Welcome to Botch's Off -Road Podcast. Today it's
just me. I'm Alex, for anyone who doesn't know.
I guess technically it's not just me. Today I
am recording the intro for an interview that
I did last week with Tom Craig, the president
of Great Lakes Four -Wheel Drive Association.
It's a fantastic interview. Tom's an awesome
guy. He gave me a lot of information, taught
me a lot about how Michigan works. And I am really
excited for you guys to listen to this. I will
slip in on Friday. You're going to hear a rap
about our third gen weekend. I'm editing this
on Sunday. So I just got back from third gen
weekend. It was a great time. So you will hear
all about it on Friday. I think we're having
the other two guys that were on. So it should
be me, Mark, Gavin. Duncan, and Shane all on
one podcast. It's going to be crazy. It's going
to be hard to follow along with, but it'll be
great, and you'll hear all about our third gen
weekend where we had a great time. So not to
overshadow the interview with Tom Craig, I will
jump right back to past Alex, and he will get
it going. So I hope you have a great day. Hey,
this is Alex. Today is a little bit different
of an episode. We got Tom and I'm sorry, I forgot
the other guy's name. Craig? Yep. Perfect. I
was dead on. We got Tom and Craig from the Great
Lakes Four -Wheel Drive Association. They're
big in Michigan. I'm sure they're big around
Great Lakes altogether. i'll kind of give them
a floor i kind of want them to be able to tell
you you know what great lakes four -wheel drive
association is what they stand for um you know
all the important things that come out of that
so i'll uh kind of hand it over to tom and let
him talk a little bit there so tom how you doing
good thanks alex uh yeah uh my name is tom craig
president of great lakes four -wheel drive association
um and what great lakes four -wheel drive association
is um and we it's it was first incorporated in
1969 uh so we're working on um 56 years of being
the um voice and advocate for full -sized four
-wheel drive off -road vehicle use in uh in the
great lakes area um originally i believe you
know it was more widespread and you know included
a lot of members from from other states um primarily
our membership comes from michigan um we're all
based in michigan but we do have quite a a large
number of uh members from the ohio area specifically
uh northwest ohio um and we do have some you
know from indiana and uh i believe we have one
from ontario uh wow that's pretty cool yeah but
uh know like the great lakes has been around
you know since 1969 and you know uh we have always
um been the you know the the group fighting for
um access and keeping trails open uh you know
the the the state would uh would prefer not to
have any uh you know off -road vehicles roaming
around the woods and you know great lakes was
involved with you know the creation of the the
orv system as we know it way back in the day
um and you know we continue to this day you know
fighting to uh keep access available for everyone.
And, you know, we're not only fighting for the
full -size four -wheel drive vehicles. You know,
we work with the DNR on issues relating to, you
know, 50 -inch ORV trails and, you know, side
-by -side access and stuff like that. So it's,
you know... yes our primary focus is full -size
four -wheel drive vehicles um but we dabble in
you know all aspects of the orv program um you
know what the the introduction of side by sides
we've kind of all been lumped together so it's
kind of i guess it'd be important to kind of
grow to the point where you're looking after
them as well yeah and and and we're we're trying
to figure out how to incorporate them into our
organization it's it's a little difficult you
know with um you know the the events that we
have uh historically done you know it it requires
you know a plate you know a license plate so
it's you know it's it's it's a little tough um
but The side -by -side faction of the ORV community
certainly needs some organization. For sure.
Yeah, thinking back, I mean, now at least I'm
from New Ago County. uh to put that out there
but okay at least around here side by sides can
ride most of our roads they just can't ride like
m37 and stuff right so but i know down farther
pretty much south of us that's completely different
and no way goes up by the silver lake correct
about 40 minutes from silver lake okay we're
we're a little bit more east than what silver
lake is obviously okay Okay. Gotcha. And then,
um, you know, not to leave Craig out of the conversation.
He, uh, uh, Craig is kind of our, our, um, Swiss
army knife of board members. Um, pretty much
whatever, whatever needs to be done, you know,
Craig usually raises his hand and, uh, takes
on the challenge. Um, He wears many hats. Tell
us about you, Craig. Like Tom said, I'm Craig
Finkelman, and I came on board with Great Lakes,
I don't know, what, two, two and a half years
ago? Maybe. I would like that. After coming out
of the club scene, and I'd see what I got. I
got a bit of an education on the ORV program.
uh the state of michigan as i started getting
involved in more and more things and uh being
a a jeep person now the uh it was natural for
me and um i'm i'm really happy under tom's leadership
and the other board members as well to be involved
in in what we're doing and i guess if you don't
mind tom i'd like to build on some things that
you said that green lakes has been around for
uh since 69 like tom said but we are not a club
we are association we uh right we we our mission
has evolved into supporting club and that the
club scene has really grown uh for side by sides
for uh a full -size vehicle jeeps broncos toyota
uh my gosh all kinds of overland vehicles and
things like that the dirt bikes the atv and everything
we focus on representing them in uh when it comes
to things like the legislature and uh and with
the dnr and that the uh we we are very all in
things like what's called the MMRC, Michigan
Motorized Recreational, I say coalition, but
it's council. And other things like that to have
the voices of the off -road community heard as
a user group. And also bearing in mind the voices
of other user groups outside of the off -road
community. Because we utilize, as the off -road
community, we utilize shared public lands, state
and national forests. And that's where our niche
is at, really. And I don't want to take anything
away from Tom because he has devoted a lot of
time, of his personal time, investigating. getting
intimate with a lot of things in order to be
a very effective voice for the off -road community
um we we do do some events we do our winter blast
we do a uh two member meetings a year we do a
toys for tots charity thing at uh rocks and valleys
off -road art there in harrison michigan in december
and uh and then we We try and have a presence
at other things and evolving more and more to
having a presence to support the clubs and things
like that, educate as much as possible about
the ORB program, about responsible wheeling and
stewardship. For example, this weekend, a number
of us are showing up in St. Helen to support
a club event for a cleanup of the state for it.
