WEBVTT 00:00:10.220 --> 00:00:14.039 Creeping across the pasture land. Got dirt on 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:18.719 the boots and a working hand. From the milk house 00:00:18.719 --> 00:00:24.000 home to the auction call. These are the folks 00:00:24.000 --> 00:01:01.780 standing strong and tall. Yeah, this is... Welcome 00:01:01.780 --> 00:01:04.359 to the Bullvine Podcast, where we dive deep into 00:01:04.359 --> 00:01:06.959 the stories, science, and strategies shaping 00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:10.159 the future of dairy farming. I'm your host, and 00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:12.260 today we're exploring the remarkable journey 00:01:12.260 --> 00:01:15.099 and urgent message of one of agriculture's most 00:01:15.099 --> 00:01:19.219 influential voices, Dr. Temple Grandin, the name 00:01:19.219 --> 00:01:22.379 that commands instant respect across cattle barns 00:01:22.379 --> 00:01:25.629 and boardrooms alike. When we posted news of 00:01:25.629 --> 00:01:29.290 her 2025 AVMA Humane Award on our Facebook page, 00:01:29.489 --> 00:01:32.310 it reached nearly 2 million people, proving that 00:01:32.310 --> 00:01:34.829 her impact extends far beyond the beef industry, 00:01:35.010 --> 00:01:38.969 where she built her reputation. At 78, Dr. Grandin 00:01:38.969 --> 00:01:42.049 isn't slowing down. She's sounding the alarm 00:01:42.049 --> 00:01:44.769 about what she calls biological system overload, 00:01:45.129 --> 00:01:48.150 the dangerous pursuit of maximum production over 00:01:48.150 --> 00:01:51.189 optimal performance that's quietly bankrupting 00:01:51.189 --> 00:01:54.069 operations across the country. Her latest research 00:01:54.069 --> 00:01:56.629 shows that our relentless focus on single traits 00:01:56.629 --> 00:01:59.530 is pushing cattle beyond their natural limits, 00:01:59.730 --> 00:02:02.530 with consequences we're only beginning to understand. 00:02:03.349 --> 00:02:05.950 This is more than just an animal welfare story. 00:02:06.129 --> 00:02:08.430 It's about the future of dairy profitability, 00:02:08.810 --> 00:02:11.849 the genetics decisions you're making today, and 00:02:11.849 --> 00:02:14.330 why the woman who couldn't speak until age four 00:02:14.330 --> 00:02:17.449 became the voice that's transforming how we think 00:02:17.449 --> 00:02:21.610 about cattle. From her revolutionary cow's eye 00:02:21.610 --> 00:02:24.349 view of facility design to her urgent warnings 00:02:24.349 --> 00:02:27.449 about genetic extremism, Dr. Grandin's insights 00:02:27.449 --> 00:02:30.210 could reshape how you approach everything from 00:02:30.210 --> 00:02:33.710 handling practices to breeding decisions. Whether 00:02:33.710 --> 00:02:35.770 you're dealing with laminase rates, struggling 00:02:35.770 --> 00:02:38.710 with reproductive efficiency, or trying to optimize 00:02:38.710 --> 00:02:42.169 your milk production, her message is clear. Optimal 00:02:42.169 --> 00:02:45.830 beats maximum every time. Let's discover why 00:02:45.830 --> 00:02:48.550 understanding what your cows see might be the 00:02:48.550 --> 00:02:51.689 key to unlocking their full potential and yours. 00:02:51.889 --> 00:02:55.030 So let's start with the foundation of your work. 00:02:55.090 --> 00:02:59.629 You describe having autism as having a very much 00:02:59.629 --> 00:03:02.469 different perspective on animal behavior. How 00:03:02.469 --> 00:03:05.810 can you describe the first time you realized 00:03:05.810 --> 00:03:08.830 that visual thinking helped you see things differently? 00:03:09.530 --> 00:03:11.710 than maybe others had missed. What was that like 00:03:11.710 --> 00:03:15.150 for you? Well, when I first started working with 00:03:15.150 --> 00:03:18.770 beef cattle back in the early 70s, I thought 00:03:18.770 --> 00:03:21.289 everybody was a visual thinker. I didn't know 00:03:21.289 --> 00:03:24.289 that my thinking was different. So it was obvious 00:03:24.289 --> 00:03:27.550 to me to look at what cattle were seeing when 00:03:27.550 --> 00:03:29.889 they went to a shoot. They'd stop at a shadow. 00:03:30.069 --> 00:03:32.569 They'd stop at a coat on a fence. They'd stop 00:03:32.569 --> 00:03:35.129 if there was reflection on a vehicle parked nearby. 00:03:36.009 --> 00:03:38.069 And other people weren't noticing these things, 00:03:38.150 --> 00:03:39.669 and they thought it was really weird to get in 00:03:39.669 --> 00:03:42.310 the shoots. And I didn't know that most other 00:03:42.310 --> 00:03:46.430 people think a lot more verbally. And it wasn't 00:03:46.430 --> 00:03:50.949 until my late 30s that I had any inkling that 00:03:50.949 --> 00:03:54.050 other people were much more verbal in their thinking. 00:03:54.490 --> 00:03:57.770 And now this research, which I've described in 00:03:57.770 --> 00:04:01.330 detail in my book, Visual Thinking, that people 00:04:01.330 --> 00:04:03.449 who are object visualizers, people like me that 00:04:03.449 --> 00:04:06.539 think in pictures. are very different than people 00:04:06.539 --> 00:04:09.599 who think in patterns, which these people would 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:12.400 be really good at mathematics and music. And 00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:15.159 then a lot of people are mixtures. But being 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:18.040 a visual thinker helped me in working with animals 00:04:18.040 --> 00:04:22.579 because animals live in a sensory -based world, 00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:27.019 not a word -based world. Why is it seeing, hearing, 00:04:27.300 --> 00:04:32.689 experiencing? It's sensory -based. I tell people, 00:04:32.709 --> 00:04:35.089 you want to understand dairy cattle or any other 00:04:35.089 --> 00:04:38.730 animal, you need to get away from verbal language. 00:04:40.009 --> 00:04:44.889 Now, you've almost used that to shape your whole 00:04:44.889 --> 00:04:48.529 career, the whole visual perspective versus verbal 00:04:48.529 --> 00:04:51.410 in there. And it's quite the career you've had. 00:04:51.829 --> 00:04:55.529 I would think it's well over 40 years that you've 00:04:55.529 --> 00:04:59.509 been working in this field. What's the major 00:04:59.509 --> 00:05:02.319 shift? You've had some major shifts. as well, 00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:05.639 though, in your perspective over the years. And 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:08.220 more recently, it seems you've added in or been 00:05:08.220 --> 00:05:11.160 looking at kind of more than just the physical, 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:16.040 but also the genetic components. Yes. How much 00:05:16.040 --> 00:05:19.120 has that kind of genetics entered into your thinking 00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:22.839 about animal welfare? Well, from the very first 00:05:22.839 --> 00:05:26.079 temperament research for beef cattle, my graduate 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:28.279 student did, and we had a very simple hypothesis. 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:32.079 This is back in the early to mid -90s. that cattle 00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:34.160 that get upset and jump around in swing chutes 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:36.800 would have lower weight gains. And it turned 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:40.680 out to be true. And the other thing is, people 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:43.839 were back then denied animals' emotions. I was 00:05:43.839 --> 00:05:46.879 not allowed to use the word fear in my papers. 00:05:46.939 --> 00:05:50.860 I had to take that out. And then another researcher 00:05:50.860 --> 00:05:52.980 named Paul Hemsworth, who mainly worked with 00:05:52.980 --> 00:05:56.480 pigs, did start using the word fear in his paper. 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:59.120 And there's been a whole lot of research, going 00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:02.689 back to Jack Albright, at the Purdue University 00:06:02.689 --> 00:06:06.810 that stockmanship matters. If you're rough with 00:06:06.810 --> 00:06:09.170 dairy cattle, they're going to give less milk. 00:06:09.709 --> 00:06:12.689 There's a bunch of research on a lot of different 00:06:12.689 --> 00:06:16.889 kinds of animals that show that, both old studies 00:06:16.889 --> 00:06:20.069 and new studies, that if you yell at dairy cattle 00:06:20.069 --> 00:06:22.889 and slap them and hit them, this goes back to 00:06:22.889 --> 00:06:25.670 the old seed book studies, that they're going 00:06:25.670 --> 00:06:30.079 to give less milk. you know, that gentle handling's 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:33.040 important. That goes also back to the quote Hordes 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:36.439 Derryman, you know, when Hordes Derryman's magazine 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:40.379 started, that rough treatment lessens the flow. 00:06:43.620 --> 00:06:48.879 So, when you go into the genetics of it, and 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:51.660 we do a lot into the genetics, And you talked 00:06:51.660 --> 00:06:54.120 about the environment and the genetics. Have 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:57.839 you done much research or did you find that temperament, 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:00.540 like in beef cows or dairy cows, have you done 00:07:00.540 --> 00:07:03.040 much research yourself in that regard? Well, 00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:05.360 we did some of the original research done on 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:07.959 cattle temperament was done by my graduate student 00:07:07.959 --> 00:07:12.040 years ago. And now temperament testing for beef 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:16.079 cattle is commonplace. And the Angus cattle we 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:20.040 have today are much gentler. Angus cattle that 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:25.180 we had 25 years ago. They're a lot quieter and 00:07:25.180 --> 00:07:28.019 they startle. Now, on the other hand, you don't 00:07:28.019 --> 00:07:30.399 want to over -select for any trait because right 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:33.660 now I'm very concerned about congestive heart 00:07:33.660 --> 00:07:36.579 failure and problems with hoof abnormalities 00:07:36.579 --> 00:07:39.300 showing up in beef cattle that have just been 00:07:39.300 --> 00:07:41.540 selected for meat traits. I wrote a review article 00:07:41.540 --> 00:07:45.500 just last year that's titled Problems with Lameness 00:07:45.500 --> 00:07:48.339 and Congestive Heart Failure. have increased 00:07:48.339 --> 00:07:52.120 ingrained fed steers and heifers. And this is 00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:55.399 a problem that slowly has become worse. Now the 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:57.920 industry realizes that there's a problem with 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:01.519 this. In genetics, you over -select for any single 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:04.139 trait, you end up wrecking your animal. We've 00:08:04.139 --> 00:08:06.699 got a dairy cow now. She's given a ton of milk, 00:08:06.819 --> 00:08:09.759 but she's difficult to breed. You see, there's 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:12.620 all these trade -offs. We have to start looking 00:08:12.620 --> 00:08:16.240 at what's optimal, not maximum. Yes, it's really 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:18.019 good to have more productive dairy cows, and 00:08:18.019 --> 00:08:20.620 we can have more milk with less cows. That's 00:08:20.620 --> 00:08:23.259 definitely good, but there's a point where you 00:08:23.259 --> 00:08:26.699 take it too far, and that's already happened 00:08:26.699 --> 00:08:30.360 in beef cattle with the congestive heart failure 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:33.320 and hoof abnormalities, abnormalities such as 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:36.960 crossed claws, and that will show up in young 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:40.500 animals under six months of age. That's genetics. 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:45.690 That's not founder. No, no, true. And when you're 00:08:45.690 --> 00:08:48.549 watching, my understanding is when you're watching 00:08:48.549 --> 00:08:51.169 them, you're visually assessing them, obviously. 00:08:51.450 --> 00:08:53.669 And say in a beef cow, when you're visually assessing 00:08:53.669 --> 00:08:57.070 a lame cow or seeing these hoof issues, what 00:08:57.070 --> 00:08:58.889 type of things are you looking for when you watch 00:08:58.889 --> 00:09:01.129 them? Is it just how they... Well, we're scoring 00:09:01.129 --> 00:09:04.169 things. Now, dairy cows have a lot of lameness 00:09:04.169 --> 00:09:07.149 issues, and they're not caused by some different 00:09:07.149 --> 00:09:09.389 things. And three or four studies have shown 00:09:09.389 --> 00:09:11.970 that if you just ask a dairy producer... What 00:09:11.970 --> 00:09:14.750 percentage of your milking cows are laying, they 00:09:14.750 --> 00:09:17.950 will underestimate by half. They get so used 00:09:17.950 --> 00:09:19.870 to seeing the mildly laying cows, they don't 00:09:19.870 --> 00:09:21.889 see them. But you actually measure them with 00:09:21.889 --> 00:09:24.450 one of the lameness scoring cards. Zinpro is 00:09:24.450 --> 00:09:27.210 one of them, but also Welfare Quality and some 00:09:27.210 --> 00:09:29.830 of the other lameness scoring tools, there's 00:09:29.830 --> 00:09:32.789 videos that are out online for scoring lameness. 00:09:33.190 --> 00:09:36.049 And this is what I call bad becoming normal. 