28.000 for nutrition, it's naive to look at nutrition 00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:31.339 with just a protein paradigm. Right. It is much 00:23:31.339 --> 00:23:34.140 more than that. And the value of dairy is is 00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:37.579 the great protein and what comes with it. Right. 00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:41.240 you've got all the other nutrition right and 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:45.200 so dairy protein on its own is great but the 00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:47.980 source of that dairy protein and the other nutrients 00:23:47.980 --> 00:23:51.740 are very important as well and quite frankly 00:23:51.740 --> 00:23:54.119 we try not to throw anything away it's valuable 00:23:54.119 --> 00:23:56.259 so even if we're making proteins we're trying 00:23:56.259 --> 00:23:59.359 to you know make the most out of the rest of 00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:05.029 the um the milk that we produce etc so So that's 00:24:05.029 --> 00:24:07.690 the important point. And then that also ties 00:24:07.690 --> 00:24:10.589 down to what we discussed previously. Protein 00:24:10.589 --> 00:24:14.650 is not all the same. The quality of protein relates 00:24:14.650 --> 00:24:19.589 to how many of those essential amino acids, those 00:24:19.589 --> 00:24:21.750 we can't synthesize in our body, are present 00:24:21.750 --> 00:24:25.210 in the protein and in what ratios, right? And 00:24:25.210 --> 00:24:28.869 dairy is a fantastic balance of those things. 00:24:29.150 --> 00:24:31.950 Again, we shouldn't be surprised because we wouldn't 00:24:31.950 --> 00:24:34.900 grow and develop. it wasn't right because that's 00:24:34.900 --> 00:24:38.380 all we're getting at that stage of life um and 00:24:38.380 --> 00:24:40.099 of course we shouldn't be surprised that meat 00:24:40.099 --> 00:24:45.460 is actually a super source of protein for muscle 00:24:45.460 --> 00:24:48.740 because at the end of the day it is muscle right 00:24:48.740 --> 00:24:51.619 but dairy is produced as food meat's actually 00:24:51.619 --> 00:24:54.460 produced as a muscle and only becomes food when 00:24:54.460 --> 00:25:00.059 it doesn't move fast enough if i can but no but 00:25:00.059 --> 00:25:04.250 the point is um We do need meat. Meat's a rich 00:25:04.250 --> 00:25:07.910 source of zinc and iron and so on and so forth, 00:25:07.990 --> 00:25:10.349 the appropriate quantity. But I would also emphasize 00:25:10.349 --> 00:25:13.210 we need plant -based sources of nutrients. They're 00:25:13.210 --> 00:25:14.990 really valuable. You're not going to get high 00:25:14.990 --> 00:25:17.630 quantities of fiber. You're not going to get 00:25:17.630 --> 00:25:21.130 vitamin C out of animal sources. And when you 00:25:21.130 --> 00:25:23.529 look at the global production, and I'm on record 00:25:23.529 --> 00:25:25.970 saying this many times, essentially it's already 00:25:25.970 --> 00:25:28.309 plant -based and animal optimized, right? We 00:25:28.309 --> 00:25:30.089 can do a lot more. It needs to be a lot better. 00:25:30.670 --> 00:25:33.250 But 75 percent of what's consumed globally is 00:25:33.250 --> 00:25:35.309 plant based material. Twenty five percent is 00:25:35.309 --> 00:25:39.710 animal. Right. And the animal nutrition is important. 00:25:39.950 --> 00:25:42.430 And dairy has this particularly important role, 00:25:42.529 --> 00:25:46.170 again, which I've discussed at length in various 00:25:46.170 --> 00:25:50.369 forums and publications. One of the things I'd 00:25:50.369 --> 00:25:52.970 be interested to get your perspective on is in 00:25:52.970 --> 00:25:55.109 our world or in my world, we talk a lot about 00:25:55.109 --> 00:25:57.430 production efficiency. How do you produce more 00:25:57.430 --> 00:26:01.460 milk cheaper because the industry? It seems to 00:26:01.460 --> 00:26:03.619 be at a race to zero is a lot of the discussion 00:26:03.619 --> 00:26:06.619 or who can produce it the cheapest. But I don't 00:26:06.619 --> 00:26:09.980 think we talk enough about how can we grow the 00:26:09.980 --> 00:26:12.660 dairy market? How do we like take lessons from 00:26:12.660 --> 00:26:15.200 other industries or