Over in the St. Helen, Ogema, Roscom, and Houghton
Lake area, we probably will get as far away as
even Road City, maybe Gladwin, as we do that.
And that's more our goal. We also do our own
adopt -a -forest cleanup. This year, it'll be
in the fall. Don't remember the exact dates off
the top of my head. Actually, I'm not even sure
if we've nailed down an exact date, but somewhere
the middle of September. Well, from the 13th.
That's it. There you go. But, you know, like
Craig was saying, the cleanup in St. Helen, I
mean, it's no small event. I mean, you know.
you guys over the years you know have they've
cleaned up just an obscene amount of trash and
and stuff from the the woods you know and it's
it's not you know it's not on the the trails
per se it's on the right the forest roads county
roads you know everywhere in between I remember
when I was a kid, my family, we're an equine
family, so, you know, we ride horses all the
time. Yeah. And we'd be going through trails,
you know, Manistee National Forest, all the way
up to Pigeon River, and they would just be absolutely
filled with trash. Oh, yeah. And I'd say in the
last probably 10 years, Michigan as a whole,
everyone's just stepped up and really done a
lot of cleanups, and the state's looking good.
And it is? um but if you want to you know kind
of um destroy that uh that thought that you have
the dnr has a an interactive map of sites and
it it's it just enrages me when i you know see
all of the all the little red dots all over the
state of you know and and and those are just
dumb sites that are logged into the system and
i've i've kind of noticed um i was going through
it i think it was last week and their dump site
map will be a dump site will say it's active
but it was recorded five years ago or 10 years
ago well and that's that's the thing it it may
be recorded but there hasn't been a volunteer
group that has right gone out and and cleaned
it up you know the the dnr you know they you
know just like any other you know government
entity you know they they work on limited resources
and you know they don't have crews that go out
and clean up the uh the forests you know that's
where organizations like great lakes and you
know wicked jeeps and you know there's um sundowners
they do one down in um like the alleghen forest
area drummond island or b club drummond island
does one too you know but it's it's volunteer
groups that organize this stuff and and work
with the dnr you know there there's um uh a lady
um that she one of her one of her many jobs is
coordinating the adopt a forest program and um
you know there there there's grant money that
they're that they get i'm not not quite sure
the the avenues in which they get the grant money
but they usually cover the cost of the dumpsters
um okay and like like last last year uh last
april we had the great lakes did our cleanup
over um in the cadillac area and we we filled
Was it three or four dumpsters, Craig? Three
dumpsters, two of them. Three dumpsters. They're
at Coyote Crossing and then one at the DNR office
in the area. And then on top of that, we filled
a, on how long is Adam's trailer, 38 foot long,
gooseneck, full stack, at least six foot high,
full of tires and scrap metal. Jesus. And, and.
On the same days over in St. Helen, Wicked Jeeps
filled another three dumpsters. You know, so
it's, you know, yeah. Three semi -loads full
of tires. Yeah. Yeah, you know, we can make a
dent, but, you know, the biggest thing is it
takes volunteers. You know, there is never a
shortage of... dump sites to send people out
to we usually end up with you know a shortage
of volunteers that we can't can't get to as many
as as we would like and that's you know that's
that's that's one of the one of the biggest things
about great lakes that you know most people i
i don't i don't know that everyone fully understands
it but great lakes four -wheel drive association
is 100 percent volunteer run and operated and
without other you know other members you know
stepping up and volunteering we can't exist um
right you know there's there are some some other
organizations uh in the state where they actually
have a paid on staff you know director of their
organization Great Lakes is not like that. All,
you know, our membership dues go to, you know,
funding, you know, either, you know, retaining
attorneys or paying lobbyists or, you know, and
as of late, we haven't even been, you know, people
that have been going to to lansing to meetings
and all that they haven't been asking for reimbursement
for their expenses you know it's been you know
100 volunteered um but like i said all of our
all of our membership dues and you know our fundraising
goes to one way or another um continuing the
the the fight and the mission of keeping trails
open and and being good stewards of the off -road
community and and and of the of the off -road
trails and of you know the the the forests that
we that we play in you know if we're not good
stewards we're gonna lose it and that's we've
been we've been seeing it already oh yeah yeah
well and that that's the thing you know i've
i'm i'm 52 And, you know, I've been in the off
-road world since I was nine years old, riding
dirt bikes. And, you know, there's so many new
users out there, whether it's side -by -sides,
Jeeps, Toyotas, Broncos, whatever. They only
know the off -road world in Michigan the way
it is now, where everything is open. You know,
growing up, It was closed unless posted open.
