Creeping across the pasture land. Got dirt on
the boots and a working hand. From the milk house
home to the auction call. These are the folks
standing strong and tall. Yeah, this is... Welcome
to the Bullvine Podcast, where we dive deep into
the stories, science, and strategies shaping
the future of dairy farming. I'm your host, and
today we're exploring the remarkable journey
and urgent message of one of agriculture's most
influential voices, Dr. Temple Grandin, the name
that commands instant respect across cattle barns
and boardrooms alike. When we posted news of
her 2025 AVMA Humane Award on our Facebook page,
it reached nearly 2 million people, proving that
her impact extends far beyond the beef industry,
where she built her reputation. At 78, Dr. Grandin
isn't slowing down. She's sounding the alarm
about what she calls biological system overload,
the dangerous pursuit of maximum production over
optimal performance that's quietly bankrupting
operations across the country. Her latest research
shows that our relentless focus on single traits
is pushing cattle beyond their natural limits,
with consequences we're only beginning to understand.
This is more than just an animal welfare story.
It's about the future of dairy profitability,
the genetics decisions you're making today, and
why the woman who couldn't speak until age four
became the voice that's transforming how we think
about cattle. From her revolutionary cow's eye
view of facility design to her urgent warnings
about genetic extremism, Dr. Grandin's insights
could reshape how you approach everything from
handling practices to breeding decisions. Whether
you're dealing with laminase rates, struggling
with reproductive efficiency, or trying to optimize
your milk production, her message is clear. Optimal
beats maximum every time. Let's discover why
understanding what your cows see might be the
key to unlocking their full potential and yours.
So let's start with the foundation of your work.
You describe having autism as having a very much
different perspective on animal behavior. How
can you describe the first time you realized
that visual thinking helped you see things differently?
than maybe others had missed. What was that like
for you? Well, when I first started working with
beef cattle back in the early 70s, I thought
everybody was a visual thinker. I didn't know
that my thinking was different. So it was obvious
to me to look at what cattle were seeing when
they went to a shoot. They'd stop at a shadow.
They'd stop at a coat on a fence. They'd stop
if there was reflection on a vehicle parked nearby.
And other people weren't noticing these things,
and they thought it was really weird to get in
the shoots. And I didn't know that most other
people think a lot more verbally. And it wasn't
until my late 30s that I had any inkling that
other people were much more verbal in their thinking.
And now this research, which I've described in
detail in my book, Visual Thinking, that people
who are object visualizers, people like me that
think in pictures. are very different than people
who think in patterns, which these people would
be really good at mathematics and music. And
then a lot of people are mixtures. But being
a visual thinker helped me in working with animals
because animals live in a sensory -based world,
not a word -based world. Why is it seeing, hearing,
experiencing? It's sensory -based. I tell people,
you want to understand dairy cattle or any other
animal, you need to get away from verbal language.
Now, you've almost used that to shape your whole
career, the whole visual perspective versus verbal
in there. And it's quite the career you've had.
I would think it's well over 40 years that you've
been working in this field. What's the major
shift? You've had some major shifts. as well,
though, in your perspective over the years. And
more recently, it seems you've added in or been
looking at kind of more than just the physical,
but also the genetic components. Yes. How much
has that kind of genetics entered into your thinking
about animal welfare? Well, from the very first
temperament research for beef cattle, my graduate
student did, and we had a very simple hypothesis.
This is back in the early to mid -90s. that cattle
that get upset and jump around in swing chutes
would have lower weight gains. And it turned
out to be true. And the other thing is, people
were back then denied animals' emotions. I was
not allowed to use the word fear in my papers.
I had to take that out. And then another researcher
named Paul Hemsworth, who mainly worked with
pigs, did start using the word fear in his paper.
And there's been a whole lot of research, going
back to Jack Albright, at the Purdue University
that stockmanship matters. If you're rough with
dairy cattle, they're going to give less milk.
There's a bunch of research on a lot of different
kinds of animals that show that, both old studies
and new studies, that if you yell at dairy cattle
and slap them and hit them, this goes back to
the old seed book studies, that they're going
to give less milk. you know, that gentle handling's
important. That goes also back to the quote Hordes
Derryman, you know, when Hordes Derryman's magazine
started, that rough treatment lessens the flow.
So, when you go into the genetics of it, and
we do a lot into the genetics, And you talked
about the environment and the genetics. Have
you done much research or did you find that temperament,
like in beef cows or dairy cows, have you done
much research yourself in that regard? Well,
we did some of the original research done on
cattle temperament was done by my graduate student
years ago. And now temperament testing for beef
cattle is commonplace. And the Angus cattle we
have today are much gentler. Angus cattle that
we had 25 years ago. They're a lot quieter and
they startle. Now, on the other hand, you don't
want to over -select for any trait because right
now I'm very concerned about congestive heart
failure and problems with hoof abnormalities
showing up in beef cattle that have just been
selected for meat traits. I wrote a review article
just last year that's titled Problems with Lameness
and Congestive Heart Failure. have increased
ingrained fed steers and heifers. And this is
a problem that slowly has become worse. Now the
industry realizes that there's a problem with
this. In genetics, you over -select for any single
trait, you end up wrecking your animal. We've
got a dairy cow now. She's given a ton of milk,
but she's difficult to breed. You see, there's
all these trade -offs. We have to start looking
at what's optimal, not maximum. Yes, it's really
good to have more productive dairy cows, and
we can have more milk with less cows. That's
definitely good, but there's a point where you
take it too far, and that's already happened
in beef cattle with the congestive heart failure
and hoof abnormalities, abnormalities such as
crossed claws, and that will show up in young
animals under six months of age. That's genetics.
That's not founder. No, no, true. And when you're
watching, my understanding is when you're watching
them, you're visually assessing them, obviously.
And say in a beef cow, when you're visually assessing
a lame cow or seeing these hoof issues, what
type of things are you looking for when you watch
them? Is it just how they... Well, we're scoring
things. Now, dairy cows have a lot of lameness
issues, and they're not caused by some different
things. And three or four studies have shown
that if you just ask a dairy producer... What
percentage of your milking cows are laying, they
will underestimate by half. They get so used
to seeing the mildly laying cows, they don't
see them. But you actually measure them with
one of the lameness scoring cards. Zinpro is
one of them, but also Welfare Quality and some
of the other lameness scoring tools, there's
videos that are out online for scoring lameness.
And this is what I call bad becoming normal.
They get so used to seeing it, they don't see
it. And on the dairy cows, there's three studies
that have shown that if you just say, well, what
percentage of your cows are lame? Underestimate
by half. And then when they measure it, they're
kind of shocked. Now, that is kind of one of
the things that you've obviously had an innate
ability to see this, that maybe what most people
don't see naturally or inertly, you have been
able to do that. How do you find it to help or
what do you find is an effective way to teach
people how to see that? Because for most people,
they don't catch that as obviously as you do.
