Breaking free from the chains of the past Where
truth moves faster than a Holstein calf No law
waiting on some printed page We're charting new
ground in the digital age From genomic codes
to robot facts We cut through the noise, no hold
them back not your daddy's dairy news tonight
we're sparking This is the Bullvine Podcast,
where dairy pros come for straight talk, hard
data, and no -nonsense know -how from the people
who actually do the work. Today's episode, judge
the cow in front of you, not the crowd. We're
bringing you ringside with internationally renowned
judge Callum McKinvan, recorded live in Ecuador.
Callum's judged in more than 30 countries and
four decades of shows. His message is simple,
and it hits home. Arrive prepared. Keep the ring
moving, stick to a repeatable evaluation pattern,
and when it's time to talk, don't memorize. See
it, say it. Three clear, positive, trait -based
reasons. If you're a young judge, this is your
playbook for the next show. If you've judged
for years, it's the tune -up that keeps exhibitor
trust high and politics out of the ring. In this
session, you'll hear why distance viewing matters.
how to manage class speed without losing confidence,
what to say in youth classes so kids leave wanting
to come back, and how to place the famous cow
that's off her game without flinching. Grab a
notebook. We're going to talk balance, locomotion,
rib and angularity, utter attachments, clear
pointing, and that bottom six strategy every
youth judge should use. Let's get into it. We're
going to touch on a little bit before the animals
come on maybe ethics of a judge. And some of
these things are as I say and not as I do. I'm
not the most organized person in the world, so
when I get asked to judge a show, it's great
that I have an incredible wife that she'll mark
down the date and everything, but sometimes I
don't do that. And as advice, when you get asked
to judge a show, put it somewhere, mark it down
so you don't miss that event or forget that event.
I've been fortunate enough to judge for, I guess
it's pretty close to, 40 years, a little more
than 40 years. I started judging when I was 19.
I did my first show. And when the show asked
me, official letter, they thought I was a man
of 40 years old. So when I showed up and I was
judging the young people that were older than
me, it was pretty... When I saw that, I'm like,
wow, this is kind of scary. But the big thing,
I guess, is when you're judging... Try to have
the most confidence you can. And by that I mean
there's a fine line between confidence and arrogance.
So you want to be confident, but don't look...
In English we call it cocky. Don't look cocky.
Just be yourself with the people. Be nice with
the people in the ring. Don't give the impression
that you're the scary guy or scary person. But
be confident, but friendly. Then we'll touch
on the day you're judging. You should dress up
a little bit when you're a judge. I think you
should be recognizable to the exhibitors that
you're a judge and not just be maybe wearing
jeans and a t -shirt. You should maybe have,
it doesn't have to be a tie or shirt depending
which country you're in, but at least dress up
a little bit so that you say, oh yeah, that's
the judge. I've gone, I've I've been lucky enough
that this would have been the 32nd country I've
judged in the world. And there's one country
I've gone 25 times. And every country is a little
different. Some countries I go, it's very efficient.
Some countries I go, it's more relaxed. And I
guess through the years I've learned that, and
for anybody who's going international judging,
I always try to check before what it is like
there as far as the judges are expected, what
they're expected of. So if I'm going to England,
I know it's very official. They don't want you
to see anybody except the day you arrive, the
judge counts. I go to South America, they want
to take you out for dinner, meet all the exhibitors,
have a few drinks. It's just a little different.
So I try to fit in whatever country I go. The
day of the show, try to arrive at least 30 minutes
before you're judging that show. So you have
time to talk to the people in the ring how to
set it up, where you're going to stand to give
your reasons, all that stuff. And that's, I've
cut it close a few times. Sometimes you end up
being delayed in traffic. So I always try now
to leave myself lots of time to get there plenty
of time before the show. And one thing, when
you do start judging and you've judged some shows,
try never to look to the crowd. Try to just focus
on the ring because if you look at the crowd
and you see somebody shaking their head no, it
just takes away your confidence. And so you're
the person judging that day, so just ignore what
the people on the outside are acting like and
just go ahead. and place them the way you see
them, and keep your confidence. And if you're
asked to judge the young handlers, the younger
children, it's pretty hard for those children
going in a ring. It takes a lot of confidence.