Right. You had very, very limited writing opportunities,
and now everything's open. But if we don't take
care of it, there's a good chance that it goes
right back to being closed unless posted open.
And unfortunately, too many people don't understand
that and take a stance of, oh, no, you know,
they can't close it down. Baloney. They certainly
can close it down. Or they'll just remove it.
Yeah. The public act that Great Lakes was a part
of, other... groups as well happened in 1994
developed the orv program it does have a clause
in there that the director of the dnr pretty
much at will can close any or all for any without
reason just by making an executive uh order yeah
yeah that that clause sucks yeah but you know
in in general One good thing that is really bolstering
our relationships with not only the DNR, but
legislators and all the way up to the governor's
office, is the fact that the ORV community brings
in just an obscene amount of money into the state
and yeah i mean well in excess of any other motorized
recreation in the state the study from 2021 from
michigan state brought it in it and mind you
that was coven time frame it was 8 .19 jesus
yeah so you know having that in our back pocket
certainly um helps in you know discussions with
the dnr regarding you know uh increased riding
opportunities um you know the there's within
the trails division of the parks and rec department
which they're they're the ones that administer
the orv program um there's a there's a good group
of people um running that that part of the uh
the parks and recs department um and they they
understand the uh uh the passion that groups
like ours have and the the the the dedication
to you know um being good stewards. Um, and they're,
they, because of that, they're, they are willing
to, um, you know, work with us, um, a lot more,
um, and be, be a lot more open, um, than in,
in years past, you know, I've, I've been involved
with, uh, you know, the The DNR has the ORV Advisory
Workgroup, or years ago it was the ORV Advisory
Board. God, they won't get back to me. I applied
for it. Well, they are in process. I applied
for it. Craig's applied for it. But I've been
involved with that off and on since 2000. Years
ago, they were a lot less willing to work with
organizations. And years ago, the off -road the
bigger off -road groups in the state, were kind
of enemies of one another, we'll say. But in
recent years, interestingly enough, the thing
that brought us all together really was the push
by the snowmobile group to ban wheeled vehicles
in the winter. And it really brought the ORV
community together. And that's when we formed
the Michigan Motorized Recreation Council. You
know, we have representatives from, you know,
the full -sized ORV community, the side -by -side
community, the ATV community, the dirt bike community,
law enforcement. um you know it's a it's a really
um broad uh group of of people that you know
have kind of joined together and and you know
we realize that we're all we're all fighting
the same fight you know and it's it's been an
opportunity for us to come together as one voice
to to the dnr um and The DNR has certainly been
receptive to that. Well, now that we got that
out of the way, we should move on to a little
more fun topic. Yeah, sure. I mean, that's fun.
You just taught me a lot that I had no idea was
going on in the state. So this is one of those
episodes I'll look back on and probably find
more stuff that I missed while we were talking.
well and if i could add one more thing you know
something else that yeah no go ahead the general
public or a a large amount of the general public
doesn't quite understand is the trails and routes
and stuff the dnr the dnr doesn't do any of the
maintenance or work or development of those trails
That's all done by the volunteer clubs, organizations
like ours. You know, there's, you know, like
over in Lake County, it's the Irons Area Tourist
Association that takes care of all that. And
it's all volunteer labor. You know, yes, the
organizations get reimbursed. you know x amount
per mile um and you know most of the organizations
in turn you know give a portion of that money
you know to reimburse the the volunteers for
their their expenses you know and we're using
our own vehicles and our own gas and you know
you know in most cases our own chainsaws and
whatnot um but all of these trails wouldn't exist
if it wasn't for volunteers getting out there
and doing it and you know um you know and it
it kind of it bugs me now and then when when
people complain oh the state needs to make this
trail better all this well no you need to get
off your butt get out there find who what club
maintains that trail that you have an issue with
and get out there and volunteer with them that's
the do we have Do we have like an Adopt -A -Trail
or is it just the Adopt -A -Forest program? No,
so the way that the trails and routes work is
we, like Great Lakes, we maintain, is it about
200 miles, Craig? I think it's in total 498 or
something like that. Oh, okay. Every year, I
think it's actually due like the 1st of May.