Well, there are some very good scoring tools
available. You know, there are also good scoring
tools available for body condition of dairy cows
or swollen hocks. And that's caused by poor bedding.
Maybe the freestyles or the cubicles are too
small and they're ripping up their hocks on the
concrete curb. There's some very nice scoring
tools that people can use for body condition,
dirty dairy cows, lameness, and they spill in
the blood leg joints. And I think it's very important
to actually measure those things. And then you
can tell, am I getting better on these things
or am I getting worse? And I have a book titled
Improving Animal Welfare Practical Approach,
and it's got references to scoring tools. I also
have a free paper that's titled understanding
the five domains, animal welfare framework, the
food animal supply chain managers, and I have
all kinds of references in there to the scoring
tools with an emphasis on the ones that are free,
unless the one that has the paywall is just so
good I just have to reference it. But there's
good scoring tools available that show visually
the lameness. It's usually videos. The other
ones are just pictures of different body condition
scores. different amounts of problems on the
legs. Like, for example, you look at your worst
leg, you're deaf normal, hair loss, swelling
smaller than a baseball, swelling larger than
a baseball. Just real simple, easy to use scoring
tools. They're very pictorial and visual. Okay.
And we'll make sure to put links to that as well.
Talking about that, you've talked a lot about
the lameness, but you also mentioned before there
about the congestive heart failure. Now, that's
a beef cattle issue, not a dairy cattle issue.
No, very much so. Well, that's not showing up
in the dairy cattle yet. But I did notice that.
It's been showing up in beef cattle, and the
research has shown that it's related to selecting
for meat traits, large rib eyes. We're doing
a study right now on looking at the marbling,
and then unfortunately electronic grading equipment
broke. And so we lost too much of the sample.
But it's definitely the congestive heart failure
in beef. I want to emphasize beef. We're going
with heavier animals at a younger age. A real
big heavy one used to be a three -year -old.
Now it's a two -year -old. And it's very popular
in the United States now in what's called beef
on dairy. And you take Angus semen, and you breed
it to dairy cows, and a lot of it's sexed semen,
and you get steers out of it. And some of the
feed yards that feed these cattle have traced
congestive heart failure issues back to single
Angus bulls, and they got rid of them. You know,
it's definitely a beef issue. Yeah, and I noticed
that because in your research you had here about
the percentage, I think it's 4 % in the Angus
cows. That was severe congestive heart failure.
You're ready to die. But milder levels of swelling.
And there's scorecards you can find very easily
online. A normal beef heart should be kind of
triangular. And then you have different degrees
of bloated soccer ball. the signs of swelling
you can find in 30%, 30 % in some groups of cattle,
but it's in some groups of cattle. Then you go
somewhere else and they don't seem to have a
problem with it. Because I think it's related
back to sires. And they see the beef on dairy
people, they kept really, really, really good
records. So they knew which bull bred what's
cow. Where your average cattle producer is using
natural breeding, obviously. I didn't know exactly
which bull bred which cow. Now, what if they
were using semen, but natural breeding, you wouldn't
know. Yeah, but how did you, like, what even
first turned you on to all of this? Because you've
gone quite deep, and it's quite impressive. Well,
I worked very hard to improve the handling at
the large slaughterhouses. Back in the 90s, I
designed a lot of equipment. I've designed all
the beef handling. Again, this is beef cattle
mostly, fed beef cattle, all the handling facilities
at most of the Cargill plants in the U .S. and
Canada. And I got a lot of nice equipment out
there. And then in 1999, I worked with McDonald's
and other companies to inspect the slaughterhouses.
And when you have big customers insisting on
standards, our plants got really, really good.
They put away the hot shots. They really started
to learn how to handle cattle. I thought everything
was just wonderful. And about 15 years ago, we
started getting the first hints of stuff like
heart failure, foot problems. And there's some
cattle that are really messed up. And you could
have the very best slaughterhouse. But if you
bring me a crippled heart patient, we're going
to have a hard time handling it humanely. It's
not going to want to walk. It's going to be weak.
And that's why I've gotten into this. because
it interferes with handling. We're going to have
transport issues. We're going to have animals
down. Animals die shortly before they're shipped.
Animals die in the yards at a plant. You get
into the real severe cases, and there's been,
in the research that I have reviewed, oh, there's
some groups of cattle that are just terrible.
Again, this is beef cattle, or it's beef on dairy.
So it's Holstein with an Angus sire. Yeah, but
especially over the last four or five years,
beef on dairy has become very, very popular in
the U .S. Very popular. And they make really
nice steers. Yeah. Which is interesting because
one of the things, and I was looking through
your research about this, and it comes up with
the Quizletch, or torture breeding. Well, that
torture breeding thing, That was suggested by
one of the reviewers. I had to send my paper
in for review, and they wanted me to add torture
breeding. I did not originally put that in the
paper, but the reviewer brought it up, and that's
what they call breeding where bad things start
to happen, and it was also aimed at dogs. I'm
going to be equally critical of bulldogs that
can't breathe, pugs that can't breathe, because
they're too flat. A year ago, I was at a vet
clinic. I saw a hideous x -ray. of the leg of
a dwarf naked cat with a bent, deformed leg bone,
and the joints break on these cats. I mean, why
are we breeding cats with joints that come apart?
I have problems with this. I'm going to be very
critical of the pets, too. And the reviewer suggested
that I put the torture breeding in there, and
that's a European term. No, that's interesting,
though, because when you parallel that to dairy
cattle, you know, we've bred so heavily for production
and components and lesser so for type, but we
haven't really paid as much attention until recently
for things like fertility and temperament and
health. And, you know, it's slowly coming around,
but I think things like this, you know, things
that maybe, especially to yourself. You kind
of saw innately we're slowly coming around to
a breeding, but seeing the side effects, and
you mentioned it earlier, that, you know, you
focus on one. See, what happens is these problems
creep up slowly. You see, the congestive heart
failure used to be confined to very high altitudes.
I'm sorry, I'm going to have to use English measurements,
but, you know, 12 ,000 feet, you know, really
high elevations. Where I'm at right now, we're
at 5 ,000. Now it's showing up in places that
are 2 ,000, you know, much, much lower altitudes.
And this is something that slowly got worse.
I call that bad becoming normal. And you don't
see it until it gets really bad. I mean, now
the industry recognizes that there's a problem.
And there's a test you can do called a PAP test.