00:09:36.409 --> 00:09:39.830 They get so used to seeing it, they don't see 00:09:39.830 --> 00:09:43.159 it. And on the dairy cows, there's three studies 00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:45.539 that have shown that if you just say, well, what 00:09:45.539 --> 00:09:47.580 percentage of your cows are lame? Underestimate 00:09:47.580 --> 00:09:50.679 by half. And then when they measure it, they're 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:55.039 kind of shocked. Now, that is kind of one of 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:57.279 the things that you've obviously had an innate 00:09:57.279 --> 00:10:01.179 ability to see this, that maybe what most people 00:10:01.179 --> 00:10:07.659 don't see naturally or inertly, you have been 00:10:07.659 --> 00:10:10.850 able to do that. How do you find it to help or 00:10:10.850 --> 00:10:12.769 what do you find is an effective way to teach 00:10:12.769 --> 00:10:15.090 people how to see that? Because for most people, 00:10:15.210 --> 00:10:18.049 they don't catch that as obviously as you do. 00:10:18.350 --> 00:10:20.409 Well, there are some very good scoring tools 00:10:20.409 --> 00:10:23.330 available. You know, there are also good scoring 00:10:23.330 --> 00:10:26.110 tools available for body condition of dairy cows 00:10:26.110 --> 00:10:31.190 or swollen hocks. And that's caused by poor bedding. 00:10:31.350 --> 00:10:35.169 Maybe the freestyles or the cubicles are too 00:10:35.169 --> 00:10:37.110 small and they're ripping up their hocks on the 00:10:37.110 --> 00:10:39.750 concrete curb. There's some very nice scoring 00:10:39.750 --> 00:10:42.269 tools that people can use for body condition, 00:10:42.529 --> 00:10:47.049 dirty dairy cows, lameness, and they spill in 00:10:47.049 --> 00:10:49.990 the blood leg joints. And I think it's very important 00:10:49.990 --> 00:10:52.610 to actually measure those things. And then you 00:10:52.610 --> 00:10:54.669 can tell, am I getting better on these things 00:10:54.669 --> 00:10:57.909 or am I getting worse? And I have a book titled 00:10:57.909 --> 00:11:00.190 Improving Animal Welfare Practical Approach, 00:11:00.190 --> 00:11:03.769 and it's got references to scoring tools. I also 00:11:03.769 --> 00:11:08.690 have a free paper that's titled understanding 00:11:08.690 --> 00:11:12.110 the five domains, animal welfare framework, the 00:11:12.110 --> 00:11:14.929 food animal supply chain managers, and I have 00:11:14.929 --> 00:11:18.090 all kinds of references in there to the scoring 00:11:18.090 --> 00:11:20.970 tools with an emphasis on the ones that are free, 00:11:21.110 --> 00:11:23.909 unless the one that has the paywall is just so 00:11:23.909 --> 00:11:27.110 good I just have to reference it. But there's 00:11:27.110 --> 00:11:30.190 good scoring tools available that show visually 00:11:30.190 --> 00:11:33.450 the lameness. It's usually videos. The other 00:11:33.450 --> 00:11:36.850 ones are just pictures of different body condition 00:11:36.850 --> 00:11:39.480 scores. different amounts of problems on the 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:41.700 legs. Like, for example, you look at your worst 00:11:41.700 --> 00:11:46.240 leg, you're deaf normal, hair loss, swelling 00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:48.860 smaller than a baseball, swelling larger than 00:11:48.860 --> 00:11:54.220 a baseball. Just real simple, easy to use scoring 00:11:54.220 --> 00:11:58.139 tools. They're very pictorial and visual. Okay. 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:01.019 And we'll make sure to put links to that as well. 00:12:03.580 --> 00:12:04.860 Talking about that, you've talked a lot about 00:12:04.860 --> 00:12:06.799 the lameness, but you also mentioned before there 00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:10.200 about the congestive heart failure. Now, that's 00:12:10.200 --> 00:12:12.399 a beef cattle issue, not a dairy cattle issue. 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:14.299 No, very much so. Well, that's not showing up 00:12:14.299 --> 00:12:16.179 in the dairy cattle yet. But I did notice that. 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:19.320 It's been showing up in beef cattle, and the 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:23.980 research has shown that it's related to selecting 00:12:23.980 --> 00:12:26.620 for meat traits, large rib eyes. We're doing 00:12:26.620 --> 00:12:29.480 a study right now on looking at the marbling, 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:32.279 and then unfortunately electronic grading equipment 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:37.009 broke. And so we lost too much of the sample. 00:12:37.669 --> 00:12:40.450 But it's definitely the congestive heart failure 00:12:40.450 --> 00:12:47.250 in beef. I want to emphasize beef. We're going 00:12:47.250 --> 00:12:51.289 with heavier animals at a younger age. A real 00:12:51.289 --> 00:12:53.029 big heavy one used to be a three -year -old. 00:12:53.210 --> 00:12:58.090 Now it's a two -year -old. And it's very popular 00:12:58.090 --> 00:13:00.509 in the United States now in what's called beef 00:13:00.509 --> 00:13:05.190 on dairy. And you take Angus semen, and you breed 00:13:05.190 --> 00:13:07.970 it to dairy cows, and a lot of it's sexed semen, 00:13:08.009 --> 00:13:11.889 and you get steers out of it. And some of the 00:13:11.889 --> 00:13:14.370 feed yards that feed these cattle have traced 00:13:14.370 --> 00:13:17.370 congestive heart failure issues back to single 00:13:17.370 --> 00:13:19.889 Angus bulls, and they got rid of them. You know, 00:13:19.950 --> 00:13:23.179 it's definitely a beef issue. Yeah, and I noticed 00:13:23.179 --> 00:13:25.080 that because in your research you had here about 00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:27.440 the percentage, I think it's 4 % in the Angus 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:31.100 cows. That was severe congestive heart failure. 00:13:31.139 --> 00:13:35.559 You're ready to die. But milder levels of swelling. 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:37.700 And there's scorecards you can find very easily 00:13:37.700 --> 00:13:41.059 online. A normal beef heart should be kind of 00:13:41.059 --> 00:13:43.600 triangular. And then you have different degrees 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:50.620 of bloated soccer ball. the signs of swelling 00:13:50.620 --> 00:13:55.399 you can find in 30%, 30 % in some groups of cattle, 00:13:55.480 --> 00:13:57.539 but it's in some groups of cattle. Then you go 00:13:57.539 --> 00:13:59.320 somewhere else and they don't seem to have a 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:00.899 problem with it. Because I think it's related 00:14:00.899 --> 00:14:04.580 back to sires. And they see the beef on dairy 00:14:04.580 --> 00:14:07.759 people, they kept really, really, really good 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:10.679 records. So they knew which bull bred what's 00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:14.840 cow. Where your average cattle producer is using 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:18.240 natural breeding, obviously. I didn't know exactly 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:23.299 which bull bred which cow. Now, what if they 00:14:23.299 --> 00:14:27.399 were using semen, but natural breeding, you wouldn't 00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:29.840 know. Yeah, but how did you, like, what even 00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:31.820 first turned you on to all of this? Because you've 00:14:31.820 --> 00:14:34.519 gone quite deep, and it's quite impressive. Well, 00:14:34.620 --> 00:14:38.100 I worked very hard to improve the handling at 00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:41.399 the large slaughterhouses. Back in the 90s, I 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:44.460 designed a lot of equipment. I've designed all 00:14:44.460 --> 00:14:46.840 the beef handling. Again, this is beef cattle 00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:50.679 mostly, fed beef cattle, all the handling facilities 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:53.940 at most of the Cargill plants in the U .S. and 00:14:53.940 --> 00:14:56.759 Canada. And I got a lot of nice equipment out 00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:00.700 there. And then in 1999, I worked with McDonald's 00:15:00.700 --> 00:15:03.419 and other companies to inspect the slaughterhouses. 00:15:03.700 --> 00:15:07.080 And when you have big customers insisting on 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:09.820 standards, our plants got really, really good. 00:15:09.940 --> 00:15:12.870 They put away the hot shots. They really started 00:15:12.870 --> 00:15:15.649 to learn how to handle cattle. I thought everything 00:15:15.649 --> 00:15:20.549 was just wonderful. And about 15 years ago, we 00:15:20.549 --> 00:15:23.710 started getting the first hints of stuff like 00:15:23.710 --> 00:15:26.289 heart failure, foot problems. And there's some 00:15:26.289 --> 00:15:29.009 cattle that are really messed up. And you could 00:15:29.009 --> 00:15:32.190 have the very best slaughterhouse. But if you 00:15:32.190 --> 00:15:35.389 bring me a crippled heart patient, we're going 00:15:35.389 --> 00:15:36.970 to have a hard time handling it humanely. It's 00:15:36.970 --> 00:15:38.509 not going to want to walk. It's going to be weak. 00:15:38.929 --> 00:15:42.620 And that's why I've gotten into this. because 00:15:42.620 --> 00:15:45.159 it interferes with handling. We're going to have 00:15:45.159 --> 00:15:46.639 transport issues. We're going to have animals 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:49.940 down. Animals die shortly before they're shipped. 00:15:50.139 --> 00:15:53.500 Animals die in the yards at a plant. You get 00:15:53.500 --> 00:15:56.460 into the real severe cases, and there's been, 00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:00.240 in the research that I have reviewed, oh, there's 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:01.820 some groups of cattle that are just terrible. 00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:06.639 Again, this is beef cattle, or it's beef on dairy. 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:11.990 So it's Holstein with an Angus sire. Yeah, but 00:16:11.990 --> 00:16:14.970 especially over the last four or five years, 00:16:15.049 --> 00:16:18.129 beef on dairy has become very, very popular in 00:16:18.129 --> 00:16:21.070 the U .S. Very popular. And they make really 00:16:21.070 --> 00:16:25.669 nice steers. Yeah. Which is interesting because 00:16:25.669 --> 00:16:28.149 one of the things, and I was looking through 00:16:28.149 --> 00:16:33.470 your research about this, and it comes up with 00:16:33.470 --> 00:16:38.529 the Quizletch, or torture breeding. Well, that 00:16:38.529 --> 00:16:41.889 torture breeding thing, That was suggested by 00:16:41.889 --> 00:16:45.129 one of the reviewers. I had to send my paper 00:16:45.129 --> 00:16:48.230 in for review, and they wanted me to add torture 00:16:48.230 --> 00:16:50.389 breeding. I did not originally put that in the 00:16:50.389 --> 00:16:52.990 paper, but the reviewer brought it up, and that's 00:16:52.990 --> 00:16:56.610 what they call breeding where bad things start 00:16:56.610 --> 00:16:59.549 to happen, and it was also aimed at dogs. I'm 00:16:59.549 --> 00:17:01.889 going to be equally critical of bulldogs that 00:17:01.889 --> 00:17:04.549 can't breathe, pugs that can't breathe, because 00:17:04.549 --> 00:17:07.789 they're too flat. A year ago, I was at a vet 00:17:07.789 --> 00:17:11.779 clinic. I saw a hideous x -ray. of the leg of 00:17:11.779 --> 00:17:19.400 a dwarf naked cat with a bent, deformed leg bone, 00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:23.460 and the joints break on these cats. I mean, why 00:17:23.460 --> 00:17:25.559 are we breeding cats with joints that come apart? 00:17:26.539 --> 00:17:28.480 I have problems with this. I'm going to be very 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:31.859 critical of the pets, too. And the reviewer suggested 00:17:31.859 --> 00:17:34.500 that I put the torture breeding in there, and 00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:39.650 that's a European term. No, that's interesting, 00:17:39.750 --> 00:17:42.410 though, because when you parallel that to dairy 00:17:42.410 --> 00:17:46.049 cattle, you know, we've bred so heavily for production 00:17:46.049 --> 00:17:48.970 and components and lesser so for type, but we 00:17:48.970 --> 00:17:52.069 haven't really paid as much attention until recently 00:17:52.069 --> 00:17:55.490 for things like fertility and temperament and 00:17:55.490 --> 00:17:59.369 health. And, you know, it's slowly coming around, 00:17:59.470 --> 00:18:01.369 but I think things like this, you know, things 00:18:01.369 --> 00:18:03.890 that maybe, especially to yourself. You kind 00:18:03.890 --> 00:18:06.470 of saw innately we're slowly coming around to 00:18:06.470 --> 00:18:08.049 a breeding, but seeing the side effects, and 00:18:08.049 --> 00:18:10.549 you mentioned it earlier, that, you know, you 00:18:10.549 --> 00:18:14.190 focus on one. See, what happens is these problems 00:18:14.190 --> 00:18:17.069 creep up slowly. You see, the congestive heart 00:18:17.069 --> 00:18:20.329 failure used to be confined to very high altitudes. 00:18:20.990 --> 00:18:22.970 I'm sorry, I'm going to have to use English measurements, 00:18:23.150 --> 00:18:26.630 but, you know, 12 ,000 feet, you know, really 00:18:26.630 --> 00:18:29.890 high elevations. Where I'm at right now, we're 00:18:29.890 --> 00:18:33.089 at 5 ,000. Now it's showing up in places that 00:18:33.089 --> 00:18:35.410 are 2 ,000, you know, much, much lower altitudes. 00:18:35.710 --> 00:18:39.809 And this is something that slowly got worse. 00:18:39.869 --> 00:18:42.769 I call that bad becoming normal. And you don't 00:18:42.769 --> 00:18:46.970 see it until it gets really bad. I mean, now 00:18:46.970 --> 00:18:49.869 the industry recognizes that there's a problem. 