what your perspective would 00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:18.099 be? How can we grow consumption, not just fluid 00:26:18.099 --> 00:26:21.000 milk? What do you see as the future of how we 00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:25.299 can actually increase the amount of? dairy -based 00:26:25.299 --> 00:26:28.440 protein consumption uh what innovation do you 00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:30.200 see that way or where do you see that heading 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:32.539 or how can we do that well we're in a bit of 00:26:32.539 --> 00:26:35.039 a sweet spot at the moment because that the you 00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:37.319 know protein demands there is a protein trend 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:40.059 and it's it's not a basing right and and dairy 00:26:40.059 --> 00:26:43.980 is is is benefiting it hugely from from that 00:26:43.980 --> 00:26:46.920 i mean uh i mean as you'd be well aware cottage 00:26:46.920 --> 00:26:50.960 cheese just exploded in in the u .s because you 00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:56.690 know But also protein as an ingredient going 00:26:56.690 --> 00:26:59.309 into a whole range of foods is, you know, the 00:26:59.309 --> 00:27:02.529 demand is enormous at the moment. So we are benefiting 00:27:02.529 --> 00:27:07.630 from that. And look, you know, this is what gives 00:27:07.630 --> 00:27:11.609 me optimism about, you know, the future of the 00:27:11.609 --> 00:27:15.910 sector. And, you know, I think there's a better 00:27:15.910 --> 00:27:19.220 recognition of protein nutrition. and the importance 00:27:19.220 --> 00:27:22.259 of protein nutrition and it's this the second 00:27:22.259 --> 00:27:26.279 thing is is uh dairy and high quality protein 00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:28.960 including the other and the other dairy components 00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:31.359 as i mentioned in that talk i gave in in singapore 00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:35.420 and in singapore the trend hadn't really taken 00:27:35.420 --> 00:27:39.539 off but it has now so so the glp -1 effect um 00:27:39.539 --> 00:27:42.140 this could be important as well because people 00:27:42.140 --> 00:27:45.400 now if we're going to eat less than nutrient 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:49.410 density and richness quality of the diets becomes 00:27:49.410 --> 00:27:52.890 really important right so again i think that's 00:27:52.890 --> 00:27:58.910 that's that's uh uh something that we um we won't 00:27:58.910 --> 00:28:01.430 necessarily get by right but i also think there 00:28:01.430 --> 00:28:04.150 is there is a right for dairy in that space and 00:28:04.150 --> 00:28:07.049 a big one so i i see that as a an important thing 00:28:07.049 --> 00:28:11.750 as for production um it's actually quite staggering 00:28:11.750 --> 00:28:16.259 if you look back at um i mean Always room for 00:28:16.259 --> 00:28:18.339 improvement on how we do it and where we do it 00:28:18.339 --> 00:28:20.299 and all of those things. But if you look at what's 00:28:20.299 --> 00:28:23.900 happened in the US over the last. So if you look 00:28:23.900 --> 00:28:27.019 forward 30 years, a good way of looking forward 00:28:27.019 --> 00:28:29.619 at what might happen from a productivity point 00:28:29.619 --> 00:28:32.259 of view is to look back 30. Right. And, you know, 00:28:32.299 --> 00:28:34.740 I know you can go back 100 years and look at 00:28:34.740 --> 00:28:37.200 what was happening in New Zealand and the US. 00:28:37.299 --> 00:28:39.799 And there's staggering figures. But if you just 00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:43.789 look back 30 years. And I'll do it in milk solids 00:28:43.789 --> 00:28:45.710 because that's what we do in New Zealand. If 00:28:45.710 --> 00:28:48.269 you look in the U .S., the U .S. has actually 00:28:48.269 --> 00:28:53.869 increased milk solids per cow from 1990 through 00:28:53.869 --> 00:28:59.309 to 2020 by 72 percent. And we've done 60 percent 00:28:59.309 --> 00:29:02.430 plus in New Zealand. Right now, that gives me 00:29:02.430 --> 00:29:04.509 some hope, actually, you know, that, you know, 00:29:04.509 --> 00:29:08.029 so this efficiency, you know, the cow's inefficient. 