We have a veterinarian here named Dr. Tim Holt
that tests arterial pressure. and breeding bulls
are good on that trade. But I think we have to
start looking at what's optimal. I went to a
very interesting crop seminar. What am I doing
at the crop seminar? Well, right around the first
of the year, I don't have any travel, so I went
to a field day about crops. And this guy that's
a researcher on crops said, the biggest, tallest
corn is not necessarily the best because you
have to put too many inputs into it. What is?
Optimal, not maximum. And he said this is a very,
very hard concept to get people to understand.
And I understand exactly what he's talking about.
We have to start looking at optimal milk production
balanced against things like fertility and mastitis
and other important things. See, we tend to get
into single trait selection, blindly following
the numbers. Meanwhile, we're breeding a four
-month -old heifer. It's got crossed toenails.
Yeah. And that's a genetic defect. Yeah. Now,
obviously throughout your career, you've battled
this in a sense of trying to educate people to
look at things differently. And obviously now
it's talking more about the implications and
the economic implications as well. How do you
find dealing with producers when you try to help
educate them on these things? Like what reaction
do you typically get? Some producers really have
a good, a really good reaction. And they've backed
off on some of the single trait breeding. Because
in some places, where it's gotten so extreme,
they're using a dairy cow for only two years
of lactation. Yeah. Doesn't make much sense.
It takes you two years to turn a calf into a
cow. Yeah. And they only use it for two years.
There's some people. realizing that that's kind
of folly and you probably want to get four years
out of her before you get rid of her. And I think
some of the people don't even know where all
the costs are at by producing, turning that baby
calf into a milking cow, which takes two years.
Well, and that's, and especially if you look
at over things like lately, um, the cost of replacements,
the cost of raising, It's so expensive. Well,
that's just it. It costs a lot of money to raise
that heifer into account. It takes you two years
from the time that the baby calf is born. And
you see people just get single -minded just looking
at the traits. Like, why have we got a problem
with breeding a bulldog with such a flat face
it can't breed? Well, they keep breeding the
breed standard. Short nose. Well, now you've
got the point with this. No nose. And you can
have a deformed mouth. And then when it gets
bigger, it has trouble eating. Yeah. And that's
what, you know, I would call, that would fit
in with this European definition of torture breeding.
Yeah. Which is interesting because I was doing
some research here and I was seeing that, like,
carcass weights in beef cattle have gone up significantly.
Oh, going up and up and up. And, but what's happening
now, it's interesting, is... is that they're
realizing, well, nobody wants a ribeye that covers
an entire plate. And we just have a new plant
that's being built and that's going to be selling
probably over half its production to one of our
major retailers. And they don't want this huge
cattle. They want a ribeye and they want stakes
that, you know, fit right on the plate. But we
got into this tremendous, gigantic cattle. And
now there's some people starting to back off
on this a little bit. And in dairy, it's been
quite the push, I would say, in the last two
or three years that the size, overall height,
more than anything of cows, has gotten too big
from many perspectives. Well, the other problem
we've got is our trucks. One of the problems
we've got here is over in Europe, or lorry, as
you call it in Europe, your lorries can go another
30 centimeters, 40 centimeters taller than our
trucks. The whole eastern United States, we had
a little problem with low railroad bridges. And
so what's happening now with some of these very
tall animals, whether they're dairy cows or they're
beef cattle, is when they come out of the bottom
compartment of these trucks, they're bashing
their backs on the upper deck as they unload
and bruised all over the backs. And, you know,
what we need to be doing is breed an animal that
will fit in the trucks. We are stuck. with our
lower height limitations in the U .S. compared
to Europe and Australia. And also, some of the
retailers don't want a ribeye that covers the
entire plate. It was interesting, but I've been
in the industry actually 50 years now. And when
I first started back in the 70s, I can remember
when the European continental cattle, the Chianinas,
The Charolais and some of these really big cattle
came into the U .S., and they were going to just
save the industry. Well, the problem we've got
on our arid rangeland, dry arid rangeland, is
you can't feed a gigantic cow. You're going to
go broke in the wintertime feeding it hay, and
people were saying, we don't want a ribeye that
fills up the plate. You see, now we've got gigantic,
and then one of our major retailers is going,
no, we don't want these giants. Let's back off
a little more moderate size for beef animals.
Yeah, which is interesting. And you talk about
like the transportation, but as you were talking
about it, and I think about some of the other
stuff is, and I don't know if you, how much you've
done or how much you've looked at, but like the
robotic milking in dairy cattle and kind of the,
not limitations, but there are challenges because
they are in a more confined space and everything.
Have you ever, have you done much work in looking
in that? I haven't done any work, but I've read
a lot of work. And in my book, Livestock, Handling,
and Transport, I had some people that were experts
in that do a chapter on it. And I've talked to
people that have gone to robots. And one of the
advantages for smaller dairy is it gets rid of
labor, some labor issues. It's really hard in
the U .S. sometimes to get labor for milking.
It gives a dairyman a more flexible schedule.
Now you've got to make sure you don't put too
many cows on a single unit. You take the time
to train the heifers. It's not automatic management.
No, no. I cannot emphasize enough. And these
machines require a lot of maintenance. And people
will ask me, well, which should I buy? I said,
you buy the one that has the best dealer in your
area for service. that's the brand that you need
to buy, and that's going to vary depending upon
where you live. Yeah. I just, I always wonder,
because you talked about, and I know some of
the things, like you talked about cows moving
into an uncomfortable space, because in that,
they're actually moving into quite a cramp, but
they're also getting fed and other things, so
there is an intense... Well, they're getting
fed grain, which is like cow candy. Yeah. And
I think one of the mistakes we made in our regular
dairies, when I first started in the 70s, all
of the dairies... fed grain in the parlor or
in the milking facility. And then that got phased
out. And it might have been a mistake. Now we're
seeing how they reacted grain in the robot. I
remember when every dairy fed in the parlor.
All of them did in the 70s. Yeah, which makes
me think, and you talk about, you use the term
quite a bit, the bad becoming normal. Bad becoming
normal happens when something slowly gets worse.
Now, there's lameness and dairy cattle is one
of those things. The congestive heart failure
is a thing of bad becoming normal. You can also
get problems with handling, where, okay, you
take your employees out, do a big workshop on
low -stress handling, and then if you don't measure
your handling, yelling and screaming and hitting
and tail -twisting, can come back slowly. And
the handling can deteriorate slowly and people
don't realize it. So I've developed some systems
for measuring handling because you manage what
you measure. And there are some dairies where
a high percentage of the cows have busted tails.
That's totally unacceptable. It's interesting
because every time you talk about trying to change
perception, It's either systems or scorecards.
You have very kind of clear thought processes
in helping people kind of understand the problem.