Like, they're intimidated. So if you come in
with this stern look on your face, like you're
scary, they're not going to relate to you. So
I always... try to really let the children know
I'll say good morning, and I'll try to have a
smile and let them know you're not this bad person,
you're just there to judge them. And so that
sets up a good relationship with the kids right
off, and they know they can actually talk to
you and relate to you. They're a lot more comfortable.
And before we go too much farther, I want to
say for the younger judges, I was very fortunate.
I grew up with a father that was a judge. And
I learned so much from my father. When I was
like eight, nine years old, we were judging a
cow class in a magazine. He'd say, just give
me a set of reasons. And that's how I learned
to give reasons. And then I met my wife at a
very young age. We were together. And her father
was recognizable as one of the best judges in
the world. And he really is my mentor. He's taught
me so much about judging. And I always took his
advice to heart every time he told me. So for
you younger people, and you know somebody that's
a judge in your country, don't be scared to go
up and say, how should I act? What should I do?
Ask for advice. They're going to help you. I
remember when I started judging at a young age,
that first show I judged, I never talked on the
microphone. And I did. I wasn't comfortable with
it. And every time I brought it too close, it
would squeal. And so I started my first class,
and I'm like, my heart's going like this. So
I learned where to hold it, where people could
hear me, and I wasn't making a noise, and where
to stand in the rain that that didn't happen.
That's important. And I remember... I was lucky
with those animals. I think the first class I
had, it was 36. And my father always said, get
them in and get them out, but look at them all
equally. My friend was judging in the other ring,
experienced judge. He had five animals, and he
had judged for years. And I was given my reasons
on my 36, and his five were still going around.
So it was maybe a little bit too fast. But I
think if you take too long, you lose the confidence
of the examiners. And if you go too fast, they
don't think you're looking at the animals enough.
So you'll know when you judge how quick you should
be. But if you're scratching your head and you're
out there scratching your head and you're like,
you're losing their confidence in your job. So
try it. That's what I mean by have confidence.
And the speed is very important. And you've got
to make sure you're not racing through, but you
don't want to take all day to do a class. And
the best piece of advice I can give you today,
don't try to memorize your reasons. I did that.
And I'm like, oh, these were six. I go to the
mic and I'm trying to remember what I was going
to say. Your eyes tell you. So when you judge
those animals, you go out to the mic, you're
comfortable. When those animals come out, You
know why you did it. Talk about what you see.
Don't talk about what you're trying to memorize.
And that is the best piece of advice I can give
you as a judge. Even for the experienced judges,
sometimes you like to turn your back and face
the crowd in the class behind you, I say, look
at what you're talking about. Look at the animals
as they're coming out. You'll know. She's flatter,
nicer in her bone quality. She's longer in her
neck, or she's got a better foreattachment, longer
foreattachment. You'll know why you did it. And
that is something that probably is the best piece
of advice. Just a couple more things so we don't
go too long, but be concise when you're choosing
your animal. I show them their judges, and they'll
go around like this. And you're like, did he
point to me? So make sure they know you're pointing
to them. Because if you're not concise, you're
going to end up with somebody in the middle that
shouldn't be there, and then you're in a bad
situation. So then the bad part is you don't
want to make those people leave. So usually I'll
just say, you might have to stand here a while.
I'm going to bring some and send them ahead.
Okay. Because you're not there to embarrass anybody.
So if you're concise, you're not going to get
in that situation. You're going to say, you,
you, you. Even if I have a ring person, when
I'm judging them, I watch out my eye to make
sure the right ones are coming in. Because if
they've got 10 feet and they're not moving, I'll
just say, no, no, just stay. Before they get
embarrassed of coming in. So that's really important.
It's like a traffic director in life. You've
got to be concise. You've got to know you're
the one to get in. pointing to whoever you are.
Just one little, it sounds silly, but it's true.
Wear something on your feet that looks proper,
but it's comfortable. Don't do like I did. I
just, World Air Expo the first time, I did two
breeds, and it was 900 pounds, and I bought brand
new shoes. My wife had to pull them off my feet
at the end of the day because I had blisters
on my toes because they were brand new. So wear
something that you know It's comfortable on your
feet because you're not going to be in the middle
of class at, oh, my feet hurt. You don't want
that. You want to be focusing on the couch. So
that is a silly little thing, but it is a very
important thing. And the other important thing
is when you're judging, and that will happen
in North America sometimes a lot at the bigger
stormy shows, but it can happen in your own country.