So it's, um, JR's working on it. Uh, JR Osborne's
our trail maintenance, uh, director. Um, but
we, we put in a grant request, um, every year
and, and all the, all of the other clubs and
organizations do as well. And, you know, that,
you know, we, we're going to maintain, you know,
for us we don't do any grading of routes we do
the the signage and brushing you know keeping
the trick of them trimmed back so we apply for
that those miles and then you know we get you
know issued that that grant for um doing that
that maintenance so it's not it's not like a
adopt a trail type of thing it's actually you
know applying for the grants to to do that and
the orv the orv program um you know the funding
of it is it's a hundred percent user funded there's
not a not a single penny of taxpayer money that
goes into it it's a hundred percent user funded
uh by uh orv stickers and trail permits um and
then you know there's a 50 goes to trail maintenance
and development another percentage goes to uh
damage restoration another percentage goes to
law enforcement um another i i can never remember
all of the pieces of pie but it's it's um the
education and training administration fee administration
part of it is actually a relatively small percentage
yeah but and and and you know if if someone is
trying to find out who uh what what organization
maintains a certain trail or route um on the
dnr's website on their interactive map of um
the the orv system you can click on whatever
router trail you're interested in and a pop -up
window will come come up and you can you know
there's usually like three or four pages to a
the pop -up window but you can arrow over and
it'll tell you what organization maintains that
trail so from there then you can contact them
and say hey i want to help out with you know
such and such a trail and um you know most most
organizations require you to be a member to um
participate in the in the trail maintenance stuff
and it's it's primarily an insurance aspect of
it but um but yeah it if if someone wants to
get out and help there you know you can look
at that map and you know it's not gonna you know
jump right out yeah you gotta you gotta dig a
little bit you know the dnr doesn't make anything
easy as far as finding information but um no
they don't know but i think i just found that
map though which is what i was really interested
in um and frankly if if anyone has a question
of you know you know i i want to help with you
know xyz trail They can feel free to send me
an email, president at GLFWDA .org, and most
likely I've got the contact of whomever maintains
a trail, and we can get them in contact with
them. Facebook Messenger on our Facebook page
is another good way to go to contact us quick.
And actually being on the ORV advisory work group
subcommittee for that, I just recently acquired
all the grant sponsors' names and contact information.
So we do have it available. Yeah, because I did
not know that they had that, but now I'm on the
website and I can see it says who maintains it,
which is really cool. Yeah, so I was, I can't
remember if it was you or if it was posted to
the Facebook group, but you posted something
about how the ORV, how the permits work and how
the DNR doesn't actually put any money towards
trails. I had no idea about that, so that was
really interesting. Yeah, and that's, you know.
That's the unique aspect of our sport is we're
100 % user -funded. And there's no burden on
the taxpayers for our recreation. Yeah, that's
really cool. On to a fun topic. Tom, what is
your rig? Well, I guess it depends on the day
and the weather. That's a good answer. So, like
I said, I started off, you know, when I was nine
years old, riding dirt bikes. And then in the
early 2000s, I got into... four -wheelers now
i had i had i had had um jeeps prior to that
um i actually i got i got my first jeep um oh
about a month after i graduated high school in
1991 and since then i've only gone i've gone
one year without owning a jeep um and Like I
said, I got into quads for a while, and actually
I still ride quads. My wife and kids and I, we
ride up in the Higgins Lake Grailing area quite
frequently. Okay. Just not right now. Well, no,
I just haven't gotten out yet this year. Isn't
that, uh, that's one of the spots affected by
the ice storms, right? No, um, north of Grayling
it's affected. Uh, okay. Okay. Yeah. We're, we're,
we're, we have a, we have a cottage, uh, near,
uh, the west side of Higgins Lake and it, it,
there's no, no damage from the storm there at
all. But yeah, so I still have, we've got four
quads, and then I've got a 2024 Wrangler. Actually,
I've got a 25 sitting at the lot. I just have
to get the time to actually go and... pick it
up but um then i've got a uh 1965 cj6 that's
nice just uh it's a lawn ornament at this point
in time um but eventually it'll be a a trail
rig of some sort and then my main off -road vehicle
is, uh, I've got a 2005 LJ. Um, it's, uh, that's
a, a mild build. Um, you know, I've, I've got,
uh, I don't even know how much lift because it's
a, it's a Frankenstein, you know, suspension
system that I've built myself. Um, but air lockers
35s uh winch um you know all the you know standard
stuff you know yeah it's running 35s and that's
you know 35s nowadays are like the the 31s of
years years past but yeah you know i the way
i look at it is there there's nothing in michigan
that has uh challenged me to the point that i
need something more than 35s And, you know, my
opinion is, you know, all these guys running
around on 40s, you know, they don't have to rely
on talent to get over stuff as much as people
with lesser tires. I did all of Moab on 31s back
in 2017. Yeah. I, I did, you know, granted this
was years ago, but I did all of Drummond Island
on, uh, 30 inch, 30 by nine and a halves. And
wow. You know, it, nothing, there was, there
was nothing I couldn't, couldn't do. You know,
granted Drummond wasn't as rutted out as much
as it is now, but you know, um, But, yeah, 35s
are, you know, I think the right size for Michigan.
I agree. I'll be going 35s probably right after,
probably July or August, I'll be going to 35s.
My 33s are pretty well on their way out. Yeah.
You're I was stalking you just before we got
on your LJ sick. Oh, thanks. Thanks. It's a,
you know, it, it, it looks great in pictures
from, you know, you know, 20 feet. Um, it's,
uh, you know, it's, it's been abused. Um, you
know, it, uh, you know, it, it was a really,
really pretty Jeep and, you know, the unfortunate
thing is, you know, trees and brush take a, take
a toll on it. And, and, you know, uh, the, uh,
heck the fact that, you know, the last couple
of years, the vast majority of my wheeling has
been in the winter. So between brush and salt
and everything, it's, you know, it's not as pretty
as it was, you know, a few years back, but, uh,
Every once in a while, I get the right light
for a picture, and it looks pretty decent. Yeah,
I've got a yellow 2000 TJ that's all tore apart
in my pole barn right now. Oh, there you go.