00:29:08.069 --> 00:29:12.210 Well, the cow's efficiency has certainly. or 00:29:12.210 --> 00:29:14.730 productivity per cow obviously it's got to have 00:29:14.730 --> 00:29:18.049 inputs but that's you know it's certainly not 00:29:18.049 --> 00:29:24.490 topped out um and so you know with demand side 00:29:24.490 --> 00:29:27.289 or with production side if you look at the extremes 00:29:27.289 --> 00:29:30.430 you know milk how do we produce more of it you 00:29:30.430 --> 00:29:33.809 know more concentrates more more solids on the 00:29:33.809 --> 00:29:36.930 other side what's what do we think might happen 00:29:36.930 --> 00:29:42.579 with demand Dairy is looking pretty good. It's 00:29:42.579 --> 00:29:47.119 not something that we should sit back and take 00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:49.779 as a given. I think we need to make sure we work 00:29:49.779 --> 00:29:55.140 hard to realize that. But it looks pretty good. 00:29:56.359 --> 00:29:59.240 One of the neat things I think I find when we 00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:00.920 look into it and we've learned more and we're 00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:02.619 doing obviously so much more research into it 00:30:02.619 --> 00:30:06.380 is the correlation between sustainability and 00:30:06.380 --> 00:30:10.140 the efficiency of production and how the emissions 00:30:10.140 --> 00:30:13.420 that come from cows. Absolutely. Yeah. High producing. 00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:15.400 And I mean, when I mean high producing, I mean 00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:19.819 a high producing component cow is also a high 00:30:19.819 --> 00:30:23.599 efficiency from a methane and emissions. So the 00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:27.259 correlation speaks very well about what we could 00:30:27.259 --> 00:30:31.359 do because the goals think with each other, we 00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:34.799 can be more sustainable and we can produce that. 00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:38.480 And I think when you look at it, as you pointed 00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:43.519 out, the, sheer mass improvement on the component 00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:45.859 -based production. Yeah, maybe the cows aren't 00:30:45.859 --> 00:30:49.980 still producing. The speed of which we're increasing 00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:52.240 production maybe isn't there, but if you look 00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:56.779 at on the kilos of fluids, but if you do it on 00:30:56.779 --> 00:31:00.019 components, you see that, holy smokes, we're 00:31:00.019 --> 00:31:02.359 still making, and you'll see that, and I think 00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:06.160 you know better than I do, that the payment system 00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:09.769 to farmers is showing more of that now. I think 00:31:09.769 --> 00:31:11.650 you guys are a little ahead of us there. In North 00:31:11.650 --> 00:31:14.289 America, especially in the U .S., it's a little 00:31:14.289 --> 00:31:16.990 behind on that. It's coming quickly. Canada, 00:31:17.109 --> 00:31:19.349 because our system is different, we're ahead 00:31:19.349 --> 00:31:21.529 on it a little bit. But that is where the biggest 00:31:21.529 --> 00:31:23.309 change is coming to. I see it as the industry 00:31:23.309 --> 00:31:25.789 is paid by components, not paid by fluid milk. 00:31:26.990 --> 00:31:29.170 Absolutely. Of course, that's a financial driver. 00:31:29.470 --> 00:31:31.650 But let's turn it around to societal contribution. 