There's a cow that might have been grand champion
at four or five shows. You know she is. And you're
judging that show. Forget about that. Forget
about if she was grand champion. You're there
to place her that day. And if she's not the best
cow, don't win with her just because she's been
winning before. If you think she's third place
that day or second place and you can support
it with reasons, you do it. But don't beat her
just to beat her. if she's not deserving to win,
don't be intimidated because I'm going to be
not asked to judge again because all these people
know this cow never gets beat. You might get
asked to judge more because you recognize she
wasn't the winner that day. So just remember
that. That's very important. You've got to forget
about what they've done before. If you know the
cows, forget about it. You're judging them that
day. I haven't talked to every person in every
class. Madison, 16th class, I've talked to. I'm
known as one of the fastest judges because I
allot my time through my experience of judging
to be able to explain why you're in 25th or 30th
rather than have to explain it in the barn when
you judge 600 head. And you're like, oh, yeah,
okay. So that's kind of a, that's just a little
piece of advice. Not everybody's going to, be
comfortable doing that. But you really should,
when you're judging young children, you better
take the time, no matter what people say, to
tell them why they are where they are. And that
is very important. And if it's a really young
class, I'll even get on my knee and relate to
that young showman so they don't feel intimidated.
If I see them start to cry, I make sure I say,
you did a great job. You could be up the line
very easily. It's just that little thing. I judge
young people to make sure they don't cry. So
if you don't want to be there hiding like your
cat, she's really bad, then they'll start crying.
And that's not what you want. You want to make
them feel confident to come back to you. If you've
got a large class, this will be the last thing,
a large class of young people, and there's like
25 in there, Those last five or six, that's pretty
scary to think to yourself, I'm going to be the
last place. I'll usually just say, last six,
just come on in. Come on in the middle. And I'll
go down and talk to them and say, you're all
equal here. You just need improvement in these
things to be up to life. So that one standing
on the end doesn't say, well, I was last. Oh,
we were all kind of equal in the bottom six.
It's just a good piece of advice to young people.
to not pick on them when they're down on that
end. You've got to make them feel that they're
all about equal right now. And that's the way
I try to do it. Probably got a class of five,
it's not the same. And when you've got a class
of 30, and they realize they're going to be at
the bottom, they'll feel pretty bad. So I always
make sure in the last six or seven, I'll just
signal the lineup. We're going to go on to the
cow and what we're looking for when I'm touching.
So, first of all, when you're judging, you see
the animals come in. I don't like to stand and
look this close. I like to look back. And if
you watch them come in, the farther you're back,
the better you get to see them. So I'll kind
of look quick, and the next one's going by, and
I look quick. I can tell right off, yeah, that
one's going to be right there, that one's not.
It's just I'm used to judging. And I know what
I'm looking at. So the first thing just when
I was talking to you guys, this cat was standing
there. I looked at her chest. I'm like, wow,
that's a good example of a good cow in this country.
Look at her chest. So when I go in close looking
at the cow, and I look at the side profile, when
I come around, I'm checking that out. Man, that
cow's going to do pretty well if everything else
is right. She's got a white, dead white in her
front. She's gone. And I think in this country,
that's true. When I'm dredging, I always have
a pattern. And at the end of the show, people
know what I want. And I want balance. And my
balance, it's the rib structure. Michelle's not
too extreme up to the front. It looks like she's
going to dip over. The floor rib, the rear rib.
She doesn't let her top motion. She's balanced
from the front to the rear. This isn't very balanced
at all. And that's what I want at the end of
the day. I don't want a cow with a very low capacity,
a linear top, or not the rib structure I like.
But then you have a situation where a cow will
have a great mammary system and not a capacity.
You've got to admire the mammary system so you
don't just put that cow down hard because she
maybe lacks a balance. She might even fit in
a third or fourth in the box. So I like to count
balance. And that's one of the first things I
notice on a count. And I look quickly across
the range and I say, well, what's the neck like?
Long, very neck, very head, balance. Feet, legs
look great. Chest looks great. So I can feel
pretty good already when I go on to look at the
next count. I already got a really good count.
So, that's, you look at it quickly. First, if
you've got a class of 5, 8, you can say, man,
watch it. If you have a class of 12 or 5, we're
going to be all day done. So what I'm trying
to do, I look at the first 3 or 4, and leave
them out. 43 to the right. I'm already walking
around. And I go to the side. I look to the side.