Right now, I do the Toyota thing. I made a hard
change from Jeeps to Toyotas. There's nothing
wrong with Toyotas. They are truly amazing. sometimes
what they can do. It's just incredible. I've
been very surprised by this little 98 4Runner
I've got. It does things that I don't even expect
out of an XJ, let alone an IFS rig. Yeah. But
yeah, so my TJ, the last work I had done on it
was in 2018. I sent it to Jeep Armory, and they
rebuilt the frame. Okay. That's how long it's
been since I've touched it. Yeah. But, I mean,
I loved my Jeep. I did all of Moab. I did a lot
of wheeling in Arizona. I mean, it just kept
going until it decided it couldn't go anymore
and threw a cylinder through a wall. Yeah. Are
you one of those guys that blew up a four -liter?
Uh, no, mine was a two point squirrel. Okay.
All right. Cause I, I always, it always amazes
me how, you know, people can blow up a, a four
liter I've over the years. I think I've, I've
put well over a million miles on four liters
throughout, throughout all of, all of them that
I've had. Uh, uh, I just, I don't understand
it. I don't, I don't understand how, how someone
can, can blow up a four liter. Um, I mean, I
had the, the, my highest mileage one was, um,
uh, 289 ,000 miles. And, you know, it, it didn't
burn any oil at, you know, almost 300 ,000 miles.
Well, I don't know. Yeah, my two -point squirrel
at like 120 ,000 was burning oil. And then I
decided it needed some more power and put a turbo
on it. Well, yeah, that'll do it. That lasted
about 20 ,000 miles. Yeah. No one buys a Jeep
because, you know, they're powerful. Yeah. I
just, if I had a 4 .0, I would have been fine.
Just crawling some of the, I was stationed in
Arizona, so I went from a Jeep built for Michigan
to wheeling, you know, rocks and crawling in
Arizona. Yeah. And it just needed that little
bit more. Yeah. So were you, in Arizona, were
you in Yuma? No, I was down by Sierra Vista,
down by the border. Ah, okay. Gotcha. Fort Huachuca.
Oh. Is that Air Force or? Army. Oh, Army. Okay.
Gotcha. Like I said, I used to spend a lot of
time out in Arizona for work. And with the Yuma
Proving Grounds out there. But I'd never heard
of. that that military base that uh that you
were at but but i most of my time was in in the
phoenix phoenix area and then uh kingman and
uh lake havasu area i know i think population
density wise fort wachuk is the smallest post
in the army so it's there's a lot of land with
a very few people at it gotcha okay Cool. Lots
of rock crawling. Yeah. Lots and lots of it.
Yep. Yeah. My one and only off -roading experience
in Arizona, for work we did some off -road testing
in the Parker area. And there's some really cool
off -road trails around there. and up by kingman
there's a there's a bunch of um really cool stuff
up there too but yeah i oh man you're talking
like parker canyon area uh right yeah the parker
like right right along the um the the river there
you go yeah uh what would that be east there's
there's a the desert bar uh is in that area i
can't can't remember what they the the recreation
area there but it's it there's all sorts of little
canyons and um you know they they the canyons
might only be you know 15 feet deep but you know
you're you're wheeling in these little slot canyons
and it's it's pretty cool stuff but yeah I think
last I heard, they'd shut the bar down. I don't
know if it's still. Yeah, I don't know. They
open, they close. I never actually got to go
there, but yeah. It was a good time. When I went,
the trail was pretty tore up because it was right
after monsoon season. Ah. But I hear that it's
not too bad for even a two -wheel drive rig most
of the year. Yeah. Yeah. But, all right. It's
been really good talking to you guys. You taught
me a lot. I've actually got questions that I'm
going to have to put together and reach out about
now. Well, did you want me to touch on the situation
on Drummond Island as well? You know, that is
up to you. Personally, I'd love to hear about
it, but I know it's a touchy subject to a lot
of people. I think the more information we can
get out there, the less touchy it will be. I
agree. The short story is the work that was done
out there. Yeah, it's unfortunate. But ultimately
on Marblehead, we didn't lose any experience,
we'll say. So before this happened, and some
people may not be 100 % familiar with the steps
at Marblehead. but there's a clump of trees and
prior to this everything north of the clump of
trees that the the bypass as they were calling
it that was illegal right um it was only everything
from the trees south well they they smoothed
out the the the easy line on the far south end
of the the steps and Through Discussions I had
with with various people in in the DNR They made
the concession that All of the Existing bypasses
so everything north of the trees now is legal
so yes they smoothed out a small section to the
south but we gained the legal access to everything
to the north but they also took out the whole
trail to get there well the so the and and uh
i'm i'm getting to that So it's a very complicated,
convoluted story. So all of that land, basically
the southeast end of Drummond Island, all of
that land was originally purchased with... what
is called state game fund money so what the state
game fund is is a uh a fund set up that is funded
by fishing and hunting licenses and the reason
that the state that set up is it is a federal
requirement that the state has that state game
fund to be able to get federal Pittman -Robertson
Act funds. The state has to have a restricted
use fund that is solely for fish and wildlife
uh uh conservation whatever and that that's what
the state game fund is so it's it's there's been
a lot of mis uh miscommunication about you know
that the land out there is pitman robertson act
money or pitman robertson act funded land it's
not But it's funded by the State Game Fund, which
has to be managed and treated as if it was Pittman
-Robertson Act money. I know that's probably
clear as mud. Yeah. So what it comes down to
is all of that land out there that the trails
lie on was purchased with restricted funds. And
by the letter of the law, the primary use of
that land has to be for the betterment of fish
and wildlife. They, so they're, they're years
ago and I can't remember the date. It might've
been 2015. The last time that the feds had been
out to do a, an audit, so to speak. Um, and they
noted, you know, 10 years ago, um, issues with,
um, excessively rutted trails um braided trails
so bypasses and bypasses of bypasses and all
that um so if if the feds deem and they and they
did note that it it was obvious that the primary
use of that land was not for fish and wildlife
it was for off -road vehicle usage um so the
um the state has done you know their own internal
audits um and that that would be the the um wildlife
division has done their own audits and in in
anticipation of the federal audit, which will
come in 2027. But, you know, they want to kind
of nip it in the bud before the federal audit.