Is that just your way you like working that way,
or what is brought out of that? Well, a lot of
people like working that way. I have trained
almost 1 ,000 auditors to audit handling at slaughterhouses,
to audit on farms. We have a day -and -a -half
or two -day workshop. I said, get the body condition
scoring chart on your phone. And as you walk
down through the cows, you can pick off the skinny
ones, the ones that are noncompliant. And you
have your scorecard right there on your phone
and look at it. And, okay, is she too skinny?
You can just pick off the noncompliant ones.
You can pick off the ones that have got really
bad swollen hocks. And there's some good scoring
tools. European Animal Welfare Quality has also
got some nice scoring tools. But I want that
scoring tool there because if you put the scorecard
away, then your eye drifts. We found that's meat
grading. Now a lot of our meat grading is done
electronically, but your eye will drift. I'm
a big fan of having that scorecard right there
on your phone. So as you walk through them, you're
looking at the scorecard. And then your eye doesn't
drift. It's interesting. There's been a lot of
studies on what's called inter -observer reliability.
There's been a lot of studies on that. And you've
got to have things that are very simple, not
too many categories. Five is about the most categories.
We have a body condition score for beef that's
nine categories. I just hate it. Because you
just can't get... uh, interverbal liability.
You need at least four categories because you'd
have normal two degrees of abnormality and then
really atrocious. Yeah, but I'm a fan of this.
It works. And there's a lot of research to back
it up. And I have found that training people
to do this, if it's not simple, they cannot do
it. I have a two day workshop to train them in.
and then two or three practice audits with an
experienced auditor. That's the reality of training
commercial auditors. Now, you mentioned about
the commercial auditors, but then you also mentioned
about some of it being automated or... Yes, there
is some research now on AI. In fact, my former
student, Lily Calloway Edwards, or Edwards Calloway,
was approached by a company that does AI. that
was measuring and handling at the slaughterhouse.
And we're looking at things like use of electric
prods, falling, stocking density, stunning efficacy.
And they found in comparing the AI score with
skilled people going back and reviewing the videos
that for electric prod use, stocking density
in the wearage pens, falling down during handling,
and stunning, the AI was accurate. It did not
work for determining whether they'd made the
cattle unconscious. That's just a little more
complicated. But on the other hand, I don't think
you should totally just use the AI program. I've
always got to go back and calibrate it with some
real people. But I can see it could be a really
useful tool. The other thing, not automatic management.
I find in all the years I've been in the industry,
people want the thing. The magic new thing, the
robotic milker, the rotary parlor, the AI program,
they want it more than the management. And when
I first started, I thought I could build self
-managing cattle handling facilities. No, no
way. I can build good cattle handling facilities,
but they're not self -managed. That's where top
management has to decide they're going to do
something about lameness. Yeah, yeah. Or improve
their handling of their animals. So, when you
go in, and I know it's what you said, is there
common gaps you're finding that people kind of
miss? Like, is there something that you think,
hey, this is a common, even the machines kind
of, they're missing this aspect. What kind are
the gaps that you see people usually missing?
Well, the problem with the insensibility is that
you have to, a lot of the signs are more subtle.
You either put the electric part on the cattle
or you didn't. Fell, it didn't fall. It can easily
measure the stocking density. It shot the stunner
in the correct position or it didn't. AI program
can easily do that. But on some other things,
it's less clear. We had an argument going on
in a plant, in a slaughterhouse. When does tapping
an animal with a driving aid become beating an
animal? Like our rules for humane slaughter do
not allow beating. So when does tapping become
beating? So I made a video called Proper Use
of Livestock Driving Tools where I take a livestock
driving tool and I hit an empty box. A taped
up empty box. And when it starts to bend and
break, tapping has become beating. I wanted to
have something more objective because our USDA
can shut a plant down for beating up animals.
And there was a giant fight that happened at
a plant. Oh, we just tapped the animal with the
electric, with the paddle. We didn't beat it.
And so I made my video where I beat the box and
when it starts to break, and it's a standard
box, like it's something that Amazon might use.
And we used a square box. That was in English
measurements. It was just over a foot by a foot
by a foot. That would be 30 centimeters by 30
centimeters by 30 centimeters. taped the box
up and started whacking it with the paddle because
I wanted to have something more objective as
to when tapping became beating. It's interesting
because, and I think there's a research I think
that one of your undergrads did or students did,
that the gentle handling practices with dairy
cows And it showed that anywhere from 4 % to
13 % increase in production. Oh, yes. I mean,
stockmanship matters. There's a lot of research
on this. And there's old research on this, too.
Old research, some of it is older than me, like
the Seabrook papers and stuff that Jack Albright
did at Purdue. It matters. But what happens to
some of the handling, let's say yelling and screaming
and hitting, for example, is if you don't measure
it, It gradually gets worse, and people don't
realize it. I call it bad becoming normal. Yeah.
It gradually gets worse, and they don't realize
it until it gets really bad. Yeah, and I guess,
so what type of things would you say to people,
like, I guess it's mainly just observation, but,
you know, it becomes normal, but how do we stop
it from becoming normal? Well, top management
has to decide they're going to stop it. One thing
I have learned is top management, like a dairy
owner, for example, or if, let's say, a company
has more than one dairy, that local manager has
to get behind, we are going to change the way
we handle our animals. And if top management
doesn't get totally behind it, it doesn't happen.
This is something I've learned in all the work
I've done. Top management has to get behind it.
And in our slaughterhouse work, we found that
some plant managers ended up getting fired because
it wouldn't, change their handling, and then
when we got a new manager, the plant got good
almost like overnight. Top management has to
say, we are going to handle animals right. I
cannot emphasize how important that is. Do you
have examples of where you've worked with dairy
farms? No, the biggest majority of my work has
been beef. But I have worked with plants that
process dairy cows, and one of the big problems
is the cow coming in in really bad condition,
what they call timely marketing. Way too many
cows are entering the plant with full udders,
just dripping milk, thinking they're going to
get milked when they go to a slaughterhouse.
It's the most pathetic thing you ever saw. No,
the cow needs to be sold before she gets completely
debilitated. There's still way too many of them
coming in bad condition. And that's some of the
latest research where auditors went out and they
looked at all the big cow slaughter plants in
the U .S. There's still way too many of them
coming in, way too skinny, lame, not really fit
for transport. That's still an issue. And there's
other dairies that do a really good job. It's
interesting because, and I'll segue a little
bit here, but, you know, we talked about the
beef on dairy trend coming, but, like, I don't
think dairy farmers have never had to think as
a beef producer before. That's correct, that
the cow has a second career as beef. Yeah, but
now, obviously, especially with even just the
beef on dairy and the young calves, it's become
a huge aspect. Yeah, it's become absolutely huge
in the last five years. Financially rewarding.