I look to the front. I look to the side. I look
to the rear. And I might do five. Everybody judging
isn't going to be in the same situation. So if
you've got five cows, you let those five cows
come in and look at them as long as they have
room to move. Because there's nothing worse than
getting 25 to the main and all stopped and you're
not going to have a chance to see them really
move. So that's why I do it that way. So if I
get a small head and it's not big enough, I want
to make sure I see them all moving. So those
first five come in, then I'll go on to the rest
and I'll look at those five. And then I'll see
them all moving. And I'm preparing so every animal
gets seen. That's the only reason I say that.
You don't even have to fight a bus. You can stand
in the middle of the day and get in and see them
all moving and go look at each other. This is
a great example of a really good cat. She came
to show the other day. I would like their mom.
So that's the kind of cow she is. If you look
at the mammary system, check how high the rear
udder is. That's what they give in. Even the
front teeth placement at 400. It's exactly what
I would be looking for with a really good mammary
system. Feet length, perfect. Bone quality, perfect.
Flat bone, beautiful. Rubbed stretcher to rewind
it. That's good. Pin placement. If anything,
it's a little down. That's more functional than
a high. So that's good. Bone structure, very
good. See, angularity. My angularity, I look
at the way the cow is up to her front end, which
is angular. I look at the way the ribs are. Spring
rib, hairy rib, drop to the rib. That all ties
in as angularity. She is excellent with this
as well. She has a beautiful head, very feminine,
very feminine. And with the head, I also look
at the muzzle. When you've got a cow with a really
narrow muzzle, usually it goes narrow in the
head. She's got a really good muzzle and a really
good width ahead. We've covered what we're looking
for on the animal. It's how to give the reasons,
how to explain what you're looking for. You just
don't say, she's got really nice legs. I give
the first cow advantage. Nicer legs than the
second cow, nicer memory than the second cow.
That's a no -no. Because you need to be able
to say why the legs are nicer, why the others
are nicer. I'd say, just pretend there's a second
cow in there and her other is gapping in the
front. You would say, the first cow is a nicer
blending for outer to the body wall. The first
cow is higher and wider at the rear attachment.
And the thing I remember when you're talking
about and looking for those traits, you don't
say bad about the next cow. You don't say bad
about the next cow. You never talk bad about
the cows. You talk positive about the cows. I
don't know. I was trying to say something positive
about every cow. So I'll say how much I love
the first cow. I'll explain why I like, and then
I'll move right on and say she blends better
or better attached into the body wall. She's
flatter in her bone quality in her leg, or she's
stronger in her pasture. Three reasons. That's
a lot. That's enough. You don't have to do 10
reasons. Pretend there's the same cow. I take
this first cow. She's longer in her forehead.
She blends better in her body wall. She's flatter
in her bone. Over this really nice... Dairy cow
we have in second. So I've already noticed the
second cow's dairy. And I've said why I had the
first cow in second. And I would say the dairy
cow in second has the advantage of wider chest
over the deep rib cow we have in third. I always
try to talk positively about each cow below.
But give the right reasons why you're eating.
You've only got five cows. If you get down to
your fifth cow, the fourth over fifth, you can
say the cow in fifth I recognize she's very angular.
I'd just like to give her more width of chest,
more depth of rib. But she is a very angular,
or very wide -chested cow. You can say something
positive if you can find out the last cow. Because
that farmer, standing in the barn, if you say,
I got the fourth cow and the very ninth cow and
fifth, that's not good. You don't talk that way
to your judge. So you need to be honest, but
concise. It's any judge's dream. you can find
the cow you absolutely love. And if they can't
walk through the first class or second class,
I already said, well, I'm pretty safe. I got
a really good job at the end of the day. And
even though I said that, when I'm judging, I'll
say, wow, again, they scammed me at the end of
the day. And sometimes that happens in the last
class and they're like, wow, I'm safe. And it's
a nice feeling as a judge because you feel confident
about what you're going to do. And the last thing,
I don't want to drag it out. Like I said the
other day in the show, if you don't have the
exact placings of the official, then you can
argue, well, the second count, I prefer the rock
structure, the loin strain over the one that
was first, and you give a substantial reason,
you're not necessarily wrong. If that judge's
opinion at me, and you can make your reason supportive,
But if you got the last list count first, and
it was really obvious, then you're really going
to have to come up with reasons. So you try to
get it fairly close. It might be class of six,
and you might be, oh, I had the first three mixed
up, but I had the last three exactly right. That's
okay. You're not losing a lot of points. As long
as you gave the reason why those first three
were the way they were. When I'm judging, I'm
always thinking, This cow is my pack. That's
what I like. So I'm comfortable with putting
that in. Somebody might be comfortable with a
cow without as much capacity, but I have a hard
time winning the show with a cow without capacity.