Because, you know, if the state loses Pittman
-Robertson Act funding, that's, you know, millions
and millions of dollars of wildlife management
funding funding that the state would lose um
right so the the the thing that that the the
wildlife division in the dnr is there they understand
that you know the the orv trails have been there
for decades they're major part of the economy
of the island and they don't right uh you know
my my latest conversation with the the deputy
director or deputy chief of the wildlife division
is they have they have no intentions that they
of closing down the the trails they want to work
with all of the other divisions to And stakeholders
like Great Lakes, like Drummond Island Off -Road
Club, like Jeep Jamboree, they want to work together
to come up with a solution. What that solution
is, we don't know yet. So the DNR has like an
internal committee, we'll say, of... People from
the various different divisions that are working
on coming up with some sort of equitable solution
for all parties. Um, and like I said, it's, it's
in the very early stages. Um, but you know, the,
the one, one of the biggest things and the DNR
is they're, they're kind of sticklers about this
for. whatever reason i don't know um but there's
a there's a regulation that state forest roads
have to be passable by conventional two -wheel
drive pickup truck um and that was that was one
of the the the reasons that the um the they called
it the the mini steps on the the trail leading
out to marblehead that um because that i i was
i was on there out there not last year the year
before and those mini steps in my opinion were
more of a challenge than marblehead themselves
um and that i agree it had never been like that
i years back i had driven all the way to marblehead
in two -wheel drive and um you know that that
was with my uh my zj on 32s i drove all the way
to marblehead in two -wheel drive that those
mini steps have gotten worn away worn more and
more and more uh because of increased use to
the point that they weren't passable by a two
-wheel drive vehicle so for for a number of reasons
you know um maintenance for um uh emergency vehicle
access that that that was why they smooth that
out and you know and talking with um people that
you know have spent their whole life wheeling
that island they said you know give it you know
three to five years and it'll be a challenge
again that's it's limestone that's just how it
works um right you know they they the drummond
island off -road club um and that the thing with
all of this is you know the drummond island off
-road club took the brunt of the beating from
the public for this they they did not have any
involvement in any of the stuff that was done
out on the island that was a hundred percent
a dnr project um i I've kind of gathered that
I've sat through a few of their meetings now
and definitely they don't, I mean, they seem
just as blindsided as everyone else was. Yeah.
So, um, but they, you know, in, in talking with
the people that were out there doing, you know,
that did the work, you know, the, the attempt
was made to, you know, try to, you know, create
a, uh, an easy bypass over the, the, the mini
steps. Um, but there's a, there's basically a
limestone ridge that runs for like a half mile.
So there, there was nowhere that they could bypass
that. Um, so yeah, unfortunately that was, that
was taken out. Um, but, um, it. The increased
use, you know, has really taken a toll on the
trails on the island. You know, the ruts are
getting deeper. Ledges are getting steeper. And
the ledges, that's not really where the issue
lies. The ruts are where the issues really lie.