But what would you say to a dairy farmer who
is getting into that and is now having to think
about things like, hey, when I'm sending my animal
to slaughter or I'm doing this, I really should
consider X, Y, and Z, because maybe they've never
ever really had to think about that before. Well,
it's just sort of like put it on the truck and
he just disappears. Yeah, but it's different
now, or there's more to it than that. Well, you
see now that the beef on dairy animals is a young
animal. Mm -hmm. They, you know, get raised.
specifically for beef. And now that those bull
calves that used to just be kind of a waste byproduct
now worth something. And then they figure out
how many replacement heifers they need and use
sex semen to get mostly bull calves. In the U
.S. we make steers out of them. We don't raise
them intact here. I know in some places in Europe
they raise them intact. And if you do that...
You need to keep them with their pen mate group
or they'll fight and have B quality issues. Yeah.
Yeah, you raise intact bulls, they've got to
stay with their pen mate groups. So, and I know
you're working on, I think it's called the FSNSCA
Temple Grandin Responsible Care Program, as well
as Nolan Ryan B Focus Audits. Yeah, I worked
with a bunch of different places. I worked with
McDonald's. And that's mainly been on the slaughterhouse
inspections. And one of the things we look at
is also the condition of the animal coming in.
And there's some dairy cows coming in in awful
condition. And there's other dairies that send
them in when they're still fit for travel. Yeah,
and you mentioned earlier about needing to be
milked or should have been milked before they
were seen. Oh, it's disgusting. The amount of
cattle, oh, over half of them are coming in with
full udders. Are there other trends or other
things you were finding with the audits when
dairy cattle were coming in? Were there other
problems or mainly around the milk? For auditors,
it's a big problem. And the other thing that's
a big problem is some of them have just got too
debilitated. Now, in the U .S., because of bovine
spongiform, you know, the mad cow disease, a
downed animal that cannot walk, we cannot slaughter
that. That has to be euthanized in the laryng
and sent to rendering. And that was something
that started after the mad cow disease. If they
can't walk up the raceway to the stunner, they
go in a rubbish window. So that will help some.
But what happens is a lot of people just drop
them off at the auction, and they disappear.
I don't think about what's happening further
on down the line. And the other problem you've
got with full udders is the milk contaminates
the meat. And then they got to trim that meat
off. Yeah. Yeah. Curiosity. Like, like I say,
still putting it out as like the beef quality
difference from a dairy, beef on dairy calf versus
a beef calf. But I think they've already started
putting out. Well, the beef on dairy, they marble
really well. They make some very nice beef. Yeah.
It's now that bull calf that used to be worthless
and treated badly. Yeah. It's now worth something
if it's bred to an Angus bull. Yeah. You know,
fired by an Angus bull. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No,
I was just thinking about it because I was going
through and it's changing. I think it's maybe
a bigger impact on the dairy business than it
is the beef industry as far as. market share,
but it's changed the economics of dairy farming
quite heavily. Oh yeah, absolutely. I think it's
really a good thing. But we now have a shortage
of fresh dairy cows because everyone spreads
so much to beef that we don't have as many replacement
dairy cows. Well, they've gone overboard on the
beef. It's like a lot of things. People go overboard
on it. They need to figure out how many replacement
heifers they need. And make sure they bring them.
And it takes me back to thinking of you about
your bad becoming normal. Like, we just went
so hard that it just seemed normal, and now we're
paying the price for going too far in one direction.
Well, this tends to happen. People have a tendency
to go too far on something. Then the pendulum
swings back, but sometimes the too far gets kind
of bad before they realize the pendulum needs
to swing back. Yeah. And we're having to almost
buy. Necessity at this point because farmers
can't produce as much milk if you don't have
as many cows to milk and they're not able to
replace them. Exactly. You've got to figure out,
you really need to figure out how many milking
cows you're going to need so you breed enough
replacements. Yeah. Yeah, you've got to figure
that out. Yeah. Now, I was sitting here and actually
one of the first things that started me down
the avenue With you and looking, because I always
associated more with beef, a little bit with
dairy, but more with beef. Yeah, beef has been
what I've mainly worked on. But then I would
say, oh, I think it's about two months ago now,
but when your AVMA award, Humane Award, was announced,
I know you're receiving it here shortly, but
when you announced it, and we posted it on our
Facebook page, and I think it reached almost
two million people. on our Facebook page. So
then I realized that, hey, even in the dairy
audience, which is not saying that, but I always
associate it more that way, there is certainly
a lot of respect for the work you have done for
cattle in general, meaning not just beef. Well,
we always want to try to have some very objective
things. In food safety, we have a concept called
critical control points. You can't measure everything.
So when I look at what are critical control points,
let's say for dairy, lactating dairy, cow, welfare,
Well, let's look at some of the basics. Body
condition score, dirty, sores and lesions on
the legs, and length. Those are four very important
things that I can easily measure, and there's
good, easy -to -use scoring tools available.
And by measuring those things, you can make sure
you don't have some of the worst animal welfare
issues. Now, the other thing that's coming up
now in animal welfare science, is we've got to
prevent cruelty. You know, and those four critical
control points prevent suffering. Okay, you let
an animal get a gigantic swollen joint. Yeah,
that's definitely suffering. That's not okay.
But then doesn't an animal have any positive
experiences in its life? I've seen dairy cows
on those videos, and I've also watched them on
the dairy, use those motorized brushes. I'm not
supposed to say an animal loves something. They
love those brushes. You need to look at those
YouTube videos. It's obvious. And that's something
that's giving the animal a good time. We've also
got to make sure it has a life worth living.
And if you live in a filthy, dirty barn full
of ammonia and you've got giant swollen hocks,
you probably don't have a life worth living.
So that's something that's getting more of an
emphasis where, yes, we've got to prevent suffering.
But that alone is not sufficient. This is where
the animal welfare science is going right now.
And the big trend we have, especially in dairy
right now, or one of the trends, I think it's
in beef as well, is the precision livestock sensors
and monitoring everything. Yeah, and there's
some good things. Like there's Merck has a program
where they can monitor whether cows are in heat.
They have a collar. They can monitor rumination.
There's some really good things. that can be
done with remote sensing. But again, it's not
automatic management. No, I think you can see
the numbers and maybe see that it's bad, but
it doesn't solve the problem for you. I think
that's where a lot of the stuff, especially with
what you do. No, it doesn't solve the problem.
Because on the system, you've got, it'll tell
you whether the cow's in heat or whether she's
sick. You've got to bring the cow in and temp
them and check them for mastitis. You still have
to bring them in. It will tell you there's a
problem, but it doesn't fix the problem. No.
See, this is where the management has to really
get behind doing things right. Because when I
first started out, I thought I could build a
handling facility that would be so good that
you just automatically would have good handling.
Rubbish. You have to have management that...