00:18:50.190 --> 00:18:52.569 And there's a test you can do called a PAP test. 00:18:52.730 --> 00:18:55.069 We have a veterinarian here named Dr. Tim Holt 00:18:55.069 --> 00:19:01.670 that tests arterial pressure. and breeding bulls 00:19:01.670 --> 00:19:07.890 are good on that trade. But I think we have to 00:19:07.890 --> 00:19:09.910 start looking at what's optimal. I went to a 00:19:09.910 --> 00:19:12.569 very interesting crop seminar. What am I doing 00:19:12.569 --> 00:19:14.950 at the crop seminar? Well, right around the first 00:19:14.950 --> 00:19:16.930 of the year, I don't have any travel, so I went 00:19:16.930 --> 00:19:20.289 to a field day about crops. And this guy that's 00:19:20.289 --> 00:19:22.750 a researcher on crops said, the biggest, tallest 00:19:22.750 --> 00:19:25.490 corn is not necessarily the best because you 00:19:25.490 --> 00:19:27.829 have to put too many inputs into it. What is? 00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:31.299 Optimal, not maximum. And he said this is a very, 00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:35.180 very hard concept to get people to understand. 00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:37.680 And I understand exactly what he's talking about. 00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:41.660 We have to start looking at optimal milk production 00:19:41.660 --> 00:19:45.000 balanced against things like fertility and mastitis 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:49.859 and other important things. See, we tend to get 00:19:49.859 --> 00:19:52.880 into single trait selection, blindly following 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:55.720 the numbers. Meanwhile, we're breeding a four 00:19:55.720 --> 00:19:58.410 -month -old heifer. It's got crossed toenails. 00:19:58.569 --> 00:20:03.190 Yeah. And that's a genetic defect. Yeah. Now, 00:20:03.309 --> 00:20:07.730 obviously throughout your career, you've battled 00:20:07.730 --> 00:20:10.789 this in a sense of trying to educate people to 00:20:10.789 --> 00:20:13.089 look at things differently. And obviously now 00:20:13.089 --> 00:20:17.349 it's talking more about the implications and 00:20:17.349 --> 00:20:20.119 the economic implications as well. How do you 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:22.599 find dealing with producers when you try to help 00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:25.000 educate them on these things? Like what reaction 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:26.759 do you typically get? Some producers really have 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.660 a good, a really good reaction. And they've backed 00:20:30.660 --> 00:20:32.940 off on some of the single trait breeding. Because 00:20:32.940 --> 00:20:35.900 in some places, where it's gotten so extreme, 00:20:36.220 --> 00:20:38.720 they're using a dairy cow for only two years 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:41.359 of lactation. Yeah. Doesn't make much sense. 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:43.400 It takes you two years to turn a calf into a 00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:46.579 cow. Yeah. And they only use it for two years. 00:20:46.839 --> 00:20:49.470 There's some people. realizing that that's kind 00:20:49.470 --> 00:20:52.109 of folly and you probably want to get four years 00:20:52.109 --> 00:20:54.829 out of her before you get rid of her. And I think 00:20:54.829 --> 00:20:56.029 some of the people don't even know where all 00:20:56.029 --> 00:20:59.390 the costs are at by producing, turning that baby 00:20:59.390 --> 00:21:02.349 calf into a milking cow, which takes two years. 00:21:04.730 --> 00:21:06.809 Well, and that's, and especially if you look 00:21:06.809 --> 00:21:12.190 at over things like lately, um, the cost of replacements, 00:21:12.230 --> 00:21:16.049 the cost of raising, It's so expensive. Well, 00:21:16.069 --> 00:21:19.069 that's just it. It costs a lot of money to raise 00:21:19.069 --> 00:21:22.970 that heifer into account. It takes you two years 00:21:22.970 --> 00:21:29.150 from the time that the baby calf is born. And 00:21:29.150 --> 00:21:34.910 you see people just get single -minded just looking 00:21:34.910 --> 00:21:37.130 at the traits. Like, why have we got a problem 00:21:37.130 --> 00:21:39.390 with breeding a bulldog with such a flat face 00:21:39.390 --> 00:21:42.210 it can't breed? Well, they keep breeding the 00:21:42.210 --> 00:21:45.089 breed standard. Short nose. Well, now you've 00:21:45.089 --> 00:21:47.650 got the point with this. No nose. And you can 00:21:47.650 --> 00:21:50.950 have a deformed mouth. And then when it gets 00:21:50.950 --> 00:21:55.009 bigger, it has trouble eating. Yeah. And that's 00:21:55.009 --> 00:21:56.349 what, you know, I would call, that would fit 00:21:56.349 --> 00:21:58.650 in with this European definition of torture breeding. 00:21:58.849 --> 00:22:00.849 Yeah. Which is interesting because I was doing 00:22:00.849 --> 00:22:02.509 some research here and I was seeing that, like, 00:22:02.529 --> 00:22:06.049 carcass weights in beef cattle have gone up significantly. 00:22:06.670 --> 00:22:09.430 Oh, going up and up and up. And, but what's happening 00:22:09.430 --> 00:22:13.720 now, it's interesting, is... is that they're 00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:16.279 realizing, well, nobody wants a ribeye that covers 00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:19.619 an entire plate. And we just have a new plant 00:22:19.619 --> 00:22:21.759 that's being built and that's going to be selling 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:24.279 probably over half its production to one of our 00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:26.640 major retailers. And they don't want this huge 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:29.359 cattle. They want a ribeye and they want stakes 00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:32.460 that, you know, fit right on the plate. But we 00:22:32.460 --> 00:22:38.880 got into this tremendous, gigantic cattle. And 00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:41.240 now there's some people starting to back off 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:44.930 on this a little bit. And in dairy, it's been 00:22:44.930 --> 00:22:47.009 quite the push, I would say, in the last two 00:22:47.009 --> 00:22:49.329 or three years that the size, overall height, 00:22:49.450 --> 00:22:52.190 more than anything of cows, has gotten too big 00:22:52.190 --> 00:22:54.029 from many perspectives. Well, the other problem 00:22:54.029 --> 00:22:57.049 we've got is our trucks. One of the problems 00:22:57.049 --> 00:23:01.130 we've got here is over in Europe, or lorry, as 00:23:01.130 --> 00:23:05.069 you call it in Europe, your lorries can go another 00:23:05.069 --> 00:23:09.789 30 centimeters, 40 centimeters taller than our 00:23:09.789 --> 00:23:14.180 trucks. The whole eastern United States, we had 00:23:14.180 --> 00:23:16.940 a little problem with low railroad bridges. And 00:23:16.940 --> 00:23:21.359 so what's happening now with some of these very 00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:24.619 tall animals, whether they're dairy cows or they're 00:23:24.619 --> 00:23:27.240 beef cattle, is when they come out of the bottom 00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:30.099 compartment of these trucks, they're bashing 00:23:30.099 --> 00:23:32.579 their backs on the upper deck as they unload 00:23:32.579 --> 00:23:37.359 and bruised all over the backs. And, you know, 00:23:37.420 --> 00:23:39.180 what we need to be doing is breed an animal that 00:23:39.180 --> 00:23:41.859 will fit in the trucks. We are stuck. with our 00:23:41.859 --> 00:23:45.640 lower height limitations in the U .S. compared 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:51.000 to Europe and Australia. And also, some of the 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:55.180 retailers don't want a ribeye that covers the 00:23:55.180 --> 00:23:58.180 entire plate. It was interesting, but I've been 00:23:58.180 --> 00:24:01.119 in the industry actually 50 years now. And when 00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:05.559 I first started back in the 70s, I can remember 00:24:05.559 --> 00:24:08.380 when the European continental cattle, the Chianinas, 00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:11.940 The Charolais and some of these really big cattle 00:24:11.940 --> 00:24:14.500 came into the U .S., and they were going to just 00:24:14.500 --> 00:24:17.000 save the industry. Well, the problem we've got 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:20.519 on our arid rangeland, dry arid rangeland, is 00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:23.359 you can't feed a gigantic cow. You're going to 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:26.160 go broke in the wintertime feeding it hay, and 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:28.039 people were saying, we don't want a ribeye that 00:24:28.039 --> 00:24:31.859 fills up the plate. You see, now we've got gigantic, 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:35.339 and then one of our major retailers is going, 00:24:35.420 --> 00:24:40.029 no, we don't want these giants. Let's back off 00:24:40.029 --> 00:24:42.309 a little more moderate size for beef animals. 00:24:44.029 --> 00:24:46.849 Yeah, which is interesting. And you talk about 00:24:46.849 --> 00:24:49.309 like the transportation, but as you were talking 00:24:49.309 --> 00:24:50.630 about it, and I think about some of the other 00:24:50.630 --> 00:24:52.609 stuff is, and I don't know if you, how much you've 00:24:52.609 --> 00:24:54.369 done or how much you've looked at, but like the 00:24:54.369 --> 00:24:58.490 robotic milking in dairy cattle and kind of the, 00:24:58.630 --> 00:25:02.990 not limitations, but there are challenges because 00:25:02.990 --> 00:25:05.109 they are in a more confined space and everything. 00:25:05.789 --> 00:25:07.950 Have you ever, have you done much work in looking 00:25:07.950 --> 00:25:10.670 in that? I haven't done any work, but I've read 00:25:10.670 --> 00:25:12.670 a lot of work. And in my book, Livestock, Handling, 00:25:12.690 --> 00:25:14.630 and Transport, I had some people that were experts 00:25:14.630 --> 00:25:18.529 in that do a chapter on it. And I've talked to 00:25:18.529 --> 00:25:21.009 people that have gone to robots. And one of the 00:25:21.009 --> 00:25:25.309 advantages for smaller dairy is it gets rid of 00:25:25.309 --> 00:25:28.930 labor, some labor issues. It's really hard in 00:25:28.930 --> 00:25:32.029 the U .S. sometimes to get labor for milking. 00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:36.299 It gives a dairyman a more flexible schedule. 00:25:36.619 --> 00:25:38.380 Now you've got to make sure you don't put too 00:25:38.380 --> 00:25:41.559 many cows on a single unit. You take the time 00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:44.900 to train the heifers. It's not automatic management. 00:25:45.500 --> 00:25:48.799 No, no. I cannot emphasize enough. And these 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:52.720 machines require a lot of maintenance. And people 00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:55.519 will ask me, well, which should I buy? I said, 00:25:55.539 --> 00:25:58.059 you buy the one that has the best dealer in your 00:25:58.059 --> 00:26:01.869 area for service. that's the brand that you need 00:26:01.869 --> 00:26:03.630 to buy, and that's going to vary depending upon 00:26:03.630 --> 00:26:07.049 where you live. Yeah. I just, I always wonder, 00:26:07.109 --> 00:26:08.890 because you talked about, and I know some of 00:26:08.890 --> 00:26:10.890 the things, like you talked about cows moving 00:26:10.890 --> 00:26:13.029 into an uncomfortable space, because in that, 00:26:13.049 --> 00:26:14.890 they're actually moving into quite a cramp, but 00:26:14.890 --> 00:26:16.450 they're also getting fed and other things, so 00:26:16.450 --> 00:26:17.650 there is an intense... Well, they're getting 00:26:17.650 --> 00:26:21.569 fed grain, which is like cow candy. Yeah. And 00:26:21.569 --> 00:26:24.130 I think one of the mistakes we made in our regular 00:26:24.130 --> 00:26:27.269 dairies, when I first started in the 70s, all 00:26:27.269 --> 00:26:30.200 of the dairies... fed grain in the parlor or 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:33.720 in the milking facility. And then that got phased 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:39.119 out. And it might have been a mistake. Now we're 00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:46.700 seeing how they reacted grain in the robot. I 00:26:46.700 --> 00:26:49.799 remember when every dairy fed in the parlor. 00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:55.420 All of them did in the 70s. Yeah, which makes 00:26:55.420 --> 00:26:56.960 me think, and you talk about, you use the term 00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:00.720 quite a bit, the bad becoming normal. Bad becoming 00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:03.900 normal happens when something slowly gets worse. 00:27:04.019 --> 00:27:06.059 Now, there's lameness and dairy cattle is one 00:27:06.059 --> 00:27:08.380 of those things. The congestive heart failure 00:27:08.380 --> 00:27:10.720 is a thing of bad becoming normal. You can also 00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:13.880 get problems with handling, where, okay, you 00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:16.859 take your employees out, do a big workshop on 00:27:16.859 --> 00:27:19.380 low -stress handling, and then if you don't measure 00:27:19.380 --> 00:27:22.019 your handling, yelling and screaming and hitting 00:27:22.019 --> 00:27:27.450 and tail -twisting, can come back slowly. And 00:27:27.450 --> 00:27:30.190 the handling can deteriorate slowly and people 00:27:30.190 --> 00:27:33.849 don't realize it. So I've developed some systems 00:27:33.849 --> 00:27:35.950 for measuring handling because you manage what 00:27:35.950 --> 00:27:39.569 you measure. And there are some dairies where 00:27:39.569 --> 00:27:41.829 a high percentage of the cows have busted tails. 