especially out at uh tank traps um yeah paint
traps I so it had been probably six seven years
since I had been out to tank traps and I was
just appalled by just what a cluster it has turned
into um and that's that area is a huge sticking
point for the wildlife division and for the um
the feds um because I mean it's it is flat out
turned into a scramble area um and it's bad and
and that's that's one of the ideas floating around
is okay well if we you know that however many
acres that may might be 40 50 acres uh whatever
that the orv fund you know purchases that basically
from the the the wildlife division and designates
it as a scramble area that's that's one of the
ideas um others is you know there's there's some
holes there that i mean just from a safety standpoint
they need to be filled i i and people will chastise
me for saying that they need to be filled i was
out there in august when it was dry and standing
in the bottom of these holes and they're eight
feet deep i'm sorry someone someone out there
on a quad which i've ridden the island on a quad
they roll into a water hole like that their their
machine's gone i mean i i sent you I sent you
a video from Instagram from my forerunner being
underwater out of the tank traps. I mean, it
gets deep out there. Yeah, in the spring, I mean,
everywhere on the island. I've sank my ZJ out
there on the North Fork. And, yeah, I mean, it's
five foot deep in the spring. but yeah i mean
they're like i said there's a lot of a lot of
places that are just they've been left to fester
into what they are now um you know uh and the
you know the dnr will or at least the the trail
specialist for that area you know he will you
know admit that you know over the years there
hasn't been uh enough of an an eye on the island
by the dnr um that that's going to change um
you know another another thing that's a big sticking
point is the um driving on the beaches now there
there there is only one place one place in the
entire state of michigan where it is legal to
ride on the beach and that is southeast beach
over out by uh plywood camp on drummond island
where the trail comes out and you know and there's
kind of like a wetland area it comes around that
comes out onto the beach for about 200 yards
and back into the woods right by plywood camp
that is the only place that it's legal to ride
on the beach in the state of michigan um unfortunately
glen cove pilot cove shale beach people are driving
out there people are you know driving into the
water i mean heck even at at southeast beach
people are driving out into the water and getting
pictures because oh it looks cool well yeah you
post that up on on instagram or facebook and
the dnr sees it and the dnr has tracked people
down because of uh photos like that like some
years ago people drove into the water at fossil
ledges and how did they even get down there i'm
i'm not 100 sure but they did it people jesus
and and the off -road community really banded
together to track down who it was and the dnr
caught him and they smacked them with some major
major fines um good but you know the the the
the beach is like again that's one of the big
sticking points with the the wildlife division
um you know and they they've been blocked off
with big boulders but people you know take that
as a challenge oh i can winch that that rock
out of the way and i can get get out on the beach
you know oh what harm is it doing i'm just you
know it's just one person out well that one person
turns into ten turns into a hundred turns into
a thousand and you know then we lose access um
so yeah i guess you know my my my short little
story about drummond a little uh a little long
-winded but you know craig can attest that uh
i'm i'm known for being long -winded there's
there's no one better to know what's going on
than you guys i mean you've you've done most
of the footwork here in michigan anyway so yeah
so well we're we've we've built good relationships
out you know out of the the you know negative
of the work that was done out on drummond out
of that has come a a good working relationship
with the dnr for that area um and a you know
an improved relationship with uh drummond island
off -road club i mean great lakes has always
had um strong ties to drummond island off -road
club but you know it everyone kind of drifted
apart for a while and you know and now we're
we're kind of coming back and you know and it's
you know and they from what i've gathered the
Drummond Island Off -Road Club of today is not
the Drummond Island Off -Road Club of 10 years
ago. No, it is not. So the founding members,
one being Steve Walker, Steve's really gotten
up there in age, and he's not involved much at
all in the off -road world. But after he and
some of the original members kind of drifted
away, the Drummond Island Tourist Association
took over as the grant sponsor. So technically,
Drummond Island Off -Road, I think they're calling
it Drummond Island Off -Road Corporation, the
drummond island tourist association so they're
they are the ones doing you know applying for
the the maintenance grants for the uh the trail
system both 50 inch trail and uh orv route um
so yes it it's it it is not the same off -road
club that it was um and it Um, um, I'm, I'm optimistic
that it's going to be a positive thing. Um, the
way that, that things are structured now, um,
but you know, we, everything remains to be seen.
So. Right. Yeah. I mean, I do appreciate you
touching on that again. You guys have so much
more insight on that stuff than I do. I've been
learning a lot over the last year about how things
work here in Michigan, but there's a lot of stuff
that's changing every day, so it's hard to keep
up with. But it's been good talking to you guys.
That puts us just over my hour. So if you have
anything else to say, I guess now's the time
to do it. I've blabbered on, you know, what...
Craig, I'm sure, can add some insight here. I
appreciate you giving us the opportunity and
hopefully getting some of the word out there
on what's going on, not only who we are, but
if you're involved in the ORV community, seek
out the local grant sponsor and clubs in the
area you like to frequent and get involved with
them. most of them are 20 25 bucks for a family
membership and it's a small price to pay for
what they do and uh you know if nothing else
you know at least get involved with a membership
and if you so inclined and able to get involved
with the trail maintenance trail development
and that and just fyi right now um great lakes
have got three proposals in for trail improvements
and expand and and new routes and then uh and
we're working on some other ones as well because
somebody that like tom said the dnr doesn't do
it it's the users that do it yep yeah if if we
want a you know a new feature or new experience
or new trail it is 100 up to the users to um
initiate that process of you know uh designing
or or uh building a trail and or getting the
approval and the funding to build it um and and
like craig said we we've got a we've got a couple
of projects in the works um you know i'm i'm
not going to not going to elaborate on them okay
because i would say any uh hints on locations
uh in we'll just say the saint helen area um
okay but uh you know it's some nbr some really
cool stuff yeah cool yeah so but it's it's the
very early stages and and and everyone's got
to understand the the dnr moves like molasses
in january um It's painful sometimes. But, yeah.
And the storm damage is probably going to cost
us a year or two, but nonetheless. Easily. There's
a great thing going on. And it bothers me that
they shut trails down rather than asking help
to clear them. Well, this is the thing. There
was the emergency order put in place. in the
in those northern counties and they're still
just trying to get normal day -to -day life back
on track the the recreation trails and i agree
with them the recreation trails right now are
you know come last you know right you know candidly
i got pictures today from some of our members
that were out scouting they're downright dangerous
there's widow makers out there that even scare
a guy like me i've been pretty sketchy situation
yeah it's it's not just you know you know some
sticks laying on the trail it's you know miles
miles of trail just completely obliterated And
like Craig said, you know, the dangers of, you
know, the trees that are hung up in other trees
and it's, they're, it would be irresponsible
to have left the trails open right now. Right.