00:31:31.990 --> 00:31:34.490 It is the components or the concentration of 00:31:34.490 --> 00:31:38.680 those components that is the nutrition. So, you 00:31:38.680 --> 00:31:42.380 know, so we're increasing nutritional efficiency 00:31:42.380 --> 00:31:46.079 with that productivity as well. Yeah. And I think 00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:48.019 you correlate it there and you talk about the 00:31:48.019 --> 00:31:52.839 Ozempic or whatever ones you want to talk about, 00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:56.440 the JLP ones, and the correlation to cottage 00:31:56.440 --> 00:32:00.240 cheese increase. And I think we just have to 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:02.000 look at our industry different. Don't measure 00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:06.579 it by how many glasses of milk. as a person consuming 00:32:06.579 --> 00:32:10.279 look at it on as a hey as a dairy protein source 00:32:10.279 --> 00:32:13.579 how much are we are of the market share or of 00:32:13.579 --> 00:32:15.640 the nutritional value and i think that's where 00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:18.980 the big future is yeah and and actually milk's 00:32:18.980 --> 00:32:21.640 bounced back a bit even as a even on a you know 00:32:21.640 --> 00:32:24.559 milk itself but but again you're absolutely right 00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:26.640 i think we've got to look at dairy are we getting 00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:29.380 dairy nutrition and it you know and that's the 00:32:29.380 --> 00:32:32.490 great thing about dairy it's utility right There's 00:32:32.490 --> 00:32:35.089 very few things can go into so many different 00:32:35.089 --> 00:32:39.210 tasty consumer acceptable formats, even as dairy 00:32:39.210 --> 00:32:41.390 is a category. And then, of course, you've got 00:32:41.390 --> 00:32:43.670 the opportunity to pull out the ingredients and 00:32:43.670 --> 00:32:48.369 the functionality of those new ingredients. Again, 00:32:48.450 --> 00:32:50.849 a feature I talk about in the book. Right. One 00:32:50.849 --> 00:32:53.470 of the great sweet spots of dairy is its utility. 00:32:53.849 --> 00:32:56.869 Right. Its ability to go into so many different 00:32:56.869 --> 00:33:00.880 foods and have an important role. nutritionally 00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:03.559 and functional from physical functional performance 00:33:03.559 --> 00:33:08.299 um you know i i finished the book by saying if 00:33:08.299 --> 00:33:11.539 dairy was invented today by some agri -tech starter 00:33:11.539 --> 00:33:14.359 it will be this seen as the greatest blockbuster 00:33:14.359 --> 00:33:19.940 in the history of food i deal in my outside of 00:33:19.940 --> 00:33:22.559 this i deal in the tech world and when they talk 00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:25.059 about this creating synthetic dairy or fermentation 00:33:25.059 --> 00:33:28.880 of dairy and stuff i always i see how much money 00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:32.279 is going into that. And I'm like, we already 00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:36.220 have almost the perfect system and yet all this 00:33:36.220 --> 00:33:39.039 money is going because it's new and trendy. But 00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:42.880 dairy is already doing all that at a much more 00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:47.109 efficient rate. Well, it's hard to beat the efficiency 00:33:47.109 --> 00:33:51.549 of the mammary epithelial cells, which is actually 00:33:51.549 --> 00:33:56.170 a small part of the bovine udder in the amount 00:33:56.170 --> 00:33:58.569 of just in protein, of course, they're producing 00:33:58.569 --> 00:34:02.809 all the other milk components. But those things 00:34:02.809 --> 00:34:06.990 are producing their weight in protein, you know, 00:34:07.049 --> 00:34:11.190 every day, right, that they're pumping out. But 00:34:11.190 --> 00:34:12.969 I do think there is a role for the alternatives 00:34:12.969 --> 00:34:16.750 as well. Right. So, you know, again, it's public 00:34:16.750 --> 00:34:19.469 record that I've been involved in this area and 00:34:19.469 --> 00:34:22.130 I'm deeply involved. And of course, it goes by 00:34:22.130 --> 00:34:25.670 ironically to decades ago when I first had a 00:34:25.670 --> 00:34:28.409 foray into the dairy industry when I was still 00:34:28.409 --> 00:34:31.630 in the UK. But it's going to be complementary. 