She says, okay, we are not going to yell and
scream at our cows. We're not going to hit them.
We're going to bed our cubicles really well so
we don't get swollen hops. One of my students
in 2007 did a paper. She went to over 100 dairies
in the U .S. and places that bedded their stalls
better had less swollen hops. You see, and there's
also a design. Some of the cubicles have gotten
too small for some of the big, gigantic cows.
And then the rear end of the cow goes over the
curb. And that's where the joints get on the
concrete, on the curb. But she also found that
the really good management greatly reduced swollen
hearts. Yes, very much so. But it's interesting
because you even brought up about the brushes.
I'm like, it's not just about doing the minimum
to not hurt them. I think a big opportunity,
especially I would say within dairy because I'm
more familiar, Maybe not worrying about just,
well, obviously we ought to limit what hurts
them, but I think we need to think more about
what rewards them or what actually makes it.
Like a soft, dry place to lay down. Yeah. The
research is clear on that. Yes. And sometimes
they, ideally you should have one cubicle or
one freestall per animal. And some people are
really shortening them on the amount of freestalls.
And there's a point where people push it, where
they put too many animals on a single robotic
milking unit, and you're going to be in trouble.
In pigs, we have robotic feeders for pigs. And
you put too many sows on one feeder, you get
into trouble. People are always pushing a woman.
And then also, a lot of this equipment takes
a lot of maintenance. You've got to take care
of it. I'd use, let's say, for a new milking
parlor. I'm going to buy it from a dealer that
has the best service because that thing has to
be maintained. Whether I buy this brand or that
brand, I'm going to put a lot of emphasis on
which dealer has the best repair people and maintenance
people to come out and keep my equipment functioning
right. It's interesting and nice thinking about
it, but the other thing that's right now is that
we're very much breeding for a smaller cow. We're
even changing our national indexes in the states.
The net merit index has a less emphasis than
the TPI index on stature. I think that's good
on a smaller cow because they rip their backs
apart when they come out of the bottom deck of
the truck, and they've already modified the trailers
with a flip -up ramp. That gives you another
five inches of space. But we've got a height
limitation that's a lot lower than Europe. Eastern
United States, you're stuck with it. Too many
low railroad bridges. Well, as I say, and even
in cows in the facilities, in stalls, it's easier
to... They don't fit in the older barns. They
don't fit in the stalls. And in my welfare book,
I've got a picture of a big, gigantic cow where
her... rear end is going over the curb and her
hawk joints are right on the concrete curb and
then the cow that fits in the stall same barn
i got a picture of them right beside each other
students can look at to see whether or not stalls
fit the cows and we we kid but don't kid that
or when i work with some herds is it's easier
to breed a smaller cow than it is to build a
new barn exactly Oh, exactly. It's easier to
breed a smaller cow that fits in the trailer,
in the truck, too. Because we're kind of stuck
with some of the trucks we've got. And they will
put a gigantic bruise right down the spine when
the cow comes out of the bottom deck. Because,
you see, in Australia, you can put two decks
of cattle above the wheels. We can't do that
in the U .S. because of our height limitations.
But that's why our trucks have to, what they
call, have a pot in between the wheels and you
have to have a lamp to come up out of the pot
and and then you have a top deck and then they
hit the top deck as you come out you beat a smaller
cow then you don't have this problem yeah very
much what's this ringing i keep hearing sorry
it's my recording program telling me i don't
know how to turn it off but i'll oh okay sorry
um the other thing i was thinking is that you
talk about different standards everywhere One
of the things I think is also that's quite different
is the use of cattle prods. Like in Europe, it's
not allowed. My feeling on cattle prods is, well,
I'd like to say I'm not using the milking parlor,
but let's say beef or dairy slaughterhouse. This
is where I've had, what our plants have done,
we used to have them all over the yards. Truck
drivers had them, everything was shocking, everything.
What we've done on our big plants is ban them
for the trucks. Like a big fed beef plant, band
them in the yard or in the leverage area. They
have one electric prod at the stun box entrance,
and it cannot be in somebody's hand. It either
has to be on a shelf, or it leans against the
wall, or it hangs on a nail. And it's only picked
up if you get an animal, don't go in the stun
box. Well, you buzz it once, and then put it
away. Because otherwise, they're hitting them.
breaking their tails. Now, to my feeling, an
electric prod is not a total ban, but get it
out of your hand. It must never be the primary
driving tool. So our really good fed beef plants,
they've gotten the use of the electric prod,
maybe 15 % of the animals at the stun box get
one buzz, and it's banned on the trucks, like
our two big fed beef plants here in Colorado.
I just recently have been over at them. It's
banned in the leverage. It's banned on the trucks.
They have one electric pod at the sun box entrance,
and it's only picked up for the occasional stubborn
animal and then put away. Because when you totally
ban them, I've seen some pretty abusive stuff.
That's when a tail gets broken. And we also need
to take the time to introduce heifers to the
parlor quietly, and this is where I think we
made a mistake taking the... grain feeding out
of the milking parlor. Now in a parallel parlor,
you'd have a really hard time putting it back
in, but a rotary, you could put it back in. Because
I remember when we grain fed in parlors. That's
where being 50 years in the, and I actually did
quite a bit of milking of cows in different dairies
in the early 70s when I was livestock editor
for our state farm mix for seven years in the
70s. There were dairies I used to go over and
milk cows in just to try out the equipment. Yep,
yep. And those all had grain feeding, and I think
it helped get them in there. And then they went
to the totally mixed ration, or the TMR, and
they stopped the grain feeding. And the thing
is, you don't have to feed them very much. Just
a few. You could feed them a coffee cup of feed,
and that would get them in the parlor. You could
still use your TMR. You just need to give them
a taste. But I've worked on rewarding animals
to cooperate with veterinary procedures. Oh,
you could take one little teaspoon you'd have
for your coffee cup, horse feed, and I could
get sheep just to line up for the privilege of
going on the tilt table for one teaspoon of horse
feed. I was recently just in the Azores, so Portugal,
but the island, and feeding is... The grain is
very expensive because they have to bring it
in. So they don't do much of it, but they still
do it in the parlor. And you only need a little
bit. It doesn't have too much, but just a little
bit. And it makes a world of difference from
the cows. I think we made a big mistake taking
that out because when I started out in the 70s,
for all the dairies in the 70s in Arizona, and
we were a big dairy state, fed in the parlor.
All of them did when I first started. I saw 10
years of feeding in the parlor. And then in the
80s, they started phasing it out. When the parallels
came in, you know, you can't feed nose. But I
think it was a mistake taking that out. So, and
you're talking, so over 50 years, you've been
doing this. What still drives you? Because you've
been doing it quite long and you seem to be still
quite passionate about it. What keeps driving
you? Well, the handling has gotten 1 ,000 % better.