00:27:42.750 --> 00:27:48.009 That's totally unacceptable. It's interesting 00:27:48.009 --> 00:27:51.890 because every time you talk about trying to change 00:27:51.890 --> 00:27:56.480 perception, It's either systems or scorecards. 00:27:56.539 --> 00:27:59.839 You have very kind of clear thought processes 00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:03.619 in helping people kind of understand the problem. 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:06.940 Is that just your way you like working that way, 00:28:06.980 --> 00:28:08.920 or what is brought out of that? Well, a lot of 00:28:08.920 --> 00:28:10.619 people like working that way. I have trained 00:28:10.619 --> 00:28:16.720 almost 1 ,000 auditors to audit handling at slaughterhouses, 00:28:16.900 --> 00:28:19.180 to audit on farms. We have a day -and -a -half 00:28:19.180 --> 00:28:25.099 or two -day workshop. I said, get the body condition 00:28:25.099 --> 00:28:29.140 scoring chart on your phone. And as you walk 00:28:29.140 --> 00:28:31.660 down through the cows, you can pick off the skinny 00:28:31.660 --> 00:28:35.980 ones, the ones that are noncompliant. And you 00:28:35.980 --> 00:28:38.880 have your scorecard right there on your phone 00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:42.619 and look at it. And, okay, is she too skinny? 00:28:43.640 --> 00:28:45.980 You can just pick off the noncompliant ones. 00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:48.859 You can pick off the ones that have got really 00:28:48.859 --> 00:28:50.839 bad swollen hocks. And there's some good scoring 00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:54.279 tools. European Animal Welfare Quality has also 00:28:54.279 --> 00:28:58.240 got some nice scoring tools. But I want that 00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:03.000 scoring tool there because if you put the scorecard 00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:06.279 away, then your eye drifts. We found that's meat 00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:10.019 grading. Now a lot of our meat grading is done 00:29:10.019 --> 00:29:15.279 electronically, but your eye will drift. I'm 00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:17.440 a big fan of having that scorecard right there 00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:20.140 on your phone. So as you walk through them, you're 00:29:20.140 --> 00:29:24.240 looking at the scorecard. And then your eye doesn't 00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:27.700 drift. It's interesting. There's been a lot of 00:29:27.700 --> 00:29:30.279 studies on what's called inter -observer reliability. 00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:35.859 There's been a lot of studies on that. And you've 00:29:35.859 --> 00:29:37.480 got to have things that are very simple, not 00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:42.160 too many categories. Five is about the most categories. 00:29:42.759 --> 00:29:44.920 We have a body condition score for beef that's 00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:48.599 nine categories. I just hate it. Because you 00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:51.690 just can't get... uh, interverbal liability. 00:29:53.470 --> 00:29:56.029 You need at least four categories because you'd 00:29:56.029 --> 00:29:58.809 have normal two degrees of abnormality and then 00:29:58.809 --> 00:30:03.490 really atrocious. Yeah, but I'm a fan of this. 00:30:03.529 --> 00:30:05.750 It works. And there's a lot of research to back 00:30:05.750 --> 00:30:08.210 it up. And I have found that training people 00:30:08.210 --> 00:30:11.930 to do this, if it's not simple, they cannot do 00:30:11.930 --> 00:30:16.450 it. I have a two day workshop to train them in. 00:30:16.839 --> 00:30:19.000 and then two or three practice audits with an 00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:21.980 experienced auditor. That's the reality of training 00:30:21.980 --> 00:30:27.799 commercial auditors. Now, you mentioned about 00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:30.099 the commercial auditors, but then you also mentioned 00:30:30.099 --> 00:30:35.299 about some of it being automated or... Yes, there 00:30:35.299 --> 00:30:38.420 is some research now on AI. In fact, my former 00:30:38.420 --> 00:30:41.480 student, Lily Calloway Edwards, or Edwards Calloway, 00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:45.380 was approached by a company that does AI. that 00:30:45.380 --> 00:30:47.380 was measuring and handling at the slaughterhouse. 00:30:47.619 --> 00:30:49.740 And we're looking at things like use of electric 00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:54.539 prods, falling, stocking density, stunning efficacy. 00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:59.619 And they found in comparing the AI score with 00:30:59.619 --> 00:31:03.299 skilled people going back and reviewing the videos 00:31:03.299 --> 00:31:07.960 that for electric prod use, stocking density 00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:10.859 in the wearage pens, falling down during handling, 00:31:10.940 --> 00:31:15.150 and stunning, the AI was accurate. It did not 00:31:15.150 --> 00:31:18.190 work for determining whether they'd made the 00:31:18.190 --> 00:31:20.369 cattle unconscious. That's just a little more 00:31:20.369 --> 00:31:23.490 complicated. But on the other hand, I don't think 00:31:23.490 --> 00:31:27.410 you should totally just use the AI program. I've 00:31:27.410 --> 00:31:29.190 always got to go back and calibrate it with some 00:31:29.190 --> 00:31:32.109 real people. But I can see it could be a really 00:31:32.109 --> 00:31:37.150 useful tool. The other thing, not automatic management. 00:31:37.170 --> 00:31:40.130 I find in all the years I've been in the industry, 00:31:40.269 --> 00:31:43.220 people want the thing. The magic new thing, the 00:31:43.220 --> 00:31:47.680 robotic milker, the rotary parlor, the AI program, 00:31:47.980 --> 00:31:51.779 they want it more than the management. And when 00:31:51.779 --> 00:31:54.900 I first started, I thought I could build self 00:31:54.900 --> 00:31:59.579 -managing cattle handling facilities. No, no 00:31:59.579 --> 00:32:02.339 way. I can build good cattle handling facilities, 00:32:02.619 --> 00:32:06.099 but they're not self -managed. That's where top 00:32:06.099 --> 00:32:08.559 management has to decide they're going to do 00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:11.549 something about lameness. Yeah, yeah. Or improve 00:32:11.549 --> 00:32:17.690 their handling of their animals. So, when you 00:32:17.690 --> 00:32:20.009 go in, and I know it's what you said, is there 00:32:20.009 --> 00:32:23.769 common gaps you're finding that people kind of 00:32:23.769 --> 00:32:25.349 miss? Like, is there something that you think, 00:32:25.369 --> 00:32:27.930 hey, this is a common, even the machines kind 00:32:27.930 --> 00:32:31.210 of, they're missing this aspect. What kind are 00:32:31.210 --> 00:32:33.569 the gaps that you see people usually missing? 00:32:33.930 --> 00:32:36.410 Well, the problem with the insensibility is that 00:32:36.410 --> 00:32:38.910 you have to, a lot of the signs are more subtle. 00:32:39.579 --> 00:32:42.400 You either put the electric part on the cattle 00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:44.819 or you didn't. Fell, it didn't fall. It can easily 00:32:44.819 --> 00:32:48.299 measure the stocking density. It shot the stunner 00:32:48.299 --> 00:32:51.240 in the correct position or it didn't. AI program 00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:56.819 can easily do that. But on some other things, 00:32:56.900 --> 00:32:59.519 it's less clear. We had an argument going on 00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:02.579 in a plant, in a slaughterhouse. When does tapping 00:33:02.579 --> 00:33:05.259 an animal with a driving aid become beating an 00:33:05.259 --> 00:33:08.259 animal? Like our rules for humane slaughter do 00:33:08.259 --> 00:33:10.660 not allow beating. So when does tapping become 00:33:10.660 --> 00:33:14.180 beating? So I made a video called Proper Use 00:33:14.180 --> 00:33:17.559 of Livestock Driving Tools where I take a livestock 00:33:17.559 --> 00:33:21.619 driving tool and I hit an empty box. A taped 00:33:21.619 --> 00:33:24.619 up empty box. And when it starts to bend and 00:33:24.619 --> 00:33:29.799 break, tapping has become beating. I wanted to 00:33:29.799 --> 00:33:34.279 have something more objective because our USDA 00:33:34.279 --> 00:33:36.819 can shut a plant down for beating up animals. 00:33:37.470 --> 00:33:39.349 And there was a giant fight that happened at 00:33:39.349 --> 00:33:41.990 a plant. Oh, we just tapped the animal with the 00:33:41.990 --> 00:33:45.329 electric, with the paddle. We didn't beat it. 00:33:45.529 --> 00:33:48.569 And so I made my video where I beat the box and 00:33:48.569 --> 00:33:51.650 when it starts to break, and it's a standard 00:33:51.650 --> 00:33:53.910 box, like it's something that Amazon might use. 00:33:54.430 --> 00:33:58.730 And we used a square box. That was in English 00:33:58.730 --> 00:34:01.029 measurements. It was just over a foot by a foot 00:34:01.029 --> 00:34:04.289 by a foot. That would be 30 centimeters by 30 00:34:04.289 --> 00:34:08.079 centimeters by 30 centimeters. taped the box 00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:11.800 up and started whacking it with the paddle because 00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:15.320 I wanted to have something more objective as 00:34:15.320 --> 00:34:21.039 to when tapping became beating. It's interesting 00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:23.139 because, and I think there's a research I think 00:34:23.139 --> 00:34:28.280 that one of your undergrads did or students did, 00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:32.920 that the gentle handling practices with dairy 00:34:32.920 --> 00:34:35.880 cows And it showed that anywhere from 4 % to 00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:39.480 13 % increase in production. Oh, yes. I mean, 00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:42.320 stockmanship matters. There's a lot of research 00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:44.860 on this. And there's old research on this, too. 00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:48.480 Old research, some of it is older than me, like 00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:51.480 the Seabrook papers and stuff that Jack Albright 00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:56.599 did at Purdue. It matters. But what happens to 00:34:56.599 --> 00:34:58.360 some of the handling, let's say yelling and screaming 00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:01.679 and hitting, for example, is if you don't measure 00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:05.199 it, It gradually gets worse, and people don't 00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:07.860 realize it. I call it bad becoming normal. Yeah. 00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:10.719 It gradually gets worse, and they don't realize 00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:14.000 it until it gets really bad. Yeah, and I guess, 00:35:14.019 --> 00:35:16.800 so what type of things would you say to people, 00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:19.880 like, I guess it's mainly just observation, but, 00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:22.719 you know, it becomes normal, but how do we stop 00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:25.179 it from becoming normal? Well, top management 00:35:25.179 --> 00:35:26.800 has to decide they're going to stop it. One thing 00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:29.599 I have learned is top management, like a dairy 00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:33.539 owner, for example, or if, let's say, a company 00:35:33.539 --> 00:35:37.059 has more than one dairy, that local manager has 00:35:37.059 --> 00:35:39.679 to get behind, we are going to change the way 00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:42.900 we handle our animals. And if top management 00:35:42.900 --> 00:35:46.139 doesn't get totally behind it, it doesn't happen. 00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:50.320 This is something I've learned in all the work 00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:52.159 I've done. Top management has to get behind it. 00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:55.460 And in our slaughterhouse work, we found that 00:35:55.460 --> 00:36:00.340 some plant managers ended up getting fired because 00:36:00.340 --> 00:36:02.050 it wouldn't, change their handling, and then 00:36:02.050 --> 00:36:04.809 when we got a new manager, the plant got good 00:36:04.809 --> 00:36:08.349 almost like overnight. Top management has to 00:36:08.349 --> 00:36:12.590 say, we are going to handle animals right. I 00:36:12.590 --> 00:36:20.570 cannot emphasize how important that is. Do you 00:36:20.570 --> 00:36:23.789 have examples of where you've worked with dairy 00:36:23.789 --> 00:36:28.369 farms? No, the biggest majority of my work has 00:36:28.369 --> 00:36:31.639 been beef. But I have worked with plants that 00:36:31.639 --> 00:36:34.780 process dairy cows, and one of the big problems 00:36:34.780 --> 00:36:37.739 is the cow coming in in really bad condition, 00:36:37.980 --> 00:36:41.480 what they call timely marketing. Way too many 00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:44.059 cows are entering the plant with full udders, 00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:46.260 just dripping milk, thinking they're going to 00:36:46.260 --> 00:36:48.159 get milked when they go to a slaughterhouse. 