00:34:32.389 --> 00:34:34.530 It's not going. So as long as we've got this 00:34:34.530 --> 00:34:37.969 protein demand out there and I think there is 00:34:37.969 --> 00:34:42.579 a complementary role that. the uh alternatives 00:34:42.579 --> 00:34:49.179 can play right um and uh but i um i do not um 00:34:49.179 --> 00:34:53.179 i do not believe and i haven't seen the evidence 00:34:53.179 --> 00:34:57.420 that this uh technology will disrupt the dairy 00:34:57.420 --> 00:35:00.099 industry right i i just don't believe that even 00:35:00.099 --> 00:35:02.059 though we're you know heavily involved in it 00:35:02.059 --> 00:35:04.440 so we see it playing a nice complementary role 00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:08.780 um and it's got some improvements to make even 00:35:08.780 --> 00:35:12.170 to get to that stage quite frankly but that's 00:35:12.170 --> 00:35:14.329 that's where it will play it's it's not going 00:35:14.329 --> 00:35:17.530 to supersede or replace dairy and in this in 00:35:17.530 --> 00:35:19.349 this world of demand that we're looking at that 00:35:19.349 --> 00:35:21.650 we discussed previously i think it can have a 00:35:21.650 --> 00:35:25.030 role to play and you talk about looking back 00:35:25.030 --> 00:35:27.789 to look forward if we look at the alternatives 00:35:27.789 --> 00:35:31.489 that we're supposed to change our industry on 00:35:31.489 --> 00:35:33.329 some of the alternatives that have been in market 00:35:33.329 --> 00:35:37.889 for 10 15 20 years and yet i think it fits that 00:35:37.889 --> 00:35:40.360 model you're saying of They've complimented. 00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:43.219 They haven't changed it, but they become a nice 00:35:43.219 --> 00:35:45.320 compliment or an alternative for certain circumstances. 00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:49.420 But they haven't taken it and taken over. Absolutely. 00:35:50.119 --> 00:35:53.340 And this is a food industry. So that Lancaster 00:35:53.340 --> 00:35:55.699 article I talked about in the 1800s is actually 00:35:55.699 --> 00:35:59.400 about sweetened condensed milk. And which was 00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:01.039 one of the few ways they could preserve it back 00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:03.880 then. Right. And so, you know, we're talking 00:36:03.880 --> 00:36:08.559 about. When we were first trying to preserve 00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:10.860 milk through various methods, and again, I'll 00:36:10.860 --> 00:36:13.019 cover a little bit of a history of that because 00:36:13.019 --> 00:36:15.320 it's so critical to the long -term development 00:36:15.320 --> 00:36:19.260 of the dairy sector. But the key thing is, swing 00:36:19.260 --> 00:36:21.500 condensed milk is still on the supermarket shelves. 00:36:22.780 --> 00:36:27.940 I don't know what software I was using 20 years 00:36:27.940 --> 00:36:33.039 ago, but it ain't available now. It's not the 00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:36.110 same, right? And I would also say a lot more 00:36:36.110 --> 00:36:38.130 sweetened condensed milk is sold today than it 00:36:38.130 --> 00:36:40.329 was in the 1800s when they were producing it. 00:36:40.550 --> 00:36:41.969 Well, that's what I was going to say. If you 00:36:41.969 --> 00:36:44.849 look at it, there are certain cultures and some 00:36:44.849 --> 00:36:46.829 of them, one of them is like the Indian culture. 00:36:47.389 --> 00:36:50.750 It's a staple in there and it's a growing population. 00:36:50.889 --> 00:36:52.829 Like we're not like it's decreasing. It's actually 00:36:52.829 --> 00:36:56.789 increasing good on total volume of consumption. 00:36:57.369 --> 00:37:01.210 Yeah. I mean, that's the other thing is. You've 00:37:01.210 --> 00:37:03.090 got to look at the, you know, the traditional 00:37:03.090 --> 00:37:06.909 countries that have had dairy and then those 00:37:06.909 --> 00:37:10.809 countries that have taken on dairy that weren't 00:37:10.809 --> 00:37:14.969 traditional, you know. So and look, Japan doesn't 00:37:14.969 --> 00:37:17.329 have the consumption of Iceland, for example. 