So I'm going to rely on myself. That's very important.
You can have a cow with great capacity, but you're
not going to have a cow with great capacity.
You're going to have a cow with great capacity.
The first cow has better legs than the second
cow. So you've got to weigh it. It's that opinion
on the day. If you can learn to give reasons,
just ignore it. Descriptive reasons. It's not
just the first cow has better legs than the second
cow. It's the same as better udder. It's the
same as wine. It's not really descriptive about
the cow. When you're judging or replacing those
cows, I usually go off. I mean, I should say
this, but some countries, you know, the certain
showmen, they're fine, and they're not happy.
I look at everybody, and I know when the guy's
mad, the guy's just mad at himself. But for a
young judge, it can scare you. So for a young
guy to come around, there could be a reason for
that for anybody. So get that one person. Like
this, it can take it off. So just, if you're
worried about it, I just, this cow, this cow,
this cow. Move on. And the reason that occurs,
that's it. If one guy's always showing great
cows, and he comes in the rain, don't look what
he's showing. You're looking at the animal. You're
not looking at the showing. So it can be, somebody
that doesn't even show well has the best cow.
You'd be scared to leave them without a cow.
As far as the confirmation part, utter and lengths.
Utter and lengths are very important. I always
find it hard to judge as a percentage when I'm
judging. The percentage of declassification,
as a judge, I don't, I mean, if the udder's a
great udder or a really good udder, then it's
good enough to be up top. But if it's not a good
udder, she's probably going to be up top. I don't
really, but if I had a cow with really not good
legs and not a good udder on the same cow, she's
not going to be up top. I'll tell you that. Easy.
And as far as the memorizing part goes, you're
at university level. You're going to class. So
you've got to do that in that situation. When
you're a judge at a show, like a big show, I
give the advice, let your eyes talk. You've seen
those doubts. And I talk to them in a different
way. And then I realized, just look at the cows.
Oh yeah, the last place, there's an August house.
The last really should happen. I really make
sure these guys are trying to have the right
August house for this. If there's three cows
and they're all kind of close, and you're not
sure, What weighs more in your mind? The udder
was better on this one than the udder on that
one. The leg was better. That's why she's third.
But if you've got an obvious last, try to ensure
you've got the obvious last. I really don't change
my settings because of the competition. Because
if you've got a cow with a grass and she's not
as deep, it's probably because she doesn't quite
have the right rim structure. My cows are great.
I got green cream from all those cows. And a
cow with a natural rib structure, it's natural.
You know, she doesn't eat meat. So, I mean, in
a country that all the cows are in the same condition,
you're going to see the same thing. You're going
to have this one cow maybe walk in with that.
Even though she's not had any hay, she's a great
cat. I mean, I still look for the same pattern
in every country I go, but it's a country that
says it's a pattern. Maybe their calves aren't
going to be as deep, so I pick in the best of
what I find. When you're worried about getting
reasons, and you just come to the show and you've
never practiced, it's like, wow. You could be
looking at cows in your barn and saying to yourself,
oh yeah, That's a wrap on this Bullvine podcast
episode with Callum McKinvan. If one idea sticks,
make it this. Judge the cow that walked in today.
Eyes on cattle, not on the crowd. Move, see,
decide, explain. Want the full written playbook
from this clinic? Head to The Bullvine and look
for Judge With Confidence, the ultimate playbook
for dairy cattle judging. It's loaded with the
evaluation pattern, the three reasons framework,
and a next show checklist you can use this weekend.
If this helped, share it with a new judge, a
4 -H leader, or the friend who always gets asked
to sort county fair classes. And subscribe to
The Bullvine podcast for more bold, practical
episodes that move the industry forward. For
The Bullvine. I'm your host. Thanks for listening.
See you ringside.