00:36:48.239 --> 00:36:51.639 It's the most pathetic thing you ever saw. No, 00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:55.559 the cow needs to be sold before she gets completely 00:36:55.559 --> 00:36:58.679 debilitated. There's still way too many of them 00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:00.900 coming in bad condition. And that's some of the 00:37:00.900 --> 00:37:06.739 latest research where auditors went out and they 00:37:06.739 --> 00:37:10.119 looked at all the big cow slaughter plants in 00:37:10.119 --> 00:37:13.619 the U .S. There's still way too many of them 00:37:13.619 --> 00:37:16.719 coming in, way too skinny, lame, not really fit 00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:20.280 for transport. That's still an issue. And there's 00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:24.480 other dairies that do a really good job. It's 00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:27.280 interesting because, and I'll segue a little 00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:29.619 bit here, but, you know, we talked about the 00:37:29.619 --> 00:37:32.000 beef on dairy trend coming, but, like, I don't 00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:35.099 think dairy farmers have never had to think as 00:37:35.099 --> 00:37:38.380 a beef producer before. That's correct, that 00:37:38.380 --> 00:37:41.139 the cow has a second career as beef. Yeah, but 00:37:41.139 --> 00:37:43.099 now, obviously, especially with even just the 00:37:43.099 --> 00:37:46.400 beef on dairy and the young calves, it's become 00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:50.500 a huge aspect. Yeah, it's become absolutely huge 00:37:50.500 --> 00:37:52.420 in the last five years. Financially rewarding. 00:37:53.179 --> 00:37:56.119 But what would you say to a dairy farmer who 00:37:56.119 --> 00:37:58.119 is getting into that and is now having to think 00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:00.820 about things like, hey, when I'm sending my animal 00:38:00.820 --> 00:38:03.179 to slaughter or I'm doing this, I really should 00:38:03.179 --> 00:38:05.780 consider X, Y, and Z, because maybe they've never 00:38:05.780 --> 00:38:08.340 ever really had to think about that before. Well, 00:38:08.380 --> 00:38:09.820 it's just sort of like put it on the truck and 00:38:09.820 --> 00:38:12.940 he just disappears. Yeah, but it's different 00:38:12.940 --> 00:38:15.599 now, or there's more to it than that. Well, you 00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:18.099 see now that the beef on dairy animals is a young 00:38:18.099 --> 00:38:21.860 animal. Mm -hmm. They, you know, get raised. 00:38:22.570 --> 00:38:28.050 specifically for beef. And now that those bull 00:38:28.050 --> 00:38:31.050 calves that used to just be kind of a waste byproduct 00:38:31.050 --> 00:38:33.849 now worth something. And then they figure out 00:38:33.849 --> 00:38:36.449 how many replacement heifers they need and use 00:38:36.449 --> 00:38:42.570 sex semen to get mostly bull calves. In the U 00:38:42.570 --> 00:38:44.489 .S. we make steers out of them. We don't raise 00:38:44.489 --> 00:38:47.469 them intact here. I know in some places in Europe 00:38:47.469 --> 00:38:49.969 they raise them intact. And if you do that... 00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:53.900 You need to keep them with their pen mate group 00:38:53.900 --> 00:38:56.880 or they'll fight and have B quality issues. Yeah. 00:38:56.980 --> 00:38:58.980 Yeah, you raise intact bulls, they've got to 00:38:58.980 --> 00:39:04.199 stay with their pen mate groups. So, and I know 00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:07.460 you're working on, I think it's called the FSNSCA 00:39:07.460 --> 00:39:10.260 Temple Grandin Responsible Care Program, as well 00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:13.619 as Nolan Ryan B Focus Audits. Yeah, I worked 00:39:13.619 --> 00:39:16.380 with a bunch of different places. I worked with 00:39:16.380 --> 00:39:19.980 McDonald's. And that's mainly been on the slaughterhouse 00:39:19.980 --> 00:39:22.340 inspections. And one of the things we look at 00:39:22.340 --> 00:39:25.260 is also the condition of the animal coming in. 00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:28.679 And there's some dairy cows coming in in awful 00:39:28.679 --> 00:39:32.559 condition. And there's other dairies that send 00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:35.019 them in when they're still fit for travel. Yeah, 00:39:35.059 --> 00:39:37.260 and you mentioned earlier about needing to be 00:39:37.260 --> 00:39:38.900 milked or should have been milked before they 00:39:38.900 --> 00:39:40.539 were seen. Oh, it's disgusting. The amount of 00:39:40.539 --> 00:39:42.900 cattle, oh, over half of them are coming in with 00:39:42.900 --> 00:39:47.610 full udders. Are there other trends or other 00:39:47.610 --> 00:39:49.210 things you were finding with the audits when 00:39:49.210 --> 00:39:51.030 dairy cattle were coming in? Were there other 00:39:51.030 --> 00:39:53.289 problems or mainly around the milk? For auditors, 00:39:53.309 --> 00:39:55.409 it's a big problem. And the other thing that's 00:39:55.409 --> 00:39:57.730 a big problem is some of them have just got too 00:39:57.730 --> 00:40:01.710 debilitated. Now, in the U .S., because of bovine 00:40:01.710 --> 00:40:04.869 spongiform, you know, the mad cow disease, a 00:40:04.869 --> 00:40:08.389 downed animal that cannot walk, we cannot slaughter 00:40:08.389 --> 00:40:10.949 that. That has to be euthanized in the laryng 00:40:10.949 --> 00:40:15.480 and sent to rendering. And that was something 00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:20.159 that started after the mad cow disease. If they 00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:23.400 can't walk up the raceway to the stunner, they 00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:27.920 go in a rubbish window. So that will help some. 00:40:28.579 --> 00:40:30.880 But what happens is a lot of people just drop 00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:33.780 them off at the auction, and they disappear. 00:40:35.579 --> 00:40:37.659 I don't think about what's happening further 00:40:37.659 --> 00:40:39.679 on down the line. And the other problem you've 00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:42.539 got with full udders is the milk contaminates 00:40:42.539 --> 00:40:44.840 the meat. And then they got to trim that meat 00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:54.179 off. Yeah. Yeah. Curiosity. Like, like I say, 00:40:54.219 --> 00:40:56.059 still putting it out as like the beef quality 00:40:56.059 --> 00:40:59.119 difference from a dairy, beef on dairy calf versus 00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:02.260 a beef calf. But I think they've already started 00:41:02.260 --> 00:41:05.619 putting out. Well, the beef on dairy, they marble 00:41:05.619 --> 00:41:10.820 really well. They make some very nice beef. Yeah. 00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:19.139 It's now that bull calf that used to be worthless 00:41:19.139 --> 00:41:22.000 and treated badly. Yeah. It's now worth something 00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:26.880 if it's bred to an Angus bull. Yeah. You know, 00:41:26.920 --> 00:41:33.320 fired by an Angus bull. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, 00:41:33.420 --> 00:41:34.800 I was just thinking about it because I was going 00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:40.280 through and it's changing. I think it's maybe 00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:42.099 a bigger impact on the dairy business than it 00:41:42.099 --> 00:41:44.829 is the beef industry as far as. market share, 00:41:44.889 --> 00:41:47.230 but it's changed the economics of dairy farming 00:41:47.230 --> 00:41:49.929 quite heavily. Oh yeah, absolutely. I think it's 00:41:49.929 --> 00:41:52.710 really a good thing. But we now have a shortage 00:41:52.710 --> 00:41:56.489 of fresh dairy cows because everyone spreads 00:41:56.489 --> 00:42:00.010 so much to beef that we don't have as many replacement 00:42:00.010 --> 00:42:03.309 dairy cows. Well, they've gone overboard on the 00:42:03.309 --> 00:42:06.829 beef. It's like a lot of things. People go overboard 00:42:06.829 --> 00:42:11.250 on it. They need to figure out how many replacement 00:42:11.250 --> 00:42:15.679 heifers they need. And make sure they bring them. 00:42:16.059 --> 00:42:17.980 And it takes me back to thinking of you about 00:42:17.980 --> 00:42:20.980 your bad becoming normal. Like, we just went 00:42:20.980 --> 00:42:22.760 so hard that it just seemed normal, and now we're 00:42:22.760 --> 00:42:26.159 paying the price for going too far in one direction. 00:42:26.199 --> 00:42:28.099 Well, this tends to happen. People have a tendency 00:42:28.099 --> 00:42:31.780 to go too far on something. Then the pendulum 00:42:31.780 --> 00:42:35.079 swings back, but sometimes the too far gets kind 00:42:35.079 --> 00:42:37.300 of bad before they realize the pendulum needs 00:42:37.300 --> 00:42:41.880 to swing back. Yeah. And we're having to almost 00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:44.500 buy. Necessity at this point because farmers 00:42:44.500 --> 00:42:46.920 can't produce as much milk if you don't have 00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:48.880 as many cows to milk and they're not able to 00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:50.880 replace them. Exactly. You've got to figure out, 00:42:50.900 --> 00:42:55.139 you really need to figure out how many milking 00:42:55.139 --> 00:42:57.199 cows you're going to need so you breed enough 00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:00.800 replacements. Yeah. Yeah, you've got to figure 00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:05.059 that out. Yeah. Now, I was sitting here and actually 00:43:05.059 --> 00:43:06.639 one of the first things that started me down 00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:10.389 the avenue With you and looking, because I always 00:43:10.389 --> 00:43:11.949 associated more with beef, a little bit with 00:43:11.949 --> 00:43:14.510 dairy, but more with beef. Yeah, beef has been 00:43:14.510 --> 00:43:17.570 what I've mainly worked on. But then I would 00:43:17.570 --> 00:43:20.210 say, oh, I think it's about two months ago now, 00:43:20.369 --> 00:43:27.349 but when your AVMA award, Humane Award, was announced, 00:43:27.610 --> 00:43:29.730 I know you're receiving it here shortly, but 00:43:29.730 --> 00:43:33.789 when you announced it, and we posted it on our 00:43:33.789 --> 00:43:36.289 Facebook page, and I think it reached almost 00:43:36.289 --> 00:43:40.050 two million people. on our Facebook page. So 00:43:40.050 --> 00:43:42.110 then I realized that, hey, even in the dairy 00:43:42.110 --> 00:43:44.250 audience, which is not saying that, but I always 00:43:44.250 --> 00:43:46.070 associate it more that way, there is certainly 00:43:46.070 --> 00:43:50.789 a lot of respect for the work you have done for 00:43:50.789 --> 00:43:53.250 cattle in general, meaning not just beef. Well, 00:43:53.250 --> 00:43:56.150 we always want to try to have some very objective 00:43:56.150 --> 00:43:58.849 things. In food safety, we have a concept called 00:43:58.849 --> 00:44:01.869 critical control points. You can't measure everything. 00:44:02.150 --> 00:44:04.070 So when I look at what are critical control points, 00:44:04.130 --> 00:44:07.090 let's say for dairy, lactating dairy, cow, welfare, 00:44:07.610 --> 00:44:09.590 Well, let's look at some of the basics. Body 00:44:09.590 --> 00:44:14.369 condition score, dirty, sores and lesions on 00:44:14.369 --> 00:44:19.110 the legs, and length. Those are four very important 00:44:19.110 --> 00:44:23.090 things that I can easily measure, and there's 00:44:23.090 --> 00:44:25.250 good, easy -to -use scoring tools available. 00:44:26.130 --> 00:44:29.869 And by measuring those things, you can make sure 00:44:29.869 --> 00:44:31.429 you don't have some of the worst animal welfare 00:44:31.429 --> 00:44:33.750 issues. Now, the other thing that's coming up 00:44:33.750 --> 00:44:37.849 now in animal welfare science, is we've got to 00:44:37.849 --> 00:44:40.289 prevent cruelty. You know, and those four critical 00:44:40.289 --> 00:44:43.929 control points prevent suffering. Okay, you let 00:44:43.929 --> 00:44:47.590 an animal get a gigantic swollen joint. Yeah, 00:44:47.670 --> 00:44:49.769 that's definitely suffering. That's not okay. 00:44:50.170 --> 00:44:52.389 But then doesn't an animal have any positive 00:44:52.389 --> 00:44:55.070 experiences in its life? I've seen dairy cows 00:44:55.070 --> 00:44:57.349 on those videos, and I've also watched them on 00:44:57.349 --> 00:45:00.389 the dairy, use those motorized brushes. I'm not 00:45:00.389 --> 00:45:02.489 supposed to say an animal loves something. They 00:45:02.489 --> 00:45:05.309 love those brushes. You need to look at those 00:45:05.309 --> 00:45:10.050 YouTube videos. It's obvious. And that's something 00:45:10.050 --> 00:45:13.190 that's giving the animal a good time. We've also 00:45:13.190 --> 00:45:15.289 got to make sure it has a life worth living. 00:45:16.230 --> 00:45:19.610 And if you live in a filthy, dirty barn full 00:45:19.610 --> 00:45:23.349 of ammonia and you've got giant swollen hocks, 00:45:23.469 --> 00:45:25.730 you probably don't have a life worth living. 00:45:28.050 --> 00:45:31.429 So that's something that's getting more of an 00:45:31.429 --> 00:45:33.750 emphasis where, yes, we've got to prevent suffering. 