00:37:17.829 --> 00:37:21.670 But if the rest of Asia got to Japan, right, 00:37:21.750 --> 00:37:23.989 if China got to the level of consumption in Japan, 00:37:24.150 --> 00:37:27.469 the demand is just unbelievably high, right, 00:37:27.510 --> 00:37:29.389 because it's just population based across the 00:37:29.389 --> 00:37:32.289 rest of Asia. and so on india of course has been 00:37:32.289 --> 00:37:35.610 a traditionally high consumer of dairy and producer 00:37:35.610 --> 00:37:38.909 of dairy is the world's biggest producer of dairy 00:37:38.909 --> 00:37:45.530 um you know well over 150 billion i know it's 00:37:45.530 --> 00:37:51.329 hard to say liters produced in india in a very 00:37:51.329 --> 00:37:55.050 different i'll call it production system than 00:37:55.050 --> 00:37:58.460 maybe New Zealanders or North Americans, I think, 00:37:58.519 --> 00:38:01.179 when you consider the average herd size and the 00:38:01.179 --> 00:38:03.420 logistic challenges, and yet they produce more 00:38:03.420 --> 00:38:06.880 milk with much more logistic challenges than 00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:09.820 we could ever imagine. But they've got a system 00:38:09.820 --> 00:38:12.920 that works, and it's a key part of the diet. 00:38:13.019 --> 00:38:19.380 So we're proud of our 8 ,000 -plus cooperative 00:38:19.380 --> 00:38:22.219 shareholders in Fonterra. We're a cooperative. 00:38:22.300 --> 00:38:26.929 We're owned by farmers. And I used to know Mr. 00:38:27.070 --> 00:38:29.150 Sodi. He's now no longer in the role. He was 00:38:29.150 --> 00:38:33.769 the CEO of Ammo. And he says, well, yeah, I've 00:38:33.769 --> 00:38:43.570 got 3 ,900 ,000. On daily pickup and not a few 00:38:43.570 --> 00:38:49.789 big tankers. So, you know, so, yeah, just I think 00:38:49.789 --> 00:38:52.869 I saw a statistic once that there was 70 million. 00:38:53.469 --> 00:38:58.570 involved in smallholder dairying in India. So 00:38:58.570 --> 00:39:00.969 you've spent your career kind of at an interesting 00:39:00.969 --> 00:39:03.449 intersection. You've had the science, you've 00:39:03.449 --> 00:39:05.110 worked with Fonterra, and you've had the commerce, 00:39:05.269 --> 00:39:07.989 and then you've worked with the policy side. 00:39:09.449 --> 00:39:11.989 When you look at looking forward, and we talked 00:39:11.989 --> 00:39:15.130 about looking forward 15, 20 years, what are 00:39:15.130 --> 00:39:16.949 the key decisions or what are the key aspects 00:39:16.949 --> 00:39:20.530 that we need to kind of think of now in order 00:39:20.530 --> 00:39:23.599 to kind of be in the right position down the 00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:25.599 road? What are the key issues you're seeing that 00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:29.420 we kind of need to really think about? Well, 00:39:29.420 --> 00:39:32.000 one of the key, I mean, essentially we discussed 00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:34.219 it a little earlier. So productivity needs to 00:39:34.219 --> 00:39:38.800 remain key, right? I mean, and that's just, that's 00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:41.360 just, that's not just about providing more nutrition. 00:39:41.480 --> 00:39:44.239 It's actually so that, you know, the cost, the 00:39:44.239 --> 00:39:46.579 efficiency with which we can do that still means 00:39:46.579 --> 00:39:51.460 that we can be a viable. part of the food sector 00:39:51.460 --> 00:39:55.900 in the future right um and so uh if i was if 00:39:55.900 --> 00:40:03.340 if i look out 30 years you know um i mean getting 00:40:03.340 --> 00:40:05.400 to those 30 years is a different matter but if 00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:09.880 i look at 30 years i think um uh productivity 00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:15.679 sustainability are important. I'd like to think 00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:17.599 that we've done an excellent job and we're not 00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:20.500 constantly having to sort of re -justify why 00:40:20.500 --> 00:40:28.159 dairy. But getting there, I think, Andrew, is 00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:31.719 the bigger challenge through what could be quite 00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:38.639 a turbulent period for economies, for production 00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:45.699 systems. as we have to adapt to different demands, 00:40:46.139 --> 00:40:51.519 different weather events, and so on and so forth. 