Dairy cattle and beef cattle both. Handling has
really gotten better. Our different associations,
like our Beef Cattle Association, has handling
workshops that they've been doing all over the
country, and it's been getting a lot of push
for low -stress handling. That's something that's
absolutely wonderful, all this low -stress handling,
and now we're getting problems with foot abnormalities
and congestive heart failure. You know, somebody
had said to me 15 years ago if that would happen,
I would have thought it was crazy. But now this
interferes with my good handling. If I've got
animals with sore feet and they're weak from
problems with their heart, they're not going
to want to move. So then what happens? They get
abused when they don't want to move. Yeah, yeah,
unfortunately. But you see, grain's expensive,
but you only need a taste to get them into the
parlor. It's amazing how the small amount that
will work as a reward, just a taste of candy,
gets them in. You talked a lot about management
needs to get on board with all of this, to understand
this. What advice would you give management,
say, someone, if they said, okay, I get it, I
got to do something, what should I do? Well,
first of all, I just went out to a beef cattle
place. I'm not going to say it. where it is,
but I was just there just the other day. And
they raise beef cattle, Angus beef cattle out
on pasture. And I didn't see their handling,
but they told me they yell and scream at them,
and they whack them with the driving tools. And
I said, the first thing we've got to do is to
stop yelling and screaming at them. The research
is clear that yelling and screaming really stresses
cattle out. and then I had a few simple changes
they could make on their handling facility. They
had a well -built steel handling facility, some
layout mistakes, but we're not tearing that up,
and I just showed them you need to put a solid
side up here so they don't see the operator or
the squeeze chute when they come in, and don't
park three pickups right in front of the facility.
Let's just do those two simple changes, but the
manager has to decide that they're going to stop.
yelling and screaming at cattle and hitting them.
Because once they get all fearful and scared,
it takes 20 minutes for cattle to calm down if
you get them all scared. Yeah. If they get scared
instantly, 20 minutes to calm down. So the first
thing is we're not going to yell and scream at
them. That's the first thing we've got to do.
We've got to do that. And we'll make these simple
changes in the facility, put up a solid side
so they don't see. People up ahead and park the
pickup so that the cattle don't see the vehicles
as they come up the chute. Those are simple things
to do. But there's a lot of low stress handling
workshops doing really good things. But in the
beginning, I just worked the basics. Don't yell
and scream at them and hit them. That's the first
thing we've got to do. And then there's a lot
of things that the low stress handling people
can teach you. Flight zone, point of balance,
exactly where to stand. But the first thing that
people have to do is you've got to have calm
down. You've got to calm down. And it seems like
common sense, but the research also backs it
quite heavily too. Research backs it up. And
there's a lot of research, old research and new
research, and it all tells you the same thing.
And people that like animals tend to have a better
attitude. and they're more willing to calm down
and stop screaming at them. Yeah, yeah, no, very
much so. I appreciate that. So now we've talked
a lot about your work within the cattle and livestock,
and one of the things I wanted to share was,
as much as I know you say you've done mostly
in beef, I think your impact has been felt. I
would say that, yeah, and I do quite a bit of
pig work too. Beef is what I've worked on the
most, worked on. But I would say that your impact
has been in many different areas, because even
if you haven't worked directly yourself, the
lessons that others have learned from what you
teach in the beef side have been brought over
to other parts. Oh, it applies to all the animals.
And I have a book you might be interested in.
It's called The Grandin Papers. And what I did
in this book is take all my best journal articles,
compile them into one book, and I have a little
forward for each article explaining why I picked
it. It's called the Grandin Papers. Okay. We'll
very much incorporate that. And I just want to
say that we appreciate it, the work you've done.
I think you're with your award with the... No,
I also try to keep it really, really practical.
Okay, I went out to this farm, and they don't
exactly have that much money, but they build
a decent steel handling facility. It's not the
design I would have picked, but it's usable.
I can't go out there and just recommend they
tear that up because it's not one of my designs.
I recommend a place to put up some solid sides
just in two places to put plywood on the sides
and get the vehicles out of the way. And then
let's start with stopping screaming and yelling.
Let's start there. And one of the other things.
These simple things. And it's going to make a
big difference. Okay. I was just there two days
ago. Okay. And I was thinking, in doing this,
my wife, who doesn't come from a dairy background,
but she's an emergency psychiatrist. We watched
your movie, and it was interesting. Okay, the
HBO movie. The HBO movie, yes. But we both took
different things out. She looked at it from the
perspective of just human behavior. But the similarities
and how you looked at it and all that, she was
fascinated that way. Of course, I was fascinated
because I come from the livestock side. I was
fascinated from that side. But it was interesting
just to see your impact there, too, that she
has no dairy cattle or no cattle connection,
but still was fascinated with the work you had
done and the perspective you brought to things
and the challenges you faced. Well, the movie
showed how I think visually. Yeah. That's accurate.
The movie shows that, and it's accurate. Yeah.
What were your thoughts on the movie? Did you
enjoy doing that? I thought they did a really
good job of the visual thinking shown accurately.
They duplicated my projects off of original drawings.
And Claire Danes imitated my voice so good that
when I was interviewed on the radio and they
had Claire Danes talking and then me talking,
I almost mixed us up. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's how
good she was at imitating me. I think it's also
quite a testament to you that, you know, here's
a mainstream media movie about your life that
tells you just how much of an impact you've had.
And I think that's quite impressive. Well, I
want to say there's other kids that, you know,
I had no speech until age four. I was the kind
of kid that, you know, thought I could just go
nowhere, not good at math, visual thinkers. But
then when we were out building facilities, I
found people that owned big machine shops. that
were probably autistic, and they couldn't do
higher math. But boy, they could build anything.
They could just see how to build it. And they
invented a lot of mechanical equipment. It's
interesting because when we talked about this,
and there's been some recent developments politically
about funding or working with autism, but I think
you're the textbook case of why, You just need
to find the strengths in it as opposed to...
Exactly. Well, Einstein didn't speak to age three.
He had autism. Bill Gates has a book. He's autistic.
Yeah. Those are two brilliant minds right there.
As I say, the impact. And so it's been huge.
I think it's more just... I'll call it channeling
the focus or focusing it in the right direction.
Well, that's right. And you see the kids that...
See, actually, I was out on a huge construction
project. They were building giant tanks. And
tanks as in containers, not war tanks. And one
of the things they're concerned about is losing
their know -how. I watched them take a crane
and place a huge pie -shaped panel in place to
be part of the top of this tank. And I took an
hour to place this one panel. I watched how they
did the whole thing. And I go, that takes a lot
of know -how. And we had a discussion afterwards
that they're very concerned about the people
that are retiring that have the know -how and
not replacing them. And a lot of these people
that have the know -how, they might be dyslexic,
they might be somewhat autistic, they took shop
when they were kids, they just started out working
in the field, and they figure out how to do this
stuff. Yep. And it's a different skill set than
the engineer mathematician who designs the panel.