00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:38.039 But that alone is not sufficient. This is where 00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:40.260 the animal welfare science is going right now. 00:45:41.739 --> 00:45:44.400 And the big trend we have, especially in dairy 00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:46.539 right now, or one of the trends, I think it's 00:45:46.539 --> 00:45:49.739 in beef as well, is the precision livestock sensors 00:45:49.739 --> 00:45:52.119 and monitoring everything. Yeah, and there's 00:45:52.119 --> 00:45:54.300 some good things. Like there's Merck has a program 00:45:54.300 --> 00:45:56.760 where they can monitor whether cows are in heat. 00:45:57.480 --> 00:46:00.619 They have a collar. They can monitor rumination. 00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:03.639 There's some really good things. that can be 00:46:03.639 --> 00:46:07.320 done with remote sensing. But again, it's not 00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:12.320 automatic management. No, I think you can see 00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:14.300 the numbers and maybe see that it's bad, but 00:46:14.300 --> 00:46:16.099 it doesn't solve the problem for you. I think 00:46:16.099 --> 00:46:18.059 that's where a lot of the stuff, especially with 00:46:18.059 --> 00:46:19.840 what you do. No, it doesn't solve the problem. 00:46:20.059 --> 00:46:23.460 Because on the system, you've got, it'll tell 00:46:23.460 --> 00:46:25.179 you whether the cow's in heat or whether she's 00:46:25.179 --> 00:46:27.300 sick. You've got to bring the cow in and temp 00:46:27.300 --> 00:46:31.420 them and check them for mastitis. You still have 00:46:31.420 --> 00:46:34.599 to bring them in. It will tell you there's a 00:46:34.599 --> 00:46:40.039 problem, but it doesn't fix the problem. No. 00:46:40.139 --> 00:46:43.199 See, this is where the management has to really 00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:46.659 get behind doing things right. Because when I 00:46:46.659 --> 00:46:48.960 first started out, I thought I could build a 00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:52.119 handling facility that would be so good that 00:46:52.119 --> 00:46:53.599 you just automatically would have good handling. 00:46:53.840 --> 00:46:59.820 Rubbish. You have to have management that... 00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:01.619 She says, okay, we are not going to yell and 00:47:01.619 --> 00:47:03.099 scream at our cows. We're not going to hit them. 00:47:03.780 --> 00:47:07.199 We're going to bed our cubicles really well so 00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:09.579 we don't get swollen hops. One of my students 00:47:09.579 --> 00:47:13.360 in 2007 did a paper. She went to over 100 dairies 00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:16.480 in the U .S. and places that bedded their stalls 00:47:16.480 --> 00:47:21.880 better had less swollen hops. You see, and there's 00:47:21.880 --> 00:47:23.800 also a design. Some of the cubicles have gotten 00:47:23.800 --> 00:47:25.900 too small for some of the big, gigantic cows. 00:47:26.280 --> 00:47:28.380 And then the rear end of the cow goes over the 00:47:28.380 --> 00:47:31.199 curb. And that's where the joints get on the 00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:37.599 concrete, on the curb. But she also found that 00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:40.880 the really good management greatly reduced swollen 00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:46.360 hearts. Yes, very much so. But it's interesting 00:47:46.360 --> 00:47:48.119 because you even brought up about the brushes. 00:47:48.340 --> 00:47:51.219 I'm like, it's not just about doing the minimum 00:47:51.219 --> 00:47:55.639 to not hurt them. I think a big opportunity, 00:47:56.079 --> 00:47:57.840 especially I would say within dairy because I'm 00:47:57.840 --> 00:48:00.550 more familiar, Maybe not worrying about just, 00:48:00.730 --> 00:48:04.010 well, obviously we ought to limit what hurts 00:48:04.010 --> 00:48:05.929 them, but I think we need to think more about 00:48:05.929 --> 00:48:08.150 what rewards them or what actually makes it. 00:48:09.309 --> 00:48:13.369 Like a soft, dry place to lay down. Yeah. The 00:48:13.369 --> 00:48:17.670 research is clear on that. Yes. And sometimes 00:48:17.670 --> 00:48:21.010 they, ideally you should have one cubicle or 00:48:21.010 --> 00:48:24.690 one freestall per animal. And some people are 00:48:24.690 --> 00:48:28.170 really shortening them on the amount of freestalls. 00:48:29.690 --> 00:48:32.449 And there's a point where people push it, where 00:48:32.449 --> 00:48:35.329 they put too many animals on a single robotic 00:48:35.329 --> 00:48:37.429 milking unit, and you're going to be in trouble. 00:48:37.730 --> 00:48:42.969 In pigs, we have robotic feeders for pigs. And 00:48:42.969 --> 00:48:45.530 you put too many sows on one feeder, you get 00:48:45.530 --> 00:48:49.849 into trouble. People are always pushing a woman. 00:48:51.329 --> 00:48:56.110 And then also, a lot of this equipment takes 00:48:56.110 --> 00:48:58.400 a lot of maintenance. You've got to take care 00:48:58.400 --> 00:49:01.840 of it. I'd use, let's say, for a new milking 00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:05.099 parlor. I'm going to buy it from a dealer that 00:49:05.099 --> 00:49:09.500 has the best service because that thing has to 00:49:09.500 --> 00:49:14.559 be maintained. Whether I buy this brand or that 00:49:14.559 --> 00:49:17.420 brand, I'm going to put a lot of emphasis on 00:49:17.420 --> 00:49:20.519 which dealer has the best repair people and maintenance 00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:23.039 people to come out and keep my equipment functioning 00:49:23.039 --> 00:49:26.989 right. It's interesting and nice thinking about 00:49:26.989 --> 00:49:29.389 it, but the other thing that's right now is that 00:49:29.389 --> 00:49:32.150 we're very much breeding for a smaller cow. We're 00:49:32.150 --> 00:49:34.809 even changing our national indexes in the states. 00:49:35.070 --> 00:49:38.869 The net merit index has a less emphasis than 00:49:38.869 --> 00:49:41.769 the TPI index on stature. I think that's good 00:49:41.769 --> 00:49:44.389 on a smaller cow because they rip their backs 00:49:44.389 --> 00:49:46.469 apart when they come out of the bottom deck of 00:49:46.469 --> 00:49:50.090 the truck, and they've already modified the trailers 00:49:50.090 --> 00:49:53.639 with a flip -up ramp. That gives you another 00:49:53.639 --> 00:49:58.139 five inches of space. But we've got a height 00:49:58.139 --> 00:50:02.639 limitation that's a lot lower than Europe. Eastern 00:50:02.639 --> 00:50:05.260 United States, you're stuck with it. Too many 00:50:05.260 --> 00:50:07.760 low railroad bridges. Well, as I say, and even 00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:13.940 in cows in the facilities, in stalls, it's easier 00:50:13.940 --> 00:50:15.699 to... They don't fit in the older barns. They 00:50:15.699 --> 00:50:18.420 don't fit in the stalls. And in my welfare book, 00:50:18.460 --> 00:50:22.280 I've got a picture of a big, gigantic cow where 00:50:22.280 --> 00:50:26.420 her... rear end is going over the curb and her 00:50:26.420 --> 00:50:28.579 hawk joints are right on the concrete curb and 00:50:28.579 --> 00:50:31.360 then the cow that fits in the stall same barn 00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:32.940 i got a picture of them right beside each other 00:50:32.940 --> 00:50:36.400 students can look at to see whether or not stalls 00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:40.920 fit the cows and we we kid but don't kid that 00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:43.579 or when i work with some herds is it's easier 00:50:43.579 --> 00:50:47.420 to breed a smaller cow than it is to build a 00:50:47.420 --> 00:50:51.599 new barn exactly Oh, exactly. It's easier to 00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:53.420 breed a smaller cow that fits in the trailer, 00:50:53.519 --> 00:50:57.420 in the truck, too. Because we're kind of stuck 00:50:57.420 --> 00:51:00.780 with some of the trucks we've got. And they will 00:51:00.780 --> 00:51:04.860 put a gigantic bruise right down the spine when 00:51:04.860 --> 00:51:07.559 the cow comes out of the bottom deck. Because, 00:51:07.579 --> 00:51:11.139 you see, in Australia, you can put two decks 00:51:11.139 --> 00:51:13.000 of cattle above the wheels. We can't do that 00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:15.440 in the U .S. because of our height limitations. 00:51:16.780 --> 00:51:19.340 But that's why our trucks have to, what they 00:51:19.340 --> 00:51:22.980 call, have a pot in between the wheels and you 00:51:22.980 --> 00:51:24.699 have to have a lamp to come up out of the pot 00:51:24.699 --> 00:51:28.500 and and then you have a top deck and then they 00:51:28.500 --> 00:51:31.440 hit the top deck as you come out you beat a smaller 00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:34.480 cow then you don't have this problem yeah very 00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:36.619 much what's this ringing i keep hearing sorry 00:51:36.619 --> 00:51:40.079 it's my recording program telling me i don't 00:51:40.079 --> 00:51:42.340 know how to turn it off but i'll oh okay sorry 00:51:42.340 --> 00:51:45.980 um the other thing i was thinking is that you 00:51:45.980 --> 00:51:48.070 talk about different standards everywhere One 00:51:48.070 --> 00:51:49.710 of the things I think is also that's quite different 00:51:49.710 --> 00:51:52.829 is the use of cattle prods. Like in Europe, it's 00:51:52.829 --> 00:51:58.389 not allowed. My feeling on cattle prods is, well, 00:51:58.449 --> 00:52:00.389 I'd like to say I'm not using the milking parlor, 00:52:00.530 --> 00:52:04.570 but let's say beef or dairy slaughterhouse. This 00:52:04.570 --> 00:52:07.449 is where I've had, what our plants have done, 00:52:07.489 --> 00:52:09.349 we used to have them all over the yards. Truck 00:52:09.349 --> 00:52:11.170 drivers had them, everything was shocking, everything. 00:52:11.489 --> 00:52:13.869 What we've done on our big plants is ban them 00:52:13.869 --> 00:52:16.820 for the trucks. Like a big fed beef plant, band 00:52:16.820 --> 00:52:19.179 them in the yard or in the leverage area. They 00:52:19.179 --> 00:52:21.300 have one electric prod at the stun box entrance, 00:52:21.440 --> 00:52:24.739 and it cannot be in somebody's hand. It either 00:52:24.739 --> 00:52:27.260 has to be on a shelf, or it leans against the 00:52:27.260 --> 00:52:32.579 wall, or it hangs on a nail. And it's only picked 00:52:32.579 --> 00:52:34.900 up if you get an animal, don't go in the stun 00:52:34.900 --> 00:52:40.420 box. Well, you buzz it once, and then put it 00:52:40.420 --> 00:52:44.159 away. Because otherwise, they're hitting them. 00:52:44.809 --> 00:52:48.989 breaking their tails. Now, to my feeling, an 00:52:48.989 --> 00:52:51.250 electric prod is not a total ban, but get it 00:52:51.250 --> 00:52:54.489 out of your hand. It must never be the primary 00:52:54.489 --> 00:52:57.530 driving tool. So our really good fed beef plants, 00:52:57.789 --> 00:53:00.150 they've gotten the use of the electric prod, 00:53:00.170 --> 00:53:02.869 maybe 15 % of the animals at the stun box get 00:53:02.869 --> 00:53:06.170 one buzz, and it's banned on the trucks, like 00:53:06.170 --> 00:53:08.130 our two big fed beef plants here in Colorado. 00:53:08.349 --> 00:53:10.909 I just recently have been over at them. It's 00:53:10.909 --> 00:53:13.369 banned in the leverage. It's banned on the trucks. 00:53:13.690 --> 00:53:15.989 They have one electric pod at the sun box entrance, 00:53:16.309 --> 00:53:20.389 and it's only picked up for the occasional stubborn 00:53:20.389 --> 00:53:24.690 animal and then put away. Because when you totally 00:53:24.690 --> 00:53:27.929 ban them, I've seen some pretty abusive stuff. 00:53:28.010 --> 00:53:34.590 That's when a tail gets broken. And we also need 00:53:34.590 --> 00:53:38.230 to take the time to introduce heifers to the 00:53:38.230 --> 00:53:40.730 parlor quietly, and this is where I think we 00:53:40.730 --> 00:53:43.679 made a mistake taking the... grain feeding out 00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:47.380 of the milking parlor. Now in a parallel parlor, 00:53:47.460 --> 00:53:48.900 you'd have a really hard time putting it back 00:53:48.900 --> 00:53:51.300 in, but a rotary, you could put it back in. Because 00:53:51.300 --> 00:53:54.059 I remember when we grain fed in parlors. That's 00:53:54.059 --> 00:53:56.659 where being 50 years in the, and I actually did 00:53:56.659 --> 00:53:59.500 quite a bit of milking of cows in different dairies 00:53:59.500 --> 00:54:02.800 in the early 70s when I was livestock editor 00:54:02.800 --> 00:54:06.000 for our state farm mix for seven years in the 00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:08.719 70s. There were dairies I used to go over and 00:54:08.719 --> 00:54:13.500 milk cows in just to try out the equipment. Yep, 00:54:13.559 --> 00:54:16.440 yep. And those all had grain feeding, and I think 00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:19.980 it helped get them in there. And then they went 00:54:19.980 --> 00:54:22.739 to the totally mixed ration, or the TMR, and 00:54:22.739 --> 00:54:25.739 they stopped the grain feeding. And the thing 00:54:25.739 --> 00:54:29.099 is, you don't have to feed them very much. Just 00:54:29.099 --> 00:54:33.300 a few. You could feed them a coffee cup of feed, 00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:36.079 and that would get them in the parlor. You could 00:54:36.079 --> 00:54:38.980 still use your TMR. You just need to give them 00:54:38.980 --> 00:54:41.949 a taste. But I've worked on rewarding animals 00:54:41.949 --> 00:54:44.949 to cooperate with veterinary procedures. Oh, 00:54:45.090 --> 00:54:46.969 you could take one little teaspoon you'd have 00:54:46.969 --> 00:54:50.190 for your coffee cup, horse feed, and I could 00:54:50.190 --> 00:54:52.869 get sheep just to line up for the privilege of 00:54:52.869 --> 00:54:55.969 going on the tilt table for one teaspoon of horse 00:54:55.969 --> 00:55:01.969 feed. I was recently just in the Azores, so Portugal, 00:55:02.170 --> 00:55:07.630 but the island, and feeding is... The grain is 00:55:07.630 --> 00:55:08.829 very expensive because they have to bring it 00:55:08.829 --> 00:55:10.409 in. So they don't do much of it, but they still 00:55:10.409 --> 00:55:14.190 do it in the parlor. And you only need a little 00:55:14.190 --> 00:55:16.030 bit. It doesn't have too much, but just a little 00:55:16.030 --> 00:55:17.889 bit. And it makes a world of difference from 00:55:17.889 --> 00:55:20.329 the cows. I think we made a big mistake taking 00:55:20.329 --> 00:55:23.469 that out because when I started out in the 70s, 00:55:23.469 --> 00:55:26.429 for all the dairies in the 70s in Arizona, and 00:55:26.429 --> 00:55:29.349 we were a big dairy state, fed in the parlor. 