00:40:51.639 --> 00:40:55.980 So I think one of the things I see as critical 00:40:55.980 --> 00:41:00.219 between where we are today and, you know, not 00:41:00.219 --> 00:41:02.699 necessarily a rocket science future of productivity. 00:41:03.179 --> 00:41:05.659 And yes, there might be lots of different ways 00:41:05.659 --> 00:41:07.619 in which we're producing products and justifying 00:41:07.619 --> 00:41:10.199 the nutritional benefits and so on. But fundamentally, 00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:14.440 the productivity and the sustainability of that 00:41:14.440 --> 00:41:17.420 milk production is going to be key and the whole 00:41:17.420 --> 00:41:21.599 chain for that matter. But resilience is going 00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:25.219 to be a key feature of how we get there. Right. 00:41:26.480 --> 00:41:32.239 So. Building resilient systems that enables us 00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:34.420 to get to that future, I think is going to be 00:41:34.420 --> 00:41:37.900 equally as important. As I say, there's some 00:41:37.900 --> 00:41:44.679 lovely tailwinds. If you look at, you know, demand, 00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:48.019 protein demand, if you look at, you know, certainly 00:41:48.019 --> 00:41:51.659 the potential, it's not happened yet, but it's 00:41:51.659 --> 00:41:55.079 certainly happening. Impact of G, you know, hot. 00:41:55.389 --> 00:41:58.170 appetite suppression. I'll put it that way because 00:41:58.170 --> 00:42:00.349 who knows what we'll be using for appetite suppression 00:42:00.349 --> 00:42:03.510 in 10 or 15 or 20 years' time as well. It may 00:42:03.510 --> 00:42:09.090 not be the current round of treatments. And actually, 00:42:09.329 --> 00:42:13.530 you know, dairy components can have a GLP -1 00:42:13.530 --> 00:42:18.530 effect. So it has been known for some time that 00:42:18.530 --> 00:42:20.929 there's a satiety effect of dairy consumption, 00:42:21.190 --> 00:42:25.340 right? So some of those things I think are going 00:42:25.340 --> 00:42:26.820 to be interesting. But again, coming back to 00:42:26.820 --> 00:42:31.699 the macro picture, I think great tailwinds, very 00:42:31.699 --> 00:42:35.219 bright future, got to keep that focus on productivity 00:42:35.219 --> 00:42:37.719 and sustainability, but resilience is going to 00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:39.900 be so important as we go through that process. 00:42:40.179 --> 00:42:42.820 The plant protein lobby pushed for a rule change 00:42:42.820 --> 00:42:45.380 that would have cut billions from milk payments 00:42:45.380 --> 00:42:49.760 worldwide. One scientist stopped it. Most producers 00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:53.289 have never heard his name. This is The Bullvine. 00:42:53.530 --> 00:42:55.570 Today you're going to hear directly from Dr. 00:42:55.650 --> 00:42:58.269 Jeremy Hill. He's Fonterra's chief science and 00:42:58.269 --> 00:43:01.269 technology officer, the only New Zealander to 00:43:01.269 --> 00:43:03.469 ever lead the International Dairy Federation, 00:43:03.829 --> 00:43:06.469 and the man behind the protein quality standard 00:43:06.469 --> 00:43:09.409 that is now dairy's strongest weapon against 00:43:09.409 --> 00:43:13.710 plant -based competitors. Hill spent 35 years 00:43:13.710 --> 00:43:16.969 turning a temporary research gig into the science 00:43:16.969 --> 00:43:20.130 behind your component premiums. He rewrote how 00:43:20.130 --> 00:43:22.510 protein quality is measured globally, fought 00:43:22.510 --> 00:43:24.690 off attempts to rig how your milk protein is 00:43:24.690 --> 00:43:27.409 counted, and built the case that dairy is the 00:43:27.409 --> 00:43:31.469 most nutritionally dense food on Earth. He was 00:43:31.469 --> 00:43:34.030 supposed to go back to medical research. He was 00:43:34.030 --> 00:43:37.489 studying liver enzymes. Instead, he turned right 00:43:37.489 --> 00:43:39.809 instead of left on a road in Palmerston North, 00:43:39.889 --> 00:43:40.389 New Zealand.