Okay, I've got to make it out of this steel.
It's going to have this curvature. It's going
to be this thickness of steel. And I don't want
to waste steel making it, but I can't make it
so light it's going to break. Okay, that's the
mathematician. But then to place this thing,
you've got to have the crane in just the right
position. You have to keep the boom pretty straight.
because the panel's extremely heavy. You tip
the crane over if you put the boom too far down.
You see, that's the know -how. I'm very glad
I saw this, because this gets into my sort of
stuff I've been activating about on visual thinking.
And we're screening out these visual thinkers
that know exactly how to move that panel. I watch
them lift it up, take a little weight off of
it with the crane, put the weight back down with
the crane, and get the panel to bend some so
they could put it in place. This is a huge construction
company. And I said, the people that you need
are in the basement playing video games on autism
diagnosis. They've never been introduced to tools.
But some of the people I worked with in the 80s
and 90s when I was out on these big projects
with Cargill, they were definitely autistic.
You know, it's on the milder end of the spectrum.
And you can have the visual thinking autistic,
and then you have the mathematical mind autistic.
that does the computer programming. And I review
a lot of scientific papers. I got a paper right
now, a method section system. It's awful. They
sent me pages and pages and pages of computer
programming. Ouch. But where is your method section?
Where did you get the data that you put into
the computer program? Mm -hmm. Yeah, I'm going
to have to write a review on it. I'm going to
be looking at a report because you're not telling
me where you got the data. You put in, you sent
me 20 pages of computer programming. But I have
to know where the data came from. You see, that's
methods. And that's the one thing, and I look
at the way the world is headed now, and obviously
AI is a huge trend in all things in life. Oh,
I know. I know it is. But I think it misses the
gap, and almost the gap that you specialize in
is that it just doesn't look at things from the
perspective or the other side of things that
you still need. I think you need the balance
of the two. You need the balance. Because let's
say for food processing, for example, let's say
dairy processing plant will get into your industry.
You have the visual thinkers who are not mathematicians
designing all the mechanical things. But we need
mathematicians to do the refrigeration. I have
seen that division of labor in every, mainly
beef plants has been the biggest thing I've worked
on. But the refrigeration requires a lot of mathematics.
But the mechanical devices, I know a guy that
has a specialty food plant, and I have to be
vague about this equipment because I can't identify
what it is. These people are not disclosed. But
I talked to a guy who has a big specialty food
business, and he started out washing dairy equipment
in a dairy processing plant. He would have been
every diagnosis in the book, we've talked about
it, but totally crappy student. Then he started
repairing the equipment. Then he started inventing
it. Yeah. That's the kind of mind that we're
not replacing them. The people I've worked with
are all 50, 60, 70. I'll be 78 this summer. And
it's been quite the career so far. And it doesn't
sound like you're slowing up. And now, right
now, I'm so concerned about... Losing some of
our visual thinkers, they'd be some of your best
people working with the dairy cows. Oh, yeah.
Yeah, for sure. They'd be some of absolutely
the best people. And what's happening is, okay,
on the mechanical stuff and the skilled trade
stuff, is, okay, kids in special ed, they say
special ed kids can't take shop. And I say, in
my generation, special ed kids owned the machine
shops. Mm -hmm. And I'm not saying that's a joke.
No, no. I was out on these projects. Okay, I
went out on one huge construction project just
two weeks ago. And I watched them put this big
panel in place. And we talked about loss of know
-how. And I said, a lot of know -how went into
this. And I said, it often doesn't get enough
credit. Yeah. No, and that's... Something I'm
very concerned about. is some of the people you
really need. They're not going to be the mathematicians.
A lot of people I work with that can't do algebra,
I can't do algebra either. It's too abstract.
Yeah, and I think that's the one lesson I think
everyone should take from here, is that we need
to continue to, almost more so than ever, look
at things differently and preserve the people
who do look at things differently. We need the
different kinds of thinkers in just building...
something like a milk processing plant, is that
the visual thinkers do all the mechanical equipment,
but you've got to have mathematics for refrigeration.
The same thing is true in a beef plant, which
is the thing I've had the most experience with.
And even though a construction project has nothing
to do with the livestock industry, this is true.
For those people who want to learn more about
this or learn more about your perspective, where
should we send them? My book, Visual Thinking.
I've got a book called Visual Thinking. The title
is Visual Thinking, The Hidden Gifts of People
Who Think in Pictures, Patterns, and Abstractions.
Visual Thinking, The Hidden Gifts of People Who
Think in Pictures, Patterns, and Abstractions.
And that was my big, gigantic COVID project.
Okay. And what I found were the different kinds
of minds there. I would do the rough drafts,
kind of disorganizing. Betsy, my verbal co -author,
she smoothed them all out. So that's different
minds working together, cooperating together,
and taking advantage of the different kinds of
thinking. Okay. And you think that would apply
well for dairy farmers as well? Oh, it would
apply to anything. This applies to anything.
It applies to any field. That's a wrap on today's
deep dive into Dr. Temple Grandin's revolutionary
work and her critical message for dairy farmers.
From her early days observing cattle stopping
at shadows to her current warnings about genetic
extremism, her journey reminds us that the most
valuable insights often come from seeing the
world differently. The key takeaways for your
operation? Start measuring what matters. Laminase
rates, handling stress, and genetic balance.
Remember, gentle handling can boost milk production
by up to 13%, while every lame cow costs you
800 pounds per lactation. And as Dr. Grandin
warns, if you're breeding for maximum production
at the expense of fertility and longevity, you
might be setting yourself up for expensive problems
down the road. Her upcoming AVMA Humane Award
isn't just recognition for past achievements.
It's a platform for an urgent message about the
future of livestock genetics and welfare. The
question isn't whether you can afford to implement
her principles. It's whether you can afford not
to. Want to dive deeper into the research and
practical applications we discussed today? Visit
www .thebullvine .com for the full feature article
on Dr. Grandin's work, complete with implementation
strategies and economic analysis. Before you
go, remember that every cow in your herd is communicating
through her behavior, her movement, and her performance.
The question is, are you listening? Thanks for
joining us on The Bullvine Podcast. Until next
time, keep pushing the boundaries of what's possible
in dairy farming. But remember, sometimes the
biggest breakthroughs come from simply seeing
through your animal's eyes. This has been the
Bullvine Podcast, where genetics meet management
and innovation meets implementation. We'll see
you next time.