00:55:29.469 --> 00:55:33.429 All of them did when I first started. I saw 10 00:55:33.429 --> 00:55:36.719 years of feeding in the parlor. And then in the 00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:38.940 80s, they started phasing it out. When the parallels 00:55:38.940 --> 00:55:43.340 came in, you know, you can't feed nose. But I 00:55:43.340 --> 00:55:47.920 think it was a mistake taking that out. So, and 00:55:47.920 --> 00:55:51.840 you're talking, so over 50 years, you've been 00:55:51.840 --> 00:55:55.179 doing this. What still drives you? Because you've 00:55:55.179 --> 00:55:57.239 been doing it quite long and you seem to be still 00:55:57.239 --> 00:55:59.719 quite passionate about it. What keeps driving 00:55:59.719 --> 00:56:03.820 you? Well, the handling has gotten 1 ,000 % better. 00:56:04.909 --> 00:56:06.809 Dairy cattle and beef cattle both. Handling has 00:56:06.809 --> 00:56:09.349 really gotten better. Our different associations, 00:56:09.349 --> 00:56:12.530 like our Beef Cattle Association, has handling 00:56:12.530 --> 00:56:15.389 workshops that they've been doing all over the 00:56:15.389 --> 00:56:18.789 country, and it's been getting a lot of push 00:56:18.789 --> 00:56:20.949 for low -stress handling. That's something that's 00:56:20.949 --> 00:56:24.710 absolutely wonderful, all this low -stress handling, 00:56:24.769 --> 00:56:29.969 and now we're getting problems with foot abnormalities 00:56:29.969 --> 00:56:32.349 and congestive heart failure. You know, somebody 00:56:32.349 --> 00:56:34.650 had said to me 15 years ago if that would happen, 00:56:34.690 --> 00:56:38.789 I would have thought it was crazy. But now this 00:56:38.789 --> 00:56:41.969 interferes with my good handling. If I've got 00:56:41.969 --> 00:56:45.329 animals with sore feet and they're weak from 00:56:45.329 --> 00:56:46.349 problems with their heart, they're not going 00:56:46.349 --> 00:56:49.530 to want to move. So then what happens? They get 00:56:49.530 --> 00:56:52.190 abused when they don't want to move. Yeah, yeah, 00:56:52.250 --> 00:56:54.909 unfortunately. But you see, grain's expensive, 00:56:54.969 --> 00:56:58.150 but you only need a taste to get them into the 00:56:58.150 --> 00:57:01.579 parlor. It's amazing how the small amount that 00:57:01.579 --> 00:57:03.480 will work as a reward, just a taste of candy, 00:57:03.619 --> 00:57:10.519 gets them in. You talked a lot about management 00:57:10.519 --> 00:57:15.739 needs to get on board with all of this, to understand 00:57:15.739 --> 00:57:18.860 this. What advice would you give management, 00:57:19.059 --> 00:57:21.539 say, someone, if they said, okay, I get it, I 00:57:21.539 --> 00:57:24.199 got to do something, what should I do? Well, 00:57:24.199 --> 00:57:26.900 first of all, I just went out to a beef cattle 00:57:26.900 --> 00:57:29.300 place. I'm not going to say it. where it is, 00:57:29.360 --> 00:57:32.179 but I was just there just the other day. And 00:57:32.179 --> 00:57:35.820 they raise beef cattle, Angus beef cattle out 00:57:35.820 --> 00:57:38.559 on pasture. And I didn't see their handling, 00:57:38.639 --> 00:57:41.099 but they told me they yell and scream at them, 00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:45.780 and they whack them with the driving tools. And 00:57:45.780 --> 00:57:49.159 I said, the first thing we've got to do is to 00:57:49.159 --> 00:57:52.739 stop yelling and screaming at them. The research 00:57:52.739 --> 00:57:54.659 is clear that yelling and screaming really stresses 00:57:54.659 --> 00:57:57.150 cattle out. and then I had a few simple changes 00:57:57.150 --> 00:57:58.869 they could make on their handling facility. They 00:57:58.869 --> 00:58:02.610 had a well -built steel handling facility, some 00:58:02.610 --> 00:58:05.269 layout mistakes, but we're not tearing that up, 00:58:05.289 --> 00:58:06.829 and I just showed them you need to put a solid 00:58:06.829 --> 00:58:10.469 side up here so they don't see the operator or 00:58:10.469 --> 00:58:12.269 the squeeze chute when they come in, and don't 00:58:12.269 --> 00:58:14.889 park three pickups right in front of the facility. 00:58:16.469 --> 00:58:21.489 Let's just do those two simple changes, but the 00:58:21.489 --> 00:58:24.849 manager has to decide that they're going to stop. 00:58:25.239 --> 00:58:26.960 yelling and screaming at cattle and hitting them. 00:58:27.440 --> 00:58:30.219 Because once they get all fearful and scared, 00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:32.960 it takes 20 minutes for cattle to calm down if 00:58:32.960 --> 00:58:36.480 you get them all scared. Yeah. If they get scared 00:58:36.480 --> 00:58:40.619 instantly, 20 minutes to calm down. So the first 00:58:40.619 --> 00:58:42.260 thing is we're not going to yell and scream at 00:58:42.260 --> 00:58:45.000 them. That's the first thing we've got to do. 00:58:47.039 --> 00:58:49.059 We've got to do that. And we'll make these simple 00:58:49.059 --> 00:58:51.699 changes in the facility, put up a solid side 00:58:51.699 --> 00:58:54.800 so they don't see. People up ahead and park the 00:58:54.800 --> 00:58:57.239 pickup so that the cattle don't see the vehicles 00:58:57.239 --> 00:59:04.039 as they come up the chute. Those are simple things 00:59:04.039 --> 00:59:07.659 to do. But there's a lot of low stress handling 00:59:07.659 --> 00:59:10.400 workshops doing really good things. But in the 00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:12.599 beginning, I just worked the basics. Don't yell 00:59:12.599 --> 00:59:16.579 and scream at them and hit them. That's the first 00:59:16.579 --> 00:59:19.460 thing we've got to do. And then there's a lot 00:59:19.460 --> 00:59:21.519 of things that the low stress handling people 00:59:21.519 --> 00:59:24.079 can teach you. Flight zone, point of balance, 00:59:24.320 --> 00:59:26.719 exactly where to stand. But the first thing that 00:59:26.719 --> 00:59:28.800 people have to do is you've got to have calm 00:59:28.800 --> 00:59:32.000 down. You've got to calm down. And it seems like 00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:34.440 common sense, but the research also backs it 00:59:34.440 --> 00:59:37.119 quite heavily too. Research backs it up. And 00:59:37.119 --> 00:59:39.760 there's a lot of research, old research and new 00:59:39.760 --> 00:59:41.420 research, and it all tells you the same thing. 00:59:44.219 --> 00:59:48.619 And people that like animals tend to have a better 00:59:48.619 --> 00:59:51.429 attitude. and they're more willing to calm down 00:59:51.429 --> 00:59:55.110 and stop screaming at them. Yeah, yeah, no, very 00:59:55.110 --> 01:00:01.969 much so. I appreciate that. So now we've talked 01:00:01.969 --> 01:00:06.130 a lot about your work within the cattle and livestock, 01:00:06.230 --> 01:00:08.409 and one of the things I wanted to share was, 01:00:08.510 --> 01:00:11.090 as much as I know you say you've done mostly 01:00:11.090 --> 01:00:14.449 in beef, I think your impact has been felt. I 01:00:14.449 --> 01:00:16.309 would say that, yeah, and I do quite a bit of 01:00:16.309 --> 01:00:20.099 pig work too. Beef is what I've worked on the 01:00:20.099 --> 01:00:22.760 most, worked on. But I would say that your impact 01:00:22.760 --> 01:00:25.019 has been in many different areas, because even 01:00:25.019 --> 01:00:26.860 if you haven't worked directly yourself, the 01:00:26.860 --> 01:00:29.139 lessons that others have learned from what you 01:00:29.139 --> 01:00:31.500 teach in the beef side have been brought over 01:00:31.500 --> 01:00:34.639 to other parts. Oh, it applies to all the animals. 01:00:34.840 --> 01:00:36.679 And I have a book you might be interested in. 01:00:36.860 --> 01:00:39.500 It's called The Grandin Papers. And what I did 01:00:39.500 --> 01:00:41.980 in this book is take all my best journal articles, 01:00:42.219 --> 01:00:45.099 compile them into one book, and I have a little 01:00:45.099 --> 01:00:47.639 forward for each article explaining why I picked 01:00:47.639 --> 01:00:52.519 it. It's called the Grandin Papers. Okay. We'll 01:00:52.519 --> 01:00:56.559 very much incorporate that. And I just want to 01:00:56.559 --> 01:00:58.420 say that we appreciate it, the work you've done. 01:00:58.460 --> 01:01:01.000 I think you're with your award with the... No, 01:01:01.039 --> 01:01:03.300 I also try to keep it really, really practical. 01:01:03.659 --> 01:01:08.260 Okay, I went out to this farm, and they don't 01:01:08.260 --> 01:01:10.340 exactly have that much money, but they build 01:01:10.340 --> 01:01:13.519 a decent steel handling facility. It's not the 01:01:13.519 --> 01:01:15.380 design I would have picked, but it's usable. 01:01:16.300 --> 01:01:17.659 I can't go out there and just recommend they 01:01:17.659 --> 01:01:19.780 tear that up because it's not one of my designs. 01:01:20.019 --> 01:01:23.099 I recommend a place to put up some solid sides 01:01:23.099 --> 01:01:25.579 just in two places to put plywood on the sides 01:01:25.579 --> 01:01:29.800 and get the vehicles out of the way. And then 01:01:29.800 --> 01:01:33.619 let's start with stopping screaming and yelling. 01:01:36.019 --> 01:01:39.619 Let's start there. And one of the other things. 01:01:39.760 --> 01:01:42.420 These simple things. And it's going to make a 01:01:42.420 --> 01:01:47.429 big difference. Okay. I was just there two days 01:01:47.429 --> 01:01:53.750 ago. Okay. And I was thinking, in doing this, 01:01:53.829 --> 01:01:56.610 my wife, who doesn't come from a dairy background, 01:01:56.769 --> 01:02:01.030 but she's an emergency psychiatrist. We watched 01:02:01.030 --> 01:02:03.230 your movie, and it was interesting. Okay, the 01:02:03.230 --> 01:02:06.369 HBO movie. The HBO movie, yes. But we both took 01:02:06.369 --> 01:02:08.949 different things out. She looked at it from the 01:02:08.949 --> 01:02:13.800 perspective of just human behavior. But the similarities 01:02:13.800 --> 01:02:16.059 and how you looked at it and all that, she was 01:02:16.059 --> 01:02:17.699 fascinated that way. Of course, I was fascinated 01:02:17.699 --> 01:02:20.539 because I come from the livestock side. I was 01:02:20.539 --> 01:02:22.380 fascinated from that side. But it was interesting 01:02:22.380 --> 01:02:24.960 just to see your impact there, too, that she 01:02:24.960 --> 01:02:27.719 has no dairy cattle or no cattle connection, 01:02:27.920 --> 01:02:30.019 but still was fascinated with the work you had 01:02:30.019 --> 01:02:32.599 done and the perspective you brought to things 01:02:32.599 --> 01:02:35.400 and the challenges you faced. Well, the movie 01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:39.300 showed how I think visually. Yeah. That's accurate. 01:02:39.360 --> 01:02:42.039 The movie shows that, and it's accurate. Yeah. 01:02:44.300 --> 01:02:46.440 What were your thoughts on the movie? Did you 01:02:46.440 --> 01:02:48.400 enjoy doing that? I thought they did a really 01:02:48.400 --> 01:02:51.099 good job of the visual thinking shown accurately. 01:02:51.320 --> 01:02:54.380 They duplicated my projects off of original drawings. 01:02:54.719 --> 01:02:58.880 And Claire Danes imitated my voice so good that 01:02:58.880 --> 01:03:02.360 when I was interviewed on the radio and they 01:03:02.360 --> 01:03:04.980 had Claire Danes talking and then me talking, 01:03:05.159 --> 01:03:09.599 I almost mixed us up. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's how 01:03:09.599 --> 01:03:12.599 good she was at imitating me. I think it's also 01:03:12.599 --> 01:03:15.159 quite a testament to you that, you know, here's 01:03:15.159 --> 01:03:18.639 a mainstream media movie about your life that 01:03:18.639 --> 01:03:20.940 tells you just how much of an impact you've had. 01:03:21.099 --> 01:03:23.699 And I think that's quite impressive. Well, I 01:03:23.699 --> 01:03:25.639 want to say there's other kids that, you know, 01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:28.619 I had no speech until age four. I was the kind 01:03:28.619 --> 01:03:30.780 of kid that, you know, thought I could just go 01:03:30.780 --> 01:03:34.519 nowhere, not good at math, visual thinkers. But 01:03:34.519 --> 01:03:37.099 then when we were out building facilities, I 01:03:37.099 --> 01:03:40.349 found people that owned big machine shops. that 01:03:40.349 --> 01:03:43.550 were probably autistic, and they couldn't do 01:03:43.550 --> 01:03:45.889 higher math. But boy, they could build anything. 01:03:46.150 --> 01:03:48.789 They could just see how to build it. And they 01:03:48.789 --> 01:03:56.190 invented a lot of mechanical equipment. It's 01:03:56.190 --> 01:03:58.929 interesting because when we talked about this, 01:03:58.969 --> 01:04:00.730 and there's been some recent developments politically 01:04:00.730 --> 01:04:06.610 about funding or working with autism, but I think 01:04:06.610 --> 01:04:10.739 you're the textbook case of why, You just need 01:04:10.739 --> 01:04:12.719 to find the strengths in it as opposed to... 01:04:12.719 --> 01:04:17.119 Exactly. Well, Einstein didn't speak to age three. 01:04:17.219 --> 01:04:21.019 He had autism. Bill Gates has a book. He's autistic. 01:04:21.639 --> 01:04:25.179 Yeah. Those are two brilliant minds right there. 01:04:25.380 --> 01:04:30.219 As I say, the impact. And so it's been huge. 01:04:30.300 --> 01:04:33.059 I think it's more just... I'll call it channeling 01:04:33.059 --> 01:04:35.199 the focus or focusing it in the right direction. 