Because, I mean, it, you know, we have a number
of ORV routes up in that area that we. uh maintain
and those are going to be challenging enough
but you know friends of ours with cycle conservation
club of michigan that maintain the bulk of the
50 inch and 24 inch motorcycle trails they i
i i honestly don't know how they're going to
do it um because i've i've i've maintained 50
inch trail before. And it's, it is slow going.
I mean, basically, basically the way that those
trails are right now, they may as well just leave
their, their dirt bikes or quads at home because
they're just gonna, they, they just have to walk
that those entire, all of those miles of trail.
And, you know, Cutting, you know, every few feet
cutting trees. And there's no place to drag that
stuff off like they normally do. They're literally
trying to muster skid steers and small tractors
with forks on them and things like that. It is
tough. Now that said, the Leota area, the Cadillac
area, the Lake County area, St. Helen, Ogema.
Those areas were not hit, and the grant sponsors
in those areas are stepping up and knowing that
they are going to see and are seeing heavier
traffic than normal. And they are, you know,
they're volunteers out there that would dedicate
a day or a day and a night a week. They're going
two and three times a week now trying to make
provisions for. you know the upcoming holiday
weekends and that knowing that north you know
further north people aren't going to be able
to utilize that even if they want to and insist
that nobody can stop them they're just not going
to be usable yep great yeah we've we've got an
event coming up in everett so i'm glad to see
that they weren't hit and we got an effect coming
up in cadillac so i'm glad they were hit yeah
no i i was just in the uh you know um West of
Higgins Lake, there's the West Higgins Lake ORV
route and West Higgins Lake ORV trail. And from
what I can tell, there's very, very minimal damage.
I don't think there's anything in excess of what
your normal winter... you know tree downage um
you know there there's always on the on the 50
-inch trails there's always a little bit of you
know trees down here there every winter that's
just comes with the territory but um from what
i can tell very very minimal so um yeah pretty
much if you draw a line from grayling to mayo
and everything south of that it's 100 % clear
and people can ride no problems. North of that,
that is going to be a work in progress all summer
long, I think. Honestly, seeing some of the damage
I've seen, I could see it going into next year.
It's possible, yeah. There's some stuff that,
I mean, like you were saying, there's trails
that just don't exist anymore. Yep. Yeah, and
I need to have a call up the guys from Cycle
Conservation Club and see if they've had any,
you know, scouting reports for any of the trails
up there for, you know, for the 50 -inch side
of it. And, you know, and that's the thing, you
know. They have scouted as late as today. the
Mayo, the Atlanta, and the Indian River area.
Just before this, I was on the phone with a few
of them. Okay. And that's where Great Lakes is
going to throw our help behind some of these
other organizations. And yeah, not all of our
members have 50 -inch quads or anything like
that. But those that do, we're going to, you
know try to you know if if they're so inclined
get them in contact with you know these these
other clubs and get the get them the help that
they need because you know it's it's going to
take a lot of work and there's no other way to
put it it's pretty bad yeah so i'm looking at
the map and it's just like the whole northeastern
side of the state is just well lower peninsula
yeah it's just blanketed in closed trails yep
so yeah well all right i really appreciate you
guys coming on thank you for the opportunity
yeah i maybe in like a year we should get together
again i'd like to hear some updates for sure
you should well we'll uh so we'll have our uh
our summer membership meeting that you know anyone's
uh Welcome to it. And then in the fall, we will
have our Adopt -A -Forest. I'd love to see you
out there for that. And then Rocks and Valleys
in the first weekend in December for our Toys
for Tots drive. You'll probably see me there.
I don't know that we have the date. nailed down
just yet but uh for we do have the date nailed
down but i don't remember it it's at the end
of january we'll be doing a winter blast and
that's a winter blast in uh in west branch um
that's that's a ton of fun that is that is a
really good time well that's definitely one i
want to try and get to because that always looks
like fun yeah so all right well thank you guys
I'll catch you guys later. Take care. I hope
you enjoyed that interview. Like I said, Tom's
was an awesome interview. I had a lot of fun.
I learned a lot about off -roading in Michigan
and how it works and why we do it the way that
we do. It's pretty cool. But I hope you didn't
think you were getting out of here without getting
to listen to some value for value music because
I've got the Jetsons. uh, lined up and ready
to go for you. I will have the, uh, a link to
it so you can boost in the artist, uh, send him
his sets. You know, he, it's a great song. This
is one of my favorite value for value songs.
And I'm glad that the guys decided to vote this
one in as the winner for this week's end of episode
outro music. I don't know. I don't know what
we're going to call it yet, but all right. I
hope you guys enjoyed the interview and have
a great week. You talk about the future, but
what do you see? Is it an ocean of color growing
exponentially? What keeps me up through the nighttime?
Keeps me dreaming through the day? Is that the
goddess of wisdom is only a block away? I wanna
fly by the number