01:04:35.840 --> 01:04:38.380 Well, that's right. And you see the kids that... 01:04:39.230 --> 01:04:41.090 See, actually, I was out on a huge construction 01:04:41.090 --> 01:04:45.110 project. They were building giant tanks. And 01:04:45.110 --> 01:04:51.530 tanks as in containers, not war tanks. And one 01:04:51.530 --> 01:04:54.710 of the things they're concerned about is losing 01:04:54.710 --> 01:04:57.050 their know -how. I watched them take a crane 01:04:57.050 --> 01:05:00.730 and place a huge pie -shaped panel in place to 01:05:00.730 --> 01:05:03.829 be part of the top of this tank. And I took an 01:05:03.829 --> 01:05:05.989 hour to place this one panel. I watched how they 01:05:05.989 --> 01:05:08.550 did the whole thing. And I go, that takes a lot 01:05:08.550 --> 01:05:10.949 of know -how. And we had a discussion afterwards 01:05:10.949 --> 01:05:16.309 that they're very concerned about the people 01:05:16.309 --> 01:05:20.130 that are retiring that have the know -how and 01:05:20.130 --> 01:05:23.829 not replacing them. And a lot of these people 01:05:23.829 --> 01:05:26.269 that have the know -how, they might be dyslexic, 01:05:26.269 --> 01:05:28.469 they might be somewhat autistic, they took shop 01:05:28.469 --> 01:05:31.469 when they were kids, they just started out working 01:05:31.469 --> 01:05:35.130 in the field, and they figure out how to do this 01:05:35.130 --> 01:05:39.150 stuff. Yep. And it's a different skill set than 01:05:39.150 --> 01:05:41.369 the engineer mathematician who designs the panel. 01:05:41.570 --> 01:05:43.070 Okay, I've got to make it out of this steel. 01:05:43.550 --> 01:05:45.309 It's going to have this curvature. It's going 01:05:45.309 --> 01:05:48.489 to be this thickness of steel. And I don't want 01:05:48.489 --> 01:05:51.590 to waste steel making it, but I can't make it 01:05:51.590 --> 01:05:54.130 so light it's going to break. Okay, that's the 01:05:54.130 --> 01:05:57.610 mathematician. But then to place this thing, 01:05:57.650 --> 01:05:58.969 you've got to have the crane in just the right 01:05:58.969 --> 01:06:01.309 position. You have to keep the boom pretty straight. 01:06:02.329 --> 01:06:04.409 because the panel's extremely heavy. You tip 01:06:04.409 --> 01:06:06.730 the crane over if you put the boom too far down. 01:06:07.769 --> 01:06:11.349 You see, that's the know -how. I'm very glad 01:06:11.349 --> 01:06:14.610 I saw this, because this gets into my sort of 01:06:14.610 --> 01:06:17.070 stuff I've been activating about on visual thinking. 01:06:17.389 --> 01:06:19.670 And we're screening out these visual thinkers 01:06:19.670 --> 01:06:22.650 that know exactly how to move that panel. I watch 01:06:22.650 --> 01:06:25.230 them lift it up, take a little weight off of 01:06:25.230 --> 01:06:27.349 it with the crane, put the weight back down with 01:06:27.349 --> 01:06:29.889 the crane, and get the panel to bend some so 01:06:29.889 --> 01:06:33.880 they could put it in place. This is a huge construction 01:06:33.880 --> 01:06:36.800 company. And I said, the people that you need 01:06:36.800 --> 01:06:38.980 are in the basement playing video games on autism 01:06:38.980 --> 01:06:41.840 diagnosis. They've never been introduced to tools. 01:06:42.059 --> 01:06:45.260 But some of the people I worked with in the 80s 01:06:45.260 --> 01:06:47.099 and 90s when I was out on these big projects 01:06:47.099 --> 01:06:50.199 with Cargill, they were definitely autistic. 01:06:50.739 --> 01:06:52.659 You know, it's on the milder end of the spectrum. 01:06:53.800 --> 01:06:55.559 And you can have the visual thinking autistic, 01:06:55.960 --> 01:06:58.400 and then you have the mathematical mind autistic. 01:06:59.039 --> 01:07:01.380 that does the computer programming. And I review 01:07:01.380 --> 01:07:03.260 a lot of scientific papers. I got a paper right 01:07:03.260 --> 01:07:05.719 now, a method section system. It's awful. They 01:07:05.719 --> 01:07:08.320 sent me pages and pages and pages of computer 01:07:08.320 --> 01:07:13.079 programming. Ouch. But where is your method section? 01:07:13.619 --> 01:07:16.260 Where did you get the data that you put into 01:07:16.260 --> 01:07:19.219 the computer program? Mm -hmm. Yeah, I'm going 01:07:19.219 --> 01:07:20.519 to have to write a review on it. I'm going to 01:07:20.519 --> 01:07:23.380 be looking at a report because you're not telling 01:07:23.380 --> 01:07:26.420 me where you got the data. You put in, you sent 01:07:26.420 --> 01:07:30.960 me 20 pages of computer programming. But I have 01:07:30.960 --> 01:07:33.360 to know where the data came from. You see, that's 01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:35.619 methods. And that's the one thing, and I look 01:07:35.619 --> 01:07:37.880 at the way the world is headed now, and obviously 01:07:37.880 --> 01:07:42.260 AI is a huge trend in all things in life. Oh, 01:07:42.260 --> 01:07:44.860 I know. I know it is. But I think it misses the 01:07:44.860 --> 01:07:47.739 gap, and almost the gap that you specialize in 01:07:47.739 --> 01:07:51.460 is that it just doesn't look at things from the 01:07:51.460 --> 01:07:54.500 perspective or the other side of things that 01:07:54.500 --> 01:07:56.099 you still need. I think you need the balance 01:07:56.099 --> 01:07:58.300 of the two. You need the balance. Because let's 01:07:58.300 --> 01:08:00.519 say for food processing, for example, let's say 01:08:00.519 --> 01:08:03.320 dairy processing plant will get into your industry. 01:08:03.559 --> 01:08:08.460 You have the visual thinkers who are not mathematicians 01:08:08.460 --> 01:08:12.420 designing all the mechanical things. But we need 01:08:12.420 --> 01:08:16.239 mathematicians to do the refrigeration. I have 01:08:16.239 --> 01:08:18.500 seen that division of labor in every, mainly 01:08:18.500 --> 01:08:20.579 beef plants has been the biggest thing I've worked 01:08:20.579 --> 01:08:24.640 on. But the refrigeration requires a lot of mathematics. 01:08:25.579 --> 01:08:28.779 But the mechanical devices, I know a guy that 01:08:28.779 --> 01:08:30.640 has a specialty food plant, and I have to be 01:08:30.640 --> 01:08:33.640 vague about this equipment because I can't identify 01:08:33.640 --> 01:08:37.359 what it is. These people are not disclosed. But 01:08:37.359 --> 01:08:40.119 I talked to a guy who has a big specialty food 01:08:40.119 --> 01:08:44.479 business, and he started out washing dairy equipment 01:08:44.479 --> 01:08:48.039 in a dairy processing plant. He would have been 01:08:48.039 --> 01:08:50.939 every diagnosis in the book, we've talked about 01:08:50.939 --> 01:08:53.880 it, but totally crappy student. Then he started 01:08:53.880 --> 01:08:56.529 repairing the equipment. Then he started inventing 01:08:56.529 --> 01:09:04.989 it. Yeah. That's the kind of mind that we're 01:09:04.989 --> 01:09:08.390 not replacing them. The people I've worked with 01:09:08.390 --> 01:09:17.010 are all 50, 60, 70. I'll be 78 this summer. And 01:09:17.010 --> 01:09:19.689 it's been quite the career so far. And it doesn't 01:09:19.689 --> 01:09:21.829 sound like you're slowing up. And now, right 01:09:21.829 --> 01:09:24.210 now, I'm so concerned about... Losing some of 01:09:24.210 --> 01:09:26.409 our visual thinkers, they'd be some of your best 01:09:26.409 --> 01:09:29.010 people working with the dairy cows. Oh, yeah. 01:09:29.090 --> 01:09:32.869 Yeah, for sure. They'd be some of absolutely 01:09:32.869 --> 01:09:37.729 the best people. And what's happening is, okay, 01:09:37.770 --> 01:09:41.130 on the mechanical stuff and the skilled trade 01:09:41.130 --> 01:09:43.909 stuff, is, okay, kids in special ed, they say 01:09:43.909 --> 01:09:47.029 special ed kids can't take shop. And I say, in 01:09:47.029 --> 01:09:50.670 my generation, special ed kids owned the machine 01:09:50.670 --> 01:09:53.949 shops. Mm -hmm. And I'm not saying that's a joke. 01:09:54.109 --> 01:09:57.529 No, no. I was out on these projects. Okay, I 01:09:57.529 --> 01:09:59.789 went out on one huge construction project just 01:09:59.789 --> 01:10:02.869 two weeks ago. And I watched them put this big 01:10:02.869 --> 01:10:07.229 panel in place. And we talked about loss of know 01:10:07.229 --> 01:10:08.869 -how. And I said, a lot of know -how went into 01:10:08.869 --> 01:10:10.890 this. And I said, it often doesn't get enough 01:10:10.890 --> 01:10:16.689 credit. Yeah. No, and that's... Something I'm 01:10:16.689 --> 01:10:20.420 very concerned about. is some of the people you 01:10:20.420 --> 01:10:22.560 really need. They're not going to be the mathematicians. 01:10:23.239 --> 01:10:26.119 A lot of people I work with that can't do algebra, 01:10:26.180 --> 01:10:28.520 I can't do algebra either. It's too abstract. 01:10:30.659 --> 01:10:32.560 Yeah, and I think that's the one lesson I think 01:10:32.560 --> 01:10:36.760 everyone should take from here, is that we need 01:10:36.760 --> 01:10:39.899 to continue to, almost more so than ever, look 01:10:39.899 --> 01:10:41.680 at things differently and preserve the people 01:10:41.680 --> 01:10:44.239 who do look at things differently. We need the 01:10:44.239 --> 01:10:46.439 different kinds of thinkers in just building... 01:10:46.840 --> 01:10:50.439 something like a milk processing plant, is that 01:10:50.439 --> 01:10:53.279 the visual thinkers do all the mechanical equipment, 01:10:53.520 --> 01:10:56.760 but you've got to have mathematics for refrigeration. 01:10:57.779 --> 01:10:59.840 The same thing is true in a beef plant, which 01:10:59.840 --> 01:11:01.659 is the thing I've had the most experience with. 01:11:03.439 --> 01:11:05.720 And even though a construction project has nothing 01:11:05.720 --> 01:11:08.680 to do with the livestock industry, this is true. 01:11:11.770 --> 01:11:14.409 For those people who want to learn more about 01:11:14.409 --> 01:11:16.630 this or learn more about your perspective, where 01:11:16.630 --> 01:11:19.069 should we send them? My book, Visual Thinking. 01:11:19.270 --> 01:11:21.750 I've got a book called Visual Thinking. The title 01:11:21.750 --> 01:11:24.289 is Visual Thinking, The Hidden Gifts of People 01:11:24.289 --> 01:11:27.390 Who Think in Pictures, Patterns, and Abstractions. 01:11:27.430 --> 01:11:30.430 Visual Thinking, The Hidden Gifts of People Who 01:11:30.430 --> 01:11:32.430 Think in Pictures, Patterns, and Abstractions. 01:11:32.630 --> 01:11:35.710 And that was my big, gigantic COVID project. 01:11:36.369 --> 01:11:39.829 Okay. And what I found were the different kinds 01:11:39.829 --> 01:11:42.539 of minds there. I would do the rough drafts, 01:11:42.539 --> 01:11:45.020 kind of disorganizing. Betsy, my verbal co -author, 01:11:45.140 --> 01:11:47.859 she smoothed them all out. So that's different 01:11:47.859 --> 01:11:50.319 minds working together, cooperating together, 01:11:50.539 --> 01:11:52.979 and taking advantage of the different kinds of 01:11:52.979 --> 01:11:55.579 thinking. Okay. And you think that would apply 01:11:55.579 --> 01:11:57.680 well for dairy farmers as well? Oh, it would 01:11:57.680 --> 01:11:59.439 apply to anything. This applies to anything. 01:11:59.680 --> 01:12:03.180 It applies to any field. That's a wrap on today's 01:12:03.180 --> 01:12:05.600 deep dive into Dr. Temple Grandin's revolutionary 01:12:05.600 --> 01:12:08.600 work and her critical message for dairy farmers. 01:12:09.260 --> 01:12:11.539 From her early days observing cattle stopping 01:12:11.539 --> 01:12:14.439 at shadows to her current warnings about genetic 01:12:14.439 --> 01:12:17.239 extremism, her journey reminds us that the most 01:12:17.239 --> 01:12:19.659 valuable insights often come from seeing the 01:12:19.659 --> 01:12:22.739 world differently. The key takeaways for your 01:12:22.739 --> 01:12:26.239 operation? Start measuring what matters. Laminase 01:12:26.239 --> 01:12:28.899 rates, handling stress, and genetic balance. 01:12:29.359 --> 01:12:32.220 Remember, gentle handling can boost milk production 01:12:32.220 --> 01:12:36.060 by up to 13%, while every lame cow costs you 01:12:36.060 --> 01:12:39.649 800 pounds per lactation. And as Dr. Grandin 01:12:39.649 --> 01:12:42.050 warns, if you're breeding for maximum production 01:12:42.050 --> 01:12:45.289 at the expense of fertility and longevity, you 01:12:45.289 --> 01:12:47.789 might be setting yourself up for expensive problems 01:12:47.789 --> 01:12:51.430 down the road. Her upcoming AVMA Humane Award 01:12:51.430 --> 01:12:53.949 isn't just recognition for past achievements. 01:12:54.289 --> 01:12:57.329 It's a platform for an urgent message about the 01:12:57.329 --> 01:13:00.329 future of livestock genetics and welfare. The 01:13:00.329 --> 01:13:02.510 question isn't whether you can afford to implement 01:13:02.510 --> 01:13:05.329 her principles. It's whether you can afford not 01:13:05.329 --> 01:13:08.340 to. Want to dive deeper into the research and 01:13:08.340 --> 01:13:11.100 practical applications we discussed today? Visit 01:13:11.100 --> 01:13:15.079 www .thebullvine .com for the full feature article 01:13:15.079 --> 01:13:18.060 on Dr. Grandin's work, complete with implementation 01:13:18.060 --> 01:13:22.100 strategies and economic analysis. Before you 01:13:22.100 --> 01:13:25.260 go, remember that every cow in your herd is communicating 01:13:25.260 --> 01:13:28.239 through her behavior, her movement, and her performance. 01:13:28.739 --> 01:13:32.380 The question is, are you listening? Thanks for 01:13:32.380 --> 01:13:35.539 joining us on The Bullvine Podcast. Until next 01:13:35.539 --> 01:13:38.319 time, keep pushing the boundaries of what's possible 01:13:38.319 --> 01:13:41.300 in dairy farming. But remember, sometimes the 01:13:41.300 --> 01:13:43.699 biggest breakthroughs come from simply seeing 01:13:43.699 --> 01:13:46.079 through your animal's eyes. This has been the 01:13:46.079 --> 01:13:48.920 Bullvine Podcast, where genetics meet management 01:13:48.920 --> 01:13:52.479 and innovation meets implementation. We'll see 01:13:52.479 --> 01:13:52.939 you next time.